Pismis 24 -Hubble
Some people think that the truth can be hidden with a little cover-up and decoration. But as time goes by, what is true is revealed, and what is fake fades away. Ismail Haniyeh
Please forgive this short post. I have not been feeling well for the last 24 hours and need to go back to bed. No worries about COVID. I have had the required two vaccines (Moderna.)
This post You Are One Step Away from Complete and Total Insanity’will cause you to blow the top of your head off. David French writes about how RZIM concealed and enabled abuse. French clearly discusses how Zacharias gaslighted (or gaslit?) Lori Anne Thompson. I am halfway through Scot McKnight’s book A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. (Tov is pronounced like *rove.*) which I heartily recommend. For those of you who have been reading this blog, you will recognize a number of examples he gives, including Harvest, Willow Creek, and Jules Woodson.
French says:
he RZIM board of directors (oddly enough, its members are anonymous, allegedly out of a desire to protect them from cultural or economic reprisals for their association with a Christian ministry) had “looked into everything.” Ravi’s denomination, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, had conducted a thorough and complete investigation and had cleared Zacharias of wrongdoing. No money had exchanged hands between Zacharias and the Thompsons.
None of this was true. The board of directors had not “looked into everything.” In fact, Zacharias had flatly refused to hand over his personal electronic devices for examination.
…As these details became known within RZIM, discontent grew. Malhotra and Gifford consistently fielded questions for which they had no good responses. Compounding the challenge, Zacharias had been caught exaggerating his academic credentials. The public-facing members of the team were facing a credibility crisis, and they wanted answers. Yet as Malhotra and others probed for more information, they faced withering internal resistance.
…When Malhotra continued to ask questions as she learned more about the gaping holes in the original story, Ramsden allegedly called her “tired and emotional” and suggested to the group that “she can’t handle” the stress and pressure of responding to the allegations.
Senior leaders would tell Malhotra and others that they should believe Zacharias because the senior leaders believed Zacharias. As one senior leader allegedly told the task force, “You just don’t know Ravi as well as I know him. If you had spent as much time with him as I have, you wouldn’t have these concerns.”
When Malhotra continued to press for answers she was told to “do the Matthew 18 thing” (referring to a scripture that admonishes believers to first confront a fellow believer personally before addressing their sin with others). At one point RZIM senior vice president Sanj Kalra pressed Ruth with a question, “Whose side are you on?” He allegedly accused her of “plotting to bring the ministry down.”
Zacharias’s behavior makes Paul’s concern in 1 Corinthians 5 seem mild in comparison.
The following point I want to discuss on Wednesday. Zacharias was not just another sinner. His perversion makes Paul’s 1Corinthians 5 warning to the church about a man sleeping with his mother-in-law look like child’s play. The question I want to explore is complicated. Did Zacharias’s evil pursuits mark him as a man outside of the faith who used the ministry for perversion and monetary levels which provided a luxurious lifestyle?
…On Thursday afternoon, an outside law firm retained by RZIM to investigate claims that Zacharias had sexually abused employees at Atlanta spas that he co-owned released a 12-page report detailing its findings. The results were horrifying. They detailed abuse—including rape allegations by a longtime massage therapist—that were far beyond his defenders’ worst fears.
…Using his back pain as pretext, Zacharias was able to completely circumvent normal precautions that many ministry leaders take to avoid situations where they’re alone with women in personal settings. The rules held for everyone but his massage therapists, but his therapists were the prime targets for his manipulative sexual overtures. The report details how he questioned women about their economic conditions and preyed upon those most in need of financial assistance.
The woman who accused him of rape said that “he made her pray with him to thank God for the ‘opportunity’ they both received.” She also said that “he called her his ‘reward’ for living a life of service to God, and he referenced the ‘godly men’ in the Bible with more than one wife.”
Was it just *inappropriate massage behavior* (whatever that means?)
The following statement seems somewhat naive to me. They claim this was all about inappropriate massage behavior. It was worse, much, much worse. Did anyone raise the question as to why Zacharias chose Bangkok, Thailand, which is well known for its sexploitation of women, men, boys and girls?
Moreover, Zacharias spent extended time in Bangkok, where—according to the report—he would spend his days writing and his evenings receiving massages. For a time he maintained two apartments in the city. He stayed in one, and his massage therapist stayed in the other. The investigators said they had “little insight into whether Mr. Zacharias engaged in inappropriate massage behavior when in Asia.”
Friends of RZIM began to wonder if some of the accusations might be true and the family and RZIM president take umbrage.
French engages with his own impressions of Zacharias at the time of his death. French, too, was deluded.
When Ravi died in 2020, after a short battle with an aggressive cancer, there was a worldwide explosion of gratitude for his life and ministry. As current and former Zacharias employees told me, the Twitter hashtag #ThankYouRavi ultimately reached 2.3 billion impressions. Vice President Mike Pence attended Zacharias’s memorial service. White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany broke down describing Ravi’s impact on her life.
Shortly after he died, I paid tribute to him in the pages of this newsletter. I briefly acknowledged the Thompson scandal and the credentialing controversy, but I said these words, and I meant them:
By taking on the hardest questions—and doing so with particular clarity—Ravi filled the void left by, for example, a youth pastor who couldn’t engage with the problem of pain. He wrestled honestly and thoughtfully with questions about death, hell, and eternal life. It’s not that he answered so clearly that he resolved all debate (no person can do that), but he made countless Christians understand that their faith did indeed have a firm intellectual and philosophical foundation.
