The Messier 94 Galaxy-NASA
“Regret is not a proactive feeling. It is situated in disappointment, sorrow, even remorse. It merely wishes things were different without an act to cause a difference. However, repentance is different. Repentance is an admission of, hatred of, and turning away from sin before God.” Monica Johnson
FBC Clarksville disbanded pastoral search committee and apologized.
Well, it was quite a weekend on the Wes Feltner front. FBC Clarksville leadership disbanded the pastoral search committee and apparently told all candidates that the process was suspended and no offers would be forthcoming at this time. I don’t know if other candidates were on the short list but that seems to have been implied.
This left me with some questions:
- Why disband the search committee unless there was evidence of serious conflict between them and other leadership?
- Who knew about Feltner’s alleged abuse and why did they continue to stand firm about his candidacy?
- Why not be more specific in their apology? Surely they understand, by now, the problems with Paul Batson’s statement. Why not have him walk it back and apologize?
- Listen to Feltner’s video at Berean Baptist posted in the next section.) It appears that he has many family members in that area. Did those familial ties extend to FBC Clarksville and the leadership?
🙌 Thankful for the #PowerfulMessage in the sermon and #Apology this morning. God is working, seek Him first. Praying with @FBCT_Voice and for them. #ChurchToo @wartwatch @watchkeep @SNAPNetwork @russ_meek @SBCForSuchATime @SusanCodone @ChristaBrown777 @Truthinlight84 pic.twitter.com/PpClfyrnK4
— Meg Frey (@mrsdafrey83) November 10, 2019
Watch Wes Feltner’s video played at Berean Baptist Church
I was sent this video that was filmed during the second service at Berean Baptist on 11/10/19. Feltner did not appear during the service. It is a bit odd since it appears to be accompanied by music but maybe that’s a thing at that church.
I am going to go through his statements from the video and analyze them from the perspective of my decade of work involving sexual abuse in churches. I believe this analysis is important since it appears to me that Feltner and some members at the churches involved do not really understand the dynamics surrounding clergy abuse.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/113jqXsDFK9ZpU0TeZQCsFL9kE3j4uebE/view
Feltner begins by stating that these allegation involve actions from 17 years ago
I enjoy awatching Grantchester on Masterpiece Theater. It involves a vicar who helps a local detective solve murders. In one of the earlier episodes the vicar made a profound statement. When confronted by some folks who claimed that since the crimes occurred 20 years ago, it wasn’t important, he said “Does the fact that the crime occurred 20 years ago make it any less of a crime?”
Sexual abuse is a crime that has lifelong implications. In my experience, teenagers are often unable to verbalize what happened, often due a sense of shame and confusion. However, they eventually become adults. I find that many individuals who were abused come to a realization in their 30s and 40s that they were not to blame for the actions of their abuser. They are then willing to speak out.
Jules Woodson, whose on story gained international attention, remarked to me that the responses of Wes Feltner, along with the involved churches, reminded her of her own story involving Andy Savage when she was 17.
I have a question for Feltner. Did he ever reach out to these women in the intervening 17 years? Did he ever apologize for his actions? Since he claims he was called to *preach the Gospel,* why didn’t he apply his understanding of sin to his situation? I have to conclude that he really didn’t care or he hoped it would stay hidden which would also mean that he cared more about himself.
He claimed he was working as *youth group leader* as a young man at a church in Indiana and that he has been accused of pastoral abuse.
Apparently he holds a very low view of the youth group leaders since he appears to be implying that he really wasn’t one of those pastor types and besides, he was a *young man.* He was also identified as a youth pastor by these women. There are some things wrong with his statement.
- He implicates every young professional who carries out their duties with dignity and in keeping with the law. EMTs, firefighters, nurses, law enforcement, teachers, etc. can be quite young and they seem to be able to fulfill their duties without having sex with those they are serving. In fact, if they do, they will likely be fired, lose their licenses, and even go to prison. I will close this post with one such example.
- Pastors hold a sacred duty not to abuse their position. People come to them for counsel and support. They are prone, at this point, to being manipulated. There is an unequal power dynamic in the relationship. In many such instances, consent is not possible.
- He claims he *dated* this women with the permission of their parents. Did those parents know they were giving him permission to have sex with their daughters? Somehow, I bet they thought that he was a nice young pastor who didn’t do things like that. Also, read my closing example at the end of the post. It really doesn’t matter if they gave him permission to have sex with their daughters. Such behavior, in some states, is considered a crime even with parental permission.
Amy Smith was quoted in HuffPost regarding this matter:
Smith pointed out that in 13 U.S. states, it is a crime for clergy to have sexual contact with people they are counseling. One of those states is Minnesota, where Feltner’s current church is located. (Indiana and Nevada don’t appear to have such a law on the books.)
Smith said that Feltner violated his position of trust as a youth pastor when he “preyed” upon teens in his care. She believes he “disqualified himself” from ministry back then and should have been banned from the pulpit ever since.
“A sexual relationship between a pastor and congregant, even adults, is never consensual given the imbalance of power,” Smith told HuffPost. “It is a violation of authority, trust and power, preying upon vulnerable people.”
He claimed that a small group of individuals attempted to stop him from being hired at FBC Clarksville and widely circulated the story with the permission of the alleged victims.
Did Feltner ever contact these women in 17 years? Did he ever consider that one day his actions could be uncovered? Did he stop and think that lots of people might find his reported actions deplorable? Feltner made a profound error in his actions in those intervening years. He did nothing, as far as has been reported, to address the situation. It appears he never considered that society would begin to question long held assumptions that some sexual activity should be considered abuse. See #metoo. That was bad timing for Feltner.
In the end, no small group of people can prevent a church from hiring Feltner or anybody else. It is up to the church to make that decision. If he’s mad about it, then fuss at the leaders at FBC Clarksville. Or is that a bit too threatening?
He claimed the women were 18 years old, apparently implying that having sex with them was OK because they were of consenting age.
So, if a doctor has sex with a patient in the exam room and she said it was OK, everything is fine, right? Wrong! Such activity can be considered coercive. Said doctor would most likely lose his license and could even be arrested, even if it is reported years later. Why does secular society have higher standards than some churches?
Within the evangelical church, sexual activity outside of marriage is considered a sin. Add to that, it appears that Feltner and the women weren’t *deeply in love* so both could claim an oopsy.* He had two simultaneous relationships.
To make matters worse, it appears the women were told to keep quiet about it when it was reported to First Southern Baptist Church in Evansville, Indiana. Jules Woodson was also told to keep quiet about her experience. Is this part of an old playbook by churches in the SBC?
Feltner claims the women had the responsibility to bring their grievances to him, ala Matthew 18.
Since, as far as we know, Feltner never contacted the women in 17 years, it’s obvious that he had little to no interest in their well being. I believe that the women were involved in a coercive relationship with their youth pastor. There was an unequal power dynamic which Feltner appears to have exploited to have sex with the women. This relationship had little to do with sex and everything to do with power.
The women did report this to their original church when it happened and claimed they were told to keep silent. They already did the hard work and got nowhere. It appears that Feltner and the church had no intention of dealing with the situation. if I had been asked, I would have advised the women not to meet with Feltner at this time and I really like Matthew 18 when it properly applied (which in many cases, it’s not.)
He claims he reached out to the *group* to meet along with an independent mediator. What a pile of baloney. These women were told to keep quiet by both Feltner and their Indiana church years ago. Feltner knew what had happened and he didn’t do a dad-blasted thing for 17 years until they started talking. It gives the impression that he suddenly realized that he was in trouble and needed to kick into high gear to protect himself.
In my opinion, these are not the actions of a sincerely repentant man. He appears to be only interested in damage control. He said he is willing to apologize. Really? Why didn’t he do it years ago?
Feltner claims that people are conspiring to destroy his reputation and his career.
Feltner appears to think he’s a hot commodity since there is a conspiracy to destroy his reputation and career. Did he ever consider the possibility that God is calling him to account for his damaging actions 17 years ago?Did he ever consider that he had 17 years to fix this situation and he didn’t care enough to do it? It sure sounds that way to me.
There are many people;e who truly believe that Feltner gave up his pastor card when he chose to have sex with these women who were under his ministry years ago. They believe that he is guilty of clergy abuse. If he had been a school teacher and done this with two students, he could have been arrested.
You see, Feltner can be forgiven for what he did if he is truly repentant. I’ve yet to sense this in his statements. However, even if he truly repents, that does not mean he should be a pastor. If he is forgiven by grace, he can return to church…as a member, not as the pastor! I cannot understand why church members and leaders appear to forget what is meant by forgiveness. It does not mean to go directly back to what he was doing.
There are consequences to our actions. The Scripture is quite clear that pastors must be above reproach. Feltner, for the rest of his life, will not be above reproach. He harmed some women and I’ve yet to see him discussing this aspect of his behavior.
Warning: If anyone tried to bring up the old *David was forgiven,* you will be roundly excoriated for not understanding the difference between David’s occupation and the occupation of pastors and priests…think long and hard about it.
