Messier 8, this nebula is a star nursery located in the constellation Sagittarius. ESA/Hubble & NASA
“A rattlesnake loose in the living room tends to end all discussion of animal rights.” Lance Morrow
Kevin DeYoung decided to write about the proper way to respond to abuse at The Gospel Coalition in Toward a Better Discussion about Abuse.
it is important to note that DeYoung is one of those theobros whose thinking must not be questioned. In fact, if he had said anything in the past which might be awkward, it must be studiously ignored. Sadly, TGC continues to ignore its own history in this area. I have been blogging since 2009 and I have been following him and the other TGC BFFs since they were pals of CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries (now Sovereign Grace Churches) when they began their quick decline which is best labeled as a “crash and burn.”
CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries (now Sovereign Grace Churches) and the great crash and burn.
If you haven’t heard of Mahaney and SGM, you could spend a depressing evening reading the posts we wrote at TWW. However, the following article at The Washingtonian by Tiffany Stanley is a great way to get a working overview: The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch.
Kevin DeYoung and the dudebros at TGC ardently supported Mahaney amid this debacle.
You have got to read this to believe it. The dudebros refused to speak about the mess. They were buddies with Mahaney and his pastors. I’m sure the speaking fees had nothing to do with it. They were getting slammed all over social media and eventually found it necessary to defend their silence and got Kevin DeYoung to write his post. Why We Have Been Silent about the SGM Lawsuit.
De Young embarrasses himself with this statement.
But now that most of the complaints filed in the SGM Ministries civil lawsuit have been dismissed, it seems an appropriate time to explain our silence and some of our thinking behind it.
The suit was dismissed due to the Statute of Limitations. Many states have now changed those SOL, no thanks to DeYoung who would rather uphold these laws as fair as opposed to recognizing them as unjust as have many states and victims.
We are not ashamed to call C.J. a friend. Our relationship with C.J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement, and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others’ sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C.J.’s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.
Conclusion
We are not in a place to adjudicate all the charges leveled against Sovereign Grace Ministries or the specific individuals named in the lawsuit. The purpose of this statement is not to render a verdict on the charges, nor in any way to trivialize the sins alleged. We realize some will construe this post as confirmation of their worst suspicions, but we trust most of our brothers and sisters will be able to consider our explanation with an open heart and a fair mind. Our silence was not decided upon lightly; neither was our decision to break this silence. Our prayer is that one day—and please, Lord, soon—all who face injustice of any kind will see the Lord bring forth his righteousness as the light, and his justice as the noonday (Ps. 37:6).
This statement reflects the views of the signatories and does not necessarily speak for other Council members, bloggers, and writers for The Gospel Coalition.
The last comment was written because some members of TGC were not pleased that DeYoung and BFFs assumed to speak for all of them. As you know, Mahaney and the SGM brand have seen a well-deserved nosedive in the view of even many members of TGC, including Al Mohler, a friend of DeYoung’s who distanced himself from the goings-on with Mahaney and SGM/SGC. But DeYoung, to my knowledge, has never backtracked from his vigorous defense of Mahaney and SGM/SGC.
In 2018, DeYoung continued to support his friends at SGM/SGC. Sovereign Grace Churches Posts New Response to Rachael Denhollander (Updated with Reactions)
Rachel said there was a problem with abuse in SGM, SGM continued to deny it and Kevin played their good buddy.
Kevin DeYoung is associated with the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC), which should raise red flags for those seeking abuse counseling.
Plugin DeYoung’s name into the ACBC website and see the numerous articles, podcasts, and speaking engagements he has with this organization. I have written extensively about this group, quoting directly from their materials. Please go to this last post that I wrote on this group: Why (ACBC) Biblical Counseling Will Continue to Throw Counselors Under the Bus. At the top of the post, you will see links to numerous, and what I consider disturbing, posts on the practices of this institution. I cannot imagine recommending that a vulnerable and abused person seek help from those who espouse these counseling beliefs. I question their education of weekend warrior counselors who are not required to have any relevant degree to get certified by this group.
Here is one post that I wrote. Biblical Counseling: Anyone Can Do It, Sin Is the Focus, Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed and Women Should Beware
- Biblical counseling is focused on sin which is the basis for the counseling issue.
- Confidentiality is not guaranteed and reports could be made to pastors, leaders, husbands, etc.
- It only recognizes complementarianism.
- Women must submit to their husbands.
- Secular psychology is *a pack of lies.*
- Anyone is capable of being a biblical counselor.
- The local church is in charge (Is this another TGC/Acts 29 group?)
- Women must never be in any sort of teaching authority over men and that includes counseling. But men shouldn’t counsel women due to the impropriety of it all. It is all *biblical.*
For now, focus on the emphasis on sin which is the basis of such counseling along with the view that women must be submissive to their husbands and not have any teaching authority over men. I believe this view often leads to abused women not being heard.
I believe that Kevin DeYoung is no expert on the care and support of victims of abuse yet he undertakes to tell the rest of us his “Better” way to discuss and understand abuse.
