“You are not the darkness you endured. You are the light that refused to surrender.” ―
What is meant by a third-party, independent investigation?
Maybe I’m a bit naive. I was first introduced to the idea of a third-party, independent investigation shortly after Boz Tchividjian founded GRACE in 2004. After watching a former church perform a non-independent, really friendly with the pastors, kind of investigation, I knew something was terribly wrong. I had been a member of this church in which the head pastor told me that his elders had disagreed with him only two times in 28 years. So why was an elder helping with the investigation since they almost always agreed with the church leadership? I had little hope that a non-influential member’s report would be taken seriously. I believe that I was right. Such an investigation was a slam dunk for the pastors. I knew that there had to be something far better than what I experienced.
What does the term “third-party” mean? According to the Legal Dictionary:
A generic legal term for any individual who does not have a direct connection with a legal transaction but who might be affected by it.
What does the term *independent” mean? The Legal Dictionary states:
2. Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others; self-reliant: an independent mind.
3. Not determined or influenced by someone or something else; not contingent: a decision independent of the outcomeof the study.
So, continuing to use my former church as an example, the investigation team was made up of 4 folks, 3 of whom were members of the church. The 4th seemed not to be involved but let’s ignore that for the moment. They were heavily influenced by their pastors in the church which is to be expected. However, such a relationship should not be expected of those who are attempting an honest investigation.
Who are the ones who have been forgotten in the past?
Internal investigations often forget about the least of these. They live to protect the powerful and wealthy. The victim is usually powerless and is also dealing with the pain and suffering which has been afflicted upon them by the abuser and by the powerful church leaders who want to cover up the problem. Many would say it was to *protect the church.* But, in my opinion, it was usually to protect the leaders who have messed up.
On GRACE’s page, they describe their mission as:
The Heart of God for Children and the Vulnerable
That organization also says this about their values:
Jesus repeatedly spoke up on behalf of the weak, marginalized, and wounded.
In other words, they lookout for the little guys in these investigations while seeking the truth.
SBC and Guidepost Solutions.
I was encouraged when Rachel Denhollader endorsed this group to look into the Lorrits situation. However, when Lorrits was totally exonerated by the process, I was concerned. I had written about Lorrits in 2016. I was shocked when Greear hired him to be a pastor at The Summit. I couldn’t understand how this could have happened. Why did Guideposts exonerate The Summit and Loritts?
Julie Roys wrote a post that may answer my question. Red Flags Surface About Firm Hired to Investigate SBC’s Handling of Abuse. As usual, Roys has facts and questions as does Wade Mullen.
The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is taking bold new steps to address its alleged mishandling of abuse, and yesterday voted to set up a task force to deal with the issue. At the same time, a leading abuse advocate is raising serious concerns about the firm the SBC Executive Committee has hired to investigate abuse issues—Guidepost Solutions.
In a series of recent tweets, author and seminary professor, Wade Mullen revealed several instances where Guidepost Solutions has not represented the best interests of victims, but instead has protected powerful clients. And as Mullen warned, if an investigation isn’t conducted properly, the result can be worse than the initial situation.
Is Guideposts really an organization that seeks to protect their clients who pay their not insignificant charges?
Let’s take a look at some of the concerns that Wade Mullenriased on Twitter.
Dee is somewhat dumbfounded! I followed the Strauss-Kahn case and was disturbed that he was not convicted of molesting the housemaid of the hotel. I had no idea that the above investigations were run by a group that would be called in to do independent, third-party investigations in the SBC or The Summit.
Delicate Matters is their thing!
Read Guidepost’s Delicate Matters page.
Prince: What services does your company provide for the wealthy?
O’Connell: Our private client protection program offers comprehensive investigation, security, risk mitigation and crisis management solutions tailored to the needs of high-net-worth and high-profile individuals and family offices.
We work on a lot of different concerns. For example, a serious trend we’re seeing are cases involving extortionate threats and demands against high-profile and high-net-worth executives, celebrities, athletes, entertainers and politicians. Basically, these people are money targets. Each of these cases is very sensitive and complex in nature, requiring the utmost in precision and discretion.
…Prince: Can you go into a little more detail?
O’Connell: Often, we’re hired by the attorneys or other advisors of those being extorted with matters ranging from inappropriate relationships to allegations of abuse to undesirable photos held as ransom. When we meet with these clients, they’re already in crisis mode and they just want their problem to go away.
We troubleshoot the issue and provide the best options based on the evidence we gather and the information revealed during our investigations. Because we’re former federal and state prosecutors and law enforcement officials, we have vast domestic and international resources. We know if and when to get law enforcement involved.
It’s lawful and ethical to purchase documents, photographs and recordings, and oftentimes clients don’t want to involve law enforcement. They just want the problem to go away. We’re very good at making the problems go away with the least amount of repercussions for the client.
Wait a minute….this is who is investigating sex abuse allegations in the SBC? Is the SBC one of its wealthy clients? Was The Summit Church one of their wealthy clients? This is the group that investigated ARod’s indiscretions as well? Harvey Weinstein has been associated with them. them?