Feltner claims he is being threatened and that this is unhealthy for his family, so he is taking a leave of absence.
If he is being threatened, then that is really, really bad. However, it seems to me that he is blaming this on those who have exposed his actions as opposed to a few sickos out there. He, and he alone, is to blame for what is happening now. He must not try to lay this one on those who are exposing his exploits.
Shout out to Al Mohler for his historic statement:
Gotta give him his due.
In 2007, the SBC began to debate a clergy abuse database (which never got off the ground.) During the debate, the idea of using *credible accusations of abuse* was roundly derided. The only thing that mattered was an actual conviction in a court of law.
Mohler fired Feltner from his adjunct position at SBTS. Please reread his statement, concentrating on the words in the 1st paragraph, 4th line. Will this become the new standard in the SBC? I sure hope so.
Final thoughts:
I listened to Feltner’s video a couple of times. I didn’t get the sense that he is deeply sorry for what he did 17 years ago. Maybe he doesn’t know how to say he’s sorry? He said nothing about how sorry he is that his actions have put his family through this. He merely seems a bit angry that he got caught. That worries me. Is there something more going on here?
Jesus called the church to be the light on the hill. That means, folks, that there is a huge spotlight that will attract the attention of the community. Be warned: the church does not get to dictate what the people see. Sometimes they will see some wonderful thing but they will also see some bad things.
If we understand the Gospel, as Feltner discussed in his statement, then we should understand that we are sinners. That means we can’t fake it to a watching world. Churches must confess when they screw up and ask for forgiveness from those they have harmed and from those who are watching. Teaching the Gospel involves painful humility at times. Feltner has a long way to go.
An important, real life example for churches of how asexual abuse is handled in the teaching profession.
In 2018, the Daily Wire posted 22-Year-Old Teacher Charged With Sexual Assault For Sex With 18-Year-Old Student.
A female, 22 year old track and field coach in Connecticut continued to have sex with an 18 year old student after having started the relationship when she was a student teacher. A parent of another student reported this to the School Superintendent who immediately called the police.
According to police, the sexual encounters took place at the young woman’s home in New Britain from December 25 to January 11.
Both the 18-year-old and the former teacher told police that it was the student who initiated the relationship
According to the Daily Mail, the teacher was 21 when the relationship started. Reason reported that the parents of the student did not want charges to be pressed since the couple of in love.
However, she was arrested. The Daily Mail reported a statement from the superintendent:
Superintendent Moore added, “Whether someone is 21, 41, or 61, the moment they are a part of a school as a student teacher, mentor, or coach, they enter into a sacred trust with our students and community.”
It’s time for the church to stop blowing off sexual abuse. Feltner should leave the pastorate and use his *Gospel calling* to serve in other capacities. I don’t get why these fallen pastors insist that the only way for them to serve God is in the pulpit. Is it the money and the celebrity? There is much pain and suffering in the world. Feltner should get going and make himself useful. Maybe he should start by cleaning the floors at the local rescue mission…
PS: I believe the victims, by the way, but I bet you knew that.
First!
Best regards,
God
2 slow
bronze?
You keep claiming that he had sex with both women but one of them has said they never had sex. Are you just ignorant or purposely being misleading to fit your narrative?
You say to not talk about David being forgiven so I’ll bring up someone who had a more important job than David or Feltner. Peter, after denying Jesus, was forgiven and restored. Since we are already murderers for nailing our savior to a cross, I believe Pastors can be forgiven and restored after repentance.
Small correction – he had *three* simultaneous relationships. One each with the two victims, plus the prior relationship he was in with the woman that he ended up marrying.
Thanks for all the work you do, Dee!!
Rich,
Excellent! Thank you. I didn’t word that right!
God,
Amen!
“Pastors hold a sacred duty not to abuse their position. People come to them for counsel and support.” (Dee)
Which is why I continue to hold the position that “pastors” who push sacred duty aside to betray and abuse others should be permanently disqualified from ministry. Forgive them ‘if’ they genuinely repent? Certainly. Restore them to the pulpit? NO!
Churches which make light of this (“it was 17 years ago” … “we’ve all sinned” etc. etc.) share in the sins of fallen church leaders. God will not bless them unless they too repent and deal with the wayward pastor appropriately.
“Warning: If anyone tried to bring up the old *David was forgiven,* you will be roundly excoriated for not understanding the difference between David’s occupation and the occupation of pastors and priests…think long and hard about it.” (Dee)
Yeah, I’m getting tired of churches dragging David into their mess! David was in the military, not the ministry!! To betray the sacred office of pastor is serious and should be treated seriously, rather than attempting to invoke David … citing that argument in such cases is not only “Old Testament”, but getting old indeed! Which reminds me, there are no examples in the New Testament of pastors who failed morally being restored to ministry.
Attention: Wes Feltner
Matthew has another passage for YOU:
23Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift at the altar and go. First make things right with your brother or sister and then come back and offer your gift. 25Be sure to make friends quickly with your opponents while you are with them on the way to court. Otherwise, they will haul you before the judge, the judge will turn you over to the officer of the court, and you will be thrown into prison. 26I say to you in all seriousness that you won’t get out of there until you’ve paid the very last penny. [Common English Bible]
Wes beware the Judge…
From Feltner’s statement:
“… 17 years ago … 17 years ago … 17 years ago …”
Reminds me of Andy Savage: “… 20 years ago … 20 years ago … 20 years ago …”
It took the SBC 150 years to formally repent of the racial sins of its founders; I doubt that the founders ever did. But the SBC finally got around to doing the right thing. No hint of genuine repentance yet from Feltner (nor from Savage, for that matter).
Speaking of doing the right thing, kudos to Al Mohler – he did the right thing (this time).
From Feltner’s statement:
“… events that occurred 17 years ago when I was a single young man working as a youth leader …”
I repeat. The SBC needs to seriously rethink its youth ministry model. Putting “a single young man” flesh baby in charge of other flesh babies is not good. Hormones are waiting to happen! You will not find the office of “youth pastor” in New Testament instruction for doing church. What you will find is a clear exhortation for older saints to mentor youth.
The argument that this happened 17 years ago does nothing to diminish the seriousness of this crime. Even if Feltner had been an unbeliever at the time – rather than a supposed ‘pastor’ in training – upon becoming a child of God he should have repented of his previous serious sins, and taken steps to seek forgiveness and make restitution if possible. We are not talking about a little teenage drinking, or maybe some drag racing. None of his actions suggest ownership of great evil done, repentance or godly concern for those wronged and wounded.
This guy deserves all of the grief he gets. It’s not like people did not know before the #metoo age that using and defrauding others for sexual pleasure was wrong. This guy was obviously a seriously deceptive manipulator, persuading three young ladies and three sets of parents that he was earnestly pursuing a valid relationship – at the same time. Using and deceiving all of them. How and why one actually married him, and remains with him to this day, is beyond understanding. One has to wonder if she ever knew the whole story.
This tragic story demonstrates how clever, attractive, charismatic narcissists can so easily abuse the trust and ‘authority’ commonly granted to pastors without question. This is a lesson all need to learn, as the abuse is not limited to taking sexual advantage of young people. If a man will do that, what won’t he do?
If one does bring up David, one at least ought to also acknowledge that when he was confronted, he actually did acknowledge his transgression — “I have sinned against YHWH”. And, of course, that trouble followed him to the end of this days.
I don’t have the heart to view WF’s statement, but it sounds from the OP description like there is not much of a Davidic sense of guilt before God. It might be a bit like Jesus’ story about the unrighteous judge who did not fear God or care about people. He only responded because he was pressured to by another’s actions.
I suppose that if this sort of thing carries on, the job of “pastor” will lose all moral authority and prestige, and then the power imbalance will be less.
New Calvinism*, if left to itself, will lead to antinomianism. We have seen hints of that all over the movement.
* Berean Baptist Church is affiliated with The Gospel Coalition (= The Calvinism Coalition)
They control by manipulation, intimidation, and domination. None of which are fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Why disband the search committee unless there was evidence of serious conflict between them and other leadership?
It is not unusual in an SBC church for a pastor search committee to be disbanded. Sometimes the committee cannot agree on a candidate; at other moments internal church disagreements cause the church to call the committee back and start anew at a later date.
My guess is that the Clarksville deacons want to totally restart the process anew at a future date which is what their statement alluded to.
Perhaps they are waiting for Berean to complete its investigation … if Feltner is cleared, Clarksville might pursue him again? Hey, stranger things happen – there is a group of over 2,000 folks who have partnered with James MacDonald to keep him in ministry (yeah, hard to believe isn’t it?!) On the other hand, Berean elders might feel that the search committee needs a reboot since they didn’t dig deep enough to uncover Feltner’s past. After serving on three pastor search committees, I can tell you to never trust only a pastoral candidate’s references – approach church members from past churches for their spin on Pastor.
