Joe Carter of The Gospel Coalition, With the Help of Jonathan Leeman of 9Marks, Plans to Stop Church Membership Decline in the US By Requiring Church Membership!

The Helix Nebula throwing a cosmic tantrum. JPL/NASA

“You can’t change the world alone – you will need some help – and to truly get from your starting point to your destination takes friends, colleagues, the goodwill of strangers, and a strong coxswain to guide them.” William H. McRaven


In 2005, the Gospel Coalition was formed. Who did they say they are?

They are opposed to liturgy, ritual, and sacrament which might surprise some Anglicans who occasionally write for TGC, Their goals are stated here.

We are a fellowship of evangelical churches in the Reformed tradition deeply committed to renewing our faith in the gospel of Christ and to reforming our ministry practices to conform fully to the Scriptures.

…We believe that in many evangelical churches a deep and broad consensus exists regarding the truths of the gospel. Yet we often see the celebration of our union with Christ replaced by the age-old attractions of power and affluence, or by monastic retreats into ritual, liturgy, and sacrament. What replaces the gospel will never promote a mission-hearted faith anchored in enduring truth working itself out in unashamed discipleship eager to stand the tests of kingdom-calling and sacrifice.

…We want to generate a unified effort among all peoples—an effort that is zealous to honor Christ and multiply his disciples, joining in a true coalition for Jesus. Such a biblically grounded and united mission is the only enduring future for the church. This reality compels us to stand with others who are stirred by the conviction that the mercy of God in Jesus Christ is our only hope of eternal salvation. We desire to champion this gospel with clarity, compassion, courage, and joy—gladly linking hearts with fellow believers across denominational, ethnic, and class lines.

Our desire is to serve the church we love by inviting all our brothers and sisters to join us in an effort to renew the contemporary church in the ancient gospel of Christ so that we truly speak and live for him in a way that clearly communicates to our age. As pastors, we intend to do this in our churches through the ordinary means of his grace: prayer, the ministry of the Word, baptism and the Lord’s Supper and the fellowship of the saints. We yearn to work with all who, in addition to embracing the confession and vision set out here, seek the lordship of Christ over the whole of life with unabashed hope in the power of the Holy Spirit to transform individuals, communities, and cultures.

Their goals are fairly clear:

  • This is a Reformed group of pastors.
  • They apparently don’t like liturgy and sacrament which they derogatorily refer to as a *monastic retreat into ritual, liturgy, and sacrament.* I find this particularly interesting since I am seeing an increase in Anglican pastors writing on the TGC website.  I wonder if they know that their liturgy is held with scorn by this group.
  • They invite *brothers and sisters* to join in the effort.
  • However, this group is headed by pastors who, as we know, can only be men.
  • They hope to transform cultures.
  • They seem to believe that prayer, ministry of the Word, baptism, and the Lord’s Supper are to be emphasized. I hadn’t noticed that these were absent in the churches that I attended.

Then, in 2006, Collin Hansen wrote Young, Restless, Reformed: Calvinism is making a comeback—and shaking up the church. This was when I began to get interested. The article points out the concern about this theology within the SBC. This is a problem that remains.

Already, this latest surge of Reformed theology has divided Southern Baptist churches and raised questions about the future of missions. Its exuberant young advocates reject generic evangelicalism and tout the benefits of in-depth biblical doctrine. They have once again brought the perennial debate about God’s sovereignty and humans’ free will to the forefront.

The article touted Joshua Harris who no longer subscribes to the faith. It mentions CJ Mahaney who presided over the greatest evangelical sex abuse scandal (maybe until Ravo Zacharias.)

Harris was a leader among his generation even before he published I Kissed Dating Goodbye in 1997. But the bestseller introduced him to a wider evangelical audience, earning many fans and at least as many detractors. Now he pastors Covenant Life Church, a congregation of 3,800 in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

… Later, C. J. Mahaney, a charismatic Calvinist and founding pastor of Covenant Life, took Harris under his wing and groomed him to take over the church. Mahaney, 51, turned Harris on to his hero, Charles Spurgeon, the great 19th-century Calvinistic Baptist preacher in London. Mahaney assigned him a number of texts, such as Iain H. Murray’s Spurgeon vs. Hyper-Calvinism. “I would have been reading Christian comic books if left to myself,” Harris told me, flashing the characteristic self-deprecating humor he shares with Mahaney.

The article extolled Al Mohler and John Piper.

Mohler has attracted a strong faculty and spurred enrollment to more than 4,300 students—which makes it the largest Southern Baptist seminary. But SBC conservatives may have gotten more than they bargained for in Mohler. The tireless public intellectual freely criticizes perceived SBC shortcomings, especially what he considers misguided doctrine. Oh, and Mohler is an unabashed Calvinist. His seminary now attracts and turns out a steady flow of young Reformed pastors.

… Piper does scare some people. It’s probably his unrelenting intensity, demanding discipline, and singular passion—for the glory of God. Those themes resound in Desiring God, Piper’s signature book. The pastor for preaching and vision at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis has sold more than 275,000 copies of Desiring Godsince 1986. Piper has personally taken his message of “Christian hedonism” to audiences around the world, such as the Passion conferences for college-age students

It warned of the potential splitting of the SBC

The most provocative comments in the SBC may belong to Steve Lemke, provost of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. In April 2005, he presented a paper on “The Future of Southern Baptists as Evangelicals.” Lemke warned, “I believe that [Calvinism] is potentially the most explosive and divisive issue facing us in the near future. It has already been an issue that has split literally dozens of churches, and it holds the potential to split the entire convention.”

…Lemke noted that Calvinism has periodically waxed and waned among Southern Baptists. “However, the number of Calvinist faculty dramatically increased [starting in the 1980s and] over the next 20 years.” Lemke and many others explained to me that Calvinists like Mohler earned leadership roles during the SBC’s inerrancy battles due to their reliably conservative theology. Their academic and biblical rigor suited them for seminary positions. Now, Lemke said, their influence has made the “newest generation of Southern Baptist ministers … the most Calvinist we have had in several generations.”

The more I read, the more I found their *We will save the stupid church with real theology* fascinating. So, in 2006, I would check in in 2020, to see how the saving of the church was going. I’m a little late but here goes.

In 2021: 15 years later

Church membership is in a steep decline

In March 2021, Jeffrey Jones wrote U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time.

  • In 2020, 47% of U.S. adults belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque
  • Down more than 20 points from turn of the century
  • Change primarily due to rise in Americans with no religious preference

…13-percentage-point increase in no religious affiliation since 1998-2000 appears to account for more than half of the 20-point decline in church membership over the same time.

…The decline in church membership, then, appears largely tied to population change, with those in older generations who were likely to be church members being replaced in the U.S. adult population with people in younger generations who are less likely to belong.

Well, in 2021, it appears to demonstrate that the Young, Restless, and Reformed crowd did not make a dent in the decline in church membership.

In the meantime, evangelicals are increasingly interested in liturgical church and practices and even Matt Chandler is jumping on the bandwagon. Uh oh.

Evangelical churches are embracing liturgy to make the megachurch more personal: Pastors and professors see the trend as a response to other trends, both inside and outside the church, and as an opportunity to overcome barriers that have divided Christians for centuries.

That sentiment has been strong among Southern Baptists, so it is significant that The Village Church, a congregation with ties to that denomination (it was previously named Highland Village First Baptist Church) has adopted these practices.

Winfield Bevins, for Mission Alliance, wrote 8 Reasons the Next Generation Craves Ancient Liturgy

Young adults are also drawn to historic practices because they long for a sense of mystery. The pragmatic consumerism that has infected the church leads us to value the elements of our faith and practice that are most “relevant” to us today. For example, many contemporary churches play worship music that echoes secular pop songs, and we’ve designed our church buildings to look like Walmarts or movie theaters, neglecting theologically informed architectural designs that were once popular in church buildings and sanctuaries.

Young adults sense intuitively that today’s churches have lost a vision for aesthetic beauty that encourages us to experience the mystery and transcendence of God. And they have grown tired of shallow, alternative approaches to the historic liturgical practices of past centuries.

Young adults want more. They want depth and mystery, and they aren’t afraid to say it.

Wait…pastors like Matt Chandler, a Calvinist Southern Baptist, are now beginning to embrace liturgical practices. But…This goes against the foundational documents on The Gospel Coalition. Maybe it’s time to do a rewrite?

Joe Carter of TGC and Johnathan Leeman of 9Marks appear to have the cure for this decline in church membership is…formal church membership!

Carter refers to Leeman as a *pastor-theologian!* Leeman claims that the church is a real-life “embassy.”

As pastor-theologian Jonathan Leeman says, an embassy declares its home nation’s interests, and it protects the citizens of the home nation living in the host nation. A church is a real-life embassy, set in the present, that represents Christ’s future kingdom and his coming universal church.

He claims that a new church attendee is part of that embassy when he joins the church.

What then is a church member, and what is church membership? A church member, as Leeman adds, is “someone who walks through the embassy doors claiming to belong to the kingdom of Christ.” Members are also part of the embassy, among the officials who affirm and oversee others.

Joe Carter claims that we, the ones who are church-goers, must submit to the authority of the leaders,

Church membership is therefore necessary because it helps us obey essential commands found in Scripture. For example, the Bible says we should submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Eph. 5:21). The Bible also says to have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account (Heb. 13:17).

How do you know which leaders to submit to? How do Christian leaders know who should submit to them? And how do we know who such leaders are? How do the leaders know for which people God will hold them responsible?

