Celestial Cloudscape: NASA/ESA telescope
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the universe.” ―
I’m in the process of coming home from Florida. I wrote this whole post while Bill was driving. I hope it came out OK. The following are a few articles that caught my eye. I’m sure TWW readers will have something to say.
What in the world is a youth-oriented congregation?
Have you ever heard of a preacher whose goal is to be “loud and dumb? I saw this in the New York Times: This Preacher Would Be Happy to Share Your Bowl of Açaí.
Today was Baptism Sunday and nearly a dozen adults signed up, cheered on by a crowd of mostly 20-somethings who were gathered behind a metal barricade. Chad Veach, the 38-year-old founder of Zoe, who moved to West Los Angeles from Seattle in 2014, chewed gum as he danced to a pop gospel playlist blaring overhead. “Let’s go!” he shouted, clapping. A pair of muscular men dunked a woman in the waist-high water. She surfaced, arms pumping the air, as a friend snapped photographs that were later posted on Instagram.
Zoe — pronounced “zo-AY, like, be-yon-SAY,” as Mr. Veach often says — is one of the newest in a wave of youth-oriented evangelical churches (ed. Los Angeles) making their homes here. While most are content to have a church and a campus or two, Mr. Veach is claiming nothing less than Los Angeles County and its population of 10 million. “We’ll have many locations,” he said of Zoe. He is opening a San Fernando Valley campus on Sunday and plans one more per year for the next decade or so.
…Mr. Veach is a 24-hour-a-day presence on Instagram: photographed at the gym or beach, singing car karaoke with the pop star Justin Bieber, watching the Lakers, even waiting for the valet.
…Mr. Veach believes he can save souls by being the hip and happy-go-lucky preacher, the one you want to share a bowl of açaí with at Backyard Bowls on Beverly Boulevard, who declines to publicly discuss politics in the Trump era because it’s hard to minister if no one wants to come to church. Jesus is supposed to be fun, right?
…“I want to be loud and dumb,” Mr. Veach said with a wide, toothy grin. “That’s my goal.
…But saving souls is a business like any other. Pastors today who want to start a ministry for those 40 and under follow a well-traveled path. First, they lease an old theater or club. Next, they find great singers and backup musicians. A fog machine on stage is nice. A church should also have a catchy logo or catchphrase that can be stamped onto merchandise and branded — socks, knit hats, shoes and sweatshirts. (An online pop-up shop on Memorial Day sold $10,000 in merchandise its first hour, Mr. Veach said.) And lastly, churches need a money app — Zoe uses Pushpay — to make it easy for churchgoers to tithe with a swipe on their smartphones.
So, appears that youth (only) -oriented churches are “the thing” in Los Angeles. I wonder about the depth of the teaching and the theological growth of the congregation. Theology isn’t on the front burner for this “loud and dumb” preacher. Can you imagine the depth of any elders, if he even has those? Perhaps they are even dumber than this Bible college graduate.
Note to Dad: I would still be worried about your son.
Tavner Smith finally admits that the church is in foreclosure
The Roys Report posted Accused Pastor Tavner Smith Acknowledges Venue Church Facing Foreclosure.
Smith acknowledged in his sermon that it’s “absolutely true” that the church’s bank recently published a notice of foreclosure. A copy of the notice shows it ran July 31, then ran again a week later, the day Smith addressed it in his sermon.
“When we found out and saw the notice, just like you, we were scared as well,” Smith said in his sermon. “But we also knew, God’s not done with us.”
“We’ve sought our legal counsel and they have assured me . . . that there are multiple options that they are providing for us to stay here and make it through,” Smith said.
Question for his congregation: Why are you giving money to this guy?
The church has drawn scrutiny since eight staffers quit in December over allegations Smith had kissed a woman who wasn’t his wife. Smith went on a brief sabbatical but returned to preaching a month later. The church closed its satellite campus during Smith’s sabbatical.
Did you hear the one about Alexander Hamilton giving his life to Jesus?
I truly loved the musical Hamilton. It appears that The Door Church, McAllen, Texas, did as well. In this version, Hamilton comes to Jesus. Christianity Today posted Alexander Hamilton Raps His Way to Jesus at Texas Church
During a slightly adapted production of the hit musical Hamilton at The Door Church, a large, diverse congregation, the main character bowed his head, closed his eyes and gave his life to Jesus.
