Infrared view of Ursa Major which includes the Big Dipper: NASA
“I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay, small acts of kindness and love.” –J.R.R. Tolkien
I have a different take on this situation which can be found at the end of the post.
The Danny Lavery’s Twitter about his conversation with his father.
Towards the end of last week, I was tagged on thew following tweet by James Lavery who is reportedly estranged from his well-known pastor father, John Ortberg. (I have been given more information on this from a reliable source but have chosen not to disclose it at this time.This is a difficult situation.) His church is Menlo Church and he is the husband of Nancy Ortberg. Here is a copy of what I received.
Needless to say I needed to think about this. This statement was preceded by Lavery saying that this is all that he was going to say on the matter. I checked to see if I could send him a message but he has turned that function off on Twitter.
Religion News Services posted Pastor John Ortberg allowed volunteer who was attracted to minors to work with children which gives some insight into Lavery.
Lavery, who writes the Dear Prudence advice column for Slate.com, said that he suggested that the church member seek treatment and immediately stop volunteering with church. He also said he wrote to Ortberg and urged him to report the situation to the church’s elders. When his father did not do that, Lavery said he and his wife reported their concerns to the church board.
Following that conversation, Ortberg went on leave.
Lavery said that he did not know if the church member had ever acted on their attraction to minors.
RNS also posted this history on the Ortbergs.
Ortberg did not reply to a request for comment. However, after RNS emailed the pastor, a church staffer sent RNS the statement from the elders.
A former teaching pastor at Willow Creek, Ortberg and his wife, Nancy, made headlines in 2018 when they raised questions about the conduct of megachurch pastor Bill Hybels. Ortberg is a popular speaker and author of books like “Soul Keeping,” “The Life You’ve Always Wanted,” and “If You Want to Walk on Water, You’ve Got to Get Out of the Boat.” He also hosts the “What Were You Thinking?” podcast.
RNS also received the following information.
This story has been updated to clarify that the church volunteer no longer works with children and no misconduct was found.
John Ortberg was placed on a leave from the church.
Here is a copy of the letter the church sent to members. I thank the person who sent this to me.
This letter was sent by Beth Seabolt, Elder Board Chair on behalf of the Session.
So, what can we learn from this letter?
I was told by one source that the person in question is a male. However, that has not bee written everywhere and I appreciate the pushback.I am changing the descriptors.
- Ortberg was put on a somewhat voluntary, elder suggested leave of absence in November 22, 2019.
- This happened soon after the *third party* (maybe Lavery) reported this to the elders.
- The elders said they needed to investigate these concerns.
- In 2018, a church member told Ortberg that they had unwanted thought patters (euphemism for: It appears that he has sexual feelings for kids!)
- They claimed they had not acted on these feelings and Ortberg believed him. This is a dangerous assumption. Ortberg has absolutely no idea if this is true. He *felt* it was true.
- Ortberg allowed this person to keep working with kids.
- Ortberg did not tell anyone else at the church about this.
- The elders had an independent investigation and notified their denomination of the situation.
- Apparently, there have been no reports of abuse. (I debated adding the word *yet* to the end of this sentence.)
- Ortberg has apologized (You can see his apology below.)
- Ortberg will return on 2/24/20.
Julie Roys wrote a post on this matter.
Julie Roys wrote Prominent Pastor John Ortberg Disciplined for Failing to Protect Minors From a Volunteer With Attraction to Children
Both Roys and RNS moved quickly on this story. I am grateful to see such great people working on abuse issues.
Ortberg and his wife, Nancy, used to be employed by Willow Creek Community Church, and were one of the first to defend the women who accused former Willow Creek senior pastor, Bill Hybels, of sexual misconduct.
She also pointed out another aspect of Lavery’s narrative that I found most disturbing.
Lavery said that the same day, he and his “wife,” Grace, talked with John Ortberg and expressed “the gravest reservations.” However, Lavery said Ortberg dismissed his concerns, saying that “pedophilia was like homosexuality”; “the most important thing was maintaining secrecy”; and that Lavery and Grace “lacked standing” to offer alternative treatment for sexual obsessions with children because of their recent “transitions.”
Lavery said he asked Ortberg whether this person had ceased traveling overnight with children and Ortberg responded, “I’m not sure.”