The answer is that we freely choose to submit to a specific group of believers and leaders by making a public commitment. And we do all of that by becoming members of a church.

What is wrong with this description of church membership which usually involves signing a membership contract.

  • The uninitiated are asked to sign a church covenant which is a contract. This is a legal contract that can be rescinded at any time, no matter what they say. However, I do not believe that anyone should sign such a document, no matter what they are called.
  • The uninitiated are told to have confidence in their leaders. How do they know they should have confidence in these men? In fact, I would contend that one should never submit to leaders that they don’t know. For example, how does one know if their approach to church discipline is correct? Ask Todd Wilhelm who was subjected to church discipline after he resigned from a 9Marks church in Dubai (UCCD) because he objected to their pushing books by CJ Mahaney. He was put on the discipline list (called a member care list because he didn’t immediately join an acceptable church.
  • Who defines what gets disciplined? Point of fact: there is rarely any document that outlines, a priori, what will be disciplined and this is dangerous. I’ve written for years on the downright whacky stuff that gets disciplined. I believe that one should be particularly careful with churches affiliated with 9Marks and Acts 29.
  • What exactly constitutes *authority?* How far does that authority extend? These are questions that are rarely answered and, assuch, some will find thsat thid can lead to abusive behavior on the part of church authoritarians.

I believe that abusive practices, including sex abuse, in the church is contributing to church membership decline.

I believe that abusive church practices, including sex abuse, are contributing factors to church decline. I believe that many were shocked to discover that evangelical churches had as many complaints of sex abuse as the Catholic church. Even now, we watch leaders like JD Greear team up witha  pastor who did not report abuse to the authorities. Yet he was the one who wanted us to believe that the SBC was serious about sex abuse. Years ago, Joe Carter accused me of libel for speaking out against alleged sexual abuse in Sovereign Grace Ministries. To this day, Carter, along with others in the Reformed crowd, have not apologized for their sycophantic acceptance of Sovereign Grace Ministires deeply flawed ministry. Imagine if I had had the misfortune to be a member of Carter’s church in which he serves as a pastor?

Be very careful to whom you relinquish your freedom of conscience. Be careful of those who demand that you submit to their authority. And, given this insight by Carter and Leeman, be super dee duper careful.

Comments

Joe Carter of The Gospel Coalition, With the Help of Jonathan Leeman of 9Marks, Plans to Stop Church Membership Decline in the US By Requiring Church Membership! — 143 Comments


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    Numero uno?


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    Another great post…

    Beginning: “and a strong coxswain to guide them.” William H. McRaven

    To End: “Be very careful to whom you relinquish your freedom of conscience. Be careful of those who demand that you submit to their authority. And, given this insight by Carter and Leeman, be super dee duper careful.”

    Best & only boat to jump into (commitment) has Jesus as the coxswain.

    The question about “going to church” is: Does Jesus show up here? Is God, via His Holy Spirit, in attendance? If not, why bother, or even, why risk engagement in an ungodly “church”.


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    Carter: “How do you know which leaders to submit to? How do Christian leaders know who should submit to them? And how do we know who such leaders are? How do the leaders know for which people God will hold them responsible?
    “The answer is that we freely choose to submit to a specific group of believers and leaders by making a public commitment. And we do all of that by becoming members of a church.”

    I thought maybe the first two questions would receive an answer in terms of how to tell which ones were qualified for stewardship positions. But instead, it’s about assigning personal leaders to people? And again, where is any hedge related to the consequences of choosing to submit to specific people and signing whatever agreement they choose to put in front of you? Where is any of that made a priority or a “Mark“ of how to do things prudently and advisedly? (Of course, when the response to things going horribly wrong is often “Oopsie, mistakes were made, yay forgiveness, we good?” with the well-compensated offender returning after a “season”, the general priorities appear to be evident time and again.)

    The disconnect is so unreal, with all of these reasons offered not to go to this church or that church or this denomination or that, but just trust someone who calls themselves “the local church“ and make a binding commitment that apparently can go beyond letting your yes be yes and your no be no. As has been said, where else are you gonna go?

    Ignore all the scandals and “moral failing” in churches involved with the SBC , TGC, and so forth, and just lead with submission without a priority on a grievous wolf or hireling check, is that it? Don’t sweat the concentration of power under a few people or some guy who’s had a “vision“ and sets up the power and financial structure for him, his wife and family, and people who he generally selects — often thanks to what he has been “shown“ in the “vision“ — because he and his selections are to be ceded submission and authority, is that it?

    Nevermind that people who need funding for their enterprises often bristle at the possibility that the support will not sustain itself, yet binding agreements — including spiritual blackmail —have been used and abused, specifically in religious contexts, for how long? Given the track records, it seems that may not be one of the marks they evidently want to concentrate on and prioritize as much in order to be evaluated as stewards — which is quite biblical — as much as turning the focus around to the “sheep” who too often are primarily seen as a means to a financial end.


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    Yet we often see the celebration of our union with Christ replaced by the age-old attractions of power and affluence, or by monastic retreats into ritual, liturgy, and sacrament.

    There’s far too much power and affluence in today’s evangelical church, especially among some of the megachurch pastors and major ministries. Sadly, they’re giving Dee and Todd too much material to work with.

    As for liturgy, it’s worth noting that retired Anglican priest John Yates not only sits on TGC’s council but its board as well.


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    In some of those liturgical churches, babies are baptized. They grow up in the church. Such people are sometimes referred to as communicants because they receive Communion during the liturgy.

    They are members because they belong. They are never not members. No contract required.

    And yes, they can resign at will, or just not attend any more.

    (Having written all this wild radical stuff, I will now retreat to my fainting couch.)


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    JDV: the “sheep” who too often are primarily seen as a means to a financial end.


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    Thought this may be of interest to the readership here.

    Hosted by a guy who is an ex-Calvinist.
    He calls his position now “Provisionism.”

    “What Should SBC Churches Do To Combat Calvinism?”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhKMYudb6yE


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    Lets just say its happening at the far ends of the earth aswell… we had a new young pastor turn up at our Baptist Church, over time he has led the church away from the Baptist Churches of NZ doctrine. He began by giving people in leadership 9marks books, gospel coalition books to read. Then we discovered our church among others had been listed on the Gospel coalition website with no ones knowledge. Their founding documents did not line up with established policy. He claimed it was just free advertising. He then began to change everything regarding what women could do, how worship teams operated, broke down the doctrine of ‘priesthood of all believers’, began to become more and more calvanistic. A group of us challenged many of these things, we have been shunned & ex-communicated. Many of us have been faithful church members for decades. He blames us for being divisive even though it was his views, and the dangerous unaccountable and authoritarian views of church leadership from Gospel Coalition and 9marks that started it all. These American pastors who write this will have a lot to answer for.


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    I’m currently reading James Durham’s sermons on “Keeping a good conscience”, recently published by RHB & Naphtali Press and Durham defines, examines and illustrates what the conscience is in relation to God our Creator.
    One of the problems with Jonathan Leeman is that he seems to think that a person (and his conscience) is subject to the dictates of the church elders who can in their declarations consign one’s future condition to heaven or hell.

    The following are excerpts from a review of Leeman’s position by Joseph Minich which can be found in full here – https://mereorthodoxy.com/reviewing-jonathan-leemans-political-church-pt-1/

    “The embassy does not stand “in-between” the host nation and the citizen. Rather, the relationship of the citizen or of the would-be citizen to both is immediate. And so, the authority of the embassy is exercised in the very presence of the King who works above and alongside it. If the embassy says one is not a citizen, but the Bible says one is, the embassy does not speak for the King. What is more, the world can, in principle, evaluate the veracity of the embassy’s claims because the word is as public as the institution which (at another level) mediates it.”

    “Most immediately, the free conscience is the immediate relation that one has to God which cannot be accessed by men. This is not to say that states and despots don’t try. The history of the human race is a history of social engineers, psychological manipulation, the force of threat or persuasion to follow a certain path, etc. But ultimately, the conscience cannot be forced. It is free in relation to God, and this was brought into stark relief in the Reformation.”

    This last point that the conscience is free in relation to God, is the point Durham made that n the 17th century and is as relevant today as it was then.


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    Submit means at most coordinate and not outmanoeuvre (like gears in an old fashioned car making lovely crunching noises). When the “leaders” are outmanoeuvring their inferiors, as if themselves exempt from that rule, it’s time for those inferiors to do likewise.

    Your assent to your degrees of inference on real, and NOT alleged, meanings in Scripture as entirety, is sufficient to afford you “assurance”. The Great Commission is not a Small Commission: “teach them EVERYTHING I have instructed you”, not meagre and twisted fragments.

    Kingdom = where gift trading “economy” runs, God’s spiritual providence for us through each other’s prayers and belief giving: Is 55, 58, 61, and James, and the Parables. The opposite of being made passive. The fivefold are not to be vetoed or rationed.

    Unless you are significantly volunteering, your beliefs or quality of “commitment” don’t need checking out. Otherwise, your fellows can take you as you come, doesn’t Jesus always say that?

    One doesn’t need painting into any corner by strongarmers / henchpeople when they aren’t honest about what the package deal is (mission creeps), or when it is absurd. Go cafeteria I say: eat everything on the (real) menu, but not all at once. “Love believes all things”. Meantime we can use our nous for ourselves. Real truthfulness is not only cumulative but speaks for itself as soon as it gets started: because logic is about honesty.


