“The voices in this article should be heard as a warning sent from God, calling the church to repent,” Greear tweeted. “As Christians, we are called to expose everything sinful to the light. The survivors in this article have done that — at a personal cost few of us can fathom.”
-J.D. Greear, February 10, 2019
“And what sort of lives do these people, who pose as being moral, lead themselves? My dear fellow, you forget that we are in the native land of the hypocrite.”
― The Picture of Dorian Gray“Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted, so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
Matthew 15:12-14 NLT
In this video J.D. Greear has made it clear that he doesn’t like “discernment bloggers or whatever name they want to give themselves.”
Greear is speaking about people like Dee and me, you know the type – we supposedly cause dissension among the ranks of the 46,000 whom Greear just told us are unified on all the major tenants of the SBC Faith and Message. Greear goes on to say, “these other little things become areas for division.” What specifically are the other “little things” Greear is addressing in his rant?
Perhaps it’s the fact that we keep bringing up the disparate treatment we notice when Greear and his ilk mete out church discipline. As we have stated numerous times, it seems to always be the little person that gets steam-rolled with heavy-handed church discipline, and often the infraction is minor. Meanwhile, the celebrities in charge apparently have arrived at a state of sinless perfection. They can do no wrong. In reality, many in their class are among the worst of sinners.
Max, one of our frequent commenters at TWW, succinctly stated how things operate within the SBC leadership:
“Within the upper echelons of SBC life is an inner ring of NeoCal dudebros who take care of each other, promoting many beyond their competence and character … until the potato becomes too hot to handle. It then becomes “Ashford who?” to protect their own potato skin.”
To illustrate Max’s point read the praise J.D. Greear heaped on ‘Pastor Johnny’ below:
After the Guidepost report revealed that ‘Pastor Johnny’ allegedly had sexually assaulted a woman it seems that perhaps the ‘great day’ for Southern Baptists wasn’t so great after all.
So we discernment bloggers speak out against the hypocrisy we see among SBC leaders and J.D. Greear, among others, becomes unhinged when he realizes he cannot blather away about how great he and his pals are without us “discernment bloggers” asking tough questions.
To borrow a line from Harry Truman, Dee and I “never gave anybody hell! [We] just told the truth and they thought it was hell.”
In light of our last article on Bruce Ashford, some have asked why the silence by the leaders in the SBC, SEBTS, and J.D. Greear’s The Summit Church regarding Ashford’s conduct. People wonder if Bruce Ashford has faced any church discipline, especially since he was an elder at The Summit Church.
We have not heard that any church discipline was administered to Bruce Ashford. Rather, in my opinion, leaders at both The Summit Church and SEBTS worked to keep Ashford’s actions quiet. This illustrates, once again, the hypocrisy of the many leaders who love church discipline if you or I are on the receiving end, but when it comes to them or one of their buddies, not so much.
I recently came across the book “Those Who Must Give an Account – A Study of Church Membership and Church Discipline.” The book was published in 2012 and it has not aged well.
The book contains 9 chapters, each chapter written by a different man, or in the case of chapter 8 Bruce Ashford and Danny Akin teamed up.
Check out the bibliography – numerous quotes from 9Marxists Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman, bad boy Mark Driscoll is quoted, and Josh Harris – the former bright star of Sovereign Grace Ministries who renounced his faith several years ago.
Endorsements come from Thomas White, J.D. Greear, Johnny Hunt, Paige Patterson, and Darrin Patrick, among others.
I now show you numerous quotes on all the benefits that come from church discipline. These are from chapter 8, co-authored by Danny Akin, President of SEBTS, and Bruce Ashford, the former Provost, and Professor at SEBTS.
Rank hypocrisy on exhibit folks. Is it any wonder the SBC is imploding? The blind have been leading the blind for years.
Okay, I read it and have only one comment . . . BARF
When church discipline extends to the pastoral staff as much as to the membership, it will have meaning.
Otherwise, I thought grace suggested we didn’t have to be sinless . . . just forgiven.
