The Tranatual nebula Thousands of never-before-seen young stars spotted in a stellar nursery called 30 Doradus, James Webb Space Telescope.
“Truth never damages a cause that is just.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
Is the NAMB a sinecure for the designated in-crowd?
Did you know that you have no way to find out how the NAMB is spending its money? I started thinking about this recently when I read the following post at Baptist News Global’s Mark Wingfield, who is asking all the right questions. 48-year-old pastor ‘retires’ from Texas megachurch, citing failing health, but will become a vice president at NAMB.
The 48-year-old pastor of one of the largest churches in the Southern Baptist Convention told his congregation Sept. 11 he will “retire” as their pastor due to serious health problems but will continue his ministry as vice president for church planting and church mobilization at the SBC’s North American Mission Board.
“I talked to several pastors that left their pastorate and came to NAMB, and all of them said it’s significantly a less stressful situation than pastoring the local church,” Matt Carter told Sunday worshipers at Sagemont Church in Houston.
I am sorry that this pastor has dealt with significant health problems. Let me tell you how what he said sounds to me. He has experienced weakness after his illness and has found a position as a vice president in the NAMB, which is less stressful than leading a church. Does this mean he will have to work less? Are the NAMB and other leadership positions in the broader SBC a sinecure for those in the in-crowd?
What is a sinecure?
an office or position that requires little or no work and that usually provides an income
If one reads Wingfield’s post, one gets the feeling this goes on regularly. Here are a few more.
Vance Pitman, president of NAMB’s Send Network, came to the agency after 21 years as a church planter and pastor at Hope Church in Las Vegas, which grew to 4,000 members under his leadership. Travis Ogle, senior vice president of NAMB’s Send Network, served on staff with Pitman in Las Vegas.
Bryant Wright, president of NAMB’s Send Relief, came to the agency after he retired as pastor of Johnson Ferry Baptist
Even the staff structure of the NAMB is a big secret.
Wingfield pressed for more information. Guess what. The NAMB would not release its staff structure except for six top leaders!
Exactly where Carter will fit in NAMB’s overall staff structure is not clear. BNG asked NAMB’s executive director of public relations for clarification on the agency’s staff structure and how many vice presidents there are, and that information was not provided. The leadership page on NAMB’s website lists only four top leaders. Further information about NAMB’s staff structure is not publicly available.
Matt Carter is excited because now he will be a passion to his wife.
This sounds nice and all, but what is he going to do for the NAMB, and how much is he being paid to “pastor his wife” since it seems he is saying he wasn’t doing that before? Now, it seems he’s going to have loads of time to do this.
Um, what really put me over the line to make this decision honestly, was my wife. She did not move me to this. It was my desire to pastor her. My primary calling is to the person of Jesus Christ. My secondary calling is to my spouse, to my wife, and my third calling is to the ministry.
There’s only one man that can be a passion to my wife. And so I’m going to make that my priority.”
Is there fraud in the NAMB?
I think this is a good question, and I can honestly say, “I don’t know.” Here’s why. One of my pastors reminds us regularly that he is as much of a sinner as the rest of us. Whenever he says this, I think about the need for transparency on all fronts. Mark Wingfield wrote another post at BNG: Still no external review of North American Mission Board finances.
Here are the issues that raised my eyebrows. Did you know that there are critics who believe there may be fraud in the NAMB? At the SBC meeting last June, motions were made, trying to force transparency. It was unsuccessful. It looks like the SBC President is for secrecy as well.
This week, for the second straight SBC annual meeting, their attempts to peel back the curtains from NAMB failed, as motions and maneuvers were ruled out of order by president SBC President Ed Litton, whose wife is an employee of NAMB.
Litton made the rulings not on his own, however, but upon the advice of SBC parliamentarians and legal counsel who said they were unanimous in their judgments.
Frustrated, critics of NAMB President Kevin Ezell weren’t buying the parliamentary argument. But they were left with no recourse.
Once again, I ask, “Are cushy Baptist jobs being given to the in-crowd?” As you saw above, Ed Litton stepped down after one year. This may have been due to the plagiarism scandal. Did anyone notice that his wife works for the NAMB? I wonder how much she makes, but I can’t find out. Why is that?
The SBC only exists for two days. The rest of the time, the SBC Executive Committee runs the show, which means Kevin Ezell of the SBC is one powerful man.
This is relevant because technically “the convention” exists only two days a year when duly elected messengers gather at the annual meeting. In SBC polity, “the convention” has ultimate authority over all things. The other 363 days of the year, the SBC Executive Committee serves “ad interim” on the convention’s behalf.
But what about the six seminaries, two mission boards and other convention entities? SBC messengers elect 100% of the trustees of these organizations, and each entity has amended its bylaws to identify the SBC as the “sole member” of its corporation. That means none of the entities can declare independence from the SBC, which holds the only vote that matters
And it looks like the NAMB is jerking around the state conventions. Is there lots of hidden money in church planting?
In short, over the past decade NAMB has changed its strategy of working through state Baptist conventions and local associations in church planting and created its own superstructure that often bypasses state conventions. Tens of millions of dollars have been redirected away from state conventions and associations.
It appears that the NAMB wants to take over church planting instead of allowing state conventions to do it as it has in the past. This leads me to wonder if money can be made in the church planting business. Is this why the NAMB is so secretive about its budget?
BNG posted state conventions beyond the South question SBC North American Mission Board’s spending and accountability for church planting, which looks at this closely.
A decade-long disagreement over how Southern Baptists fund church planting and missions in North America is coming to a head and threatens the sanctity of the denomination’s spirit of cooperative giving.
The result: State conventions outside the South are reducing their contributions to the denomination’s highly revered Cooperative Program because the SBC is sending them less missions support money through partnerships.
The NAMB says it’s all about “reappropriation.” Isn’t that a nice term for changing the rules of the game?
The current uprising finds its strongest voice in the non-Southern states, where Southern Baptists are not as prevalent. Leaders in these state conventions claim NAMB has cut them out of longstanding partnerships in missions and church planting and has adopted more of a “franchise” approach
For its part, NAMB staff leadership and trustees don’t deny there has been a radical shift in missions strategy. They have been clear and consistent in their vision. The shift not only is necessary but has been endorsed by the SBC in annual session, leaders contend. NAMB has not defunded mission work in states, the explanation says, but has reappropriated funds previously channeled through state conventions for nearly three-quarters of a century — and on which those state and regional conventions came to depend.
This is a lengthy article and worth the read. In the end, I think it’s all about the money, and the NAMB ain’t talking about “how much” is at stake.
In fact, an important lawsuit is underway, and I plan to write a separate post about Will McRaney.
The SBC has tied itself in knots trying to prevent the lawsuit but has been unsuccessful. I am particularly excited to see the depositions.
This set the stage for Will McRaney to be fired as executive director of the Baptist Convention of Maryland and Delaware after he opposed NAMB’s new tactics. McRaney filed a wrongful termination and defamation lawsuit against NAMB that is still winding its way through the courts. NAMB has been unsuccessful in trying to stop the litigation.
It is not surprising that the NAMB Whistleblower site has been formed.
According to the site, church plant spending has increased by $50 million while starting half as many churches.
NAMB whistleblowers have REVEALED abuses of power and people, MISUSE of financial gifts, FAILURE to abide by SBC bylaws, in addition to other corrupt behavior. NAMB internal reports reveal a steep DECLINE in baptisms and numbers of new churches, while the spending on new church starts has EXPLODED by over 300% in a decade. Church plant SPENDING has increased by $50 million while starting 1/2 as many churches.
To be good STEWARDS of the mission GIFTS of Southern Baptist member churches these unrighteous actions must be EXPOSED.
If you are aware of any issues related to NAMB or its staff, please report them below. With transparency, Southern Baptists can see NAMB restored to operate righteously.
I have long asked how many church plants have failed. I can’t get an answer because they don’t have to tell anyone. We can’t determine how much money is spent on salaries, benefits, and perks for the NAMB leaders who are apparently living stress-free lives since they don’t have to tell anyone anything.
In the meantime, keep an eye on Will McRaney’s lawsuit and the subsequent depositions. I’ll be updating its progress.
“It appears that the NAMB wants to take over church planting instead of allowing state conventions to do it as it has in the past.”
NAMB’s church planting program these days would more aptly be recalled reformed theology planting. It could be that some State conventions don’t want to plant Calvinism in their associations which have historically been non-Calvinist in belief and practice.
Max,
“called” not “recalled”
If there really is revival breaking out in Kentucky, then I pray it spreads, and one way we can solve these money problems is for people from the bottom rung of the ladder, who make up the congregation, to say “no more” and quit giving! They begin reading their Bibles, asking questions and questioning what is taught like the Bereans, and make that money dry up! We will no longer have to ask these questions and wait for answers, that they don’t and won’t give. Jesus turned over the tables before Acts 2 ever happened.
“There’s only one man that can be a passion to my wife. And so I’m going to make that my priority.”
TMI, Mr. Carter.
Amen! And before Acts 2 happened, Acts 1:14 was necessary: “They all joined together constantly in prayer.”
CynthiaW.,
My thoughts, exactly!
“We can’t determine how much money is spent on salaries, benefits, and perks for the NAMB leaders…” We need forensic accountants (as opposed to CPAs or general accountants) to identify where all the money is hiding and exactly how it’s being used. Thank you, Dee, for tracking this, I eagerly await the updates.
