1?

Should be Murray O’Hare

Jackie Newton:
I got a chain letter in the mail today saying atheist Madelyn Mary O’Hare was circulating a petition to get the government to remove Christian television and radio from the airwaves. Please send this chain letter to 10 other people!

Fear is a powerful motivator.

There might be a bit of “Pascal’s wager” lurking behind credulous embrace of conspiracy theories, in the sense that one might reckon that if it is possible that the speculative theory is right, one would be endangering oneself to not take appropriate precautions. I have known people who became preoccupied with “warfare prayer” against demonic powers, that they seemed to fear as much as or more than they feared God.

Sadly, we are experiencing real world endangerment because of prior speculation in the other direction, that a concrete emerging threat in another part of the world might not have as serious consequences here as it was having there. The failures in preparation, that are having serious consequences for us now, are so pervasive that they invite the interpretation of “intention”, but it is probably better to chalk them up to “incompetence.” There’s a well-known saying, that one should never attribute to “malice” what can be explained by “stupidity.”

Jackie Newton: I got a chain letter in the mail today saying atheist Madelyn Mary O’Hare was circulating a petition to get the government to remove Christian television and radio from the airwaves. Please send this chain letter to 10 other people!

Madalyn Murray O’Hair, the American atheist who is credited with removal of prayer and Bible reading in public schools through a successful Supreme Court challenge, was kidnapped, murdered, dismembered, and burned by a work associate in 1995. She is not circulating anti-Christian petitions for anything any longer.

Back in the late 80s, a friend who I hadn’t heard from for several years contacted me by phone. She then proceeded to tell me that she had been receiving “counseling” because her parents belonged to a Satanic sex ring and she had been abused by her parents and associates as a child. She had found it in the retrieval of all her repressed memories. The family came apart, she lost most of her friends and, almost, her marriage. None of it was true, but the damage to the family was very bad.

Muff Potter,

Thx, Muff Potter, for that Scripture.

Another seeks to do what Scripture says, an unlikely source:

April 6 at 7:56 AM:
“In three short months, just like He did with the plagues of Egypt, God has taken away everything we worship. God said, ‘you want to worship athletes, I will shut down the stadiums. You want to worship musicians, I will shut down Civic Centers. You want to worship actors, I will shut down theaters. You want to worship money, I will shut down the economy and collapse the stock market. You don’t want to go to church and worship Me, I will make it where you can’t go to church’.

“‘If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.’

“Maybe we don’t need a vaccine, Maybe we need to take this time of isolation from the distractions of the world & have a personal revival where we focus on the ONLY thing in the world that really matters. Jesus.” – Hulk Hogan

With all respect, the above quote could be taken in different ways, but it did make me stop and think. I would add that we may need to re-think the appropriateness of the megachurch model, even as we seek God and the real Church.

Ava Aaronson,

I agree that we’re wise to take a look at the damage that megachurches have created.

However, Hulk Hogan is saying that God sent covid-19 to get our attention. Hulk Hogan is also saying that God thinks human beings worship actors and athletes. That line of thinking blames the victims and turns God into a cartoon villain.

People all around the world are dying from a virus to which humans have no immunity. The good news is that billions of people are striving to stop the pandemic, whether by treating the sick or simply staying home to shield themselves and others. This is how we are using our God-given minds.

“Amway is deeply embedded in today’s churches.”

You mean corporately or metaphorically? I recall the counseling group profiled here that aspects that seemed akin to a pyramid scheme where the new traineees appeared to feed business as it were to higher-ups in the endeavor.

*sigh*

I remember Mike Warnke. My ISCF (Inter-School Christian Fellowship) group in high school listened to some of his comedy routines on tape. Can’t deny — he was quite the skilled raconteur. He knew how to tell a story, and make it really funny. Even now, and knowing what I know, I can’t help but smile remembering bits like “Buck the Angel”.

Which made it all the more heartbreaking to learn he was a liar and huckster.

Hate to think what these people would say about Harry Potter…

Samuel Conner: chain letter is actually a conspiracy to improve USPS revenue

The scales fall from my eyes! And yet it seems like only yesterday that we were told chain letters are illegal because they overburden the postal system.

Maybe today I’ll put on a mask and ask the mailman about postal shapeshifting. 😉

Is gullibility *really* at an all-time high, though? Mike Warnke was exposed in 1992, Peter Popoff was exposed by James Randi in 1986, and the farther back you go, the more nonsense you find in terms of faith healers and such. When I was growing up, there was massive concern about playing D&D and how it’d expose you to witchcraft (because spells), in the 90’s somehow Pokemon became a concern. In the early 1900’s you had the beginnings of the Pentecostal movement with the Azusa Street revival. You go back a couple hundred years and you’ve got witch hunts and all that. The nonsense of today might be different in character, but I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that people are more credulous today that they were in the past.

In general, people aren’t good at critical thinking, unless they put a lot of work into it (even aside from whether they’re religious or not). And I suggest that being imbued in religious belief hurts critical thinking faculties, rather than helps them. At the very root, religious belief requires people to accept things for which there’s little to know evidence – and what evidence there is, is of poor quality. From the existence of a God, to the notion that the Bible is the word of God, to that God requiring blood sacrifice, to the notion that we as imperfect humans are naturally condemned to something bad, to the blood sacrifice of Christ (to himself in the form of God) being required to create a loophole that believers can step through to get out of the problem of that condemnation – it all requires a belief in the absence of really good evidence. And I think that once you’re brought up to think that way, it’s kind of tough to step out and respond to claims with “Ummm, yeah, you say that – but I need to see evidence.” or “Nope, your evidence is crappy”.

One interesting thing to note is that magicians have been at the heart of the scientific skepticism movement that encourages critical thinking. James Randi for decades was the leader of the movement and started the Million Dollar Challenge (offering a million bucks to anyone who could demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria), Penn and Teller have been involved for a long time, even Harry Houdini was known for denouncing spiritualists and mediums. It’s a natural fit for magicians, because they’re experts at knowing how people can be fooled.

In other news, Junior has announced that two journalists who criticized him have warrants for their arrest. Of course, those warrants were made by LU police and not signed by a judge because they are ridiculous.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/08/liberty-university-falwell-reporters-warrants-176346

So much for “liberty”…

ishy: warrants were made by LU police and not signed by a judge because they are ridiculous.

The article says, “There is no warrant for the author of the Times article, Elizabeth Williamson, because the magistrate judge did not find enough physical evidence to charge her, Falwell said.” So that’s a bit more somber.

At this time, many American courthouses are closed for all but very limited purposes, such as domestic violence cases and releasing inmates who have completed their sentences.

1) Junior is nonetheless demanding the attention of a magistrate, who might have less frivolous things to do. I hope the magistrate handled this matter by video or electronic correspondence; but the whole court system nationwide is under huge stress right now.

2) Freedom of the press is a First Amendment thing, even if you don’t like the outlet. So the notion of frivolity suddenly changes. Maybe this is why the magistrate viewed this as something more than Junior yelling “get off my lawn.”

Ava Aaronson: With all respect, the above quote could be taken in different ways, but it did make me stop and think. I would add that we may need to re-think the appropriateness of the megachurch model, even as we seek God and the real Church.

Respectfully Ava, I think it’s a question of balance between what Scripture says, what it does not say, and as Friend put it, using our God given minds and the better angels of our nature to determine what’s what.

Without balance, there are the Orwellian extremes of fundamental atheism, and the extremes of the opposite polarity; like this guy here:

https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/perry-stone-the-coronavirus-is-attacking-older-people-who-wont-take-the-mark-of-the-beast/

Talk about a conspiracy theorist!

Meredithwiggle: Needless To say, I wasn’t allowed to read them.

It’s not too late – the HP books are good entertainment at any age!
I have memories of a Professor at Cornell who seemed a very humble man; he taught linguistics and he and his wife had were heavily involved in Wycliffe Bible Translators, having come out of the field to teach for a while. But he told us how he still read through the Narnia Chronicles (“children’s” books) every year!

The problem with 5G is that it makes some people stupid before it’s even been turned on. Very dangerous!

Someone I immediately unfriended on FB said the overcrowded hospitals from Covid19 is a hoax because someone posted pictures of empty hospital beds. “Citizen journalists” as she called them, were doing the real work instead of the corporate media with its agenda. I told her I didn’t need such idiocy on my Newsfeed. I’ve known this woman for years and, though I don’t agree with her theology or politics, did not believe she was this crazy.