…There was just one problem. The church did not have the rights to perform Hamilton or post videos from a performance online.
“Hamilton does not grant amateur or professional licenses for any stage productions and did not grant one to The Door Church,” a spokesperson for the musical told RNS in an email.
…According to a statement from the producers, they planned to discuss “this matter with the parties behind this unauthorized production within the coming days once all facts are properly vetted.” (ed. Uh oh.)
… pastor Roman Gutierrez acknowledged that the church was contacted by a lawyer from Hamilton and had removed the videos.
…“We had over 30 people get saved between both nights, and that is really why we do these plays,” he said. (ed.Well that solves that…)
It looks like one Lutheran church (ELCA) knows how to do this right.
Musicals can also be a way for churches and other faith groups to bring people together. For a number of years, Bethany Lutheran Church in Crystal Lake, Illinois, has put on musicals like Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat and Mary Poppins.
The church pays for the rights to perform those shows, said Ruth Ann Poppen, director of worship and music, and sees them as a way to help people in the church and the community build their musical skills and self-confidence—and to celebrate the talents in the community. Half the cast from a recent version of Mary Poppins came from outside the church.
…It is a way for us to reach out to be more visible and have people come into our sanctuary outside of really regular worship services,” she said.
Don’t people know about copyrights? Good night!
1
As to youth oriented church, I have seen several online who tell the congregation how great it is to look around the sanctuary and see no gray heads, and then say this is another good thing covid caused. Seriously.
And once had my then pastor tell a couple in their 60’s who were visitors and raving about how wonderful our church was that it was not set up for their age group and the pastor was sure they would find another place to worship the following Sunday.
So did I.
“The church did not have the rights to perform Hamilton or post videos from a performance online.
…“We had over 30 people get saved between both nights, and that is really why we do these plays,” he said.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
seems to me the number one doctrine of (what is it, evangelicalism? christianity?) is The Ends Justifies The Means/b>.
it matters not that it’s not officially written down in any ‘Statement’ cobbled together by some self-appointed ‘council’ of self-entitled folks in self-folded hats from their dinner napkins at a Holiday Inn, or somesuch.
it’s one of those self-evident truths that it’s simply the guiding principle in what is practiced in evangelicalism/christianity.
“I wrote this whole post while Bill was driving. I hope it came out OK.”
Another great post, Dee. Well done. A lot to think about, and discuss here at TWW, over the weekend.
Not paying for services and resources, not giving credit where credit is due …
Christian nonprofits, churches, institutions, individuals and entities are KNOWN for these corrupt practices.
Have you heard servers abhor waiting on church people because they generally tip horribly if at all?
God has nothing to do with this. God is generous. Where God guides, He provides.
Any Christian ministry or work built on the theft of working people is NEVER of God. FAKE.
If a person can’t tip properly, they shouldn’t be eating out in the first place.
Has anyone seen this?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/southern-baptists-say-denomination-faces-doj-investigation/2022/08/12/46330de6-1a89-11ed-b998-b2ab68f58468_story.html
I say YES!
Been following the Texas church and copyright for a few days. Hamilton apparently wasn’t the first production they decided to ignore copyright law on. They also did Beauty and the Beast (Disney stage version) a few years ago.
https://www.onstageblog.com/editorials/2022/8/9/texas-church-facing-backlash-for-unauthorized-hamilton-production-made-the-same-alterations-to-disneys-beauty-amp-the-beast (via https://onlysky.media/hemant-mehta/before-hamilton-the-door-mcallen-church-stole-beauty-and-the-beast/)
One wonders whether any other churches in its group (Christian Fellowship Ministries) have done the same.
They will claim persecution by a corrupt and godless government. Half the country will agree and the other half won’t. It will become a circus show, which will provide just enough distration to turn attention away from the crimes of the abusers. Or maybe I have become too cynical.
It’s so sad Bieber has been continually targetted by these types.
It’s taken me a lifetime to see through them, myself.
““Individually and collectively each SBC entity is resolved to fully and completely cooperate with the investigation,” the statement said. “While we continue to grieve and lament past mistakes related to sexual abuse, current leaders across the SBC have demonstrated a firm conviction to address those issues of the past and are implementing measures to ensure they are never repeated in the future.”“
That’s a relief, no?