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    JDV: Ignore all the scandals and “moral failing” in churches involved with the SBC , TGC, and so forth, and just lead with submission without a priority on a grievous wolf or hireling check, is that it? Don’t sweat the concentration of power under a few people or some guy who’s had a “vision“ and sets up the power and financial structure for him, his wife and family, and people who he generally selects — often thanks to what he has been “shown“ in the “vision“ — because he and his selections are to be ceded submission and authority, is that it?

    I mean, all I have to do is think about one of the local New Cal churches here, whose pastor is telling everyone they aren’t affiliated with anyone, but they are SBC and 9 Marks. It’s just one flat-out lie, so what else are they lying about? And we’ve seen hundreds of pastors like that on TWW, including the president of the SBC who conveniently forgot to tell the Summit they were SBC until he ran for president (thinking back to all those angry Summit members attacking people talking about it on Twitter insisting they were nondenom).

    If I can’t even trust that what they say about their church membership is true, why would I believe them about theology?


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    A church can seem really excellent…until one has, for example, a marriage issue. Then you find out the elders (or at least the one who is deemed in your church to be a marriage guy/counselor) subscribes to Love & Respect by Eggerichs. Uh oh. This guy now suggests all the simplistic and mostly wrong and ineffective advice from that discredited book and you are expected to agree. I didn’t sign up for Love & Respect when I joined!


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    Great post. I especially approve of holding “leaders” to account. If they want to be “leaders”, then we should “test” what they say.
    Another concept that I agree with: How we “do church” should NOT be just “appealing” to our 21st century culture. Another concept that I find “appealing” with liturgy and tradition is the very fact that it has been done “this way” for a VERY long time….. i.e. there is something “there” that transcends the “shallowness” of our current culture….
    I have had the privilege of visiting a number of European cities, starting in my 30’s. Since I like history, I was drawn to the old buildings, especially the cathedrals…. they inspire awe in me…. I can not even image what they did to, at least some, peasants in 12-18 century… while the cathedrals can turn into idolatry, like any man made effort, they do not to me…. they do just the opposite…. unlike the Walmart like warehouse churches of today with the fog machines and “worship leaders” gyrating to the beat in skinny jeans..


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    ishy,

    Exactly….
    intellectual integrity is not a strong point of evangelicalism or fundamentalism…


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    My sense is that the churches in US have not done a great job of adapting to the loss of their cultural hegemony, that has taken place in recent centuries, the eras of “modernity” and “post-modernity” (though, paradoxically, the use of biblical texts for the purposes of exercise of power reflects, I think, a fundamentally post-modern approach. Perhaps the churches were actually already post-modern long ago).

    There are times in the history of the people of God in which it’s hard to discern what God is “up to.” I suspect that we are in such a period now, analogous to the uncertainty of the inter-testamental period (a period in which, I believe, there was a proliferation of mutually incompatible religious ideologies within Old Israel). That period ended in the 2nd half of the first Century with the overthrow of the old religious order.

    I suspect that the theology, and especially the ecclesiology and eschatology, that seemed “fit for purpose” during the long era of christian hegemony in Europe may not work as well in different circumstances.

    Perhaps a rethink is in order. NT Wright has proposed an approach that, as I understand it, reads the Scriptures first as history and only then as theological source material. A more radical approach is that of Andrew Perriman, who sees the eschatological horizons of the NT as being mostly in the early centuries of the AD era, encompassing the downfall of Old Israel and the subsequent downfall of Roman paganism. Wright, for the most part, not too radically adjusts prior thinking; Perriman does extensive remodeling.

    The churches are certainly in crisis. Perhaps theology will ride to the rescue, but I suspect that it will not be precisely the theology or theologies that served the churches well during the period of their supremacy.


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    I believe the SBC has lost members because folks simply cannot stomach Calvinism. And because some cannot stomach any more Jesus is my boyfriend music. I believe the mainlines lost their more conservative members. I believe many are finding they connect with Jesus better outside church, and finding creative ways to still fellowship with other believers. Many are just tired of watching performances. One big church near us has tons more people at SS than at their worship services (contemporary, emotionally manipulative.) I know folks who are not RCC but practice many of the ways of personal devotion popular among them, and often visit their churches when there is no Mass occurring.

    That is all ok. Remember, Jesus was not too popular with the religious leaders of His day, either. Same story second verse. And He either is already or will soon clear out the money changers again.

    And it is happening across all denominations.


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    Lowlandseer: One of the problems with Jonathan Leeman is that he seems to think that a person (and his conscience) is subject to the dictates of the church elders who can in their declarations consign one’s future condition to heaven or hell.

    The following are excerpts from a review of Leeman’s position by Joseph Minich which can be found in full here – https://mereorthodoxy.com/reviewing-jonathan-leemans-political-church-pt-1/

    “… If the embassy says one is not a citizen, but the Bible says one is, the embassy does not speak for the King. …”

    It’s one thing for church folks to describe actions that will send someone to hell, but another entirely for them to believe they can send them.

    Personally I prefer churches that encourage faith, hope, and love. One can live a full Christian life without terror of hell. In all the hours not spent preaching about SINNNNNNNNNN and THE DEVILLLLLLLL, pastors can teach an awful lot about surviving hardship, feeding the hungry, deepening one’s love for spouse and children and neighbor, being good stewards, and all manner of other topics covered in the Bible.


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    Maybe this has been covered somewhere already, but does anyone know when membership contracts started? I don’t know of any example of this in the New Testament.


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    Michael in UK: Submit means at most coordinate and not outmanoeuvre (like gears in an old fashioned car making lovely crunching noises). When the “leaders” are outmanoeuvring their inferiors, as if themselves exempt from that rule, it’s time for those inferiors to do likewise.

    One doesn’t need painting into any corner by strongarmers / henchpeople when they aren’t honest about what the package deal is (mission creeps), or when it is absurd. Go cafeteria I say: eat everything on the (real) menu, but not all at once. “Love believes all things”. Meantime we can use our nous for ourselves. Real truthfulness is not only cumulative but speaks for itself as soon as it gets started: because logic is about honesty.

    Thank you for this.


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    …to renew the contemporary church in the ancient gospel of Christ ?

    hmmm…

    They (TGC) mean Calvinism,
    A false gospel.

    The REAL ancient gospel of Christ?

    …whoever will may come. That is what Jesus said…

    Not distortion theologian John Calvins only the elect garbage.

    Get the real thing baby…


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    Godith: Uh oh. This guy now suggests all the simplistic and mostly wrong and ineffective advice from that discredited book and you are expected to agree.

    The choice of book does give clues about a church. Simplistic books appeal to shallow people. Counseling should never be shallow. Churches should encourage depth of faith and of understanding. Shallow people do not know how to do that.

    Telling shallow church leaders about marital woes can lead to headaches inside and outside the home. They might dispense unworkable advice, or even give orders. They might take sides, exacerbating the problem instead of looking for the best solution. They might also “dutifully” make sure that all the leaders know, along with the leaders’ wives and anyone else they think should be monitoring the situation in the marriage.

    Therapy is a better bet, if only because the therapist has to protect confidentiality and will therefore not broadcast the couple’s business to the church. Seeking counsel outside the church also lets the couple continue to use the church as a place of comfort during a time of private hardship.


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    i think joe carter and jonathon leeman are the amabassadors of Control Freakery Nation, responding to the blinking purple alert of losing control.


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    Friend,

    Yup…


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    Calvinableism is eating real peoples faith, hope, and trust…


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    Heather: I don’t know of any example of this in the New Testament.

    There is no example in the New Testament. It is extra bricks added to your backpack.


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    The excerpts feel distant and cold toward Jesus. The terms “Christ” and “Jesus” are mentioned but He is held at arm’s length. He is their professed reason for rules and rituals but I hear nothing about a relationship, of drawing near to Him in devotion or liturgy or prayer. It sounds far more like a business contract than a marriage proposal, yet they wonder why people aren’t attracted to their sterile concept of an unapproachable, unrelatable God.


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    Really good post and analysis. Most of the language they use to describe their theology and their membership and discipline is vague and malleable. When that happens, when people are deliberately not straight with you, there is almost always some level of deception and dishonesty going on. Count on it.

    I’m shopping for a car right now, and I think the only people who are better at obfuscation and evasion and mushy language than these church leaders are probably car sales people.

    My goal in finding a car is much the same as it would be in finding a church. Find the person who is open, honest and gives you straightforward answers to your questions, and who listens to and cares about your needs. It’s shocking how few people in the world — whether church leaders or car dealers — will actually do those things and behave decently.


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    Heather,

    Thomas Goodwin, a leading Non-Conformist in the 1600s promoted such covenants but was opposed by John Goodwin (no relation) who said that it was an unnecessary imposition on a person’s conscience and that the Bible defined the nature of Fellowship much better than any man-made idea. (Vol 11 of Goodwin’s Works)


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    Non-mainline Protestants have NEVER cared that much for rituals.

    Fundamentalists tie them to Catholicism (which is at a minimum considered the “whore of Babylon” in Revelation 17, and whoever is the sitting Pope at the Rapture will reveal himself to be the Antichrist). Evangelicals express concern that the rituals replace a true relationship with Christ, and creeds replace the Bible itself. Pentecostals don’t want anything that might hinder “the work of the Holy Ghost”.