Allie: Someone I immediately unfriended on FB said the overcrowded hospitals from Covid19 is a hoax because someone posted pictures of empty hospital beds. “Citizen journalists” as she called them, were doing the real work instead of the corporate media with its agenda. I told her I didn’t need such idiocy on my Newsfeed. I’ve known this woman for years and, though I don’t agree with her theology or politics, did not believe she was this crazy.

This sounds exactly what my friend said, down to “citizen journalists”. And I had the same reaction as you.

If they were attempting to do proper journalism, they’d cite their sources.

Gus: The problem with 5G is that it makes some people stupid before it’s even been turned on. Very dangerous!

You may very well be onto something Gus.
Ever noticed how phone zombies seem completely oblivious to their surroundings?

Muff Potter: Years ago, I had a Calvary Chapel pastor tell me that King’s works are directly inspired by the devil, and that Christians should not be reading them.

Calvary Chapel.
Why am I not surprised?

dee: Nathan Priddis: You would think if 5G really was frightning an individual, they would at least look it up online, and find its just millimeter wave bands.

My point exactly. Why don’t these people Google it?

Because Everything that would come up is ALL DISINFORMATION PLANTED BY THE CONSPIRACY.
“The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs! We Won’t Be Taken In!”

My mom (god bless her) loved her tin foil hat. She introduced me to Mike Warnake in high school and even took me to hear him in person. I have an old friend (and devoted follower of my mother) on Facebook that is deeply into the crazy currently. Everyday she posts the latest crazy videos about 5G, and Wisconsin doctors being told by the state to put the Covid virus down as cause of death for everyone who dies, Patriots beware they are lying to us, yada yada yada. I just finally had to put her on ignore. I see this a lot with christians that are being told constantly that the are under persecution. When I homeschooled my daughter this persecution idea was pushed by so many homeschool families. They just never look out of their bubbles and see the real world.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Hulk Hogan’s Instagram shows him manpraying (I don’t know how else to describe it) against a wall painted with these words:

I AM
THAT
I AM
HULK HOGAN

His forearm tattoo says “I Am That, I Am.” (Comma may or may not be artist’s error, but it’s there.)

His back tattoo says “IMMORTAL.”

So I guess maybe Hulk Hogan sent covid-19 to get our attention because we… worship… athletes. But don’t tell anybody. I wouldn’t want to start a rumor.

Prayer Request:

My son-in-law’s grandmother just tested positive for COVID-19. She is 92, living in a nursing home; so far, not showing symptoms. Several in that facility have tested positive this week. Please pray for her, in addition to the other residents and staff facing this. Thank you, Wartburgers.

Max,

I just prayed for her.

elastigirl: as in God hates beer,

Well, there are in fact some carbonated grain beverages passed off as beer that should be hated. Just saying.

Friend: Around here all the rumors are about people eating bat soup in China. Try to say they don’t actually eat bats, and you’ll get, “But they DO eat DOGS!”

The bats are not in the soup, my friends. They’re in the belfry.

Some researchers think that both bats and pangolins are the original carriers of the covid-19 virus. They are cautious to say that the evidence would suggest it based on more than just casual correlation, but will not say that their data is conclusive.
Nonetheless, it is well known that pangolin meat is highly prized by the Chinese and that many believe their scales have medicinal properties.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/how-did-the-coronavirus-start-where-did-it-come-from-how-did-it-spread-humans-was-it-really-bats-pangolins-wuhan-animal-market

Muff Potter,

I have a copy of a paper in “The Lancet” in which the authors sequenced the genetic material in COVID-19…. it contains sequence(s) consistent with corona viruses in Bats. COVID-19 is a recombination of a human and bat viruses… just like SARS and MERS.
That is why these viruses are so nasty..

Max,

on my prayer agenda

elastigirl,

re: “magical thinking”, I’ve come to the view that a fundamental error (and I was deep into it for most of my life) is the confidence that “I understand this ancient document written by long-ago people whose world-view and culture I only dimly understand”.

I no longer subscribe to “the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture” (a doctrine which I’m not confident is itself taught in the Scriptures, but which is — I think — considered necessary to assume for the sake of the idea that the Book ought to be widely accessible to everyone).

I think this may speak to Richard’s comment above as well. Like Dee, I found that a bit strongly worded, but I also found myself mentally concurring at many places. Assuming that one understands the Scriptures (since they are perspicuous — indeed, in some corners of the church, it is considered impious to believe that they might not be), it is easy to form strong subjective opinions that are objectively flawed (to the extent that one’s understanding of the text is flawed, incomplete, improperly applied to present circumstances, etc, etc — these things are not hard to fall into).

But combining one’s belief that one understands the text with one’s confidence that the text is Divine revelation … the opportunities are many for that to lead into unhappy places.

In recent years I have been trying to have fewer opinions and more questions awaiting answers. I think of it as “conditional theology”. “If X is true, then that would imply Y; but I don’t know with full certainty that X is true.”

Muff Potter,

Also, poor pangolins. 🙁 They really have it rough these days.

Friend: Around here all the rumors are about people eating bat soup in China. Try to say they don’t actually eat bats, and you’ll get, “But they DO eat DOGS!”

Northern Chinese say Southern Chinese will eat anything with four legs except a table, and they’re not too sure of the table.

dee,

I apologize if I phrased anything to indicate that I thought that all religious folks are stupid or gullible – I’d never say that. I mean, I was a religious person til I was over 30, and I wasn’t stupid – but I did have a blind spot, a set of beliefs that I’d accepted but never really examined. People of all sorts (religious, non-religious, atheist, conservative, liberal) have blind spots, especially for things that are deeply-held beliefs. And depending on the society, it’s pretty easy to keep a blind spot to a belief when questioning the belief is going to bring you tons of grief.

Belief in things that lack evidentiary warrant permeates to *all* strata of society. I’ve got one atheist friend who’s an anti-vaxxer & believer in various unsubstantiated alt-med stuff, and another atheist friend who’s a 9/11 Truther. I’ve into run into atheists where, as I chat with them, I come to conclude that their reasoning for not believing in God is itself faulty – like, they came to the same conclusion as I did, but through crappy reasoning. I believe that Isaac Newton & Francis Collins (and many others) were/are brilliant scientists – and yet I don’t agree with them on the God question (and Newton apparently spent a lot of his time on alchemy, which maybe wasn’t the best choice). I’ve heard Collin’s anecdote about how he came back to Christianity (frozen stream in 3 parts), and I don’t find it compelling whatsoever – but he does. So, gullibility isn’t limited to religion – but I do think [though I don’t have a link to hand of a great study, and it’s late & I’m working on actual work] that religious belief tends to make people more susceptible to sloppy thinking, to belief in things that aren’t supported by evidence. It’s not alone, there’s a lot of new-age hippie-dippie type movements that I think tend to bring out the same tendencies in people.

So, I think we’ve got to do what we can to root out our own blind spots, on whatever subject. I just had a moment last week in Food Lion, looking for a big jar of Jif peanut butter, which was naturally all gone – but there *was* a big jar of store-brand. My tendency was to forget it and come back later, because Jif is the good stuff, right? But I realized I’ve got no really good reason to believe that, so I bought the store brand – and they seem to taste the same (though to be sure I need to have my wife help me conduct a blinded test). In general, the skepticism that I adhere to values method over any particular conclusion. It’s all about the process, testability of empirical claims, evidence, that sort of thing.

readingalong:
Hate to think what these people would say about Harry Potter…

Sigh. Still haven’t managed to erase from my teenage memory being chewed out by a church lady when she saw a fantasy novel that I’d been reading.

Keeping in mind that I went to a public school in a liberal part of the country… I had a couple friends whose parents wouldn’t let them read Harry Potter. One was Presbyterian, the other was Mormon. The Presbyterian has become a “done,” I’ve lost track of the other.

Muff Potter: Indeed they are.

Years ago, I had a Calvary Chapel pastor tell me that King’s works are directly inspired by the devil, and that Christians should not be reading them.

Awkward question… when did the devil sit down with this pastor and let him in on the Stephen King secret?

Richard,

Spot on

And coupled with compartmentalized thinking makes critical thinking difficult

As I continue to reflect on Dee’s original post, and think about my own fundamentalist training years ago, I will give a perspective that reflects my experiences/life… I am not claiming this is why illusionary, magical, Conspiracy thinking appeals to others..
Back in my bad old days, the fundalmentaost did a great job in making me think “ we have the all the answers to life’s questions”…. Given the “simplistic”world view of fundamentalism, It has to resort to “illusionary, magical, conspiracy theories” to explain our complex, dare I say, “ unknowable” world….
So, this way of thinking appealed to my pride… “I know the answers”
In contrast, as I have grown up, Experience life, and studied, the more I feel I do NOT Understand things, and the more I am OK with that… and the people that “hate” what I just said are the most “fundamentalist” of my Aquaintances

Max,

Yup… I have similar stories from my fundy days..

