(Former President of SBC) Johnny Hunt is accused of molesting the wife of a pastor. link
“As a Convention, we did not hold our own leaders accountable, and we did not listen to the warnings. ” Guidepost Report
Whoa- there is so much to say, and it will take a few posts. In 2009, shortly after starting this blog, TWW called for Paige Patterson’s resignation. This coincided with SEBTS holding a big, showy ceremony to dedicate Paige Patterson Hall on the campus. All of his best buddies were there, including a young future President of the SBC. We received some nasty comments about our suggestion. We were just ahead of the curve, and we were proven right. When I started writing in 2009, I knew how poorly I believe my former SBC church handled a bunch of young teens being molested by a student at SEBTS. They worked hard to put some lipstick on the situation, but it wasn’t good. Little did I know just how deep the corruption in the SBC went.
I am gone, thankfully, and find some peace in my Lutheran church. However, there is a comparison that will dog those who remain in the SBC and are not part of the 1.1 Million who left in the last three years. There will be the inevitable comparison to the Roman Catholic Church, which most Baptists will find irritating. In my experience, the Catholic church is not looked highly on by the Baptists. I remember those members and pastors who claimed that there was so much abuse being reported because the priests couldn’t marry. I wasn’t having any of it. A normal male priest who wants to violate his vows would do so with a consenting adult, not a little kid. I think the Catholic Church hid this problem for decades, and those abusers (and their friends) rose to positions of power and hung the green light out for other pedophiles to join a religion that gives them a nice uniform, housing, and respect.
This report by the SATF seems to indicate to me that the SBC has been doing the same thing. The leaders have covered up the abuse and even counseled abusers on how to handle “difficult questions that might arise.”
I didn’t know how to approach this report. I am still reading through it and making notes. This means the reader will have to endure a few more “I told you so” posts. However, I need your help. Please point out what you found disgusting if you read the report.
Links to the Report.
Here is a link to the Overview of the Report.
Here is a link to the Independent Investigation Report.
Links to media reports along with some points I found interesting.
BBC posted: Southern Baptist Convention vilified sex abuse survivors – report
The document also discloses for the first time that the executive committee maintained a list of its ministers who were facing abuse allegations but – despite calls for a public database – kept its findings secret.
…It makes a series of recommendations including: creating an independent commission that would oversee reforms in the handling of sexual misconduct, and restricting the use of non-disclosure agreements and civil settlements by the accused.
…The SBC executive committee will hold a special meeting Tuesday to discuss the report.
Writing for Christianity Today, Russell Moore wrote: This Is the Southern Baptist Apocalypse.
The abuse investigation has uncovered more evil than even I imagined.
…The conclusions of the report are so massive as to almost defy summation. It corroborates and details charges of deception, stonewalling, and intimidation of victims and those calling for reform. It includes written conversations among top Executive Committee staff and their lawyers that display the sort of inhumanity one could hardly have scripted for villains in a television crime drama.
…callous cover-ups by some SBC leaders and credible allegations of sexually predatory behavior by some leaders themselves, including former SBC president Johnny Hunt
…My mouth fell open when I read documented proof in the report that these very people not only knew how to have a database, they already had one.
Allegations of sexual violence and assault were placed, the report concludes, in a secret file in the SBC Nashville headquarters. It held over 700 cases. Not only was nothing done to stop these predators from continuing their hellish crimes, staff members were reportedly told not to even engage those asking about how to stop their child from being sexually violated by a minister. Rather than a database to protect sexual abuse victims, the report reveals that these leaders had a database to protect themselves.
…Who cannot now see the rot in a culture that mobilizes to exile churches that call a woman on staff a “pastor” or that invite a woman to speak from the pulpit on Mother’s Day, but dismisses rape and molestation as “distractions”
Kate Shellnit, writing for Christianity Today: Southern Baptists Refused to Act on Abuse, Despite Secret List of Pastors
The investigation centers responsibility on members of the EC staff and their attorneys and says the hundreds of elected EC trustees were largely kept in the dark. EC general counsel Augie Boto and longtime attorney Jim Guenther advised the past three EC presidents—Ronnie Floyd, Frank Page, and Morris Chapman—that taking action on abuse would pose a risk to SBC liability and polity, leading the presidents to challenge proposed abuse reforms.
As renewed calls for action emerged with the #ChurchToo and #SBCToo movements, Boto referred to advocacy for abuse survivors as “a satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism.”
…Christa Brown, a longtime advocate who experienced sexual abuse by her pastor at 16, said her “countless encounters with Baptist leaders” who shunned and disbelieved her “left a legacy of hate” and communicated “you are a creature void of any value—you don’t matter.” As a result, she said, instead of her faith providing solace, her faith has become “neurologically networked with a nightmare.” She referred to it as “soul murder.”
…. One former president—pastor Johnny Hunt—sexually assaulted another pastor’s wife in 2010, investigators found.
…The Guidepost inquiry included privileged legal communications on abuse over the past 20 years, a provision that led EC president Ronnie Floyd to resign in October and the law firm of Guenther, Jordan & Price to withdraw their services after 60 years.
…Guenther worked alongside Boto, an attorney who was involved in the EC from the 1990s to 2019, serving as a trustee, vice president, general counsel, and interim president. He was an ally of Paige Patterson during the Conservative Resurgence. (Last year, Boto was barred from holding any positions with Southern Baptist entities as a result of a legal settlement involving financial moves after Patterson was fired from an SBC seminary over mishandling a rape allegation.)
Boto and Guenther turned every discussion of abuse to a discussion of protecting the EC from legal liability, making that the highest priority, the report said.
…Boto saw the Devil at work in their efforts. In an email obtained by Guidepost, he wrote:
This whole thing should be seen for what it is. It is a satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism. It is not the gospel. It is not even a part of the gospel. It is a misdirection play. Yes, Christa Brown and Rachael Denhollander have succumbed to an availability heuristic because of their victimizations. They have gone to the SBC looking for sexual abuse, and of course, they found it. Their outcries have certainly caused an availability cascade. … But they are not to blame. This is the devil being temporarily successful.
Associated Press posted Report: Top Southern Baptists stonewalled sex abuse victims.
“Our investigation revealed that, for many years, a few senior EC leaders, along with outside counsel, largely controlled the EC’s response to these reports of abuse … and were singularly focused on avoiding liability for the SBC,” the report said.
Among the report’s key recommendations:
— Form an independent commission and later establish a permanent administrative entity to oversee comprehensive long-term reforms concerning sexual abuse and related misconduct within the SBC.
—Create and maintain an Offender Information System to alert the community to known offenders.
— Provide a comprehensive Resource Toolbox including protocols, training, education, and practical information.
Two observations from the report.
I plan to go through the report and post what jumped out at me. Obviously, it’s going to take some time. Today, I began that process and am stunned by the number of distressing reports found within the report.
Three SBC presidents and Paul Pressler refused to speak with the investigators from Guidepost. Augie Boto dodged the requests, and they finally sent someone to knock on the door of his residence to get some information.
It will not surprise anyone why Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler refused to speak. Amy Smith could write a book on why Graham isn’t speaking. What was disturbing to me was how these supposed men of God didn’t even respond promptly to the requests. I wonder if they know how that looks to the average person. It makes them look guilty. I believe they are staying quiet because they were told to do so by their attorneys.
Three Presidents declined to speak with us: Dr. Bobby Welch, Dr. Jack Graham, and Dr. Paige Patterson. Dr. Welch cited health reasons. Dr. Graham offered access to his Presidential Papers in lieu of an interview; after we confirmed that we already had access to those papers, we received no response to our interview request. A key leader, Judge Paul Pressler, also declined to speak to us. Judge Pressler is a former SBC Vice President, a former EC member, and a long-time SBC influencer.