Also at NAMB this month, a leader was fired, Michael Crawford: https://julieroys.com/sbc-missions-arm-terminates-send-network-vp-crawford-amid-moral-failure/
And last year Johnny Hunt was fired from his sinecure at NAMB…
I have a jaundiced view of this revival. That’s because I remember previous heavily publicized revivals and what a mess they were or ended up being.
The Brownsville (Pensacola) revival in 1995 was one of those. They got a lot of people through there, but a lot of people who had nothing came to Pensacola and Brownsville AoG really did not help with the problem it had caused. Instead, it was dumped on churches and local organizations that worked with the poor and homeless.
Then there was the “Lakeland Outpouring” in 2008, which starred Todd “I kick ’em to heal ’em” Bentley. It took off after GodTV showed up and began showing the nightly services live. The “revival” cratered not long after Bentley was “set apart” by a bunch of Charismatic bigwigs to continue the revival. In between ABC Nightline not finding any proof of the healings that took place, and Bentley dumping his wife for one of his assistants, the “revival” flared out.
It’s entirely possible that this Asbury revival is the real deal, but I’m extremely skeptical. I have been reliably informed that it too is now live, and people have come across it on TikTok. OK, I just checked, there is at least one livestream right now on YouTube. I wish these young people would get out of the pews and into the community where there are so many unmet needs.
All of this is of course Just My Personal Opinion. I’ll admit this may be a bit harsh as I’ve been under lot of stress as my mother fell and hit her head two weeks ago. We learned that she is extremely oxygen deficient and she’s probably going to have to be on oxygen from now on. Right now she’s building up her strength in a skilled nursing facility before we can bring her home. She is making improvements day by day, so there is that.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Praying for you all and your mom.
First, prayers for you and your mother.
Also, It seems completely necessary to greet such reports with caution, as well as have a look at principals involved, as well as what might follow. It seemed noteworthy to me that a key figure apparently happened to be involved in a primary position in domestic church planting. For me these days, that has me interested in further details about whatever is being portrayed as God moving in a mighty way, “showing“ people something, and so forth.
Michael Crawford was double dipping as (1) Executive Director of a Southern Baptist state convention (Maryland/Delaware) and as (2) Vice President of the ‘SEND Network’ of the SBC’s North American Mission Board, until being terminated from both posts a couple of weeks ago for “moral failure involving marital indiscretions”.
None of the articles on him have mentioned his history with the ARBCA.
Before he moved to Baltimore and got on the SBC gravy train, he was with Palmdale Reformed Baptist Church (named changed to ‘Free Grace Church’ as it’s listed in ARBCA Directory of 2007):
https://web.archive.org/web/20070703110414fw_/http://65.71.233.194/arbca/churches.htm
ARBCA Directory
California
FREE GRACE CHURCH
Pastor Michael Crawford
Palmdale, CA
The other question is are jobs like that prone to abuse by hirelings and grievous wolves, who will then be in position to make recommendations of handpicked seminarians to well-paying positions, as well as the heads of “church plants” so that they can then be in position to build a résumé for a higher paying job later?
Additionally, how much more prone with those installed under such circumstances make sure to prioritize cooperative program and NAMB giving continue at the church where they now hold a position of decision-making power? Also, how much crossover is there in terms of people being related, often father-son, and coincidentally benefiting the family and / or friends with employment decisions?
It certainly seems worth investigating the answers to those questions rather than just telling people to give cuz “missions“ and leave it at that.
“NAMB Whistleblower site has been formed.”
By whom? What’s been posted here about some abuse victims being given the number of lawyer that just happens to work for the body that would be liable for the abuse comes to mind.
2008 profile of Michael Crawford:
https://www.heraldnews.com/story/news/2008/12/18/valley-voices-michael-crawford/49544492007/
“Michael graduated from The Master’s College…with a bachelor’s degree in political studies. He earned his master’s degree in divinity from The Master’s Seminary…In 1998, he became an ordained minister and has been working for several years at Free Grace Church in Lancaster.”
“About six years ago, Michael was approached by three Ridgecrest families, who wanted to establish a new church…Ridgecrest Reformed Baptist Church began…with Pastor Lyn Whitcomb. The congregation has grown and the name has recently been changed to Cornerstone Bible Church, Michael said. Last year, Michael stepped down from his position at Free Grace Church to invest more of his time in a non-profit consulting firm…[and] helping Pastor Whitcomb lead Cornerstone”.
$50 million, free for the skimming.
I will forever believe had the FUNDAMENTALIST not taken over the SBC stuff like this would not be happening. Just my opinion.
It appears to me there is definitely an elite that runs the SBC to their benefit. I think the SBC is in a lot of trouble. They were before the Resurgence and that didn’t help but consolidate power to the elites that now run the SBC.
The elites have made a determination to stop traditional evangelism. They now want to make the SBC more “diverse”. This is some of the problem at NAMB. They don’t want to show the average Southern Baptist where they spend the money. NAMB has also been accused of supporting and advocating Critical Race Theory.
They are compromising the Baptist Faith and Message by supporting things prohibited by the BFAM. Women pastors specifically. You may approve of women pastors, however they have a document, The Baptist Faith and Message that says the SBC is not for women pastors. If they want to change that, let them go through the convention and do so.
I think it is absolutely disgusting that NAMB isn’t accountable to show how they spend the money that average person in the pew give to the cooperative program. I can’t understand how even the elites can think this is acceptable. When the books are finally open I think it will be ugly what is found out. Lack of accountability and openness is always a recipe for corruption in my opinion.
Perhaps with discovery in the law suit brought by Will McRaney there will be sunshine into how NAMB spends the donation of Southern Baptist.
How many SBC churches have women pastors? For me if the SBC allowed women pastors it would not be a problem for me. There have never been many women pastors in the SBC. I think the FUNDAMENTALIST used this issue and innerancy to ram through the 2000 BF&M.
A funding item that bothered me big time a few years ago was when David Platt, President of SBC’s International Mission Board & NeoCal darling, recalled 1,000 career foreign missionaries (this move contributed to my decision to depart SBC after 70+ years). Platt cited a funding shortage. However, at the same time, his NAMB bud Kevin Ezell was spending $60 million per year on planting churches (= reformed theology) at the rate of 1,000 per year. Ezell was swimming in SBC gravy while those missionaries (primarily non-Calvinist) were looking for other jobs. If mainline Southern Baptists (primarily non-Calvinist) had been asked how to use available SBC funds at that time, I’m certain they would have opted for keeping missionaries on the field, rather than planting NeoCal churches … after all, SBC had 45,000+ churches already! There was plenty of gravy in SBC coffers to keep the foreign mission program intact, in my humble (but accurate) opinion. But SBC’s NeoCal leaders had another agenda about how to scoop that gravy out.
If the people in the pew refuse to pony up one thin dime in offerings until everything is open and above board, then and only then will the books be opened. And even then they are likely to be heavily edited before being opened.
And if the skimmees allow the skimmers unrestricted access to their wallets and purses every Sunday, they deserve each other.
They do deserve each other!
“It appears that the NAMB wants to take over church planting instead of allowing state conventions to do it as it has in the past.” (Dee)
Which goes contrary to a basic founding principle established for the Cooperative Program (which funds NAMB) that the CP was to be an equal partnership between the Southern Baptist Convention and the State conventions.
It’s been sad to witness the highjacking of hard-earned pewsitter contributions to the CP, the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, and the
Annie Armstrong Easter Offering … to fund the New Calvinist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention. And the pew ain’t got a clue.
max, i am afraid that those that know what is going on in the sbc do not care.
It is truly sad. They have lost me. I won’t give money to anything the elites could get there hands on. And I would be someone you would call a Calvinist. What the elite in the SBC are doing has nothing to do with Calvinism.
“What the elite in the SBC are doing has nothing to do with Calvinism.”
Ken A,
What the elite are doing have nothing to do with God, either ……… and not all of the elite are Calvinists.
….wealth, money, privilege, power…….
JJallday,
The same thing happened at this college in 1970….. Kent State shootings, Vietnam war and the protests, social upheaval……… I don’t really believe much will come of what’s happening at Ashbury.
But, the Second Great Awakening began in Logan County, KY.
“It was my desire to pastor her” – ew! What does that mean? Feels like a red flag to me. What man decides to retire from his pastoring job to pastor his wife specifically??
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“Revival” is also being reported at Cedarville (OH) University. Maybe related to the recent stabbing, which continues to be poorly handled by administration?? Thankful all the CCW people on campus did not rush in and start shooting. Rid CU of ALL weapons! Make it a gun-free zone. And, get a new president.
I am increasingly uncomfortable and nervous walking into my church with the armed so-called ‘security’ sitting outside in the parking lot with flashing lights on their car roof, and the deacons and other wanna-be-cops running around inside with ear phones and gun bulges in their pockets. The same people who refused shots and masks. More and more, I feel unsafe in my own church.
Max,
It’s worse than that. Go look up videos on YouTube (if you can still find them)of D’Hati Lewis at NAMB telling people that in addition to the Greatest Commandments, and the Great Commission, there is something called “The Great Requirement”, which is basically economic redistribution to achieve Social Justice.
Tom Parker,
It’d be worse.
The LGBTQ rainbow flag would be flying over NAMB headquarters.
Ken A,
Ken:
You understand things quite well.
Nope. You are better than that.
Tom Parker,
Max and Tom:
You are right on this score.
Aside from the theological squabbles, the new SBC leaders are designing more of a top down control type denomination vs. the idea of independent churches contributing funds for cooperative work.
