40 Years Are Like Yesterday to Me: A Story About Confronting Abuse When an Alleged Teen Molester Became a Pastor in the Church of the Brethren

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“Childhood should be carefree, playing in the sun; not living a nightmare in the darkness of the soul.” ― Dave Pelzer, A Child Called “It”


The purpose of this post is to show the bravery of one victim who wants to protect other children from experiencing the trauma she endure as a child.

Since the alleged abuser was a teen when this happened, I am redacting his name and the name of the local church in which he serves.

Letter sent to The Church of the Brethren.

Note: Susan was 10-11 years old and her abuser was 15-16 years old. Here’s what happened.

The following letter was sent to a local Church of the Brethren where the alleged abuser now serves as a pastor. This letter was then forwarded on to William Wenger who is the District Executive for the Western PA Church of the Brethren.  According to the local church, the District is the appropriate authority to deal with accusations of this nature. For those of you unfamiliar with this denomination, here is a link to their denominations “about us” page.

I have left the letter largely intact with some minor changes to make the letter understandable to those unfamiliar with the situation.

September 25, 2018
 To all this concerns, especially parents of children,
 My name is Susan M. Ankney and I have recently learned thru a family social media group that you have a new ordained preacher,**********  I am compelled to inform all members of your church my personal experience with **** so proper procedures can be made to protect/prevent all kids from the same experience.   Feb. 19, 1977 is when his dad had passed it is also the time frame of my abuse by **** and my age would have been 10-11.  His mother and my mother are sisters and after my uncle’s passing, my mom had spent much time with ****mom.(ed: **** was Susan’s first cousin.)
 I’d be left to be babysat as our moms did whatever they did. First time of the abuse, was when they lived on a farm and I was exploring the barn.  I was told not to go in the barn. ****  approached me in the barn saying don’t be scared I’m not going to tell, do you want to play Doctor? We did with normal kid issues, then **** wanted me to be the doctor.
He walked away and came back with his pants down saying his penis was hurt.  My face must have been horrid as he asked you never seen a penis?  Do you want to touch it?  NO NO!  Well how can you fix it if you don’t touch it?  I started to walk away and **** said  “If you don’t do what I say I’m going to have to tell that you were in the barn.”  Confused, scared, sick I went back and did everything **** told me to do.  Each time after when babysitting **** used the same tactic if you don’t go into the barn and do as I say I’ll have to tell that you don’t listen and were bad.
In time they moved to away and **** had just got his (driving) license, not sure how old he was when he got his license. His mom was so proud that he got his license and wanted him to pick us up and he took our mothers somewhere. Afterward he took me to the a junk yard. This was the first he penetrated me in rape.  There were not many times after this as I begged my mom that I was old enough to be alone and promised I’d be good.
This information is to protect any kids today from the same abuse **** is capable of.  Had I never seen the post made by his wife (ed. Susan saw a post on Facebook by **** current wife) I may of never spoke up. However knowing what **** is capable of and his new role (ed: pastor of a church) and him being totally exposed to kids, I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t speak up and another was harmed that could have been prevented.  I am doing my part and this letter is being forwarded to others to show I’ve done my part, the rest is up to you.
Jimmy Hinton does seminars to help churches identify and prevent abuse within their own church.  I encourage you to reach out to him for guidance on this matter.  JimmyHinton.org
Sincerely, with children’s welfare in mind,
Susan M. Ankney

My observations of the letter

  • It is odd to see a teen boy (15-16) take an interest in a 10-11 child. They are more usually noticing girls their own age at this time. This is NOT a situation in which two teen kids on a date got carried away.
  • It is also odd that he would take an interest in a close family relation: first cousin.
  • He was older than her and there is a power dynamic involved. She was not to be in the barn so he held that over her head. He told her not to talk about it. He continued to put himself into situations in which he would be alone with her which would point to his intent to continue this behavior.
  • I have some doubts about this being a *first time* for the alleged abuser. It is possible that he had developed a paraphilia. If so, unless it is treated, there can be lifelong implications.
  • Susan stated her purpose in this letter. She wishes to protect other children. In other words, her intent is not malicious.

Can a teen be a molester?

