Are Swinging, Wife Swapping Pastors One of the Reasons Matt Chandler Is Spinning Off His Satellite Churches?

Thanksgiving 2019 Aboard the ISS-NASA

“There used to be a tradition of the loveable rogue who would steal from the honour boxes in churches and buy a round of drinks with the money he snagged. And everyone would find him tremendously good company. But not anymore.” Douglas Coupland


Anna, my good friend at No Eden Elsewhere, got booted off of Twitter when she tweeted that creepy pastor, Carl Lentz, should be tarred and feathered.  Apparently one of his fans reported her to Twitter. She is now back under a different handle while she deals with them. I plan to send them a note myself. Looks like Carl *Low Shorts* Lentz has some friends out there. Here is her new account.


She also asked me to direct people from Twitter to her new post. When I saw it, I immediately asked her if I could post it here. Anna is amazing. You will not believe it…or maybe you will. I am becoming increasingly concerned about Matt Chandler’s ability to choose pastors that understand the need for integrity in the pulpit. Perhaps he is too busy raising cattle and selling expensive, but guaranteed, clean steaks.

The title of her post is SWINGING PASTORS? FORMER VILLAGE CHURCH SATELLITE ROCKED BY ALLEGATIONS CONCERNING IT’S FORMER PASTOR

I will start off the post here and send you on to her website to finish it off. Yes, the story involves allegations of swinging pastors and attempts to groom members of the congregation to join in the fun.  Every time I think I’ve heard it all, I realize I haven’t. Never forget that Matt Chandler, who picked these losers (once again), is considered one of the leaders of the gospel boys.

Please keep me in your thoughts and prayers. My mom is not doing well at home and may need to be rehospitalized and my kitchen is torn up. I love to cook but tomorrow we are going to Cracker Barrel which is amusing since I’m a foodie.  But, as my husband often says, “God’s still on the throne.”

So tell me, does this story surprise you? Remember this a Reformedish type of church. I assume they do church discipline. Given this, I wonder exactly what they discipline.


Start post.

With all of the recent news of Jerry & Becki Falwell’s strange proclivities and now Carl Lentz getting the boot from Hillsong Church because of his infidelity, I’m convinced these stories come out in threes. You know the old myth that celebrities die in threes, or something to that effect? Well in the case of church sex scandals, this third one is a doozy.

I was recently contacted by someone who informed me that VERY BAD things have gone on over at Citizens Church Plano (formerly The Village Church-Plano Campus) which involved the campus pastor, Hunter Hall, and the worship pastor, Isaac Wimberley.

It all goes back to 2016, when Hunter committed adultery with a woman in the church…but the story only began there.

 

WHO IS HUNTER HALL?

Hunter Hall was a longtime staff member at The Village Church, most recently as the Campus Pastor of the Plano location (until August 2019). He was also a member of the band Folk Angel, with worship pastor Isaac Wimberley, who is quite famous in his own right. Hall was immensely popular as the Plano campus pastor, and was slated to lead Citizens Church, after it’s roll off as an autonomous campus in late summer 2019.

ISAAC WIMBERLEY

Wimberley was the worship pastor at the Dallas Northway campus before joining Hall at the Plano campus. He, along with Hunter Hall, were members of the band Folk Angel, and Wimberley has gained notoriety for his spoken word presentations, most notably on the album ‘Tell Us of the Night’ (Christmas album.) In 2013, The Village Church released a rap album featuring Wimberley with a duet of Wimberley & popular Christian rapper Tedashii. He is featured throughout The Village Church’s music on several platforms (iTunes, Amazon music, etc.)

Matt & Lauren Chandler are friends with the Hall’s – they are not just obscure staff members. According to this sermon dated April 7, 2019, Chandler says he’s known Hall since he was 16 years old.

“The reason I’m talking about that is because today is the last day Plano is going to be on our stream. Over the last several years they have been with us. They are us. They have become Christians at The Village Church. They have matured in their faith at The Village Church. The Holy Spirit has done significant breakthrough in their lives at The Village Church. They’re off stream as of this sermon, once this is over, and then they are going to be Citizens Church over there in Plano. So I am feeling yet again a gospel goodbye. I’ve known Hunter Hall since he was 16 years old. He’s going to be one of the pastors over there. Jamin Roller is still 16 years old. Then you have Taryn and Adam and Andres. Those are our people. We are their people. They are our family, and God has raised them up and established them in Plano to do ministry in Plano for the people of Plano.”

What we had here were two long-term staff members of The Village Church who were highly regarded, very popular and ready to be launched into an autonomous church body as leaders. What could go wrong?

AUGUST 4, 2019 – LAUNCH DAY

That day was supposed to be an exciting day for the newly minted Citizens Church in Plano. Unfortunately, the congregation was met with the heavy words of teaching pastor Jamin Roller and the noticeable absence of their lead pastor, Hunter Hall.

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-puvst-ba4f1e

“I have really difficult news that I need to share with you, and it’s heavy, and it’s heartbreaking…”

“I’m going to read a statement: As Christians, we are called to make war with our sin and through grace to lead lives marked by holiness. Specifically, elders and pastors are called to be above reproach. On Tuesday (7/30/19) we learned of a PATTERN of serious and grievous sexual sin that has required both the elders of Citizens Church and The Village Church to make a sober and serious decision. It came to light Tuesday that in 2016, Hunter Hall committed infidelity with another adult member of our church, which disqualifies him as an elder and staff member and he has therefore been removed from both of those positions. A person involved brought to light what happened, and when Hunter was confronted, he admitted to the sin. (I need to keep reading, but I am so sorry, I am so sorry) You probably have a myriad of questions, and we will be creating space for that, today and in the coming days. Before moving on I need to say again what I just shared, as it is difficult to process – on Tuesday of this past week, the elders of Citizens Church were informed that Hunter Hall committed infidelity with an adult member of our church, resulting in him being disqualified as an elder and being removed as both an elder and staff member. This disqualifying sin happened in 2016, but came to light this week. The sin was not confessed, but was discovered by someone involved, and when confronted, Hunter admitted to the sin. Know this – we are committed to caring for all involved in this situation, including those sinned against – the Hall family, Hunter, anyone else directly affected, and you. We are committed to caring for you. Though there are serious and difficult consequences involved, we are charged with ministering to the brokenhearted and giving the grace Jesus has given each of us. We will do everything we can to walk with ever person impacted by this, not just now, but in the months to come.”