As you read the article, you will see that, even in the midst of the investigation, as late as October, Ramsden, the RZIM’s president,
minimized the allegations, allegedly telling staff, “Everything we’re hearing at the moment isn’t simply hearsay, but what would be legally classified as double hearsay.”
When Sam Allberry, a well-known speaker for RZIM, claimed he believed the women, Zacharias’s family step\ped in to berate him.
Ravi’s daughter Naomi, vice president and director of Wellspring International, RZIM’s “humanitarian arm,” sent Allberry an anguished email, berating him for his “unbiblical” and “cruel” public statements. She said his actions and the actions of others who were publicly calling for accountability felt like a “personal betrayal.”
I have reached the conclusion that some people in the RZIM organization knew and I also believe that they covered it up.
There is more, much more to read in the article. I am going. to revisit this on Wednesday. I think everyone is missing the real problem here and that includes the Gospel boys who have written some painfully naive treatises about sin. But, I’ll leave that for next time. In the meantime…
This will be one more reason why I believe *They Knew!* Malhotra’s Confidential Letter at this link to Google docs.
I would heartily recommend that TWW readers take the time and read this 26-page letter from Malhotra. Want to know what was really going on in RZIM? Here is it and it is shocking. In a 26-page letter Malhotra wrote and delivered to the chairman of RZIM early last week, she reflected back at her long ordeal at RZIM and described feeling “systematically marginalized, maligned, and misrepresented to others by key members of senior leadership” during her time on the Thompson task force.
Prayers
I’m headed to an early bedtime. Please pray for the people of Texas. What an awful storm. Ann Keith in Dallas is enduring rolling 12 hours blackouts with severely cold weather. Rachel Green Miller has no electricity and no water in the Houston area.
1st
Hope and pray you feel better soon, Dee!
“3… BIRTHDAY… CAKES!!”
(if even headless doesn’t get this,….. pshhh)
Godspeed. Good health.
Numero cinco.
Same here for dee.
I don’t have any problem at all believing that there was a coverup at RZIM. I spent several years in a small town church where the entire board knew that the pastor had extra-marital relationships going back years. They just didn’t want to deal with it because if word got out, they would get the boot as well. That is exactly what eventually happened. It was horrible for the congregation, especially those who couldn’t believe it. That being said, I’ve known more faithful, hard-working leaders than I have known wolves, but it’s important to have checks and balances on anyone in ministry because we can all stray away. Trying to hide sin in the name of “it’s such a good ministry” always leads to catastrophe.
We’ve now reached the point where some Evangelicals are now trying to claim that Zacharias was never a believer. This cannot be allowed to stand, because this is just a way to evade responsibility.
Original tweet, not by me (the Mike Winger mentioned in here is a SoCal Calvary Chapel pastor with a large following):
Me, in response:
Original person:
Me: (please keep in mind that I am not a nice person)
I am completely tired of this nonsense. You cannot praise a guy to the skies in May and then disown him completely and call him a never Christian the next February. Maybe the solution is not to have cults of personality!
Not only is it extremely likely that people in his own ministry knew, but given his fame and high profile in evangelical circles, it is very, very likely that people outside his own ministry knew as well and said and did little or nothing. That’s understandable in a limited way if those people had no power and so were intimidated or scared to come forward. But given the circles he operated in it is likely that some people with real power in other evangelical organizations or out in the larger world also knew. If so, they have little to no excuse for not speaking up far sooner.
P
The latest from the UK “Zacharias Trust”, which happens to have on the front page of its website “Difficult Questions. Thoughtful Answers.”
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/uk-ministry-of-ravi-zacharias-cuts-ties-with-rzim-and-announces-name-change-following-abuse-scandal
“The UK board also criticised the RZIM US board for “not going nearly far enough in terms of actions relating to leadership and governance” in the wake of the scandal. “Very serious issues and systemic failings have been raised in recent months and confirmed by the Miller&Martin report,” they added. “These demand accountability and urgent action beyond the measures outlined in the RZIM US statement.” As a result of this alleged inaction, the UK board said it had taken “the unanimous decision to make a clear separation from the global RZIM organisation”.
“”In governance terms the UK entity has always been a separate charity with independent trustees, but in the current circumstances we believe that we must now operate without any link to RZIM US,” they explained. “The UK entity will also choose a new name. This process will take time to complete but the UK Board is convinced that this is the best and only way to ensure that the ministry can continue to serve the UK church with integrity. This will also give us the opportunity to review the lessons to be learned from these awful events.””
It has the names of James Gardner, Martin Kitcatt, Jeremy Marshall, Michael O’Neill, Caroline Santer, and Francis Wright. It is unclear whether these are the official members of the board, in part or in whole. This link appears to list active and inactive officers:
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03449676/officers
A couple of names stand out:
DAVIS, Sarah Zacharias
Role RESIGNED
Secretary
Appointed on 26 January 2012, Resigned on 23 March 2012
Correspondence address
195 14th Street Ne, Unit 1606, Atlanta, Georgia, Usa, 30309
Role RESIGNED
Director
Appointed on 26 January 2011, Resigned on 12 September 2018
Occupation
Executive Director
ZACHARIAS, Margaret
Role RESIGNED
Director
Appointed on 13 September 1998, Resigned on 22 December 2015
Occupation
Administration
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
“Me: (please keep in mind that I am not a nice person)”
+++++++++++++++++
you’re very frank.
i’ll take frank for $500.
nice is just….pink cotton candy drizzled with fake maple syrup in a room with pink foil wallpaper flocked with hot pink damasks…
i’d much rather chew on a pine cone.