Here is a link to the audio that Julie Roys posted on her website. She provided an embed code so this can be shared with others.
Dee’s thoughts on the matter of the dangers of paraphilia
I believe that it is possible that the man/woman with sexual feelings towards children may have gone to Ortberg because he/she was reaching the end of his rope in dealing with his problem. In other words, this may have been a cry for help. I believe that this person knew that he/she was in trouble and that he /she may have already acted on his impulses.
Instead of sending him for intensive help, Ortberg allowed him/her to continue working with children since, in Ortberg’s decidedly limited, uneducated assessment, this man/woman wasn’t harming anyone. He/she was going on overnights with kids from the church, for crying out loud!!!
This man/woman does not spend 24/7 inside the church. It is entirely possible that there were and are situations in the community that the church doesn’t know about.
A paraphilia, like the one this man/woman is experiencing, is a profound psychiatric problem for which one can hope for control with intensive therapy. I said *control* not *cure.* I have written on this subject multiple times.
Here is an overview from Merck Manual.
Paraphilias involve sexual arousal to atypical objects, situations, and/or targets (eg, children, corpses, animals). However, some sexual activities that seem unusual to another person or a health care practitioner do not constitute a paraphilic disorder simply because they are unusual. People may have paraphilic interests but not meet the criteria for a paraphilic disorder.
The unconventional sexual arousal patterns in paraphilias are considered pathologic disorders only when both of the following apply:
-They are intense and persistent.
-They cause significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or they harm or have the potential to harm others (eg, children, nonconsenting adults)People with a paraphilic disorder may have an impaired or a nonexistent capacity for affectionate, reciprocal emotional and sexual intimacy with a consenting partner. Other aspects of personal and emotional adjustment may be impaired as well.
The pattern of disturbed erotic arousal is usually fairly well developed before puberty. At least 3 processes are involved:
Anxiety or early emotional trauma interferes with normal psychosexual development.
The standard pattern of arousal is replaced by another pattern, sometimes through early exposure to highly charged sexual experiences that reinforce the person’s experience of sexual pleasure.The pattern of sexual arousal often acquires symbolic and conditioning elements (eg, a fetish symbolizes the object of arousal but may have been chosen because the fetish was accidentally associated with sexual curiosity, desire, and excitement).
For those of you who are like me and want to read a more in-depth presentation. I suggest NIH materials. This is one I particularly find helpful. Paraphilias: definition, diagnosis and treatmentAt the end of the article is a list of resources that I have used in the past.
Sadly, I believe that it is probable that this man/woman has acted upon his/her feelings. At the minimum, he/she was crying for help. There is a reason that this sort of problem must NEVER be treated secretly.
Luke 8 16-17 NIV
No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
Warning: when dealing with these issues, one can be sure that something’ll happen to bring the secret to light. And when it does, it will be messy and painful. Deal with it upfront, You’ll sleep better.
Where does Lavery say it’s a man?
Absolutely nowhere! I have changed the descriptors/pronouns. Thank you.
Funny story. I have a James Avery charm necklace that my kids gave me. They added charms from James Avery for Christmas/birthdays.
When writing this post, I kept changing the name of Danny Lavery to James Avery because I kept thinking about any necklace. Hopefully, Ive corrected all of my mistakes.
Sam Johanson,
I think part of the problem is due to the fact that far more men than women are pedophiles.”An estimated 80-90% of offenders are male, while 10-20% of offenders are female.”
But you are correct. I shouldn’t have assumed.
https://www.raace.org/statistics-information
Could you please correct this article? There has been no set date for John’s return to the pulpit. He is currently working through his restoration plan with the elders. Danny’s statement said the person was volunteering for overnights with kids at another organization, not the church. Also, while the elder email said that there was an “independent investigation” they did not say who was doing the investigation or its scope.
There’s one still left: “I was tagged on thew following tweet by James Lavery”.