Then again, there is that *birds of a feather *quote. What in the world is going on?
Take the Bryan Lorrits’ Guidepost exoneration.
Here is what Julie Roys had to say.
Loritts first claimed he gave the phone to elders at his church, Fellowship Memphis. But he later changed his story and said he gave the phone to a Fellowship Memphis pastor. That pastor, Bill Garner, refused to participate in Guidepost’s investigation and no one has taken responsibility for the missing phone.
In addition, a victim of Loritts’ brother-in-law and Greg Selby, a former insider at Fellowship Memphis, told Guidepost that Loritts and other pastors engaged in a cover-up.
Yet in its report, Guidepost Solutions effectively exonerated Loritts, stating, “Through our interviews, reviews of documents and reviews of communications, we found no convincing evidence that Loritts was involved in a cover up.”
Julie talked with those who said that this exoneration was a foregone conclusion.
When Guidepost’s report published, Selby told The Roys Report that he believed Guidepost found only what they were looking for.
They had a very narrow scope of what they were interested in,” Selby said of the investigators he spoke with. “I don’t think they were trying.”
There was no mention of the infamous cell phone which had pictures on it which *disappeared.” Lorrits just doesn’t know what happened and few people except for Roys, Mullen, and myself seem to care.
RZIM and Guideposts
Well so far, we’ve heard nothing.
I wonder if RZIM is one of those wealthy clients that has some *Delicate Matters?”
I’m left with questions.
- Why is Rachel Denhollander recommending Guideposts as opposed to GRACE?
- Is this group, which is highly skilled in dealing with wealthy clients who have delicate matters, a good fit for investigating how the SBC handled sex abuse?
- I have grave concerns for the welfare of the victim in these investigations. I would like to see Guideposts post about their care of the abused and let down.
- I think I’m missing something here. Why????
I think Boz is getting onto something here.
Sounds like a good idea. I would also add that it might be good to listen to the victims of Rick Trotter, brother-in-law of Bryan Loritts, to see if they’re doing well.
Guidepost Solutions . . . the ultimate clean-up crew.
I fear for the victims if SBC abusers.
next week i’m going to a place with very dark nights — not Namibia, but far away from light pollution — going out Milky Way hunting. wish me luck!
What do the terms “powerful and wealthy” mean? As in follow the money.
What is meant by “relationship”, as well as “really friendly with” and “heavily influenced by”? IOW, connections, mutual interests, conflict of interest, lack of impartiality. Bias, prejudice, predilection, proclivity, inclination, and so on.
Lots of ways to see what’s wrong here. Are churches, and the lawyers or professionals who serve them, really this ignorant, or are they cons? Like everyone else lacks intelligence and can’t figure this out?
It’s really not difficult to see what the problem is. Even cops will recuse themselves from an investigation if they have any connection to the parties involved. This is not rocket science. It may be snake oil. There’s money involved, also people with titles that are public figures to some degree. (Which, BTW, is exactly why some in LE want to do the right thing, as opposed to these clowns.)
God bless! Sounds like a trip! Lovely. Get out and see stuff. Cool stuff. Lucky you! Have fun.
GS says: “When we meet with these clients, they’re already in crisis mode and they just want their problem to go away…….. We’re very good at making the problems go away with the least amount of repercussions for the client.”
Yup. That sounds like just what the SBC needs to clear it’s “good” name!
What??? You’re coming to my house??? : )
I’d like to go out some place where it’s cool and has clear skies. We definitely do not have the cool (it was 118 here today) and the skies are less hazy than earlier in the week but still not completely clear due to the fires.
As for Guidepost, I had *no idea* they had their fingers in so many pies. This is not giving me warm and fuzzy feelings.
With much respect for Rachel Denhollander, as the situation with the Ortberg family last year showed, even the strongest of us has a weak spot.
I, too, was wondering what was going on when I heard endorsements for Guideposts. I agree with Boz about listening to survivors who have experience with investigators. If they feel supported and defended, we know we are on the right track. If church leaders/groups are tooting the horn of specific investigative groups, my dander is up automatically. Time will tell.
Julie Anne Smith,
And re: #SBC21, from across the pond (Le Monde):
“Ed Litton, un pasteur réputé pour son goût du consensus”
“Litton … known for his taste for consensus.” That’s one way to put it.
From the article on julieroys.com:
So they do what in politics is called “opposition research” – find as much dirt as possible about the real or perceived “enemies” of their rich clients.
So if I were a victim of abuse accusing the SBC powers that be of covering up the abuse or mishandling the report, that would make me really uncomfortable.
Making the victims uncomfortable and question if it’s really worth the hurt might be the true purpose of hiring this company.
Well, it will be hot. But notable for its dark skies at night. Trying to understand the moon…. there will be a moon each night, so trying to figure out when it will not be at its brightest.
Well, no, but it would be fun! You have dark skies, then?
