Centaurus A. A galaxy with orange and dark red dust lanes comprising a center column and a faint shell of blue along its outskirts. Twisted magnetic fields distort the center column of the galaxy. NASA
“The concept of surveillance is ingrained in our beings. God was the original surveillance camera.” Hasan M. Elahi
I appreciate your understanding of my mother’s illness this weekend. She has bilateral viral pneumonia caused by Influenza Strain 4. But she is (as she says) “One tough old bird” and is successfully fighting this off. It is dangerous, especially for the elderly, since antibiotics are ineffective. She is doing better, and I am less worried at this point.
In the meantime, I was sipping my coffee last week and listening to a local talk show host who makes me laugh while presenting the news. I was startled when he started talking about Covenant Eyes (CE) and how churches use this as a means of control. His is not a Christian talk show. I had planned on discussing this as part of a post on Gracepoint Church. Instead, I will save that for Wednesday and discuss CE now. I assume it will cause some discussion. 🙂
Let me make something clear. Not only do I write about folks who have been abused in churches, but I also point out the means of abuse in churches. For example, I have written extensively on the abuse of membership contracts, known as covenants.
What is Covenant Eyes?
Their website opens with this statement:
Struggling to quit watching porn? YOU’RE NOT ALONE
Join over 1.5 million people who’ve used Covenant Eyes to experience victory over porn.
How does it work? According to the website:
With Covenant Eyes, you choose someone you know and trust to walk with you as your ally and hold you accountable for your online behavior.
The Covenant Eyes app tracks activity on your devices. The Victory app shares your activity feed right to your ally’s phone.
You’ll celebrate victories together and have honest and caring conversations about your successes, setbacks, and triggers. With the Victory app, your ally will always have your back, and together, you’ll discover the freedom of living porn-free.
The local talk show host said something to the effect of:
If someone wishes to use this and is not coereced into doing so, that’s up to them. Unfortunately, that’s not how it has been working out recently.
Are some churches using it to spy on their members?
Yes, and I will discuss a specific instance on this on Wednesday. That church has other control problems, but this is one means that they use to combat a specific sin. The Christian Post wrote Covenant Eyes acknowledges privacy concerns, warns churches not to use software for ‘spying.’
They quoted from the original source at Wired, which posted The Ungodly Surveillance of Anti-Porn ‘Shameware’ Apps.
I guess that they first heard about this from a Christianity Today article: At Gracepoint Ministries, ‘Whole-Life Discipleship’ Took Its Toll, which I will write more about on Wednesday. It’s a case study in over-the-top control.
According to the Wired post:
When Grant Hao-Wei Lin came out to a Gracepoint church leader during their weekly one-on-one session, he was surprised to learn that he wasn’t going to be kicked out. According to his church leader, Hao-Wei Lin says, God still loved him in spite of his “struggle with same-sex attraction.”
But Gracepoint did not leave the matter in God’s hands alone. At their next one-on-one the following week, Hao-Wei Lin says the church leader asked him to install an app called Covenant Eyes on his phone. The app is explicitly marketed as anti-pornography software, but according to Hao-Wei Lin, his church leader told him it would help “control all of his urges.”
…The omniscience of Covenant Eyes soon weighed heavily on Hao-Wei Lin, who has since left Gracepoint. Within a month of installing the app, he started receiving accusatory emails from his church leader referencing things he had viewed online. “Anything you need to tell me?” reads one email Hao-Wei Lin shared with WIRED. Attached was a report from Covenant Eyes that detailed every single piece of digital content Hao-Wei Lin had consumed the prior week.
The church leader zeroed in on a single piece of content that Covenant Eyes had flagged as “Mature”: Hao-Wei Lin had searched “#Gay” on a website called Statigr.am, and the app had flagged it.
Even textbooks could be called into question.
For example, in Covenant Eyes reports that Hao-Wei Lin shared with WIRED, his online psychiatry textbook was rated “Highly Mature,” the most severe category of content reserved for “anonymizers, nudity, erotica, and pornography.”
Such surveillance, when misused, can be dangerous.
The Christian Post spoke with CE’s spokesperson Dan Armstrong who said:
“spying on people is damaging and counterproductive.”
He then said:
Our usage policy explicitly prohibits using Covenant Eyes to monitor someone without their authorization,” said Armstrong. “We do not allow spouses to use Covenant Eyes to spy on one another or employers to secretly monitor employees.”
Armstrong said the company turns away parole officers who want to use Covenant Eyes’ software to “secretly monitor employees.”
Contrary to the app’s mission, Armstrong said church leaders shouldn’t be using the technology to spy on their congregants. Instead, he said, congregants and others should decide of their own free will to establish accountability relationships among their friends and peers.
Gracepoint is backing away from reports, but you know how that goes.
Gracepoint is backing away from reports that they use this app to spy on people. According to CP;
In response to the article, Gracepoint released a statement clarifying that “only those that volunteer to serve as staff members are expected to have some sort of accountability software or arrangement.”
You may be inclined to accept this statement with a jaundiced eye when we discuss this group’s alleged incredibly disturbing, controlling tactics on Wednesday. For example, Wired quotes former staff members who said
All five former Gracepoint congregants who spoke to WIRED said a church leader was their accountability partner.)
The Gracepoint statement continued:
“To provide some context, the fact is that among many Christians, the use of internet filtering or accountability software is often considered a good thing, with accountability software avoiding some of the clunky features of filtering software. We are open to better ways to accomplish safeguards our staff members desire and we’re hoping to find/implement such technologies.”
Google is concerned and has removed CE and another app, Accountable2You, from the Google Play Store.
After being contacted by WIRED, Google suspended the Covenant Eyes and Accountable2You apps from the Google Play store.
“Google Play permits the use of the Accessibility API for a wide range of applications,” Google spokesperson Danielle Cohen said in a statement to WIRED. “However, only services that are designed to help people with disabilities access their device or otherwise overcome challenges stemming from their disabilities are eligible to declare that they are accessibility tools.”
Both apps are still available to download in the Apple Store.
Ben Lawrence, the CEO of Accoutnable2You, pushed back against the Google Play Store removal.
“To function in our mission of providing accountability for the device owner, we use the AccessibilityServices API as allowed for by Google,” Lawrence said in a statement. “The AccessibilityServices API can be used for many different things aside from helping people with disabilities. We have been listed on the Play Store for many years and have fully complied with all requirements and met all the regulations regarding Google’s User Data policies, including their upcoming policy changes.”
Did you know there is a Coalition Against Stalkerware?
Here is their website.
Stalkerware refers to tools – software programs, apps and devices – that enable someone to secretly spy on another person’s private life via their mobile device. The abuser can remotely monitor the whole device including web searches, geolocation, text messages, photos, voice calls and much more. Such programs are easy to buy and install. They run hidden in the background, without the affected person knowing or giving their consent. Regardless of stalkerware’s availability, the abuser is accountable for using it as a tool and hence for committing this crime.