And Daniel Lavery is quite estranged from his father. He wrote this on Thanksgiving last year, and I believe he is referring to talking to his father and his father refusing to do anything and refusing to listen to Daniel because Daniel is transgender:
https://www.shatnerchatner.com/p/finally-taking-my-own-advice-about
Oh, and I am completely not sorry for chewing out Julie Roys on Twitter. She deadnamed Daniel Lavery and referred to Daniel’s wife as “wife,” as if Daniel and Grace aren’t truly married in her eyes. I may not have gotten that bachelor of journalism in 1982, but I did come >this< close and Julie's work is not reflecting journalistic standards and is very judgmental.
Seriously, people, Jesus didn't tell you to treat transgender people as pariahs.
How ironic that Ortberg hosts a podcast called “What Were You Thinking?”
@dee If you have a source at Menlo Church, could you have them contact me please?
As a therapist myself, I find Ortberg’s alleged handling of this matter baffling and disturbing. Especially since he has a Phd in clinical psychology from Fuller.
Any investigation that fails to include staff, volunteers, parents or children is incomplete enough to be reassuring. It sounds remarkably Willow-esque.
Ortberg was mentored by Gil B and worked for Hybels. It should be clear to church world leaders that secrecy is not an honorable strategy. Very eager to hear Jimmy Hinton’s take on this.
“I was tagged on thew following tweet by James Lavery who is reportedly estranged from his well-known pastor father, John Ortberg. (I have been given more information on this from a reliable source but have chosen not to disclose it at this time.This is a difficult situation.)”
+++++++++++++++++
not going into the details was the right thing to do.
on julie roys’ blog, it quickly became the issue in the comments section, completely overshadowing the issue at hand. because the messenger did not fit the mold their very important message got lost. it reflects so poorly on christian people.
(which isn’t to say you weren’t right to respond as you did, muslin)
Ortberg should be sacked on the spot for this. Unbelievable negligence in ignoring high level risk. ‘Overnight travel with children’? It doesn’t even come close to a difficult decision to make.
It will have taken courage for that individual to speak out, & say what they did, & the response in removing them from the presence of children should have been immediate, & the linking them to the proper professional help just as fast.
If one of my team came to me with the same confession you’d better believe we would have listened. The failure to do so is not just a mistake, or oversight, it is a very serious sign that John Ortberg does not have the professional skills needed for his position.
“pedophilia was like homosexuality”
Not. Another know-it-all pastor makes statements like he knows it all. Hubris. Needs to get a grip. On reality.
Part of the problem is the high regard of the enabling society for these old white male pastors, who in some situations just may not know what they are doing.
“Pastor” is a misnomer for folks like this.
John Ortberg comes across as a hypocrite to me. He speaks out against Bill Hybles, but is silent with the person with pedophilia urges.
Second, I wonder if these neocal preachers are so intent on proving a point, they will sacrifice others to do it.
“They claimed they had not acted on these feelings and Ortberg believed him. This is a dangerous assumption. Ortberg has absolutely no idea if this is true. He *felt* it was true.”
The absolute hubris of people like Ortberg thinking they can just tell if someone is dangerous, whether it is to children, or to their spouses or others in the church, is at the root of some of these problems. Men believing in the goodness other men, regardless of evidence or lack thereof.
And i guess, despite this insanely bad judgement and despite the fact that he didn’t warn anyone I guess, we’re already on the ‘restoration’ path. Ugh. What a mess.
Oh man, that’s who this is? I was throw by the last name, as I’ve seen a number of professional things using ortberg. I’ve definitely read his Dear Prudence columns.
On the topic, I do think dee is quite right that this person may have been reaching out but the mere fact that they were *purposefully seeking out children* means they are not managing well and are a danger! This was insanely, dangerously bad judgement.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
If a person looks at the context of Julie’s article, it was to show Mr. Ortberg wouldn’t listen to either Grace’s or Daniel’s advice because of their “transitions”. Mr. Ortberg, because of his pride, used his child’s current state as an excuse not to listen.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Yeah, Julie Roys just couldn’t resist taking some shots at Danny & his wife, and it’s really disappointing. I’m appreciative of some of the work that Roys has done, but every once in a while, why reading her articles, I’d be a little bit appalled by something like this. On the other hand, to some extent I think it comes hand-in-hand with taking the bible very literally and seriously, and as the truth handed down by a deity. I understand that everyone isn’t going to be able to make the jump to atheism like I did – but would it be so hard to realize admit that some of the stuff that the bible teaches are just *bad ideas*?