Judgment begins first with God’s church, His bride, who is looking pretty shabby right now. If the church refuses to discipline itself, then those terrible discernment bloggers step in. And, oh yeah, the newspapers like the Houston Chronicle. Government in the form of the DOJ. God will deal with those who violate his moral laws. Selfishly, I wish it was sooner rather than later, may He forgive me. How much harder does He have to strike before church leaders turn to Him in true repentance?
One to keep your eye on and a new addition via 2017 to the SBC: Greg Laurie, Calvary Chapel Super Apostle. He recently came out with a movie glorifying himself, Chuck Smith and Turbo-Liar and secret gay party fanatic: Lonnie Frisbee.
Some of the authors and endorsers could use some* church* discipline themselves.
(I accented the word *church* because I dream of beginning their disciplinary processes myself ……with some handcuffs, leg-irons, coarse sandpaper, and rubbing alcohol……. maybe use some of their own words against them, in a fancy-pants-fundy way of telling them just to grin and bear it for the glory of God.)
Hey! A girl can dream! Yes???
Rubbing alcohol: yeah, my granny and my momma used it on me every time I got scraped up, cut up …… blackberry briars and barbed wire with an isopropyl alcohol chaser…… what a mix. I wonder if these any of these guys are man enough to take it like a girl?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar) Boy, do I appreciate your ideas for punishment. And no, I doubt the guys are man enough to handle what your granny and momma dished out. My mom used to use mouthwash to clean my scrapes. Ouch. Something to think about, though….
The highlighted portions in this article are just so much utter nonsense. By that I mean that they make no sense. They are meaningless words.
Paige Patterson from the above: “I have often cringed at the irresponsibility of many Baptists in this area of “church membership““
Once again, let’s return to a conversation between Dever and Paige Patterson regarding priorities of discipline:
Dever to Patterson: ”We don’t need to spend this time talking about the abuses of church discipline. Boy, we understand they’re there, but they’re nowhere near that’s the main problem in most of our main churches (sic). It’s not personal vindictiveness, it’s so many things it’s not…”
Per the video, easy discipline targets appear to be recommended by Patterson over someone caught in some “heinous iniquity because you’re going to have sympathy problems there.” Rather, its recommended to target those who hasn’t been in church attendance in five years. Of them, Patterson says, “they’re not intending to come, and we owe them – – if we love them – – a confrontation.”
Rank hypocrisy indeed! To quote Johnny Hunt from one of the highlighted passages above: ‘If there is one great need within the context of our Southern Baptist churches, it is accountability.’
Wow. Just wow.
“As we have stated numerous times, it seems to always be the little person that gets steam-rolled with heavy-handed church discipline, and often the infraction is minor. Meanwhile, the celebrities in charge apparently have arrived at a state of sinless perfection. They can do no wrong. In reality, many in their class are among the worst of sinners.”
IMHO, they have arrived to a position of power that has nothing to do with, as you state, being sinless. They call the shots, aka king(s) of the hill. Raw power, that’s all. But it’s a temporary worldly power during this era when satan is the prince of this world. From the heavens, God rules and laughs at them, Ps. 2.
The very same situation of Jesus and Commoners vs religious elite. How did that go? The religious elite executed Jesus. Jesus, of the Commoner Class himself who never became elite – not even elite adjacent or inner circle – rose in triumph with heavenly not worldly power.
Among the 7 churches in Revelation, 2 had heavenly not worldly power:
2. The Church of Smyrna Remains Faithful Amidst Persecution (Revelation 2:8-11) and Poverty. NOT ELITE.
6. The Church of Philadelphia: Patiently Endured Despite Weaknesses (Rev 3:7-13); Jesus condemns their persecutors and promises that IF they remain faithful to Him, He will protect them from the “hour of trial” and make them pillars in God’s heavenly temple.