The issue of stalkerware
Stalkerware is an example of how technology may facilitate abuse such as partner surveillance, gender-based and domestic violence, harassment and more. In recent years, the problem of stalkerware has been on the rise globally. Non-profit organizations report a growing number of survivors are seeking help with stalkerware, and cybersecurity companies are detecting a consistent increase in these harmful apps.
Where does this leave us?
By now, you get the idea, and we will discuss it later this week. Here are some thoughts.
- Pornography is a problem for some, but why is it singled out as the one which churches must conquer? For example, why not install spyware in a corporate trader’s office and monitor him for greed? How about an app that monitors how often one opens the refrigerator to ensure all maintain an average body mass index? What about tracking people’s tax returns to ensure they give their fair share?
- CE and other such apps are great if a person wants to use them. But…what happens if a church asks someone to install it on their phone? Are they free to say “No?” (Doubtful, in many churches.)
- Did you know that some churches are installing facial recognition software to monitor if people are in church? I bet the 9Marx folks are salivating at this opportunity.
- Is the authoritarian church becoming the incarnation of Skynet?
A final story from Wired.
Hao-Wei Lin has since moved on from Gracepoint but is still processing the trauma he feels the church has caused him. I met him earlier this month at his thesis exhibition at Parsons School of Design in New York City, where he is about to get his Master of Fine Arts in photography. He tells me that it was only after he went back to school that he felt he was in a safe enough space to start processing what he went through at Gracepoint.
Hao-Wei Lin’s photography was somber, but not without humor. One was of a 3D rendering of a room where he says he and other members of Gracepoint would meet after their Sunday service. A solitary figure is hunched over praying, his head resting in the seat of his plastic chair. As I look at the photo, Hao-Wei Lin tells me he wants the viewer to feel like they are a surveillance camera perched in the top corner of the room. The name of his work: “Covenant Eyes.”
Look at how well CE worked for Josh Duggar:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10268847/Josh-Duggars-work-computer-software-bypassed-porn-monitoring-service-court-hears.html
Accountability, software or otherwise, cannot produce growth, maturity, or wisdom.
“Covenant Eyes” … Good Lord! What next?! This is not an accountability issue, this is a control issue. Reminds me of New Calvinism’s use of weekly “LifeGroups” that members are required to attend and where group leaders keep a close eye on potential dissenters concerned about the church’s belief and practice and pastor’s sermon content. Such folks end up being disciplined when the group leader squeals on them. Pastors who cannot lead by the Holy Spirit keep their congregations under their thumb by manipulation, intimidation and domination. And the beat goes on …
Oh, so the way to get away with watching porn in the church is to become the ally of someone who has a problem with it and watch it through the CE app. Very sneaky!
This just about sums it up…..
Holy chit! (as Cheech Marin would say)
This stuff is straight outta’ Orwell’s 1984!
Muff Potter,
Christofascism.
I was going to say that Covenant Eyes worked REAL well for Josh Duggar, because it didn’t, but Ken got there first. The Covenant Eyes people just assume that people aren’t going to set up a dual boot system on their PC to evade detection, which is essentially what Josh did.
I am, however, very disturbed that a church got its hands on what one of its attendees was doing. It sounds like the church leader got the subject of the article to make him his accountability partner. That’s a great trick, have a church leader spy on their families via “accountability software.”
As for the whining from the Accountable2You CEO, I have this to say: “Dude, you got busted. You put this under accessibility software and this is NOT what Google intends for accessibility software to be. You should be ashamed that you bent and broke Google’s TOS.”
Oh, and I got a blast from the past when I saw a mention of “Net Nanny.” Back in the later 1990s, a whole list of people, including Yours Truly, ended up on a special Net Nanny list for members of Scientology who were told to use the software. We were that dangerous. Over a quarter century later and I’m just boggled.
Muff Potter,
More and more of the watchbloggers’ posts seem to point in the direction of christofascism.
It’s as if now all roads lead to christofascism… the new World Order.
Who’s watching the watchmen? If I were in a church that desired to implement CE I would say loudly and clearly at the next member’s business meeting that I would support the pastor and his underling’s plan with one provision, they go first! And their accountability “partner” would be a group of normal men and women selected by the members. After we had monitored them for 2 years we could bring the idea up again for discussion at another member’s meeting.
TBH, I would never do the above because I will never officially be a church member again. But let’s say I was a member, as soon as the staff announced their plan to use CE I would say “see ya!”
https://youtu.be/7dQN4CrSGzs
this Gracepoint thing is, like, the antithesis of Berkeley.
i can’t imagine how it survives. except to prey on lonely college student transplants in the college bubble (as described in yelp reviews).
i see Gracepoint is part of the Send Network, which is part of NAMB / Southern Baptist.
church plants like this are hostile invaders.
Making leaders install CE to accumulate dirt on them was a strategy that a church I was on staff with employed. When I pressed them about who would be monitoring the reports, I was unsurprisingly informed it would be the same narcissist leader who magically produced copies of emails (he was over the email server) to make other people look bad at elder meetings. I employed passive resistance and was never pressured to comply. It helped that I was already using CE personally.
I use CE personally after a long struggle with porn. Pornography is drug-level addictive, and I wish I had had a filter on my computer when I was a teenager at college. My kids will. “Flee from temptation.” Basically every device in the house has a filter, which helps make it much harder for me to just go access porn if I wake up in the middle of the night and can’t sleep or whatever.
There are not many good internet filters out there (I tried several), resulting in me blocking the entire Google domain for a couple of years, after our previous filter proved unable to prevent simple inappropriate image searches.
There’s also the category of “not quite porn” that’s still unhealthy to look up/look at that can be tempting (swimsuit photos, etc.). The CE software takes random screenshots at a rate of 10-20/hr (I think) and uses some sort of algorithm to highlight ones that may show the user looking at something inappropriate. Blurred version of the most suspicious screenshots go out in the weekly report as a “possibly review.”
This has lead to a couple of awkward conversations with my wife, which help me just stay away from that stuff. Accountability and conviction helps.
Duggar’s way of getting around CE can be done, but it involves a lot of deliberate work. For myself, I know that if I set something like that up, I’d delete it within 24-48 hours out of conviction that I was sinning and needed to stop.
I do approve of churches recommending it.
I don’t approve of churches mandating that it be used to report ‘up the chain’ of authority for personal control… and CE themselves does not recommend this.
Keep in mind, though, that these days, ANY organization SHOULD have some sort of content filtering or monitoring software on all company-provided devices. Nobody, secular or Christian, wants to have somebody on staff spending half the day watching porn instead of working, forwarding sexual content via e-mail (potentially creating a harassment or hostile environment case), etc. The same software usually also helps block some of the domains where company devices can acquire malware/viruses.
elastigirl,
Yup…. And, it is the Anti-thesis of the teaching of Christ, IMHO..
As Max likes to keep saying, and I agree, so much of the current American church is just plain ignoring the teaching of Christ..
At least the Roman Catholic concept of “confession” is suppose to be “confidential”…. In a closet that is “anonymous”..