Our Cub Scouts camped out at a local astronomy park a couple of years ago. There was a very bright full moon. All the astronomy club observers were griping about how little they could see in the rest of the sky, but there was plenty to impress the Cubs.
Yep, rural Kentucky. In our county, we have no hospital, no new car dealership, no hospital, no steakhouse……. Definitely no skyline!
Victimize the victims……… Looks like that has become the Southern Baptist Good Ole Boys method of promoting the “gospel”……. Protect a bunch of dirty men, while raking in easy money and brainwashing, uhm evangelizing, the lost……Honoring women (and children) by trying to destroy them.
Some of those holy, highly educated theologians needs to point me to the inerrant, infallible words in red that say this is the Christian thing to do……. Prove that they are only trying to emulate our Savior. I’d even settle for a few words from one of Paul’s epistles.
But, they are doing what Ronnie Floyd indicated when he said, “preserve the base”.
So I visited Julie Roys story and learned that Guideposts charges $700 an hour per investigator. So four ‘investigators’ will ring up over $100k in billings for a single week! Whose paying that bill? The victims? Why, with that kind of money, you can afford a sizable ‘donation’ to an organization like the kind operated by denHollander. (With these kinds of sums, cynicism and suspicion are the rational response; do not yield to the supposed benefit of the doubt, the legal mechanism that let’s guilty walk free.)
Follow the money, not low hanging twitterfruit, which is mostly empty calories.
The “average Joes”, the pew peons, are paying that bill.
Gotta keep those CP (Cooperative Program) funds rolling in, so pass those offering plates…… Then there are the Lottie Moon Christmas and Annie Armstrong Easter offerings ……
Sacrificial giving, used to sacrifice the hurt and abused.
The SBC leaders do not care about the abused. They make the victim out as the blame and dismiss them. I left the SBC in 2018 and wish I had left decades earlier. I held out hope for a long time.
Happy hunting. In 2007 we went through the high desert in Nevada. Beautiful skies. With a small telescope you can see the Gallilean moons of Jupiter & rings of Saturn. have fun
Enjoy! That sounds like a wonderful trip.
Dismissal is bad enough, but these days a lot of victims, especially women, can fully expect to be doxxed and threatened.
$700 an hour per investigator paid to Guideposts, via SBC leadership that collects from the duped SBC consumers.
Graft (CSA predators, vice)
Grift (Guideposts investigators & lawyers $$$ for damage control)
Goons (SBA leadership in control of narrative & $$$ collection from pew)
Perfect trifecta of power, vice & $$$.
Predators glory in vice, under the pricey and lovely Guideposts cover-up, authorized by the getaway car driver leaders of the org (paid for by SBC pew sitters or consumers).
Epstein, Weinstein, Cosby et al would be so proud. They also had their pricey savvy snake oil lawyers & PR agents, big money (sourced from duped consumers), and entitled power (manipulate, dominate) to get what they want.
Ahhhh, the satisfaction of trampling a victim, for cause: protecting Dear Leader (predator), homage to predator BFF leadership circle, & maintaining institutional community (the org, which is actually a hunting ground for predators).
A victim is a survivor is a witness is a fighter.
Through no intention of their own, victims are put in the position of fighting against gaslighting and for the truth of what they have experienced long after the assault, like, forever. Ex: Holocaust deniers.
Following CSA, victims face lifelong assault on their character because they carry the truth about a covert predator who, along with co-conspirator BFFs, & groomed community, do not want the world to know. Truth of predators identity & activity.
The covert predator + BFF leaders + groomed community fight the victim forever, to protect predator’s cover, to maintain BFF entitled leadership positions, and to protect the community org.
I am wondering why Rachel Denhollander is recommending this group.
Great comment! Opposition research…
“Guideposts” (plural) is the name of a well known devotional periodical. I wonder if “Guidepost Solutions” (note where the plural is indicated) is a an attempt to take advantage of the similarity in names. I note a couple of casual abbreviation of “Guidepost Solutions” to “Guideposts” in the comments.
You too? I have thoughts…
I’d be interested in hearing them. I have such admiration of Rachael Denhollander, but recommending Guidepost looks really problematic.
My guess is that GRACE wasn’t recommended, because Rachael knew that there was no way the SBC would go for that, after Boz Tchividjian’s gutsy speech at Caring Well.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Isn’t her husband an SBC pastor?
3 reasons predation flourishes, the 3 support pillars:
– predator him/herself (the con)
– predator’s owned & validating influencers/normalizers (Epstein had Harvard) (SBC leaders) (LE have bros in blue)
– predator’s groomed social network/community (SBC) (LE unions)
An advocate may be stellar in the athletic community, regarding an evil trainer/physician. May not carry over.
Happens in other communities, for example, the LE community. Cops don’t see the predator in blue. Ann Rule worked alongside Ted Bundy at a call center for victims. She never knew. What we don’t see or perceive.
Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit given to members of the church individually for the benefit of the entire church. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4. God has answers. Do we seek them/Him?