So how exactly are they going to implement measures on churches over which they exercise no governmental agenda control, per what they may have previously indicated when such issues surfaced before?
Off topic, but BAM!
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2022/august/federal-investigation-southern-baptist-abuse-executive-comm.html
Hey all
I am collectig info on the DOJ investigation of the SBC since it just came out this afternoon as I was passing through Georgia. Can you imagine the legal fees alone??
The spin machines will soon be operating at full capacity. We could make a poll on expected statements. We know of course, that the SBC has always been a model for preventing abuse…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“…our hearts are broken…”
LE probes SBC for DOJ. A-OK.
“ Jesus is supposed to be fun, right?”
Well yeah. After all it’s right there in Scripture (2 Hedonists 3:16 – “…for God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son to throw a disco party with a fog machine…”)
Can’t wait to hear the sermon on suffering…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“PERSECUTION!!!!!!!”
Worship band with a casino nightclub vibe.
Our family has attended such worship services. Our kids (the youth) complained about this and asked that we never attend such “worship” again.
They’re the ones who said they felt they were in a nightclub instead of church.
Kids can be smarter than fog machines and slinky stage outfits.
Don’t people know about copyrights? Good night!
Ah, nope.
There are a large number of people (I know about the US not the world) who think copyright laws are nonsense. If it is on a web site, youtube, whatever, it is fair game to be copied and use. And I see this from Christians and not. Some of them are the most faithful and pious plus big on law and order but just don’t see an issue with using the work of others.
When they ask me to help them on their computer because their “Youtube downloader” is not working and I tell them they are violating copyright, they move on to getting help from someone else who will not add such nonsense friction to their life.
Sad
NC Now,
Oh yeah. This didn’t start with the Internet. Photo copying paper was a great thing also back in ancient of days prior to the Internet.
Moving back into a tiny, very tiny, Eastern Rite parish, made up of “the least of these” or drawn alternatively to an 8am Franciscan mass attended by homeless people and aged Catholic hippies I have to say these mega churches, especially those for the young only, are frightening as hell to me.
linda,
This makes me sad and angry. One thing I love about a church is when I see a beautiful mix of tiny children, gray heads and everything in between. The church I’m in now has this, and the most beautiful part of it is that people cross age barriers and single/married barriers to get to know each other. Most of us are there for an hour after the service ends, just spending time together. If you don’t have the gray heads, where’s the wisdom and life experience? One of the unhealthiest churches I was ever a part of was one that had almost no gray heads. Everyone was an exhausted young parent, and nobody had time for outreach or other things because we were all completely embroiled in diapers and making sure our kids didn’t run into the street.
R–thank you! I know some of those gray heads have decided that if their gray heads are not wanted, neither are their greenbacks. Which is prompting the youth oriented preachers to call them false believers since a real believer would completely continue tithing even when they are discouraged from attending.
off topic, but an alternative would be for the employers to pay the servers adequately, and add the additional cost into the meal price. But the first mover would be at a disadvantage with respect to competitors who did not do this, so it won’t happen without “from above” compulsion. Such is our system.
———
re: the fog machines and general “youth orientation”. The C&MA church that I attended until the late ’00s rebranded their weekly worship service as “celebration” and enlarged the “order of service” to begin with about 1/2 hour of deafening music, accompanied by congregational singing. I took to arriving at the end of this “worship time” in the interest of protecting my hearing (“hearing” seems to be really important in the Scriptures and it puzzles me that the churches are not more concerned to protect this aspect of their congregants’ faculties).
“Fog”, one could argue, is not that much different from the smoke of burning incense, so I suppose it could have an appropriate use. Maybe it could be scented with essential oils from the plants that went into the OT Temple incense recipe. Some of those may even have antiviral properties.
LOL. Exactly what a new pastor of a mega in our area found out. He came into a church that had grown over decades under a leader who retired. Mixed ages congregation – multi-generations of families. Grandparents teaching Sunday School to grandkids.
New pastor guy, after one year of stealth ambition, then eliminated the traditional worship service the retired people liked, with their hymns and all that. LOL – they all left, together, for a different church, taking their $$$ with them.
Retired folks are a mixture. Some on limited income, some with unlimited. Pastors who nix their input deserve the consequences, that these oblivious cold “leaders” don’t get until it’s too late.