In the aftermath of these revelations, it was discovered that the other adult member that Hunter Hall had committed infidelity with was the wife of worship pastor Isaac Wimberley.

You might be wondering if this is case of clergy sexual abuse, and on the surface it might appear to be. After speaking with my source, who is a member at Citizens, she informed me that the Hall’s & the Wimberley’s were very close friends outside of church, were involved in the band together, and that there did not seem to be an imbalance of power in their relationships. In my opinion this appears to be a case of marital infidelity involving two consenting adults. It was never disclosed how long this ‘pattern of grievous sin’ went on, or when it stopped. These are open ended questions that are yet to be answered.

The church followed through on their promise to support the two families, keeping them on the payroll for a short time. Others in the church provided assistance in the form of monetary gifts, meals, gift cards. They wanted to make sure their kids knew the ‘church’ loved them and didn’t abandon them. That is a noble cause – this is, if everything were as it seemed. I do have questions:

    1. Did The Village Church make an announcement at their other campuses, since they were involved in the process?
    2. Why has Matt Chandler been completely silent about ANOTHER one of his campus pastors being involved in ‘serious & grievous sexual sin’?
    3. Why would these two pastors be kept on the payroll? There is no other profession where misconduct & subsequent firing would result in staying on the payroll for ANY period of time.
    4. Why were two adulterous pastors shown more care and grace than the victim of a sexual assault & her family?

FAST FORWARD TO FEBRUARY 2020

At this point both couples had stopped attending Citizens Church, and Isaac Wimberley had served a short stint as a worship leader at Lake Pointe Church’s White Rock Campus, where former Village Church Northway Campus Pastor Steve Hardin is now the pastor. (it’s good to have connections, you know). Wimberley has also previously performed at Lake Pointe’s summer youth camp, Journey. I have to wonder if Lake Pointe Church is aware of ANY of this.

However, rumors were starting to circulate about what was REALLY going on with the Hall’s & the Wimberley’s. It didn’t take long before the leadership at Citizens Church was made aware that there was more to the issue than they were originally told.

In early 2020 Isaac Wimberley’s wife wanted to return to Citizens Church to be restored as a member. It was during this process that she revealed there was more to the story.

 

The two couples had been involved in swinging!!!!!

Continuing reading at this link. I bet you will.

Comments

Are Swinging, Wife Swapping Pastors One of the Reasons Matt Chandler Is Spinning Off His Satellite Churches? — 92 Comments

  1. This is why I restrain myself to telling people to put a sock in it when they say something bad on Twitter. I might work myself up to a 10-pack of Haines socks for something terrible, and stinky, sweaty socks for the truly awful. But it’s socks, always socks.

  2. Whew! I continued reading … and now grieved in the inner man. Immoral behavior by church leaders is becoming far too common. This one is about as sick as it gets. The following sentence from Anna’s post paints the wicked picture well:

    “A pastor is standing in front of his congregation week after week, teaching and preaching; a worship pastor is leading moving and emotion-filled music services, appearing to be fully immersed in worshiping God and bringing glory to Him – but behind the scenes these two men are exchanging their spouses for sex.”

    I have to say I’m not surprised this happened in a New Calvinist “church” … as I’ve said before, the movement is drifting toward antinomianism. The overemphasis on grace-this and grace-that appears to be releasing these leaders from the obligation to observe moral law. And I’m not surprised that this came from the Acts 29 corner of New Calvinism, an organization which was founded by potty-mouth Mark Driscoll and now headed by Matt Chandler.

    When will this madness end?!

  3. Jeffrey Chalmers: we pew peons do not have the “authority” to question such things

    The American church could use a bunch of Nathan-prophets to point a finger in the face of countless dudebros and shout “You are the man!” (not in a complimentary way, of course)

  4. Jeffrey Chalmers: pew peons

    In my long tenure of doing church in America, I’ve found that some of the most godliest people in church are pew peons. On the other hand, most pulpiteers that I have known were not spiritual men (not Holy Spirit anyway).

  5. I wish this surprised me. When I learned that the chairman of the elders board at my church had been swinging with his much younger second wife (who had been coerced into it), had defrauded a church member and a person from outside the church, then committed insurance fraud a number of times (one of which caused an innocent fatality), it was shocking and sickening. I’ve never looked at church folk the same. Oh, then the pastor went after the church member who had been defrauded because his good buddy elder couldn’t possibly be at fault.

  6. I swear dee, every time I think I’ve read it all about the fundagelical quagmire, you come up with breaking news that makes the swamp even more noxious.

  7. I read the “No Eden Elsewhere” posting last night on the web site, and just wanted to be ill. I keep wondering what pastors of mega churches think pastors do. I assume that they have studied Paul’s writings and the epistles to the Corinthians in seminary. but, maybe they also study these matters in seminary? (I’m getting sarcastic). I do know I’ll never attend a megachurch. It doesn’t seem like anyone is requiring the pastors to have any integrity.

  8. I read NEE’s post on Monday. I don’t know how fundavangelicalism does it, but it left me both extremely shocked and somehow not. I guess it’s because the details are shocking, but the leaders are always the same in these churches. They are morally bankrupt, terrible people who never should have been leaders to start with and yet always manage to get in control of other people. I’ve watched some of them do terrible things right in front of me and one I am thinking of still thinks he has the right to rule everyone else and is trying (badly) to accomplish that.

    Can I start a revolution where mental health assessments are a key part of allowing people to be church leaders? Where people are taught the signs of people they shouldn’t trust? I don’t think it was help completely, but maybe it’d be a start?

  9. ishy: Can I start a revolution where mental health assessments are a key part of allowing people to be church leaders?

    This, and the assessments should begin at at earlier point — in seminary admissions. Don’t waste people’s time and money (and the efforts of the personnel at the educational institutions) training people for tasks they aren’t suited to perform.