We sent a certified letter to Dr. Patterson on March 12, 2022, and received a certified signature receipt dated April 1, 2022. However, we did not receive a response to our letter. We called Dr. Patterson’s three listed phone numbers provided by the EC on March 11, 2022. Guidepost was able to leave a voicemail on one of the phone numbers, but did not receive a response. The Committee on Cooperation also sent a letter to Dr. Patterson on March 30, 2022, asking that he allow himself to be interviewed by Guidepost Solutions.13 On April 6, 2022, Dr. Patterson responded with a letter to Dr. Litton, indicating that he had not received communication from Guidepost to seek an interview. He stated in his letter to Dr. Litton that “In an effort to cooperate with the request of Guidepost Solutions to the Executive Committee, I violated my policy and allowed access [by my lawyers] to my presidential files in the Southern Baptist Archives. Any questions Guidepost Solutions would like to ask me can be sent to my attorney Shelby Sharpe for review; and if he deems them appropriate, I will answer them in writing.”14
On April 6, 2022, Guidepost sent a final letter to Dr. Patterson’s attorney asking that, although Dr. Patterson does not have a practice of granting interviews, he consider making an exception due to Dr. Patterson’s role in the EC.17 Mr. Shelby passed on Dr. Patterson’s response in lieu of an interview, that “the subject of sexual abuse was not something that came to the Executive Committee or the Credentials Committee to his best recollection during the last six months of his presidency [which was in the scope of the investigation].”18
…We made multiple attempts to contact Mr. Augie Boto, the former EC General Counsel, by letter, email, text, and phone. Through SBC records and our own research, we identified five possible phone numbers for Mr. Boto, which we ultimately learned were not in service or incorrect. When we called a sixth number, Mr. Boto identified himself on the voice greeting, but the voice mailbox was full. We sent a text message to that number but received no response. Finally, on May 6, 2022, Guidepost investigators went to Mr. Boto’s residence to ask in person for an interview. Mr. Boto initially stated that he did not want to make a statement, citing his former position as EC General Counsel as the reason he could not speak to us. However, he did engage in conversation with our investigators for approximately an hour and give his views on various topics related to the investigation.
…One key figure was Augie Boto, who was hired in 1998 as Vice President for Convention Policy and became the EC General Counsel in 2004. In his position as General Counsel, Mr. Boto guided the EC’s response to sexual abuse allegations, advising the various EC Presidents under whom he served – Dr. Morris Chapman, Dr. Frank Page, and Dr. Ronnie Floyd. Mr. Boto and these leaders also relied on the assistance of the SBC’s external counsel: Mr. Guenther, who had represented the SBC since 1966, and GJP.
The obvious comparison to the Catholic church comes up.
Esquire posted. There’s a Chilly Efficiency to the Southern Baptists’ Approach To Sexual Abuse Scandals.
The findings of nearly 300 pages include shocking new details about specific abuse cases and shine a light on how denominational leaders for decades actively resisted calls for abuse prevention and reform. Evidence in the report suggests leaders also lied to Southern Baptists over whether they could maintain a database of offenders to prevent more abuse when top leaders were secretly keeping a private list for years. The report—the first investigation of its kind in a massive Protestant denomination like the SBC—is expected to send shock waves throughout a conservative Christian community that has had intense internal battles over how to handle sex abuse. The 13 million-member denomination, along with other religious institutions in the United States, has struggled with declining membership for the past 15 years. Its leaders have long resisted comparisons between its sexual abuse crisis and that of the Catholic Church, saying the total number of abuse cases among Southern Baptists was small.
Oops. Not so much, no.
…The parallels between how the SBC and the Catholic Church worked to bury these scandals are specific and striking, although there is a certain chilly business-school efficiency in the SBC’s approach, whereas the Catholic cover-ups smelled vaguely of incense.
In an April 2007 email, the convention’s attorney sent Boto a memo explaining how a SBC database could be implemented consistent with SBC polity, saying “it would fit our polity and present ministries to help churches in this area of child abuse and sexual misconduct.” The report states that he recommended “immediate action to signal the Convention’s desire that the [executive committee] and the entities begin a more aggressive effort in this area.” That same year, aftera Southern Baptist pastor made a motion for a database, Boto rejected the idea. For a denomination designed to give more democratic power to its lay leaders or “messengers” who voted to commission the third-party investigation, the report shows how lay Southern Baptists allowed a few key leaders, including Boto and the convention’s longtime lawyer, James Guenther, to control the national institutional response to sex abuse for decades.
I predict that the SBC will have trouble attracting new members. They will need to emphasize stealth churches that never tell their members they are part of the SBC. Didn’t JD Greear do that at the Summit?
Much more to come including more about the infamous abuser list kept by leaders and more about Johnny Hunt’s implosion.
Moore is correct. Crisis is not a strong enough word. Apocalypse is a better word for this.
And all that hard work making it all about Complementarianism in the SBC. It’s going to be hard to say that Comp doctrine protects women now.
As I recall, Johnny Hunt was buds with Ravi Zacharias …
Max,
The recall is strong in this one. So glad you are doing better. In fact, Johnny frequented Ravi’s massage parlors.
“I predict that the SBC will have trouble attracting new members. They will need to emphasize stealth churches that never tell their members they are part of the SBC.” (Dee)
SBC’s New Calvinist church plants have been doing that for years. Most members don’t know they are Southern Baptists. Any affiliation with SBC is neatly tucked away in a remote corner of the church website, if at all. It’s just part of the NeoCal modus operandi of stealth and deception.
Max,
JD Greear is the king of this approach. I met many of his church members who would adamantly declare they were not SBC (and JD is also a Calvinist. )I told them they were and they would get mad at me. Then, the video in the linked post above of him telling them he was running for SBC President and yes, they are in the SBC. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Seeing better each day. And when I saw this piece, I had to jump in! I provided several comments on your earlier post about this mess, which was not a post 🙂
Note: Anne Marie Miller was on the PBS News Hour this evening, relating her sad SBC story.
Yup, real Christ followers in this buunch..
He wrote the playbook.
The authority and influence of Jesus are waning in the SBC.
There is a new church near where I live that heavily advertises on FB. One of my friends has been encouraging me to check it out. I discovered it is on the SBC directory, but they are completely stealth about it. I sent them two emails asking them if they are SBC and I got crickets. I asked my friend about it and gave a link to the SBC directory, after having told him my concerns with the SBC. Haven’t heard from him in weeks (I don’t think he knew it is SBC). A few days ago I asked them via thier FB ad if they are SBC. No answer. Others have asked them their denomination on FB and they deflect. I will never, ever be involved with another SBC church again. The only thing I trust about the SBC is their ability to boldy lie.
From the report via Dee’s post above:
Boto “This is the devil being temporarily successful.”
Boto would know since the devil was looking at him every morning from the mirror. As the devil was looking at who knows how many leaders and abusers from their mirrors every morning.
They are utterly bereft of any moral compass. Vilifying victims. Saying they can’t keep a database to protect children when they were keeping one to protect themselves and the denomination.
Every one of them should be compelled to appear in front of the yearly meeting to be publicly de-frocked and kicked out and made an example of – just like it says to in the Bible.
They thought they had distractions before. The next 10 years is going to be one help of a long miserable distraction for them.
Thx for mentioning this. I found it on YouTube.
They all find each other. The deceivers.
The thing about the celibacy is that the relationship between it and clerical sexual abuse isn’t open to a simple explanation.
Of course the simplistic reasoning you reject, that celibacy makes you a paedophile, is wrong.
BUT
Surely everybody reading this blog knows that ministry is a magnet to people with problems…. and celibacy magnifies that. If you have any sort of sexual problem, whether inadequacy, feeling it’s dirty, being unable to tell mum why you never bring a nice girl home …it seems like a profession where you give the impression you don’t have sex will solve that problem.
In reality it’s magnified, and when you add that they really haven’t sussed that people who are actually celibate come to it naturally rather than deciding on it, they don’t have a way to teach priests how to be celibate.
Because there isn’t one.
And they’re not.
I like to think I can’t be shocked at this stage but this is getting close. This is the ultimate in deceit if you can’t admit something that should be on the sign outside. I hope the people asking ran away quickly.
Ten years? Last week I reflected that the Archdiocese of Santa Fe agreed to pay $121 million to victims of priestly sex abuse in order to get out of bankruptcy, and the first of the Spotlight articles was published in January 2002. That’s 20 years. The SBC is going to be *lucky* if it’s only 20 years. And yeah, the Catholic sex abuse scandal drove out some of the faithful who just couldn’t deal with it anymore. The same is going to happen to the SBC and may already be happening.
Slowly making my way through the report. I think I need an org chart to understand how all these committees relate to another.
Is it just my imagination, or is the office of SBC president more figurehead than not?
The member churches of the SBC should stop sending in their tithes to any of the SBC organizations.
Well, a bit of mea culpa here. In comments on the Oct 12, 2021 post here entitled “The Lawyers Who Have Defended the SBC for 50 Years Have Severed Ties With the SBC!” I answered a query about why the EC’s lawyers would resign by quoting a bit of those lawyers letters that Dee had omitted. In retrospect, that bit I quoted now feels like spin by presenting part but not all of the truth, since, as the report says (page 9, paragraph 2) “… outside counsel were deeply involved in managing the EC’s response to sexual abuse allegations.”
I haven’t gotten past that page of the report yet. So I don’t know how bad I’m going to end up feeling their involvement was. I know it won’t be all bad, as the report also says early on (page 8, first bullet point) “A 2007 proposal for an SBC database of accused molesters was rejected in 2008 based on church autonomy, even though SBC outside counsel had submitted a memo to Mr. Boto discussing how it could be accomplished consistent with polity”.
In my experience, the Catholic church is not looked highly on by the Baptists.
You mean The Whore of Babylon(TM)?