Oblivious cold leaders are never worthy of trust. Running a church without trust? Good luck with that.
‘They’ have neither the aptitude nor the sophistication to do such a thing.
(make incense from some arcane recipe in an old book)
If it can’t be reduced to an APP on their phones, they would have almost zero interest.
Am I being too snide?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“…mistakes…”
(well, a mistake, of course, is putting 4 tablespoons of baking powder in the biscuits instead of 4 teaspoons.)
I’m guessing “organic moments” don’t include baking soda. The advantage of calling it an organic moment is it avoids having to call it something requiring personal responsibility. No need even to say, “mistakes were made.”
The Pick-up is always followed by the Discard.
There are Pick-up lines (troll and catch) and Discard lines (now release). (Between Pick-up and Discard, there’s a whole ordeal for the caught that is never forgotten.)
Discard lines include:
“It was an organic moment.”
“Mistakes were made.”
“Leaders are human, just like you and me.”
“He said, She said.”
“Forgiveness.”
“What was she wearing?”
“Grace.”
“Church of Second Chances.”
And eventually followed by the compulsory standing ovation
linda,
I might think it an “honor” for one of these “young Turks” or what ever you call then to call “gray haired” me a “non-believer”. I am definably not a Neo-Cal, or a 9-Marks, or other “pew peons”….
well, blowing up biscuits doesn’t rise to the same level of mistake compared to preachers who can’t keep their pants on
Max,
Poppin’ Fresh would make a better pastor than some I have seen.
I had a similar (bad) experience with a church that was mostly young families. Volunteer burnout was endemic and openly acknowledged from the pulpit, but little meaningful action was taken to address it. I think part of the reason was unrealistic standards of what people could offer the church (both financially and of their time) in that life stage.
Four years after my family left, and a year and a half after the founding pastor left, the church closed its doors. Which was hardly a surprise, it want a sustainable model.
The church I know best does address volunteer burnout. Some services are offered by paid people. One program was phased out because it did not add a whole lot, and it used a large amount of volunteer time.
Already anticipated you, Max:
“SIN IS SIN!!!!! AND GOD HATES ALL SIN WITH SUCH A PERFECT HATRED…”
Was this taken as “On Fire For The LORD”, Wretched Urgency in general (where nothing is enough), or just another More Christian Than Thou one-upmanship?
i.e. The sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick – “BAAL! BAAL! BAAL!”?
Incidentally, “Baal” can be translated as “Lord”. Gives a whole new meaning to those Christian whose every other word fro their mouths is “The LORD” (up to and including including caps lock and multiple “O”s).
II know Christians are notoriously late adopters, but Disco peaked with Saturday Night Fever back in 1977, jumped the shark, and died out in the early Eighties with the “Disco Sucks!” Movement. That’s a 40-year delay for the Christianese Knockoffs to become Compulsory SCRIPTURE.
Is this another generation of thin grey ponytails trying to convince themselves “I’M YOUNG! I’M YOUNG! I’M YOUNG!”? (Would explain the clergy sex scandals involving a young (if not underage) target profile.)
Check whether the Worship Leader(TM) stage gear is that of a young John Travolta, 100% polyester leisure suit and all. Maybe with a cross instead of a cocaine spoon dangling into his silver chest hair. “DOODLLOODDOODOOLOOLOO – STAYIN’ ALIVE! STAYIN’ ALIVE!”
Disco fog machines can lay quite a smokescreen.
I take it ya’ll would also reject one church we attended for a while. New pastor first wanted the senior Sunday school class, which was very large, to move from the sanctuary it half filled to a very small room being used as a storage closet. Seniors could empty out the stuff but had to find a space to put it. Then seniors were discouraged from attending worship services, but told they were welcome to serve by tending the nursery, working children’s church, or being parking/security attendants in the parking lot. No joke, the security was to keep bears out of the cars, not people lol. I surely have lived in rural mountain towns. Not sure what papaw on a walker could do to a hungry bear, though. Or how fast granny on a walker could chase down toddlers. Of course, healthy fit folks over the age of 55 were also deemed old and told to go hide, so to speak.
All this was because as we were told “Nobody but I mean nobody is going to want to attend a church when they come through the door and see a bunch of old people.”
In my neck of the woods, making a bad batch of biscuits is a sin.