Jeffrey Chalmers: In contrast, as I have grown up, Experience life, and studied, the more I feel I do NOT Understand things, and the more I am OK with that… and the people that “hate” what I just said are the most “fundamentalist” of my Aquaintances

That!!!!

Max,

🙂

Headless Unicorn Guy: “SAY-TANNNNN-IC!”

Or, as I prefer to say, Satin-icky.

Muff Potter,

“.38 Special

Great Band (takes me back)!
Great Song!”
++++++++++++++

i love 70s music. i wasn’t allowed to listen to it as a young kid.

things devolved to me riding my bike to the public library, checking out LPs, and bringing them home in secret.

I’d play them on my little orange and white plastic record player with the big plastic knobs (it opened and closed like a cute little suitcase, with hinges). No more Disney storybooks-with-records for me!

i also had a transistor radio. i’d lay in bed at night and flip through the stations listening to the forbidden music. Steely Dan is a big memory of those nights. I found stations a thousand miles away — it was wondrous. and so fun to be rebellious in secret.

my parents finally came to their senses when i was in 6th grade (right before the decade changed).

i consider this greatest measure of my mom’s love for me:

for my birthday, she went to Tower Records, found the Rock section, rifled through all the little 45’s until she found ‘My Sharona’ and ‘Pop Musik’ and bought them for me.

now i just love 70s music – maybe i’ll be forever catching up with what i was denied, but i think it’s more that the music is so honest:

played with natural heart and soul as opposed to overproduced-synthetic heart and soul. nothing like a real drum set and guitar solo played from the heart.

dee,

Thx. Excellent read:

“…ethical responsibility to inform the public about what the peer-reviewed scientific literature tells us…”

More of this.

Samuel Conner,

“I think this may speak to Richard’s comment above as well. Like Dee, I found that a bit strongly worded, but I also found myself mentally concurring at many places. …

But combining one’s belief that one understands the text with one’s confidence that the text is Divine revelation … the opportunities are many for that to lead into unhappy places.”
++++++++++++++

to one extent or another, people of faith all believe they understand at least certain parts of the text and that it is in some fashion divinely inspired.

(i include myself here)

continuing to wonder:

at some point, faith becomes ‘magical’. where is this magical point?

Max: New Calvinists secretly plotted to take over Christendom in a single generation.

Max, you’ve figured it out! The mailman just brought me the New Calvinist Hunker Down Cookbook, with Hulk Hogan’s recipe for Bat Salad with Pangolin Dressing! They’re all in it together aaaiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

elastigirl: Steely Dan is a big memory of those nights.

AMEN!
Steely Dan’s Aja is one of the best albums to ever come out of that era.

Muff Potter: Fundamental atheism is just as rabidly dogmatic as extreme fundagelicalism.

Both sides would be disgusted to find out they are actually very similar people. But in my experience, they are…

You wanted these to keep coming: https://www.foxnews.com/us/philadelphia-pastor-former-eagles-rb-wont-close-doors-for-super-bowl-of-sundays

Samuel Conner: and perfectly

that of course, should be, emphatically, “ not perfectly”

which is a useful illustration of my point.

Muff Potter,

“Those guys (Calvary Chapel pastors) believe they are put there by the Lord to make such critical decisions for their people; lifestyles, reading material, listening material, you name it, any and all push-back is considered to be ‘as the sin of witchcraft’”
+++++++++++++++++++

while at my former former former church (1st Church of Dysfunction), my husband and i were meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Pastor.

(we were volunteers, running a department at the church which professional christians are paid 3-figure salaries for. For us to volunteer between 20-30 hours per week and for others to be paid $100,000+ are both equally ridiculous)

A couples’ marriage was being discussed (they had married within the last few years; Mr. Pastor told them not to, for some reason).

“Either he has all authority, or no authority,” said Mrs. Pastor about her husband.

(referring to Mr. Pastor was just for show – they wielded ‘all authority’ together)

an instant freeze crackled all over my skin at that moment.

it took far too long for us to extricate ourselves after that day.

i think a propensity to control others comes with the pastor hat. i think the wear-ers of that hat have to work hard to fight against that urge.

Satin: I believed some satin-icky systems of lies for decades, including a big one called complementarianism and a whopper called every man’s battle.

I hope you can find freedom from the debilitating horse-crap sold by Arterburn and others in the fundagelical industrial complex. What helped me immensely in my escape from their insanity is Emma Lazarus’s poem The New Colossus.

dee: I believe that the evidence is overwhelming that you are correct.

Now, if we could just link Al Mohler’s membership in the secret society Dodeka to the eternal subordination of women …

Friend,

There is real irony in all of this…. how many “Protestants” have died over the last 400 plus years in “power struggles” over who had the “authority” with respect Man’s relationship with G$d. Yet, Protestants, are so quick to replace the “one”pope with many, more “local” little pops….

Jeffrey Chalmers: how many “Protestants” have died over the last 400 plus years in “power struggles” over who had the “authority” with respect Man’s relationship with G$d. Yet, Protestants, are so quick to replace the “one”pope with many, more “local” little pops….

Each claiming Infallibility Ex Cathedra far more extreme than any RCC Pope.

(Though the first Pope to propose Papal Infallibilty originally claimed almost that level of Infallibility to judge matters of Faith and Doctrine. In the RCC, such a question of doctrine has to be decided in council by ALL the Bishops. The Bishops in council pretty much asked said Pope what was he using for reality and put serious limits and restrictions on what could be claimed Infallibly Ex Cathedra. In the century and a half since, it has only been invoked twice.)

Samuel Conner: Self-doubt is a virtue (and is highly adaptive, as it allows one to be more alert to dangers that the self-confident may overlook), and IMO a lot of what postures as “confidence in God and confidence in the Scriptures” is actually a form of self-confidence, that “sanctifies” itself by appeal to God/Scripture.

“If one has the answers to all the questions – that is the proof that God is not with him. It means that he is a false prophet using religion for himself. The great leaders of the people of God, like Moses, have always left room for doubt. You must leave room for the Lord, not for our certainties; we must be humble.”
— Pope Francis

ishy: Muff Potter: Fundamental atheism is just as rabidly dogmatic as extreme fundagelicalism.

Both sides would be disgusted to find out they are actually very similar people. But in my experience, they are…

Fundamentalism is a set of attitudes that can attach itself to ANY belief system.
Not necessarily a religious one.

dee: The most important thing about conspiracy theories that even one person telling the truth would uncover the truth.Does she think that all doctors in Wisconsin would *do what they are told?*

They will if they’re ALL part of The Vast Conspiracy.

Problem is, Conspiracy Beliefs grow and metastasize like cancer until they spread over the entire world except the Conspiracy Crackhead. (Bob Dylan’s “Talking John Birch Society Blues” is a humorous take on this.)

“If your Conspiracy Theory doesn’t fit the facts, INVENT A BIGGER CONSPIRACY!”
— Kooks Magazine

“THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
— Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle

Iowa Steve,

I suspect a better way to phrase it is some atheists can be as rabidly dogmatic over some issues. See those who embrace Jesus mythicism for an example (note I think there is a lot of non-factual stuff written about him and early Christianity, but, I agree with almost all historians of the era, Christian and non-Christian, that Jesus lived and died and sparked what was to become Christianity).

Erp: atheists

Atheists do Christians a great service by calibrating our bee ess detectors. Some things are just hard to see from the inside.

Ken F (aka Tweed): Even extreme atheists live by faith because no one could even get out of bed if they did not have faith that the floor would hold them up.

Is that faith, though? Is that an example of atheism? Nobody spends a millisecond wondering about the floor.

Friend,

Ken F (aka Tweed): “Even extreme atheists live by faith because no one could even get out of bed if they did not have faith that the floor would hold them up.”

Friend: “Is that faith, though? Is that an example of atheism? Nobody spends a millisecond wondering about the floor.”
+++++++++++

i think i went down a logic wormhole many years ago that resembles these ideas…

no chance i’ll ever get there again, but here’s a cursory thought:

perhaps faith is something beyond cause and effect.

so getting up out of bed and standing on the floor is a cause & effect thing.

eating only foods that are yellow (according to one religion i heard about) is outside of cause and effect.

praying and having a sense of peace is a cause and effect thing.

God forgiving our sins because Jesus died on the cross in outside of cause and effect.

…..just rambling….i think it, i write it….

elastigirl: perhaps faith is something beyond cause and effect.

