“So we’ve asked CJ [Mahaney] to teach on the pastor’s self-watch, to watch his life and doctrine closely, something that he’s not only taught, but he models very well.
Because we want to be pastors who love Jesus and it marks our life. We are passionate about Christ.
I know we’ve asked Jeff [Purswell] to do a session on theological integrity and consistency, because as we expand globally, that’s what we must maintain, theological integrity and theological consistency.
And then we’ve asked, Jared Mellinger to do a session on Apostolic Mission. We still believe in the gift of apostolic ministry. And we want to be doing apostolic mission work, including pioneering work, by planting churches and sending missionaries and reaching the unreached. So, we’re going to talk about that and do some Q & A over that.
And then we’ve asked Jon Payne to do a session on apostolic care for churches because we want to continue to build relationally. We want to care for Elderships and care for churches.”
Mark Prater, Sovereign Grace Churches Executive Director.
“One Retreat to Rule Them All”, February 6, 2023
The SGC’s “Retreat to Rule Them All” is now over and the cadre of Sovereign Grace apostles have returned to their home churches to do apostle-lee things. I would be happy to see a few miracles performed. Nothing real attention-grabbing mind you, I would settle for a few minor miracles such as SGC leaders telling the truth about their past and actually modeling humility.
Speaking of humility, did you know CJ Mahaney wrote a book on the subject? I wonder if in his speech to his fellow apostles (surely he will be granted the title of apostle once again) he let it be known that his speech on “watching your life and doctrine closely ” (a speech he has given frequently in earlier days) was, dare I say, “borrowed” heavily from Brent Detwiler? That’s right, Detwiler first taught on the subject at “Celebration East” in May 1997. (See the screenshot below.) You will see he also taught the same subject at “Celebration Mid-South” and “Celebration Canada.” Detwiler also taught the same subject to the young men in “The Pastor’s College.” Sometime later Mahaney started preaching on the subject.
Back to the subject of apostles, I find it weird that SGC has decided to once again embrace this position. Back in their earlier days when they were actually Charismatic in their doctrine they had apostles. I believe I became a member of Sovereign Grace Gilbert (now Center Church) in 2002. My wife and I met with Trey Richardson prior to being offered the official “right-hand of fellowship” and at the end of the meeting he asked if we had any questions. I said yes, I had one. I wanted to know what was up with this “apostle thing?” I said every church I heard of with apostles was a cult! (My brother was a member of a church plant in Minneapolis from Abott Loop in Anchorage. They had apostles and were, IMO, a cult.) I further stated that I thought a requirement to be an apostle was to have seen the risen Christ.
Trey replied that was true of “big A” Apostles in New Testament times, but Sovereign Grace had “little a” apostles. I should have followed my convictions, but I tamped them down and became a member. But just think of all the fun I would have missed had I not! Below is an article by former Sovereign Grace apostle Dave Harvey. In my opinion, Harvey’s convoluted explanation of present day apostles is what everyone else in evangelical Christianity would call a missionary.
As Mahaney and his fellow apostles attempted to build their brand and gain respect with the likes of RC Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper, Mark Dever, Al Moehler, and Ligon Duncan,it soon became obvious to them they had to dump the whole apostle thing. So much for “theological consistency” that Prater mentions in the video below. Mahaney’s run-away church plant in Louisville has went so far as to become a member of the SBC!
It now appears that apostle Prater (may I call you that Mark?) having been shunned by the T4G and TGC boys thinks turning back to SGC’s old Charismatic/apostlic ways will help rebuild their brand. It may sell in Africa, or the Philippines, but I’m doubtful it will gain many new giving-units in the USA.
LOLOLOLOL
These guys actually think they are apostles. There is no shame.
That video was amazing!
Maybe it’s just me, but there’s just something about an “Apostle” in a baseball cap and hooded sweatshirt that just doesn’t come across apostolic enough.
1 Timothy 5:22
“Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.”
I believe that is still relevant even if someone says God told them something, showed them something, gave them a vision, etc.