Todd Wilhelm,
Loved your comment. I wonder if John Flomar would ever have bene accountable to you? 🙂
Jonathan,
Thank you for your great comment. You represent a person who did this voluntarily with your wife, and that is what I was driving at. It was voluntary. I also agree with your idea of putting some sort of content filtering on church computers. I also agree that churches would recommend it, heavy emphasis on the word “recommend.”
Stay tuned for the next post to see how accountability can be misused.
Todd Wilhelm,
Liked the video.
That is exactly what I feared.
All human effort to confront these matters will inevitably fail. Isn’t this why we have Scripture? Is the Bible sufficient to guide us through such problems? Isn’t this what the church is supposed to be doing? This smacks of the Pharisees setting up boundaries to avoid sin. Unless people in the church are going to trust each other (in my experience, we don’t for the most part) no program, no app, no accountability group will suffice.
Wow… I knew this existed, but the potential for blackmail (among other things) is endless.
Have we become so accustomed to “routine surveillance” since 9/11 that even the idea of this app isn’t a ginormous red flag?
Lord, have mercy.
Also… this is like a Stalinist-era level of “surveillance,” and if you know anything about Stalin’s relentless persecution of “enemies of the state,” you’ll know how insidious and ugly this is.
Face recognition for church attendees: christofascism. Churches could use face recognition to identify & keep track of registered predators, but would they do that? Never.
It’s all about control of the money units seated in the pews. NDAs, Church Covenants, Face Recognition Software, etc.
“Pornography is a problem for some, but why is it singled out as the one which churches must conquer?”
Because it is the easy target. Because it is easy to convince people that it is bad because it is something done it private, and relatively common, so there is bound to be a reasonable number of pew sitters who struggle with it, or can at least understand the draw. And it is easy to point a finger at pornography and distract from things like child SA or the SA of a church member, while looking like you have the moral high ground sexually. After watching my old church assume that everyone who struggles with Pornography has the potential to slide down the “slippery slope” and become a producer of Child Sexual Assault materials, I’m to the point that if porn is really focused on I wonder what they are trying to distract from. You see it isn’t that uncommon for individuals to privately struggle with (or embrace) porn. But I have slowly come to realize that the majority of men and women want mutual sexual relationships, rather than power over their partner. They aren’t interested in forcing themselves on others. So, part of the focus on pornography is to make it seem like the individual who abuses children or teens or even adults isn’t really all that different from the average person who finds pornography stimulating. It’s common enough to level what should not be leveled.
Caveat: I’ve definitely heard people confess that they struggle with pornography and I’ve heard them testify to the problems it leads to (both Christian and secular). I believe them, and I don’t want to minimize their struggle. I can also see where using something like Covenant Eyes can be helpful in the case of an individual who struggles with that and wants to avoid it. It will help keep honest people honest. It isn’t going to keep someone out of trouble who doesn’t want to change, ie Josh Duggar. And it shouldn’t be used to compare the likes of Josh Duggar to your average person* who struggles with visual temptation. That is just not the same.
*One of the major female complaints coming out of purity culture is the idea that “men are visual, women are relational” is a lie. Women can be just as visually tempted as men, and there are also men whose attraction is more about personality than looks.
If your accountability partner is a married evangelical male, there’s a 50% chance he’s doing porn himself. https://baremarriage.com/2022/07/what-if-your-husbands-a-missionary-or-pastor-and-hes-using-porn/
So just flip a coin to decide if he’s “trusted”. One thing Sheila states (unfortunately with no specific examples) is that many ministries have confidential programs to help porn addicts- including leaders who don’t want to jeopardize their ministry careers.
It seems, Jesus was not talking about *eyes* here …
—
Technological solutions to relational problems – like that’s gonna work!
Considering my brother’s iphone couldn’t tell the difference between him (Dark Brown hair and facial hair), his two elementary aged daughters (one light blond, one brunette), and me (female, blondish/brown, no facial hair)… I don’t think I trust that technology all that much. The four of us may have all inherited my dad’s facial features, but nobody confuses us for quadruplets.
That.
That.
It looks like the whole program of spying on line to ‘help’ someone control their behavior by ‘shaming’ is some kind of ‘substitute’ for MORAL CONSCIENCE . . . .
how can a Christian organization try to override the development of moral conscience in individuals with some program of ‘spying’ on the person and ‘shaming’ the person and even begin to think that this ‘helps’ in the development of ‘self-control’????
There is a pattern of moral development that helps individuals examine their consciences and adjust behavior accordingly, especially in understanding that some activities lead to no-good and therefore must be consciously avoided as a part of the person’s commitment to ‘return to the Lord again’ . . . .
if nothing more, a person’s MORAL CONSCIENCE is the best source of guidance for the person towards what is good and away from what is evil
no human ‘intervention’ that assumes it is a better model than moral conscience, even those interventions well-intended, can replace what is God-given. . . .
look at Josh Duggar’s case: there apparently in his patriarchal upbringing was no attempt to REALLY confront and discipline his behaviors and he disintegrated into the worst kind of pornography we know of . . . thinking he could ‘get away with it’
the substitute for the development of moral conscience in Josh Duggar ended up being a jail cell for years to at least protect his own children from his diseased addiction to child pornography – even his own family wants him ‘excused’ ‘again’
moral conscience keeps us all out of a lot of consequences, unless somehow ‘excuses’ are made to override it and ‘allow’ the person to ‘get away with’ that which is self-destructive and harmful to others
Because “I Have Problem X, so EVERYONT Must Have Problem X!” on the part of the churches’ Lead Pastor/Head Apostles?
Remember “The More Rigid the Righteousness, the greater the Perversion.”
To add a bit of technology insight into this subject. (I normally don’t comment on the subject of a post but here I figure I can add a bit to this in a non partisan way.)
Most businesses of any size dealing with end user Windows or Mac systems have them managed. And some home systems have this as well if they contract with someone like me. This means there is software installed that lets the business configure and “manage” them as needed. You can’t fully manage a computer unless you have access to all of the software on it. Which means browser history.
I tell my clients (home and business users) that the management system I use means I can see everything on the computer. (Not fully but the details of what little I can’t see are hard to describe in a sentence or two.) I tell my clients and many other in my industry do also that:
“I have absolutely no interest in what you do personally and unless management makes a business case for it I will not go looking at things like browser history. That said, I can see it all.”
And on the non managed consumer side of things. Every one of those browser plug ins you install to find you deals and coupons and so on can see EVERYTHING that happens in your browser. Bank logins, love emails via GMail, porn, whatever. Think long and hard before you trust “We find cheap deals” to see everything you do.
And even non “deal finders” have the same level of access. I personally use Ghostery.
Now back to my “do not comment on posts” normal operation.
In my personal case, the pastor stated (paraphrasing multiple comments): “One of our deacons was arrested and pled guilty to something related to P___ (creating and posting Child SA material, but we won’t openly state that). Therefore, we are going to do a series on P___. Because if one member has an issue, probably more than one does. And the issue is watching P___ of any kind, not creating Child SA materials. We think that by impressing upon the congregation how bad P___ is, we will prevent someone else from “sliding down that slippery slope” and creating their own Child SA materials. Oh, and Homosexuality is bad, and so is out of wedlock adult relations. I commend all congregants who saved themselves for marriage! And the elders should make it a priority to visit the former deacon in jail and support him, he’s feeling bad right now! But if your adult child who does not claim to be a Christian moves into their SO’s house, you should abstain from visiting them in their new home until they rectify the situation.”