I very much agree. Prayer is not a transaction. God is not like a store clerk who hands me good health in exchange for my prayer; or salvation in exchange for magic words. Christianity (to me at least) is about story, relationship, reconciliation, repentance, tradition, and some distinctive principles for living. I rely on Jesus to supply the salvation and have no time for threats of h e double toothpicks.

#NotATheologian
#MaxKnowsMoreThanIDo

Friend,

It’s not faith at all, because it’s based in knowledge and evidence,

Liz: It’s not faith at all, because it’s based in knowledge and evidence,

Assuming that you are referring to getting out of bed and standing on the floor, I’m not even sure it’s based on knowledge and evidence. It’s more a thoughtless assumption, unless you happen to be in a place where the floor is unreliable, or you have a medical condition that makes standing up a risky activity.

Back in the 1990s there was a man making the rounds in Churches claiming he was in the mafia, came to Christ, and was the only person who left the mafia alive. I too was enamored with his testimony. Went to see him speak twice. Both times, same church, the house was packed.

About 5-10 years ago, it occurred to me to do a google search on this gentleman, as I had a hunch that if Mike Warnke can be a huckster, why not this man. Turns out my hunch was correct.

Friend: Atheists do Christians a great service by calibrating our bee ess detectors. Some things are just hard to see from the inside.

LOL, yes! Now if only more Christians would stop and listen instead of crying “persecution” or “I don’t have to listen to you because you’re of the world,” maybe we could actually move toward a decent working relationship.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

HUG, you always seem to be able to close the loop. Keen eye for those things.

elastigirl,

…i think i just spent a lot of time parsing the obvious there.

Max,

I’ve said a prayer for your son-in-law’s grandmother, Max. I hope that she will get through the infection, and that matters won’t get too bad at her nursing home.

Praying for you and your husband, too, Dee. Please do all you must to take care of yourselves.

Possibly off topic. I was in a text exchange with my millenial son the other day ans I asked him how he types so quickly. He said he does not go for accuracy but iastead relies on autocorrect. But when I do that I get terrible results. Loke in my comment above where “are condoned” was supposed to “or condoned.” Or even the way it cannot correct “ans” or “iastead” in this comment. But then it dawned on me that millenials are writing the autocorrect code. So it really is a conspiracy after all, and therefore on topic.

Friend: Satin: Mr Pastor quoted Dobson

I think I’ve spotted the problem.

Scary thing is, when X told Mr Perfect about this the first time they went for coffee, he agreed! and told her how his evil Dobson-quoting dead wife (who refused to have sex with him for 30 years but he was absolutely faithful to her anyway) used Dobson to excuse beating the kids.

Satin: used Dobson to excuse beating the kids.

Slight correction based on my extended family: Dobson demands beating the kids. His readers are only obeying orders.

Ken F (aka Tweed): Atheists have faith there is no God because they trust that there is no proof for God. Whether or not that is magical thinking is an other topic/discussion.

I think agnosticism is a bit more logical in this sense than atheism, because I’m not sure how you would have enough evidence that there is no God. Humans frankly just don’t know that much individually, either.

My atheist family member has repeatedly said to me, “I know there’s no God because I KNOW!” He sounds quite similar to the fundamentalist Christians I know. While some atheists might have a much better rationale, not all of them do.

ishy: I think agnosticism is a bit more logical in this sense than atheism, because I’m not sure how you would have enough evidence that there is no God.

Actually, we are all agnostics to one extent or another because all of us are lacking knowledge. Some people come to the conclusion to believe in God based on limited evidence. Others come to the conclusion to not believe in God, also based on limited evidence. Either decision is taken on faith. Even to not decide is to make a decision based on faith – believing there is not enough evidence to make a decision. And Whether we admit it to ourselves or not, we all take actions based on what we believe.

Friend:
ishy,
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The discussion was about having evidence. But I think that comes out to the same conclusion anyway and I agree with Ken. To some extent, to feel certain about anything requires some amount of faith. I think agnosticism is a bit more logical because it admits a gap where others may not.

Ken F (aka Tweed): Actually, we are all agnostics to one extent or another because all of us are lacking knowledge. Some people come to the conclusion to believe in God based on limited evidence.

I agree with you. I definitely think the atheist in my life employs just as much faith in his atheism as I do in faith. And I don’t think his reasons are entirely about evidence, as he claims, but a desire for there not to be a God. Maybe it’s for simplicity’s sake, but I think it’s more about personal control.

elastigirl: no one will ever figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

Well, we first have to define what kind of a pin we are talking about…
Wait! I am now sounding like Piper! This telework confinement must be getting to me. Hopefully I will only have to endure it for a season.

Muff Potter: elastigirl: no one will ever figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin because it is unknowable, and more importantly it is of zero consequence.

I gotta’ say though, I still think the dance tunes are Disco.

Evidence!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J123lM0RvzM

Muff Potter: the establishment of a State coffee.

This will spin off another conspiracy theory…

dee:
Richard,

I laughed at your example-I happen to like Jif-extra crunchy and would hesitate to buy another brand, primarily because I don’t like wasting money.

Let’s go further with you theory of the *blind spot.*I assume that you mean that those who believe in God have a blind spot when it comes to faith. You say a lack of evidence supports your theory. You claim that your previous belief was abandoned because you discovered you had a blind spot which was a lack sufficient evidence. I hope I have that right.

I assume you believe that your current state of understanding is logical and that it is based on irrefutable evidence. Would you be willing to share what that evidence is and why you believe that it lacks any sort of blind spot?

No, I wouldn’t say that my current state of understanding is based on irrefutable evidence. I define myself as “agnostic atheist” or “weak atheist”, which means that I do not have a belief in a deity, and that I don’t necessarily believe it’s possible to *know* whether there’s a deity or not. So I don’t claim to know that there is no God – though I think it’s likely that there is no God. So, I looked at the evidence for existence of God, and the notion that the Bible is the word of a deity, and so on and so on, and found that it was generally lacking.

I don’t really find absolute certainty in *anything* – I try to proportion my acceptance of claims/facts to the evidence for them, and everything is at least somewhat tentative (i.e. given evidence, I’m willing to change my mind). That’s true of the God question as it is any other question. I don’t know what it’d take to convince me of the existence of a God, because most anything that we witness could also be the product of some highly-advanced aliens screwing around with us (“any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”). But – if there’s a God who’s omniscient & omnipowerful, then that God knows exactly what it’d take to convince me.

Responding to your response to Liz – we don’t know that we lack blind spots. It’s just eternal vigilance, trying every day to believe more true things and less false things. Yeah, if we were to have a conversation one day about exactly what claims you believe and why you believe them, it might be that I think you had some blind spots, or it might be that I just disagree with your reasoning. And I’ve still got blind spots and bad reasoning in areas, maybe even in the sphere of religion.

Liz,

Ex-Pentecostal high five!!

Muff Potter,

I share your frustration, and agree that students should be allowed to have their Bible study on the same terms as other student-led groups. Such groups do exist and thrive.

It doesn’t stop there, though. Remember the story about the football team getting baptized in a horse trough at the high school field? I’ve been involved enough in youth/school sports to wonder how many of those kids thought they needed the baptism to get playing time that might lead to a college scholarship. Or maybe they just thought they would get a new helmet instead of an old cracked one in the wrong size.

Richard: In general, people aren’t good at critical thinking, unless they put a lot of work into it (even aside from whether they’re religious or not). And I suggest that being imbued in religious belief hurts critical thinking faculties, rather than helps them. At the very root, religious belief requires people to accept things for which there’s little to know evidence – and what evidence there is, is of poor quality.

Personally, I think that a lot of this comes down to the inability to see the difference between knowing and believing. There are things which cannot be known in this world, because there is either not enough or there is no evidence -not for one way or for the other. I see the same mistake made on both sides of the fence; people who are much more “sure” than the evidence warrants. I could make the argument that agnosticism is really the only intellectually honest position.

I’ve heard sermons that were faulty in that they instructed Christians to see themselves as “knowing” beyond a shadow of doubt, as opposed to believing. I’ve had the argument with a Christian friend where we kept going back and forth “I know it’s true” “no, you *believe* it’s true, there is a difference.” My friend felt that this belittled her faith. I feel it is an issue of honesty and self-awareness. It is not wrong to say we believe, that is what faith is. According to the faith, someday we will know as we are known. Meanwhile, we believe.

Humility is the awareness that one could be wrong. And this applies to all, whichever side of this issue they find themselves convinced of.

However, I take your point; there are many who overestimate the capacity of their own minds.

SiteSeer: Personally, I think that a lot of this comes down to the inability to see the difference between knowing and believing.

The topic of “knowing” can really mess with your mind. Try a Google search on “how can we know that we know?”

