We Are Not Baptists…Are We? Why Are SBC Churches Hiding Their SBC Affiliation From Their Church Members?

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“Never hide things from hardcore thinkers. They get more aggravated, more provoked by confusion than the most painful truths.” ― Criss Jami


Update: It looks like the comments were not checked again. I apologize. It’s supposed veto be automatic.

This post is based on a real conversation I had with some folks who belong to a particular church in North Carolina. I brought up this exchange on Twitter and a huge discussion ensued, with people finding out that they are members of a SBC church not a nondenominational church. I am not going to name the church but will discuss it in vague terms.

We are not Baptists and the thought of the upsets me.

I was at a gathering with a group of Christians I’ve known for a long time.

Person A::”You will be pleased. Our church is setting up a program to help those who have been sexually abused. It’s a really good program which involves outside counselors who are helping us to set up a supportive program.

Me: “That’s wonderful! Are you using the Caring Well materials that the SBC is giving out to churches?”

Person B: “Why would we use Baptist material? Our church isn’t Baptist.

Me (now confused): Your church is a Southern Baptist Church.

Person B: “My brother works there and the church is definitely not Baptist.”

Person A: “I think they don’t talk about it because it’s not important. It’s just in the background”

At this point, I realized that I had stepped into an explosive situation. I know their church is a member of the SBC. Yet, I could tell that they were becoming quite upset so I decided to end the conversation.

I was left with the question: Why did they become upset? Nothing changed. Their church was still the same church. Yet, something changed in the conversation. Tension was present.

So, I introduced the situation on Twitter. I suggested that people check the SBC church directory and see if their *nondenominational* church is listed. A few people responded. They were shocked to discover their nice nondenominational church was really a member of the SBC.

Here is how to check if your church is a member of the SBC,

My concern has nothing to do with Baptist churches removing the word *Baptist” from their name.

For years, I have been writing about churches removing the word *Baptist* from their name. Here is just one post from 2014.

It is sad to realize that the word *Baptist* does not sell well in the north and west. Even in the South, millennials are rejecting traditionally named SBC churches. So, I get why they are doing this.These churches are desperately trying to get people in the door where they should get a positive impression.

I am concerned about something else.

A number of SBC churches are deliberately hiding or deemphasizing their association with the SBC from their members.

In the below video, JD Greear announced to his clueless church members that The Summit is really a member of the SBC. He claimed that their church doesn’t like everything that goes on in the SBC. He was running for SBC President (which he now is.) Greear became pastor in 2002. The church was, and is, a member of the SBC. Yet, there were long time Summit members who had absolutely no idea of the church’s affiliation with the SBC. Why?

I have talked with at least 10 members of his church who had no idea their church was an SBC church. All of them became agitated when I said that The Summit was a member of the SBC. Why?

However, the video clearly demonstrates that JD Greear and The Summit Church staff actively sought to downplay any affiliation with the SBC since he had to explain it them. Sadly, it appears that he understood that a number of the faithful didn’t know they were actually Baptists..

 

Some SBC churches appear to purposely conspire to keep their members in the dark.

As the day progressed, more people on Twitter checked the name of their church which they thought to be nondenominational and discovered that their church was actually a member of the SBC. I would love for readers at TWW to do the same.

I have discovered a number of churches in my area are stealth SBC churches. For example here is a statement of one large *nondenominational” church. Notice how they slip the SBC into a list of other organizations with which they affiliate. Membership in the  SBC has simply become just another bit of fine print that no one reads. Is this what the SBC has intended?

Read this statement carefully. They claim they are a nondenominational church. But…they are members of the SBC. Notice how they hide the membership[ in the SBC below Campus Crusade for Christ which has changed its name to CRU.There is a world of difference to supporting Campus Crusade and being a member of the SBC. This church statement appears to be deliberately misleading. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

We are a non-denominational church, which means we are not formally aligned with an established denomination and are completely autonomous. The governing leadership of this church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is vested in the Elder Board, whose authority is derived from the body of believers who compose this church.

We have the privilege of affiliating and financially partnering with numerous faith-based organizations who also practice the great commission as outlined in Matthew 28:18-20.

Willow Creek Association
Campus Crusade for Christ International
Southern Baptist Convention and the North Carolina State Baptist Convention
Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches

Why do people appear angry when they discover that their church is covertly a member of the SBC?

Here are some possible thoughts.

  • They do not like being purposely left in the dark. This could lead to trust issues within the congregation.
  • They have heard about the recent reports of abuse in the SBC.
  • They have heard about the history of racism in the SBC.
  • They view the SBC as a *religion* that pushes lots of rules and regulations.
  • They view the denomination as not friendly towards women.
  • They have given a bunch of money to their church and feel like their own church is lying to them. People like to know how their donations are being used.
  • They feel like they are viewed by their church leaders as too stupid to understand such matters.

I believe that the SBC has made a serious mistake. Taking the word *Baptist* out of the name of the church is not problematic. However, they should stop treating members of your churches like little babies who cannot handle the big boy and big girl truth that their church is a Baptist church. Frankly, there is far too much of “Trust us, we’re the leaders” going on in the SBC.

SBC-treat your members like big boys and big girls. Don’t play games. The fact that JD Greear needed to tell his congregation that they were actually members of the SBC is downright ridiculous. They should have known about this at the time they joined the church. And, if a church is afraid to tell people that their church is a member of the SBC, why in the world are they members of the SBC.

Comments

We Are Not Baptists…Are We? Why Are SBC Churches Hiding Their SBC Affiliation From Their Church Members? — 170 Comments

  1. The concept of “marketing” and penetrated all parts of our culture…. there are even less “nice” words I can use to describe it, I have been seeing Evangelicalism fall into our culture worship of marketing and “success” for many decades…. i few the OP is a classical example of the consequences of elevating “marketing” Christainity to get “butts in the seat”..

  2. Grace Church, with seven campuses in the Greenville, South Carolina area directly says they are nondenominational:

    https://gracechurchsc.org/connect/new/

    Grace Church is a non-denominational church without affiliation to a larger governing denomination. All decisions affecting the spiritual direction of the church are made by the board of elders. We can be succinctly described as an evangelical church dedicated to accurate teaching and practicing of the Bible.

    Brochures in the pews actually say something different: “We function as a non-denominational church…”

    But they show up on SBC’s ChurchSearch:

    http://www.sbc.net/church/2014082049/grace-church

    And are featured in an article on South Carolina Southern Baptist churches:

    https://baptistcourier.com/2014/08/south-carolina-church-sbcs-largest/

    “Lies make baby Jesus cry.” – Todd Flanders

  3. The other flavors of Baptist churches in northern Colorado still use Baptist in there name. It’s only the Southern Baptist who hide it.

  4. Living in the “Summit Church” epicenter… this makes me crazy. So many people being purposely deceived. We must ask why SBC leadership feels the need to deceive their own?!?!? Thank you for all you do and for your continued work on behalf of the walking wounded of the modern church. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

  5. I think a major concern with this would be that if you are an SBC church, your funds are probably flowing to the SBC in some way? If I were at one of these churches, I would want full knowledge of how my donations were being distributed.

  6. SBC’s YRR church planters may be ashamed of being referred to as either “Southern” or “Baptist”, but they sure aren’t bashful about accepting church planting funds provided by hard-working Southern Baptists across America through annual giving to SBC’s home mission program! You have to search hard for SBC-affiliation among the SBC church plants in my area – it’s usually hidden in a remote corner of their websites. If you did a parking lot poll of members leaving these churches each Sunday, most would be surprised to know they signed on with the SBC.

    A young reformer in a community near me did an amazing thing. After opening up his storefront plant, he posted under the name of their church on the sign out front “A Reformed Southern Baptist Church.” He then posted what “reformed” meant on the church website. I may not agree with his theology, but I was impressed with the young man’s integrity. You will always know who I am.

  7. dee,

    Oh no, it was actually Rod Flanders, looks like I’m no better.

    “You can’t handle the truth! Son, we live in a world walls and those walls have to be guarded by men with legally binding membership contracts…”

  8. dee: Basically, they are lying.The question is “Why?”

    In their heart of hearts, I believe the young reformers know what they are doing is wrong. They were taught that lying is wrong in kindergarten. Somehow, they have justified in their minds that stealth and deception are OK for the good of the new reformation. They are using the SBC as a cash-cow for their movement, but don’t really give a big whoop about the denomination.

  9. Lea: I think a major concern with this would be that if you are an SBC church, your funds are probably flowing to the SBC in some way?

    The SBC-YRR church plants in my area only give a token amount each year to the local SBC association of churches. This secures them SBC-affiliation and SBC church planting funds until they get on their feet. Most are reaping more money ‘from’ the SBC than giving ‘to’ the SBC.

  10. dee:
    Stan,

    Basically, they are lying.The question is “Why?”

    Max: In their heart of hearts, I believe the young reformers know what they are doing is wrong.They were taught that lying is wrong in kindergarten. Somehow, they have justified in their minds that stealth and deception are OK for the good of the new reformation.They are using the SBC as a cash-cow for their movement, but don’t really give a big whoop about the denomination.

    I think this is it, coupled with a bit of ends justifying the means mentality.
    They want the breaks, access, and money flow they get from SBC affiliation, and they feel they are the annointed who MUST advance the Kingdom no matter what, and that it must be THEM. That is a very scary mentality that justifies so much of the bad behavior we are seeing.

    Again, and again, and again we return to twisted self importance and ego fueling these men rather than the humble servants of God that He wants. You shall know them by their works, indeed.

    That’s my theory anyway. I claim the right to adjust it as new sputterings emerge from my brainpan.

  11. Back in the ’80s I was a member of an IFB church and it was a point of pride among members of the congregation that this was an autonomous church, not under the ‘authority’ of supra-congregational bodies such as a presbytery or general assembly, and without any supracongregational hierarchy such as exists in pre-Protestant ways of being church.

    They considered such supracongregational bodies and authorities to be contrary to Scripture.

    They did not like the SBC because they considered it to be a system of supracongregational authority, even though it is not.

    Personally, this does not look nefarious to me (though of course my perspective is very narrow, based on the view from a group outside the SBC). It seems to me that SBC churches are every bit as autonomous as was the IFB church that I attended. SBC does, of course, have extra-congregational ** entities ** , such as the seminaries, that the congregations can voluntarily support. IFB churches funded outside entities, too. “Friends of Israel” and “Word of Life” were too entities that IIRC that congregation enthusiastically supported.