Friends, I don’t know if the prayer page is still working but I could do with some prayer, so hope Dee doesn’t mind me posting here.
I have had an allergy problem giving me eustachian tube dysfunction for the past year, so am dizzy & nauseated a lot, which is exhausting. Please pray for this to abate & all sources of allergy to be found.
I’m also going through one of my periodic dark times with faith when I feel that God could be someone who picks & chooses us at whim, & is just a big puppeteer. Please pray that this is the final time I ever go through these questions & feelings, & I am assured of our free will & God’s love & goodness. I do now have a lovely Christian psychologist who tells me that the way I first encountered those ideas caused me actual proper trauma, which is why they’ve continued to be troublesome.
I’m feeling pretty miserable overall, so would welcome a bit of Wartburg love.
It’s always a red flag when any institution is in charge of hiring another to investigate itself! It’s clear that some SBC ministers and ministries have abused folks – they are not safe. You can’t solve this problem in-house. If you write checks to the “third party”, it is not truly a third party … it is a second party responsible to the first party. Those deals come with a tendency and temptation to sweep things under the rug.
Perhaps all denominations need to make contributions to a truly independent entity which is available to investigate any member organization when necessary (a church form of the FBI). They would tap the pool of money for such investigation, without relying on an individual denomination for sole support. Funds could also be used for victim compensation. But, I suppose that would have its pitfalls too. I don’t know what the answer is … but the SBC/Guidepost arrangement is not the way to go. No matter how you stretch it, it is not an “independent” investigation.
God love you. Praying for you, dear beloved of God.
Have fun! I’d guess the desert, but not this time of year 😉
Has she researched them? Maybe she doesn’t realize what the really do.
I prayed for you just now Beaker.
Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in salvation in a way that is beyond human comprehension. If you’ve put your faith in Christ, let God work out the rest.
“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me” (Jesus). All of our questions of life are answered in this verse.
Praying for you, Beaker.
Make an Example of one and you silence a hundred.
Scripture(TM) can – and HAS – been weaponized for the Beatdown of Victims.
All In GAWD’S Name.
I have just stopped to pray for you, BeakerN, and then I stopped praying to send you this message. 😉 I hope that you receive skilled medical care and relief from your symptoms. I also hope that your faith grows strong again as you continue to do your difficult and worthy work.
I don’t think he’s a pastor, not yet, anyway..
He is ( was?) a student at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, working towards a PhD, I believe…….. definitely reformed Baptist (Calvinist).
I’m trying Max, it just bites sometimes & doesn’t let go. The upshot for me is the character of God, because ultimately that’s what you trust when you don’t understand other things.
You’re gonna’ love it!
When the night sky is not filled with a ka-zillion-mega-watts of man-made electric light, the view can truly be a religious experience (not being trite or cliche).
I’ve been to places where the old familiar Constellations are actually hard to pick out because the star fields are so densely arrayed.
True. Thx for this encouraging word. I am also grateful for what Max shared. Max is a TWW brother we can rely on, through thick and thin.
Bryce Canyon NP in Utah gets cool at night and has clear, dark skies. Got down to freezing (at night) when we camped there one June. They had Ranger-led star-gazing programs with a telescope, wonder if they have started those up again.
Count me in too Beaks…
Are you miserable too Muff, or am I counting you in on the love? (Tbf I always count you in on the love.)
That’s pillar #3, part of a groomed community (groomed overall because predators in general freely operate; note @RobDownenChron database).
That’s also approaching pillar #2, becoming part of the leadership, as a SBC pastor or professor. This is the leadership that BFFs predators as they do NOT deal with their predator pastor colleagues (refusal to maintain a database, etc.). Also, are they on any SBC committees or in leadership now? Are they consultants, paid by the org? Are they being used by the org as a part of their cover, IOW, excellent PR (the couple’s name is known)? (Tom Cruise and Scientology)
A pillar would be either a red flag or the opportunity to show integrity by recusing from the situation. Recusal is common among LE and the DOJ, when they operate with integrity. Sometimes they don’t, as in the film “Spotlight”, where DOJ LE & clergy & politicians were in sync.
Beaker, I have been going through spiritually and emotionally dark times for a few years, too. And, then there’s the physical stuff …. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (result of asevere case of airborne mono), messed up SI joint, esophageal stricture……
We may be going through and dealing with different problems with different causes, but the mental results are basically the same. I hear ya, loud and clear.
Both of us know, it’s not God. It’s people …. choices, those unpredictable actions/reactions, domino effect: sometimes due to our own decisions, but more often, the decisions of others. Don’t know why: it just is.
Some days, it’s difficult for me to pray… but when I can, I will, for you.
Don’t forget—- we are stronger and tougher than we think we are…… all of us.
Yep. That could explain why Denhollander recommended/approved of GS.
Thanks Nancy, I also have CFS due to having mono too many times. It sucks. My heart goes out to you too. Thank you for praying as you can. I’ll pray for you too.
