Two doomed stars create a cosmic necklace. NASA
” The first step to be a good man is this. You must deeply feel the burden of the stones some else is carrying.” Mehmet Murat ildan
Moderates, hard right, conservative: Do the words really describe what is being said?
If I had been a Baptist and a messenger to the SBC, I probably would have voted for Ed Litton. At the minimum, he’s a truly nice guy, something that couldn’t be said for many candidates, past and present, in my opinion. Most news reports are calling him a moderate.
The NY Times headlined it as Southern Baptists Narrowly Head Off Conservative Takeover It was subtitled Ed Litton, a moderate pastor from Alabama, won a high-stakes presidential election with the potential to reshape the future of the country’s largest Protestant denomination.
In a dramatic showdown on Tuesday, Southern Baptists elected a moderate pastor from Alabama as their next president, narrowly heading off an attempted takeover by the denomination’s insurgent right wing..
The Washington Post reported Southern Baptists elect Ed Litton as their president, a defeat for the hard right:
Other SBC presidential candidates included Albert Mohler, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In the first round of voting, Mohler garnered fewer votes than Litton and Stone. In a runoff, Litton received 52 percent of the vote, while Stone received 47.81 percent.
Stone had the support of a group called the Conservative Baptist Network that formed in 2020 to try to steer the convention in a hard-right direction. The CBN hosted its own gathering Tuesday at a nearby hotel featuring speakers who lamented the direction of the country and convention, including the state of public schools, how young people are leaving churches, and “woke” ideologies.
The Daily Beast, harping on the SBC’s penchant for engaging in politics, wrote Hard Right Defeated as Southern Baptists Elect ‘Compassionate’ Pastor to Lead Them ‘BIDEN BAPTISTS’
Litton defeated rival Mike Stone by 52 to 48 percent in a run-off vote after other candidates were eliminated. The Post said that Stone was backed by the hard-right Conservative Baptist Network, which held its own meeting at a Nashville hotel where speakers complained about “woke” ideologies and delegates wore stickers reading “Beat the Biden Baptists.”
… Ed Litton’s election at the convention’s annual meeting in Nashville was reported by the Washington Post, which described it as “a defeat for the hard-right within the nation’s largest Protestant denomination.”
My thoughts and pushback
This election was not between conservatives and moderates. It was between ultra-conservatives and conservatives. Ed Litton is no moderate when it comes to the SBC. He is a supporter of the Baptist Faith and Message. Here is how he responded when asked about the appointment of women pastors by Saddleback Church.
“Without hesitation or reservation I am a complementarian and I wholeheartedly affirm the BF&M (2000). The Bible clearly teaches that the office of pastor is reserved only for qualified men, and I also want to encourage my sisters in Christ to be equipped, using every gift God has given them for the church and its mission with the gospel.”
It is my opinion that the focus of Litton’s presidency will be on racial reconciliation and addressing the painful problem of sex abuse in the SBC.
It is naive to compare his win to the win of Joe Biden over Donald Trump. This election has nothing to do with politics as carried out on the secular stage. This is a religious matter and should be divorced from national politics although some in the SBC have brought this comparison on themselves, given the last few elections.
Racial reconciliation and CRT
The Binghampton Homepage describe Litton in Southern Baptists’ new leader: long career as bridge builder
For the past six years, he’s been active in a Mobile coalition called the Pledge Group, a movement of leaders from different racial, religious and vocational backgrounds who want to shrink the city’s racial divide.
Litton was nominated for president at Tuesday’s SBC meeting by pastor Fred Luter, who in 2012 became the SBC’s first and thus far only Black president. Luter said he’d known Litton for more than 20 years, initially teaming up to preach on behalf of racial reconciliation.
That cause has been an enduring one for Litton, who has built strong relationships with many Black pastors.
Late last year, racial tensions in the SBC were heightened when the presidents of the SBC’s six seminaries — all of them white — issued a statement repudiating critical race theory, a term used to describe critiques of systemic racism. In response, a diverse group of Southern Baptists, including Litton and Luter, co-signed a statement asserting that systemic racial injustice is a reality.
During his presidential campaign, Litton identified unity and diversity as two of his top priorities.
Washington Post referenced above has this to say about reconciliation.
Litton, pastor of First Baptist Church North Mobile in Alabama, pitched himself as someone who would lead the convention toward more racial reconciliation. Fred Luter, the first and only Black pastor to serve as president of the SBC, nominated Litton for the position. At the meeting Tuesday, Litton spoke fondly of how he and Luter have swapped pulpits. The crowd cheered after Luter’s speech in favor of Litton, in which Luter said Litton “brings a compassionate and shepherding heart. We need a pastor who has a love for God and God’s people.”
The following statement by Greear in the WAPO was amusing for me. I bet many TWW readers will figure out why;
Before they voted on resolutions, which included several proposed ones concerning CRT, SBC President J.D. Greear told the convention that it “looks like an SBC that expends more energy decrying things like CRT than they have done lamenting the devastating consequences of years of racial bigotry and discrimination.”
It’s odd how the past can be glossed over. According to Seminary presidents reaffirm BFM, declare CRT incompatible:
SBC President J.D. Greear affirmed the statement as well.
…Greear said. “While we lament the painful legacy that racism and discrimination have left in our country and remain committed to fighting it in every form, we also declare that ideological frameworks like Critical Race Theory are incompatible with the BFM. The Gospel gives a better answer.”
Dwight McKissic, a pastor whom I admire greatly, had said he would leave the SBC if Moher or Stone were elected. Here is what he said late last evening.
My thoughts on this matter.
I thought one of the more boneheaded moves by the SBC was to write the statement condemning Critical Race Theory. At the time this was being written, African American pastors were pulling out of the SBC. This only contributed to the exodus. First of all, it was not necessary to make that statement, no matter what they believed. To make matters worse, the statement was signed by 5 aging white guys. None of them took the time to investigate how SBC African American pastors felt about the issue. Basically, it was one of those white privilege moves that are being talked about when it comes to this issue.
Then we had Al Mohler quoting a slave owner on the practice of women preaching.
Here is a nice response from DR Warre Throckmorton.
What in the world is wrong with these guys?
What happened in the election of the president.