    Perhaps I’m being too sympathetic in this case (unusual for me; I tend toward cynicism and imputation of bad motives), but it looks to me like leaders who soft-pedal or even conceal SBC affiliation might be doing that to avoid connotations that are in fact not valid. You can call SBC a “denomination”, but that doesn’t make it the same kind of thing as a truly hierarchical polity or a system with supra-congregational authorities such the more ancient traditions have.

  12. Lea,

    Good point. I think I’;m going to tweet this observation out. How much $$$ is the church giving to the SBC.?If their name is on the SBC church list, they have donated money.

  13. Max: The SBC-YRR church plants in my area only give a token amount each year to the local SBC association of churches.

    For a church plant, sure, but a large established church? I know we give a chunk of our budget to the presbytery. I don’t know what’s typical for SBCs, but I imagine there is a non-negligible amount?

  14. First time posting here after 6 years of reading just about every post and comment. Could have beat DrSteveJ under the table many times! I miss some of the “old timers” like Law Professor, Lydia, Okrapod, Gram3 and their insightful comments. Glad you’re still around and didn’t leave when you were going to, Max. Not sure why this post has brought me out of the shadows, I’ve wanted to comment so many times on these horrific situations. Some possible insight into why churches are hiding that they are SBC. One of the SBC churches I was formerly a member of had “Community” in their name. When we asked why they didn’t advertise that they were Southern Baptist, they said they wanted to reach the community. They said they weren’t completely SB bc they didn’t agree with the whole doctrinal statement, but the SBC has very good medical insurance and pensions, which is why they affiliated with them. They contribute a small amount (for them) to the Cooperative Program, and a teeny amount to the Lottie Moon Christmas offering. Have never had any of the programs like WMU, RAs and GAs for the children. I’m sure most members there now didn’t know until recently when something came out that they are SBC. I believe for sure that all these churches who are secretly SBC do so only for the monetary benefits. Deceitful and using an organization for profit. I’m no longer a SB after years of pouring myself into serving these pastors and their churches (along with the Lord of course), now a Done like Max. I’m praying for you Dee, with all you have going on with your family. I admire and respect, and yes love, you for the woman you are. God bless you! Merry Christmas Wartburgers!

  15. I’m no Baptist, but I noticed this trend especially with the HSCB/CSB bible first. Holman seemed to wanted to make the translation general purpose (nothing wrong with that), and thought the brand/translation had a “Baptist translation” stigma attached to it. I see it now with DA Carson’s “Biblical Theology” study bible as well. It’s presented as a catch all, generic evangelical bible (impossible), but I think they shouldn’t be ashamed that it offers more of a Reformed Baptist perspective specifically.. in addition to generally helpful notes typical of other study bibles.

  16. Lea: For a church plant, sure, but a large established church?

    Yes, the average SBC church gives a certain percentage of its annual revenue (usually 5-10%) to SBC’s “Cooperative Program” which is distributed at the national level across various SBC denominational entities. CP giving to the SBC runs around $500 million per year.

    http://www.sbc.net/BecomingSouthernBaptist/FastFacts.asp

  17. dee:
    Stan,

    Basically, they are lying.The question is “Why?”

    I think that’s a bit harsh. I get the feeling that they simply don’t like the Baptist brand anymore. That they sincerely want to be seen as non-denominational. The problem is that they actually aren’t non-denominational, whatever they say. They’re tricking themselves that their take on Church is somehow the “default”, and thus, think they may as well brand themselves that way. They don’t actually want to adjust any theology to actually be the “default” (whatever that is?).

    Although if there is a default, I’d venture to say that it probably includes CS Lewis 😛

  18. Actually, I noticed this about the lady down my street as well. Or rather, she is my friend’s mom and I’ve known her for years. She knows how much of a “generic”/nondenominational stance I aspire to myself on Church. And she never ceases to say that I should join her Baptist church. It’s like some kind of “given” to her that Baptists are non-denominational themselves and that I shouldn’t have any concern. It’s just how they think.

    They’re sweet people and I’m not trying to criticize it too much. I just think it’s more complicated than they realize.

  19. Saraph: I think that’s a bit harsh. I get the feeling that they simply don’t like the Baptist brand anymore. That they sincerely want to be seen as non-denominational. The problem is that they actually aren’t non-denominational, whatever they say. They’re tricking themselves that their take on Church is somehow the “default”, and thus, think they may as well brand themselves that way. They don’t actually want to adjust any theology to actually be the “default” (whatever that is?).

    I don’t think that holds true for certain big-name leaders, though, and I would wager more than that. Greear is a very good example of that. It was known in SBC realms for years that he would be a potential SBC president. He was quite active in building friendships with other SBC leaders. He went to SBTS. He was never not a SBC leader. But he founded the Summit and hid its SBC affiliation all along, even as he was angling to lead the SBC.

    I’ve known some of these people personally. They don’t have problems with lying or tricking people. They want people to sign covenants not knowing what they are really agreeing to. They write awful diatribes online about subjecting women and even men and then preach sermons about love bombing people to get them in the church.

    Some of these people are the cruelest people I’ve ever known.

  20. Saraph: It’s like some kind of “given” to her that Baptists are non-denominational themselves

    I do think that has been my perspective for a long time, or at least that there is some sort of baptist/non-denom/aog spectrum?

    But that doesn’t explain why a church would actively hide it’s affiliation.

  21. ishy: I don’t think that holds true for certain big-name leaders, though, and I would wager more than that. Greear is a very good example of that. It was known in SBC realms for years that he would be a potential SBC president. He was quite active in building friendships with other SBC leaders. He went to SBTS. He was never not a SBC leader. But he founded the Summit and hid its SBC affiliation all along, even as he was angling to lead the SBC.

    I’ve known some of these people personally. They don’t have problems with lying or tricking people. They want people to sign covenants not knowing what they are really agreeing to. They write awful diatribes online about subjecting women and even men and then preach sermons about love bombing people to get them in the church.

    Some of these people are the cruelest people I’ve ever known.

    I admit that I’m ignorant on the ins and outs of leadership (which this blog seems to focus on, and I’m acquainting myself with). My perspective is more of an on-the-ground thing. It just seems to be a kind of… obliviousness… with the average Baptist to view themselves as a non-denominational Christian.

  22. Lea: I do think that has been my perspective for a long time, or at least that there is some sort of baptist/non-denom/aog spectrum?

    But that doesn’t explain why a church would actively hide it’s affiliation.

    Maybe they’re just filling a “role” that’s always been here. One of a denomination that sees itself as the “default” of the country…for some reason. I think it actually used to be the Episcopal church 100 years ago. Before they went mad.

  23. Out here in CA, many churches dropped the denominational name from their official name and signage back in the 90s. I’ve been at an EFCA church for years that dropped the denominational affiliation from the sign, but the denomination is still talked about from the pulpit. Most younger people are less worried about denomination than they are about the worship band and the coffee. However, I do think churches should be upfront on their website and printed material about their affiliations.

  24. I forgot to mention that Lifeway (the bookstores.. brick and mortar part now closed) kind of fit this mold too. It was run by the SBC, but offered products for the entire Christian community (except Catholics obviously hah). It seems that this is part of a wider movement among Baptists. Perhaps leadership are being duplicitous, but I think the average member isn’t.

    I mentioned that the Episcopal church used to fill this role. Look at no other than their publishing brand – it still reflects this now forgotten part of the American landscape: “Church Publishing”.

  25. Saraph: Perhaps leadership are being duplicitous, but I think the average member isn’t.

    I definitely don’t think the average member is. I think their leadership needs to be open about any affiliations their church might have, for the sake of members.

    Members should also know where the money of the church goes. That is another issue tied up in this that I find really problematic. If they are hiding the money they send to the SBC, are they hiding other things they are doing with the money that comes from the membership.

  26. ishy: I definitely don’t think the average member is. I think their leadership needs to be open about any affiliations their church might have, for the sake of members.

    Members should also know where the money of the church goes. That is another issue tied up in this that I find really problematic. If they are hiding the money they send to the SBC, are they hiding other things they are doing with the money that comes from the membership.

    Definitely agree on funds. I feel the same way about some charities, which tend to brand themselves in a neutral fashion too (although they sometimes definitely are).

    Another amusing tangent on the Episcopal parallel. The Washington National Cathedral is an Episcopal church itself. The US never had an official church, but this once came to be the closest. And while the country’s Christians have largely abandoned the Episcopal church, they haven’t abandoned Washington DC. Nowadays we have the new “Museum of the Bible” to replace it. How fitting that it was started by David Green (of Hobby Lobby) and his “National Christian Foundation”. Green himself is a Baptist.

    Maybe I’m looking too much into it, but that’s kind of a vibe I’m getting of current America. Baptists have somehow taken on the mantle of seeing themselves as the default Christians.

  27. ishy: … hid its SBC affiliation … don’t have problems with lying or tricking people … want people to sign covenants not knowing what they are really agreeing to … write awful diatribes online about subjecting women and even men … Some of these people are the cruelest people I’ve ever known …

    When you think about it, there is not much God-honoring about the New Calvinist movement and its band of bad-boy leaders.

  28. It is the task of the local church to reach people and make disciples. When we attach more importance to the Associational identity, than to that task, there’s something very wrong with us.

  29. Saraph: Baptists have somehow taken on the mantle of seeing themselves as the default Christians.

    Actually, that self-proclaimed honor belongs to the New Calvinists, which aren’t really Baptists at all. They hijacked the SBC to promote their aberrant theology and pillage the stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, thousands of churches); they’ll dump the word “Baptist” when they have accomplished their mission. The young reformers truly believe that they alone have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the rest of Christendom has lost (of course, gospel = Calvinism to them). They are passionate about their cause, but it is a misplaced passion and waste of youth.

  30. Bob Cleveland: It is the task of the local church to reach people and make disciples. When we attach more importance to the Associational identity, than to that task, there’s something very wrong with us.

    Amen, Bob! There’s just not much Great Commission about the mission of many American churches these days.

  31. Max,

    We spent about a decade in 3 different “Calvinist” denomiation churches. There was nothing about them that wasn’t God-honoring. In fact, those demoniations ascribed more soveriegnty to Gof than any other.

  32. Out west we found the non denoms were more likely stealth AoG, Nazarene, or 4 Square. SBC doesn’t have a lock on this distasteful marketing ploy.