There are Christians & Christian leaders who support NONE of the 3 pillars. Dee here at TWW is one. Same with Jimmy Hinton. These are heroes:
Amy Smith @watchkeep “My parents never want to see me or my husband & kids again because I reported & exposed a pedophile.”
Real Christians. Litmus test. Hebrews 11-12. Their eyes are fixed on the City of God that is to come and on Jesus. Surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, they throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. They run the race set before them with perseverance.
In contrast, Judas started out as one of the 12 (WOW!), but ended up on the Dark Side:
– in the misled duped community that chose Barabbas
– then selling out to the evil insecure powerful threatened and threatening narcissistic leaders, partnering as a co-conspirator
– and finally Judas became a predator himself, turning over our Lord for execution.
We choose our community, our leaders, our own actions. Choice.
We pay a price (like Amy Smith mentions) now. Actions play out in our interactions here on Earth.
Then there’s Eternity (Judas vs the other 11). Our Earthly lives reap Eternal consequences.
Beaker, I am praying for you to experience God’s healing love for both your physical and spiritual pain. ((HUGS)) to you at this difficult time.
growing up we camped a lot in Yosemite. we were there when a meteor shower was passing through. we took our camping chairs out to a meadow and looked up for the show. every 3 seconds: zing, across the sky.
that may have been the last time i’ve seen more than just a handful of stars. my kids have never seen more than a handful.
actually, whenever i go somewhere (especially on other continents), i always look for Orion. ‘He’ and the moon are, like, my faithful companions.
And then when i get back home, I look for them again. They connect me back to where I had been, and the good experiences and people there.
Well, they connect me to all my loved ones scattered near and far, and to every human who has ever walked the planet — it’s an awesome feeling.
On June 11, 2021 Rachael Denhollander Tweeted:
“Guidepost is a highly skilled and qualified firm and I have confidence in their ability to do what the SBC needs. HOWEVER, the ability to do what they are capable of will depend on the EC letting them do their job.”
Additionally, in another Tweet on the same date Rachael Denhollander stated:
“Guidepost is a truly independent, international firm that specializes in policy and cultural analysis and ethical compliance, with leaders that have a strong background in religious dynamics. I’ve been aware of their work for several years and been very pleased.”
Rachael is a well respected advocate for those who have been sexually abused. I am wondering if, in light of what Wade Mullen has revealed about Guidepost Solutions, she still stands by her endorsement?
Praying for you, BeakerN (and I’m leaving it to the Holy Spirit to translate my heartfelt prayers for you….His are way better than mine.)
Nancy, when I hear you write stuff like that, I just want to put my family in the car to swing by your place and take you out for all-you-can-eat fried catfish somewhere. My bunch could cheer you up – I guarantee!
so sorry, BeakerN. I’m acquainted with dark times. i’ll say a prayer.
one thing i do is consider every positive interaction (even a “hello” from a store clerk), every moment that is remotely positive (the experience of clean socks, clean sheets, a favorite food, a happy memory, etc) as a powervitamin.
No I’m not in misery.
I’m just an Empath who gets haunted by the pain of others.
And yes, it’s love that makes us stand in solidarity with those in our circle who are in pain. So yeah, count me in to appeal to the King on your behalf.
What does that mean?
Epstein surrounded himself with highly skilled and qualified. Cover, camou.
DSK of the IMF, highly skilled and qualified, used Guidepost Solutions to dig up dirt on his alleged victim, for his defense against the immigrant blue collar worker in NYC (who said she was living her best life even as an unskilled & not highly qualified worker until he attacked her, allegedly). Guidepost Solutions was highly skilled and qualified in digging up dirt on the maid, though it had nothing to do with the allegations of DSK attacking her. (Would Boz’s org ever do this? Dig up irrelevant “dirt” on alleged victims to defend an alleged predator?)
Then DSK was exposed in prostitution trafficking rings in Europe: his secret night life of underground sex dens in various cities. DSK’s highly skilled, reputable and qualified wife was part of his cover. She finally divorced him after the sex den flings were exposed.
Education, professional reputation and skills can be camou in predation. *Actions* should speak louder than pedigree and professional society association.
*Actions* in hidden encounters with maids, children, minors such as teens, interns, people seeking counseling & clergy help, wherever there is a power differential or vulnerability or opportunity, etc.
Maya Angelou’s “When people show you who they are, believe them the first time,” comes to mind.
What’s odd about this sanctioning of Guidepost Solutions is that we are already experienced with the duping con of a highly professional, qualified and skilled man in the sports medicine field.
“professional, qualified and skilled” is not the answer. Explicitly demonstrated moral fibre is, specific to dealing with predation.
Stieg Larsson’s “Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” features society’s best (wealth, position, family legacy, skilled, qualified, reputable, educated, attractive) who are exposed as powerful predators of underage or marginalized victims. The underbelly of their perfect image is evil and dangerous. Deadly.
