Testing: It’s Your Turn to Guide the Discussion

“If people are going to judge me without fully understanding the content of my character, then their opinion just isn’t worth it.”  Jazz Jennings


Last week, a long-time reader suggested that I might try this out for times I am either stressed or when the news cycle has slowed. The news cycle is currently hopping, and I am not stressed, but I have thought about this all week and decided to give it a whirl. It may or may not work, and I am fine either way.

What not to talk about or say:

  • Avoid politics unless the discussion centers around Christian nationalism, an important subject.
  • Do not be offensive. No name calling.
  • Try as hard as possible to be kind.

Some examples of topics as a reference, but these do not have to be discussed.

  • Can one have a fulfilling Christian life outside the church?
  • What are two things you wish they would not say in church?
  • What is the one Bible verse that is most misused?
  • Why are denominations necessary?
  • If Jesus were to return and visit America, California, Florida, Illinois, etc., what might he protest?
  • What are two things you disagree with in Calvinism?
  • What are two things you disagree with in Arminianism?
  • Could a diehard Calvinist and a diehard Arminian ever get married?
  • Will Saddleback be readmitted to the SBC?
  • What will happen with the Sex Abuse Task Force in the SBC?
  • If sentient life is discovered on other planets, will they have experienced the Fall? If so, did Jesus’ sacrifice on Earth cover them as well?

This may or may not work. If it does, it will make a regular appearance. If not, well, it was worth a try.

Blessings to all!

Comments

Testing: It’s Your Turn to Guide the Discussion — 166 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    My Christian life has definitely been more fulfilling outside the church.


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    Misused Bible verses. So many. I can’t name just one.

    Off the top of my head, Ephesians 5:22 (and cherry picked ones like it) and Hebrews 12:15.

    The first is self-explanatory.
    The second is about the root of bitterness and using against people who are tired of being used, abused, lied to, and dismissed.


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    For many who have faced abuse in church, their only hope to maintain health and wholeness is to stay away. I say that from first-hand experience.

    And the church is clever about its marketing, telling people that Christianity is all about community. But that ignores the early ascetics.

    My observation also is that many in the church instinctively want folks in this situation to return. But there are things in life that, once broken, can never be put back together. And that is why church bullies and abusers should think twice: the harm they cause, including to the church, often is irreparable.


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    Question of my own.

    Actually, it’s Laura Robinson’s question that she asked about the Josh Butler, TGC and now Patrick K Miller problem.

    “Do women ever say anything worth listening to?”

    She asks this here:
    https://laurarbnsn.substack.com/p/feeling-unsatisfied-part-6-and-conclusion

    under the heading: The Conversation About The Conversation.


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    misinterpreted bible texts — here’s IMO a big one:

    I Jn 5:13 (NIV)

    “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

    This is commonly used as a “assurance of salvation” verse, in the sense that “since I believe in Jesus, I know — based on 1 Jn 5:13 — that I am saved.”

    But that’s not what the text means. “You who believe in the name of the Son of God” identifies the audience to whom the letter I John is addressed. “these things” refers to the preceding text of the letter, which contains a multitude of tests that the reader or hearer of the text can apply to him-/herself. It is these tests that, in the view of the writer of the letter (or at least in this part of the argument of the letter), are what serve as the basis for one’s assessment that one has zoe aionios , the “life of the Age to Come.”

    I think that it is a sound inference (but this may be controversial) that the things described in the preceding chapters substantially describe what “the life of the Age to Come” actually is , which is why the writer can affirm that “if your life looks like this, then you are already living the life of the Age to Come.”

    On this reading, 1 Jn 5:13 is not about post-mortem realities, but about pre-mortem realities (though I think one would be justified to infer continuity, that if one is already living the life of the Age to Come, that’s a good sign that one will be granted a share in the resurrection of the righteous and the future life of the Age to Come).

    Another widely misinterpreted text is Rev 3:20 (NIV)

    “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

    This is often used as an evangelistic text, but in context it is written to an assembly of people who are already believers. It is not about “how to become a Christian”. It’s part of the Spirit’s address to a church that needs to repent.

    Amusingly, or not, both of these texts are (mis-)used in the above-described ways in at least one (and perhaps in others) very widely distributed personal evangelism tract.


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    Eric Bonetti: But there are things in life that, once broken, can never be put back together.

    “Hysteresis,” or “path dependency” …

    I tremble a little when I wonder how many traumas there are that have produced hidden scars that shape people’s futures, and that shape the way they interact with others. The reverence and awe that we ought to have toward the Creator perhaps ought also to spill over a bit into our way of viewing His image-bearers.

    Perhaps in future it will be a maxim of ministry (as I believe it currently is in medicine) to “first, do no harm.”


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    Am I the only one who finds most church services and or groups are set up more to revolve around extroverts? Even a very quiet liturgical service may be too overwhelming to some introverts, so why do we tell them they “must” do church?


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): News: Tim Keller passed away today.

    Wow, sad news. He was one of the good guys. And I’d like to know how he would have answered all of Dee’s questions above.


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    A couple of things I wish they would not say in the church: “turn to your neighbor and say (whatever the pastor wants you to know about his sermon)” and I wish they wouldn’t clap. After a song or the service. My hubby kids and whispers to me, when there is clapping after the service, “a lot of people are glad this is over.” Just leave in a peaceful, hopefully joyful, mood. Don’t act like you were just entertained.


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    “ Could a diehard Calvinist and a diehard Arminian ever get married?”

    Well, yeah… if God predestined them to get married….
    (I’ll see myself out…)


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    “What are two things you wish they would not say in church?”

    Sit down woman and shut-up


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    “Could a diehard Calvinist and a diehard Arminian ever get married?”

    Sure, but one would eventually die hard


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    “Can one have a fulfilling Christian life outside the church?”

    Depends on if the church is ‘the’ Church … most in my area are too full of themselves to experience a fulfilling life in Christ with them.


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    Mara R: Off the top of my head, Ephesians 5:22 (and cherry picked ones like it) and Hebrews 12:15.

    The first is self-explanatory.
    The second is about the root of bitterness and using against people who are tired of being used, abused, lied to, and dismissed.

    Ever see those Ultra-Orthodox Jews at the wailing wall in Jerusalem?
    Heads bobbing, reciting the Law of Moses verbatim?
    Well, that’s what it’s very much like with devout fundagelicals over the writings of the Apostle Paul.


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    What will happen with the Sex Abuse Task Force in the SBC?

    I think it will fade away. Now, the SBC spidey senses are are on high alert for women preachers/pastors. The vibe I’m getting is that it is much more important to protect male centered churches from women than it is to protect women and children.
    ……………….
    Will Saddleback be readmitted to the SBC?

    My prediction: Nope! Not unless they change their “ungodly” ways.


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    Jerome:
    Harry Reeder has died as well, another original member of the Council of TGC (he vanished from the Council roster a couple of years ago).

    I am so sorry. Why did he vanish from the Council?
    Car crashed into a dump truck:

    https://www.al.com/news/2023/05/rev-harry-reeder-briarwood-senior-pastor-killed-in-shelby-county-crash.html


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    “Will Saddleback be readmitted to the SBC?”

    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Is rain wet?
    Can fish swim?
    Can birds fly?
    Do dogs bark?
    Do cats meow?
    Can a woman preach?


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): The vibe I’m getting is that it is much more important to protect male centered churches from women than it is to protect women and children.

    Man-o’-Manischewitz did your arrow ever hit the bull’s-eye!


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    linda,

    You are not alone. One of the greatest blessings IMO, to have come out of the pandemic was the ability to join in a service without having to ‘endure’ all the discomfort that comes with being forced to be an extrovert, or at the very least, feeling shamed for wanting to scoot out of the room as soon as it was convenient. So, to answer a couple of the other questions, yes, you can have a very fulfilling Christian life outside of a church building. And, connected to that, a very misused verse is Hebrews 10:25


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    >What is the one Bible verse that is most misused?

    Jeremiah 29:11

    >Could a diehard Calvinist and a diehard Arminian ever get married?

    I guess it depends on how you define “diehard,” but I’m an active Calvinist attending and regularly serving in a church that is openly and actively Arminian and it’s really nice. Honestly had some super good dialogue. It also basically never comes up in conversation.


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    Samuel Conner: “Hysteresis,”

    Brill! Is maths a hobby for you like it is for me or business?

    Samuel Conner: spill over a bit into our way of viewing His image-bearers

    This is the remembrance which is the Lord’s Ordinance – not the ceremony.


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    Can one have a fulfilling Christian life outside the church?

    Yes. But (serious question), if there’s no community, what’s the point? How do you convince someone else that Christianity is “the way”? If Jesus were speaking to people then everyone would be Christian but they’re not.

    If sentient life is discovered on other planets, will they have experienced the Fall? If so, did Jesus’ sacrifice on Earth cover them as well?

