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“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” ― Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
How to do a confession, and it does involve the word “sin.”
I belong to a conservative Lutheran church that takes the time of confession seriously. That is not something that goes on in many megachurches, even those churches that are part of the one true theology which involves being young, restless, and reformed. I have been a member of such churches and know of what I speak. Thankfully, that has changed. Let me lay out the time of confession in my church. After we have prayed for our members and the world’s needs, we head towards communion. However, there is a time of confession taken very seriously and most solemnly. Here is a typical sort of prayer that we will pray out loud.
Pastor: Most merciful God,
Congregation: we confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen
When we get to this part, the pastor will say something like:
Take a moment to confess your sins to God silently.
At this point, there is a hush over the church as people take this earnestly and soberly. Then, as one considers the weight of one’s sins, the pastor will say something to the effect of
Pastor: Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake, forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I, therefore, declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
We then begin preparation for the rite of communion. What would you say if I said we ended the time of confession like this?;
Jump up, whoop and holler and high-five each other, loudly clapping and having the drummer beat his drums loudly, with people laughing and joking around with one another. And continue in this way as the people come down the aisles for communion.
Let’s contrast this with what we do. We give each other a handshake, hug, or wave, saying to each one, “The peace of Christ.”
If you haven’t seen such a service, you are missing out, but what does this have to do with anything? Yesterday, when Chandler confessed to a sin, well, to something, he apparently got a standing ovation and a round of applause. People were heard yelling, “We love you, Matt.” And this was fine and dandy since Chandler’s not going anywhere except to a nice, long LOA.
This response by the congregation was inappropriate. A confession needs to be treated with the solemnity with which it is offered, which may be why this “confession” was not treated with due respect. I guess no one prepped the congregation, perhaps hoping they would do this. I don’t know, but it was surprisingly shallow for the self-styled premier, Reformed, SBC church. Perhaps there is a lack of teaching in this area.
Matt Chandler confesses he did something to get himself on a leave of absence, but I’m not sure exactly what that was.
It was quite a church service at The Village Church yesterday. TVC, as it is affectionately known, is a stealth Reformed Southern Baptist Church. Matt Chandler, the lead pastor, is considered one of the leaders of the ” (Not so) Young, Restless and Reformed crowd. He is the beloved head (at least until recently being removed from that for now)of Acts 29, the Reformed church group, and is loved by the usual crowd like Al Mohler. He might be embarrassed to let you know that he was once a fan of Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney. Chandler did not have formal training to be a pastor, having graduated with a BA. in Bible from Hardin-Simmons Unversity, which has longstanding financial problems.
What did the church leaders and Chandler say?
Judge for yourself. Here is the entire video of the worship service. Go to 18:06 minutes to begin the “confession.”
Here is a statement from the church
A few months ago, an individual approached The Village Church’s lead pastor Matt Chandler with concerns about the way he was using direct messaging on social media with a woman who was not his wife. Matt shared those concerns with his wife, Lauren, and two elders, Josh Patterson and elder Chairman Jasien Swords that same evening, and submitted to their leadership in addressing the situation.
The elders commissioned an independent law firm to conduct a review of Matt’s messaging history across social media platforms, cell phone, and email. The investigators’ report led the elders to conclude that Matt violated our internal social media use policies, and more importantly that, while the overarching pattern of his life has been “above reproach”, he failed to meet the 1 Timothy standard for elders of being “above reproach” in this instance.
We are strong proponents of brothers and sisters in Christ being friends, but there are boundaries around what’s appropriate in these kinds of friendships. A pastoral role requires a greater awareness of those boundaries. In this case, while the messages were not romantic or sexual in nature, the frequency and familiarity of the messages crossed a line. They revealed that Matt did not use language appropriate for a pastor, and he did not model a behavior that we expect from him.
While the elders believe this did not rise to the level of disqualification, we hold elders to a higher standard of behavior. The elders concluded, and Matt agreed, that Matt’s behavior was a sign of unhealth in his life, and that the best course of action would be for him to take a leave of absence from teaching and preaching at The Village Church. Matt’s leave of absence is both disciplinary and developmental, which allows him to focus on growing greater awareness in this area. The timeline for his return will be dictated by the elders’ expectations for his development.
We know this update is challenging, and you may have questions about this or want to process this with someone. That is normal and expected. Our staff and leaders are available to receive you and pray with you. If you don’t know who to connect with or where to go, you can start by emailing the Care department, and we’ll make sure your email gets connected to the right person.
While we do wish to respond to every inquiry, we appreciate your grace and understanding as we seek to prioritize the care of our congregation in this season.
Here is a transcript of the statement by Matt Chandler as posted on Protestia.
Hey guys. I know it just feels like ‘oh my gosh, what’s coming?’ So let me, I’m the lead pastor of this church, I plan on being the lead pastor of this church for the next 20 years. But I do need to… It’s harder seeing you.
Several months ago, a woman approached me, outside here in the foyer, she had some concerns for how I was DMing on Instagram with a friend of hers. I didn’t think I had done anything wrong in that; my wife knew that, her husband knew that. And yet, there were a couple of things that she said, they were disorienting to me.
And so I immediately came in the room, I found chairman of the elder boards, Jason Swords, found Josh Patterson, the other lead pastor, and said, “This is what this person just told me.” And then I went home, Lauren wasn’t with me that night, and I told Lauren, this is what was said to me tonight.
From there, the elders began to look into, because that’s what they’re supposed to do. Because we cannot be a church where anyone is above the scriptures, and above the high heavenly call into Christ Jesus. And so they looked into the conversation between me and this other woman, and they had some concerns.
And those concerns were not that our messaging was romantic or sexual. It was that our conversations were unguarded and unwise, and because I don’t ever want there to be secrets between us, the concerns were really about frequency and familiarity.
We believe in brother/sister relationships here, and yet there was a frequency that moved past that. There was a familiarity that played itself out in coarse and foolish joking that’s unbefitting of someone in my position as a lead pastor, and as an elder I’m held to a higher standard and fell short of that higher standard.
So the elders have decided, and I think they’re right, that my inability to see what I was in probably has some revealing some unhealth in me. And I don’t know if that’s tied to my run pace or the difficulty of the last six or seven years, but I agree with them. And so in their grace to me and my family, they’ve decided and again, I think they’re right, to put me on a leave of absence starting immediately from preaching and teaching at the Village Church.
If I’m honest I’m just really embarrassed. Feel stupid. Feel dumb. Feel like I’m embarrassing my wife and kids. Putting a ton of pressure on our staff. Feel like I’ve fallen short for you-and you might be hearing me, you might not even be a Christian, you might be hearing me saying this, like ‘what the H?’
But the Word of God holds me to a certain standard. And, I need to I need to live into that, and I fell short. And man, I’m apologizing- my family, to you, to all involved in this situation. And I, some things I love, I love that our elders engaged at the level they did. You know, easy this would have been to make it nothing and just let me not address whatever this is? Super grateful that the elders have loved us and walked with us the way that they have. Super grateful for you. I’m super hopeful for what’s to come in the future. But I need to breathe. And that’s both discipline, the discipline and it’s development. And so when in time, forgive me, I love you. Eager for the other side of this, whatever God has for us. And so let me pray for us. And then Josh will step in and lead us in the service.”
So let’s boil it down and try to answer, “What did Matt do?” (I’m still not sure.)
- Chandler started his “confession” by saying, “I’m going to be here for 20 years.” This must mean he has no intention of going anywhere. He plans to be back after a nice, long rest and catching up with his cattle at the clean steak farm. Will he get paid? Does this use up his vacay time, or does he get a lot of time away from the pulpit? I think I wrote about that once. How many Sundays is he usually present anyway?
- He offered the obligatory “heartfelt tears.” These SBC boys have this one down pat. Remember JD Greear crying over sex abuse in the SBC? He quickly hired Brian Loritts as one of his pastors, and now he’s smiling.
- Chandler had an online, DM relationship with a woman “who was not his wife,” which was not romantic or sexual. Here is where it gets bizarre.
- “We believe in brother/sister relationships here, yet there was a frequency that moved past that.” So it wasn’t a brother/sister relationship? Was it something more? Sounds like it.
- “There was a familiarity that played itself out in coarse and foolish joking” So what does he mean by “coarse?” I spent many years as a nurse in the old days when doctors, mostly men, could get coarse and not get in trouble. If someone got coarse, it usually meant it leaned toward sexual: anatomy jokes, etc. These days, they would get fired for “coarse” jokes. We know of some who were.
- Chandler said he is to be held to a “higher standard.” A higher standard than who? Me? You guys sitting in the auditorium pretending this is church? What does that higher standard disallow? Sexual innuendoes? Jokes? What? This makes no sense.
- Here is what jumped out at me. He claims he did this coarse and foolish joking with a woman who was not his wife. Does this mean he could do this coarse and foolish joking with another man? One of his pastors?
- He says that there is “unhealth in me.”Is he saying he’s sick? Awkward phrasing.
- He says his apparent woes are “tied to the pace I run or the difficulty of the last six, seven years, ” What happened in those years? Karen Hinckley was treated like a pail of codswallop in the inner sanctum of TVC: Megachurch: Stay With Your Kiddie Porn-Watching Husband—or Face ‘Discipline,’ the lawsuit from a teen who was assaulted at a TVC church camp. Anthony Moore, etc. Is this the sign of a pastor who did not get sufficient training for the job he jumped into?
- This nonromantic, non-sexualized relationship was discovered several months ago. What took them so long to let the church know? Chandler was still running the show even though he was headed towards an LOA. The rhetoric in Chandler’s nonconfession sounds very PR to me. Did a PR firm help with this non-confession?
- Why didn’t Chandler use th word “sin?’ He’s going on an LOA as a form of discipline, but he did nothing sinful? He sure threw the word “sinful” around when it involved Karen Hinckley, but he seems unable to apply it to himself.
- Wait a minute-even, the elders’ statement used the non-word “unhealth.” “The elders concluded, and Matt agreed, that Matt’s behavior was a sign of unhealth in his life,” I wonder-was it dreamed up by a PR company to avoid using a disqualifying word like “sin?” Surely someone knows the PR firm the church uses. Did they use it? How much did they get paid and did they use church funds?
- I don’t care if they inspected his phone. There are many other phones for purchase out there. The same thing goes for emails. There are ways…
- Why won’t they tell the congregation the name of the “third party” investigation firm? The tithes of the people sitting in front of Matt pay for that or do he and the elders remember that?
- Matt violated their social media use policies. What were those policies? Once again- he “violated policies” and they don’t use the word sin. Also, who pays for the access to social media that was being exploited? Is it the tithes of the members? Then they should know he misuses their hard-earned money.
- “…just let me not address whatever this is.” If Chandler doesn’t know what the “H.” it is, then how is his church supposed to figure out what’s going on? (Chandler used the H. term in his talk.
This is one of the most nonsensical handlings of a “pastor run amock” I have ever heard. I believe that there is much more to this story. There must be since it doesn’t appear that he did anything that could be characterized by the word “sin.” Yet it took them months to tell the church about it. I believe Chandler is dealing with more severe things than “unhealth. Stay tuned. Please let me know what I forgot.
The very end
- There is another problem here. Chandler did say something coarse in front of his followers: the infamous Narcissistic Zero Rant. Guess what? He wasn’t put on an LOA. This sort of coarse, despicable verbiage is allowed. So, whatever “coarse language” Chandler used, it must have been far worse than this.
(Special thanks to Watchkeep for posting this.)
PS SBC Voices posted We Need to Stop Applauding Fallen Pastors. Guess who they were thinking about?
“Sheep with rabies”?
This is a pastor talking about his church?
Seen and heard a lot but this is a first …
Do these churches not believe in professional counseling? Seems like both pastor and maybe some of the parishioners could use some – excellent professional counseling.
“He is the beloved head (at least until recently being removed from that for now) of Acts 29”
By the time the New Calvinists get through writing the 29th chapter of Acts, it will be so full of ministry failures that believers will not want to read it! A record of the misbehaving of NeoCal dudebros would not be a worthy addition to sacred text. Yep, the beloved Acts 29 boys have made a mess of things.
Wolf in shepherd’s clothing?
We have a relationship with high frequency and coarse joking between a married man and a married woman that admittedly went beyond a friendship. That sounds like an emotional affair to me. They just lacked the courage to call it for what it is.
Now, might Chandler so self-deceived himself that he did not realize this was what he was doing until the confrontation? Perhaps.
What did the girlfriend (the confronting party) say that was “disorienting?” I suspect it might have to do with her friend developing feelings. Hence, he discloses immediately to wife and elders. But we do not know.
More of my thoughts here: https://www.divorceminister.com/pastor-matt-chandler-put-on-indefinite-leave-over-inappropriate-communications/
Maybe he should be placed under the authority of a woman pastor “for a season”
Something sure smells about this. I would say it smells fishy (which it does) but it smells much more like what comes out of the south end of a north bound cow.
Anger and pride. If he is not being forced to reckon with them, it’s a complete sham of a disciplinary action.
My understanding of Jesus and the NT is that Jesus is the only Shepherd. No more middleman. Pastor is close, only close, not quite, and it is mentioned only once in the HS gifts to the church (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4). The HS gifts are for evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship (or collaboration, not coffee and donuts), the three overarching purposes of the church. Pastor is part of the discipleship group of gifts.
According to The NY Times, I think the friend either contacted or actually hired a law firm…which is really suspect to me. Yep, something happened to cross the line but nit enough to cut him. Makes too much money for them.