This election was fascinating and should be a warning that the SBC presidency only lasts one year unless there is a pandemic and then it lasted 2 years. I want to be honest. Although I hoped that Litton would win, I thought that the people would go for predictability which means Al Mohler should have won. He didn’t. He came in third. I slapped myself upside my head because three-way races are often unpredictable.
Here is how the elections went according to the New York Times article quoted above.
The election of the pastor, Ed Litton, was the result of what was effectively a three-way standoff for the leadership of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination. In the first round of voting on Tuesday afternoon, Southern Baptists rejected a prominent mainstream candidate and onetime favorite for the presidency, Al Mohler Jr., who received 26 percent of some 14,000 votes.
The race then headed for an immediate runoff vote that pitted an ultraconservative pastor from Georgia, Mike Stone, against Mr. Litton, who has largely avoided the culture wars. When officials announced the results from the stage — Mr. Litton bested Mr. Stone by just 556 votes, or about four percentage points — the floor erupted in a mixture of cheers and boos.
I was watching this in real-time. When Mohler was defeated, I began to think that Litton would win. I assumed that the majority of Mohler’s votes would swing towards Litton. I was right, but barely. My assumption was flawed. In fact, Mike Stone came close to winning, too close. And we should keep this in mind as we look to one year from now. I am surprised that Mike Stone, who is on the steering committee of the Conservative Baptist Network and former Chairman of the SBC Executive Committee, got so many votes. I predict that he will run again on a platform like “My SBC will Never Be Woke.” And he might win.
For now, let’s take a breather and enjoy Litton. I hope he deals well with the sex abuse issues as well as racial reconciliation.
Here is a helpful post from Religion News Services: Who is Ed Litton, the new Southern Baptist Convention president?
1
“I thought one of the more boneheaded moves by the SBC was to write the statement condemning Critical Race Theory. At the time this was being written, African American pastors were pulling out of the SBC. This only contributed to the exodus. First of all, it was not necessary to make that statement, no matter what they believed. To make matters worse, the statement was signed by 5 aging white guys. None of them took the time to investigate how SBC African American pastors felt about the issue. Basically, it was one of those white privilege moves that are being talked about when it comes to this issue.”
Yes, Ma’am!!!
“5 aging white guys. None of them took the time to investigate how SBC African American pastors felt about the issue” – the AWGs don’t listen to women regarding women’s issues either. AWGs rule, apparently, unfortunately, and decide everything for everyone. Foolish AWGs.
Jesus was neither aged nor a white guy, although he was a guy. Moreover, he listened to people, people different from himself. Like women.
His wife Kathy Litton was a member of the Credentials Committee from its inception until January 2021, as she was the Convention’s Registration Secretary.
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/floyd-greear-stare-down-division-call-for-refocus-on-the-great-commission-at-ec-meeting/
Feb 23, 2021
“EC members also voted for Don Currence to replace Kathy Litton as SBC Registration secretary. Litton resigned last month after her husband Ed announced his willingness to be nominated for SBC president. Another vacancy on the Credentials Committee was tabled until the 2021 SBC Annual Meeting in June.”
I didn’t know this. Given how they treated Jules, I have a problem.
Ed Litton…… a “moderate”. Twenty years ago they would have, no, did call him a “conservative”. The parameters are clearly shifting.
Okay, I just have to love all this crap. It’s “deja vu all over again.” In the 80’s, I was a member of Friends of Missions when I was pastoring in NC. Our role was to get as many moderates out to the SBC to vote against the “fundies” who said our seminaries were overridden with liberals. (They were not; at least SEBTS was not at that time.) This was back in the day of 45,000 people going to the convention. Despite all our efforts, the “FunDAMmentalists” won. I left my last convention (San Antonio, 1988) knowing that we lost the SBC to Paige making a comment to a friend, “Just wait until the Fundies go to war against each other.”
Jump ahead until this week. In the 80’s CBF was formed to head off the Conservatives. Now the “Conservative Baptist Network” wants to save the SBC from “moderate fundamentalists.” So many of the arguments against the current SBC leadership were the very same used against the moderates in the 80’s. Now the SBC is splitting into two groups: one who supported the politics of the last president and those who did not. (I am NOT interjecting politics into this discussion; read the statements of each side.) So interesting that the new SBC president is considered a “moderate.” How the definition of “moderate” has changed since 1988 . . .
Today just as it was in the ’80s, a HUGE vote on the day for president; the next day fewer votes for lower positions. Thus, people come in for the “big vote” but don’t stay for the larger convention issues. Get “your” president elected . . .
So wait until next year. While SBC presidents traditionally get a 2 year term, mark my words, the Conservative Baptist Network will be back to challenge next year after a year of calling the “moderate conservatives” “liberal” so they can win the presidency. And they will. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Is this documentary evidence why overall numbers of Americans are less involved in organized religion than ever? Who wants to get involved in this “stuff”?
In the end, the SBC is not about the Gospel, “winning souls”, caring about people, more less those who have been abused. The SBC is about Power and Control; those who have it; those who do not. And the rest be damned. Just send us your Cooperative Program dollars and leave us alone; we have the power and just “trust us.”
In 1971, Jimmy Stewart made one of his last movies entitled “Fools’ Parade” and he played a character named “Mattie Appleyard.” During the movie Mattie commented, “God uses the good ones. The bad ones use God.”
And so it goes . . .
I pastored three NC churches after my graduation from SEBTS (1980, 1986) and was a member of Friends of Missions who tried to get Moderates out to conventions to hold the SBC against those who said the “seminaries were liberal”; which they were NOT. This is back when 45,000 people came to the convention. My last SBC was 1988 in San Antonio when those of us marched to the Alamo when our seminary president, Randall Lolley declared our need to fight. Too late. I told a friend at the Alamo, “Just wait until the Fundies start fighting each other.”
Fast forward to 2021. CBF has been replaced by the “Conservative Baptist Network” who brought in numbers of people to vote for SBC president but the second day votes were lower as people only came to vote for control of the convention. The arguments used by the “conservative Baptists” against the “Moderate conservative Baptists” are the very ones used back in the 80’s. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The SBC is becoming split between those who did and did not support a certain presidential candidate. DON’T throw out my comment; not being political here; read the stances of each group and decide for yourself.
