The intriguing streaks in this recent view of Jupiter are hazes floating above the planet’s cloud tops. NasaJuno
“True love is built on free will and free choice, not control and manipulation.”
On Monday, I introduced you to Gracepoint Ministries by discussing Covenant Eyes. A student who was involved with the ministry reported his experience. Gracepoint utilized this mechanism as a means of overseeing the lives of the students involved in the ministry. Gracepoint came across as an authoritarian-based, controlling church. Christianity Today posted At Gracepoint Ministries, ‘Whole-Life Discipleship’ Took Its Toll. Only Sky posted The many red flags Gracepoint Church waved. The media got interested in this story due to Gracepoint’s use of Covenant Eyes to hold their members accountable.
Gracepoint came out with a media statement regarding Covenant Eyes. My interpretation of the message is the usual: “Nothing to see here. Move along.
We would like to respond to the recent article in Wired.
We share the widely-held concerns about privacy violations related to technology use. However, applications like Covenant Eyes and Accountable2You are categorically different in that users voluntarily choose who sees their internet activity. At our church, only those that volunteer to serve as staff members are expected to have some sort of accountability software or arrangement. Our current practice is to discourage staff from choosing their leaders as their accountability partners as we prefer that to be close friends or others they feel comfortable with.
To provide some context, the fact is that among many Christians, the use of internet filtering or accountability software is often considered a good thing, with accountability software avoiding some of the clunky features of filtering software. We are open to better ways to accomplish safeguards our staff members desire and we’re hoping to find/implement such technologies.
Let’s take a quick look at this ministry.
What is Gracepoint?
From what I can tell by reading their website, they consider themselves an “Acts 2” collegiate-type church that has around 70 collegiate chapters throughout the United States and Taiwan. These collegiate churches target Asian American students. According to Christianity Today, the first church started in 1981 in Berkeley, CA, and was known as Berklund Baptist. It gets a bit confusing from here. I found a history of the group titled History of Gracepoint Ministries, Berkland Baptist Church, Antioch Baptist Church, and affiliated churches and ministries like Koinonia, ABSK, A2F, Kairos, etc. (Part 1). Interestingly, this website also discusses this group of churches’ emotional and spiritual abuses.
What are the concerns about abuse?
Christianity Today spoke directly with over 30 former members of this group, who outlined some of the abuses they endured.
Members said they were manipulated into confessing sins, screamed at by leaders, and overloaded with obligations to the point of illness. To keep members focused on mission work, Gracepoint effectively restricted dating, media consumption, and pet ownership. Leaders directed staff on how to arrange their homes, where to shop for clothes, and what cars to drive.
The students viewed their leaders as God’s mouthpiece.
“My leader’s words were like the words of God,” said Mun, who left the church last year due in part to anxiety. “I viewed God as this incredibly sensitive, temperamental, judgmental being. I’m one sin away from him dropping the hammer and smiting me, because that’s what my leaders were representing to me.”
Gracepoint has faced decades of criticism from members who left its ranks, but allegations drew new attention last year on a channel of the message board site Reddit. Posters allege they were belittled by church leaders, encouraged to take on credit card debt to fund ministry expenses, and slandered after choosing to leave the church.
The Only Sky article adds further insight. They require a “membership covenant.” (Finally, others are getting my concerns!)
The first thing I noticed about the Gracepoint membership covenant is that it contains no requirements whatsoever for its leaders. Nor does it contain a single item relating to appealing its leaders’ judgments and punishments.
…“Living by God’s word and growing in character and personal holiness.” How are we measuring this? What happens if someone is found lacking? And what if the leader’s assessment is wrong somehow?
“Being faithful, available, and teachable.” Again, how are we measuring this? Simple obedience to leaders? What if someone feels that a “teaching” violates their conscience? Or if they can’t be “available” in the way a leader wants, because the leader’s demand is simply excessive and unreasonable?
…“Exercising loving care and watchfulness over my fellow brothers and sisters.” This sounds like a demand that members snitch on anyone who disobeys. It also sounds like permission to stomp on other people’s boundaries, as we see when Christians try to make themselves a Designated Adult. Did the leaders of Gracepoint want a culture of backbiting, fear, hypervigilance, and gossip? Because this, this right here, this is exactly how you get one.