    I suspect that the revolution will come, if it comes at all, from below. Pastoral search committees may not use Google, but the membership can.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that even if better screening processes can be implemented, there will still be systemic problems of people who start out genuinely meaning well but who “go bad” when placed into situations that exalt them above their peers. I think that “scale” is a problem for the senior officers of any hierarchy. Too much money and power, and too many eyes gazing admiringly at you, is likely to mess with you, no matter how well you start out.

    So I suspect that if there is a brighter future for “church”, it will be in smaller groups. Perhaps the economics won’t work, in which case it may be necessary to rethink the traditional model of owned meeting places and full-time mono-vocational staff. I personally like the idea of not recruiting from among the young for theological and pastoral training; it might be better for ‘elders’ to be older people of known and tested character. The technical skills can be learned as needed, but the human element, things like gentleness, grace and patience, in pastoral ministry is much harder to impart in the classroom setting. It may be better to screen for these traits, and that might be more possible if the candidates are people who are known to the congregation for a long time.

  10. GreekEpigraph,

    Welcome to the Christian Industrial Complex in America, where anything goes. Bad-boy preachers love bad-boy elders like that – they cover each other’s butt when the going gets rough.

  11. Swingin’ while preachin’ Jesus is a new low point in the American church.

    Swingin’ while singin’ Jesus is a song heard only in Hell.

    These bad-boys committed a great deception on the church. Under the cover of “grace”, they cheapened the precious message of Christ to the people under their care. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, who followed them are now confused and disillusioned. Satan is the author of confusion.

    “Your father is the devil, and what you are wanting to do is what your father longs to do. He has never dealt with the truth, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44)

  12. ishy:

    Can I start a revolution where mental health assessments are a key part of allowing people to be church leaders? Where people are taught the signs of people they shouldn’t trust? I don’t think it was help completely, but maybe it’d be a start?

    Psychological assessments prior to ordination are required in some denominations, including the one to which my church belongs. I’m not sure such assessments are required prior to a church hiring a candidate for a pastor’s position. It might help, but I’m not sure how well it will work in the long run. There have been some pastors who started out well until the power and prestige of their positions got to them.

  13. ishy: Can I start a revolution where mental health assessments are a key part of allowing people to be church leaders?

    Do it! Until you get that in place, I would be OK with following the Biblical principle of old godly men teaching young spiritually immature men for a season before they are released on the Body of Christ. In the old SBC model of doing church, young men going into the ministry were assigned associate positions for a season under a proven senior pastor. Today, these youngsters are unleashed on the American church fresh out of seminary. Inexperienced and unproven, they assume “Lead Pastor” roles right out of the chute! There are thousands of them in SBC church plants and satellites of mega-churches, like The Village Church. There’s something not right about “pastors” in their 20s-30s with a hand-picked “elder” team of same age controlling things. The youth group is running the church in many places! We read about their spiritual immaturity and bad behavior every day on TWW.

  14. dee,

    Dee, I would be hard-pressed to come up with the “Top Ten Bad-Boy Preachers of 2020” … there are so many worthy candidates for that infamous list! Hall and Wimberley would certainly be in the running.

  15. ishy,

    Most mission organizations that I’m aware of don’t let you leave the country without at least one assessment, often more than that. And, my board had ongoing assessment while home on furlough. That was 30 years ago. It seems like seminaries and churches could do something similar.

  16. ishy: Can I start a revolution where mental health assessments are a key part of allowing people to be church leaders? Where people are taught the signs of people they shouldn’t trust? I don’t think it was help completely, but maybe it’d be a start?

    Mental health assessments DO happen in the ordination process. Our local Catholic archdiocese has men screened very thoroughly before they get anywhere near a seminary. The mainline denoms have been screening seminarians for decades, and also intervening when things go wrong. Some mainline seminaries even work with spouses to make sure they know what congregational life might be like.

    Teaching critical thinking skills and self-protection to church members is a little more tricky, because people have to want that. Healthy churches at least live out the example. They have effective safeguards for children and adults. They take the risk of presenting a range of viewpoints instead of drilling farther and farther down into the One True Way.

    I was talking with a clergy member about stress maybe a year ago. He said, “My therapist suggested that I…” This impressed me so much that I didn’t hear the rest of his sentence.

    There are no perfect guarantees, but better practices are out there, and well established.

  17. Sorru tp be sour apples here, but would a psychological assessment have caught any of these four?

  18. singleman: I’m not sure such assessments are required prior to a church hiring a candidate for a pastor’s position. It might help, but I’m not sure how well it will work in the long run. There have been some pastors who started out well until the power and prestige of their positions got to them.

    In some denoms, a lay committee works with the candidate all the way from the perceived call through ordination and beyond. These mere mortals have a very strong say in allowing the person to move forward or not. In other words, they keep candidates humble.

    Some denoms also have programs for helping clergy who are having problems. They can be required to step back from ministry. Not all problems grow out of pride and lust. Sometimes pastors start to burn out, or they have family problems or health problems, or substance issues.

    Our church made a mistake about 15 years ago in hiring an associate pastor at a time when some key people were under a lot of strain. The congregation gave this person a fair bit of time, and then worked through established steps to show displeasure and move the person along.

    The associate pastor was not breaking any laws. The issue was a big ego. Trust me, that ego got deflated.

  19. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Sorru tp be sour apples here, but would a psychological assessment have caught any of these four?

    A psychological assessment is like a burglar alarm. The bad guys move along to the next house.

    More important, some denoms don’t offer anything like riches or fame. They promise a low starting wage and then something like a middle-class salary, much later on. They require three years of rigorous academic study.

    I’ve known some graduates of a nearby mainline seminary. The professors there make constant demands of students, and are constantly pointing out areas in need of improvement. This also happens in mainline congregations, where yes indeed, people in the handshake line are perfectly happy to say the sermon stank. It’s an unappealing life for narcissists, although of course some of them are highly determined.

  20. “Most Cults are started so the Cult Leader can (1) Get Rich, (2) Get Laid, or (3) Both.”
    — my old Dungeonmaster, in a post-game recreational thinking session

  21. Max:
    dee,

    Dee, I would be hard-pressed to come up with the “Top Ten Bad-Boy Preachers of 2020” … there are so many worthy candidates for that infamous list!Hall and Wimberley would certainly be in the running.