My God. This guy took a known potential pedophile and intentionally directed him to work unsupervised with children. It doesn’t take extensive training to not do that; it only requires a little common sense and wisdom. What was done is beyond irresponsible and stupid at best, and possibly criminal at worst.
In any context other than the church (e.g. teacher or administrator in a public school) this would have been more than enough to get a person immediately fired and prompted a call to law enforcement to investigate.
But in the church they get to hire their own investigator and the guy is given a couple months forced leave.
And you wonder why people don’t trust the church?
In my locale, the Mexican people have a descriptor for such a one:
~~ Pendejo ~~
I think for a lot of people this is *very* hard. I think the way most people deal with it just say all the worst stuff is in the OT and doesn’t apply anymore but that’s not actually true (hello slavery). It’s complicated. Also interesting because Judaism has for the most part dealt with it all in a very different way.
It is my understanding, and I could very well be wrong, but it appears John Ortberg believes Daniel and Grace Lavery are such terrible, awful sinners for being transgender that ANYTHING they say, even if correct, true and right should be disregarded, because they are terrible, awful sinners and wash, rinse, repeat…
The important things to keep in mind here is that a) a parishioner reached out and told John Ortberg they had sexual desire toward minors; b) Ortberg left this person in a position where they would continue to have access to minors instead of immediately removing them; c) when Ortberg’s son found out, he tried to press his father to do the right things but John refused to listen to Daniel because of Daniel’s transition; and d) It took Daniel going to Menlo Church and pushing them before anything was done. Finally: e) I don’t know what provoked Menlo Church to finally admit that John Ortberg was on leave yesterday (at least it appears that is when the notice was posted). It may have been due to Daniel publicly disclosing on Twitter Sunday that he had let Menlo Church know about his father.
What disturbs me about this is not so much the treatment of Daniel Lavery (although that is very much a problem) but that yet another church organization tried to deep six a serious problem of potential child sexual abuse. Menlo Church should have announced a couple of months ago that Ortberg was on leave, and why. Again, all of this is Just My Personal Opinion.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I didn’t catch the time stamp on all articles and letters. Muslin, thank you.
🙂
Perhaps I missed it, but do you know when the letter was sent to church members?
Ah, I think this is the part I wasn’t catching. The ‘same thing’ business seemed to come out of nowhere a bit, except this crowd often thinks that way – I didn’t connect it. That is bad and I see why it led Daniel to want to cut off his family.
Jean,
The letter was sent on Jan 21. Well before Danny made his statement.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Yes, Menlo announced in December that John was on leave.
Yet again, Pelvic Issues Obsession…
Why do I hear Calvary Chapel Pastor Raul Rees responding to your “common sense and wisdom” with “Show Me SCRIPTURE(TM)!”?
John,
If no crime has been reported yet, how can law enforcement be contacted yet?
The private investigators, did he or she help suppress any evidence of a possible kind?
Good question. But don’t you think the church should have called an expert to design a program for informing parents and potentially interviewing children? If this volunteer had “special” friendships, and spent time overnight with kids, the parents might well know (even if it was at a camp). Victims often start to behave differently, right?
The former volunteer might even be interviewed.
Of course nobody would want to plant false memories. Expertise would be needed.
This.
Sacrifice children. Criminal.
Ava Aaronson,
And do not forget, we pew peons are suppose to sit quietly, and support our “spiritual leaders”…
O/T That guy who was under independent investigation for his preying on teens in the youth group as a youth pastor, has been found with improprieties – far beyond these two incidences:
https://www.theleafchronicle.com/story/news/2020/02/03/church-finds-fault-conduct-pastor-after-investigation-wes-feltner-first-baptist-clarksville-berean/4646488002/
“In a statement released the last weekend of January, church elders stated they believe Feltner is ‘not above reproach’ in the following matters:
“In regard to his secrecy and treatment of these two women during their secretive, simultaneous relationships.”
“In subsequent and recent reporting of these relationships to Berean elders and congregation.”
“In the intentional and significant misuse of his church credit card for personal expenses, discovered in standard employee departure processes.”
“In the absence of remorse or repentance for these issues.”