DeYoung seems to have no problem in defining abuse as sexual abuse against children and domestic violence against women although he does not define what constitutes said violence. I know he is friendly with John Piper so does thins mean all violence or violence that occurs after being smacked around for an evening or so? I am always suspicious when these guys do not define their parameters since I have seen them play around with definitions in the past. My guess is there might be some qualifiers here.
He does agree that some churches have failed to report abuse as well as not place safety measures in place. I assume this means for children’s programs. I’m not sure how to interpret this statement.
These failures may include: failing to put proper safety measures in place, failing to act in a timely manner, failing to warn others and share information with pertinent parties or assemblies, failing to include women (when appropriate) in matters of domestic abuse,
Are there any qualifiers for the inclusion of men “When Appropriate?”
Quick digression: Most non-Christians are opposed to the sexual abuse of children and even the physical abuse of women. This is hardly a Christian stance and DeYoung fails to impress on this matter.
Genuine versus fake victims
Given DeYoung’s apparent inability to define “genuine” victims in the SGM/SGC story, his “better” points should be called into question. He made some good statements regarding the misuse of Matthews 18 and in not treating victims as a threat to be neutralized. I actually liked how he worded that. But… read this.
the first instinct of Christian leaders should be to help genuine victims.
I’m not sure if DeYoung intends this but he comes across as one who views victims with suspicion. Remember he has a history of this when it came to CJ Mahaney and SGM. He hardly came out swinging for the genuine victims of SGM. I would love for him to tell us what constitutes a “genuine” victim but I bet he’d decline.
Whiny “But I care” baloney
DeYoung appears to believe that people get attacked if they offer a nuanced point of view. There is a reason for this, especially in DeYoung’s case. He offered all sorts of nuanced points of view in support of his friend Mahaney and Mahaney’s churches. When DeYoung jumped the shark, continuing to support his friend in spite of a rising amount of evidence, he lost his ability to show us the *better, nuanced* way. He needs to acknowledge his own mess and speak to it. Frankly, that train has left the station, and DeYoung is left behind on the platform, trying to figure out how to get to Louisville.
Unlike other pastoral or theological topics—any efforts at nuance or dispassionate analysis are completely off limits. As a result, people are often pushed to opposite sides: You either get it and are 100% on the right side, or you are an oppressor and part of the problem.
No one expects preaching to be the same as an intimate counseling session.
Given DeYoung’s participation in the ACBC style of counseling, I would fall off my pew if he showed an ounce of understanding of what is involved in a counseling session. Those sessions apparently (read my posts above) spend lots of time focusing on the sins of the victims.
Kevin DeYoung is part of the culture and system that causes people not to trust pastors when it comes to abuse
This one is quick. See above on DeYoung and the SGM mess.
It’s true, the system—and those in it—can fail victims and cover tracks for the abuser. And yet, we should be cautious about charging “the culture” with producing iniquity—a charge that is usually impossible to prove or disprove. We must not impute guilt to anyone and everyone who is somehow connected to “the system.”
I had to laugh at the following statement. DeYoung was right on up there with SGM, close and personal. He bears some responsibility for his refusal to see what was in front of him.
A commitment to helping victims should not necessitate second-degree (let alone third- or fourth-degree) separation from anyone deemed “controversial” or from those who have been accused of abuse without due process.
Here is where we get to the meat of the matter. What is abuse when DeYoung speaks of it?
abuse has become an ever-expanding term.
…Not too long ago, if you said “abuse” everyone would have assumed you meant physical harm or the sexual exploitation of a minor. As I said earlier, it is important to realize that there are ways we can be powerfully sinned against that don’t involve anyone laying a finger on our bodies. The problem is not in recognizing the many ways we can sin and be sinned against. The problem is in forestalling further questions and conversations by simply mentioning the word “abuse.”
In his world, gruff personalities and ill-conceived jokes may not be considered. Except, DeYoung has never been a woman in an office in which men tell sexually inconsiderate jokes regularly. What about Dave Ramsey, who was accused of drawing a gun during a staff meeting. The problem with DeYoung is that he doesn’t define his terms. As for gruff, can we talk about James MacDonald? Who gets to define gruff and what that means? De Young rarely defines his terms.
DeYoung believes people should not expect him to immediately advocate for victims when there are serious accusations made.
Yep, and DeYoung wins the gold medal in this arena.
What I am saying is that we should not expect that immediate and unquestioned advocacy is the only appropriate response—indeed, it may sometimes be the wrong response—when serious allegations are made. No matter how much we want to listen to and sympathize with people in their pain, there must be a place for fact-finding, for hearing from both sides, and for objective analysis—whether from journalists, boards, pastors, investigators, or whomever.
Just in case anyone thinks that I always believe something immediately, I don’t. Several people have stories that I have not told because I needed further facts. I know that I disappointed them but I am satisfied that I made the right decision. However, I didn’t write some silly article like DeYoung: Why We Have Been Silent about the SGM Lawsuit. Good night! I would think he would be embarrassed…
The most serious problem with DeYoung’s essay? Power disparity is far more than being bigger and stronger.