    Just like Pedo Pastors, someone really needs to start a Take-a-Number System.

  22. Jeffrey Chalmers:
    Max,

    But remember Max, we pew peons do not have the “authority” to question such things…..

    We exist only to Pray, Pay Pay Pay, and most important OBEY!

    Don’t you know PASTOR Superapostle is a member of God’s Inner Ring, a PRIEST as far above us Laity as God is above a turd? Listen to him preach about those Filthy Romish Papists and their Priestcraft!!!!

  23. Max: some of the most godliest people in church are pew peons

    If they $upport the pulpiteers? Complicit, $upporting their Dear Leaders who are all about goons (power), grab (vice), & greed (money). Christian cultists, whether they admit it or not. Actions are facts. Words are … paper & noise if they lack appropriate action.

  24. Max: “A pastor is standing in front of his congregation week after week, teaching and preaching; a worship pastor is leading moving and emotion-filled music services, appearing to be fully immersed in worshiping God and bringing glory to Him – but behind the scenes these two men are exchanging their spouses for sex.”

    Do they pass around a bowl of car keys from all present (picking at random selects which wife to swap), or is that too Seventies? Do Pastor and Worship Leader wear polyester leisure suits open to their navels showing off their coke spoons dangling against dyed chest hair?

    Yet another sign that Christians are Late Adopters. The practice of Swinging/Wife Swapping is straight out of those pre-AIDS, pre-Herpes, pre-Chlamydia days of the Swinging Seventies. So common back then even the locker-room comedy Slap Shot included a Swinging scene!

  25. “There used to be a tradition of the loveable rogue who would steal from the honour boxes in churches and buy a round of drinks with the money he snagged. And everyone would find him tremendously good company. But not anymore.”

    In fiction, the trick to writing a “loveable rogue” character is you have to take him right up to the edge of becoming A Bad Guy, have him dance right along that line (for tension), but never actually have him take a step over it.

    I remember Lovejoy Mysteries on cable many years ago (about a Rogue of an antique dealer) where they managed to achieve that most of the time, but once when he actually stepped over that line from Rogue to Schmuck, it was very obvious and jarring.

  26. Max: I would be OK with following the Biblical principle of old godly men teaching young spiritually immature men for a season before they are released on the Body of Christ.

    So would I Max.
    But the World has moved on so to speak, and gray heads with many years of experience are no longer valued.
    Youth, beauty, and the latest ‘smart phones’ are the markers that matter nowadays.

  27. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    “Sorru tp be sour apples here, but would a psychological assessment have caught any of these four?”
    ++++++++++++++

    perhaps they are rather normal, but something about The Village Church culture made them feel like celebrity superstars with power enough to be immune to the rules the apply to lesser beings.

    i mean, church culture messes with people’s personalities. changes them. changes their belief structure about themselves and others. The concept of God is like rocket fuel for this.

    judging by the train wrecks that have happened already at The Village Church, this has to be red-alert true of the place.

  28. Hey! How come it’s the men wife swapping! Why don’t you say a’ the wives were swapping their husbands’!

    Max:
    Whew!I continued reading … and now grieved in the inner man.Immoral behavior by church leaders is becoming far too common.This one is about as sick as it gets.The following sentence from Anna’s post paints the wicked picture well:

    “A pastor is standing in front of his congregation week after week, teaching and preaching; a worship pastor is leading moving and emotion-filled music services, appearing to be fully immersed in worshiping God and bringing glory to Him – but behind the scenes these two men are exchanging their spouses for sex.”

    I have to say I’m not surprised this happened in a New Calvinist “church” … as I’ve said before, the movement is drifting toward antinomianism.The overemphasis on grace-this and grace-that appears to be releasing these leaders from the obligation to observe moral law.And I’m not surprised that this came from the Acts 29 corner of New Calvinism, an organization which was founded by potty-mouth Mark Driscoll and now headed by Matt Chandler.

    When will this madness end?!

  29. At one point, cars did not have headlights. Headlights are not a perfect safety program, but they help.

    We don’t say, “Only the wrong people use headlights.”

    We also don’t say, “Wouldn’t it be nice if I could see where I am driving at night… hmm…”

    Corrupt churches lack safeguards because they prize their corruption.

  30. I think a lot about how grandiosity traits are normalized in the socialization into evangelical culture and some of the doctrine. I wonder how a psychologist would account for that while assessing a person for grandiose traits, specifically. Primarily when looking at cluster B disorders, especially NPD and Anti-Social PD.

    One example if a person was being evaluated over the course of therapy sessions:
    “This person believes that they are the worst of all sinners to ever live and they deserve nothing good that they have.” Suffering Puritan? A sign of low self differentiation and low self worth?

    Or is it a sign of embedded grandiosity? They are attracted to all or nothing grandiose identity markers so they can portray false humility and receive supply and praise from their environment?

    I know some of the rote testing has questions similar to the following:
    Do you feel like you are specially called to lead and influence in society? Evangelicals would all excitedly say “Yes!” lol But to answer yes is a sign there may be grandiose traits within a person’s personality and way of relating to people around them.

    I notice grandiose statements in Christian schools and churches mission, marketing statements all the time. It is so normalized it can obscure problematic behavior and tendencies, all hidden behind the name of God.

  31. emily honey: I notice grandiose statements in Christian schools and churches mission, marketing statements all the time. It is so normalized it can obscure problematic behavior and tendencies, all hidden behind the name of God.

    Very good point. I hope someday someone does a study on it.

  32. Friend: More important, some denoms don’t offer anything like riches or fame. They promise a low starting wage and then something like a middle-class salary, much later on. They require three years of rigorous academic study.

    This may only work IF your not the king in your own kingdom. Most of these guys are.

  33. emily honey: I think a lot about how grandiosity traits are normalized in the socialization into evangelical culture and some of the doctrine.

    Great comment. I don’t have much hope that Christian institutions will self-correct, so we pew-peons have to take the initiative. In addition to NPD, learning about malignant narcissists can be helpful. This article helped me to extract myself from a friend who fit this description (the end of the article gives some good advice). Info like this could be helpful when dealing with abusive churches.
    https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-recognize-a-narcissist-4164528

  34. emily honey: I think a lot about how grandiosity traits are normalized in the socialization into evangelical culture and some of the doctrine.