How many modern roads lead to “church planting” as a justification for big asks and big spending, ones that often may have as the first non-negotiable funding the vision caster as it were and the next one controllable assets and moving parts needing funding as well?
How many of those call for extraordinary levels of selfless giving, perhaps on the basis that God can then do above and beyond what the winsomely-sheared sheep can imagine? Might that also mean those willing to examine such asks on spiritual and temporal levels could be charged with not being faithful enough to God and / or the leader (sic) with the vision?
Those guys claim to be Apostles huh?
They’ve got gall, I’ll give them that.
This might be their way of introducing the weed of Calvinism into the NAR, ARC and similar Pentecostal and Charismatic groups (which historically have NOT been Calvinist, and in the case of groups such as the Assemblies of God are Arminian in theology).
Well, Catholics, Orthodox, and some Anglicans believe that their bishops are in “apostolic succession.” And apostolic succession is explicitly taught by the Early Church Fathers, beginning *at least* with Clement (who knew the Apostles personally) in the late first or early second century. (Moreover, he was basing his teaching on even earlier testimony. See the selection of Matthias in the Acts of the Apostles.)
But, of course, that’s a very different thing from the allegedly revived “apostolic” office of these self-appointed “new apostles.”
My neighbor is into this New Apostolic stuff. Don’t get me started.
New Calvinism has been making inroads into AOG. Driscoll is now a Charismatic-Calvinist; he has been a featured speaker at some AOG churches in recent years.
This isn’t a comeback. All these phrases and proceedings are standard New Frontiers (now a number of mutually allied “associations”) (Virgoists), always has been, hasn’t stopped, and continues to be. This is why Terry (to my then shock, which shouldn’t have been shock) got Smyth a placing.
We’ll find out one future day, who have really given “apostolic” ministry in our day, it doesn’t have a job title. It is probably unknown people who pray a lot for us. NF are a Calvinist-Arminian hybrid, as are most C of E churches. The only difference is that the latter are less overt organisationally.
“Watching over” is a key phrase. In the part of NF I knew (like some C of E), many unimportant individuals manifest spiritual gifts of discernment and intuition but the practical benefit gets stymied by deferring to heavy-handed organisers.
An upper class of informally emergent leadership teams get the lion’s share of mentoring and brag of connections long standing and newly acquired. Most congregants washed in from insufficiently dissimilar churches and wash out again to other, insufficiently dissimilar ones. Yes, it does mean giving units for the foreseeable.
I would go back to my NF friends immediately if I got a bus ticket sorted out and if not for their deference to just two stagnant but dominant local individuals: the amplifying was mostly nice. I would ignore the higher echelons when they “come on screen” or get talked about.
I don’t trust the higher-ups with the people they have claimed to be looking after elsewhere (a problem I’ve noticed in several different denominations) and would only want to look out for my immediate friends.
Took a break from the Super Bowl … couldn’t watch the halftime show, too disgusting … doesn’t take much to entertain America or the church, as evidenced by this post.
“…I would settle for a few minor miracles such as SGC leaders telling the truth about their past and actually modeling humility.”
Humility? From guys who attended a conference entitled “Retreat to Rule Them All”?
Gee, I wonder who the “Them” is, and who gets to “Rule”.
“These guys are Apostles” is plea.
When you hear this line, rise up and flee!
The inner circle, the inside scoop, the secret sauce, annointing, revelation, etc. For purchase, via books, conferences, retreats, podcasts, Patreon subscriptions, etc. When there’s power and money involved, watch out.
It was Simeon and Anna who recognized Jesus. They came out of nowhere into the NT, then disappeared back to nowhere.
In Luke, in accordance with Mosaic Law, Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem to present the newborn Jesus to the Lord and offer up turtledoves as a sacrifice. Simeon, a just man encouraged by God’s Holy Spirit, met the three at the Temple that day. Anna, who lived in the Temple, talked of the Child “to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem”.
There are those among us who are connected with God and bring God’s message. What does that look like? It looks like Simeon and Anna.
