Saint Sophie Cathedral-KYIV
Tonight, as I viewed the war in Ukraine, I thanked God for my grandfather and grandmother, who left the area to make a dangerous and challenging move to the US. Some of the family were from LVIV. My father took me as a teen, and we were allowed to visit Odessa and KVIV. Please join me in praying for the good people of that country who have endured being a political ping pong ball in that part of the world.
What does it mean to “act like a Christian?” Does this mean that the self-declared Christian will not sin? Will a board of elders always act in a way that would be “honoring to God?” Does a person who declares himself to be a Christian mean that we should trust them? Should we always trust self-declared Christians who are followed by thousands upon thousands of people who claim that such a person is an incredible Christian because they know how to speak in a way that makes the “Scriptures” come alive?”
Be careful here, or you will find yourself walking into a trap. For those of you who are Christians, I would assume that you might say that all Christians are still sinful, so we should be careful, right? Yet, we act shocked when confronted by serious sin in the church. Somehow, we think we are somehow immune from being sucked into a scam or a cover-up by a present-day Elmer Gantry.
I am a long-time subscriber to Consumer Reports, and I spend lots of time reading reviews on the best baking pans. Throughout the years, I have often been taken in by acquaintances who reassure me that they know which car, dishwasher, or paper towel is the “best bang for the buck.” Usually, their assessments don’t live up to the hype. I would imagine that many readers have had similar experiences. Yet we often fall for simplistic reviews of pastors or churches.
Why should I trust elder boards or pastors?
I could write dozens of posts on the matter. But, it boils down to this.
- Why in the world would I trust a group of elders or pastors whom I don’t know to “discipline” me?
- In other words, why should I sign a “membership contract” which gives a church the right to discipline me without setting up some parameters?
- As most membership covenants stipulate, why should I be expected to “immediately” join another church after leaving a former church?
- Am I expected to do due diligence and subject my life and maybe the lives of my family members after going to a few “good” services?
By trusting, I am making some assumptions.
- The elders are doing their job by carefully overseeing and investigating the pastors.
- The pastors/elders are living exemplary Christian lives.
- The pastors/elder know how to apply discipline justly.
- The elders, pastors, or leaders are not fakes.
Perhaps you might suggest that I implicity trust certain denominations like the SBC…Look at the sex abuse in that group of churches.
Should I trust the theodude’s groups of choice-Acts 29, TGC, ARBCA? You have read this blog, right?
How about the celebrity pastors recommended by these groups? Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, Bill Hybels, CJ Mahaney?
Maybe I should trust some of the quieter dudebros like Matt Chandler David Platt? Well, you know how that’s been going, right?
Then, maybe you think we should pick the theologically serious guys, the ones who really, really know their stuff? Iain Campbell, Ravi Zacharias? OUCH
Ravi Zacharias: Abusive Christian celebrity and a board of directors who let him get away with it.
Christianity Today posted RZIM Spent Nearly $1M Suing Ravi Zacharias Abuse Victim
The report concludes that RZIM’s reputation was severely damaged not only by Zacharias’s moral failures but also by catastrophic lapses of ministry oversight and leadership.
According to Guidepost, it is unclear “how and even if” RZIM can continue with its crippled credibility, but if it does continue, the ministry needs “new, diverse, independent” board members who do “not have any deep personal relationships with Zacharias or his family members.”
Yet Guidepost Solutions itself has a disturbing history. How will they advise RZIM in forming a new, diverse, and independent board?
Read this about the legitimate need for massage therapists. This is ridiculous. Massage therapy is essential, but RZ’s actions were over the top, and no one questioned the following?
The Guidepost investigators did not find evidence that anyone inside RZIM knew about Zacharias’s sexual abuse of massage therapists before it was exposed. Some knew about his financial involvement in Atlanta-area spas, some knew he traveled alone with a female massage therapist, and some knew he used an RZIM scholarship fund to give large sums of money to at least three massage therapists. Still, they told investigators they did not consider any of that morally questionable.
Zacharias legitimately needed massages for his injured back, and RZIM leaders worried only about the possible perception of impropriety.
The following is why I don’t buy the actions of this board or any other panels.
Many top leaders and board members seemed to believe that they were “duped,” Guidepost found. They saw themselves as innocent victims of Zacharias’s master manipulations—not unlike the women he sexually abused.
According to Guidepost, it “may be true” that they were duped, but the board and ministry leadership also actively chose not to ask questions when it was their job to do so.
…“RZIM heavily and unjustifiably relied on Zacharias’s representations, many of which were discernibly dubious,” the report says. “Their veneration (bordering on devotion) for Zacharias and his family contributed to a culture that discouraged honest and open discussion about Zacharias’s conduct and valued loyalty to Zacharias above almost all else.”
To make matters worse, they helped RZ cover his legal fees involving Lori Anne Thompson.
Nixon Peabody filed a federal lawsuit against the Thompsons in August 2017, alleging extortion and racketeering. Before the lawsuit was settled two months later, RZIM paid Nixon Peabody more than $560,000. “RZIM repeatedly wired funds to the law firm,” the report says, “to cover Zacharias’s legal expenses.”
This incident points out the problems with the celebrity leader and pastor culture in today’s evangelical church.
This situation goes far beyond the people running this organization. It also goes to those Christian leaders who loved speaking with RZIM. Many did so without asking anything beyond “You’ve got a board, right? Don’t tell me more.”
Final thought
Todd Wilhelm and I both experienced the worst that churches can offer. Todd was poorly treated by 9Marx. Both of us have a new rule. We don’t join a church immediately just because we are supposed to do so to be “good Christians.” We want to be smart Christians. It took my husband and me over two years to join our current church. We watched how the church was run. We listened carefully to sermons and classes. We talked to many people who were short and long-term church members. We looked at the denomination and understood how things are done.
Finally, we knew we were ready to join when one of the pastors said he was a sinner, just like all of us. Also, we didn’t have to sign a membership covenant… It was worth the wait. We were finally in a position to trust our pastors and the church.
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Praying for Ukraine. Awestruck by their spirit and courage.
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Praying for Ukraine. Stories of bravery of David vs. Goliath are already coming forth. May God deliver the Ukrainian people from evil.
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The question posed in the title of this post is one of the reason, maybe the primary reason TWW even exist. If people did not elevate church leaders, or any leader ( including politicians ), to positions above us pew peons, but instead consider them our “equal”, and equally capable of failing, and were willing to hold them accountable, we would probably be “fellowshipping” here at TWW
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“It took my husband and me over two years to join our current church. We watched how the church was run. We listened carefully to sermons and classes. We talked to many people who were short and long-term church members. We looked at the denomination and understood how things are done.”
Wisdom. My wife once said that it takes two years to really get to know a church, its leaders, and its members. That has been our experience in doing church together in America for 50 years.
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“Does a person who declares himself to be a Christian mean that we should trust them?” (Dee)
Just as living in a garage doesn’t make you a car, going to church doesn’t make you a Christian. Some of the meanest people on the planet are church members … in both pulpit and pew. Behind the Sunday face is a wicked heart of many on church rolls. Trust them only after you ‘know’ them.
“Should we always trust self-declared Christians who are followed by thousands upon thousands of people who claim that such a person is an incredible Christian because they know how to speak in a way that makes the “Scriptures” come alive?”” (Dee)
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. As I’ve said before, anyone with a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks can have a successful ministry in America. The ability to “make the Scriptures come alive” just means someone has a working knowledge of the Bible and a talent to speak eloquently and effectively. Satan knew Scripture.
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Prayers for the people of Ukraine.
My grandmother and her family were stuck on the wrong side of the East-West divide of Germany after WWII. They literally got out by crawling on hands and knees with nothing but the clothes on their backs.
Praying in particular for the civilians caught in the cross-fire.
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I think the question is not so much WHY trust Christian leaders, but WHEN trust Christian leaders.
Trust them when they’ve proven themselves. People who demand immediate and unquestioning trust in the course of an average relationship (excluding emergency type situations with law enforcement, ER personnel, etc.) seem to me to be the ones who often don’t deserve it.
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The last time Ukraine got invaded, it was by the German Wehrmacht.
There are elderly people there who remember, they were little kids when it happened.
I too pray for their deliverance from yet another tyrant.
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OUCH.