    No. They may have their own religion but it would likely be very different from our way of thinking. Given the distance involved, we’ll probably pick up evidence via radio. Jesus isn’t spontaneously speaking to most of the people on this planet so unlikely he’s out there. Be a mind trip if it turned out there was an identical story in their history. But what would the complementarians do if the aliens are asexual?


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    Samuel Conner: I Jn 5:13

    there is so much of Holy Trinity in I Jn 5. Those who insist we need half a Holy Spirit allow us no Holy Spirit and those who don’t allow us Holy Spirit don’t allow us Jesus in our fellows ministering to us.


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    What is the one Bible verse that is most misused?

    Proverbs 21:2

    It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

    Other versions use “contentious” or “quarrelsome” but King Jim’s is the best.

    Don’t know if it gets misused but who doesn’t love a “brawling woman “?

    John Piper probably doesn’t (his loss).

    The aliens would be perplexed…


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    Checking in from the beach, I like the mountains better, but I wouldn’t want to live at either. I like my house at the flatter side of the piedmont.


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    Jack: what would the complementarians do if the aliens are asexual

    They will continue in Great / I mean Small Commission mode having treated us like aliens already.

    linda,

    Or create ructions around someone who doesn’t want to use “communion”?

    Eric Bonetti: ascetics

    Hermits lived near towns but just outside. Townspeople used to come and visit them a lot. Towns were very subject to the laws of guilds, sodalities and castes.


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    “If Jesus were to return and visit America, California, Florida, Illinois, etc., what might he protest?”

    The same thing he did 2000 years ago- Woe to you religious leaders who love your pulpits and private jets and the 10% tithes that feed your luxuries more than you love the single mothers in your congregations struggling to support their children. Woe to you teachers who tie up heavy burdens on women to submit to abusive husbands in the name of God but never lift a finger to help. Woe to you christian university board members who sit by silently while men of perversion deny the abused a voice and for your theology prop up abusers.”

    Jesus would say that people who perished in the CA forest fires weren’t more sinful than anyone else, but that everyone needs to repent or perish.

    He’d say nothing about politics or who to vote for. It would bother men like MacArthur (who tell people how to vote because it’s the way Christian’s should vote) so much that men like him would send his elders to question Jesus who HE would vote for. And Jesus might reply, “when you go into the voting booth keep that between you and God. When you come out volunteer at the homeless shelter, tutor a child who can’t read or mow your neighbors lawn.”


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    Fisher: “If Jesus were to return and visit America, California, Florida, Illinois, etc., what might he protest?”

    The same thing he did 2000 years ago- Woe to you religious leaders

    No doubt about it.

    It’s been said that “As the church goes, so goes the nation.” I would add “As the pastor goes, so goes the church.”

    Yep, Jesus would have much to say to religious leaders in America.


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    I think you can have a life outside the organized church but not necessarily alone if one can help it. I love being with a group of other believers and while all of us bring baggage into the relationship ( just like marriage) it can be enjoyable and a growth process. There was a fellow church member who did work on my house and to make a long story short we parted ways. For a while I thought of quitting my church because every time I saw him it made me angry. It took about a year but I finally came around to where I can shake his hand sincerely, laugh and even pray for him with love. It was a growth process for me and I am glad I stayed. Good churches and groups are hard to find but just like buying a house you have to shop around make it a mission to find the right one.


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    Wait a minute Dee…. How “diehard” an Arminian is she? Can she cook??

    Sorry…. Couldn’t resist.


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    If sentient life is discovered on other planets, will they have experienced the Fall? If so, did Jesus’ sacrifice on Earth cover them as well?

    Jesus’ blood is all-powerful. The gospel is good news for all of the Lord’s creation. Through the action of the Holy Spirit everyone is able to have true faith that Jesus alone is worthy of all honor and praise for his sacrifice as God’s only begotten Son. The Fall affected the people who chose to disobey the Lord. Not everyone has made that choice.


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    linda: Am I the only one who finds most church services and or groups are set up more to revolve around extroverts?

    Totally.

    Just using Richard Foster’s “Celebration of Discipline” as a place to start the conversation, he lists off 12 spiritual disciplines. Community is only one of them. And solitude is given equal billing space. Introverts have things to teach extroverts, too.


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    From the main article up-top:
    “If Jesus were to return and visit America, California, Florida, Illinois, etc., what might he protest?”
    Why, all those thong bikinis around the Huntington pier (southern cal) of course…


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    Muff Potter,

    Yes-siree, that’s gotta’ be his top priority.


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    Samuel Conner:

    Another widely misinterpreted text is Rev 3:20 (NIV)

    “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

    This is often used as an evangelistic text, but in context it is written to an assembly of people who are already believers. It is not about “how to become a Christian”. It’s part of the Spirit’s address to a church that needs to repent.

    This brought to mind Romans 1:7a, which indicated the letter is “To all those being in Rome beloved of God, called saints”. Yet, there was a shift in focus within the letter addressed to all the saints in Rome:

    Romans 11:13 — “Now I am speaking to you the Gentiles.”

    Going towards the last chapter, there is a message written “to everyone (Gr. Panti tō) who hears the words of prophecy in this book” (cf. Revelation 22:18), part of which would evidently have gone back to the first three chapters.

    In Revelation 3:20, the “anyone“ (Gr. Tis) who hears Christ’s voice appears to be the operative word that may not seem limited to the people currently making up those churches. It actually would stand to reason contextually that what was being conveyed comported with the general message and offer to anyone / everyone to hear the words of Jesus and receive Him, rather than solely designated to those whom chapters two and three were addressed.

    Going back to the last chapter, the message was going to the churches, but it appears to be going out to anyone / everyone / the one hearing:

    “”I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to all of you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life” (Revelation 22:16-17)


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    This hit a hot button with me.

    Things not to say… “please extend grace to…” Grace in our Christian circles is usually interpreted as God’s undeserved or unmerited favor, not mine. If you are asking (or shaming, or guilting) me into extending grace, you’re really asking me to be merciful.

    Most misused… a passage, not a verse, is Matthew 18:15-17. “You’ve violated the Matthew 18 principle”
    It is about SIN, not just disagreeing with a brother. These verses are regularly pulled off the shelf to quell disagreement or honest inquiry. The verses are used to control people.


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    Chuckp: There was a fellow church member who did work on my house and to make a long story short we parted ways.

    Did you get screwed-over?
    And if so, did he ever make it right?


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    Cynthia W.:
    Checking in from the beach, I like the mountains better

    I live near the mountains (and love it). I could watch waves at the beach all day, but, sadly, the beach is such a long way from the Denver area.


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    Afterburne,

    True!


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    I have been in conservative churches for the past 40 years…and have NEVER heard a sermon about misuse of the word submission leads to men abusing wives.


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    Abigail: I have been in conservative churches for the past 40 years…and have NEVER heard a sermon about misuse of the word submission leads to men abusing wives.

    Probably because the brethren would run the pastor out of town on a rail.


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    I look forward the joining the discussion. I will be back at 11 PM tonight.


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    “What are two things you wish they would not say in church?”

    #1 – Ask God how much you should give.

    #2 – God spoke to me.


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    Jerome: Harry Reeder has died as well

    Oh wow. I knew Harry and never had a bad interaction with him, though I know others might have different opinions. I interviewed with him for a position at Briarwood in 2008; they flew me and my wife down for a long weekend interview. We had a good time overall but the Great Recession intervened. That was just as well because while we enjoyed our visit, it wasn’t completely our cup of tea as a church.


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    Afterburne: I live near the mountains (and love it). I could watch waves at the beach all day, but, sadly, the beach is such a long way from the Denver area.

    The beach and the mountains are within driving distance for me.
    I like them both.
    I have always been enthralled with the 200 inch Hale telescope atop Mt. Palomar.
    It’s an engineering marvel (built in the 1940s).


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    George, . How “diehard” an Arminian is she? Can she cook??

    Be careful, George. A woman can use her cooking talents as a very effective bargaining tool, and the woman usually wins. (Don’t ask me how I know. You can probably guess!)
    Aside from that, the dumbest thing a single woman can do is let a single man know that she can cook ……. or sew, or preserve food, or process wild game, or……


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    From the main article up-top:
    If Jesus were to return and visit America, California, Florida, Illinois, etc., what might he protest?

    You (generic you) thought that Jesus was pi$$ed-off when he threw over the cash tables in the Temple?
    Try this one on for size.
    A little girl died from a severe medical condition while in Border Patrol custody.
    Her mother’s pleas for medical attention were ignored.
    I wouldn’t wanna’ be in their shoes on Judgement Day for all the tea in China.


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    I like being in the mountains a lot, and it would be difficult for me to live in completely flat terrain. But I’ve lived at the edge of the Pacific or no more than an hour away for the past 60 years, and can’t imagine living more than a day’s drive away. I don’t get out to the ocean much, but it’s in the depth of my soul, and the combined aromas of the salt sea, pungent blackberry leaves and decaying redwood forest vegetation will always mean “home” to me.