I agree. That certainly would make things less complicated when someone turns out to be a total rotter.
I saw someone comment on a news article that “We shouldn’t judge RZ because we’re all as bad”. Ugh. I am so tired of sin leveling, because it’s an utter falsehood.
No, I will say it, I am not as bad. I never have done anything this bad. And I don’t believe those Christians who say all sin is the same. It’s not. Systematic and long-term abuse of other human beings is a level of sin that many people do not do.
Why is it that the people involved in systematic and long-term abuse are often the ones pushing the belief that all sin is the same, huh? Maybe so they can keep getting away with it? Maybe so naïve Christians will keep donating and following their ministries? I don’t buy it as truth, at all.
Excellent description. All it needs is a few kitten plates and Professor Umbridge’s theme playing in the background….
Cynthia W.,
It is more than “cult of personality”. Back in the early 1980’s, I noticed how “Campus Ministries” would “market” Christianity…. I specially remember their putting “chalk advertisements” on common paths students take. For one “main event” they put down “maximum sex”, then the time and place…. Good old Josh McDowell was coming to give his maximum sex talk…. I also remember one of the staff women almost acting like she just attended a Elvis or Beatles concert after Josh’s talk…
Really??? The whole thing just “smelled” to me… and, raising “issues” like this did not put you in a “happy place” with the “group”
now, flash forward 40 years.. look what we are dealing with..
Musliin said: “We’ve now reached the point where some Evangelicals are now trying to claim that Zacharias was never a believer.”
That’s often the BIG EXCUSE. After I wrote “Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife,” Gospel Coalition types tried to say that all the beatings and terrorism I endured from my ex-husband was at the hands of a non-believer—that his fundamentalist seminary education, his two Bible church pastorates and strong Complementarian beliefs didn’t mean a thing—that his public posture was simply some sort of a put-on. These guys have got to admit that such abuse happens everywhere and is particularly egregious in authoritarian, male privileged systems. Did the RZM people cover up for a long time? No doubt. They covered for Ravi even as I covered for Randy. I covered up bruises. They covered up widespread sexual abuse many times worse. SHAME, shame on them. They must be held accountable. Keep at it, Dee!
ishy,
“and Professor Umbridge’s theme playing in the background….”
++++++++++++
but of course!
what bugs me about nice is it often seems to be hiding something totally nasty.
“… in Bangkok, he would spend his days writing and his evenings receiving massages …”
“The biggest Christian publisher in the United States will no longer offer resources by the late Ravi Zacharias … HarperCollins Christian Publishing — which includes Zondervan and Thomas Nelson— had published more than 20 titles authored, coauthored, or edited by Zacharias over a 26-year span, including ‘Can Man Live Without God?’, which had been released in 21 languages.”
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/february/ravi-zacharias-books-harper-collins-lee-strobel-rzim-report.html
Can man live without God? Mr. Zacharias may very well have found that out in eternity:
“In ‘that day’ many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from Me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7)
In case people haven’t seen this, here is a long tweet that Rachael Denhollander did about leaders now responding to Ravi Z:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1360445596415520769.html
Here is a little bit of it:
“For every leader who has written a blog post, tweeted, commented on, the steps being taken by RZIM, how good they are, how important the truth is, or how to prevent this, please hear the grief you are compounding:
You have written about how God and right these steps are, but not until they were already taken. Not until the facade was removed.
You did not lift your voice to cry for the truth you now applaud. That fell on the shoulders of the victims. The women.”
Much more after the above.
Some of the meanest Christians I have known hid behind a veneer of “nice”. “Be nice” was often the call of their friends when I or others pointed out the nasty things they did. A lot of people think that because someone is nice to them that they are nice to everyone or couldn’t possible abuse anyone. But abusers are often grooming people they are “nice” as much as anyone else. It’s not because they like them. They’re just being used.
“they should believe Zacharias because the senior leaders believed Zacharias”
The problem with deception is that you are deceived because you are deceived.
Re: Ramsden allegedly called her “tired and emotional” …
I don’t know where all of these people are from, but in the UK context, “tired and emotional” is a euphemism for drunk.
“systematically marginalized, maligned, and misrepresented to others by key members of senior leadership”
Every whistleblower who whistles truth into deception has felt this.
DEE – I prayed for you just now … for healing and a return to your keyboard with a newfound energy and fresh sense of mission for the burden God has given you for such a time as this. This is a sad chapter in the American church … so many of the ‘first’ have fallen, proving that the first shall be last.
Here is my comment on Scot McKnight’s “Weekly Meanderings”:
On Ravi Zacharias, John Stackhouse writes: “Yet we know Martin Luther was capable of both great blessing and hair-raising cursing. John Calvin and John Knox made terrible decisions as leaders accompanied by invective harsh even by sixteenth-century standards.. . . [He then writes of Barth, Tillich, Yoder and others.] I’m just wondering aloud at how God has been somehow able (and, yes, mysteriously willing) to truly bless many others through people who were demonstrably very, darkly wicked. These aren’t isolated cases.” Was God actually “blessing” the work of Ravi while he was sexually abusing so many women? I can’t wrap my mind around this. The rest of my comment follows:
I question putting Luther and Calvin in the same category with Zacharias. I have disparaged both of them for their words and actions, but they did believe what they were saying and said it openly. Many years of horrible sexual abuse, by Zacharias, with no apparent remorse or questioning by those who know him well, rises to a whole different realm in my mind. In fact, to those he was abusing, he defended his awful behavior with godtalk and making them pray with him. ABSOLUTELY DESPICABLE!