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‘at the setting of the sun. . . ‘
a hymn from Kiev, Ukraine (Vydubychi Monastery)
https://youtu.be/uFU3LojPuM4
May God have mercy on these people under attack by Putin.
(My own godmother’s people came from the Ukraine to live in Pennsylvania.)
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A former coworker of mine corrected me once for referring to her country the way I learned in school, as ‘the’ Ukraine. That reduces Ukraine to a place, not a people or a country, she said. This was how Stalin, Hitler, and Putin perceive it – merely a place. It took me years to break the habit.
Her name is Yulia and her family is in my prayers.
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I spent 15 years in a 9marx church, and 3 years on the elder board before I realized just how broken and toxic the culture had become. (I am attending a new church now and I am very hesitant to join).
In evangelical circles, we are taught from birth that we are not to question the wisdom and authority of the pastor and the leaders. They are the super-spiritual anointed ones, after all.
When I was invited to join the elder board, I thought I was joining an elite group (and to be honest that tickled my pride. I repent) As I served, I got the sense that we were the ones doing the heavy lifting and making decisions that the common people would just not understand. We expected the congregation to just go along with whatever decisions we made, and we were surprised when folks actually questioned our decisions. Typically we also viewed those questioners as troublemakers. No surprise there…
So, we place leaders on a pedestal, and culture reinforces that “the leaders are always right” and to question them is sin. When new leaders join this elite group, they are groomed/trained to follow the consensus of the board.
I also found that there are two types of elders – those that question and “make waves” (me) and those that go along and get along (because pride and arrogance and blind loyalty). The former group serve a single term and never return. I saw how the sausage was made and I want no more part of it.
And the result? these boards are accountable only to themselves, further separated from the regular people, and more and more convinced of their own superiority. I think the whole system is irreparably broken.
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Thank you for your sharing your experience. Sadly, what you have described is modus operandi at every New Calvinist church in my area … a very toxic culture indeed.
C.S. Lewis called this the lure of “The Inner Ring.” It is an unhealthy dynamic in the New Calvinist movement in which narcissistic and yes-men elders flourish. I am glad to hear that you escaped the fowler’s snare. I suspect you experienced shunning by church leaders and members when you left.
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Exactly. And trust them when they’ve proven themselves to ‘you’ … do not blindly accept the feelings of others in regard to “Pastor” … there are still folks speaking highly of Driscoll, MacDonald, Hybels, Zacharias, and countless other failed “Christian” leaders.
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Perhaps you have the gift of discernment, gifted by the Holy Spirit for the health of the Body of Christ, the Church? Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
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Not good. Psychologists probably have a term for this. Sounds like a disorder or dangerous or at the very least, toxic. First love bomb then control.
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It took me 5 years to join my last church. And look how that turned out. :-<
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First, thanks for your comment. I believe you and I would get along well. Our experiences sound much the same, though I started questioning things prior to becoming an elder and found myself quickly out of favor with “first among equals.”
> I think the whole system is irreparably broken.
I agree. As I often say, I believe we will someday look back at 9Marx in much the same way we look back at the Shepherding movement of the 1970-1980’s. Both are characterized by heavy-handed authoritarianism and both are/were toxic.
>(I am attending a new church now and I am very hesitant to join).
I understand that feeling. I won’t say never, but I highly doubt I will ever officially “join” a church. Nor will I attend a church with membership contracts.
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And by your testimony, you also realized that the “9 Marks of a Healthy Church” does not include what should be at the top of the list … love. The 9Marx system is unhealthy spiritually, not healthy.
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Praying for Ukraine!
We are still housebound, having gotten only a light ice storm thankfully, but it was followed by inches of sleet, which take quite some time to melt. We live “in a skating rink” right now. Hubby having to figure a new way to get some more firewood into the house, since the usual way is simply to slippery.
Max has hit the nail on the head again.
When I read the title of the post, my first thought was “Why would I even assume a church leader IS a Christian?” It happens.
And I know of one lady in a holiness denomination, a pastor, who declares openly she has “never repented of a single sin since she has never committed one.”
Run!
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Todd Wilhelm,
Todd and Rapid Roy,
Likewise. I have spent more years than I care to admit in such a church. Finally out. Many things precipitated the final leaving but oddly, thanks to Covid, I had a reason to stop attending and had the opportunity to ‘see’ (virtually) what else is out there. It has been refreshing.
. Nor will I attend a church with membership contracts.
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I wholly agree, but love takes so many forms. The description in 1 Corinthians 13 offers a lofty standard.
Instead I’ve seen some churches strive for intense all-encompassing instant best-friendship, which is rarely authentic or sustainable. Few can keep up the intensity or develop genuine affection for everyone who happens to be in the same big room on Sunday morning.
On the other hand, there’s a certain love in the steady determination to welcome everyone, meet them where they are, hear them out, work alongside them, and try to see the world through their eyes.
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Yes … the stuff that agape love is made of. These are elements of the Kingdom of God, not religious kingdoms of men which manipulate, intimidate and dominate others.
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Indeed I did. When I left that church, they all left me. What I thought were deep and meaningful relationships just evaporated. That was probably the most difficult part of my exit.
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Good article this week by Terry Mattingly on Rachael Denhollander:
https://heraldcourier.com/lifestyles/religion/mattingly-behind-the-headlines-rachael-denhollander-advises-churches/article_3c34bf56-96c2-11ec-9f03-f768ffe2175a.html
Sorry for the long address. Couldn’t find it yet on Terry’s site, but was in my paper today.
D.
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Jeffrey Chalmers,
I agree. It’s been my experience that most churches don’t have opportunities for members to voice concerns publicly – oftentimes because of devotion to the leader. A blog like TWW provides a place to do that. Unfortunately, TWW exists “outside” church systems. TWW can do enormous good by informing people of what’s going on and forming communities where people can hear each others’ stories, but I think what every church needs is an official, sanctioned process by which people can meet, share concerns, and work toward solutions.
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Not really. This came up on another blog a few months back. There is more to it. Has to do with plurals, habits, and such.
The United States
The United Kingdom
The USSR
But not The France
and not The Canada
And no one on the blog, some from the area, could explain the roots of “The Ukraine”.
One of those weird English language things that makes no sense.
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In case you aren’t aware, I have found something like this that I can put over my boots quite helpful:
https://www.amazon.com/Ergodyne-6304-Performance-One-Piece-Anti-Slip/dp/B00PK51B80
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New Calvinist churches like that are not authentic Christian communities. That’s not a way to treat a brother in Christ. I’m sure they applied the following Scripture to you and your family to feel better about themselves: “They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us” (1 John 2:19). But, they did have it right didn’t they: you did not belong to them and their sorry excuse for a church; you belonged to Christ. There is freedom in Christ … you are free to come and go as the Spirit leads. 9Marxism won’t allow this because they don’t believe it; it is a controlling religion, an ugly thing to behold.
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Regarding assuming Christian leaders act like Christians, one thing we need to stop doing especially for pastors and other that speak regularly is assuming that the persona this leader projects when speaking is how they really are. Unfortunately, enough of these supposed “Christian” leaders have proven to be just good actors on Sunday.
Also, as Diane Langberg states sadly we equate gifting with character. That too many assume that a person that is gifted in speaking and dissecting the Word of God and can say all the right things has character. One sad example of this Ravi Zacharias.
Another thing is that institutions become notorious for trying to protect themselves and this include “Christian” institutions doing whatever is necessary to protect the institution.
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This is a problem with elder-rule churches. The New Testament model for doing church was congregational governance, where every member had a voice.
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Which leads to gifted characters fleecing the flock! That’s why Scripture challenges us: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4).
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This is easy: the first three are plural aggregates, hence the definite article. ‘The’ prepended to Ukraine was a Soviet thing – my point (and Yulia’s, an actual Ukrainian) is that this is understood to denegrate Ukrainian humanity, reducing them to non-persons. Hitler viewed them the same way. Yulia read me in on this. (And Obama was famously chided for doing it too.) I think in this case there is a particular sensitivity to this emergent nation – much like the colonists once considered themselves English… until they decided they were Americans and were willing to fight and thereby prove it.