Now if you are telling me that my former pastor was telling us that HE had his own P___ problem, that would certainly put an interesting spin on things.
Covenant Eyes CE has been around for a long time, and is very popular in Sexual Addiction circles, because it is fairly cheap. But it is absolutely a way for leadership to keep people under their thumb.
Oy vey. Blimey. Uffdah. Good grief. Pas bon.
The odd thing about the Christian fascination with accountability is there is not even one proof text in the Bible which says Christians should be accountable to each other. Not one. That shocked me many years ago when I decided to look for those proof texts. This topic is so much different from other Christian topics where the actual words exist, such as elect or predestined, but interpretations vary.
“Contrary to the app’s mission, Armstrong said church leaders shouldn’t be using the technology to spy on their congregants.”
++++++++++++++
…and my Q-tips box says I shouldn’t use to use to clean ears.
The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in the American church. It’s all about us now.
Part of the New Calvinist movement to restore the gospel that the rest of the church has lost (to them, Gospel = Calvinism). They “invade” through stealth & deception to plant reformed theology with patriarchal authoritarian control to manipulate, intimidate and dominate unfortunate souls which become trapped in their web.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I wondered if Duggar used the same program. What a joke.
“invade”
The entire operation is overreach.
An internet search on “stealth calvinism” yields quite a few results. They have turned it into a real thing.
He did.
If I remember right, Josh Duggar kept his CP stash on a secret partition of his system that blocked Covenant Eyes. To anyone looking at the system, Cov Eyes was working. To Josh with his secret backdoor into the partition, however, …
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!”, remember.
Dominionism is real.
Jonathan,
Install this on both halves of your dual boot with the knowledge of your non-church leadership partner freely chosen by you.
Enough said
Duggar took extraordinary steps to setup his computer to bypass the normal start process so that he could use the computer without being monitored.
It was not the fault of the software. It was the fault of Duggar who was apparently motivated to go to extreme lengths to keep doing what he wanted to do.
When you target a whole denomination (SBC) to change the non-Calvinist belief and practice of millions of Southern Baptists for the last 150 years with reformed theology (without asking them if they wanted to go there!) … then, yes, I would say that is overreach! Stealth and deception are modus operandi of New Calvinists … they got the better of mainline Southern Baptists by cunning, which was not a holy endeavor. Now, they attempt to control every jot and tittle of a believer’s life … replacing the work of the Holy Spirit with method and message contrary to the will of God.
For example:
“Now I am beginning to hear reports of denominations that have traditionally included both Calvinists and non-Calvinists subtly attempting to impose Calvinism by means of new statements of faith or amendments to old statements of faith … it certainly appears to me that whoever wrote that statement knew what they were doing …” (Roger Olson)
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2014/07/beware-of-stealth-calvinism/
= (Southern) Baptist Faith & Message revision in 2000 (Al Mohler was on the revision committee)
I simply don’t trust churches to run our private lives and to police our recovery from addictions, infidelity, and so on.
If I had an addiction problem, I would consider telling my pastor, in order to seek insight, prayer, and moral support. For practical help, though, I would go to a psychiatrist (with a medical degree) or a licensed therapist.
There might be a role for good software (perhaps not Covenant Eyes). As others have stated, its use should be voluntary and confidential, not decreed and evaluated by the church.
christiane,
I’ve been thinking along similar lines, especially your observations about how “shame before others” is sometimes relied on as a substitute for inward motivation toward what is best.
I think we also have to recognize that there are forms of addiction (in biblical language, this might be described by the language of ‘bondage’) that can trap people. Paul seems to describe something like this in his own struggles (perhaps with covetousness, assuming that Romans 7 is at least semi-autobiographical) — he knows and approves what is right, and wants to do that, and yet does not find it in himself to do what he knows is right; instead he finds himself doing what he knows is wrong. In such circumstances, in the interest of limiting the harm to oneself and others, I think voluntary external restraints or constraints, including ‘shame-based’ constraints, can be helpful. They aren’t the cure, but they may be able to palliate the symptoms while one seeks a cure, which will involve change at a deeper level than behavior.
A church’s emphasis on pornography (or, in earlier times, alcohol or gambling) ramps up anxiety in everyone in the pews.
My grandmother had the courage of a lioness, yet she was so terrified of gambling that she would not buy a 10-cent raffle ticket to benefit a charity. She learned this fear at church, not through her own experience or the behavior of family members.
I applaud individuals who humbly and diligently address their own problems.
I do not applaud churches that try to rid the congregation and then the world of things like shorts for women and long hair for men. These leaders and flock are never satisfied that they have cleaned things up. They will always find a new cause and new ways to increase misery instead of relieving it.
All of this is just what happens when the church trades persuasion for power. Time was you did expect the “saved” to act like it, not the lost. So yeah, getting drunk and beating on wifey might get you booted from Baptist membership where I grew up. But no one wanted the church to put a breathalizer on your car.
When we ditched free will, we ditched persuasion. And as to be expected, bad behavior zoomed up. Maybe it was predestined, I don’t know. But now as part of the “cultural mandate” the Calvinists claim they get to clean everyone up.
Well, if they could, that would get us back to Eden, and we all know how free will threw a monkey wrench in the works there.
They cannot have it both ways. Either all this sinning is predestined or it is not. If it is not, then it is a free will choice. In that case, they need to dump the power trip and get back to persuading people.
Converts, not conscripts, should be the goal of the church.
I would not tell my pastor. I do not trust pastor’s either.
Possible to perforate the ear drum accidentally! 🙂
But, um, it was all planted evidence, right? To make him look bad?
(sarc)
And herein lies the problem I have with CE. While some individuals may find such a program helpful in addressing their addiction, it does nothing to cure the deeper heart problem. Also gives the ‘accountability’ partner a false sense that the individual is making progress when all they’re really not facing the deeper issues.
Samuel Conner,
Yes. I can see your point.
Of course, Duggar needs to be imprisoned now for the SAFETY of his children, if nothing more, and this involves ‘punishment’ . . . . but he’s been ‘caught’ in trouble before and instead of changing towards the good, each subsequent vile activity got worse and worse, so the ‘shame’ of being caught did NOTHING to alter his course that I believe was set up by his patriarchal up-bringing that ‘permitted’ by excusing when instead, Duggar needed for his family to ‘hold him accountable’ instead of fawning over ‘precious Josh’ as they referred to him . . .
His tragedy is multiplied likely in many homes where males act in ways disrespectful of women as human persons. The ‘pattern’ of lording it over women was set in ancient days and it is NOT been good for men OR women, has it???
Yes. ‘Interventions’ when someone is out of control ARE necessary.