“The statement went on to say that the elders believe Feltner did not lead his current pastoral team well, as evidenced by:
“His misleading statements regarding his candidacy at another church, while recruiting for his prospective TN team.”
“His absence and unreliability to lead and steward initiatives essential to staff health and our church’s vision.”
“The elders also noted that both in 2002 when the alleged pastoral abuse occurred and currently, Feltner was asked by church leadership and friends to confess and repent, and that he failed to do so.”
– Looks like the trifecta: Power/the Sensual/$$$. Not a pastor. More a predator. Leading a church, no less.
The church supported an independent investigation, and found far more than expected.
Some are quietly leaving, taking their “support” with them. The only way to go when the “leaders” don’t listen anyway.
Correction:
“… far beyond these two predatory clergy power assaults on youth in the youth group”
Note: Overreach with youth in the youth group, overreach with credit card at the parish. Abuse of power. What the enabling supporting congregation doesn’t get when they don’t support the reporting victims of his abuse of power with youth. He goes after the youth, then raids the pocketbook of the church. Doesn’t respect boundaries. No integrity – not a “pastor” but a predator from the get-go.
Assuming that crimes are not suspected…
There is power in quietly walking away. You don’t set yourself up as a target. Nobody can criticize you for causing a scene (even if imagined), or read aloud a letter about your Sins (even if invented).
Instead, a few of the more astute members will ask themselves, “Whatever happened to that nice family?” And perhaps they too will find the exit.
Publishers Weekly describes Lavery’s latest book as “searingly honest passages about his journey as a transgender man”. Based on the Amazon excerpt, the book opens with a take-down of what was at one time, at least, his parents’ premillennial theology.
To me, that’s worth mentioning because the incident with his dad that Lavery tweeted about occurred in November, but Lavery chose to delay tweeting about it until just a few days before his new book launches.
Dee’s post and the comments here resonated with me, with the exception of presumptions about how the Ortbergs have behaved toward their son. We haven’t heard the parents’ side of the estrangement, nor should we.
I think the point we should make here – John Ortberg’s putting children at risk by failing to report what he knew (and Lavery’s righteous position on that issue) – is weakened by idle speculation.
Duh!!! His behavior was sleazy and gross, made worse by using his position. He was obviously not sorry and he lied to everyone about why he got fired. Newsflash these are fireable offenses!!!
but also misusing the credit card seems like an easily proven backup charge, for the people who don’t really care that he was sleazy.
AvaAaronson,
But also this part was interesting:
“They are also offering Feltner discretionary post-resignation compensation and family health benefits, partially offset by some of his credit card misuse. They did add that they plan to show “grace in our handling of his credit card misuse.””
Publishers Weekly is a publishing industry product, intended to sell books, in case folks don’t know. It’s all cheerleading, just with varying degrees of emphasis.
The jump to atheism appears to have been a lateral move. None of the stuff the Lord God who made the entire universe, his Son Jesus who paid the entire price for our sin, or the Holy Spirit who in dwells us and leads us into all truth, teaches are bad ideas. Man’s own interpretation of the words can create bad ideas. Man’s lack of understanding can create a conclusion the Bible teaches bad ideas, to name 2 other possibilities. You will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart.
How else do you bribe Moloch to give you goodies?
(Money, Posiiton, Power, Sex, Spiritual Leadership…)
Richard,
I had a bit of a crisis of faith a couple of decades ago. I spent a very long time exploring the arguments for atheism, other faiths, etc. One thing that I realized that very, very smart people have embraced Christianity. Yes, I know that there are also smart folks in every faith as well as atheism. In the ned, I belle bed that the Bible best described the world I see around me.
Yes, there are difficulties in the Bible. But, once again, there are smart people who have written throughout the ages dealing with them. There are just as many difficulties in atheism. In the end, I believe that God gave mankind free will which means I respect your choice even though I disagree with your conclusion.
As I told my friend, Eric Bonetti, I am grateful that I will have Jesus by my side when I appear in heaven one day since I have lots to be forgiven for.