    It is largely a 180-degree reaction in opposition. No Advent services. No responsive readings or doxologies (even traditional hymns are going away, never mind that Carrie Underwood’s latest album of 13 traditional songs hit #1 on the Christian album chart). Forget calling any of the apostles “saints”. Stained glass may be found in older buildings but almost never in the newer ones. Seeker churches won’t have nativity scenes at Christmas and may not even have a cross at all.


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    Heather: when membership contracts started?

    My perception is that this is a 21st century phenomenon, that was started as a way of managing the risk of civil suits brought by aggrieved church members who objected to the discipline they were placed under.

    On that interpretation, it would appear to be basically a “9Marks” phenomenon, given the centrality of discipline/control in that vision of “what congregations of Christ ought to be.” Of course, there could be other authoritarian-minded church movements that find this risk-management approach attractive even if they don’t conform perfectly in other respects to the “9Marks” template.


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    “surge of Reformed theology has divided Southern Baptist churches and raised questions about the future of missions. Its exuberant young advocates reject generic evangelicalism and tout the benefits of in-depth biblical doctrine”

    Good Lord, the American church can’t take much more of this “in-depth biblical doctrine”! The nation needs the Gospel, not ‘their’ gospel.


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    Glenn Stanton wrote a book, The Myth of the Dying Church, which shows that the statistics of church decline are often misrepresented.

    He agrees that there is an increase in people identifying as “nones” over past years. But his research (which comes from generally secular sources) notes that most of the “nones” come from families which were “Christmas and Easter” church attenders; the children, instead of claiming the same (virtually non-existent) faith as their parents, are now being more honest about what they (don’t) believe and answering accordingly. Stories like Joshua Harris and Abraham Piper, in his studies, are the exception, not the rule.

    So it appears that the older generations who attended church at Christmas and Easter are dying out, and their children aren’t bothering to follow suit. Throw in the COVID pandemic where nominal attenders find that online services are so much more convenient and allow for anonymity (plus if they don’t like what one church does, they simply never log on again and find something else), and those numbers probably get worse. BUT — will it result in those who remain being more committed to their faith? And those congregations which remained strong, might they pick up followers from congregations which either disbanded, or who left because they felt their prior one was too willing to “follow the crowd” and not the Lord, and thus become even stronger?


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    Ava Aaronson: Beginning: “and a strong coxswain to guide them.” William H. McRaven

    Having a son who rows (HS and college), I liked this imagery. The coxswain is not physically strong (in fact they look for small people who don’t weigh much!) but good ones have intelligence, confidence and authority. Rowers are taught not to move an oar w/o the coxswain’s command; they supervise the shells (boats) both on land and in the water, help steer the shell, avoid obstacles, keep it within the racing lane, and also heartily encourage the rowers to put forth their best effort individually and as a team (to row well, all rowers need to be in sync with their strokes).
    Seems a fitting image.


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    “Matt Chandler, a Calvinist Southern Baptist … now beginning to embrace liturgical practices”

    Chandler ain’t no dummy. He sees that SBC’s Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence is in trouble, so he’s reinventing himself … whatever is necessary to keep his megachurch afloat. Besides, a little liturgy never hurt anybody!


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    “Joe Carter claims that we, the ones who are church-goers, must submit to the authority of the leaders”

    Whereas, the Biblical model indicates that church-goers choose leaders who are in submission to them under congregational governance. The Kingdom of God on earth is activated in a community when both clergy & laity work together in love to fulfill the Great Commission, submitting to the authority of Christ. New Calvinism has supplanted the authority of Christ and substituted their own leadership scheme to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate the pew.


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    “What exactly constitutes *authority?* How far does that authority extend?”

    Religious groups get in trouble when they dodge the divine plan in this regard. Jesus is supposed to have absolute Lordship over His Church. ALL authority is to be His in heaven and in earth. Yet, Christ has almost no authority or influence in the average church. Men have set up religious structures which decide they must have that authority. Sure we need systems in place and leadership to guide the way, but when Christ is removed from the equation as “Lord of All”, we are left with a feeble attempt to do church and conduct it without the Trinity steering the course.


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    John: Find the person who is open, honest and gives you straightforward answers to your questions, and who listens to and cares about your needs. It’s shocking how few people in the world — whether church leaders or car dealers — will actually do those things and behave decently.

    You would expect Xtians to be way better at this. My personal experience is that there is not much difference between non-believers and believers.


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    Sowre-Sweet Dayes: My personal experience is that there is not much difference between non-believers and believers.

    I have a friend who has been a long-time waitress. She told me that she hates working Sundays because of church folks who complain about the food, chew her out if an order gets mixed up a bit, and often don’t tip. And just an hour before, they were studying the Bible and singing praises to the Lord! Such poor testimony of “Christians” is another reason church membership is in decline … they are not recruiting prospective new members acting like that!


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    Heather: Maybe this has been covered somewhere already, but does anyone know when membership contracts started? I don’t know of any example of this in the New Testament.

    I note that for many centuries the recognized church(es) could use the power of the state to get resources (legally required tithes to the established church, direct support by the government, the current German surcharge on income tax that goes the taxpayer’s registered denomination/religion [and you are frequently in by baptism]). Some US states had established churches (New Hampshire until 1817, Connecticut 1818, Massachusetts 1833). Many of the other colonies had the Church of England as the established church but the American Revolution broke that connection and the new Episcopal Church never became established de jure.


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    EricL: The excerpts feel distant and cold toward Jesus. The terms “Christ” and “Jesus” are mentioned but He is held at arm’s length.

    I think it was Kierkegaard who said, paraphrasing, academic treatment of the Bible is just another way of avoiding dealing with Jesus.


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    Max:
    “Joe Carter claims that we, the ones who are church-goers, must submit to the authority of the leaders”

    Whereas, the Biblical model indicates that church-goers choose leaders who are in submission to them under congregational governance.The Kingdom of God on earth is activated in a community when both clergy & laity work together in love to fulfill the Great Commission, submitting to the authority of Christ.New Calvinism has supplanted the authority of Christ and substituted their own leadership scheme to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate the pew.

    With all due respect and deference, I’d be careful about asserting what “the biblical model” supposedly dictates.

    The earliest Church Fathers — who knew the apostles personally — describe a liturgical, hierarchical church with apostolic succession and a distinctive form of liturgy (Ministry of the Word culminating in the Celebration of the Eucharist). Ignatius of Antioch (who knew Peter), Clement of Rome (ditto), Polycarp, and Justin Martyr spring to mind. These dudes came along way, way before Constantine supposedly wrecked everything — and long before the Baptists showed up. One can write them off as proof that the early Church went off the rails right at the very outset (so much for Gates of Hell not prevailing!)…but nonetheless, it is what it is.


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    Max: I have a friend who has been a long-time waitress. She told me that she hates working Sundays because of church folks

    They are eating out, while often tut-tutting about the Sabbath being profaned by the worship of Mammon.

    When we were house hunting in a rural stronghold of SBC, Brethren, and Church of Christ, several times we got breakfast in a local restaurant. The church people would march in, clad in their Sunday finery, and glower at us modest shlubs in our jeans and tees; OBviously we weren’t dressed to appear before the LORD! I don’t know if they were dissing us on purpose, but it was a hint about the local culture, and one reason we never bought a place there.


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    Friend: The church people would march in, clad in their Sunday finery, and glower at us modest shlubs in our jeans and tees; OBviously we weren’t dressed to appear before the LORD!

    “Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one was a Pharisee, the other was a tax-collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed like this with himself, ‘O God, I do thank you that I am not like the rest of mankind, greedy, dishonest, impure, or even like that tax-collector over there. I fast twice every week; I give away a tenth-part of all my income.’ But the tax-collector stood in a distant corner, scarcely daring to look up to Heaven, and with a gesture of despair, said, ‘God, have mercy on a sinner like me.’ I assure you that he was the man who went home justified in God’s sight, rather than the other one. For everyone who sets himself up as somebody will become a nobody, and the man who makes himself nobody will become somebody.” (Luke 18 Phillips)


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    Max,

    I’ll respond with a nicer anecdote. One time we gave a small donation to help replace the scoreboard at a school. All donors were invited to a simple but welcoming thank-you party before a game. We said hi to an older guy who was standing off to one side, smiling and quietly watching. Somehow the topic of minivan repair came up, as it does in gatherings of parents. Our new friend knew all about minivans and offered good advice. Gradually we deduced that he owned the string of car dealerships that had bought an ad on the scoreboard. He was just stopping by to learn a little more about the school.

    I don’t know the man’s religion, but found him humble and generous.


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    Dan: Kierkegaard: … academic treatment of the Bible is just another way of avoiding dealing with Jesus.

    Lot of that going on in Jesus’ day, too, as that demographic would pick verbal/semantic fights with the Son of God. Pathetic. Teeny tiny hearts, ginormous brains.


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    John: My goal in finding a car is much the same as it would be in finding a church. Find the person who is open, honest and gives you straightforward answers to your questions, and who listens to and cares about your needs. It’s shocking how few people in the world — whether church leaders or car dealers — will actually do those things and behave decently.

    Makes sense.


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    Erp,

    Pew rents.

    Then along came the Evangelical FREE. (And guys like George Müller.)

    So we regress.


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    Ava Aaronson: Pew rents.

    “Free church” means more than one thing, but it did refer to pew rents. These funds helped a lot of closed churches reopen after the Civil War. One of our local congregations did not become a free church until the 1920s. It might sound completely wrong to us, but congregations were not at all sure how to keep going if they did not have rents. They had to find ways to keep going through entirely voluntary contributions (not mandatory tithes, either).