As I have mentioned, the type of biblical counseling that DeYoung promotes is one in which the victim’s sin is often the focus. In other words, if you went out on a date, you kissed your date whom you didn’t know well and he began to rape you, you need to figure out how you sinned. Yeah, the dude shouldn’t have raped you but you better figure out what your sins included.
DeYoung makes a serious mistake in this next section. He limits the certified™ Christian allowable power disparity to minors and someone being physically overpowered. This is where I believe he is seriously mistaken. Then again, having read much of the ACBC website, I’m not surprised. Those guys (yes only men can lead this group-read my posts) better be careful. One day, one of their guys will fall down this rabbit hole.
we must acknowledge that even when we were sinned against, we are still responsible for the sins we commit. The existence of a power disparity, for example, does not automatically eliminate personal agency. Clearly in some situations—when dealing with minors, for example, or when one is physically overpowered—there is complete vindication of guilt. But in other cases, the one with lesser power can still bear moral responsibility, even if the one with greater power is guilty of a much more heinous transgression (see Westminster Larger Catechism 151). If Joseph had slept with Potipher’s powerful, conniving, and threatening wife, she would have had the greater sin, but Joseph’s actions would still have been a great wickedness and sin against God (Gen. 39:9).
The power differential is a well-studied phenomenon. Let me describe it in terms of licensed clinical social workers/counselors. Did you know that a counselor can go to jail and lose their license if they have sexual relations with a counselee? In some states, a pastor can be arrested and go to jail for having sex with a congregation member. This would include having sex with people who have reached the age of majority. Why is this? When vulnerable, hurting client accepts counseling help, they form a trusting relationship with the counselor. Counselors and pastors are gifted. They can use that vulnerability to play “head games” with the counselee. An overpowering and charismatic personality who understands how to manipulate individuals can lead to a sexual relationship. DeYoung overlooks the pain, suffering, and vulnerability with which a client approaches a counselor. Yet, in his *sin is everything* world, it sounds as if he would discipline one of his congregation caught up in this dynamic. And that is dangerous.
DeYoung doesn’t understand the story of Joseph. Joseph was a strong personality. Potipher was blatant like that dirty old man in anoffice. Potipher was not a trusted confidant of Joseph, unlike a counselor or pastor who is supposed to help their client.
If I am right about this, I would recommend that a vulnerable church member of DeYoung’s church seek professional counseling outside by a well-educated counselor. His thinking on this matter could be painful to a vulnerable churchgoer.
I wish I had a Twitter account. I’m not even 10 seconds into DeYoung’s article, and there’s already so much opportunity.
DeYoung: “I admit I am concerned that correcting the church’s failures when it comes to abuse has given way in some places to an unhealthy overcorrection.”
Wild Honey: “I wonder if this is how Pope Leo X felt about Martin Luther.”
Going to be laighing my guts out.
“Admitting he is concerned”, and his “genuineness” over the “genuine”, are so high handed given how it contradicts the rest of what he has “admitted”. The words Uriah, and Heep, come to mind. This personage is touted by commerce as an “intellectual”, and his albatross-like “endorsements” are on the back covers of and inside the front covers of countless books we ought to be suspicious of.
I remember when “sin was the focus”, it was a non-TGC church, they were actually trying to get us to blackmail ourselves (into complicity in their trickery) by what THEY had “got on” us.
The churches that don’t care about sin, on the basis that they claim not to be into blackmailing (as if sin questions really only had to do with blackmailing) are merely a variation.
I can’t believe Don Carson turned coat, at one time he actually wrote “From triumphalism to maturity” AGAINST the superapostles.
“nuanced points of view”
… so the “nuance” POV that when someone is assaulted maybe they were asking for it? How they dressed? Or their side glance was an invitation?
All these blah blah arguments and explanations for not dealing with CSA, be it child sexual abuse or clergy sexual abuse. Reading their blather makes one want to take a shower.
Jesus: “I never knew you.”
4 words. Done.
Like remove the predator (rattlesnake loose in the livingroom) to save the children?
À propos “genuine victims”: the leaders in many churches, not just the calvinistas, hate victims, because in your quality as victim you are not the sinner, but the sinned against.
That makes it difficult to tell them “you are a sinner, you are guilty, you are worthless and only deserving of the death penalty, you are totally depraved”.
That’s why there are so many passive-agressive statements out there, mostly by conservative men, about what they call “victim culture”.
And who can forget the guy talking about “legitimate rape” – substitute “genuine” for “legitimate” here, it’s the same idea, that many abuse victims are nit *really* abuse victims because the abuse wasn’t that bad, they called it upon themselves by their behaviour, iow, they deserved it.
I don’t knoow how to make such a man see the things he doesn’t want to see, particularly now that they have declared empathy a sin.
Also this:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when that man’s salary depends on his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
I wonder how many “genuine victims” from Sovereign Grace Ministries/Sovereign Grace Churches Kevin DeYoung has spoken with?