Did Simeon and Anna take up a collection or sell their message from God? No.
In 2022, I purchased both “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristen Kobes DuMez and “The Making of Biblical Womanhood” by Beth Allison Barr. They both work real jobs as historians & professors, and I purchased their historical research. I also bought “Strongmen” by Ruth Ben-Ghiat, another professor historian.
However, anyone selling anything that has to do with God’s message is suspect, IMHO.
Everything about Jesus, the Apostles, and the NT church is neither for sale, nor a business. Never.
The final quote in Todd’s post about rebuilding the brand for giving units sums up the post well. Snake oil sales is all this is.
Belonging is essential in our human experience. As Christians, if we belong to God directly and stay in His Word for ourselves, hopefully we stay out of the snake oil racketeering of capitalistic fake faith. Hopefully, we connect with each other in godliness like Simeon and Anna.
Historically the title, apostle, was also given to those who were successful missionaries to new people (e.g., apostle of the Irish [Patrick], apostles of the Slavs [Cyril and Methodius], apostle of the English [Augustine of Canterbury], apostle of the Franks [Remigius]), but, usually well after they were dead and it was clear they were successful.
Beware of anyone who self-proclaims to be an Apostle or a Prophet. These days, you even have to doubt many who call themselves Pastor (as documented by frequent TWW posts).
Titles and entitlement.
Did they build up empires or dynasties? What was their bottom line with regard to money, sales, budget, their financial support?
In the NT model, a traveling apostle or evangelist was to seek and receive room and board along their journey. That’s it.
There are Catholics who take a vow of poverty. Where is this among Evangelicals? Is this one of the pillars of “Protestants” – to protest the vow of poverty, and thus build up an empire … for God?
“If you ever encounter a preacher who has titled himself ‘Apostle’ or ‘Prophet’, RUN!”
— My writing partner (the burned-out country pastor)
I’d like to hear Chuckles Mahaney (i.e. Captain Picard’s Evil Twin) give HIS trace of Apostolic Succession from the original Dodeka.
Excellent observation, succinctly explained.
I would make a clear distinction between a “missionary” and an “Apostle” as follows:
A “missionary” is anyone, anyone at all, who leaves their home country to do something “Christian” in another country. This includes everything under the sun including: teaching English, pastoring a church overseas, running an orphanage (which I would never support given how much abuse goes on in those places), teaching at a seminary, working at a medical clinic, running marriage retreats for national Christian workers. The list goes on. I have met thousands of missionaries like this in my three decades serving overseas.
By contrast I have met only a handful of true apostles because such a person is a leader who engages at the level of country/people group by starting new church movements among an entire people group. Almost no one is gifted to do that, and among those who are gifted few ever reach that level of actual performance. Because it’s hard work.
I know personally (and have worked with to varying degrees) three men alive whom I consider to be Apostles. NONE of them would accept that title for themselves. These men are humble, hard working, honest, not in it for personal gain, and self sacrificing near to the point of embarrassment.
I also know of about a dozen others like them scattered across Asia and Africa, one of whom is a woman. You wouldn’t know the names of these people if I told you because they are ALL hidden workers who don’t want to be known. Refreshing isn’t it?
Dave Harvey in the article above is correct- a modern day apostle doesn’t have to raise the dead. Yet what my apostolic-gifted colleagues do is miraculous because through years of building relationships, training others and casting vision they move ordinary people to change what they’re doing to reach an entire people group. That takes real character empowered by God.
However let’s be clear. Hudson Taylor, Patrick of Ireland- they were apostles. Mahaney and his crew, along with the “super apostles” of the New Apostolic Reformation? Don’t think so. Those men and women stand on stages calling one another by titles they think they have earned simply because they spoke on stages around the world. No. If it’s about exporting a brand to the ends of the earth then it’s not apostleship.
Baseball cap indoors. And the hooded sweatshirt. Maybe he doesn’t have the heat on in the attic there.
or his mother’s basement
Reckon where they want a back door in this place?