The new denomination is investigating churches based on whom they invite to speak.
That kind of control was never envisioned in the old days.
Serving as a pastor is not easy. And by pastor, I mean shepherd, not CEO. Health issues notwithstanding, and Carter seems to have had some genuinely difficult health struggles, a lot of the “difficulties” these guys complain about are of their own making. How about serve 100-200 with one or two other staff, live and fellowship with the congregation on a regular basis – maybe, gasp, even know their names – don’t pursue inflated and unnecessary credentials, and live life in anonymity. It won’t cure cancer or buy you multiple houses, sure, but it is closer to the biblical model.
So the FUNDAMENTALIST literally destroy the SBC and you are worried about a flag. Nothing can be worse than what these men did to the SBC. They made women 2nd class citizens.
Tom Parker,
That flag is flown by people who no longer know what women are…
Red flag, with sirens and flashing lights!
My knee-jerk:
What??? This man has been letting his wife run around around feral all these years just so he could pastor a church? Oh My!
But now that he has a nice cushy job with good pay and lots of spare time, he’ll have time to ………. rein her in and ……. house break, train, subdue her????
Burwell Stark,
This does not address the subject at hand, though. I am of the opinion that the NAMB is rife with sinecure, nepotism, and the good old boy network. This should not be.
Wow. Great deflection
Sarah,
“What man decides to retire from his pastoring job to pastor his wife specifically??”
+++++++++++++++++
a man who wants to fly under the radar in his new kind of job/salary/perks, using his wife as a human shield to hide behind?
(radar…human shield… did i mix metaphors?)
What a ridiculous and ignorant comment.
I’m grieved by the tribalism. The conservative SBC candidates and groups have rightly drawn attention to the mission drift if not outright theological error of NAMB, the ERLC and the seminaries, but they are often enablers of abuse or abusers themselves. Those who are strong advocates for abuse reform are too often tolerant of or proponents of the same theological erosion that has doomed many of the liberal mainline denominations like the one I grew up in (PCUSA).
Tom Parker,
Whoa cowboy…
We’ve been over this ground before.
So long as the pot-lucks and the social events calendar continues untouched, do they really want a clue?
Amen! Unfortunately, too many SBC NeoCal seminary students desire to jump quickly from church plant to mega. “Know their names” is not on their radar. Why follow a Biblical model when the NeoCal movement has a different playbook for you? Why minister to the flock when you can tweet your life away with the dudebros at the coffee shop? Live in obscurity and anonymity ministering the love of Jesus? Nah.
As I’ve noted before (as an SBC insider for 70+ years), there was a lot wrong with SBC life before the New Calvinists showed up to finish it off. The masses don’t give a whoop about theological drift and how the big boys spend their money … but if you try to take away their monthly fellowship dinner, you’ll have a war on your hands!
God is too.
?????
All too familiar, unfortunately. A local A29 church (eastern NC, about an hour outside Raleigh) recently announced their growth plan, to plant five GospelTM churches in the surrounding areas. While an admirable goal, three of the cities they’re targeting already have orthodox churches, even Pilar Network churches, just not Acts29 churches.
Yes. The blog was down for a while tonight due to an expired certificate. Sorry. Should be OK now.
GBTC
But 100% true.
If you work with donations, you have to be extra careful so that “reappropriation” does not become “misappropriation” of the money, away from the wishes and understanding of the original donors.
Gus,
LGB”T”QIA+
You are showing some very strong signs of being a bigot imo.
“Are cushy Baptist jobs being given to the in-crowd?”
Well, there’s no doubt that being in the inner ring with Al Mohler ain’t going to hurt your climb up the SBC ladder.
Prior to becoming President of NAMB, Kevin Ezell was Mohler’s pastor.
Prior to becoming President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Danny Akin was Mohler’s Dean of Theology and Senior VP.
Prior to becoming President of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Jason Allen was Mohler’s Executive Assistant and VP of Institutional Advancement.
Prior to becoming President of SBC’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, Russell Moore was Mohler’s Dean of Theology and Senior VP for Academic Administration. (note: Moore is no more)
etc. etc.
Even though he lost his run for SBC President, Mohler’s authority and influence still permeate the SBC. The New Calvinist takeover of the SBC wouldn’t have happened with him.
meant to say “without him”
Tom Parker,
Is it bigoted in your opinion to openly disagree with the LGBTQAI+ initiative and not like the rainbow flag?
I get it if that’s your opinion.
Mere invective is not effective.
What even my non Baptist relations can see is that the SBC has ceased to be Baptist.
There is no top down with Baptists. There is only the lone believer who voluntarily unites with other like minded believers in order to evangelize effectively. Then that local group may or may not choose to cooperate with other groups of like minded believers to evangelize further afield (missions) more effectively.
They talked about taking Baptist out of their name. Wish they would. I say that because now they want to be a denomination, not a convention, with top down heavy handed my way or the highway leadership.
Oh well. Guess what real Baptists that are left among them need to pull out and be Baptists. Solo, if need be.
Max,
Sounds like a story-board for a Scorsese mob flick.
Tom Parker,
I *was* actually trying to express my agreement with Tom Parker’s estimation of OD’s posts as bigoted.
It will be a chapter in the book someone will write someday on the demise of the SBC.
Would be a good motto for the Done movement, perhaps the largest growing segment of authentic Christianity in America … done with SBC, but not done with Jesus … “Solo, If Need Be”
Oracle at Delphi,
Gus,
Oracle, I assumed you were trying to point out the hypocrisy in exchanging one stereotype about others smaller than themselves, for another. But your lack of accompanying comment apparently confused most of us. There are at least three kinds of G and at least three of T.
At least one the kinds of G disagree with the “authorities” they have found themselves lumbered with and I hope several of the kinds of “T” will follow suit soon, in the interest of primary purpose and not being deprived of agency to look after their own welfare. As usual, almost no church understands “inheriting the kingdom of heaven”.
sometimes ‘walking away’ from a group that praises itself and abuses its ‘enemies’ with contempt . . . that ‘walking away’ is a sign of theological integrity
there are some factions of fundamentalist-evangelicalism that preach ‘contempt’ for ‘the others’ and point to atheists and agnostics as ‘the enemy’,
but the truth is that many of those who ‘doubt’ are not far from the ‘lost, and confused, and without a shepherd’ that Our Lord had compassion on in the sacred Scriptures. And Christ showed such patience with St. Thomas who doubted Him after the Resurrection . . .
These same fundamentalists and evangelicals see themselves as ‘saved’ and have no fear of being judgmental towards those they look down on . . . a kind of hubris that Our Lord taught was NOT acceptable to God in His parable of the Pharisee in the temple.
Too little, too late is the realization that a proud, judgmental people that says ‘Lord, Lord’ may NOT be counted among the sheep but consigned to the ‘goats’ at the last judgement,
as in the twenty-fifth chapter of St. Matthew’s Gospel, where the ones who tried to ‘pass’ as Christ-followers were consigned to goatdom, the ones who had failed to live in imitation of Christ but only said ‘Lord, Lord’ when judged.
Walking away from a group of ‘goats’ may be a sign of a blessed gift of discernment. 🙂
Dee, I’m not a profit nor the son of a prophet, but I can tell you what an honest audit will eventually reveal:
A. Top heavy, “senior” leadership structure and bloated salaries;
B. A slush fund that has been “invested” in the hostile/stealth takeover of non calvinist churches that are property and asset rich. These takeovers are accomplished with staff funding that goes towards overwhelming church boards with professionals (think TGC playbook);
C. Significant investments in promoting their “team” via social media promotion, conference invitations, book selling (think Mark Driscoll).
I don’t know anything official but the hostile takeover methodology has been a well established playbook since the 80’s. This is simply the “church version”.
= New Calvinist activity within SBC
To my knowledge, no one is documenting this … but I believe it to be widespread in the SBC. Modus operandi: (1) lie to pastor search committee about your theological leaning to get the pulpit, (2) replace congregational governance with elder-rule polity, (3) indoctrinate non-Calvinist members with reformed theology in sermons and Bible studies, (4) stir up enough dissension to split the church, (5) capture church property & assets when old members leave.
The above is obviously unChristlike methodology, but is apparently justified in the minds of young reformers for the good of the movement … a new reformation to restore the “gospel” to the American church (gospel = Calvinism to these folks).
One of my favorite things to happen at work! I had someone very high up the food chain ask me this morning why we had an incident yesterday involving expired certificates. I said, “Let me ask the person who handled the incident” and then “uhm, the change to implement the certificates two nights ago was never approved so it fell into a black hole, apparently.” My point? Just because you have all the best procedures and tracking in the world doesn’t mean anything if you don’t use them. This is a lesson that goes far beyond certificates, if you get my drift.
I’m an “A” (asexual) and I just want to point out that you don’t just want “open disagreement”. Rather, you want to shut us all up, push us back into the closet, or even better, make our very existencs illegal. Speaking only for myself, I am just very, very tired of being hated on by people who call themselves followers of Jesus. That’s all I have to say.
Oracle at Delphi,
your comments have been extremely cruel, derogatory, mocking, disrespectful to your fellow human beings, all in a cavalier way, looking down on others.
while you come across as glib & doling out such comments with ease, dripping with pseudo-righteousness, your words destroy other human beings.
if it matters at all to you.
As a Lutheran, if they tried to take Velma Albrecht’s split pea soup away, I’d probably start a war too!
elastigirl,
OD may have inhaled a bit too much from the toxic fumes that rise up through the chasm at Delphi.
