Why Did the SBC Seal the Records of the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force Deliberations for 15 Years (2025?)

 


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“Truth never damages a cause that is just.” ― Mahatma Gandhi


I have had one heckuva day on Twitter and I’m debating whether or not I should post about it. In the meantime, finding myself irritated at the SBC who received some warning on my twitter du jour, I thought I might remind our dear readers of the way the SBC plays with its donors (that means you, you pew sitting ATM machines.)

We are still 5 years away from the great unveiling and I recently saw some comments on this subject at another SBC blog. Since I last broached this subject back in 2010 when no one was reading my blog, I thought you might find it interesting.

So, here’s what I wrote back in 2010.

Recently, a thoughtfully educated student at Liberty University called your glamorous blogettes, “morons”. Obviously, his superior intellect judged our intelligence lacking. We were sooo hurt. However, since reviewing the brouhaha over the Great Commission Resurgence (GCR), I am beginning to fear that he was right. Why? Because I just don’t get it.
One of the first things I learned when I became a Christian was the Great Commission. As Jesus was about to rejoin His Father, He left us with an important message.

From Matthew 28:18-20 in the NIV:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Bible Gateway)

The Great Commission quite simply means to preach the Gospel to everyone, make disciples of everyone, and teach everyone to obey what Christ has commanded. This is no big secret. Jesus did not convene a conclave to secretly plot out his scheme for world domination. None of the disciples held powwows to conspiratorially decide to “spread the Good News”. They just did it. They witnessed so much that they were arrested, tortured, sent to the lions, and run out of town. Yet, they did not stop from proclaiming the Good News…

However, today’s SBC Great Commission Resurgence Task Force has mandated that their discussions regarding this GCR plan be handled like some sort of black ops worthy of an episode on “24”. (Maybe “Get Smart” would be a better description)

By the way, just because an organization calls itself “Baptist” doesn’t mean that it is behaving in a Christian manner. In fact, I think the GCR leadership is made up of a bunch of “WUSSES!” Yep, scaredy cats, mama’s boys, weenies, jazzbo’s, etc., etc.

Why? Because I can’t find one explanation that shows these folks to have any strength of conviction. They are just plumb afraid that people will be “mad at them” if they hear about the proceedings of such meetings. Poor babies……

So, this “stupid” woman has a simple question? WHY??????????????

Let’s pause for a moment to get into the appropriate mood. Mel Brooks is a genius!

 

In an apparent state of shock, Wade Burleson broached this subject in 2025: The Year that the Deliberation Records for the GCR Committee Will Be Unsealed.

Norman Jameson, the editor for The Biblical Recorder, brought to my attention something that shocked me. The Great Commission Resurgence Task Force has announced it will lock up the record of its deliberations for 15 years. That’s right, fifteen YEARS. Recording made during the deliberations of the committee are to be sealed for 180 months, not to be seen or heard by Southern Baptists, and opened prior to the Southern Baptist Convention in 2025. Norman has written an excellent editorial on the GCR Committee’s decision.

I understand why the CIA seals records. I recognize why the Pentagon or the Special Intelligence Division of Military Intelligence buries minutes of proceedings,  but for heaven’s sake, I have no clue why Southern Baptists would want, ever even allow,  any committee of our Convention to “seal” records for 15 years. You would think the Committee actually discovered Jimmy Hoffa’s alive and well in Jersey, or maybe they have secret photographs of Area 51 and now know that it is an alien sanctuary. Why in the world would anything in Christian ministry need to be covered up or sealed for fifteen years?

I can’t help but think that part of our dysfunction as a Convention is the same problems that paralyzes churches from moving forward in ministry. We have leadership who don’t want others to know what they are really thinking, or really doing, or really planning. Leadership believes that since they know best, and since God gave them the authority to lead, then everybody else just needs to remain in the dark and “trust leadership.”

In 2010, an attempt was made to unseal the records as reported in SBC messengers defeat attempt to open task force records

Al Mohler was quite against this attempt at transparency.

Messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Orlando, Fla., June 15-16 defeated an attempt to unseal written and audio recordings of Great Commission Resurgence task force proceedings.

The task force recently announced it would seal the records for 15 years at the Southern Baptist Historical Library & Archives in Nashville, Tenn.

Jay Adkins of First Baptist Church in Westwego, La., introduced a motion to make the records available “in the spirit of openness and transparency” for review by any interested Southern Baptist.

In debate on his motion, the only one scheduled by the SBC Committee on Order Business, Adkins said Southern Baptist would benefit from “seeing the process” of the task force. “What better way could we as a body come together?” he asked.

But task force members argued against the effort to open the records immediately, saying it would require them to break promises of confidentiality they made with Southern Baptists they consulted with in their deliberations.

We promised them confidentiality during deliberations,” said Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and a task force member. “This recommendation would require this task force to break its word.”

It would also “rob us of our own historical record” and have a chilling effect on future committees, he said: “The consequence of this motion is no future convention committees could record their proceedings because they would be compromised form the beginning.

SBC Voices posted Radically Redefining Transparency in the SBC: Part 2

I now turn to the final argument used by the GCRTF to keep their records sealed.  This argument offers the most insight into the philosophy of leadership that currently holds sway within the leadership of the SBC .  This philosophy was expressed most clearly in the following two quotes from the debate:

The consequence of allowing unsealed records is that no future convention committee will indeed allow the recording of it deliberations and meetings because it would be compromised from the beginning.  Dr. R. Albert Mohler, President, SBTS

If we vote to unseal these records, then future committees will be forced to do their work without the benefit of tape recorders and transcripts and we will lose forever the history of their important work. . . . Do not sacrifice history on the altar of politics.  Dr. Greg Wills, Professor, SBTS

History has indeed been sacrificed on the altar of politics, but Dr. Wills is wrong when he ascribes the motivation of politics to those who would open the records of the Task Force proceedings for all Southern Baptists to see.  In response to the assertion that future committees will simply not keep records if they will be forced to share those records, one must ask Dr. Mohler and Dr. Wills, “Why?”  Why would future committees not allow records to be made of their deliberations?  Who would force the members of these committees to purposefully fail to keep any records of their proceedings?  After all,  I thought the committees of the S.B.C. serve the churches of this Convention..

Indeed, why the need for secrecy?

After 5 years, is there a Great Commission Resurgence?

In the meantime, while awaiting the big reveal in 2025, we must consider if the Great Commission Task Force’s public plans have born fruit? According to the Christian Examiner in After 5 years, is there a Great Commission Resurgence?

Unfortunately, despite the broad scope of recommendations by the Great Commission Task Force, as yet, these reforms have not turned around the negative trends identified as signs the “Great Commission commitment is diminishing among us.

There are 5 years left before the vaults will be unsealed. Here is your challenge.