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    Friend: I don’t know the man’s religion, but found him humble and generous.

    Some of the most humble and generous folks I know ain’t got no religion.
    I’ve even known a few of those who found Christ and simply extended their existing humility and generosity to the work of the Lord – they made great Christians!


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    Friend: They are eating out, while often tut-tutting about the Sabbath being profaned by the worship of Mammon.

    My waitress friend said some of them cuss like sailors!


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    Max: My waitress friend said some of them cuss like sailors!

    And stiff the servers … in Jesus’ name.


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    Ava Aaronson: stiff the servers … in Jesus’ name

    Not everybody that goes to church is the Church. Some of the meanest folks on the planet are church members! On the other hand, some of the most genuine God-fearing people go there, too. Separating the tares from the weeds at the final harvest will be an awful thing to observe. When some church members are moved to the left of the Judgment seat will be a sad sight indeed.

    A true story … For a while, my daughter was office manager at an engineering firm. She often had a particular subcontractor come to the office cursing loudly about something. Our family visited a church one Sunday and when a deacon stepped forward to pray at offering time, my daughter leaned over and whispered in my ear “That’s the cussing sub I told you about, Dad.” He prayed a beautiful prayer, however!


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    I have to tell a story about my daughter who was 18 at the time. She was serving at a local restaurant where really the kitchen was too small to keep up with the orders plus a cook was out that day. She serves this table of Christians and notices that where you place a tip one of the adults is writing a Bible verse in place of money. My daughter asks what is going on and the lady commences to tell her the service was slow so no tip, my daughter then lol commences to tell the lady in no uncertain terms that if Jesus was sitting at her table he would say “ tip her.” Well that sets them off back and forth which finally ends when my daughter tells the lady do what you want but in my opinion , people that don’t tip go to hell. Then all hell really broke loose, the manager was called over and apologized and she was sent to to the back to wait till those customers left ( manager ask her to please not get into it with the customers). Christians create more atheists on Sunday than any other day. I tip well, thank them and write on the receipt “ thanks for the good service.” Love my daughters spunk!!! Tip well in place of a cheap tip and a Bible tract!


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    Submit to one another is NOT the same as “submit to pastors and elders, who don’t submit to anyone.” Nor do most elders I have met seem to have much idea of what SERVANT-leadership means. How did they ever get the idea that since they are in that position they must know everything? Do they teach that in seminary? If so, the seminaries need to be closed.


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    Friend: clad in their Sunday finery,

    I think of this as “fear of man” clothing. It’s what you wear when you are worried about what other people will think of your appearance.

    I confess to doing this myself at times, but I try to limit it to appointments at banks or courts.


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    Lowlandseer: Thomas Goodwin, a leading Non-Conformist in the 1600s promoted such covenants but was opposed by John Goodwin (no relation) who said that it was an unnecessary imposition on a person’s conscience and that the Bible defined the nature of Fellowship much better than any man-made idea. (Vol 11 of Goodwin’s Works)

    Thanks for this information, Lowlandseer. I read the chapter you refer to and side with John Goodwin on membership covenants. Anyone else looking to read about this can find the the complete works of Thomas Goodwin here:
    http://digitalpuritan.net/thomas-goodwin/

    The specific chapter Lowlandseer referred to may be found here:
    http://www.digitalpuritan.net/Digital%20Puritan%20Resources/Goodwin%2C%20Thomas/Works%20%28Vol.11%29%20Ind%20Titles/%5BTG%5D%20Two%20Letters%20Concerning%20a%20Church%20Covenant.pdf


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    Justice has been served.


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    I found the first paragraph on the importance of “conforming to Scriptures” combined with the emphasis on increasing memberships as rather ironic. I’m having trouble recalling any of the churches in the NT having membership scrolls.

    There is the Book of Life at the very end though.


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    Mark R: Non-mainline Protestants have NEVER cared that much for rituals.

    Oh, but from an anthropological perspective, non-mainline Protestants have ritual, it’s just not immediately obvious because they don’t hand out an order of service. But non-mainline Protestants have rituals around everything that is said and done in the church, from who does certain things, to the language used, to how people dress…I could go on and on. It just looks unscripted. But the services are just as planned out and ritualized as if one were going to mass. You’d see it if you went a half dozen Sundays and kept careful notes.


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    Ava Aaronson: Pew rents.

    It depends on the congregation, but one of the ways Jewish synagogues made their budgets in the past is by pew rents for the High Holy Days, which I am told, tend to be oversubscribed and the rent is basically to ensure there’s enough space and they’re not violating the fire code. Given the coronavirus, that wasn’t really an issue last fall, but both last year and this year one of my friends purchased a Passover box from his congregation which contained everything one would need to hold a socially-distant Seder, including some food, like macaroons, which are kosher for Passover. (They did Zoom Seders!)


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    Sòpwyth,

    Sòp, you’ve summed it up entirely (allowing for disguised copycats also). A major and old denomination effectively abolished belief and prayer circa 1959 (caution: this is not simplistic), undermining the position of other churches and of elements with integrity in the world.

    Sadly, bitter grapes in the shape of the evils of British and Spanish Empires and their successor regimes / commercial systems they prompted, plus the bad rule promoted by de la Berulle in France, has set the teeth of the whole world’s children on edge.

    Church leaders’ wrongly excluding from our activities all pleading with God about past wrongs in our nations, has denied and removed one of our main purposes and tasks asked by God, which it would be the equal and priestly privilege of us each to fruitfully join in. I am astounded how many people still comment that Manifest Destiny Falwell Senior was genuine.

    I’ve just finished the powerful “Day Of The Wolf” and Coleman Luck says one of his other books is about combining faith and politics uncritically. “Pray for your rule-ers” means that as they are agents of rule we should plead and advocate with God about quality of rule (things that come through people are not being ad hominised). God’s ordinances are permissive.

    Most of Jeremiah & Lamentations is about God’s critique of the false revivalism in Josiah’s time. “Put your face in the dust, there may yet be hope”.


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    Max: “in-depth …”

    wrong kind of depth!

    Lowlandseer:“ … the conscience … is free in relation to God, and this was brought into stark relief in the Reformation.”

    This last point that the conscience is free in relation to God, is the point Durham made [i]n the 17th century and is as relevant today as it was then.

    It is worth remembering by newfangled strongarmers inside and outside enclaves, that even the Reformation largely subverted itself.

    Friend: wild radical stuff … fainting couch

    I know what you mean!


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    I don’t think the decline is due to just sexual abuse, though it is certainly a factor. It’s due to psychological and theological abuse as well, thoroughly documented on this website – and in this very post.


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    Checkout is never?

    hmmm…

    Joe Carter of The Calvinist false Gospel Coalition cult organization, With the Help of Calvinist Jonathan Leeman of the 9Marks Calvinist false gospel cult organization, Plans to Stop Church Membership Decline in their US churches By Demanding closed ranks stricter Church Membership rules, expanded sin sniffing, and detailed documented parishioner records keeping.

    How delightful…

    Intern MIssion,
    Hotel Calvinesta
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRXLLtkII90

    ..


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    Life in the Calvinesta church fast lane?

    hmmm…

    Follow these Calvinist 501c3 church leaders, and your bound to loose your mind in short order?

    (gump)

    Could b.

    Be careful out there…

    The light is flashing red.
    ..


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    David: I’m having trouble recalling any of the churches in the NT having membership scrolls.

    The Church of the Living God is a free church. Every believer is a member of the Body of Christ … s/he is free to attend wherever they please without the constraints of a membership contract. You can attend Sunday School at one church and cross the street to worship at another, while using your “tithe” to support a ministry to the homeless in your community or an international evangelistic outreach. A believer has the freedom to go and give as the Spirit leads. You can skip church on Sunday and be the Church to hurting people who are unchurched (you’ll find them in your community if you look). Every believer is a priest … every believer is a part of the ministry … every believer has a role in the Great Commission. The laity is just as important as the clergy. The real Church is not made of bricks and mortar, but living stones. In Jesus’ church, there are no distinctions in race, class, or gender. You are free to fellowship with believers of other denominations where the Main Thing is the main thing. Being a member of a local gathering of believers has its benefits in fellowship and worship one with another, but so does the greater Body of Christ. The Church of the Living God is a free church. When you are enslaved with a membership contract to a particular place and pulpit, you are not free. You are on a Heavenly membership roll … act like it!


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    Max,

    Wonderful comment.


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    Michael in UK: wrong kind of depth!

    The New Calvinists are swimming in shallow water thinking they are deep.


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    Just because there is a church membership decline in America, doesn’t mean that the Church is on the decline. The organized church in many places with diverse expressions of faith is not necessarily the Church. I personally know many real-deal believers who are done with church, but not done with Jesus. (New Calvinism ran most of them off)


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    Michael in UK: Most of Jeremiah & Lamentations is about God’s critique of the false revivalism in Josiah’s time. “Put your face in the dust, there may yet be hope”.

    False revivalism. False leadership.
    Also, the book of Ezekiel. The wheels left the Temple.
    Where we go on Sunday … does God show up? If not, it’s not church. The essential element of church is God showing up (all else is optional).


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    Max: A believer has the freedom to go and give as the Spirit leads.

    “Stand fast therefore in your liberty, wherefore Christ has set us free, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.” – from the book of Galatians


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    Ava Aaronson,

    Great passage! Paul was referring to a “yoke of bondage” of Jewish law … much like the yoke of bondage of New Calvinist my-way-or-the-highway law (enslaving women to the “beauty of complementarity”, ungodly subordination of Jesus, authoritarian control by church leaders, aberrant theology, etc.)