🙂
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Yes, as Steve240 mentioned there are several brands of “traction devices” which strap on the bottom of shoes or boots and bite into the ice well. We have Kako IceTrekkers (I think they were bought out); Yaktrax are a common brand. We used ours for hiking in Grand Canyon winter time – not a place you want to slip off the trail! Have seen several patients this month for fractures from falling on the ice, so hope you all are spared!
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I highly recommend them! Been wearing them over my boots for the last 20 years. In fact, I wore them yesterday to negotiate my way to the mailbox over a layer of sleet. They dig into snow and ice with good traction.
linda,
https://www.amazon.com/Yaktrax-Traction-Cleats-Walking-Small/dp/B001CZJIPA/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2GSLQLLUPSXTX&keywords=yaktrax&qid=1645923426&sprefix=yak%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-5
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Hi Dee, sorry I didn’t read this post yet but wondering if you had a previous post about something along the lines of signs you are joining a cult or red flags to watch out for. For example, they ask you sign a church contract, they ask you to sign NDAs before you can join, you stop all contact with friends and family who are not in the same church/group, etc.
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The Ukrainian and Russian languages don’t use definite articles anyway. What matters, though, is letting people choose the names of their homelands, towns, and so on. When Ukraine gained its independence after decades as a Soviet Socialist Republic, it also earned a new right to call things by new names. Kiev became Kyiv. All of the places named after Lenin were changed, along with stuff named after the October Revolution, etc.
And, of course, some of those places had older names, BEFORE they were called Lenin Street and so on. Hmm, who came through in the 1920s and made sure to stamp Soviet and Russian names all over Ukraine? I just wonder… (not).
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curating “select cuts”
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@NC Now
acknowledged there are no hard and fast rules about most of these, except in the case of aggregates the Bahamas, say, or the Azores (in English, anyway) but not Hawaii. To say Russia has no definite article elides the fact that it is a highly inflected language so they don’t need a definite article to render such a distinction. In the German case, grammatical gender creates a default – der Schweitz for Switzerland, as an example.
The thing I find fascinating about Christian communities – and in religion more broadly – is how linguistics is the scaffolding on which foundational teleologies are constructed. A word like ‘inerrancy,’ for example, sets up a dynamic that causes specific effects in one milieu but has no meaning (or invites derision) in another, perhaps one whose taxonomy might include ‘infallibility.’
Yulia’s Ukraine was once ‘the borderland’ and now it’s a place. English has an analog: Wales, foreign, an ancient denigration of a people which is now a place. And we flip the script by referring to its people as ‘the’ Welsh.
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(a couple spellos up there, especially der Schweiz – there is no five minute edit feature on these comments.)
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d4v1d,
In my limited observation you are right about this attitude towards Ukraine. I doubt it has anything to do with the use of the definite article in English, but I could see why that would grate on English-speaking Ukrainian people. My MIL is Russian, straight off the boat as it were. She has fond memories of the USSR and I have heard her and some of her Russian friends opine for years that the USSR “invested” in Ukraine and they stole their infrastructure from Russia when the USSR broke up, and that the Ukrainian people are basically Russian and they are just upstarts who want to pretend their culture and language are unique. (I realize, of course, that these opinions rely on highly selective versions of history. Starting with the fact that the Kyivan Rus were a cultural and military powerhouse in the region for a couple of centuries already before Moscow even existed.) I don’t know how common this line of thought is in Russia, but I suspect very. My husband has been listening to a few Russian-language broadcasts from within the country and he tells me they are painting it as a defensive war (!) to reclaim what rightfully belongs to Russia.
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CMT,
I think that Kyivan Rus element is the teleological nut of it – a powerful foundation myth. The metropolitan of the RO church is completely on board, as Kyiv is their equivalent to Rome or Canterbury (or York for the Northumbrian descendant).
You might find ‘A Prayer for Volodymyr Zelensky’ in the Atlantic revelatory
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/volodymyr-zelensky-ukraine-president/622938/
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Sandra,
Hi, sorry it’s not Dee, but I wanted to point you in a helpful direction. I’ve been a part of a couple high-demand Christian groups (not quite at the level of what I would consider a destructive cult, but nevertheless very damaging), and Dr. Steven Hassan’s work has been helpful to me. Here’s a link to his BITE Model that helps identify characteristics of controlling groups:
https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/BITE-Model-of-Authoritarian-Control-Handout-Oct-2-2020.pdf
Here’s a link to an essay I wrote where I put some of Hassan’s work in my own context. Two of the examples I write about are from a 9Marks, MacArthur-affliated, Neo-Calvinist church:
https://paulkonk.medium.com/bite-marks-e17e9b60ed2c
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… and continued indoctrination, carefully manufacturing “facts” for consumption by the citizenry. It’s sorta like New Calvinism.
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Propaganda: “information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular cause or point of view”
Whoever controls the airwaves controls the message. However, in this case, real time social media reports coming from various sources within Ukraine and Russia paint a totally different picture than the one Russian authorities want their citizenry to see.
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An update on a “Christian” leader who did not act like a Christian:
https://www.ky3.com/2022/02/27/296-million-awarded-victims-ex-kanakuk-kamps-counselor-convicted-sex-crimes/
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500 years ago, wasn’t that one of the Reformers’ big beefs about Catholic Priests/Monks/Nuns, the super-spiritual anointed ones atop the commoner laity?
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The official Russian media’s coverage has been decribed as “1980 Soviet”.
Social Media is the new Samizdvat. The KGB/FSB has been trying to take down Facebook – the main unofficial news/communication link – without success (only slow it a bit).
Yesterday different sources told me that the HBO miniseries Chernobyl was popular in Russia from out-of-country livestreams. And that in the past 10-20 years, smartphone/Social Media saturation among young Russians is almost as widespread as here.
And among Russian soldiers, what they’re doing echoes the WW2 history they were raised in – with a twist. THEY are now in the role of the Fascist Invaders being resisted by the Heroic Partisans. This is apparently having an effect on the 19-yearold draftees from Chelyabinsk or Irktusk. And some of their officers.
(Remember Red Dawn? It was actually a serious parody of a Russian WW2 movie, “Heroic Partisans” sub-type.)
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“Whoever Controls the Past Controls the Future. Whoever Controls the Present Controls the Past.”
— George Orwell, 1984 (based on 1948 Russia transferred to a future England)
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“Why should we assume Christian leaders, pastors, elders, and director boards will act like Christians?”
Indeed. Kristin Kobes Du Mez, in “Jesus & John Wayne” documents a lot of leader, pastor, elder, director board behavior. Facts, never speculation. Reader beware.
Note: Christian sports Camp Kanakuk, main location in Branson, Missouri, had Kanakuk Camp Director Pete Newman for many years under the still very much in control Joe White. Joe White is a nationally known motivational speaker connected with Promise Keepers. Pete Newman violated dozens of boys at Promise Keeper White’s camp (story covered here at TWW).
Apparently, “Promise Keepers” is actually “Pedo Keepers”.
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Overheard many years ago in Artists’ Alley at a Furry Convention:
“KIEV WAS A GREAT CITY WHEN MOSCOW WAS A RING OF MUD HUTS!”
(I thought the artist’s name sounded Ukranian; that confirmed it.)
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“Branson, Missouri – It’s what Las Vegas would be if it was run by Ned Flanders.”
— The Simpsons
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I understand the Russian and Ukranian languages are so closely related they’re right on the border of being dialects of the same language and separate languages.
As a New Yorker would say, “Old Slavonic spoken in two different neighborhoods”.
(Actual original quote “Spanish & Italian are just Latin spoken in two different neighborhoods.”)
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Does that mean the definite/indefinite article is somehow submerged in the form of the noun?
I do know that the last thing a Russian-speaker learns when becoming fluent in English is to include articles (“a”, “an”, or “the”). A standard way to illustrate a Russian accent in print is to drop all articles. (Don’t know if the above holds for other Slavic languages.)
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Max,
Yes. And to be clear when I said “broadcasts from within the country” I meant Russia not Ukraine. That narrative is carefully controlled and as others have mentioned pretty Orwellian. Images of average Ukrainians in puffy coats and rubber boots taking up AK-47’s to defend Kyiv definitely aren’t getting play in that story.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Exactly
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In any case, Spain and Italy respect each other’s sovereignty.
Connection should not translate to domination but apparently there’s a big bad monstrous bully in the ‘hood.
