Fledgling Stars in Stellar Nursery-NASA
“It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor.” Seneca
Jerry Falwell Jr. gets sued by Liberty University
I was waiting for this to happen. Jerry and his wife got away with lots of money taken from the school. This was the school his father loved and the school Junior is trying to ruining. NPR wrote Liberty University Sues Ex-President Jerry Falwell, Jr., Seeking Millions In Damages
Liberty University is suing former president Jerry Falwell Jr. for millions of dollars, accusing him of withholding damaging personal information from school officials while negotiating a lucrative employment agreement for himself, among other allegations.
The civil suit was filed Thursday in the Lynchburg Circuit Court in Virginia, and alleges breach of contract and fiduciary duty as well as statutory conspiracy. It is seeking $10 million in compensatory damages, which could potentially be tripled under state law, in addition to punitive damages and the return of phones, computers and other property belonging to the school.
Here is a link to the 74-page complaint.
In the meantime, Falwell says it is all lies and defamation.
n a statement to NPR, Falwell denounced the lawsuit as “yet another attempt to defame me and discredit my record.”
“Throughout all my years at the University, where we built a multi-billion-dollar enterprise that reaches Christian’s worldwide, I always abided by the requirements that applied to everyone on the University staff,” he added. “This lawsuit is full of lies and half truths, and I assure you that I will defend myself against it with conviction.”
Jerry, we saw the pictures and heard the stories. Is it defamation or merely an inconvenient truth?
Margie Zacharias breaks her silence. Is she mad that she is getting *kicked out of her house?*
Julie Roys reported this in Margie Zacharias Breaks Silence, Defends Ravi
In an email to her extended family, Margie Zacharias defended her husband, saying that after searching through all of Ravi Zacharias’ personal belongings, she did not find anything “suspicious . . . absolutely nothing to support the claims being made or the charges against him.”
She added: “He could never have kept a secret like they are alleging (alleging, I say, as there is not one whit of evidence to support what they are saying). At the very least, with all the medication he was on at the end and his hallucinations something would have come out.”
She claims she is getting kicked out of the house “that was promised to her.” According to Roys:
As The Roys Report reported in October, the house in which Ravi and Margie Zacharias lived was bought in 2018 by an LLC managed by an RZIM executive. RZIM’s 990s also state that RZIM provided a “housing allowance or residence for personal use” to Ravi and Margie Zacharias.
The entire letter was apparently posted on the Facebook page of Friends who like Ravi Zacharias. This is a private Facebook group and appears to have 30.9 thousand members! They refer to Zacharias as “Sir Ravi.”
Dave Ramsey and COVID: Will prayer, instead of masks, protect his employees from COVID?
Religion News Service reports that Former employee sues Dave Ramsey’s company for alleged religious discrimination, ‘cult-like’ atmosphere
According to Bob Smietana:
The lawsuit claims employees have to submit to Ramsey as a spiritual leader and agree with his views on COVID-19, with no questions allowed.
…The company owned by Christian personal finance advisor and radio host Dave Ramsey is being sued for alleged religious discrimination and misrepresentation.
A complaint filed Thursday in a county court alleges that the Lampo Group, which does business as Ramsey Solutions, was run as a “religious cult,” and required employees to give “complete and total submission to Dave Ramsey and his views of the world to maintain employment.”
Brad Amos, the complainant, alleges:
that Ramsey’s views on the pandemic are largely shaped by religion and that Amos was fired for disagreeing with those religious views.
…The company also held a mostly maskless, in-person Christmas party and has sued a Florida hotel for breach of contract, after the hotel said it would require attendees at a Ramsey conference to wear masks.
…“Plaintiff was terminated for failing to follow Defendant’s particular view that taking precautions other than prayer against COVID infection would make a person fall out of God’s favor,” the complaint states.
…“Plaintiff was terminated for failing to follow Defendant’s particular view that taking precautions other than prayer against COVID infection would make a person fall out of God’s favor,” the complaint states.
…Amos’s wife and son are at high risk for complications of COVID-19, Street said, and his requests to work at home were denied, Street said. The lawsuit alleges that any concerns about COVID-19 were dismissed as “weakness of spirit” and that the spouses of company employees were required to support Ramsey’s views on COVID.
Ramsey is having none of it. He owns his employees.
Ramsey has boasted of his company’s code of conduct, which includes a “righteous living” core value, and his ability to control the personal lives of employees.
“I’ve got a right to tell my employees whatever I want to tell them,” he said in a Q&A segment about the company code posted on the company website. “They freaking work for me.”
And lest I forget, Ramsey claims the complaints were lies, and more lies, sounding a bit like Jerry Falwell Jr.
In response to the lawsuit, Ramsey Solutions said in an email it is “full of blatantly false allegations that have no merit.” The organization accused Amos of “inflammatory and false statements”
And that’s enough for now.
1
“Lies, lies, lies!”
+++++++++++++++
so, the commonality amongst all these nincompoops is they are used to getting their own way, and when finally challenged with the word “no” they have a kicking, fist-pounding temper tantrum.
elastigirl,
That just about sums it up!
elastigirl,
That’s about the size of it elastigirl.
The only thing I’d add is that said nincompoops are also convinced that their poop don’t stink.
“Friends Who Like Ravi Zacharias”
I see another bench in the works.
There would be no room in Christendom for folks like Falwell, Ramsey, and Zacharias if it weren’t for gullible followers who finance them.
Max,
You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIAXG_QcQNU
Muff Potter,
they are fully responsible for their behavior. but ‘gosh darn it’ screwed-up evangelical culture created these monsters. enabled it all.
elastigirl,
watch them sue evangelical culture now. “i blame the culture!”
The machine – whoever really controlled it and whoever was its pawns – and I suspect Margie (trapped by ethnic dutifulness) is more like the latter – was, deliberately, hugely irresponsibly run.
Nathan is right to argue that the blame for this worldwide scale soul trafficking is largely to be shared by big names who got themselves put up front, at the influential camps and conferences, like Orr Ewing and Lennox (more Oxford incidentally).
Being clever intellectuals those two – even if they don’t know anything about the Gospel – know full well American religious “charities” are NOT kept to any standard. I don’t know why Nathan stayed in the firm but seeing as he did so, it is interesting to note what he is saying.
Planned-in ingredient for the designer unravelling: widow being thrown out of her home – by the machinators NOT by discerning readers or the masseuses.