I woke up this morning having deep thoughts about church and how my experience over 50+ years is so very different from most of the regulars here. Christians are told in the scriptures to speak the truth to one another in love. This goes astray in two common ways: the truth is spoken, but without love and THE TRUTH ends up getting warped and it confuses people. This is what most all of you have experienced and how church discipline gets warped into something where there is no love and THE TRUTH is made hypocritical.
My experience is the opposite of that. The emphasis was placed not on truth but on love. This was many times in knee-jerk reaction to the abuses you are all so very familiar with. In my experience, there is a real attempt to love, but truth is sacrificed in order to better “love” people. Then it is LOVE that ends up getting warped instead. This is my own frustration with the church in America. I never saw the kind of abuses that come out of church discipline that the rest of you have. Where I went to church that kind of obvious abuse was not tolerated. Period. So instead of legalism and fundamentalism, both bad things, what I have experienced is lawlessness without any attempts at all to discipline anyone.
Examples: KP Yohannan, the billion dollar fraudster is invited to church in order to manipulate the flock and extract mammon out of it. When he was finally exposed, the head pastor could have issued an apology to everyone, but did not. This is lawlessness without personal discipline.
Example: certain single men are moving from church to church chasing skirts and up to no good in regards to the women in the church. They are looking for meat, the next victim. Church leadership is too nice to protect their own flock. One man moved from my church, where there was considerable damage to a friend of mine, to my previous church. I warned my own brother who was in some position of leadership over there. What did he do? Absolutely nothing.
Example: the church became the hippest, hottest, happening place to be on a Sunday morning. This attracted people in the town who call themselves Christians but were in fact looking for other married people to hook up with and have affairs. Soon the church was the talk of the town with affairs galore. According to Paul, there is not even supposed to be a hint of this going on, yet alone a hippie, free-love, fest. The pastor did nothing about this until God told him to shut down the Sunday Morning worship service. He did that and all these people went elsewhere. His church eventually shrank to less than 20, but there was no more open immorality in the married crowd! From his viewpoint this fixed the problem, though not really. The problem moved to the other hot churches in town and they became the center of gossip with more truth to it then they would have liked.
Final example: the guitar player for the worship team keeps showing up drunk early on Sunday mornings. In AA they would tell you to have an intervention, tough love, in order to address something that our scriptures condemn. Instead it is tolerated as the people in leadership define love in ways that are never, ever tough. Fast forward a bunch of years and this man has been “engaged” to the woman from example 2 for over a decade. They will not actually marry each other because they both have big issues, so instead they have a common-law marriage. The church they go to does what about that? Absolutely nothing.
I share this to explain that while you, when you hear the word “church discipline,” you think of abuse, with the truth of the scriptures twisted and distorted without love, what I think of is something in my experience which is NEVER, ever, ever practiced. My frustration is the lawlessness that this produces in my part of the church universal. It is defining love as being so nice that you never confront anyone, never protect the sheep from wolves, never apologize for being too lenient, too permissive. Instead, you place a convicted sex offender in a position of authority in order to “love the offender” and give him a chance to redeem himself. Welcome to my world. Just because this is not your own experience does not mean that this other reality does not actually exist.
‘ Of them, Patterson says, “they’re not intending to come, and we owe them – – if we love them – – a confrontation.” ‘
I am a “them”. I walked a way ….. tomorrow it will be 7 years and 1 month.
Confrontation. Ha! They can bring it on.
Paige Patterson protects and promotes sexual abusers, keeps their secrets, blames the victims, ……. and his discipline targets are the absentee human ATM cards.
What kind of great Christian leader is that?
That goes for the pulpit, too, Pastor Johnny.
Dear Paige, many Baptists are cringing these days at the irresponsibility of church leadership!
Been there done that. My granny and momma followed that treatment with a big swab of iodine. I screamed like a girl! 🙂
After that torture, I would go back outside and let my dog Ole Joe lick the wound and I was good to go again.
A topic that few preachers are willing to expound on. But if we don’t take an axe to the root of the tree, we will never stop the flow of aberrant belief and practice into the church.