If nothing else as it states in James that those who presume to be teachers will be subject to a more strict judgment.
It would have been one thing if this was a few isolated incidents with Ravi’s sin but was basically a lifestyle for a long time all while teaching against what he practiced.
At best the board and organization were people that didn’t want to believe or even entertain an accusation about their esteemed leader and thus weren’t open to any evidence that showed this sin and hypocrisy.
I would strongly recommend everyone read the “The French Press Article” that Dee shared as part of her post. Here are some key points from it:
“What are the lessons we can learn? Some are obvious. When family members of founders occupy the controlling heights of an organization, they are placed under immense strain and face an obvious conflict of interest when their father is accused of misconduct. Rigorous, independent investigations should be mandatory when accusers come forward.”
“I can go on. Nondisclosure agreements—especially in Christian ministries—are poisonous and enable additional abuse. Do not trust instincts over evidence. Never say, “I know this man, and he would never do anything like this.” The goal of any organization facing claims of abuse should be discerning truth, not discrediting accusers. All accusers should be treated immediately—publicly and privately—with dignity and respect. ”
“Christian ministries are populated by leadership teams who derive not just their paychecks but also their own public reputations from their affiliation with the famous founder. They’re admired in part because the founder is admired. They have influence in part because the founder has influence. When the founder fails, they lose more than a paycheck. There is powerful personal incentive to circle the wagons and to defend the ministry, even when that defense destroys lives.”
These alone show what the dynamics were that enabled Ravi Z. to live a double life for so long. Hopefully this will be something that people will learn from.
This isn’t just “Nice”; when I was a kid we used to call this “Nicey-Nice” or “NICEY-NICEY! NICE NICE NICE!!”
I even remember a little schoolyeard jingle about abusive families:
“WE’RE ONE BIG HAPPY FAMILY
AS OZZIE AND HAFRIET AS WE CAN BE!
(can’t remember the next line)
NICEY-NICE ‘TIL THE DAY IS DONE!”
Something about abusers and psychopaths is they are obsessed with Virtue Signalling a Perfect Exterior.
I think the actual name for this is “Dear Leader Syndrome”.
(You can guess the source of the terminology.)
That’s what is called “stinkin’ thinkin’ in Max’s version of the Bible. The Apostle Paul instructed believers that it is actually their job to judge those who profess to be believers but live otherwise.
“It isn’t our job to judge outsiders. But it certainly is our job to judge and deal strongly with those who are members of the church and who are sinning in these ways.” (1 Corinthians 5)
That’s why a brilliant apologist like RZ had enough sense to appoint Board members, without apology, who were wealthy donors but not prophets. Checks and balances at RZIM? Obviously not!
When Christian celebrities fall, how many times have we heard “But, man, he was sure a good preacher!” Bad boys preach ‘to’ idolizers not ‘for’ Christ. A touch of charisma and a gift of gab does not equal spiritual anointing.
I hope to live long enough to witness the funerals of all “Christian” personality cults … but I have a feeling they will continue to pop up long after I’m gone.
God’s measure of success is faithfulness. Was RZ faithful to God? Were RZIM board members faithful to God?
With a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks any of us could be “blessed” with “successful” ministries. But, would it really have anything to do with God and advancing His Kingdom on earth?
“If” God blessed RZ at some point in his ministry, the balance was tipped from blessed to cursed at the end.
ishy,
Great Comment ishy!
I think that a lot of what you describe (all sin is the same) derives from the belief that God cannot and will not tolerate from humans anything other than perfection.
And because you (generic you) cannot be perfect, the Almighty had to engineer the brutal death of his only son as a sacrifice designed to confer perfection on you.
Steve240,
Such a good post.
An issue – is I see particularly women from the SBC and other organizations I have been involved in liking and retweeting her tweet – who I *know* didn’t and haven’t said anything to SBC and other male leadership and held them to task about all SBC and other abuses, definitely not SGM. And one of those women liking that tweet caused an untold amount of pain in my life by not doing so. She has benefitted in her career by staying silent and looking the other way on so many things. This is why I try to stay away from Twitter because things just aren’t what they seem with how people present themselves and it is still so upsetting.
I know Twitter does a lot of good for awareness and conversations – but there’s an element of it that can prevent or slow down freedom from abuse if people don’t tie these conversations to the bigger story and causes. There are a lot of people who use these topics and speak out on these stories when it becomes popular and advantageous for their progression in their career, when speaking out on it is done only because it becomes necessary for them to keep their ministry career going and it would look bad if they didn’t address it. Liking and retweeting tweets is more about decoration and branding for them.
I urge people, especially those who have been abused in any way, to look more closely at associations people are involved in and only trust advocates or people who have put in demonstratable work.
Yeah. I frankly don’t know anyone from that part of my past that has done “demonstratable work”. Most of them either have supported the abusers or just have their heads stuck in the sand and “don’t want to talk about it”. I don’t really know anyone who has tried to go the other way, so I have left them all behind. I know a few people who left at the 2000 changes, but no one who has renounced the SBC or ministries like RZIM since.
And then there’s people like Greear who put on a big show of supporting Caring Well, and then went right back to defending abusers. It’s so disappointing.