Thus, the issue is not about “the Bible” or “winning souls” or “Jesus.” The issue is power. Who has the power to control the SBC. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
In 1971, one of Jimmy Stewart’s last movies was entitled “Fools’ Parade” and he played a character named “Mattie Appleyard.” Mattie made a telling statement: “God uses the good ones. The bad ones use God.”
And so it goes . . .
BTW . . . the SBC president is traditionally granted a 2 year “reign.” The second year is usually uncontested.
Do not be surprised as the Conservative Baptist Network raises mayhem over the “liberalism” in the current SBC and brings a candidate next year against Litton. That is when they will win and take over.
Just how “conservative” is “conservative?”
“This election was not between conservatives and moderates. It was between ultra-conservatives and conservatives.” (Dee)
Agreed.
During the Conservative Resurgence, the ole boys worked diligently to purge the SBC of moderates and liberals. Many were booted from leadership roles at SBC seminaries. The showdown at SBTS when Mohler took the reigns there was downright ugly as moderate professors were shown the door, including women of course.
It continues to amaze me that everyone still avoids the “C” word (Calvinist, not Conservative). SBC’s “ultra-conservatives” (let’s call them Trump Baptists) are predominantly non-Calvinist. SBC’s “conservatives” (CBN called them Biden Baptists) are predominantly New Calvinists. SBC’s Conservative Resurgence was actually a Calvinist Resurgence in disguise.
This is a war for Southern Baptist identity and will determine what SBC’s default theology will be in the future … Calvinist or Arminian. IMO, that war is over … the New Calvinists won … they plundered and looted all the SBC stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and have taken over a growing number of once-traditional SBC churches).
Yet, no one is talking about Calvinism as the root of much of what ails SBC. Mohler (New Calvinism) and Ascol (Old Calvinism) want to take SBC back to its pre-Civil War theological roots without asking millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists if they want to go there. Patterson and Stone (traditional Southern Baptists) want to take the SBC back from Mohler. Litton wants to do something entirely different but will have a rough row to hoe … Mohler and Stone aren’t going away. I’m heedlessly pessimistic that Litton will be able to achieve much – there are just too many SBC bad-boys lying in wait for him.
It’s just so sad for me to watch, coming from a long line of Southern Baptists who served the Lord and SBC faithfully. I may have to retire from the blogosphere for awhile and think things through.
I don’t ever recall this kind of drama and factional warfare in Lutheranism.
They just did a split into two Synods (LCMS and ELCA) and were done with it
Dee brought up the matter of CRT. This is something I had not really heard of until recently. Now it is everywhere in the news it seems and it is a very, very divisive topic whenever brought up. Both sides appear radical, according to the news, using pejoratives to describe those who are very much on the other side. I must not be the only one noticing this. But what the heck is it really?
I do not trust either of the factions using the pejoratives to give me a fair assessment. To some it is the savior for minorities. To other it is anti-patriotic and even racist in its own way. So I looked to Wikipedia as it is contains contributions from a bit of everyone from the radicals on both sides to those more moderate. It gave me an interesting perspective.
What I found is that its primary foes were originally liberal whites promoting the old standard lines. Minorities were getting tired of their politics not working to accomplish what they wanted. This may be why their was a statement accepting that it might have some role in seminaries. Some of the academics may have noticed the infighting on the left and thought that whatever it was that was producing it that may be a good thing.
Beyond that I already stated that it has an element of post-modern philosophy. The old white liberals were the ones calling into question its lack of basis in an objective reality outside of personal experience. This puts personal experience up their on the pedestal of truth and knocks a God who might have an opinion of His own off of the throne. It also appears to lack a way of accomplishing specific things politically, no practical strategy. It is more of a nebulous philosophy then something practical.
But bottom line for me is that there are no political solutions for the common problems of men. Not liberal, conservative or whatever. Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life. CRT is none of these things. Sometimes political systems are very racist, just look at the south before the 70’s and South Africa for most of its history. Sometimes they are not. But all political systems are fallen like the men inside of them. The short of it is that all the ballyhoo for CRT is an excuse to waste a lot of energy arguing over what is a non-solution. Jesus Christ is the solution for racism and all of the other very real evil that men do. It is certainly not worth anyone getting violent over but that has already happened…
Yes. He listened. He did.
and He had no hesitation to send Mary of Magdala to announce His Resurrection to ‘the boyz’
Thanking God for Dr. McKissic’s decision to stay. He’s a man of his word. Likely he will help in some of the healing that needs to take place.
The SBC should be encouraged to read and digest this post from TheWeeFlea on the subject of abuse in the Church.
https://theweeflea.com/2021/06/17/28347/
I was told years ago that the leaders conservative resurgence and their progeny would not stop until the SBC was splintered into a thousand pieces. That appears now to be a very prescient observation.
Luckyforward,
When “wound up” about conservatism, or liberalism, for that manner, one is never enough….. it turns into a game of “who does it better”…. which is one of the points that the rabbi from Nazareth was speaking to..
Litton is an old-fashioned moderate.
Next year’s Convention is in Anaheim (so it will be attended by vacationers and denominational employees). He’ll propose a formal name change away from “Southern,” and is already downplaying any move to unseat Rick Warren’s Saddleback church.
And each piece believing that they were right and sole keepers of the one true gospel.
Clearly.
Power. $$$. Followed by vice. See how that worked with the trajectory of Falwell Jr among others.
@JeffSharlet, PROFESSOR OF ENGLISH at Dartmouth, journalist, writer, Creative Writing Program Director, has covered this in his books:
“The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power” which is also a Netflix doc series.
“C Street: The Fundamentalist Threat to American Democracy”
The trifecta of evil, how it begins and where it ends: power, $$$, vice.
Thx for the link. From the article:
“‘Scripture was used to justify violence’.”
Scripture is used to justify every kind of evil. Note: Jesus and satan in the wilderness, where satan quoted Scripture as a path to evil. Our Lord did not take the bait.
Which is why Al Mohler wasn’t slinging snot about losing to Litton. He still holds the keys of the SBC kingdom.
And continues to in certain corners of the American church … “Is that what God said?”