I promise to do everything in my power to keep this post up until 2025 and beyond. I charge you with predicting what is the reason the deliberations of this august task force were sealed. All predictions, both humorous and serious, will be accepted.

While you think about your response, I leave an important song about Secret Agent Man. (Dee is in the green dancing in the background.)

Comments

Why Did the SBC Seal the Records of the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force Deliberations for 15 Years (2025?) — 149 Comments

  1. Dee, I don’t have a twitter account so can’t tweet, but I’m really sorry about how you were treated there today. From what I can tell you’ve been more than patient and kind by holding back on the information you have. Especially considering how you’ve been treated.

  2. Justine
    I knew what I was doing and anticipated the response. Stuff has been happening since October and last night I got confirmation of some information along with some reports of emails that are flying to and fro. There is more to come. I’m trying to figure out how and when. Taking a break for a couple of days. It accomplished what I wanted. People will start wondering about what’s going on.

  3. Here’s my prediction (I’m not sure if it is humorous or serious). Perhaps the great commission had something to do with Calvinization of the denomination? The task force probably figured it would take 15 years to accomplish that by converting all SBC seminaries to reformed doctrine, put New Calvinist leaders at all SBC entities, plant thousands of new churches with YRR pastors, and takeover traditional churches by stealth and deception. Just a wild guess, but the only resurgence SBC has experienced since 2010 is an explosion of Calvinism, not a conversion of lost souls. Whatever the real reason, it’s just not a very Christian thing to do … for a handful of SBC elite to hide things from SBC’s millions of members. Humorous or serious? … I don’t know whether to laugh or cry about such nonsense.

  4. Gee, no need to seal them. Seems they just put a lot of extra attention on the records by sealing them.

  5. “Why Did the SBC Seal the Records of the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force Deliberations for 15 Years (2025?)”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    so that generation of SBC bigwigs could get their golden retirement parachutes and live long enough to enjoy them?

    (gawwwwwd, they make it sound like area 51)

  6. My bet it says very little…. it was all gimmick to inflate the “importance” of the members

  7. Statute of limitation will run out for the abusers they helped give cover (think SGM, CJ Mahaney). No legal liability and retirement packages still in fact.

  8. Starting in 2025, they’ll say Calvinism is the errant theology that failed to make Jesus great again so now Socinius will be the source of the lost wisdom of the romantic past.

    My serious guess is that it involves “church revitalization” schemes.

  9. dee,

    I remember your posts from the fall.

    I’m glad to hear today was part of your master plan. I will pray for you. I know that you’ll handle it well.

  10. My perspective is that these men think far too highly of ‘themselves’ and far too little of Christ and his work.

    Secret tapes . . . folly and fools.

  11. Max,

    This could be a good guess. And it’s potentially relevant to discussion about evangelism/ the Great Commission.

  12. Stan: “church revitalization” schemes

    Which, considering current SBC national leadership, really means “Calvinism revitalization.”

    Did the task force give Mohler free rein for 15 years to Calvinize the denomination? He had already been campaigning to return SBC back to its Civil War Calvinist roots. Consider the transition of leadership at key SBC entities since 2010 when the records were sealed:

    2010: Kevin Ezell became President of SBC’s North American Mission Board and its church planting program (aka reformed theology planting) … he was formerly Mohler’s pastor (a Calvinist)

    2012: Jason Allen became President of SBC’s Midwest Baptist Theological Seminary … he was formerly Mohler’s executive assistant at SBTS (a Calvinist)

    2013: Russell Moore became President of SBC’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission … he was formerly Mohler’s Vice President at SBTS (a Calvinist)

    2014: David Platt became President of SBC’s International Mission Board … a leader in the YRR movement, idolized by SBC’s new generation of pastors (a Calvinist)

    2019: Adam Greenway became President of SBC’s Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary … he was formerly a dean at Mohler’s Southern Seminary

    2025: GCRTF records will be unsealed … Al Mohler turns 66, retirement age

    Just sayin’ …

  13. SH: evangelism/ the Great Commission

    How can two distinctly different soteriologies exist in a single denomination? New Calvinists do not preach whosoever-will-may-come, which was the default evangelistic message of Southern Baptists for the last 150 years … until Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists came along. There is no denying that the theology of SBC’s slave-holding founders was Calvinism … they even felt that sovereign God was on their side in the War until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist for one and half centuries. During that time, the SBC was a great evangelistic soul-winning denomination around the world. No longer … is the Great Commission really the mission now?

  14. “Do not sacrifice history on the altar of politics,” so says Dr. Wills. What an incredible crock. When did the Great Commission become political? O, yes, now I remember when SBC fundamentalists politically took over the SBC, back in the days when Paige and Dorothy were in control. Those documents and tapes should be unsealed today! Back in the early 2000s when the administration of Calvin Seminary was in the process of firing me (the first full-time female faculty member in 125 years) they tried–and partially succeeded–to “seal the environment” I wanted all documents pertaining to me available for all to see. The President demanded that we “seal the environment.” I bet that some of this SBC information relates to women—particularly women missionaries. In the early years of the SBC, missionary women far outnumbered men, and women carried the major load of Great Commission work. But this has all changed since the political takeover by the fundamentalists many years ago. I don’t trust that bunch at all. And why is 2025 a magic year? Do they think everyone will be dead by then—–or raptured naked into heaven? The sealing not only reminds me of my own situation at CTS, but also of Mark Driscoll stealing mission funds to promote his books. So there could be some shenanigans along that line as well.

  15. Ruth Tucker: I bet that some of this SBC information relates to women—particularly women missionaries.

    David Platt, during his tenure at SBC’s International Mission Board, recalled over 1,000 foreign missionaries … many of them women and many of them non-Calvinist. This was during the infamous “sealed record” period.

  16. Ruth Tucker,

    “The sealing not only reminds me of my own situation at CTS, but also of Mark Driscoll stealing mission funds to promote his books. So there could be some shenanigans along that line as well.”
    +++++++++++++++

    shenanigans, indeed. cooked up by the true farts in the elevator.

    (…and i was surprised at how hard it was to find the right verb for ‘shenanigans’)

    this silly religion of mine is run by 12-year old boy-autocrats.

    i once watched the lord of the flies…. it just came to mind.

  17. Max,

    IMHO – and what do I know – the bottom line is $$$.

    At some point the voluntary aspect of collections (with the up & down of economy) has not met the expectations of those building their dynasties. The paradigm shift has to do with shoring up their treasure, that in turn, keeps their power in place. Power & profits, from, unfortunately, the little guy that just wants to faithfully participate in the Body of Christ & serve their Lord. Simple faith & faithful living is not good enough/satisfying for the dynasty builders.