Nathan says his dad wanted to retire due to bad health and his machinators strongarmed him into continuing, but not why.
Gramscian stealing of hegemony / ratchet mechanism plus Girardian replication of the victim mentality = sacred melodrama = Dharma Calvinism = Empire Bites Back.
Did the names of the trustees ever get published? As for Naomi she had no reason not to completely disconnect her own charity work from it.
Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
While I am far, far from achieving this goal, I am also not going around claiming to be some “Christian leader”… I am just some pew peon that believes we should hold each other accountable for our behavior…and the standard is pretty high!
Muff Potter,
The robotics and the discordances in that scene are so clever. Launder your soul in your own space and time. Never outsource individual integrity (especially not your family members’ or your subordinates’) to the “designer-outlet christianity” or “designer-outlet nihilism” jagganauth, nor to emissaries of some high-status luminous personality.
Give us a King!
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
Jesus who?! Christ has little authority and influence in the American church. The center of our faith has slipped out of the circle.
Re: “Plaintiff was terminated for failing to follow Defendant’s particular view that taking precautions other than prayer against COVID infection would make a person fall out of God’s favor,”
—
I believe that in original context, the 3rd commandment, “you shall not misuse the name of YHWH your god, for YWHW will not hold guiltless anyone who misuses his name” was concerned primarily with oaths deceptively taken in the name of YHWH in order to manipulate people (for example to deceive a judge or to induce someone to make a loan that one did not intend to repay). The concern was that YHWH not be invoked as accessory to injustice.
That sort of thing can still happen today, but it seems to me that this kind of language, that “YHWH will be displeased if you don’t do things my way” also is a form of “misuse of the Name.”
Otherwise known as taking God’s name in vain. There’s been an outbreak of that in pulpits across America where man is really on the throne, not God.
I’m wondering whether there is a typo or misunderstanding on the “Sir Ravi” item. “Shri” or “Sri” is a polite form of address in many south Asia areas equivalent to “Mr.” in English. I can easily see someone mistaking “Sri” for “Sir” or making a typo while trying to type “Sri”. I would not build much on it unless there is clearer evidence he was trying to claim a knighthood.
In any case the real “Sir Ravi” was at Stanford 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAIPL5O9Uwk
SBC seminarians now receive a little white pill from Al Mohler upon graduation which ensures that won’t happen.
Nah, twas’ twinkies done it!
I am glad it is being noted here that this is not just a problem with hyper-prophetic people making up stuff that God is apparently saying in “prophecies,” but is also very popular with even men like John Mac. Even Cessationists frequently claim to be speaking truth for God. Logically speaking, even the theology itself is a claim to be speaking for God that supersedes what is written in the texts by the Apostles. Anybody preaching who gets far away from the original texts in their original context is going out on a limb and is risking effectively adding to God’s Word. Those who fear God will try hard not to do this, period. Using the name of God to leverage control over others is certainly a great sin and one that makes many other sins very possible.
Can we join you on that pew? Need more responsible pew peons in the Kingdom, it seems.
Perhaps Jesus is our one true leader. In our midst we have facilitators and organizers and administrators, fellow peons. Those who rise above the level ground at the foot of the Cross are no longer at the foot of the Cross. Note to self: do not follow them outside the fellowship of Jesus as our Leader. What’s the point of gaining the world while losing one’s fellowship with Jesus…
No, it’s “ALL FAKE NEWS!! LIBRUL MEDIA LIES!!!!! FROM THE PIT OF HELL ITSELF!!!!!!”
Tney may as well have it on an MP3 file so all they have to do is push the playback button.
Never underestimate the Entitled Arrogance of God’s Speshul Pets.
God is SO lucky to have them.
“SIR Ravi”?
“SIR Ravi”?
Where did he get a Title of Nobility to top Douggie ESQUIRE?
“There’s a sucker born every minute.”
— P.T.Barnum
And when it comes to Christians, there’s a sucker born every second.
Convenient how it has been redefined to mean cussing and cussinng alone, Eh, My Dear Wormwood? Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of The Enemy’s Altar!
Amazing how God always agrees with the ManaGAWD like a ventriloquist’s dummy.
Amazing how this Truth for God always sanctions whatever the ManaGAWD wants to do.
Amazing how God is always for the Clergy/Ministry and never for the Laity/People in the pews.
One of the things we watched for when we moved here was where is the emphasis in a given church? If it was on Jesus, we visited a second time. If it was heavily into OT stuff, we did not.
And nothing sent us running faster than what some preachers would tell us: “I believe in the NT but the OT is my meat and drink. I could preach from the OT 365 days out of the year.”
Yeah. But. While we do accept and believe in the OT to focus there instead of on Jesus is to basically negate what happened both at the cross and the empty tomb.
Control freaks and very legalistic folks seemed to want to focus OT. Not for us.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The more I reflect on this specific comment string, the more “things I heard in the past” come to my mind. A very “modern” way of saving this is: current preacher boy is casting his “vision”, which of course G&d revealed to him, and if you do not go along with this “vision”, you are not only divisive, you are going against G$d..
to me, this qualifies as “spiritual abuse”
Yes. Perhaps one could say that this form of misuse of the Name is neither love toward God nor love toward neighbor/
SBC is in big with Ramsey:
[2018 Baptist Press] “Dave Ramsey Partners with 16 State Conventions”
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/dave-ramsey-partners-with-16-state-conventions/
“the Baptist Convention of New Mexico…is among 16 Baptist state conventions to launch such partnerships with Ramsey Solutions this year in an effort to help believers learn to manage their money.”
“Additional state convention partnerships are in the works, according to Ramsey Solutions.”
“The state convention partnerships dovetail with an effort launched by the Southern Baptist Convention at its June annual meeting in Dallas…Ramsey Solutions discounted FPU* leader kits to $99 for Southern Baptist churches from their usual cost of $159. The SBC Executive Committee offered a further $20 discount on FPU leader kits”
“Tennessee Baptists have set a goal of 500 churches offering FPU classes in the next 36 months, said Randy Davis, president of the Tennessee Baptist Mission Board”
“If Tennessee Baptists as a whole got their personal finances in order and began tithing, Davis said, the increased revenue to churches could in turn increase CP giving 30-40 percent in the ‘near future’.”
*FPU = Financial Peace University, Dave Ramsey’s personal finance course.