SiteSeer: is this what Mark Noll meant by the scandal of the evangelical mind?

The only specific quotation I can recall from that book (read it over 20 years ago, IIRC), was along the lines of “the scandal is that there is no Evangelical mind”. He went on to clarify that by this he meant that there is no characteristic way of thinking that could be called “Evangelical”. IIRC, the Evangelical movement is (was), in Noll’s assessment, a grab-bag, eclectic, not founded on discernible principles, not in the way that one could legitimately speak of, for example, a “Reformed” mind or mindset.

My private observation is that one can identify “features” common to Evangelicals. One is a strong aversion to uncertainty (and consequently a desire for “answers”); this is most obviously seen in the pre-occupation with “knowing” that one is “saved” (in the sense of “not destined for post-mortem punishments”). The strong subjective imperative of “knowing” this beyond any shadow of doubt might be a useful interpretive perspective on other aspects of having exceedingly strong opinions on other subjects, opinions that are resistant or even immune to perturbation by evidence.

Samuel Conner: My private observation is that one can identify “features” common to Evangelicals. One is a strong aversion to uncertainty (and consequently a desire for “answers”); this is most obviously seen in the pre-occupation with “knowing” that one is “saved” (in the sense of “not destined for post-mortem punishments”).

Several years ago, I was in conversation with someone I knew over “Ark-ology”, the Christianese Fringe Archaeology centering around The Search for Noah’s Ark. His explanation was “They’re looking for Undeniable Hard Evidence that The Bible Is True. Something they can wave around, rub in our faces, and say ‘SEE? SEE? SEE? IT’S ALL TRUE! WE’RE RIGHT! YOU’RE ALL WRONG!’.”

And I have seen (and read) Wish-Fulfillment Christian attempts at SF where such Absolute Proof has come from finding Genesis 1 encrypted in the human genome to an aside about how Evolution was Conclusively Disproved sometime in the (story’s) past. (They read like bad wish-fulfillment fanfic.)

Headless Unicorn Guy: finding Genesis 1 encrypted

perhaps this is a sub-genre of apologetical writing or aspiration. IIRC in Fred Heeren’s “Show Me God” (at least in the then edition that I read back in ’90s), the Hebrew OT was encoded in the Cosmic Microwave background (in PAL video format :P, perhaps to be more accessible to a greater portion of humanity).

Richard: I don’t really find absolute certainty in *anything*

The funny thing about skepticism is one can only take it so far before it doubles back toward certainty. In other words, one cannot know with certainty that their skepticism is true because they have to be skeptical even of their own skepticism.

Thought experiment: if there is a God and if this God left undeniable evidence for his existence, evidence that could not in any way be disproven by any means, could there be such a thing as free will?

Ken F (aka Tweed): SiteSeer: Personally, I think that a lot of this comes down to the inability to see the difference between knowing and believing.

The topic of “knowing” can really mess with your mind. Try a Google search on “how can we know that we know?”

The Ressegue Regression, a somewhat-underhanded Infinite Regression method of Witnessing I encountered in my college days in the Late Seventies:

It starts with the Witness asking “Do You KNOW You’re Saved?” (alternate opening “Where YOU Would Spend ETERNITY?” – The Witness the tactic is named after actually did speak in ALL CAPS).
Victim gives Reason A.
Witness fires back “But Do You KNOW [Reason A]?????”
Victim gives Reason B for Reason A.
Witness fires back “BUT DO YOU KNOW [Reason B]?????”
Victim gives Reason C for Reason B for Reason A (you can guess where this is going).
Witness fires back “BUT DO YOU KNOW [Reason C]?????”
This continues in an Infinite Regression until the Victim is worn down or runs dry.
Witness triumphantly announces “YOU WERE NEVER REALLY SAVED, WEREN’T YOU?????” takes out his Bible, and starts preaching The Plan of Salvation ending with The Altar Call Invitation.

I became a notch on half a dozen Bibles that way. It always struck me as seriously sleazy, bullying the victim until he breaks down in surrender. And it was used on other Christians who the Witness saw as Apostates, Backsliders, and False Christians.

Ken F (aka Tweed): If you want more COVID conspiracies check out the comments in Wade Burleson’s recent posts.

I did.
Woo.
Though a lot of them are variations on what I’ve heard.
There doesn’t seem to be much variety in Conspiracy Crackhead thinking.

I’d like to see Conspiracy Crackheads do something original once in a while. like…
Deros shining their Telaug Rays up from inside the Hollow Earth!!! (Shaver Mystery, 1947)
Shapeshifting alien cannibal lizards from the planet Draco controlling EVERYTHING!!! (David Icke, contemporary)
Communist Gangster Computer God on the Dark Side of the Moon Puppeting Parrot Gangster Assasing through Frankenstein Earphone Radio Controls!!! (Francis E Dec, Esq, the Eighties)

Samuel Conner: My private observation is that one can identify “features” common to Evangelicals. One is a strong aversion to uncertainty (and consequently a desire for “answers”); this is most obviously seen in the pre-occupation with “knowing” that one is “saved” (in the sense of “not destined for post-mortem punishments”).

Several years ago, I was in conversation with someone I knew over “Ark-ology”, the Christianese Fringe Archaeology centering around The Search for Noah’s Ark. His explanation was “They’re looking for Undeniable Hard Evidence that The Bible Is True. Something they can wave around, rub in our faces, and say ‘SEE? SEE? SEE? IT’S ALL TRUE! WE’RE RIGHT! YOU’RE ALL WRONG!’.”

And I have seen (and read) Wish-Fulfillment Christian attempts at SF where such Absolute Proof has come from finding Genesis 1 encrypted in the human genome to an aside about how Evolution was Conclusively Disproved sometime in the (story’s) past. (They read like bad wish-fulfillment fanfic.)

elastigirl: has the ‘whole world’ ever been unified and pulling together like this before?

and has the ‘whole world’ ever experienced the same social phenomenon all at the same time before?

And you know what anything “One World” or “Global” means in Christianese…

Headless Unicorn Guy: I’d like to see Conspiracy Crackheads do something original once in a while.

A good conspiracy theory has to be believable. Here is potential conspiracy theory: after a hypothetical pandemic shuts down the economy, there is a huge push to get people back to work. But that cannot happen without knowing who is immune. So there comes a big push for immunity testing. No one can buy or sell anything, or even be out it public, without proof of immunity. To make it easy to identify people, those who test positive for immunity are tatooed on their hand or forehead because it’s the best way to mark people and not have to worry about them losing their immunity documentation. Purely hypothetical, of course.

Ken F (aka Tweed),

I hold Wade in high regard but got concerned about a post called “The Keys of Life and Death Are Not Held by Science:”

“In ancient times, mankind never presumed the power of life and death.

“But Jesus said…
‘I hold the keys of death and the grave’ (Revelation 1:18)”

It’s not black and white. Ancient people had the good sense to flee danger. Modern people know that everyone dies. So if people are responding to Wade with anti-science woo, it’s because of the title and some of the content.

In 1920, Americans lived an average of 54 years. In 2019, Americans lived an average of 78+ years.

If Jesus added 24 years to the average American life, it was by inspiring people of compassion and skill to install indoor plumbing and develop more effective medical treatment. Compulsory education probably played a role too.

https://www.wadeburleson.org/2020/03/the-keys-of-life-and-death-are-not-held.html

Ken F (aka Tweed): Purely hypothetical, of course.

But Very Christianese.
Remember my time in-country WAS in a Rapture Ready End-of-the-World Not-a-CULT.
(Rapture Ready as in “any minute now… any minute now… any minute now…”)

(Anyone remember the IBM 3666 point-of-sale system whose barcode scanner would scan The Mark on your forehead or right hand? Or Benjamin Crimm, herald for a coming “Lord Matriyah”?)

Headless Unicorn Guy: Puppeting Parrot Gangster Assasing through Frankenstein Earphone Radio Controls!!!

That’s Steen! Steen! ,, Franken-Steen!

elastigirl: yes, we’re all going a little loopy.

The kids and I were all crabbing at each other this afternoon. Finally pulled out the bubble machine my mom had dropped off a couple weeks ago, and we all headed to the backyard.

Watching the two-year-old run through a cloud of bubbles, arms outstretched, was pure joy. It was just what we all needed.

I think we should all start stocking up on bubbles, not toilet paper.

So much for pizzagate being “debunked”. Just another conspiracy theory. Awake o sleeper.

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=MY8Nfzcn1qQ

Ken F (aka Tweed): The funny thing about skepticism is one can only take it so far before it doubles back toward certainty. In other words, one cannot know with certainty that their skepticism is true because they have to be skeptical even of their own skepticism.