  18. Wade Burleson, when he was president of the SBC, they wouldn’t let him have access? Which department of the SBC pulls the strings?

    Could the sealing of the records be a way to avoid the statute of limitations somewhere?

  19. The sealing of records only works if there are limited number of copies, and when there are only a limited number of copies, it is not hard to destroy or delete things that the custodians of the information reckon had best not ever see the light of day.

    This looks fishy on principle and I would not be shocked if in a future Age when every secret is revealed, it is found that some of the records had vanished by the date at which they were to be unsealed.

  20. Ava Aaronson,

    “Simple faith & faithful living is not good enough/satisfying for the dynasty builders.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    yes, simple faith & faithful living doesn’t pay. which is precisely the point, as i see it.

    Jesus doesn’t pay. (turns out Jesus doesn’t sell well either — abstract, hyperbolic, he didn’t want money and expressly didn’t want power…) too challenging to the mind & heart.

    therefore, the focus on paul. you can read all sorts of power plays and pyramid schemes into it.

  21. Ruth Tucker: Back in the early 2000s when the administration of Calvin Seminary was in the process of firing me (the first full-time female faculty member in 125 years) they tried–and partially succeeded–to “seal the environment” I wanted all documents pertaining to me available for all to see.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other religion; for the most part, the honchos that run these outfits are men who are scared you know whatless of the primal power of women.

  22. elastigirl: (gawwwwwd, they make it sound like area 51)

    Gang, I just realized that the Statler Brothers put coded proof of alien life in “Flowers on the Wall.” They even give the rank and surname of the officer who gave them the info:

    Playin’ solitaire till dawn with a deck of 51,
    Smokin’ cigarettes and watchin’ Captain Kangaroo…”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyyTPsSTM7U

  23. Brian,

    “Would the neo-cals be considered hyperdispensationalist?”
    +++++++++++++++

    ….i’m better at bigfoot.

  24. Brian: Wade Burleson, when he was president of the SBC, they wouldn’t let him have access?

    Wade was never SBC President. I believe we was president of the Oklahoma convention.

  25. Max,

    It’s an excellent question, & I don’t understand how it happened either. Kinda feels like the old frog being cooked in a pot- I do not trust Mohler first of all, & he seems to be a Popish figure with this group. So many similes come to mind. And you know, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Patterson was (deservedly) allowed to be the sacrificial lamb carried out of Dodge primarily because he doesn’t fit that New Calvinist mold, not because of any great concern about his enabling of abuse. Akin really doesn’t either & while he’s not perfect, I worry about him a bit.

    Even if this isn’t what it’s about, behaving like the Warren Commission is more than concerning. I need to look up who was on that subcommittee, unless someone else has it at their fingertips.

  26. And Dee, lots of love. Don’t mind telling you I had some tears on Twitter today. The stakes are so high & I’m sure your heart has already broken.

  27. SH: Kinda feels like the old frog being cooked in a pot

    Southern Baptists have had evangelism boiled out of them and a new generation without the Cross of Christ on their lips has taken over the SBC kingdom; predestined I suppose.

  28. SH: behaving like the Warren Commission is more than concerning. I need to look up who was on that subcommittee, unless someone else has it at their fingertips

    It was a ‘task force’, pushed for by Mohler:

    “Southern Seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr.’s motion calling for the formation of such a task force”

    https://news.sbts.edu/2009/06/24/hunt-names-18-member-gcr-task-force/

    June 24, 2009
    The members of the Great Commission Resurgence task force include:

    — Ronnie Floyd (chairperson), pastor, FBC Springdale, Ark.
    — Jim Richards, executive director, Southern Baptists of Texas Convention
    — Frank Page, pastor, FBC, Taylors, S.C.
    — David Dockery, president, Union University
    — Simon Tsoi, first vice chairman, International Mission Board
    — Donna Gaines, Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, Tenn.
    — Al Gilbert, pastor, Calvary Baptist Church, Winston-Salem, N.C.
    — J.D. Greear, pastor, Summit Church, Durham, N.C.
    — Tom Biles, director of missions, Tampa Bay Association, Executive Committee member
    — Danny Akin, president, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
    — R. Albert Mohler Jr., president, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    — John Drummond, St. Andrews Baptist Church, Panama City, Fla.
    — Harry Lewis, North American Mission Board
    — Mike Orr, pastor, FBC, Chipley, Fla.
    — Roger Spradlin, pastor, Valley Baptist Church, Bakersfield, Calif., Executive Committee member
    — Robert White, executive director, Georgia Baptist Convention
    — Ken Whitten, pastor, Idlewild Baptist Church, Tampa, Fla.
    — Ted Traylor, Olive Baptist Church, Pensacola, Fla

  29. Four were added later, for a show of diversity:

    http://www.bpnews.net/30852/johnny-hunt-adds-4-to-gcr-task-force

    “an African American…a Hispanic…an additional woman…and a representative of the Northeast region”

    — Larry Grays, senior pastor, Midtown Bridge Church, Atlanta, Ga.
    — Ruben Hernandez, associate Spanish pastor, Prestonwood Baptist Church, Plano, Tex.
    — Kathy Ferguson, Pinnacle Hills campus of First Baptist Church, Springdale, Ark.
    — John Cope, senior pastor, Keystone Community Fellowship, North Wales, Pa.

  30. Jerome: “Southern Seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr.’s motion calling for the formation of such a task force”

    Then I suspect that Mohler also took the lead to seal the records for whatever reason. I still have a suspicion that the “C” word had something to do with it since Mohler was involved … but it may be something less harmless like embezzling SBC funds 🙂

  31. Jerome: The members of the Great Commission Resurgence task force include: …

    Hard to believe that many Southern Baptists could keep their mouth shut for 15 years! (I know, I was one for over 70 years … they like to gossip)

  32. Max: I suspect that Mohler also took the lead to seal the records

    Remember, Mohler was a member of the secret society Dodeka (the world still doesn’t know what that was all about).

  33. Succession of Convention Presidents:

    2014-2016 SBC President = Ronnie Floyd (GCR task force chairman)
    [Floyd had lost in 2006, this time he was was nominated by Mohler]

    2016-2018 SBC President = Steve Gaines (husband of GCR task force member Mrs. Donna Gaines)
    (GCR task force member JD Greear ran as well, runoff between them cancelled when Greear dropped out for Gaines)

    2018-2020 SBC President JD Greear (GCR task force member)
    (nominated by GCR task force member Ken Whitten, message pushed was that Greear ‘deserved it’ for graciously steeping aside in 2016)

    and now Mohler (GCR task force member) is running to succeed Greear:

    http://www.bpnews.net/53859/mohler-i-will-accept-nomination-as-sbc-president

  34. Presidents of SBC Executive Committee:

    2010-2018 Frank Page (GCR task force member)

    2019-present RonnieFloyd (GCR task force chairman)

  35. Muff Potter,

    Smart men make allies of women and they usually live long and prosper.
    And the dolts who don’t and won’t?
    They go the way of the T-rex.