Satan’s Counterfeit “church”?
Persecutor and killer of Real True Christians on the Trail of Blood?
Mystery Babylon Religon(TM) worshipping a Satanic Trinity of Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz?
According to Maria Monk, “Father” Chiniquy, Alberto Rivera, and all those other Ex-Papists for JESUS?
(And that’s just off the top of my head, which the same Catholic church duct-taped back together after the Real True Christians tore it apart. Though like Frodo after he bore The Ring, some of the damage is still there.)
As a life long celibate, just no.
Please stop trying to equate being celibate to being a weirdo with issues that goes on to sexually abuse people.
Baptist churches prefer to hired married men who are presumably, I’d take it, having sex with their wives.
Southern Baptists don’t consider hiring singles (celibates) for pastoral positions.
There was a single guy who graduated from seminary who was interviewed years ago about how he couldn’t get hired as a preacher (Baptist, I believe) because he didn’t have a wife.
You may be getting Baptists confused with Roman Catholics who I still think require their priests to be celibate.
The very definition of sex pervert would be people who are actually engaging in sex acts – celibates by definition are not having sex.
I can’t say as though I agree with how you’re presenting it there.
As I said above, I’m a life long celibate, I didn’t choose to be celibate per se (meaning, I had expected to marry at some point in life and having sex with a spouse, but I remain single as a Mr. Right never entered the picture),
and no,
God doesn’t grant anyone with a “gift of celibacy” (I didn’t ask or seek to be celibate and single indefinitely) nor does God remove one’s libido.
That’s not how it works.
I’m celibate out of self discipline, from not wanting to get STDs, and other such considerations, etc. etc., but not due to some mystical, supernatural “Gifting” that just comes so shucky darn naturally. I wouldn’t put it that way.
i.e. Top Shyster.
Just like a Mob Consigliere.
“Become a lawyer. One man with a briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns.”
— Mario Puzo, The Godfather
As well as providing LOTS of material for talk radio.
Local afternaoon drive-time during and after the Catholic sex abouse scandal (known on the air as “Pedo Priests”) had a field day for years, appending “-Pedophile” to every clergy tiele (“Father-Pedophile”, “Bishop-Pedophile”, “Archbishop-Pedophile”, etc), canonizing Pope John Paul II as “Patron Saint of Child Molesters”, and how Catholics are against birth control “so their Priests have more kids to molest”.
It even got to the point that two SF anthologies I was involved with had submissions who tried to meet the editor’s “Catholic Content” requirement by having their main character raped by a Priest during their childhood.
And all through this the SBC and their ilk were pointing fingers and Piously intoning “WE THANK THEE, LOOOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMISH PRIESTS OVER THERE…”
Moore: “My mouth fell open when I read documented proof in the report that these very people not only knew how to have a database, they already had one.“
“These very people“? Given the timeline of Moore’s involvement with SBC bureaucracy (which seems to undermine the distancing that “these very people“ seems to imply), does anyone else not necessarily want to hear analysis right off the bat from him on this?
Many public municipalities have salaries of individuals available for public scrutiny. Should there be less accountability, transparency, and oversight with church, parachurch, and denominational funds?
How many people are encouraged to go into autopilot on that and just leave things to the higher ups in broad terms like relief, mercy, church building/planting, etc.? How many gladly do so as long as they get want they want, which too often may boil down to social time, entertainment, daycare, networking, etc.? How many of the stealth SBC plants feed right into that and fit right into the widespread Christian Industrial Complex as Max has termed it?
Reminds me of David Platt and McLean Bible Church. Per an article from 3/23/17:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/david-platt-joins-mclean-bible-church-as-interim-pastor-megachurchs-senior-pastor-stepping-down-177910/
https://blackchristiannews.com/2017/03/david-platt-joins-mclean-bible-church-as-interim-teaching-pastor-senior-pastor-lon-solomon-stepping-down-after-over-36-years-of-leading/
“McLean Bible Church was founded as a nondenominational church but according to McGowan, McLean “began cooperating with Southern Baptists in 2016” and is now “the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area.””
“McGowan further explained to CP: “In accordance with the SBC Constitution, Article III, McLean Bible Church declared its affirmation of a faith and practice in doctrinal harmony with The Baptist Faith and Message, its commitment to become a cooperating church with the Southern Baptist Convention [April 2016], and has contributed to Convention work through the Cooperative Program Allocation Budget.”
And yet, here’s what was posted on the church’s “Who We Are” page, per an archived web page from October 23, 2016 (which I believe was later than ‘April 2016’):
http://web.archive.org/web/20161023005226/https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are
“We’re a “Bible Church.” The Bible is our standard of faith and practice, and we are of no specific Christian denomination.”
That snippet had evidently been excised by July 2017 (while Platt was apparently still in place at the IMB despite the announcement regarding his joining McLean). Yet, I couldn’t find a word on the “Who We Are“ page indicating that the SBC is part of that, let alone such a prominent part as “the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area” — another important fact that did not appear to be disclosed there as a part of who they are:
http://web.archive.org/web/20170531200106/https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are
If money from the church is going somewhere out there, what kind of ethics or basic disclosure obligations would have levels of apparent obscuring of affiliations and monetary partnerships held as acceptable?
Following up on my post above. The report’s final conclusion about the outside legal counsel is both non-surprising for legal counsel and simultaneously terrible.
From page 190: “In many respects, the EC’s concern about liability, and its action or inaction regarding sexual abuse, has been guided by legal advice. … Even as SBC Presidents changed and EC staff retired, [outside lawyers] remained an institutional source of knowledge in terms of Baptist policy, risk management and counsel.
“Behind the curtain, the lawyers were advising to say nothing and do nothing, even when the callers were identifying predators still in SBC pulpits. …
From page 192: “Overall, the legal advice focused on liability created a chilling effect on the ability of the EC to be compassionate towards survivors of abuse. Survivors were always viewed through the lends of potential plaintiffs threatening lawsuits, rather than as individuals who had been harmed and were in need of care.”
When you go to legal counsel for advise, minimizing liability will always be a concern. The choice to go to legal counsel for advise is not made by the legal counsel one goes to. The culture of going to legal counsel was the responsibility of EC staff. And the priorities for the advice to be given by the lawyers should also have been set by the EC staff or EC trustees.
I don’t think I phrased it that well, because if I understand you right you’re saying exactly what I meant.
Mourning for those who suffered harm…
Not to diminish the gravity of depravity in the SBC fiasco, but be careful when referring to the Roman Catholic Church and the American Roman Catholic Church. The latter is indeed roughly similar, but the worldwide RCC (as an institution) has a very, very long history of deeds done in darkness and a peculiar pathology when it comes to matters of human sexuality – look what was done to Abelard at a time priests were still allowed to marry! We aren’t talking about decades or even centuries, but millennia.
And we should be careful of particularizing the SBC. What sets them apart is not the nature of the problem, but its scale. There are small denominations in the US with the same problem, and recounted at length on TWW, individual neocalvinist churches run by undereducated dudebros waving membership NDAs at their members.
We would be wise to take heed that we think we stand, lest we fall.
And thank you TWW for shining a small flashlight into the darkest corners of churchianity. Your vigilance helps us keep watch, too.
Ever heard of the term “Corban”?
“One hand washes the other…”
Why do you even need a church for that?
I got all of that (except for daycare) last night at Hobby Night at the local Knights of Columbus Hall. And from two clubs I belong to. Many years ago, I got the same at D&D games and SF conventions.
So if that’s all you’re going for, WHY CHURCH?
(Unless it’s to show off how CHRISTIAN(TM) you are.)
In many ways, this Guidepost report justifies/substantiates what TWW has been doing since its start.. i.e. exposing orgs/people that put themselves above victims…..
the corollary; we would not be here if orgs/people did “the right thing”…. And Christ clearly defined, and demonstrated what “the right thing” was…
Dee said,
Dee, back when Spotlight blew the lid on the Roman Catholic scandal, I remember talking with an old friend who was an Episcopal bishop. He said, “I’m afraid the Catholics are going to pay a high price for their priestly celibacy.” (At the time, the Episcopal Church was going through a different challenge, that of gay clergy and bishops, and the move toward various other Anglican options–and my friend, in his retirement, btw, has moved to the ACNA.)
Anyway, I’m with you, and I suspect my friend is by now, too. I’ll ask him when he’s here this summer. Celibacy was never the problem; power and pride are closer to the mark. And, as you’ve documented here at Wartburg Watch, and others have, like Jeri Massi with Independent Fundamental Churches over at Blog on the Way, these scandals are endemic in churches that don’t embrace full accountability. It could be that all-male leadership contributes to the lack of accountability (whether RC or SBC), but celibacy frustrations can have outlets other than abuse. of children.