“The elders concluded, and Matt agreed, that Matt’s behavior was a sign of unhealth in his life,” I wonder – was it dreamed up by a PR company to avoid using a disqualifying word like “sin?”
We have to remember that within the Acts 29 community, and the larger NeoCal movement, coarse speech is not all that big a deal. Heck, some of the dudebros even include it in their “sermons” to get a laugh. They would never call coarse language a sin, figuring if God gave them a potty-mouth along with a pulpit, it must have been predestined to be so before the foundation of the world.
Sin? Nah. So they have to manufacture words like “unhealth” when they are called into account. Well, in my humble but accurate opinion, the whole of New Calvinism is unhealthy and is leaving a poor testimony before a lost world. The young and restless have deceived their way into pulpits with another gospel, attempting to change everything that is holy. There will be no standing ovations for them on Judgment Day.
Thanks for the link.
Here’s another, with more thoughts:
https://robinthinks.substack.com/p/the-dark-side-of-matt-chandlers-confession?sd=pf
Seriously? Looks like I have to pay for another month of NYT. Did they imply she is going to sue Chandler? Weirder and weirder.
Great comment, Max.
Ava Aaronson,
I liked that!
Afterburne,
I used the word “codswallop” in the post!
Wonder what they are doing with/about the woman?
This church doesn’t seem to have a good track record with advocacy for women (or advocacy for children, either). They do take care of their pastors, and men, in general, though, it seems.
This is the “kicker” to me:
Why didn’t Chandler use th word “sin?’ He’s going on an LOA as a form of discipline, but he did nothing sinful? He sure threw the word “sinful” around when it involved Karen Hinckley, but he seems unable to apply it to himself.
I have seen/experienced WAY TO MUCH of preacher boys judging pew peons, but not themselves… it makes me sick…
dee,
Hmmm… same here, as the church doesn’t seem to mention the woman involved, but apparently the NYT does.
That is my question, what about the woman – that the church is unconcerned with?
Was Chandler pulling a “Hybels” – going fishing for extra curricular?
I am curious to know what kind of church Village Church is. If only the leaders and members knew about each and every kind of person that joins Village Church. Many (too many) years ago, I dated a man who would eventually join Village church. He emotionally abused me for four years. His father tried to control what my father preached on and when my father said no, my ex’s father left the church after my ex dropped me like a hot rock. I know things about my ex that I could not tell anyone, but I am sure my ex still plays the victim card. Yes, I have forgiven my ex and I know I am a survivor of narcissitic abuse, but I wonder what kind of people belong to the Village Church. Does Matt Chandler give them permission to control their wives?
Which is a bit less, shall we say, “coarse” than what I referred to.
Is this the sign of a pastor who did not get sufficient training for the job he jumped into?
Yes
Divorce Minister,
Thanks for offering your insights. I suspect you will be proven correct. DM has a great blog about divorce, especially as it relates to the Christian church.
From your post: “how easily emotionally illicit relationships – i.e. emotional affairs–can develop even without our consciousness of them initially.”
Foreplay? (Of the emotional kind, clearing a path for … ?)
Hybels gave the impression that he was good at this, while seeking his A-types.
Mark Darling was another one of these experts, good at this, too.
I don’t get the whole scenario. Is he throwing his woman friend under the bus?
I have been in a work situation for 15 years with a group of men. I always used to joke with my husband that I was “having breakfast with the boys”. Two of the guys have since died and the remaining guy and I don’t meet anymore because of the talk and innuendo that may come .my situation was innocent. I love having guy friends and my husband is OK with it. I would really like to know more about this situation with Matt Chandler.
I love meeting with my guy friends. My husband is a writer and he frequently meet with women. Neither of us feel threatened by our friendships of the opposite sex.
I, too, was struck by the avoidance of any real ownership of sin.
He was “unguarded (ah, so he was the victim here; he was not prepared for the attack that came).
His “confession” also contained a more overt plea to be regarded as a victim. Maybe “it’s the pace I’ve been running” (poor heroic me), or the difficulty of the past 6, 7 years (poor baby, a true martyr). Don’t you feel sorry for me? Of course you do… and I’m counting on that for my comeback.
He was unwise…” there was a “familiarity” and “frequency”. There is some vague “unhealth” that nobody can seemingly put their finger on after months of knowing about this. He was also “disoriented” after being confronted by the friend of the woman he’d been chatting up.
He had an “inability to see” (This is more confession than he intends, I think. Jesus calls “inability to see” blindness. In Matt 23 the use of the word blind is associated with valuing power, with hypocrisy, with focusing on looking good and righteous on the outside and doing everything to be seen by other people while being unclean on the inside. And still taking the role of a guide for others. Jesus seems to regard blindness as evidence of deep sin not an excuse for unwise behavior.
Feeling “embarrassed, stupid, foolish?” Those are not words of repentance but of wounded pride , pride that is still resisting admitting sin.
Those words are appropriate for instances of human weakness or frailty. You can feel embarrassed because you misremembered the date of an appointment and missed it, or you could feel “stupid and dumb” because you failed a test that all your friends passed even though you studied, or you feel all three because you are aging and can no longer do things that used to be easy for you.
Feeling embarrassed is not the same as acknowledging guilt or feeling shame at one’s guilt. Feeling stupid or dumb is not the same as experiencing deep grief at realizing how you’ve sinned against God, and harmed your family and church and the woman you once regarded as a friend.
I think it’s worth noting that he actually did confess sin when he admitted to “coarse & foolish joking” actually is a sin according to Eph 5:3-5 which says there should be no “foolish talk” or “coarse jesting”. But before admitting it, he had already directed his audience to focus on the sins he did not do: (It says it wasn’t romantic or sexual.) It’s like a magician’s redirection. The audience will leave remembering that it “wasn’t sexual.” (I’m just taking him at his word here. More will come out if there is more.)
And whatever he did, the friend thought something was wrong enough to risk confronting a mega-pastor about it on her friend’s behalf. It’s hard to imagine that she took it upon herself to confront a mega-pastor with the sin of “course jesting” in isolation. I agree with Divorce Minister that the woman he was messaging likely interpreted his communication as indicating he had feelings for her and may have reciprocated them.
Importantly, how does he refer to the woman he once thought of as a friend to message with frequently and with familiarity? He calls her “this other woman.” His use of this phrase tends to give the game away. Use of the phrase “other woman” objectifies her and associates her with adulteresses and home wreckers. (Accusations of which he declares himself innocent.) He doesn’t even mention this child of God who he once regarded as a friend in the list of people he is supposedly “embarrassed” to have let down. Instead, her personhood has been reduced to something he is embarrassed *about.* If she did interpret his words as meaning he had feelings for her, he should feel deep grief at what happened to her, not embarrassment for himself.
(I have not listened to the whole tape. Did anyone pray for her? Or was all the care centered on Matt Chandler?)
It may or may not be significant, but I also note that he calls her “this” other woman. We usually use “this” when we are distinguishing one thing from another. Do you want this one or that one? Is using the word “this” a “tell” that there are others? I realize the congregation was told that the investigation found that these sinful communications were just with the one woman. But I do find it a curious way to phrase it if there is only one woman with whom he has crossed lines in some way.
Seems like an awful lot of words to say “I didn’t do anything wrong, but if I did it’s her fault.” Is another shoe about to drop?
You and millions of other people around the nation.
According to the NYT, TVC is not sharing the report “because they want to honor the request of the woman to not to be in the spotlight” not an exact quote but that is essentially what they reported.
I would think TVC could certainly redact any identifying information and still disclose what was going on and let people decide for themselves.
As it is, they leave so much room for speculation which, if they wanted to shut down, they could. But no, they have decided to keep people in the dark and let all the worse speculations run rampant.
Perhaps speculation is less damaging than the truth – but who knows?? They do themselves and their church a great diservice by not being more honest and forthcoming.
As it stands they have created a fertile environment where, to quote a different “reporting” organization, “inquiring minds want to know”. Well, those minds will inquire and speculate. IMO that seems to be a very foolish course of action.
Eyewitness,
I found that to be very insightful.
“Disoriented”. I bet he was. Probably more like a “deer in the headlights” and “oh crud, now what?” type of disoriented
LOL, rabid wolf, yep
Somebody help me out here.
What did Chandler do that was so egregious?
Strike up a rapport with some gal on social media, with no hint of actual sexual impropriety?
Really folks, I think we’ve reached a point in the course of human events, where we take ourselves way too seriously.
More interesting comments from twitter:
“The infidelity recovery community calls it trickle truth.” Sara Eggers @toastoz
from Mike the Therapist @sacwriter
“I have counseled well over 100 pastors who were disciplined or fired for sexual reasons. Here is an absolute rule I found: Whatever they admit to is the bare minimum of what has happened. They only admit to EXACTLY what they were caught doing. And to those who have DM’d me today to say some variation of “Well, isn’t it possible that in this case he may have only done what he said he did?” Sure it’s possible. But I have never ONCE seen this to be true. So the possibility is very slim. His salary is tied to purity!”
@tolson501 Replying to @sacwriter
“Mike, I have not counseled for that long, but I have noticed the EXACT same thing. It usually takes weeks, months, or years of deep work before the truth comes out. And, if the circle around that person is not seeking the truth as well, it never fully come out.”
Muff Potter,
Grooming.
Example:
Canadian Karen Walker @jlitke1
“I used to be a youth leader volunteer working underneath the youth pastor. He would often have illicit conversations with teens about sex under the guise of ‘teaching’.
Some of the conversations would be relayed back to the Sr. Pastor and EVERY.DAMN.TIME he would lie to the Sr. Pastor’s face saying, ‘I never said that.’ This was despite the fact I had witnessed and overheard him several times. There was never any accountability. One night on a long bus ride back from a conference (it was dark on the bus) he sat down beside a young 16-yo girl and started talking about how the way she dressed ‘affected him’ and she should be more mindful of how she presented herself or conducted herself. She came to me afterward and expressed how uncomfortable the situation made her. I tried to address it but I was told that since he was older and I was ‘just’ in my 30s he knew better than I did and he didn’t need me to question his actions. And it was never addressed.”
There’s got to be something more than what we’re being told. No one is put on a leave of absence like this unless something deeper was involved. TVC can’t take another hit like this, so they’ve got to get in front of it.
It should be noted that Chandler has been desperately pandering to “woke” elements in evangelicaldom by trying to invoke MLK and hire staff on the basis of race in what amounts to condescension. It seems that the harder someone tries to prove their “woke” credentials, the more likely they are trying to hide some sin.
There seems to be a David-esque quality to these types of situations.
A guy who is no longer on the frontlines, with too much power, money, and entitlement for his own good, and for the good of the kingdom. He wanders his palace in the middle of the night … with his wandering eye and the power of his position, down he goes into the abyss of access, ego, and desire.
The caveat is that David was a civil servant while this dude wears the title of a man of God, above reproach – salaried for purity. Oops.
Wait, I thought in the purity culture every interaction between men and women is sexual.
I wonder if MC was stalking/ grooming his friend with the frequency of messages and all. Maybe she was less okay with it than he says and he didn’t realize until her friend confronted him.
Dee – please check your email. There are some things going on that i didn’t feel comfortable posting publicly. Some of the content is in my replies to you on the previous post.
I’m not opposing you. There’s been stuff happening for some time now regarding family members and their recent deaths.
That recording… he sounds like he’s not mentally stable. Seriously. He’s enraged and attacking and cruel.
I wouldn’t want anything to do with someone lime him, *particularly* in eithrr a work or church setting. His anger… wow.
Hmmm, a bit of a one-way street. Seen this before with Sov Grace churches. These are your tithe dollars at work… Follow the money, does it lend itself to glory to the LORD Jesus Christ, as the true HEAD of the Church? In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses… Well, we heard MC’s witness. But, what about the woman who confronted MC. And, the woman in question. Those seem to be the 2nd and 3rd witness that was not “on stage.” Seriously, if you fail 1 Tim 3, and there is NO SIN, one way street! “And she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call his name “JESUS” for He shall save “His people” from their SINS.” (“Matt” 1:21) That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as LORD! You know, the ONE who died on Golgotha (the place of the skull, the HEAD of the Church).
Max, I notice you haven’t included “reformed” in your list of epithets. “Reformed” was what they used to call the soggy meat that came in packets (until people of religion complained).
No wonder he had to wade through rabid sheeps’ sins (helped by his extensive staff) for 7 years if he holds them to an even lower standard.
Its going straight to the secular media means God has evaded the dominionists’ ban and moved back into heaven! He has changed His line of sight to us but not His doctrines (actual ones I mean).
Ava Aaronson,
From MCs book mentioned in the previous post
“ For both men and women, but especially for men, our initial attraction may have little to do with the person’s character or competency… physical appearance is the first thing we notice, and it takes a while longer to get to know someone’s character…..There is nothing wrong with this process of being physically attracted to someone. It’s completely natural.”
“ Over and over, in fact, the Bible doesn’t just describe physical attraction between the sexes; it sanctions it.”
“ It is certainly true that the measure of a man’s character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out. Or character is, as Bill Hybels said, “who you are when no one’s looking.” Everyone has a public face and a private face.”
“ One of my fears in writing this book is that by pointing out the wisdom in the Song of Songs, many of us who are guilty of foolishness might feel condemned and lose heart.…. We read about one of the biggest relational disasters in the Bible in 2 Samuel 11, where King David saw Bathsheba bathing, was compelled by her beauty, and with no thought of the repercussions of his actions, sent for her…. That this kind of person could in the end be declared a man after God’s own heart is a testimony not to the greatness of David but to the greatness of God.”