But my point is that, in the Christian world, holding someone ‘accountable’ means that they are called to come to the Cross and seek the outpouring of a spirit of repentance
especially for those things we have done or not done that caused suffering for others;
in this ‘process’ of examining our moral consciences, we are ‘alone with God’ and answer to Him, in a way that helps us to re-commit to follow Him, to return to Him again, and avoid the ways that lead to doing evil . . .
I would object only to the total replacement of Christian training of ‘moral conscience’ by some types of ‘excusing’ that which should never be excused, as was done in the case of Josh Duggar, who, was not served well by his extreme patriarchal family’s ways.
Interventions, yes. Done out of love and yes, ‘tough’ love at times if need be, but love never-the-less that follows the ways of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, not some ‘extreme’ patriarchal worship of ‘male’ over ‘female’. There are other examples, yes.
Thanks for your comment which makes me think in a more expanded way, in a wider context, which helps me, yes.
numo,
numo,
Isn’t that what fundagelicalism is all about?
An absolute dictatorship allegedly under the auspices of Jesus?
FreshGrace,
I can see the wisdom of your comment.
sometimes it is NOT ‘helpful’ to intervene to the point of taking over responsibility for decisions that the individual needs to make for themselves in order to change for the better
in the old days of ‘counseling’ theories, the term employed was ‘the locus of evaluation’ . . . whether the person was controlled by external decision-makers OR whether the person faced the problem directly, took responsibility for it, stopped blaming ‘others’, and decided (with help, surely if need be) to accept what needed to be changed for the better and to personally take the steps needed to go forward in a good direction
in short, does a person’s ‘locus of evaluation’ reside externally, controlling him/her from outside
OR
does a person’s ‘locus of evaluation’ reside internally, as in the place of the moral conscience of a person where they meet alone with God, answerable only to God, for behaviors and the seeking of help to change for the better – to find again ‘the Good Way’
(?)
If it IS ‘a heart problem’, I would think only God would be the One to understand and help with it and that a person’s formed ‘moral conscience’ is the best PLACE where an individual can work out with God’s guidance how to go forward
that is a big difference from OTHER PEOPLE pointing the finger, because the internal changes going on in confronting one’s moral conscience and obeying it involve a God-given ‘awareness’ WITHIN the person
For some, ‘moral conscience’ has never formed properly,
and here there IS need for more ‘external’ controls to PROTECT others and the individual from himself . . . as in the case of Josh Duggar, a victim of extreme patriarchy himself. . .
To be handed off to an even more absolute dictator Jesus at the Second Coming?
(By Pastor/Apostles who KNOW they’ll be the ones sitting at His Right and Left Hand.)
According to Slacktivist, Left Behind: Volume 12 ends with the two Author Self-Inserts walking away from the Judgment Seat of Christ (either on the Mount of Olives or Megiddo/Jezreel Valley) with their Crowns of Glory. One ASI comments to the the other “Now we can REALLY have a CHRISTIAN Nation.”
According to Nyssa the Hobbit, in Left Behind: Volume 13 (set during the post-Second Coming Millenium), the Resurrected Saved (including both ASI’s as well as the others with the truly awful ethnic names) do just that. As God’s Immortal Chosen, they throw their Anointed weight around HARD over all those Mortal Heathens who managed to survive the Tribulation and Armageddon. God’s Special Enforcers. “WE SHALL RULE WITH HIM WITH A ROD OF IRON!”
Well,it seems to me that anyone could accomplish this.
Friend,
I totally agree with your comment. Churches are unprepared to deal with addiction.
Absolutely. They’ll swear every way to Wednesday it isn’t so. But their actions tell us all we need to know.
Well Tom , have you ever considered finding a pastor that you can trust? Their hard to find but they are out there. My pastor and I have become good friends over time. We often disagree on theological beliefs ( which makes for a better relationship I think) but I still love the guy. He helped me through a very difficult divorce and has always been there for me. I have been a sounding board for him and he tells me that I have encouraged him during some difficult trials. I am a better person because of having him in my life. It is easy to be cynical toward pastors these days, there are plenty of goofballs and worse out there but keep searching till you find one.
This is not the only problem with the christian accountability model, but it is one of the bigger problems with it. There is no Biblical support for this model. There are many reasons to reject it
Umm… Galatians 6:2, “Bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.” The preceding verse speaks to that as well.
Have been trying not to comment, reading interesting points from both sides.
That verse is not about accountability. Accountability requires keeping an account of wrong doing and administering appropriate punishment. There are many “one another” verses in the Bible that emphasize encouragement, exhortation, rebuke, etc., but not one verse anywhere tells Christians to be accountable to other Christians. Accountability is great for dealing with lawbreakers, but it has no place in Christian fellowship. And it offers no hope for those who want freedom from sin. It only offers bondage and despair.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I agree, Ken. When I bear another’s burdens, I comfort the person, listen, hold them close, share their sadness and sometimes, yes, their pain and guilt. Through love, and ideally by living out a good example, we can give people hope and inspire them to do better. We can point out the good moments, helping them to see and build on small victories and moments of joy.
But we cannot reach inside and change them. We cannot be there every minute, batting away their every thought and temptation. Coercing our dear ones will not strengthen them. Shaming and intrusive monitoring might well lead them to greater despair and secrecy.
(The above is about ordinary folk, not sociopaths. Sigh.)
When I read WW comments, I understand I am not the only reader who grew up in a generations-old cult.
I have relationships with different degrees of accountability. Not one is about keeping a record of wrongs and administering punishment. Every one, from spouse to children to loving community to work management, is about the kind of strength and integrity that come out of openness, sometimes confession, and encouragement. Iron sharpens iron. This is not the only kind of relationship, but only God gets to be God. Natural consequences are effective. Relationships wax and wane and roles change. Knowing how to flee creepy entanglements as described above is not something I ever learned at church.
I am a divorced man. I choose to not view porn for many reasons, the primary ones being that I don’t want to risk my kids seeing it, and I don’t want to risk contributing to the experience of someone who might have been trafficked into porn.
Having said that, our church is big on the whole “accountability” thing. We have a group called “Pure Desire.”
The problem is that they are teaching the entire congregation that “7 out of 10 men have a porn addiction.” That may or may not be true; if it is, that still means that 3 out of 10 men DON’T have a porn addiction.
Yet I have no defense against Steve or Suzy Churchmember who see me as single and without a mate, and think to themselves, “He must have a porn problem.” If I tell people that I don’t, then I get accused of denial or lying.
The issue with the whole Covenant Eyes thing is that it can also be used against people like me, if the vast majority are convinced that a single male can’t help but have a problem, and there is simply no way that he would be able to “fight his urges and have self-discipline.” Well guess what – I can, and I do.
It’s like a previous poster said – ONE person might have an issue with something, therefore they project and assume that because they did, everyone else will, too.
Ted,
Ted, I honestly don’t think that has anything to do with “accountability.” It’s about compassion and caring for others, not confessing and spying and slamming people with guilt and shame.