  33. I have talked with at least 10 members of his church who had no idea their church was an SBC church. All of them became agitated when I said that The Summit was a member of the SBC. Why?

    I think it’s because it changes the dynamics of how they see their own role in the church. They realize they are not as big of a part as they thought. They are firmly in the place of ignorance and by contrast, the leadership is on a different level, guiding things according to principles the membership are not even aware of.

    It’s always hard to realize that things aren’t how you imagined them to be, that leaders are not the transparent, fully relatable and fully trustworthy fellow believers that they represent themselves to be. It puts you off balance. What else are they doing behind the scenes that you are not considered worthy of knowing.

    There is the realization of having been manipulated. Because, regardless of the reason behind keeping this a secret, the fact that it is a secret is the thing. It’s marketing, it’s manipulation, it’s pragmatic and calculated.

    Imagine the same dynamics in a marriage. You find that your spouse is a member of an organization that has a big claim on their beliefs, methods, purposes and above all, how they view you and your role in that marriage. You look back at your marriage vows and realize this was indirectly referred to but in a way you were kept unaware of the deeper meaning. How would that make you feel?

  34. Bob Cleveland: We spent about a decade in 3 different “Calvinist” denomiation churches. There was nothing about them that wasn’t God-honoring. In fact, those demoniations ascribed more soveriegnty to God than any other.

    Brother Bob, you will note that I refer to the “New” Calvinists in my comments. Much has been written about the stealth and deception of this group. In my 70+ year tenure as a Southern Baptist, I worshiped alongside many “classical” Calvinists. I found them to be civil in their discourse, respectful of other expressions of faith, and God-honoring in their behaviour. They weren’t out and about claiming to be the only vessels of truth or taking over churches by lying their way into pulpits. My problem is not with classical Calvinism, but this new toxic strain.

  35. Funny how J.D. Greear didn’t mind becoming the SBC’s president, yet he almost apologizes to his church for its affiliation with it–how utterly pathetic!
    We still have “Baptist” in our church’s name, as corny and old-fashioned as that may seem. We feel no need to ‘trick’ people into our church by masking our identity. I’ll be the first one to agree that the SBC is fraught with problems, however most of them have been created by pastors much like Greear. He only gives the congregation as much information as he feels they can handle and hides the rest. Reminds me of our former YRR pastor’s deception to our church when he finally revealed that he was reformed. He said, “well, the search committee didn’t ask me.” Our Lord didn’t sneak His doctrine around–and neither should we!

  36. Root 66: Reminds me of our former YRR pastor’s deception to our church when he finally revealed that he was reformed. He said, “well, the search committee didn’t ask me.”

    Not being honest is dishonesty. Being elusive is a form of deception. Withholding important information such as your theological leaning isn’t ethical, especially if it’s contrary to the prevailing belief and practice of the church interviewing you. For a pastoral candidate, there are some questions which should be answered whether they are asked or not.

  37. Max: Not being honest is dishonesty.Being elusive is a form of deception.Withholding important information such as your theological leaning isn’t ethical, especially if it’s contrary to the prevailing belief and practice of the church interviewing you.For a pastoral candidate, there are some questions which should be answered whether they are asked or not.

    What is it about New Calvinists or YRR that isn’t in line with prevailing/previous beliefs of Baptists? What kind of things would they be inclined to hide exactly? I don’t know much about them tbh.

  38. Max: Not being honest is dishonesty.Being elusive is a form of deception.Withholding important information such as your theological leaning isn’t ethical, especially if it’s contrary to the prevailing belief and practice of the church interviewing you.For a pastoral candidate, there are some questions which should be answered whether they are asked or not.

    He also signed us up for affiliation with 9Marx and The gospel Coalition without anyone’s knowledge or permission. But once that information hit the fan at a business meeting, we promptly ‘un-affiliated’ ourselves!

    It reminds me of what Jesus said to the folks in John 8, “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

  39. Leah Jacobs: First time posting here after 6 years of reading just about every post and comment. Could have beat DrSteveJ under the table many times! I miss some of the “old timers” like Law Professor, Lydia, Okrapod, Gram3 and their insightful comments. Glad you’re still around and didn’t leave when you were going to, Max.

    I’m so glad you decided to take part in the conversation. I miss all of these old timers, too, and glad we still have Max.

    Not sure why this post has brought me out of the shadows, I’ve wanted to comment so many times on these horrific situations. Some possible insight into why churches are hiding that they are SBC. One of the SBC churches I was formerly a member of had “Community” in their name. When we asked why they didn’t advertise that they were Southern Baptist, they said they wanted to reach the community. They said they weren’t completely SB bc they didn’t agree with the whole doctrinal statement, but the SBC has very good medical insurance and pensions, which is why they affiliated with them. They contribute a small amount (for them) to the Cooperative Program, and a teeny amount to the Lottie Moon Christmas offering. Have never had any of the programs like WMU, RAs and GAs for the children. I’m sure most members there now didn’t know until recently when something came out that they are SBC. I believe for sure that all these churches who are secretly SBC do so only for the monetary benefits.

    I wonder why these churches don’t just say this openly? Too complicated for the masses to grasp? It’s all about image?

    Deceitful and using an organization for profit. I’m no longer a SB after years of pouring myself into serving these pastors and their churches (along with the Lord of course), now a Done like Max. I’m praying for you Dee, with all you have going on with your family. I admire and respect, and yes love, you for the woman you are. God bless you! Merry Christmas Wartburgers!

    Merry Christmas to you, too!

  40. Additionally, I guess what really frosts my pumpkin about this kind of hypocrisy is that people like Greear sure don’t mind to reap the benefits from all that is offered by the SBC, but they certainly seem ashamed to have their church affiliated with it.
    It reminds me of a story about an Amish man needing a ride in the rain. He didn’t believe in owing an automobile, but he certainly didn’t mind riding in one. When the driver asked him about this he replied, “It’s better to RIDE with the devil than BE the devil.”
    Yep, that’s Greear in a nutshell!

  41. Root 66:
    Additionally, I guess what really frosts my pumpkin about this kind of hypocrisy is that people like Greear sure don’t mind to reap the benefits from all that is offered by the SBC, but they certainly seem ashamed to have their church affiliated with it.
    It reminds me of a story about an Amish man needing a ride in the rain.He didn’t believe in owing an automobile, but he certainly didn’t mind riding in one.When the driver asked him about this he replied, “It’s better to RIDE with the devil than BE the devil.”
    Yep, that’s Greear in a nutshell!

    From the looks of it, these just seem like desperate men who got their theology degrees, and are just hitching their ride on any old church that took them. No apparent home of their own, and no gumption to build anything of their own. I don’t blame them for the former necessarily, but the latter (the inability to build, but willing to prey on others’ work). This is just weak and pathetic for a man. Ironic, since they apparently put manhood on a pedestal, where they sound like Beta males themselves.

  42. Saraph: (the inability to build, but willing to prey on others’ work).

    This is why they seek out churches to “reform”. They don’t have to do all the dirty work of starting a church and spending countless hours evangelizing. They can just snatch up an established, turn-key church and they’re set for life!

  43. Seminarians who belong to a “SBC” church get big discounts at the SBC Seminarys. There are alot of “SBC” churches who give almost nothing to the SBC. The SBC allows themselves to be used as a source of funding for these ‘SBC” churches. I just don’t know why the SBC allows this. Its not fair to the real SBC people who give all the money.
    This retired SBC person has flown the coop, mainly because of the Calvinism and arrogance that it produces. Like Dee I belong now to an LCMS Lutheran church. This church knows how to treat their members as brothers and sisters in Christ (with respect and truthful interactions)

  44. Bob Cleveland: We spent about a decade in 3 different “Calvinist” denomiation churches. There was nothing about them that wasn’t God-honoring. In fact, those demoniations ascribed more soveriegnty to Gof than any other.

    New Calvinists are a group unto their own and one thing that separates them from most Calvinist denominations is that they do not adhere to creeds. Many classical Calvinists disagree that the New Calvinists are Calvinist at all, and shouldn’t call themselves Reformed. They claim all criticism of their theology or philosophy indicates a lack of election to salvation, so “you just couldn’t understand”.

    They also strongly avoid any churches with accountability systems, like Presbyterian. That’s why they chose to “take over” Baptist churches–they’re small kingdoms unto themselves.

  45. Jeff: Seminarians who belong to a “SBC” church get big discounts at the SBC Seminarys. There are alot of “SBC” churches who give almost nothing to the SBC. The SBC allows themselves to be used as a source of funding for these ‘SBC” churches. I just don’t know why the SBC allows this. Its not fair to the real SBC people who give all the money.

    And SBC seminaries are all now New Calvinist. At least SBTS and SEBTS teach pastoral classes on how to “reform” churches to New Calvinism, whether that church wants to be reformed or not.

  46. ishy: They claim all criticism of their theology or philosophy indicates a lack of election to salvation, so “you just couldn’t understand”.

    How strangely Gnostic. “We have the secret magical unicorn power of everlasting Knowledge.. and you just don’t understand brah! To Hades with you.”

  47. Funnily, I’d say the most “model” Calvinists in history were the Puritans, and they themselves struggled and introspected quite a bit whether they were the Elect or not. For all of their dislike of ritual, they still held on to elaborate funerals and pre-death contemplation. Death would “make the flesh tremble”. They never took being one of the “Elect” for granted, and it was a cause of much mental torment. And they certainly accuse others through mere understanding (which is why I make the accusation of Gnosticism above).

  48. ^Oops.. above I meant “they certainly DIDN’T accuse others through mere understanding”.

  49. ishy: SBTS and SEBTS teach pastoral classes on how to “reform” churches to New Calvinism, whether that church wants to be reformed or not

    Do you reckon that the average Southern Baptist member (the 16 million majority are non-Calvinist) know this when they send their Cooperative Program funds each year to support those seminaries? I suppose they could be uninformed or misinformed about the New Calvinist takeover of the SBC, but having spent 70+ years with them I suspect they are willingly ignorant … they really don’t give a big whoop about theology as long as you don’t mess with their monthly fellowship dinners.

  50. Jeff: This retired SBC person has flown the coop, mainly because of the Calvinism and arrogance that it produces.

    If the truth were known, I suspect that tens of thousands of Southern Baptists across America are doing the same each year.