…more like, a sucker born again every second.
elastigirl,
It is what narcissists do afterall 🙁
If you ask me (and you may not be) Dave Ramsey saying this to his employees is exactly what using God’s name in vain means. Ramsey is using God’s name to blackmail his employees into behaving the way Ramsey wants. It’s sickening.
Bridget,
Should have read all the comments before I posted. This was already covered by many.
There was an article I read about Trey Falwell and the financial benefits he gained from his father’s chancellorship. For example, he worked full-time at his job as a realtor while pulling a six-figure salary as VP at Liberty. Part of his job was overseeing land such as the strip mall next door that benefitted from Liberty’s location. Sounds a bit like a conflict of interest, to me.
Another was a house on LU property that he bought for something like $215. They called it a “fair” price. The problem with that is it came with 21 acres of land. Wonder what it would have gone for had it been put up for sale to any owner, eh?
ishy,
Oops, I meant to put $215k!
back in 2013, I took Dave Ramsey’s course at the Lutheran church my then-fiancé (now ex) attended, as they offered it for free to engaged couples, and she was (for lack of a better term) a massive fangirl of the man and his course, having already taken his course twice before, and always dropping the buzzwords and phrases taken from the course, while applying the stuff to her own financial situations. My take on the course was, while the advice and practices seemed sound, it was nothing I couldn’t have gotten for free off of the internet or from a trip to the local library…
That said, I’m not surprised that this kind of behavior is being exhibited by the man behind the brand…interacting with the advocates of his course like I did, many of them came off as near-fanatics, dropping buzzwords and mantras taken from the course, and testifying to the effectiveness of it; I don’t throw the word “cult” around lightly, but here it seems almost warranted…
And if anyone is morbidly curious, after our relationship ended (we never married), she went on to begin teaching the courses at her church…that didn’t surprise me, really…
::END TRANSMISSION::
…fiduciary dutIes?
hmmm…
That’s what you get when you fail to tip the pool boy.
..
James,
“interacting with the advocates of his course like I did, many of them came off as near-fanatics, dropping buzzwords and mantras taken from the course, and testifying to the effectiveness of it; I don’t throw the word “cult” around lightly, but here it seems almost warranted…”
++++++++++++++++++++
a friend was getting into an MLM, out-of-proportion-excited about the couple who ran the scheme, the product was pretty excite-worthy, too.
she invited me to one of their conventions. i sort of had to go. boy, i should was good at pretending for several hours.
it was huge — thousands of people there. incredible sound system playing throbbing epic music. all the women had power stilletto heels on.
testimonomials galore.
i just sat there and marveled… amazed by the religious fervor. it was like i was the only one amongst thousands who could see the wizard behind the curtain.
anyway, that’s christian culture. so ready to latch on to “the answer!” with their whole heart, soul, and mind.
my take: the answer / the answers are too simple for anyone to honestly profit from, and at the same time too complex to reduce down to a system, let alone warrant religious fervor.
Bridget,
Hi, Bridget – I responded – just want to make sure my email is functioning properly… my brain is also fried from a huge project i’m working on, so i may have missed something…
I don’t think the students will get a refund.
Oh yeah! I dare say you don’t have to drive more than an hour from anywhere in America to find a Dave Ramsey course at an SBC church sometime during the year. If Southern Baptists are clueless enough to surrender their domination to the New Calvinists without a fight, Ramsey would have no trouble getting in the house.
(as James noted, Ramsey’s financial advice is elementary stuff that your Daddy should have taught you)
Is it me, or do cults seem to be on the rise? Not just Christian cults like New Calvinism, but things like QAnon.
And I think this is the reason. Gimme easy answers and don’t make me actually live my life having to think about others or the consequences of my actions.
I have noticed a lot of the MLM fervor has worn off a lot of people I know, but it’s just been replaced by ideology cults.
Muff Potter,
Sit down Muff, your rocking da boat… (grin)
https://youtu.be/a_TvKH-qEJk
James
It looks like you may have dodged a bullet!!
In my family, we decided to invest in a small house when we first started out. We didn’t have all the required emergency fund, etc. We banked on our medical skills coming into play. It was tight but we were able to make a profit on the sale of that house 5 years later. I’m glad we ignored some of his advice. There was another show-Clark Howard I believe who was far kinder and more reasonable. Ramsey is not one of my favorites.
The way I read it, it looks (to me) like Ramsey a priori believes that he has absolute authority over what his employees do in the workplace. He could simply fire them for disobeying his orders. The “YHWH is not pleased” rhetoric strikes me as a shield to make his arbitrary rule appear less arbitrary. Perhaps he’s “using the Name” to protect himself from OSHA interest by attempting to “bind” his employees’ consciences into uncomplainingly conforming to his wishes. If they don’t, they can be dismissed as risking divine disfavor on the entire enterprise, and Federal or State intervention in the case could be called an infringement of religious liberty. But that, too, would IMO be a misuse of the Name.
I hope that Mr Amos receives restitution.
—–
It has been noted by multiple commenters that this form of “misuse of the Name” is not hard to find in US churches.
What is fascinating to me is that YHWH does not deal with these people as promptly as He did re: David in the Bathsheba/Uriah episode, or as He did in the Ananias/Sapphira incident.
It’s a controversial thought, but perhaps in our day these transgressors are already regarded by YHWH to be outside of His people, and that is judgment enough, so that there is no need for prompt punishment to vindicate the Name.
Samuel Conner,
“What is fascinating to me is that YHWH does not deal with these people as promptly as He did re: David in the Bathsheba/Uriah episode, or as He did in the Ananias/Sapphira incident.”
+++++++++
it’s possible things didn’t happen exactly as described.
for example, in describing my news to my family and my re-telling of events, i may leave things out for efficiency’s sake (to account for short-attention span of some listeners).
or, i may turn actual circumstances into a hypothetical story with a moral point that I hope is the take-away, and in so-doing (again, because of short-attention spans), i may alter things a bit.
or, i may hear of something quite remarkable from a friend, who heard it from another friend who was an eye-witness. through even a mere 2 generations, things can become altered to some degree. and it started with ‘perceptions’ of the truth of what happened (not a video recording with expert testimony)
elastigirl,
Responded Tuesday, late, I believe.
Samuel Conner,
I a, not sure of I agree with YHWH not dealing with people “rapidly”…. we have watch Driscol and “Jr” fall pretty hard, ket alone all the other “names” here at TWW… the BIG difference is that David repented…. it does seem that RZ “got away with it”..