I always thought that apostles (little ‘a’) just refers to someone the church has sent out on a mission of some sort. The BIG A Apostle is someone sent directly (in person) by Jesus. Those have all long been dead. And “Acts 29” forgets that it is the Acts of the Apostles, NOT the Acts of the Church.
They are selling hoo hockey on steroids. Maybe if they claim to be Calvinists they need some time in Scotland with the folks that meet on the moors and only sing the psalms?
Another church sure spending a lot of time on dishing out titles. So glad for my small church just trying to “outdo one another in love” and being servants. I gave a ride to an elderly lady who was told not to drive anymore. I know there is no special award or title for that but I am sure I am doing the Lord’s work. Then again I am a woman, so what do I know.
If you dress like that in an official function at his age, you’re doing something wrong in your life.
Maybe time to grow up? You’ll never be cool again, y’know.
Max,
Peaked ceiling: probably a room over the garage.
linda,
Now where did that come from?
It is estimated that some 17000 Covenanters in Scotland were murdered, imprisoned or banished during The Killing Times and 27000 were murdered in The Irish Massacres of 1641-1642. That’s why there are fewer than 500 of us left in Scotland and only a few thousand in Ireland. All for singing Psalms on windswept moors.
Yes.
Thx for your examples, both positive and otherwise.
Nice song from Matthew West and Carly Pearce.
He can’t be cool anyways, cuz’ he doesn’t have his ball cap on backwards.
Fisher,
Excellent! And, thank you….
Seeing the risen Lord as a requirement for being an Apostle? As usual, I have a different take on this than most. This is because I have seen Jesus five times now and I am no apostle, nor pastor, nor anyone special in any narcissistic way. The five times were in dreams true. But Paul saw Jesus in a vision with a sign. So, logically speaking, visions and dreams can not be ruled out completely in a consistent fashion. Otherwise Paul was not an apostle. Also, 200 saw Jesus before his ascension but only 11 were apostles. So, logically speaking, apostles in the Bible are a subset of everyone who actually saw Jesus.
Adding to this, my ex said that she saw Jesus in a church when she was 7 years old. Then she got mad at God and did not pursue God as an adult. She is no apostle. Was not even a disciple in any way when we divorced. And from my background of over 50 years now I have met some others who claim to have seen Jesus in a vision or dream. None of them that I personally knew are claiming some kind of special authority to make themselves into a big celebrity. So I look at such things differently than those theo-bros who coined the limitation to the first century and like to use it.
Now, I have no doubt that some of the claims of seeing Jesus are just imaginations and not true visions. Others are lying and they know it. But to claim that 100% of all claims made by all Christians are imaginations and lies goes even beyond a cruel cynical judgment of everyone who says such things. It is to believe that the same God who inspired men who wrote the Bible to now be basically dead. If God can choose men 2,000 ago, then why is He so inept or feeble that He can no longer do so? And if He revealed himself to whomever he chose in old times then why is he so feeble that he cannot do so today? Again, I have a different perspective on such things.
An apostle is not a title to use to manipulate others into doing your bidding. And it is God that does the calling. It does not matter if few men recognize that. To me it is something the called do. Posers talk a big talk but do not actually do anything, hence easy to tell that they are not apostles. In this way I agree with Fisher.
What the church is.
However, what some of these so-called “religious leaders” aren’t. But they continue on with their showmanship and gathering crowds that pay up, in their co-dependent industrial complex system. Branding and rebranding, reinventing. A “fresh” word.
What some people call fellowship with God is obviously not fellowship with the God that some others of us know, believe, seek, and follow. Read between the lines. Watch the character while muffling the words.
“These people are a stench in my nostrils, an acrid smell that never goes away.” (Isaiah 65:5)
And Mary Magdalene is called “the Apostle to the Apostles.” I wonder how the Sovereign Grace folks would deal with *that*!
BTW today, February 14, is the Feast Day of Saints Cyril and Methodius, Apostles to the Slavs. I understand something else is going on, too, but I can’t put my finger on it….