It’s just the Christianese version of “Getting Laid Will Solve Everything” and “If you’re not doing somebody, YOU’RE A NOBODY.” (Plus Counting Coup on all those Filthy Romish Papists; the Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648 and even in 2022 some STILL haven’t gotten the word.)
All I can say is, “If you think AIDS is today’s Leprosy, you’ve never seen an adult Virgin get outed.”
This was one thing I found sickening. It was in a tweet shared by Rachael Denhollander:
“ . . . Boot financially supported and testified to the character of a former USA Gymnastics coach who was convicted of child sex offenses. Guidepost found that Boto told the man how to get in touch with children — INCLUDING BOTO’S OWN (all caps are mine) – through their parents so as to not raise suspicion from ‘the courts’ while he appealed his prison sentence. Boto represented himself as a Southern Baptist Convention official during those court proceedings, and gained special permission to minister to the man while he was behind bars . . .”
He told a convicted sex offender how to get in touch with children — INCLUDING HIS (Boto’s) OWN CHILDREN — through their parents so as to not raise suspicion from the courts.
Was he telling someone how to gain access to children so they could sexually abuse them??
I have no words except unprintable ones.
I’m not an expert in SBC polity, even though I studied at SEBTS, but I believe the president is a largely a figurehead position. However, what the president can do is nominate the committee on nominations. This is the committee that nominates all other exec committees of the various and asundry institutions.
You are an InCel in the original sense of the word, before the Santa Barbara Shooter and his followers/worshippers came on the scene. And for the exact same reason as me.
Unless (like those who still unable to walk after the faith healer did his thing) YOU have some Secret Sin, of course. In the words of an online comic, “Maybe if you didn’t poop in the bathtub, God wouldn’t hate you like this.”
Been there, done that, and some of the damage is permanent.
— Longing for Companionship in a world of F’ing (and Purity Culture is NOT an improvement)…
I did not earn an MDiv. I graduated with an MA in humanities (Christian Studies) because that was the fastest way to graduate with the credits I had earned.
Evangelical leaders continue to show us that they supported a serial adulterer and sexual predator for president not in spite of his awful qualities, but because of them.
AKA Doing the LOOORD’s Work.
“If you question what I say or do
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
In 1979 I was beginning my final year of work on my M.Div. at SEBTS. That was the year that “liberalism” was supposedly found in the SBC seminaries and used as the impetus to begin the “Conservative Resurgence.” It was the exercise of raw power, untrue narratives, aspersions cast on professors, churches, and anyone who did not accept the “party line.”
Fast forward 43 years: the power that took over the SBC grew to the extent that it has actively worked against victims and upheld the abusers.
From small acorns mighty oaks grow . . . And for you that have ever had an oak tree in your yard they look so tall and mighty on the outside until time or bad weather reveals that the great oak was hollow all the time when it falls.
Implications:
1. Every member of an SBC church should prayerfully review where they are sending their tithes and offerings.
2. Every SBC church should have a called business meeting expressly for the purpose of reconsidering the money the church sends to the Cooperative Program which supports the SBC.
3. State Baptist conventions should rethink their role in relating to the national convention.
4. The NeoCals will use this incident as reason for their “takeover” of the SBC at the convention in June. How would their theology explain the years of abuse and cover up? “God’s will?”
5. With politics and elections heating up and headed for the next presidential election in 2024, will the SBC join the political realm or will it “Do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God?” Pursuing the “soul of America” politically in the SBC would be a great diversion from its present ills.
“Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
What a shock, TGC’s 9Marx Joe Carter is claiming the SBC has no authority over its churches. Yes, technically…
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/faqs-sexual-abuse-southern-baptist/
And Now for Something Completely Different:
The Larch! (No…)
A Man with Three Buttocks! (No…)
Remember Seneca, alias “Jimmy”, alias a lot of sock-puppet handles when he tried to get back onto this blog after getting bounced off? Always took the side of the Abusers instead of the Abused?
He’s now the regular troll over at Wondering Eagle, with all the same Virtue-Signalling Halo-polishing Pious Smug Serenity that makes you just want to reach for the nearest heavy object.
I don’t know which is worse, ChapmanEd (former regular troll)’s Bible-quoting Viciousness or Seneca (current regular troll)’s Smug Serenity. Both ooze RIGHTEOUSness, but the latter reminds me way too much of the Angel of Light transformation masks of abusers exposed on this blog.
Just like Papa Chuck over Calvary Chapel.
Complete independence when that is to their advantage, a monolith moving in lockstep under Dear Leader when that is to their advantage. Disperse for defense, Concentrate to attack.
i.e. The year they smelled out the WITCHES and TROTSKYITES and GOLDSTEINISTS.
The Reichstag was Burning and the Purge was on.
Basically. The President mainly runs the yearly convention, and the real power is in nominating the committee on nominations. That’s how the takeover occurred, and why it took years. They can only nominate so many per year to the committee, so it takes time to replace them all, and then have the committee on nominations nominate the proper people over time to take over the other committees.
It is also why you can’t clean house quickly. They whole convention is set up to move slowly (not a bad thing in itself), so it becomes easy for a small cabal to control the narrative. Please understand me, I am not saying a small handful is all there way, clearly the problem is widespread. I’m simply stating how the small inner circle of Boto/Guenther/Jordan and their compatriots could maintain control.
A lot of my non-Christian friends have been asking me about this. Even some of my Baptist friends who I tried to warn about some of these issues are now all shocked by the revelations.
I am not surprised. I’m not even surprised about how bad the report is (I think it’s probably worse than that). I am a little surprised the report is as detailed as it is. I will admit I was doubtful about Guideposts. I am shocked about the revelation about Johnny Hunt hasn’t come out until now. He seemed skeevy back in the whole Ravi thing.
I think the most disturbing revelations were about Boto and how he handled just about everything. No wonder he was so adamantly against the report. He’s a sleezeball.
This, all of this, sums up my feelings. As an aside, I’ve seen some people already calling for an independent investigation of JUST Boto, and I can reasonably see that occurring.
What’s the cost involved? Overhead?
Orgs can run well with little to no overhead and no power hierarchy.
Pastoring is a gift from the Holy Spirit to the Body of Christ. Who pays for a gift?
Some religious orgs use church offices to establish a hierarchy of power instead of 18 gifts of the HS in lateral position following or under Jesus. With the hierarchy, the empowered leaders take constituents’ money via tithe theology, and then they take the women via complementarianism. Or, with Hybels, he goes after the women anyway. Power, $$$, vice.
Why don’t book clubs have these problems? There is no hierarchy of power.
Many have commented that the problem is power.
Members of the Body of Christ each have the power of their own gift of the HS to the church, and the second they step out of line with Jesus, they lose that gift, that power. Gone.
Time to listen to a TED talk:
https://youtu.be/wfW3aZCFfLA
Tina,
And just think… these “leaders” led the “largest Evangleical demonination”…. and we are suppose to “respect them”, and follow their “teaching”?????
Is this what we get for the “conservative resurgence”?? What exactly does “conservative” mean??
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10849281/Indiana-woman-forces-married-pastor-admit-affair-16-church.html
John,
Many conservative theologians believe that celibacy is the way for an LGBT person to deal with their sexual identity. Are you saying that this is a losing proposition?
However, I don’t want to get sidetracked. Marriage for Protestant pastors is allowed and yet we have an abuse problem akin to that in the Catholic Church.
Could you give me the name of the church? I might be interested in asking them about this approach
Afterburne,
This afternoon, I begin the long process of reading through every page and taking notes. There will be much, much more coming.
I am interested to see if there is any active recruitment of “young seminarians” into their inner sanctum. I have never been a conspiracy theorist, a position that made me less likely to make friends in the typical evangelical groups. However, in this situation, I’m considering some interesting thoughts on the matter. Don’t worry, I’ll settle down in a few days!
Yep…however, I think there are some financial benefits that go with that. For example, Johnny Hunt had a nice plum job with the NAMB until he saw the report and quit, descending into his hidey-hole.
Brian,
Today, I think everyone should withhold their tithes to any SBC church until they deal with this stuff. But, the faithful will believe this is just an attack of Satan.
I don’t really buy Moore’s “I saw it all along and stood against it” vibe, but his quote really stood out to me:
“For Southern Baptists of a certain age, this story is the equivalent of the Wittenberg door for Lutherans or Aldersgate Street for Methodists. The convention was saved from liberalism by the courage of these two men who wouldn’t back down, we believed. In fact, I taught this story to my students.
Those two mythical leaders are now disgraced. One was fired after alleged mishandling a rape victim’s report in an institution he led after he was documented making public comments about the physical appearance of teenage girls and his counsel to women physically abused by their husbands. The other is now in civil proceedings about allegations of the rape of young men.
We were told they wanted to conserve the old time religion. What they wanted was to conquer their enemies and to make stained-glass windows honoring themselves—no matter who was hurt along the way.”