Christ is coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle. We’ve got some washing and ironing to do before that happens.
Yep, no use for the pulpit to point a finger to the pew when three are pointing back at you.
Regarding leaders who claim to be true:
“Everyone knows that I am a pious man,” said King Herod to the Wise Men, when they inquired about the baby to be born the King of Israel, (line quote from “The Greatest Story Ever Told”).
We all know how Herod practiced his piety, in Bethlehem.
Speak truth to power, and power immediately wins, until truth is established for Eternity. The rest of the story – the greatest story.
– RCC including its many supreme authorities such as movements and quangoes, TGC, Church Society, new apostolics, Torontulated-Bethelated-Bromptosauruses, Piper, etc, not content with abolishing the eschaton (the actual one), pneumatology, prayer, providence, Ascension, and intellectual virtue, now claim to do away with our consciences and conversion and any meaning in baptisms.
– The F&M both does and doesn’t matter, individual belief doesn’t matter, independence from major personalities doesn’t matter
– never give your contact details to any religious organisation, only trusted private individuals.
– never state your religion on any form. At least, don’t choose from a given list.
– agnostic boys and girls, afraid of being guilt tripped by churches, get guilt tripped into contortions by the churches’ proxies
RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
Especially when such Rank is bestowed by Divine Right.
“THOU WAST BORN IN UTTER SIN, AND DOST THOU TEACH US, GOD’S ANOINTED?????”
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the powerless.”
— George Orwell, 1984
“RIGHTEOUS and PIOUS are WE, NOT THEE!”
When leaders get it wrong:
“The Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.
“For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you [religious leaders who rejected John the Baptist] say, ‘He has a demon.’”
The religious leaders were wrong about Jesus, the Son of God, and wrong about John, God’s prophet. That’s seriously getting it wrong.
All of the disciples were neither elite nor religious leaders. They were commoners, workers with jobs and families. Apparently the religious leaders of Jesus’ time were such a brohood, that Jesus pulled none of them for his group, the founding disciples of His church.
So, we’ve come full circle?
Pastor Johnny is accountable to GOD and GOD ALONE.
And GOD always smiles upon and blesses anything Pastor Johnny does.
Anything and Everything.
TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!
“I have the Absolute Right to do Anything to Anybody.”
— Caesar Caligula
If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck …
And so it is today. Who among the dudebros would Jesus pull?
What really jumped out at me is J.D. Greer rattling off what “defines” a good SBC member… and I thought, well, at least he lists what he thinks they are…….
I then go back to the words of Christ… if one wants to list what defines a “Christian”, or someone that is following Christ… I think I would start with Christ stating that “love thy neighbor as thyself.. all of the other laws hang on this… and then I would think of the beatitudes.. then I think of what Paul says about love..
Humm… I do not really care it J.D. Greer is not happy with my posting… I think we should be holding each other to the standards that Christ set, not SBC… and I am chief amoung those that does NOT live up to the standards that Christ list…
“Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
They started believing their own publicity
Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
Funny how these great “teachers” of the Bible missed that one, isn’t it?
From the OP: “Greear is speaking about people like Dee and me, you know the type – we supposedly cause dissension among the ranks of the 46,000 whom Greear just told us are unified on all the major tenants of the SBC Faith and Message. Greear goes on to say, ‘these other little things become areas for division.’”
I guess one way to create unity in all but “the little things” is to kick out Saddleback Church.
Just like one way for church leaders to create unity within their congregations is to kick out individual members: https://www.whyhavewefasted.org/a-letter-to-my-friends-at-our-former-church/
The video has a bit of a “meta” feel to it. Wasn’t BA recently sort of “canceled” by the leadership of Summit Church? And on account of things that were being pointed out by “discernment ‘bloggers”. Perhaps I’m misremembering.
Regarding the “essential” character of the BFM, hasn’t that been significantly revised in recent decades? Is it reasonable to make that the standard, when it is malleable?
