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“Don’t let out your true behaviour in the public, even if you were born nasty, make others feel you were well bred.” ― Michael Bassey Johnson
In 2014, TWW posted Dave Ramsey and Russell Moore – Trying to Silence the Lambs?
This post was based on an article in the Daily Beast: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Christian Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt.
Here is part of the post.
Begin review of 2014 post
Ramsey, a Christian whose Financial Peace University and other resources have been used by churches and other Christian groups, made headlines this week in an unflattering way. According to some who have left Lampo Group (Dave’s business), “Dave Ramsey was a bully.”
The Daily Beast just published an article that highlights what appear to be poor management skills on the part of Ramsey. It is entitled Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Christian Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt. The article begins with this:
Dave Ramsey makes millions telling you how to keep your financial house in order, but lately his employees claim he’s been having a bit of trouble with his own.
According to interviews with nearly two dozen current and former employees of his Nashville-based Lampo Group, Ramsey has engaged in what they describe as an increasingly paranoid campaign to identify and silence several critics—mostly former employees—who have appeared on Facebook and Twitter. Bizarre episodes allegedly involving online spying, gag orders, random firings, and offers of large cash bounties for information have created a climate of fear inside the Lampo headquarters, intensifying a discomfort many employees have felt the past several years with Ramsey’s management.
According to Matthew Paul Turner (who broke the news) Ramsey’s Nashville-based organization employs more than 400 people. The Dave Ramsey Show attracts an audience of around eight million listeners. Not only that, around 400 publications feature his “Dave Says” column, and over two million families have been involved in his Financial Peace University. These successful marketing ventures have generated an estimated net worth of $55 million.
How does Dave do it? Well, one of his ‘rules’ is described in The Daily Beast article. Turner explains:
Perhaps his No. 1 leadership mantra is that every business should implement a “no-gossip policy.” While nobody likes gossip, Dave Ramsey hates it with biblical passion. (Gossip is strongly condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.) Ramsey says there’s : “Positives can go up anywhere, negatives go up.” On his EntreLeadership podcast, after calling gossip “one of the most evil spirits that Satan ever let loose on this planet,” Ramsey said, “once I will warn you and then I will fire you! I have a zero-tolerance-plus-one policy for gossip. I will teach you once and then I will fire your butt.”
But perhaps most telling is the kind of gossip that Ramsey says is the worst. “The gossip about the person who’s freakin’ paying you!” As the president of The Lampo Group, the only thing Dave Ramsey hates more than gossip is seemingly when the gossip is about Dave Ramsey.
According to The Daily Beast article, around 100 former employees of The Lampo Group established a secret Facebook group that was password protected. Here is how the Facebook account operated, according to Turner:
Perhaps his No. 1 leadership mantra is that every business should implement a “no-gossip policy.” While nobody likes gossip, Dave Ramsey hates it with biblical passion. (Gossip is strongly condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.) Ramsey says there’s : “Positives can go up anywhere, negatives go up.” On his EntreLeadership podcast, after calling gossip “one of the most evil spirits that Satan ever let loose on this planet,” Ramsey said, “once I will warn you and then I will fire you! I have a zero-tolerance-plus-one policy for gossip. I will teach you once and then I will fire your butt.”
Earlier this spring it was discovered that someone shared the Facebook password with Ramsey who had been secretly reading the commentary between members of this private group.
Twitter accounts were also established by several people which featured parodies regarding Dave Ramsey and his organization. The article contains details about these Twitter accounts, along with screen shots. Then on May 12, 2014, the battle between Ramsey and these former employees came to a head. Turner explains:
According to three current employees, Ramsey chose a handful of the Facebook group’s members, former employees and plastered their pictures, their family members’ pictures, and screenshots of their private conversations on a large screen for all of his 400-plus employees to see. Amid his rant, Ramsey even mentioned that he had contacted the local police department and the FBI.
And even more startling to us was the bombshell that Ramsey once pulled a gun out of a gift bag to teach his employees a lesson about gossip. How ironic that a Christian man who teaches about ‘financial peace’ conducts himself in such a shocking manner.