Thought experiment: if there is a God and if this God left undeniable evidence for his existence, evidence that could not in any way be disproven by any means, could there be such a thing as free will?

I’m not sure how one’s skepticism doubles back on itself. To me, scientific skepticism is a means, not an end – it’s a way to approach epistemology. It’s not blanket cynicism. If someone comes to me with a mundane claim like, “I’ve got a dog at home.”, I’ll provisionally accept that in the absence of clear contravening evidence. If they say that they’ve got a dragon at home, I’m gonna require some evidence of that before I accept it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Here’s the gist of what skepticism is: “A skeptic is one who prefers beliefs and conclusions that are reliable and valid to ones that are comforting or convenient, and therefore rigorously and openly applies the methods of science and reason to all empirical claims, especially their own. A skeptic provisionally proportions acceptance of any claim to valid logic and a fair and thorough assessment of available evidence, and studies the pitfalls of human reason and the mechanisms of deception so as to avoid being deceived by others or themselves. Skepticism values method over any particular conclusion.”

As for the thing about whether, if God had left undeniable evidence of his existence, could we have free will? My response: If we *knew* that a God existed, it’s a further step to believe that this God is worthy of our worship or worthy of obeying his desires. Maybe there is a God, but it turns out that he’s just a massive jerk – he could squash any of us like a bug, torture us for eternity, whatever – but none of that would make him worthy of worship. And also, this line of questioning would seem to have trouble with the folks in the Bible who met God, like Moses, Adam & Eve, Paul, etc etc – did all of those folks lose their free will because they met God?

Jeffrey Chalmers: I am reminded of an account of, I think it was a Vacation Bible School, where “Christians” were but on one side of a stage and “ Scientists” on the other…. imply we are “against” “Christians”…

As a retired environmental scientist, I knew numerous Scientist-Christians in my long career … they were both real-deal scientists and real-deal believers!

Consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

Regarding Vacation Bible School, be careful little ears what you hear.

Wild Honey: The kids and I were all crabbing at each other this afternoon. Finally pulled out the bubble machine

We did the same thing with one of our grandsons! After a backyard Easter egg hunt, we turned the little guy loose with a bubble-lawn-mower. We laughed and laughed, no crabbing at each other during that precious moment. We played and played; even found a morel mushroom, a worm, and a walking stick just his size.

Wild Honey: I think we should all start stocking up on bubbles, not toilet paper.

It would be prudent to do both 🙂

Richard: this line of questioning would seem to have trouble with the folks in the Bible who met God, like Moses, Adam & Eve, Paul, etc etc – did all of those folks lose their free will because they met God?

They certainly lost their freedom to doubt. If there were no possibility to doubt God’s existence, what impact would that have on all our other choices?

dee,

Thank you, Dee. Sending you a virtual chocolate bunny named Skeptic.

Wild Honey,

“Watching the two-year-old run through a cloud of bubbles, arms outstretched, was pure joy.”
+++++++++++++

…running through a cloud of bubbles with arms outstretched…

maybe this will do it for me.

why not? who’s with me, here?

Friend: You do realize that some poor shlub believed enough in Pizzagate to fire shots inside a children’s restaurant, right?

Are you referring to Comet Ping Pong in DC?
Or was there another similar shots fired incident?
According to Eagle (who lives in the vicinity), Comet Ping Pong is a popular local pizza joint, not necessarily a “children’s restaurant”. Could you be confusing Comet Ping Pong with Chucky Cheese?

Wild Honey: The kids and I were all crabbing at each other this afternoon. Finally pulled out the bubble machine my mom had dropped off a couple weeks ago, and we all headed to the backyard.

Cue Lawrence Welk Orchestra…

P.S. The Original Lawrence Welk Bubble Machine is on display in the lobby of the William Penn Hotel in downtown Pittsburgh, in a case (with other hotel-related historical curiosities) between the registration desk and the main elevators.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Are you referring to Comet Ping Pong in DC?
Or was there another similar shots fired incident?

Thanks for asking. I was trying to omit the name of Comet Ping Pong, which continues to suffer harassment and experienced an arson attempt last year. But accuracy is important, and our now-moderated commenter did mention Pizzagate.

Comet Ping Pong is a popular spot for children’s parties. The heavily armed man entered the restaurant on a Sunday afternoon in early December 2016. So it’s more accurate to call it a family restaurant, but yes, Comet Ping Pong. 🙁

Ken F (aka Tweed),

I generally try not to play semantic games, that’s why I try to explain what I mean when I say something. If two people are having a conversation but they’re using different definitions of the words, they’re not going to make too much progress. So, when I talk about skepticism it’s generally along the lines of the ‘skeptical movement’ or critical thinking movement, often aligned with the secularists/new atheists/whatever you want to call them. A lot of the skeptical movement has been in response to various supernatural claims, or other claims that run along the same lines – faith healing, bigfoot, alien visitation, alternative medicine, psychics & mediums, creationism, even stuff like multi-level marketing. We don’t claim certainty, we just do our best, knowing that we as humans are subject to using logical fallacies – so we try to be aware of that and use science the best we can because science delivers the goods. If someone has specific instances of where the skeptics and/or scientists have got something wrong, they should address that issue specifically.

Iowa Steve,

“Give the weed back to him. Discuss some easy to follow rules concerning use and then forget about it”
+++++++++++

one of my maxims is ‘moderation in all things’. my kids will probably put this on my tombstone or (compartment placque).

(either that or “let’s make our own!” — my stock answer to their requests to buy this, that, or the other silly & pricey thing)

i have my doubts he would follow any sensible rules. i suspect he’s using often enough it’s becoming a crutch of sorts.

i want to create some boundaries. some accountability. which requires a standard that can be monitored.

of course my preference is zilch. but if he’s going to use it regardless…. dole out very small amounts,….

good grief, if my mom and grandparents could see all this…

(i think they’re watching from the beyond — i imagine they’re more sanguine about it than i am.)

elastigirl,

I’m assuming a double whammy: college emptied out because of corona, and home is way different because of corona. He’s a legal adult, maybe thinking “if I were at college, I could do what I want.”

Appeal to the adult in him, while helping him contain his topsy-turvy emotions. Try to respect his space and experience. Help him figure out what constitutes a productive day. Find out how he wants to show love right now.

Our neighborhood has “kids” in their late 20s back home with Mom & Dad and playing goofy golf in the driveway. Charming, yes, but that’s regression too.

Young adults might smile, but in many the distress runs deep and will last. Some are terrified that their parents will die of corona before they learn how to sign a lease and get the tires rotated.

A dear friend teaches undergraduates, all now back home and doing Zoom college. The kids are suffering, and the college counselors are buckling under the load. That college expects many returning students to skip a semester, and freshmen to defer fall admission. Distance learning might continue in fall, since some locales expect corona to peak in mid summer.

We have all “lost privileges.” I try to do something kind every day for the youngs, whether it’s baking cookies or texting some praise.

I keep watching this lovely video of a teen singing about this predicament. Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XM5hc5eJyI&list=RD_XM5hc5eJyI&index=1

Jeffrey Chalmers: I am reminded of an account of, I think it was a Vacation Bible School, where “Christians” were but on one side of a stage and “ Scientists” on the other…. imply we are “against” “Christians”…

THAT is just asking for “Holy Nincompoop Syndrome”, where the more stupid and ignorant you are, the more Godly you must be. You can see the pitfalls in that.

readingalong,

Perfectly reasonable and workable for many. Complicated right now because the choice of either obeying or moving out does not exist for most college students. It’s not a good time for them to get a pizza delivery job and move into an apartment with a bunch of randos.

readingalong,

What lesson did your son and the other roommates come away with? Most young adults would see that as a cautionary tale and limit their own behavior.

Muff Potter: That’s Steen! Steen! ,, Franken-Steen!

“BLUCHER!”

Headless Unicorn Guy: The anthem of “didn’t want to get involved” — Phil Ochs’ “Small Circle of Friends”:

Devastating song. Friends with compassion can make the difference. I’m thankful that (properly spaced) outdoor exercise is still permitted here. I think that biking with friends is helping a lot of children and adults avoid despair.

We all need a ton of extra compassion.

elastigirl: i have my doubts he would follow any sensible rules. i suspect he’s using often enough it’s becoming a crutch of sorts.

I’m sorry. Praying that you’d find the right words for this situation.

Wild Honey,

Thank you, Wild Honey.