  51. Saraph: What is it about New Calvinists or YRR that isn’t in line with prevailing/previous beliefs of Baptists?

    Within Southern Baptist life, the two primary issues with the New Calvinist takeover of traditional SBC churches pertain to soteriology and church governance. Southern Baptists for the last 150 years have been distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice about God’s plan of salvation … “whosoever will may come!” rather than a reformed theology focus on the predestined elect. Indeed, the denomination has carried a gifting in evangelism, where the Cross of Christ has been proclaimed to ALL people in missionary efforts around the world. Traditional Southern Baptists have also held to congregational church polity rather than elder rule. These things are being stripped out of SBC life by the new reformers who deceive their way into traditional SBC churches.

  52. Oh my goodness. I thought SBC was just in the U.S. I typed in my Canadian City (pop. about 700,000) into the search and 16 churches came up!

  53. I know a SBC church in Southern California where the young person at his interview said he was not a Calvinist and became the pastor. This man was a graduate of MacArthurs seminary and lied thru his teeth. This church is now of course Calvinist. I would tell Dee the name of the church and the liars name. This liar also writes for 9 marx and gospel coalition.
    But this is just one church of many where this deception was pulled.

  54. Jeff:
    I know aSBC church in Southern California where the young person at his interview said he was not a Calvinist and became the pastor. This man was a graduate of MacArthurs seminary and lied thru his teeth. This church is now of course Calvinist.I would tell Dee the name of the church and the liars name. This liar also writes for 9 marx and gospel coalition.
    But this is just one church of many where this deception was pulled.

    Why doesn’t the church just fire him for coming in under false pretenses? I don’t understand why churches seem so helpless in these cases.

  55. Saraph:
    I’m no Baptist, but I noticed this trend especially with the HSCB/CSB bible first. Holman seemed to wanted to make the translation general purpose (nothing wrong with that), and thought the brand/translation had a “Baptist translation” stigma attached to it. I see it now with DA Carson’s “Biblical Theology” study bible as well. It’s presented as a catch all, generic evangelical bible (impossible), but I think they shouldn’t be ashamed that it offers more of a Reformed Baptist perspective specifically.. in addition to generally helpful notes typical of other study bibles.

    Yet for all the $ they put into it, I can’t name a single SBC church that uses it. The most prominent SBC church near me — Prestonwood — uses ESV. And although they sell other Bible translations in their bookstore I can’t recall seeing CSB offered.

  56. Shannon H.:
    Oh my goodness.I thought SBC was just in the U.S.I typed in my Canadian City (pop. about 700,000) into the search and 16 churches came up!

    On closer inspection, 5 of those weren’t in the city and of those 5, 3 were in the U.S.! So much for “a church near you”.

    So of the remaining 11, 6 had websites and only 3 even mentioned they had something to do with Baptists. One of those said they were with the Canadian National Baptist Convention; none said they were affiliated with the SBC. (Oh and one church listed I know has a new name now without Baptist in the title, but the old church name is still listed.)

    This isn’t just with SBC churches. My own former church doesn’t have anywhere on its website what denomination it is. Years ago at a payroll giving plan rally at work, a co-worker asked me if I knew the Salvation Army major who was there. I said no and asked her why she asked. She said isn’t your church (naming the church) Salvation Army? So I explained my church was PAOC, Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

    I know that my former church doesn’t place importance on denominations, but it would be nice for people to know! And…I found out one time the church was also affiliated with AoG in the U.S.!

  57. Saraph: How strangely Gnostic. “We have the secret magical unicorn power of everlasting Knowledge.. and you just don’t understand brah! To Hades with you.”

    It’s also one of the top signs of a cult movement. Though many of the other signs fit them as well, such as the lack of financial transparency.

    “The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.”
    https://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

  58. Jeff: I know a SBC church in Southern California where the young person at his interview said he was not a Calvinist and became the pastor. This man was a graduate of MacArthurs seminary and lied thru his teeth. This church is now of course Calvinist … But this is just one church of many where this deception was pulled.

    Yep, sounds familiar … modus operandi of the New Calvinist takeover within SBC. There must be a “How To” missive circulating in the ranks of the young reformers on how to deceive non-Calvinist Christians and take their stuff. Several years ago, SBC Founders published a book “A Quiet Revolution” where they provided young Calvinist pastors instructions on how to reform a church. These folks are so mean-spirited!

  59. Jeff,

    Yup, real Christ like behavior…. isn’t being dishonest about your true theological beliefs in the beatitudes, and considered one of the “fruits of the spirit”..?

  60. Mark R: Yet for all the $ they put into it, I can’t name a single SBC church that uses it.The most prominent SBC church near me — Prestonwood — uses ESV.And although they sell other Bible translations in their bookstore I can’t recall seeing CSB offered.

    Well, for the record, I don’t think it’s a bad translation. I rather like it. But it is noteworthy that themselves apparently saw a stigma with the Holman/Baptist branding.

    I’m pretty settled with the KJV and NIV combo, personally.

  61. Jeff: Like Dee I belong now to an LCMS Lutheran church. This church knows how to treat their members as brothers and sisters in Christ (with respect and truthful interactions)

    Another one!!! I need a few of you guys posting on here because I think some view my experience at my LCMS church as a fluke.

  62. SiteSeer: It’s always hard to realize that things aren’t how you imagined them to be, that leaders are not the transparent, fully relatable and fully trustworthy fellow believers that they represent themselves to be. It puts you off balance. What else are they doing behind the scenes that you are not considered worthy of knowing.

    There is the realization of having been manipulated. Because, regardless of the reason behind keeping this a secret, the fact that it is a secret is the thing. It’s marketing, it’s manipulation, it’s pragmatic and calculated.

    Imagine the same dynamics in a marriage. You find that your spouse is a member of an organization that has a big claim on their beliefs, methods, purposes and above all, how they view you and your role in that marriage. You look back at your marriage vows and realize this was indirectly referred to but in a way you were kept unaware of the deeper meaning. How would that make you feel?

    You just described my Calvinist experience to a ‘T’. When you realize that you have been deceived and manipulated by a pastor you loved and trusted, the whole bottom falls out of your world, leaving you wondering who and what, if anything, you can really trust.

  63. Luckyforward:
    From Februar 13, 2018:https://capstonereport.com/2018/02/13/j-d-greear-sleeve-southern-baptist/31923/

    Interesting that some of this may actually have to do with politics as well… according to that article. Sounds like this Greear fellow is a “Nevertrumper” type, as is Russell Moore mentioned in that article. And according to that, they apparently don’t identify themselves with the typical Baptist “common folk” (which are apparently of a different political persuasion).

    What a mess. I know just how much of a mess the Trumper/Never Trumper thing is even in secular circles. It’s got to be an even bigger mess in religious ones.

  64. Jeff,

    I’ve always been perplexed by the LCMS practice of not allowing those outside of the LCMS to not participate in observing communion. From lcms.org “Because the Bible teaches that this Sacrament may also be spiritually harmful if misused, and that participation in the Lord’s Supper is an act of confession of faith, the LCMS ordinarily communes only those who have been instructed in the teachings of our church and who have confessed their faith in these teachings”.
    And then their is the LCMS position concerning interfaith services and joint worship services. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2013/02/lutheran-crisis-deja-vu/#disqus_thread

  65. My first pastorate in NC was in Chapel Hill, and the former pastor went to Homestead Heights Baptist Church in Durham, the forerunner of Greear’s “summit.” So he did a good job of “erasing” a church’s identity so he could implant his own.

    It actually worked pretty well until he wanted to be President of the SBC. Interesting how one’s own need for power causes you to come “out of the closet” and explain what your church “is.”

    God help us . . .

  66. Saraph: Interesting that some of this may actually have to do with politics as well… according to that article. Sounds like this Greear fellow is a “Nevertrumper” type, as is Russell Moore mentioned in that article. And according to that, they apparently don’t identify themselves with the typical Baptist “common folk” (which are apparently of a different political persuasion).

    What a mess. I know just how much of a mess the Trumper/Never Trumper thing is even in secular circles. It’s got to be an even bigger mess in religious ones.

    Within the SBC it could be a powder keg waiting to blow.

    You have on one side folks like JD Greear and Russell Moore who are trying to get SBC Evangelicals to be Democrats.

    On the other side you have Jack Graham and Robert Jeffress who oppose the Democrats at every turn.

  67. Luckyforward,

    Preachers who are whatever they need to be to gain a following and accomplish an agenda are scary … even scarier when they become leaders. Chameleons change their color to avoid detection.

  68. dee: Another one!!! I need a few of you guys posting on here because I think some view my experience at my LCMS church as a fluke.

    I’ll vouch for your experience as very likely true and not just a fluke.
    Years back, I attended an LCMS congregation in my town.
    We had a very intelligent and astute woman teaching a mixed adult Bible class and nobody in the higher ups beyond the Parish felt the least bit threatened.

  69. dee: Another one!!! I need a few of you guys posting on here because I think some view my experience at my LCMS church as a fluke.

    While I don’t have experience with LCMS specifically, after growing up in Baptist or Baptist-like circles, I finally became a believer as a direct result of friendship with a Lutheran and an Anglican. Ironic, now that I think of it.

  70. Saraph: Interesting that some of this may actually have to do with politics as well… according to that article. Sounds like this Greear fellow is a “Nevertrumper” type, as is Russell Moore mentioned in that article. And according to that, they apparently don’t identify themselves with the typical Baptist “common folk” (which are apparently of a different political persuasion).

    They’re very tribalistic and Trump is friends with the “other side”. The age group they are trying to attract also tends to be disgusted with evangelical political machine, but the New Calvinists hide the fact that they are way more authoritarian until they get people to sign a covenant contract and refuse to let them out.

  71. Funny twist – our church has “Baptist” in the name, but has been kicked out of the state and national SBC organization for being an inclusive and affirming congregation. Our motto is “There’s more than one way to be a Baptist”. We still affirm and follow the seven Baptist distinctives of Biblical Authority for faith and practice, Saved and baptized membership, Two Ordinances of Believer’s Baptism and Communion, Autonomy of a local church, The Priesthood of the believer, Religious freedom and Separation of Church and State.

    We have become an oasis for Baptist members that no longer feel a part of their former church’s change to a more legalistic doctrine and practice. It’s a good place to be in these difficult days.

  72. Folks. Listen up.

    More and more we have people posting under multiple “handles”.

    Please stop this.

    It is against the rules here and make it appear you’re trying to do something underhanded. Even if this is not your intent.

    And it also gets you tossed into moderation for use to track down and see what’s up.