I have included just one article in this section but read about 10 others. Although there is some disagreement about the effectiveness of treatment and recidivism, all articles agree that teens molest and, in particular, teens who show interest in a much younger child (like in this case) may have developed a serious problem. Juvenile Sex Offenders: When Your Teenager Is the Offender.

Sexual interest in much younger teens or even younger children is a red flag, says Ballantyne.

The concern here is not with typical teenage romances, even if there is some age difference or one party is under the age of consent (which is at least 16 in every state). It’s more about age differences that suggest a developmental and power differential, like a 16-year-old showing interest in a 12-year-old.

“That would send up red flags,” says Ballantyne. “For one thing, if there is any follow-through, that is clearly illegal. If we’re talking about a 16-year-old and a 12-year-old, that’s a really concerning age span.

“Those who feel powerless [in other areas of their lives] may try to gain power in ways that are not acceptable, and included in that would be sexual activity with somebody much younger.”

How did the local church respond?

Susan first sent the above letter to a local church. I made two phone calls to the District office stating my intent to write about this situation. They have not responded so I am going ahead since I am in possession of some emails that seem to indicate their thinking on the matter.

The first email she received was from a local pastor. I have highlighted statements of particular interest to me.

—– Forwarded Message —–
From: Susan Ankney
To: jimmyhinton79@gmail.com <jimmyhinton79@gmail.com> (ed. Susan scent this copy to Jimmy Hinton)
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 9:10:05 PM EST
Subject: Fw: With concern and seriousness—– Forwarded Message —–

To: Susan Ankney
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 8:44:47 AM MDT
Subject: With concern and seriousness

Susan,

I have discussed this with the Chairman of our Ministry commission and It is with a heavy heart that we respond to your email from last night. We are very sorry for any pain that this has caused you and we will keep you in our prayers as we work through this situation. After a night, and morning of thought and prayer, we are compelled to try and find a direction that will be best for all those involved. I understand that this happened when you were both very young and according to your letter, was more than 40 years ago. Since we were unaware of any behavior such as this, it comes as a bit of shock, but also because of the amount of time that has lapsed, it also begs the question as to whether this was something that happened a long time ago, or is it something that has continued throughout his life? We have no knowledge of any other incidents as nobody else has come forward so we feel it is important to find that out. We want to be clear that we are not going to try and minimize what has happened but we also are obligated to keep it in perspective as well.

Before we come to Jesus, there are many things that we could all be ashamed of and surely regret that we have done. The question is, does this disqualify this person to serve as a pastor or hold any positions in the church? More importantly, is this person a danger to children? That is the accusation that was made and that is a very serious one at that! As you stated in your letter and your email, you want to make sure everyone knows about this and if it is truly in the interest of protecting children because there is imminent danger,  we will shout it from the rooftops. However, we have to be very careful because it would be just as detrimental if this was an isolated incident and never happened again. It is very difficult to deal with these types of situations because a mans life and reputation are at stake. If he has a pattern of behavior as an adult, as he did as a child or youth, that is something that cannot be ignored or accepted. If this is something that happened as a minor, and did not become a lifestyle, to ruin his reputation and damage his ministry would be just as wrong.

In the interest of fairness, we will be discussing this with **** and we would also like the opportunity to meet in person with you as well. Again, we can’t stress enough the seriousness of this and for the protection of your own reputation and privacy, we would urge you to limit your exposure of this until we have a chance to meet with everyone involved. If we feel in anyway that he could be a danger to anyone, we will immediately inform the District Executive and anyone else that needs to get involved at that point.

One only has to turn on the news to see where so called “men of the cloth” abuse their position to take advantage of children. We need to be certain that is the case before we make that accusation and we can assure you that if that is found to be the case, we will approach it with zero tolerance and we will do everything in our power to have him removed as an ordained minister for the Church of the Brethren. On the other hand, in fairness to all, if we were to remove every pastor or church servant who did something in their youth they are ashamed of or regret, we would probably have no ministers at all. Praise God for Jesus who gives us a new life when we turn ours over to him!

We will look forward to your immediate response.

Pastor

My observations on the local email: Not so good.