    Can one have a fulfilling Christian life outside a church?
    Well, “the church” in its present form is in a situation that can’t be described as “normal”, not even my own (EO, which I believe is the fullest expression of what Church is supposed to be – would not be there if I hadn’t found Christ there, and more richly than any other church I’d ever been in, despite the problems). There has never been some kind of Golden Age; we already read of severe problems in the earliest of NT writings (Paul’s letters). It’s not simply the social nature of community, or “fellowship”, that is necessary (even for introverts at whatever level they are able to engage). It’s something much deeper with roots in theology and interpretation of the NT and who Jesus is, but which is not recognized by most Protestants because of the lack of connection with the ancient Church and I don’t simply mean RC – the “Roman Catholic Church” didn’t congeal separately until about the late 10th century. I mean back before all that, when there was just one Christian Church. Americans’ general ignorance of history also comes into play here. Churches have always had problems; the best ones hold humility in higher regard than anything but love, and strive to correct the problems – even if it takes some time to do so.

    I know plenty of Prot., E’ical and Catholic folks who love Jesus and are following him to the best of their ability, knowing the reality of His life within them and behaving consistently with His Spirit’s work. Many kind and virtuous non-Christians, too. There is an advantage to being a Christian, but it would take up too much space in a comment box to fully explain. But it’s not about morality per se.

    Thanks again, Dee, for your work and this space. Have a lovely break by the sea.
    D.


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    dainca: Churches have always had problems; the best ones hold humility in higher regard than anything but love, and strive to correct the problems – even if it takes some time to do so.

    True. Lovely quote.

    Here’s a quote, from Twitter, with the flip side of humility and love:

    J. Christopher @JChrist86465761
    “Their Christianity is primarily expressed in how many ‘others’ they can suppress and control. Remember they have dominion.”


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    Muff Potter,

    He charged more than he estimated the job cost and my wife and I felt that he low bid to get our business. One of his workers shared with us that he felt the something. The work quality was good


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    dainca: Can one have a fulfilling Christian life outside a church?
    Well, “the church” in its present form is in a situation that can’t be described as “normal” … lack of connection with the ancient Church and I don’t simply mean RC – the “Roman Catholic Church” didn’t congeal separately until about the late 10th century. I mean back before all that, when there was just one Christian Church

    Agreed. Christians would do well to pause for a time out, read their Bibles, examine closely the 1st century Church, and determine for themselves what church is and what church isn’t. They would find that the 21st century expression of church in most places is far from the New Testament model established for doing church in the Kingdom of God on earth in the here and now.


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    Max,

    A very interesting discussion/concept(s)


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    If sentient life is discovered on other planets, will they have experienced the Fall? If so, did Jesus’ sacrifice on Earth cover them as well?

    Well with 100 to 400 billion stars in our galaxy and then with 100 billion to 200 billion galaxies in the universe there are likely some other (or have been and will be) some other intelligent forms of life. Will they be humans? Doubt it. Why would God design such a huge space and limit it to only one brand of intelligent life? Or even one kind of life?

    An even if you think the chances of life around any one star is infinitesimal, you still get a big number when you multiple 100×100 billion billion or more.

    To the basic question. Why? Maybe? Who knows. Do we really know the mind of God to expect him to keep repeating the same thing over and over? And to the second question, doubt it.

    As to us every knowing the answer, here’s an interesting read.
    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/05/were-essentially-alone-in-the-universe-and-thats-ok/

    PS: Even we are blasting much less radio waves into space. Our blaster phase only lasted less than 100 years. We learned better ways to communicate without wasting so much power.


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    In my honest opinion, the present form(s) of ‘christian nationalism’ reflect the evil of fascism rising ‘again’ dressed in the ‘flag’ and holding a Bible (not a mistake that it was held upside down by Trump, no . . . sometimes the Universe kindly gives us a big hint of what may be on the horizon IF we care to take note)

    In my confused opinion, I am in horror at how many good people of faith have fallen under the spell of ‘the anointed one’ whose golden statue was carried during a meeting of his supporters . . .
    many of these folks ARE basically good people but they are drawn by the ‘promise’ of political fixes of what troubles them in the culture wars . . . some ‘quick fix’ of a ‘strong man’ ordering ‘those other sinners’ into prisons and exile or worse. . .

    an ‘easy’ answer by one who says only he can fix their problems and make ‘America’ great again . . . just believe what he says and vote for him and be LOYAL only to him

    good grief, folks – it is heart-breaking to see one’s friends and family fall into this cult when you know that they are, at heart, good people and they are mis-led into worshipping the golden statue

    so sure I’m troubled, for my friends and family entrapped in this malevolent cult,
    for my country now so divided, for the mean-spirited goals of trumpism’s vile promise
    to target the poor and those who live on the fringes of our communities

    Christian? no . . . OR
    a second coming?
    . . . a second coming of WHAT or WHO?

    “The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

    (W.B. Yeats)


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    The question of Christian life outside of church is very relevant to me. I tend to think that the institutional church as we know it in North America is bloated with distortions and distractions. I’m seriously weighing for myself the pros and cons of participating in it. But, it’s not possible to be a fulfilled human, let alone a fulfilled Christian, in isolation. The key, I think, is where and how do you participate in community?


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    Jack,

    “Don’t know if it gets misused but who doesn’t love a “brawling woman “?

    John Piper probably doesn’t (his loss).

    The aliens would be perplexed…”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    yes, the aliens, coming from their advanced civilization, would clearly recognize that she was simply averting disaster on any of various levels.


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    CMT: where and how do you participate in community?

    Many believers have found healthy fellowship and community in home churches (the way the Christian church actually started). Of course, those depend on spiritually mature, discerning leaders who can keep narcissists, pedophiles and other intruders at bay. Some of those characters actually go looking for home churches to control.


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    ok, i got a real good one:

    What are the theories of the afterlife, and how do quantum mechanics / string theory fit in?

    i tend to think that even the spiritual world can be broken down into the laws of physics. i don’t see why not. seems perfectly logical to me.

    i’m neither a theologian nor a physicist, but all the same i have a sense that the afterlife is a parallel universe, and that there is some degree of interaction between the two.
    .
    .
    my mom passed away 5 years ago. in the weeks, months following, there were 3 very unique incidents when i feel she reached out to us.

    one was clearly a gesture of love.

    the other two were either as a practical joker or making the herculean effort to cross over and say “HI!!!”
    .
    .
    ….is there a physicist in the house?


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    Max,

    “Some of those characters actually go looking for home churches to control.”
    +++++++++++++++

    whoever’s spear-heading the home church, when it comes to the concept of God, it’s a fine line between autocracy and democracy.

    in my own prayer group, when I first started it, i had it all worked out. it was going to be great. revolutionary! and we were going to pray ‘like this’!

    didn’t take long to see that that was a fool’s errand, and that i needed to scale way, way back so people could pray according to what they were used to and how they felt inspired to.

    we have charismatic, pentecostal, lutheran, catholic, eastern orthodox, and generic evangelical (whatever that really means).

    essentially, we simply agree on the tenets of the nicene creed. and allow for a variety of methods and perspectives.

    the job is to pray, that’s it.

    if it were a home church, seems to me the job is to encourage each other to love our neighbors (anyone other than oneself) as ourselves (as the ultimate expression of love for God).

    topical discussions can be helpful, illuminating, and also very dicey. but it’s not the job.


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    elastigirl:

    What are the theories of the afterlife, and how do quantum mechanics / string theory fit in?

    .
    .
    .
    .is there a physicist in the house?

    I’ll limit myself to this — we don’t understand consciousness. There’s wide latitude for speculation, and for hope.


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    Samuel Conner,

    could you describe consciousness?

    and hope for what?


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    Mara R: https://laurarbnsn.substack.com/p/feeling-unsatisfied-part-6-and-conclusion

    Regarding the book she was reviewing itself:

    If Christian Sex is me pumping her full of my Precious Bodily Fluids and getting to MY male orgasm as quickly and strongly as possible, WHERE’S THE COMPANIONSHIP?

    No difference from the sexual fever swamp I encountered in Furry Fandom (which is swarming with young horndogs and predators taking advantage of all that easy prey).


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    elastigirl: i’m neither a theologian nor a physicist, but all the same i have a sense that the afterlife is a parallel universe, and that there is some degree of interaction between the two.

    And then, how do you reconcile that with Olam-ha-ba, Resurrection of the Body into a debugged Cosmos 2.0? A lot of today’s Christian afterlife is a Soul (not a person) floating around in Heaven like a Shade in Hades or burning in Hell like a Shade in Tartarus. Resurrection gets lip service at best.


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    Max: Some of those characters actually go looking for home churches to control.

    Remember when the Home Church Movement was THE cure-all for ALL the problems churches have?

    All it did was pinch off “Us Four, No More, Amen” into Home Churches without external reality checks until they evolved into small Home CULTS. Accelerating the slide into the theoretical End State of Protestantism.