  36. Muff Potter,

    “It doesn’t matter if it’s fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other religion; for the most part, the honchos that run these outfits are men who are scared you know whatless of the primal power of women.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    they must be scared of more than just women. is it fear of change? fear of freedom, for oneself and for others?

    what is it about fundamentalism that attracts scared, insecure men?

    is it that they need control, and strict rules give them a sense of control? a need for predictability?

    well, apparently a need for power over, as well.

    seems to me it makes the ability to appreciate and enjoy beauty and pleasure quite difficult. maybe they’re scared of those things, too.

  37. elastigirl:
    Brian,

    “Would the neo-cals be considered hyperdispensationalist?”
    +++++++++++++++

    ….i’m better at bigfoot.

    True Calvinist, ( if they are also reformed) are as far from dispensationalist as one can get. )

  38. Max: Hard to believe that many Southern Baptists could keep their mouth shut for 15 years!

    Hmmm… Proof that they are not really Southern Baptists? A plot to destroy the SBC by alien infiltration?

  39. Ken F (aka Tweed): destroy the SBC by alien infiltration?

    Mainline Southern Baptists (multiple millions of non-Calvinists) would consider the tenets of reformed theology an alien message. Unfortunately, they trust their leaders and have been complacent as the “Quiet Revolution” takes place in their midst. They will wake up too late.

  40. Jerome: 2010-2018 Frank Page (GCR task force member)

    Fell from grace due to moral failure.

    Jerome: and now Mohler (GCR task force member) is running to succeed Greear

    A signal to his New Calvinist army that General Mohler has successfully captured all key SBC entities for the new reformation (seminaries, publishing house, mission agencies). This surrender was accomplished with hardly a shot from SBC’s millions of non-Calvinists … it’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen!

  41. Max: 2010: Kevin Ezell became President of SBC’s North American Mission Board and its church planting program (aka reformed theology planting) … he was formerly Mohler’s pastor (a Calvinist)

    2012: Jason Allen became President of SBC’s Midwest Baptist Theological Seminary … he was formerly Mohler’s executive assistant at SBTS (a Calvinist)

    2013: Russell Moore became President of SBC’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission … he was formerly Mohler’s Vice President at SBTS (a Calvinist)

    2014: David Platt became President of SBC’s International Mission Board … a leader in the YRR movement, idolized by SBC’s new generation of pastors (a Calvinist)

    2019: Adam Greenway became President of SBC’s Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary … he was formerly a dean at Mohler’s Southern Seminary

    & whom did Greenway promptly install as ‘Theologian in Residence’ at Southwestern Seminary?

    GCR task force member David Dockery!

    https://swbts.edu/news/releases/renowned-baptist-theologian-evangelical-leader-david-s-dockery-join-southwestern/

    Dockery: “What a joyful privilege it will be to serve as the first theologian-in-residence…I am deeply thankful to Dr. Adam Greenway for his invitation”

    (This is the plum post Paige Patterson was to have had at retirement)

    plus, Russell Moore and David Platt being Council members of Calvinist fraternity The Gospel Coalition alongside GCR task force members Mohler, Akin, and Dockery.

  42. Jerome: This is the plum post Paige Patterson was to have had at retirement

    I’m not a Paige Patterson fan, but he was an extreme anti-Calvinist voice in SBC life – he even debated Al Mohler. He tried to hold back attempts to Calvinize the denomination. But he became strangely silent after his GCRTF participation.

    Frank Page, who became President of the SBC Executive Committee following the GCRTF meetings, also dropped his Calvinism attacks. (some say that this position is the most powerful office in the SBC). Page had even written a book “Trouble With The Tulip” in 2000 to inform Southern Baptists of this aberrant theology. He, too, became strangely silent on Calvinism after GCRTF.

    Hmmmm …

  43. Max: Unfortunately, they trust their leaders and have been complacent as the “Quiet Revolution” takes place in their midst. They will wake up too late.

    I completely agree. I was a member of a SBC church and had no idea this was going on. I did not start diving into this until New-Calvinism destroyed the faith of one of my sons. Before then, I had heard of “reformed” but could not describe it, and I had long ago read about the five points of Calvinism but could not remember them. I woke up too late. Had I known about this earlier I could have made a difference with my son. I then tried to warn my SBC church about the threat of New-Calvinism, but no one wanted to hear what I was saying. So I quit that church. I will not go back to any church related to the SBC.

  44. Samuel Conner: it is not hard to destroy or delete things that the custodians of the information reckon had best not ever see the light of day

    Missing minutes from the Watergate tapes comes to mind.

  45. Ken F (aka Tweed): New-Calvinism destroyed the faith of one of my sons … I woke up too late. Had I known about this earlier I could have made a difference with my son.

    On the issue of SBC Calvinization, mainline Southern Baptists are either uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant. For those who are uninformed/misinformed, I lay the blame at the feet of 47,000 pastors who know exactly what has been going on. They should have been having “family meetings” with their congregations to inform them about the ails of New Calvinism and the agenda of certain SBC leaders to “reform” the denomination. Most of these pastors are non-Calvinist in belief and practice (the default SBC theology for 150 years). They were essentially told by Frank Page, SBC Executive Committee President, and his “Calvinism Committee” in 2013 that there wasn’t anything to be concerned about, strive for unity, agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room under the big SBC tent for diverse theologies. So these pastors remained silent, but should have been screaming “Hell no, we won’t go!” Too late now.

    Ken, I hope and pray that your son finds his way back to Jesus. There are a lot like him in the wake of the New Calvinist movement, deceived and disillusioned.

  46. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “Proof that they are not really Southern Baptists? A plot to destroy the SBC by alien infiltration?”
    ++++++++++++++

    can we fit bigfoot in there as well, somehow?

  47. Jerome,

    “Dockery: “What a joyful privilege it will be to serve as the first theologian-in-residence…I am deeply thankful to Dr. Adam Greenway for his invitation”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    i’m almost afraid to ask what the job description is. (being paid how much to stare at the text until his brain turns inside out like a paper cup, … anything else?)

  48. elastigirl: can we fit bigfoot in there as well, somehow?

    I don’t think we’ll be able to answer that question until 2025, because no one is worthy to break the seal until then. But it could explain a lot. Or we could find out it’s just a bunch of hype that is nothing more than bigmouth…

  49. elastigirl: can we fit bigfoot in there as well, somehow?

    If bigfoot also has a bigmouth, I have no doubt that it/he is a Southern Baptist leader.