Though I really think a big part of the overall problem being addressed here is that evangelical churches don’t allow – won’t allow – for emotional maturity in congregants. In other kinds of churches (liturgical, in my own experience) people are *expected* to mature emotionally. That just isn’t countenanced in evangelicalism, for the most part.
christiane,
Well, here’s the thing. What you’re talking about requires emotional maturity. That seems to be something that most evangelical churches don’t want their congregants to have. I mean, God forbid that folks be allowed to think for themselves and take action accordingly!
Some might objects to this comment, but all I can say is that I’ve seen this play out in my own life. Just as totally normal questions are too all frequently understood as “rebellion against authority.”
Nobody should *ever* have this kind of control over the lives of others. It’s wrong.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
You’re talking about control over the lives of others. That’s just plain wrong, no matter what someone believes or doesn’t believe. While I agree that it leads to despair, there are people everywhere who would exploit any role that allowed them to have power over other people.
The church isn’t called to be an authoritarian surveillance state.
Most of the time, when church people talk about accountability they don’t mean accountability. They mean something else. But some do mean accountability, and not in a good way.
Here are some pitfalls with accountability:
Useless against the flesh. Colossians 2:20-23
Results in an impossible life of sin management. The Pharisees excelled in accountability but failed to obtain righteousness. How much accountability would be good enough?
Leads to a “bait and switch” form of Christianity. People are lured into the church with love and grace, and then pounded with performance expectations after they are in. Jesus always explained expectations up front and never moved the goalposts. He never tricked people into the kingdom.
Replaces one kind of sin with another. For example, if the fear of embarrassment is the motivation for better behavior, then the replacement sin is pride.
Creates a condition or attitude where there is a human mediator between man and God.
Focuses the attention on outward behavior rather than core beliefs and motivations.
Focuses our attention on our flesh, which is exactly the wrong result. Romans 8:6-8
We become man-pleasers more than God-pleasers.
It can result in us “falling from grace” and back into performance under the law.
This should be obvious, but so many churches seem to believe otherwise.
I can agree with Ken F, Friend, and Numo, if we’re talking about the difference between authoritarianism and the kind of bearing of one another’s burdens in Galatians 6. Both can be seen as forms of accountability. It comes down to a matter of definitions.
One of the biggest problems I had with the church government changeover at First Baptist was the concentration of authority in the newly-formed elder board–three men instead of the brainstorming and accountability (in the good sense) of the earlier diaconate and church council boards, consisting of men and women. I see the new government as a lessening of accountability, which I believe had been a good thing in the previous boards, and with no coercion. Again, a matter of definitions.
Exactly. Eons ago, when Promise Keepers was a big deal in my area, men’s accountability groups came on the scene. Men gathered weekly to confess their sins and hold each other accountable. They would weep and share their darkest secrets, go back out and commit those secrets again, then return to the next weekly meeting to do it all over again. I suppose there were some real-deal success stories, but many of the men I knew didn’t stick with the accountability structure in place. One such group held an event at a local Christian college. The leader, a pastor/missionary, and his wife spoke about how PK had saved their marriage. A couple of years later, they were divorced and he was out of the ministry.
Christian, Jesus is your advocate. He is as close as a prayer. He will help you in your time of need.
One who is skilled at playing ‘spin the Bible’ can manufacture steel i-beams of support for it.
The problem with mixing the two concepts is it ruins both. We need fellowship without fear of shame and punishment. Accountability turns fellowship into abusive legalism. Likewise, we need authentic accountability for activity that is illegal, unethical, abusive, etc., so that wrongdoers can be punished (held accountable) appropriately. When the two are mixed it ends up with criminal activity going unreported and unpunished because it was only “an organic moment.” It ends up with people who should never again be pastors getting standing ovations after their “season” of recovery.
Christians should quit using the word accountability in the wrong context. They should use it the way most of the rest of the world uses it. It is not a distinction without a difference. It is a huge difference
Because it sounds so right. But it is oh so wrong
Ted,
What kind of accountabiity was happening before the change? I am genuinely struggling to imagine this.
I’ve gone to church my whole life, and never attended one that set out to intervene in my behavior or family life. Even when I have asked for help, I have received prayerful, empathetic support, not criticism and goals that the church was going to check or enforce. If I wanted follow-up from the church, I would seek it.
numo,
Numo,
I would look at the ‘evangelical’ community closely and ask which among them KNOWS and accepts the teachings of Christ in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican in the temple . . .
I would want to know WHO they patterned their faith communities after:
the Pharisee who was ‘self-righteous’ and told God that he was glad he was not like ‘that other sinner’, and who listed his ‘credentials’ before God as ‘proof’ of his superiority
OR
the Publican –
the one who KNEW he was ‘a sinner’ in need of God’s mercy, and came to ask God for that mercy?
There are MANY evangelical people who pattern after the Pharisee, yes;
but there are also many who see that the REAL SINNER’S PRAYER is what the Publican said, this:
“Have mercy on me, a sinner”
The difference?
it’s profound in how God Himself is said to have ‘justified’ the Publican but NOT the Pharisee
Maybe the level of emotional maturity you speak of is simply this:
the ‘insight’ that a person needs to realize that they are ‘wounded’ and in need of mercy in their brokenness, and incapable of ‘self-righteousness’ and being judgmental or engaging in ‘the pointing of the finger’ . . . .
Does the REAL sinner’s prayer require a Christian to ask God for His mercy and the admit that he IS ‘a sinner’ in need of God’s salvation???
is that the ’emotional maturity’ you speak of? Or is it something that involves more that this?
Ted,
TED,
I’ve always seen that quote as meaning to help others when they are over-burdened with troubles . . . I think former President Jimmy Carter saw that also in the verse, and he used his ‘retirement’ years to work for better housing LITERALLY by picking up hammer and nail and setting an example for other Christian people.
There is an enormous difference for caring for ‘the other’ for the sake of the other,
and
involving oneself in someone else’s business to gain control over them for your own ego . . .
the former will use ‘the fruit of the Holy Spirit’ in helping the over-burdened person
the latter, well . . . I think we know the ‘cult control playbook’ by now
the difference could not be greater . . .
One blogger (can’t remember which one) related that during his “men’s accountablilty fad” phase, his “accountability partner” always opened with how many times he’d masturbated since the last time they’d crossed paths. TMI!
Just look at the Great White Throne Judgment scene from Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”, where God shows the guy every second of his life, every single sin of those every single seconds, before casting him into Eternal Hell. And even ONE sin would be enough.
Back during Watergate and the Nixon Tapes scandal, none other than Billy Graham used that image how “God has his tapes running all the time, recording EVERYTHING you’ve ever done.”
In this case, 24/7/365 Surveillance of the pew peons is just being Conformed to the Image of God. God just Holds the Biggest Whip, and everything flows downhill.
Reminds me of one therapist I had back in the late Eighties who somehow KNEW I was a closet gay; everything I told him or did to tell him I was straight was dismissed as denial, lying, or something a homo would say to convince the therapist he was really straight. Had to switch therapists.
“What a Long, Strange Trip it’s Been…”
Because most Christians and Christian Organizations are stuck at the Toddler level of “development of moral conscience”:
AVOID PUNISHMENT AND NOTHING MORE.