  73. Saraph,

    You are exactly correct in being “Gnostic”… however, IMHO, None of us can really understand the supernatural, just like we can not understand, really deeply, the natural world…. Who can really fathom a “billion years”, and Quantum mechanics, which “applies” to all physical reality, has fundamental, logical contradictions to our limited, human minds..,,. So, a Gnostic gets it one half correct in saying that “you just do not “understand”. BUT they are full of you know what to claim that “ they understand it”!!

  74. Please be careful on the political side of things. Ive decided that politics is not my hill to die on since I’m already in enough trouble s it is. I choose to believe that people will vote their conscience even when it doesn’t agree with mine. Evangelicals, as a whole, have been far to tied in with political parties and I believe that hurts their messaging about their faith. I was in a Reformed Baptist church in which one of the pastors routinely handed out *Who you should vote for* material. It used to drive me up a wall not because I didn’t like or dislike some of the recommendation but because it was being made into *good Christians vote this way.*

    I expect to be grumpy this entire next year due to the elections and other issues. I’m sad that we cannot just get along and respect one another’s choices even if we disagree with them/

  75. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    So, something caused me to think about what is going on in the spiritual world when I prayed the Lord’s Prayer in church which we do regularly. We say “Thy will be done, on part as in heaven.” In treating propositions. *one Earth* versus *in heaven.*

    Got me to wondering about heaven being a different sort of place in which we abide as opposed to living on the earth.

  76. ishy: They also strongly avoid any churches with accountability systems, like Presbyterian. That’s why they chose to “take over” Baptist churches–they’re small kingdoms unto themselves.

    I’ve always thought it’s weird that they don’t just go PCA.

  77. Jeffrey Chalmers:
    Saraph,

    You are exactly correct in being “Gnostic”…however, IMHO, None of us can really understand the supernatural, just like we can not understand, really deeply, the natural world….Who can really fathom a “billion years”,and Quantum mechanics, which “applies” to all physical reality, has fundamental, logical contradictions to our limited, human minds..,,. So, a Gnostic gets it one half correct in saying that “you just do not “understand”. BUT they are full of you know what to claim that “ they understand it”!!

    Indeed, God the Father is a mystery in many ways, but that’s why Jesus came. “He is the image of the invisible God..”

    But of course, for a Gnostic, even Jesus is turned cryptic and into a mystery himself. Defeating the whole purpose of his Incarnation. Sigh.

  78. Remember, several years ago, the Convention sanctioned the use of an alternate descriptor to use in church planting: ‘Great Commission Baptist’.

    Never really caught on.

    The Southern Baptist, even the Baptist name, they’ve tainted. And instead of asking why they are getting such a bad reputation, and working to rectify things, they just slap on these generic incognito names, claiming they’re misunderstood?

  79. SiteSeer,

    SiteSeer: I think it’s because it changes the dynamics of how they see their own role in the church. They realize they are not as big of a part as they thought. They are firmly in the place of ignorance and by contrast, the leadership is on a different level, guiding things according to principles the membership are not even aware of.
    It’s always hard to realize that things aren’t how you imagined them to be, that leaders are not the transparent, fully relatable and fully trustworthy fellow believers that they represent themselves to be. It puts you off balance. What else are they doing behind the scenes that you are not considered worthy of knowing.
    There is the realization of having been manipulated. Because, regardless of the reason behind keeping this a secret, the fact that it is a secret is the thing. It’s marketing, it’s manipulation, it’s pragmatic and calculated.
    Imagine the same dynamics in a marriage. You find that your spouse is a member of an organization that has a big claim on their beliefs, methods, purposes and above all, how they view you and your role in that marriage. You look back at your marriage vows and realize this was indirectly referred to but in a way you were kept unaware of the deeper meaning. How would that make you feel?

    TS00,

    TS00: You just described my Calvinist experience to a ‘T’. When you realize that you have been deceived and manipulated by a pastor you loved and trusted, the whole bottom falls out of your world, leaving you wondering who and what, if anything, you can really trust.

    I can relate to this as well. “How would that make you feel?” Feelings, plural, hard to regulate, when I realize it’s happening. Sad, too much time unaware…. Empowered when remembering moments with difficult people/situations and a few words came to me, where I didn’t have the words when I was younger and the new words spoken seem to make the moment different than hopeless. Peace comes more quickly than before, for me anyway. I also gain distance from being pulled into their plans for me.

    In terms of Calvinist contexts and how others and I have been affected by those (I didn’t grow up in it-even the old brand): I noticed and sort of appreciated in a sad/mixed way about the documentary last summer about Fred Rogers. His widow shared some personal aspects of his last moments saying that Fred was asking her if he was a sheep or a goat and her response of reassurance was that if anyone was a sheep it was him. I like, too, how she said “Thank you,” at the end of the filming.

  80. Lea: I’ve always thought it’s weird that they don’t just go PCA.

    The New Calvinists are aggressive and militant. They don’t want to join something; they want to conquer it. The SBC was easy-pickins’ for them. The young reformers and their band of elite leaders have plundered and pillaged all the SBC stuff with its billions in assets (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, 47,000 churches, etc.). It took Southern Baptists 150 years to amass that … amazing that they have so willingly surrendered it all to the new reformers in just a few short years.

  81. dee:
    Please be careful on the political side of things. Ive decided that politics is not my hill to die on since I’m already in enough trouble s it is. I choose to believe that people will vote their conscience even when it doesn’t agree with mine. Evangelicals, as a whole, have been far to tied in with political parties and I believe that hurts their messaging about their faith. I was in a Reformed Baptist church in which one of the pastors routinely handed out *Who you should vote for* material. It used to drive me up a wall not because I didn’t like or dislike some of the recommendation but because it was being made into *good Christians vote this way.*

    I expect to be grumpy this entire next year due to the elections and other issues. I’m sad that we cannot just get along and respect one another’s choices even if we disagree with them/

    I’d say that most of this strife among/from Evangelicals wouldn’t have even happened if not for Abortion. That’s the main thing that activated the Evangelical voting base. And for that, I applaud the efforts. If only to protect children. I don’t care about acquisition of power…and we should be wary of any evangelicals who want that.

    But they’re not the only political active Christians. Funnily, evangelicals were actually a bit “otherworldly” in some ways before this (although not Amish either). It was the Religious-Progressive wing that engaged in political affairs far more before. Especially those of a Post-Millennial persuasion, who felt a sacred duty of ushering God’s kingdom on earth. From the Abolition to Woodrow Wilson to Roosevelt to MLK Jr.. (I applaud all of this too btw). Even the Hymns of these periods kind of reflect this. “Onward Christian soldiers..” “We shall overcome..”

    The world is one great battlefield,
    With forces all arrayed;
    If in my heart I do not yield,
    I’ll overcome some day.

  82. Jerome: instead of asking why they are getting such a bad reputation …

    … they attend annual TGC and T4G conferences to build their confidence to continue their rebellion, be told that they are OK, rub shoulders with God’s anointed, hold hands and sing kumbaya, and go back into the world with more fuel to be bad boys for the king (insert your favorite New Calvinist king).

  83. Jerome: Remember, several years ago, the Convention sanctioned the use of an alternate descriptor to use in church planting: ‘Great Commission Baptist’.

    Never really caught on.

    That’s because in their heart of hearts, the average SBC church planter knows that he is not engaged in the Great Commision. His planting mission is to plant reformed theology, not a church which will reach ALL people for Christ.

  84. Paige Patterson in 2012 pushed for ‘Great Commission Baptists’ (GCB) explaining that since our ‘regional moniker’ may be ‘an offense, a barrier to some, used…by the enemy to keep [people] from Christ, then we should remove the barrier.”

    http://www.bpnews.net/photos/?filter=moniker+paige

    Paige, it’s not the ‘regional moniker’ that’s the big problem for Southern Baptists.
    It’s you! And those like you!

  85. Root 66,

    “Additionally, I guess what really frosts my pumpkin about this kind of hypocrisy…”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    that’s cute!

    (that’s all i really have to add to the conversation at the moment.)

  86. dee,

    Dee raises a very important point: what do words and phrases mean, especially when discussing “complex” concepts..

    Let me give a example…. and my wife will roll hear eyes when she reads this.
    Some of my current work involves measuring, on a femtogram level, the amount of iron, in red blood cells, and other human cells. We usE very powerful magnets, and computer imaging, to measure how fast the cells move…. the velocity can be mathematically related to the amount, and electron “spin state” of the iron. This electron spin state of iron in hemoglobin is dependent on the “health” of the hemoglobin and whether oxygen is bound.

    As one might imagine, there are “practical” applications, and we are working with blood from people with various diseases..

    But, the most fundamental aspect of this is quantum mechanics.. the “spin state” concept is derived from mathematics… while in basic physics they might use the analogy of a electron “spinning” like the earth, this is a poor analogy… further, electrons can pair “up”, -1/2 and +1/2, and how they pair up, falls out of specific mathematical models of reality…..

    So, every time a red blood cell picks up and gives off Oxygen in your body, fundamental laws of physics apply!! Yet, while we use them, I do not “really” understand it! Next time a New Calvanist tries to “put you down” by saying you really do not understand it, know that they “really do not understand it either”….

  87. Jeffrey Chalmers: Next time a New Calvinist tries to “put you down” by saying you really do not understand it, know that they “really do not understand it either”….

    Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him.

  88. Saraph:
    . . . I noticed this trend especially with the HSCB/CSB bible first. Holman seemed to wanted to make the translation general purpose (nothing wrong with that), and thought the brand/translation had a “Baptist translation” stigma attached to it.

    Unfortunately there is a decidedly complementarian essay in the HCSB Study Bible.

    “The Bible and Women – 2 Timothy 1” written by Mary Kassian.

    I don’t know how other topics are treated or what the overall “tone” of the translation itself or the study Bible presentation is.

  89. Root 66: frosts my pumpkin

    Yeah, they are lower than a snake’s belly, meaner than a wet panther, lost as last year’s Easter egg.

  90. ishy,

    “SBTS and SEBTS teach pastoral classes on how to “reform” churches to New Calvinism, whether that church wants to be reformed or not.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    what are these courses called? How do they appear in the catalog?

    (surely not “How To Reform Churches To New Calvinism Whether They Like It Or Not”.)

  91. dee: Got me to wondering about heaven being a different sort of place in which we abide as opposed to living on the earth.