Wow, if you can give yourself the title of “Apostle” think of all the authority you can give yourself. Why you should never have to listen to criticism that you don’t like. You can escape all accountability for just about anything. Anyone that defies you, you can just throw out of the church.
This must be grand for the person that can pull it off. But I don’t think it is actually very good for the soul of one calling themselves “Apostle”. Anyone remember the fall of CJ Mahaney and the Sovereign Grace movement? How many churches fled? What was the decrease in revenues?
Some people will never learn.
If you hear of someone who calls themselves “Apostles” little or big “A”, run as fast as you can from that church or any church affiliated with them.
Although they’d never come right out and admit it, their anti-Catholic bigotry would show up in some ‘Biblical’ push-back.
And it’s not just them, plenty of the Calvary Chapel (non-reformed) ‘pastors’ would come up with the same.
lowlandseer–exactly! These foolish ones we have here have no idea what a real Calvinis is, or what real persecution is, or what real leadership is! They could learn a thing or three from the real deal, then come back and talk!
The level of apostolic power in the pulpit is directly proportional to the degree of gullibility in the pew.
I’ll never forget the time my Word of Faith neighbor set up a pulpit in her living room for her weekly ladies’ Bible study. It had been a fairly innocuous gathering before that, albeit somewhat cringe worthy, but that pulpit conveyed, “I am now your self-appointed pastor.” It was weird and creepy, and it just went downhill from there.
I shouldn’t say all this, as I am trying not to gossip. But it happened, and the other weird stuff happened, too, and I am still processing it. Apparently the New Apostolic folks also think they have dominion over their neighborhood and beyond, and thereby hangs a tale, which I won’t go into now. Let’s just say that it’s all seriously weird.
At that point, it became ‘her’ church and not the ladies’ Bible study.
Bob Dylan wrote that song, “Gotta Serve Someone”.
There must be a counter-part: “Gotta Rule Someone”.
Exactly. And I was blindsided. I didn’t sign up for that.
LOL, yup.
Control freaks are the bane of my existence.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
Was this the same neighbor who thought there were demons in the azalea bushes, or something like that? Someone here mentioned a neighbor like that a while ago, but I don’t remember who specifically….
Actually in Ireland it was probably more for colonizing Ireland (plantation of Ulster). The Catholics there also have long memories of massacres and famine their kin were the victims of. Practically no side was innocent (and there were a lot of sides and shifting allegiances).
Erp,
The interesting point about this is that some of the worst atrocities committed by Cromwell (and attended by some of the most famous Puritan Divines) were publicly challenged and opposed by Covenanter ministers in Glasgow).
It is also well documented that Irish and Highland clans were used as mercenaries to rid the Lowlands and Southern Scotland of Covenanters.
But it’s a point well made that neither side was blameless.
Mr. Jesperson,
Thank you Mr J for your helpful addition to our analyses. Their having “seen the Lord” in some way not expounded, was a temporary informal rule of thumb for some of them. St Paul (who was far more agreeable than most Christians say) claimed to be the “least of” apostles and even set the superapostles’ minds at rest that he was more foolish (in industrial profile) than they – but not in terms of the wilful disdainment of background knowledge (nihilism) that the dominionists are currently imposing on Christians and non-Christians alike.
One of Gomer’s children (in Hosea chapters 1 – 2) was “Not pitied” and one was “Not my people”, as studied contrast with our (real) God’s intent to declare us “Children of the living God”, adopted and bestowed with loving kindness in all ways, not just moralistic ways.
St Paul (him again) says let not the ear complain of one who is or is not a foot, or the arm despise the unknown and unseen.
As Jacob Velazquez (for example) puts it,
“We just need you to help us discover what [our talents] are.”
That doesn’t mean confect and define: it means Christians will get shocked by other Christians, and after that, by their own selves. “Post Columbians” (who are also big in the UK) make out Capt Cook invented the continents: a degraded variant of “positivism”.