  50. Max: Ken, I hope and pray that your son finds his way back to Jesus.

    Thanks. New-Calvinists did a great job in convincing him he is not one of the elect. He wants nothing to do with anything related to the Bible, or any other religion. But this is not the end of his story.

  51. Max,
    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    ok, so let’s put this all together. Paige Patterson is actually Bigfoot, wearing a Paige Patterson costume,….he’s been able to fool dorothy all these years by….. and then aliens forced him to pipe down about their ongoing conquest….

    lots of holes there…

  52. Ken F (aka Tweed): New-Calvinists did a great job in convincing him he is not one of the elect.

    Therein, lies a principal concern I have about this movement. Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in salvation in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.

  53. it’s the best explanation i’ve heard yet as to the reason the deliberations of the GCR task force were sealed (as patchy as it is).

    nothing would surprise me anymore.

    (well, if mothman somehow featured in this scheme as well, now that would surprise me!)

  54. Ruth Tucker: The President demanded that we “seal the environment.” I bet that some of this SBC information relates to women—particularly women missionaries. In the early years of the SBC, missionary women far outnumbered men, and women carried the major load of Great Commission work. But this has all changed since the political takeover by the fundamentalists many years ago.

    Actually, Patterson was very much in favor of female missionaries, and admitted that women carried much of the historical burden. He told me so himself. Moreover, SEBTS was quite accepting of female missionary students in Patterson’s term. Not to say Patterson was doing things right, he most certainly wasn’t, but that wasn’t one of the areas he influenced.

    It wasn’t until the New Calvinists took over SEBTS, NAMB, and IMB that changed. IMB and NAMB both changed the titles of female missionaries to “support staff”. SEBTS made moves to remove female students in several degree programs (of which I was one of the victims). NAMB removed most family pictures from their fundraising calendar so all the photos were only of the men. Then IMB fired thousands of missionaries due to “debt”, but suddenly NAMB got a bunch of money the next year to plant and “revitalize” churches.

    I also think that the record was sealed to hide the conversion of the SBC to Calvinism.

  55. ishy: IMB fired thousands of missionaries due to “debt”, but suddenly NAMB got a bunch of money the next year to plant and “revitalize” churches

    Yes, I noted that at the time. NAMB (under New Calvinist leader Kevin Ezell) was spending $60 million per year to plant reformed theology, uhhh … I mean “churches” … while IMB (under New Calvinist leader David Platt) cited a funding shortage as the reason for recalling 1,000+ career missionaries from foreign fields (mostly non-Calvinists, of course). If given the choice, would mainline Southern Baptists (millions of non-Calvinists) have kept foreign missionaries in place and curtailed its reformed theology planting program?

  56. ishy: I also think that the record was sealed to hide the conversion of the SBC to Calvinism.

    Well, if that wasn’t the reason, the New Calvinists have sure done a good job in the last 10 years of doing just that … 5 more years and the mission will be “sealed.”

  57. Ken F (aka Tweed): He wants nothing to do with anything related to the Bible, or any other religion. But this is not the end of his story.

    Jesus of Nazareth’s person and agency does not depend on the Bible or religion.
    I wish that more people who’ve been damaged by neo-cal (or non) fundamentalism could see this.

  58. ishy,

    “…IMB and NAMB both changed the titles of female missionaries to “support staff”.

    …SEBTS made moves to remove female students in several degree programs (of which I was one of the victims).

    …NAMB removed most family pictures from their fundraising calendar so all the photos were only of the men.

    …Then IMB fired thousands of missionaries due to “debt”, but suddenly NAMB got a bunch of money the next year to plant and “revitalize” churches.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    that paragraph should go straight to an investigative reporter.

    perhaps people would talk on camera, if their images and voices were obscured.

    i’m so sorry for what that meant for you in your education and life plans.

    what a sordid story.

    (if things as misogyinst, destructive, manipulative, & deceitfully inflammatory as these weren’t kept secret but brazenly done out in the open, what could possibly be so much worse that it had to be sealed?

    aliens…. it had to be aliens. plus bigfoot.)

  59. elastigirl: aliens…. it had to be aliens. plus bigfoot

    We could add the Six-million Dollar Man to the mix, but that thought could get easily confused with salaries and commissions of the usual suspects.

  60. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    no, no, that’s good….

    six million dollars in donations off the backs of hard-working people giving sacrificially

    …in the hands of corrupt powerbrokers-for-God surrounded by spineless yes-men

    …(yes, let’s bring demagoguery into the mix)

    …to make the $ grow, they invested it

    …into a prototype bionic man, who would serve 2 purposes: (1) the prototype for a billion-dollar enterprise they called ‘Nephilim II’ (2) their henchman and security detail

  61. Max,

    “You decide, look at his cold stare, consider his calculated response”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    yes, alien. or shark. sharkman — a new cryptid on the scene.

    a bombshell of an evolutionary missing link

    (no wonder they had to keep things sealed!)

  62. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    what…. i never heard about this.

    where? how? ok, i can see a possible conspiracy behind A Shot Heard Round The World. But surely not Unpack Your Adjectives? not Interjections!?

  63. elastigirl: what…. i never heard about this.

    I made it up as I was responding to you. But then I googled it and found it is a real thing. Who knew?

    Quite a few years ago when one of my sons was in middle school, he had to write an easy about a certain book and he was having a lot of difficulty figuring out what to write about. I told him to just come up with a random theory that interests him and support it with quotes taken out of context. Not only did he get an A on that essay, he became a very gifted writer and writing teacher. It makes me wonder what I unleashed upon the world with my cynical suggestion. He turned out to be an outstanding young man, so I don’t think I have too much to fear.

  64. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    oh my gosh, you’re right!

    i just now played “Rockin’ and a’rollin’
    splishin’ and a’splashin’
    o-over the horizon what can it be
    looks like it’s gonn-nna be–“
    backwards, and this is what i heard:

    an SBC country”

  65. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “But then I googled it and found it is a real thing. Who knew?”
    +++++++++++++++++

    you’re serious… you mean the SBC & ABC were both on the subliminal bandwagon??

    that was around 1975, ’76… the kids in their PJs watching TV on Saturday mornings at 7:00 then were old enough to sit at the GCR taskforce conference table… i think this bigger than we ever thought.

  66. Benn: I see what you did there …..

    The main difference is there are True Scottsmen, but I don’t think there are any True Calvinists. I say this because for every person one can claim as a True Calvinist there is another Calvinist who will argue, for various reasons, that he/she is not.

  67. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “for every person one can claim as a True Calvinist there is another Calvinist who will argue, for various reasons, that he/she is not.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    sort of sounds like ‘True Christian’.