    I much prefer the Jewish version of ‘heaven’, which is a corporeal after life in a world (Olam Ha-Ba) or worlds to come. A place based on the here and now, in which the fleshly delights of this life are carried on and enhanced.
    I have no desire to go to a place of mansions, gold streets, and jewel encrusted vistas.

  92. Of course, there’s also the opposite problem: Churches that claim to belong to a denomination, but are members in name only, or only because they use the denominational hymnal. Like the chapel at my alma mater, Grove City College. Or a certain Episcopal church in Alexandria, which I refer to as “Planet Malm.” The latter looks Episcopal, gets an annual visit from an Episcopal bishop, and sends a small amount of money to the diocese. But it’s really just a cult of personality, now sans the personality.

  93. Afterburne,

    “Unfortunately there is a decidedly complementarian essay in the HCSB Study Bible.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    study bibles…. exploiting the bible to get published, to diversify with new products to sell, to indoctrinate.

    how high can you go with exponents? can i go yuck to the millionth power?

    what’s a word for yuck to the millionth power?

    (yuck is what you say when your mother makes this nifty energy drink of blending grapefruit, eggs, and milk together. far too mild a word.)

  94. dee,

    “Got me to wondering about heaven being a different sort of place in which we abide as opposed to living on the earth.”
    +++++++++++

    dee — let’s do a post on this topic! (on a slow news day)

    i could help write it. the discussion would be so interesting. such a huge question humanity has always pondered (even if “nope, no heaven.”)

    indeed, ‘on earth as it is in heaven’ is very thought-provoking.

    i see it as a different dimension, somehow tethered to physical life on earth.

    all we have is data to understand anything. it would be interesting to look at the data. well, i would be very interested, at least.

    then we can tackle “did jesus die for extraterrestrials?”

  95. Afterburne: Unfortunately there is a decidedly complementarian essay in the HCSB Study Bible.

    “The Bible and Women – 2 Timothy 1” written by Mary Kassian.

    I don’t know how other topics are treated or what the overall “tone” of the translation itself or the study Bible presentation is.

    Ah, I don’t know anything about their study bibles. I just appreciate the general approach (both for it’s English and traditional renderings i.e. Isaiah 7:14, etc). Thing is, this is why the NIV remains supreme. It already does this. Albeit now more in a more egalitarian fashion. I suppose that’s why these other contemporary bibles are even being made though – to try to unseat the NIV and take it’s place. But I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

  96. Muff Potter: I much prefer the Jewish version of ‘heaven’, which is a corporeal after life in a world (Olam Ha-Ba) or worlds to come.A place based on the here and now, in which the fleshly delights of this life are carried on and enhanced.
    I have no desire to go to a place of mansions, gold streets, and jewel encrusted vistas.

    But this is what Christ promised you. “My Father’s house has many rooms… I go there to prepare a place for you..”

    You mention Jewish imagery. This is also Jewish imagery. When a man was betrothed, he took over his father’s house and prepared a room for his new bride to move in. This is what Christ promises for his own bride. 🙂

    You are right that there is also another meaning as well though. Luke 17:21 is properly rendered “The Kingdom of God is within you.” Or more to the point, “the Reign of God.” The invitation to God starts in the here and now, but also as eternal reality too. God has domain over all aspects of time. He is the “I am”. He who was, who is, and is to come.

  97. Saraph: What a mess. I know just how much of a mess the Trumper/Never Trumper thing is even in secular circles. It’s got to be an even bigger mess in religious ones.

    Because “in religious ones” EVERYTHING gets elevated to Cosmic Importance.
    Salvation-Level Cosmic Importance.
    GOD or SATAN, nothing in-between.

  98. Max: The New Calvinists are aggressive and militant.They don’t want to join something; they want to conquer it.The SBC was easy-pickins’ for them.The young reformers and their band of elite leaders have plundered and pillaged all the SBC stuff with its billions in assets (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, 47,000 churches, etc.).It took Southern Baptists 150 years to amass that … amazing that they have so willingly surrendered it all to the new reformers in just a few short years.

    “Today the SBC, TOMORROW THE WORLD!”

  99. Mark R: Within the SBC it could be a powder keg waiting to blow.

    If you’re out of the blast radius, pull up a recliner and start making popcorn.

  100. Saraph: Funnily, I’d say the most “model” Calvinists in history were the Puritans, and they themselves struggled and introspected quite a bit whether they were the Elect or not.

    Surviving Puritan journals are filled with Navel-Gazing Sin-Sniffing and very little else.

    How many decades to centuries of Navel-Gazing Sin-Sniffing and Truly Refomed Theology, and women still had to make a saving throw vs death every time they gave birth, most children died before age 10, disease was still caused by “bad smells”, and anyone could die from complications of a small cut.

  101. Headless Unicorn Guy: Surviving Puritan journals are filled with Navel-Gazing Sin-Sniffing and very little else.

    How many decades to centuries of Navel-Gazing Sin-Sniffing and Truly Refomed Theology, and women still had to make a saving throw vs death every time they gave birth, most children died before age 10, disease was still caused by “bad smells”, and anyone could die from complications of a small cut.

    Saving throw? Not a phrase I expected to see here 😛

    I don’t want to give the impression that I’m applauding the Puritans in everything. It’s just funny that they weren’t so sure of their own Election. It almost reminds me of the Reformed version of Catholic Guilt.

  102. elastigirl: what are these courses called? How do they appear in the catalog?

    (surely not “How To Reform Churches To New Calvinism Whether They Like It Or Not”.)

    Introduction to Church Revitalization, just like Andy Davis’ book about how to reform churches to New Calvinism. I have noticed that SEBTS seems to have dropped it from the MDiv requirements, but there’s a good bit of space for electives.

    But also behold this class at SEBTS:

    CED 6500 – ORGANIZATIONAL CHANGE AND CONFLICT RESOLUTION
    An introduction to the principles and challenges of leading organizational change and managing conflict in churches and Christian institutions. It will provide the students with opportunity to explore the role of leader as change agent and in conflict resolution.
    3 semester hr(s).

    Now those of you who have been in churches during takeovers–how much “conflict resolution” was there, really? Because I remember it being all demands and insinuations that anyone who didn’t go along was not a Christian. After I left, the entire staff was kicked out, as were most people who stood up against it.

  103. ishy: I remember it being all demands and insinuations that anyone who didn’t go along was not a Christian. After I left, the entire staff was kicked out, as were most people who stood up against it.

    I should note that church was a mere couple miles from SEBTS and the “takeover” pastor was from SBTS. Who of course claimed he wasn’t Calvinist in the search process…

  104. ishy:
    Now those of you who have been in churches during takeovers–how much “conflict resolution” was there, really? Because I remember it being all demands and insinuations that anyone who didn’t go along was not a Christian. After I left, the entire staff was kicked out, as were most people who stood up against it.

    What exactly are there demands of? What are people conflicting over exactly? What would prompt such an extreme accusation, like “You’re not Christian” and people being kicked out jobs? In my mind, that would have be to complete apostasy, degeneracy, and everyone donning clown costumes during service. I get the impression nothing that extreme is happening here.

  105. I feel like I’m asking a stupid question and missing some big obvious point here. But I’m truly clueless. What could prompt an “evangelical” to find so much wrong about the typical SBC membership? At the risk of sounding offensive, SBC is kind of the milquetoast, all American sort of conservative. It’d be different if we were talking about the liberal wing of Baptists (say, Bill Moyers or MLK). But I don’t understand what would anger these evangelical “leaders” to find so much wrong with SBC members. Frankly, they sound kind of psychotic. At least hearing it from one side of the story.

  106. Saraph: Saving throw? Not a phrase I expected to see here

    But you recognized it.
    (Old school D&Der here, from the time of Three Little Books plus Greyhawk.)

  107. Max: … all the while ‘humbly’ advancing a brilliant takeover strategy.

    And after the Coup comes the Cleansing.

  108. ishy: An introduction to the principles and challenges of leading organizational change and managing conflict in churches and Christian institutions. It will provide the students with opportunity to explore the role of leader as change agent

    It’s interesting because io psych and leading change etc etc are all perfectly innocuous business school type classes…it’s only when you know these background stories that it starts to sound ominous.

  109. linda:
    Out west we found the non denoms were more likely stealth AoG, Nazarene, or 4 Square.SBC doesn’t have a lock on this distasteful marketing ploy.

    Here in SoCal it’s more like “Rebadged Calvary Chapel Clone”.

  110. Max: Lea: I’ve always thought it’s weird that they don’t just go PCA.

    The New Calvinists are aggressive and militant. They don’t want to join something; they want to conquer it.

    “FOR THE REVOLUTION, COMRADES!”

    Does this scene from Chernobyl remind anyone of these church leaders?
    It even ends in a Standing Ovation!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cG3PlcSiLA

  111. Lea,

    I’m of the tentative opinion that the catastrophic explosion was indeed a nucular transient. Tentative because, although I’m quite good at physics, I’m not an expert nucular scientist and haven’t studied the data at first hand. I’m more confidently of the opinion that the root cause of the disaster was socio-political.

  112. Saraph,

    “What would prompt such an extreme accusation, like “You’re not Christian”…”
    ++++++++++++

    in my observation, people don’t come out and say “You’re not a christian”.

    rather, it is implied. expressed with a very grave tone. (with just enough theatrics so that you can rally others to be of the same opinion)

    it could be over anything. male headship is a big one. and anything other than a literal word-for-word biblical interpretation.

    in my observation, many christians are caught in this tractor beam from their professional christian-of-choice, immediately accepting whatever it is they say, whatever they imply. as if their eyes are all swirley, replying ‘yes, masta’.

    scared skittish of God, of hell, of not measuring up, of making God mad… of things they probably they can’t even articulate. scared of absolutely nothing at all, but they’re scared alright = as a conditioned response elicited from their influencer of choice.

  113. Saraph: What could prompt an “evangelical” to find so much wrong about the typical SBC membership? At the risk of sounding offensive, SBC is kind of the milquetoast, all American sort of conservative. It’d be different if we were talking about the liberal wing of Baptists (say, Bill Moyers or MLK). But I don’t understand what would anger these evangelical “leaders” to find so much wrong with SBC members.