By the way I used to be involved in apologetics ministry and have indirect ties to RZIM from that.
Another women I saw liking and responding to Rachael’s tweets is one of the side reasons I left the apologetics ministry I was involved in years ago (not RZIM). Why? She constantly and overtly lied in her resume and credentials and no one cared (lol go figure). The type to say she is a visiting scholar when what that really meant is she reads a book in the library every Wednesday on campus type of person. She also has ties to RZIM and I think may have briefly worked with them once.
I have so many stories about the apologetics world. There are some very kind and honest people in it, however.
Thank you all. It really was nothing. I got the second vaccine late in the day on Saturday and felt miserable starting Sunday night. I am totally well. Jeffrey Chalmers told me that he knows a bunch of people who had a similar reaction. It usually means that my immune system has revved up.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I have another thought on this. I believe a bunch of perverts used the Catholic church to get respect, food, lodging, a good retirement, etc. They found out that the Vatican would not punish them, merely send them off to another parish, etc.
It is quite possible that there is a similar thing going on here and with some other stories I’ve covered. You’ve got a man who is a gifted speaker and above-average intelligence. Could it be that he found the perfect cover for his perversion? he got fame, fortune, etc.
I could be wrong but I am beginning to wonder if perverts have found a home in the evangelical world. Thoughts?
I believe as you do. I think lots of people knew and they studiously ignored it because RZIM was a good gig. Paid well, lots of respect, etc.
JDV,
Great info. The son, Nathan, is nothing off on Instagram. I’m trying to figure out if I should say anything or not. I wish someone would encourage him to cut it out. He was well supported by his dad and the gig is now up. I’m sure he is grieving his dad and the life he has lived.
I’ll raise you another $500.
I’m going to be dealing with this tomorrow. Some of the gospel boys are saying the same thing.I;ve got a great tweet on the matter.
I would love to see what’s going on these days with the woman who acted like she had seen Elvis.
Unfortunately with a lot of things, people will give lip service to what Rachael stated while not practicing what was stated or even not seeing how they were doing what Rachael is condemning to change.
I’m going after them tomorrow.
Max,
Loved your comment. I am so grateful for the judgment of God in these matters. I know He will be just and we will see, one day, how he handled RZ.
Steve240,
I sometimes wonder how many people ignored the information that started coming out in 2015 regarding RZ’s bio. Basically, it was a load of …well you know. Whenever someone has lied that much on something in which it wasn’t important to lie, one can be darn sure that they lied in other areas. In 2015 a few of us knew there was more and all the *nice* Christians attacked us instead of looking at their celebrity.
If we needed RZ to help us speak to nonbelievers then we are in bad shape indeed.
I didn’t know that!! Thank you.
Max,
You are the absolute best! I’m getting ready to go after the gospel boys tomorrow.
Ruth Tucker,
I said something about this on twitter.
I agree with you. Twitter is a mixed bag. For example, I know some things others don’t about people who have said they were going to speak out and told others to stay quiet until that happened. Nothing ever happened.
Dee,
I’m the only person I know, except for husband John, who doesn’t know how to DO twitter. I’m going to have to learn!
That really doesn’t surprise me that you were attacked by “nice” Christians. After all, Ravi Z. seemed so anointed and had all this insight etc. How could Ravi be doing something wrong or if exaggerated his credentials it was just an honest mistake?
When I saw the report that C.J. Mahaney blackmailed Larry Tomczak one of my questions was that if Mahaney thought this was acceptable to do what else has C.J. Mahaney thought acceptable to do? Thus similar to if Ravi would lie about education what else might he be lacking in integrity.
People don’t see what they don’t want to see. It is like with some bosses where either they like someone and that person can do no wrong or the don’t like someone and that person can never do anything right.
I have been in various discussions about Christian leaders and people want to shoot down what I say due to how well this person sounded speaking etc. They made the mistake of equating gifting to character.
I think this has been one of the biggest lessons of reading TWW. We find out one thing that isn’t kosher and start to question a pastor or leader’s integrity. Their fans rush to defend them, claiming it’s made up or everyone is overreacting. But with 99% of these leaders, that one thing is just the tip of the iceberg and what we learn later is that they have done much, much worse.
It’s made me wonder if there’s any way to obtain power in the church without being or going bad? There’s a few leaders who I think started out on a right path and then went bad, but I think a lot of these people were never good people from the start. I dunno why I’m surprised. I saw baby pastors at LU and SEBTS who were praised to high heaven who I knew did not have good character. All of their faults were overlooked (particularly those involving money or the way they treated women). Most of them were ordained at 18 in their home churches with little in the way of vetting.
ishy,
The issue is, you never hear of the “good pastors”, because they do not seek the fame….
One of the surprising things that I have observed in my professional world is that you have to advocate for your self… there are lots of awards for professional accomplishments, all the way up to a Noble Prize. However, from what I have observed in all my years is that NO is nominated that did NOT do the behind the scene politicking to get nominated…
Since a women that I did undergraduate research for won a Noble Prize, and she herself, when talking about women in science in a public interview, said you need to “advocate for yourself”.. I speak with some authority here..
So, I think the Christian Industrial Complex is all about self promotion as well… so, by default, you will not hear about truly humble servants…
I’m considering pastors I know that have remained in the SBC. They actively avoid dealing with the giant problems in their denominations. They may give lip service to sexual abuse but won’t talk about it with their congregations. Even my remaining Baptist friends refuse to talk about the elephants in the room, even though their churches will probably be “revitalized” within the next 10-15 years.