    Instead of worshiping God, the evangel(ical) cult(ure) is leaders that claim to represent/speak for God & the followers that $tep in line, $toop to this idolatry & its myth.

    Satan branded himself to represent God: “What did God tell you? What did He mean? He didn’t mean this He meant that, trust me.”

  35. It makes me sick to think that the whole while these men were in front of the congregation preaching and singing they were focused on scoping out the wives in the crowd, probably deliciously imagining future encounters, instead of worshiping the Lord. Evil b**tards.

  36. Regarding james beamers’ comment about calling out the wives…yes their sin is disgusting but its the MEN onstage every sunday claiming to speak for God!

  37. Abigail: Regarding james beamers’ comment about calling out the wives…yes their sin is disgusting but its the MEN onstage every sunday claiming to speak for God!

    Yes, and don’t forget in churches operating under the “beauty of complementarity”, the men take the lead on everything. And, boy, was their sin a beaut! It reeked to high heaven!

  38. Christianity has become more about having correct ideology than pure hearts and how people exercise the faith. When it is about ideology, it’s no longer about how you live. Part of the problem is that Evangelicalism loves to define everyone and put people into groups. This is good. That is bad. Those people are depraved. These people are holy. It’s black and white thinking when people and institutions are quite a mixed bag . If they would avoid this bizarre obsession with calling preachers “God’s special anointed” and lifting them up so high, these men might actually retain enough humility to embrace the concept of “working out your faith in fear and trembling.” Humility before God and humility among your fellow humans would go a long way to change these horrible offenses.

    Evangelicalism has a cultural problem. Yes, these men as individuals did these things . But there’s a system and construct that keeps leading to this sort of thing.

  39. Bunsen Honeydew: Yes, these men as individuals did these things . But there’s a system and construct that keeps leading to this sort of thing.

    The system of a hierarchy with a guy at the top keeping everyone under him “in line”. Leads to goons (power), grab (vice), and grift (money greed).

    Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4. There are 18 gifts to function as church, pastor being one, all in lateral position with each other and under the authority of Jesus, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Every Christian is anointed by the Holy Spirit with a gift. Everyone contributes. Everyone benefits. Agency intact. The HS is the Gatekeeper.

    The 18 gifts are not the charismatic Pentecostal off-the-rails magic show.

    Discernment cuts through cosplay. Mercy meets practical needs, as does helps or service (not the pastor’s To Do Checklist). Wealth addresses orphans & widows, not private planes. Administration organizes but does not subvert agency.

    “Unlike the demagogues, real leaders will tell you to hold close. To your values, your most beloved. To be calm…” @ericgarland

    Your values – agency intact.

  40. Happy post-Thanksgiving everyone.

    I’m cynical enough to think that when it comes to The Village Church and churches that essentially are The Village Church, they could have been having their swing sessions on stage on Sunday and all you hear would be “Well I didn’t like that sermon, but this church does so much for missions.”

  41. James beamer,
    “Hey! How come it’s the men wife swapping! Why don’t you say a’ the wives were swapping their husbands’!”
    ++++++++++++++++

    a remedial explanation: the belief system of The Village Church is “complementarianism”, in which God commands the husband to lead and the wife to follow.

    just taking them at their word.

  42. elastigirl: the belief system of The Village Church is “complementarianism”, in which God commands the husband to lead and the wife to follow

    Well, this is the sickest use of complementarianism I have seen yet! A pastor who asks his wife to follow into this level of sin is wickedness of the worst order.

    I repeat … left unchecked, New Calvinism will lead to antinomianism.

  43. Stan: “Well I didn’t like that sermon, but this church does so much for missions.”

    We’ve heard stuff like this before … folks who defend their pastor no matter what … “Yes, I know he is a bad-boy sinner, but he sure can preach!”

  44. Bunsen Honeydew: Christianity has become more about having correct ideology than pure hearts and how people exercise the faith. When it is about ideology, it’s no longer about how you live.

    The reason we don’t hear much exhortation about holiness and purity is because we don’t have a pulpit which is holy.

  45. Max,

    “Well, this is the sickest use of complementarianism I have seen yet! A pastor who asks his wife to follow into this level of sin is wickedness of the worst order.”
    ++++++++++++

    the significant part is the wife becomes conditioned to be passive. to just go along.
    .
    .
    here’s a very mild example, of church culture hierarchy in general:

    i was with a group of friends from a previous church. several married couples, a few single women. we went to a sporting event. the expectation was that we’d do something together afterwards.

    when the sporting event was over we were all standing around chatting in small groups close together.

    it was evening, it was getting colder. people had mostly left, the venue was emptying out.

    how long were we going to keep standing here, chatting? it was the obvious question hanging in the air.

    the group of women i was chatting with started looking around in frustration. the men kept talking.

    past experiences with them all was reinforced at that moment, and I looked at them all and realized they all had been conditioned to do nothing until the pastor initiated something.

    and in that same moment i decided i’d change things up. so i said to everyone, men and women,

    “well, why don’t we go?”

    the women clutched their invisible pearls and the men looked like they’d just been punched, (with a touch of hyperbole), and after a bit of feet-shifting & spluttering, the pastor conceded.

    you’d have thought lightning struck, sasquatch materialized, mothman swooped over us, and a UFO started its descent all at once.

    if only…

  46. elastigirl: the significant part is the wife becomes conditioned to be passive. to just go along.

    Yes. And the men become conditioned to only consider themselves because the women are conditioned to never have an opinion.

    Another mild example…

    We hosted a holiday party for our small group. Nine adults and nine kids (ages 1.5-7).

    Two dads and all the women actively involved with the kids; other three men (including the dads of the rowdiest children) spent entire time chatting with each other at the table.

    Kids started to get tired. Women and aforementioned involved dads start to corral kids and put away toys. Uninvolved dads continued to chat away at the table. Their children were putting up a protest in another part of the house.

    I finally walked up and said, “Hey, maybe the dads could break up the party in the back?”

    And got roundly laughed at.