It should be noted that the Conservative Baptist Network did make some headway at SBC, despite the loss of their candidate Mike Stone for President. While that poor pick lost his race, their choice for Vice President, Lee Brand, won his contest. Historically, SBC’s VP stands in a good position to be tapped for President in the next election. So, don’t count the CBN out yet.
I’m very interested in your saying you would’ve voted for him Dee. From the things I had read, it sounded as though Litton supported CRT and the like and I do not think those things are biblical at all. Also I would’ve thought he was the more woke candidate which I thought we all agreed wasn’t a good direction. So I was disappointed in this decision, but I am not nearly as well studied as you on the topic. I think it’s a crisis that it’s so difficult to get truth in journalism and everyone writes from their personal biases it seems (referring to most articles I could find on candidates). Anyway, I’m glad you are in favor, but surprised because the things I had read weren’t good IMO.
Yeah, Dr. Mohler was being referred to as moderate by some of the pirates as well. Made me look down at my cider to check its ABV.
The only way to classify either of them that was is to completely shift the Overton window.
Just like the Wahabi (including the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and al-Daesh/ISIS) were the right and sole keepers of the One True Islam As It Was in The Days of the Prophet. (Including the Inerrant SCRIPTURE of the Koran and the Beauty of Islamic Complementarianism.)
When Christianity goes sour, it curdles into something resembling Islam.
Luckyforward,
Given your background, what do you think will happen at the 2022 meeting? I have to admit that I’m surprised that Stone got so many votes. I thought the leaked audios might do him in.
Luckyforward,
You just asnwered my question. There will be trouble next year.I suspected that there might be a a tiff.
Muff Potter,
I agree. That basically said “We disagree. Let’s stop fighting and form two groups. I find my pastor fairly relaxed when it comes to denominational and political matters. They pray for all and that God’s will be done. They make sure the service lasts 1 hour…will actually they get things wrapped in 59 minutes. They impress me with their careful structure.
My daughter and her fiancee are meeting with my pastor tomorrow. He will be doing their service at Duke Chapel. He seemed pleased to get a chance to preside in that magnificent building. My daughter really likes him so thin should be a good time.
I believe they will only try this if they believe they can get enough people to Anaheim. In one sense, the expense of the location (travel, hotels, etc.) might shield the convention from an attempted take-over.
Lowlandseer,
Thank you for the link. I read the article. It makes some good points. However, it overlooks a problem that I have seen in my many years of being in the church and caring about doctrine and teaching.
There are many pastors who do not handle the issue of headship well. Way too many pastors in churches (and there are many, many churches) have been poorly educated (and I don’t care which seminary.) They get an idea in their heads. For example, they read Mark Driscoll or Doug Wilson. They rant and rave on the subject, demanding that men are *in charge* according to the Bible.
They then teach stupid things like “God wants you to stay with your abusive husband for His glory.” It happens all too frequently and I get the emails.
I don’t care if it is an Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc. We all fall short of the glory of God and therefore can teach things that fall short of the glory of God.
That’s why I am doing what I do. It’s time for all sects to admit their failings and get the doctrine right so that women and men and children are not abused.
Perhaps it would be a good idea if all denominations and independent churches, no matter their view on headship, produce a document outlining what is taught by that group when it comes to abuse, headship, etc. Pin that document up on a wall and say “If your church doesn’t believe this and teach this, you are at risk.”
I think its time for all groups to admit their failings. At this very moment, their are conservative Baptist men who lean towards Calvinism hanging pirate flags on their churches. I swear these men are nuts.
Dan Davis,
I have also been of that opinion. I believe that a bunch of them will leave and become nondenomintional. It’s already happening. The CBN groups will probably break off and form their own group and call it “The One and Only True Baptist Church.”
Others will remain and overlook all their differences. Point of fact: No matter what the SBC believes about women preachers, Saddleback will NOT be thrown out of the convention.
Finally, I can’t wait to see what happens with Mohler and SBTS. In the coming years. About 8 years ago, he said the most important doctrine that would be stressed is YEC. He dropped that like a hot potato. He didn’t realize some of his friends were TE. There is thehoopla surrounding the biblical counseling movement which has produced a whole group of *incompetent to counsel.” There’s the Calvinism thing which has also caused some problems. CBN is nipping on his heels. He placed third in the elections! He will respond in some way.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Agreed.
No question about this.
Ava Aaronson,
Read those two books. They show how there is a mixup of political power with the faith. Jeff is a good guy and he has been slammed by “the faithful.”
I overlooked that. I shall tweet it out.
Hyper-Calvinism drives everyone nuts after awhile. The New Calvinists have certainly done their share of pirating in the SBC. “Pirate flags” are being raised across the country as they capture church after church for the movement. They would never be accused of hanging the banner of Christ over those churches.
dee,
https://conservativebaptistnetwork.com/statement-conservative-baptist-network-endorsement-dr-lee-brand-1st-vp-and-javier-chavez-2nd-vp/
P.S. I noted that one of my comments has not been posted … probably because I mentioned the political “T” and “B” words … I apologize, if that’s the case.
CBN will be back next year . . . in force. Everything that the SBC says and does in the next year will become fodder for next year.
They did not make a video such as this to not stay in the game: https://vimeo.com/560861709
Muff–Lutherans did not just split into two groups and move on. When the ELCA took a hard left hand turn, many left Lutheranism. Many more just relocated to the LCMS, yes or even over to WELS or ELS, but all of those were too much of a right hand turn to many. And so were born the NALC, the LCMC, some tiny splinter groups, some independents, and few returned to Hauge Lutheranism privately. And many of those groups are quite bitter towards the other groups, and the infighting can get quite nasty.
But all of these issues are being discussed and argued on the basis of “I believe” or “I want” or “people will reject” or “people will want.” That is, decisions are being made in a political manner whether or not politics are discussed. That is to say, based on what will keep or draw the largest number of butts and bucks.
When the church as a whole decides to ditch that paradigm and embrace honestly seeking out what the Lord has said in His Word and teaching that come hell or high water, whether or not it ticks off the ultra right or the ultra left, whether it is woke or sound asleep, we might get a real revival. Not one that grows churches, but one that grows Christians. But to get there, we have to ditch our worldview that the church is somehow in the “being popular” business.
We serve a leader who warned us the world would hate us. And yet we circle the drain endlessly either going left or going right trying to please people.