“ When we want to become intentional about pursuing this attraction further, we begin to find ways to hang out with each other.”
“ Notice that Solomon didn’t respond by telling her he would text her later, only to forget, or inform her he was busy with the guys. Instead, he was playful and (appropriately) flirtatious, encouraging her to find him.”
So that makes everything all right? The Bible sanctions it, Bill Hybels offers words of wisdom, David was forgiven and he was way worse. The problem is that when you want to pursue the attraction , “you find ways” to hang out with each other. Thank goodness for DM!
I met Matt Chandler once. In a rather neutral setting. He was not very nice. Nothing he said would make me want to have him as my pastor.
I feel sorry for him on many levels.
But I would plead with anyone who attends TVC to find a better place.
Let’s get the facts straight… here’s the NYTimes quote: “In response to questions from The New York Times, the church said that the woman in the lobby had confronted Mr. Chandler in February, and that it had hired a boutique law firm, Castañeda and Heidelman, to conduct an investigation. The church declined to share a copy of the report, “because we want to honor the request of the woman Matt was messaging with not to be in the spotlight,” the church said in an email”… It seems that the leadership hired the law firm not the women involved. Also, this took place in February which isn’t a couple of months ago…weird indeed
Max,
You’re right. Even in this confession about “coarseness,” Matt used the word “crap” and also said that new people might be thinking “what the H.” He didn’t say hell, he may as well have.
In fairness, “unhealth” is semantically very close to “sickness”; perhaps this is a more transparent admission than it seems on the surface.
I started in to the preamble by Patterson, but got hung up at “let us rejoice and be glad.” Was that priming the group for the response that it actually provided?
Most seminary programs I am aware of would not train potential pastors in things like this or other practical areas. They have enough trouble fitting all their theology, preaching, and language classes into a manageable package of degree credits. The couple of real time practical classes I took were filled with arrogant young men who did not receive the teaching because “this would never happen in my church” or “this would never happen to me”.
One thing I found interesting about this was that the external investigation found that Chandler failed to be above reproach (a clearly stated NT qualification for elder) but the church leadership stated that nothing he did was at the level of disqualifying him from ministry.
This is another example of a church protecting their cash cow.
…And the cash cow (blinded by fame, power, and arrogance) trading truth for self deception.
This MC quote troubles me a bit. Is the chronology sound? Perhaps it would be better to write:
“That someone who earlier in his life had exhibited such integrity as to be regarded to be ‘a man after God’s own heart’ could stumble as profoundly as David did when tempted — and afterward suffer terrible and enduring consequences for himself and his family — ought to inspire in us a holy fear that this might happen to us; “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”
Chandler has said “I preach to men” and he condescendingly refers to female believers at TVC as “our girls.”
You can hear him say it beginning at 12:15 in his interview with John Piper on “Calvinism & Sexual Complementarity” … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEpVzHnUw0&t=7s
Yep, I would say that women ensnared in New Calvinism should be getting tired of the “beauty of complementarity” about now.
Oh no! The Ambien defense?!
“Then I threw the gold into the fire and out came “this” calf!” Pastor Aaron, the time his “bro” got mad and broke all 10 commandments at once.
“Is this the sign of a pastor who did not get sufficient training for the job he jumped into?”
In his interview about “going into the ministry” with John Piper, he mentions going from church janitor to youth minister without any ministry experience.
You can hear all about it beginning at 8:00 on the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qPyy2ycffY&t=2s
Pride/arrogance is the overriding characteristic of New Calvinist leaders. No one demonstrates that better than Matt Chandler.
I heard a NeoCal preacher in our community once say from the pulpit “This is one prayer you never have to pray: ‘Jesus, forgive me of my sins'” Humility, confession of sin, and repentance are not in the NeoCal toolkit. Their gospel is another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel at all.
I’m guessing that the version told onstage is a gigantic whitewash.
However, this church has also set up a system where people can lose everything over nothing.
We don’t know what happened, but please don’t take the official version at face value.
My next totally nonfiction best-seller will be called Solomon’s Burner Phone.
Oh dear. One would like to believe that the point of this pastor’s remark was that petitions for forgiveness of transgressions are most appropriately addressed to the Father, but I’m guessing that it wasn’t.
—
I would like to think that even if one doesn’t fear the consequences of sin for one’s own life and reputation and future fate (‘like David, I can still be considered “a man after God’s own heart” ‘), one would still fear the destruction that one’s sin can wreak in the lives of other people.
“I’m unwell; I need LoA to recover and heal”. Is there concern for the harm that was done to the other party, and to her relationships?
Maybe his inappropriate but totally non-sexual coarse jokes were along the lines of:
– “the complete idiots I have to work with”
– “the narcissistic zeros who think they can ask anything of me”
– “the total losers living in their mom’s basement writing blogs about *my* church”
It’s been known to happen…
If exactly the same messages had been exchanged by Mr. Chandler and another man, would it still have been “unhealth,” or what?
Is this “church discipline” or just a whitewash whose main purpose is to restore him as quickly as possible (without having to use the Robert-Morris-Restore-Anything machine, which is starting to ring a bit hollow by now)?
It remains to be seen, but I guess, our judgement will also depend on whether they will still pay him his full salary for a greatly reduced workload, won’t it?
After all, these YRR pastor types wrestle with their sermons for hours and days on end, as they’ve let us know. That’s why the can’t be bothered with doing all the real pastoring, like weeping with the afflicted, encouraging the discouraged, mourning with the mourning, visiting the sick…
OTOH, forget visiting the sick, they might have rabies …
🙂
Max,
I agree Max. There is plenty of smutty talk and coarseness in the intro to his book and scattered throughout the other chapters. Imo. I won’t repeat them here because it would go straight to moderation and I don’t expect anyone will want to pay to read them for themselves.
I am in total agreement with you. I know one pastor who needs a minimum of 30 hours just to research his sermon which he believes is the focal point of church life. Nothing about praying for the sick and hurting. Nothing about Scrioture. Ed Stetzer said he, as a pastor (I think the church failed), would not do funerals since he was too busy. These guys have hurt the church.
And since there was NO Tab A in Slot B, It Was Not Adultery. LOOPHOLE! LOOPHOLE! LOOOPHOLE!
“I did not know that woman in the Biblical sense.” — Douggie ESQUIRE of Vision Forum
He already said that one to the church and he didn’t get put on an LOA for that one. It must have been far worse.
Why am I thinking of Fidel Castro speeches?
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!!!!! QUESTIONING MINE ANOINTED IS AS THE SIN OF WITCHCRAFT!!!!!!!”
This is a feasible, but still inexcusable, scenario. How often do you think Chandler hears the word “No” in all his leadership roles?
The Propaganda Numbers – three point six Roentgens, not fifteen thousand.
SIN is Thee, NEVER MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
… because they feel as soporific and never-ending as some sermons?
Like your article states, I suspect this is a case of intimacy interrupted. He got too close emotionally to this other woman. Then he got called on it.
They are reticent to call it an “emotional affair” likely because that would or could be seen as disqualifying and the show must go on. It very clearly–even from the scant information provided–was an emotional affair.
Lowlandseer,
I would be grateful for a couple of examples. I will approve them. I am doing more reading and may not be finished with my thoughts on this weighty manner. I was hoping you might comment. What is your opinion of the YRR movement in general? Do you sense any weaknesses? Also, what did you think of my confession comments? What is confession like in your church?
Unhealth(TM)?
Is that anything like an Alcoholic always being Sick(TM)?
A question: what’s with the strange length of the average American sermon? Why are they so long?
I’ve never heard a good sermon (or any other speech) longer than 20 minutes, make that half an hour at most.
There’s this number by the Bavarian comedian Gerhart Polt, where he’s asked to make a speech. For days on end he tries to come up with some ideas for his speech, in vain. He even tries wine for inspiration – nothing. In the end, he says, “I did give that speech, but it lasted for more than half an hour, because I didn’t have anything to say.”
You brought back memories of my “Pastoral Ministry” class back in a SBC seminary. You are right in that most aspiring pastors don’t pay attention to what is taught, and to be fair, the course was a strain on one’s attention span. Too many, myself included, took it because it was required and prioritized it as such. The instructor was a lifelong pastor with the heart of a shepherd, but he was fighting a losing battle against the overt emphasis given to the megachurch/rockstar preachers brought in to speak at chapel.
I transfered to another seminary, Gordon Conwell, and they not only required ministry courses but also required practicums in ministry. Four semesters if I remember correctly. They were much better at preparing students to serve as a pastor rather than a CEO.
This has nothing to do with “wokeness” and speaking as someone outside of Evangelical church circles, whatever Chandler is preaching as “wokeness” is pretty puerile. Matt’s never going to get up and tell his mostly white community that as a group, they (I) have been the beneficiaries of generations of sin against people of color. If Chandler’s doing anything with “wokeness,” it’s pretty minimal and designed not to really change things or truly upset the people who are paying his salary.
No, let’s focus on the fact that Chandler and his elders decided that foolish talk and coarse jesting were the huge sin that they had to address by putting Chandler on a leave of absence. And this was SIX MONTHS after the woman confronted him in the lobby of the church. Again, this has nothing to do with wokeness, and everything to do with getting Chandler back in the saddle as quickly as possible.
I believe there are other shoes that will drop.
As my grandkids would say, “Excuses excuses excuses.”
Dee–I loved the Brief Order of Confession and Forgiveness you quoted, but it has me totally confused. It is word for word what we said and heard for many years in the ELCA. It is very different from the service in the hymnal at our LCMS. Have you switched? Maybe we just use different hymnals?
That is pastoral malpractice! Some of the best theology and ministry I have learned about conducting funerals is from the LCMS. In fact, I used an LCMS template for my funerals because of its dual emphasis on the hope of Christ and the suffering of the bereaved.
I’m so confused. It wasn’t sexual, or romantic… but the frequency of the texts was too much for a brother/sister relationship?
I am not ruling out the idea that this was some sort of emotional affair, that is being papered over. And I really don’t care to defend Matt Chandler… but for a devil’s advocate exercise, I’d like to submit my stream of thought.
I (female) have a living brother and sister. There are times I text my brother numerous times a day. How much is too much to text and call my brother, before it is inappropriate as a Christian woman? Same thing with my male cousins? My husband doesn’t seem to have any issues with my relationships with them – and he can at any time read my texts. And yes, topics can be crude.
What is the difference between a “Christian Sibling” and a “bio/adopted sibling?” What lines are drawn differently? Obviously they are, but where? Is it possible for two people of opposite sex to simply have a close friendship, that isn’t sexual?
There is something about this situation that is giving me flashbacks to college and the disgrace of the pastor’s daughter. She was hanging out a bit too much with the lead elder’s son. Both the pastor and the elder were of a courtship mindset, and the pastor’s daughter was “too bubbly” and therefore they wouldn’t give permission for these two college age individuals to date one another. Both were professing Christians, and as far as I could tell, this relationship had gone about as far as admitting they liked one another, and meeting up for ice cream every so often. Well, apparently, this led to “sneaking out” and then that led to the two of them being called before the church and undergoing church discipline for an “inappropriate relationship” which I think was really a “non-parent selected relationship.” Somehow, the pastor’s daughter got blamed for the whole thing, because she was of course, “too bubbly” and had led the Elder’s son astray. It was a mess, and I never could figure out what exactly the two college students had done wrong. Fast forward a few years, and the Elder’s son gets married to a young woman of his father’s choosing, and the “disgraced pastor’s daughter” ends up having a baby with a guy who may or may not have taken serious advantage of her (consent is questionable). So the Elder felt justified in his rejection of her for his son… but, I’ve never been so sure that the two fathers weren’t the problem.
All this to say… is it possible that Matt Chandler, in this instance, hasn’t done anything wrong and instead we are dealing with a hyper judgmental group of people? The involvement of the lawyers would seem to imply otherwise, but I can’t get past that I have personally seen churches over-react to situations that were not a problem, giving vague accusations, and then under-react to situations that were very grave. I get that Matt is married, and this is clearly not a direct comparison to my story… but there is a part of me that is wondering what in the world could be leading to such a vague “they dm’d too frequently and too friendly but otherwise, not inappropriate” accusation. I’m actually finding the easiest part of this story to believe is the part where Matt explains that he isn’t really sure what he did “wrongish,” and therefore he is being removed from teaching until he gets with the program.
There is absolutely something fishy here… But we really need more information to determine if this is everyone under-reacting, or possibly something else. Like a group over-reacting after the whole SBC revelation, because they really do not understand the difference between friendly conversation and sexual harassment?
Again this is all just a devil’s advocate exercise. It would not surprise me in the slightest if it was a highly inappropriate relationship they are hiding.
Rod Rosenbladt used to say (on the subject of long sermons) that no one gets saved after 25 minutes.
Not surprising. He hung out with Mark Driscoll, eventually assuming Acts 29 leadership after Driscoll smutty talked and misbehaved his way out of a job.
One time our pastor stood up and said, “Today’s lesson is the familiar story of Jonah. I worked hard to write something new, because I knew our beloved Darla would be here today as always. She will speak to me afterward if I repeat anything I’ve said in the past fifteen years.” 🙂
When I read this story to my husband last night, that was what he guessed too. Basically, if it wasn’t sexual or romantic in nature, either this church is flipping out about an intense conversation about the local sports team, or, MC was kvetching to an inappropriate person and now the Elders are embarrassed.