“Fully participating in all church-wide events, ministries and programs.” Here, we get another glimpse of just how onerous Gracepoint’s attendance demands must be. Again, attending “all” Gracepoint events may not be possible for everyone. What if an event is purely social in nature and conflicts with a family celebration? Or if it happens at midday and conflicts with a college student’s classes? Apparently, members get no slack at all.
“Submitting to church disciplinary action.” RED ALERT, RED ALERT, RED GODDAMN EFFIN’ ALERT. There is no link explaining what this “church disciplinary action” is or what forms it can take. Nor does it outline how to appeal disciplinary decisions. It especially doesn’t talk about how to report a leader whose discipline goes way off-limits.
This covenant is a blank check for abusers.
Gracepoint responded to CT when questioned, but I was unconvinced of their sincerity.
“I am very sorry for those who feel they have experienced harm under our ministry,” wrote Ed Kang, the church’s senior pastor and network leader, in an email response to questions sent by CT. Kang said he would be “eager to hear from them so that we can seek healing, apologize when necessary, and seek reconciliation.”
A regional director for the church, Daniel Kim (no relation to Michael Kim), shared his contact information on the forum, asking those looking for “personal reconciliation” to reach out.
- Let me remind you of my “personal reconciliation” story. When I wanted to join the Anglican church, I was told I must “reconcile” with my former pastors. Yes, the pastors who were threatening our group. It was my fault and, therefore, my responsibility to “reconcile.” That didn’t happen, and I never became an Anglican because I got the heck out of there. Be careful to ask whose responsibility it is to reconcile. I think that belongs to the church leadership. I think they may think it belongs to the abused members.
- I’m sorry for those who “feel” they have experienced abuse. Kang is not admitting anything. He claims they “feel” abused, but Kang doesn’t seem convinced they were abused. Always be wary of the “I’m sorry you feel that way.”
- Kang’s eager to hear from them. Be very cautious here. Why is he eager? He claims he will apologize “when necessary.” He’s not convinced it will be necessary.
- I would be cautious about contacting them directly. It is one more opportunity for them to pile it on.
- Neither man admitted to anything. It would seem that they would know some folks they should contact and most likely will not. (I am proved right in this suspicion in the next section.)
Gracepoint responded to the CT article. This is where it gets interesting.
I have highlighted some statements I find interesting.
I wanted to take this opportunity to respond to a recent Christianity Today article containing various allegations against Gracepoint.
First and foremost, abuse including spiritual abuse is absolutely wrong, and we as a church are against it, period. It is entirely incongruent with our Christian faith.
Some of the stories in the CT article are from people that I’ve personally known for many years, and I understand where they are coming from. I understand human interactions can be complicated and fraught, and I am really saddened that their experiences were at times hurtful, and it is my sincere hope and prayer that they will find healing and continue their faith journey with God.
To be sure, our staff and leaders take responsibility for those encounters that did not go well. We deeply regret to hear about anyone who felt they were hurt. None of what follows is in any way meant to dismiss the reality that we have caused hurt. But I believe that this regarding our practicCT article is inaccurate on many points and misses a lot of context and nuance and culture. The incidents reported are not characteristic of our ministry and do not represent approved practices by our church. Many thousands have gone through our ministry, most of whose experiences are quite different from what has been described by a few. In other words, the sorts of incidents reported in the article are not the norm, and most of our members would testify that they enjoy strong relationships with friends and leaders as well as deeply meaningful ministry work for the kingdom of God – with a lot of joy and laughter along the way.
But our ministry is carried out by imperfect sinners, 1,600 mostly lay ministers, who are “works in progress.” And the ministry that we are called to engage in is a tough one: the church is called to welcome broken sinners to be saved by God’s grace and then to disciple them into maturity in Christ. We believe that a leader’s role includes candidly addressing human brokenness and confronting sin when necessary, as the Bible mandates, in a loving and honest manner. But in that process, there are definitely situations where individuals make wrong calls, interactions go badly, and leadership comes across too controlling or too harsh.
We are working hard at self-examination to ensure that we do better – particularly in properly teaching and equipping our leaders to approach everyone in a loving and Biblical way, and with realism and balance.
I want to end by once more expressing my deepest regret to anyone we have hurt and urge concerned individuals to personally approach our leadership so we can seek healing, apologize where necessary and seek forgiveness and reconciliation.
Ed Kang
Senior PastorIf you have any questions/concerns, please call Jonathan at 510-753-0675, and we will be available to speak with you.