  68. ishy,

    ishy: Actually, Patterson was very much in favor of female missionaries, and admitted that women carried much of the historical burden.

    ishy,

    ishy,

    elastigirl,

    elastigirl,

    ishy,

    ishy: Actually, Patterson was very much in favor of female missionaries, and admitted that women carried much of the historical burden.

    Thanks for your comment. I’m from outside the SBC and probably don’t know enough to comment. I did, however, know the late Dr. Dellanna O’Brien and I know her husband Dr. Bill O’Brien quite well. Dellanna headed the Woman’s Missionary Union for many years and I heard a lot of stories about how Paige Patterson and many others were doing everything they could to take away the independence of the WMU and limit the significant roles women had held in overseas missions. I would be surprised if the evidence shows that this effort began only with the more recent SBC calvinistas.

  69. ishy,

    A bit of info to compare against the “revitalization plan.”

    goodnewsmag.org, January/February 2020.
    “God is Birthing a New Methodist Movement”, page 17:

    ” Missiologist tell us that one of the largest mission fields for the church is in the United States where more than 180,000,000 are unmoored spiritually. “

  70. Brian: ” Missiologist tell us that one of the largest mission fields for the church is in the United States where more than 180,000,000 are unmoored spiritually. ”

    It will get larger when thousands of disillusioned YRR quit church after the New Calvinist bubble breaks!

    I was a Southern Baptist for 70 years. I knew many church members who were religious but spiritually destitute. One of the greatest mission fields for Truth is within the institutional American church.

  71. Brian,

    Given all the abuse in all the different denominations, it is not surprising so many are “unmoored”… I for one, no longer feel “ guilty” when I think something is not “right” with a specific flavor of Christianity… and the more Authoritarian they are the more I do Not trust them. TWW has contributed greatly to help me get over the “guilty” feeling I Use to have when I thought something did not “smell right”…

  72. Stan: Max knows the facts behind my hunch!

    If SBC’s New Calvinists want us old folks to stop talking about conspiracy theories, they need to stop giving us so much evidence!

    It’s as if SBC gave Mohler and his band of new reformers carte blanche to Calvinize the denomination within 15 years … to return it to its 19th century Calvinist roots without asking SBC’s millions of non-Calvinists if they wanted to go there!

  73. Jeffrey Chalmers: TWW has contributed greatly to help me get over the “guilty” feeling I Use to have when I thought something did not “smell right”…

    TWW has helped me understand very old causes of damage, and therefore to heal and to safeguard myself.

  74. Max: I’m not a Paige Patterson fan, but he was an extreme anti-Calvinist voice in SBC life – he even debated Al Mohler.He tried to hold back attempts to Calvinize the denomination.But he became strangely silent after his GCRTF participation.

    Frank Page, who became President of the SBC Executive Committee following the GCRTF meetings, also dropped his Calvinism attacks.(some say that this position is the most powerful office in the SBC).Page had even written a book “Trouble With The Tulip” in 2000 to inform Southern Baptists of this aberrant theology.He, too, became strangely silent on Calvinism after GCRTF.

    Hmmmm …

    Page’s reported failing leading to resignation and Paige’s issues coming to light, interesting in hindsight:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/03/30/frank-page-resigns-his-sbc-post-due-to-a-personal-failing/

  75. Max: Yes, I noted that at the time.NAMB (under New Calvinist leader Kevin Ezell) was spending $60 million per year to plant reformed theology, uhhh … I mean “churches” … while IMB (under New Calvinist leader David Platt) cited a funding shortage as the reason for recalling 1,000+ career missionaries from foreign fields (mostly non-Calvinists, of course).If given the choice, would mainline Southern Baptists (millions of non-Calvinists) have kept foreign missionaries in place and curtailed its reformed theology planting program?

    Might you be drastically underestimating the Great Commission value derived from the domestic economic uptick in drainpipe jeans sales as well as espresso and smoke machines, beard groomers, and various ‘replanting’ staples

  76. JDV: Page’s reported failing leading to resignation and Paige’s issues coming to light, interesting in hindsight:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/03/30/frank-page-resigns-his-sbc-post-due-to-a-personal-failing/

    On that comment thread, I commented (re: the SWBTS chapel stained-glass windows): “… they may have to take down a few of those windows, lest it become a hall of shame rather than a hall of fame …”

    When the hall of fame tilted too much to the hall of shame side of the balance, the windows did indeed come down! Seems that some of those heroes of the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence were packing some bad baggage.

  77. Ruth Tucker: Dellanna headed the Woman’s Missionary Union for many years and I heard a lot of stories about how Paige Patterson and many others were doing everything they could to take away the independence of the WMU and limit the significant roles women had held in overseas missions. I would be surprised if the evidence shows that this effort began only with the more recent SBC calvinistas.

    It did not, but not for the reasons you might think. I worked at NAMB before I went to SEBTS, and NAMB wanted control over the WMU. There were “deals” going on between Patterson and the Founders and New Cals over the revision of the Baptist Faith & Message. The Founders started about the same time Patterson started his quest, so they are contemporaries.

    I’m pretty sure Patterson thought his camp would “rule” once the BF&M was passed, but Mohler had all his people in place to take over. Once that passed, NAMB immediately started changing. One of the deals they had was control over the WMU and the removal of most of their power. For example, their publishing arm was taken over by Lifeway. Lifeway’s switch and restructure was another deal.

    So they are closely related, but the Founders, and then the New Calvinists had these long-term strategic plans and the conservative resurgence group via Patterson did not. Patterson worked with them thinking he would use them, but he was duped. Now we’re seeing how the New Calvinists have damaged the SBC and what the fruit of their terrible leaders has resulted.

    In our conversation about women in missions, Patterson admitted to me that he wished more men would go into missions, but it was just more profitable and easy to stay in the US and be a pastor. So he believed women went instead, sort of the “leftovers”. Not a great missiology, but one that was common in the SBC, I think.

  78. JDV: Might you be drastically underestimating the Great Commission value derived from the domestic economic uptick in drainpipe jeans sales as well as espresso and smoke machines, beard groomers, and various ‘replanting’ staples

    And then there’s internet hosting and Twitter’s stock just from controversial TGC tweets!

  79. As I understand it, in “public information” lawsuits through the Freedom of Information Act, the disclosing agency can make the case to the court that it should be allowed to redact sensitive information. This selective concealment also happens routinely in documents delivered to Congress by other arms of the government in response to congressional subpoenas.

    SBC is a private entity, but the principle of “transparency toward constituents to the degree compatible with protection of sensitive information” would seem to be applicable. The fact that AM was unwilling to “split the difference” in the transparency request by offering to provide the requested materials after redacting the identities of individuals who had confidentiality concerns suggests that the problem may not be the identities of the individuals who offered counsel to the Task Force, but the content of the counsel itself, and perhaps the overall aim of the Task Force’s deliberations.