Burwell Stark,
I’m currently attending an ELCA church. The very denomination I was taught was too liberal to actually be a church. I have been very impressed with now 3 different lead pastors (one an interim) and the children’s minister who all clearly have more training in counseling, and in ministry than any other church I have been at. Not only did they clearly get it at seminary, but they also clearly have continued their education afterwards.
Read that one-liner again. What he’s saying is the only purpose of a sermon is to Get Them Saved. Altar Call Salvation only, not teaching, not commentary, not interpretation, not cautions. Get more notches on your Bible for a bigger brighter Crown of Glory at the Bema. All initial boost, no sustainer.
I would like to point out that Christians can have a REAL loose definition of “smutty talk”.
I still can’t get over that the confrontation was in February and the LOA is starting six months later. There is more to this than meets the eye. Has anyone looked to see where Chandler has spoken in the last six months, or will be speaking through the end of the year?
The Cash Cow…
The Cash Cow…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r6LV02QscU
Burwell Stark,
That is really neat to hear. Thank you.
Remember the Christianese trope of Immediate Total Transformation/Sanctification, written about extensively by Christian Monist. How the instant you are Saved you become a New Creature, Totally Sanctified, Utterly Spiritual. The same reason why a guy walks the aisle, says, the words, and two weeks later he’s a Moses Model Pastor/Dictator of a Calvary Chapel clone. This does not end well.
https://baptistnews.com/article/former-bellevue-youth-pastor-credibly-accused-of-abusing-adolescents-at-baptist-church-in-arkansas/#.Yw4zQcpOmhA
It just keeps getting better. This guy also worked at Bellevue (Steve Gaines).
I wonder if this guy, as well as Chandler, would have made the news if the decades of antics SBC hadn’t been exposed.
Oh god no, I’m one of the last people who’d participate in a lynching!
That’s why I spoke up for Chandler.
I don’t do social media, so I guess I don’t know all the ins and outs of that platform.
Muff, Christians have been taking themselves WAY Too Seriously as far back as I can remember.
Perhaps, but the LCMS sermon is a distinct presentation of Law and Gospel. The sermon is complimentary to the eucharist, a reminder of why Christ died for you. The law convicts, the gospel comforts, and Christ is present in the proclamation and the sacrament. There is no “altar call” and salvation is more than conversion.
@dee could elaborate further on this point.
Perhaps, MC and elders inc have not read Acts 29: 1. You know, where Clintus Eastwoodious says to him: “A man has got to know his limitations!” This is where the pope becomes the poop. Time for a courtesy flush… Follow the money. Which will be evidence of sin. He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful in that which is much. Or, is that too simple? Is the simplicity in Christ too boring? So, how do you abide? Psalm 91:1-2 gives the answer, you dwell! No more shopping…
Mighty ManaGAWD always outranks a mere Woman.
Haven’t you heard of Biblical Manhood(TM) and Womanhood(TM)?
Well said. It is a “strange” gospel to be sure.
Because the speculations often get more X-treme (and more JUICY!) than the reality being covered up.
Gus,
I suspect those types of comments would be unlikely to motivate the woman’s friend to approach him.
Dee, how dare you cast nasturtiums on Chandler’s disinhealthification which he received whilst working too hard for the Lord, his running pace being too fast or furious or whatever?
Can’t you see his confessiongratulations means that nothing else counts? His sins were crushed by the appplause of his congregation & now he gets to take a good Leave of Absolution which will leave him perfectly fit for another 100 years of service.
Muff Potter,
Muff,
Taken “by itself”, with no other context, I agree with you….
But, given the public “history” of TVC, and Matt C., this whole thing is REALLY WEIRD on so many levels…
And yes, CHRISTAIN LEADERS taken themselves WAY TO SERIOUSLY…..
Muff Potter,
A lot of the official version comes from Chandler, though.
This reminds me of the old Dear Abby punishment, “Forty lashes with a wet noodle.” The elders pretend to hit Chandler, and Chandler pretends to cry. Check out his emotional display, starting around 22:05.
Insert “you’re not David!” joke here.
I wonder the same, cuz’ when ya’ use the way-back machine (like rocky & bullwinkle), it was only those “awful catholics” who did such antics.
Nowhere did I say that he was sincere. As I said, it was pandering. It’s an appeasement. It’s a way of getting the people with the pitchforks away from them much in the same way corporations do. But he wants the credit for looking woke. As many people do, he uses moralism – like some pastors do with railing against abortion, homosexuality, or whatever “heresy” is popular – as a way of shielding himself from further criticism.
In a way, it sometimes works. Never mind that Russell Moore is still a Calvinist and joined an Acts 29 church after leaving the SBC, he’s still heralded by many people – including many commenters here – as a hero just because he jumped like a rat from the sinking ship that was the SBC and stated the obvious regarding sexual abuse.
“As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I, therefore, declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
This I do declare I would find to be completely out of order and a religious based bunch of garbage. I would walk out and leave and never return at this point after hearing this. Why? Because this is not what the scriptures say. Only God has this authority. Man does not. It is bad practice and bad theology. It is exactly the kind of problem that is highlighted over and over here again. Men claiming they have authority that they do not.
What do the scriptures say? They say that God will only forgive us if we forgive others. Is this included in this worthless religious practice? Do people who walk out thinking they are forgiven because the priest has the authority even though they are holding onto unforgiveness towards someone else? In these cases they are simply not forgiven which is a huge problem.
They also say to confess your sins to one another, NOT A PRIEST! Then pray for forgiveness. This is practiced, as far as I know, about nowhere. It never says to silently confess your sins during a service. Confession is good, but likely more genuine if you do this during your own private prayer time on a daily, not weekly basis. There is place in group meetings to acknowledge our state and need for humility, but that humility has to be practiced throughout the week or else it is just religious posing and hypocrisy.
I have found that when I was in a small group or one on one with a safe, humble believer that the humility of such confession was helpful to me. But such religious traditions that negate the actual words of Jesus Christ drives me absolutely nuts. Give me Christianity without all of the traditions of men that contradict what is written please! And yes, I am a stickler for details especially when they regard something so very basic in the foundations of the Christian faith.
I have wondered………. was he grooming her???
ES,
As someone who grew up in the LCA (one of the precursors to the ELCA), i completely agree on the training that aspiring students of pastoral ministry in the ELCA get and have historically gotten in seminary and beyond.
But… are these “lead pastors” actually being referred to in that way? I’m from PA, and, like most Lutherans in this state, am German. There seems to be a kind of protocol used here that might not be used in other geographical areas, partly b/c PA was where German Lutheran immigrants washed up, back in the 18th c.
Here, the norm has always been to refer to someone as “pastor,” and if another ordained minister is on staff, the s/he is the “assistant pastor.” I think this is a more accurate description of the job, and a title that’s literally about helping/sharing actual pastoral work, rather than a hierarchical designation. When i was a kid, the assistant pastor we had was addressed as “Pastor [surname],” which was the custom in LCA churches, anyway. These folks were normally referred to as Rev. [surname] in the local newspaper, but for members of our congregation + fellow Lutherans, the title was always Pastor + their surname.
I really, really hope that this hierarchical ranking of people in ministry hasn’t slipped into ELCA thinking. It might seem silly to protest about words, but “lead pastor’ = where that person is in the hierarchy in a way that pastor/assistant pastor doesn’t.
As to MC, i have a feeling that this incident is the proverbial tip of the iceberg, and that they’re covering up a lot. What all that is, i have no idea, but it reminds me so much of the rhetoric used during political scandals, whether financial otr otherwise.
These guys seem to live in a contemporary equivalent of that smoke-filled room where wheeling and dealing occurs.
“Unhealth”. Ha!
I say that they (MC included) have a “heart” problem, in the biblical sense.
So why does said woman not wanna’ be in the “spotlight”?
If she can level veiled charges at Chandler, she should also be required to own them, right?
What am I missing?
No, they are not. It’s my wording as a PCA transplant that is still figuring out my way around a Lutheran church, and I hadn’t really caught on to what you just described. I appreciate your clarification. It is a small church with only one Pastor and a Children’s ministry leader who is seminary trained. At one point we also had a seminarian who was a member of the congregation and not on staff.
We are still figuring out what exactly the church polity is. We are also trying to figure out what the difference between describing the Bible as the “Norm” and “Inspired” is. It’s different. But growing up, I was taught that the ELCA had essentially abandoned the Bible completely, and 5 years in, I now know that is not the case at all.
MasterSanders,
Trying to piece this together:
“he failed to meet the 1 Timothy standard for elders of being “above reproach” in this instance”
Yet:
“the elders believe this did not rise to the level of disqualification”
How does not meeting the biblical standard not rise to the level of disqualification? Where is the Scriptural justification for that?
Then:
“the best course of action would be for him to take a leave of absence from teaching and preaching at The Village Church”
Yet, he was allowed to get up at the pulpit and said whatever it is that he said on Sunday? Is it wise or biblical to have someone being sent on a leave of absence connected with the aforementioned failed standard have what arguably may have amounted to a bon voyage pulpit time? Is it wise or biblical to have that same person talk — with an apparent dearth of specifics — about what was done, all while using the position and pulpit to do so before the flock?
Even for those buying into the concept that a passage of time may correspond with overseer restoration etc., how was it wise or biblical for someone determined to be in the state of “unhealth” (sic) to speak in such a setting, in a manner as to potentially risk “unhealth” of the speaker in the hearers given his reported state?
Then:
“The timeline for his return will be dictated by the elders’ expectations for his development”
Will this include clear and extensive communications as to how someone they adjudged as failing “to meet the 1 Timothy standard for elders of being “above reproach” in this instance” will somehow be meeting sufficient expectations biblically? Will they explain that in detail as far as the doctrinal underpinnings for somebody entrusted to that position not merely being restored to fellowship but to “overseer“ status? In the modern context, that often involves considerable financial remuneration, including what some might see as perks and the ability to shape one’s duties and schedule (and potentially in some cases, the same for friends and family).
Will they explain how the follow threshold will also be met connected with a leave of absence: 1 Timothy 3:7 — “And it behooves him also to have a good testimony from those outside, so that he might not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil”? Are they likely to provide measurables on that one, especially given whatever standards that may have been applied to winsomely-sheared sheep before?
Will they cover the “blameless part“ from Titus 1:7-9 as far as what this leave of absence will achieve?
“if anyone is blameless, the husband of one wife, having believing children, not under accusation of debauchery, or insubordinate. For it behooves the overseer to be blameless, as God’s steward; not self-willed, not quick tempered, not given to wine, not a striker, not greedy of base gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined; holding to the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to convict those contradicting it.”
Or could it be like in so many situations, might it largely be a matter of priorities, perhaps such as keeping the wheels turning, getting past some news cycles, being able to say that something was achieved in a time of reflection, and urging everyone to move on?
And as with many situations, will not only the details not be readily available, but will there be no attempt of exegesis where somebody – anybody – in leadership will attempt to show how those called to be “blameless”, “above reproach”, and having a “good testimony from those outside” can “fall into reproach and the snare of the devil” yet still be restored to that church “overseer“ position and everything that goes with it?
Yeah, that definition is simultaneously ridiculously restrictive and also ridiculously out of touch. For instance, we tend to think the Commandment “Thou Shalt not take the Lord’s name in Vain” is obeyed simply when we avoid saying OMG. But I strongly suspect that what that commandment is really against is claiming God said something or is going to do something that God didn’t say or isn’t going to do, or swearing on God’s name while you intentionally lie. That is not the same as saying OMG when you find out that Joe Schmoe fell down the stairs and broke both legs, and is now in a half body cast, and will be for the next six months… please bring meals!
The only difference between Holier-than-Thou and More-Woke-than-Thou is the Semantics and the object of worship. The attitude, baggage, and side effects are the same.
Has anyone wondered if the delay from February until now is due to efforts to reach the woman and make a mutual deal about non disparagement?
Now that’s wrapped up with a binding agreement, Chandler can come forward with no chance that additional facts or a different narrative might emerge.
That is exactly the JEWISH interpretation of the Commandment – Doing Evil and claiming God’s Sanction (if not Direct Orders) to justify it.
Convenient how it has been defined to mean cussing and ONLY cussing, Eh, My Dear Wormwood?
Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of The Enemy’s altar!
P.S. Nine times out of ten, cusswords are just words associated with STRONG emotion, that blast out from a strong emotional state. Christianese often uses praise-phrases in the same way; the only difference is the words used are Spiritually Acceptable.
I’m with you on this. And I strongly suspect that this situation is either:
1) He does meet the level for disqualification and they cannot/refuse to see or admit that.
2) He doesn’t meet the level for disqualification and this is some other kind of power struggle, that isn’t ultimately related to whatever he is doing a LOA for. I’ve seen this go down before in Elder led churches where certain Elders actually have more power than the pastor (technically they are supposed to) and a weird sort of coup happens where they use a forced LOA to either force the Pastor to see who is boss, or force the Pastor out.
I am really not trying to defend MC here. I don’t like him, I see issues with him. But funny thing about guys like him: they tend to attract like individuals, which works great, until it doesn’t. That doesn’t make him likable. It doesn’t mean I think he has any business preaching. It just means that I wouldn’t be surprised if the church he leads has more people like him, and that ultimately back-fired on him. I also wouldn’t be surprised if all the leaders are lying to protect him.
By “binding agreement”, do you mean a Total NDA Gag Order backed up by the best lawyers Chandler’s Church can buy, with or without attached Hush Money?
dee,
I should preface this by saying that I prefer old paths and old signposts and that is why I spend so much time reading and quoting the Reformers and Puritans and that what I find crass might not appear so to others. But here goes!