One of the things a lot of these hip pastors are going to find is that the gray hairs give better than the young. Start a young oriented church and see how well the giving gets. These monsters require a lot of financial feeding.
SBC’s New Calvinist church planters and takeover artists have found that out. They preach to young folks with shallow sermons and run the old saints off. When they takeover a traditional church by stealth and deception, splits occur and the new reformers might end up church buildings and other assets but not enough dough in the offering plate to pay the electric bill.
Doing church in the presence of the Lord is refreshing. Doing church without God in the house is exhausting. Doing church in the Spirit invigorates and revives. Doing church in the flesh is burdensome and trying.
I miss the days when we violated copyright law because people needed to SEE the kind of absurdity a space-alien cult was hiding as its “sooper sekrit sakrid skripchers” and we considered it fair use because none of us was making money off it! I knew two people who had their homes turned upside down after the space alien cult got court orders to raid their homes and seize documents. Then they proceeded to spend the rest of the ’90s in litigation with said cult. For one guy (he has since passed on), the cult wanted over $2 million in fines for his copyright violations. The judge said NOPE and said it was $1,000 per violation, the de minimis, for a total of $16,000. (As a side note, this guy wanted to argue with the court about it, and a not-involved attorney–not me–had to drag him aside and say, “Arnie, just pay the money, this is the best deal you’re going to get.”) The other guy, he and the cult settled out of court and he’s been living his best life with his wife, stepkids and grandkids in Southern California for the past two decades.
My point is that copyright and trademark law is seriously not to be messed with. I mean, trademark holders have looked the other way for decades now on “Christian” parodies of commercial logos. (Anyone here remember “Give the Master charge of your life? with the old MasterCharge logo? Master Charge became MasterCard in 1979.) And the reason is because these are parodies. In Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. (1994), just because money is made doesn’t mean that the parody couldn’t also be fair use under the four factors of fair use and I am sure Christian t-shirt parodists very much have that in mind.
Obviously the Hamilton performance isn’t fair use. The church not only did not get a license for the work, nor did it get permission to change / add to the work [which it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY the playwright would have granted], nor does it appear that they had a license for the digital recording of the music they used (because it doesn’t appear there was a live orchestra). It’s also alleged that while the church didn’t charge for tickets, they were selling items that had the Hamilton logo on it–so trademark violations. These people may have bought themselves a lawsuit or two, and not for something like letting everyone know “this cult be WEIRD, folks” but as a proselytizing tool.
What I want to ask is why do Evangelical Christians make a point of not being “of the world,” and then basically STEALING from “the world” to lure people in? Why can’t Evangelical Christians produce art that stands on its own and attracts people in who want to know more instead of presenting ersatz copies that have been “sanitized for your protection”? (Part of the editing of the church “Hamilton” was removing some vulgarities.) Great art is *challenging*, folks. It should make you consider and ask questions. Taking someone else’s art and working it over without permission is just not the way you do it.
… is not the Body of Christ.
The actual Body of Christ has gifts given by the Holy Spirit to the Body of Christ, without collecting a penny. It’s not transactional. It’s not capitalism. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4. Cross-referencing throughout the Bible, each of the 18 HS given gifts presents an amazing picture of what the Body of Christ is really all about. A building, a hierarchy of staff, a website, collections and donations – none of these are needed. (Sorry, to the pastors passing the plate today to pay your salaries while funding the religious industrial complex. But really, not sorry.)
I believe surplus of economics in societies has allowed this industrial complex to grow with paid pastors and staff in fancy buildings. Unfortunately, the database of the Houston Chronicle regarding the DOJ’s finds of Clergy Sexual Abuse is evidence that this model has often (not always) largely come to a tragic end.
Because Satan himself is an imitator. The imitators are his. They are children of the Father of Lies. Red warning flag, folks.
God is Creator. Children of God should be creating originals, yes.
The whole tax-free or tax exemption for churches in our society creates a law free or lawlessness culture in churches, as in, “We are the church and answer to neither the Rule of Law nor the Common Good.” Special. God’s pet kids get a pass, on everything they do, apparently.
And everyone shouted AMEN!! (or should have)
The Christian Industrial Complex is not about Jesus … it’s about us.
I remember during the height of Twilight Mania, a Christianese Knockoff T-Shirt “TheLight” in the exact same color and font. Like something out of Ray Blackston’s A Pagan’s Nightmare or South Park‘s CCM episode where Cartman forms a Christian Praise& Worship Band.