As Christians we need to remind ourselves that the world offers what looks good and feels good, with great achievements and lovely possessions. But without love and care for all – including the marginalized & vulnerable – it’s not of God, not love, and ends in evil. – from 1 John 2
Victims often don’t appear wonderful, seem powerless, and are needy. Not a good look. Are the beautiful people good for looks only? What’s their moral fibre? Are we shallow Christians? Or are we attentive beyond pedigree & image?
Personally, I was raised with an extremely image conscious, education/profession conscious brand of Christianity. “Go help the poor lost overseas but maintain top-drawer at home.” It takes a lifetime of deconstruction to see and relate to others like Jesus, who is truth and love.
Thanks, Max. I’m still unstoppable – I just have to be unstoppable in slow motion some of the time. Sometimes I just need to lay up in a thicket somewhere and lick my wounds, like an old hound dog. (Dummy feels better when she does her physical therapy like she’s suppose to.)
Catfish??? You’re talkin’ my language there! Hmmmm, Catfish House in Clarksville, TN …… or
Shady Bluff just over in Logan Co., KY. …….. Just the idea makes me hangry……. fried pickles, fried okra, fresh strawberry pie, or warm apple cobbler a la mode, mmmmmmm. Or, just catch and cook at home…… air fries or potato salad, fried green tomatoes, hush puppies………mmmmmmm. Corn on the cob….
By asking, I’m not suggesting you need to, but have you called or written Denhollander?
If so, what was her response?
Also from the Roy’s Report, Guidepost standard charge is $700/hour. What does that say when any church org. is both willing and able to pay that much for their reputation management? This org. is quite possibly the most expensive rep management company that exists. Those doing so are going with the Cadillac model. I wonder how many of the donors who gave to “Christian” orgs that have used them know that this is where their donations are going? How many would care if they found out?
The best view of the Milky Way I have ever had was from the combo of Alpine altitude and remoteness in the high White Mountains of Arizona. On a clear night it can look like this: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/89/44/fb89446e47dd69cb0aacc65d20a33980.jpg
About 2/3 of the way down:
“ Bottom line: when one faction of Southern Baptists adopts as their social media symbol a pirate flag–an image long associated with greed, theft, and all manner of unrepentant sin–believe them. In the SBC, the pirates who plunder seminary donations and run roughshod over the vulnerable are real.
This war is about a man who thought himself beyond accountability, who discovered that he wasn’t and didn’t take it well. It’s about a group of cronies who have devoted themselves to snatching and raising cash to help him build a political machine, the Conservative Baptist Network, upon which to stage his comeback. It’s about his attempt to install a faithful lieutenant, Mike Stone, as President of the SBC so they can get the band back together.”
The person who wrote this is a member of the SBC Resolutions Committee.
From the home page of Guidepost Soln.
“Our team of experts thrives on keeping you, your business, and your operations moving forward. Our goal is to help you seize opportunities on the horizon, minimize disruption, or move on from difficulty.
Guidepost Solutions is a leader in domestic and international investigations, compliance solutions, monitoring, and security and technology consulting.”
After reading more on what they do, my own conclusion is that they are not hired to be an impartial body. They work for the benefit of the org. who hires them i.e. SBCExcomm only, excluding abuse survivers.
What SBC’s investigation need is a 3rd party independent IMPARTIAL org. guiding SBC to right the wrongs, to shine a light on facts and lies, to move forward with better ways to handle abuse cases that will be reported in the future, and to stop passing around abusers with SBC churches.
Squash that whistleblower like a mosquito swat on a hot night under the moonlight.
How wonderful! That’s the only way to see the Milky Way nowadays. Enjoy!
Hope you find that place, a world free from bright lights … may you see the MW in all its splendor … billions of stars painting the sky with a soft white glow, with its black hole holding everything in place. I marveled at it as a child in my backyard before light pollution … now I have to go looking for it.
All I have to do is flick off the outside lights, and I can see those stars.
When I was a kid, we didn’t have a radio in the house that picked up worth a hoot. So, on Saturday nights, when the weather was good, Daddy would turn the car radio on, turn off the porch light, go lean back in a lawn chair, and listen to the Grand Ole Opry. Me? …… I would climb up on the hood of the car, lie back on the windshield, and look at the stars.
Plan on doing that with my grandson when he’s a little older. I have a telescope to share with him…..and some old cassette tapes.
When he gets past his “Bug! Yuk!” stage, I’ll get a mason jar and we’ll go gently investigate “lightening” bugs. Gotta pass the torch.
I believe children today suffer from a nature deficit disorder. You’re doing the right things with your grandson to stop the progression of that as he gets older. I talked to a 50-something fellow at a trout stream last weekend who recently discovered he could turn off his cellphone and enjoy himself in the outdoors. He lamented for having missed so many years of enjoying the natural world with his mind stuck in technology. I told him how fortunate he was for finally getting it, that he still had years left to fish, hike, observe. Of course, I say all that gazing at a computer screen … but will be spending the afternoon with my grandsons playing with balsa wood gliders and harvesting green peas from their raised bed garden summer project. Heck, if we stay late enough, we might look for some lightning bugs!