I meant to say Clarksville elders
Really curious who the ‘independent’ investigation at Berean will be done by…
And I agree – it seems that Feltner is only sorry that these events are being made public, and definitely feeling sorry for himself.
FBC Clarksville is too!
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/church/first-baptist-clarksville/
The more this Wes guy speaks, the more he incriminates himself.. that statement ranks up there on the slimy scale..
Guys like him tend to just make things worse the more they talk.. someone should ask him how many Roses he has given out over the years, and did he have “special Roses”…..
I think Feltner is sorry he was caught, not sorry about what he did. He had to control the narrative then, lying to two sets of parents as to dating his daughters, while maintaining his relationship with the woman he eventually married. He had to keep it all a secret so he could take one to Las Vegas and engage in very questionable behavior. Then, when the news broke, he told everyone to keep their mouths shut and hoped nothing leaks out. Now, he is trying to control the narrative again, but it’s a different time, and people are getting fed up with the members of creepsRus.
This is Christian? … Leadership?
“it appears that Feltner and the women weren’t *deeply in love* so both could claim an oopsy.*”
Right. This is what stood out to me. I would probably feel sorry for Feltner if he had gotten romantically involved with a young woman, things got out of hand, and, as Dee said, there was an “oopsy.” I think most of us understand human weakness and temptation. Don’t worry, I’m not justifying it. It’s still wrong, and ministers– including youth pastors– are more accountable because of their position.
But. The fact that he was two-timing and then three-timing?!?!? Are you kidding me? I had more honor as a non-Christian. I NEVER cheated on my girlfriends. This is so low. This guy was 24 years old, a professing Christian, and in the ministry? Conniving and manipulating like this? We realize, sexual sin is very serious. But there’s something particularly evil about lying and using these girls like that.
There is no other area of life, outside the pastorate, where this kind of conversation would ever take place. Would anyone hire a repentant embezzler to take care of the money? Would anyone hire a repentant cattle thief to manage the herd? Would a fire department hire a repentant arsonist? Such applicants for any of the aforementioned positions would be ushered out the door quickly. I can understand why such people would desire to regain their positions of trust; but for the life of me, I can not understand why any reasonable, right thinking person would ever consider hiring them. To all the people who promote the hiring or continued employment of known pastoral abusers I simply ask; “Have you lost you mind?” (not to mention your moral and spiritual compass)
Evidence abounds that the organized church in America has lost its collective ‘spiritual’ mind. We’re not scaring the devil much, that’s for sure.
That’s actually a good thing with these guys … mega-pastors are effective communicators (that ability supersedes everything else), they have to communicate, they ‘must’ talk, so they eventually do themselves in with their words (to those who have ears to hear).
I think the word is Kept HAREM.
Isaiah 55:8?
To which Feltner responded “… that was 17 years ago … 17 years ago … 17 years ago …”
To which the Church of the Living God responds “… you were a pastor … a pastor … a pastor …”
One of the things I really hate about damage control (ie, Feltner’s statement) is when the accused says something like “not all the allegations are true”. Well, tell us then. Which ones are true; which ones are false? But they never actually come out with specifics. It’s just a technique to obfuscate and confuse. I think Mahaney did something similar – saying he really wanted to address the allegations but couldn’t at the time because of legal matters. It’s like they’re saying, “Trust me, I’m a good guy. I can’t think of a single shred of evidence to support this assertion at the time, but just trust me.” The worst.
Luckyforward,
I have heard a slightly different story from a source which I trust. Apparently, the interim pastor before the current one quit when he found out that Feltner was going to be chosen. There was an apparent serious disagreement on the choice of Feltner, even amongst those in leadership.I think something more was at play.
Feltner said in his statement that his parents and family lived in the area and that is why he considered the position. I think this is a clue that points to the conflict. I think there was pressure applied.
Now the following is totally my thinking with no proof. As I have said, for a decade, follow the money.It’s a holdover from business school. I think there is something that has not yet been revealed. There was a reason that the church leadership, in the form of Paul Batson, would release one of the dumbest statements I have yet to hear in today’s climate of #churchtoo. It was strong, arrogant and condescending. We are missing something here.
Max,
Good comment. Whoever advised him to keep repeating *17 years* was really stupid. The real problem with this statement is *For 17 years you knew what you had done and did nothing to repent. Why?* Could it be that there is more here?
Some folks would respond that he wasn’t a youth “pastor”, he was a youth “leader” at the time. However, Feltner considered his position at FBC-Evansville as ministry experience on his bio … he was fulfilling the role of “pastor” over those youth.
The reason the New Calvinists are so interested in social justice issues is because of the big flaw in Calvinist teaching. Remember, in their view God has already chosen who is and isn’t going to Heaven, and nothing will change His mind, and as a result evangelism is done it’s done with a sense of obligation (as opposed to genuine concern for one’s eternal fate). Since people want to do something that makes a real difference, they go to social justice matters, and ultimately they take precedence over evangelism.
It’s an old psychological trick designed to deflect. Folks hearing that turn their personal clock back and reflect “What was ‘I’ doing then?” When I do that, I’m reminded that I wasn’t a pastor, while Feltner says “I was a single young man, working as a youth leader.” We are to focus more on “single young man” (stuff happens) rather than “youth leader” (don’t let stuff happen).
Bill Weber would say “hold my grape juice” (except he’s dead). Google the D Magazine article on him.
17 years
Ava, it’s increasingly clear that commitment to Christ in the American church is waning … in both pulpit and pew.
Thank you, Dee, for the update. You are 100% correct – there is much more here to know than has been revealed. For an interim pastor to walk out on a church’s pastoral choice is both unusual and powerful. Add the reality that “parents and family live in the area” suggests some pressure coming from somewhere to get Feltner the pastorate. This type of pressure would in turn set off disagreement and conflict in leadership. Thus, the deacons decided to “punt”, call off the pastoral search and disband the committee until some of this blows over.
Sadly, at its best, the “pastor search committee” process in SBC churches is highly political and is fraught with various issues the committee “wants” in its new pastor. Add in everything else in the Feltner situation, and it goes from bad to worse very quickly.
The sad thing is that we disregard the teaching of Jesus Himself when we do accord these people some sort of power, authority, or whatever that makes people more vulnerable.
People will always be vulnerable to wolves in leadership as long as we think of believers in two classes: clergy and laity.
Perhaps a healthier view of leadership and less idol worship would help.
Pastor Wade, care to weigh in on how fraudulent authority sets people up to be abused like this?
Max,
Let’s add to the list of things that Wes was at the time, I do believe he was also a ministerial student at Southern Seminary at the time of the reported activity with these young ladies. Even without being a “pastor,” he was to be held to an honor and conduct code of the Seminary. I wonder if Southern will revoke/rescind his degrees based on fraud and conduct unbecoming? Isn’t it obvious that Church is impotent? Sorry for the pun, but there is no wonder why there are fewer converts in our day, and why spiritual children are divorcing themselves from spiritual families.
The article said the girls brought this information to the church and were blamed for getting ‘duped’. How does that work if he was openly dating them with permission, as he implied? What did the church mean here?
Telling anyone to keep quiet about a relationship, whether it is occuring at the time or in the past is a red flag, imo. Learned that one the hard way.
This…sounds nothing like dating openly with permission. And the counseling through a breakup manipulation is gross.
It also sounds like at least one was still in high school. Dear grown men. Stop ‘dating’ girls in high school. Period.
David,
By the way, what constitutes a pastor? One does not have to be ordained to be a pastor in the SBC. One doesn’t even have to go to seminary. Wade Burleson has some thoughts on the matter. He believes that we are not defining the word *pastor* correctly.
Also, pastor aside, this guys behavior was sleazy and gross in general.
His behavior now shows no remorse for the way he treated these women.
And where is this dudes ‘repentance’ Chip?
I dont see it.
This is probably why he wanted them to keep it quiet #cheatersgonnacheat
I feel sorry for his wife. Did she know any of this?
PaulK: “One of the things I really hate about damage control (ie, Feltner’s statement) is when the accused says something like “not all the allegations are true”. Well, tell us then. Which ones are true; which ones are false?”
Yes! Bugs me too.
You are supposed to think the worst stuff is lies and the mildest stuff is truth. He ‘dated’ 18 year olds, not he manipulated teenage high school students into sex while dating multiple people simultaneously. It’s a trick.
I served on three pastor search committees. I attempted to steer them to pray together until we heard from God on the matter, but they all proceeded to pursue what ‘they’ wanted (praying and seeking God’s will was too time-consuming). Yep, there’s a lot wrong in SBC life other than the New Calvinism flood overtaking it.
To the person who tried to play gotcha by bringing up Peter’s denial of Jesus and his forgiveness by Jesus in order to claim that Feltner is OK by him. He was wise not to bring up David but makes the same mistake here.
Dee is finally recuperating from banging her head on the table. Do not play pick and choose a verse. Instead, look at the timeline and place the event in the correct time period. There are 3 main time periods dealing with God and his relationship with mankind.(Revelation is a 4th but not impt to this conversant.