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Folks, it appears we’re using different definitions. I’ll need to find a new word for what I’m talking about.
Church government should be above-board, all agenda (and motives, we hope) on the table, and should include a wide range of advisors to the pastor.
Formerly at First Baptist, we had an 8-member diaconate (4 men, 4 women), and a church council consisting of department heads (children’s ministry, adult ed, treasurer, missions, outreach, maintenance, etc, including a member of the diaconate. These boards each would meet with the pastor monthly, share info, concerns, pray and make decisions.
The shrinking of this network into a 3-person or 4-person all-male revue has the potential for disaster. It was deemed more efficient, more streamlined, more “biblical” (1 Timothy 3) but dammit, as I said in the preliminary meetings, men behave better when women are on the board. And it ain’t necessarily more biblical if you read all of Galatians, not only the part where Paul confronts Peter to his face for legalism and for what’s “biblical.”
I will say that so far so good, that First Baptist still has some of the same good people in charge—although fewer of them, and none of them women. They no longer have the checks and balances (what I used to call “accountability;” and I’ll need a different word now), only their own interpretation of the by-laws—and of scripture, which they hold as there only real authority. Reminder: “their own interpretation” of scripture can be key here.
By accountability I was never talking about a coercive, authoritarian, surveillant, 1984-style autocracy. Quite the reverse. It’s what I was trying to prevent, and I fear that First Baptist has lost much of that kind of “accountability” (or checks and balances, or whatever I will now have to call it) in favor of a flawed, potentially disastrous autocracy.
And I would never spill my guts to Promise Keepers neither. Maybe a trusted friend. And that’s what I’m talking about, not rules and legalism.
I have read 1984 several times, taken it very seriously, even held Headless Unicorn Guy’s feet to the fire about it: “No, comrade, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia, not with Eurasia…”
Stalin’s regime was the RL inspiration for George Orwell’s 1984.
All he did was take RL 1948 Russia and switch the setting to a future England.
The same Weaponized SCRIPTURE that’s quoted Chapter-and-Verse to Justify this same crap?
“If you question what I say or do
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HEADLESS, there is a ‘new’ Putin-era level of ‘surveillance’ and the punishment for Putin’s dis-favor is swift and deadly:
a lot of oligarchs have ‘fallen out of windows’ lately or ‘committed suicide’ under ‘strange circumstances’
just enough ‘openness’ in the killings of these men to let the Russians know to fear upsetting Putin in any way . . . apparently, ‘disloyalty’ runs deep as a value in Putin AND Trump’s world
Deadly Retribution for the ‘crime of disloyalty’ to ‘Dear Leader’:
a universal marker of authoritarian rule, you bet
That’s the same problem I found when I originally investigated this. Here are some synonyms for “hold accountable.” Which one best describes the type of Christian relationship you are thinking about?
hold responsible
blame
accuse
censure
impugn
impute
attribute guilt
point the finger
assign guilt to
fault
inculpate
incriminate
finger
lay the blame on
indict
charge
impeach
implicate
assign fault to
hold liable
assign liability to
place the blame on
condemn
denounce
allege
declare guilty
accuse of
rap
frame
reproach
From https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/hold_accountable.html
Most decent Christians don’t, which is why we should not be using that word to describe fellowship, encouragement, exhortation, and rebuke. All those words focus on restoration while accountability focuses on retribution. Abusive leaders love using that word because it allows them to hold the pew-peons accountable through retribution while excusing the real abusers. I might be an outlier, but I feel strongly about the use of that word.
Around 30 years ago I was a big fan of PK and accountability. So much so that I eventually decided to find all the good proof texts for it. That is when the scales started falling from my eyes. I came up completely empty. All the passages in the Bible relating to accountability say we are accountable to God. There is zero scriptural support for Christians being accountable to one another. I felt scammed.
On the other hand, there are plenty of Scriptures indicating that Biblical “accountability” begins by taking responsibility for one’s own actions and making a choice to depend on God and His Holy Spirit to help you live righteously. Inserting others to accomplish that objective slights the power of God in a believer’s life, IMO. Sure we are to share burdens with one another, pray for and with one another, fellowship with one another … but turning over our one-on-one responsibility and accountability before God distorts the personal relationship we are called to have with the Creator of the universe.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
For the life of me, I still cannot figure out why fundagelicals are so obsessed with human sexuality.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
accountability
“which is why we should not be using that word to describe fellowship, encouragement, exhortation, and rebuke. All those words focus on restoration while accountability focuses on retribution.”
++++++++++++++++++
although, i’ve observed astoundingly confoundingly life-destroying things done to people by christians who were acting on the words “care for you”, “love”, and “serve you”.
i think the concept of God and self-entitlement (a narcissistic trait) gives people license to do what they want to do, regardless of what deceptive words they use to package it with.
.
.
does religion (even the one with Jesus as its namesake) nurture narcissism? somehow manifest it?
(in addition to attracting it?)
Muff Potter,
the most accessible tool for control, for certifiable control freaks?
(controlling others, imposing control on oneself, for reasons of OCD,… for some derived pleasure?)
Ken F (aka Tweed),
promise keepers…. “I felt scammed.”
++++++++++++
a moneymaker and a whole movement to indulge in control freakery?
are there any ‘programs’ in christian culture that don’t activate the more base and sickly elements of human nature?
it’s the weirdest thing, in observing my religion
Yes. There are many words improperly used in christianity. It requires a different dictionary where all the normal words mean something else.
“Transmogrify” is the perfect word for this
Ken F (aka Tweed),
great word! nice and science fictiony… like that one where jeff goldblum turns into a fly…
Actually more like Calvin & Hobbes and The Transmogrifier.
“Maybe we could transmogrify Susie into a bowl of chowder…”
That’s where I first saw it. I thought it was a fake word until I once used it, misspelled it, and spell-checker suggested the correct spelling.
christiane,
Good thoughts as always, christiane! 🙂
Ted,
Ted, in the ELCA, we have a church council – every member is elected by the congregation. Members cover general concerns, but each person is responsible for a specific are: music, stewardship, etc. Decisions (big ones and small) are run by the congregation before changes are made.
It’s the exact opposite of a “top down” sch ER me. And church council members are ordinary laypeople.
This is flawed, like all other systems of governance, but it has *nothing* to do with the kinds of control exerted in most evangelical churches.
Myself, I think it’s a far healthier approach.
numo,
Err… scheme. Imhad to reset my keyboard and it’s been doing some awfully weird things…
elastigirl,
And racist + misogynistic. I’m serious. There’s a *lot* out there about PK that’s honest, and very, very damning.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yes, I’m aware. But it’s interesting to see how similar kinds of surveillance have become common in this country, with almost nobody raising any objections.
Not talking about folks like Giy Behind the Curtain or others who do the work he’s doing.
I never heard of wordhippo.
But, to answer the question, none of those describe what I mean, with the possible exception of the first, to hold responsible. And please don’t ruin that word for me. It can simply mean “stick to the agenda” or “abide by the rules.” Or “Live by the Golden Rule.”