What is missing is the New Calvinists were also all over that because it’s how they planned to gain control of all the institutions. They are just as guilty as the conservatives and I haven’t seen many of them standing up against it until it became really uncomfortable for them not to.
grberry,
I think all of us will remember some things we believed or perceived. AS My good friend Todd often says, “Having been a member of a Sovereign Grace Church, then a 9Marx church, there is reason to question my judgment.”
I join him having been a member of Ed Young Jr’s SBC church, the SBC church in Raleigh which, IMO, mishandled a sex abuse situation involving over 20 kids (the molester was a SEBTS student,), then joining a church that was taken over by a Calvinista.
We all have learned much from our travels.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
You’ve got that right. Thankfully, my Lutheran church pastors are friendly with the Catholic church in the area.
Washes?
JDV,
Interesting comment. Years ago, recorded on this blog, Moore said complementarianism was too soft. he preferred the term “patriarchy.” I have queried if he still believes this and still have not found an answer.
I think Moore played the game until he was outmaneuvered by insiders who had more to protect. Has he moved on? I admit I wonder.
grberry,
You are correct. When one goes to a lawyer, the lawyers will make sure to give advice that limits liability for the client. (BTW-thank you for following this closely in the report. I will be interested in hearing what you think as you read on.)
I think the question should be turned around in the beginning. “Mr lawyer, I’m interested in taking some risk to limit the number of people getting hurt by abusers. Help me think through this problem.” I have consulted a lawyer who has been most helpful to me as I take risks on this site.
Amen and amen.
I think this is a comment well worth repeating. The problem is in all church bodies.Not only that, but in community agencies as well.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/09/06/americas-leading-atheist-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-speaks-out/
Ted,
I agree. Sex abuse is not about sex. It’s about power and control. Thank you. for mentioning Jeri Massi who I have admired and even had the privilege of sharing lunch with her. (Love the Dr. Who connection as well.)
Tina,
This is what I mean. So, so much. I am slogging through the report and making notes. I found this example to be enraging.
Getting out of Dodge ASAP?
This is something that I have been pondering. Is this just a bunch of unrelated abusers who just happened to converge on the SBC or are there some groups within the organization that actually encourage this behavior? Spent some time last night, wide awake, thinking about this.
Darned insightful comment.
I just now sent you an email with the info.
dee,
I think about similar thoughts as well… One could ask this question about a number of “extreme positions” that “religous leaders” take..
Any “religious leader” that takes a extreme postion on a isuse, but does not also exhibt “love”, I do not listen to..
But, now, we go down the rabbit trail of what is “Love”
Full of fire and receipts twitter thread from Robert Downey at the Houston Chronicle.
https://twitter.com/RobDownenChron/status/1529084743727325184?t=2IRnvfJyQAoqlLXCcxzOdQ&s=19
dee,
I agree… the lawyer is just “doing their job”… The leaders need to lead, which, by definition, is to take “risk”…
re: Russell Moore’s choice of the word “Apocalypse”.
Most will hear the connotation “end of the world”, but the term actually means, more or less, ‘unveiling’. Moore’s title is a subtle double-entender. And ‘unveiling’ is especially appropriate to the topic — the report provides glimpses beneath the Emperor’s clothing.
Someone wise said, ‘when people show you who they are, believe them.’
Gets past the mods.
Plus, I’ve only heard the expression in the context of bribe-for-favors, kickbacks, and generally-shady business.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”, remember…
“Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) Get Rich, (2) Get Laid, or (3) Both.”
— my old Dungeonmaster
One imagines that Al Mohler is thanking God that he was not elected SBC President, perhaps an illustration, from AM’s point of view, that “God works all things for good …”
To the point of “Jesus? WHo’s He?”
I cannot believe he was surprised by anything in the report, except perhaps for anything the investigators missed. There is no way he could not have known how bad it was. He was either naively blind then or he is misrepresenting his involvement now. Which is worse?
Even with this Report nothing in the SBC leadership will change. There is too much power and money they will not willingly give up.
Dee:
Reader request:
As you work your way through the Report, it might be interesting to note whether there is evidence of a correlation between past events or trends in the history of the SBC and changes in the frequency of reports of abuse by church leaders. Presumably there is a progressive increase of such reports over time as people have become more willing to call out abuse, but it would be interesting whether this trend accelerated at some point or points.
Patterson and Pressler were key figures in the ‘conservative resurgence.’ In retrospect, one can interpret that to have been more about ‘power’ than ‘ministry’, and perhaps changes in institutional culture from ‘ministry’ toward ‘power’ promoted toleration of bad behavior.
Did the ‘conservative resurgence’ interact with a subculture of abuse? Did the neocalvinist takeover?
Just wondering.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Unfortunately, I think you are “right on the money” with that quote.
Ava Aaronson,
I think the problem here is that the hierarchy of power is essentially written into the Bible, right? In fact, lots of the hugely problematic stuff that churches struggle with now is a problem *because* it’s written into the Bible, thus Christians feel like they have to either comply with it, or find a good scriptural reason to scoot past it. For example the Matthew 18 procedure for conflict resolution doesn’t actually work very well, especially when there’s a big difference in power, or when there weren’t “two or three witnesses”.
Secular groups, like the atheist group I belonged to in Florida, or the dance communities I’m part of, don’t have that baggage to struggle with. Yeah, people can still be jerks with power, to some extent – but the other people in the group can call them on it because there’s no equivalent role to “pastor, thus chosen by God”. And in every circumstance, we can simply use *reason* to determine the best way forward, informed by the best evidence and discussion, not bogged down by having to reference scriptural justification at every turn.
In fact, one of the things that still blows my mind is every time I get into these articles about church abuses and you read emails going back and forth – they’re *filled* with Christianese, and with semi-random references to scripture in order to justify even the smallest statement. Like, for some folks it seems to not be possible to have a reasonable conversation without couching every statement as being justified by some verse. It’s just a very foreign way of thinking to me (who was raised fundamentalist and became atheist ~14 years ago).
In the words of Francis Urquhart: “You might very well think that. But of course, I couldn’t possibly comment.”
https://youtu.be/Oz8RjPAD2Jk
Now you know why Johnny has such a nice tan … he was fake & baking at Ravi’s spa.
Johnny Hunt was among SBC elite … you didn’t dare talk about his misgivings … he was too big to fail. Same reason Judge Pressler was not called out, but covered up. It’s the sort of slimy behavior you would find in a crime syndicate, not the largest Protestant denomination in America!
From the news today: “Pastor John Lowe II admitted to his congregation at New Life Christian Church and World Outreach in Warsaw on Sunday that he committed adultery nearly 20 years ago. Directly following his confession, a woman stepped forward to the microphone and accused the pastor of taking her virginity on his office floor when she was just 16 years old.”
Yes, there’s not too much to the position actually. Most of them serve for two years, speaking at SBC churches, promoting the denomination. The only “power” they have is to appoint members to various committees during their term … which could swing the theo-political pendulum one way or the other.
The real power within SBC rests with the President/CEO of the Executive Committee. Some of these can serve for decades and exert a great deal of influence over various SBC matters.
And this really, really, really takes the cake: “Lowe announced that he is stepping down from ministry.
After Lowe finished speaking, the congregation responded by giving him a standing ovation.” – I bang my head against the table along with Dee…
Every Southern Baptist today (13 million of them) should be carefully considering their church membership and asking some serious questions about where their hard-earned tithes and offerings are going. IMO, the cooperative nature of the denomination – where individual church funds are pooled with those from 50,000 other churches to support the collective work of SBC – needs to be more closely monitored by church members. For example, the average Southern Baptist (most are non-Calvinist) have no idea that their pocketbooks are financing SBC takeover by the New Calvinists (who now control every SBC entity).
Moore was part of the problem. Since he left SBC, he has pointed one finger at others while three are pointed back at him.
Max,
you got that right…sigh
As everyone should. Evidently, SBC’s elite did not. And as a result, payday someday is today.
There would be no reason for Christian watchblogs to exist if church leaders would do the right thing.
Therein, lies the brief power that an SBC President has. The whole SBC ship can be turned one way or the other by key nominations. The New Calvinists have scored big time by being on the right committees.
Sadly, that is the case. The baddest of the bad in the report were members of the old guard they have been striving to replace. In the meantime, they are positioning their own bad-boys to rule the roost in the future (the Mohlerites and Ascolites are not nice people). The SBC is done; it just hasn’t quit yet.
Moore’s piece comes off a little bit like Louis in Casablanca, who was “shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here” (at which point he was handed his winnings).In Moore’s case he should not have been shocked to learn that power corrupts and the corrupt are drawn to power. Like the Religious Right learned with abortion, you just need the right magic words to consolidate power and silence dissent. In the SBC’s case, they seem to believe any threat to missions must be quelled at all costs.