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Oh, but from an anthropological perspective, non-mainline Protestants have ritual, it’s just not immediately obvious

    Thank you for this comment and Oh! how true this is! I used to play acoustic guitar in our contemporary worship service team. Nothing was left to chance. The order of the service (the welcome, the songs, any prayers, the sermon, the invitation, etc.), verses of song sung, when to instruct the congregation to stand, when to sit, when to raise their hands, what comments the singers were to say between songs and verses, when to pray, what to pray, how to smile, when to smile, when to be serious, the food on the breakfast table, the position of the chairs and tables, the clothes we wore, and on it went. Everything was ritualistically choreographed. We attended (I suppose still are) big seminars to teach you how to choreograph the contemporary service.

    But reciting the Lord’s prayer was banned because that was defined as “liturgical”.

    This was part of my disillusionment with contemporary worship services. Today I welcome the traditional Methodist liturgy. Other denominations have very rich liturgies as well. The irony is that liturgy can free the soul to center oneself in Christ and receive grace and peace and hope.


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    Dave,

    “I have met seem to have much idea of what SERVANT-leadership means.”
    ++++++++++++++

    in my observation, “servant leadership” was coined as PR for male headship. but also extending to “pastoral authority”. sort of a fairytale halloween costume for power and control over other human beings.

    gah… do other religions have a propensity to come up with the most campy-without-realizing-it terms, too?

    (i really need a word for campy-without-realizing it. anyone got one?)

    (just in case a former pastor says, “elastigirl, i see you’ve opted out of church. tell me all about it. i want to hear everything”, i want to be ready.)


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    Max: the yoke of bondage of New Calvinist

    IMHO, any spiritual path that follows a man/woman who is not Jesus is a dead end and a yoke of bondage, be it Calvin, Moore, Schaeffer, Nouwen, Wright, McKnight, neo-Calvin, Luther, Peter, Lewis, Campbell, Barth, Piper, Paul, Hybels, Warren, popes, pastors, book writers, bakers, candlestick makers. Good, bad, mediocre, but none to follow.

    The wonderful experience of TWW is that there is no one here to follow, no collection, no contract. Read the post, savor the comments, add something or not. It’s community. Non-authoritarian. Foot of the cross. Level ground. Sharing the journey. Side-by-side. Together. Listening. Seeing things. The revelation of (not I know more & better than you so purcha$e my book, pay for my conference, sign my covenant) sharing what folks are experiencing, here, there, everywhere. The mosaic comes together and that’s the revelation. The Body of Christ where all faithful followers are equally needed and valued to create the picture, the 1008+ puzzle.

    I feel since reading TWW, my vision has improved. How’s that for the aging process!


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    Ava Aaronson: I feel since reading TWW, my vision has improved. How’s that for the aging process!

    Would that be a form of presbyopia… or not? 😉


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    elastigirl: (i really need a word for campy-without-realizing it. anyone got one?)

    Lots:
    Piper, Wilson, Hybels, to name a few.

    The long urban dictionary version:
    Camp (n.) and Campy (adj.): Being so extreme that it has an amusing and sometimes perversely sophisticated appeal. Over the top and farcical, intentionally exaggerated so as not to be taken seriously. Found primarily in television, theatre and motion pictures, camp endeavors for satire and, for those who fully understand and appreciate the risible or easy-to-make-laugh nature of its material; it’s not surprising when it develops a cult following.

    IOW, ridiculous.

    As in Psalm 2 when God sees the “leaders” of this Earth, and from His Heavens, our Lord laughs, at the pathetically laughable fake leaders. (In Psalm 1, we are warned not to mock others, so apparently in Psalm 2, God reserves that right for Himself.)


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    Friend,

    “several times we got breakfast in a local restaurant. The church people would march in, clad in their Sunday finery, and glower at us modest shlubs in our jeans and tees”
    +++++++++++++

    i bet they looked totally dorky (thinking they’re the elite.) playing the church-people part.

    good example of what i mean by campy-without-realizing-it.

    overdone, overdressed,…church-people halloween costumes, but becoming the character. like someone donning a winged fairy costume or a spiderman costume and believing that’s who they really are.


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    elastigirl: costumes

    Costuming for Christianity. Chollywood, chollywood, Sunday morning Hollywood.

    Have you ever tuned in to all of the local churches online, multiple screens or tabs, and compared their attire? And hair get-up? Then their sermons? Their canned videos? And their appeals (money, contracts, attendance, volunteerism, voting – yes, politics from the pulpit)?

    There’s a playbook someplace. Marketing. Branding.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    “Piper, Wilson, Hybels, to name a few.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    so, as adjectives, then?

    we could just say “gawwwwwd, things were piper today”, “you’re being really hybels, and it’s obnoxious.”
    .
    .
    on the off-chance i’d have to explain things, is there an old-fashioned word for this fine-tuned the definition:

    campy-without-realizing-it-believing-it’s-ordinary-and-taking-oneself-so-seriously

    sort of reverse-engingeering vocabulary, here.

    any suggestions?


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    Ava Aaronson: There’s a playbook someplace. Marketing. Branding.

    New Calvinism would not exist without the Internet; cyberspace is the playbook. The young reformers mimic each other in method, message, and modus operandi, borrowing sermons and ministry gimmicks as needed. They wake up each morning to tweet and retweet Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Dever Drivel, etc. They certainly don’t go to their prayer closet to linger before God for a fresh word from Him for their church.


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    Ava Aaronson: I feel since reading TWW, my vision has improved.

    I’ve noticed.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    “There’s a playbook someplace. Marketing. Branding.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i see it as a vortex they all get caught up in, surrounded by some kind of forcefield so all they have are inbred ideas and all they know is what they see everyone else doing, all of which become ‘biblical’.

    i’m sure someone has a word for that….


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    linda: I believe the SBC has lost members because folks simply cannot stomach Calvinism … Jesus is my boyfriend music … tired of watching performances

    Yep, those things have emptied a lot of Southern Baptist churches in my area. There’s nothing to it!

    I’ve never had a big problem with form, as long as there is some substance to it. SBC’s new reformers claim to be contemporary and culturally-relevant … but I’ve found Jesus to be the eternal contemporary, meeting believers throughout the ages in time and place. In their attempts to fill the house, the NeoCals have largely left Jesus out of the equation. It’s all “Gawd”, with only occasional mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. Heck, they talk more about Calvin and Piper than they do Christ!


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    I just came across a story of an ex-cop with 122 child molestation charges against him and more victims coming out of the woodwork likely leading to even more charges. Talk about evil in a place of power!


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    elastigirl: all of which become ‘biblical’ …

    … with Gospel-centered music, Gospel-centered marriages, Gospel-centered books, Gospel-centered lattes, Gospel-centered this, Gospel-centered that. All the time, never preaching ‘the’ GOSPEL!


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    Q. Your doubts about how Christianity is now being practiced in various 501c3 churches is warranted?


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    elastigirl: totally dorky

    I’d say the word is safe. This is a safe dress, not too tight or baggy, not too short or eccentrically long, my hairdo is safe, I’m safe wearing these earrings and shoes, hubby’s safe in the suit he always wears and his Father’s Day tie…

    There’s nothing wrong with blending in. What costs is the energy put into learning so much conformity, and the fear, resentment, rejection, and hostility associated with not conforming.


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    Max: … with Gospel-centered music, Gospel-centered marriages, Gospel-centered books, Gospel-centered lattes, Gospel-centered this, Gospel-centered that.All the time, never preaching ‘the’ GOSPEL!

    Until “Gospel” becomes the next “Smurf” or “Marclar” or “Like, Y’know” – a totally-meaningless word that everyone uses every other word.


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    Max: elastigirl: all of which become ‘biblical’ …

    … with Gospel-centered music, Gospel-centered marriages, Gospel-centered books, Gospel-centered lattes, Gospel-centered this, Gospel-centered that.

    And after 20+ years living in such a Gospel-Centered Existence, “Gospel” will acquire the baggage “GOD’s Boot, My Face, STOMP! STOMP! STOMP!”.


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    Friend: I’d say the word is safe. This is a safe dress, not too tight or baggy, not too short or eccentrically long, my hairdo is safe, I’m safe wearing these earrings and shoes, hubby’s safe in the suit he always wears and his Father’s Day tie…

    “SAFE? THERE’S NO PLACE THAT’S SAFE!”
    — Sandor “The Hound” Clegayne, Game of Thrones


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    MaxThey certainly don’t go to their prayer closet to linger before God for a fresh word from Him for their church.

    “Who needs God when WE Have Calvin’s Institutes, Piper’s Points, Mohler’s Moments, Dever’s Drivels! WE Have God All Figured Out!”


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    Max: Michael in UK: wrong kind of depth!

    The New Calvinists are swimming in shallow water thinking they are deep.

    And Reality has racks full of depth charges.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: But non-mainline Protestants have rituals around everything that is said and done in the church, from who does certain things, to the language used, to how people dress…I could go on and on. It just looks unscripted. But the services are just as planned out and ritualized as if one were going to mass. You’d see it if you went a half dozen Sundays and kept careful notes.