Christians should stop despising their own potential to help each other along. Christianity as projected (in the UK at any rate) is nigh on 100 % isolating “individualism” (which unbeknownst to those individuals, is hurting them). Punters who “engage” are easy pickings for prayerless, feel-good, brownie point hunting. There isn’t going to be a “system” to substitute for it.
The real God has principle in His economy. Industrialisation (in things like religion), as Roland Barthes pointed out in his essay “Loyola”, strips good of meanings. (Theocracy – including “secular theocracy” – is jesuitism on steroids.)
Discernment above all means, stop rejecting the good that someone else knows. To witness is to have seen what God sees, in Nature and human dynamics and productions. To bear witness is to talk about all things with each other. It is not to have “approved” theologians second-guess our “holy talk”.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
Pulpit and pew, so, our 21st Century version of “church”. Look how far we’ve come … far and away from Jesus.
The lady is just doing what all the guys do, the theobros. Now she can write books, speak at conferences, and plead for then order up her personal airplane. What the guys do.
Oops, she’s a woman, so guess not. Won’t work. But she’s tryin’.
“Caring for those under your care creates influence not a title position, not entitlement.” – Simon Sinek, re: leadership, titles, entitlement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efGLdwPOWSw&t=4s
Your story reminds me of people telling me that a Marxist from South America is the head of the whole church throughout the world. Because, of some sort of bad interpretation of Clement to the Corinthian church in the 1st century. It is ridiculous what some people will go through to appoint an authority figure, isn’t it?
It’s amazing how many “control freaks” end up in American pulpits when Scripture challenges them to have impeccable character, a humble teachable spirit, a holy walk with God that gives them credibility, a deep love and burden for people and souls, an empathetic heart for the struggles of others, a clear and personal love for Jesus, etc. If you have a control freak pastor, he wasn’t sent to you by God.
Update:
Some weeks ago I asked for prayer over a situation where a self-confessed and convicted child molestor is head deacon at a church I was once a part of. That is the bottom line. God wanted me to address it and let me know years in advance. The situation went longer than what I expected for dealing with it. The meeting was only the start. But it has now become clear that nothing will be done about it. That is no surprise to me or I would imagine to anyone else here.
The good news in this, I suppose, is that this church is dying. They have old Sunday School rooms that are empty because there is no children. The church shrinks with funerals. Their head pastor retired last year. The stucco on their buildings is falling off with the paint. There is a cactus growing on top of an awning 8 feet in the air. All things I just saw. Decay in the midst of the richest town in the whole state. This church is headed quickly towards bankruptcy. And thank God for that! At least there are no children there to be at risk.
After an interim pastor explained that the Word of God does not apply because of gifting of the man on the public sex offender list, not character, he proceeded to start to lecture me about my unchurched status. Such a common spirit these days. The arrogance of it all. Instead of acknowledging that he is part of the problem, make it about the messenger.
While I would never say that I am done with church as Jesus does have one even though it is tiny and hard to find, I am certainly done with what we have built here in America. I would complain about a lack of respect but that goes with the territory. I realize that it is because the real Jesus gets no respect either. Sometimes even here…
Hell-low everyone! I just wanted to take personal credit for a statement some of y’all may of read:
“Grace Church’s elders do not publicly discuss details arising from counseling and discipline cases—especially on social media. Nor do we litigate disputes about such matters in online forums. Grace Church deals with accusations personally and privately in accordance with biblical principles. We do not respond to attacks, lies, misrepresentations, and anonymous accusations. Our church’s history and congregation are the testimony. Myriads of Grace Church members who have sought counsel at our church will testify that the counsel they receive is biblical, charitable, supportive, and liberating.”
Some of my uppity minions have been claiming they inspired this one. Believe me when I tell you it’s had my personal attention. Brilliant! If I do say so myself.