    You are seeing one group, but there are two. They are very different and heavily at war. First, the New Calvinists do not consider themselves evangelical nor conservative. For all their political interests, most of the evangelical Baptists believe in free will and the gospel for all. The New Calvinists believe that only a special elite group of Christians, that share the same hypercalvinist beliefs as them and under their strict leadership, are God’s elect. They also pretend to be moderate and open, though that changes radically once you are part of one of their churches and either question them or try to leave. They teach that members should not have any autonomy or authority over their own lives and pastors and elders are absolute authorities to all Christians. They also teach that those pastors and elders can tell who is “in” and who is “out”. And last, they believe women exist to serve men. They have a couple theologies to support this that have been strongly debunked by most other conservative and liberal scholars. One is called eternal subordination of the Son–Jesus made himself lesser so women are supposed to imitate him, while men are in the position of God the Father in authority on earth.

    I was a student at SEBTS when it was “taken over”. At the time, it was the least Calvinist SBC seminary. Two years before, the SBC split because the conservatives and the New Calvinists ousted the moderate and liberal Baptist churches. I use the political terms lightly, because the issues went far deeper than politics or theology, and often came down to whether or not the church wanted certain people in charge of their associations. And to be honest, some of the leaders were very plainly mean, vicious jerks. I’ve met them. Several of them are in jail now or getting sued for terrible things, if that tells you anything.

    The New Calvinists are marked by a heavy emphasis on authoritarianism, elitism, dependence on hierarchies, and they do not read or study anything outside their tribe. They encourage followers and church members to insulate themselves. All these are signs of a cult movement. I get the gnosticism references, but I think some of gnosticism was an early way of talking about cults, which tend to have very consistent strategies to obtain and keep members for the benefit of authoritarian leaders. And cults can be in any religion or belief system.

    New Calvinist strategy is to go into a church that doesn’t have an authority structure over it, such as Baptists, and take it over by getting a hold of the finances or certain key leaders. They also have gone after nondenominational and some charismatic churches. There’s a New Calvinist movement in the Assemblies of God. Conservative Presbyterians are closer to them in theology, but tend to have large accountability systems which do not allow for individual pastors to quickly obtain a lot of power and money.

    dee has written a lot of articles about New Calvinist Baptist church takeovers, but this post is probably the most detailed:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/05/15/a-successful-church-takeover-using-stealth-strategies-in-the-calvinista-playbook/

  114. elastigirl: in my observation, people don’t come out and say “You’re not a christian”.

    rather, it is implied. expressed with a very grave tone. (with just enough theatrics so that you can rally others to be of the same opinion)

    it could be over anything. male headship is a big one. and anything other than a literal word-for-word biblical interpretation.

    I’ve met a number of YRR who had no problem declaring someone was not elect whenever I or someone else disagreed with them. They use that “You are proving you are not elect because you would understand what I’m saying” line. Their leaders are more subtle, but Al Mohler’s line at the top of the post I just referenced in the last post pretty much says that and isn’t that subtle about it.

  115. I find the discussion regarding SEBTS SO VERY INTERESTING! I was a graduate during the so called “liberal” time; M.Div. 1981; D.Min. 1986. We “liberals” were ruining the SBC and the “conservative resurgence” served to takeover the seminary and keep it “safe.” I can safely say that my professors and fellow students, albeit differences in theology, never discussed taking churches away from their own historical mandates to be the people of God. We were taught to be committed to the mission of the local church to which we were called and to respect the history, tradition, and theological presuppositions of the church. Never were we taught how to “change” or move a congregation from itself.

    And for those who claimed our seminary to be “liberal” and why the seminary had to be saved from itself, allow me to offer the following true story. A cherished relationship God blessed me with was with Dr. Donald E. Cook, Professor of New Testament. He was also the chair of my doctoral committee. In my first seminary class, “Intro to New Testament”, a student challenged Dr. Cook’s conservatism and whether his conservative views would be allowed and if he would be “flunked out” if he did not agree with Dr. Cook.

    Dr. Cook responded, “First, sir, you are my brother in Christ. That is first and foremost. Secondarily, it is my role to assist you in understanding God’s word. We in this class share a holy task. Finally, from an educational standpoint, you may be liberal, moderate, or conservative; that is up to you. My expectation is that you know what you are talking about and may responsibly and ethically represent your position. Our Heavenly Father expects no less as well as the congregations you will serve in the future>

    Despite the supposed liberalism from which the SBC needed to be “saved” in the ’80s, we were taught by those who loved our Lord, reverenced His word, and wanted the best for the local church. Yet they were driven out because of what they “supposedly” taught.

    And just look at what has replaced these liberals . . .

  116. Den, I understand the official LCMS position is what we Baptists and Former Baptist would call close communion.

    My LCMS congregation quietly practices open communion. I bring two disabled people to church every week and they take communion. One is not even baptized. My wife and I took communion before we joined. I think a large percentage of congregations quietly practice open communion.
    I think the LCMS has a congregational policy and the pastors and churches can plot their own course within reason.

  117. elastigirl:
    Saraph,

    “What would prompt such an extreme accusation, like “You’re not Christian”…”
    ++++++++++++

    in my observation, people don’t come out and say “You’re not a christian”.

    rather, it is implied.expressed with a very grave tone.(with just enough theatrics sothat you can rally others to be of the same opinion)

    it could be over anything.male headship is a big one.and anything other than a literal word-for-word biblical interpretation.

    in my observation, many christians are caught in this tractor beam from their professional christian-of-choice, immediately accepting whatever it is they say, whatever they imply.as if their eyes are all swirley, replying ‘yes, masta’.

    scared skittish of God, of hell, of not measuring up, of making God mad… of things they probably they can’t even articulate.scared of absolutely nothing at all, but they’re scared alright = as a conditioned response elicited from their influencer of choice.

    Thanks. I joked earlier about these guys acting like Gnostics (i.e. elitists with secret knowledge), but it sounds worse than that.

  118. Max: Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God.Scripture speaks much about the free will of man.It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension.To put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him.

    Agreed!

  119. ishy:
    But also behold this class at SEBTS:

    CED 6500 – ORGANIZATIONAL CHANGE AND CONFLICT RESOLUTION
    An introduction to the principles and challenges of leading organizational change and managing conflict in churches and Christian institutions. It will provide the students with opportunity to explore the role of leader as change agent and in conflict resolution.
    3 semester hr(s).

    Just an observation, this kind of class is quite common in business schools (I used to work in the Business Studies department of a college, we had one). But… having also worked at a few different types of businesses, I have zero desire to be at a church focused on performance metrics and the bottom line, for example.

  120. elastigirl:
    Saraph,

    “What would prompt such an extreme accusation, like “You’re not Christian”…”
    ++++++++++++

    in my observation, people don’t come out and say “You’re not a christian”.

    rather, it is implied.expressed with a very grave tone.(with just enough theatrics sothat you can rally others to be of the same opinion)

    it could be over anything.male headship is a big one.and anything other than a literal word-for-word biblical interpretation.

    To echo elastigirl, I’ve seen scriptures about a particular topic (evolution, male headship, elder-led v congregational governance, infant v adult baptism, etc.) used as a litmus test for one’s belief in the inerrancy or authority of the Bible.

    If you do not happen to agree with a leader’s particular view of what scripture says about the topic, the thinking goes, then clearly you do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, because “that’s what the Bible says right here in black and white!” Therefore, since you clearly don’t believe in scripture, you are clearly not a Christian. (But all with innuendo and implication and distressed looks and careworn sighs, naturally.)

  121. Sometimes I wonder if I was better off growing up a delinquent and a heathen (or what it amounted to). That it’s been sort of a blessing and curse alike. Believe me when I say I’ve encountered the demonic and (the not so far off) human monsters alike. Growing up, I barely even had much cultural exposure to church life, outside what I saw on TV. And yet in the end, it was God who saved me with miraculous intervention. I won’t get into all of it, but the point I’m getting at is that I was kind of a blank slate. I don’t have “church baggage”.

    I especially didn’t have a “professional Christian” bully guiding me either. It’s sad to me that this is the path some walk. God calls you to more freedom than this. If I’m getting the “type” right, I’m picturing one of those over-compensating dorks who squeezes too hard in handshakes, as a way to express “dominance”.

    Maybe that latter part sounds crude. Maybe it actually is. As much as Christ changed me from what I was, I’m probably still a little too rough around the edges. It’s just a fact that I’ve seen and BEEN much worse, sadly. Hence why I say my personal story is both blessing and curse. This other path of religion doesn’t work on me. And I’m not sure how it works on anyone, for that matter. It may very well just as much apply to some Muslims too. They’re clerics who cajole them into bad behavior are dorks themselves, almost without fail. Yet they have some of kind spell over people.

  122. SiteSeer,

    SiteSeer, thank you for the welcome and replies to my comment. I think I might have died a little if after reading here for over 6 years and finally making a comment, no one had welcomed my entrance. Too much like my real life I guess.

  123. Leah Jacobs,

    I welcome you as well. It makes me a bit sad to think of those wise and articulate old-timers, some who have since passed. I also followed a long time before I ever commented.

  124. Saraph: Yet they have some of kind spell over people.

    It really is a kind of spell. I was under it for almost a decade. When I finally snapped out of it, and tried to explain it to my still enthralled spouse, I was viewed as ‘nuts’. Our children have mostly snapped out of it as well, but the spouse is so firmly entrenched in the echo chamber, there is little hope of exposure to other ideas.

    It is a soul-killing, destructive environment which feeds narcissistic authoritarians and abusers. This blog details much of that.

  125. TS00:
    Max,

    I would posit that most do not know that they have been plundered so.

    “…Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.”

    My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ need to stop overemphasizing the latter. People are not better off for merely being a dove… that on it’s own is just naive or easily taken advantage of. It’s pathetic and weak. Nor did Christ tell us to be such hapless simpletons. Be shrewd too. Understand the depravity and ways of the world. Know it’s tactics, it’s lingo, and frankly, watch your ass. Just be innocent of the depravity. Be vigilant, and shine a light on it.

  126. TS00: It really is a kind of spell. I was under it for almost a decade. When I finally snapped out of it, and tried to explain it to my still enthralled spouse, I was viewed as ‘nuts’. Our children have mostly snapped out of it as well, but the spouse is so firmly entrenched in the echo chamber, there is little hope of exposure to other ideas.

    It is a soul-killing, destructive environment which feeds narcissistic authoritarians and abusers. This blog details much of that.

    Ouch.. I sorry to hear that. I’m glad that your children have come around though. I hope you don’t take my above post (which I just posted before this) in too harsh a tone (the one about innocence and shrewdness). I don’t want to sound too callous about the pain people have gone through. It was sort of meant more as a short pep talk. Not a criticism.