This is a bizarre comment in so many ways: there are still so many church failures that haven’t even begun to be addressed; the amount of ‘overcorrection’ (if even a thing) is surely very small, & no amount of ‘overcorrection’ should be putting anyone off correcting the church’s failures over abuse, that’s righteous & just work.
It comes across as dragging heels on needed correction due to a spurious reason, looking for ways to not take abuse seriously enough, lest they take it too seriously. I don’t think sexual abuse, especially of children, or any kind of abuse in the church can be taken too seriously, can it? Whose church is it?
Ava Aaronson,
But good old Ravi could “preach so well”! So what, some poor massage girls were so tempting to him that he created a business to bring them in country to do his bidding… yup, exposing RZIM is just “overcorrection”…
And don’t forget, it OK RZ lied about his “credentials” for decades.. pointing out lying like that is also “overcorrection”…. Heck, we all know how corrupt all those “secular humanists” are…
Southerners have the SBC; the North gave us Driscoll, Piper and Wilson; then there’s SGM which originated on the East Coast.
There’s a patriarchal dismissive brand for every region.
BeakerN,
Amen
Maybe public castration of these perverts would be “overcorrection”, but hey, main line, church leaders literally burned people, “In Public” for much lesser “offenses” centuries ago..
Arrives in USA:
1. Uses freedom of religion to set up his theo-brand as a platform for power and money
2. Uses capitalism to hire women (for sex) via his entrepreneurial business
3. Uses an American wife and kids for cover, even after he’s gone.
Who says the Gold Rush is over?
Big bad snake oil branding.
Ava Aaronson,
Not just his family, you should have seen all the “evangelicals” trying to “justify” his lying about his credentials… including claiming it is OK to lie/exaggerate about credentials from his country/culture… And good old RZ grew up in…. Canada….
But CSA is a Privilege of Pastoral Rank!
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!!!”
Great quote.
There are no genuine victims of SGM. Mahaney said so and DeYoung is his buddy.
DeYoung is crazy busy…don’t expect him to be immediately available to help counsel vulnerable people who pay his salary. That tells me about all I need to know.
The only good thing about him being unavailable is that his “counsel” is probably as damaging as the abuse that his parishioners have already experienced.
Deyoung’s “better” discussion of abuse is another form of abuse in itself … it’s an abuse on the intelligence of those who have voiced concern about the dudebros’ support of Mahaney for years, an abuse on the maturity of those within the Body of Christ calling for religious leaders to get serious about these issues, an abuse on believers who desire to remove darkness from the church rather than compromising with it. Rather than address “abuse” through a better discussion, Deyoung et al. just make things worse through such shallow dialogue.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
It’s absolutely shocking to me that Christians don’t take sexual abuse, especially that of children, more seriously, I just don’t get it. Consenting sexual sin seems to be taken more seriously. Completely bizarre.
“failing to include women (when appropriate) in matters of domestic abuse,”
I imagine men get to decide when it’s appropriate.
Like I was told to report suspected abuse to the senior pastor first. He would decide if police should be involved. I didn’t long continue at that place and I would never follow those instructions.
BeakerN,
I completely agree….
Question for anybody: what is a Stephen minister and your opinion on them and why? The little I know about them, they have no qualifications to be ministering to people. If promoted by a church which sponsors them, and if one has an issue with them, I assume the church will essentially say, well, you came to the Stephen minister. No one forced you to come.
Maybe it’s all good, I just want information.
dee,
Spin doctors.
Godith,
In the past, our church had a Stephen program of rank-and-file visiting shut-ins. Visit. Say a Psalm. Say a prayer. See what church could do for them. Etc.
Never counseling.
Now, let’s not give rattlesnakes too bad of a name – while I wouldn’t be happy to find one in my house or my sleeping bag, I have come across them a couple of times while hiking, as have others I know, and they are not the most “grouchy” snake looking to attack people w/o reason. They usually retreat or give warning (by rattling) and only bite in defense when the warning is not heeded.
These “ministers” (not) are much more heinous than rattlesnakes!
… by a “Nouthetic” counselor who was certified after taking a short on-line course.
My Father-in-law had a Stephen minister after his wife died – we didn’t live in the same state, but my impression was the minister provided company and comfort after the loss, basically ongoing support.
No matter how CHRISTIAN he is or how much SCRIPTURE he quotes.
My writing partner (the burned-out country preacher) describes Biblical/Nouthetics as “Put the client’s head on your desk, then take your biggest heaviest Bible and beat him over the head with it as hard as you can until he cries ‘Uncle!’.”
I’m pretty sure he’s had to counsel victims of Biblical/Nouthetic Counseling.
And War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Two Plus Two Equals Five, and The Chocolate Ration has been INCREASED from Twenty Grams to Ten.
And they’d do it again if they could.
Muff Potter,
Adams and Jefferson could see these guys coming from afar, and they took steps to ensure that they’d never accrue the kind of power they so desperately covet.
It would be as brutal a dictatorship as any the world has seen.
From the Westminster Confession of Faith: “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;”
Could anyone who believes in the WCF, such as DeYoung, truly condemn abuse? Because to say that abuse should not have happened would be equal with saying God should not have ordained it. They can only embrace it as something God wisely ordained.