1. Old Testament: Mankind is a screwup and cannot obey the Law.
2. New Testament during the time Jesus was on the earth: Jesus taught the people that they were unable to follow the Law and He was introducing something amazing-His sacrifice and Resurrection This was a period of 3 years. During this time Jesus pointed out how the Law was broader than they could have imagined-lust in the heart=adultery. Our only hope was the Cross.
3. New Testament: Jesus returns to heaven, He establishes the church and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Now, let’s place Peter’s denial into this time line. That would be in Time Period 2. Peter was confronted by his own inability to do the right thing. In fact, if one looks at the disciples, one can see that they all messed up in one way or the other.
Let’s head over to Step 3. The church is established and the gift of the Holy Spirit is given as a Comforter. as women and men who follow Jesus deal with the fact that they are simultaneously sinners and saints.
A set of rules to follow for the workings of the church is found in the Epistles. Certain things are disqualifies for leaders in the church. A rather difficult qualifier was *to be above reproach.* For 17 years, Feltner did not deal with his sin. Even now, his statement is underwhelming. He was not above reproach during this time even if he led a church.
And now a history lesson regarding the early church and denying Jesus…
Had Peter denied Jesus after the establishment of the church and during the awful persecutions, it is highly likely that he would not be able to lead the church. During this time, Christian were required to sign a paper (libellous) that claimed that they recognized the Roman leaders as Gods and would sacrifice to their gods. They were allowed to worship Jesus so long as they agreed to do so. If they didn’t sign this and follow through they were brought to the Coliseum and killed in the most atrocious of ways. Sometimes entire families were killed.
After the time of persecution (and in some of the in between times-these persecution waxed and waned) as the church gathered, there was a debate that those who caved and signed those papers should not be allowed back in the church because they denied Jesus. It was a time of pain in the Christian community. One thing is pretty clear. Had Peter denied Jesus to save his family from the Coliseum, he most likely would not have been accepted as a leader in the church.
My advice to those who like to play gotcha by taking a couple of verses out of context and using them to defend folks like Feltner is this. Carefully think through the Scripture’s timeline and apply it properly.
Good Lord, here we go again!! David, Paul, Peter!! Whew!
Dee, you do a great job instructing this person who should have already been instructed in an essential truth that David, Paul & Peter did not then have the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin and lead them to overcome it. Feltner doesn’t have that excuse … the Holy Spirit was around 17 years ago.
dee,
Dee, in your “timeline” discussion, you essentially present three revelations of God in Scripture. Great job!! God the Father was revealed in the Old Testament … Jesus was revealed in the Gospels … and the Holy Spirit was revealed in Acts and the Epistles (and to this day in the hearts of true believers). So many church folks just don’t get this … they are still worshiping the “Unknown God” so they take text out of context to support a pet theology or keep a disqualified pastor in the pulpit.
When a wayward pastor becomes remorseful and repents, as David … gives his life and his head to advance God’s Kingdom on Earth, as Paul … or goes to the Cross willingly in service to his Lord, as Peter … then he can drop their names.
“not all the allegations are true” (Wes Feltner)
Psychological trick … an appeal to the psyche, rather than the Spirit.
I’m almost in agreement here, Max, but you’ve missed off the greatest and most miraculous revelation of all: the final and perfect manifestation of God with us in the Form of the Scriptures. Indeed, I think a proper biblical understanding of the gospel points to the doctrine that “the holy spirit” never really existed; rather, this phrase is a metaphor used to stand in for the fullness of the Scriptures Which had, at that time, not yet been revealed.
>
Pretty sure he has manipulated her to believe whatever he tells her
Those who have experienced Him know that the Holy Spirit exists.
Thanks for ignoring the part where I said your facts are wrong proving that you’re about agenda over anything else.
Does it make it…better if he was only have sex with one of the teenagers from youth group he was manipulating into a relationship concurrent with the others (plus maybe his future wife?)?
Do not take anything I’ve said as a defense of anybody. I’m just someone who believes the #metoo has hit the point where it is doing more harm than good at this point and calling out Dee for being part of the problem.
That said, if she wants me to leave, it’s her space and I’ll respect that. Just delete my comments Dee. Else, if Dee wants me to explain (in too much detail) my opinions, I would be glad to do so.
*sigh*
I def don’t have the energy for this discussion.
Really? There are many more options than your two degrading ones here.
Bridget,
I do throw out the word ignorant too easily. I don’t think I realize the amount of negativity people have with that word. I do apologize to Dee. I mean it purely in the case of “are you not aware of your misinformation?”.
@Lea, I understand and do not mean in any way to dismiss the good the movement has caused for healing in many peoples lives and giving the courage to people to be able to speak up. It definitely has made men better understanding of how women think and feel and how their actions can hurt when they don’t mean to.
Speak for yourself, that beautiful Rabbi and God himself in human form (Jesus of Nazareth) was murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military, I had nothing to do with it.
?
!
Men know that using and abusing people (in the wide variety of ways covered under this phrase) hurts them. They aren’t children.
Your sin tell a different story.
Look up Aziz Ansari’s #metoo moment if you’re not aware. Let me know if I’m still wrong.
Chip, the church needs more men who will support victims of abuse at the hands of church leaders rather than lump them with a movement. When a child of God is abused, we should stand together … because, as one in Christ, it is #ustoo. More harm than good?! It is never wrong to do right, Chip.
Chip,
Or we could talk about the actual topic, which is this jerk not aziz ansari?
Aziz is one person and I suppose that’s the mildest thing you could think of the but the VAST majority of metoo reporting is actively harmful. Men need to think more about affirmative consent, and I think that’s what the Aziz thing was about. A lot of men DO push too hard, just trying to get a ‘yes’ whether it is what someone really wants or not. It would be 100% better if they didn’t do that? Is that something you’re a fan of?
And not for nothing but Aziz is literally he just had to do a few moments of thinking. Boo hoo. Obviously we should shut up the 1000s/millions of women who are sharing their stories of abuse for that *eyeroll*
Yes. You are wrong.
Max,
Well, quite. I was joking, of course, and I can’t pretend I wasn’t tempted to push it another step (along the lines of, people who think they’ve experienced the holy spirit have been deceived through the satanic power of satan, god can only speak through an anointed man of god expounding the Scriptures, etc etc etc). But I don’t want to cross the fine line!
Chip,
Eh I’ve got something in holding but I disagree with you, yes.
Maybe we could stay on topic.
Max,
“Ava, it’s increasingly clear that commitment to Christ in the American church is waning … in both pulpit and pew.”
+++++++++
…so,….what is commitment to Christ?
in pulpit and pew, to what degree is it commitment to christianity, and to what degree commitment to Christ?
truly, i don’t even know what commitment to Christ is.
judging by what i’ve observed, following a paul-inspired talmud means commitment to christ.
male headship means commitment to christ. (all the while such a person could be doing all manner of corrupt things)
women being sweetly unassertive and letting men make all the decisions is commitment to Christ.
being smiley and cheerful and going to church on Sundays means commitment to Christ.
oh, i could go on.
i can’t help but think that for my entire life, what i’ve witnessed and experienced is almost wholly commitment to an ideology.
Chip,
“Since we are already murderers for nailing our savior to a cross, I believe Pastors can be forgiven and restored after repentance.”
+++++++++++
it seems like you’re equating the egregiousness of someone having the audacity to be born with a grown man (who supposed to be above reproach, but who) deceives, tricks, manipulates multiple teen agers so he can use them for his own sexual gratification.
come, now.
A personal relationship with Christ, rather than commitment to religion … “Christ in me, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27) … “My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20)
You are missing the question of character. First of all, one out of three said there was no sex- you find that to be a substantial fact? Maybe he just hadn’t had time to seduce the one yet. But, sex or no sex, he proved himself to be a liar. Not someone who told one untruth to save someone’s feelings but a person who was living his life by lies. He had 3 girls and their parents convinced he was committing to marry each one. What does the Bible say about lying? What does it say about the importance of character? What does it say about the importance of character for a pastor or leader in the church?
By that logic, no one should be held accountable for anything. Do you really think this is a good idea or what God would want? What kind of a world would that create?
And let’s talk about repentance. What does that word mean to you? How do you know that someone has repented? Words are cheap and easy to say. It is childs’ play for a charismatic person to appear repentant. Who are you to judge the heart of another person enough to say ‘he has repented, I shall put him back into a position of trust’? And where is your responsibility to those he could hurt?
Isn’t it interesting how often the bad examples are pulled out of the Bible to support pastors? Our standards are so low.
Can you describe who is being harmed and how?
I don’t think calling someone to account for something they did is “harm”. No one has a right to commit sin and never be held to account.
There are a whole lot of men out there -the overwhelming majority of men, to be exact- who have no accusations of anything against them and no need to worry that they will be accused of anything. But those who have committed sin and have been called out for it want all men to fear and worry so that they can slink off without being held to account. Don’t fall for that.