There are more revelations in the article, so please take the time to read the entire piece.
End review of 2014 post
I have heard rumors for years that Ramsey *reaches out* to those who might speak about him in a critical way, especially if they used to work for him. I’ve been waiting for some followup to that 2014 article. I knew it would eventually happen. Sure enough, a few days ago, Nashville Scene posted: Deposition: Yes, Dave Ramsey Pulled Out a Gun in a Staff Meeting.
The article refers to this incident in the 2014 Daily Beast article quote in my original post.
The story was bonkers. But the most shocking allegation in the piece came by way of a quote from an anonymous former employee: “This is the guy who once pulled a loaded pistol out of a gift bag to teach us a lesson about gossip,” they said. “It was bizarre, even for Ramsey.
Apparently, this *bizarre* incident has been confirmed by a long time Ramsey employee, Jack Boone Gallaway Jr. It appears that Ramsey, out there making sure that gossip about him is stopped, has sued Kevin Paffrath, a real estate agent who criticized Ramsey on You Tube. The actual videos at the center of the dispute have been removed (I don’t know if this is temporary or not) but you can see his You Tube page with other mentions of Ramsey here.
Here is a link to the lawsuit against Paffrath.
The Nashville Scene makes mention that Paffrath’s Nashville attorney, Daniel Horowitz, appears to know something about SLAPP lawsuits. TWW’s good friend, Julie Anne Smith, successfully won her anti-SLAPP lawsuit against her former pastor who decided to sue her for leaving a negative comment on social media.
Here is a good article that explains “What is a SLAPP.”
SLAPPs are used to silence and harass critics by forcing them to spend money to defend these baseless suits. SLAPP filers don’t go to court to seek justice. Rather, SLAPPS are intended to intimidate those who disagree with them or their activities by draining the target’s financial resources.
SLAPPs are effective because even a meritless lawsuit can take years and many thousands of dollars to defend. To end or prevent a SLAPP, those who speak out on issues of public interest frequently agree to muzzle themselves, apologize, or “correct” statements.
In this situation, Ramsey is very, very well off and presumably has plenty money to throw at a critic to keep them quiet.
Here is Nashville Scene’s report from the deposition.(Remember, lying under oath, even in a deposition is a serious offense, often leading to jail time.)
[Horwitz]: Has Dave Ramsey ever pulled a gun out of a bag to try to teach a lesson about gossip?
MR. BUNDREN:· Objection, harassing, and relevance.· We’re getting pretty far afield from the claims made in this case. If we need to call the Judge, we will so I wouldn’t spend much time on this. You can answer.
THE WITNESS:· Yes.
Apparently, this is another question that Horowitz want answered.
Horwitz asks Galloway if Ramsey has “ever offered a cash bounty for information related to criticism of him online.” Bundren objects, instructs Galloway not to answer the question and says he’ll call the court to ask a judge to sustain his objection if questioning of that sort continues.
So, I am left with some questions.
- Does Ramsey use strong arm tactics to keep critics quiet?
- Does his definition of gossip include telling the truth about difficult and embarrassing behavior? If so, is it gossip or merely a way to inform people of a differing opinion about what constitutes *gospel* behavior in the workplace.
- Is it slander or merely an inconvenient truth?
- Will I be contacted to take down this post?
Titanium?
My church has used his seminars in the past….. I have already forwarded an article about this “gun issue” to my church and will be continuing to sound the alarm …..
Two Pistols
He’s a Christian? I’ve never heard him confess his faith.
Brian,
Perhaps keeping churches bankrolled (as members find financial peace in budgeting then tithing) is a faith journey.
Churches love him because he teaches tithing. So they buy his Financial Peace University. Blergh.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Exactly. I wonder if he really believes it, or if he just spotted it as the in for churches.
I’m surprised I never saw any response from that Lancaster-Capital school about their adjunct Wes. Is he still teaching there? Or is Mohler the only one who fired him?
Sounds like Ramsey manages his staff by manipulation, intimidation, and domination. There’s been an outbreak of that in the Christian Industrial Complex! Not exactly fruit of the Spirit. Are Christian celebrities trying to silence gossip or truth?