Lavery apparently alluded to the incident in a Thanksgiving post on his blog.
https://www.shatnerchatner.com/p/finally-taking-my-own-advice-about
Lavery is currently being accused of trying to sell a book, which is being published next week. He’s only discussed the actual incident once on his Twitter (to say exactly what he’d done) and said he wouldn’t talk about it any more. I just checked his Twitter, and while he’s not talking about his father, he is (rightly, IMHO) criticizing the Evangelical Christian press for misgendering him.
John Ortberg’s actions are the story here. Not Daniel Lavery.
Lavery already has a track record as a best-selling author. I don’t think one or two tweets would sell many copies of his new book.
Just a wild guess: the tweets would only create a ruckus among folks who never heard of Lavery, and they are unlikely to buy his third book anyway.
And you are right, Ortberg is the story. It’s just super easy in some circles to discredit Lavery as a messenger.
Friend,
Given Ortberg has “admitted” to the “situation”, Lavery is irrelevant. However, many “Christians” play character attacks (straw men) all the time… it is a primary “weapon” in the “young earth creationism” war…. I have experienced, multiple times
As to Ortberg, that was probably the biggest lapse of judgment I have ever heard of. Nuff said on that.
But a bit of push back on some cyber bullying going on.
There are those (yes I am one) who believe the scripture is the final word on what is and is not sin, and that it is clear that only married heterosexual sex is sanctioned. You may believe differently, but if you want to be heard in the marketplace of ideas name calling those who hold the traditional view won’t get you there.
And for the record, “misgendering” and “treating transgenders like pariahs” is a bit over the top. We lived many years where the local industry was treating these folks psychologically, spiritually, medically, and surgically.
We learned early on most folks do not understand the difference between transsexual, asexual, various maladies involving hormone receptors, and transgender.
There are differences of opinion in the scientific and medical communities regarding the last one. There are those that accept it as an orientation, or a condition. Others find no scientific basis for it and therefore see it as a delusional state. Shoot, we knew folks walking through this malady who were on both sides of that fence. One transgender struggling through that year of living as the gender they felt like as opposed to biology might see themselves as trapped in the wrong body. The next might laugh and ask how different would it be if they thought they were of a different race or age than they biologically are. Openness and honesty required them to face these questions to be absolutely sure of what they were doing before surgery.
Most of their families seemed to be very supportive of those with any sort of biological issue. That is easy to understand. But conversely, most of the transgenders I knew would defend family that rejected the concept if there was no overt biological cause. They respected the right of their parents and siblings, etc, to disagree with them.
It is intensely painful for those who are transgenders. It is also intensely painful for their families to walk through this.
I do not know the Ortberg’s and their offspring. It may be one of those “no biological cause” situations. In that case, and if handled lovingly, one honest option is to let your child know you will always love them but may not always support what they do. If the child chooses to walk away that is their right, devastating though it would be for all concerned. It is easy to blame parents for not “accepting” the child for “who they are.” What is harder to understand is that parents simply may not be able to accept what they believe is living a lie. And it is equally painful when your child cannot accept you for who you are.
Let’s cut them some slack and stop name calling anyone and everyone not woke enough to accept any and all sexual behaviors short of child abuse.
Richard, what would be some examples of the bad ideas in the Bible ?
Maybe the two of you would enjoy a discussion about multiple wives and concubines. 😉
Does this mean no wiggle room and no loopholes?
Not if you value your Salvation.
Especially when it comes to Pelvic Issues.
“BEGONE FROM ME, YE CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE! JOIN THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS!”
— God on The Great White Throne, according to Jack Chick
The threat of Eternal Hell is quite a motivator to shut up and stay in line.
I always welcome true, transparent, reasoned, discussion on all things biblical, even on the things I’m still trying to process, and understand.
Also slavery?
And they (Raul Ries, Greg Laurie, Don Stewart, the list is long…) have the verses to ‘prove it’ too.
Those names are all Blasts from the Past, when I was listening to Christianese AM radio in the Seventies thru mid-Eighties. When there could be NO Salvation outside of Calvary Chapel.
And that’s “PastorRaulReesCalvaryChapelWestCovina” and “PastorGregLaurieVineyard”, all one word.
Incidentally, PastorRaulReesCalvaryChapelCostaMesa’s Anti-Catholicism was literally impossible to exaggerate. The guy actually was that rabid when it came to Apostate Satanic Romish Popery(TM).