Maybe there are some humble servants, but I don’t know if I think that denial allows people to keep their integrity. They are exactly why RZ and others got away with what they did for so long.
You mean the “another gospel” boys. Sic ’em girl!
ishy,
You raise another issue… staying silent when evil exists…. just like the people that stay silent when Hitler rose to power…
His mercy endureth forever, but not FOREVER. That’s why Jesus pleads with all of us to the very end of The Book … “Repent or else!”
Not just staying silent, but refusing to even acknowledge that there could be problems. They are just pretending there are no problems at all.
I do think, from long experience being around evangelicals, that many of them believe Christians aren’t supposed to have any problems, so they pretend they don’t. But they do. They have pretty big personal problems and are ignoring a lot of systemic problems. And then they wonder why non-Christians don’t want to become Christians, because their God certainly hasn’t made them better people.
It reminds me of an advisor at Liberty that warned me not to mention any personal issues if I applied to IMB (pre New Calvinism). Because missionaries are not supposed to have any problems and are basically supposed to be perfect people. They don’t get supported by IMB if they are not. I remember they especially warned me about Johnny Hunt, who was on the IMB board at that time. Now we know that Johnny Hunt was ignoring all sorts of problems with his friends, like RZ.
Institutional Christianity?
hmmm…
Same as it ever was.
Same as it ever was,
Same as it ever was?
bump^
Dry up the money?
Simple.
Go underground…
Ouch.
Stop making sense…
$ure.
Intermission- Stop Making Sense + TALKING Heads _
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTZKRXawk6w
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Agreed.
So what if Ravi “wasn’t a believer?” The consequences were the same for his victims and anyone who followed him.
In some ways, this train of thought is even worse than “he’s a modern-day King David,” because it illustrates the complete lack of discernment (or lack of care) of those who supported him and his ministry.
Shall I remind people of who spoke and attended Ravi’s funeral?
Mike Pence for one.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
elastigirl,
“3… BIRTHDAY… CAKES!!”
+++++++++++
ok, headless, before i do the big reveal, i’ll give you a shot at it.
ishy,
“It’s made me wonder if there’s any way to obtain power in the church without being or going bad?”
++++++++++++
make it an anti-profit center, a zero $ balance at the end of every Sunday, bi-vocational volunteers?
built-in mechanisms for anti-power, anti-wealth…
That’s a really interesting concept. Maybe designate a local shelter that gets any extra funds each week.
Do you think people would stick to it?
ishy,
well, if people are getting sick of christian celebrity, it stands to reason that they’re getting irritated with monetizing ministry, as well.
(and all the compromises that happen [and their justifications – “It’s perfectly legal” – yeah, well, it’s scuzzy, shady, unfair, and exploits your community])
would people stick with it?
money and power are big temptations – but that goes without saying, and with the territory of being human. jesus addressed this. seems to me ‘christian’ requires built-in mechanisms of anti-wealth and anti-power, and a rejection of such.
perhaps it depends on the extent to which ‘christ-‘ in ‘christian’ refers to Jesus Christ, as opposed to simply a mascot or branding word.
Calling something Christ-centered doesn’t necessarily make it so … and hard to swallow when leaders don’t act Christlike. The authority of Christ is waning in the American church … He has almost no influence with celebrity ministers and their ministries which use His precious name for personal benefit.
Hunt was present at the grand-opening of RZ’s spa. I always thought he faked and baked. My Dad warned me to steer clear of preachers with tans and gold-choker chains. (he would now include skinny jeans, big screens and fog machines)
More than a home. Hunting ground for predators.
Big tent evangelism. No discernment, as with Ananias & Sapphira.
Note: the predator was an active pervert right to the end, AGE 74. Predators grow old while their perversion ages like fermentation, becoming more toxic over time. Evil old man. Old yet evil.
I posted this at the end of the last thread about RZIM (for some reason my browser had not refreshed to show this new post). This might be a better place for it.
The 13:15 mark in the video below starts what is probably the most succinct and strong reason I have ever heard to support the tearing down of ministries setup by abusive leaders. This snippet at the end of the section is especially strong:
“That abuse and that pathology – it doesn’t stay up with the leader. It trickles down in the group and good people end up doing really bad things.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U4Cq-dgNnw
https://twitter.com/ThouArtTheMan/status/1361825289093996545?s=20
Max,
“Calling something Christ-centered doesn’t necessarily make it so”
+++++++++++
…calling people ‘christian’ doesn’t make them christ-like.
ee gads (and i’m being polite), ‘christian’ is some weird hybrid frankenstein. Lots of Paul, lots of feudal society, totalitarianism, miss maryanne from romper room, 13-year old boy,…
they took Jesus’ name, but nothing else.
That’s absolutely something he would have voted to disqualify someone for IMB admission. Ugh!
Max,
Max,
The interesting thing that, although the former pastor was a very good elocutionist, he had no real content in his sermons the year before he was finally sacked. Rumors had begun to go around that something was not right in his relationship with a certain person, and all of the sermons fell into the “touch not thine anointed” category, along with cautionary tales about boys being mauled by bears and kings being cursed for challenging the Old Testament priests. The guy was too busy trying to cover up his sin to develop any new sermon material.
“RULES FOR THEE AND NOT FOR ME”
“You can tell when a preacher-man’s in trouble when…”
My brain’s been pretty fried by eleven months of COVID lockdown.