Robert Morris doesn’t want his followers to listen to gossip either – he wants them to get off the Internet:
“You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it. I mean, I have a friend of mine, that made a comment a while back, and it just blew up on the Internet. It blew up … you can’t imagine how many people have told me, that ‘this is true,’ “How ya know it’s true? ‘Read it on the Internet’
Anybody can write on the Internet. And the people who write on the Internet are people who would not have a platform, unless they put my name, or Bill Hybels’ name, or T.D. Jakes’ name in it, they wouldn’t have a platform, if they didn’t put someone’s name who already had a platform. Boy, I’m just fired up, I’m telling ya.” (Robert Morris)
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2015/09/27/gateway-pastor-robert-morris-calls-blogs-satans-hit-list/
Surely these leaders know “Whatever you whisper in a closed room will be shouted from the housetops. …. whispered to someone behind closed doors will be shouted from the rooftops” (Luke 12:3). In the meantime, leakers and whistleblowers would do well to remember that some of these Christian celebrities are packing heat!
These rumors have been swirling a long time.
Dave Ramsey’s advice is a mixed bag, and all of the good stuff can be gotten for free elsewhere.
His fans trend kind of cultish. I used to follow his facebook page but his commenters were really ‘everything dave says is gospel’ which put me off. He’s also kind of obsessed with spouses sharing bank accounts completely which I dont necessarily agree with always but is also completely irrelevant to me. I got a weird vibe from it.
In situations of major power asymmetry, in which the weaker party has no way to counter objectively unjust behavior on the part of the more powerful party, truth-telling to fellows among the powerless may be the only option.
For-profit corporations are not churches (though, of course, many self-described “churches” look an awful lot like for-profit corporations), and I’m not sympathetic to DR’s attempt to appeal to standards of conduct within the churches as a way of controlling his corporate subordinates.
One can hope that at some point in future, NDAs, non-disparagement contracts, and non-competes will be outlawed as abuses of power. That’s treading close to politics, so I’ll stop there.
Dave Ramsey is adored in SBC life. You can find his books and videos in most church libraries; his “Financial Peace” conferences are very popular with SBC members. Followers who proclaim “everything dave says is gospel” would do well to read the Gospels first. The average church member in America is a gullible soul.
Pingback: Dave Ramsey’s Got A Gun… | Confessions Of A Christian Freak
Or does he teach tithing because the church market segment is lucrative?
If a boss pulls out a loaded gun during a meeting to “make a point”, I’m reporting that person to the police. That’s a threat of violence and that person should be arrested and convicted.
Ramsey is a bully.
ishy,
If anyone else pulled out a gun in a workplace, they’d be considered a domestic terrorist. Ramsey shouldn’t be different just because he’s a famous “Christian” celebrity.
Sounds like Ramsey should become a pastor…since that kind of ‘leadership’ seems to be the current trend, especially in the SBC! I can remember a day when pastors served the congregation instead of the other way around. I’m certain there are still 7,000 folks who haven’t ‘bowed their knee to Baal’ but it sure doesn’t seem that way right now.
ishy,
As is stated over and over again here on TWW, the standards in Christian Industrial Complex are rock bottom compared to those of us that work in the evil, secular humanist, world.
I wish I had a dollar for every time a preacher, or Christian leader, called my world “evil, secular humanist”
JeffreyChalmers,
We are not allowed to have weapons on the premises at all so it’s kind of different for me. Dave owns his own company so i’m sure they’re allowed, but brandishing is still illegal yes? That seems bad.
But reporting your boss to the police isn’t always a great career move.
These days, You expect any different from a CHRISTIAN Leader?
Threatening them with a bullet if they don’t keep silent. “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
That’s not “shocking”, that’s the New NORMAL.
Oh, I’m sure employees are not allowed to have weapons on the premises.
But Rank Hath Its Privileges.
Including “I’VE GOT THE GUN!”
And gullible.
Yet another Fourth Person of the Trinity?