  • He notes that 40 years have passed. The passage of 40 years doesn’t make this any less of a crime. It is a crime that cannot be prosecuted due to the Statute of Limitations. Is this pastor posing a question as to why she took so long to report this? I don’t know but as an advocate for victims I can assure him that many people live a life time before reporting this. I recently saw a video of a 79 Y.O. man in the UK, speaking for the first time of the sexual abuse he endured as a child in a boarding school. He cried so hard he could barely speak.
  • He claims he doesn’t want to minimize the pain she has but at the same time he claims he wishes to *put it in perspective.* What perspective? That 40 years have passed and maybe nothing else has happened? So if a man murders 10 people 40 years ago and never does it again, we should put it in perspective? Or is murder a worse crime than sexually abusing a 10 year old girl over period of time?
  • I was glad he said he would treat this seriously.
  • Does he understand the possibility that this alleged abuser has been able to keep his behavior a secret? Does he understand that, if this is a paraphilia, it is likely he still struggles with it?
  • Does he understand that the vast majority of sex abusers are never caught?
  • He blows it in the last two sentences. He claims this is simply something someone did in his youth and they would have no pastors if they held everyone to this standard. Good night, pastor! Are you saying that the COB has a number of pastors who molested kids in their youth? Please assure me that this is not so. You do know that molestation is a form of paraphilia, a problem that can last a lifetime, right?
    Or are you saying that molestation is no different than a 16 Y.O. boy having sex with his 16 Y.O. girlfriend in the back of his car? If this is what you believe then you have not been educated in the dynamics of sexual abuse and molestation.
  • Does the Church of the Brethren offer intensive training for their pastors on the subject of sex abuse? This letter demonstrates a possible lack of eduction on the matter. For example, he seems to imply that *if we come to Jesus* somehow this will take care of the problem. It’s only a matter of a forgiveable shame, not a potential psychiatric disorder. This is a naivety in this statement.

The correspondence from the District Office

Let me be clear. They wanted her to come and meet with them. She lives far away from this location. Also, given the response in the first letter, I do not believe it would be advisable for her to be in a room alone with these folks. My understanding is that Jimmy Hinton listened in on one of the conversations. I’m so grateful he did.

First email to Susan

—– Forwarded Message —–
From: Bill Wenger <BWenger@brethren.org>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2018, 2:27:12 PM EDT
Subject: letter about *********

Dear Susan,

Hello.  I want to let you know what actions will be taken regarding your letter about ********.

I will contact our Western PA District Pastor/Parish Ministry Team chairperson, and we will form an Assessment Team to research the facts of this case.

I ask you to not share your letter with any other people.  It is not helpful to widen the scope of this beyond those personally involved.

Also, (ed. Local Church and pastor) will not be handling this case.  The Church of the Brethren policies are such that it is the District Office that does so.

I will be in contact with you as this process unfolds.  I would like to talk to you by telephone.  Please call me at **********

Thank you.

William Wenger District Executive Western PA COB
“This is the day that the LORD has made.  Let us rejoice and be glad in it!”

Observations on this letter

  • Never, ever tell a victim who is trying to deal with her/his abuse not to contact anyone else. They are trying to be heard. Respond as one who is listening, not one who is demanding. It can also seem , even if it is not so, that one is trying to silence the victim
  • Be careful with a redundant Bible verse on your correspondence. This woman is talking to you about her abuse. This is not the time to share *let’s rejoice* passages.
  • Glad to hear about the assessment team.

Email 2

Susan makes it clear she is not going to travel across the country to meet with the Assessment Team but will participate in a conference call. She asked who was on the team.

From: Bill Wenger <BWenger@brethren.org>
To: Susan Ankney
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018, 9:24:53 AM EDT
Subject: Re: conference call

Hello.  There will be two ladies – one who is a social worked and clinical counselor and the other who works with family needs for the county welfare office  – plus myself.

Observation on Email 2

Did Wenger attach the bios on those participating in the convo?

A conference call ensued with Jimmy Hinton as a witness for Susan….Yay, Jimmy!

Email 3

Susan was asked during the conference call, witnessed by Jimmy Hinton, is she knew anyone who could corroborate her story. She was under pressure and responded soon after in an email with some names. It is also my understanding that the alleged abuser was also offered counseling (2 sessions or something like that.)