First, I think the pandemic has hugely destabilized US society, and that we’ll drift back toward sanity as life gets more normal.
This era reminds me of the 1960s and 1970s, between say the JFK assassination and the last helicopter out of Saigon. Cults and new religions sprang up, hippies came into being, there was lots of peaceful protest as well as unrest and rioting. One afternoon the Hare Krishnas carried a newlywed couple on a litter (like a sedan chair) through our schoolyard. Our normal-looking Methodist “friends” were dropping off Birch Society literature and mourning the death of George Lincoln Rockwell. People burned bras and draft cards. Kent State happened. The Children of God movement scared the heck out of people, and then there were the Moonies, and Charles Manson, and the Symbionese Liberation Army. There was labor union violence.
From any one side, it might have looked like the other side was causing all the problems, but in truth the whole country was kind of nuts in our homes, at worship, in politics, education, the military, at work, everywhere. Things gradually settled down. Permanently, we thought. Ha.
Bridget,
OK – i’m on track!
Yeah, you’re probably right. So many people I know just kinda went off the deep end, if not full-out into a cult. I’m finding myself at a loss on how to deal with a number of people in my life, because rational conversations have not worked.
Prov. 30:6, “Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.”
Rev. 22:18, “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
Hard times. I sympathize. Hang in there!
Their money is Corban now.
“IF YOU QUESTION WHAT I SAY OR DO
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor “I Manipulate”
“WE ARE UNITED BEHIND THE VISIONARY!”
— Pastor Furtick Coloring Book
My Word-of-Faith/Prosperity-Gospel/Toronto-Blessing/New-Apostolic-Reformation neighbor wanted my husband to attend *her* husband’s Ramsey-esque series on family finances. I told her my husband could teach the series, although I was afraid to add that he’d do it a lot better! I’m married to Mr. Thrifty/Frugal/Penny-Pincher, and, trust me, he doesn’t need some other dude’s advice on how to save money. 😀
*Guys and Dolls* is my absolute favorite musical of all time. Six years ago, the North Carolina School for the Arts put on a “student” performance that beat the pants off of most professional productions I’ve ever seen of *anything.* It was utterly magical, and we had front-row seats, which made it simply magnificent. Even my poker-faced faced hubby loved it. It was his birthday present to me, and it was the best one ever. Those kids were so freaking talented. And the staging was total perfection.
Sorry to get off on that tangent…just don’t get me started on *Guys and Dolls.* 😀 I think the greatest American musical is probably *West Side Story,* but, for me, it’s just too darned sad. I go to the opera to cry my eyes out. I go to musicals to laugh and feel uplifted. But that’s just me.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Perhaps it’s from the same place where he got his PhD.
This song is for Mr. Falwell…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEgEmTgAEUk
My question is how do they stay just this side of the law so that they don’t busted for running a pyramid racket?
Yep!!
La Traviata will get me every time. I think I have more than a bit of Alfredo in me when Violetta (the love of his life, and a courtesan) dies of tuberculosis.
So many have a built-in label maker — “So you’re a ‘that’?” or shut down conversation before it can go anywhere, which too often seems to happen when one charged subject demands attention in just about every interaction.
That’s not really my experience with how they react. Cults always have a narrowly-defined language of topics that are “appropriate” and followers are trained/brainwashed into only repeating those topics. It’s like they can’t have normal conversations anymore. Just talking about the weather turns into a recitement of propaganda.
For example, the New Cals I know often only speak in John Piper and John Macarthur quotes, even if the topic is completely unrelated to something they have a quote for. Some people in my life who follow a current ideology turn every conversation about a rant about how anyone who doesn’t follow their ideology is a “sheeple”. I’m wondering how if we’re all sheeple that we don’t all use the same words over and over.
and above all Ascension which unifies the breathing on them in the Room AND the 9 o’clock Pentecost thing;
Ascending He distributed gifts differing which we shall need as we have always needed them (and they are sane and sober and often occur outside liturgies and we need to pool our open-ended inferences) = grace abounding = mercy multiplied.
To ration and veto is self-non forgiving as Jesus pointed out. This trading is the talents, it is the economy of Prov 21: 10-31 and Is 55, 58, 61 and James, the feeding of the thousands within the Church (the “unreached” only got twelve snake-baskets worth)
On the “up-out-in” formula, the fivefold in which we all co-minister, are “in-in-in-in-out” because to God if we look to “in” we are looking to “up”.
I sum up the entire OT & NT combined as “the worship of God is to not stunt the growth of our fellow adopted widows / orphans in Father’s firm” and while we are about it “the praise of God is to show Him we know He is the One to go shopping from (for needs in the church and our nations, especially just quality of government, none of which things are ad hominem) without price”.
Daniel begged the king not to murder the soothsayers, while Abraham and friends (name three good Amorites in the Bible for me) saved the populace of Sodom minus its king who had sloped off somewhere. **
Both our first approach to God in the shadow of our prior works, and grace for ongoing living and power for our subsequent works (His burden – our brother – ain’t heavy) are with His help – like power steering – and that is as Calvinist, or Arminian, as we need to get.
The Great Commission is that we instruct in EVERYTHING He taught, not a Small Commission. By sharing out belief we enter into some sort of “kingdom” (a distinct idea from “being saved” though it no doubt is generally intended to coincide).
The Good Thief who entered the labour force at the eleventh hour was – I suppose – as fruitful a witness as those who found themselves unexpectedly becoming long haulers. Sufficient unto the day are the trouble, and the grace, thereof. God operates VERY strange sliding scales, indeed.
Jesus IS going to comment on our subsequent works. We are going to be astounded that we visited or fed someone, helped them exercise like the person with the loaves / fishes, that we covered * their heads by affirming their gift. { * a totally different meaning than the misuse we sadly remember }
{ ** In the “police action” by the “coalition” Chodor-la’omer would have been chief tribute enforcer, Amr-aphel is probably a paraphrase of Amar-Sin / voice of the Moon God, Ellasar is Ilansura near Harran, the goiim or “peoples” are Hittite or Hurrian clans }
The people whom his handlers embroiled, like Nathan and Margie sadly, didn’t escape without collateral damage, like the populace of Rehoboam’s and afterwards Josiah’s kingdom. And what are we to make of the progeny of the “Christianity Today” stable?
JDV,
I call it being “bi-polar”… not in the metal condition, but in rational, cognitive way… as if Reality can be neatly categorized into two boxes….
what is wrong with agreeing with, and disagreeing with both political parties?