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“The Ukraine” is a part of the Russian Empire (under whatever name). Like the languages of China (many of which are only vaguely related) are “dialects” of the One Imperial Language.
And throughout history, every time there’s an independent Ukraine, sooner or later the Russian Empire (under whatever name) tries to take it back.
Question: in English, wouldn’t the name of a separate Ukraine be more like “Ukrainia”? The “-ia” ending is common in English for the names of lands or countries, like the “-ian” ending for the possessive of same (such as name of people or language).
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“Saint Sophia” (“Holy WIsdom”) seems to be a common name for Eastern-Rite cathedrals.
Is this Saint Sophia Ukranian Catholic or Orthodox?
Most of Ukraine is actually Eastern-Rite CATHOLIC. Centuries ago, a large chunk of the Ukranian church transferred its allegiance from the Patriarch of Constantinople to the Pope in Rome, becoming the Ukranian Catholic church. They still use the Byzantine Liturgy, but they’re Catholic.
Which automatically makes them Heretics to Russian Orthodoxy. Whenever the Russian Empire takes over Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church becomes the official State Church and goes on a Heretic-hunt. (The RO are already The One True Church to begin with.)
And the RO has its own way of doing things:
“Two Romes have fallen;
A third – Moscow – stands —
NEVER SHALL THERE BE A FOURTH!”
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The distinction between “Ukraine” and “the Ukraine” has to do with nuances of English, and nothing at all to do with Russian. The Russian language has no such distinction, calling the place “Ukraina.” There is no “the” with which to sound dismissive. Case endings and sentence structure make things clearer, but don’t contain any equivalent of a, an, or the.
Russia doesn’t need definite articles to dismiss, dehumanize, and invade. Calling Ukrainians by World War II names will reach deep into Russian souls. I will not listen to Putin’s propaganda, but the traditional Russian word for Third Reich adherents is fashisty.
When I spent time in the USSR, that war was constantly kept alive as a memory and looming threat. Every town had a war memorial. I saw young children doing a changing of the guard at a war memorial in Smolensk. At various memorial sites, hidden speakers played Chopin’s death march on an endless loop. Guides kept perfect order. I remember seeing a guide yell at an American who did not understand the instructions, and had his hands in his pockets; this was seen as deliberate disrespect. Old veterans wearing medals rode public transit for free. Popular music was chock full of war references. This was decades after 1945, but the constrained Soviet imagination had not moved on. They kept the trauma alive.
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Thanks to all about traction cleats. Yes, we lived in northern Wyoming, ND, and at elevation in CO and they are essentials. We call them studded snow tires for the feet. But the wood is in an area where we cannot get the tractor or the lawn mower we use to pull the wood cart. When we say we heat with wood we mean we really heat with wood, so we move a LOT of wood in a week. Once it is in the garage that is easy peasy to get into the house. The problem was getting a vehicle of some sort to the wood pile. Yesterday he was able to get the tractor with a bucket on it unfrozen, and do some sleet moving. Today we should be in the 50’s, with 70’s in a few days, so things should melt pretty quickly. But what he did yesterday allowed him to get the little lawnmower with a cart back to the wood pile to move wood to the pickup which can now make it to the garage, lol. So we are good, and actually made it through the worst with one five gallon bucket of firewood in the garage to spare!
For the bird lovers: we have a pair of red headed woodpeckers that feed at our suet block. During the worst of the storm the male apparently dislocated his beak. It was full bore open, unable to close or to eat. That was for two days, and we figured he would be a goner. The third day he could close it half way, would knock suet off the block to the ice, go down, and lay over on his side to scoop up the suet. Yesterday and today he is back to normal and just dandy. Guess the swelling went down and he can function again. The One Who knows if sparrows fall was looking out for Woody.
We have friends in ND with family in Ukraine. Please include them and their families in your prayers. Also we have many of Amish and Mennonite belief in our area who are immigrants from Russia and from Ukraine. Even back at Christmas some were putting huge flags of those countries on their roofs. Please pray peace in our area over this. They are peace churches but younger people with heart hurts are sometimes caught up in stuff. And some of our area natives have been known to shoot at them in their buggies.
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The noun…and also the verbs, adjectives, and modifiers and then there are cases. I can’t speak for all Slavic languages, but if my experience with Polish business client is any indication, the bewildering inflections of their otherwise musical speech may be a widespread linguistic feature on their side of the Carpathians. Is there a ‘Hooked on Slavonics’ website I wonder? There should be.
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Parts of current Ukraine were also in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
The US owes a lot to past turmoil in those two empires. Millions of people fled central and eastern Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They toiled in American factories, mills, and mines, they sold brooms and brushes from pushcarts until they had enough money to open a little store. They scrimped and saved, and made sure their children worked hard and blended in enough to do a little better.
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🙂
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To answer the headline: Unfortunately yes. It would be nice if they could act like Christ.
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In the news: https://www.ky3.com/2022/02/27/296-million-awarded-victims-ex-kanakuk-kamps-counselor-convicted-sex-crimes/
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Don’t know about Flanders, but reading the news & DOJ public records, “Christians” adore the same accoutrements as Vegas attendees.
Major difference, though: “Christians” don’t pay for what they get. They play the Patriarchy card. (Moreover, quite a few minors involved – dont know if that’s true in Vegas.) Then, “Christians” play the Patriarchy card again, to collect, not pay, $$$. Win, win, … for the Patriarchy.
Rule over. Violate innocence. Collect $$$. MO. Reference: Houston Chronicle’s “Abuse of Faith”.
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Max,
Oyvey. Uffda.
Question for the Pedo Keeper/Camp Admin: Was it worth it? From a purely selfish POV, since obviously he doesn’t give a noodle about the young people’s lives that have been destroyed.
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As a linguistics student: yes. And sometimes unsubmerged in English, more often in French etc.
As a side issue, in St Paul “the” women is a poor rendition as specific “those” ones were meant.
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Friend,
It’s good to remember war especially when it was close to home. Surely onlookers can invest / disinvest what baggage they choose, in their own minds.
1 – I’m both a second and third generation immigrant (on the same side), and lately we’ve figured out my mum is last known to have seen the brother she didn’t tell us she had, when she was 16 and he was 12. Some of the political class appear to have had untroubled family history.
2 – We thought freedom of religion at individual level was what everybody believed in.
3 – The last three or four times I heard parsons bragging about what sinners they were, it was the “nearly as totally depraved as thou (well, not nearly)” trope.
4 – On rare occasions when “membership agreements” are admitted to exist (perhaps unbeknownst to some of the congregation) I make sure to ask lots of imaginative, unusual and extracurricular questions, and to stress how terribly unconventional and unorthodox I am. If they then soft pedal, so do I.
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David on Sun Feb 27, 2022 at 12:39 PM said:
“To answer the headline: Unfortunately yes. It would be nice if they could act like Christ.”
++++++++++++
“Christ”
who’s that?
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Very, very true.
i –
– the biggest denomination received prophecy about Russia, but instead of prayerfully planning, it effectively abolished prayer
– why did some church leaders stop their critique of bad commerce?
– was the studied or unstudied indifference of UK or US leaders to member countries of the CIS in its allegedly unplanned initial guise calculated at garnering popularity in US and UK churches, which stood down prayer alertness for the world? (Important question) (Note I am not exonerating the present action by the present leadership of the actual agressor state)
– Engels (a businessman in one of England’s foremost business towns) and Marx openly stated what they called communism (and whitewashed) will be brought in by capitalism
ii –
– Roger Keyes and his father wrote about conditions in Belgium 1914-18 and 1939-45, the French sabotage of the successful naval campaign against Turkey, and French communist propaganda betrayal of Belgium in which Britain concurred
– King Albert I had been hailed as genuine hero and France didn’t want that repeated with his son
– The Kaiser Bill and Bismarck effect lamented by Nietzsche followed the enforced merger * of different Prussian churches (hence Missouri Synod)
{ * }
– Why did Britain spend 400 yrs. undermining first Austria, then Russia, India and China, and not guiding France, Prussia and Turkey into better paths when there was opportunity (as commented on by J H Newman)?
– Does calvinism “smack” too much of Macaulay’s Raj?