That can’t be healthy. In fact, it is known it was not healthy for the Pythia/Sybil’s health.
Finding the exact location of the chasm extruding toxic vapors in American fundygelicalism is an exercise I’ll leave to the reader’s imagination and intelligence.
Velma is a gift from God to your church.
Re the whole LBGTQR+ kerfuffle:
Speaking the truth in love, calling for repentance, or simply reading the Bible as it is written is not hate speech, not being a hater, not being unloving.
There are many of my besetting sins mentioned in the Bible. Those that call me to repentance are not being unloving, they are being the most loving people in the world to me. Does it hurt my feelings? Well, being human, of course it does. Are they cruel? NO! They love me enough to tell me the truth that those sins are indeed sins and cannot accompany me into the courts of the King of Kings.
Can a person be saved and still have besetting sins? Of course they can. The question come down to are they resisting those sins or wanting the world to celebrate them?
If the LBGTQ+ folks want to be treated with dignity and respect, they must also treat those opposed to them with the same dignity and respect.
IMHO. YMMV.
elastigirl,
They are not cruel. I do not support the LGBTQAI+ agenda and the rainbow flag.
The failure to do so is neither bigoted nor cruel.
No what she said about you is correct. Also it is not an agenda and it is just a flag.
I would add your comments were full of hate and I am hopeful you are not in a position to harm these people who are all made in the image of God.
Just like the Constitution of the old USSR!
Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard.
“FOR THE REVOLUTION, COMRADES!”
Or the Taliban restoring the Original True Islam as it was in The Days of The Prophet.
“GOD WILLS IT!”
Remember that “Ba’al” also translates as “Lord”.
Are they saying “LORD, LORD”, or “BA’AL! BA’AL!”?
P.S. During my time in-country in the mid-Seventies, “The LORD” seemed to be the main (almost the only) way to properly refer to God. Some even pronounced it with Caps Lock and multiple “O”s. Apparently the more “O”s in “LOOOOOOOOOOORD”, the more Christian you were; this led to some ridiculous forms of One-Upmanship.
In the Old Stories, Remember how Jacob stole the Birthright from Esau?
Given the human troop-size limit, 100-200 is probably the optimum number if you’re trying to avoid hierarchy and bureaucracy. Might be able to extend it a bit if that 100-200 counts family groupings instead of individuals, but that adds a layer of “representative” organization.
As usual, Max, you’re whole comment is spot on. There is an actual written playbook to this effect, published by TGC. Dee has a copy. They’re somewhat stealthier than what you say, Max, but not much. If you spend $50 million (as NAMB apparently does) but gain $100 million in assets in the process, most professionals would call that “wise investing”. Jesus would disapprove. I believe He may throw them out of His presence.
When SBC New Calvinists talk about “revitalizing” non-Calvinist churches that are struggling, it is code for move in and take their stuff for the glory of the new reformation.
Yep, he swapped a bowl of soup for Esau’s birthright. When a church member is more concerned about fellowship dinners than aberrant belief and practice, he is doing the same thing.
Oracle at Delphi,
“I do not support the LGBTQAI+ agenda and the rainbow flag.
The failure to do so is neither bigoted nor cruel.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
REMEDIAL CLASS ON SOCIAL SKILLS
“How To Build Strong Character In Adults Who Are Falling Behind Their Peers”
Lesson 1:
An adult can choose not to approve of the activities of people while still choosing to treat them with kindness, respect, and dignity.
Tom Parker,
Tom Parker,
You are wrong.
elastigirl,
I agree totally with that.
Inasmuch as that is my position, I would appreciate your looking back through the thread and repeat where I have not treated someone with dignity.
OD, Tom’s indefinite puts it better than your definite – and this is also my point at 1.57. You appear identical to the interloping monopolists muddying the waters for those involved, in fact the church version came first because it is dominionist.
In the 1980s a pope imposed through world media his idea of “biblical manhood” which hasn’t helped people in general make friends with other people in general, because they weren’t married yet. All too ably assisted by the segregationist (saved vs unsaved) materialist megaphoning moraliser, Falwell Senior (the protestant pope for many English at the time).
Due to “evangelical” (and RC) prayerless triumphalism we youth weren’t guarded from the official indoctrination to predate / be preyed upon. I always saw the concept “sweep a girl / woman off her feet” as suspect.
It is as difficult for those friendly to all, such as Elastigirl and Linda, to single out whatever factions or quangoes are controlling the interests of boys and girls with tastes and emotions (who are a biggish proportion of those affected), as it is for parishioners to get ahead of the machinations detailed by Believer and Max.
An essential lesson for the young is that whoever doesn’t join “the” sole faction is NOT to be taken as against them, but for: those on the outside are also for us. My generation subliminally understood it. In your last sentence you claim to, but only after misdefining the situation people are in by minimising insincere interloping. This is why you were picked up in this combination of matters.
The meaning of the kingdom of heaven is that in the present eschaton, trading in the gifts (foremost through supplication) doesn’t work out for believers if they don’t seek the virtue of situational chastity.
A more worthwhile point by you initially would have been to point out the ridiculous satire in “new calvinist” or “neo calvinist” hypocrisy. You only needed to use a phrase such as “some of the GTA-BGL agendas”: incomplete plural.
“Goons” love nothing more than to induce “christians” to gloat over children’s private parts.
Some of the interlopers (who are ambiguously organised and named) have been (on vague moralistic grounds) signposting / railroading the young with emotions and tastes not catered for by JP II / Falwell Senior onto a more drastic form of “conversion therapy”, while a subset now in their 30s wish they had been given longer. (By claiming to have “the” box to put these young in, instead of leaving the young free to just be.)
One of my main movements did this. It was Gramsci inspired – stealing the affections of the subalterns – reinforced by Girard’s scapegoat motif a.k.a worm theology – which shows up the fakeness of the flimsy claims for anti-Bolshevism by the leaders of the 1980s and since. The scenario used to be called “pincer movement” or “material dialectic”.
I think the Jim Jones/Carter/Vance debacle was taken as “excuse” for these hugely damaging overreactions. Moralisers are demoralisers, whether they hoist up rainbow flags or not.
A faction within a coalition tries to portray the scene as lacking true diversity in autonomy just as a certain denomination is trying to degrade “evangelicals together” into a mere “association”.
Dissembling!
Oracle at Delphi,
Thank you for attending the REMEDIAL CLASS ON SOCIAL SKILLS class. We’re going to have a pop quiz.
Question #1: “Which is a better method of communication?”
A. “I can spout off any which way I choose and to he|| with the listener; all that matters is that I am entitled to say what I want any d@mn way I want.”
B. “I can convey my view in such a way that does not denigrate the other person.”
————
Question #2: “I get to decide what is and is not denigrating to another person.”
A. True
B. False
—————
Question #3: Justify your answer to the preceding question.
—————-
Question #4: Read Muslin, fka Dee Holmes’ comment on Fri Feb 17, 2023 at 09:01 PM. How do your previous answers apply to this real-life example?
Sisters everywhere, rise up and tell these guys:
Hell No!
The only way to put the brakes on NeoCal’s “beauty of complementarity” (gender abuse) is for female believers to rise up en masse, declare “Enough is enough!”, and start dragging their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the NeoCal jungle by their hair.
Max,
The thing that really tasks me about what they claim to be the “beauty of complimentarity” is that it MUST APPLY to All, and that it’s based solely on plumbing received at birth.
Interesting, given their definition of “all”
all = us (and us alone)
Well, let me tell you something, linda: we’re not being treated with dignity and respect in your churches0. We’re treated as the worst sinners ever. Your people are spreading terrible stories about us, we’re kicked and beaten verbally in churches across the land, some states are passing laws against our very existence, and yet you expect us to treat you with “dignity and respect”
OH PLEASE. The answer is NO. Y’all have declared war on the LGBTQIA community, and you’re trying to cover up your bad behavior and your twisted teachings in the idea that we have to respect your religious beliefs. NO, I do NOT have to respect the beliefs of people who are beating up on the LGBTQIA community, I just don’t.
Not only that, Jesus didn’t tell his followers to try and pass laws against LGBTQIA people, to harass us, to say that we’re the worst while y’all piously pat yourselves on the back and ignore your child sexual abuse scandals, your adult sexual assault scandals, your other crimes and the way that anyone who isn’t a white man with power is treated in your churches.
We’re not your problem. You need to look in the mirror. And then stop asking us to treat us with dignity and respect when you do NO SUCH THING. /sorry not sorry, tired of this nonsense
linda,
“Speaking the truth in love, calling for repentance, or simply reading the Bible as it is written is not hate speech, not being a hater, not being unloving.
There are many of my besetting sins mentioned in the Bible.”
++++++++++++++++++
this is like comparing the choice to be impatient or vindictive with the choice to be left-handed as in the same category.
and comparing admonishments for these ‘vices’ as in the same category.
“I shouldn’t have a problem when admonished for being rude to the person in my way at Wal-mart, just as you shouldn’t have a problem when admonished for being left-handed.”
That.
I don’t find sweeping generalizations helpful for dialogue. I doubt everyone in the LGBTQIA category all agree on all issues any more than people in any other group have completely homogeneous views. Some people in a particular community are vocal about pushing the buttons on people not in their community, and vice-versa. Button pushing and accusations won’t solve anything.