  127. Wild Honey,

    “(But all with innuendo and implication and distressed looks and careworn sighs, naturally.)”
    +++++++++++++++++

    …sucking air through one’s teeth, a deep sigh, slight shaking of the head, slightly closed eyes,

  128. Wild Honey,

    “scriptures about a particular topic (evolution, male headship, elder-led v congregational governance, infant v adult baptism, etc.) used as a litmus test for one’s belief in the inerrancy or authority of the Bible.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i’ve observed The Nashville Statement in this way. I’ve read on=line discussion, in which parties are discussing how so-&-so did not sign the statement, therefore they are not to be trusted. they might not even be a christian. they are a very scary individual.

    it wasn’t expressed this plainly, but the subtext came through loud and clear.

    careers suffer, jobs potentially lost, people are blackballed, lose their friends, their community over things like this.

    My view is that this was the intent behind the Statement. To create in-groups and out-groups, to shore up power.

    it is so insidious.

  129. Bonus indoctrination also via the annual 9Marksism conferences at their schools: ‘9Marks at Southeastern’, ‘9Marks at Midwestern’, ‘9Marks at Cedarville’, etc.

    9Marksist trustees: Jonathan Leeman (SWBTS), Matt Schmucker (Chairman of SBTS Trustees), etc.

    Mark Dever’s recently announced professorship at SBTS: https://www.sbts.edu/academics/faculty/mark-dever/

    also through one-off lectures and chapel appearances, such as 9Mark Dever in 2016 advising soon-to-be-unleashed seminarians at SBTS to ‘avoid labels’ and be careful their sermons don’t ‘smack of’ Calvinism.

  130. elastigirl,

    You are EXACTLY correct. I experienced this in my fundy HS, church, back in the 1970’s…. obviously, the latest “Statement” did not exist, but similar “treatment” of non-conformers.
    Yes, these “statements” are used as a tool to “divide”…. funny, the leaders like to label “trouble makers” as divisive, yet they routinely put forward documents that are divisive.

  131. I was asked the other day “Where I attended grad school?” I was too ashamed to tell them SWBTS and told them, ” I only have a Bachelor’s.”

  132. KD,

    I think it is wonderful that you pursued a grad degree-no matter where. I respect that drive in you.Say it and be proud.

  133. Sopy
    Get something straight. I cannot control the ads that dome with the videos. It’s beyond my control. So, if you don’t like it, don’t watch it. Your comments is not approved. You are smarter than this.

  134. KD: I was asked the other day “Where I attended grad school?” I was too ashamed to tell them SWBTS and told them, ” I only have a Bachelor’s.”

    My son-in-law (a true-blue Gospel preacher) has a Masters degree from SWBTS. He pursued it and earned it for the right reasons. Hold your head high, your degree is worth something in the Kingdom of God, despite the current condition of the SBC kingdom where you obtained it.

  135. TS00: I would posit that most do not know that they have been plundered so.

    My dad used to say that there are three types of people in the world: (1) those who plan to make things happen, (2) those who make things happen, and (3) those who eventually ponder “What happened?!” The average Southern Baptist is in the latter category. Easy pickins’ for the New Calvinist movement … they’ve had their pockets picked and their stuff plundered, and they ain’t got a clue.

  136. elastigirl,

    These things would be great to discuss!
    Pretentious old sods like me would enjoy it immensely.
    TWW used to have a separate forum for this stuff.
    But alas, it’s gone now.
    Maybe the owner of the blog would would indulge us riff-raff (i speak for myself only with said epithet) by resurrecting the free topic thread?

  137. Ella: In terms of Calvinist contexts and how others and I have been affected by those (I didn’t grow up in it-even the old brand): I noticed and sort of appreciated in a sad/mixed way about the documentary last summer about Fred Rogers. His widow shared some personal aspects of his last moments saying that Fred was asking her if he was a sheep or a goat and her response of reassurance was that if anyone was a sheep it was him. I like, too, how she said “Thank you,” at the end of the filming.

    I found that very touching, too.

    If anyone is a sheep, it would have to be Mr. Rogers. He devoted his entire life to kindness and to helping others, especially children.

    And there are so many who have complete confidence that, of course, they not only are sheep but also have the power to decide whether others are sheep or goats, and yet who show no fruits of the spirit in their own lives.

  138. ishy: Now those of you who have been in churches during takeovers–how much “conflict resolution” was there, really? Because I remember it being all demands and insinuations that anyone who didn’t go along was not a Christian. After I left, the entire staff was kicked out, as were most people who stood up against it.

    “Conflict resolution” – “my way or the highway”

  139. Sopy

    You have two problems.
    1. Adults do. note red protection.
    2. I make no money in this venture. Thanks for being so free with my money.

    Comment not approved.

  140. Max: Easy pickins’ for the New Calvinist movement … they’ve had their pockets picked and their stuff plundered, and they ain’t got a clue.

    “I go chop you dolla,
    I make you money disappear;
    Four-One-Nine just a game —
    You be the MUGU,
    I be the MASTA!”
    — “I Go Chop You Dolla”, Nigerian pop song about a con man

    Nigerian expressions in the lyrics:
    “Chop You Dolla” = literally “eat your money”
    “Four-One-Nine” = a swindle
    “Mugu” = fool, in the sense of being an easy mark

  141. dee: Sopy

    You have two problems.
    1. Adults do. note red protection.
    2. I make no money in this venture. Thanks for being so free with my money.

    Comment not approved.

    May the force be with you Sopy.

  142. Brian:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,
    Bethel Temple in Redding California?

    Which is now in the news for attempting to Raise a dead two-year-old through Prayer.

    Before that, they were known for laying down on graves of those they considered “Extra Holy” to Spiritually soak up their Anointing.

    I know someone who grew up in Redding, AKA the southern tip of the Mount Shasta Triangle, Weird Religion Capital of Northern California. At the mention of the name, his response was “That CULT?” So it’s got a reputation.

  143. elastigirl:
    Wild Honey,

    “(But all with innuendo and implication and distressed looks and careworn sighs, naturally.)”
    +++++++++++++++++

    …sucking air through one’s teeth, a deep sigh, slight shaking of the head, slightly closed eyes,

    Two words: PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
    Plausible Deniability worthy of Soviet Bureaucracy or a Sociopath.

  144. Max: My son-in-law (a true-blue Gospel preacher) has a Masters degree from SWBTS. He pursued it and earned it for the right reasons.

    But he’s still tainted by association with their antics.

  145. Saraph: Yet they have some of kind spell over people.

    My sociopath younger brother has that ability. He was and is such a master of “reading” someone and using that to manipulate/groom everyone around him it was almost a magickal spell — we’d warn Dad about him, then he would just make a gesture, say a couple words, and Dad would instantly become his lapdog panting on his leash. I AM NOT MAKING THAT UP.

    From my D&D experience, I can identify the spell: Mass Charm Person as intrinsic ability.

    (Charm Person; first-level Magic-user spell causing most favorable reaction roll towards the one who cast it. Effectively, zap someone with Charm Person and no matter what they thought of you before, they become your absolute Best Friend Forever — or at least until the spell wears off. Don’t remember the duration, but that just means you cast it again when it wears off. And again. And again.)

  146. Saraph: But of course, for a Gnostic, even Jesus is turned cryptic and into a mystery himself. Defeating the whole purpose of his Incarnation.

    Then why bother?

  147. Lea: HeadlessUnicornGuy: Chernobyl
    *sidenote* That show was SO GOOD.

    Gotta tell you about an incident I had regarding it at AnthroCon last year. Among the typical fursuits you find as hall costumes there, there was this one guy doing cosplay with the hair, the mustache, the lab coat, and the paper beanie, carrying a black foam block shaped like a graphite block from an RBMK reactor. I approached, resulting in the following exchange:

    ME: What ees Dosimiter reading, Tovarich?
    HIM: Three point Five Roentgens.
    ME: Interesting… Academecian V.A.Legasov of Kurchatov Institute says most common Dosimeter tops out at Three point Five Roentgens; actual radiation level could be much higher but Dosimeter will still read Three point Five.
    HIM: HE IS DELUSIONAL!

  148. Muff Potter: May the force be with you Sopy.

    Peace can not be kept by force. It cab only be kept by understanding. The Lord will send his angel…if not…

  149. If a church is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, it should not be afraid to say so. Though I’m not sure calling itself non-denominational is exactly wrong, since the SBC isn’t a denomination with any real authority. Well sometimes they want to be, and sometimes they don’t.

    I don’t think this trend is limited to the SBC. There are a lot of PCA churches, for example, that don’t broadcast their PCA affiliation, at least not online.

  150. Lea,

    Just because a church partners with the SBC it doesn’t necessarily mean they are a Southern Baptist church.

    If your church contributes to Compassion International that doesn’t make them a “Compassion International Church.”

    Getting upset because some members of another church are not aware of the church’s affiliation with the SBC is tantamount to being upset because your neighbor’s spouse doesn’t know the name of the H.O.A. company… or that these other church members don’t know all of the mission organizations their church supports financially.

    Technically, the SBC isn’t a denomination at all and all participating churches are non-denominational.

    From http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/acloserlook.asp
    “Southern Baptists are not hierarchical, with a top-down denominational structure. In fact, Southern Baptists can only be called a “denomination” in the word’s most general meaning. Churches that practice believer’s baptism by immersion have been “denominated” as Baptists for many centuries. When the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in 1845, it used the term in this general way in the preamble to its Constitution. By doctrine and polity, the SBC cannot and does not unite local congregations into a single “church” or denominational body. Each cooperating Baptist body—local church, association, state convention, and auxiliary—retains its sovereignty and is fully autonomous.

    These autonomous Baptist bodies work together in friendly cooperation to achieve common Kingdom ministries and purposes. Each autonomous Baptist church, association, ethnic fellowship, and state convention participates in SBC causes voluntarily.”

  151. Mike,

    Whether you want to be Baptist or not, you are listed as Baptist churches and your congregation members are counted among the numbers of SBC folks in the US. You are there voluntarily and you are counted amongst the members.

    Whether you like it or not (and I guess you like it or you wouldn’t be there) you and your church members are Baptists. No maybe there are some folks in your church who might leave if they found out they were counted amongst the Baptist n umbers. If so, you have an obligation to let them know exactly what is going on.