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    Muff Potter: The beach and the mountains are within driving distance for me.
    I like them both.

    I’d go more for the mountains.
    Beaches are often too crowded and their immediate area too pricey.
    But anything’s better than DESERT.


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    Ava Aaronson: J. Christopher @JChrist86465761
    “Their Christianity is primarily expressed in how many ‘others’ they can suppress and control. Remember they have dominion.”

    And they are being conformed to the image of their God, a God of Wrath whose only attribute is Absolute POWER — Dominate like a Draka.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Aside from that, the dumbest thing a single woman can do is let a single man know that she can cook ……. or sew, or preserve food, or process wild game, or……

    “You gotta build an outhouse,
    And skin and cook a deer,
    And snowshoe to da trading post
    When you run low on beer”
    — Da Yoopers, “Don’t Go Up Dere”


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    elastigirl: the job is to pray, that’s it

    Years ago, while on business travel, I attended an outdoor event in Washington D.C. where elected officials mingled with the crowd. I spotted a Senator from my state and introduced myself as a constituent. After a brief discussion, I asked him if he had any prayer needs. He raised his sunglasses, looked me in the eye and asked sternly “Do you pray?” I responded that I did, met weekly with a prayer group, and would be honored to share his prayer request with them. His response “Then tell them to please pray for me, for wisdom. Congress is currently in the midst of debating ungodly legislation which would cause a farther immoral drift in our nation. I need wisdom to address this matter in a manner that would be pleasing to God. I believe that we have all the resources available to turn this nation back to God, but we don’t appropriate them because Christians don’t pray as they ought.”

    Decades later, I still remember that day and discussion vividly – knowing that the Senator was right. We just don’t take prayer seriously in church as we ought … it’s a privilege we don’t exercise … and power we don’t experience.


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    elastigirl: John Piper probably doesn’t (his loss).

    Piper is scared you-know-whatless of women.
    And he hates them too.


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    elastigirl:
    Samuel Conner,

    could you describe consciousness?

    and hope for what?

    I’m not sure that I can, though I think I know it when I’m experiencing it.

    The original commenter, whom you quoted, was speculating about possible physics underpinnings of theories of individual post-mortem continuity or perdurance — “afterlife.”

    My point is that we don’t know what “consciousness” is (I think we don’t even know what “matter” is — physics decribes how matter behaves so that more complex material structures and phenomena are understandable in terms of the properties and interactions of their constituents, but we don’t know what matter is or how it is governed.). Those, typically materialists, who think that self-awareness ends with the dissolution of our individual material forms are doing their own speculating.

    The “hope” to which I was referring is the hope that Christian ideas concerning the reality of the resurrection of the dead might actually be true. I certainly hope that they are.


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    Samuel Conner: I’ll limit myself to this — we don’t understand consciousness. There’s wide latitude for speculation, and for hope.

    Well put, and I concur.
    I have no desire for streets of gold and jewel-encrusted vistas.
    The Jewish concept of Olam-Ha-Ba is far more appealing to me.
    In a word?
    I have no desire to go to evangelical ‘heaven’.


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    Muff Potter: Piper is scared you-know-whatless of women.

    “Consider what is lost when women attempt to assume a more masculine role by appearing physically muscular and aggressive. It is true that there is something sexually stimulating about a muscular, scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club. But no woman should be encouraged by this fact. For it probably means the sexual encounter that such an image would lead to is something very hasty and volatile, and in the long run unsatisfying.” (John Piper)

    I repeat … Piper creeps me out.


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    Michael in UK: Brill! Is maths a hobby for you like it is for me or business?

    Is your path circular, elliptical, parabolic, hyperbolic, or simply a straight-line element?


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    Max: I believe that we have all the resources available to turn this nation back to God,

    Was this Nation ever really on a course with God?
    Or just in an imaginary sense that gave it a direction for expansion and the ultimate fruition of business interests?


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    Muff Potter,

    Well that’s an excellent question. I know what I think but I’m afraid that pursuing this line of discussion risks violating Dee’s ban on politics!


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    Put this on the wrong thread

    Hey, there’s always alternatives to Christianity.

    While Christianity battles Darwin these folks are cashing in on religion.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65549975

    People will shop around.

    Now I have no desire to trade one dogma for another “Goodnight Baphomet” is just so darned cute!

    So if everyone is done with church and evangelism is washed up, what happens next? Jesus is silent on the matter (yes I know there’s the bible, but Jesus doesn’t seem to be very chatty these last two thousand years).

    Should Christianity try? Or is it all washed up?

    What should “evangelism” look like going forward if the church (any church) isn’t up to the task?

    I’m out of the biz, but how do you bring people back?

    Serious topic that I have some ideas on but I’m interested in any thoughts.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “And then, how do you reconcile that with Olam-ha-ba, Resurrection of the Body into a debugged Cosmos 2.0?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    so,…if souls go to parallel universe B,…when they are joined to their resurrected physical bodies, do they go to parallel universe A or B…

    i think i need a substance that would render me a bad example to my kids to keep going, here…


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    Max,

    “We just don’t take prayer seriously in church as we ought … it’s a privilege we don’t exercise … and power we don’t experience.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i’d have to say we sell God and this useful practice way short.

    but it’s so darn practical.


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    Muff Potter,

    “Piper is scared you-know-whatless of women.
    And he hates them too”
    +++++++++++++++++

    it’s weird.

    if he and fellow complementarian doodooheads can redefine love to mean slap cute pink shackles on women’s wrists and smooth out groovey daisy duct tape over her mouth, then i can redefine that as hate.

    what nincompoop numbskulls.

    being so darn polite here…grr


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    Jack,

    “So if everyone is done with church and evangelism is washed up, what happens next? Jesus is silent on the matter”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    at the very least, as i see it, people interact with the divine in every act of kindness, self-sacrifice, honesty, generosity.

    whether personal names are attached or not, i have to think God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and the person doing the ‘Christ-like’ thing have connected and are mutually uplifted, charged,…

    the thing the bible describes as ‘edifying’ and ‘glorifying’ (hate those words, though)

    i think we can get to know God/Jesus/Holy Spirit without actually knowing their monikers


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    Jack: Should Christianity try? Or is it all washed up?

    What should “evangelism” look like going forward if the church (any church) isn’t up to the task?

    I’m out of the biz, but how do you bring people back?

    Serious topic that I have some ideas on but I’m interested in any thoughts.

    I think one can reframe this question as “what should the local church aspire to be in a post-Christendom era in which it has diminishing cultural influence?”

    My answer to this reframed question is “communities of people who share a Christ-shaped vision of what human life is about, and who help one another to live that vision.”

    In a Youtube video of a lecture at a church or a university, NT Wright has asserted (rightly, I think) that the NT churches were “ethically rigorous philanthropic fictive-kinship groups.”

    The earliest churches (both Jewish and Gentiles) faced a cultural landscape that was less sympathetic to them than what faces modern churches, and yet they grew (well, the Gentile churches grew; it seems that the Jewish churches did come through the disorders of the 1st and 2nd centuries in great condition). I think they had a better, more beautiful, way to be human than the “competitors” had (what was that? I suspect it had something to do with Jesus ‘love one another’ command and Paul’s ‘one another’ emphases).

    And then, of course, there’s always the counsel of Jeremiah 29:7.


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    elastigirl: slap cute pink shackles on women’s wrists and smooth out groovy daisy duct tape over her mouth

    The very image.


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    elastigirl: i’d have to say we sell God and this useful practice (prayer) way short.

    but it’s so darn practical.

    Not too much practical Christianity in operation in my area … hope it’s different where you live.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    yeah. hate is as hate does.

    sorta how i see it.

    “i’ve never said i hate anyone, in fact i’ve said quite the opposite. I’m motivated by love.”

    …loving them so much they have scars from being treated less than human.


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    elastigirl: if he and fellow complementarian doodooheads can redefine love to mean slap cute pink shackles on women’s wrists and smooth out groovey daisy duct tape over her mouth, then i can redefine that as hate.

    And assuring their devotees all the while that this is what the Bible ‘teaches’.


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    Max: Sure, but one would eventually die hard

    “Yippie-Kai-Yay, MoFo.”


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    elastigirl: what nincompoop numbskulls.

    Remember Holy Nincompoop Syndrome.
    Where the more stupid and ignorant you are, the more Godly you must be.


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    Jack: While Christianity battles Darwin these folks are cashing in on religion.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65549975

    To me, The Satanic Temple has the aroma of a “troll religion”.
    i.e The Discordian Society of out time.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy:

    But anything’s better than DESERT.

    We have camped in the desert (during spring break) 6 or 7 times over the years. The Needles District of the Canyonlands in Utah is an amazing and magically beautiful place – to visit. Wouldn’t want to live in that area though.


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    Abigail,

    You’ll never hear it in a sermon in a conservative church.


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    Muff Potter,

    It’s great. I’ve been on field trips to see it.