I also remember after discovering Dungeons & Dragons pulled me out of the Bubble, it took a LONG time for my ability and desire to create to come back. I literally had to push anything to do with God out and keep pushing it out in order to create. And I’m a Compulsive Creative. As some other commenter on Internet Monk(?) put it, “You could only Create when you cut yourself off from The Source of all Creation.” Like it was acting as an inhibitor.
As well as adding the Altar Call Ending for Soul-Winning brownie points at the Bema.
“Just like Hamilton, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
When I notified Eagle about it, the email was titled “I DIDN’T KNOW HAMILTON HAD AN ALTAR CALL ENDING!”
I learned long ago that “If It’s Christian, It’s Gonna Be CRAP.”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
My bailiwick is F&SF, from my days as a litfan in the Seventies. And I noticed four ironclad tropes in Christianese attempts as SF:
1) NO ALIENS. “There are NO Aliens. Only Fallen Ones come to deceive us. No, I am not a Conspiracy crackhead.”
2) NO SEMI-HUMANS/GENETIC CONSTRUCTS. Same reason as NO ALIENS.
3) NO STORIES SET OFF EARTH. “Because then God can’t Rapture us to Heaven.”
4) NO STORIES SET MORE THAN TWENTY MINUTES INTO THE FUTURE. “Because Christ is Coming Soon and It’s All Gonna Burn.”
Around 10 years ago, I got confirmation of the above in the form of this online essay (reprinted as Guest Editorial on my writing partner’s blog):
https://alanloewen.blogspot.com/2016/09/guest-editorial-why-is-christian.html
Yes, you heard that right. The ONLY “SF” Christians are PERMITTED to write is Near-Future Persecution Dystopias with End Times Prophecy tie-ins. That’s It. (And don’t forget the Altar Call Ending!)
Usually AFTER when they’re knocking off jumps the shark. They always seem to wait until the trend is on its way out before they bring out its much-ballyhooed CHRISTIAN imitation.
As for your question, it’s called “Of The World But NOT In It”.
“ALL INFORMATION YEARNS TO BE FREEEEEEEE!!!!!”
Amazingly comparable to Socialist Realism.
Why?
Because most fundagelicals don’t have an original thought in their heads.
And if they do, it’s usually dismissed as not being in compliance with the ‘gospel’ message.
That’s why they (most of them) cannot do art for art’s sake.
Maybe ‘cuz life to some is just hanging out like a hair on a biscuit. With disconnect of the most extreme kind. Moreover, not much going on, and makes anyone of sound mind want to gag.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
These people may have bought themselves a lawsuit or two,
If so want to guess the first thing we hear about it is “Religious Persecution”?
“We are definitely going to be pushing for more details on the investigation, though that may be difficult. But one of the most interesting things, I think, for me and a lot of evangelicals is going to be how this kind of plays into this broader rift between the conservative Southern Baptist leaders and this uber-conservative group that has been kind of opposed to abuse reforms. And I do think that there is some fear on the survivor community that that group is going to try to, you know, take this and run with it as part of this broader narrative that they’ve been pushing, that the abuse reforms are kind of a Trojan horse for liberalism and all sorts of things that they frame as attacks on their conservative faith despite the people pushing for those reforms also being themselves very conservative.” (Robert Downen, NPR interview)
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/14/1117418889/the-doj-is-investigating-southern-baptists-for-mishandling-sex-abuse-allegations
It’s all about them nasty liberals trying to do us in! It’s an attack by the devil! etc.
It’s all about the aliens!
Did Erich Von Daniken and Chris de Burgh teach us nothing?
…therefore anybody who notices misdeeds is automatically a liberal or a demon, but I repeat myself, bla bla bla…
I guess ‘dumb’ is highly preferable to ‘college educated’ among the sheeple.
Or else how can a respectable preacher get his sheep to pay for a second private jet for him to have on hand?
‘Dumb’ serves a purpose, hence the extreme far right contempt for ‘enlightenment’. 🙂
Speaking of strange times, has anyone seen THIS?
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/national-conservatism-a-statement-of-principles/
THE NEW TERM FOR ‘DUMB’? Try ‘natcon’
And National Socialist Realism (i.e. Hakenkreuz instead of Hammer & Sickle).