- They claim they are “against abuse.” Everyone is against abuse. This church group has been accused of abuse, so I wonder why since they are against abuse.
- Kang knows some of these people. Why hasn’t he reached out?
- Kang hopes they will find healing and continue with their faith journey. Why doesn’t he discuss how they can find healing? Could it be that he doesn’t want to admit he did anything wrong?
- He regrets that they “feel” they were hurt. He is most definitely not admitting that they were hurt. It’s only a “feeling.”
- The CT article was inaccurate on many points and missed nuances about culture. Read: You don’t understand Asians.
- Only a few were hurt. That is not the norm. Thousands were not. How does he know that?
- We’re imperfect, so you must give us a pass on the very few things we’ll admit we screwed up.
As for contacting them, I have a piece of advice for those who were abused (and I believe they were), do not approach them alone, if at all. These guys are not going to apologize. They want to get your name to see who is complaining. I can almost guarantee that they have consulted lawyers. I believe that reconciliation at this time is not in the cards if you get my drift.
Pastor Kim’s response on Reddit: Shut up, you’re hurting our ministry.
Finally, if you want to know how the leaders might respond, Only Sky reports this response from a Gracepoint pastor.
But it is “Pastor Daniel,” mundanely known as Daniel Kim, who showed up this past February on the Gracepoint subreddit. At that time, he began a thread he titled “A plea from Gracepoint.” His plea, simply put, was for his church’s critics to shut up so Gracepoint could enjoy success with recruitment again. I’m not kidding. Here’s a sampling of what he wrote:
I don’t know if you know, but these reddit posts have caused quite a bit of damage to our church, and a lot of discouragement to our staff. . .
But what you’re doing on these reddit posts is actually doing quite a bit of damage to that goal [recruitment]. If your aim is to cripple our efforts at reaching the non-Christians on campus – well, I’m sad to say that you’re getting increasingly successful at it. It’s kind of working. . .
I just want to appeal to you. Do you really want to do this? At a time like this? When Christianity’s reputation across the land has hit a historical low, and everyone is losing trust in all institutions? . . .
Let’s seek a more constructive way to move toward talking about hurts and wrongs and misunderstandings.
Daniel Kim, February 2022
A different response would be to report them to the various university/college administrations.
I have a suggestion. People who were hurt at each campus should get together, write up a document dealing with the particulars of the abuses, and present it to the university/college administration. I predict they will not be amused by what happened and might consider banning the group from campus. I think abused students might get a better response from the administration than dealing with the likes of Pastor Kim. Maybe then Gracepoint Ministries would actively seek to reconcile. 😉
“This covenant is a blank check for abusers.”
Lots of blank checks for shenanigans floating around in [cult] churches nowadays.
– Church Covenants
– NDAs
– Face Recognition Software
– Rules for thee but not for me Church Discipline
– Life Group Cells, small group surveillance over church members
Another cult taking advantage of weaknesses in Asian culture. The short of it: “you are an idiotic fool! We do all of the thinking for you. Complain and we will punish you. You are too bloody stupid to follow the Holy Spirit yourself. Besides you do not want the responsibility. Shut up and get in line! Legalism will fix you. Big brother is watching you! We are the Holy Spirit! I am pastor jesus christ Kim. Follow me, I would never lead you astray…”
From the OP:
Hurting their efforts to reach non-christians and to pull them into their cult?
Now that would be A Good Thing.
From the OP:
The can’t even be bothered to fake that.
Which actor said, “Sincerity, that is key. If you can fake that, you’ve got it made.”? (HUG would probably know that)
But they may be constitutionally unable to fake it h for that you must’ve been sincere at least a few times in your life. They probably wouldn’t recognize sincerity if it fell from the sky and hit them in their head.
You would think “imperfect sinners” would allow some room for not attending everything. There’s absolutely no leeway in that whatsoever.
As many redditers might say, this is a red flag, or a “marinara flag” (I believe that came from one poster who made a joke about an AITA post where SIL threw spaghetti on the floor).
But then Kim makes it quite clear what is really important to the church, which is recruiting new members. Not the health of the members they have or the problems discussed by former members. They don’t care about people for the sake of those people; they care about filling up seats to put people under psychological and financial control.