Ravenously yours,
Uncle Satin
Max,
Max,
I’m currently in the throes of trying to figure out what has happened to our pastor of six years who has suddenly become a control freak, bringing people into his office for private conferences about gossip, anonymously berating members from the pulpit (although we in the congregation know who he is talking about), and just not being the person we thought we called. So far I haven’t had a direct confrontation, but I’m praying there will be a correction from our leadership team, unless they are all in cahoots with him. I have information from different sources that I think something may blow soon. I’m really committed to the ethnic ministry I’m involved with that has some autonomy from the main congregation, so I am on wait and see.
Trey replied that was true of “big A” Apostles in New Testament times, but Sovereign Grace had “little a” apostles.
What!!! “Little a” apostles…. I just about spit my coffee all over my computer screen..
The extremes people go to because they crave power…… sigh..
We’ve only ever had the best Apostles! CJ chief among them!
He probably read Dever’s “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church”, which has resulted in your new unhealthy church.
Oh good grief.
Tell me you’ve never read the rest of the patristic corpus without telling me….
BTW, was I attacking your church? Didn’t think so.
Actually female preachers are widely accepted in Word-of-Faith Land. Female apostles, too!
Yep, that’s the one. Except that she thought the demon was in *me.” LOL!
Linn,
Sorry to hear this, that’s a tough situation to be in. Did something change recently in their personal or professional position that could have triggered the perception that things are out of control (or that they are in a secure enough position to let their true personality show)? Not asking for informational purposes, just something to maybe think about.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Sarah,
I have no idea, except that he is older with some major health issues. I am wondering if he thinks he needs to retire before he accomplishes his “legacy.”
And that Emperor Charles V sent Lutherans to sack the Pope’s Rome, so that only a few years later a pope decided not to cross him when Charles’ aunt’s husband Henry VIII filed for divorce, royal divorces being routinely rubber stamped up to that point, thereby creating an unprecedented moralistic impression; no doubt there should have been negotiating on the terms, and perhaps Henry would have “found cause” to thieve the social security system anyway; hence the parish poor rate from Elizabeth’s time, and increasing enclosures up to the 19 th century.
Perhaps she has been in a “new movement”, after all this is only the “Logos” (horizontal church) variant on having a home shrine.
Max,
Jesus occasionally said, look at Me, the Old Testament God says through prophets, look at Me, alone I save. He isn’t claiming exceptionalism for our elders and betters to emulate: He represents the little ones in need.
When the little ones can shine because we are upholding their ministry in our supplications, the trickle-up effect will redeem our pastors and elders.
To eisegese, I see that as a probable message behind this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFS6Kaorqk
0:01 / 4:42
Jacob Velazquez & Ashley Marina from AGT – Time to Shine (Official Video)
(The boxers may have been told they have to be enemies but they are really meant to help teach each other astuteness and strength.)
An 18 th century Frenchman said that in the 21 st century English Christians will be courageous (his name: de Montfort) (and no doubt there are similar statements about other countries); so every Glory Be that you mutter, without even knowing whom it is for, it will strengthen my friends’ children, so thank you.
Any vision / locution / inkling / hunch should lead us to intercede for those in need of trickle-down and trickle-up.
Weird interlopers aimed to discredit (or didn’t know they were discrediting) eschatology, soteriology, providence, the gifts, above all prayer. All those matters always were normal, we weren’t supposed to throw them out, just get them right.
Christians need more: imagination, philosophy, repetition – only not the vain kinds (sophistry).
So what do I know? I didn’t know this.
Little ‘a’ apostles for a little ‘g” god?
They’re walking perimeters and setting Wards?
Casting Hexes?
Driving out Demons left & right like the Seven Sons of Sceva (before they ran into a REAL one)?
Next step: go mano-a-mano with the Demon Queen of Heaven atop Mount Everest.
Like PastorRaulReesCalvaryChapelWestCovina, whose anti-Catholicism was literally impossible to exaggerate.
The exclusive claims of the Catholic Church are what they are. Because you choose to pretend they are not there, doesn’t change that fact. Have you never heard of the Council of Trent? Did the Catholic Church anathematize Faith Alone? Grace Alone? etc.
There is someone who doesn’t know their history, but it isn’t me.
Ken A,
I think we have a new regular Troll.