I forget who said it, but Jesus didn’t come to make us popular but to make us alive. Or as my Pastor Kevin used to teach, “Why are we surprised when dead people stink?” All people, churched and unchurched, are dead in their sins unless they are saved. (And yes, salvation should change your trajectory.)
So rather than waste our time debating complementarianism and critical race theory, neglecting the job of the church which is evangelism, why not get busy with what we are assigned to do? Truly saved people just don’t go around raping, abusing, being racist, or whatever. That is lostness showing up.
My prayer for the SBC is that they stop being like the Jews in Jesus time, looking for a political savior to fix the government and make people behave properly, and go back to the aim of seeing those dead without Christ made alive. That would paradoxically fix the world anyway.
There’s a fair bit of money involved now, too, since the New Calvinists have restructured the entities. And I suspect, a lot less goes to foreign missions even though that is really the primary reason for a convention. But as the finances are not released anymore, the SBC itself is an institution and not a convention of autonomous churches with shared missions.
Litton appears to be a nice guy … but he is just President of the SBC … Mohler remains Pope of the SBC! Presidents come and go; Popes usually remain for life.
I’m delighted, Dee, to get your perspective! Litton, “moderate,” my ass! Thanks for taking down the Times, the Post, and all the others who got fooled by nice guy Litton.
SBC 1st VPs this century, I believe just two have run for President the next year (Jerry Sutton, lost; Fred Luter, won). Ted Traylor ran a decade later and lost, and Ed Litton ran two decades later, and won.
’00 Ted Traylor, ’01 Ed Litton, ’02 Paul Pressler, ’03 Rob Zinn, ’04 Gerald Davidson, ’05 Jerry Sutton, ’06 Jimmy Jackson, ’07 Jim Richards, ’08 Bill Henard, ’09 John Mark Toby, ’10 Ron Herrod, ’11 Fred Luter, ’12 Nathan Lino, ’13 Bart Barber, ’14 Clint Pressley, ’15 Steve Dighton, ’16 Doug Munton, ’17 Walter Strickland, ’18 A.B. Vines, ’19 Marshal Ausberry, ’21 Lee Brand
The primary “power” available to the office of SBC President is the ability to make key appointments at various SBC entities. This usually results in a theological or theo-political trend within SBC that could last for years … until the next movement comes along. Other than that, the President just tours the SBC Kingdom making speeches and forming alliances for pet projects. Hopefully, Litton will use his short time in office to make some positive difference, but reversing years of SBC negatives will prove difficult for him.
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. I remember vividly J.D. Greear (the last SBC President) “weeping” over news about SBC sex abuse … but when you look closely at the video, he was crying without tears.
Plate a grain burger and an all-beef hamburger. Which one is the real deal?
Compare any spiritual leader to Jesus, the plumb line, the real deal.
Jesus never promoted himself, never stood on a stage above others, never did a money collection, never placed himself at the head of the table. Jesus’ grand finale, rising from dead, became news to attending women as he passed through a garden. No fireworks, no front page, no headlines.
LCMS doesn’t ordain women pastors either..
Personally, I’ll order the fish and chips plate over the burger plate any day of the week and six-ways to Sunday.
And I support their God-given right to not do so as their conscience dictates.
Which is why I attend an ELCA congregation that does ordain women to the pastorate.
Jim Bakker could also cry on cue.
A subtle deception by most fast-food chains. Which simply means that the small percentage of beef in their burgers is all-beef.
dee,
… reads the room.
“‘Moderate’ … Elected SBC President”
Luckyforward,
“Just how “conservative” is “conservative?””
++++++++++++
enough to make ‘me’ the savior and stoke feelings of terror in the electorate towards ‘my’ satanic opponent.
pathetic
and pathetic that so many are so easily led by propaganda.
although this is old news
Exactly . . . and while church attendance in the United States continues to drop, the SBC gives people ample reason to stay at home on Sunday mornings . . .
Gin,
“From the things I had read, it sounded as though Litton supported CRT and the like and I do not think those things are biblical at all. Also I would’ve thought he was the more woke candidate which I thought we all agreed wasn’t a good direction.”
++++++++++++++++++
so, your chosen version of ‘biblical’ is the only right one?
what happens to those who have different interpretations? are they vulnerable targets for one of those acts of God that insurance policies talk about? are they nixed from the Lamb’s Book of Life?
and who is “we all”?
(honest questions, for which i’d really appreciate honest answers)
I think Mohler is probably in shell shock after losing. After positioning himself politically with Trump endorsement and theologically with the hardline CRT stance, he mostly likely thought he was a lock for the SBC presidency. Has the once boy wonder lost his touch? It will be interesting to watch his maneuvering over the next weeks and months.
… and create their systems, cults, dynasties, like their mentors (recognized names & shining entities: DG, SG, Kirke, et al.)
Power/control, manipulate, dominate, authoritate.
“Manipulators:
– oversimplify
– refocus in ways that favor themselves
– use exaggerated vocabulary
– project (their own concerns onto the world)
– find *evidence* to support their preconceptions (misappropriate Scripture)
– interpret through the lens of their own inner selves, subtlety
“Manipulation techniques do not usually emerge from malicious intent. They occur because of deep emotional dysregulation, coupled with insufficient coping skills.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/i-hear-you/201806/15-things-manipulative-people-do-try-control-you
Summary: there are occasions when church is all about an ill-prepared but entitled pastor controlling participants, all about a pastor’s needs, however subtlety expressed. This happens.
Ideal, from Jesus, the plumb line: Love God, Love (not control/manipulate/dominate, NOT ORCHESTRATING SEX by a youth worker or pastor) others (including women & children) as yourself.
Nondenom can be good, depending on their following (or not) of Jesus.
Nondenom can be the Wild West where anything goes, or highly *Love God/Love Others as Self* faithful.
Nondenoms can change as leadership changes.
IMHO, denom implies an org, a network, growth in numbers. Franchises with consistent message, practice, tradition.
The first churches were nondenom. They are identified by location.
As they should be now, IMHO. The do everything-by-the-Bible boys ought to know that.
Nah, he didn’t miss a beat. He lost his run for SBC President, but he still holds the keys to the SBC Kingdom.