I smell CULT LEADER.
And if Christian celebrity shoots down a leaker/whistleblower in broad daylight in Times Square, their Christian followers will back their Christian celebrity with long prayers and praises in justification. Deus Vult.
If that person is bringing a loaded gun to staff meetings, then my job ain’t worth it!
It’s sad, but I agree with you.
I noticed companies that advertised themselves as “Christian” with the fish logo and stuff usually did a poor job. It’s even worse when parents and their kids were involved. And of course, we’ve seen what happens with nepotism in churches…
Max,
“The average church member in America is a gullible soul”—very gullible.
As one who lives in Nashville, stories abound about Ramsey’s treatment of his employees in various ways.
Dee, I will be surprised if you do not hear from his attorney within 24 hours about removing this post.
Samuel Conner,
Dave Ramsey helped set up the financial control of the mega churches and their satellite campuses?
Brian,
My thought is simply that the legal apparatus of NDAs, non-disparagement, non-competes is a common feature of for-profit business and mega-church employer-employee relationships. The way that the “great men” of the age rule over their subordinates is similar both inside and outside the churches.
I have no idea whether DR advises churches on financial operations; doubtless there are for-profit consulting firms out that that do this.
Luckyforward,
All of us readers need to support her if he does try to legally go after this Blog..
BTW: FPU is a for-profit LLC. I know you are not saying that it is a nonprofit, but just wanted to chime in in case people didn’t know.
When I was in junior high I attended a Christian Charm course. (Yep,along with Grubby to Grace with Teen Missions 2 times.)
I remember the demonstration about gossip using a tube of toothpaste. It was impossible to put the toothpaste (gossip) back in the tube. Lame but I’ve remembered it for decades. None of the pow factor Dave’s teaching had!
This reminds me of my ex church elder husband who taught 5th & 6th grade Sunday School class. They were quite wowed the week he pulled his concealed carry pistol out of his ankle holster and explained that men are to be defenders and the sheep dogs of the church protecting the sheep. Talk about a power differential.
His teaching was especially ironic since he is a sexual offender who abused his wife and children in many ways. When I told him on the way home I didn’t think that was an appropriate move, I was blamed for being so critical.
If you haven’t seen the entitled mentality up close, I hope you never do. Entitlement, arrogance, greed and love of power is present in too many churches who put labels like biblical manhood, godly leadership and other rubbish on outrageous, inappropriate behavior and attitudes.
The quote under “here’s how the Facebook group operated” seems to be the wrong quote?
Thanks for all you do.
Sandy Beach,
Did your church attract many like your ex-husband?
I’m so sorry that you had to live through that.
ABSOLUTELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION!
I suppose his staff all dive under the conference table now when he enters the room with a sack. Sounds like he manages his team James MacDonald-style.
You’ve just described the New Calvinist movement.
As a non-lawyer with unfortunate experiences of seeing weaponry, I’m not sure the incident described is brandishing. It might be a different crime, depending on some details. Did he point it at anyone, what did he say, etc.
And does it matter that he allegedly did this more than once? A Glassdoor review indicates that he also brought a bat and a sword to meetings: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Ramsey-Solutions-RVW4059184.htm
Maybe somebody with legal knowledge will enlighten us further.
I will be amazed if you aren’t pressured to take this post down.
I read these articles at the time they came out, so none of this surprises me. What do you expect from a man who has gotten filthy rich off of a “ministry”? A “ministry” that is all about money! To me, a ministry is something you offer to God as a way to serve him, not a way to make a financial killing. If he wanted to offer this as a ministry, he could have easily provided the information free or in a budget priced book. There are no great secrets in his teachings that a person can’t learn elsewhere (without the tithing propaganda). The man lives in a castle, for heaven’s sakes. His fierce attitude about “gossiping” reads to me as an admission that he is doing things he never wants to see the light of day.
The most disgusting thing to me, though, in this whole post is the person, the weasel, who gave Ramsay the password to the private group.