    A friend of mine pointed this out years ago and it is certainly true. Some churches have everyone speaking out loud in tongues every service and others have this happen absolutely never. Try to find one in the middle, I am not aware of any. Try having one service with no announcements, or no musical instruments, or instruments of any kind in certain churches or no organ and see what happens. Try having a service of quiet in anything but a Quaker church. Try turning off the smoke machines or not singing a top 40 worship tune in other churches for just one service. Have no coffee. Have no sermon. Have no liturgy for just one week or try having it just once in another. Everywhere you go we are all stuck in a ruck. This is an argument that the Holy Spirit is not truly free to do in our churches what it wants. Let God break our traditions just once and see the level of complaining and belly aching that it produces in us. Some take pride in being non-traditional and yet it is just pride in newer traditions as if things inherently old are more evil than new. Yet the Bible appears to suggest that we should mix the two, but who wants to follow that?


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    Mark R: It is largely a 180-degree reaction in opposition.

    “WE MUST DO X BECAUSE ENEMY CHRISTIANS DO NOT-X! GAWD COMMANDS IT!”


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    EricL: The excerpts feel distant and cold toward Jesus. The terms “Christ” and “Jesus” are mentioned but He is held at arm’s length.

    He is their Celebrity Endorsement, nothing more.

    He is their professed reason for rules and rituals but I hear nothing about a relationship, of drawing near to Him in devotion or liturgy or prayer.

    Watch out about going down the “Religion vs Relationship” road. I’ve been on the receiving end of the Weaponized version.

    “For in the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to Be Absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to Be Absolutely Wrong. This does not lead to peace between men.”
    — Thomas Merton


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    Friend: Personally I prefer churches that encourage faith, hope, and love. One can live a full Christian life without terror of hell.

    If you ever gave a “Preach without resorting to Threat of Hell” Challenge, a lot of preachers would just freeze up and start arcing like foil in a microwave.


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    One thing I’ve struggled with regarding Calvinism (and I’m not a Calvinist) is that it seems to be a bait-and-switch. In the Calvinist church that I recently left, the gospel was presented as if it was the free and open invitation of God to all men to put their faith in Christ and be justified. But when I began finding out about Calvinism and what the pastors and many members believed, it seemed to me to contradict the way in which the gospel was presented. This also showed up in the membership documents – there was a membership statement that was a simple evangelical statement of faith (which didn’t mention Calvinism) but then a teaching statement which described the pastors’ convictions (which was Calvinistic). So, I joined under the membership statement and then realized that to really “belong” I needed to subscribe to the teaching statement as well. This was a real bummer because I simply couldn’t do that in good conscience. I’d imagine this might be how a new convert in a Calvinist church might feel after learning more about Calvinism. Does anyone else have experience with dual statements of faith?


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    Friend: a few years ago I read an online article about how nothing scares the new preacher boys of any stripe like old men in suits with a KJV Bible, or older women in long skirts and with their hair up in a bun.

    As luck or fate or the Holy Spirit would have it, our church was soon in process of calling a new pastor. We had both males and females interview. Hubby would not dress up and carried his modern translation, but I played the part. And let me tell you, it was true! I could walk in with a smile on my face and my hand out to welcome the candidate and they took one look and got real….cold. DH was watching them covertly to see what would happen.

    The gist of the article we had read was that those older folks, not trying to dress hip, signaled to the candidates that would be folks who really knew their Bible, were not afraid to speak up, and while not averse to change would definitely make the new leadership show that any change proposed was an improvement. Equally frightening to them were folks that kept the kiddies in the service, either grandparents, neighbors, or young parents. That signaled people who were going to put their families ahead of the church and its “new vision.”

    Strange that seminary had trained them to reject the very people who were assumed to be going to follow the Bible in regard to church leadership.

    And oh–our church rejected all the candidates that behaved that way. Got a young man with his head screwed on straight, and it worked out very well. And yes, we made lots of changes under his leadership.


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    Paul K,

    Very much so….


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    Paul K
    It happened at a wonderful church that I attended. It is a routine known as bait and switch. It is good that you left, as did I. It caused me to really search and I found a great Lutheran church whose pastors have been supportive of me. I’m sorry for what happened to you. I am so glad I got out but it took a couple of fo years to feel that way!


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    Paul K: there was a membership statement that was a simple evangelical statement of faith (which didn’t mention Calvinism) but then a teaching statement which described the pastors’ convictions (which was Calvinistic). So, I joined under the membership statement and then realized that to really “belong” I needed to subscribe to the teaching statement as well.

    Was that the Westminster Confession of Faith?


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    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    I’d love to know more…


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    Max,

    It wasn’t the WCF. It was a statement of faith copied and pasted from MacArthur’s Grace Community Church – I found that out when I was researching it. The pastors had changed one or two things about it – such as de-emphasizing a commitment to pre-trib rapture. I appreciate the WCF’s commitment to emphasizing that God is not the author of sin – language that I didn’t see as explicit in GCC’s statement (feel free to fact check me on this).


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    dee,

    Just to be clear…your previous church had a membership statement and a separate teaching statement? Is this common practice in new-Calvinist churches? I have been looking for churches (not new-Calvinist churches), and there’s not a single one that does it this way.

    I’d definitely classify it as a bait-and-switch. To be a little more generous I’d say it’s information control – withholding or not being forthright with pertinent information from potential members.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Weaponized

    The “relationship” (TM) has to revolve around the self-imported interlopers, and whatever interests they represent (which they might ambiguously dangle in front of you eventually), otherwise they don’t lift the cuss word “religion” from you. Worn the overgrown T shirt (minus pointy hood).


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    Mr. Jesperson: Try having a service of quiet in anything but a Quaker church. Try turning off the smoke machines or not singing a top 40 worship tune in other churches for just one service. Have no coffee. Have no sermon. Have no liturgy for just one week or try having it just once in another. Everywhere you go we are all stuck in a ruck. This is an argument that the Holy Spirit is not truly free to do in our churches what it wants.

    In the Before Times, our congregation had lots of variety within the basic framework (lectionary and certain prayers). Sure, we followed a somewhat predictable liturgy, but our nine or ten services a week were held indoors and out, with different styles of music, lots of different preachers, and a somewhat different crowd showing up each time. The Holy Spirit was present in each of us, and also because we invoked the Holy Spirit in prayer.

    I agree that oppressive routine can stifle the Holy Spirit, but it’s not that hard for a fairly healthy church to keep things both fresh and familiar. It’s a little like family life: if people lovingly watch and listen, there’s always something new even though the day predictably includes meals, chores, work, school, and sleep.


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    dee: It happened at a wonderful church that I attended.

    Formerly wonderful. Formerly attended.

    A lot of this going around. Sometimes voting with one’s feet, pocketbook, time & talents in hand, is the only solution. Their loss.

    Are there seminaries that teach bait-and-switch? Why did this become a thing? It’s like a … pandemic. Seeker sensitive, Mega, Personality Cults – each had their run as a popular formula. Now bait-and-switch is in vogue.


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    Friend: The Holy Spirit was present in each of us, and also because we invoked the Holy Spirit in prayer.

    There is an important distinction to be made between having the Holy Spirit present in members and having it free to do whatever it wants with a meeting. What I have personally seen is that it is allowed only so far as it does not mess up the plans and expectations of the pastor and or members. When Jesus walked the earth He did all kinds of things that were not expected, and many that were hated by the religious right and left in power. Do our church services really look like Jesus? Or would that make us way too uncomfortable? Can we be honest with the answer? Not an attitude that quickly justifies our actions but one that searches the deep things of God to see if we really are as righteous as we think?


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    Paul K: information control – withholding or not being forthright

    = New Calvinism (stealth and deception are modus operandi)


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    Ava Aaronson: Are there seminaries that teach bait-and-switch?

    Don’t let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.

    Max: New Calvinism

    New Jansenism!


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    Mr. Jesperson: Not an attitude that quickly justifies our actions but one that searches the deep things of God to see if we really are as righteous as we think?

    So long as I’m kind and don’t do the kinds of things to others I wouldn’t want done to me, I have all the righteousness I need.
    Real world practice and real world results.


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    linda,

    WOW! You cracked the code AND got the right pastor! Now, what was that verse about serpents and doves? 🙂 🙂 🙂


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    Mr. Jesperson: There is an important distinction to be made between having the Holy Spirit present in members and having it free to do whatever it wants with a meeting.

    I’m having trouble imagining what the Holy Spirit would do if we all got together for worship and simply discarded the form. Then again, as an adult I have mainly attended churches where the person (not an “it”) of the Holy Spirit, or Inner Light as the Quakers believe, was active in worship, in minds, hearts, lives, families, and therefore in communities.

    What do you think would happen if people somehow freed the Holy Spirit to do more?


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    Friend: What do you think would happen if people somehow freed the Holy Spirit to do more?

    The Book of Acts, NT.
    Lots going on, proactively.


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    Max,

    I agree with what you said though I would add I’m currently a member of a Methodist church which is required to become part of the lay leadership. It is important to note that many denominations have membership protocols but in our case people have never been pushed to join, its their choice. And it is more about the commitment to love and pray for each other and nothing about submission or authority or needing permission to leave. In this case it is a minor issue and not a first order doctrine. People do need to understand what type of membership they are signing up for.


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    For Paul K,

    (NOTE…Dee, this message is for PaulK. My earlier comment was tech misdirected for some unknown reason.) thank you.
    .

    PaulK,
    You are presently aware of two gospels wading with one another. This is the crux of this very important matter. One gospel says clearly all are welcome at Christ’s table. Another gospel says that Christ’s table is limited to only those specifically chose by God. One gospel is broad and all inclusive. The other specific and limiting. For some churches, a limited gospel invitation is all they know.