And PastorGregLaurieVineyard’s name still shows up on bus/train station posters for some CCM concert/music festival in my area every year.
Lea, Slavery? Sure it’s not off limits at all, as long as the discussion is a sincere, culturally relevant, biblical discussion sure why not.
In my apologetics classes, why a God allows evil is always first, always, even from avowed atheist,
Usually slavery makes the top ten
Lea,
Friend,
linda,
++++++++++++++++
i think what is problematic is turning something descriptive in the bible (norms of time; news; historical narrative; word pictures; metaphors; hyperbole; specific advice to one person about a specific situation; etc) and making it prescriptive.
it seems to me a very reasonable approach to understanding things is to agree with Jesus on what the greatest commandment is, “love your neighbor as yourself”.
(this is the other part of the greatest commandment, of course: “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”;
but i find that one very abstract, and it sure opens up cans of worms that can completely nullify the “love your neighbor as yourself part)
This is a weird qualification to keep making, fyi.
I wasn’t asking if it was ‘off limits’ I was using that as an example of awful stuff from the bible.
Ok, understood where you were coming from
I agree, and what’s more, this whole mindset of ‘prescriptive extraction’ from the Bible in order to advance a particular ideology is no more than 40-45 years old.
elastigirl,
Lea,
Friend,
linda,
“i think what is problematic is turning something descriptive in the bible (norms of time; news; historical narrative; word pictures; metaphors; hyperbole; specific advice to one person about a specific situation; etc) and making it prescriptive.
it seems to me a very reasonable approach to understanding things is to agree with Jesus on what the greatest commandment is, “love your neighbor as yourself”.”
+++++++++++++++
meaning, as one reads the bible and interprets its meaning, there’s a problem if the conclusion amounts to cruelty, inhumane requirements, discrimination, inequality, favoritism, exploitation of power…
christians tend to freak out a little over whether or not they have “the right” interpretation. or else they are all too certain they have the one and only right interpretation.
i think a middle ground is healthy. to hold it all loosely.
god isn’t so mysterious that we can’t understand him/her (i think God is no more male than God is female). we’re made in God’s image, afterall. we share dna, so to speak.
conversely, do we really think we have the god of the universe all figured out? do we really think we could possibly know what God thinks about everything, including complex aspects of very complex issues, as if God is as 1-dimensional & black-&-white as the simple pat answers issued by christian culture?
my view: how could we possibly go wrong with making ‘philadelphia’ our guiding principle in understanding the bible, in applying it, in daily living. and hold the rest loosely.
I agree, but there are certainly many passages that have been, over the years, used to justify cruelty. They are there and they *have* to be dealt with in a way that leads the other way – to love. And maybe we don’t know how to do that always.
Lea,
i suppose my MO is if it’s cruel, i leave it alone.
on the premise that it is totally unreasonable to follow a religion that requires me to lower my standards of integrity, kindness, fairness, honesty.
elastigirl,
Well, people get a little shirty with you sometimes when you tell them maybe they should leave a passage alone. Or maybe it doesn’t mean what they think it does.
You know I agree with you, though.
Lea,
“there are certainly many passages that have been, over the years, used to justify cruelty. They are there and they *have* to be dealt with in a way that leads the other way – to love. And maybe we don’t know how to do that always.”
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my previous comment didn’t address your point, here.
yes, it is difficult to reconcile cruelty with God. cruelty in what was recorded as God’s doings, and what seems to be bible-required cruelty in our doings.
so, to sort out my own thoughts (for my own benefit, and the entertainment of anyone):
-life is too short for cruelty
-there’s not a lot of time for the enormous mental task of seeking to reconcile it all
-i think humans put faith in the bible rather than in God. in so doing, they silence their common sense and replace it with what they find in the bible — which takes quite a bit of faith.
-i don’t think it’s possible to find the answer in the bible for how to reconcile it all
-i don’t think the bible provides answers to kinds of questions, and i don’t think humans were ever meant to use it for that purpose.
-i do think the bible is a record of God saying “hello… hello… anybody there?” and people saying “hey, i think i heard something….” — as a starting point, from which things progressed. with fuzzy reception on GOD FM all along the way.