My last Baptist church, which was James Merritt’s church Crosspointe, started out with a vision for whole person health and then deteriorated to constant demands to bring in more people. Everything became about filling up seats. They started telling people not to go to Sunday School and just do welcoming and parking lot duties. I noticed instead of people staying around longer, they left and went somewhere else. There were no covenants to force people to stay, so those people acted on the emptiness they found in church and left.
I suspect a lot of these churches know they have little to offer people, which is why covenants have become so popular with pastors. They don’t care about people; they care about filling up the church seats and coffers. So now they try to force people to commit and to stay so they don’t have to bother with meeting any needs.
If churches cared more about people’s souls, they wouldn’t just focus on their eternal soul, but their current spiritual and mental conditions.
“Turning the tables”
To me, that statement, concept, gets to the heart of “TWW”…
“turning the tables”, to me is another way of saying “leadership accountability”…
While I could go on and on ( eye roll), regular readers know..
And, to me, the Gospel message is freedom, not bondage..
Yikes. It’s the Shepherding and Discipling Movement all over again. Control freakery on steroids.
And targeting vulnerable, impressionable young college kids — that’s reprehensible.
“Gracepoint effectively restricted dating, media consumption, and pet ownership”
Pet ownership?! Now, they’ve crossed the line!!
Gracepoint’s affiliation with the Southern Baptist Convention is showing through … it’s all about manipulation, intimidation and domination in SBC churches these days, since the New Calvinists took over.
Why yes, because white evangelical culture is sooo much stronger!
This line “stuck out” for me:
‘But our ministry is carried out by imperfect sinners, 1,600 mostly lay ministers, who are “works in progress.” ‘
I wonder how much training and life experience the lay ministers have. My perception from my (decades ago) experience in CCC (now called “Cru”) is that in the campus ministry, students were assigned significant roles of spiritual influence over other students. The training, IIRC, was not extensive — periodic one- or two-day conferences and some printed materials for personal study on campus (such as the “transferrable concepts”), and some group study led by paid CCC staff.
Perhaps they were relying on the Holy Spirit to produce a good outcome regardless of the actual skill of the sub-leaders.
Samuel Conner,
Your recollection is similar to mine….. As Max likes to say, what was missing most was “mentoring” from old gray hairs like Max (and me).
But then who wants to listen to us … 🙂
“(Ed) Kang said he would be “eager to hear from them so that we can seek healing, apologize when necessary, and seek reconciliation.”
…Daniel Kim.. shared his contact information on the forum, asking those looking for “personal reconciliation” to reach out.”
+++++++++++++
i imagine “personal reconciliation” is the last thing these people want.
I would guess they want accountability (buzzword at the moment), restitution of some kind (i’m not thinking $, but rather something akin to ultra sincere apology, a c comprehensive admission of wrongdoing, and and an explanation of change).
I imagine they know all too well what to expect with “personal reconciliation” — they will be be framed as ultimately being at fault, and the blame will shift to them in multiple ways.
.
.
i’ve seen this before with abusive pastors 1, 2, and 3.
abusive pastors are skilled at being shysters, cloaked in carefully curated facial expressions and word choice. (old news, of course)
I would argue whatever they lack in nature has been nurtured along by the church leadership industry.
Something you would have never heard in the early church, even though all of the preachers then were “lay ministers” … but when they found Jesus, they were no longer “works in progress”; they were converted, committed and devoted to the Gospel, perfected by the Master’s hand and walking in the Holy Spirit.
sounds like a ‘cult’ and a rather extreme one at that,
VERY controlling to the point of abuse, yes
Christian? no way – departs from Christianity along the lines of how the neo-Cals abandoned Our Lord as the Revealer of God
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Thanks for confirming this 4 decades old memory. The confidence with which these young people affirmed their vision of “how sanctification works” now looks to me like “hubris”. Perhaps “hands had been laid on them” too soon.
Max,
I’m not sure. Peter seems to have still been something of a “work in progress” — we see signs of “fear of man” in him both before (his denial of Jesus when “put on the spot” after Jesus’ arrest) and after (his caving to the Judaizers on the question of whether believing Jews could share table with believing Gentiles) Pentecost. It seems to have been a continuing struggle for him.
I suspect that a major difference in the early church is that spiritual oversight was not frequently entrusted to young believers. Timothy’s youth may have been more an exception than the rule. If present day campus ministry relies on young people ministering to younger people, that might be a weak point in the ministry model. Or, to put it another way, “maturity in Christ” may not be something that comes quickly, and that is why Paul cautions against being hasty to “ordain” young believers.