    ..


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    Dear, Muff Potter,

    Hea,

    I prefer to be covered in the righteous of Jesus, and His blood while His is at it. Being overshadow indwelled) by His Holy Spirit is marvelous…

    All of heaven is available…ask for it,

    *grin

    ATB

    Sòpy


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    David: membership … not a first order doctrine

    Church leaders who seek to control the pew always elevate jots and tittles to doctrine. In their kingdom, secondary and tertiary elements of Christian faith ‘must’ become primary and essential … otherwise, the pulpit would not be able to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate the spiritual life of the pew. Never sign on the dotted line. The only covenant that a believer needs to enter into is the one written in red.


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    Ava Aaronson: bait-and-switch

    A local New Calvinist church plant was criticized for not talking much about Jesus. To counter that, the whippersnapper lead pastor erected in-your-face 10-foot tall letters of “JESUS” in front of the church at Easter. But you will never hear the Gospel preached there (the real one).


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    Sòpwyth: All of heaven is available…ask for it,

    Thanks Sopy, but I have no desire for streets paved with gold or jewel encrusted vistas, this Earth is my home and I like it just fine.
    Mayhap heaven is different for different folks?


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    Sòpwyth: You are presently aware of two gospels wading with one another.

    I don’t think it’s “another gospel”, but I do think Calvinism is a very specific soteriology that should be clearly communicated to potential church members if this is what the leadership of the church believes.

    If it was “another gospel”, I’d have to classify Presbyterians as heretics or at least heretic-adjacent. No way!

    Leighton Flowers does a good job explaining why Calvinists are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Calvinists may have a very strange soteriology (strange to some) but they still believe in a kind and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, who saves those who put their faith in Christ. Flowers can’t logically get from point A (Calvinist soteriology) to point B (God is good), but he allows that Calvinists can somehow.

    I think Calvinism is a 3rd-rank doctrine (important to Christian theology and practice but not essential to the gospel). The problem comes when Calvinists seem to elevate it to a 1st-rank doctrine (essential to the gospel).


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    Muff Potter: Thanks Sopy, but I have no desire for streets paved with gold or jewel encrusted vistas, this Earth is my home and I like it just fine.
    Mayhap heaven is different for different folks?

    .

    Muff, Respectfully, There are those thirsty enough to ask Him. May they be satisfied.

    ATB

    Sòpy


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    Dear, Paul K,

    Hello,

    I have left it to Jesus, not John Calvin, …what it is to, and who it is, that may dine at His table. May it be as He so wishes, greatly overflowing…

    Pass da sali (grin)

    ATB

    Sòpy


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    My friend once said, come unto Me all who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest…
    .
    Worked for me.

    (tears)

    ..


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    Several years ago, my encounter with an new local church plant that was both Baptist and Calvinist, after an inquiry, discovered that very few if any knew they were attending a baptist church. Absolutely none of the parishioners I encountered knew that the church was Calvinist. No form of TULIP was discussed.


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    Paul K,

    “Flowers can’t logically get from point A (Calvinist soteriology) to point B (God is good), but he allows that Calvinists can somehow.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    i’d say it’s a dangerous use of faith, that opens the door to justifying other non-intuitive things that are harmful.
    ——

    “Leighton Flowers does a good job explaining why Calvinists are our brothers and sisters in Christ.”
    +++++++++++++++

    my perception is that calvinists have difficulty seeing people of other christian persuasions as their brothers and sisters.

    is there any book for them that does a good job of explaining why non-calvinists are their brothers and sisters in Christ?


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    Paul K: The problem comes when Calvinists seem to elevate it to a 1st-rank doctrine (essential to the gospel).

    To New Calvinists, Calvinism = Gospel … there is no other way, truth, and life but through them.


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    elastigirl: is there any book for them that does a good job of explaining why non-calvinists are their brothers and sisters in Christ?

    I have heard JA Medders “Humble Calvinism” is a good one, but I haven’t read it.


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    elastigirl: my perception is that calvinists have difficulty seeing people of other christian persuasions as their brothers and sisters

    That’s because they believe that they are the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through them. Non-Calvinists of other Christian persuasions are not of the elect, and therefore not their brothers and sisters. I know some hardcore New Calvinists who actually believe this!


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    Sòpwyth,

    All The Best to you too Sopy, sincerely.


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    Max:
    “Matt Chandler, a Calvinist Southern Baptist … now beginning to embrace liturgical practices”

    Chandler ain’t no dummy.He sees that SBC’s Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence is in trouble, so he’s reinventing himself … whatever is necessary to keep his megachurch afloat.Besides, a little liturgy never hurt anybody!

    It might be more that his church is in trouble. They’ve had numerous scandals and it’s likely affecting attendance (and the budget).


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    Paul K:
    One thing I’ve struggled with regarding Calvinism (and I’m not a Calvinist) is that it seems to be a bait-and-switch.In the Calvinist church that I recently left, the gospel was presented as if it was the free and open invitation of God to all men to put their faith in Christ and be justified.But when I began finding out about Calvinism and what the pastors and many members believed, it seemed to me to contradict the way in which the gospel was presented.This also showed up in the membership documents – there was a membership statement that was a simple evangelical statement of faith (which didn’t mention Calvinism) but then a teaching statement which described the pastors’ convictions (which was Calvinistic).So, I joined under the membership statement and then realized that to really “belong” I needed to subscribe to the teaching statement as well.This was a real bummer because I simply couldn’t do that in good conscience.I’d imagine this might be how a new convert in a Calvinist church might feel after learning more about Calvinism.Does anyone else have experience with dual statements of faith?

    Dave Hunt points out the inconsistencies in his book What Love Is This? At the end of the day, he recognizes that the so-called “moderate Calvinists” and the so-called “hyper-Calvinists” are really the same; if anything the hyper-Calvinists are more honest as they don’t bother preaching the Gospel. The moderates have to redefine “all”, “whosoever/whoever”, “the world”, etc. as “the elect”, turning the Bible into an insurance policy with so many exceptions/exclusions that it is worthless.


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    Submit to social tyranny or loose your church tax exemption?

    hmmm…

    Could b.

    ..


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    Mark R: Dave Hunt points out the inconsistencies in his book What Love Is This?At the end of the day, he recognizes that the so-called “moderate Calvinists” and the so-called “hyper-Calvinists” are really the same; if anything the hyper-Calvinists are more honest as they don’t bother preaching the Gospel.The moderates have to redefine “all”, “whosoever/whoever”, “the world”, etc. as “the elect”, turning the Bible into an insurance policy with so many exceptions/exclusions that it is worthless.

    Yep, it’s sheer eisegesis. They redefine words in the most outrageous way. I’ve encountered it again and again, and it’s so frustrating. You can’t reason with people who make words mean what *they* want them to mean. Shades of Humpty Dumpty’s famous response to Alice!


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    The jig is up?

    hmmm…

    The core of Calvinism and the core of Catholicism, is one and the same, AKA the writings of Augustine. Augustines mind was corrupted by his former lifestyle, and his former education. He corrupted his use of the scriptures, consequent, his writings were misleading, his understanding of God darkened. It was the false premaces of Augustine that John Calvin utilized to pen his Institutes. Calvin quoted Augustine almost eight hundred times. Martin Luther failed to a lesser degree, in the same regard, being trained as an Augustinian monk. In essence, the reformation stalled, once the many peoples were forced to embrace man made religious falsehood, once again, the die was cast. The light partially put out. Religious deception runes deep. Search the scriptures. If you will read the scriptures you will fine it so easy a child can understand it. Don’t accept a substitute.

    ..


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    Plowboy logic?

    hmmm…

    The secret of the reformation was the placing of the Bible into the hands of the common man.

    ..


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    “What replaces the gospel will never promote a mission-hearted faith anchored in enduring truth working itself out in unashamed discipleship eager to stand the tests of kingdom-calling and sacrifice.
    We want to generate a unified effort among all peoples—an effort that is zealous to honor Christ and multiply his disciples, joining in a true coalition for Jesus.”

    In other words, they want submissive followers who are eager to hand over their money “sacrifice” and submit to humiliating “unashamed discipleship” tests, so they can rule the world.

    For Jesus.

    It all sounds so pretty. What a lovely way to disguise their cult.

    For Jesus.


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    Dave,

    To me, “Servant Leadership” is double-think. It is a perfect menticide word tool for narssictic leaders to feed on sheeps.

    “We are serving you by leading you.”
    “We are accountable to God for your own good”
    “Make it a joy for your leaders who serve you”

    “servant leadership” lingo lowers one’s mental ability to sound an alarm and take action when detecting something is not right. It puts the sheep on the defensive when something is not right – why should I, a sheep, question the leaders who are “serving” me?. Instead of seeing them as equals just as I am, capable of sinning just as I am.

    Nowadays, I will run away as far as I can if soneone uses the “servant leardership” lingo.


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    Sowre-Sweet Dayes: “Servant Leadership”

    I’ve known several pastors and their elder/deacon boards who used that term to describe their ministries … who proved not to be servants and leaders! They sounded good, but didn’t walk the talk. “Servant leaders” is a new catchy descriptor that usually goes along with “Gospel-centered” and “Christ Follower” to paint a picture of a healthy church which is not. Buyer beware! The enemy of God resides in certain corners of the American church, offering a counterfeit to the consumer (you) … it’s close but not close enough. Pray for discernment.