He was busy today promoting his new book. In a tweet this afternoon: “I’m excited to let you know that my latest book, The Gathering Storm, is now available in Spanish …”
He’s excited, not depressed.
How would you define these terms, please?
LOL. Prolly on a to-do list somewhere, among other items.
It is interesting here in Nashville to look at the websites for all the “nondenominational” churches that get started here. The theology is the same: Neo-Cal. No matter the difference in church names, church staff, etc., Neo-Cal values drive the bus.
A final thought and this Tennessean (Go Vols!) will be quiet.
During the 26 years I served as a church staff member and pastor, the role I loved the most is the one you just do not hear about today in churches: the role of “shepherd.” I loved visiting my folks in the hospital. I made it a point to see all my shut-ins three times a year. Weddings were okay, but to minister to the hurting during funerals brought me a deep sense of meaning and purpose. I think I was a pretty good preacher, but I was excellent at pastoral care. And I believe it was through pastoral care I EARNED the right to preach to the congregations I served.
In the current SBC, when is the last time you have heard anything about pastoral care, because preaching is now ALL.THAT.MATTERS. because it is how you influence people to get them to believe as you want them to believe.
What about the Word of Faith crazies? They’re out in force here in rural NC. I’d say maybe Nashville is too sophisticated for them, but some of the biggest, craziest Word of Faith megas are in large cities!
OK, I am out of the loop. What is the significance of pirate flags? Are the New Cals signalling that they’ve captured those churches, as though churches were Spanish galleons?
Genuinely flummoxed.
donate $$$.
Church is a business model.
LOL. Johnny Depp on the high seas. Film worthy. Sunday morning matinee.
Luckyforward,
“because preaching is now ALL.THAT.MATTERS. because it is how you influence people to get them to believe as you want them to believe.”
+++++++++++++++++++
that’s funny…. if they only knew how many people use that time to zone out, mentally checked out, daydream, or make to-do lists just to get through it.
i doubt there are many people who actually want to be talked at for any length of time, especially one that is too long.
but apparently that’s all that’s on offer.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
My observation is, that “word of faith” and “neocal” or “neo con” are the same, but they pretend to be opposites to facilitate pincer movements. Fake priesthood of believers, and sadly, predominantly fake “Holy” spirit. Power that is no power, because they sneaked the real stuff of God away.
The knack is, to subliminally introduce little hints (pirate flags) that sound quite nice and trendy but don’t jar to the unenquiring ear and short memory. After all we wouldn’t want women to do various (actually) atrocious things (which they weren’t about to do anyway) would we? After all we wouldn’t want to “be accused” of not believing that some sort of alleged “miracles” don’t happen around churches, what would that do for our sales appeal? And isn’t “consumery trad” so “respectful”!
Eternal subjection of the son Long, and the son Piper, and the son Ortberg, unto the IV generation = blasphemy of Holy Spirit.
“I will not suffer a woman to teach” (in his context of “teach”) was Paul’s personal tactical discernment when there WAS no Christian doctrine except what they thought they remembered of deeper meanings Jesus had tried to give them. Crucially, the dominant theme was superficial and based on rigid Judaism of the time.
Roman society kept women in different channels. Husbands never talked to their wives hence wives were asking basic questions in the middle of sermons. Paul’s extant letters are almost the longest remaining of any from the period and almost all reply to specific queries. They always got read by non-addressees en route. “The” women is stronger than our definite article (“those”), not weaker (generalising).
Nowadays, “teaching” sadly means something entirely different from what Paul was doing, salt that has lost its saltness, grapes that set our teeth on edge. If actual priesthood of believers should ever get honestly readmitted to churches, whether Roman or of any brand name, women and men, girls and boys alike will be co-interpreting true meanings in Scripture (like a few laity and children, that have been declared Venerable or Blessed, already did).
Sadly, fundamentalists don’t think Scripture, or any words, are supposed to have any meaning, because the word is the thing (the world has now copied that). Supposing Beth Moore had written against Eternal Subjection Of The Son and against blasphemy of Holy Spirit, would that book be admitted to the “product range” of the “permitted wholesalers”? If a bloke had written it there would be some huffing and puffing (water it down in the next 9 sequels).
After the battering from bad amplifying (“wasn’t that anointed”). Amos 5: “stop your din”.
Now’s our chance to pray that all will be strengthened in vigilance. “Can any good thing come from a carpenter’s son from Galilee / a vertically-challenged licensed extortioner (as in Ancien Regime) / Syrian dogs / renegade disciple of Hillel?” Blessed if we don’t join the ranks of the scorners. Whatever some of them were up till now, how much longer should we call them rogue (= raca).
One move was to involve a probably unsuited company. But there is also a second move afoot?
God’s good angels will try to jog the elbows of church politicians (and secular) right (according to the merits in His foresight) (and that includes staying their hand), if we ask our Father. These might be too preoccupied to know what they are doing till they’ve done it * . May there be genuine inspiration, a genuine miracle in the Church, again! (The same is being faced in every denomination in every country currently.) I regret despairing, now.
{ very different from the ad hominem atmosphere that surrounds / -ed a former President, a “new Churchill”, as good as a Pope, as good as “woke”, and such personages: EVEN if they are the same individuals as before. WWSPD = … St Paul … }
Re nondenoms: in my neck of the woods those are all Word of Faith charismatics. Some seem pretty tame, others……gold glitter from the ceiling, anyone?
Here in SoCal, “nondenominational” means Calvary Chapel Clone.
“There is no ‘Christ’. There is only CALVIN.”
“YO HO!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhwW-mgdD-M
And the other name of “the pirate flag”?
THE DEATH’S HEAD.
As in “WE are Death”, “Death Is Coming”.
Also somehow appropriate.
No actual flags. Just a way of saying that the New Calvinists are stealing (pirating) churches through stealth and deception.
New Calvinists, in general, would not be considered “pastors” in the true sense of that word. The SBC-YRR church planters in my area hang out together at the coffee shops. They don’t visit in the homes of their members, they don’t go to hospitals, they don’t comfort folks in nursing homes, they don’t preach funerals … in short, they don’t pastor. But, they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away and borrow sermons from each other to preach ALL.THAT.MATTERS … without ever mattering to the lives they preach to.