He’s in this weird in-between… he’s still a teen-ager, yet also a legal adult and darn proud of it. he had a lot of independence this year and made us so proud with being responsible with his life — academic priorities, earning $, budgeting his $, buying groceries, cooking, being adult-like. (i wouldn’t call his weed activity irresponsible, but it’s unwise on multiple levels).

things seemed very above-board today (and it passed the sniff test). Should the sniff test fail in the coming days, yes, we’ll need wisdom. Reminding him that he will underperform — that one seemed to get through to him in our last discussion. that’s the last thing he wants.

A conversation with an uncle could also be helpful.

Re the weed issue: having lived in CO in a town where the stench was prevalent everywhere you went, I would absolutely ban it in my home. A grown offspring, should one need to isolate with us, would have to accept a no weed on my property, no tobacco products on my property, for that matter no smelly perfumes or highly perfumed detergents such as gain, no febreeze, etc. Some of us have health issues that just cannot tolerate the smells or the chemical output. Harsh to say, but if you cannot do what is best for the health of your forced roomies you are free to shelter “elsewhere.”

Realistically, parents are often making huge sacrifices to let those college kids and out of work young adults shelter with them during this covid thing. It is not unreasonable at all to expect a bit of sacrifice back.

Neither is it unreasonable to expect those unemployed to pick up some extra chores, or to expect those without underlying health conditions to take one of those albeit temp jobs with instacart or Walmart or the pizza joints or whoever else is begging for help in your particular area. We have nurses laid off from the local hospital due to routine procedures being dropped for now. Many of those are working grocery stores, etc.

In short, this isn’t normal times. Normal times might mean working out old issues, dealing with the individuating that can bring on “you don’t get to boss me I am an adult”, and the young’uns insisting on their “rights.” But truth is, mom and dad are likely stretched pretty thin right now, struggles of their own. It is not unreasonable for them to say “If this is going to work, much as you do not like our house rules and indeed in normal times would set your own, this is how it is going to be on our property for right now.”

Remember WW2? Teens did not like rationing then but had to deal with it anyway. Those that were drafted did not all like military life but had to deal with it anyway. In any household, someone(s) are ultimately responsible to pay the bills, buy the food, and institute the rules that make life the most pleasant it can be for all concerned, not just for one.

So when the parents and the older offspring alike are having to deal with the world situation forcing the offspring to return home, it is reasonable to expect them to fit in with what the householders want. And of course, if covid has sent nana and pawpaw to live with the young adults, nana and pawpaw need to fit in with THEIR ways, not insist on their own.

Common courtesy instead of stiff necked rebellion goes a long way!

elastigirl: responsible with his life — academic priorities, earning $, budgeting his $, buying groceries, cooking, being adult-like.

That’s your big clue right there. He’s matured outside your daily gaze.

linda,

Great comment!
See? Even a liberal apostate (Potter) and a Biblical conservative can have common ground.

Wild Honey: When you grew up listening to Focus on the Family, it’s going to be very hard to weed out the bad from the good.

In retrospect, “Strong Willed Child” was written from a view of parent-child relationships as Power Struggle, if not ONLY Power Struggle. The Strong Willed Child must be Broken to the Godly Parent’s Will. Elevated to Cosmic Importance by God-Talk, the Child’s Salvation, and the Sin of Rebellion.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

And don’t forget ‘the sin of witchcraft’.

elastigirl: He’s in this weird in-between… he’s still a teen-ager, yet also a legal adult and darn proud of it.

But unless he’s 21, drinking and cannabis products are still illegal for him in CA. Beyond that, there are still your house rules (whatever they are) no matter the age.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I completely agree.

I wonder if there is a fundamental lack of respect for children as image-bearers of God in some of the more authoritarian parenting theories, as well. Once you (generic you) consider that they have different needs than yourself and totally logical (if extreme, they are kids, after all) emotional responses, there’s just a mental shift that totally affects the parenting attitude and responses.

I wonder if this is a similar dilemma in complementarianism, how some marriages are “complementarian” and relatively healthy, while others are “complementariam” and abusive. The same set of beliefs has very different “fruit” based on the heart of the individual holding those beliefs.

elastigirl,

I remember coming home that first summer after a year away at college was a big struggle for both my mom and I, just leaning new boundaries and re-defining the relationship. It didn’t help that I had a boyfriend she didn’t like. (She turned out to be right, naturally 🙂 )

Part of what you both are experiencing may be a normal parent/child developmental milestone, but under much more stressful conditions (thank you, COVID quarantine) than typical.

I mean this to be encouraging, if that’s not coming across clearly…

Ken F (aka Tweed): Thanks for clarifying. It helps me to understand where you are coming from. When you say science delivers the goods, what do you mean by that? What are the goods science delievers and what are the goods it doesn’t?

I view science as a great tool, but limited by what it can do. For example, science cannot prove that a particular historical person lived at a particular time because that is outside of the scope of what science can do. However, it can be used to help evaluate evidence such as DNA samples. But ultimately, the proof of a person’s historical presence relies on the tools of history rather than the tools of science. But just because science cannot be used to prove Abraham Lincoln lived, it would be silly to assume he did not based on science alone.

What other tools do skeptics use other than science? Also, what scientific tools would a skeptic use to prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being?

When we say something like, ‘Science delivers the goods’, we’re referring to the fact that science gets results. It’s how we have things like satellites, computers, trips to the moon, modern medicine, etc. We don’t (in my opinion) see that from religion (or any number of other traditions). If anything, after a discovery is made by scientists, you’ll see a post-hoc rationalization that if you read [insert holy book here] in this *very specific way*, then you can see that the holy book actually predicted this discovery (this is very popular in Islam, from discussions I’ve heard). Science isn’t everything, it doesn’t tell us what to value or how to treat each other – but it can inform us about the world around us, which helps us to make better choices.

Regarding history, I think that there’s a lot in common between doing good history and doing good science. Stuff like rigor, predictions, inference, re-evaluation in light of new evidence, critical thinking in general. And sometimes, in history as in the physical sciences, one might have to accept that “I don’t know” is the answer for now. And in all of this, history, science, whatever, you’re hopefully trying to remain conscious of the mistakes that people make in reasoning and the ways that people can be deceived.

Regarding tools that skeptics use – see above – critical thinking and knowing how people can be fooled is *huge*. As I mentioned in my original post, magicians (such as James Randi) were at the center of the skeptical movement (especially in the early days), largely because they’re experts in knowing how people can be fooled. So when Randi set up his Million Dollar Challenge (wherein people could win $1,000,000 if they demonstrated paranormal or supernatural phenomena), he could make sure to watch out for trickery by the claimants.

I don’t know how one could prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being, or whether a particular effect comes from a supernatural source. The only thing we can do is test is whether a specific claim is consistent with reality (ie true) or not (like, “I can pray over amputees, and their severed stumps will grow back”)- we can’t go beyond that and know whether the effect might be from beyond the natural world (I think this would be called “methodological naturalism”). And, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim – you can’t just say, “You can’t prove it’s impossible, so therefore it’s reasonable to believe.” Bertrand Russell came up with a nice illustration that’s gotten quite popular,
“If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

Richard: If anything, after a discovery is made by scientists, you’ll see a post-hoc rationalization that if you read [insert holy book here] in this *very specific way*, then you can see that the holy book actually predicted this discovery (this is very popular in Islam, from discussions I’ve heard).

So Christians are not the only ones to pull that stunt.

Wild Honey: Dr. Dobson in the “Strong Willed Child” book

Dobson huh?
Yes Muff, the very same, the godly man who beat a little dog with a belt ‘to show her who’s boss’.

Richard: I don’t know how one could prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being, or whether a particular effect comes from a supernatural source.

I am glad you acknowledged this because I have seen too many anti-religious people who have tried to claim science has disproven the supernatual. Likewise I have seen too many religious people who have tried to claim the opposite, that science has indeed proven the supernatural. But you and I both know that science cannot make any truth claims about the supernatural because it only deals with the natural, by definition.

I do not like it when religious people use the “God of the gaps” argument. Likewise, I don’t like it when anti-religious people use a “science of the gaps” argument. One example is the origins of life issue. In spite all of the effort that has gone into this field, the scientific challenges are not getting any easier to solve. Yet many continue to believe that there absolutely must be a purely natural explanation even when the problem is getting harder to solve rather than easier. Another one is the exquisite fine-tuning of the universe that has no scientifically verifiable explanation and likely will never have one.

If in fact there is actually an intelligent creator of the universe, it would be unreasonable to act contrary to that truth. Likewise if there is no creator. This question cannot be answered by science, but science can help us analyze the forensic evidence that is available and is continuing to pour in. It can help us evaluate whether the evidence points toward or away from an intelligent creator.