What is wrong with admitting that the Bible teaches both Divine Sovereignty and free choice?
What is wrong with admitting that an electron has both particle and wave (probability density) properties?
All it means, to me, is that I do not agree, or understand everything. I guess that makes me a “bad” person…
But one thing I do know, we are NOT to abuse people in the name of Christ..
America is moving from darkness to gross darkness. Cults, Christian or otherwise, are just one manifestation of that.
They have no identity of their own. They jump out of bed each morning to tune into cyberspace for the latest tweet from their favorite reformed icon. They memorize Piper Points, not Scripture … they are fueled by MacArthur Malarkey, Mohler Moments and Dever Drivel, not the Living Word.
Max,
Max, there is a unexpected “transformation” going on within me… As everyone that reads this blog knows, I go on and on about my fundamentalist background… and one thing that got to me was their constant citing of Bible verses..
But, as I grow old, and as see all the abuse in what is called “the church”, I find myself taking “comfort” in Bible stories and passages… in fact, the Bible specifically tells us to look out for bad players in our midst.. and, there are clear passages that tell us the “abusers” we read about on TWW are wrong, and in many cases “false prophets”….. I also find that instead of “tearing down” my faith, much of what we discuss on TWW encourages me…. see, for years, the way the “clowns” we discuss spoke/behaved really bugged my conscience, but as we all discuss, there is TREMENDOUS pressure to “ not rock the boat”, or question “dear leader”… well, that is changing..
= SBC seminaries … New Calvinism is flourishing in those institutions of lower learning
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Without a working knowledge of Scripture, even believers can be tripped up by false teachers. There’s nothing wrong with reading and memorizing Scripture … it’s not a “fundamentalist” thing, it’s a Christian thing.
Perhaps one could argue that the ones who get away with it or who are allowed to persist in error for prolonged periods of time (MD, for example, was pretty clearly going in worrisome directions for a good while — the better part of a decade, if I rightly recall insider accounts — before the final hard consequences overtook him) are actually experiencing an “under the sun” (Romans 1) form of divine wrath — they are being given over to their lusts and allowed to persevere in their darkened understanding. The ultimate bad self-inflicted consequences could be understood to be an expression of a passive/permissive, rather than active, wrath.
Jeffrey, I was young and now am old. I spent 70+ years in institutional “church.” I observed more in church that was not the Church than was Church. Not much that happened in those places of worship could be credited to the hand of God in Jesus name through the Holy Spirit.
However, there has always been the Church within the church – if you can identify who they are, believers need to hang out with them and attempt to tune the counterfeit out. After years of playing that game myself, I sadly entered the Done ranks when the NeoCals came in like a flood … so I’m done with “church” but not done with Jesus. Church in many places is exhausting, not refreshing. There’s little room for dinosaur Jesus-lovers like me.
Try to tell that to someone whose experienced Christians who are nothing more than MP3 playbacks of SCRIPTURE(TM). Like Saudi Religious Police with the Koran. They have ceased to be human.
Because now everyone and everything are into Litmus Tests of The One True Way.
IFF recognition codes of WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON?????
That was the first opera I ever saw in person, at the Met, long, long ago. I stayed with a friend and his wife (the friend was studying at General Seminary for the Episcopal priesthood). Yep, it gets me every time, too. Memories!
I could go on and on discussing opera, LOL! Don’t get me started!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Unfortunately, I have experienced exactly what HUG is referring to…
You ought see what happens when you talk with “one like this” that is a YEC…. sigh…
To some degree all 3 stories (Ram, Fal, RZMarge) touch on $$$ or are money-adjacent. Business, the business of $$$, the partnership of business & church/ministry.
Looking back …
When did the Church partner with the State?
When did the Church decisively separate from the State?
When did the Church partner with business?
Will this end well, or will the Church decisively separate from business?
Wonder what that would look like … compared to what we have now.
Ava Aaronson,
That is a VERY interesting question…. What would the church look like without the “business” mindset…. I saw mindset, becuase it is not just the pollution of $$$, but the “marketing”, “branding”, “metrics”, “customer focus”, etc, etc…
I have seen the same thing pollute academia…. sigh…
Charlatans in the Christian Industrial Complex figured out long ago that they could make money merchandising the gospel, rather than just picking the pockets of a few in the pew. They borrowed marketing gimmicks from the business world and plugged them into the church, slapped Jesus on their brand, and started raking in the dough.
Peter warned the church about such characters: “In their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine” (2 Peter 2:3).
But can they make disciples? That’s the Kingdom. Walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. Fruit of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit. Jesus promised the woman at the well she would never thirst again.
Money can’t produce/build the Kingdom of God. Hmmm … from a reality point of view, the $$$ efforts/initiatives seem futile. No fruit. Just fake.
The State churches could not legislate disciples, hence, not the Kingdom. They did, however, produce nice architecture, now museums. Attractive, but dead as churches.
Maybe I’m not understanding the dialog, but you’ve raised intriguing questions. You seem to be covering a lot of time and terrain. Churches built in tsarist Russia are gorgeous. They survived the whole Soviet period, with an underground Russian Orthodox movement and with some officially established as museums. Now they are state churches in a different sense, with sincere worship, but also with compromised values under the prevailing regime.
At the opposite end we have some beautiful old colonial churches in the US, which were founded as official, whether linked to that specific colony or to the Crown. Some of those have vibrant congregations, some are museums.
I’ve worshiped in some very lovely places, and some simple spots as well. Although I strongly favor the separation of religion and state, Christianity can thrive in any type of building.
Max, your comment is spot on. I play an instrument, not well but passably and have served churches in that need. But in the early 2000’s we started being fed some sick stuff. The move to standing a long song service? Some do that so the blood is reduced in the brain, making people more susceptible to manipulation on purpose. There are similar reasons to encourage hand clapping with hands over the head, and jumping up and down repeatedly. The change in style of music? Old hymns and gospel songs are thought driven, teaching the Word. We were told we needed to make people emotion driven, so we could give them a shot of dopamine, or serotonin, or adrenalin, or make them peace out or veg out, at the will of the lead pastor and worship leader. Just depended on what they wanted to accomplish in that service.
Make no mistake it was well orchestrated mind control, and woe to the objectors. Well, we did object and did so openly as to exactly what we opposed, and left that church. But we found the same thing in so many others that we fled back to true liturgical worship (not some liturgy and a lot of contemporary music, or liturgy lite and a few hymns.)