All I can think of is that sounds like a sound bite from Pinkie Pie.
All that does is take the spotlight off the abuse and down the rabbit hole of Theological Minutiae.
With lotsa opportunities for Virtue Signalling as the rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper and deeper.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I am also leaning to RZ not being a true believer. First, he was a pathological liar about his whole life and felt no conviction over it. He had decades of living a double life which he learned to plan, monetize and execute. He abused women that he knew faced abuse at some other point in their lives. He didn’t help them deal with trauma, he was so sick that he actually added to their trauma. He didn’t have a lapse of judgment in a moment but a long history of horrible behaviors that he never, ever felt the Holy Spirit convict him of. His targets were women that were not well connected, well off or highly educated.They were not women like his wife or daughters. They would be easy to malign and discard if he had to. The whole scheme was well thought out ahead of time. I don’t think that is letting him off the hook. I think the American church is really messed up that they can’t discern the fakers. That makes this worse in my opinion. We in the church are so easily fooled is scary. Second, he is Indian. Many Indians don’t understand true conversion. They think they are Christian if they grew up in church or a Christian home. They can say the words to the song but can’t hum the music. Does this let everyone off the hook? No. I think this proves to be much more serious. I believe the family knew or at least suspected. I have wondered if he abused them or at least emotionally manipulated them to keep them silent. Anyone that has lived in India for an extended period of time can see that Ravi ran his organization according to Indian culture. I also tend to think that because Ravi was Indian he could get away with more. Any questions could be met with this is how my culture dictates. Most would not cross that barrier and question. They would respect it.
JDV,
Did the wife or daughters get a salary from the UK organization or even an honorarium? How many salaries did the family pull out of this ministry?
Prelude to a solution?
hmmm…
Analysts_ The apparent (final) justification for Ravi latent actions was/were Perceived Personal Privilege had trumped the necessity for discerning and practicing sound biblical truth. ( Resulting in a fatal and very destructive form of Self Deception).
Hope this helps,
ATB
Sòpy
I agree with much of what you write, but Christianity would be a healthier religion if we all gave up on deciding who truly believes what, and when.
If people say they are Christian, it’s not my job to question that. God will judge them in the hereafter; meanwhile our job is to do earthly justice.
It’s just wrong when organizations try to write off some Christian’s bad deeds as a time when they were not actually Christian. Even worse when pastors say that about themselves (“I was not a Christian when I cheated on my spouse, but now I am”). No, that was a time of sin and/or crime committed by a Christian who might also be a terrible person.
You write, “Many Indians don’t understand true conversion. They think they are Christian if they grew up in church or a Christian home.” Again, who are we to say? As a teen, I thought my parents were not Christians, because they were not openly emotional about their faith. I was wrong to judge them in that way, if only because both of them prayed to the Christian God throughout their lives.
elastigirl,
ok, i’ve generalized very broadly. i’m sure this is an unfair characterization, and millions of those who subscribe to christianity are amongst the most excellent human beings.
but truthfully, after a lifetime in a variety of churches, christianity doesn’t seem to be about Jesus anymore.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
elastigirl,
sure, totally understand.
.
.
and now for the BIG REVEAL!! (because i know everyone’s dying to know):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmQet5Gjgo&loop=0
(or maybe i’m the only 70s child here who watched pbs)
Good way of putting it.
It fits.
The variety of beliefs and practices can be beautiful. Unfortunately, too many Christians think there’s only one way to be.
And of course there are too many corrupt church leaders and oppressive churches. Christians don’t have to accept that, and we shouldn’t.
Todd Wilhelm,
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil … until you have to, then CYA.
Friend,
“The variety of beliefs and practices can be beautiful”
+++++++++++
indeed.
but i am worn out from being looked at with a wary side eye. no matter what christian group i’ve been a part of, i’m wrong.
until i started my own (my prayer group). formed around 1 thing, prayer. all are welcome. different prayer methods and styles (although praying in heavenly language is done so quietly as to go unnoticed).
(unfortunately one person has rigid beliefs and attempts to impose her narrow view — but there’s such a legacy of freedom and openness that has been cultivated in our group, it’s like there’s just no stopping it now. it’s much more powerful- her attempts to impose her disapproving narrow view and reign things in just sort of crumble and disappear.)
just as mlk said, “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” Change takes a long time, but it does happen”, i think it bends towards freedom, too.
(i’ve sort of gone off in different directions here.)
Friend,
Michael Ramsden is from the UK.
“Second, he is Indian. Many Indians don’t understand true conversion. They think they are Christian if they grew up in church or a Christian home. They can say the words to the song but can’t hum the music. Does this let everyone off the hook? No. I think this proves to be much more serious.”
I’d be careful with this kind of analysis. Substitute a few phrases and you make this true of any nominal form of Christianity. I don’t think this is particularly more true in India than anywhere else – and I think this kind of analysis speaks to the biography of the person making it than anything else.
I’d also question the usefulness of deciding that he wasn’t a ‘real christian’. To a large extent it doesn’t matter, it still happened within and was facilitated by evangelicalism.
Your prayer group helps keep the Kingdom going. It’s hard work, and parts of it are unpleasant, but you’re giving everyone a great gift by offering such an open and varied experience. Despite your fatigue (and frustration), I hope that you continue to have the strength and desire to convene the group. 🙂
Dee,
I am trying to remember her name, and her married name…
i.e. “MY Way!”