  47. Wild Honey,

    sigh….

    good for you for speaking up.

    what you describe… happens so often.

    the lack of awareness is staggering.

    they’re not bad men. they’re awareness-challenged, thanks to nature and nurture (which christian doctrine and culture encourage rather than confront).

    but as katherine hepburn said to humphrey bogart on the African Queen,

    “Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put on in this world to rise above.”

    i marvel at how christian culture prizes itself on having all the answers to produce elite people, and how sad & inferior the results.
    .
    .
    i am justified in being critical (but i call it realistic). i’ve invested my whole life in this religion, which turns out to be the silliest of all. i was sold a bill of goods.

    (christianity as wholly distinct from jesus of nazareth/Jehovah-/Holy Spirit)

  48. Samuel Conner: the human element, things like gentleness, grace and patience, in pastoral ministry is much harder to impart in the classroom setting. It may be better to screen for these traits, and that might be more possible if the candidates are people who are known to the congregation for a long time.

    That sounds like the apostle Paul’s view, as well.

  49. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Young(ish) Ian McShane, what a cutie. The Lovejoy tv character was less of a creep than the book character.

    Shakespeare’s Falstaff, now … supposed to be a “lovable rogue,” but he’s a textbook narcissistic abuser.

  50. Wild Honey: I finally walked up and said, “Hey, maybe the dads could break up the party in the back?”

    And got roundly laughed at.

    I’m fuming vicariously at that.

    Where I live, mothers do still handle the greater burden of child care, but fathers are expected to pitch in as well. It’s perfectly manly for dads to wade into rowdiness or do any child-care chore.

    The magic words here would have been, “Bill, can you give me a hand with Stevie?” However, Bill probably would have spotted the problem early on. He would have decided whether it was time to intervene, or let the kids handle it themselves while he paid close attention. He might have sidled up to the hostess and sought her opinion.

  51. Max,

    It kind of reminds me of mortal vs venial sin. You’ll be okay as long as you go to confession and do penance if it’s venial, at least in the eyes of many lay people. I grew up in a majority Catholic neighborhood where the thugs who mugged old ladies went to Saturday night confession so they could make mass and take communion on Sunday.

  52. Max,

    it wasn’t like this a few decades ago. in christian church culture in which I grew up (which mingled between various denominations and traditions), women and men worked together and made decisions together. women spoke their minds as freely as the men. having fun together as friends, challenging each other, as well.

    people were relaxed about the human body, too. there just weren’t a lot of charged issues. what mattered was kindness and generosity.

    there have been huge changes across the board in christianland.

    religion, including christianity, is what people make of it. thankfully, jesus/god/holy spirit are bigger than it all.

  53. Cynthia W.: Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Young(ish) Ian McShane, what a cutie. The Lovejoy tv character was less of a creep than the book character.

    True. They also considerably cleaned up Tinker (one of his sidekicks).

    TV Lovejoy became my archetype of how to do a Rogue character right.

    Did you notice that unlike the usual TV mystery/detective series, it wasn’t always a Murder Mystery? I think they had only one murder mystery during my favorite seasons 2-5 (with Eric has his apprentice/other sidekick); instead, most of the mysteries were the type a somewhat-shady antique dealer would encounter: fakes, frauds, cons, counter-cons, and general strangeness, all delivered with a wry sense of humor.

  54. Max: Well, this is the sickest use of complementarianism I have seen yet! A pastor who asks his wife to follow into this level of sin is wickedness of the worst order.

    To paraphrase an old Excedrin commercial:
    “ME MAN! ME WANT FILL-IN-THE-BLANK! YOU WOMAN! YOU SHUT UP!”

    I repeat … left unchecked, New Calvinism will lead to antinomianism.

    “Antinomanism”? Is there a simpler way to describe it that isn’t so technical?

  55. Cynthia W.: Shakespeare’s Falstaff, now … supposed to be a “lovable rogue,” but he’s a textbook narcissistic abuser.

    Wasn’t Falstaff intended as a comedy-relief character?
    And that Elizabethan standards of humor probably differed from ours?

  56. elastigirl: there have been huge changes across the board in christianland

    Much of the 21st century “church” reminds me of lyrics from an old song Living Life Upside Down (by Truth):

    “What if we’re knocking at the gates of hell
    Thinking that we’re heaven bound”

  57. WIth all the talk about “Just Like Seventies Swingers, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”, my mental database just retrieved an exchange from a Seventies made-for-TV B-movie (a murder mystery called “Isn’t It Shocking?”):

    “Crazy Marge Drinks Beer?”
    “Yeah. She’s a real Swinger!”
    “Nobody who goes to bed at eight every night can be a Swinger.”

  58. Headless Unicorn Guy: “Antinomanism”? Is there a simpler way to describe it that isn’t so technical?

    As defined by Merrian-Webster:

    “antinomian” … one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation; one who rejects a socially established morality

    I would say wife-swapping is a rejection of a socially established morality … at least in my neck of the woods.

  59. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    The original audience did find Falstaff funny. Of course, they also went to public hangings and bear-baitings for fun. My kids and I are reading the “Plantagenet Cycle” plays (Richard II, Henry 4-5-6, Richard III), and, knowing this was a popular, comic character, we were surprised at how utterly repulsive he was, in every way.

  60. I saw the same thing with husbands and wives all the time, as well. Including speaking for women when they aren’t around to speak for themselves.

    Even if they say their wives were on board it might actually be the men were for it so they automatically assume that’s what their wife wanted. Wives aren’t really a person for some of them – rather they’re only a plot device for the husband’s personal grand narrative, the wife didn’t exist before she met the husband and she doesn’t exist now outside his preferences. She’s like an object on a shelf in his little mind pantry where he goes to access her only when he needs to store something of *his* away, needs to use her for something he’s cooking up, needs her for sex and procreation, etc. Outside that she’s just kind of sitting there in his mind.

    I was constantly confused in all the evangelical circles I was a part of in college and my 20s, even as a single woman. Men often assumed or spoke for me and other women. Their perceptions had little to almost nothing to do with what my thoughts or intentions were about a subject and didn’t match me as a person at all. It never occured to them to a) let me speak in the first place and b) even have me around or invite me in so that I could. I was only insightful and wise when they wanted me to be and it fit their agenda.