From Alternate History Hub:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDq8vQ0t67A
Only Art for PROPAGANDA’s Sake.
Here’s Internet Monk’s two-part take on the subject:
1) Selling Jesus by the Pound: https://imonk.blog/2010/07/01/selling-jesus-by-the-pound/
2) Surprise! God Does Art!: https://imonk.blog/2010/07/01/surprise-god-does-art/
(Also check the comment threads, though the archive comments do not nest like the original site’s and are in reverse order, so any comment threads are going to be hard to follow.)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Here are two other online essays I couldn’t find when doing the original comment. By Brit SF author Simon Morden:
1) Sex, Death, and Christian Fiction (2005): https://bookofmorden.co.uk/essays/sex-death-and-christian-fiction/
2) Where Are We Now? (Sequel, 2011): https://bookofmorden.co.uk/essays/where-are-we-now/
They Said the Magic Words, now they’re just waiting around to be Raptured into Heaven for the never-ending Bible Study.
“PERSECUTION!!!!!!!”
i.e. PROOF that THEY are Living Godly in Christ Jesus and thus are RIGHT.
The pulpit in some corners of the American church discourages “See something, say something” in order to protect bad-boy dudebros. So, they bring out the “touch not mine anointed”, “don’t gossip” and “Jezebel” verses to shame the pew into silence.
This is a big battle in a lot of churches. The last Baptist church I attended started passing out earplugs, but would announce in the services that the sound levels were not up for discussion(!). I sat all the way in the back and it was painful.
I snuck in my decibal meter (I played bass for many years), and it was 105. They claimed that it was within safe levels, but that’s pushing it for a half hour of it every week. There was also not a lot of variation in the dynamics of their music until right at the end of the set where they did their requisite short moody song to emotionally compromise people for offerings.
Incidentally, I went to a hearing specialist a few years ago and have some moderate hearing loss now.
ishy,
Years ago we would take a grandchild to church with us that had perfect pitch and was sensitive to loud noises. Music was important to her, and from around the age of 1 on she would escape to under the pew hands over her ears. At around 3 I asked her why and she told me church music is too loud, it hits my inside ears and hurts. So we changed to a much quieter church. End of toddler behavior problems, and she loved participating in the music.
That seems to fall on its own category of abusive. Plus, with the reported nonnegotiable attitude of that, how likely is it that this was part of a ploy to drive out the old guard and consolidate power in top-down relationships with the younger generation?
Yeah, one would think, but the church got A LOT of money from their television ministry, where I think most of the watchers were elderly. The worship wasn’t filmed as part of the tv show, though, just the sermon.
But I wasn’t that old and it HURT. It was one of the final things that drove me away, along with an extreme distaste of the SBC.
Do they still do this kinda’ horse-poo-poo?
And if so, am I being too harsh by saying that they’re brain-dead?
Max,
Thx for posting this NPR interview. Rob Downen at the Houston Chronicle does good work.
At one of the old sports arenas they had a decibel meter for a few years, and when it would get over 100, it would light up. It generally only would do so at rare moments, and I think I only saw it get up to about 103 for a matter of moments each time. (I’ve since developed what I think is a good habit of having earplugs with me, I think it has served me well and not deprived me a whit of the experience.)
There have been enough events since that seemed to show many of today’s sound mixers at concerts and at events with piped-in music are not concerned with proportion as much as overwhelming with volume. At a church setting, having those sound levels not up for discussion seems ridiculous, yet it apparently fits in with somebody’s agenda.
Both of my sons are hearing impaired and wear hearing aids. This, I am confident, is the result of them attending “heavy-metal” concerts – without my knowledge and/or permission. They are in their 50’s and I have (of necessity) learned to speak loud since they don’t always wear them. Grrr….
It’s emotional manipulation. Our bodies have an emotional reaction to any noise above around 95 dB. It’s the loudness, not the Holy Spirit, that arouses people.
That figure is very wrong. Much over 70 is pretty bad for anyone’s learning.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I think you are right. It’s physiological manipulation and one that causes damage to the body. It is not from God in any way, shape, or form.
I mean, I played bass for years, and if I think it’s painfully loud, it probably is.