“ I’m not trying to be crass here, but when God shaped the man, he gave the man a penis. It wasn’t the Devil who did that. God didn’t mold most of the man and then let Satan add his own touch. Neither did Satan sneak in and alter God’s good creation. No, for whatever power the Devil has, he is still not a creator; he just perverts and twists God’s good designs. God put the penis on the man, and he put the testicles on the man, and he filled those testicles with sperm. He created all tissue—some that would expand, some that would secrete; he filled the man with testosterone that would drive much of his life. From the beginning, this was God’s idea. Then he sent the man out filled with testosterone to walk through all creation and name the animals, to exercise God-given authority.”
“ I want to say it again: God’s the one who created and wired this whole thing. In Genesis 2, sin hadn’t even entered the world yet, and God said it wasn’t good for Adam to be alone. So he knocked him out, pulled out a rib, and shaped the woman. And as he shaped the woman differently, he gave her larger breasts, rounder hips, and a vagina. He filled the woman with a different hormone, estrogen. The woman’s body was not the Devil’s idea; it was all God’s doing.”
A bit of patriarchy.
“ He named her woman, which from the Hebrew essentially means “out of me” or “mine.” How profound is that? After he named all the animals, he sang the first love song the moment he laid eyes on Eve. He sang, “Mine.”
“ Women, can you wrap your minds around a relationship built on clarity and trust, all for your joy and God’s glory? No broken hearts, no mind games, no toying with your emotions. Just serving the Lord with a man who delights in God all the more because God gave him you.”
“ And then it happens: Somewhere between fifth and ninth grades, depending on a variety of factors affecting development and awareness, what I like to call the “Day of Epiphany” occurs. Up until this moment, a child has been largely indifferent to the opposite sex or even thought they were “gross.” But on the Day of Epiphany, something changes. Do you remember that day? You woke up that morning for school, got dressed, put on your shoes, slung your backpack over your shoulder, saw your friends, and then as you were walking toward your crew, you saw him or her, and all of a sudden he or she wasn’t gross anymore. The indifference and repulsion had vanished. A particular member of the opposite sex caught your eye in a suddenly different way, and, well … you kind of wanted one.”
Trying to square a circle.
“ Over and over, in fact, the Bible doesn’t just describe physical attraction between the sexes; it sanctions it.”
“ God’s design for romance is more than physical attraction, but it’s not less than that. Nor is it even something we are advised to outgrow.”
“ In the Bible we see a reflection of a pervasive cultural recognition: it is very often the more physically attractive who prove to be more spiritually deceptive. We can be easily baited by our attractions down the wrong paths.”
“ We’ve all been attracted to someone before. We know what it is like to have that initial captivation, to find somebody pleasing to see and to be around. When we want to become intentional about pursuing this attraction further, we begin to find ways to hang out with each other. We watch how the other person lives his or her life. Most of us, if we are thinking wisely, will not be too quick to throw our hearts out there.”
Has he taken his own advice?
“ quick confession: I have been with my wife, Lauren, for seventeen years. We dated for a year, courted for six months, were engaged for another six months, and have been married for fifteen years. Unfortunately, Lauren and I didn’t follow quite a bit of what we’re about to walk through in this book. You might think this makes me a hypocrite, that what I wrote isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. But I would argue that this hard-learned reality actually makes me more confident in what I am writing. We have personally experienced some of the heartbreak, confusion, and frustration that result from going with the flow of modern relational dynamics. I am aware of the multiple ways I failed”
“ Notice that Solomon didn’t respond by telling her he would text her later, only to forget, or inform her he was busy with the guys. Instead, he was playful and (appropriately) flirtatious, encouraging her to find him.”
“ It’s never okay to make a woman feel unsafe. It’s never okay to pressure a woman, to make a situation so uncomfortable that she has to avoid you.”
“ Most of us are pretty clear that forcing ourselves on someone, even if just emotionally, is wrong. But too often we become so wrapped up in our emotions and desire for romantic fulfillment that we go beyond where our hearts are meant to and therefore sometimes take our bodies where they ought not go.”
YRR?
“ Ideals for men have vacillated back and forth ever since, as the eighties and nineties gave us the sensitive grunge rockers and the sex-hungry party boys. From the beginning of the twenty-first century onward, we have seen the rise of “metrosexuals,” the protohipster males, and now we seem to be witnessing a revival of the swaggering alpha males with their beers and beards. Is it any surprise that in the dizzying lust of the broken male perspective toward women we wouldn’t become confused about what it means to be a man?”
NeoCalvinism handed YRR authority, status and a captive, seeking generation who instead of finding a robe of righteousness, were handed a plaid shirt and a beaker of coffee.
Confession of sin
Traditionally in Presbyterian churches, in line with the Directory for the Public Worship of God, “ Of Public Prayer before the Sermon” , “the minister who is to preach, is to endeavour to get his own and his hearers hearts to be rightly affected with their sins, that they, may all mourn in sense thereof before the Lord, and hunger and thirst after the grace of God in Jesus Christ, by proceeding to a more full confession of sin, with shame and holy confusion of face, and to call upon the Lord to this effect:….”
As for me I find myself mourning and confessing my sin many times during the day and night.
Well, yes. And funny how cursing somehow became equated with murder, adultery, lying or stealing, all of which can have devastating consequences. It doesn’t really track. But it does serve as a useful way to let people off the hook for lying about God if it suits their purposes.
For instance: John Piper can claim that a natural disaster is God’s judgement for our sin as a nation… without thinking seriously about how if he’s wrong, he just broke that commandment! And meanwhile, we have a church society that cannot call that for what it is either, which means he really isn’t held responsible. I think Pastor’s would be very circumspect in their proclamations if we hadn’t reduced that commandment to cursing.
But for all I know, this could be a direct result of the evolution of the English language that made synonyms out of cussing, cursing and swearing. I would think that cursing God’s name, and falsely swearing in God’s name are both violations of that commandment… but cussing?
Oh, that is an interesting thought.
I think the woman mentioned is the one that Chandler was talking to, rather than the friend who made the accusations.
And as Oracle at Delphi has pointed out: it’s possible that the woman was convinced by lawyers that she wants her privacy because the church doesn’t want her side of the story coming out, so they have a NDA around this situation. It may not be her choice, it may actually be the church’s machinations and claiming she wants to avoid the spotlight is a convenient way to make this go away.
My Lutheran church sometimes uses the one Dee quoted. There is another one used where we confess we deserve God temporal and eternal punishment. Sin kills and destroys.
If there is no sin, we really don’t need a Savior. Maybe that’s why these megachurches only do communion 4 times a Year.
I think this is the central concern, and is connected with the ninth commandment, “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor“. I suspect that that one is concerned primarily with avoiding unjust outcomes in legal proceedings. That’s not to legitimize falsehood-telling in other contexts, but to note YHWH’s concern for justice.
No, its definitely because doing communion in a mega church is mega expensive. 😛
The law firm hired to investigate by TVC
Castañeda Heidelman – A boutique law firm with a national presence focused on litigation, investigations, employment, regulatory compliance, and intellectual property/data privacy.
The firm consists exclusively of highly experienced attorneys from top-tier backgrounds including AmLaw 100 firm practice, in-house legal departments, and the Department of Justice. “
Fun fact: Not all churches have the same numbering on the “10” commandments.
In the Roman Catholic church, ELCA and other groups, “Thou shalt have no other Gods besides me” and “Thou shalt not make any graven images” is one commandment. And “Thou Shalt not Covet” gets broken into: “Thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife” and “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors things.”
Making “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord your God in Vain” is either the 2nd or the 3rd commandment, and “Thou shalt not bear false witness” as either the 8th or the 9th.
I suspect that this is related to the use of iconography in some churches but not others.
http://lonelypilgrim.com/2013/10/09/st-augustine-on-how-to-divide-the-ten-commandments-did-catholics-change-the-ten-commandments/
Endurance. If you were truly spiritual you would WANT your sermons to be as long as possible with as many points as possible. Under an hour is for spiritual wimps. The Puritans went to church ALL DAY LONG!!!!! Don’t you know that the Reformation changed the focus of the liturgy from the Eucharist to the preaching and exposition of God’s word???? The preaching is what it is all about, and therefore that should be longer than all the other parts combined.
You think I am joking, but this is basically what I was told as a kid going to a church with really super long sermons by even American standards. We were taught to be proud at how long the sermons were. You see it made us better Christians than those people who only had 1/2 hour sermons.
My particular church also had discussion in lieu of Sunday School. If you could write your name, you were expected to take notes to the best of your ability and be prepared to discuss those notes and the sermon in your age group “Sunday School” class after the sermon. This tradition was extra special to my church and one other sister church. It went away once all the kids raised in it got old enough to vote with our feet.
ES,
I think that George Orwell wrote about a place similar to what you’ve described.
Come to think about it, Mao Tse Tung used to run old China like that too.
Nah, they wrestle with which ones to buy online. They jump out of bed each morning, tune to Twitter, and feed on Piper Points, Mohler Moments, and Dever Drivel. Few of the NeoCals have any spiritual minds of their own, they borrow from each other, they are pulpit parrots.
“I am against the prophets, says the Lord, who steal my words from each other” (Jeremiah 23:30)
Crying without tears … every celebrity pulpiteer knows how to do that … it gets the audience on your side … heck, if you do a good job at it, you will get a standing ovation when you tell them you really messed up.
Oh Lord, I hope TVC doesn’t drag David into this mess. David was in the military, not the ministry!
I read this too while doing a further look see elsewhere.
But still, a snitch is a snitch because they live to snitch.
And high controlling totalitarian environments like Chandler’s church, are a snitches paradise.
A strong possibility that there’s more to this story, IMO. Also, it’s quite possible that it took them since February to come up with just the right word … “unhealth”. Now all the TVC members can pray “Jesus, forgive me of my unhealth” without ever confessing sin … since the pastor did.
Don’t forget that the New Calvinists took over the SBC by stealth and deception … it’s in their DNA.
So, how much for the lawyers? Any non-disclosure expenses? Prov 23:23! Is it the elders job to hide the truth? Is it the congregation’s job to make sure they are not being prep’d for a round of applause, before knowing the facts. Where is your donation money going and to WHO for what purpose? And, being ENABLERS of this type of Bushwa? Well, there is nothing new under the sun, if you forsake the only begotten Son of God and Son of Man. Does history really repeat itself? And, lastly, how is this ALL the TRUTH AS IT IS IN JESUS???
When the church fails to be a church, should the government step in to do a “cavity search AUDIT (you know, cradle to grave, womb to tomb, crib to crypt), and remove tax exemption status, etc.? And, bring criminals to justice (Rom 13)? Hmmmm…what is defrauding exactly?
LOL – and to think how upset these people would be at being compared to a communist leader!
Amy Smith posted on FB today about how Chandler hit on his future wife as a camp pastor – when she was a high school student. There’s a video of his wife talking about it.
https://www.facebook.com/amysmithwatchkeep
If you mean the Narcissistic Zero Rant, Numo, I mostly agree. I would call that abusive.
The video of the sermon and the revelations by Josh Patterson and Matt Chandler doesn’t work on this machine, but I found a 16-minute clip over at July Roys’ blog. Chandler does sound contrite, self-deprecating, apologetic, embarrassed, yada-yada, to some degree, but he also does some blame-shifting. And at first he seemed surprised by people’s reactions. As in, “Moi???”
As a psychological reference, I give you…George Costanza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB62oaOeqR0
When I saw the title of this post, my FIRST thought was ‘oh no, the brain tumor has recurred’ . . .
but then, I also began to wonder how MC’s recent behaviors might have come out of ‘changes’ resulting from treatment of the original tumor in the last decade (?)
People with neurologically-affected brain tumors change behaviors – it happened to my husband before his death. We knew about his lung cancer which had been sucessfully treated, and also about the prostate cancer, also sucessfully treated,
HOWEVER, less than two years before his death, there were changes in his behavior that were noted and subsequently monitored and he saw a psychologist for a time, but then the ‘tremors’ in his hand got worse and he was sent to a neurologist who said ‘it’s not Parkinsons; if it gets worse, come back in a year’s time’;
but then, in less than a year, he came to me and had trouble speaking – I thought it was a stroke and called 911 and he was taken to the ER where he coded twice and went through scans and an MRI –
the results? horrible news: a brain tumor around the area of the ‘brain stem’ affecting his breathing and heart rate –
he died within a week of the diagnosis and I had wondered how LONG had that tumor been growing and HOW had it affected his behaviors over the last portion of his life???
So when I hear MC is doing stupid stuff, I do get it that he is a part of something that does not hold itself accountable and treats victims of abuse poorly at times, yes;
but then I wonder . . . how’s his physical health? Of course, he is regularly monitored for a recurrence of the cancer,
but still, one wonders, when behavior goes awry – what triggered this other than ego and self-importance, etc. etc. etc. in the neo-Calvinist world?
is MC’s ‘unhealth’ excuse really valid – is there a possibility that the tumor has returned?
(?)
Oracle at Delphi,
A non-disparagement and a few dollars to make her feel better about the inconvenience, perhaps.
ES,
Same with us LCMSers.
That one really touches me.
Strange, I can find no reference in the New Testament of church congregations giving their pastor a standing ovation when he stood before them and confessed sin. It must be there somewhere in the sacred text, I just can’t find it.