Incidentally, the word “conservative” has become destroyed in recent generations too. But Dee won’t let us go there.
And as for “transmogrify,” I’m with HUG—this should only be used in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon. Poor Susie.
This is why I think it is such a terrible word to use for describing how Christians should relate to one another. If you want to use it, you should think about the potential harm it causes, especially among people who have not gotten used to the “Christian” meaning of the word, or people who have been abused in the name of accountability. Even the context of “sticking to the rules” or “abiding by the agenda” puts the emphasis on performance rather than relationship. It makes the rules and the agenda seem more important than the needs of the person. I believe we can do much better than that.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ken, this is going nowhere fast. Please don’t misrepresent me.
Can you help me understand how I misrepresented you? What specifically concerns you about my comments? How can I make amends?
Headless, so that is how the neo-Cals justify their abuses of the ‘sheep’? God have mercy!
Actually, Headless, there IS a way of speaking about everything flowing downhill that I do buy into, this:
“God descends to the humble as waters flow down from the hills into the valleys. – St. Tikhon of Voronezh.”
HEADLESS,
I suspect the good saint was thinking about ‘Mercy’ and ‘Grace’ rather than abuse from a neo-Cal ‘god of wrath’
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ken, I think you’ve become hung up on one word, as if a trigger. And I do know something of triggers, so I’ll give you that. But if you read what I’ve said in context, you may find that we’re probably in agreement here, in search of the correct labels. That’s about it. I’ll be more mindful of the “A” word from now on.
That’s a pretty inflammatory comment. It misdirects the conversation from what is wrong about the word to what is wrong about me. I hate it when that happens. It’s true that I am bothered by it, mostly because I have seen it cause so much harm to so many people, and because abusive Christians use it to abuse others while escaping true accountability. What surprises me most about the word is how so many Christians fiercely defend it even though there is zero biblical support for it. It seems to have become an idol for many. I don’t understand why that is.
When you look up synonyms for accountable/accountability you find they have mainly negative/guilty connotations.
That’s the problem, isn’t it? If somebody is embezzling public funds, the public deserves accountability. That’s very different from having one church member demand accountability of another church member, regarding private behavior that does not imperil the congregation.
“Be careful, Little Eyes, what you See;
Be Careful, Little Eyes, what you See;
For CovEyes is Above,
NOT looking down in Love;
Be careful, Little Eyes, what you See…”
— (Ain’t sleep deprivation wonderful?)
“Hold up your phones to pledge and show us your bank account numbers! Our security cameras are good enough that We’ll Know Who You Are!”
— REVEREND “Grinning Ed” Young (of Seven Day Sex Challenge fame)
Private Confession and use of a “closet” Confessional was adopted in the first place to ensure confidentiality and head off any opportunity for gossip. A lot of church traditions and customs had a practical reason at the time and place they originated.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
And when it comes to Accountabilty, a confidential Private Confession beats blurting out to your Accountability Partner/Accountability Group/Party Commissar/Everybody how many times you wanked off since the last time you saw them. (Actual Accountability story from either or both Christian Monist and Wondering Eagle, i.e. WTF? TMI!)
My understanding is in the very early church people stood up and publicly confessed their sins in the congregation, but cooler heads eventually won and the confessions became private.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
something about participating in the finger pointing at a sinner doesn’t fit well in ‘C’ (or little ‘c’) catholicism,
as we Catholics are ‘mea culpa’ oriented – it’s a way of keeping us humbled and dealing personally with our own mess
‘shaming’ doesn’t have the same place in Catholicism as it has among them what is of a different persuasion,
as in the hymn ‘we will know we are Christians by our love’ and it words about connecting with ‘each man’s dignity’ rather than looking ‘at that other sinner’
a different perspective, yes
good in many ways, but there are times when . . . . . and here it gets into ethics and preventing potential harm to others, very murky territory is the seal of the confessional in certain circumstances, yes
Sorry but as with any other religious group, your mileage may vary.
My lived experience is the RC or even the “rc” church is no better than any other Christian strain.
Different, sure, but not better.
RC’s can shame with the best of them.
BINGO!
The two are completely different.
If the ‘church’ worried half as much about Mrs. Johnson not being able to cover up a black eye with extra eye-shadow, as it does about Stan and Bill beating-off to what ever, they’d finally be getting somewhere.
I can see the reasonableness of two people sharing access to one another’s browser history. This seems to me to be a fair fulfilment of the instruction to “confess your sins to one another”; and since it’s mutual, it’s much less likely to descend into contemptuous micro-management.
I’ve been involved with two particular mentoring relationships in which there was a sharp power imbalance. There are definite similarities with the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment. Not everyone (contrary to the original experimenter’s claims) does become a tyrant when given power over another person, but some people do, and their behaviour escalates rapidly.
I attended Parkside Church near Cleveland (Alistair Begg’s fortress of holier-than-thou isolationism) and Christ Community Chapel in Hudson (Tom Randall scandal) for over 15 years and was subjected to Covenant Eyes surveillance by pastors in both churches. The monitoring was “voluntary” but there was a lot of pressure from leadership and lay leaders to participate. Forced/coerced accountability is a bad enough form of abuse, but device monitoring is traumatizing. Every time I picked up my phone or used my laptop I was wondering what would get flagged and generate a text message, email, call, or impromptu meeting from a pastor. What if my wife looked up something on the laptop and it led to an awkward conversation? Beyond all that was the knowledge that the church knew literally EVERYTHING I was doing online. This fact alone kept me from doing many harmless and even healthy things because I felt my privacy was being invaded. The abusers never empathized with my concerns but only insinuated that if I wasn’t comfortable with them knowing what I was viewing then I must be trying to hide something and I should sanctify my heart and give my internet time over to God.
I’ve left the monsters behind and amazingly, by some miracle (heavy sarcasm), the internet has *not* destroyed my life.
I hope every day that society continues to publicly shame these diseased people and move us away from the toxicity of their imaginations.
I have no idea how the word “honest” got into my comment. I’ll just blame it on my keyboard’s software, which has been substituting some very strange words lately…
christiane,
christiane, I have to both agree and disagree. This attitude vs. the kind of shaming,,etc. that you’re talking about varies from diocese tondocese and most definitely from parish to parish.
I think you’re very much a Vatican II-era person, as am i (though in my case, not Catholic). Sadly, that kind of ecumenism, positive attitudes and openness have disappeared in many places, and were never adopted in others.
As with everything else YMMV. I mean, mine certainly does, in respect to knowing and learning from many Catholic friends who are pretty much on the same page as you. Suffice it to say that i wish there would be a fresh wind blowing into *all* churches today, no matter their denominations.
Attitude… has
Danged count nouns!
What about those of us who do work on our computers? And have 2 to 4 in use at any one time?
I would be violating my clients confidence and maybe some laws by sharing such things. But refusing would label me as ??????
This is just a very bad idea.
Ever read Lifton’s “Thought Reform And The Psychology of Totalism”? Sounds like Covenant Lies would be a staple in a totalist environment at a “church.”