– England is now a mere hinterland of the Isle Of Dogs (a Thames loop); our Sir Raffleses of all parties are raffling us off
iii –
– Is it arrogant to tell us ordinary christians not to wish to repent vicariously for past church leaders’ omissions?
– When sexual abuse is the headline or decoy issue in churches, what else is it the cover for?
– should our imploring and beseeching our God for good quality of government be a principle of principle and not ad hominem nor sectarian?
Because of Kaiser Bill, THREE of my grandparents joined the denomination I was born into (for all those three it was their OWN second change of religion so we are bold explorers)
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Dee, No worries on the echurch glitch this week. We’ve been meeting here, fellowshipping, and praying for Ukraine.
Maybe some would like to share Psalms, songs, prayers?
We’re listening to Chris Rice singing, “Come to Jesus.”
https://youtu.be/qGy2VHlj0qY
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As I think about the situation in Ukraine, may this Psalm come into the hearts of the Christians there … and as Wartburgers pray for this conflict to end, for the evil at work there to be defeated.
Psalm 31
1 In you, Lord, I have taken refuge;
let me never be put to shame;
deliver me in your righteousness.
2 Turn your ear to me,
come quickly to my rescue;
be my rock of refuge,
a strong fortress to save me.
3 Since you are my rock and my fortress,
for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
4 Keep me free from the trap that is set for me,
for you are my refuge.
5 Into your hands I commit my spirit;
deliver me, Lord, my faithful God.
6 I hate those who cling to worthless idols;
as for me, I trust in the Lord.
7 I will be glad and rejoice in your love,
for you saw my affliction
and knew the anguish of my soul.
8 You have not given me into the hands of the enemy
but have set my feet in a spacious place.
9 Be merciful to me, Lord, for I am in distress;
my eyes grow weak with sorrow,
my soul and body with grief.
10 My life is consumed by anguish
and my years by groaning;
my strength fails because of my affliction,
and my bones grow weak.
11 Because of all my enemies,
I am the utter contempt of my neighbors
and an object of dread to my closest friends—
those who see me on the street flee from me.
12 I am forgotten as though I were dead;
I have become like broken pottery.
13 For I hear many whispering,
“Terror on every side!”
They conspire against me
and plot to take my life.
14 But I trust in you, Lord;
I say, “You are my God.”
15 My times are in your hands;
deliver me from the hands of my enemies,
from those who pursue me.
16 Let your face shine on your servant;
save me in your unfailing love.
17 Let me not be put to shame, Lord,
for I have cried out to you;
but let the wicked be put to shame
and be silent in the realm of the dead.
18 Let their lying lips be silenced,
for with pride and contempt –
they speak arrogantly against the righteous.
19 How abundant are the good things
that you have stored up for those who fear you,
that you bestow in the sight of all,
on those who take refuge in you.
20 In the shelter of your presence you hide them
from all human intrigues;
you keep them safe in your dwelling
from accusing tongues.
21 Praise be to the Lord,
for he showed me the wonders of his love
when I was in a city under siege.
22 In my alarm I said,
“I am cut off from your sight!”
Yet you heard my cry for mercy
when I called to you for help.
23 Love the Lord, all his faithful people!
The Lord preserves those who are true to him,
but the proud he pays back in full.
24 Be strong and take heart,
all you who hope in the Lord.
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Max,
Thx, Max. I just prayed Ps. 31. God bless you. I appreciate you, sharing this lovely Psalm.
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Ava Aaronson,
“I hear many whispering, “Terror on every side!” … He showed me the wonders of His love when I was in a city under siege …”
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First, I am sorry that your mother was permanently separated from her younger brother. Although I don’t know your family’s circumstances, emigrating can cause terrible hardship and pain.
It is indeed good to remember war. The topic needs to be included in education, family discussion, and public remembrance as well as private memory.
Remembering, though, is truly different from lifelong indoctrination in an authoritarian state. In the Soviet system, people weren’t really supposed to pick and choose their emotional burdens about that war. Russians don’t call it World War II, by the way, but Velikaya Otechestvennaya voyna, Great Patriotic War or Great War of the Fatherland.
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Max,
Amen.
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Ava Aaronson on Sun Feb 27, 2022 at 06:52 PM said:
“Maybe some would like to share Psalms, songs, prayers?”
++++++++++++++++++++
we prayed these at my prayer group:
Psalm 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD;
And He inclined to me,
And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit,
Out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock,
And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the LORD.
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Psalm 40: 13-17
O LORD, make haste to help me!
14 Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion
Who seek to destroy my [a]life;
Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonor
Who wish me evil.
15 Let them be confounded because of their shame,
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!”
16 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let such as love Your salvation say continually,
“The LORD be magnified!”
17 But I am poor and needy;
Yet the LORD thinks upon me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God.
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… can save lives.
The precipitating circumstances can be the worst, however.
Emigrating splits up families at the same time it saves lives. Sometimes difficult decisions are made.
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Isn’t “never repented since never committed” what a psychopath would say? Disclaimer, I’m not a psychologist.
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I’m so sorry. Yes, this is almost worse than the abuse by leadership, is the blind eye by former friends.
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Sandra,
Hi Sandra,
Paul K had a lot of insight in his article.
Kathi at Spiritual Sounding Board did a series on religious power and control that may be helpful: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2021/11/01/religious-power-and-control-economic-control/
Dee also has an older post where she looked specifically at warning signs in membership covenants: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/02/25/membership-covenant-red-flags/
And last (and probably least), here’s my reflections: https://www.whyhavewefasted.org/early-warning-signs-of-an-unhealthy-church/
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Thank you Max and elastigirl for the Psalms.
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Headless, you wrote: “Most of Ukraine is actually Eastern-Rite CATHOLIC. Centuries ago, a large chunk of the Ukranian church transferred its allegiance from the Patriarch of Constantinople to the Pope in Rome, becoming the Ukranian Catholic church. They still use the Byzantine Liturgy, but they’re Catholic.”
yes, my godmother’s ancestors came from this group in Ukraine and settled in Pennsylvania. In Pennsylvania, they attended a Catholic Church that prayed using the Byzantine Liturgy, which is an ancient liturgy.
This is a sad week for me, as my godmother of blessed memory gifted to me an insight into her ‘eastern’ Christian heritage with her humble ways (and her healing ‘samovar’ tea.) 🙂 Her memory is still a blessing to me.
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elastigirl,
This is beautiful. Thx. God bless you, elastigirl. Lifts my soul.
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Thank you to those who contributed Psalms. May I add Psalm 57.
Have mercy on me, my God, have mercy on me,
for in you I take refuge.
I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings
until the disaster has passed.
2I cry out to God Most High,
to God, who vindicates me.
3He sends from heaven and saves me,
rebuking those who hotly pursue me— c
God sends forth his love and his faithfulness.
4I am in the midst of lions;
I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts—
men whose teeth are spears and arrows,
whose tongues are sharp swords.
5Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth.
6They spread a net for my feet—
I was bowed down in distress.
They dug a pit in my path—
but they have fallen into it themselves.
7My heart, O God, is steadfast,
my heart is steadfast;
I will sing and make music.
8Awake, my soul!
Awake, harp and lyre!
I will awaken the dawn.
9I will praise you, Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
10For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
11Be exalted, O God, above the heavens;
let your glory be over all the earth.
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Wild Honey,
Nice blog.
“The membership agreement was one-sided.”
IOW, you stay in line while I stay in control.
Patriarchy operates the same way.
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Ava Aaronson,
I agree, and people aren’t always even in a position to make the hard choice to emigrate. They might be fleeing, forced out, kidnapped, or too young to know what’s going on. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, a family sailing from Europe to America spent about ten days in steerage, and then had to undergo a medical inspection in port. If, say, a child had an illness, an adult had to accompany the child back to the old country. Excruciating.
I’m not sure how many well-heeled people choose a different country because it has nice weather or a better business climate. It’s probably a tiny percentage.
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Wild Honey,
I really liked your post!
Here’s another red flag I was thinking about: an unhealthy church makes second-, third-, and fourth-rank doctrines first-rank doctrines (those essential to the gospel).
This can be hard to spot, but if a church has an attitude that their particular form of government (second-rank), position on women in leadership (third-rank), or worship style (fourth-rank) is the only legitimate position for a Christian to have, avoid this church. Sometimes it takes a while to figure this out.