From: Bill Wenger <BWenger@brethren.org>
To: Susan Ankney
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 2:22:16 PM MST
Subject: Assessment team decision

Hello Susan.

Our Assessment Team has concluded that our work has led us to a “he said-she said” situation where we have no ability to truly know what happened between you and ****. Your account and **** account differ widely, and we have no way of discerning the actual facts. 

Therefore, we have decided to offer to pay for 4 sessions of counselling for you with a counselor of your choice.

By doing so, we want to show you support and care.  We hope that these counselling sessions might be something that can be of help to you at this time.  The fees for the 4 sessions will be paid directly to the counselor.

Please let me know if this is something you would like to do.

Thanks.

William Wenger  District Executive Western PA COB.

“This is the day that the LORD has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it!”

Observations on Email 3

  • This email was short, leaving me with lots of questions.
  • Unless someone was in the room during the molestation and took a picture, there would be no *facts.* So what did the assessment team hope to *prove?* They are not a court. I think they begged the question.
  • Who did they believe?
  • Did they contact the witnesses?
  • Who has the most to lose here?
  • Why would a woman expose herself to intrusive questions?
  • What safety measures do they have in place at the pastor in question’s local church?
  • Stop with the inappropriate Bible verse.

Final comment:

During my contacts with Susan, she repeatedly said to me “I’m doing this to protect the kids. I have held this secret for too long.” I believe her.

Susan-you have put the onus on the COB denomination to protect the kids in that church. If anything happens, it will come back to haunt them. Thank you for your bravery in coming forward. The COB needs to answer the question…Why would anyone put up with going through this unless they had a greater cause?

Here is a Bible verses that is appropriate for this situation. Maybe Wenger should consider using it.

The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
Psalm 32:18 NIV

Comments

40 Years Are Like Yesterday to Me: A Story About Confronting Abuse When an Alleged Teen Molester Became a Pastor in the Church of the Brethren — 164 Comments


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    1


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    Dee, thanks for telling my story. The person not mentioned in the story is Eric Yost a newly ordained pastor at the Moxham church of brethren in Johnstown, PA


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    On the other hand, in fairness to all, if we were to remove every pastor or church servant who did something in their youth they are ashamed of or regret, we would probably have no ministers at all. Praise God for Jesus who gives us a new life when we turn ours over to him!

    Did this COB spokeshole get so Spiritual he didn’t notice what he was actually saying?

    i.e. “Pedophilia + Incest?
    EVERY PASTOR DOES IT!
    PRAISE GOD!”

    P.S. is Church of the Brethren related to the United Brethren Church?
    If so, how close? (I suspect some sort of schism among PA Dutch Anabaptists some time in the past.)
    Reason is I know a guy in the UBC and don’t know whether to give him a heads-up on this.


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    Okay. Did a little searching and Church of the Brethren and United Brethren Church appear to be completely separate (though both are Anabaptist of Deustche descent).

    COB started as German “Dunkers” and UBC started as a Mennonite offshoot in Baltimore about 50 years later. And each has schismed several times in their history.
    Can’t tell the church without a scorecard… “Who’s On First?”


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    Susan Ankney:
    Dee, thanks for telling my story.The person not mentioned in the story is Eric Yost a newly ordained pastor at the Moxham church of brethren in Johnstown, PA

    I’m sorry for what happened to you, Susan. Thanks for sharing your story. We support you.


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    “It is a crime that cannot be prosecuted due to the Statute of Limitations.”

    There should be no Statute of Limitations on the sexual abuse of children.


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    ” … she is not going to travel across the country to meet with the Assessment Team …”

    Reminds me of Paige Patterson’s desire to meet with an alleged rape victim so he could “break her down.”


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    From the church:

    However, we have to be very careful because it would be just as detrimental if this was an isolated incident and never happened again.

    And here we keep running into this. How are you going to ‘investigate’ if this has happened again, or in the congregation, or to children without TELLING anyone???? You aren’t.

    in fairness to all, if we were to remove every pastor or church servant who did something in their youth they are ashamed of or regret, we would probably have no ministers at all.