TVC, like so many 21st century churches, has a stage where pastors perform weekly and weakly before an audience. It’s one of the greatest shows on earth! Applause is nothing new at TVC … the spectators clap frequently for their entertaining lead pastor, they laugh, they cheer “We love you, man”. Celebrity Christians receive accolades and ovations all the time; it’s just the way it is these days.
Meanwhile, when these things happen in the real Church, a Godly sorrow fills the house which leads to repentance. Both pulpit and pew cry out to God in humility to forgive and change them. But, I suppose, New Calvinism and their new reformation has outgrown the need for such penitence … so they applaud rather than grieve “unhealth” in the camp.
When will this madness end?
Lowlandseer,
Thank you for the info!
Lowlandseer,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I actually laughed out loud at this:
dee,
Whoops
NeoCalvinism handed YRR authority, status and a captive, seeking generation who instead of finding a robe of righteousness, were handed a plaid shirt and a beaker of coffee.
ES,
ES, many thanks for the clarification – part of my query comes from the fact that there are very real regional differences per the ELCA. I’ve come across a bunch related to churches in Western states, on the Pacific Coast, etc. Some of that is likely related to the fact that a great many of those churches came from the ALC (the American Lutheran Church, another of the synods that became part of the ELCA), and also that many of these congregations were started by Scandinavian immigrants, similar to the Lake Woebegone Lutheran parish that was often a part of Garrison Keillor’s monologues on “A Prairie Home Companion.”
Unlike Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians and English and Scottish Catholics, the Lutheran immigrants to this country were – regardless of the synod they belonged to – not united by a common language. The different Lutheran churches and synods weren’t unlike heavily ethnic Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox parishes in that respect, back in the 19th-mid 20th c., especially in areas where many immigrants had settled. I mean, there are Slovenian and Slovakian-descended Lutherans in the US, and probably other folks from countries that were part of the Soviet Bloc at one time, the Baltic states, etc. So there used to be a mess of small synods that formed around immigrant communities, from Finns, Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians to Estonians and on and on.
Out of the German Lutherans in this country (descended from Germans), there’s the PA crew, who came mostly in the 1700s and are ELCA now. Most of the Missouri Synod has come from a 19th c. church/state to-do in what is now Germany, especially over the state wanting Lutherans to accept certain doctrines from the Reformed churches. Culturally, i probably have a lot in common with many LCMS folks, but doctrinally, i don’t, depending on what’s under discussion. (I say this even though i attended an LCMS church in Bethesda, MD for several years when i was in grad school – they knew i was ELCA and that didn’t bother anyone, even when it was time for communion. The closer you get to their mothership, in St. Louis, the more intense people get about certain things, one being that non-LCMS Lutherans aren’t permitted to take communion in LCMS churches.)
The ELCA is probably the most unified body of Lutherans in the US, since it was a melding of a number of different and, in some cases, somewhat disparate synos. (IIRC, one was a very small Finnish synod from the Upper Midwest.)
But please don’t take what I’m saying at face value – I’m in my mid-60s. Many things *have* changed since i was younger, and I’m far from being an active member of any church, Lutheran or otherwise, so what I’m saying might be fairly dates in some respects.
I guess it’s a bit like accents: we’ve still got a bunch of different varieties in the US, even with mass media having done its part to try and impose a certain dull sameness to the way people all over the country speak.
Sadly, a whole lot of ELCA seminaries have been shut down permanently over the past decade or so. We no longer have any in PA, which is ironic, given that one of the 1st Lutheran congregations in what’s now the US was established in Philadelphia in the early-mid 1700s. (It’s been ages since i read anything about this and I’d have to look up some info. to say for sure, especially since there was a Swedish colony in what’s now northern Delaware early on, and they might well be ahead of the game per the 1st Lutheran congregation in what’s now the US. After all, it’s not far from there to Philly.)
ES,
ES, I’ve had a fair number of evangelicals insist to me that the ELCA is straight out of the badnparts of Revelations.
Equally, I’ve spoken with evangelicals who are confused as to why our synod’s name starts with “evangelical,” as to them, that refers to lowercase- evangelicalism, not to the Gospel, period.
There’s that old joke about the US and the UK being divided by a common language, but my hunch is that our “common language” is actually as divisive, if not more so, in the US itself than per this country and any part of the UK. Which shows up in all sorts of ways, like the shock many of us who aren’t from New England might get if we order a milkshake in a New England state. Dee can correct me if I’m off here, but i believe the standard term for an actual milkshake up that way is frappe. (I was duly warned when on my 1st trip to New England, back when i was in my teens.) 🙂
Lowlandseer,
Lowlandseer, he sounds like a 6th grade kid. Not “coarse” so much as *very* juvenile, puerile, lacking in emotional maturity – not to mention awfully superficial.
It makes my stomach turn, but not from disgust at his “coarse” statejents. More lime, “Oh no, not *that* again,”
Also, is it just me, or does it round like MC and a lot of these other guys have forgotten everything they’ve ever learned in HS and college biology classes? They’d probably have a collective meltdown if anyone told them “Hey, I’m intersex” and went on to explain the exact biological condition that means that they are. (It’s almost too broad a category, given that it covers a whole slew of different, and very real, conditions…)
… and an ESV bible
Yikes! I didn’t proofread.
But you longtime commenters know that I’m pretty bad when it comes to typos. 🙂
ES,
Well, they’re counted differently b/c they’re literally a bit differently stated inn2 different parts of the Torah. I’ve never understood why people argue over the numbers, though. It’s the same message, so why should the total number + the order (1st, 2nd, etc.) matter?
Max,
Years ago I co-taught Sunday school with one of the contributing editors of the ESV (he was a New Testament scholar). I will never forget that in spite of his scholarship and work on the translation, he taught from the NIV.
ES,
Also, maybe a bit weird but: I’m (officially) an art historian, or at least, i got an M.A. in that field years and years ago, and i honestly canmot remember this topic *ever* coming up in any discussion of iconography.
I mean, it might have, but i don’t recall, or else, people in the field decided a long time ago that the order and numbers aren’t nearly as important as what’s stated in them.
There really aren’t enough hours in the day to spend anymof them arguing over something that’s pretty trivial, though art and art hist8ry folk sure do have a number of ongoing battles about such things. When i was an undergrad studio art major, one of the fiercest ongoing fights was over whether watercolors are a painting medium or a drawing medium. Which is ridiculous, but the people who were adamant about it *not* being a painting medium were all older men who worked exclusively in oils and who acted like they were part of a secret guild in which Only Real Painters were allowed. (There’s definitely a sexist edge to this, but I’ve talked to men who work in watercolor a lot and *they’ve* been disparaged as not being “real” painters, whatever that means. It’s actually the toughest of all painting media, in many respects, b/c it’s not possible to scrape off all the paint and reuse the paper – unlike oil on canvas. Hmm… :))
ES,
Or that he just shouldn’t say things like that b/c God is, well, God, and he’s just some guy. 😉
When humans perform on stage and receive all of the glory, and words are use that could easily be mistakenly attributed to George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”…………. it’s not a church service- it’s theatre.
ES,
And then, swearing isn’t primarily related to salty language. There’s a whole lot about that in the Jewish part of the Bible, and in the part that came from Jesus, Paul and whoever else wrote the Xtian portion.
Am thinking of “swear falsely,” among other things, which = lying. “Giving false testimony” seems to be closely related, or, like some translations say, “Bearing false witness.” It sure doesn’t seem like Jesus was referring to colorful language when he speaks about it… just my take.
Burwell Stark,
The basic ESV is comparable to the NIV … it’s the ESV Study Bible that causes concern – it is loaded with New Calvinist commentary.
= Acts 29
Jeffrey Allen,
Just curious – what synod does your church belong to?
I am in my mid-60s and grew up in the LCA, which later became part of the ELCA. I can’t recall our liturgy ever having anything in it about being deserving of punishment. Repentance, sure, but then things go on per walking in God’s forgiveness, love and grace (very loose paraphrase).
But there are other synods where i can easily imagine that a mention of punishment might be part of the Sunday liturgy.
Hmmmmm. Three questions come to mind……..
1.) Will MC’s absence have a negative impact on the cash flow?
2.) How much control/influence does MC have over the elders?
3.) Is this really a disciplinary measure for MC, or is it a paid vacation while the fans have time to forget that their rock-star pastor may (or may not have…. who knows?) done something unseemly?
Ted,
Ted – yes, the “narcissistic zero” clip.
The guy has some serious problems, based on that alone.
christiane,
Oh my – christiane, i didn’t know. I’m so sorry.
Agreed that erratic behavior often comes from serious physiological problems. Saw this in a family member, and it was devastating, although what i don’t know is whether this person had one or more brain tumors (or something that could cause si,ilar behavior) in addition to esophageal cancer.
Cults of personality pay to keep their leader on stage. If the leader is gone …
Most New Calvinist churches are pastor-ruled, not elder-ruled
This is an “allow it time to blow over” measure … he will be “restored” and return to a standing ovation within 6-12 months
Max,
I’ve never looked at the ESV study Bible. Offhand, the ESV reminds me a great deal of the old RSV, which is what i grew up hearing in church and read for many years, on my own
The NIV is, in my opinion, anyway, a whole ‘nother thing, but that’s not about the translation, but its newness (to me) when i 1st started reading it. Going from the RSV to the NIV is quite a leap!
I wonder if MC’s state of “unhealth” has caught the attention of the DOJ?
I’m sure they’ve learned enough now to know that the SBC as a whole is unhealthy … throwing Matt’s name into the mix is just a drop in the bucket
“MINE’S LONGER THAN YOURS!!!” One-Upmanship.
Given that I’ve just gone through my biennial workplace training on recognizing and handling sexual harassment, I wonder whether it was unwanted contact that was going on. Perhaps things like commenting on her appearance or behavior in messages to her. It doesn’t have to rise to the level of being sexually explicit before becoming very uncomfortable. And it can always be written off as ‘joking’.
btw ‘unhealth’ probably fits in with newspeak. Can’t use words like sick or ill.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I’m wondering if this has taken six months because it was going to get out anyway a s they are just trying to get ahead of it . . . with the lame non confession above.
Mr. Steak.
Ava Aaronson,
That actually made a lot of sense. Much more sense than TVC’s revelations have, so far.
I was reading on a different site that catching him acting inappropriately with a woman shouldn’t surprise anyone. They explained that this is simply him being consistent. It was explained that he was a 23 year old summer camp pastor and his judgment was so poor that he began a relationship with a minor (17 year old summer camper between her junior and senior years of high school). She then married him at 19 years of age. Outside of his story, this would be called predatory sexual grooming of a minor. 23-17=6 years. Power differential of pastor to high schooler. If this story is true (apparently there are videos of him discussing it nonchalantly), he should never have been allowed to continue pastoring. That’s sick.
I’ve wondered the same thing.
Or perhaps just “unhealth” of a different kind (from the conservative evangelical view of “healthy” sexuality). I’ve also kinda wondered if Anthony Moore would not have been dropped like a hot potato if his targets had been women.
Pattern of “unhealth” with women.
Matt: 23 year old camp pastor
Lauren: 17 year old high school student
Source: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/tgc-podcast/dating-and-gospel-compatibility/
My husband and I have taken to calling them the 11 commandments because we can see value in either numbering. One puts a very strong emphasis on just how destructive coveting is (one kind of has to covet prior to stealing or committing adultery) and the other puts a very strong emphasis on worshiping one God. Both positions have their points.
I’m going to ramble a bit here. I guess, what really stood out to me was how it shifted the emphasis of the ten commandments from spiritual interactions with God to our worldly interactions with fellow humans. So, I grew up in a church that was willing to sacrifice the individual for the institution. Things like: Abuse isn’t a good reason for divorce. We must keep the Sabbath to such a strict degree that some of my friends were not allowed to play with their non-Christian friends on Sunday. There was a distinct idea that we were spiritually better than those others, including other Christians. This extended to some rather long rants about the use of Iconography in the Catholic church being Idolatry, which was only ever defended with the 2nd commandment. This church was not service minded, and had some rather negative things to say about churches that were “too focused on outreach and social justice!” I grew up in a church that was Calvinist and Reformed long before that was cool. Sermons tended to be about doctrinal minutia and deep ivory tower sins of thinking wrong.
So, I go looking for a church that takes the concept of service to outsiders very seriously. I specifically look for a church that isn’t trying to use service just to get people in the doors, but wants to use service specifically to benefit the persons being served. No alternative motive. It’s service because Jesus told us to stop being so selfish and serve. And this new church has a different 10 commandments numbering that puts an emphasis on how my earthly actions can harm my fellow human beings. And that aligns with what I am hearing in sermons.
I realize it is just one example, but it feels theologically important to me that the people who were more worried about sinning against God in their thought life had an extra commandment about idolatry and the people who were worried about sinning against their fellow mankind had an extra commandment about how to view other people.
I’m pretty sure I’m not explaining well, because it is really hard to get to the bottom of the kind of self-flagellation I was taught to do over my thoughts, but the disdain I was taught to feel about people who didn’t live up to our standards. I often heard: I’ve made an idol out of X, from the same mouth that would say nasty things about people who were poor and therefore weren’t working hard enough and didn’t deserve charity.
There is a connection there, even if it isn’t 100% consistent.
The embedded video atop your page was pulled down off You Tube by whomever’s account it was (Village Church, I am guessing).
I wonder why they removed the video?
Was the Billy Graham Rule only for married men when they may be around unMarried women?
Because you had a married guy here (Chandler) texting with a married woman.