SBC has given a lost world yet another reason to say about Christianity “See, there’s nothing to it!”
SBC’s Conservative Resurgence is actually a Calvinist Resurgence.
Max,
Isn’t it “ironic” that a couple of the leader clowns of SBC were complaining something to the effect that this Guidepost report is Satan detracting from SBC goal of “evangelism”…
Yep, and still not believing that the enemy has been hanging out with church and denominational leaders.
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. But, praise God, for the dark valleys that shape us. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel, but it’s hell in the hallway. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it … once you know it, you can’t un-know it; it’s in your knower.
Make no mistake about it … a snake in the grass.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, my hometown paper, had an article on the front page, bottom right-hand corner, about the SBC report. Johnny Hunt was pastor at First Baptist Woodstock, which is in the Atlanta metro area. We are also the home of First Baptist Atlanta, which is where Charles Stanley preached until he recently retired. So SBC churches have a big presence in the Atlanta area.
I was Baptist as a child; now I attend a Church of Christ. I was part of a group of Churches of Christ that was abusive (not in terms of “widespread coverup of sexual abuse” that’s coming out in the SBC report, but in terms of micromanaging their members and assigning arbitrary measures of “spirituality”; e.g. the number of people you converted were a direct correlation of how “spiritual” you were.). There are similarities between how SBC victims of sexual abuse were treated and how people in my old group of churches treated those who complained about overcontrolling leadership.
I am more disgusted than shocked. The pastor has ties to NAMB and used cooperative funds for the plant, so I suspect he is also a stealth Calvinist.
If it weren’t so ludicrous it would almost be funny.
They (Biblical fundagelicals) will tar and feather two consenting adults (in their enclaves) who engage in unauthorized sex, and yet they’ll pursue draconian lengths to cover up a Chester the Molester in their midst.
Muff Potter,
Yup, that pretty much sums it up…and think, Chester the molester had close ties to RZ!!!
TINA and JEFFREY,
“And just think… these “leaders” led the “largest Evangleical demonination”…. and we are suppose to “respect them”, and follow their “teaching”?????
Is this what we get for the “conservative resurgence”?? What exactly does “conservative” mean??”
The word ‘conservative’ is now under the microscope for many reasons, none of them good.
The ‘good ‘ole boyz’ system reeks of corruption all the way around . . .
Thank God for those who stand up for the VICTIMS and tried/still try to give the victims ‘voice’ in a repressive, unkind, un-Christ-like world of ‘patriarchy’, so devoid of decency as to foster the production of a set of predators ranging through denominations . . . . the Body of Christ suffers when one victim suffers, and we weep with the victims
Thank God for those who help them. Thank you, Dee. Thank you, Wade Burleson.
Thank you everyone who had the courage to speak up and defend people harmed by the predators. It is a blessed work to stand up for those without a voice. It is a blessed thing to light candles in the darkness for the sake of those who have suffered silently and for whom we all mourn.
Evangelism?! Evangelism?!! The SBC forfeited its denominational gifting in evangelism years ago. Too much politickin’, fussin’ and fightin’, and messin’ around … and not enough preachin’ the Gospel. The Main thing has not been the main thing in SBC for a very long time. Baptisms are at an all time low and it won’t get any better now that the New Calvinsts are in control … the NeoCals don’t believe that whosoever will may come, so they don’t preach Jesus like the ought.
Daisy,
Thank you for your comment about singles and celibacy.
My husband was an unmarried seminary grad looking for work. Took 1.5 years before he was hired bi-vocationally as the only paid staff at a very small, very rural Southern Baptist church. Despite excellent grades and relevant work/internship experience. The married men among his friends didn’t seem to have the same problem.
“Ten years? Last week I reflected that the Archdiocese of Santa Fe agreed to pay $121 million to victims of priestly sex abuse in order to get out of bankruptcy, and the first of the Spotlight articles was published in January 2002. That’s 20 years. The SBC is going to be *lucky* if it’s only 20 years. And yeah, the Catholic sex abuse scandal drove out some of the faithful who just couldn’t deal with it anymore. The same is going to happen to the SBC and may already be happening”
Try closer to 40 years!
When I watched “Spotlight” I was surprised it took place in 2001 – this abuse case was the one that blew the lid off abuse in the RC church in Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage
It was dramatized in 1992 – very hard to watch. Highlights the collusion of the both the provincial and federal governments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_of_St._Vincent
Jason Berry’s book “Lead Us Not Into Temptation” was published in 1992 (I read it in 1994). This book was cited by the survivor the journalists spoke to in “Spotlight”.
“Spotlight” came late to a party that was well underway.
Sounds like the SBC’s party is just beginning!
e.g., Pressler the Molester
I’ve mentioned this before, but over 30 years ago, one of my law school study partners died of AIDS. He was a clerk on Pressler’s court, but not under Pressler. However, we had to be dead quiet about why our friend had died because of the very real possibility he would become an example in a Pressler sermon. Now, based on what is going on right now with the court case, I have other questions, questions for which I have no answers. And that’s all I have to say.
“HUGE NEWS: The SBC Exec Committee says they are going to make Augie Boto’s private database of offenders public.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-executive-committee-to-meet-to-17194690.php”
“AND they are going to see if they can revoke Boto’s retirement benefits. #SBCtoo
This is absolutely huge yall.”
https://twitter.com/RobDownenChron/status/1529120163978780673
ishy,
yes…
Recall what he said relating to the authority of churches over the individuals:
“Church membership is therefore necessary because it helps us obey essential commands found in Scripture. For example, the Bible says we should submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Eph. 5:21). The Bible also says to have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account (Heb. 13:17).
“How do you know which leaders to submit to? How do Christian leaders know who should submit to them? And how do we know who such leaders are? How do the leaders know for which people God will hold them responsible?
“The answer is that we freely choose to submit to a specific group of believers and leaders by making a public commitment. And we do all of that by becoming members of a church.”
From:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/church-membership-america-decline/
WTVF here in Nashville reports that the SBC is going to release a secret list of pastors and church staff accused of abuse. Additionally there will be an examination of revoking retirement benefits for committee staff involved in the coverup.
The first Conservative Resurgence was not NeoCal; the second one is NeoCal. I find it so hilarious to hear Fundamentalists calling other Fundamentalists “liberal.”
One of my seminary professors offered an apt definition of Fundamentalism:
“I can see the fun. And I can see the damn. But I’ll be damned if I can see the mental.”
These two Pervs said one to another:
“Perv unto Perv o’er the world is Brother!”
And his WITCHES hiding in Your closet and under Your bed!
“WITCHCRAAAAAAFT!!!”
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I understood what you wanted to say. The question was ironic.
In German, there is a saying, “One hand washes the other, and after that, they’re both dirty.”
“For ye cross land and sea to make One convert, and when ye do ye make him Twice the child of Hell as yourselves!”
— some Rabbi from Nazareth (who wouldn’t get with the program)
Or worse.
I remember hearing “God’s a crock of sh*t, Christians are a crock of sh*t, and Jim & Tammy are the living proof!” back in the Eighties when the Jim & Tammy scandal broke wide open.
And just a few years back with Josh Duggar – “They’re CHRISTIANS – guess it’s OK to bang your sisters as long as you’re not Gay!”
(Among Jews, both of these would be called “Shanda fur die Goyim”.)
They have their Reichstagfeuer.
and Jesus wept.
You hear about that so often these days, I’m waiting for somoene to start a take-a-number system.
These days you’re surprised when you come across a church that ISN’T corrupt.
(I’m sure of one between Gettysburg and Harrisburg PA, but that one’s just haunted. Better a nuisance schpuk than some of these MenaGAWD.)
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless.”
— George Orwell, 1984
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless”.
This is so true, HUG. Those SBC leaders stopped caring about Jesus a long time ago. Power and control are all that matter. They love complementarianism because it involves power over women. They love to talk about how comps love and protect women. Just ask Jules Woodson, Christa Brown, Aimee Byrd and the others how comp men showed love and protection to them.
If you don’t care about protecting God’s children from abuse, you don’t care about Jesus.
… but SBC leaders didn’t
That reminds me. I wonder what other dark secrets among the inner circle lie hidden in SBC’s Great Commission Resurgence Task Force? In 2010, GCRTF records were sealed for 15 years … more dirty laundry to be exposed in 2025? Compromises made? New Calvinism to be released across the denomination, without the blessing of SBC membership? Was the Great Commission another mission altogether? Have millions of Southern Baptists been deceived yet again?
Why should they get retirement benefits, when abuse victims continue to suffer without compensation? Anyone who went along with this wicked scheme to cover and protect abusers should not enjoy a comfortable annuity, while hundreds (perhaps thousands) remain uncompensated for the years of agony they have endured. Payday someday … today! Consequences. God may be looking at revoking their eternal retirement benefits, as well.