    I sincerely hope ministers can be found who have no sexually abused children, or children in their own family. If not, shut the whole church down and burn the ashes.


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    Also any sort of ‘its’ been 40 years maybe nothing else has happened/bygones’ comment in a situation where the alleged abuser has NOT repented and has NOT confessed and has NOT sought to make restitution at any time in the past is invalid. You don’t get a pass because time passed when you haven’t made any effort to make it better.

    Of course, these guys were just going to go to the he said/she said/we’re not bothering to see if anything else has happened or their are other victims well so….


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    Lea: If not, shut the whole church down and burn the ashes.

    Burn it down you mean, and then plow it under with salt.


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    Lea: And here we keep running into this. How are you going to ‘investigate’ if this has happened again, or in the congregation, or to children without TELLING anyone???? You aren’t.

    Well said!


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    Putting rape “into perspective”, mulling whether to consider it an isolate incident, and wondering if perchance it could be disqualifying as far as leading a church? The ‘above reproach’ standard per 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 (nenver mind rendering unto Caesar and doing unto others as you would nphabe them do unto you) doesn’t seem to be the priority in a lot of these institutions.


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    JDV:
    Putting rape “into perspective”, mulling whether to consider it an isolate incident, and wondering if perchance it could be disqualifying as far as leading a church? The ‘above reproach’ standard per 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 (nenver mind rendering unto Caesar and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you) doesn’t seem to be the priority in a lot of these institutions.

    Oh, and I missed the first cousin part. Perhaps the powers that be can put 1 Corinthians 5 “into perspective”.


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    Susan Ankney,

    Internet hug.


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    dee,

    Three or more full email addresses are visible in the post. I don’t know if that’s deliberate or not, but it could lead to problems.


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    Lea:
    From the church:

    And here we keep running into this. How are you going to ‘investigate’ if this has happened again, or in the congregation, or to children without TELLING anyone???? You aren’t.

    I sincerely hope ministers can be found who have no sexually abused children, or children in their own family. If not, shut the whole church down and burn the ashes.

    Their response was too organized. Something similar has happened before, it being with another pastor or member of their denomination. It’s like a corporation’s investigation of itself regarding possible EEOC violations.


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    So, molesting a child on multiple occasions, followed by at least two actual rapes of the same child, is “an isolated instance,” as opposed to “a pattern of behavior… that cannot be ignored or accepted”? How absurd.

    It’s one thing to ask whether or not a serious allegation is true. It’s an entirely different thing to suggest (as this pastor does) that, even if it IS true, it doesn’t matter because there was only one victim. The number of victims is not what creates a pattern. Committing the same crime over and over is the very definition of “a pattern of behavior.”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: COB started as German “Dunkers” and UBC started as a Mennonite offshoot in Baltimore about 50 years later. And each has schismed several times in their history.
    Can’t tell the church without a scorecard… “Who’s On First?”

    It’s like that Emo Phillips church joke (“the guy on the bridge”).

    On a more serious note, there are just so many people who don’t get how damaging child sexual abuse is. And they seem to have worked their way into higher church leadership positions. 🙁


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    Susan Ankney,

    Thank you for bravely sharing!!! I hope this is the beginning of protection and that others might come forward!! They aren’t responding properly and need to investigate!!


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    JDV: first cousin

    That makes the church’s response even more problematic. If the survivor remains silent, and the church views it as an old he-said-she-said story, how will any other potential victims of alleged incest know that now is a good time to come forward? (As I understand it, a first cousin is a third-degree relative. I don’t know where the alleged abuse took place, but marriage of first cousins is illegal in Pennsylvania.)


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    Friend: That makes the church’s response even more problematic. If the survivor remains silent, and the church views it as an old he-said-she-said story, how will any other potential victims of alleged incest know that now is a good time to come forward?

    FEATURE, NOT BUG.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s like that Emo Phillips church joke (“the guy on the bridge”).

    Like South Park, “It’s Funny Because It’s True”.


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    Friend,

    And that is why your name, *Friend*, is fitting for you! There are a couple of emails that were intended. The rest were not!


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    Susan, thank you for telling your story.