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the Powerless.”
— George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Which is the antithesis of being a “servant”… “Lets this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus, who being, being in the form of G$d, thought it not robbery to be equal with G$d, but made himself a of no reputation, and took upon him form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man……
I know the type. Only they are right and the rest of us are hopelessly wrong. Many of them hate and despise human freedom of any stripe. There’s a woman who has her own youtube channel dedicated to uncovering and combating ‘progressivism’ in the Church.
I’ve watched several of her vids, and they amount to little more than a kind of quasi-fundagelical-inquisition.
Therein lies the root of the problem in the Christian Industrial Complex. Much of the American church has lost its spiritual mind! Jesus who? Millions of church folks drop His name, but they don’t truly ‘know’ Him … if you don’t know Him, you can’t have His mind in you. “Let” is the key word in that passage … you must choose to have His mind or the world, the flesh and the devil will put another mind in you.
Lori Anne Thompson’s full victim impact statement video –
https://youtu.be/4kDe8caElaw
Victims of Ravi can safely contact
Rachael Denhollander a former victim and advocate who can help them.,
mailto:rjd.requests@gmail.com
Open Letter from Thompsons –
https://julieroys.com/open-letter-to-rzim-from-brad-lori-anne-thompson/
Visionary Provision for solution providers?
hmmm…
Q. What is it to be a truly practicing Christian?
“… all clerics hold a position of public trust and they ought to be held to the higher standard they purport to hold …”
God ‘will’ hold them to a higher standard; RZ is no exception.
“… while we are seeking both truth and reconciliation, we expect neither from RZIM …”
RZIM’s Board should be motivated by truth and reconciliation. If not, they should not be entrusted as advisors in Christian ministry.
I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters up-front and on the table.
The rest of the stuff?
I keep my own counsel and pick and choose as I see fit.
Because I may or may not believe in this that or the other beyond the Creed, I have been accused of everything from heresy to just plain old reprobation.
Some have even assured me that my eternal destination will not be pleasant if I don’t come about and believe a certain way.
From the linked article, from her husband: “Also unknown to me, from March through June 2016, Lori Anne became suicidal. I was aware that she required frequent medical care and had sought local counseling in March 2016. Lori Anne disclosed to this counselor Mr. Zacharias’ profession of love. This counselor told Lori Anne “not to inform me, that the Kingdom of God was at stake, and the Muslims would celebrate.”
How’s that for “counseling”
IMO, that was crummy “counseling” which confused Mrs. Thompson even more, I’m sure. The Kingdom of God was never at stake; RZIM was at stake. Ministries that operate with such leadership would not be considered doing Kingdom work.
I wonder if the “counselor” was a graduate of SBTS’s Biblical Counseling program? A financial supporter of RZIM?
Muff Potter,
“Because I may or may not believe in this that or the other beyond the Creed, I have been accused of everything from heresy to just plain old reprobation.
Some have even assured me that my eternal destination will not be pleasant if I don’t come about and believe a certain way.”
++++++++++++++++++
i marvel at this (which is not unfamiliar).
every group has their thing they go high on as being non-negotiable.
like, ‘joanne blow’ gives her life to serving and helping the poorest of the poor, the least of these. she preaches at a church, having the presumption to stand at ‘the pulpit’, resting her forearms on it as she leans into the mic to make an important point even. (she touched the pulpit!)
and denny burk of the CBMW complementarian squad responds with something akin to “woa…. woa, i say!”
ridiculous
so, what exactly is going to happen to a woman who does what qualifies as ‘preaching’ with or without a pulpit to others? what exactly is going to happen to that group of others?
what is going to happen to someone who doesn’t subscribe to pet non-negotiable doctrine A? and pet non-negotiable doctrine B? C? D? E?…
will God’s blessing lift so they won’t find those miraculous parking places any more? (amongst other things prayed for)
or is it eternal curtains?
Denny’s heaven is going to be the loneliest place in the universe.
another ridiculous (just for good measure).
The Board in 2018: “Importantly, this 2018 document lists the Directors by name. This is the only public disclosure of the Directors that I can find after RZIM stopped filing 990s. They were:
Ravi Zacharias, Peter Sorensen, Mo Anderson, Phyllis Beard, Margaret Zacharias, Christopher Blattner, Tony Cimmarrusti, Sarah Davis, Veronica Colondam, Stanley Foltz, Wee Tiong Howe, Paul Kepes, Darryl Lanker, William Payne, Chuck Zeiser, Casey Cook, John Diepersloot, Dr. Kenneth Gamble, and Beth Sankey.”
From this page: https://ruthhutchins.com/post/rzim-governance/
and she has other RZIM posts. I do not recognize her name but she does look to be doing good research.
But when RZIM IS The Kingdom of God…
“A certain way” = “EXACTLY LIKE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”
Because that is what the game of Christianese One-Upmanship — ANY Virtue Signalling — comes down to.
It’s like The Bloated Spider imagery in the Preface to The Screwtape Letters.
All too often it’s “Whatever I DO that YOU DON’T. MEEE, NOT THEE.”
(See my comment immediately above.)
Wrong God.
No desire to go to Denny’s heaven unless they have a good Tues. night (meatloaf) special.
I have no interest in streets paved with gold and jewel encrusted vistas.
This Earth is my home and I like it just fine.
Here it is, simplified:
Be kind and don’t do the kinds of things to others you (generic you) wouldn’t want done to yourself.
Have I missed anything?