That is a truly sick element of New Calvinism. This aberrant theology misrepresents the very character of God in so many ways. The NeoCal movement needs to end before more followers are led down that path. Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To attempt to put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator. And Lord knows there is no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinism; it is the defining characteristic of NeoCal leaders and their movement.
From DeYoung’s article,
[quote]We must allow for the possibility that sheep can mislabel as “abuse” what is, in fact, necessary pastoral correction and oversight. [/quote]
Nearly every pastor who has been accused of spiritual abuse claims that it was “necessary pastoral correction” and therefore not abuse.
The “sheep” are mislabeling it. Yep, blame the poor misguided sheep who need to be corrected.
Ouch. Those beliefs are what cause the power differentials that lead to abuse.
If you think I’m being overwrought, please list a case of abuse where a power differential between perpetrator(s) and victim(s) didn’t exist. Abuse is by definition a crime of power. You can’t successfully abuse someone if you don’t have the power to do so (not that such situations can’t cause damage to the person(s) attacked).
I already knew about this guy. He’s as toxic as they come, and the reason so many are leaving the church IMO.
This is a set-up for wolves to enter the sheepfold to use and abuse sheep any way they want to. We’ve been warned about wolves in sheep’s clothing, but the wolves have found that shepherd’s clothing works much better.
Max,
Amen
Child sex abuse IS A CRIME.
What don’t these dudebros. get about that?
Law enforcement are the first ones who should be told.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
And they didn’t notice his bad theology and distorted teachings decades ago;
I think the board members / directors ought to be assumed to be the mathematicians (who ought to have known how to add up) until or unless they (the mathematicians) themselves name anyone else as the actual ones. They obviously performed due diligence before becoming Marjie’s employees.
And another thing, a mathematician with a genuine evangelising gift (something different) should not have been diverted by some deceiver into sham “apologetics”. Maths need apologetics.
A major chunk of the C of E was shoulder to shoulder with this outfit for decades together with the once “trendy” Brompton, the New Wine firm, and Luther Pendragon (the “consultancy” outsourcer which substitutes for diocesan staffs).
Combined with stealing parish moneys off parishes, the C of E authorities continually undermine morale and very cognition throughout parishes with their non stop salvo of new models, then claim this as proof “old” models don’t work, as cover for the ingrained brutalising mentality in the British establishment. (This has been covered in greater detail elsewhere.)
We both do, and don’t do that, because both arguments are simultaneously convenient.
How we thank the courageous ones for coming forward.
Is religion trying to nonplus us?
it seems to me that the real purpose of a ‘good ‘ole boyz club’ in patriarchal circles is to serve as a ‘front line’ intervention to avoid a victim from going to the law and reporting clerical abuse, to attempt to keep the victim intimidated by charging the victim with ‘you must have done something to cause the rape/abuse incident’ (guilt trip attempt) which involves heavily shaming the victim, and finally to insulate the perp as ‘one of our own’ so the whole pack of these jerks won’t start smelling to high heaven if the news gets out.
Victim blaming? One of the demon activities that climbs out of the hell of misogyny among males who worship themselves as ‘superior’ to women and therefore able to throw stones without regard for their own culpability.
But the sad thing is that Christian ministry takes a hit as this kind of double-abuse of a victim OF COURSE harms the witness of a faith community to Christ. I mean, if the LEADERSHIP is in on contributing to the heaviness of the burden of shame and double-abuse leveled on those who looked to them for Christian ministry, where then do the victims go for help???
God forbid they fall into the clutches of a phony ‘counselor’ who serves only the interests of the perps.
Sad business….. Misogyny is a great sin practiced by men who worship ‘maleness’.
The practice of misogyny against victims of abuse hurts those who attempt to shame and blame as well as the victims who are abused AGAIN by the shaming attempts. There are no ‘winners’ here.
I have been lurking here for some time but this is my first time commenting. I was prompted to comment because I am a former Roman Catholic and the article you link is exactly like RC priests talking about abuse. The likeness is actually striking – they say nobody would condone abuse but immediately go on to say how unfair it is that people assume priests are abusers now (I’d call that a natural consequence of the church’s treatment of abusers) and that false claims are made. They are also way too quick to say the problem is fixed.
Also strikingly like Sovereign Grace, the impact of the abuse crisis in the west is devastating….
The power imbalance is strikingly similar as well…
All in all a remarkable parallel.
“Choose this day whom you shall serve,” said an OT voice.
That’s what followers do. Choose. There were, are, & will always be shiny idols, religious celebrities and movements. Dylan sang, “Gotta serve someone.”
Follow Jesus, IMHO, is our best choice.
While DeYoung et al teach against accountability for CSA and against empathy, Jesus’ teaches the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Those who teach/live against Jesus risk their Eternity when Jesus will say, “I never knew you.”
Anti-empathy and anti-accountability as well as secret sex slaves (RZ), are a big deal.
Wonder where RZ is now? Asking Father Abraham to send Lazarus with a drop of water?