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    Sexual abuse amongst conservative annabaptist groups is an on going problem. Much evidence is available online. This is in an infamous case:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/mennonites-apologize-for-history-of-sex-abuse-following-theologian-john-howard-yoder-scandal/2015/07/07/9fdb2092-24b7-11e5-b621-b55e495e9b78_story.html?utm_term=.04bf6abbe028


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    dee,

    You may have still missed one? Email 2?


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    Loren Haas,

    Here’s an example of someone leaping to an entirely different Christian institution—from Mennonite to Roman Catholic!—and continuing his “experiments” on vulnerable young women:

    The [Anabaptist Mennonite Biblical Seminary’s] former president, Marlin Miller, learned of Yoder’s activities shortly after becoming president in 1975 and tried to convince Yoder that his theology was flawed. The scholarly discussion continued for nearly a decade, abetted by Yoder’s periodic threats of legal action.

    In 1979, Miller finally directed him to stop his “experiments” and five years later forced Yoder’s resignation. Yoder moved to nearby University of Notre Dame, where he remained until his death 13 years later.

    (At Notre Dame, Yoder accosted at least two women, Goossen reported. The university has declined to comment, claiming it’s a personnel matter.)

    Miller told no one — not even the seminary board.


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    You are correct. Thank you.


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    Friend: At Notre Dame, Yoder accosted at least two women, Goossen reported. The university has declined to comment, claiming it’s a personnel matter.

    So much that the powers that be want to keep in-house, so bu$ine$$ as usual can keep humming along.


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    Good job covering this story Dee. I agree with your assessment if their emailed responses. It is scary to think that “there would be no pastors” if we actually expected men to meet the qualifications found in I Timothy 3.

    The email comes across as tone deaf for sure. The stories on this site all show how inept churches are at getting in front of an issue. Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled? I do not doubt that the story is true, but I can see the conundrum. I also know that anyone that did this at 16 years old has probably done it more than once, which is the bigger concern.

    These are dark days for sure. Thankfully, God is near the broken-hearted.


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    I’m so sorry, Susan, that such a devastating thing happened to you.

    It is very likely that this sort of perverse behavior starts fairly early; it is extremely unwise to brush it off as something that happened when he was young. A close relative’s aged and nearly invalid father in law, and former minister, molested one of her children, and attempted to lure the other, which is how he was caught. Turns out, I recently discovered, this pedophilia had been going on since before he was married. (Don’t know all the details, as it is still painful for her to discuss.) That means he had this issue the whole time he was a minister, with access to many trusting children. One can only suspect that there are many unknown victims out there. So tragic. He did go to jail, but I’m not sure anything was ever done to see if there were other victims.

    I suppose ‘he said/she said’ is difficult to navigate, but let’s face it, how many predators abuse before witnesses? There must be ways to investigate these incidents, which probably includes looking for more victims. The rest of their comments are completely off the mark. This is not some childhood mischief-making, but a serious pathology. At the very least they need to check with Susan’s witnesses, who I assume are people she told about the incidents. Again, Susan, I’m sorry and I hope good fruit will come from your efforts.


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    TS00:
    There must be ways to investigate these incidents, which probably includes looking for more victims. The rest of their comments are completely off the mark. This is not some childhood mischief-making, but a serious pathology. At the very least they need to check with Susan’s witnesses, who I assume are people she told about the incidents. Again, Susan, I’m sorry and I hope good fruit will come from your efforts.

    Start with an environment of grace, not legalism. Any molester could twist scripture to control his victims through fear.


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    Thank you, Brave Susan! God bless and strengthen you. May your voice be used to protect other’s from harm.


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    Susan Ankney,

    Sue, I’m so proud of you! You are an incredible friend and you constantly inspire me. Thank you for doing the tough thing and speaking up.


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    “If this is something that happened as a minor, and did not become a lifestyle, to ruin his reputation and damage his ministry would be just as wrong.”
    “Before we come to Jesus, there are many things that we could all be ashamed of and surely regret that we have done.”
    “in fairness to all, if we were to remove every pastor or church servant who did something in their youth they are ashamed of or regret, we would probably have no ministers at all. Praise God for Jesus who gives us a new life when we turn ours over to him!”