I’m not saying that churches can’t have convictions regarding lower-ranked doctrines – every healthy church does and makes clear to prospective members where they fall on important issues. Healthy churches recognize Christians can disagree on non-essential doctrines and still fellowship with one another without suspicion.
This is where some of the Neo-Calvinists of the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement tend toward unhealthiness, IMO. They proclaim Calvinist soteriology (third-rank doctrine) like it’s the gospel. It’s not. It’s just a particular view of soteriology.
The idea of rank comes from “Finding the Right Hills to Die On” by Gavin Ortlund.
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I heard a prominent televangelist, when asked if he ever repented of sin, proclaim in an angry voice “Repent of what?!!” as he stepped toward his private jet on the way back to his mansion after fleecing the flock.
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Great article, Paul!
Your words “Eventually I left IHOP-KC, disillusioned, confused, and angry” are common emotions expressed by those who come to the realization that they have been ensnared by a religious cult. Tens of thousands (perhaps more) are experiencing that today as they come to grips with the aberrations of New Calvinist belief and practice. Many may never attempt church again … whose plan would that be?
Your analogy of getting a bad case of poison ivy while walking through the woods to enjoy nature, to experiencing the good things of doing church (relationships with others) while being unaware of being in a cult, paints a vivid picture. The sting is comparable once you realize what you have done.
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But a lot of younger Russians are plugged into Social Media from outside, where that IS getting play.
And it also echoes an aspect of the Great Patriotic War in Russian culture:
The Heroic Partisans against the Fascist Invaders.
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Is this an argument against membership covenants or against trusting church leadership? While what you said about individuals here is valid given the very public evidence of their failures the article as a whole seems to implicitly call into question church leadership as a whole. It makes no attempt to hold up ideal church leaders which I would think would be equally valuable. It’s good to know what to look for in terms of red flags but there is no discussion of what to look for in terms of positive experiment.
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Yes, same messaging now, with the new twist that Ukraine has a popularly elected Jewish president, whose grandfather fought in the Red Army and did authentic denazification.
Since the Russian language has been a topic, here’s an example. “U menia kniga” literally translates as “By me book.” It lacks both a present-tense verb of being (“By me [is] book”), and an article. It means either “I have a book” or “I have the book.”
If you add the optional verb of being, the sentence changes to “U menia est’ kniga,” and becomes emphatic: “I do have a book” or “I do have the book.” The “a” or “the” is understood through vocal intonation and/or context.
Thus endeth the lesson. 😉
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I understand what you mean, but the people conducting experiments are the New Calvinists, networks of child abusers, and other bad actors.
The outlines of a worship community are found in the Bible. From there, all one needs to do is safeguard the members and serve others. A tall order, but the functional church protects children, widows, orphans, prisoners, the hungry, the poor, wounded travelers…
I don’t know where you live. Plenty of Wartburgers are in areas without healthy churches. Congregations show their colors online. If they serve the community in ways that go beyond gestures (opening their doors to AA and scout groups, staffing a homeless shelter, helping non-members), that’s a good sign. If their sermons offer hope and encouragement, instead of just ranting against Sssinnnnnn and “those people,” that’s another good sign.
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From my long experience reading TWW articles, the premise has always been to be cautious about joining churches where authoritarian church leaders demand that you sign a membership agreement as a condition for joining the church … when the NT model of doing church does not. The only covenant that a believer needs to enter into is the one written in red by Christ.
The current emphasis within New Calvinism for membership agreements has been demonstrated to create a mechanism for disciplining, shunning and excommunication of members who may oppose a teaching or behavior of a leader. The 9 Marks system has proven to be an exercise of manipulation, intimidation, and domination of pulpit over pew by countless testimonies given on this site over the years. TWW has been faithful to inform and warn the Body of Christ, with a simple challenge to carefully examine ‘any’ church requiring membership contracts before you know if you can trust its leaders.
All church leaders have not been tossed into this bucket by TWW. There are faithful servants of the Lord who understand that they are to serve the Body of Christ, not lord over it … leaders who know they are but one member of the Body and that every believer has a part in the ministry of a church as both pulpit and pew work together to fulfill the Great Commission.
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Jeremy,
Since churches tend to guard their church discipline procedures, it is difficult to know when to trust pastors. Churches give absolutely no parameters. for the extent of their discipline so conceivably anything could be disciplined ranging from pride to not supporting the pastor’s vision casting to disagreeing with the church budget. That is why I do not recommend that anyone sign a church covenant since it is a legal contract allowing free reign for the church unless they kill someone.
So, I would not join a church that required such a signed document.
I’m going to say something that you might find difficult. I have only seen one church handle church discipline correctly but you would not be excited since they did not announce what was going on. The theodudes love to send out letters and make announcements that they are disciplining Fred because he left the church and didn’t find a new, approved™ church immediately. Ask Todd who writes here about his experience.
It may be difficult to believe but I do not have any way to show you how to trust a pastor except by careful investigation. You must rely on your own good sense as you go about this process. In my case, it worked and I love my church and pastors.
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dee,
Thank you, Dee.
I’ve told this story before, but maybe today it bears repeating. One time I asked our pastor what I would have to do to be disciplined by the church. He looked totally (and wonderfully) baffled, and said, “I can’t imagine anything you would do for that to happen.”
His answer was not about me alone. Our church just doesn’t have customs or rules for keeping members in line.
People who don’t go to church magically live without lion tamers coming at them with a whip and a chair. Did church rules ever truly prevent, say, adultery or alcoholism? I don’t think so. Principles of fidelity and sobriety—right there in the Bible—help to strengthen people from within, from the conscience, from empathy, from a desire not to cause suffering in oneself or others. Church discipline is 99% about control and 1% about repentance and growth, in my humble view.
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Friend on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 12:12 PM said:
“People who don’t go to church magically live without lion tamers coming at them with a whip and a chair.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
indeed. indeedy-doo-dah (to say it with style)
I’ve long observed that people in my life (family, friends) who do not go to church, let alone sport the christian label, have the highest personal standards of integrity.
They are agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist and they are honest, kind, generous, at personal cost.
I’ve pondered this while sitting through countless church services. It gave me a very uneasy, troubled feeling. “Why am I here? What’s this all about, then?”
Now I just celebrate integrity, honesty, kindness, and generosity wherever they are found, the magnificence of human beings, and the magnificence of God their creator.
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Friend,
Friend, that is a beautiful and fully biblical view. Many thanks!
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dee,
Why would I find that difficult? I think what you do here is invaluable I’m offering my thoughts that the title was about leadership but the first emphasis of the post was about membership covenants. Your position on this is abundantly clear. I think there is value in saying here is what to be wary of balanced with here is what to look for and I did not see that in the post.
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It may be difficult to believe but I do not have any way to show you how to trust a pastor except by careful investigation. You must rely on your own good sense as you go about this process. In my case, it worked and I love my church and pastors.
You consistently use your own experience or Todd Wilhelm’s as example of bad practices do you not have ANY experience with good practices to share?
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Max,
The lure of the “inner ring” is not limited to neo-Calvinists. You do understand that don’t you? The lure of the inner ring is universal.
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Not to mention that the Church of the Living God is a free church … membership is voluntary. A believer is free in Christ to move as the Spirit leads. When the Spirit moves, a believer doesn’t need to feel bound by a contract to stay. Employee contracts and non-disclosure agreements are the things of the world, not the Kingdom of God.
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New Calvinism, and its bad brother 9Marks, love to put theo-dissenters on display because they don’t love them as they ought. They like to send a message to others under their bondage that they better walk straight, follow the leader, and never question them. I’m convinced that these bad boys would go further than shaming, shunning and excommunicating members if the culture allowed it. Calvin orchestrated torture, imprisonment and execution of those opposed to creating a “Christian” utopia in Geneva, and the spirit of Calvin is still alive within the New Calvinist movement.
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Max,
I always go back to two men “on the cross” next to Christ…. How can any church leader demand any other specific actions from pew peons when Christ promises “a place in paradise” for the one man (Luke 23:39-43)…. Also note, the other man is called a blasphemer…. a pretty harsh title in the NT..