This is news to me. Word of Faith types don’t even seem to have a clear theology, afaik. They even steep into Gnostic thinking unawares (in the sense of having special gnosis and degrees of anointing). Something a Calvinist wouldn’t do, but Word of Faith can’t help themselves.
I can’t blame them specifically for this. Their products of their culture. Maybe even some of you won’t enjoy hearing this, but a lot of Evangelicals prop up preaching or scriptural teaching as the only office left in the church. The entire culture is centered on teachers and laity/listeners. The Pulpit is the center of church life. Maybe they do it unawares. Not sure. Methodists and Anglicans to a lesser extant are the exception, but they’re not Evangelicals really.
Not quite correct. Lutheranism in the US was to a great degree originally language based (German speaking Lutherans congregated, Norwegian speaking Lutherans congregated, etc.) with some theological divisions. As the immigrants merged with the general population the various separate synods started merging (and also sometimes splitting). The ELCA is the latest and largest of the merging and founded in 1988 by a merger of three groups. LCMS has always been on its own and was founded by German speaking immigrants and in particular a group from Saxony led by Martin Stephan who emigrated because they disagreed with the state church. In the 1970s a group of LCMS split off (including many/most of the professors and students at Concordia Seminary (look up Seminex)) and eventually became one of the groups that merged to form the ELCA.
I have three Protestant megachurches within two miles of my house. One is a Hillsong franchise, one is a Word of Faith church, and one is non-denominational. (These numbers do not include the large Catholic parish which would be a megachurch if Catholic churches were that sort of thing, or any of the Mormon congregations, which are deliberately kept fairly small and people can’t go where they want.) The founding pastor of the WoF church declared bankruptcy at one point but gee, nobody talks about it. They have gotten away from being on the WoF preaching circuit but now that COVID is (kinda sorta mostly) over, I expect to see the Creflo Dollars and Jesse Duplantises of the WooFers coming through again.
The church once got a protest from me years and years ago when they allowed for campaign signs for a city council person to be posted on their property. They took down the signs, I stopped protesting. Don’t do that people.
The founding pastor has turned the reins over to his sons, one of whom is pastor at the mega here, and the other is pastor at the mega they’ve set up in Ahwatukee. Oh, and they snarfed up a third location in Gilbert through a merger. I don’t even know how that works out, but I’m sure everyone is making money.
Have I mentioned that Gateway (Robert Morris, Texas) has two franchise outfits here (Scottsdale, Chandler)?
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Is the area, like, Upper-Crust? 1% neighborhoods or something? It seems to be that type of area where the mega (mega-money) outfits want to be, like, their kind of demographic. Grand collection$. Church planting nowadays seems to flow in that direction.
In our area, the mega outfits compete to circle the outer corridors (way out) of the City with their satellites planted in each suburb. Definitely not interested in the blue collar or even lower class, the more financially challenged neighborhoods.
BTW, thanks for your work in picketing and protesting. God bless you!
and a venti latte.
Erp,
The US and Canada also have Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, or WELS. This synod still believes that the pope is the antichrist.
We have relatives in a WELS congregation. I think women are allowed to work in the nursery (diapers, you know), but that’s about it. Men are the only members authorized to dust, mop, and vacuum the church building, even though in their homes the women do all the cleaning.
In a broad and general sense, my original statement is correct, but nonetheless, you offer some fascinating historical details.
I grew up in the Southeast corner of Wisconsin, town of Racine, which has also been called little Denmark.
I have an old Lutheran hymnal (Concordia Publishing House 1941) with many of the hymns showing their original German names and what Scriptures they’re drawn from.
The point is that the Germanic and Scandinavian peoples who brought Lutheranism to the Great Lakes region, are vastly different in social and cultural mores than the Scots-Irish who settled the South and developed the Southern Baptist tradition.
Sounds more like Wahhabi Islam than the Lutheranism I grew up in.
When my Mom went to Luther College years ago, she said there was a pecking order depending on if you were full-blooded Norwegian or not (she wasn’t).
No, east Mesa is pretty solidly middle class with a few outlying subdivisions which might fall into the upper crust category. West Mesa is more middle/lower class. Scottsdale is where you plant your church if you want upper crust. If you want upper middle class, Ahwatukee is also where you go. (It’s Phoenix, but it’s on the south side of the South Mountain Park and Preserve, which separates it from South Phoenix, aka “the hood.”) The further north you go in Scottsdale, the more upper crust you are. Mark Driscoll’s church is not even really in the upper crust area of Scottsdale, it’s more middle class.
This area was originally settled by Mormons and still retains that flavor; however I suspect the largest single religious group here is now Catholic. The Mesa temple (as opposed to wards, congregational buildings) is *just* outside the two mile radius from my house. That said, there’s been a lot of Mormon flight to further out suburbs like Gilbert and Queen Creek.
And you’re right, these church planters are not planting in South Phoenix or West Mesa. Nope, nope, nope, nopity nope.
I suspect that Driskle would be viewed more as an amusement to the upper-crust than as a serious contender for collection plate dollars.
Driskie
Like bank robbers, they hit where the money is.
They are a Privileged Priesthood.
Max, wasn’t Clericalism and Priestcraft one of the Reformeers BIG beefs about the RCC?
Theology or Suerstition-turned-Sorcery, divorced from even folk-magic traditions?
In local gaming/fandom circles, we used to call gamers like that “Macters of Mighty Magick”.
It was NOT a complement.
Like Orthodoxy with its ethnic consecrations – Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc?
Re: One possible significance of the pirate flag….
Some references that started from Dee’s Twitter feed (located at the right of the TWW blog – I don’t actually “do” Twitter). Allen S. Nelson IV receiving some pirate themed merchandise. (Allen S. Nelson IV is listed as an author on the Founders Ministries website.)
https://twitter.com/cuatronelson/status/1394108990460727298
https://twitter.com/cuatronelson
And on the pinned tweet is “Take the Ship. #SBC21 #sbc2021”
The last two paragraphs in The New York Times article (linked to from Dee’s OP):
I take it these guys think they are equal to Jesus’ apostles….
From The Washington Post article (linked to from Dee’s OP):
So headship and submission will still reign….(see the following quote).