1 Corinthians 13
“ Y’all have declared war on the LGBTQIA community, and you’re trying to cover up your bad behavior and your twisted teachings in the idea that we have to respect your religious beliefs. NO, I do NOT have to respect the beliefs of people who are beating up on the LGBTQIA community, I just don’t.
Not only that, Jesus didn’t tell his followers to try and pass laws against LGBTQIA people, to harass us, to say that we’re the worst while y’all piously pat yourselves on the back and ignore your child sexual abuse scandals, your adult sexual assault scandals, your other crimes and the way that anyone who isn’t a white man with power is treated in your churches.”
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I am a straight, Caucasian, married country girl …. and former SBCer, and I say, “Well said, Dee.”
Many, many times, “Godly” people have chosen to ignore and cover up blatant abuse, fraud, and stealth takeovers in their own circles, while they focus on publicly condemning people who are “different”, and choose to openly live a different lifestyle …… a lifestyle that harms no one. (That seems to be the target now. Is it deflection???)
In addition to that, many so-called “Christians” seem to be bent on forcing everyone to adhere strictly to their religious beliefs….. lock-step…..
That’s not what Jesus did.
I personally know a few people who are part of the LGBTQIA community – one is a member of my family. Honestly, I quite don’t understand them ……. but I don’t condemn them or avoid them. They are my friends and my family. To me, trying to force people to change their sexual orientation is kinda like telling me that green eyes are bad…. I have to change my eye color…. or wear colored contacts.
My wife and I both have green eyes … only 2% of the world do … we’re bad, but not as bad as we used to be.
Linda:
You said:”“Speaking the truth in love, calling for repentance, or simply reading the Bible as it is written is not hate speech, not being a hater, not being unloving.
There are many of my besetting sins mentioned in the Bible.”
Which verses of the Bible do you take literally and which ones do you not?
What is your criteria for deciding between literal and not literal?
I think you know what she meant by y’all.
Southern Baptist always have to have an enemy. How many hateful sermons have been preached on about homosexuality? Even when the Aids epidemic was happening many said it was a judgment from God on them.
And when they can’t find one, they start fighting each other! There have been countless battles over this and that for 150 years.
When they don’t find a real one on purpose – Falwell Senior – they fight on a decoy issue.
Gus,
“Finding the exact location of the chasm extruding toxic vapors in American fundygelicalism is an exercise I’ll leave to the reader’s imagination and intelligence.”
++++++++++++++++
i don’t see how it can be just one location…. i mean, so many are eating the same thing, after all.
No, I don’t. And neither do you unless you’ve had a conversation with her about who all “y’all” includes in this context. Nor do you know what I think about this because we have not had a conversation yet. Making accusatory assumptions and statements about what others think and believe is not a great way to find common ground to work through disagreement.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Well said Ken F, no-one understands what OD means, almost all the regulars deny that they don’t know what Mr J means, and extremely few care for Muslin at all.
This is NOT “social media”. This is an old fashioned web page, please respect your international non-commenting readership everybody. OT and NT are full of references to “mind”.
OD, it’s “ridiculous and ignorant” because it is a conflation and you’re not clear with the readership about your motives in all our affairs.
I think the discussion has gone a bit too far. It is imperative for all to realize that there are conservative Christians and progressive agnostics who come here. There are some lines drawn on both sides. If one wishes to learn the thinking of those who disagree with them, then one should be understanding and kind if still not convinced.
Please stop the trajectory of this discussion now and return to the reason for the post. I don’t want to shut down to comments.
This Wednesday is Ash Wednesday. Reflect on it. It’s convicting.
Oracle at Delphi,
Tom, Oracle has indeed intuited something you showed at 7.19 p.m (next thread). For all regulars I propose Dee should plug a “compulsory” course on Reading Theology Wisely: A Practical Introduction by Kent Eilers, pubd 2022, ISBN 978 – 0 – 8028 – 8178 – 6. I predict Ava, Muslin and Mr Jesperson to shine but am sanguine you can all catch up.
I’m sorry, do you deny that your churches teach that LGBTQIA+ people are the worst sinners? And then use this alleged depravity to go to government and ask for laws to force transgender people to detransition (e.g., if a transgender person is in prison, where the state has to pay for the hormones) or not allow *adults* to transition (laws stopping transition or delaying it until age 25)? Do you deny that church people want to overturn Lawrence v. Texas and make gay sex illegal again now that Roe’s been overturned?
The thing the LGBTQIA+ community agrees on is OUR EXISTENCE. So many church people are agreed on one thing too–they don’t want us to exist and they want laws in place so that we are forced back into the closet.
I don’t respect people who expect me to put up with the fact that churches not just say we’re the worst sinners (while ignoring their own egregious sins and covering them up) AND at the same time try to pass laws to make our existence illegal.
My last nerve is being stepped on and I tell you what, I’m on the verge of just saying to h*** with it. You all don’t see the *cruelty* in what you’re doing and I’m very very tired.
You should quit clumping people together as if everyone is against you when we are not. I believe you and I would find ourselves in agreement on quite a few issues if you could get past the stereotypes and stop the false accusations. Behavior like this is ugly from any side that engages in it.
I’m done. I am absolutely DONE. Thanks ever so much, Ken F, for making me realize that people like you are not going to see the enormous damage the churches have done to the LGBTQIA community in the name of Jesus. Farewell.
As to what I take literally? For one I start with the ten commandments. Add on the Great Commission and Jesus telling us we must love God and love other people as ourselves.
Now, for me, whether or not I believe a Mack truck going 90 miles an hour can kill me or not is not the issue. The issue is if I am standing in the road with one coming at me, is it loving or unloving to overrule my opinion and yell at me to get the h-e-double hockey sticks off the road?
I would say the loving thing is yell at me. Obviously others disagree, but that is where I stand.
And for what it is worth, a person can love ALL people without approving of ALL behaviors that person may engage in. If that were not true there would be no peace at all in any home on the planet.
So I will say it again: disapproving of any specific behavior is not the same as hating the people doing those behaviors, be it square dancing or knitting or commandment breaking.
Toning down the rhetoric of hate needs to happen on all sides.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Just wanted to note that you would be missed by me, and, it would be lonely if all the more progressive types left, Christian or atheistic or otherwise (admittedly I would be one of them leaving). However if your sense of what you need recommends leaving, take the recommendation. Love your neighbor as yourself means taking care of yourself as well as your neighbor.
Around 1990 a couple, both pediatric nurses, in Florida began fostering babies who tested positive for HIV+ because their biological mothers had been HIV+ and either dead or incapable of caring for their children. The state had a great deal of trouble finding foster parents because these children weren’t expected to live long. They started with two one year olds, Tracy and Ginger, then, in 1991, took in a 9 week old infant, Bert. At this point one of the nurses, Steven, quit to become a full time carer of their three foster children. In 1994 Bert ceased to be HIV+ (it isn’t unknown for infants who were initially HIV+ to later become not) and the state deemed him to be adoptable. Steven sought to adopt and the state turned him down flat because he was gay. The couple fought to make sure Bert wouldn’t lose the only family he had ever known and lost at the US Supreme Court.
Kick me off, but I’m not going to let this pass. LGBTQIA+ people aren’t trying to pass laws making your beliefs illegal. Christians of all types here in the USA are trying to do just that. The eliminationist rhetoric against transgender people is *shameful*. The desire to overturn Obergefell and Lawrence is just nasty. The laws being passed to ban drag queen story hour, despite the fact that we have a First Amendment is obnoxious.
And then you have the temerity to say that we hate. No, linda, the hate is coming from inside the church, and I have given you examples. And now I am well and truly gone, because there’s no place for me with a bunch of people who have decided that they’re going to say LGBTQIA+ people are engaging in hate, when in point of fact the hate is coming pretty directly from y’all and demonstrated by what you’re doing in the legislatures and the courts.
Repent, we’re tired of this nonsense!
“Drag Queen story hour”, a recent example of which I have seen on Pastor Wade Burleson’s Facebook Page involves the sexual abuse of children through the use of performances in front of children in lewd and sexually provocative dress and chants of crude slogans. The one in Burleson’s film is, “Cheers to you. Cheers to me. Cheers to those who lick us where we pee.” For adults to behave that way in front of children is abusive. I know that this blog was founded to stand against the sexual abuse of children and I know that many in this blog are here for that reason. The abuse of children by adults should never be permitted in any sane and healthy society.
If you think sexualizing young children is a good idea you probably won’t get much sympathy from most people who frequent this blog. My understanding is most LGBTQIA+ are also against drag queen story hour. This is the problem with clumping people into groups and making sweeping generalizations and accusations. I would think that an asexual person would agree with me that our culture has become way too sexualized in general, including heterosexual sexualizing. But I was wrong. I don’t agree with the people in the other extreme who want to do all the things you complain about. But they also have first amendment protections. There is no such thing as free speech when all offensive speech is banned.
Thought I would stop by and see how things were going. Wasn’t planning on commenting but saw this dumpster fire.
I support everything you’ve said.
The fact is Christianity is a mess.
A while ago I pointed out how the bible as written would be considered hate literature under the criminal code of Canada.
This is a reality and is very much a real reason why abuse proliferates.
And any information from Wade Burleson is on the same level as the “Weekly World News” – you know, the tabloid that kept us up to date with the exploits of “bat-boy”.
Stay or go but you won’t change any minds here.
Peace out.
I for one am not interested in anything Wade Burleson has to say. He has some major credibility issues as far as I am concerned.
BTW, Oracle you are the one who started this topic drift.