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Indeed! In my 70+ years of doing church in America, I’ve seen the inner ring game played in various expressions of faith. But the best current manifestation of that, IMO, is within New Calvinist ranks with a “lead” pastor in his 20s-30s and his band of young “elders” in their 20s-30s vying to sit at the right hand of the man. There are several SBC church plants in my area where that dynamic is playing out. Ministering to the congregation gets lost in the quest to be first in the inner ring.
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Max,
My “favorite” is the line “you just don’t understand”, and they have a smug look, when you are trying to understand the fundamental contradictions on “hard core Calvanism”…
Now, I am first to admit that the Bible has many apparent contradictions, just like our scientific understand of the physical world has contractions… but I do NOT have a smug look that I “understand them”..
And yes, most “professions” seem to have an “inner ring” that many, but not all, leaders try to cultivate…
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Good point about “select cuts.” A lot of “Christian” leaders pick the passages of scripture that support what they want to teach vs. the whole bible where there are other passages that might balance what a leader claims and is wanting to emphasize. One example of this would be leaders teaching on their submission to their claimed “authority.”
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And they can get away with that because the average pewsitter does not read his Bible as he ought … thus, he is unable to test if what Pastor is saying is true or not.
The Berean Christians were commended because “they searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.” Most congregations now are so trusting of the pulpit that they accept every word coming from it as truth. Folks, these are days where you need to be disciplined in prayer and personal Bible study to sort out the genuine from the counterfeit. The enemy is in the camp.
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OK maybe somebody can help me out here. I know de you are a very very busy woman with posting here and I know you have helpers. I’m finding some very interesting stuff on prominent pastors from Grace community Church who are preaching on some very crazy things that you may or may not know about. So I wanted to get in touch with you to direct you towards the pastors on websites with their sermons where they are preaching and saying crazy stuff! For example Rick Holland apparently the problem with church membership and keeping people is cars!!! Yes you are reading this right act that we have cars is the big problem about fell out of my chair laughing. Anyways D email me or text me so I can direct you to where he is saying stuff like this it may or may not be of interest to the church but I think it’s not only hysterical comical But it’s also scary because it’s all part of the air conditioning the church to believe this crap
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Friend,
Thanks, Friend. I appreciate the comments.
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Well, he’s right sorta … because when it comes to preaching like that, smart church members get in their cars and drive somewhere else!
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What they are really saying is they have doubts about what they think they know and want you to shut up and not challenge them anymore. Hard core Calvinism drives everyone loony tune after a while … they get as confused as a termite in a yo-yo. My personal experience with Christ is not open to the debate of others.
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My Dungeonmaster once said “The reason the Bible contains so many apparent contradictions is so when someone grabs a verse and runs off on a tangent with it, you can throw another verse in front of him to trip him up before he gets too far.”
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Jeremy,
You are most welcome. The topic of finding a good church is hard in this group, because many of us have survived abuse, going (back) to church is optional, and there’s no 100% guarantee of safety.
Even if a church seems wholesome and productive in the community, folks might recoil at things like having only men as pastors, or the opposite thing, allowing women to be pastors.
Many of us also grew up in churches that told wild, disparaging stories about all the other churches. Through older relatives in the Temperance movement, I heard all about the churches full of drunks. Boy howdy, did I feel nervous when I stepped through the doors of one of THOSE. And yet that church was refreshingly dull.
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FreshGrace,
Thank you. God bless.
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I think you have a point. It’s not enough to recognize sickness; one has to recognize health.
I think there’s a wide variety of health while all the sickness looks very similar (authoritarian control).
In terms of governance, health reveals itself in accountability. Are leaders appointed by a higher authority (not God), regularly evaluated by this authority, and rewarded or disciplined accordingly?
In terms of doctrine, are historical gospel essentials in place? After that, is the church clear where they stand on lower-ranked doctrine? Does the church make this clear to congregants?
I think accountability and transparency, on paper and in practice, is a necessary foundation.
“A Church Called Tov” by Scot McKnight is a great resource for describing a healthy church.
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Ava Aaronson,
Pretty much.
And thank you!
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Yes, I agree.
My best church experience, hands down by far, was a ministry sponsored by a Presbyterian church (and the elders/overseers of the ministry were Presbyterian), led by an Evangelical pastor, with an Anglican and Lutheran worship team. (A Catholic lady later joined, too.) Because options were kinda limited if you weren’t a native speaker (this is while I was living abroad as an ex-pat), it forced us to prioritize what we had in common.
But I think I’d be cautious about putting theology-related things on a list to people looking to get out of a cult, because that can automatically put them on the defense and less willing to listen to what else you’ve got to say, if it’s something they’ve been attacked for, before. One step at a time.
Just speaking as an egalitarian married to a complementarian (who is still firmly in the complementarian camp, but whose views have softened considerably over the years more because of the “fruit” he’s witnessed in the complementarian churches we’ve attended than by any “logic” I’ve attempted).
Not that I’m saying complementarian = cult. After all, Bill Hybels was egalitarian (on paper). But that IS something else all three unhealthy churches we’ve attended had in common. Just saying.
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You’re right, this is also helpful to flesh out.
I’d think about what I’d want to look for in a good employer. And tease out from there what qualities would also make a good leader in the context of a church.
The supervisors I’ve respected the most had high expectations for the quality of my work, but also reasonable expectations that respected I sometimes made mistakes and had a life outside of the workplace. Didn’t ask me to do anything they weren’t themselves willing to do. Were always willing to explain processes or decisions when I asked questions with an attitude of genuine curiosity, and didn’t get defensive when explaining things. (I was raised by a teacher and went on to work in education; asking “why” is second nature.) Treated me with dignity and respect. Didn’t question my character when I pointed out problems, but instead asked for suggested solutions. Didn’t necessarily follow my suggestions, but at least always listened.
The ones I REALLY respected were also the ones who didn’t shirk from tackling problems, and didn’t try to sweep them under the rug. Those were the ones I was willing to go above and beyond, for, instead of just the bare minimum to get by.
I worked as office staff in an academic department. Low person on the totem pole. The good deans were the ones who also expected the faculty to treat the office (and custodial/maintenance, etc.) staff with courtesy and professionalism, and didn’t recognize a “hierarchy” in that sense.
There’ve been plenty of bad supervisors, too (three of my former workplaces have been involved in class-action lawsuits), but this is just about the good ones.
Is this helpful?
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Friend: Europe
Very, very true.
i –
– the biggest denomination received prophecy about Russia, but instead of prayerfully planning, it effectively abolished prayer
– why did some church leaders stop their critique of bad commerce?
– was the studied or unstudied indifference of UK or US leaders to capitalist interference – given that capitalism sometimes poses as anticommunist – calculated at garnering political popularity for themselves in US and UK churches, which stood down prayer alertness for the world? (Important question)
– Engels (a businessman in one of England’s foremost business towns) and Marx openly stated what they called communism (and whitewashed) will be brought in by capitalism
ii –
– Roger Keyes and his father wrote about conditions in Belgium 1914-18 and 1939-45, the French sabotage of the successful naval campaign against Turkey, and French communist propaganda betrayal of Belgium in which Britain concurred
– King Albert I had been hailed as genuine hero and France didn’t want that repeated with his son
– The Kaiser Bill and Bismarck effect lamented by Nietzsche followed the enforced merger * of different Prussian churches (hence Missouri Synod)
{ * trigger warning }
– Why did Britain spend 400 years undermining Austria, and not guiding France, Prussia and Turkey into better paths when there was opportunity (as commented on by J H Newman)?
– Does calvinism “smack” too much of Macaulay’s Raj?
– England is now a mere hinterland of the Isle Of Dogs (a Thames loop); our Sir Raffleses of all parties are raffling us off
iii –
– Is it arrogant of prominent “christian” personalities to tell us ordinary christians not to wish to repent vicariously for past church leaders’ omissions?
– When sexual abuse is the headline or decoy issue in churches and “ministries”, what else is it the cover for?
– should our imploring and beseeching our God for just quality of government be a principle of principle and not ad hominem nor sectarian?
Because of Kaiser Bill, THREE of my grandparents joined the denomination I was born into (for all those three it was their OWN second change of religion)
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Basically show up, open your wallet and shut your mouth = church discipline protocols.
CSA? The leadership is blind. Sees nothing, says nothing, does nothing.
Keep the money rolling in and the facade of success.
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Promote women to the top (Hybels called this his A-list) so he could have at them. His personal A-list harem.