Replacing Seneca and his aliases.
(Speaking of our former regular Troll, he was Wondering Eagle’s regular troll for a couple years but went silent a month or two ago. Probably moved on to another blog.)
Yeah, I’ve heard Rees on Christianese air-waves here in SoCal.
I’m bettin’ he runs his church like a Latin-American dictatorship.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
Actually my prayers are with you Catholic Gate Crasher. My hope is that you are very sincere that you really don’t know what actual Catholic Doctrine is. When I was a Catholic I didn’t. I remember when I first started investigating it after the Lord saved me, I was shocked. When I first trusted in the finished work of Christ Alone for my salvation from my sin and my hope for eternal life I was so overjoyed at the truth of it all. How could God be so good to me a sinner? He is just amazing to take me from an understanding where I had to keep so many rules, which I couldn’t, to the free gift of Salvation. God is so Good!
Fundagelical history is nothing to crow about either.
Are you aware of that?
What on earth does ANY of that have to do with the discussion at hand? I’m not trying to proselytize you. I’m just relating my wonky experience with my Word of Faith neighbor. That’s all.
I am so confused. Why are you bringing up all this? If you want to debate Catholic claims, well, I would respectfully suggest that this is not the proper venue for that.
I’m still wondering which worldwide religion Che Guevara is leading. 😉
“NO POPERY!”, of course.
The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648, and over 300 years later you can find Christians who still haven’t gotten the news.
Don’t you know, Muff?
“MY church is the True Church and Can Do No Wrong.”
Moses Model, just like Papa Chuck did.
I remember PastorRaulReesCalvaryChapelWestCovina (all one word) using the “Mystery Babylon: Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz” terminology of Hislop’s Two Babylons. Alberto Rivera might also have been in the mix; after 40 years the memory starts getting foggy.
I DO know his tag line whenever anyone tried to reason with him was “Show Me SCRIPTURE!”
“Show Me SCRIPTURE!”
“Show Me SCRIPTURE!”
She looked at you and saw you as an azalea bush?
Her Spritual Discernment(TM) needs some serious recalibrating.
I believe the Secular Humanist term is “delusional”.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Not really the case.
“ The war or series of connected wars began in 1618, when the Austrian Habsburgs tried to impose Roman Catholicism on their Protestant subjects in Bohemia. It pitted Protestant against Catholic, the Holy Roman Empire against France, the German princes and princelings against the emperor and each other, and France against the Habsburgs of Spain. The Swedes, the Danes, the Poles, the Russians, the Dutch and the Swiss were all dragged in or dived in. Commercial interests and rivalries played a part, as did religion and power politics.”(History Today, 350th anniversary, Oct 1998)
War is one of the most profitable enterprises an investor can be into.
The Crusades alone made vast fortunes for the Venetian shipping magnates.
Ken A,
You perhaps don’t know about the increased triumphalism, prayerlessness, cynicism and absolutism of the RCC, of the last 75 years, or you wouldn’t set yourself their low bar – which won’t clear you in Jesus’ eyes.
(At least, in my young day, it was still selectively lax in wrongs, in some places outside Ireland / Australia, and outside its schools which were not existing in my district.)
Christ doesn’t exempt you “reformed baptists” from the work of prayer for your peers and the young, any more than He will exempt the Romans from it, for all their “new movements” or their disdaining of baptisms, conversions and consciences.
Most protestants were just as uncaring towards English youth as all the catholics were, when we were groomed to become predators / preyed upon, when I was 14.
LOL, nope. There were no demonic azalea bushes involved. Wallpaper borders, yes, but that was a separate episode.
If you want the whole tortured tale (as I related it to the deacon at our parish when I needed advice on what to do), email me at johnpaulsteve@gmail.com. I don’t want to share more here, because I think it would be uncharitable to expose more details publicly. The whole years-long experience is something I’m still trying to process, but I don’t way to be unfair to my neighbor. I think I’ve already been too gossipy and flippant, both here and elsewhere. OTOH…it *was* a REALLY weird experience.