Here is the deal: the Bible forbids the practice of pharmacopea (which I cannot spell today lol.) It usually is translated witchcraft, but carries also the connotation of drugs and spells done with drugs.
Using music, light shows, etc with the express purpose of manipulation is just…exactly…that. It is bringing witchcraft into the church.
Before fans of contemporary worship excoriate me, ask yourself this: were you bummed out by the pandemic closures, with withdrawal symptoms when you could not get your “fix” of worship? Then my friend they have you hooked. Healthy churches of whatever music style were able to switch on the fly to online, or parking lot, or whatever worship or just home based worship and nobody suffered withdrawal. Those churches were not using witchcraft.
But if your church of whatever worship form is afraid to wait out the pandemic and rushes to large crowds against medical advice, suspect witchcraft. Plain and simple, they have become pushers of self made brain drugs and have to not let their people detox.
All harsh, but research it yourself in some of the teachings “worship leaders” are receiving.
Oh yeah, they make “disciples”: “Men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after themselves” (Acts 20:30).
There are many flavors of “theology” based on distortion of truth, designed to put man on the throne and strip away the authority of Christ. Much of the American church are disciples of themselves, not disciples of Jesus. Satan has deceived the kingdom of men and distracted much of the institutional church from preaching the Gospel – the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. He has done this by getting the pulpit and pew preoccupied by secondary things rather than the primary … the Main Thing ain’t the main thing.
You mean like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzuM2XTnpSA
I absolutely respect your experiences of this, and I agree it’s calculated and manipulative. It’s also evil.
However, the word “witchcraft” troubles me. In my campus Christian fellowship, I was once accused of witchcraft, merely for looking at someone across the room—a young SBC guy, as it happens. He performed a forced “exorcism” on another member of the fellowship (OK, that’s demons, not witches, but same ballpark). He also liked to sit in the cafeteria and point out the “witches.” All of them were attractive young women. He was obsessed with a Jewish student, so we had anti-Semitism mixed in with misogyny, but labeled witchcraft.
Churches are capable of manipulating brain chemicals as part of their grand menu of oppression. It can be evil without being witchcraft.
On a related note, will you please share the Bible passage that forbids the practice of pharmacopeia? I would like to study this. My bias: I am alive today in part because I took antidepressants for awhile. I would welcome your insights, so I can develop my own understanding.
Puppets?
With allegiance to, formerly, the State? To, presently, the business? (Or to the $$$)? Is King and Country, from which the USA declared independence, now $$$ and the Church Corp.?
Ava Aaronson,
Note: Everyone needs work & compensation, civilized society, & friends (including Christian). We also need boundaries, ex.: separation of Church & State. Many of the TWW posts seem to expose lack of boundaries in church & ministry. It’s a problem, often hidden; can also be damaging, even deadly. Thx, TWW et al, for being a safe place of engagement & enlightenment. Seems counter-intuitive, but one way to save lives & souls is to expose stuff, yes, in the church.
Friend–I also needed ADs for a while. They are not forbidden, nor is medicine in general. Context is everything, and what is forbidden by the Bible is sorcery and/or using chemical means in the practice of sorcery. Gal.5:19-21. Rev. 9:21. Rev.18:23.
Clearly medicine is allowed in the Bible. Even the story of the good Samaritan had him providing the cutting edge medicine of the day with the oil.
I hope I was clear that it was the manipulative factor with the music and lights etc that moved them into witchcraft. If you use a good online tool such as Strong’s Concordance and then follow the numbers for the English words to the listing of meanings you will find that there is some overlap in both testaments where words can be translated as into English, depending on context, as “medicine” which is good, “influence” which can be good or bad, or “spell” or “witchcraft” or “sorcery” which are always bad.
I cannot find anything in my Bible that allows for deliberately manipulating brain chemicals in a church service to get a specified response as anything other than casting spells or witchcraft.
In a healthy worship service of course people will respond with the normal changes in brain chemical. That isn’t evil. Hearing a song that moves you isn’t evil nor was the musician casting a spell when they recorded or played it.
But by the same token if you study that song, learn it will cause people to release brain chemicals that cause them to be more apt to respond to a plea for help, and then you choose to use that song right before the offering with a strong plea for them to help, well, there are not many other words to describe that than witchcraft.
It isn’t the music or the genre of music. It isn’t that colored light is bad and white light is good. It isn’t that emotionless worship is good and lively emotional worship is bad.
But it is all about who stirred things up, the Holy Spirit or the drug pusher aka worship leader?
I had one friend who discovered she had migraines every Thursday unless she went to church both Sunday morning and Wednesday night. Then she moved across country and attended a different church and it did not happen. She figured out she was missing her fix by Wednesday at the first church.
A church I was a member of years ago would fast music during Lent at church. It was a liturgical church, wasn’t a biggie to us, and we really loved its restoration at Easter. But we had some friends in a more…chemically dependent…type of worship in that town that tried it and basically had the church version of the dt’s, I guess. Whole shebang fell apart after 2 weeks and they had to restart the music and the stage show.
But enjoy the study, and remember drugs can be good–covid shots, antidepressants, penicillin, or bad–cocaine use, meth, or controlling people’s minds without the knowledge and consent through a presentation from a stage.
linda,
Thank you so much! I will look. Wanted first to acknowledge your thoughtful effort.
Apostle Luke was a physician.
linda,
“But it is all about who stirred things up, the Holy Spirit or the drug pusher aka worship leader?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
hmmm…. i reckon that’s a fine line no one can know, really.
the holy spirit tends to work through the agent of a human being. it’s a combination of both – we work together.
if I as a musician know that a crecendo is musically appropriate, i make a decision to play with one. the crescendo moves me, it moves the listening participants, i’m sure it moves the holy spirit, too.
i made the decision. i made the musical decision to stir things up. holy spirit said “great! let’s do it!” (at least, there is no reason to think otherwise). and it was great for all of us.
I am now in tears. I want to see that movie!
US TV show Frasier. Season 9, episode 16
Watch it on Paramount+ or Amazon Prime Video
I’ve now had time to read the passages twice in context. Certainly they mention sorcery. I’m failing to see anything about using music or lights to manipulate the brain… but, then again, the Bible refers to withered arms, not a term any doctor would use.
But my underlying question is this: Assuming that some churches deliberately manipulate people with lights and music, do you think this type of sorcery is supernatural, or is it human evil?