I agree.
Focus on the ‘eternal soul’ requires no ‘capital investment’ in this here and now so to speak.
After the resurrection and the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost to empower and guide him, you don’t see Peter as a “work in progress” but progressing the work of Christ. There was a situation where Paul rebuked Peter for refusing to eat with the Gentiles, but I wouldn’t consider Peter to be an “imperfect sinner” or a “work in progress” at that point … the man was on fire to preach and live the Gospel!
Many of the problems in the American church can be attributed to that, IMO. There is no doubt that an army of young reformers are running roughshod over the church because they had hands laid on them hastily … taking over churches by stealth and deception is not evidence of spiritual maturity.
Max, you brought back so many memories. I was badly burned by young, immature believers 40+ years ago, and it has made me wary of churches and groups ever since. Thankfully, two older believers with “gray hair” gave me the support and answers I needed at the time. Where are the older folks today leading the churches?
It didn’t help that I was one of those “noble Berean” types who regularly read the bible and thought about what I read. Then I made the “mistake” of asking questions. It didn’t end well.
Reading this post felt painful, given all the memories that came up.
My experience with SGMs campus ministry seems familiar. Added to that, there was an expectation that you should be leading a Bible study by your sophomore year if you were really a dedicated Christian. I personally found that a little weird. I did not have time to lead a Bible study, and faced a weird sort of condescension over it. I was also not attending the local SGM church, but rather went to an OPC church, which resulted in people trying to evangelize me… it was a weird culture.
I’d like to respectfully point out that the following people have or had gray hair: Doug Wilson, Ravi Zacharias, Page Patterson, and John Piper, among others. The person who introduced me to courtship via Josh Harris was my mother, who was in her 40s and 50s at the time, and very gray. I was very busy listening to my elders as a young adult, and they led me in directions I now believe were abusive, dangerous, and/or counter Biblical. My parents, both nearing 70 now, give terrible marriage and financial advice that they are convinced is Biblical.
My point is this: age can bring wisdom, but unfortunately, the young really need to have their own wisdom in order to discern which gray heads to follow and what exactly a specific gray head is qualified to give advice on.
I understand that you are talking about churches that lack generational variety, and churches that chased their older members out. But, I find it hard to blame this problem on a lack of “gray hair” when my predominant experience was the “gray hairs” leading me astray, because I wasn’t listening to the young.
ES,
Good points…. No simple solution to heracitical/abusive situations..
ES,
“terrible…advice that they are convinced is Biblical.”
++++++++++++++
if one chooses to enter or occupy in christian/church culture, i’m convinced a basic safety protocol is to stay on the outer perimeter.
and maintain plenty of relationships with people outside of it. (who are more likely to retain objectivity)
christiane,
“Christian? no way – departs from Christianity…”
+++++++++++++
well, i tend to think “christian” is a human-made thing that has very little to do with Jesus of Nazareth.
sort of like velveeta ‘cheese’. maybe there’s a trace element of cheese somewhere in the rubbery block.
or maybe not. it’s dyed orange-yellow block so they simply call it cheese.
Which is why it’s dogma that ANY association with Any Heathens outside of The One True Body of Christ WILL cause you to lose your Salvation/Be Left Behind.
Why megas have in-house “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” knockoffs of everything in Heathen culture, from workout videos to bowling leagues to amusement parks.
Why you have to avoid Heathen Contamination on pain of God’s (and Pastor/Apostle’s) White Hot Wrath.
So that you have NO relationships with anyone or anything other than Church. Nowhere to go.
“Come Out from Among the Heathen…”
Don’t forget Kenneth Copeland (world’s richest televangelist) and Bill Got Hard – at least under their hair dye. NOBODY gets to their Eighties with a 20-year-old’s Baratheon Black hair without a trace of grey.
Gray hair does not equal wisdom. The names you provide are perfect examples.
Age does not bring spiritual maturity. The number of years in a pulpit does not yield Biblical understanding.
The time it took to get gray hair doesn’t necessarily qualify any Wartburger to speak with wisdom … but it helps.
They already anticipated you, Ishy:
“IT’S ALL GONNA BURN.”
When the New Calvinist movement breathes its last breath (it will, all religious cults eventually die), thousands (perhaps millions) will be left confused and disillusioned in the wake of the young, restless and reformed mob. They may never try church again. Whose plan would that be?