    There is probably a principle that no annual SBC gathering of messengers can irrevocably bind a future gathering. If that’s right, this issue could be raised again in 2020, with a motion to release the information, with individual identities obscured in order to honor the Task Force’s confidentiality pledges.

    It puzzles me that this has not previously been attempted.

  80. ishy: internet

    There would be no New Calvinist movement with the internet. The new reformers have been brilliant in the use of social media to proselytize followers. Likewise, the internet has been an effective tool to expose their aberrations of faith and agendas/failures of their leaders.

  81. ishy: There were “deals” going on between Patterson and the Founders and New Cals over the revision of the Baptist Faith & Message … Patterson thought his camp would “rule” once the BF&M was passed, but Mohler had all his people in place to take over … Patterson worked with them thinking he would use them, but he was duped …

    My take exactly, Ishy. Mohler won … Patterson lost. The revision of the Baptist Faith & Message gave the New Calvinists, under Mohler’s direction, plenty of theological wiggle room to change SBC’s default non-Calvinist belief and practice, establish elder-rule polity, subordinate them pesky women, and release an army of young reformers across the denomination. The only thing Mohler needed was more time to accomplish that mission; a brilliant strategist, he has done it! He will be crowned Pope Mohler at this year’s annual SBC conference, every knee will bow (at least those under 40).

  82. Max,

    Yup, this is what following Christ means, and being a leader…. it is all about power struggles and leading with the “proper” theology.. or at least, the version that you are pushing.. (sarcasm)..

    The really sad thing is that this as been going on ever since Christ was crucified… nothing new here….

  83. Secrets are powerful. The keeper of the secret is empowered over those who know there is a secret that has not been revealed. The result is a large, deep, wide gap of mistrust that grows between the keepers of the secret and those aware of the secret. Therefore, the need for the creation of any kind of secret is always power laden. In this context, it has been decided that those who share a common faith are not allowed to share common knowledge on a topic. Thus, the paternalism of those who are “in the know” vs. those who are “not allowed to know” creates the dynamic of do as we say and ask no questions. Rather than being on equal footing as humans and persons of faith, it is as if the parental secret-keepers view the remainder of us as children with no volition of our own.

    In other words, the utter dysfunction that comes with the need to create and maintain a secret overwhelms everything. Thus now we have the power of the secret, the distrust from the knowledge of the secret, and the dysfunctional system that allows the process.

    Such situations continue to worsen and spiral downward until the dysfunctional system breaks down.

  84. ishy,

    In relation to Ishy’s comment, who decided Baptist Faith and Message needed to be revised?

    If this had not been revised, would we be talking about this now?

  85. Luckyforward: In this context, it has been decided that those who share a common faith are not allowed to share common knowledge on a topic.

    Exactly. The Christian faith implies that there will be a sharing of truth among believers. Jesus said “I am Truth.” In this situation, a common faith was not exercised; thus, sealing information from other Christians was not a very Christian thing to do. It says that rank and file Southern Baptists are not mature enough to process/handle decisions by their leaders. Christians don’t (or shouldn’t) keep secrets from each other. It’s not clear what is going on here … but it is clear that such secrecy is not right … and perhaps it’s not right because the concealed information is wrong.

  86. Luckyforward: Thus now we have the power of the secret, the distrust from the knowledge of the secret, and the dysfunctional system that allows the process.

    The strange thing about all this is that Southern Baptists at large didn’t kick and scream at the time. Certainly, there were certain SBC folks who questioned the sealing of records, but that concern has lessened over the years (something the secret-keepers were depending on). Apparently, the average Southern Baptist doesn’t give a big whoop … they just blindly trust their leaders to do the right thing … a big mistake on their part! Heck, SBC’s non-Calvinist masses don’t even know that their denomination is being Calvinized!

  87. Jeffrey Chalmers: The really sad thing is that this as been going on ever since Christ was crucified… nothing new here….

    Yep, same devils disrupting the Church … being manifested in different bodies.

  88. Jeffrey Chalmers: it is all about power struggles and leading with the “proper” theology

    It must be a tremendous burden to be the sole keeper of truth, the one true gospel, the only way.

    As Al Mohler said:

    “Where else are they going to go? If you’re a theological minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel built and structured committed churches, your theology is just going end up basically being Reformed, basically something like this New Calvinism, or you’re going to have to invent some label for what is basically going to be the same thing, there just are not options out there, and that’s something that frustrates some people, but when I’m asked about the New Calvinism — where else are they going to go, who else is going to answer the questions, where else are they going to find the resources they going to need and where else are they going to connect. This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing that Paul said, they want to stand with the apostles, they want to stand with old dead people, and they know that they are going to have to, if they are going to preach and teach the truth.”

  89. Max: structured committed churches

    The inherent power of those three words. If you are going to have structure, you must have a keeper of the structure. Thus, the old days for Southern Baptists governed by “the priesthood of the believer” has been replaced by a different kind of “pastoral priesthood.”

  90. Brian: Prior to the coup, in the small churches, was it a simple pastor and congregation set up?

    Brian: In relation to Ishy’s comment, who decided Baptist Faith and Message needed to be revised?

    I’ll see if I can address both of these. Yes, in smaller SBC churches, the polity was congregational, which means the congregation voted on decisions. The New Calvinist polity of choice is elder-led, with the congregation having signed covenants to turn over all important decisions (even private ones) to the elders of the church.

    On the Baptist Faith & Message, what Patterson wanted to change was adding several things about gender and restricting the office of pastor to men. These changes were attractive to both the Conservative Resurgence camp and the New Calvinists.
    “He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God’s creation” and “”While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”

    The New Calvinists wanted some things out of the BF&M, but they made some of these moves right before the 2000 revisions. One was “the priesthood of the believer” to “priesthood of believers” which was changed through a 1998 resolution. In the same vein, in 1998 they also removed the reference to each believer having “soul competency”, ie. the ability to decide how to follow God for themselves. The New Cals are avidly against this concept and for only giving leaders the ability to make decisions. These changes both are to support elder-led church polity and give leaders the ability to tell congregants they can’t make decisions for themselves, choose their own leaders, or leave the church of their own free will.

    In 2000, the word “substitutionary” was added to the part about the atonement, which a big deal in New Calvinist theology. There are non-Calvinists who believe in substitutionary atonement, but a lot of New Calvinist theology is centered on it.

  91. Max: Luckyforward: Thus now we have the power of the secret, the distrust from the knowledge of the secret, and the dysfunctional system that allows the process.

    The strange thing about all this is that Southern Baptists at large didn’t kick and scream at the time.