I never felt I needed Financial Peace (my mom was the best money manager I ever knew, and she taught me well). My church offers the course, but when I read the syllabus, I realized I was doing just fine. I think that Ramsey may be a bit cuckoo in the head, too (that’s probably slander and gossip).
If the employees weren’t brainwashed they’d all have scampered to new jobs ASAP after that incident.
This is an explanation of Ramsey means by using the word.
https://cdn.ramseysolutions.net/media/pdf/stop_workplace_gossip.pdf
I am not defending Ramsey’s actions but posting for information. Based on reading this I don’t think “gossip” is the right name to call it. Criticism might be a better name.
my experience with the Financial Peace University was back in the fall of 2013; because of a special offered to engaged couples, my ex-fiance and I took the course for free. It was at a Lutheran church, so it’s not just the SBC that have adopted his courses. But anyway, my ex was the type that hung off of Ramsey’s words; I, on the other hand, had my doubts that this was really necessary, as financial advice like his was offered for free on the interwebs, but I kept my tongue because of my betrothed. I’m not surprised he has this kind of personality and predilection to such rash behaviour, considering my experiences with such types in my 30 years of being a Christian and all…
I don’t think Ramsey actually referred to this as his “ministry”, he was just providing financial wisdom from a Biblical perspective and all (he would quote from Proverbs a lot during his video seminars)…then again, it’s been a while since I’ve watched those, so I could be wrong…
Sarah Connor Rocks!
Yes, never criticize someone who is always right. Narcissists have the following spin on “Five Enemies of Unity” (my parentheses):
1) Poor communication (only tell me what I want to hear)
2) Gossip (never criticize me)
3) Unresolved disagreements (disagree with me and I will fire you)
4) Lack of a shared purpose (it’s my purpose, get behind it or else)
5) Sanctioned incompetence (never talk about me at the water cooler)
S/he is probably sitting at the right hand of Ramsey now; the only one to get a raise this year.
Yes, the thought of a fellow worker placing a knife in the back of fellow workers now leads to a workplace without trust. Dysfunction always breeds dysfunction . . .
I will occasionally listen to Ramsay on the radio. I find him to be arrogant, condescending, and boastful so I wouldn’t give him a dime by purchasing his material. I wish I could say I was surprised by this article but the dude is a mean spirited jerk. I had the same reaction to James Macdonald when I first heard him. Ramsay and Macdonald are the same people, different genres.
If I remember correctly, public officials can’t sue for libel. Isn’t David Ramsey part of the current administration?
Sarah Palen tried suing the New York Times from an article they wrote during the 2012 election. She lost the case.
David Ramsey shouldn’t be able intimidate anyone now.
Steve240,
I agree. He was intimidating those who might make statements unfavorable to his finely crafted image. It isn’t the same as gossip. But such types tend to label truth telling as gossip. So many bullies at the tops of “ministries.”
Brian,
More than I realized. The pastor, 6 elders and most of the church sided with my poor ex since I refused to forgive what they told people he had never done. More guns than you would imagine out in the sticks. Pastor has a doctorate. Ex an MBA. Not exactly red-necks. I opened a can of worms I had no idea existed in my rural home church. Way too many like him and his enablers sadly. He is the mayor of tiny town now. The pistol was the least of his weapons, I assure you!
Are you sure his company isn’t called the ‘lampoon Group’?
Hand your negative issues up but the chain, but if you do you’ll get fired for it is not the solution to ‘gossip’ Dave. It says they have a ‘no gossip’ policy. Imagine.
You mean the Hero of the Party who gets to sit at Big Brother’s Right Hand, dog biscuit, pat on the head and all?
In two words: EASY MARK.
In one word: SUCKER.
Learned that once the hard way.
NEVER EVER DO BUSINESS WITH A SELF-IDENTIFIED CHRISTIAN(TM) FILL-IN-THE-BLANK.
AND THE MORE CHRISTIAN(TM) THEY TELL YOU THEY ARE, RUN!
One of the guest writers at Internet Monk said he used to work in a radio station’s ad department and they’d extend credit to a crackhead before they would a Christian(TM) because they’d been burned so many times.