And the following is not a critique on their wisdom, but my sister started going gray in her 20s. My uncle has always had gray hair in my memory, which means fully gray in his 30s.
Thanks for spreading the word about Gracepoint. Hopefully others will see this and see the red flags.
Ava Aaronson,
Is it permissible to use those two words in the same sentence?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“Is it permissible to use those two words in the same sentence?”
+++++++++++++
i’m sure we could find a verse for it somewhere.
Max,
Judging by the comments I see on social media, that’s already happening. People are mad and angry and calling it an abusive cult (rightfully so). They’ve figured out that “submitting to authority” only benefits those holding the power and doesn’t help anyone follow God more or be a better person.
The SBC has lots tons of members and is bleeding people and money. The New Cals haven’t managed to keep their hold over the SBC and lost the elections they were certain they were going to win. Lifeway stores have been closing down all over.
They’re probably going to keep grasping at straws until the very end, while blaming everyone else for not going along with it. I honestly don’t think they are smart enough to figure out their time has gone.
ES,
My hair is completely silver and I am rather middle-aged. I had thought about that, too. Started going grey in high school.
John Kim,
I am so sorry for all those who were (and are being) hurt.
elastigirl,
interesting imaging 🙂
the best ‘Christian’ I ever knew was a Jewish rabbi (Orthodox) who, with great kindness, cared for my friend after her son passed away and her grief nearly killed her
there are so many fake ‘christians’ out there
and
there are so very many ‘anonymous’ Christians who do not know the Holy Name, but live in His Light none-the-less
Only God knows the human heart.
Psalm 101:3 “I will set no worthless thing before my eyes”
🙂
The God Who gave us ‘choice’ also inscribed His law on our hearts in the form of ‘moral conscience’,
so we are ABLE to ‘respond’ that inner voice which is in all human-kind that directs us towards what is ‘good’ and away from what is ‘evil’. . .
maybe ‘RESPONSE-ABILITY’ is a more meaningful term than ‘accountability’ because ‘responsibility’ applies to those who are able to act IN FREEDOM according to their choices given to them by God and according to their God-given guide: their own internal moral conscience
a cult-leader who overrides individuals’ moral consciences violates what IS God-given, and that may be something that is the largest marker of what a cult is capable of doing . . .
is a human person still answerable to God if his excuse says ‘the leader told me to do this’? I think that is debatable but IF the person WILLINGLY ‘follows the leader’ and abandons his own moral conscience, then that also is a kind of CHOICE.
(am thinking Nuremburg trials here)
with freedom, comes ‘response-ability’, yes
if we sin against God by choice, we must answer to Him for the consequences by taking responsibility for our actions before God
and the cult ‘leader’ ??? the one who ‘demands’ ‘accountability’ . . .
perhaps it’s time that people ‘walked away’ from that which ‘insults their own souls’ 🙂
two references:
‘walking away’ – “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas” is a 1973 work of short philosophical fiction by American writer Ursula K. Le Guin. With deliberately both vague and vivid descriptions, the narrator depicts a summer festival in the utopian city of Omelas, whose prosperity depends on the perpetual misery of a single child”
AND
‘insults their own soul’:
“Walt Whitman — ‘re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul;”
My sisters and I really took note of this short story when we read it in our youth.
And one of my brothers really loved Walt Whitman.
Thanks for these references.
I like the terms you’ve brought up: “response-ability,” “willingness,” “freedom” of conscience and “insults” to our own souls.
When I consider the word “accountability,” it falls short, for me, of what seems to be a better thing, “wanting” the better thing. When Paul, in Romans, talks of his struggle, at least he “wants” the better thing. When someone gives up something they want because it may bother someone else (say porn use, for example, or maybe excessive ice cream consumption or a pervasive self-righteous attitude), IMO, that is not as good as giving it up because they want a better thing for themselves and others.
Mr. Jesperson,
Mr. Jesperson, I’m just going to use your point as a jumping off point for a rant that’s been building since helping my local library with their geneaology project and started talking to a lot of people about ancestors. So some of this will address point you never made. But hopefully it makes sense and reaches somebody. I know what /reading/ someone who is ranting on someone else’s blog about something only tangentially related to the actual article is like, let’s see what the other side feels like…
It’s just a touch, a /bit/ much to be calling this the result of Asian culture when the Wartburg Watch is full of examples of similarly abusive churches that are majority white. Not because whites are inherently more abusive but because Dee’s social networks seem to spread outwards from a similarly majority white church community.