From the Binghampton Homepage article (linked to from Dee’s OP):
And in abusive families “From time to time, every family has disagreements and tensions….Because we’re a family, we don’t give up on one another.” can be a Pious Platitude intended to keep people in abusive circumstances. (And in the end, the abuser(s) almost always win….)
From time to time?! Good Lord, Southern Baptist factions have been at each other’s throats for decades!!
This is the language of threat. This is not hyperbole.
If he expects to be martyred, 1) he is implying that someone is going to take his life, 2) there will be a physical battle of some kind.
These folks need to stop.
As I see it, the people we call or who call themselves Calvinists (who probably don’t resemble most of the early Catholic Reformed very closely) have lost touch with the meanings of teachings so they kid themselves and their followers because they claim to have some. The same happened in the RC, sadly. I’ve been to so many of these outfits and I no longer notice the surface differences.
Rod Martin, of SBC’s Conservative Baptist Network and Founders Ministries, is a strange one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreF0s8MeB8
What happened in one of the outfits I’m still close to is that bustling types now tell those of us who aren’t impressed with their so called “reforms” that never quite get spelled out, that it is us deep steady types that are the party poopers. In the “dialectic” of Gramsci a continual series of unfortunate events and so-called counter events ensures business. They “forgot” to teach us to pray so we don’t realise God could help us to help them snap out of it. If we were Bereans, we wouldn’t await further permission to pray.
And that he has discerned that he is right.
Anyway, aside from what foresight Jesus had, none of them knew the world around them wouldn’t simmer down for a few years, or that they mightn’t get new ideas (through their peers by Holy Spirit guidance). Paul took a gamble, appeal or no appeal.
Thus this man is also implying he sees better than Jesus. And Jesus never talked like this to anyone.
He is out for some kind of “material dialectic”.
Right. Jesus is supposedly on his side, and his foes supposedly want to martyr him. This gives him, and all who agree with him, tacit or explicit permission to take their lives.
Every last one of us needs to listen for language that dehumanizes.
Whew! This guy is typical of SBC leadership … he has power through wealth and influence. Add to that problem, he is a darling of the Founders Ministries … and that whole bunch can be extremely arrogant, mean-spirited and controlling. The Conservative Baptist Network is off to a bad start.
Fortunately, Martin lost his bid for reelection to the “powerful” SBC Executive Committee. Nobody should have any power in religious circles other than Jesus, but He’s outside looking in these days … His authority and influence is waning.
Max,
Hmm, Rod Martin says, “We are here to the death!” and, “We will not stop.”
Rod Martin also posts YouTube video (hat tip to Max) about Davy Crockett at the Alamo, mentioning Martin’s ancestor’s role. He mentions “the martyrdom of the heroes of the Alamo.”
THIS IS BAD. This siege mentality can lead to actual, real-life violence based on fantasies about the Alamo. Self defense is often the fig leaf, but here the enemy is the American public, and national sovereignty is not at stake.
Nobody wants to end Martin’s life. Folks just want the SBC to listen and change.
One thing I like about Lutheranism is it avoids the either/or of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Paradoxes are more readily accepted. I think in Lutheranism there is a more realistic view, an acceptance that we cannot understand every detail of what seem to be paradoxes.
I grew up in what became the ELCA. The ELCA and LCMS have both drifted to the left and right, respectively. My “issues” would not allow me to be comfortable in either church as they exist nowadays.
= Founders Ministries
= Conservative Baptist Network
= New Calvinism
The traditional SBC (what’s left of it) is under siege.
LA Times reporter does not call the CBN gang “conservative”. She calls them “Ultraconservative”
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-06-15/southern-baptist-convention-nashville
Ahhhh … an “Ultraconservative Resurgence”
From the article: “thousands of churches in the Southern Baptist Convention have joined the Conservative Baptist Network”
I don’t know about that number. Southern Baptists are famous for stretching numbers … SBC claims 16 million members – try finding them!
If traditional grassroot Southern Baptists wanted to take the SBC back from Mohler, they sure picked a bunch of goobers to lead the charge.
My family is privileged to be excommunicated from WELS.
They excommunicated my whole family because my grandfather didn’t tithe from the hospital on his death bed. It was a very small town, so they knew where he was…
Also, the WELS church where I used to live had one of those changeable signs, and they posted the most atrocious things on it. Like “If you don’t come here, you’re going to hell” and stuff like that.
ishy,
I’m so sorry. That’s horrible.
Wow. That’s some pastoral care – “Pay up or we’ll excommunicate you!” Dealing with a difficult family situation and being treated in a hateful way by the church at the same time, horrible.
I think something similar happened in my dad’s family. They lived in a town about an hour away. But nobody will talk about it, so I’m not sure what happened.
Frankly, I think them getting out of that sounds like a good thing. Kinda the way I see getting excommunicated from a New Calvinist church. I was a baby when that happened with my mom’s family, so it didn’t make much impression on me, but it was a long time before my mom would go back to church. And my grandmother would start ranting if I mentioned visiting a church while visiting her.
Some church folks are among the meanest people on the planet.
Extortion with the Great White Throne as The Enforcer/Threat.
Some even say it flat out: “GIVE ME MONEY OR GOD! WILL! KILL! YOU!”
“Among”?
Just like Scientology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8V7TwlYCt0
Sounds a lot like Guilani on January 6th.
Your family sent you some warning signals, even if they were not specific.
Unfortunately, silence lets bad actors find more victims. (You already know this, but some do not.)
All the way back to the days of their Peculiar Institution regarding Certain Animate Property.
One thing I’ve noticed recently is that my (athiest) dad says favorable things about female pastors, that he feels they are better preachers and have more integrity. His family was United Brethren (which joined the UMC). So I find that interesting, because it’s very much a reversal from the SBC.
Too bad that most of the organized church is missing out on this truth.
ishy,
It’s wonderful that your dad feels that way, and I would not question his experience.
My own experience: within a mainline denomination that has ordained women for decades, women don’t have a lock on integrity or preaching skill (and neither do men). Our local parishes do make a deliberate effort to include more people who have been traditionally excluded from the power structure, and entirely from the church.
If high-demand congregations eventually collapse under the weight of self-inflicted burdens, I hope that more moderate and inclusive churches will still be around for people to find.