I’m not saying there are never any false accusations, although it is extremely rare, it can happen. Most cases are acrimonious divorces and the rest are mentally ill individuals who have a long history of bizarre behavior. If you can’t discern between these kinds of situations, perhaps you should sit back and observe and learn more before making a stand.
Max,
Thank you!!
Finally, a Bible reference that actually fits the situation!
I think we are getting there. Take a look at this page on reddit called “Pastor Arrested.” I found this awhile ago. It is just a page where people post links to news articles about pastors that have been arrested (for any crime but sex crimes seem to be the most frequent). This is just a page maintained by contributors, not, by any means, any kind of a thorough resource.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PastorArrested/new/
Yes, it would wonderful if we had a blog series on Christlike pastors serving the Body of Christ without reproach. They are out there, but they don’t usually pop up in the mega-mania Christian Industrial Complex. There are many faithful pastors serving in obscurity loving and caring for the children of God entrusted to them. I praise God for them.
It’s enough to make Mr. Rogers cuss.
Max,
“what is commitment to Christ?”
“A personal relationship with Christ, rather than commitment to religion … “Christ in me, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27) … “My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20)”
++++++++++++++++
(so, i’m going to go on a bit, here. i’m afraid i’m in monologue mode)
i know these verses. i know them so well at one point i probably muttered them while talking in my sleep.
that was a long time ago.
i still relate to them, though.
i no longer feel quite the personal feeling of knowing this Jesus who in my mind’s eye looked like a cross between the image on the shroud of turin and kenny loggins (at age 33).
it’s more an understanding of the intelligent, kind force and presence that is God. it’s kind of impersonal, but with much respect.
even now (deeply jaded and deep in cynicism), the significance of these verses is very practical to me — where i end, God begins. God in me, I in God.
might sound silly, but it’s just like Wonder Woman as she flies fist-first through a rock mountain, and in preparation shortly before impact she says, “Hera help me!”. (except it’s God of Abraham Isaac & Jacob/Jesus/Holy Spirit, not Hera)
the rock mountain might be something seemingly mundane (like the heat of the “patience” moment. actually, i think the person who has learned patience is a spiritual giant.)
or the rock mountain might be courage and determination when things are dire.
or, if i was a scientist working on the mystery of a cure for X disease, it might be “help me to see it. show me. just lay it out for me, like a string of playing cards one by one turning over face-up.”
I’m in the habit of doing this. it’s sort of a business-transaction. and i thank God for it, in a matter-of-fact way.
am I committed to Christ?
I pray often, in an impersonal kind of way, like a business transaction (only because my emotion died some years ago.) I strive to be honest and kind. i don’t see the point of baptism or communion. i don’t go to church. i’ve always hated singing christian songs, so I don’t. i voted for hilary clinton, i think male headship is a crock o’ship and I affirm gay marriage.
am I still committed to Christ?
Wow, some high-level SBC bureaucrats have been working with this church. Roger ‘Sing’ Oldham was the interim pastor until July, then new guy at SBC HQ (Ed Upton, RonnieFloyd’s assistant) was dispatched?
https://fbct.org/sermon-audio
Sing Oldham was chief SBC spokesman and oversaw Baptist Press until recently:
https://brnow.org/News/October-2019/Healthier-culture-sought-at-SBC-Executive-Commit
https://baptistnews.com/article/caring-well-speaker-says-baptist-press-reported-abuse-disclosure-as-a-consensual-affair/#.Xcv0hlNlAew
RonnieFloyd lieutenant Ed Upton:
http://www.bpnews.net/52861/floyd-names-upton-as-assistant-to-the-president
…and yet you name-dropped Peter and compared Feltner to him, and called for his restoration based on a repentance for which we’ve yet to see any evidence. You also ignored the fact that, despite the seriousness of Peter’s sin, he wasn’t guilty of preying on Jesus’ sheep. That’s quite a different kind of offence from denying Him. The kind which, according to Jesus Himself, calls for a millstone necklace.
And this turned me off:
This assertion is seriously overblown. As a Christian, I accept that Jesus died as much for my sins as for those of the whole world. But to say that this makes me a murderer is going wrong in so many ways. Not least of all, it cheapens the heinous character of murder itself. After all, if even the nicest person on earth is guilty of murdering the Son of God, then murderers can’t be such bad people, now can they?
Jerome,
I am in awe of your news gathering!!
Chip,
You *believe* that the #metoo movement has hit a point in which it is doing more harm than good. Just like the rest of your comments, this is based on what you *believe* or better yet, what you *feel.* You have shows a lack of understanding about the historical aspects of stories, like Peter’s denial of Jesus. You throw it into a big fat bag titled *grace and forgiveness* and stick your hand in there and pull out your *awesome person of the day.*
I’m so glad you *believe* that a guy can have sex and’ or groom for sex 18 year old girls and then get away with it because you like him and *feel* he should be a pastor. That is the problem with many evangelical churches these days.
Chip-why don’t you start a blog and outline why you *feel* that Wes should be a pastor. While you’re at explain, explain why you think the #metoo movement is a bad thing. Then prove it with thoughtful exegesis of Scripture as opposed to screaming *David* *Peter* etc. and assume that you’ve now won in a lackluster game of *gotcha* in which you have merely proven that you have not had careful teaching by those pastors who are awesome even when they have sex with young girls.
Frankly, Wes Feltner is creepy and he has shown a decided lack of empathy for those who are asking for some thoughtful; repentance. Instead, all he does is keep repeating 17,17,17, 17…don’t blame me- I was a kid. If he was a school teacher, he would have been thrown out on his keister.
All the while promising all of them – and their parents – that he was pursuing marriage, not simply ‘dating’ for a good time. The guy was a lech of the grossest sort, which even non-christians would revile. And nothing in his past or the present demonstrates true remorse or any sort of repentance upon which worthy character might have been formed.
What does seem clear is he is a narcissist, a manipulator and a fraud – something that long term study proves rarely changes.
It’s worth emphasizing that David was not in a pastoral role (although he did write Psalm 23).
I think we need to go back to older terms of reference, though. David was a general and king but not in a modern sense. Today it is truly not normal for people in the military to have multiple wives, to off another military person in order to seize a wife, etc. Most kings today also do not behave in this way. So maybe we can call David an autocrat?
I was going to call that one out as well! The #metoo movement is not about informing men that they are insensitive. It is about bringing into the light serious abuse and scandalous mistreatment of women, usually for the sake of personal physical pleasure. ‘Gee, I’m so sorry. I didn’t realize how sensitive women are. Whodda thought lying, deceiving and three-timing would have bothered anyone? My bad.’
Max,
I suspect that the author of Hebrews would disagree with you and Dee, given that there are so many OT saints who died in faith and are listed in chapter 11. There lots of other places n the OT as well. You might need to adopt Nick’s position and cast Scriptures aside as well.
The “woke”TWW is fast becoming the “joke”TWW”. (Cue El Divo and “Time to say goodbye”)
Cheerio!
People would burst a blood vessel over that one, and yet this is exactly what much of official christendom teaches, and has always taught. This is exactly the sort of authoritarianism that leads to narcissistic spiritual abusers, who declare that when they speak, they speak for God. Or that some man, council or pack of velvet-clad Divines can tell you what to think and believe.
It is not limited to any denomination, nor is the Protestant church any more free from this error by not declaring a Pope. The moment any man asserts control over another’s right to think for himself, abuse has taken place. The ‘Church’ has kicked out the Holy Spirit more often than not.
A site of that sort would be an interesting addition to the blogosphere! I can envision a series of articles now: “Why Feltner Should Be A Pastor” … “Why Savage Should Be A Pastor” … “Why Hybels Should Be A Pastor” … “Why MacDonald Should Be A Pastor” … etc. etc.
The degree that followers go through to defend/justify bad-boy-preacher transgressions and campaign for a restoration to ministry is unbelievable. Actors would have no stage if it weren’t for an idolatrous audience willing to buy a ticket to the show. Yep, it would be good for the rest of Christendom to see a blog like this, to get inside the mind of folks who rally behind unrepentant ministers and their failed ministries. It would also provide another outlet for victims to speak, for believers to hear their heartache of abuse and betrayal at the hands of church leaders, while informing/warning the Body of Christ to be on the alert within their own churches (a job that TWW is doing quite well).
The exposed truth is: “preying upon vulnerable people”…is what MANY 501c3 church establishments have become. Coverup has evidently also become second nature. The public evidence is becoming quite overwhelming. So is the multitude of damnage. A gathered group of devout Christian believers is no longer a safe place to be? So sad.
If the Holy Spirit was lifted out of the American “Church”, 95% of the stuff would still go on.
Wow. Couldn’t have said it better.
Years ago I judged my now deceased sister because she didn’t go to church. As if her gentle, gracious treatment of all she came into contact with didn’t count one iota. She was Chistlike in her genuine compassion for all mankind, yet I condemneded her lack of commitment to an institution as a lack of loving God. Sorry sister; you had it right all along.