Replying to a stereotype with a stereotype, probably not one well-known outside of very Asian Californian communities– Nobody on God’s green earth can out-stubborn and out-will a Cantonese woman.
Does this mean it is impossible for a Cantonese woman to join a abusive church? No more than it is impossible for a cynical Russian, practical German, or free-spirited Frenchman to join an abusive church. There are stereotypes enough to suggest every kind of person “should” or “shouldn’t” be more likely to join abusive churches.
Please think more about what exactly you’re saying makes Asian students more susceptible to Gracepoint’s form of abuse. Alot of Asians in America come from cultures that teach them respect authority, sometimes to the point of overawe. Like…the pilgrims? The puritans? Any number of immigrants that trusted the Catholic church so absolutely, the people raised in the hellfire and brimstone era of the SBC. Oh, that’s different, because Asians live locked in their timeless culture and will never change, just like those stiff Norwegians and feckless Irish. National stereotypes tell you everything about how someone who currently lives in a country and their overseas, 4 times removed ancestors live.
So why not mix Asian and Asian-American because once Asian always Asian and NEVER American. Everything and anything that makes the members of Gracepoint so uniquely at fault for being abused, unlike the white victims of white pastors, definitely stems from undiluted Asian culture.
Anybody sensing sarcasm here?
Whatever anyone says about Asian students being too blindly trusting to their institutions and keeping their head down and work long hours without question can probably apply to any other race’s distant or not-so-distant ancestors (even the people taken here with violence). Not many people came to America with the full, sunny confidence life was going to go great if they lived among strangers and questioned everything and abandoned every half-done enterprises.
Despite my frustrated tone, I made peace with how many people “don’t know any better” and probably never will. Stereotypes exist to help us not think. It’s how our brain works, like how if we decide blue is our color, dressing up gets so much easier. A lot of people find stereotypes funny, and even funnier when they have a grain of truth in them. But the thought arresting qualities of stereotypes don’t have to override our actual knowledge about where abuse happens. Yes, in my and your community too! And for much the same reasons it happens in other communities!
I take a grim comfort in how similar abusers are in mentality, even if some use *ahem* culturally sensitive tools.
That is a great way to capture it. If you missed it, I started a conversation about accountability in the post below this one. There is no Biblical support for “accountability” among Christians.
Ella,
Ella, thanks for sharing that . . .
it is a mystery to us when we do that which we do not ‘want to do’, as in St. Paul’s case, yes
it shows us our ‘woundedness’ for what it is, a weakness and a failing that is in need of God’s healing and mercy and above all, ‘grace’
and what helps me is knowing Christ came to look for those who were ‘lost’, and that He had pity when He looked out at the crowds and saw the many who were ‘lost and discouraged and without a shepherd’ . . .
it means a lot to me to know that the very first Christians were drawn to Christ by the idea that they would be able to see their loved ones again who had passed on . . .
and for these early Christians, a popular ‘icon’ above the graves of their loved children was Our Lord with a wounded lamb on His Shoulders, bearing the lamb safely home
we are ‘wounded’, yes;
but I don’t think we are ‘totally depraved’ as some have taught, no and Our Lord didn’t look out on those crowds and see ‘totally depraved’ souls either, no
In His great mercy, He comes to us as ‘the Good Shepherd’, the Great Physician, not as some wrathful ‘god’ of those who think THEY are ‘chosen’ and the rest of us are the ‘lost’
a wounded, lost lamb wants to go home and be healed, the reality that this was ‘possible’ in the great mercy of Christ spoke to the earliest Christians, yes
‘wanting’ to be better seems a very good insight to me, thank you for sharing it with us 🙂
sweaterweather,
i appreciated your comment. I have no disagreement.
but since you mentioned genealogy and generally favoring an approach that is reasonable, fair, equitable, and charitable,
and if an asian person and a cantonese person can be described as asian or cantonese,
why can’t I be european instead of the derogatory label “white”?
speaking as someone who cares deeply for minorities and those at a disadvantage.
A Cult called Naziism crashed and burned 13 years into a planned Thousand, but managed to cause a LOT of damage in those 13 years. The last 7 of those 13 spent destroying an entire CONTINENT with a body count of over 40 MILLION.
sweaterweather,
Though a lot of stuff like this comes out of South Korea.