Months ago, Chandler depicted people with doubts about the Christian faith, some of whom call themselves “deconstructors” in a not altogether unflattering manner, which I discussed here
(but it’s not just Chandler, it’s a bunch of other pastors who were doing this over the last several months, too):
Pastor Matt Chandler Oddly and Patronizingly Frames Deconstruction as Being “Sexy”
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2022/05/06/some-christians-attacking-anyone-who-is-in-the-process-of-deconstructing-the-christian-faith-part-4-pastor-matt-chandler-oddly-and-patronizingly-frames-deconstruction-as-being-sexy/
I just went looking and cannot find the reference. But somewhere, in the ESV study Bible, or in some sort of introductory video or documentary, I distinctly remember hearing or seeing that the ESV is the only English translation that specifically has a Covenantal/Reformed bias. That isn’t what they said, because admitting to bias is problematic. But basically, as they translated this version, they were making translation decisions based on whether or not that decision supported their predetermined systematic theological stance.
Even when I was very strong Calvinist, that was really problematic for me.
I’m not sure if the Village Church has a worship band or not, or if it has a name, but if they have a band, I suggest they call the band
“The Narcissistic Zeros”
That may have been true in your teens, but as the daughter of a CT Yankee and an Arkansas redneck (not hillbilly, different area) Marine who has lived all up and down the East Coast – a Milk-shake is a cold ice-cream (sometimes malt) based beverage and Starbucks has clarified that a Frappe is a hot coffee beverage.
Muff, have you ever considered that some of the people at Chandler’s church are REALLY fond of him? And some of those people likely own guns? Are you REALLY sure it’s a good idea to require someone to be open about something that has got Precious Pastor Matt on a leave of absence?
I’m thinking of a certain search warrant that was released in redacted form last Friday, and the names of most of the people (including the FBI agent) in it were redacted. Why? Because some of the followers of the man named in the search warrant have threatened in general anyone involved with the warrant. In fact, the synagogue of the magistrate judge who signed the original warrant had to cancel services for two weekends running (that I know of) because of threats towards him.
I could see a person and her family, her employer, etc. being harassed by some of the members of TVC were they to find out who she is. The fact is, the law firm which was brought on to review (not really investigate) the situation was apparently satisfied that the situation was bad enough for a leave of absence.
Great comment!
According to the guys you’ve cited, William Blake was not a real painter because he worked in watercolors.
I can’t believe the hubris!
I hate to break it to those guys, but Blake’s works will still be around capturing the human eye long after their stuff fades into obscurity.
Sounds like a case of “It isn’t art if I cannot do it.”
The dance world is full of people who do not practice one form of dance or another and therefore have determined that the form of dance they don’t practice is not really dance, or at least not “good” dance. Holding that kind of a opinion is a really fast way to display your insecurities to the whole world!
Now that you mention it, this is a very real possibility. At my evil too big to fail employer, we have to go through a fairly comprehensive sexual (and other) harassment computer program. Unlike other programs, you can’t test out of it; you have to go through every single section. I did the program last month. And yeah, if A is texting B frequently and interfering with B’s job, this is a situation that is going to end up with Human Resources.
But again, we don’t have a clue as to “whatever this is.” So we’re just guessing. It would have been better if the church had put out a forthright statement instead of “whatever this is.”
Kind of like how some art gets slotted into “craft,” in large part because it’s women’s work. I mean, look at pottery. Ancestral Pueblo and related pottery with their red, white and/or black designs is definitely art. Ancient Japanese Jomon pottery is *striking*, particularly for a country that has raised pottery to a high art. (Go look for pictures of flame pots, they’re unlike anything you’ve ever seen.) The same is done with fiber and textile arts (spinning, weaving, dyeing, sewing, knitting, crochet, embroidery etc.), they’re slotted into “crafts” but that’s really a disservice to these artisans.
Someday I’m going to make it up to Blanding, Utah, where a state park museum has a mostly complete 800 year old Ancestral Pueblo turkey feather blanket. Apparently (at least based on analysis of burials at various sites) the turkeys were domesticated, raised specifically for feathers for blankets, and then the feathers were harvested during molting periods. The turkeys themselves could live for 10 years. It just kind of boggles my mind that the turkeys were domesticated and raised for feathers. But it takes ~11,500 feathers to make a turkey feather blanket. And in a world where they did not have sheep or goats, these would have been valuable.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
You’re right Muslin, I hadn’t considered that angle.
The likelihood is high that some of those people (TVC members) are as crazy as outhouse rats, and wouldn’t hesitate a heartbeat to engage in violence if they thought their Shaman was being threatened.
In my state, that would be stalking which is a crime. There is a reason that organizations require people to undergo regular training in these kinds of things; some people don’t think they are behaving inappropriately.
The lack of transparency is an epidemic in evangelical Christianity.
ES,
From the Introduction
“The doctrinal perspective of the ESV Study Bible is that of classic evangelical orthodoxy, in the historic stream of the Reformation. The notes are written from the perspective of confidence in the complete truthfulness of the Bible. In passages where errors or contradictions have been alleged, possible solutions to these challenges have been proposed. At times the notes also summarise interpretations that are inconsistent with classic evangelical orthodoxy, indicating how and why such views are in conflict with Scripture…… The ESV Study Bible uses the “essentially literal” ESV Bible translation as the foundational text for creating the study Bible notes and other features. Emphasising word-for-word accuracy, literary excellence, and depth of meaning, the ESV Bible is especially suited to the basic text for a study Bible.”
And here is Wayne Grudem’s lengthy explanation why the ESV is best.
http://www.waynegrudem.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/The-advantages-of-the-ESV.pdf
ES,
I think it’s still true of the New England states, b/c i asked a friend from western MA about this terminology a couple of werks ago. She said that a frappe = what the rest of us refer to as a milkshake.
Honest. I think that’s why it came to mind and ended up in my comment. Starbucks’ doesn’t have the lock on that word. And in rural areas (much of the US), Starbucks’ isn’t exactly an established name. I can’t vouch for other parts of the country, but here, Dunkin Donuts is the chain that makes fancy coffees and similar (albeit they don’t hsve espresso machines).
ES,
https://newengland.com/today/food/new-england-made/milk-shakes-frappes-cabinets/
In fact electronic versions as well as recent printed versions (and not just the commentary) get changed all the time. One can’t be sure of the text of ANY ESV or other “recent translations” in electronic form AND the last few printings. An old fashioned 1950s RSV stayed as it was till next time you read it, and after that.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
About ceramics: gosh, the instructors in my art department were all men, with one exception (and there were a bunch of faculty members who specialized in ceramics). Same for ceramics majors. Mixing and wedging clay is really hard physical work, and that’s just the prep! Goes double for ceramic sculpture. It’s brutal work a great deal of the time.
In Japan, pottery/ceramics has traditionally been an all-male field.
It’s “for women” in some cultures, yeah – but art vs. fine crafts is very much a top-down kind of categorization. It’s come through elitism in both Europe and this country – “fine art” = painting and sculpture, while everything else = craft/fine crafts. There’s quite a hierarchy around art vs. design.
Muff Potter,
I think it’s not meant as a putdown of people like Blake, though.
One reason watercolor is disparaged has to do with a tendency in parts of the 18th and 19th c. British art world to use watercolors in creating what are disparagingly referred to as “tinted drawings.” The fact is that there really are such things.
Blake, iirc, worked in gouache = opaque watercolors. There’s another kind – transparent watercolors. That is where the ire is focused.
Don’t ask me why, as i have no idea!
Muff Potter,
Although re. Blake, most of his art was created as illustrations for his books. *This* is where the rubber hits the road. Illustrators are not traditionally viewed as “fine artists.” Never mind the many brilliant illustrators out there.
It’s viewed as one of the applied arts b/c the text comes 1st, then the illustrations. Blake might actually have agreed, as he wasn’t a product of the Royal Academy.
ES,
Very interesting! I’ve never been involved with this milieu, nor been in it, so I’ve never thought of the 10 commandments in this way… but nearly all of them are about how humans should treat one another, regardless of which numbering scheme is used, no?
To break it down even further, there’s Jesus’ reply on the greatest commandments. The 1st one is about humans and God, while the 2nd is about humans and how we treat other humans. 50-50 split.
ES,
They orphaned us from the late 1940s onwards with their shallow grandiosity (with a further nosedive in the early 1980s). We never needed to think they were on our side. Little ones have always said to their Biggers & Betters, depart from us, for we never knew you. We’ve always been in the hedgerow, spiritually.
I can prove that this doing of Chandler’s was not “romantic” (and he is telling truth there) because coarseness is unromantic. There!
Mania is mistaken for charismatic gifts and charismatic gifts have been airbrushed out of their theology altogether (total materialists), a double whammy.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
It has not continued well all my life since I joined this heresy at 17, and has started badly among 100 % of the “christians” of my acquaintance.
ES,
Such a tragic story. “Christianity” indeed holds that everyone must be nasty to everyone. Just when there is such need for friendliness between boys and girls.
numo,
Seeing as God’s sole concern is for the orphans that makes it 100.
Wild Honey,
It’s all guesswork, of course, but if the discussion wasn’t “romantic or sexual,” then ligic dictates that whatever was wrong would be wrong if the other person were a man.
Others have mentioned Mr. Chandler’s past brain tumor. Maybe the discussion showed signs of serious incapacity on his part.
I was returning to comment on this possibility. If there is one legitimate excuse for aberrant behavior, especially if it recently came into being, then it is a neurological disease. God forbid he have a return of his cancer, and that it metastasized to his brain. If so, then “unhealth” would be a more appropriate term, and the lack of specificity in the disclosure would be due to HIPAA laws and to give the family time to see a doctor to determine what’s going on.
That would certainly eliminate the loci, but not the overall points, of this conversation. There is plenty of room for critique of Big Evangelical Celebrity culture and the unhealthy characteristics of mega-/multi-site churches.
*locus. Sigh. Typing before finishing one’s coffee is not recommended.
The CSB study bible is also one to avoid.
Ok sorry my system is wonky today. My comments at the top of Mr. Jesperson’s. Supposed to quote him, then comment. Please read it that way, and not blame him for my comments:)
numo,
Frappe – interesting. I’d never heard that before and my family has lived in Massachusetts and Connecticut since the Mayflower.
On a very light note. The first Frappe I ever experienced looked kind of like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVY9DxkSGWY
Lowlandseer,
I know what the cover of the ESV says. I have at least three copies. I pulled those three copies to look and see what they said inside, and it wasn’t my memory.
So, by process of elimination, I have a very strong memory concerning a documentary shown in my Calvinist Church about the ESV (in favor of the ESV) that discussed the actual translation process and they clearly state that they felt the need for an English translation that would back up Covenant Theology rather than dispensationalism. The documentary portrayed this as a good thing, a positive thing that would help people see that Calvinism and Covenantal Theology were the correct interpretation of the Bible. To someone with some Classics education (limited, but some) this was not a good thing.
I cannot find that documentary. But I have found someone who is trying to point out where the ESV changes scripture to more closely align with Calvinism. I had not done this research up until now, I had just questioned motives based on words I heard coming out of an actual translator’s mouth. But this, as far as I am concerned, is a really good argument for why the ESV has issues. And to be honest, this accusation is pretty consistent with what I have seen in Bible studies from many of the individuals who endorse this translation. https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2020/09/a-random-verse-that-destroys-calvinism.html
#34 is really interesting when you look at the “doctrine” of the Eternal Submission of Christ to the Father.
Add in this discussion of Genesis 3:16 and we now have a translation that is outright changing the Bible: https://amygannett.com/why-the-esv-translation-changes-matter-two-things-to-consider/
For ole Max, doing anything before coffee is dangerous … it would be “unhealth” for me!
The ESV is printed & distributed by Crossway Publishers … which publishes all things Calvinist.
Burwell Stark,
Maybe the person who spoke to Mr. Chandler about his messages was concerned because he seemed incoherent or to be showing signs of dementia.
ES,
I’ve got 3 ESVs as well and a dispensationalist NET and Scofield Bible, as well as the SBC Holman if you believe the rumours 🙂
Here’s an article that offers some balance by differentiating between the ESV translation and the ESV notes.
My Bibles of choice are KJV, Geneva 1599, Tyndale, Coverdale, EW Bullinger’s Companion Bible, Thomson’s Chain Reference, NIV and NASB. I don’t read the ESV, NLT or The Message.
Oops!
https://aviewfromtheright.com/2016/10/30/does-the-esv-have-a-calvinist-bias/
And for a real taste of High Weirdness, try a Dake’s Annotated Bible.
Pat Robertson’s been showing signs of Alzheimers for about a decade, but the Rules of Celebrity are in effect:
THE CELEBRITY CAN DO NO WRONG.
ONLY TELL THE CELEBRITY WHAT THE CELEBRITY WANTS TO HEAR. NOTHING ELSE. JUST LIKE THE ALGORITHM(TM) IN DON’T LOOK UP.
HIPAA regulations would not be in play here as those only affect organizations that create and handle medical data – hospitals, Dr. offices, insurance companies etc.
There is no law preventing me from disclosing medical info about someone that I somehow came across. There might be some ethical concerns. There would certainly be questions of decency.
They should have stuck a crucifix in a jar full of piss instead. Now THAT’s AHRT(TM)!
Ever heard of the term “Art Fag”?
It has nothing to do with anything sexual; it refers to an obnoxious snobbish attitude towards “What Is AHRT?” Usually AHRT is whatever genre or medium the Art Fag obsesses over and nothing else.