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Bill Hybels was whatever his followers wanted him to be. He built a Christianity Lite empire by asking folks which way they wanted to go, and then he got out in front to lead. Christendom didn’t know who the real Bill Hybels was until the end of his ministry.
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See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil … and you can join the inner ring.
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Considering the condition of the American church in many places, it would be prudent to move up asking “why” to first nature!
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Exactly. False teaching/theology always contains a wrong view of God, man, sin and salvation. Take New Calvinism, as an example … the authority of Jesus in the affairs of the church is non-existent … the Son of God has been diminished in His influence over the pulpit & pew … in sermons, it’s all about “God” – Jesus’ name is barely mentioned, the Holy Spirit relegated to the back pew … women have been reduced to mere derivatives of men, with restricted roles in the Body of Christ … families are in authoritarian bondage to an ungodly patriarchal system … there is an un-Biblical and unhealthy separation of clergy and laity … the precious Gospel message is not extended to ALL people of every tribe, tongue and nation … whosoever will may not come … etc. It’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel.
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An underlying reason why there are now 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide. Which one has a corner on Truth?
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Wild Honey,
Wild Honey,
That’s a great explanation of how to view leadership. And in looking back over my career (just recently retired), I can see how that played out with various managers, supervisors, those who put the work in right alongside the employees. And then there were the middle and upper management who just dictated policy. Does indeed sound like some church structures. I’ll go with the leaders with the towel and basin approach.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
That is hilarious. And true.
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To multiple people, I appreciate your time and your comments. The analogy about business leadership and expectations are specifically helpful because most of us can relate to either the positive or negative side of that.
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Here is a musical treat for you:
https://youtu.be/Nlz_3HLpTGc
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Ken F (aka Tweed) on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 08:44 PM said:
“Here is a musical treat for you:”
+++++++++++++
that was pretty good!
love the yarn hair
sobering imagery at the end
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Did you read the artist’s description of the song? It’s weighty.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 09:38 PM said:
“Did you read the artist’s description of the song? It’s weighty.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i just did. yes, weighty, indeed. i thought this was poignant:
“It is better to enter into Life with a little uncertainty, than to let the false certainty of horrific doctrines drive you into the ground.”
in my own words, ‘it’s better to err on the side of love and kindness than on the side of unkindness and cruelty.’
(i’m staggered that this doesn’t occur to so many of my faith fellows)
and to be clear, unkindness and cruelty according to the experience of any normal human being.
(sigh…. i have to say this because of christian culture’s proclivity to redefine so many words and concepts so they fit in with numerous theologies of bullsh|t)
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I recently joined the Soteriology 101 FB group because I kept seeing references to it. I thought it might be a good source of info. It has been helpful in some ways, but the amount of uncharitable arguments is disturbing. It makes me think of HUG’s phrase, “it’s just like _______, but Christian.” Christian Arguments. Christian Cruelty. Christian Insults. Christian Depravity. Etc. One of the commenters there suggested I join the Mere Molinism FB group to better understand Molinism. I did, but un-joined after about a week because it is dominated by dry, cold, lifeless theological debates. Very depressing, and detrimental to my emotional and spiritual health.
So it turns out that not only do I not understand Calvinism, I also don’t understand Molinism. What I do understand is both are loveless. I suppose my experience with those sites tells me I need to focus more on love than on being correct. Duh! Obvious in hindsight.
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I personally would not join a church that requires a membership contract. I cant recall any of the major denominations like the UMC or Anglicans or Roman Catholics doing this within my lifetime – and it distresses me that the SBC has local churches that do this.
On another note, in several of the traditional liturgical churches including the Greek Orthodox and some Eastern Catholics, the priest
Acknowledges he is a sinner and
asks the congregation for forgiveness or prayers on his behalf. There are similar prayers (the Asperges Mea and Orate Fratus) in the traditional Latin mass, and in the general confession in Anglican morning prayer and choral evensong. I really like this as it impresses a shared humility into the entire assembled faithful. I don’t think a Christian pastor who does not publicly admit he is a sinner is properly serving the Christian faithful.
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“Love” is never used as a descriptor for aberrant theologies. They fail Jesus’ test: “Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are My disciples” (John 13:35).
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
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Ken F: may I suggest just about anything by David Bentley Hart? He can be dry and dull at times also, but I think you might find him very interesting! For starters he does not see God as angry and vengeful, but rather as all good and all loving.
I would also recommend “In the Hands of a Happy God” and “Here I am Again Lord, stories of an old time Primitive Baptist Universalist preacher.” Neither are dry and dull.
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Ken F: also, while I disagree with him wildly on many points, I think you might enjoy the writings of Thomas Jay Oord.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 06:37 AM said:
“…but un-joined after about a week because it is dominated by dry, cold, lifeless theological debates. Very depressing, and detrimental to my emotional and spiritual health.”
++++++++++++++++
well, the way i see it, how can any of us go wrong with a theology reduced down to kindness, honesty, and relishing the sunset each night?
is God really going to say, “Sorry, but you didn’t check box 14 code A on form 862”?
…as if faith and spirituality are akin to filing a tax return.
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Unfortunately that leads stright to the question, “Well then why do you need Jesus?” The Hell card must always be played; you can’t just rely on Jesus’ love.
Setting aside the threats of eternal torment, there is a distinct ancient faith called Christianity, with Jesus, Scripture, and some pretty amazing forms of worship.
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Same. Did you read the artist’s comments/description?
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linda,
Thank you for the recommendations.
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Exactly. Apparently, separating sheep from goats does not take much skill because it’s pretty obvious which is which.
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Sums it up.
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Yessiree, Bob.
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And in doing so, you arrest moral development at the toddler level:
AVOID PUNISHMENT.
I can attest that once you’ve been catechized with God as Cosmic Punisher, you will never be free of it.
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Unless you use a Screwtape redefinition of “Love”.
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Like I just said, Screwtape redefinitions of words into their “diabolical meanings”.
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Friend on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 07:42 PM said:
“Unfortunately that leads stright to the question, “Well then why do you need Jesus?” The Hell card must always be played; you can’t just rely on Jesus’ love.
Setting aside the threats of eternal torment, there is a distinct ancient faith called Christianity, with Jesus, Scripture, and some pretty amazing forms of worship.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do I need Jesus? (it may have been a rhetorical question)
but it was thought-provoking all the same.
I find this idea so bewildering… Jesus is invisible. I appreciate the idea and concept of Jesus. And I believe in the existence and practical help that has to do with Jesus.
But…. how to gauge a need for something/someone invisible?
Seems to me this ancient faith you mention called Christianity is about a mystery of great goodness and love, and not about systems of things one is obligated to feel and do.
…and i didn’t express my thoughts as well as i wanted to, here.
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Everyone will have a different answer. The starting point, though, is ample: the red-letter words in the Gospels. The Sermon on the Mount offers enough challenge for a lifetime.
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For me, Jesus of Nazareth is alive and well with a real physical, flesh and blood human body. Just not here in this time and space domain we call reality. He’s someplace else, in another reality just as real. I also believe that if I were to receive a blood transfusion from him right now, my genome would start to repair itself and my date with death would start to erase, kinda sorta’ like the bad stuff erased for Marty McFly and Doc Brown.
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“Just not here in this time and space domain we call reality. He’s someplace else, in another reality just as real.”
++++++++++++++
that’s how i see it, too.
in fact this morning at my prayer group i asked him to go to the Ukraine/Russia boundary in his physical body and do that Gandolph thing where he jams his staff into the ground, and without skipping a beat but with all manner of raging cosmic fury he bellows “YOU SHALL NOT PASS!”
(no need for 2 exclamation points)
(i mean, i do, sometimes 3 or 4 — but neither Gandolph nor Jesus need more than 1)
I think Jesus is where my mom and my grandparents and other dear loved ones are. A different dimension, but very close by.
I just don’t feel lovey dovey feelings at all. I refuse to try to generate them. it’s more a matter-of-fact practical thing that I sincerely appreciate. i really dislike it when my faith fellows imply i’m doing it wrong.
actually, i think i’m one of the few honest ones.
too worn out to get caught up in any more christian shenanigan pressures.
such a blessed relief to be true to myself and my own integrity. sleep has never been better.