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    CMT,

    Manifest Destiny was a bad English idea before it became a bad American idea, but in 1946 a pope overloaded it by sacredly commending the world to the USA system, coincidental with J Edgar Hoover’s gaining influence with Carl Henry through the agency of some priests from the jesuit order (ecumenism becoming all the rage).

    https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/into-the-hands-of-america-pope-pius-xii-s-blessing

    https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691175119/the-gospel-of-j-edgar-hoover

    Jesus freaks were a subliminal reaction against this atmosphere of control, but were quickly delivered by Jim Jones into the hands of the moralisers of circa 1980.

    When queried, the dominionism deniers on the dominionism side always pretend that their stance is mere pretence and will never have any effect.

    https://churchwatchcentral.com/2017/03/02/wagner-reports-on-todd-bentleys-2008-alignment-ceremony/

    We should pray non-superstitiously, because when we intercede regularly, it will keep this sort of thing in better check and it will keep the spiritual gifts of ordinary people in calmer and more aware order.


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    Max: His response “Then tell them to please pray for me, for wisdom…I need wisdom to address this matter in a manner that would be pleasing to God.I believe that we have all the resources available to turn this nation back to God, but we don’t appropriate them because Christians don’t pray as they ought.”

    I still remember that day and discussion vividly – knowing that the Senator was right.We just don’t take prayer seriously in church as we ought … it’s a privilege we don’t exercise … and power we don’t experience.

    May God send good angels to jog the elbows of unwitting but busy politicians into rights and out of wrongs (they will thank us for our prayers, in the hereafter).

    “Pray for your rulers” means those whose position is through whom just or unjust rule comes, i.e is for just quality of rule, and is not ad hominem. Their “hearts and minds” don’t get changed by moralising or warring.

    Overreach by government, commerce or professions (that’s a quality, not a quantity) is a wrong and is the expression of a dominionism whatever religious or secular brand name gets slapped on it. To welcome it because your supposed enemies don’t, is called a fallacy of the distinctives. Remember that the superapostles pretend that dominionism hasn’t had any spiritual force with anyone.


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    Max: in a manner that would be pleasing to God. I believe that we have all the resources available to turn this nation back to God, but we don’t appropriate them

    The entire meaning of the Old Testament is that God stands for the vulnerable and against the haughty and the finger pointers; too many preachers forgot to promulgate this from it (“bad bits” are cautionary tales against haughty spiritual leaders, mixed with just so stories and other perfectly respectable rhetoric). Thus irrespective of whether that senator was inclined to be naively supportive of dominionists or not, he had the sense to ask for impartial supplications. Our supplication ought to be that God’s people will supplicate (their raison d’etre).


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    What are two things you wish they would not say in church?
    1: “Now take a few minutes and say hi to your friends”
    I feel horrible for wishing this. I’m probably a snooty worship snob or something. I can arrive early, stay late or go to other activities and say hi to my friends. I say hi to them when I’m at work and they’re my customers. Yesterday I admit I had trouble focusing during the singing time. I was worried that the pastor may be mad at me but he’s too busy to talk to me about it. I was worried about health problems and family problems and work problems. But by the 4th song I was becoming a bit still and knowing He is God and a bit thankful joyful etc. Then comes the coffee break. I stepped outside to enjoy some quiet sunshine. A visitor came out. He said he’s hard of hearing and the noise of many conversations is difficult for him. He’s also claustrophobic so the crowd milling about is also challenging. Then they rounded us back up for announcements and sermon time.
    2: Quotes from the pastor’s mentor or the mentor’s mentor who founded the non-denomination. Because I’m aware of some indiscretions which were very well covered up and I don’t know for sure if the pastor is aware, but he probably is.


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    Michael in UK: The entire meaning of the Old Testament is that God stands for the vulnerable and against the haughty and the finger pointers

    Today, God is the God of the Rich, Powerful, and RIGHTeous.
    Nothing more.


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    Re the introverts: I have some deeply introverted family who do not find a shred of fellowship or relationship in church. When you think of it, most of the evangelical churches around here no longer do ss or small groups. It is strictly come to the big show Sunday morning. The same seems to be happening among the liturgical crowd. Lots of talk about all being the family of God but I dare say most don’t know anyone outside their own family. So there is that. But these introverts do practice following Jesus quite well. They just get way more out of taking their Bible to look out over a canyon, or with them in a small boat on a pond, etc, than they do at a service. One even asked why people will go and sit and listen as someone plants thoughts not in accord with the Bible in their brains. Another questions the need to go hear someone tell lies about Jesus or ignore Him entirely, putting his or herself in His place.

    Now as to physics and faith, here are some of my heresies lol: I fully believe God transcends time. So when we die there is nothing to wait for. That backward moving universe might be heaven. Or not. But I fully expect to be instantly with Jesus when I die, and wherever He is will be heaven. I do expect life goes on and in that age you are either in grace and enjoying it, “in the millennium” and excluded from the good stuff as you go through retraining, or having faced Jesus and with all knowledge of His goodness rejected Him and are completely destroyed by the punishment you receive. (Would anyone actually do that? So is anyone actually destroyed?)

    As to the universe, I believe we are the current only occupants excepting God, the angels, seraphim and cherubim, etc. I believe it all shows the results of a cosmic conflict when Satan rebelled. I also believe we were supposed to REplenish the earth, living in harmony with God, and probably were going to get the chance to REplenish the universe and make all of it a garden of Eden. But we biffed it on earth, the first settlement. For now.

    But who knows? Maybe when the last soul that will ever be saved IS saved, we get to not just be in eternity but experience it, and maybe those vast expanses are just waiting for humanity 2.0 to till it and bring order and beauty beyond compare. Maybe if nobody actually rejects Jesus finally, we are going to need all that space and then some.

    All I know is Jesus is Lord of the whole kit and caboodle, and He surely was kind to give us science and minds to explore all that wondrous beauty.


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    Max: His response “Then tell them to please pray for me, for wisdom. Congress is currently in the midst of debating ungodly legislation which would cause a farther immoral drift in our nation.

    I’m not going to ask what his specific issue was. And it may have been truly a righteous request. But at times over the last 50+ years, a non trivial number of US Senators would call the mixing of people with different shades of skin color to be utterly ungodly.

    Personally I’d have to know the specific issue before I’d pray in the affirmative.


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    linda: I also believe we were supposed to REplenish the earth, living in harmony with God, and probably were going to get the chance to REplenish the universe and make all of it a garden of Eden. But we biffed it on earth, the first settlement. For now.

    I believe this too.
    One day we’ll learn how to jump those vast distances between the stars by folding space itself rather than trying to travel through it.

    “You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one…”

    — John Lennon 1971 —


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    Most misused Bible verse?

    “Everything happens for a reason.” 😉


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    Two things I disagree with in Calvinism?

    The “Calvin” and the “-ism.”

    But seriously, if I had to limit it to two, I’d say that “Jesus only died for the elect” and that “God predestined all sin/evil/unbelief (predestined people to hell) but that He punishes us for it”. Those are all you need to destroy God’s character and the gospel.

    But I disagree with Arminianism that thinks we can lose our salvation. I do not agree with them on that.


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    Max: Christians would do well to pause for a time out, read their Bibles, examine closely the 1st century Church,

    Reading the Bible is always good – but there’s not really a lot there about what actually happened on any given Sunday, for example. To understand what the early Church was like, one must also read extra-Scriptural works written by those everyone agrees were real Christians, not Gnostic-type wanna-bes. I agree that one will find that it doesn’t look like most Protestant churches. There are actually first-century sources: The Didache, the Epistle to Barnabas, Ignatius (c.110) and the other writers known as the Apostolic Fathers, including Justin (c.150). The standout is Irenaeus (c.200). There is an astounding richness in the earliest Christian theological writings, especially from the East, during the first four centuries – the same amount of time as has passed since when the first English settlers came to this country. If you add in the work of Margaret Barker (English Methodist) on what Jewish temple worship meant metaphysically to the Jews (which I find meshes very neatly with what the earliest Christians saw as the meaning of what Christ has done, since the first Christians were Jews), 21st century Protestant worship will look even less like that of early Christian times.

    I began reading back behind the Schism (11th century) more than 20 years ago. How the Eastern writers, especially, interpreted Scripture made me pay attention.

    D.


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    FreshGrace: linda,

    You are not alone. One of the greatest blessings IMO, to have come out of the pandemic was the ability to join in a service without having to ‘endure’ all the discomfort that comes with being forced to be an extrovert, or at the very least, feeling shamed for wanting to scoot out of the room as soon as it was convenient. So, to answer a couple of the other questions, yes, you can have a very fulfilling Christian life outside of a church building. And, connected to that, a very misused verse is Hebrews 10:25

    That.


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    Max: I repeat … Piper creeps me out.