Robert Morris, pastor of Gateway Church in Texas, preached a series of sermons in which he said, week after week, that people who did not give enough to the church would open doors into their bodies and admit demons. He accused them of robbing God. He was manipulating the worshipers through terror, and they were lapping it up because everybody hates demons. Nothing in the Bible says that my church can calculate my required annual pledge, and that if I fall short, little doors will open and demons will get inside me. In my opinion, that is an example of human evil through words: Robert Morris is committing a human act of evil, while teaching the worshipers to fear the supernatural.
That example is not exactly the same… but why fear the devil, when the real culprit is right there holding a microphone?
Max, I’m so tuned into your comments. I’m sure it’s because I find so much wisdom there that comforts and challenges me. I think you should consider writing more. Perhaps a book or extended blog reflecting on what your 70+ years have shown you. Your thoughts and posts encourage me more than you know!
If I wrote a book, the New Calvinists would know who I am and come looking for me! 🙂
I’m glad that my words have encouraged you, Believer. As believers, we need to offer light and life to others in the Body of Christ. There’s little in the evening news these days which is encouraging, but there is always hope in Christ.
Friend–I totally agree with your last post regarding human evil holding the microphone. And bear in mind I did not say that I believe witches have any real power, rather that humankind has a tendency to practice sorcery or witchcraft. If you want a really extensive Bible study you might use that concordance and look up all the references to sorcery, witchcraft etc AND run the references. A good concordance that has the root meanings and alternate translations of the basic words in Greek and Hebrew will help a lot.
Here is an example which might help you see what I am saying: I had an acquaintance going through chemo who used pot brownies to overcome the nausea and wasting chemo caused. I see nothing evil or the practice of witchcraft or sorcery in that. HOWEVER, if I started making pot brownies and giving them to my neighbor WITHOUT letting my neighbor know there was pot in the brownies, and did so for the purpose of someway controlling my neighbor to give me something or to obey me about something, I would be practicing sorcery or witchcraft due to my very real human evil. I do not think that would open THEM to demons but such an attitude in me might very well open my own soul to them.
You’re touching on ancient suspicion of music in worship. Even though Christians have chanted and sung for two millennia, some traditions reject all music, some reject musical instruments, some reject women’s voices.
Personally I can do without bad Sunday morning night clubs. To paraphrase the great theologian Homer Simpson, “You’re not making Christianity better, you’re making rock worse.” 😉
There’s divinity in music and The Holy Spirit inspired (I believe) Mozart’s hand when he penned Le Nozze di Figaro…
Costumed club performers on the worship team, on stage, leading “worship”.
They’ve hit the big time of the chollywood church casino stage.
How entertaining, how attractive, how uplifting. Actually, not.
Watched the Ray Croc film on Netflix last night. He evicted cigarette vending and game machines at McDonald’s because he said, “We don’t want to attract that crowd. We want families taking home family dinner.”
Do churches contemplate the crowd they attract and the End Game? True, all sinners welcome, but should be, “Come & sin no more,” rather than “Jump in the soup, we’ll swim in it together.”
Erratum: This observation was made by Hank Hill rather than Homer Simpson. Hill, although a lesser luminary than Simpson, has nonetheless contributed ably to scholarly understanding of telos, propane, and propane accessories.
linda,
Thank you so much, Linda. I really appreciate your further insights. We might use different terminology, but we basically agree about how to treat others.
Morris is nothing more than a grifter who’s found pay-dirt in people who are afraid of their own shadows and who might just as well fear ladders and black cats.
Good point.
A comment about another liar that seems apropos here: “… he was frequently telling lies, and the more he got away with it, the more he did it.” – from “The College Admissions” doc on Netflix.
They get away with it, it grows. It being crime.
Muff, it is my favorite opera by far. I know Mozart purists say *Don Giovanni* is his greatest, but the Don just doesn’t do it for me the way *Marriage* does. It has it all — humor, wit, pathos, poignancy, romance, humanitas. And the greatest final scene *ever.*
Thanks for alerting me to *Shawshank Redemption.* I’d heard of it but never seen it. Now I can’t wait to watch it!
“Cults always have a narrowly-defined language of topics that are ‘appropriate’ and followers are trained/brainwashed into only repeating those topics. It’s like they can’t have normal conversations anymore. Just talking about the weather turns into a recitement of propaganda.”
…. sounds like what I read here.
I think the Facebook page with Sir Ravi is probably Asians or just Indians. They tend to say Sir or Madame when speaking to those in authority. It is not a Western culture thing. Most say Ravi Ji in Hindi which is Ravi Sir. Indians don’t tend to use names in addressing others. One is aunty, sister, brother, uncle, sir, madame. IF they called Ravi by his name Ravi they would be putting themselves on the same level as he is. That is not acceptable nor respectful in their culture.
Indians were very proud of RZIM. They thought that for the first time they exported an Indian ministry to the West which really hasn’t happened over the years. Most missionaries go to them. Not sure if all will accept the truth. I heard from an Egyptian friend. RZ was very popular there. They also are dealing with denial.
Friend–I would say this, using the example I made up. If that hypothetical neighbor I gave pot brownies was made aware I was using them to control his mind, and continued to eat them because he liked the effect, then he would have become complicit and opened himself up to evil in the spiritual world, in my opinion.
linda,
Well, I’m not sure exactly what you mean, and won’t make assumptions. Where does the evil in the spiritual world come from? Enjoyment, illegality, the mild euphoria I can only imagine because I’ve never used the stuff? I don’t understand how medical marijuana amounts to mind control. Who is controlling the mind of the cancer patient?
If legal medical marijuana use does not cause people to get possessed by demons, then neither does legal recreational use. And cannabis use is older than any of that.
When I was a kid, a lady used to come by our house and say that we shouldn’t listen to Peter, Paul and Mary because they sang “Puff, the Magic Dragon,” and that was about pot use, and the Communists were trying to destroy American families by getting children “hooked” on pot.
In my college fellowship some people said that recreational use of various things, as well as watching certain movies (“The Exorcist”), would cause demons to get into people. I was warned not to join the karate club, because karate was devoted to false gods, and if I got good at karate I would end up possessed by demons.
If this were true, then think how many Americans are possessed by demons today. Everybody who smoked a joint in college, every kid who goes to after-school karate, everybody who ever watched “The Exorcist,” everybody who ever listened to Peter, Paul and Mary…
Again, I’m not ascribing any of this to you. I’d like to understand your experience.