Regarding this, and also the discussion in the right hand column, as stated:
According to Old and New Testaments, the worship of God is to not stunt the growth of fellow adopted widows and orphans in Father’s firm.
The praise of God is to show Him we know He is the One to go shopping from without price for our fellows and for all needy.
I believe in shopping list prayer.
Michael in UK,
Does anyone see why God DOES need worship? The sense I described is its ONLY definition in and from Scripture. Was this known?
Do they not think God STANDS UP for children, invalids and agnostics of goodwill?
Who is this who comes from Edom?
I was appalled – no-one was with Me.
My own right arm saved Me.
This is why my garments are red.
(Edom = red soil country)
(from somewhere in Isaiah)
Piper, Macarthur, Falwell Senior (not Junior), Zacharias * and associates, all the Hillsong hoodlums, Robertson, Johnson, the popes – they taught everyone not to pray and have abolished providence.
Holy Trinity models room for the other other, namely the widows and orphans. Holy Spirit brought gifts unvetoed. This is how there is no Other Comforter than Him. This is the only way we’ll see Father or Jesus.
This is why it is better to call oneself an agnostic.
{ * after he was got at on his hospital bed, which should not have been done to any 17 year old }
Any advance on 50 min utes after which the vicar ALWAYS said “that was anointed wasn’t it”. Well am I supposed to heckle?
Debbie was such a fine pianist and singer (and we might have wanted to join in), and the “amplifying ministers” who always get thanked, have to obliterate it.
Every time I arrived at the (real) right time, I had to smack VERY HARD on a window as they had locked the door, in a genteel neighbourhood.
They are still at it, with a new vicar.
That was not the first place I had commented.
The trick employed by the “reformed” is not to praise their own ideas as better than mine, not even to grunt, but merely stare.
Nothing to do with age, but a local park had such a problem with drugged addicts hanging out there that they worked with the city to pipe in classical music (at a reasonable volume) 24/7. Addicts gone. They hate the music.
I think it’s odd, not knowing what is so offensive about a little classical music softly wafting through the airwaves in the park.
Fact: Music attracts some while repelling others.
No, it’s a different issue. Irrespective of hearing damage, we all have an emotional response to loud noises. No one can avoid this above around 95 dB. It doesn’t matter what the noise is. The spiritual feeling some feel with loud music is purely physical, and some churches use this to manipulate people.
Just like the “Parasymp Organs” used by The Heirarchy (religious-dictatorship dystopia) in Fritz Leiber’s Gather, Darkness! The sounds manipulated the worshippers and made them totally receptive to The Heirachy’s propaganda.
I don’t think I’d frame worship as meeting God’s needs. Worship helps me rearrange my priorities, help me improve. I feel more able and loved, less helpless, more calm. This can happen at home, in times of dedicated prayer. To me it’s very meaningful to worship in a group, in a place dedicated to God.
Agreed to both. My private conception of “prayer” (in its conventional, non-spectacular mode of efficacy — one could argue that Nehemiah chapter 1 is an exemplary biblical precedent for this view) is that the articulation of what I hope it will please God to do may be a means by which God changes me to involve me in the solution to the problem that occupies my attention — it might be that this is how God intends to ‘answer’ specific petitions. I want the world to be different, and I hope that it will please God to make that happen, but it may be that part of that is that I will become different, too.
(I have to credit Paul Tripp for stimulating this evolution of my thinking. In his “Methods of Biblical Change” class, taught at WTS for a number of decades prior to his departure from WTS/CCEF into independent ministry, he taught that there is a boundary between what we are responsible for and what we are merely concerned about; within the “circle of responsibility”, we must carefully do what is right; beyond that boundary, in the ‘circle of concern’, we should pray. As presented, it was a static vision; the boundary was not explicitly moveable. One could add that one of the concerns about which one should pray is the question of “precisely where does the boundary lie and should I involve myself in this matter that I currently regard to lie beyond my ‘circle of responsibility’?”)
And a lot of Worship(TM) is more like “If This Is Too Loud, YOU’RE TOO OLD!” Raves for God.
(All that’s missing is the MDMA/Ecstasy Communion.)
I got a big chuckle out of this.
The Door is paying unspecified damages to the copyright owners of Hamilton who will donate the damage payment to the “South Texas Equality Project, a coalition of organisations that supports the LGBTQ community and LGBTQ-friendly businesses in South Texas.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62663310