Max,
You forgot potty mouth, throw them under the bus, Driscoll!
dee,
Or had Wes been an officer in the Military for conduct unbecoming. You can count on the good old boys in the SBC covering for each other until enough people know and then one of them must become a sacrifical sheep, all the while the whole lot of them were covering. Don Moore was not just some country preacher in Indiana. He had led the Indiana Baptist Convention a few years before this incident as the President and Interim Executive Director so he should have known better, and indeed he did know better but choose to cover the incident up. Now he said he did this for the sake of these two young women, and of course, the church, but I believe he was covering his own “six”. His job, reputation, and comfort took the front seat. Now, I could be wrong but I think much of these sex abuse issues are known (the public ones all had people who knew and didn’t act), but somebody or many somebody’s are just more interested in their career, paycheck, reputation, and comfort. Honestly, while those reasons are more selfish and self-serving, it’s really not much better when the cover-up includes “I didn’t want to hurt the cause of Christ or the church.” Now how has this logic (spiritual discernment, NOT) worked out? They are leaving you with an empty room speaking to yourself. Last one alive, please turn out the lights.
Talk about another sorely abused concept!
My sin makes me a sinner in need of a savior, not a murderer of Jesus Christ. I would have been hopeless without the cross, but I did not nail Jesus to the cross.
Oh, but he’s already been restored to ministry! He made an unrepentant comeback in Arizona and is doing quite well. I saw him on a Christian TV program just yesterday and he has preached several times at a nearby Assembly of God church. The potty-mouth from Seattle was down but not out.
Good work, Jerome. What’s behind this high level input? Sounds like there might be more to come.
From the Spiritual Sounding Board:
“If he wanted to date, he should have dated young adults in which there was an equal relationship – not one in which he was over them in authority.”
“Even now, Pastor Wes Feltner is abusing his position of authority by publicly shaming the women and twisting the Bible in order to control and harm.”
“This is not about apologizing and moving on. This is about shining the light on clergy sexual misconduct and facing the appropriate consequences.”
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2019/11/11/dissecting-victim-oops-pastor-wes-feltners-public-statement/
TS00,
Anyone ever heard of Watergate? It wasn’t the initial crime that took down Nixon, but the conspiracy to cover it up. Sounds like SBC is sending out the troops to cover up any inconvenient truths that might bubble up. A study of recent reassignments might prove interesting. How bout it, Jerome?
elastigirl,
I agree with respect to not just “ideology” but also “behavior”… except has we see over and over again, behavior fro pew peons, not the ruling elect. This WF would not survive in my secular world..
Feltner is/was a rising star in SBC, “pastor” of one of the fastest growing churches in America – an improved way of doing church, the new model. SBC’s high level folks have a stake in this; SBC clergy abuse has media attention and the big boys need to have some oversight on how this one is handled. However, it doesn’t get any more high level in SBC than Al Mohler and he has already spoken by terminating Feltner’s association with SBTS (I’m sure that the Berean Baptist elders have seriously considered Mohler’s action).
Max,
And do not forget, numbers matter to these “leaders”…. the “fastest growing church” covers over a multitude of sins….. literally
I have seen it first hand, for decades
“Too big to fail” only lasts for a season … as Hybels and MacDonald found out. SBC leaders need to realize that the Body of Christ (the real one) is more concerned about Christlikeness in the pulpit, rather than an ability to produce more nickels and noses.
My sins are my own, they are not transferable (Ezekiel 18:20) to anyone else’s account.
So I stand on my original comment, I had nothing to do with the arrest and murder of Jesus of Nazareth.
“Feltner ‘resigned’ but was allowed to move on to another church without any known hindrances from the church.” http://www.broughttothelight.org/
This is getting old. Covering for, staying silent about abuse, and passing disqualified/unrepentant pastors through the system needs to stop!
State regulated pastoral licenses are not possible under the US Constitution. So running them out on a social media thunderstruck rail has become an absolute necessity…get um shakin at the knees…
dee,
Three key issues in diagnosis of a sexual abuser or a sexual offender:
1. Lack of empathy.
2. Lack of ability to take responsibility for one’s own actions.
3. The use of “faulty” or distorted thinking patterns to excuse one’s actions.
Luckyforward,
Frankly, Wes Feltner is creepy and he has shown a decided lack of empathy for those who are asking for some thoughtful; repentance. Instead, all he does is keep repeating 17,17,17, 17…don’t blame me- I was a kid. If he was a school teacher, he would have been thrown out on his keister.
The quoted text to explain my comment did not make it first time . . . sorry
I’ve been a part of his current church for the last 5 years. His teaching and preaching have had a profound and positive effect in our community.
However
I am crushed by the accusations and the response. How quick some are to forgive him and continue to lash out at the sins of others that are “obvious”. Time rationalities in time past. How some applauded the video. And I found nothing repentant. He also claimed in the video how he removed himself from consideration from the other position- either the TN church is lying or he his. I found his remarks arrogant. Lastly, the infusion of music in his talk seemed emotionally manipulative as if a Jerry’s kids video. So disappointed in what has been built will not be the same. And I hope and want to believe nothing else will surface.
This is their SOP. As the guy as SBC Voices said, if you ‘mess up’ with the youth you will be quietly moved away and apparently get hooked up with other jobs and great references, assuming any of these yahoos bother with references.
“As soon as he (Pastor Don Moore, FBC-Evansville, at the time) found out, he said he fired Feltner and gave him a few weeks worth of salary to put toward counseling. Feltner eventually removed Moore’s name from his resume, Moore said.”
https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-webb/2019/11/10/evansville-women-who-made-pastoral-abuse-claim-feel-shocked-empowered/2531955001/
As a former HR person, this is why you reference check previous jobs and supervisors, not just who they listed. Also ‘why did they separate from their last job’ is relevant information.
Whoops! Don’t need that reference on my resume!!
Recommendations for Pastor Search Committees (I served on three during my SBC tenure): (1) don’t rely only on references provided by a candidate – dig deeper with longtime church members in addition to church leaders, (2) contact ALL previous churches where the candidate served, (3) prod the candidate on any missing years during his ministry career.
I apologize to everyone for my last meltdown.
Mr. Feltner, maybe not a pedophile, but he’s using the same playbook. He asked each 18 year old to keep their relationships secret. And, he knew enough to make sure they were 18 years of age so there would be no legal blowback.
Tom Likus, the LA radio host of a show that tried to teach men to get “lucky” with women even had a cutoff age of 21 years old.
This is interesting. I could never figure out what their angle was on that. I am quite familiar with their disdain for missions and evangelism (having studied missions at SEBTS while the takeover happened), but the social justice thing was a puzzle to me. I wondered if it was just an attempt to get more young men in and signing covenants before they knew what the New Cals were really about (which also may be true).
I wholly agree with this.
I’ve had people fussing at me recently for not going to church, but I think this defines why. God isn’t at the center of the churches I find. Ideology and the power of men are.
Mark R,
The issue with social justice issues is that it’s hard to tell where in scripture was the person motivated to tackle what the person sees as a problem and what comes from the culture.
Has anyone taking on an issue, that is of the body of Christ, used this to evangelize to non-Christians?
John MacArthur has said the U.S. never was a Christian nation, taking his dissecting of subjects to infinity. He glossed over the Quakers and the Baptist.
This happens all the time in mainline churches–food pantries, shelters, etc
Macarthur seems to define social justice vary narrowly, though, and then accuses anyone of supporting social justice with being liberal and non-Christian. I think it’s a much wider topic than reparations and gender roles and includes simple helping your neighbor.
It’s the difference between talking at someone, or actually *living* as a christian who cares for others. One is a FAR better witness than the other, imo.
People like MacArthur are anti-evanglists. For all they love to tell women to quietly witness to their husbands through their behavior (which is what paul was talking about not DV!) that’s what we should really be doing. Calling it ‘social justice’ for good or for ill is just marketing. Working to help people, working towards treating people as we would prefer to be treated? This is basic christian values. Or should be.
Brian,
Look at the history of Christian missions from William Carey onward-fighting the caste system in India, fighting against slavery in England and the US, establishing schools and hospitals all over the world, child sponsorship projects via World Vision and Compassion International. That’s a whole lot of social work and evangelizing going on at the same time, in the name of Jesus.
Person going by Wow
If you want to comment with a real comment and not just name calling we welcome you. But just ranting and calling names, nope.
But we do get to add a new item to our list of what Dee has been called.
“creepy old lady Mrs. Cravitz”
Anyway please read the “Click here for our commenting rules” before you type another comment.
GBTC
David,
“but somebody or many somebody’s are just more interested in their career, paycheck, reputation, and comfort. Honestly, while those reasons are more selfish and self-serving, it’s really not much better when the cover-up includes “I didn’t want to hurt the cause of Christ or the church.””