    I think a lot back to the college ministry I was in and where a lot of this stuff starts – it was common for the boys and men to use women as scapegoats for *their * problematic behavior. They had little to no self reflection and often the woman was cast as dramatic or infantile (usually it was related to some sort of dating situation, but it sometimes pertained to other things that had a man or men involved) ….when she wasn’t the problem at all or in few cases only a little bit of the problem and not much.

    A lot of these men are “grown and harvested” in problematic college ministries, Bible colleges,and discipleship programs when they’re young. Then they’re perpetuated and enforced in those same dynamics and ideas in seminaries and churches when they leave their late teens early 20s. I’m sure for some it starts early in teenage years/youth group.

  61. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    It is extremely difficult to safely extract from someone like that. I’m glad you were able to recognize it and hopefully endure smear campaigns and abuse if that happened after you left.

    I think NPD and ASPD account for a lot of men I ran across in these circles. (A lot of men weren’t like that but it was definitely a pretty high percentage who were) A few women seemed NPD, too. Some people may more just be on the spectrum but not a full blown PD …which goes back to the question if its the environment and ideology messing with people who otherwise wouldn’t be that way or is it something already in the person like elastigirl mentioned.

    Basically these environments do little to encourage dealing with the concept of the self as is and how it interplays with theology and ministry. It is all an enmeshed mess trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

  62. emily honey,

    how in the world did this happen?
    .
    .
    i think of jesus, who was expressly not about wealth and not about power and not about who gets to be first,

    but rather things like willingly giving up wealth and power, selflessness, treating others the way you want to be treated — nay, actually preferring others to yourself, elevating those at the bottom, humility…

    how did his namesake religion turn into narcissist-jacka$$-master-&-servant-neurotic-dysfunction central?

    i mean, i could easily name names of those who’ve been glibly fashioning christianity into this, their own image, for everyone else,…
    .
    .
    but still, how did this happen?

  63. emily honey,

    “…NPD and ASPD…full blown PD

    …which goes back to the question if its the environment and ideology messing with people who otherwise wouldn’t be that way or is it something already in the person”
    +++++++++++++++

    i think we all are susceptible to things that go in the personality disorder direction.

    healthy human beings catch themselves at some point, and get themselves on a better track.

    christian culture interferes with all that.

    christian doctrine (the stuff that’s articulated and all the stuff that isn’t articulated — like the horrible sins of telling a sarcastic joke and wearing tank top when it’s 105 degrees) absolutely fosters neuroses & personality disorders.

    in fact, declares it’s biblical thus godly, holy, and what God commands.

    and then in-groups and out-groups are created. peer pressure. rejection and threats of ostracization, let alone the fires of hell.

    gahhhhd, what a festering mess.

  64. elastigirl: gahhhhd, what a festering mess.

    You said it elastigirl, you said it.
    I’m glad I jumped ship many years ago.
    It’s toxic (fundagelical culture) and it puts a monkey wrench into human flourishing.

  65. Friend: Where I live, mothers do still handle the greater burden of child care, but fathers are expected to pitch in as well. It’s perfectly manly for dads to wade into rowdiness or do any child-care chore.

    Seriously. Becoming a stay-at-home-mom within a conservative Christian sub-culture has made me far more of a feminist (in the traditional definition of the word) than public school, a secular university education, and seven years of working for a liberal/secular college ever did.

  66. elastigirl: i think of jesus, who was expressly not about wealth and not about power and not about who gets to be first

    If we used that criterion alone for Christian leaders, we would have to empty numerous American pulpits.

  67. Max: If we used that criterion alone for Christian leaders, we would have to empty numerous American pulpits.

    Which would be no great loss.
    Might even improve things.
    At the very least, less Shandas fur die Goyim.

  68. emily honey: I think a lot back to the college ministry I was in and where a lot of this stuff starts – it was common for the boys and men to use women as scapegoats for *their * problematic behavior.

    And arrested their development at that point, if not regressed it to toddler level.

    I could see this as an outsider (from “Growing up Martian”); what about some GUBA (Grew Up Born Again) immersed in Christianese Culture since conception with NO outside perspective or possibility of same? (I remember stories of people growing up in abusive-to-incestuous environments to whom that sort of stuff was NORMAL. And when you add God to the mix as Enforcer… THAT is the real meaning behind “Generational Curses”.)

  69. Bunsen Honeydew: Evangelicalism has a cultural problem. Yes, these men as individuals did these things. But there’s a system and construct that keeps leading to this sort of thing.

    Cheap grace has infected the church. New Calvinism has a particularly bad case of it.

  70. Max: Cheap grace has infected the church.New Calvinism has a particularly bad case of it.

    More accurately, they have created a highly-toxic closed system that cranks out the results you’d expect (and that any outsider could see). And total blind spots on insiders is one of those results.

  71. elastigirl: and then in-groups and out-groups are created. peer pressure. rejection and threats of ostracization, let alone the fires of hell.

    gahhhhd, what a festering mess.

    Lewis wrote an entire essay on that, “The Lure of the Inner Ring”.
    https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/

    Though these days its most visible manifestations are gangs and political cronyism. Even Racism is an Inner Ring of an ethnicially-defined In-Group; classic Gnosticism/Occultism/Conspiracy Crackpottery are all Inner Rings/In-Groups of “Tnose Who KNOW “What’s REALLY Going On”.

  72. Headless Unicorn Guy: “The Lure of the Inner Ring”.
    https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/

    Thanks, HUG … a fascinating article. I’m convinced that New Calvinism is comprised of concentric inner rings, where young reformers pay their dues (idolize leaders – buy their books, attend their conferences; tweet and retweet nuggets of knowledge from the masters; advance reformed theology in local communities; take over churches for the glory of the movement, etc.) before they move into the next ring closer to the center where the big-boys live, the ring from which all rings come forth. Someday, if they are faithful and true, they will rub shoulders with Pope Piper and King Mohler – they will have arrived at ‘The’ Inner Ring.

  73. Max:
    Whew!I continued reading … and now grieved in the inner man.Immoral behavior by church leaders is becoming far too common.This one is about as sick as it gets.The following sentence from Anna’s post paints the wicked picture well:

    “A pastor is standing in front of his congregation week after week, teaching and preaching; a worship pastor is leading moving and emotion-filled music services, appearing to be fully immersed in worshiping God and bringing glory to Him – but behind the scenes these two men are exchanging their spouses for sex.”