Notice how he redefined the word:
“Gossip, defined as discussing something negative with anyone who
can’t help solve the problem”
I cannot find that definition of gossip anywhere. His definition would include making negative comments about traffic or weather. Also, how do you know a person cannot help solve the problem if you don’t bring it up? They might not be able to solve it, but could be able to offer good advice on how to find someone who can.
Well, and he redefined “the problem,” too, since he doesn’t think that presenting a gun, bat, and sword during successive staff meetings is “the problem.”
Ken F (aka Tweed),
On this theory (DR’s definition), I reckon that US would still be a collection of colonies of the British Empire.
Truth-telling among the powerless can be a useful precursor to and preparation for collection action, which can help solve problems.
This isn’t to assume that the powerless are intrinsically more righteous or wiser than the powerful. But in specific situations, they might not have yet been as corrupted by power as the powerful.
Exaclty. His definition would also rule out whistle-blowing, because the first person to receive the report is typically not one who can actually solve the problem.
Samuel Conner,
This item may be of interest:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-causes-brain-damage/528711/
I suspect that large power disparities are fundamentally incompatible with ministry.
But nobody has answered the important question: did he pay cash for the gun or did he violate his own rules by using a credit card?
Just in case someone were to happen upon this article looking for information about financial peace and Dave Ramsey I just want to say that there are far better options out there such as Larry Burkett, Ron Blue, and Howard Dayton. So if you are looking for financial peace in your life please look at these individuals instead and read what they have to say, if you are looking for financial advice from a Christian perspective.
Also, for further information about SLAPP lawsuits, please check out John Oliver’s recent exposé at eatshitbob.com.
What I find interesting is how Dave Ramsey got so excited about what people were saying about him in a private Facebook group. It wasn’t as if what people posted was on the internet for anyone to see. This was a private group where former employees could commiserate together and confirm that they weren’t the only ones with issues with how Dave Ramsey did business.
Then again my guess is Dave Ramsey is infuriated that former employees who he was so nice to give such wonderful jobs to would dare to say bad things about him.
Also, like you see with a lot of leaders when people criticize a leader they react and say this criticism can’t possibly be true. It doesn’t help when someone like Dave Ramsey is surrounded with a bunch of yes men and yes women. It can make one develop quite the ego.
It’s the only way for them to have “Financial Peace” with their paychecks.
Samuel Conner,
Long term power causes obtuseness of the individual?
Brian,
It seems to impair the ability to empathize with and understand others.
I have read that people with the personality trait/type known as “sociopathy” (which is characterized by deficiencies in both empathy and conscience) tend to aspire to power over others and that the upper reaches of hierarchical organizations tend to be overpopulated with people with this personality type. That’s bad enough as it is, but this research further suggests that occupying positions of power over others tends to bend one’s personality in the same direction.
As I wrote previously, it might be that large power disparities are fundamentally incompatible with ministry.
Re:
I suspect that this is a generally true principle, and that might shed a bit of light on Jesus’ ministry methods, for example as illustrated in the famous saying “… the Son of Man came not to be be served, but to serve…”
I think it would be advisable to run away from would-be or self-described christian “leaders” who don’t exemplify this approach to ministry.
The Christian Industrial Complex is populated by celebrities who claim Christ but who aren’t Christlike. And it’s working for them! Combine a gimmick with a gift of gab and a touch of charisma and you’re on your way to stardom within Christianity Lite! Give them what they want and they will come … such is the condition of much of the “church” in America.
Dave Ramsey’s “gossip policy” is just one step from ”loyalty above the law”….. and bring a loaded gun, bats, and any other weapon to meetings as a threat tactic is against laws in my book..
Whistle-blowers should have their names tweeted all over the twitterverse!
That was not my point. It actually goes beyond whistleblowers. His definition would eliminate just about all reports of EO violations, formal grievances, or any other form of reporting management abuses, because reports such as these are not typically submitted to the person who can resolve the problem. It looks like DR may have set up a system where all legitimate grievances can be considered gossip.
He learned that from 9Marks.
Leaders like this are above correction and rebuke, but not beyond reproach.