We’ve been visited by a follower of Eris, Discord, taking the guise of a follower of Apollo, and, she/he/they/it has most effectively trolled.
I’ve seen the same pattern in 20+ years in Furry Fandom.
The Loud Crazies come out of the woodwork to hijack the movement because the rest of us have jobs and lives to get in the way of 24/7/365 screaming OCD. And since the Loud Crazies have no life to begin with (only their Obsession in which they Live and Move and Have Their Being), they can outlast and out-scream all the rest of us.
A Mass Movement does not need a God, only a Devil (and his WITCHES lurking under every bed).
Displacement behavior.
When everything is spiraling out of control, find something trivial you CAN control and Micromanage it to death.
“SEE? I’M IN CONTROL! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
This is something you see in Live-Action Dilbert all the time.
Drag Queen Story Hour is NOT lewd and no, the LGBTQIA community does NOT think it’s child grooming. That’s completely on y’all. I’m going to be blunt–when it comes to arrests of abusers, who is getting arrested? It’s not Drag Queen Story Hour performers. It’s the pastors of your churches, who have been sexually assaulting children, who assault adults. Day after day after day after DAY this happens, but y’all refuse to see it. Instead you people hate the LGBTQIA community so much you make up lies about us so that you feel better as you justify trying to smother our existence by law, custom or both.
As I said, I am COMPLETELY DONE. You all have shown your true colors. You do not see how your actions are hurting people, all the way driving people to suicide. (I’m FINE–a close friend of mine is NOT. Thanks ever so much for making the lives of trans people a living h*ll right now.) I’ve given up on trying to hang on to the barest outer edge of Christianity–you people have made it clear how you feel about that.
How do you evaluate this group: https://www.gaysagainstgroomers.com/about?
Should the not be considered part of your community?
No, actually, “Gays against Groomers” is a far right group. First of all, I’m not a gatekeeper for the LGBTQIA community, but I know a shill group when I see one. Here’s a description of the person who founded the group (from Wikipedia’s article on “Gays Against Groomers”):
This person is, to put it nicely, a conspiracy theorist, and in my personal opinion, should be ignored. You, however, want to elevate her, which says volumes about you.
I’m going to point out that I looked up “drag queen arrest” on Google and came up with ONE arrest of a person in Pennsylvania last July (Brice Williams, downloading pr0n) and several arrests at Drag Queen Story Hour protests. However, when I look up “pastor arrested” and limit it to the last WEEK, what do I get?
* Moises Escoto (youth pastor, arrested for human trafficking, Hillsborough County FL)
* Chad Michael Rider (youth leader, convicted of child pr0n possession, Denton, TX)
* Matthew Reiber (pastor, arrested, lewd acts against a child, Chickasha, OK)
* Fred Gsmmon Jr. (pastor, arrested, child sexual abuse, Ottawa County, OK, and then assaulted by the victim’s family)
* Kenneth Newcomer (not a pastor, but married to the church’s recently retired director of children’s ministry, sex offense and indecent liberties, Raleigh, NC)
I could go on with my search, but I have to get ready to work.
My point is, again, that the problem is NOT with drag queens or the LGBTQIA community. The groomers and assaulters and abusers are overwhelmingly in the church community. And you’ve been on this blog long enough to know that churches have a bad habit of covering up abuse.
“The call is coming from inside the house.” Again, the LGBTQIA community is not the problem, the churchy community IS the problem. But y’all insist on harassing and hating on the LGBTQIA community. I have to ask you, would Jesus do that???
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Very well said. As an exvangelical recovering fundamentalist I extend my sorrow and apology for decades of believing and saying things I thought were required from good men. I was fooled and I’m sorry. What I thought was love and grace wasn’t; now I (along with countless others) must figure out a new path to not do what the evangelical church teaches people to do. It’s oppression, supremacy, and hate. After years of struggle and pain I no longer believe what they teach and I’ve never been happier. Now doing my best to persuade and to inform others (as this blog does kindly and well—while remaining in the ‘inside’) of all the damage the church does to people in the name of God. There are good people within the church whom I care about; it pains me to see them selfishly misled. To all those trying to escape, I wish you peace and healing.
Any law banning or restricting Drag Queen story hours almost certainly has to do the same to some operas (many have roles where female singers are singing male parts written for what are generally female voices), the play Peter Pan (the role Peter Pan is often played by a female actor such as Mary Martin), British pantomime (traditionally one female character, the dame, is played by a man in drag and the hero is often a female actor, it is very popular with kids and has been for well over a century). Single sex schools would be very limited in what plays they could put on if boys can’t play female characters or girls male characters (and remember in Shakespeare’s time and place all female roles were played by men or boys).
I don’t hate people in the LGBTQIA+ community and I don’t harass them. Disagreeing with activities that appear to groom or sexualize children is not hate or harrassment, whether it be from that community or any other community. I will never apologize for believing grooming and sexualizing children is a good idea
Do the LGBTQIA+ people in that group not count as LGBTQIA+ because of their political stance? Should they be discredited for their view? Doesn’t their disagreement with grooming confirm my initial assertion that the LGBTQIA+ community is not any less diverse than any other group?
Parading purposefully sexualized drag queens in front of young children is very different from the examples you provided.
Really? REALLY? You’re going to stick to this? Wearing makeup and a dress is “purposefully sexualized”? Then what about me? I make a point of not wearing makeup (it makes me sneeze) and I generally don’t wear a dress. Are you going to want to have me arrested because I’m wearing a t-shirt and (looks down, today) a pair of plaid leggings, Ken?
I noticed that you *completely* ignored me pointing out that it’s not drag queens being arrested for crimes against children, but pastors. I will point out to you that pretty much every single jurisdiction in the USA has ordinances against “lewd exhibition” (or something similar) and if “Drag Queen Story Hour” was engaged in same, there’s the ordinance.
No, this is much deeper than that. Drag queens, who have a long and storied history (see what Erp wrote right above you), have been caught up in the hatred of transgender people by Evangelicals and fellow travelers. You tell falsehoods about “Drag Queen Story Hour” (remember those “lewd exhibition” ordinances) and that’s because it’s men dressing up as women. Which leads right into the fear expressed by a small but vocal minority (which you may be part of) about men allegedly masquerading as women full time because they’re transgender.
One of my dearest friends is transgender, and this is the kind of *garbage* that is about to push her over the edge. You have decided that LGBTQIA people are the enemy, and transgender people are the utter *worst*. I offered to pay for my trans friend to get therapy but there aren’t enough therapists even out there to care for all the transgender people in crisis. And I lay that right at your feet, because you continue to insist on lying about drag queens and basically implying that transgender people are the most evil out there and should be treated like a piece of garbage stuck to your shoe.
If you want to do something right now, something that would help, you can stop persecuting transgender people, stop attempting to pass laws that would forcibly detransition them, laws that would prohibit transition EVEN FOR ADULTS, and these execrable anti-drag queen laws which are a blatant violation of the First Amendment. But will you do that? You have to stop lying first and recognize you are doing real harm, and I don’t see you doing that, Ken.
/sorry not sorry
Falsely accusing me is not likely to change my mind. What would you do with people like me if you were in charge and could do anything you want to us?
And boom, there it is. The poor me Christianity persecution card.
Christianity has controlled the conversation since forever and now that marginalized groups are getting a seat at the table, they don’t like it.
Christianity has been in charge and we know exactly what it’s capable of.
Trust me, after last year’s so-called freedom convoy here and personally watching about 1200 so called protesters waving Jesus signs march on our city’s largest hospital, I am not concerned about drag queen story hour.
It sounds like you are saying no Christians of any type are allowed to express an opposing opinion on anything related to the LGQBTIA+ community. Group payback is not such a great thing when it plays out.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
My thoughts are with you and your friend. To those who some have chosen as scapegoats to be driven into the wilderness. The some then fear their scapegoats would do the same to them if the tables turned not realizing that all most desire is to be no longer treated as scapegoats.
1 – I recommend to interested regulars and “lurkers”, Reading Theology Wisely: A Practical Introduction by Kent Eilers, pubd 2022, ISBN 978 – 0 – 8028 – 8178 – 6. It doesn’t give answers, it just tells you to each find your OWN different ones.
Just as meaning is in the reader, and in the page as composed when and where and by whom it was composed, and in the world / universe, similarly Holy Spirit has to be given to christians twice: once to indwell, which has no meaning alone since Jesus ONLY came in order to ascend: hence Holy Spirit’s also endowing unvetoed is providential and is for relating (which indwelling alone doesn’t do).
This is why the dominionist moralisers want to manoeuvre us (material dialectic), because they have usurped God’s place and blaspheme Holy Spirit in children and adults. Wagner and Bentley announced world government in 2008.
If more of you would give real background, the discussion would help us along after all.
2 – Linda you are level headed, please parse my comments of the last few weeks for “hate rhetoric”, I don’t get enough feedback and I need it to be frank please.
3 – I’m also devastated * and I think it’s about time regulars here acknowledge that it was the dominionist moralising demoralisers, their consciences bad from not praying for my generation, that got secular blocs to copy them.
Lukas Dhont says distinction is needed between virility ** and an ordinary fact of maleness. In my day masculine, boyish or blokish could mean gentle, retiring, tasteful, emotional . . . I never saw girls and women as an inferior – or even different – element (of course I knew the odd harridan). The one thing wrong that I remember was unequal pay. But no-one cares for what my generation have seen, any more than anyone cared then.