    Oh my! Most misused Bible verse?
    The chief end of man is to glorify god BY enjoying him forever. I Pastorjohn 1:1
    The 2d is like unto it:
    Husbands LEAD your wives as Christ LED the church! II Pastorjohn 2:2


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    Seriously, and the real Pastor John never taught this like he really did those other 2 (foundational to his whole system, in fact):
    I’d agree Heb 10:25 is the very most misused, with Heb 13:17 right behind.


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    elastigirl:
    ok, i got a real good one:

    What are the theories of the afterlife, and how do quantum mechanics / string theory fit in?

    i tend to think that even the spiritual world can be broken down into the laws of physics.i don’t see why not.seems perfectly logical to me.

    i’m neither a theologian nor a physicist, but all the same i have a sense that the afterlife is a parallel universe, and that there is some degree of interaction between the two.
    .
    .
    my mom passed away 5 years ago.in the weeks, months following, there were 3 very unique incidents when i feel she reached out to us.

    one was clearly a gesture of love.

    the other two were either as a practical joker or making the herculean effort to cross over and say “HI!!!”
    .
    .
    ….is there a physicist in the house?

    The closest I was able to understand high level physics was reading “The Elegant Universe” by Brian Green. PBS Nova did an episode on it as well.

    But, if the earth has a giant magnetic field, is it possible that we get “recorded” onto it? Maybe some folks can access the “playlist”. Some areas are haunted because the recording is strong…or maybe I just listened to too much “Coast to Coast AM” when working the night shift in the nineties….


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    elastigirl: if he and fellow complementarian doodooheads can redefine love to mean slap cute pink shackles on women’s wrists and smooth out groovey daisy duct tape over her mouth, then i can redefine that as hate.

    It’s about power and that power masquerading as love is all about control. And I think it does give these clowns a kick.

    I found the metaphor used disturbing (as “Silence of the Lambs” disturbing). If that’s what church is for some women, it must feel quite hellish.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: To me, The Satanic Temple has the aroma of a “troll religion”.
    i.e The Discordian Society of out time.

    Absolutely. But it’s filling a niche for some folks. Ironically the message refutes the “execution” missives in the bible.

    People are finding it hard to hate their friends and neighbors like evangelicalism would have us do.

    And they bring up some good points about Christianity’s special place in a secular republic.

    I’d like to see what would happen if that ripped up a Koran though.


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    Samuel Conner,

    From what I understand, there was community but no church. Paul was tent maker who went from town to town setting up space and talking to people really where they are, not having the people come to him.

    I like the term “post Christendom ”

    Even Constantine courted the Christians as a useful “block” within the empire. Very much like American political parties have done.

    I suspect Christian nationalism is a result of “Christians” in a race against time to attempt to re jig the Republic before it’s “too late”


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    Jack: I suspect Christian nationalism is a result of “Christians” in a race against time to attempt to re jig the Republic before it’s “too late”

    You might enjoy reading The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Coontz.
    In it, she completely de-bunks the ideology of the Christian-Right.
    She does it with skill and aplomb.


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    Heather: can lose our salvation

    Since salvation in the sense of survival of integrity is both future and (for some people) relative, that would be better viewed as a non-question if taken in the usual terms.

    Muff Potter: The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Coontz … completely de-bunks the ideology of the Christian-Right … with skill and aplomb

    Thanks, shall check out later in year, because we have it over here too (differently styled).

    Heather: predestined

    What Scripture actually states as predestined, is that when we buy into Jesus’ resurrection, when He inbreathed, when coupled with Ascension, when He distributed gifts unvetoed, we may have assurance of God’s presence. It’s simply that many of us were taught not to read that out of it.

    Scripture as a whole is sometimes ambiguous at specific moments as between heaven and (non-numerical) purgatory, and between hell and (non-numerical) purgatory. Some will be permanently lost, but that doesn’t give preachers a true carte blanche to judge themselves and Hitler relatively but critics absolutely. Discerning is a matter of critiquing attitudes which endanger the integrity of the more vulnerable, lest we condone those by complacency.


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    Muff Potter: Is your path

    I like to use spiral staircase arguments, that show that the same thing can be said different ways.


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    “Can one have a fulfilling Christian life outside the church?”

    That is an interesting question. First it depends on what you mean by fulfilling. If you mean, a life that is filled with the presence of Christ, no. Christ died for the church. His purpose was to save a people, not just individuals. The entire new Testament is directed toward churches, not individuals. And I could show passage after passage that show that community is the answer to most problems.


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    Muff Potter,

    Err, wait… they’re praying. (For many Ashkenazi Jews, that involves the physical movement you referred to and more.)


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    Bob M,

    I’m going to respectfully sort of disagree. When one is born again they are immediately in the church, albeit not necessarily in a local body. Some of us were not saved inside a building. Not all of us are landmarkers or RCC in our understanding of the church. Many of us believe in the universal church of believers, and then sort out into local bodies. But someone who is intensely an introvert definitely does not need to go against their grain and attend the show on Sunday. Those folks seem from what I see to have fine Christian fellowship with others one on one all throughout the week. And fine worship with and of the Lord Jesus Christ when alone. Sitting facing forward listening to someone speak, or pray, or sing isn’t always worship. Sitting together with a bff at Starbucks sorting out a situation, praying, and giving God praise may be more worshipful.


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    Samuel Conner,

    Yep – the definition(s) keep changing. I, too, believe there’s plenty of reason for hope.

    elastigirl, i have no answers, but quantum physics (which i don’t really understand) seems to suggest pretty much infinite possibilities. I don’t want to read into anything, but there’s that thing Jesus said about his Father’s house having many mansions (i like the KJV wording). My hunch is that he meant that there’s plenty of room for all, but as to what form that takes, all bets are off. One of the problems here: literalist interpretations of Revelation, which is not and never was meant to be read literally.

    Really, there’s very little about what the afterlife – being in the presence of God – is actually like. Mostly, Jesus addressed such things in parables. Our minds are finite, and there’s a plethora of apocalyptic literature from around the time Jesus was on earth that goes into great detail about things that are mere speculations at best. So we work with what we have. Hope is a vital component of that, no?


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    Muff Potter: You might enjoy reading The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Coontz.
    In it, she completely de-bunks the ideology of the Christian-Right.
    She does it with skill and aplomb.

    I’ll check it out, thanks!


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    I am having a fulfilling Christian life outside of church . . . but not outside the Church.


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    I picked this Baptist News post about Johnny Hunt off Dee’s Twitter….‘Pastor Johnny’ is the head of a family empire that feeds off the SBC
    https://baptistnews.com/article/pastor-johnny-is-the-head-of-a-family-empire-that-feeds-off-the-sbc/

    I haven’t finished reading the post as it’s long and I’ve other things to do, but I thought others might be interested in the intertwining of Johnny Hunt, his family, a bunch of different “Family Ministries”, and the SBC.

    There’s a diagram in the post under the sentence “Johnny Hunt Family Ministries Diagram via 990 Statements:” that, although the words aren’t readable unless you increase the size of the type (the diagram doesn’t expand when you click on it) gives a good picture of the intertwining.


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    linda:
    Bob M,

    I’m going to respectfully sort of disagree.When one is born again they are immediately in the church, albeit not necessarily in a local body.Some of us were not saved inside a building.Not all of us are landmarkers or RCC in our understanding of the church.Many of us believe in the universal church of believers, and then sort out into local bodies.But someone who is intensely an introvert definitely does not need to go against their grain and attend the show on Sunday.Those folks seem from what I see to have fine Christian fellowship with others one on one all throughout the week.And fine worship with and of the Lord Jesus Christ when alone.Sitting facing forward listening to someone speak, or pray, or sing isn’t always worship.Sitting together with a bff at Starbucks sorting out a situation, praying, and giving God praise may be more worshipful.

    Show me from the Bible. You can’t.


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    Bob M: Show me from the Bible. You can’t.

    Nobody should come to TWW and proclaim superior knowledge of the Bible. Nobody should challenge anybody to whatever you are suggesting, a Bible-Off?

    When there’s an absolute requirement to belong to church, the church has absolute power, and abuse will happen.

    I’m sure you have verse after verse, but some of us have left church after church.


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    Bob M: Show me from the Bible. You can’t.

    How about this one?

    “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” (Psalm 137:9)

    Ah, the good ole bible, truly the word of god …


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    Friend,

    Bob M,

    You have a bit of a problem with me. I became a Christian outside of the church in my living room while watching Star Trek in Salem, Massachusets, at the age of 17. My parents were not Christians. The moment I believed I was a Christian. It took me about four months to begin attending a church in college. I challenge anyone to claim I was not a member of the body of believers. I attended a Bible study during that four months outside the church and went to Christian coffee houses. I followed Jesus, read the Bible, and prayed—a different sort of conversion but a conversion nonetheless.


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    Bob M: Show me from the Bible. You can’t.

    The Bible is a great and wonderful thing to be sure.
    But I also think it suffers from two great ills.
    Not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other extreme.