-i don’t think we were ever meant to read the bible to the “prescriptive extent” as humans have interpreted it over the aeons
Lea,
“Well, people get a little shirty with you sometimes when you tell them maybe they should leave a passage alone. Or maybe it doesn’t mean what they think it does.”
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who cares what they think.
it’s great to know what “I” think, which doesn’t come cheaply.
and then to go out and enjoy the sunset with a beverage of choice (wherein said ‘shirty people’ are of absolutely no consequence.)
Yes, this is a huge problem.
The issue i have is that if you have multiple ways to interpret something and you choose basically the meanest worst one that says a lot more about you than god.
Lea,
yes, i’d say so.
why, in the world, err on the side of what is unkind, mean, cruel…
(which in most cases impacts others, while things remain nice and copacetic for oneself)
is God really going to hold it against someone for erring on the side of what is kind & life-giving??
Thank you for your calm spirit. I think I agree with your point.
John Ortberg made genuine apology for his failing to respond to a situation more thoroughly. However, I don’t believe it reflects his overall character or pattern of judgement. To put him in the shadow of Willow Creek leadership at this time may not be fair. It has been revealed that he and his wife, and others tried for a long time to confront the wrong at Willow Creek. It took courage and integrity to do that. He wanted to see things change, and people repent without public shaming.
This world is tough on young people as well as their parents. The Ortberg’s may have been going through private grief for some time. At such a difficult time, people tend to say things to family members that are in the wrong tone, or out of balance. It’s better that we don’t put every word they uttered under the microscope.
Perhaps we can support this pastor’s family with prayer. The Menlo Park Church already mentioned that they will deal with things properly in the future if bad reports surface that are related to the party of interest. They are taking the responsible approach. We can pray for that church, too, without throwing them into a bad category first.
May the Lord shine great light into every church and protect the “little children”. May our Father bring wholeness and holiness to every soul, and strengthen His servants by His Spirit!
That is such a downplaying of the nature & importance of this situation that I’m basically incredulous. Those of us with child safeguarding responsibilities recognise this for what it is, or should be, career ending negligence. Use all the religious language you like, this was a failure of gigantic proportions.
Beakerj,
I did not intend to downplay the serious nature of this matter, though my overly brief sentence appeared that way. Yes, as the sins of harming children become so invasive in churches these days, leaders must be extra alert and proactive, and become better educated in everything so they can be better shepherds for the “sheep”.
This applies to John Ortberg, as well as a lot of other ministers in many churches! I try to avoid using meaningless religious phrases myself. Prayer does not reduce responsibilities, but prayer invites help from Heaven above. So I hope this helps.
It would be helpful if people who really know how to safeguard children begin to offer seminars or classes to local churches – big and small – on a regular basis.
birdoftheair,
I’m really glad to hear you weren’t minimising it as this was so serious.
There are many organisations that can come in to teach safeguarding in Churches, we have one here called CCPAS (Churches Child Protection Advisory Service)now renamed thirtyone:eight. And I’ll bet there are those in the States too – but it does take your church to admit that it needs this information as it too is vulnerable to people both inside & outside predating their children.
birdoftheair,
Not to be unkind, but if you need a ‘class’ or instruction from experts to know that you keep adults with pedophile urges away from children, you have no business being in any kind of ministry or supervisory role – anywhere. Just sayin’. Not suggesting that bringing in experts to discuss safety ideas is not a good idea, just that this was a total no-brainer. I’m not sure how anyone could excuse it.
100%. Sometimes, you only get one shot at a decision and his was grossly negligently bad. I don’t if he is apologizing now that people are calling him out about it and it’s been found out widely. His own son called him out on this and he did nothing. This is a classic ‘sorry I got caught’ situation.
TS00,
My comments here are general comments. I would not mind taking a class to be better educated even though I have read some things about this topic.
Anyone should know children need protection from harm. YES.
But not everyone is skillful in detecting the degree of harm or potential harm from someone. It takes even more knowledge and training to defend against such situations effectively. Otherwise groups like thirty-one: eight would not exist.
I am thinking about more preventive measures to help churches and ministries in the future. It is evident that even churches with “good” organization and policies are not 100% proof. However, we must make the effort to “safeguard” the children, including teenagers.