    I have to say I’m not surprised this happened in a New Calvinist “church” … as I’ve said before, the movement is drifting toward antinomianism.The overemphasis on grace-this and grace-that appears to be releasing these leaders from the obligation to observe moral law.And I’m not surprised that this came from the Acts 29 corner of New Calvinism, an organization which was founded by potty-mouth Mark Driscoll and now headed by Matt Chandler.

    When will this madness end?!

    It’s not just “New Calvinism”. Calvinism in general would lead toward that. After all, if you’re “elect”, the P in TULIP says that you can’t ever lose your salvation, no matter how wicked you may become. Calvin himself was an accomplice to murder.

    But to answer the original question: Chandler himself said he wasn’t a fan of the multi-site campus idea, as he was concerned that if it continued, you would only have 10-15 pastors left in the entire country. We already have some of that with Hillsong and Life.Church having campuses in the DFW area. Then add to that the local groups with multiple sites: besides Village, we have Fellowship, Gateway, Watermark, Lake Pointe, even Prestonwood has two locations (and if they were really into the movement they could easily have several more). And I believe that his decision to spin off the campuses was before some of this started happening.

  74. Max: Thanks, HUG … a fascinating article.I’m convinced that New Calvinism is comprised of concentric inner rings, where young reformers pay their dues (idolize leaders – buy their books, attend their conferences; tweet and retweet nuggets of knowledge from the masters; advance reformed theology in local communities; take over churches for the glory of the movement, etc.) before they move into the next ring closer to the center where the big-boys live, the ring from which all rings come forth.Someday, if they are faithful and true, they will rub shoulders with Pope Piper and King Mohler – they will have arrived at ‘The’ Inner Ring.

    That’s the same structure that the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists have. You only have to decide which branch to follow (Hyles, Sword of the Lord, etc.)

  75. It isn’t just “New Calvinism” into antinomianism, Calvinism in general leads to that. If you’re “elect”, then the P in TULIP teaches that you’re never out no matter what. And remember, Calvin was an accomplice to murder.

  76. To address the original question: Chandler himself said that he only adopted the other sites because they were running out of space at Flower Mound. He never really liked it as he thought if it continued, you might have only 10-15 pastors left in the country.

    Given that both Hillsong and Life.Church have campuses in multiple cities (including DFW) he has a point. Then add to that the local groups with multiple sites: besides Village, we have Fellowship, Watermark, Gateway, even Prestonwood has two sites (if they were REALLY into the movement they could easily have several more).

    And I believe Chandler made those comments before all this took place. So I don’t believe he was dumping sites to pass trash. Though nothing would surprise me either.

  77. Max: Thanks, HUG … a fascinating article. I’m convinced that New Calvinism is comprised of concentric inner rings,

    This is a problem, and baked into their DNA. The A29 church we used to attend that folded after 12-ish years (1 year after the founding pastor left)… At a church-planting conference I attended there, pastors were advised (by someone now an executive director of A29) to plant a church on their own (so that no one else’s vision would get in the way), and to immediately gather a group of guys to start training up (and weeding out) into leadership positions. Our pastor followed this advice. What it turned into was men’s ministry literally becoming invite-only (hello, Inner Ring), an extremely high turnover of other pastors/elders (hello, Celebrity Pastor disorder), and the church folding between the twin hits of founding/celebrity pastor departing and pandemic.

    So frustrating thinking about the number of damaged souls left in this wake.

  78. Wild Honey: So frustrating thinking about the number of damaged souls left in this wake.

    When the New Calvinism bubble breaks (it will), there will be tens of thousands of discouraged and disillusioned followers joining the Done ranks.

    “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord.” (Acts 5) The new reformation will fade into oblivion within a few years … it’s merely human.

  79. Max: When the New Calvinism bubble breaks (it will), there will be tens of thousands of discouraged and disillusioned followers joining the Done ranks.

    Why stop at Done?
    You’re going to see some who really got burned going all the way to None.
    i.e. Atheism Uber Alles.

    And even if it “fades into oblivion within a few years”, how much damage will it do in the meantime? The Third Reich only lasted 13 years, the USSR for just over 70.

  80. Max:
    Whew!I continued reading … and now grieved in the inner man.Immoral behavior by church leaders is becoming far too common.This one is about as sick as it gets.The following sentence from Anna’s post paints the wicked picture well:

    “A pastor is standing in front of his congregation week after week, teaching and preaching; a worship pastor is leading moving and emotion-filled music services, appearing to be fully immersed in worshiping God and bringing glory to Him – but behind the scenes these two men are exchanging their spouses for sex.”

    I have to say I’m not surprised this happened in a New Calvinist “church” … as I’ve said before, the movement is drifting toward antinomianism.The overemphasis on grace-this and grace-that appears to be releasing these leaders from the obligation to observe moral law.And I’m not surprised that this came from the Acts 29 corner of New Calvinism, an organization which was founded by potty-mouth Mark Driscoll and now headed by Matt Chandler.

    When will this madness end?!

    The way to deal with this kind of behavior, though, is not to stop preaching grace. God’s grace is the ONLY way anybody can ever be saved and resorting to a false faith plus works gospel is never the answer. By engaging in these terrible acts and being such terrible examples for their congregations, these pastors are opening themselves up to being disciplined by God (if, indeed, they even ARE truly saved to begin with and are God’s born-again children through Christ.) If they are saved, then they will definitely lose eternal rewards they could have earned when Christ judges them at the Bema seat. If they’re not truly saved and they continue to refuse to put their faith in Christ, they will suffer for all eternity for this and for every other sin they’ve ever committed.

    expreacherman.com

  81. SoSickOfAbuseEnabling: The way to deal with this kind of behavior, though, is not to stop preaching grace. God’s grace is the ONLY way anybody can ever be saved and resorting to a false faith plus works gospel is never the answer.

    Agreed. It’s the message of “cheap grace” not “costly Grace” which gets folks in trouble. The enemy of God offers counterfeits to everything, including “grace.”