One group that tries to do this is http://www.reasons.org. I don’t agree with all of their approaches and conclusions, but I do think they are making a good faith effort to integrate faith and science without doing violence to either. The fact that they get slammed by people on both sides could be an indication that they are not too far off track.

Ken F (aka Tweed): One example is the origins of life issue. In spite all of the effort that has gone into this field, the scientific challenges are not getting any easier to solve.

Not true, science is getting incrementally closer to solving the origin of life question.

Muff Potter: Wild Honey: Dr. Dobson in the “Strong Willed Child” book

Dobson huh?
Yes Muff, the very same, the godly man who beat a little dog with a belt ‘to show her who’s boss’.

Like I said above, the vibe I get (from as far back as “The Strong Willed Child”) is Dobson views everything in terms of Power Struggle, Dominance or Submission.

Iowa Steve: Not true, science is getting incrementally closer to solving the origin of life question.

Yes and no. Yes, they are getting closer to knowing how it could be done, but they are getting no closer to knowing how it could be done naturally. They are finding things that work great in a lab, but are failing to identity how those carefully controlled processes could be accomplished in a natural environment. Natural environments appear way too harsh to support naturalistic explanations. This is not to say one will never be found, but the problem is not getting easier.

“The True Believer” by Eric Hoffer is a thought provoking book covers a lot of what the com mentors are writing about. Read it if you haven’t or re read it if you have. I reference my copy often

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Seems to me like you’ve just replaced one conspiracy theory with another, this line is very telling as it is a common attribute of many conspiracy theories, that is the dubiousness of the purported goal of the theory:

“Not sure what the goal is other than general chaos and confusion.”

Frankly the notion that Puppetmaster Putin is controlling a vast army of bots to sow disinformation has all the hallmarks of a good conspiracy, a sci-fi element, a malevolent arch-enemy, the interwebs and a huge expenditure in money and effort towards a confusing goal.

NC Now:
Why do people hang tough on conspiracy theories in the face of facts?

Because it means admitting they were suckered. And that is hard for any of us.

The formal name for this is “Sunk Cost Fallacy”.

The key to a successful swindle is to get the suckers so emotionally (as well as financially) involved that they get in too deep to ever back out. Because that would mean they’d have to admit to themselves (and others) that they got suckered. Instead, they will double down and fanatically defend the con man and the swindle.

Headless Unicorn Guy: So that makes me part of The Vast Conspiracy?

If so, count me in. I do believe that today’s Russia is a bigger threat to the USA than the USSR was.

I don’t know if this falls in the category of conspiracy, but this ad showed up in my FB feed today (FB is probably hearing me talk about the wrong things):
https://cr.patheos.com/path-emailtemp-signup
“Fill out the form to receive five cut-and-paste email templates written from a pastoral point-of-view. These emails will encourage your congregation to step up and grow in their faith.”

Yeah, that’s juat the thing that would do it for me…

P.S. My comment is #300! Woohoo!!

Ken F (aka Tweed):
I don’t know if this falls in the category of conspiracy, but this ad showed up in my FB feed today (FB is probably hearing me talk about the wrong things):
https://cr.patheos.com/path-emailtemp-signup
“Fill out the form to receive five cut-and-paste email templates written from a pastoral point-of-view. These emails will encourage your congregation to step up and grow in their faith.”

Yeah, that’s juat the thing that would do it for me…

Afraid to click, but that sounds like Mad Libs.

(Uh, referring to the fill-in-the-blank books of yore, not hippies with ‘sploding heads…)

Serving Kids in Japan,

This does make sense, and I can see that line of thinking particularly when people talk about children’s “sin nature” to the complete exclusion of their “image-bearer of God” status.

Personally speaking, I will accept that infants are self-centered. But I think this is a survival mechanism, NOT sin. They cannot feed or care for themselves, so the only way they have to communicate these needs is crying. And if you accept the scriptures that talk about God forming a child in a mother’s womb, I would think the logical conclusion is GOD MADE THEM THAT WAY. If so, you can hardly take it out on the child. Then you balance this with the scriptures where Jesus says that one should have faith like a child…

So, yeah, I think authoritarian parenting supporters are cherry-picking their verses. And just not using simple observation skills to see that children hardly come out of the womb as blank slates. Even pregnant I could tell that my two kids were going to have vastly different personalities, and I’m not always the brightest crayon in the box.

Wild Honey: This does make sense, and I can see that line of thinking particularly when people talk about children’s “sin nature” to the complete exclusion of their “image-bearer of God” status.

“Man sees a cute little baby — GOD SEES AN UTTERLY DEPRAVED SINNER!”
— some radio preacher from the Seventies

During my time in-country, I listened to a lot of Christianese AM radio, from the silly to the scary. This is all I remember from one preacher that stuck in my mind. Guy had a regional accent similar to J Vernon Magee, but was definitely NOT him. Magee didn’t do in-your-face screaming.

Oddly, I remember encountering the same voice and delivery at a Boy Scout summer camp in the late Sixties. Church service at the summer camp had a preacher with the same voice and delivery; could have been the same guy. I remember because his sermon seemed obsessed with Christ’s resurrected body being “FLESH AND BONE – NOT FLESH AND BLOOD!”

Serving Kids In Japan:
*sigh*

I remember Mike Warnke.My ISCF (Inter-School Christian Fellowship) group in high school listened to some of his comedy routines on tape.Can’t deny — he was quite the skilled raconteur.He knew how to tell a story, and make it really funny.Even now, and knowing what I know, I can’t help but smile remembering bits like “Buck the Angel”.

Which made it all the more heartbreaking to learn he was a liar and huckster.

And his exposure as a complete fraud didn’t put a dent in his fanboys.

Several years later, my writing partner (the burned-out preacher) had a neighboring church (NOT his) host Mike Warnke as a guest preacher (paying his speaking fee!), KNOWING he was a fraud! Reason given was “Many Souls Will Be Saved!” (My writing partner didn’t have anything to do with that church or preacher after that.)

NC Now: As she put it there has never been a toddler in the history of the planet who replied to their parent “You know, you have a point. I’ll think about that and work on my behavior.” (Not an exact quote but close enough.)

This also holds for those toddlers walking around in allegedly-adult bodies.

Richard: So, if said deity created the problem, then it’s their problem to solve, not mine.

Can you give an example of the type of evidence that would convince you God exists? In other words, “I would immediately and unquestionably believe in God if he ______.”

Richard:
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I don’t know, that was what I was saying in my prior post. But if there’s a God (as generally defined by theists) then I’m sure he/it knows what would be convincing.

Why would God force you to believe something you really don’t want to believe? Alternatively, what if he is showing you evidence but you refuse to see it as evidence? Do you want a God who would overwhelm you with evidence?

Even though Calvinists argue that our wills are in bondage, the early church nearly unanimously affirmed free will. If it is true that we have free will, it must necessarily mean that God will not give us evidence that would override our free will. It appears to me that he left a balance where both theism and atheism require faith.

Richard: Just noticed your reply today.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Your reply raised a few new questions for me, though.

The way I figure, the God that’s claimed by most theists is all-knowing, and I don’t *nearly* claim to be all-knowing.

Granted. But even assuming that God can read your mind, that wouldn’t tell him what would convince you, since you admit not knowing that yourself. If that information isn’t in your own mind and heart, where could even an all-knowing God find it?

I think it’d be perverse for him to give us critical reasoning, want us to use that critical reasoning in discovering truths about the world around us – but then *abstain* from using said reasoning when it came to the question of his existence and just believe, because he’s decided to do the whole “divine hiddenness” thing.

I don’t think that God wants us to discard critical thinking when dealing with spiritual realities, or to believe in him without evidence. I think he does want us to accept that the evidence involved will be of a different character, and require a different kind of proof, than in other branches of knowledge. (See below.)

So, if said deity created the problem, then it’s their problem to solve, not mine.

What if God, in his omniscience, perceives that nothing will convince you that he exists? Do you allow that this is a possibility? And if so, do you expect him to try solving a problem that has no solution?

The kind of “experiment” that you depicted in the last half of your reply suggests to me that you conceive God as being like the forces or chemicals that we manipulate in lab experiments. We form a hypothesis, set the parameters, control the variables, and then carry it out. And the chemicals, or lights beams, or pendulums or whatever will behave in whatever way natural laws demand, thus proving our hypothesis or not.

What if God isn’t like those forces or chemicals, which have no choice but to obey the laws of nature? Throughout the Bible, God is depicted as a person, not a force; if that’s accurate then, like all people, he has his own will and purposes. Are you willing to consider that it might take a different kind of “experiment” to determine the existence of a person — and especially, a divine person?