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    Bob M,

    He died, rose and Ascended for us to receive gifts unvetoed, that make us more individual, by strengthening our resistance against codependency as we exercise them. Because all that got defined out of “community” (I’ve been there), your comment doesn’t contain meaning. Cessationists = we can’t have Jesus because we can’t have Holy Spirit.


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    Bob M,

    It also depends what one refers to by church. Early hermits lived near town walls free of laws governing guilds and castes within the walls. Town and country people alike flocked to visit them. This also answers the question about denominations. True ecumenism is when church leaders stay in lane and ordinary laity mingle at their discretion; the very prevalent wrong kind gets it completely reversed.


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    Muff Potter: The Bible is a great and wonderful thing to be sure.
    But I also think it suffers from two great ills.
    Not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other extreme.

    That is your problem. You cannot give it to much credence.


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    dee:
    Friend,

    Bob M,

    You have a bit of a problem with me. I became a Christian outside of the church in my living room while watching Star Trek in Salem, Massachusets, at the age of 17. My parents were not Christians. The moment I believed I was a Christian. It took me about four months to begin attending a church in college. I challenge anyone to claim I was not a member of the body of believers. I attended a Bible study during that four months outside the church and went to Christian coffee houses. I followed Jesus, read the Bible, and prayed—a different sort of conversion but a conversion nonetheless.

    I never said you were not a Christian. I defy you to show me from the Bible how not being in a church is a norm.


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    Bob M,

    You “defy” me? Aren’t we getting a little bent out of shape here? By the way, abortion isn’t in the Bible either, but I am pro-life anyway.


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    Bob M,

    Of course I can. What church did the Ethiopian eunuch join when he was baptized? Name it, please. Or what church did the thief on the cross join. Name it, please. And when Saul was gloriously saved giving us Paul, what church did he join? None! He went to the backside of the desert for years and then came back and touched base with the other apostles but did not see them as in authority over him.

    How about you show us from the Bible where joining a local body of believers, a 501c3 organization, is necessary for salvation?

    Cannot, can you.


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    Bob M: I defy you to show me from the Bible how not being in a church is a norm.

    Today’s “church” in many places is not ‘the’ Church … therein, lies the tension of some Christians trying to be a part of it … a frustrating journey for them trying to be normal within the abnormal. Hope it’s better where you live.


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    Bridget: I am having a fulfilling Christian life outside of church . . . but not outside the Church.

    The institutional church is not always ‘the’ Church … some folks just don’t get that.


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    Bob M: His purpose was to save a people, not just individuals.

    Jesus came to redeem individuals, not institutions. The institution we call church is OK if it is preaching ‘the’ Gospel, reaching souls for Christ, equipping them to know and fulfill their individual spiritual gifting, and mobilizing them as the Body of Christ to pursue the Great Commission together. Anything less than that is doing church without God.


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    Bob M: I defy you to show me from the Bible how not being in a church is a norm.

    So angry, so aggressive. What is motivating you?

    But anyway, since you mentioned me, I’d refer you to Genesis through Malachi, and arguably the four Gospels. But go ahead, tell me I’m wrong and hellbound.


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    Bob M: That is your problem. You cannot give it to much credence.

    When you (generic you) construe a personal letter to Paul’s protege in Ephesus (Timothy) as proof positive that women cannot teach, that’s making too much of it (my opinion).


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    Max: Today’s “church” in many places is not ‘the’ Church … therein, lies the tension

    This is what many of us are finding. While fellowshipping with healthy, non-legalistic believers is desired, this isn’t what modern church is about anymore. The modern church, in most instances, looks NOTHING like what was seen in the early church.

    And taking modern Christians and putting them in a house church doesn’t solve a thing. It’s just taking the institution out of a “church” building and putting it into a house.

    Being around the institutional political organizations that call themselves churches today does pretty much nothing for the sincere believer. At least nothing like what being part of the early church.

    So, Bob M, while I fellowship with other believers who seek to worship Him in Spirit and Truth, most of that happens outside the confines of a church building, house church setting, or any institution or political structures that masquerade as real churches.


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    linda: Bob M,

    I’m going to respectfully sort of disagree. When one is born again they are immediately in the church, albeit not necessarily in a local body. Some of us were not saved inside a [church] building….Many of us believe in the universal church of believers, and then sort out into local bodies. But someone who is intensely an introvert definitely does not need to go against their grain and attend….[I / we] worship with….Jesus Christ when alone. Sitting facing forward listening to someone speak, or pray, or sing isn’t always worship.

    (Bold done by me.)

    That.


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    Bob M: . I defy you to show me from the Bible how not being in a church is a norm.

    I don’t think Adam and Eve had a church, come to think of it, pretty much the whole old testament and the Gospels. I don’t think church is mentioned until Acts. Even then it’s more a general community than an institution. Lots of trippy church stuff in Revelation. And a Jesus with a sword for a tongue, and flaming eyes…one way ticket to midnight…all right…heavy metal….


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    Jack,

    1100 mentions of words that can mean slave.

    58 mentions of church

    3 mentions of cheese.

    Wallace and Gromit would be disappointed.


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    Muff Potter,

    Why don’t they just get it over with and call it Paulianity?


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    There’s a curious discontinuity in the standard narrative regarding how important it is to be in “a church” (meaning, in practice, an isolated sub-group of the local church).

    Many Wartburgers have found themselves forced out of local church congregations by rogue leaders. It’s what comes after this that gives rise to the discontinuity. There are those who, on the one hand, stress the necessity of being in “a church” – but surprisingly often, they are the same ones who want us to drop it and “move on” once we’ve been excommunicated. In other words, they want us to act as though those relationships and the connectedness we once had did not in fact mean anything and we can just replace them.

    ISTM that there’s a certain hollow ceremony about at least some of the you-must-join-a_church speak. A few years ago a much younger person tried to explain to me that (in her exact words) “you’re covered and protected” in a_church and that “you’re open to all kinds of attack” unless you’re part of one. She was quite explicit that the “para-church organisation” of which we were both part did not count In reality, of course, there’s nowhere you’re more open to all kinds of attack, spiritual and otherwise, than in a_church.


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    Muff Potter: Paulianity?

    The term would fit. There’s no doubt that the New Calvinists talk way more about Paul than they do Christ. It’s as if the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) don’t exist in their Bibles.


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    Jack,

    Although you have “moved on”, you may be interested in the case made by James Stuart Russell, in his The Parousia that Christ’s appearing and “return in wrath” was regarded to be imminent by all the NT authors and that it actually took place during the AD 66-73 war between Judea and Rome. It sort of puts the purpose of the first local assemblies into a different context — they were trying to help each other survive a turbulent and dangerous period.


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    Nick Bulbeck: “you’re open to all kinds of attack” unless you’re part of one.

    Well, it’s not necessarily an attack, but it is a self-fulfilling prophecy when people leave, and then the churched criticize the unchurched, perhaps hounding them and even depriving them of their livelihoods.

    Yeah, I know, she was referring to Satin. Thing is, folks like that also often say that Satin reserves his worst attacks for the best Christians (the churched).

    In case anyone does not know, I am a lifelong churchgoer, although I have taken some breaks. My current congregation welcomes me and does not coerce me.


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    Nick Bulbeck: there’s nowhere you’re more open to all kinds of attack, spiritual and otherwise, than in a_church

    That’s because Jesus has essentially no authority and influence in the average church. Either the pulpit or the pew are in control, not Christ. Some of the meanest people on the planet go to church … why, I’m not sure.


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    Friend: My current congregation welcomes me and does not coerce me.

    So does mine (Lutheran-ELCA).
    We’re a motley crew of Democrats, Republicans, free-thinkers, and various others.
    No politics, no axes to grind, no strong-man (dictator) in the pulpit.
    Just free people who enjoy each others company with coffee and donuts afterwards.


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    Samuel Conner:
    Jack,

    Although you have “moved on”, you may be interested in the case made by James Stuart Russell, in his The Parousia that Christ’s appearing and “return in wrath” was regarded to be imminent by all the NT authors and that it actually took place during the AD 66-73 war between Judea and Rome. It sort of puts the purpose of the first local assemblies into a different context — they were trying to help each other survive a turbulent and dangerous period.

    I’m reading a book by Elaine Pagels that make the same case but thanks for the info. Always looking for something to read.


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    Jack,

    “if the earth has a giant magnetic field, is it possible that we get “recorded” onto it? Maybe some folks can access the “playlist”. Some areas are haunted because the recording is strong…or maybe I just listened to too much “Coast to Coast AM” when working the night shift in the nineties….”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    not at all. i think it’s fascinating to ruminate on these things. no one knows how it all works out. seems to me an open mind is the only reasonable one to have.

    i think i saw that same nova program you did. it was so intriguing.