Speaking as (I think) the only with on Wartburg Watch I deny all responsibility.
But as a former RC I’m very impressed with how people here are accurately predicting what will happen next, and the only sad thing is that nobody is predicting a sensible response by church leadership.
The only thing I would want to add is if this is following in the footsteps of the RC crisis the SBC will eventually come to the emerging situation in the RC church which is to recognize that leadership have the primary fault, the people in the pews are not faultless by continuing to pay up and support it. After several decades of falling attendance, hastened by covid though, it seems like what is left is a hard core who will continue to attend, support financially and not expect any accountability.
As far as I can tell though, at least in Europe the age profile is ageing so that may not survive.
Meanwhile the bishops in Spain have refused to be investigated by the government because it’s only into the church. We all know how that will end for them.
Why is church leadership never ever able to make a decision which isn’t suicidally short sighted? Very shocked at how SBC leaders refused to be interviewed.
Spot on. The trouble for RCs for several decades and SBC from here is when your church looks like that people see cult.
I watched the video – it’s easy to find on YouTube. It had all the usual features: pastor calling it adultry (as if it was consensual) when it was with an underage teen, admitting wrongdoing but with the caveat it was nearly 20 years ago, claiming the need for forgiveness and healing for himself, crocodile tears, and the obligatory standing ovation for the pastor. What was different about this one was the victim and her husband had opportunity to speak. Very powerful. It sounds to me like the only reason he is confessing it now is because the DA is on it. I am expecting to hear charges announced. So he needs to do whatever it takes to get his pewpeons to support him in the trial.
From the article: “the report by Guidepost Solutions found that leaders of the SBC executive committee routinely silenced abuse survivors, ignored their warnings about a burgeoning abuse crisis and opposed prevention policies that they thought could protect children, but would open the SBC to liability in lawsuits”
Anyone on the SBC Executive Committee, including past CEOs, who acted in this way should also not enjoy retirement benefits, IMO.
Still listening to lawyers.
Dee, I think you know that sex offenders don’t work individually. A similar example from here in the UK would be the religious order the English Benedictine Congregation. Nearly all of their communities have had multiple, prolific abusers. In several places the clergy elected abusers into leadership positions. At one point Ealing Abbey had since-convicted abusers as abbot, prior and novice master.
A former parent of a boy in their school (because what else would they do for a living) ended up as a child protection campaigner. His excellent blog mainly about the EBC is
http://scepticalthoughts.blogspot.com/?m=1
The SBC finally ran out of brooms and carpets:
https://nakedpastor.com/blogs/news/sexual-assault-spiritual-abuse-and-a-bigger-rug
I’ve read the whole report and I was stunned by the legal advice given to just ignore the complaints. Bot and friends are some seriously cold bastards.
Dee, thanks to you and the others who have supported the survivors for years, the stories were not a surprise.
John,
Or “get off on” seeing their “favoured” adherents no. 1 or no. 2, or in turn ostentatiously emulate the same.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
To be called onto? And in the schism over what colour, scarlet occurred to me.
“SBC has given a lost world yet another reason to say about Christianity “See, there’s nothing to it!””
Maybe it’s not “the world” that’s lost. When abuse happens, there’s the victim, the perpetrators, and supposedly god/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
And godjesusholyspirit is not saying or doing a whole lot.
Sorry to be blunt but after really understanding what happened in the residential schools et al, this sort of stuff is just another nail in the coffin of faith.
Really, the legal advice is not surprising to me – lawyers trying to mitigate any risk to their clients, doing their job. BUT the leaders of SBC should have shown some character, compassion, and love In Spite Of the legal advice and acted in a right manner toward the victims, booting and exposing the predators, and making changes to help prevent such abuse in the future. I am still not confident they will do so. They deserve whatever embarassment and other consequences which come their way, along with much, much more!
Oh you mean the one who is in a “relationship” with Bruce and the other guy?
When I think of all the women, grown-up children, and some men who have been speaking out about these issues over the past 50 years, it just makes me sick. Voices that were ignored for years . . .
i Wasn’t it Driscoll who pointed out how useful buses are for throwing quite a lot of people under?
ii Oh you mean power evangelism (useful for discrediting gifts you know)?
Jack,
It is the old “problem of evil” question…. Where was G$d when the Jews were getting massacred by you know who, or other horrible crimes/evil…. What this does show you is how hypocritical “pious religious leaders can be”… or dare I say, “how evil” religious leaders can be…
And that, folks, is the bottom-line in this sad mess.
Who was worse in this situation … the one giving the bad advice or the one acting upon it? Christian leaders are to do the right thing, not the convenient thing.
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As the film/reporting of Spotlight clarified, when the trifecta of religious [vice] leaders + DOJ/LE + Business/Politics/Professional Polite Company (don’t talk about evil) are in sync, evil reigns. They all find each other.
They lock arms, circle the wagons, network and BFF while they prey on, silence, intimidate, and dominate victims.
Stealth criminals (like pillar of the community sex offenders) know where to abide to get away with it, where LE & DOJ & polite society, are weak or blind. Criminals are attuned to this and the law-abiding are not. The criminals stealthily form a network that protects them. A network of codependents.
Look at the case of Dr. Donald Cline in the “Our Father” documentary. Unreal. Even in Court, victims were silenced by the judge during their victim statements.
Attorney Jeff Anderson demonstrated that cases can be litigated where other attorneys balked.
Welcome. Thx for what you do.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I was just having a conversation with my five year old about this.
We watched the Swan Princess (animated) movie the other night. My daughter wanted to know why Rothbart put a spell on Odette to steal her kingdom. I told her, because he was greedy and wanted power. She exclaimed, “But he already had [magic] powers!” As in, why on earth would he want even more.
And it dawned on me that for some people, power is an addiction. Just a little won’t satisfy the craving. The more they have, the less they’ll be able to feel it’s effects, and it leaves them with an ever-growing thirst for more.
It finally struck me what seems wrong assuming they’re actually acting on legal advice.
In, say, a criminal trial, if it’s obvious the evidence is against you and you will certainly go to prison, a good lawyer will switch to advising you to start acting sorry to try to minimize the sentence. Because you’re definitely getting one and that’s the best they can do.
That’s precisely where the SBC now is and I really don’t think the advice is very good. I suspect they don’t understand that there will now be another flurry of complaints.
Presumably if they’re publishing the list the lawyers have been through it and don’t think any mandatory reporters will come to grief as a result, but this is being so mishandled anything could happen.
So many men with so little wisdom, with so much deceit and criminality, with so much grieving of the Holy Spirit…
Like the Kerensky and Lenin two-step of the 1917 Russian Revolution?
“The Intellectuals may start a Revolution, but the Street Thugs finish it.”
“I want you all to Stonewall it – Plead the Fifth. Anything to Save the Plan.”
— The Nixon Tapes
I watched it today. Woo.
Preacher-man was giving the usual boilerplate “confession” and getting the usual Standing Ovation when REAL victim and her husband grabs the mike and lays everything out in detail. Including handing the victim’s Purity Ring back to the ManaGAWD. Then Preacher-man tries to get back on message and then someone in back yells “YOU DIDN’T TELL US SHE WAS SIXTEEN!”
First read it in the Brit Tabloid The Daily Mail then saw the video and the Daily Fail DIDN’T exaggerate. You usually don’t see horndog preachers getting confronted like that and LOSING.
According to further coverage, the DA is interested and investigating but the statute of limitations has probably run out (it’s been 27 years) and preacher-man was careful to wait until she was 16 (age of consent in that state) before popping her cherry on his office floor.
Oh, and preacher-man has kids who are older than the victim.
Christian Family Values in action.
Another point in the report that is really shocking was this one: https://www.news4jax.com/news/2022/05/25/southern-baptist-convention-sex-abuse-report-44-women-made-allegations-against-jacksonville-pastor/
People have been sounding the alarm about Gilyard for YEARS on social media. But 44 reports and nobody did anything about it? Jerry Vines protected him and continued to remain in power in his church, the SBC, and on the Liberty Board of Trustees after 44 reports of inappropriate conduct about Gilyard???
I have to tell a story now. I’ve referenced it before, but I’m going to name the church this time, because you probably have heard of its pastor/founder. This goes to show that without a pervasive culture of protecting people from abuse, male pastors will continue to protect men in the church even when multiple people complain about them.
I was in the singles class at my last SBC church. This church is known for its founding pastor and television ministry, but it was small when I started going there.
I wanted to be in a different class but was told several times by pastors and teachers that singles weren’t welcome in married classes. The singles class kept falling apart because the church really didn’t want to work that hard to do anything for singles. They wouldn’t ask someone to lead (as far as I could tell). Pastors only led the married classes (because that’s where the important people are, right?). So we had a series of really poor teachers interspersed by long periods of nothing. I liked the service, so I kept going there, but I really question why now.