+++++++++++++++++
well, it’s holding Jesus up as a divine-human shield to protect himself.
i seem to remember ‘bin liner’, the terrorist top-dog himself, doing similar, only with woman as human shields to protect himself.
when christian leaders do this with Jesus, it sounds so gospelly good. objectivity shows how despicable it is.
amazing, how eroded objectivity is in christian culture.
Dan,
Very well stated!
In what way does persons having faith at that time conflict with the revelation of God not yet being completed? I’m not following your reasoning.
Interestingly, if you use the millenial definition for “hook up” it makes your comment even more applicable…
I’ve seen the same thing in all the churches I’ve attended. Bringing in the numbers is of the highest value. The interesting thing, to me, is that the people who are skilled at bringing in the numbers often seem to not be great people. Maybe there is a lesson there, I don’t know.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
The use of roses to manipulate behavior, did you know of someone that did this? Not to be a Duggy Downer, anything can be used as a leverage to ensnare someone.
Brian,
In one of the abused women’s stories, WF taught a “purity culture” class and handed out Roses to the the youth in the youth group he was pastoring. One of the girls he handed a Rose to was one that he was secretly “not being pure with”, and jetting her off to Vegas for some R&R..
How someone could do this, in front of the church, is…..
I’m so sorry. I think that many of us who comment here were, at one point, in your shoes. It’s so hard to reconcile what seemed to be evidence of spiritual blessing with subsequent evidence that people and things were not what they seemed, after all. I expect more things will surface (I read yesterday of a mother involved with the youth group at the time who has come forward to corroborate the women’s stories) and things will probably not be the same again, but the important thing is just to follow where the truth leads and trust in God, not institutions or persons.
What is the overall view of social justice among evangelicals? Some seem very opposed to it, like maybe they see it as a competitor to what they are selling. The very idea of seeking to make the world a better place for everyone (instead of just a more “Christian” place) seems morally wrong to them. Maybe they think the world deserves to suffer? I wondered if it is just because they have a confusion between the spiritual and political, and see social justice as the province of their political opposites?
Max,
elastigirl,
Sorry, Max — this was an unfair question to ask. kind of like asking my husband, “How do you like my new haircut?!?”
his only possible option: “i love it.”
from Tabernacle Baptist, Decatur, Illinois:
https://www.tbc.church/wes-feltner-statement/
“Tabernacle Baptist Church is saddened by the reports of pastoral abuse that are being reported by multiple news outlets that involve a former Senior Pastor of our church. Wesley Feltner served as Senior Pastor at Tabernacle Baptist Church from August 2008 to November 2013.”
“The hiring process of Pastor Feltner…due diligence was used in exploring his moral character through given references with no improprieties being found.”
“our personnel team has no knowledge of any allegations brought against him during his tenure as pastor…we have set up an internal hotline for members and attenders of TBC. This hotline will connect people with a female chaplain”
flashback to 2008 interview that belies Feltner’s current representations:
https://herald-review.com/lifestyles/tabernacle-baptist-church-s-new-pastor-has-vision-rooted-in/article_b6143132-b1f7-5af6-bf90-2c32e4723131.html
Tabernacle Baptist Church’s new pastor…On Sunday, the Rev. Wes Feltner preached his first sermon as senior pastor at Tabernacle Baptist Church…which has more than 1,200 members.”
“while getting settled in to his office at the $6 million church facility built six years ago…[Feltner noted he’d] ‘been in the ministry for 12 years, a lot of men my age are just now getting out of seminary with no experience’.”
“While attending Murray State University in Kentucky, he worked as a pastor…He did the same thing after transferring to the University of North Carolina at Charlotte…He has completed his master’s of divinity degree at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and he is close to finishing his dissertation”
Ugh…another Bible story these sort like to cite: chaste Joseph & evil temptress Mrs. Potiphar?…
2012 Illinois Southern Baptist state convention Pastors Conference:
https://ib2news.org/2012/11/13/2012-ibsa-pastors-conference-begins/
“DECATUR, Ill. | Pastor Wes Feltner of Tabernacle Baptist Church kicked off the annual IBSA Pastors’ Conference with a message…on the life of Joseph, who was…wrongly accused”
“‘I daresay many of us can relate to that’…Feltner said.”
[Feltner was then chosen as President Elect of the Illinois Pastors Conference, but left for Minnesota within the year]
Obviously they should have checked more than ‘given’ references but I’m now wondering if Moore (?) was on that list at the time.
Honestly this sounds like another good reason for some form of licensure or ordination with a central list of complaints. Just like doctors. So you know what you’re getting.
Yikes.
Jerome,
Experience is important until it’s not. During this whole debacle, Wes claimed he was a young youth worker, but when trying to go from a youth leader to Senior Pastor, he thought of every position that he could think of and called himself Pastor. You can’t have it both ways. Given what Wes said, by the time this incident happened, he had been a pastor for 6 years, or is that a youth worker? It’s like Don Moore (Senior Pastor in the 2002 event) was on his resume and then he was not? How many people here out an individual that “fired” them as a character/work reference??? Not. Apparently, they both had a deal to cover each other.
By golly, you’re completely right! I should never ever judge a pastor … I have unrepentantly taken 11 items into the 10 items or less checkout line and last night I brazenly stopped in the no stopping fire lane when dropped my wife at Zumba….sob…how can I look at myself in mirror.
All of us should just forgive Wes and Andy and Driscoll and Pol Pot
Especially you Muff… I’ll bet you download movies without paying for them…but if Paramount won’t forgive you then God will….
from Oak Park Baptist (Jeffersonville, IN):
https://www.oakparkbaptist.com/the-pastors-blog/post/statement-on-wesley-leon-feltner
“Recently, the Elders were informed of the allegations brought against former youth pastor, Wesley Leon Feltner. Feltner served on the pastoral staff approximately from 2003–2007.”
“Feltner’s tenure did not overlap with any of the current pastoral leadership or staff. Thus, we have no personal knowledge of the details surrounding the process of his hiring. If, however, anyone has knowledge of this…please do not hesitate to contact us.”
“We are also unaware of any reports of abuse occurring while Feltner was on staff at OPBC.”
and check out the topics of Wes’s “Mind of a Pastor” blog:
http://tbcdecatur.blogspot.com/2010/?m=0
elastigirl,
Your husband is a wise man 🙂
Jerome,
OH my Jerome, that first one!
“hen we think of Mary we often think of her as a soft-spoken woman with a blanket over her head.”
???!!! Is he a literal CHILD. What?
At the church where Dee and I were at over 10 years ago where the person was arrested for taking sexual liberties with minor boys, he and all the other college aged folks working a the church had been called “interns”.
As soon as he was arrested he became a “volunteer”.
No, as soon as he was arrested he always had been a volunteer. ALWAYS HAD BEEN.
To remember anything different is doubleplusungoodthink.
And (as studies of same-sex pedos found out) pre-pubescent boys are not really male so it isn’t really HOMOSEXUAL. (Yes, that is the rationale why same-sex pedos self-identify as straight.)
St Mary?
The Blessed Virgin?
Theotokos?
What is this ManaGAWD using for Reality?
Medieval artistic conventions?
doublethink, comrade, doubleplusdoublethink.
Yes on all counts, Siteseer.
One additional reason:
If you’re into Rapture Eschatology (i.e. the Evangelical/Nondenom default, Hal Lindsay and Left Behind), everything has to get worse and worse to fulfill End Times Prophecy. Up to taking God’s Purpose into your own hands and “Imminentizing the Eschaton” (i.e. Jump-starting Armageddon) to help the process along by forcing things to get worse. (What would God ever do without Faithful ME? If God Only Knew What Was REALLY Going On…)
A BLANKET HUG!!! That’s what he thinks of first. I just.
To all you inquiring minds at TWW. Below is a link that allows you to download the Ph.D. thesis of graduates of SBTS. Guess who’s thesis you can find? Further, for those of you that look it up, look at his VITA. The time lines do not match others that have been posted here and other web sites…
https://repository.sbts.edu/handle/10392/2643
Steve Campen,
Steve, I am truly sorry for your disappointment. I also commend you for being willing to acknowledge issues that might be easier to deny. I experienced betrayal at the hands of a pastor I loved, trusted and served along side for many years. It was very painful. I pray that you will find peace and comfort, and that God might use you to help others who are stunned and/or confused. God’s concern is with the well-being of his children, not with the institution-building of men.
LOL. But seriously, how many years did I go to churches full of that sort of thinking? You consider yourself oh, so holy, because of what you didn’t do, then even holier for unquestioningly overlooking the serious, life-shattering crimes of a pastor who sexually or spiritually abuses others.
Institutional Christianity is simply another religion – and often not a very good one. Where are the earnest souls who just want to live honest, meaningful lives and take seriously Jesus’ command to love others? I’ve given up seeking them in churches. I’m sure many are there, but they are seduced into giving up their freedom to follow the Spirit by submitting to The Law of the institution.
None of the people saying ‘don’t judge a pastor’ have a problem judging the decisions of any teenage girl in the vicinity.