Friend, you totally misread what I said. I said nothing about legal recreational usage of pot. I said it would open me to evil and possibly evil spirits if I used it as sorcery to control another person without their knowledge. I said also if the other person was made aware that I was controlling them and because they enjoyed the pot continued to be manipulated they had at that point become complicit in my sin.
Lets put it another way. I think we agree it would be evil for a pastor to groom a parishioner for sexual favors, and should that include the old liquor is quicker be even more evil. But if while stone cold sober the victim becomes aware of what is happening, is aware that they are being victimized, and knowing that the pastor is engaging in evil decides since they like that darn champagne so much they will continue the relationship anyway they have moved from victim to complicit sinner.
Or if I had a real thing for fried chicken and were a bank officer, and someone was plying me with chicken for lunch every day but expecting me to pass out free samples of the bank money, using my addiction to chicken against me, they would be evil. But if I took a few weeks off work, not getting my chicken fix, realized what was happening and that fried chicken was my drug of choice being pushed upon me unwittingly to control me, and went back to the same lunch/free samples routine, I would have moved from victim being manipulated to as guilty as the chicken fryer.
Same thing in church. Nothing wrong with any genre of music, with the light shows, etc per se. But if they are being used knowingly to manipulate people to take certain actions, that is evil. Brain chemicals are still chemicals and using them on unwitting victims is evil. But if an individual learns that their brain chemicals are being maneuvered to put them in bondage to another person, and chooses to continue allowing it, they are no longer victims but participants in the evil.
There are ways to prevent it. One church we were part of had a music committee choosing the music independent of the pastor. (Green book lutheran and lectionary followers). It worked. Another was low church and simply allowed the people each week to ask for whatever hymn they wanted. Another was contemporary but the worship leader was intentionally kept into the dark as to what the text and the sermon would be about. Amazingly the Holy Spirit directed it so well it always fit but there was none of manipulation.
I think maybe you are thinking it is the substances I object to, when it fact it is using the substances to manipulate I object to.
The dinosaurs are often misrepresented. They were the dominant species on the planet for 120 million years compared to our piddly 200 000 more or less.
So invoking the dinosaurs isn’t a negative!
But you might’ve meant you love dinosaurs & Jesus…which is also pretty cool…and a shame if loving dinos gets you shunned.
Oh well I think Kenny Ham had people riding dinosaurs on Noah’s ark, sort of like those dinotopia picture books. Doesn’t get much more biblical than that.
linda,
Appreciate the further examples. Clearly we are both against manipulation through substances, grooming, etc. Maybe the main difference is that I don’t see a supernatural element, such as spirits or sorcery.
My experience includes a lot of fear mongering about demons, but the evil has been all human. This does not cancel out your experience.
I have had that too. Hundreds of years of discovery and thousands of data points don’t stand a chance against a few poorly-understood proof texts. As a bonus, you can be on the receiving end of zingers like, “My grandmother wasn’t a monkey!” and “What terrible sin are you involved in that would make you deny the Literal Word of Gawd!”
Friend–I think you still do not get what I mean by sorcery, witchcraft, etc. I think you may be thinking I believe the victims are being opened to demon possession or something like that. I do not. I believe the perps are opening themselves up to evil in whatever form. But I do believe a lot of otherwise rational people are being duped into all kinds of nonsense by the manipulating of the natural chemicals in their brains. And I believe if you recognize that is happening, then you are no longer a victim if you continue to hang out where that is happening.
But I do believe in the world of the church and its leaders, that manipulation is strictly forbidden in the Scriptures. So those that commit those evil acts are in a heap of trouble.
Again, nothing wrong with the release of brain chemicals during worship unless there is devious manipulation going on. When I hear a song that really moves me I get a charge of dopamine and serotonin, which feel good and are not evil. But if my pastor God forbid were to decide on Tuesday that he wants to amp me up on Sunday in order to make me susceptible to agreeing to help paint the parsonage, he is attempting or using sorcery and he is endangering his own soul.
Don’t get too hung up on the words sorcery or witchcraft. They are good Bible terms and while sometimes the usage is clearly dealing with the world of evil spirits, and we deny that at great risk, they are also words that simply refer to using potions, chemicals, physical means to dupe people or to bring them under the power of your influence.
Sort of like some old pop songs referred to women wearing perfume and dressing up nice and all that “feminine wiles” stuff as voodoo. Did not mean they were engaging with the spirit world. Just meant they were using physical props to bring men under their control.
linda,
OK, and again I thank you. We’ve gone into a lot of detail, and I hope and trust it will help people who have heard terms from Scripture used as medical diagnoses and allegations of demon possession, witchcraft, etc.
So glad to be out of the environment of organized church. Everywhere I go it’s a social club a group of men who think they rule the world and women who turn get togethers into a bi event in an attempt to appear more spiritual. Every pastor I see has their hair gel and dressed snazzy yuppie jeans and dress shirts. Every church has an expresso coffee shop and the latest Christian music setting up the chapels like it’s a concert.
Shauna,
I’m sorry it’s like that where you live. So depressing.
In this region, we have some of those churches, and they are gobbling up smaller congregations. But we also have a great variety of other churches where people sing hymns, play the organ or sing a capella, read the Bible, etc.
Still, I can’t think of a nearby church with a coffee shop or pastor in jeans. We did have such a place, but one Sunday the pastor left and never came back. The church reopened a couple of years later with a completely different congregation and tradition.
You don’t have to go back… but please realize that plenty of churches are not like that. Perhaps that will ease your heart a little.
Like London in Mortal Engines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plA7N05y81M
Because Charismatics turn EVERYTHING into Supernatural Spirits or Sorcery.
It’s like the Paranormal junkies phoning in to Coast to Coast AM at three in the morning.
“Just like Occult Fanboys, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
MISDIRECTION.
Ask any stage magician about Misdirection.
Get everyone’s attention there while you pull off the effect here.
PA Dutch and Appalachian lore and legend are full of Hexen and Witch-Men extorting money and goods from others by threat of siccing their pet Supernatural Forces and Powers on all who don’t fork it over.
Give them everything they want or they conjure Demons and Spirits and Curses and send them against you.
Check it against the classic distinction between Religion and Magick:
Who’s In Charge Here?
If the mortal Sorcerer is the one calling the shots and in control of the Supernatural Powers, it’s Magick.