In one instance, a guy named John volunteered to lead who really just wanted to get married again. He used the class to stalk and harass all the women. He didn’t keep his hands to himself. I had been helping before he started with some of the administrative stuff, so he decided I was now going to be his girlfriend. But at the same time, he was making verbal and physical passes to the other women in the class, too.
John started calling me multiple times a day. I had a job as a teacher, so I wasn’t available during weekdays. He would just call over and over again and leave a bunch of messages that said I had to answer because we were going to be dating now. Most days, I would have to turn off my phone anyway, but I would look at it later and there’d be 15-30+ missed calls and multiple messages yelling at me for not answering when he called.
The one time I picked up after school, he went on a long tirade at me. I told him I was working, could not talk, and he could email me about anything related to the class, but I was not his girlfriend and would not talk to him on the phone anymore. He responded that he wanted to talk on the phone and I was going to answer him since he decided we needed to date. Then he went on another rant and I hung up on him. At this time, my phone couldn’t block calls, so I kept getting his calls.
This went on for just a few weeks and John tried to embarrass me in front of the class (which by this point only had 1 other woman and 6 men). He went on a tirade that his new girlfriend (me) was ghosting him (even though I was sitting right there) and wouldn’t answer his calls. How much of a meanie I was to him the “nice guy”. I said he wasn’t my boyfriend and I told him not to call me but email me instead. One guy tried to speak up and the teacher just drowned him out. I got up and walked out. Had enough.
I made an appointment with the pastor over the Sunday School classes. I believe his name was Hoyd (though I don’t remember his last name). I was supposed to meet with him that week and he canceled on me. The next Sunday, John screamed at me in a crowded hallway that I was a horrible girlfriend for refusing to answer his calls and he was going to tell everyone what a terrible person I was. People scattered fast, so the hallway was nearly empty when I said loudly that I was not his girlfriend and to never speak or come near me again.
I finally met with Hoyd and told him all that had gone on. Hoyd just shrugged and said “It’s really not that bad. We need help in the singles, so you should help him.” I responded that John was harassing and stalking women inappropriately and needed to go. That it was wrong. Hoyd said, “Well, we don’t have anyone else to lead the singles and I don’t have time to look for someone else, so I’m not going to tell him to go. You should keep helping him if you want to see the singles ministry continue.” Then he dismissed me because he said he had another appointment to go to.
You can imagine how angry I was.
I stopped going to Sunday School entirely and just went to the service. About six months later, Hoyd stopped me and claimed I caused the singles ministry to fall apart because all the women left and wouldn’t come back after I left. That’s right; he blamed ME for the demise of the singles ministry under stalker John. Another church administrator said the same thing to me some months later, but clearly didn’t have all the details, because I filled her in on exactly what happened and she seemed like she didn’t know what to believe.
I left that church within the year and never went back.
This church was CrossPointe Community Church in Duluth, GA. James Merritt’s church. I doubt Dr. Merritt had any idea any of this happened, but he wasn’t easy to meet with after the church got bigger. I do think he bears some burden for the pastors not making any effort to create a space for the singles (whether as a group or with other groups).
This church has a reputation for being “one of the good ones” in the SBC, but I tell you, these things that happened in the report happen in the churches considered better than others. I think the whole culture of the SBC is rotten and if a church remains in it, they are standing up with the rotten core. I wanted to finally tell this story with names because not naming them means it will continue to happen.
“It is the old “problem of evil” question…. Where was G$d when the Jews were getting massacred by you know who, or other horrible crimes/evil…. What this does show you is how hypocritical “pious religious leaders can be”… or dare I say, “how evil” religious leaders can be…”
And those are questions I can’t answer but in the context of this forum, the hubris of the various Christianities is the smug determination that they are right and we are wrong (it goes by various codes – lost, unchurched) and somehow Jesus just magically makes it all better like a cosmic candy man.
This hubris blinds people until the stink becomes unbearable.
And then it’s us heathens persecuting everyone because we don’t love Jesus, never mind that a good chunk of investigators and prosecutors in North America are likely some form Christian themselves.
This superiority complex is one of the root causes of this mess.
ishy,
Thank you for posting your story, and, unfortunately, it does not surprise me…
ishy,
Your story is what happens when the entitled (in your story, men) run things. Toxic.
Elevating a gender (male) and a HS gift (pastor, teacher), is empowerment to do evil. Deadly.
There’s nothing healthy or innocent about complementarianism. It’s a recipe for evil.
I read somewhere that complementarianism is depriving women of their rights, and in essence, it’s domestic violence from the get-go.
The network.
Frontline’s recent doc about a corrupt police department (free on YouTube) demonstrates. The cops had each others’ backs all right. Say anything about anything a bad cop was doing in that police department and you were toast.
Just like the dude bros in our religious orgs. Either keep your mouth shut about corruption or walk away from your career, which is exactly what the good cops had to do in the documentary. (Notably the two that walked away… one was a woman, the other a POC, a guy. All the bad cops hiding corruption were white males, in this case.)
It’s not what people know. They all know. It’s what they’re willing to stand up for, and maybe/maybe not keep their job.
Professional “Christians” like pastors on the payroll are more a liability than an asset.
A Hollywood classic, “True Confessions”, illustrates this with Roberts Deniro and Duvall, in lush Hollywood style. Ugly truth. Beautiful film.
Patterson was buds with Pressler … Mohler was buds with Mahaney … etc., etc.
NOT 1
All in the same Little Playgroup.
“One Hand Washes the Other…”
Code of Blue: Cop will always side with Cop against Not-Cop.
It’s why corrupt preachers always make sure they get on the Cop side, by becoming a Police Chaplain (Cop) or showing special favor to Cops in their Congregation or Elder Board (Cop). Like that one wife-beating Pastor/Police Chaplain who even taunted his Christian Wifey/Punching Bag in mid-session to go to the Cops – “Code of Blue!” Because if she went to the Cops she would automatically be Not-Cop.
“Touch Not Mine Anointed!”
“But he Won Lots of Souls to Christ! How many Souls Have YOU Saved? Huh? Huh? Huh?”
“PERSECUTION!!!!! BY SATAN HIMSELF!!!!!”
… until the potato becomes too hot to handle, then it’s “Hunt who?” … “Patterson who?” … “Mahaney who?” … etc. Religious-elites protect their own skin when a bud’s liabilities exceed their assets.
Max, it has not happened yet. Pray tell what it would take for them to cancel-Hunt, Patterson, etc.
Before the site crashed someone linked this article https://thefederalist.com/2022/06/03/the-southern-baptist-convention-must-respond-to-reports-of-abuse-with-full-transparency/
In it Mr Ascol says: ”The biblical practices of regenerate church membership, diligent discipleship, and when necessary, corrective church discipline are the bedrock on which a culture of accountability must be built that would then flow down through the SBC and its entities as a necessary consequence.”
Nothing a little more 9Marxism can’t fix!”
Allowing a woman to preach from their pulpit.
Dave A A,
Is “corrective church discipline” what he calls harassing survivors at the 2019 convention or giving a false narrative in his “documentary”?
These guys who are all about church discipline are the type of people who need it most.
It’s the blasted church leaders that seem to be in need of church discipline . . . but they would ignore themselves and discipline everyone else.
ishy,
Well, ya gotta start by disciplining the dumb sheep, and then the culture of accountability will just flow down through the entities who need it most.
Bridget,
There was a church leader on some SBC forum a few years ago who claimed he had disciplined something like 20 of his people and they had all come around -/ guess he didn’t try disciplining any denominational presidents or CEOs…
Dave A A,
“”The biblical practices of regenerate church membership, diligent discipleship, and when necessary, corrective church discipline…”
+++++++++++
regenerate… what a word. sounds like regenital. has a similar ring to incontinent, expectorant, deodorant,
bullsht bingo stopped being fun when this word was added to the cards.
name-dropping with pretentious words…
Yes.
Comrade Brezhnev would agree.
His reaction as the USSR kept showing ever-growing cracks was “INCREASE POLITICAL CONSCIOUSNESS INDOCTRINATION!”
As of now, THEY NEVER EXISTED!
doublelusungood ref doubleplusunpersons.
The Great Chain of Being.
Boots stamping on faces, all the way down.
Went down to our library yesterday, picked up ‘The Economist’ and there was a full page on SBC. Then the first twelve minutes on ABC Radio ‘Religion and Ethics Report’. No hiding now.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/religionandethicsreport/the-southern-baptists-shocking-cover-up-of-sexual-abuse,-plus/13917022
Does the SBC really measure productivity in cost per baptism, or is that simply a math problem anybody could do (comparing the cost of one missionary with the number of baptisms during their stay)?
Friend,
Oops, wrong thread. I’ll post the question where I meant to.
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