People who had differences were dealt with more tactfully then than now (except perhaps that reportedly surgeons – when needed – on average could sometimes be premature then as now).
God knew we needed the sexual, environment, charismatic etc revolutions so why did christians undermine the world?
4 – Muslin please believe that most of us (semi) regulars and perhaps a lot of “lurkers”, depart partly OR wholly from the total ensemble of views of the vociferous and false blocs which you rightly deplore.
5 – Thank you for the background on Michell. Her purpose like that of Damian Thompson is to discredit others who learned first hand to take an accurate view. I know some individuals who wish to detach peaceably from a specific monolith which they had encountered and who heartily recommend primary purpose all round.
There must be genuine T’s of probably several kinds but they aren’t helped in cases where there have been false intermediaries (I don’t know all the detail of the organisational charts and anyway, they knew who they were so I am not finger pointing by name).
I don’t dispute Muslin’s or anyone’s approval of their representatives knowingly forming coalitions with anyone else’s representatives.
7 – I think rather similarly to Jack (and gladly call myself an agnostic). I’ve said over and over that churches should pull out of marriages. Christians should ask chosen friends for a blessing and any off duty clergy who are there can take off their collars / skinny jeans.
I Kant said that government should not be mixed with religion and also that human love is vital for everybody whereas sexual desire (which world leader JP II hyped) isn’t. But W James, Rorty, Dennett and their “christian” mirror images pooh pooh I Kant (and JP II followed the cliquey Scheler instead).
8 – I would have screamed had anyone inelegant invaded my story hour. I would have been wrongly accused of hate crime. Keep it simple. Stories themselves can contain the diversity that is indeed right.
I did happen to see a video of a moderately prominent drag queen insulting a boy of about 14 in front of classmates (the classmates thought it beneath the DQ as well). Just like any profession or segment of a profession, acceptance can be sought if it will be valued.
9 – Evidently not in the case of Muslin’s friend, but in some other cases a person categorised by their self or others as gay got guilt tripped on moralising grounds about gaiety hence some variety of trans with a ready made “pathway” (itinerary) was urged by their coalition as the next-best proprietary solution.
Please be sure differences from one locality (and country) to another help in deniability and the false always operates behind the cover of the genuine (I’ve been there). Moreover what happens outside squirrel dumpling eating districts will catch up with such districts in under 40 years.
11 – I thought Oracle was “flagging up” hypocrisy about gaiety but Oracle’s carelessness in copying the interlopers’ monopolistic template spoiled the effect which was right to point out per se. Anyone not understand template please?
12 – Please Muslin believe that – outside your country – permit doesn’t mean the same as enforce.
13 – Elements with bad will like it when “christians” gloat over the private parts of children as they started to do in my day. The trouble makers on the so called “christian” side are identical to Savile in mentality, just listen to what they have said, quoted extensively by Dee and Todd over the years.
They like to cause distress and demoralisation which is why they want to persist in doing so, with only a few such as Ashford eventually demurring (apparently). This is why we should stop shaking our heads as if they are church gone wrong or bad mannered.
There are objective agnostic grounds to condemn them. St Paul agreed with the agnostics of Athens when he spoke there. God’s will is to promote the little ones and not to make Himself look grand.
When christians think visually / spatially and admit the principle of principle they will become able to actually observe and debate honestly.
No apologies for “bringing complexity” which Ava has praised.
* https://survivingchurch.org/2023/02/03/unheard-and-un-noticed-but-not-uncommon-why-are-we-so-bad-at-listening/
** which Grudem calls foreskin
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I must have missed some of Jack’s comments but it isn’t in those I spotted, which are general comments and not aimed at participants here.
Erp,
Does pleasant fragrance (Eph 5:2, Ezk 20:41) dispel Pythian Vapours? There is no discord in additive honesty.
I’m not in charge but at this point in time, I am treating you like the conspiracy theorist you have demonstrated yourself to be. That means I will keep a close eye on you and may occasionally reply to you. But stop you? This isn’t my blog.
Oh yeah, I also believe the First Amendment is the law of the land (in the USA, I know that’s not the case elsewhere) so no, I’m not going to work to shut you and your fellow conspiracists’ freedom of speech down. I just wish you and your fellow travelers would stop hating on the LGBTQIA community. That is all.
You can have an opposing opinion all you want, Ken. However, when you and your fellow conspiracists prevail upon legislators to propose and maybe even pass laws that infringe on our rights, that’s where I draw the line.
And that is exactly what is happening right now. Express your opinion all you want, but when laws are passed in an attempt to ban Drag Queen Story Hour (and knowing full well there are already laws on the books against “lewd performance”), that’s an attack. And the other laws proposed and court cases attempted to overturn Obergefell and Lawrence, those are also attacks.
So yeah, keep talking. We need to know you’re out there. But don’t whine when the targets of your legislative and judicial attacks fight back. Because at that point it has gone beyond talking.
‘Jesus’ and hospital don’t rightly belong in that.
Jack,
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ken F, has Muslin been accused of sexualising the environment of the young AND by whom?
You could help Jack, Muslin and me if you added to your comment how you distinguish front organisations whose clients (willing and unwilling) may not agree with them, from the clients.
In parallel, Jack’s word “Christianity” is shorthand for major organisations who are glad to deflect hostility onto us near-agnostics because we are more vulnerable than them.
(You can help with this too, Jack.)
I insist Muslin deserves precision which is a form of honesty.
Ken, what did you think of your authorities’ prayerlessness? Do you agree evangelicals should repent by proxy (like Daniel) for their elders’ high handed omissions?
I couldn’t have said it better. I once lived in hatred and ignorance (which I was taught to call “love the sinner but hate the sin” because it was simply an intellectual exercise). Then I came to know real people as real people and not cardboard cutouts propped up for propaganda purposes. I saw and heard their pain. I learned some things about science (and Bible translation) that I had not known before, and my eyes were opened to the ugliness. And I repented of my former smugness in my ignorance.
My heart goes out to your friend, Dee. And I see you. I’m not sure that the people you’re talking to have the capability to see you. They still have scales on their eyes, I think. But they are unlikely to want to believe that because it threatens to shake the foundations that shape their very reason for being. One way of finding a feeling of belonging, even if it may actually be a false impression, is to “other” others.
(I wonder what the man who built his house upon the sand thought in his days of prosperity?)
Jack,
p.s to my previous comment, forget that I mentioned hospital (one way or another), I just remembered something, in a country not yours. My point: act on secular grounds open to everybody.
refugee,
“One way of finding a feeling of belonging, even if it may actually be a false impression, is to “other” others.”
+++++++++++++
ha…. that’s, like, a really good definition of “unity” that christians love to talk about.
and exploit for all its worth.
I apologize for my feeble attempts to look for potential common ground. I failed to communicate well, and the more I try the worse I make it. My poor communication resulted in you believing the worst about me. I regret that. I am not the enemy you seem to think I am.
I have no idea what this means. If you mean government authorities, I am not a fan of public prayer by people in government while acting in their official roles. When church and state are bedfellows it is never good for the citizens.
I just find the the idea that a cabal of LGBTQ led by Muslin are going to toss you and your co-relgionists into some sort of camp fantastical. That’s the sort of hysteria that’s driven me off this forum.
I’m only commenting in defense of a fellow traveler.
Agreed! I think churches have flourished in the USA because they were not part of the governmental system. Look at countries that have had state churches–now they’re pretty much state churches in name only. The citizens have in some cases gone to other churches or have pretty much dumped the idea of religion. I don’t think we need any of that in the USA.
I agree 100%. It’s good that no one here accused her of that.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“What would you do with people like me if you were in charge and could do anything you want to us?”
Your words, Ken.
Us vs them right? When I went to church, I heard all about the “agenda”.
Last comms, how can you miss me if I’m not gone.
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I asked a question, I did not make an accusation. Muslin made it very clear that people like me (under the umbrella of “y’all”) are a problem because we are driving LGBTQIA+ people to suicide. Do you agree people like me are causing deaths in the LGBTQIA+ community? If we are a problem resulting in people dying, should this problem be solved? If so, how should it be solved? Or should this problem be ignored? What is your recommendation?
No, Ken. Those were your words, so whatever.
My recommendation is Christians stay in their lane. If you don’t want your kids to take part in activities then don’t take part.
You implied that those of us who don’t take issue with something like drag queen story hour would somehow be exposing our kids to something rotten.
As a parent that’s offensive.
Christians can do whatever they want in their church, just don’t dictate it to the rest of us.
And now you can miss me ..
“Don’t really want to make it tough
I just want to tell you that I’ve had enough
It might sound crazy but it ain’t no lie
Baby bye bye bye”
-NSYNC
You are wrong. I did not accuse Muslin of anything. But Muslin accused me and people like me of causing people to commit suicide. Do you agree with her that people like me are causing deaths? If we are, why would you think nothing needs to be done about us?
If I am wrong about drag queen story hour, and it is actually a good, wholesome, and edifying activity for children, its proponents are not wise in their approach because they give the appearance of targeting children and dismissing parents. They should focus on convincing parents it’s a good idea.
Ok, Ken, you win…
“I win… I always win…”
– General Zod, Superman II
It’s not about winning. It’s about seeking truth. I looked for polling data to see how many people support or oppose drag queen story hour. The only polls I could find show parents overwhelmingly oppose it, and supporters are in the minority among most demographics. Can you find polling data showing the opposite? If the majority of adults oppose it, its opposition is not a fringe minority.