And RZ’s incognito Board still hiding his secrets? Are they on the same path, and will join RZ? Or, will they repent before it’s too late?
So little time… such big choices. High stakes of Eternity. Real.
I think that a question that is worth asking, and that ought to be of keen interest to practitioners of Biblical Counseling — since that is concerned with questions of ‘heart motivation’ and ‘what is the person living for?’, is ‘why does the person follow Jesus?’
IIRC, in Mahaney’s book with Boisvert, How Can I Change? , in a chapter authored by CJ it was affirmed (my paraphrase) that people had better shape up if they wanted nice things in the afterlife.
Whatever might have been useful (and I recall nothing about it other than the above affirmation by CJM), this glimpse into the heart motivation issue of ‘why follow Jesus?’ soured me on that book and on CJM — back circa 2000 before the great scandals had come to light. Basically, the approved answer seems to have been “follow Jesus for what’s in it for you”. And this is an attitude I have encountered in other leaders.
I don’t think that’s the Philippians 2 ‘mind of Christ.’
Cryptic announcement in December, of GARBC leader’s departure (has already been scrubbed from the group’s website):
https://web.archive.org/web/20211216172150/https://www.garbc.org/ministry-highlights/announcement-regarding-the-garbcs-national-representative/
[General Association of Regular Baptist Churches]
“Announcement from David Strope, Chairman of the Council”
“Mike Hess was asked for his resignation from service as national representative of the GARBC due to choices he made that were inconsistent with the standards of his office. His resignation was willingly tendered on December 8, 2021”
“Questions may be directed to David Strope at dstrope@garbc.org or 515-639-0523″
This guy Mike Hess attended Hyles-Anderson College, but reinvented himself as Young Restless Reformed: was involved in Timmy Brister’s ‘Band of Bloggers’, featured in KEVIN DEYOUNG’s book Why We Love the Church: In Praise of Institutions and Organized Religion (2009).
In the 2010s, Hess went incognito with the YRR stuff (locked down his blog) in the run up to GARBC leadership.
Check out his Blogger “About Me” from back in the day:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071029204721/http://www.blogger.com/profile/01926380982576801402
2018, he’d risen to top office of GARBC, and we see minor TGC Council Members being invited as keynote speakers at the GARBC Annual Meetings (Mark Vroegop 2019, Steve DeWitt 2020), promotion of 9Marksism, etc., even an official GARBC meet-up at the upcoming last-hurrah T4G Conference (still on, but hosted by Hess’s successor).
Damage control well underway:
GARBC February 2022 Update
https://www.garbc.org/bb-pulse/february-2022-bb-pulse-kerry-watkins
“Our interim national representative, David Strope, will continue holding online meetings for pastors…These meetings are by invitation only, as we want to keep them small enough to have time to answer everyone’s questions.”
“In that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name … and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7:22-23)
“Do not participate or even associate with them in the rebelliousness of sin” (Ephesians 5:7) … “thereby share responsibility for the sins of others” (1 Timothy 5:22)
Repent or else! (Jesus)
Don’t call Pastor … Call 911!
When you point a finger at someone, three others are pointing back at you … “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matthew 12:37)
Max,
At least in my fundy world upbringing, there was an “air” of superiority over all the “ heathens”, including law enforcement. When you think you have the most spiritual “way”… and “you” are second degree separatist, i.e., you do not fellowship with heathens, OR fellowship with other “Christains” that do fellowship with heathens, it is not hard to “slip into” a thinking that you really have the correct path to righteousness… if so, why let “heathens” deal with the moral/legal failings of you “bros” when you got the correct path??
When you start thinking you have arrived, it’s a sure sign that you haven’t.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Never underestimate the Arrogance of God’s Special Pets.
And risk Excommunication/Shunning and Eternal HELL?
On the level of the Khmer Rouge with their Perfect Ideology, and for much the same reasons.
Utter RIGHTeousness plus Absolute Power is one bad combination for everybody except the Inner Ring on top, holding the whip while they polish their halos.
i.e. The favorite verse of today’s Anti-Maskers/Anti-Vaxxers/Pandemic Deniers.
… who alone hold truth, sole keepers of God’s Special Theology
And notice: all through the Bible we are to choose life when we choose who will serve. Kinda makes anti mask/anti vax look silly as they choose death.
Voila! My full reaction: https://www.whyhavewefasted.org/a-reaction-to-kevin-deyoungs-better-discussion/
Good Lord! How is it possible to “over-correct” when it comes to child abuse by church leaders?!! It seems to me that “correcting the church’s failures when it comes to abuse” would be an extremely healthy thing for the Body of Christ to do.
Was Jesus over-correcting when He said “Whoever harms one of these little ones would be better off if he were thrown into the sea with a great mill-stone hung round his neck!” (Mark 9:42)?
Their theology insists such crimes are ordained by God. Since God cannot ordain evil, the abuse then must not be evil. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with it, and those who oppose the abuse are opposing God’s will. Etc.
“That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.”