(Ever since “El Biggo” – the Moonies – surfaced in the 1970s.)
Like Chosin Peninsula south of the 38th has become the Weird Religion Capital of today’s Asia, like Upstate New York (the Burned Over District) was for the 19th Century USA until said capital moved to California in the 20th.
Have you seen the US Census Bureau definition for white? It is surprising.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
….as i see it, these are growing pains.
‘the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice’, MLK.
these things are inevitable in the long process of bending and conforming towards what is moral and just.
and understanding the past and present
and facing realities with more selfless compassion and less ideology. caring about people much more than principle.
it’s miserable at the moment. but necessary.
this is a romanticized summary statement. but i wanted to follow up with something.
–signed, someone who cares deeply for those in the margins.
Because of politics elastigirl, politics and fashion.
It’s very hip and fashionable nowadays to make white people the cause of all things bad in the world.
Yes, I appreciate the discussion of the word accountability and the concepts trying to be represented by the word in the previous post, too. There was a time when I encountered the word used a lot in previous church environments and I was impressed, sad to say.
My wife and I don’t share the same ethnicity.
– went to the optometrist with my son. Went in with him for the eye exam. Was asked if I am his father. He’s covered under my insurance. I keep having to answer the same (insert expletive here) question every time I take the kids somewhere…
– in a school project on ancestry, my kid was told that there was no way he could be descended from Vikings – I’m of northern European extraction so yes he is descended from (insert expletive) Vikings.
I’ve been married 18 years – and microaggressions are part of life.
My wife has been denied access to our accounts, she’s been separated from the family at the airport for special screening in a line of other Asian women, and if you ever want to really be her enemy just ask if she’s a “mail order bride” (done less frequently these days)
These are just a few examples over the years.
“More hay, Trigger?”
“No thanks, Roy, I’m stuffed”
Jack,
I’m so sorry, Jack, that you and your family have experienced – and continue – to experience this….people can be so truly awful and stupid.
Le Guin wrote “Omelas” as an indirect commentary on a pedophilia scandal coverup in the SF community of the time. She had to be indirect as the pedo-perp had powerful connections.
A background situation analogous to a LOT of churches and denoms.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
And Dones have just walked away from “Just like Omelas, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Thanks.
I don’t think people in the dominant culture realize that there’s folks whose narrative and experience are different.
They hear stories from their grandparents and parents of experience that the dominant culture does not have or understand.
I sure didn’t but in retrospect, it’s there.
It’s not about white people or European folks being inherently evil.
Jack,
i agree, wholeheartedly.
i am sort of weary of being vilified. I am routinely yelled at and cussed out for appearing as i do. i wear a hood now.
but i understand that my experience is mere shades of what others have gone through for generations.
i understand that process is messy.
i hope for better things all ’round.
this is a difficult topic to talk about. but if ‘we’ don’t respectfully listen to each other,….
i mean, where common sense and intuition fall short, we simply don’t know what we don’t know. and end up living in a realm of our assumptions about others.
I don’t know where you’re located but being called out, vilified and cussed to the point of wearing a hood is not good.
I have not experienced that here and I’m not going to make excuses for general misbehavior.
I’m hoping that diversity will lead to an overall acceptance of everyone.
There’s no easy answers.
HEADLESS,
anytime you think Nazi-ism is ‘over’, just take a look at the films of Charlottesville and the ‘invasion’ of participants in a ‘rally’ that shouted slogans reminiscent of the Nazi era … (ie. ‘Jews will not replace us’)
Charlottesville is where many of my family live and it is a very ‘civilized’ university town with an important medical center and it has quiet peaceful ways, so the shock of that torch-burning rally and the murder of Heather Heyer strongly affected the residents there;
ESPECIALLY after Trump said ‘there are good people on both sides’ – a comment that will live in infamy as it showed Trump’s soul openly to his base who are constantly being fed fascist red-meat . . .
‘Nazi-ism’ (racism, anti-semitism, misogyny, fascism, on and on and on, has NOT ‘died’ in the ruins of Nazi Germany et al, no
we have it here, and it is a poison that will not leave before it has done its deadly work, I’m afraid
we are in for it, HEADLESS – the handwriting is on the wall for sure
And the CHRISTIANS will Cheer it On.
Just like they did in 1933 Germany.
When the Fuehrer WON their Culture War against The Global Left and Berlin’s HOMOSEXUAL Decadence.