Well there is the issue of whether a majority should dictate how a minority lives if what the minority is doing harms no one. I assume you are referring to the Rasmussen poll which is primed to give the result it did
1* Are you a parent or grandparent of school-age children?
2* Many public libraries in America now host “Drag Queen Story Hour,” in which men dressed as women perform for young children. How appropriate for children are such events?
3* Should taxpayer money be spent for “Drag Queen Story Hour”?
Questions like 1 should be asked last (along with questions about age range, male or female). And 2 would likely give very different answers if instead of “performed for” it said “told stories to”. In addition the question is merging two issues, whether it is appropriate for public libraries to host them and whether they are appropriate at all. As it is they still got about 30% of adults to say it was appropriate to have them at public libraries and another 10% who were unsure.
People might find a Yes Prime Minister segment on surveys enlightening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks
That is one of several I saw. I was expecting more info. If you know of better polls can you provide a link.
There is a big difference between being against something vs participating in protests, bullying participants, and lobbying for outlawing the activity. I don’t understand why there is such a backlash against any kind of questioning the risks vs benefits of activities like this. Why has it become untouchable?
It depends on where you live, Ken.
Here in the godless wastes of Soviet Canuckistan, I guess we all are a bunch of horrible parents.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/drag-story-hour-protest-winnipeg-1.6634339
It’s interesting to note that the whole “love that neighbor” schtick for Christianity is really an affectation of the enlightenment. Up till then, it’s followers were pretty smite-o-licious.
Cripes, glad I’m done with it.
Praise be…
I have never participated in a protest or a rally (I don’t like crowds), so I don’t understand what draws people to them. Do you have any polling data? I was surprised by the lack of polling data. If there is broad support for it, it seems like there should be polling data to show it.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ken, even if I did want to invest in the research, it would not change either of our minds. Each side can find the data they want and to be honest, I don’t think drag queen story hour is the biggest hot issue pollsters are putting a lot of effort into.
The absence of data doesn’t prove anything. I’ve found literature for and against so take what you will.
The bible is explicit on what god supposedly thinks about the issue and I’m not embracing that worldview (even when I was a Christian, I didn’t). But I don’t think the stories about talking animals, drunk 500 year old patriarchs and flying people are real either.
So ultimately you’ll think your way and I’ll think mine.
The last word is yours, Ken.
As for me, as the looney tunes cartoon said
“Oh, we are the boys of chorus / We hope you like our show / We know you’re rooting for us / But now we have to go!”
Well, not too much rooting, but I’m kinda like the guest that never leaves….
I’m not sure its a subject good pollsters have looked at. However if you know of any, no matter what the results, can you provide a link?
To quote one source https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/drag-story-hour-protest-winnipeg-1.6634339
“”They see drag queens and they automatically think it’s going to be a club show,” she said. “You really need to realize that these performers can perform on different levels.””
I agree. Muslin accused me of being a right wing conspiracy theorist, so I did some checking and have not been able to validate her accusation. There are few published polls on this. The Rasmussen poll shows about 60% of parents opposed, 30% in favor, and 10% undecided. A poll among Hispanics showed 70% of parents opposed. I don’t recall the source of the other poll I saw, but it has similar resilts. It seems like this is a good topic for pollsters to cover because it is so divisive and visible right now. A possible explanation for why there are no polls showing stronger support is because polls were taken and did not show stronger support, so they did not get attention. But that is an argument from silence. It’s the lack of more polling data that surprises me. In any case, it appears that the oppositon is very likely not just a fringe minority.
The fact that they identify as performers makes me wonder how this will pan out over time. My understanding is gender identity for many people is not something they would call a performance, and it’s not something they can put on and take off at will like changing clothes. Will there eventually be pushback on the performance aspect, similar to how there is now rightful pushback on performances in blackface? Will it be seen as a mockery of people who are transgender or transexual? Or will it become more universally embraced as time goes on. I suspect it is too early to tell because this is the first generation where gender reassignment has gotten much traction and acceptance. There are cases of people detransitioning, and some who feel bitter about being rushed into transition without taking into account other mental health aspects. There should be room for debate without being labeled a bigot for having doubts about some aspects of the LGBTQIA+ movement.
The subject of this post is NAMB. Please stick to the topic. You are welcome to your views on the subject. I respect that. But that’s not what Im discussing here. If that is the topic you wish to discuss, there are a gazillion blogs out there which do so. Thank you for understanding.
Understood. To be fair, I was not the one who brought it up. I joined that part of the discussion three days after others started discussing it. I am the only one who got singled out for it.
No problem, Ken. You won’t hear from me again.
Seriously though, all the best to everyone.
Thanks for the discussion.
Take care.
Jack,
I did read about a parent and child who were actually being penalised, instead of praised for modelling (for those taking part) that those who are on the sidelines are ALSO “for us”, and I can’t remember what country that was in (and perhaps that was the cover for not having enough child supervisers: admitting economic slump or failure of commercialised professional training vision is a worse ideological offence).
Myself, I don’t “single out” professed non-believers. On smiting please see my other comment. I genuinely did think this is connected with the thread title (it relates to spiritual tyranny). I think the discussion went downhill after some people missed a chance to help Muslin, then the chance kept being missed to help Jack help Muslin.
Over-generalising, and more over-generalising, never helps discussions about humanity. So called “polls” tell us what they tell us, and not more than that (as better scholars have pointed out for 200 years), hence are rarely useful in decisions.
If we detach ordinary people facing phenomenological * predicaments, whose habitus ** needs respecting (that is the part that memes *** address themselves to), from power grabbing interlopers (I’ve lived through this which is why I affirm Muslin as individual) (and Scripture does say we should use more imagination) we can set a good example that will ripple out.
* how do you experience experience, which is the joint foundation of knowledge
** Bruce Ashford praises Bourdieu who is one of the scholars who speaks up for habitus.
*** Dawkins has explained memes (at a brief level) more clearly than Blackmore. Semiotics operates throughout nature as well as culture and languages: C S Peirce and R Barthes are good on this; and also all words are metaphorical in etymology, and all grammar is metaphorical. Mimetics in folklore have been described by R Girard but are misused by cult operatives to replicate the victim mentality.
– more mistaking of bloc-building interlopers for the people affected. Muslin, I do not see you as bloc building, yourself: it is your real adversaries that are doing so, and careless apparent adversaries (like ones Ken F might be trying to follow) copy their paradigm (template)
– more conflating many communities (free to ally freely WITH their primary purposes in mind) with one sole one
– I would have bawled. Parents know why their child is frightened (I’ve been there again) by what their child is frightened by, but aren’t good at articulating it (with authorities so dismissive about child development) and the power grabbers are clever and use arguments around statute law
– Elegance is an underrated virtue that would speak volumes for those genuinely wanting to crush the spiritual tyranny that solidified in the early 1980s. Moralisers demoralise
– Some of drag artistes could do better of they get away from copying the ad hominem technique of the cult operatives; while organisers could make drag artistery a less central plank of their strategy. Elegance and acceptance can be modelled by characters in stories
– How can adults kindle imagination in children when they don’t have the level of it I had? Holy Scripture calls us to have MORE imagination
Sometimes in their cause-hopping they may light upon one they aren’t trying to undermine, but aren’t good at helping us see that.
Later, Jack missed a chance to agree with (quote follows here):
Jack on Sat Feb 25, 2023 at 10:32 AM said:
Ken F (aka Tweed): You are wrong. I did not accuse Muslin of anything. But Muslin accused me and people like me of causing people to commit suicide.Do you agree with her that people like me are causing deaths? If we are, why would you think nothing needs to be done about us?
If I am wrong about drag queen story hour, and [BEGIN BOLD] it is actually a good, wholesome, and edifying activity for children, its proponents are not wise in their approach because they give the appearance of targeting children and dismissing parents * [BEGIN BOLD]. They should focus on convincing parents it’s a good idea.
Ok, Ken, you win…
“I win… I always win…”
– General Zod, Superman II
Ken F (aka Tweed) on Sat Feb 25, 2023 at 10:42 AM said:
Jack: Ok, Ken, you win…
It’s not about winning. It’s about seeking truth. I looked for polling data to see how many people support or oppose drag queen story hour. The only polls I could find show parents overwhelmingly oppose it, and supporters are in the minority among most demographics. Can you find polling data showing the opposite? If the majority of adults oppose it, its opposition is not a fringe minority (quote ends)
Ken F led Jack off point by reverting to a poll obsession. A poll obsession makes one look like one is out to “always win” (a misuse of the “majority rule” metaphor).
But they aren’t anyway!
I meant your church authorities: the Bible doesn’t order us to accept the same paradigm (template) as them. I mentioned the prayer of Daniel 9: 3-21. Daniel got reduced to a “gotcha” by apologetists (pointless according to recent hermeneutics which suggests placing both Cyrus and Daniel differently).
I have caught up with some of the comments on comments, that were on my conscience. This is not “social media”, this is an old fashioned web page. If we’re interested in the world and humanity, we can use our articulacy (again, I’ve been there) more, and slow down enough for the next person to catch up.
It BECAME an affectation of “naive idealist”, “naive realist” and “naive monist” segments of the “Enlightenment” fuelled by the materialism of after the Crusades and Black Death.
Berkeley, an Irish colonialist, comes to mind.
By contrast Kant who urged the separation of religion and government (and was silenced by a king for it), insisted that human beings should be seen as not means only, but as ends for ourselves.
Henry VIII’s henchpeople destroyed much knowledge, while only a few people rescued some.