– John Calvin
So God secretly directs pastors to commit evil, to abuse children?! That’s what my dear Father called “stinkin’ thinkin'” Calvin was a mess – he misrepresented the character of God and caused millions over the centuries to follow his aberrant belief and practice.
dee,
If you were to ask Devin DeYoung if you could interview him and ask him to respond to commenters’ questions here (with ground rules of politeness),… wonder if he’d say “yes”.
I assume he stands by his convictions and is open to correction and changing course. Therefore, what is there for him to fear?
Jerome…I want to respond to you, but I am unable to “Reply & quote…” or “Reply to this comment.” (I do not know why I am not allowed. I do not believe I have done anything wrong and nobody contacted me to tell me I did.)
Anyway….I have been researching the bizarre removal, since last December, of Mike Hess with some ‘insiders’ and have received silence. This is wrong. Yes…all is now wiped clean. Why??? I have learned here that hiding and cover-ups go against God’s plan.
Thanks for posting your comments.
I don’t believe all Calvinists are abusers or support abusers. But Calvinist determinism certainly enables it, so it is not at all surprising for Calvinists not to take abuse seriously. Why should they if it was ordained by God?
This has been a problem for the last few months with certain browsers. I’ve had no problem with Firefox on my Android phone or my Windows PC.
… is a major reason why 90+% of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of Calvinism for the last 500 years. Think about it .. every thought, choice and event throughout human history were predestined by God?! What a preposterous view of God and man, so contrary to reason and common sense, so out of sync with the whole of Scripture! Hard-core determinists are a scary bunch; hyper-Calvinism is a scary religion.
Jojo, this has been a problem for some of us for a while. I can’t get the reply functions to work if I access TWW using Google, but they work OK when I use my AVG browser. I think it has something to do with a change Google made in regard to “https” vs. “http” sites … I’m not tech-savvy enough to know what this means.
Only if “yes” was predestined.
Max,
I definitely agree with that!
Max,
LOL
Wild Honey,
That was a really good analysis.
In a system where women and children are not viewed as fully human, and where God ordains everything, it should not be surprising that they have such a twisted attitude about abuse. I am pretty sure busy Kevin gladly shared a stage with all of the men quoted below:
“Calvin was once, you know, talking about babies and he said that babies were depraved as rats. I said, ‘that’s the one time I really, really opposed the teaching of John Calvin.’ I said, ‘that’s terribly insulting to the rat.'”
>>R.C. Sproul
“I submit to you that if that 18-month-old baby had the strength of an 18-year-old man, he would slaughter you there where you stand, father, rip the watch off your arm and walk across your bloody body out the door without feeling an ounce of remorse. The Scriptures’ testimony against you and all men is that we are born with evil and we are evil. The first thing you must embrace is this: all men are born in sin and given over to sin and all men are born hating God.”
>>Paul Washer
“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it’s not a little angel. That’s a viper in a diaper. ‘It’s so cute!’ No, that ain’t cute. One of the reasons God makes them so small is so that they won’t kill you. One of the reasons he makes them so cute is so that you won’t kill them.”
>>Voddie Bauchman
“Nowhere or at no point is a man’s depravity more manifest than in the procreative act. You say, ‘why do you say that?’ Well, we know man is a sinner by what he says. We know man is a sinner by what he does. We know man is a sinner by the attitude, the bearing that he carries. We can see on the outside sinful deeds. But how do we know man is a sinner at the base of his character? How do we know man is a sinner at the root of his existence? The answer: by what he creates. Whatever comes from the loins of man is wicked. Because man is wicked. So I say to you, nowhere, then, in the anatomy of a man or in the activity of a man is depravity more manifest than in the procreative act, because it is at precisely that point which he demonstrates the depth of his sinfulness because he produces a sinner.”
>>John MacArthur
Ken F (aka Tweed),
how miserable, inhumane, cruel,… i’m at a loss for the right word, though.
every christian group insists they are right, and others are wrong. they can’t all be right. since obviously we have options, i’m floored people would choose this one.
but really, the arrogance and stupidity it takes to insist that only one’s group is the right one, seems to me the next step is for such groups to subdivide again, each new group now insisting only they are right. And so on.
what a ridiculous state of affairs.
personally, my beliefs are a living sculpture — manicured, pared down, fashioned with new material,
in a fury reduced down to a very small amorphous blob of basic material,
built up again slowly…
finding beautiful things to include from unexpected places that aren’t “supposed to” fit but they do…
and i don’t give a rat’s @$$ what any ‘group’ thinks. it’s really the only way i can maintain my own integrity.
pause monologue
Ken F (aka Tweed),
What a sick and twisted religion.
It’s a good thing that more and more people are walking away from it.
We only see it this way because we misunderstand Calvinsm. And we slander these men by quoting them.
😉
Wherever there is a twisted view of God, there will be a twisted attitude about everything! The New Calvinist God does a lot of stuff that is not in Scripture … you wouldn’t want to hang out with him. Women who are mere derivatives of men, depraved children, and a greatly diminished Jesus are in the NeoCal Kingdom … but not in the Kingdom of God.