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    Jack,

    “If that’s what church is for some women, it must feel quite hellish.”
    ++++++++++++++

    well, it’s all done with sweet smiles and tone of voice, in christianese Godtalk. i imagine many women don’t even realize it’s happening.

    i was in a very egalitarian church for many years. it was very dysfunctional in other ways, but people were people – i was always treated the same as my male counterparts.

    and then i was in a few other church environments with the complementarian doodoo culture.

    it was shocking.

    it was deeply dehumanizing. so painful. to be either invisible, ignored, or like a dog on a leash.

    all done with such sweet smiles. enough to twist someone psychologically.


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    elastigirl: at the very least, as i see it, people interact with the divine in every act of kindness, self-sacrifice, honesty, generosity.

    nothing ‘at the very least’ about it, as you have referred to the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting in peoples’ lives . . . .

    ‘talk’ is cheap, but when a person responds to the ‘fruit of the Spirit’, especially in times when there is suffering, we can ‘see’ faith lived out in response to need

    I think you have identified what IS ‘real’ . . .

    and, my goodness, does it point to Christ far more than the social clubs and political hacks that have called themselves ‘churches’ but failed to recognize the dignity of human persons that were ‘different’ from themselves or the plight of those living at the margins of our society

    good comment, elastigirl


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    Jack,

    I intuit that you are referring to Prof. Pagel’s book on Revelation.

    JSR’s work The Parousia is intriguing in that it explores the expectation of a soon appearing of Christ through almost every NT book. It’s quite dated, however, and the scholars with whom he interacts, who were his contemporaries, are names that are not well-remembered today.

    It’s intriguing that JSR is roughly contemporary with Darby, so that Preterism and Dispensationalism, two ideas that are about as far apart from each other as it is possible to be, arose at about the same time (within decades of each other) and in geographical proximity. Perhaps there was “something in the water”; levity aside, perhaps eschatological questions were of pressing concern to churches in the UK, and that led to creative reflection on the meaning of the Scriptures.


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    Samuel Conner: UK

    That is when the “Manifest Destiny” superstition grew, having started in the 16 th century. The Industrial revolution revealed that new concentrations of population mainly lacked the usual denominational places of worship, so all sorts of newer-fangled chapel-based movements (of very diverse kinds, some good) started to thrive in those districts especially.

    Samuel, what I call the present eschaton started at Jesus’ Ascension with the disciples’ fear-filled prayer ministering and is ongoing for a length of time that we cannot determine. When we at length enter a subset of this, certain characteristics already here and described throughout Scripture will not fade.

    In this life ye shall have trouble – a well worn proverb of all ages. Soon it will be night when we can’t work. Let him who doesn’t work, not eat. My food is to do the will of Him who sent me (on behalf of His little ones). In my young day before we took the slogan “never had it so good” seriously, my secular junior school taught us that the spiritual side of life was worth putting simple work into while we have capability.


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    Jack: maybe I just listened to too much “Coast to Coast AM” when working the night shift in the nineties….

    i.e. Getting your Weirdness Fix — Art Bell opening up the phone lines at 2 Ayem!


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    Muff Potter,

    The ELCA, TEC and more laid back Roman Catholic parishes are so, so different to what goes on in many mainline denoms + evangelical churches, though. This is a big one. The Body of Christ = all who believe, everywhere. Belonging – or not – to a local congregation or not doesn’t alter that fact.

    It’s a bit like being Jewish. Just b/c someone isn’t a member of a synagogue or temple doesn’t make them somehow not Jewish. Similarly, Muslims who don’t attend at any specific mosque.

    But liturgical churches that perform infant baptism, it’s just a whole different ball game. (The Eastern Othodox and Oriental Orthodox churches baptize infants, but i don’t know enough about how things actually operate in any of them to comment.)


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    dee:
    Bob M,

    You “defy” me? Aren’t we getting a little bent out of shape here? By the way, abortion isn’t in the Bible either, but I am pro-life anyway.

    not bent out of shape in the least. Defy is just a way to say that I believe that the norm in the New Testament (Yes, as opposed to to the OT) is for a person to be part of a church. Are there places where you cannot tell what church that person would have been part of? Of course. There are always exceptions. But the overall, normal, regular cadence of life in the New Testament period is that people gather in groups ( assemble) and those groups are called assemblies. The Spirit of God led the NT writers to use that term, ekklesia, that we translate “church.” It just means assembly. And yes there is something called the Universal church that we are all members of. But the local gathering of believers (whatever you want to call it) is the norm.


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    Bob M: Show me from the Bible. You can’t.

    Bob, This is a different point from the one you have reiterated at 10.55. How many parables have you read? The discussion has lost shape because you didn’t take part in it enough.

    He died, rose and Ascended for us to receive gifts unvetoed, that make us more individual, by strengthening our resistance against codependency as we exercise them. Because all that got defined out of “community” (I’ve been there), your comment was deprived of meaning by authorities less kindly than yourself. Cessationists = we can’t have Jesus because we can’t have Holy Spirit.

    It also depends what one refers to by church. Early hermits lived near town walls free of laws governing guilds and castes within the walls. Town and country people alike flocked to visit them. This also answers the question about denominations. True ecumenism is when church leaders stay in lane and ordinary laity mingle at their discretion; the very prevalent wrong kind gets it completely reversed.

    Jesus and the apostles never said don’t put thought and time into looking and discerning: it was bad churches that started telling us that, in 1983.

    And from my questions on a related thread:

    – what do you make of Daniel 9: 3-21?

    – do you think Jesus intended that the churches should drop the “communion ceremony” once some of them were no longer attending synagogues circa 130 AD?


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    Well… i am not sure how to understand the “gathering” thing, as there’s a lot in the Bible that we tend to read through our own lenses.

    Example: if one reads Acts the way many people tend to do (or even the Gospels), it’s like a miracle happened every 60 seconds. But that’s our perspective, not that of the writers. Chronology, in the way that we tend to think of it, wasn’t a concern in the ancient world, not in the way it is now. Even simple things like the times that people got up and went to bed weren’t anything like now, b/c there was no artificial light.

    I wish i could just set my ideas about the way the 66 books are written + what they were intended to say off to one side. I’m as much a creature of our time as the next person. There are so many things, even in subtitles like “of Moses” and “of David” that were never meant to mean what contemporary people think they mean. (In art history, that’s also a valid concept – “of Rubens” doesn’t necessarily mean thar Rubens himself painted it; he had many assistants and apprentices who did the bulk of the work for him, while he might step in to paint the central figure or figures only. So “of Rubens” doesn’t mean a painting is inauthentic, only that he might not have done it himself – but a student or apprentice in his workshop, following exactly what he taught, was working in a very similar style.)

    I do wonder if people outside major urban centers actually had other people they could meet with, in the earliest centuries. It’s a bit of an open question, not unlike “Why was Paul in Arabia?” I’m not sure we’ll ever find definitive answers, but the questions are, to some degree, beside the point.

    The people who wrote both the Jewish and specifically Xtian scriptures lived in worlds so vastly different than our own that it’s difficult to imagine them. (Or it is for me, b/c there’s no way i can ever hope to set aside the things i accept as givens about life – in so msany cases, they simply didn’t exist back then, whether it’s artificial light, awareness that the world is round, etc.)

    Just my .02-worth…


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    I wonder how many people outside of major cities had any awareness of Xtianity at all, up until the early 2nd c., anyway.

    I’m not kidding. It’s an interesting question. I’m from a rural area (and am currently living in my home town) and everything here is about 10+ years behind nearby urban centers – if trends ever get here at sll, that is. And this is *now,* with smartphones, 5G internet (in an increasing number of rural places), etc.

    It’s a puzzlement, as the King says in “The King and I.”


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    numo: “gathering”

    I sometimes wonder if the term referred partly to staying in the synagogue (as well as visiting Christian homes). Frictions didn’t come to a head till the late 60s and up to 130 AD. Scripture writers were telling Christians not to casually add to that, but witness the same as Jesus witnessed. Some of the Jews missing out temporarily is not causal but incidental.

    Hence the current meaning of the passage is the same as that of the (to my mind perhaps outdated) “communion ceremonies”: “remember Me” i.e don’t quash the gifts in the ordinary christians (those leaders who did fell asleep, became dead hands, etc)

    numo: 10+ years behind

    And 50 years behind the sceptr’d isle by retaining self-reliance and most kinds of plenty.


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    numo: I wonder how many people outside of major cities had any awareness of Xtianity at all, up until the early 2nd c., anyway.

    Pagans originally meant country folk (or those living in small rural communities) as opposed to urban folk so it could have been applied to non-Christians because country folk were less likely to be Christian. (The other earlier meaning of pagan was civilian and there the contrast between Christians as soldiers in the Church Militant versus everyone not Christian, the OED gives both possibilities plus a third).

    However early Christianity does seem to have been urban and spread along the trade routes (and the Roman empire had a lot of trade routes).

    BTW I wanted to mention how much I like the astronomy pictures at the beginning. If one looks in a different direction, the EV Nautilus has a lot of videos of deep sea creatures like a new species of deep sea jellyfish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It4URLbI5hI They also have a live cam https://nautiluslive.org/ which can be interesting watching