A family friend said this: “When Wes was being considered by Oak Park Baptist Church in Jeffersonville, IN, I, along with a few others, called and shared the truth. They turned a deaf ear.”
Interesting. She also explains how he was asking permission while also dating multiple people. Spoiler alert, he just lied to the parents and said he and his ‘public gf’ were broken up!
http://www.broughttothelight.org/barbara-doss-witness-statement/
Lea,
But don’t forget, it is fine for pastors to judge pew sitters, AND all other flavors of Christianity! How many times have we all heard about how other flavors are really bad, or not even Christian…and if we pew sitters don’t do X, Y and Z, we are @#$&
TS00,
“Where are the earnest souls who just want to live honest, meaningful lives and take seriously Jesus’ command to love others?”
++++++++++++++
right here (at least, i think so)
i think i’ll answer the question no one could possibly answer – i’m committed to Christ (in all practicality, forms and formulas aside)
(although i think of it in different language)
Wow! You made quite a leap there and then left with a condescending comment. You must feel so much better about yourself than most, in your estimation.
His youth group Christmas play?
Bridget,
I can’t always tell with Lowlandseer, but it may be that he was joking. (It’s not always easy to tell whether I’m joking either, to be fair.) I believe in the necessity of scripture, but not in the sufficiency of scripture. That is widely conflated with the rejection of scripture, of course.
If indeed Lowlandseer were to say goodbye – all joking and frivolity aside here – it would be a sad loss here, to my mind. I’m autistic, and therefore a little sheight at judging character (online or IRL) but I believe his occasional criticisms of me are nothing if not honest; and they always force me to think. This is no bad thing.
I totally understand when you are joking, Nick. Not so with Lowlandseer. Sometimes he seems like two different people and doesnt explain himself.
I think he was off the mark here. He seems to accuse both Dee and Max of completely ignoring the OT and making some claim that no one in the OT believed in God. They didn’t say that.
He also claims you have “cast scripture aside.” You haven’t as you explained above. I view scripture much like you. It has a purpose, to point us to Jesus Christ, but scripture is not God and does not replace him. It’s just not on the same plain with God and I don’t worship it. You and I both know that this view causes great strife in many circles, although I don’t understand why.
If Lowlandseer meant otherwise, he can let us know, but his comment came across pretty harsh and mockingly to me.
My attorneys are negotiating a plea deal with Feds as we speak…
chrrypi,
the wives, I’m afraid, are very much a part of this story – there are times I wish TWW would open a tag / channel for these enablers, who play a dual role – both victim and victimizer (if for no other reason than a sin of omission). In my evangelical college were aware of the ‘third generation pastor’s wife’ aspirants. And pastors, recall, are adept – gifted – at making the unbelievable believable, so add this to the list of abuses.
d4v1d,
Th aspirants are working on their MRS degree (humor)?
There is nothing that I said that is not Biblical. The Old Testament saints. were not continuously indwell by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean that they weren’t saved but were saved by the work of Jesus on the Cross that would come.
Why don’t you actually explain why you believe that I am rejecting Scripture since Scripture is very important to me. I am in a couple of Bible studies, I have and continue to read books on theology and Scripture that are accepted by conservative Christians, and when I have a question on difficult issues, I go to my pastors to ak them.
So, do me the honor of explaining how I’ve become woke and have apparently disregarded the faith in the meantime. That is quite hurtful and you should od what I do. Outline your disagreement which lead you to believe that I’ve left the reservation.
Nick Bulbeck,
I love listening to you as well. The only problem with you that I have observed is that you put haggis on a perfectly good burger!
Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. My husband described her as a “pawn” in our situation. She was someone I had respected and genuinely liked, and it was surreal to see how completely her discernment (which I’d seen displayed many times before in a women’s group) just completely shut off when it came to her husband’s actions.
Alternately they were told, like Jane Eyre yea old 200years ago, that they could not do anything in ministry unless married to a minister. Then they can be a ‘ministers wife’ which is basically a pastor in itself without the glory and all that is allowed to women. The solution here is to change the system, not shame the women operating within it, imo.
I don’t know what his wife is thinking but I feel sorry for her.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I am going to look into the timeline situation. Thank you for pointing it out. I always get concerned when I see discrepancies in time line sinvolving employment, school, etc. It usually means there is more to the story.
The Minneapolis local paper finally picked up the story last night http://www.startribune.com/burnsville-church-investigating-charges-that-pastor-had-inappropriate-sexual-relationship-with-two-teenage-women-years-ago/564956002/
dee,
The content is quite interesting/enlightening as well…
SiteSeer: What is the overall view of social justice among evangelicals? Some seem very opposed to it, like maybe they see it as a competitor to what they are selling. The very idea of seeking to make the world a better place for everyone (instead of just a more “Christian” place) seems morally wrong to them. Maybe they think the world deserves to suffer? I wondered if it is just because they have a confusion between the spiritual and political, and see social justice as the province of their political opposites?
Based on my experience, evangelicals haven’t had a problem supporting ministries that were doing community-related work. I’ve attended conservative SBC churches which participated in area food pantries, supported pro-life crisis pregnancy centers, and of course right now is the Operation Christmas Child shoebox drive of Samaritan’s Purse. But it is always done with the intent of evangelism, sharing the Gospel with clients. What evangelicals oppose is what they see in the mainline churches: those ministries REPLACING evangelical efforts.
Regarding social justice, the mainline churches and the New Calvinists come to the same conclusion yet from opposite bases: the mainliners believe it to be more important than evangelism as they generally don’t believe in Hell (or limit it to only the most wicked of the wicked, while the New Calvinists believe it to be more important as they generally believe God has already decided who will be in Heaven and who won’t.
That description better fits Fundamentalism, since community ministries require working with churches of other denominations and Fundamentalism teaches “separation from the world” (defined as “churches that aren’t fundamentalist and a lot of those that are but we don’t agree with them”.
This seems weirdly judgmental though? You’re telling people that they’re doing the right things but the wrong way so it doesn’t count.
If I need a cup of soup and a blanket, I need them and it doesn’t matter what the motivations are for people giving them to me. I don’t see how these ministries are replacing evangelical efforts in any way.
I think you’re really misunderstanding the reasons people do ministries here. It has nothing to do with hell.
Stuck in Mrs. Dee Cravitz” blog curtain hopper?
Pastorial Clowns to the left of me,
501c3 Jokers to the right,
here I am, Stuck in the middle with you, dee…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqrfXsDshqg&app=desktop
Tricky, because the term “evangelicals” is broader even than a fair few evangelicals would admit – that is to say, people whom I’ve known personally and who self-identify as evangelicals.
I think the first thing to remember is that, in all matters of true christian belief, there are only two possible alternatives, both infinitely narrow and separated by an unbridgeable chasm. For instance, on the Bible: everyone who has ever lived falls into one of two categories. Either they believe the Bible not only is God, but in fact transcends and is greater than “god” – OR they utterly reject scripture and want to exalt themselves above God. If you don’t fit one of those categories, then by definition you must be in the other one.
The same is true of “social justice”. You are either a hardcore, stone-hearted atheist liberal who wants to comfort people’s flesh in the short term in order to condemn them to hell for eternity, OR you think we should cajole everyone (apart from gay homosexuals) into praying the sinner’s prayer and then annihilating the entire planet (apart from unborn babies) in a nucular holocaust so that everyone (apart from cathlics) can go_to_heaven.
Actually, of course, both the above paragraphs are drivel. But I only think that because I’ve been deceived by the stannic power of stan into thinking that God didn’t really say, much less mean, anything at all. Oh, and that there’s no such thing as truth.
The previous paragraph, of course, is drivel. But I only think that because… … … And so on, back to the creation.
It’s getting late here in Blighty. But IHTIH.
NickyB, Oh, and that there’s no such thing as complacency…
(Grin)
That is the implication here in a lot of this, isn’t it? I excuse my toddler of certain behaviors because, as I tell my preschooler, “She’s still learning.” And then I train her in the more appropriate responses. But Mr. Feltner and others of his type are stuck in a toddler mentality of entitlement and freedom from responsibility that is frankly embarrassing in men of their age.
More than embarrassing, because their temper tantrums are so much more destructive.
As I overheard a mature mother once say upon observing some unruly behavior, “Where is that child’s mother?”
A religious fellowship can be earnestly started by any devout Christian sincere in their faith and trusting in Jesus. No degree nor ordination is required. An aptitude of prayer, and a sincere desire to understand and follow the scriptures is helpful. Hope in nothing less the Jesus Christ and his righteousness is a necessesity. Rely on it and him today. ATB Sòpy The prayer of a righteous person Availeth much…
Yes, a seminary degree is highly overrated. God calls whom He wills. Some of the best Christian preachers/teachers I have known in my 70+ years as a believer have been layfolk (both men and women). Their secret: spending time with Jesus through disciplined Bible study and prayer lives, taught by the Holy Spirit not man.