P.S. To keep this thread on blog topic, Guidepost Solutions is NOT the solution to investigations in the SBC.
If you eat southern, pray for us. We have total crop failure on the purple hulls. Not one plant has sprouted:( With multiple plantings. I do have enough in the freezer, just not enough to share this year. Next year I may go full on rebellion and plant crowders.
BeakerN–prayers for you! I too suffered allergy/eustachian tube dysfunction for years. I get it–that stabbing pain deep inside the ear, and the dizziness. So will pray for you! Oddly enough it went away when we moved south. Oh, the allergies were there while we were in Colorado, but the ear pain subsided. Seems up north the barometer swings were too much. Then in time my joints, every blasted one of them, started the same response. And so we had to find a lower altitude. At lower altitude my open tube finally closed, and while I can get bouts of it with severe weather, it doesn’t happen often. Joints feel fine too! But I do find I am elevation sensitive–anything over about 2000 feet will bring it right back.
Like Max, you may very well be helping to change the future from one of darkness and cruelty to one of human hope.
Fun times with grandma make wonderful memories.
Does Southern Kentucky work?? —— Like less than 25 miles from the Tennessee state line southern Southern Kentucky?
Must be a bad year for beans; our field peas didn’t sprout, either. Green beans are looking good, though. And I fried some nice green tomatoes last night – you don’t find those at the grocery store.
P.S. To keep this thread on topic, I firmly agree with Max’s P.S.
In the article you asked, “Why is Rachel Denhollander recommending Guideposts as opposed to GRACE?” – but I think that might mis-frame what actually happened. Seems to me there was no recommendation b/c the decision was made without her input. She was reacting to their decision to have an investigation headed up by Guideposts, so she made a judgement on her assessment of their qualifications & reputation. And, her larger point seemed to be to criticize the parameters of the investigation, as it had been announced by the SBC. It’s clear that there are some significant potential issues with Guideposts – so maybe she wasn’t aware of those, or she thinks that they’re still capable of doing a proper independent investigation *if* that’s the job that they’re given. Maybe if they’d asked her who she recommended for an investigation, she’d have pointed towards GRACE rather than Guideposts.
Rachael Denhollander is an attorney, and also a spokesperson for survivors of abuse. She specifically endorsed the quality of the work of Guidepost on June 11, saying she has been aware of their work for several years. Her concern was not about the quality of their work, but on the limitations that the SBC would place on them.
Thus she lends her own credibility to Guidepost.
She has tweeted quite a lot since then, but you can scroll down to June 11 and take a look.
GRACE tells it like it is … probably the primary reason they weren’t selected by SBC.
Not a good year for peas in my area (too hot too early), but did manage to pick a few yesterday from my grandson’s raised garden … also harvested his first crop of green beans … green tomatoes here are not big enough to fry yet.
P.S. To keep this thread on the blog topic, SBC leaders would be better people if they ate fried green tomatoes.
Yeah, I actually went back and looked at her posts to confirm I understood exactly what she’d said, before I wrote my post.
I agree that GRACE has a significantly better reputation for tending the needs of the victims than Guideposts – so I think they’d be a better choice for pretty much any investigation of this nature.
My primary issue here was that the article here at WW framed Rachel’s actions as “recommending Guideposts as opposed to GRACE”, when she was never (to my knowledge) asked, “Hey, we’re thinking of doing an investigation of the SBC – who would you recommend?”. Rather, after the decision was made, she endorsed them as a legit organization and went on to qualify that endorsement by saying that they would produce a poor result if their ‘investigation’ had a narrow scope and no written report.
Here’s an analogy – you say that you’re gonna go get yourself a turkey sandwich from Panera. I may very well say, “Hrmm, sounds pretty good, Panera makes some good stuff – had a bite of my wife’s turkey sandwich once and it was tasty. But I’d have to order mine without the raw tomatoes because those are straight-up horrible.” But if you came back and said, “So, you’re recommending a Panera turkey sandwich over a delicious pizza from Radius, then.” – that’d be completely weird, because pizza was never even brought up as an option. Of course I’d pick a pizza over a turkey sandwich – both are good, but one is ever so much better.
And did the dishes, and cleaned the kitchen. Doggone it! I’ll even teach ‘em to fry their own green ‘maters.
A little humility is good for the soul (that goes both ways, btw).
I really don’t understand how Christians lose sight of this so easily. Most people wouldn’t want their kids to act like spoiled dictators, but they have no problem allowing that from their church leaders…
Thanks. Of course, the stakes are higher in an investigation. Still, I can’t imagine a famous chef saying, “I have never eaten at Panera but have been aware of them for a few years, so definitely have them cater” … to your wishes.
I’ll stop drawing comparisons now, unless someone offers to bribe me with fried green tomatoes.
There are two things that New Calvinists within SBC would never be accused of: humility and love.