    It has been 100 percent my experience so far that every response that sounds exactly like this has preceded the exposure of similar type crimes committed by the responder himself. Pastor ?, what did you do as a teenager that was as serious as what Susan’s cousin did to her? Good grief, you cannot even see that we would be better off without ministers at all, if, when teenagers, they were all as evil as rapists.


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    Well, another whopping fail by a church without a clue.

    it also begs the question as to whether this was something that happened a long time ago, or is it something that has continued throughout his life?

    The nature of what he did makes it very unlikely this was a one-time offense, IMO.

    What she described was premeditated, manipulative, predatory behavior. It was ongoing and without evidence of conscience or remorse.

    Normal people do not just “do” something like this as a one-off and then go back to normal. It really sounds like the behavior of someone who is personality disordered, not that I’m any kind of professional, but come on. What he did was evil. If the church thinks this is anywhere near normal behavior for a 15 year old, they must be used to deviates. It’s very possible that he’s been preying on younger, defenseless people for a very long time.

    The developmental difference in age and power between 15 and 10 is large.

    Either she is telling the truth and he is a dangerous person or she has made up a horrendous lie, there’s no in between. If they think it is a lie, why would they offer her 4 sessions of counseling?

    Honestly, Christians can be the most bumbling, gullible, naive fools sometimes.


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    Patti: It has been 100 percent my experience so far that every response that sounds exactly like this has preceded the exposure of similar type crimes committed by the responder himself. Pastor ?, what did you do as a teenager that was as serious as what Susan’s cousin did to her? Good grief, you cannot even see that we would be better off without ministers at all, if, when teenagers, they were all as evil as rapists.

    Patti, you are very right, this is how it usually progresses. Anyone else would be horrified by Susan’s letter.

    Susan, I’m so sorry this happened to you. What a terrible weight to have carried all this time. I admire and thank you for coming forward. I believe that your voice will help to change things.


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    George: Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled?

    It is currently handled as ‘he said’ is correct unless we mysteriously turn up hardcore evidence without looking or telling anybody, or alternately if it blows up in our face somehow. That’s clearly wrong.

    An honest OPEN investigation, with a sidelining of the pastor until it is completed would be a start. I think a lot of these guys, in addition to not wanting to ‘hurt his reputation’ are afraid that if they ASK people in the church if any abuses have happened they might get answers. And then they might have to actually deal with it. They don’t want to, regardless of what happened, so they sweep it all under the wrong.


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    Patti: It has been 100 percent my experience so far that every response that sounds exactly like this has preceded the exposure of similar type crimes committed by the responder himself.

    The completely lack of revulsion at what is disclosed says to me that many of these men are not right in their souls on these topics. I fear you are 100% correct on this.


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    Siteseer: without evidence of conscience or remorse.

    It is maddening how these ‘oh it was a long time ago’ responses leave that bit out.

    Of course, it could be they also just don’t believe/value women regardless of what’s true. I’m convinced that’s a significant part of the problem.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Ok, I’m sorry that this is completely unrelated to your comment, but I just have to ask…I feel certain I’ve seen your screen name before in a comment section on another blog. Did you ever (like several years back) read and comment on the blog thecommandmentsofmen? Could’ve been someone else with the same screen name, but I’m just wondering if this is one of those “small world” moments.


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    Lea: Of course, it could be they also just don’t believe/value women regardless of what’s true. I’m convinced that’s a significant part of the problem.

    Now, what do you think a male predator is going to say when confronted about such an alleged event? It doesn’t take a second to know he is going to say ‘She made it all up’. Then, often, add such helpful explanations as ‘She was always sort of unreliable’ or ‘She was always jealous of me, and just wants to take me down’.

    I am not going to say that such things never happen. Certainly a women could make a completely false accusation just to hurt someone. That’s why an investigation needs to be made, as to the general character of the two individuals, any ‘issues’ other family members might note, etc.

    One of the really big problems with this whole situation is the fact that predatory behavior nearly always takes place where there are no witnesses. And abusers are often extremely clever at hiding their ‘other self’. Take the case of the Scottish pastor who hung himself, after being found guilty of carrying on with multiple women. He was extremely highly regarded in reformed circles, wrote many books, spoke at conferences, etc. How can anyone live two such contrary lives? I don’t know, but as we have seen, such men are often drawn to the gullible crowd found in churches, where victims are many and trusting. And the ‘office’ gives you instant status as pure and good.