The type example was an urban legend about this one ground-level indie cartoonist (forget his name) who did a popular slice-of-life strip in the Eighties which you’ve probably never heard of. He dropped out of sight after a few years and a few collections and nothing was heard from or of him.
Then came a secondhand report that he’d surfaced in some sort of Real Art scene, dressed like the artist in Roger Corman’s Bucket of Blood, carrying around some toy-sized dustmop lapdog, sneering in an affected accent about “Bougeouis This and Bougeois That.” The guy who related this report to me said the guy had “really went off the deep end”.
Oh, NOW we have a DISCUSSION 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Lol. I did nearly fifty years ago! But I quickly gifted it to my best friend’s Pentecostal girlfriend
Friend,
Oh, i dunno about that… 😉
https://newengland.com/today/food/new-england-made/milk-shakes-frappes-cabinets/
Also, it’s one syllable – “frap.” Not 2 syllables, like the kinds od drinks ES is talking about.
Friend,
Friend,
Uh oh. I have a reply to you that’s in moderation, b/c the spam filter thinks i used A Bad Word.
So anyway –
https://newengland.com/today/food/new-england-made/milk-shakes-frappes-cabinets/
How much in tithe money did the church spend on this investigation? Should he have to reimburse the church for that? Is this a paid LOA? Shouldn’t it be unpaid. Looks like the faithful are funding his “sin”! Lastly, I’ve never DM, texted women other than my wife unless it was for purely business reasons. When there is no accountability you do stupid things. No one is to big to fail, they should just let him go!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Quite a few old people with dementia are in their positions because they are useful to others.
The New Calvinism movement is littered with stupid things (some criminal) committed by its leaders (think Driscoll, MacDonald, Mahaney, Tchividjian, etc. etc.)
Too big to fail? Chandler = TVC … if Chandler fails, TVC fails. In cults of personality, the personality must stay in place or the cult wanders off. Jesus has no authority or influence in a cult of personality. It’s not like genuine Jesus-loving ministries which survive when they move from one pastor to the next; Celebrity Christendom depends on keeping celebrities in the pulpit.
Yet, they let him return to the pulpit in his period of “Unhealth“?
While I have most versions of the Bible in my library, the one I’ve carried for 50 years is the Thompson Chain Reference Bible (KJV) … it’s the one the Apostles used in the first century 🙂
I really think that TVC elders are doing all they can do to avoid that nasty three letter word … SIN. Unhealth keeps you guessing … Sin puts it right out there. Going away for a while until unhealth becomes health again doesn’t require going through the dirty task of confessing sin and repenting, perhaps even being disqualified from ministry. Driscoll laid low for awhile before making his unrepentant comeback … Chandler will most likely do the same thing.
I think avoiding this 3-letter word is actually pretty common.
Several years ago I had a conversation with someone about lying. First I had to establish that when someone tells an untruth about someone else they are lying. This was remarkably hard to establish. Then I had to establish that lies are still damaging even if the liar doesn’t know its a lie (which was debatable in this situation, but my point was that Person A doesn’t have to maliciously intend to hurt Person B in order to hurt Person B). At the end of the day, spreading false witness (whether you know it or not) is sinning against the person you are spreading false witness about. And if you have done so, you need to repent and seek the other person’s forgiveness. Being deceived is not an excuse.
But we have such an aversion to admitting to sin that we are usually pretty good at coming up with other words to avoid calling a spade a spade. So a lie becomes a misunderstanding that resulted from unhealth, and therefore I’m not really responsible. Meanwhile, the Bible is actually pretty clear that lies are sin and result from sin. Period.
Huh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Chandler_%28pastor%29
So, MC is 48 years old. And, Arny syz:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=it%27s+not+a+tumor+youtube&view=detail&mid=ED3ECB5743F664DFBC4BED3ECB5743F664DFBC4B&FORM=VIRE
So, what is it?
This is dangerous. This man has authority over God’s people. He has no business being in authority. He was the one talking about his own discipline. He should have sat silently on the first pew and listened as the elders spoke about his illicit emotional relationship with this woman. That is exactly what it was, he was making inappropriate comments to a woman who is not his wife. Men do that to establish rapport, groom the woman for the next step, then see if they respond favorably or not. I know from experience. He never used the word sin, which he did on purpose. Men who speak to thousands every week, like him, are very careful with their words. He tries to make it all sound like it is unprepared, but every syllable out of his mouth was prepared. It is a total cover up. If he had said, “I sinned. I was saying and doing things I should not have. I am under discipline. I will return when the elders and an independent body of counselors and/or Abuse Professionals have concluded that I have fully corrected my heart’s direction and my actions have been correctly and biblically repented of and the woman and her husband feel that his repentance is full and real.” Maybe then it might seem real. But it is a farce. I am telling you, he’ll be back, and he will be as unaccountable as ever. That is the biggest problem with the celebrity pastor model of mega church. He says he is accountable, but he is not. If he had been, he would have never stood up there and said anything.
What was Chandler’s behavior like when he was young, say several years before the diagnosis of a brain tumor in 2009?
He was married in 1999, to a woman he met when he was a 23-year-old camp pastor and she was a 17-year-old camper. What else is germane?
Unhealth.
Not “Sin.”
Why then this use of the word discipline?
“Matt’s leave of absence is both disciplinary and developmental, which allows him to focus on growing greater awareness in this area,” the church said in the statement. “The timeline for his return will be dictated by the expectations the elders have laid out for his development.”
Source https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article265051084.html#storylink=cpy
Agreed. However, it should be clear by now that Chandler MUST be in control. He’s a dudebro, man … it’s in his DNA. Like most NeoCal pastors, he manipulates, intimidates and dominates the ministry that he owns … an arrogant spirit which must be in charge of even his own discipline!
An interview with John Piper several years ago paints a picture of a troubled young man who had an abusive “pagan father” (his description). I suspect a lot of unresolved stuff in his life as he jumped from a church janitor job to youth pastor – entering the ministry poorly equipped and questioning everything that was traditional about doing church. He was a perfect target for the Acts 29 network of radical NeoCal rebels, an organization he now leads (or did, before they also asked him to step down recently).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qPyy2ycffY&t=1s
True. It seems that 21st century church folks, in both pulpit and pew, just don’t want to humble themselves, pray as they ought, repent and seek God’s face in order to get His presence back in the house (2 Chronicles 7:14). Soooo, pastors like Chandler can do church and prosper because they give the people what they want. Even when they get close to confessing sin and repenting, their congregations jump to their feet and applaud them. It’s a strange thing to behold for this old man who has been a Christian for over 70 years.
Cynthia W.,
To me, that idea (even while being plausible) just makes the situation even weirder. Wouldn’t family and close friends or colleagues (like an actively involved elder board) be the first ones to notice neurological inconsistencies? And be on alert for it so that any possible neurological health problems can be addressed in a timely manner? Why would the friend of a friend be the one to have to bring it to his notice?
Given that he has never hidden his tumor from years ago, if this was the cause of whatever prompted the friend of a friend to approach him, the secrecy for six months, the hiring of a law firm, and the continued vague language would seem to be doing more harm than good, even from an image management perspective.
As Alice would say in Wonderland, “Curiouser and curiouser.”
There is an article out there on CT that talks about that very thing, applauding, and it decries is as ignorant and ungodly, my terms not theirs.
The article I mentioned above.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/august-web-only/matt-chandler-pastors-church-leadership-applauding-sins.html
It’s as if the more sacrilegious New Calvinists can be, the bigger the crowd they can draw. There’s a strange dynamic in that camp, where the pew likes pulpits who live no differently than they do … it makes them feel better about themselves … so when pastor sins, they applaud. When will this madness end?
So, roughly (?) Feb 2022 to Aug 2022. Director(s), Producers, Actors, etc. Start with the script, go thru a few re-writes, it’s got to be “marketable” in order to go the distance(?). Throw the woke in the wok, give it the old stir-fry spin cycle. Shake it, bake it, serve it up hot. And, now the fact gathering begins… Again, what are the production costs for this “piece?” (Please, stop the monkey-business and hold the applause!) Who is paying for it and why, why, why???
Great point, as if an illness can be healed by punishment. How many spankings does it take to heal a fever?
“Repentance requires honesty, humility, and sorrow, not managing appearances, controlling the narrative, or hiding the facts”.
Nope, ain’t going to happen within New Calvinist churches. They do church differently.
“We should not applaud confessions of sin. Ovations serve no spiritual purpose, and in these situations, especially, they only cause hurt and harm.”
Sounds so sensible doesn’t it? … you know, conducting yourselves as a Church of the Living God. But we are talking about the new reformation here where they have new and improved ways of doing church that don’t have to deal with respect and reverence for the things of God … it was predestined for such a time as this for them to act like goobers. New Calvinism couldn’t get here soon enough, there was an audience already waiting for them who were tired of Gramma’s religion.
NASB Thompson Chain Reference was handy, here, … before the internet made cross-referencing easy.
Were the Apostles around in King James’ day?
Yes, he’s dangerous. No he doesn’t have authority over God’s people, although he believes he does.
After all, they’re The Predestined Elect;
God Himself signed their personal Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free card before the foundation of the world.
Just another Meaningless Buzzword, that’s all.
I attempted to make a joke, which was delivered poorly. Sometimes, the silliness of the church (e.g., the TVC mess) makes me crazy and I say stupid things.
Max,
Thank you.
Medical speculation feels so unseemly, but a nonexistent medical condition should not be used as an excuse.
My church is Missouri Synod.
Heres the complete confession from Divine Service 3
O almighty God, merciful Father,
I, a poor, miserable sinner, confess
unto You all my sins and iniquities
with which I have ever offended You
and justly deserved Your temporal
and eternal punishment. But I am
heartily sorry for them and sincerely
repent of them, and I pray You of
Your boundless mercy and for the
sake of the holy, innocent, bitter
sufferings and death of Your
beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to be
gracious unto me a poor sinful being.
The pastors response:
Upon this your confession, I, by virtue
of my office, as a called and ordained
servant of the Word, announce the
grace of God unto all of you, and in
the stead and by the command of my
Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all
your sins in the name of the Father and
of the The Son and of the Holy Spirit
I can only imagine that in the larger evangelical world this confession would not meet the current standards of making us feel good about ourselves while being in a upbeat cool worship (entertaiment) service with a light show and a humour spouting pastor in tight jeans.
Is it any wonder that so many young people are gravitating to the catholic and orthodox church for a christianity that was not invented two weeks ago?
As for myself this is the confession I need and want. It speaks to my sinful reality and my need for grace and help.
ES,
Chandler ought to first renounce then denounce the religious system that picked on him in order to deceive him to serve its purposes. Its rewards to him on earth are not sufficient.
Yes.
Grooming interrupted?
What he did, didn’t pass the smell test.
Wild Honey,
Excellent points. One possibility, if he is ill, is denial from his family or coworkers.
I could tell myself that my father didn’t have Alzheimer’s because the symptoms my mother reported sounded like the normal behaviors of my husband. I was like, “So nu?”
Well, the NeoCal bunch haven’t had trouble with coarse talking in the past! Heck, the Acts 29 network has lots of potty-mouth preachers. So, yes, there’s most likely something more in the DMing, than unbecoming talk by a “pastor.”
Today I was reading/meditating on:
Despisest thou the riches of His (the LORD Jesus Christ) goodness? (Rom 2:4).
His goodness is “despised” when it is not improved as a means to lead men to repentance, but, on the contrary, serves to harden them from the supposition that God entirely overlooks their sin. The goodness of God is the life of the believer’s trust.
Selah!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Actually, Andres Serrano’s photo of the crucifix in urine isn’t whet so many people think it is. He did interviews about it, bsck when it was do controversial. You might want to Google that and see…
“Fag” is a slur, period. Not a word i will use. I understand what you’re saying, snd i know thf kind of person you mean. Itt just seems to me that there are better ways of putting it.
I have Bullinger’s too, and I think it’s the best of the bunch.
The appendices are extensive, factual scholarship, and refered to quite a lot in the main Biblical text.
Also, it’s King James, which I prefer because I love the lilting Elizabethan prose.
Father of Girls,
gospel-compatibility…
good grief, they made something up again.
i’ll add that one to my running list of gospel-nonsense.
what does one do when her religion becomes theater?
Remember when everything was “gospel-centered” with this bunch? … gospel-centered teaching … gospel-centered living … gospel-centered marriages … gospel-centered lattes … etc. etc. Problem is, it’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel!
Muff Potter,
Also, The Companion Bible IS NOT A COMMENTARY.
Nor does it promote a particular ideology, which often masquerades as ‘theology’.
(as in the ESV ‘study bible’)
It just has the main text of canonized Scripture, along with factual data in the appendices, from which the reader can form his or her own ‘theology’ for lack of a better descriptor.
I’m from Massachusetts, where we had frappes way before they were cool, and you are quite correct. It’s one syllable, just like the Harvard *Coop.”
When I was 16, I worked at the ice cream counter and window for a sandwich place in Wilmington, Mass. I made many frappes. They are milkshakes on steroids. Definitely cold, not hot. 😀
Coffee frappes are the best. Yum. Memories!
I’m from Massachusetts, where we had frappes way before they were cool, and you are quite correct. It’s one syllable, just like the Harvard *Coop.”
When I was 16, I worked at the ice cream counter and window for a sandwich place in Wilmington, Mass. I made many frappes. They are milkshakes on steroids. Definitely cold, not hot. 😀
Coffee frappes are the best. Yum. Memories!
Do I detect a *Guys and Dolls* allusion?
Yikes, it looks as if two separate comments got schmooshed together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA9bCV7zLv4