Personally, I think that Protestants should be allowed to protest, and to divide over whatever minutiae strikes their consciences as significant.
Luther was an early discernment ‘blogger, though admittedly in a much ‘cooler’ medium, and we shouldn’t look back.
And people complained ant the time about this newfangled technology called “the printing press” and how it let anyone with a few coins put their opinions out there for the whole world to read.
And look what that got us! “Those Who Must Give an Account,” among others.
He’s what they used to call a ‘mountebank’, a word that’s gone out of fashion.
Printing press and the internet. For all to read and comment. Accountability.
I have known for some years about the incidences that have been reported happening at JPUSA–a christian commune in Chicago. I had heard about there being a documentary made but I have not come across it until today. I just finished listening to it. It is certainly rated “R” and it is deeply upsetting to watch, so a trigger warning here.
The first “Christian” rock band that I listened to was the Rez Band which had two of the leaders of the commune: Glenn Kaiser and John Herrin, the lead singer and drummer. I soon was getting the quarterly magazine which was the first place that I saw Christian Investigative journalists digging into scandals. They broke the story about “Satan Seller” Mike Warnke being fake and a liar. They also broke stories about a kind of counseling done where therapists (Not Biblical Counselors) were doing hypnotism basically and then implanting false memories regarding Satanic Ritual Abuse into people with active imaginations that they started to think were true. A counselor at the church I went to in college hired one of these quacks, then got sued and lost the whole business, so malpractice was proven in our own courts. I thought that JPUSA, these were good guys because they were doing the same kinds of things that Dee, Deb, Warren and Todd do and have done.
I bought every album as soon as they came out. I introduced a friend to them who was idealistic. He never felt accepted into his own family of origin. He later became a roommate for a time. Later, he wanted to check out living at a commune, so he borrowed a sleeping bag from me and left Phoenix for Chicago. He stayed there for some months and then notified that he was coming back. A bed bug infestation went through his building his last week, so he left my sleeping bag there and came back. He was neither so disappointed to be totally disillusioned nor so satisfied that he wanted to return soon. Instead he told me about how filthy the common areas were as they were no one’s responsibility so they were never cleaned. That told me all I needed to know.
Now after watching the documentary I am just furious. The sick things that are tolerated in what call themselves churches are just demonic. There is no English word foul enough to describe what JPUSA was to its own children. If you think you can stomach the documentary, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V4G00Gl51c
“But no one better hold me accountable, or I’ll sue!”
Since it was basically revised by a hefty dose of concealment and misdirection, along with a lot of political manipulation, I’m thinking the answer is, “No.”
And he nailed his blog for all to see on the church door! Some of TWW’s pieces should be church bulletin inserts across America, to make sure the pew-peons get their heads out of the sand.
Someone once said “Leaders inspire accountability through their ability to accept responsibility before they place blame.”
Has it been a “little thing” for Greear and his NeoCal dudebros to lead a rebellion against mainline SBC non-Calvinist belief and practice?! He has played a key role in wrenching SBC out of the hands of millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists … reformed theology has not been the theology of Southern Baptists for the last 150 years. Mohler, Greear et al. have been on a campaign to take the SBC back to it’s Calvinistic roots, without asking millions if they wanted to go there! A “little thing”?!!
JPUSA owns land in Bushnell, Illinois where they put on a rock fest called Cornerstone.
We’ve gone as a family. Pretty good event, but we stick together as a family.
What the doc says about the Chicago commune being a haven for pedos preying on children is evil – what goes on. Excellent documentary. Tragic situation.
This documentary on YouTube for free is another great reason for the internet to open up what really goes on with Christian institutions and Christian orgs. Some of these orgs seem to be more like organized crime.
There was also a magazine of the same name best known for exposing Mike Warnke as a total fraud.
I think they also did an expose on another “Former High Priest of Satan” on the Testimony trail, John Todd — who turned out to be far WEIRDER than Warnke could ever be, almost a predecessor of QAnon in the Grand Unified Conspiracy bubble.