    I don’t think anyone had any clue where it was going to go. Calvinism was not a topic that was openly discussed as a change for the SBC until after the revision of the BF&M. There’s a lot of Southern Baptists who still have their heads in the sand.

    I have friends at a church whose pastor is about to retire, and I tried to warn them, and they say, “It will never happen here.” I said they should at least educate themselves on the tactics the New Calvinists use to take over churches, and they said they don’t really think that happens in SBC churches(!). They’re right by NAMB, and a fairly affluent church, and I know NAMB will go after them when that pastor retires.

  92. ishy: they said they don’t really think that happens in SBC churches(!)

    A friend of mine said essentially the same thing when I advised him that his church’s pastor search committee should be aware that young Calvinists don’t have a problem eluding their questions about theological leaning. Sure enough, it became clear later that their new “lead pastor” gained the pulpit by stealth and deception … he had lied to the search committee about his theological leaning, subsequently causing the church to split. My friend was among the long-standing members of the church who left … leaving behind the church facilities they had financed, surrendered to the New Calvinist movement.

  93. Luckyforward: the old days for Southern Baptists governed by “the priesthood of the believer” has been replaced by a different kind of “pastoral priesthood.”

    Long-standing Baptist distinctives of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency” are no longer proclaimed in SBC life. Those beliefs were diminished in the 2000 revision of the Baptist Faith & Message. The new generation of Southern Baptists (New Calvinists) don’t have any use for such things.

  94. elastigirl: i’m so sorry for what that meant for you in your education and life plans.

    I get so angry for ishy everytime I hear this story!!! And it reaffirms my decision NEVER to go back to a church that doesn’t fully recognize women as equal.

  95. Lea: I get so angry for ishy everytime I hear this story!!! And it reaffirms my decision NEVER to go back to a church that doesn’t fully recognize women as equal.

    I plan to do the same, though now I think I’m kinda relieved I don’t have a degree from that loathful and misogynist place.

  96. ishy: I plan to do the same

    Highly recommend!! I just have so much peace where I am that I didnt’ even know what missing elsewhere. It’s so weird to hear people constantly rant about calvinists here because the ones I know are so incredibly kind and respectful it’s like night and day.

    But yeah, I feel like what they did to you was basically fraudulent and should be illegal. Grr.

  97. Lea,

    I’ve been attending an Episcopal church online. It’s a little bit strange, but I feel like less church abuse could happen when I’m not there in person. I think it’s just given me a break from church in general. But it has caused me to wonder about all the things the church does and if they are really necessary? It seemed like Jesus just went around and hung out with people.

  98. Brian: The Founders, in 2000 were their members part of the SBC? Or, were they carpet baggers?

    Yes, the old guard Calvinists within SBC (The Founders) in 2000 were SBC members. The carpetbaggers came later (Mahaney, MacDonald, and a host other opportunist New Calvinists).

  99. ishy: In our conversation about women in missions, Patterson admitted to me that he wished more men would go into missions, but it was just more profitable and easy to stay in the US and be a pastor.

    Water finds its own level, especially when humanity is driving the train

  100. ishy: But it has caused me to wonder about all the things the church does and if they are really necessary?

    I don’t think everything is necessary by any means. I took a very long break from church. I think I enjoy it more now because of that? And also because I”m not going out of obligation (unless I have to usher or something)

  101. ishy: [Brian:] who decided Baptist Faith and Message needed to be revised?

    [ishy:] what Patterson wanted to change was adding several things about gender and restricting the office of pastor to men.

    Ha, I guessed it.

    Drink!

  102. Max,

    Thanks for posting this quote by good old “Al” here..
    This has got be the height of “hubris” of these guys,… Christianity has been around for 2,000 years and argued about for just as long. And think, he and his “New Calvinism” have finally figured all out!
    PS… i really like his “This is a generation…”. This is good Al’s “ OK Boomer” moment, before the phrase “ ok Boomer” was around!!

  103. Flax Flower
    I will not be approving your comments. They make little sense like one other person commenting recently. Weird!

  104. Jeffrey Chalmers: Christianity has been around for 2,000 years and argued about for just as long. And think, he and his “New Calvinism” have finally figured all out!

    And think, 90% of Christendom have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years! I guess Dr. Mohler is just smarter than the millions (billions?) of Christians who have come before him … after all, he has a big stack of books according to Mahaney.

  105. To add to what ishy said about how SBC churches used to operate.

    This is a satirical look at a typical SBC church business meeting. These occurred once a month on Wednesday’s.

    As to “small” churches this type of church operation was done at churches with over 1000 members. Which was huge “back in the day”.

    https://internetmonk.com/archive/58527

  106. Brian: Ishy, have you considered the Methodist denomination?

    I was a member of a Methodist church, but they went in a surprisingly conservative direction the past couple years. They may join the new denomination. I still have many friends there, but I can’t get on board with some of the things that have been said. One of those issues was over female pastors.

    Just going to church service is awful triggering for me. And when it’s not triggering, I’m wondering what the point is. The fellowship dinners seem more like what church should be than a bunch of rote words.

  107. KD,

    So sad to see a once-great evangelistic denomination come to this, KD. Great Commission Resurgence? Certainly not.

  108. Stan: Starting in 2025, they’ll say Calvinism is the errant theology that failed to make Jesus great again so now Socinius will be the source of the lost wisdom of the romantic past.

    Who’s Socinius?

  109. Max: Luckyforward: Thus now we have the power of the secret, the distrust from the knowledge of the secret, and the dysfunctional system that allows the process.

    The strange thing about all this is that Southern Baptists at large didn’t kick and scream at the time.

    Boil the frog REAL slow, and make sure to keep the potlucks.

  110. ishy: I have friends at a church whose pastor is about to retire, and I tried to warn them, and they say, “It will never happen here.”

    Wasn’t there a Thirties novel about a Fascist takeover of America titled It Can’t Happen Here?

  111. Ken F (aka Tweed): elastigirl:
    Ken F (aka Tweed),
    hmmm, you’re right….it’s all to predictable, isn’t it…

    I think your theory should include the subliminal messages in Schoolhouse Rock.

    Don’t forget:
    [reverb]BACKWARDS… MASKING…[end reverb]</b.

  112. elastigirl: six million dollars in donations off the backs of hard-working people giving sacrificially
    …in the hands of corrupt powerbrokers-for-God surrounded by spineless yes-men
    …(yes, let’s bring demagoguery into the mix)
    …to make the $ grow, they invested it
    …into a prototype bionic man, who would serve 2 purposes: (1) the prototype for a billion-dollar enterprise they called ‘Nephilim II’ (2) their henchman and security detail

    Like the one about Stalin’s pet scientists crossbreeding great apes with human women to create Uruk-Hai?

    “Whom do you serve?”
    “COMRADE STALIN!!!”