Ahhh … but we do understand the tenets of Calvinism, along with 90+% of Christendom worldwide. It’s a maze of twisted Scripture and twisted views of the Creator. Everyone who truly knows Jesus has rejected this aberrant theology for the past 500 years. It’s an intellectual pursuit of a God that does not exist except in the minds of ivory-tower elites who have never had a personal encounter with the Living Christ.
I think the evangelical church is far from “overcorrecting” when it comes to abuse.
Ligonier posted this on their FB page a few days ago:
“God has given us our mouths as vehicles to praise Him, but instead we use our mouths to lie and to blaspheme.” —R.C. Sproul
What an interesting assessment of himself and his ministry. When a person claims to be a liar and a blasphemer, we should believe him.
Me too. The more I dive into Calvinism the more I become convinced that it is a sick and twisted departure from what Jesus taught. And quotes like the above are mild compared to others. I know there are many Calvinists who believe it is beautiful and true. But it has to require huge blinders nit to see all the rest.
For all the Calvinists who claim Jonathan Edwards as their home boy, this is what they heartily endorse:
https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/contemplated.htm
This is one of the most disgusting attacks on God’s character I have ever read. It’s no wonder people who follow this twisted theology could think the quotes above are good and honorable.
Also, here is what Jonathan Edwards said about babies:
“It is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments”
Teaching like that puts a whole new spin on “Total Depravity” (one of the tenets of reformed theology). And to think that New Calvinists hold Edwards in high esteem, even wearing “Jonathan Edwards is My Homeboy” t-shirts!
In the meantime, Jesus teaches “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:14)
That’s why New Calvinists avoid the Gospels like Covid! They seldom talk about Jesus and His words in red. Jesus confronts their stinkin’ thinkin’ head on!
Jonathan Edwards said God puts infants in the fires of hell. I wonder what the Bible says about that…
Jeremiah 19:5
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I did not command nor speak of, nor did it ever enter My mind;”
Jeremiah 32:35
“They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.”
Molech likes burning babies in flames. Do they think God is like Baal and Molech?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Sadist.
Dylan sang, “You gotta serve someone,” but with these guys, they gotta rule over someone.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I’d love to see them try and tap-dance round’ these contradictions in their own Bible which show their homeboy (Edwards) to be a manufacturer of falsehood.
I am sure some Calvinists will weigh in with some very compelling reasons for why all those quotes make sense and why I should embrace Calvinism.
Thank you for the link to your excellent blog post, Wild Honey.
From your blog post (A Reaction to Kevin DeYoung’s “Better Discussion”): Following are my initial reactions when reading through what he’s written. Fair warning, I’m apparently wearing my sassy-pants today.
(Bold added by me.)
That. 🙂 And besides the well-written blog post, I love your sense of humour….definitely a blog post worth reading.
Wow! You’re a poet and I didn’t know it!
One of my favorite lines from your piece:
“Listen to what the smoke detector is trying to tell you, Mr. DeYoung. And the firefighters, and the people looking for the fire extinguisher, and the inspector. Otherwise, this house is going to burn down around you while you’re still looking for a new battery.”
Writing off views on Christian watchblogs as just crazies talking or gossip (Robert Morris) ain’t listening to smoke detectors going off all around you.
Some scholars think that “molech” was not a god but a method of sacrifice, sacrificing children, and that Jeremiah has God deploring his people sacrificing their children to him which he ‘had not commanded them’.
(An apparent cognate in Punic/Phoenician does seemingly mean this type of sacrifice.)
Warning: unless you (generic you) KNOW Scripture well, don’t engage in such debate. Otherwise, if you allow a Calvinist to justify the tenets of reformed theology and their cherry-picked “Biblical” interpretations on whatever will leave you as confused as a termite in a yo-yo.
“Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15)
… otherwise you will be left thinking that Calvinism is the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth … and it ain’t! If you go down the New Calvinist road too far, you will eventually go spiritually crazy and may have trouble finding your way back to the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Cynthia W.,
Thank you
Thank you, it’s always nice to meet someone who gets it 🙂
Sigh. Why is it so obvious, and they are so blind?
I think such “Christian” leaders know exactly what they are doing. They are not blind, but want their followers to be … so they steer them away from the light to keep them in darkness.
Once you see it, you can’t un-see it. Once you know it, you can’t un-know it … it gets deep in your knower.
jojo,
Archived “Links” page from Mike Hess’s old solo blog:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070326075337/http://www.extremefundamentalmakeover.com/2006/04/
GARBC links mixed with Founders, 9Marks, Mohler’s SBTS, Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, Nouthetic counseling, CBMW, Monergism dot com.
Archived: his old team blog (with Ken Fields), Hess exulting over John Piper and CJ Mahaney at a T4G conference:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120326060118/http://theworldfrommywindow.blogspot.com/2006/04/whoa.html
Hard to get someone to notice the alarms when he personally benefits from NOT noticing them.
Yup.
Walk in the Light as Jesus is Light?
No, here we have men who prefer darkness and cajoling others into the Darkness.
There’s a special place in Eternity for this bait-and-switch.