If it weren’t for the discernment bloggers…
1. We might have signed a church covenant upon joining a church.
I’m sure that corporately there are many more scenarios of being saved from catastrophe, for the little people, the everyday people in church.
Feel free to add to the list.
Together we are better. Ever grateful for the discernment bloggers.
They use to put on a festival. Some years ago I heard that the bad press shut the thing down. I also came across this which somehow I missed last year: https://julieroys.com/illinois-pastor-taylor-jobless-mishandled-abuse-investigation/
I saw the Rez Band three times. The last was in the Vineyard Church I was attending at the time. I had no idea how awful these people really were. Millstones all around for the leaders. Inexcusable.
After watching this documentary, one wants to go take a shower.
OTOH, the doc creator evidences enormous courage of this former community member who grew up in this evil Christian community, Jaime Prater. His parents also are interviewed on camera, to their credit. Also very courageous.
Others who have experienced evil in their Christian communities could follow his example. Do interviews. Create a documentary. Save lives.
Documentary evidence could turn around current trends of the flourishing of the secret evil underworld of our Christian communities and institutions.
1 John 1 says the disciples share what they have seen with their eyes and heard with their ears. Jesus.
A witness is powerful evidence. Truth. Telling the truth can be risky. Lying and deception are also risky and carry consequences. Sometimes the difference between truth and lies is life and death.
2. We might have wandered blindly into a New Calvinist church, falling victim to aberrant belief and practice.
3. We might have experienced discipline at the hands of immature NeoCal pastors – shunned and excommunicated if we questioned them.
4. We might have left our children under the care of a youth leader we didn’t know.
5. We might have fully trusted the man called “Pastor”, just because he held that title. (blind faith is dangerous)
6. We might be subordinated because of our gender, experiencing what it feels like to be treated as second-class citizens in the Kingdom.
7. We might have been ensnared by a cult just because others call it Christian.
THAT was one of the factors when I got sucked into an Enc-of-the-World “Cult” in the Seventies.
This was a time of great Cult Paranoia in the Christianese Bubble; Cult-Watch group after Cult-Watch group sniffing out CULTs CULTs CULTs like Witchfinders-General during the Burning Times. Ponting Fingers and Denouncing the usual suspects like the Mormons, JWs, and many now forgotten. With major blind spots that rendered them useless:
1) El Biggo. They approached CULT(TM) entirely from the angle of Theology, Theology, Theology, Theology, and Theology, analyzing their targets Theology, Christology, Soteriology, Eschatology, and Ology-ology through an electron microscope. Completely indifferent to how said target acted towards their pewsitters/tithing units.
2) The One True Theology of their electron microscopes was standard Born-Again Rapture-Ready Fundagelical, i.e. the spawn of Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick. Denunciations made in Chrisitanese including a lot of SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! on its chapter-and-verse Zip Codes. With or without twelve-syllable Theology Theobabble.
3) What happens if the de facto Cult stomping on its pewsitters HAS the Eaxct Same Correct Theology (i.e. Jack Chick + Hal Lindsay) as the Cult-sniffers? You know, like Koinonia House CHRISTIAN Fellowship in Whittier CA that messed up my head? Not only do they slip under the radar with their Correct IFF, they get the Blessing of the Cult-sniffers as Real True CHRISTIANS. Which the 20-year-old Elders (every thought guided by The Holy Spirit) of said not-a-Cult weaponize as a further weapon to keep their pewsitters Saved, Indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and crushed down.
The only reason I’m not still waiting for The Rapture (Any Minute Now) in their Not-a-Cult Compound endlessly reciting SCRIPTURE is I discovered SF litfandom and Dungeons & Dragons. Which liberated me from the constant Guilt and Fear. And a lot of the damage is still there.