Random kitten update: Leo has the energy of 50 toddlers and has been using that energy to climb anything he can find. He knows his name now but learned “Paw” before learning his name. He also has discovered wet food and is a big fan of the water fountain, which he climbs to drink out of the top even if it means putting his feet in the water on the lower level. Cries if he’s left alone unless we completely wear him out and give him food toys (Doc and Pheobe’s mouse toys). Him and my 4-year-old cat played chase this morning, but I will have to work with the 4-year-old on being gentle because she barrels at him like a semi and is at least three times his size.
Lively! Keep the updates coming please. 🙂
Will do. I will post a pic on Twitter of him. The only one I’ve been able to take that’s not just an orange blur…
Tonight’s the night…. moon will be at its least brightest tonight of all nights this week.
leaving at 6:45 pm to arrive at darkest remote location around sunset.
interactive nightsky observing guides texted to all family members.
we have 2 chairs and a few blankets.
prepared in advance to ignore cranky contrarian brother-in-law.
Soak it in and enjoy!
I get this feeling that the cranky contrarian bil might just cease to exist in your mind for a while – I hope I’m right.
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I saw the picture. The kitten is adorable!
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Yeah, where’s my kitty upvote button? Leo looks like he has more brains than an entire town. <3
However, if there’s food poisoning, not a great choice.
Where opposition research is used to intimidate victims is not good, IMHO, with regard to alleged victims. May work for an alleged predator.
Their clients, like the two above, willingly & can pay the rumored $700/hr/investigator fees. Stakes are high for these public figures with secret lives (exposed eventually).
Churches are in this league, big bucks to cover up big secrets of big public figures? Not in good company, IMHO.
We had an extremely popular lead pastor having an affair with a former secretary. Legal, but undesired at our church. The church let him go. He’s selling cars or real estate or something. Don’t know if he’s with his wife, or mistress, or both, or neither. But he makes a good living. No longer as a pastor. However, he has access to all the women he desires, with no job conflict and no secrets to hide (from a congregation).
An arena that the Church of the Living God should not be in … of course, I wouldn’t consider these bad boy ministers and ministries a part of the Body of Christ … the Great Commission is not their mission.
It does seem odd, doesn’t it. Look how far we’ve come. Church. Perhaps the real culture war is right within church, instead of out there in the hinterland of paganism.
Nope, nope, nopity-nope (to steal Muslin’s line), but a tax-free goldmine is, and it suits em’ just fine.
Yuppity yupyup. With the remedy in II Cor, and Ascension Day.
$41 million for a televangelist:
To keep the thread on topic, real Baptists don’t need a prayer meeting until the okra comes a crop failure, lol.
Re southern Kentucky: anyone anywhere near bubbleland out there? Know about that part of Kentucky?
Been mighty close to it, but I’ve never actually been there. I’m about a 2 1/2 hour drive from where you have to actually leave Kentucky to get to Kentucky.
For all y’all that don’t know, bubbleland (New Madrid Bend) is that part of Kentucky that is not connected to Kentucky – almost surrounded by the Mississippi (with Missouri on the other bank, and no bridge). Tennessee is the only land connection. From there, have to leave Kentucky and drive through Tennessee to get to Kentucky.
Gonna drive over there one of these days, just so I can say I’ve been there. I hear there’s not much there, but I’d have to drive through LBL in KY (Land Between the Lakes …. Kentucky Lake and Lake Barkley) and right by Reelfoot Lake in TN ….. that would make it well worth a day trip…… maybe even a camping expedition. There’s some fine catfish places around the LBL area!
We drove through land between the lakes a couple of years ago in the fall. It was sooo pretty but they were drying the tobacco and being non smokers, we found the area real stinky. Other times of the year I assume that would not be a problem. Bubble land is also if I remember correctly about 2 and 1/2 hours or so from us. When we go east we drive by the sign for the ferry, the way you get there from Missouri.
Apologies for the thread drift.
Demhollander has multiple blind spots. These investigative third parties are in business primarily to make money. Making money requires saddling up to those who control purse springs. Depend on secular remedies, get secular results.
Bingo. And the ironic thing is poor victims being used as circus animals by the very folks who claim to feel their pain.
Charles Scott Shaver,
“Making money requires saddling up to those who control purse springs. Depend on secular remedies, get secular results.”
hmmmm…. what make a remedy secular?
When it comes to abuse and stopping it, the secular world does a better job than the church at the moment.
Believe me, If I were there, I’d be patronizing those places on a regular basis.
I love fried catfish!
Aside from the restaurants (the restaurant at Patti’s 1880’s Settlement even does fried green tomatoes, when in season), they have some good channel cats and spoonbills in the lakes ……. bass, crappie….
Guy’s still a piker.
Kenneth Copeland remains the World’s Richest Televangelist, not much shy of a cool BILLION.
Didn’t that beautiful Rabbi from Nazareth say something to the effect of:
“Verily I say unto you, They have their reward…”