My Christian experience parallels yours on the surface. I was in the Vineyard for many years. I listened to Res Band. I also went to their concerts/bought their albums (along with so many others back in the day Servant, DeGarmo and Key, Sweet Comfort, Phil Keaggy – the list of artists could go on). Actually, Rez Band’s music was instrumental (no pun intended) in bringing me to God. Way back, when I was so very much younger and was wide-eyed new Christian, I sure wanted to go the the Cornerstone Festival, but Chicago was a long drive from Denver. I shudder to think what I might have gotten sucked into had I gone.
At any rate, I started to watch the video you posted a link to and had to stop after a bit. I could see where it was headed and I am unable to sit through stuff like this. Thankfully, not because of any personal trauma, but still. Thank you for raising awareness of JPUSA.
Yet another once respected group found to be rooting around in filth and depravity. I remember reading Warnke’s book and I also remember when JPUSA published their expose on him. The irony of their being the ones to expose Mike Warnke while abuse of this nature was happening is . You are correct, there are no words foul enough (in any language) to describe what is done in the name of Christ and is way too often reported here at TWW and other places.
If Jesus overturned the money changers tables in the temple,
what must he be doing over what He sees going on in Christianity today.
If Jesus wept over Jerusalem,
what must he be doing over what He sees going on in Christianity today.
For those interested (and may not be able to watch a video for whatever reason), here is a link to one article (there are many out there) discussing the issues Jesperson mentioned above regarding JPUSA:
There’s a saying in my area that someone with “their head in the sand” refuse to think about unpleasant facts, neglecting and ignoring things to maintain the status quo. Aberrant belief and practice with authoritarian leaders prosper where folks in the pew bury their heads in the sand. It is happening at a church near you, I’m sure.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Not every ministry aired on TBN is “of God.”
A couple of more resources about JPUSA and the creator of the video Jesperson linked to above for those interested:
In interview by Boz Tchividjian posted on the GRACE website in 2014
An archived version of a very long article posted in 2015:
Without a doubt Max.
But I had a more colorful euphemism than ‘sand’.
When you’re talking TBN, more like “NO ministry aired on TBN”.
Just like Rush Limbaugh, Anton LaVey, Elron Hubbard, and Adolf Hitler.
This reminds me of a grouping I knew of, which was being placed in proximity with individuals or parishes who needed to be “minded” (punished or manoeuvred), but which grouping was worse than or equally bad as those “culprits”.
It’s also the highly respectable modus operandi of Ole Anthony, whose teachings are almost indistinguishable from most that I’ve heard countless times during over 40 years (functional Ascension deniers).
Perhaps the complainers see us as a gang of Ole Anthonys about to spring a Tilton on them? Doctrinal truth being of lesser concern for them.
One more for my ever-growing list of things to do if considering a new church: Ask the pastor, “What would I need to do wrong in order to be disciplined here?”
If the pastor looks confused, you might be in a good place.
Indeed! If he starts to immediately rattle off disciplinary offenses, take the first off-ramp!
But the bad uns never do that. Talking about doctrine is gossip.
I remember all the buzz about Rez Band from the Eighties.
First band to fuse Gospel and Heavy Metal, and like all early CCM they had an uphill fight to be accepted.
In rmainstream ock & pop music, the Sixties was a time of wild experimentation (a lot more than “Dope is Groovy” and “Get Out of Vietnam!”) but by the Seventies what sold the best had taken over (at least on the AM stations, which played Bubblegum while the FM stations gave you eight straight hours of The Grateful Dead).
CCM used to lag about 20 years behind the mainstream (Christians are famous for being Late Adopters) but in the mainstream things loosened up about ten years later (in the Eighties) while CCM (now called “Worship”) stayed stuck in the everyone-sounds-the-same-and-the-same-is-what-sells of Seventies music.
“It’s not so much that Power corrupts as Power attracts the already-corrupt and the easliy-corrupted.”
— Frank Herbert, author of Dune
Just like Elron Hubbard, Rush Limbaugh, Anton LaVey, and Adolf Hitler.
Once you go behind that event horizon, there’s no way back.