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    TS00,

    Which reminds me, I thought Dee was going to be offering more insight into the Iain Campbell affair? Just wondering.


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    George,

    “Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    by the police, not by church leaders, for starters. (since it’s a crime)


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    I see Al Mohler’s provost at Southern (Randy Stinson) is being sent to Southwestern along with Adam Greenway:

    http://www.bpnews.net/52486/stinson-elected-provost-at-swbts

    “‘I could not be more excited to have Randy Stinson with me to serve as provost at Southwestern Seminary,’ said Adam W. Greenway, the seminary’s newly elected president.”

    “Stinson previously served as senior vice president for academic administration and provost at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.”


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    Stinson is a CBMW stalwart (preceded Owen Stachan as executive director) and was involved in the shift to ‘Nouthetic’ counseling at SBTS:

    http://www.bpnews.net/20152/southern-seminary-launches-new-vision-for-biblical-counseling

    (2005) “Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is taking its Christian counseling department in a new direction.”

    “Southern has appointed two new professors to help carry out its renewed vision of biblical counseling: Stuart Scott will serve as professor of biblical counseling at both the seminary and in its undergraduate program, Boyce College, while Randy Stinson will serve as assistant professor of gender and family studies.

    Currently, Scott is professor of biblical counseling at The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, Calif., and is a former pastor of counseling at Grace Community Church, where he served under Pastor John MacArthur. He is the author of the recent book ‘The Exemplary Husband: A Biblical Perspective’.

    Stinson has served since 2000 as executive director of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which is located on the campus of Southern Seminary. Stinson will complete a Ph.D. at Southern in the spring and will also continue as the leader of CBMW.”


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    elastigirl: George,

    “Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    by the police, not by church leaders, for starters. (since it’s a crime)

    Agreed! DO NOT call the pastor, call 911! Sex abuse is a crime that should be handled by legal authorities, not church authorities. We’ve seen far too many cases of church cover-up when church leaders get involved, urging victims to forgive the abuser, where “he said” prevails over “she said” in patriarchal churches. Forgiveness ‘might’ follow, but it should be on the other side of calling in civil authorities to address the crime at hand.


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    Siteseer,

    ” If the church thinks this is anywhere near normal behavior for a 15 year old, they must be used to deviates.”
    +++++++++++++++

    or that everyone not in the ‘born again’ club is a little evil goblin, doing sinister and terrible things all the day the long.

    as if to say, “well, of course these things are normal for The World.”


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    Siteseer: If the church thinks this is anywhere near normal behavior for a 15 year old, they must be used to deviates.

    We’ve heard the “boys will be boys” excuse before … but the boys I grew up with didn’t rape 10 year old girls … and then go on to become pastors!


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    Siteseer:
    Either she is telling the truth and he is a dangerous person or she has made up a horrendous lie, there’s no in between. If they think it is a lie, why would they offer her 4 sessions of counseling?

    This is what I was thinking. There’s no middle ground. If they think she’s a liar, then frankly, she should be sued for libel, but if they think she might be truthful, then there’s no way you can write off this kind of behavior as a harmless one off. This is not a teenage kid caught in the church parking lot back of the car seat with another teenage kid. Rape of a young child is a totally different animal.


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    elastigirl: by the police, not by church leaders, for starters. (since it’s a crime)

    I’m sitting here scratching my head and wondering how not FIRST reporting it to law enforcement could even be an option.


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    Siteseer,

    “Honestly, Christians can be the most bumbling, gullible, naive fools sometimes.”
    +++++++++++++++

    here’s the part Jesus left off in his Good Samaritan parable:

    “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A church leader happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he stopped to take out his bible. Baffled, he started riffling through the pages for the step-by-step instructions and could be heard mumbling, ‘what to do….what to do….'”


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    Lea,

    Lydia is calling for the destruction of the Church AGAIN!


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    elastigirl: by the police, not by church leaders, for starters. (since it’s a crime)

    Although in this case, this would probably not be a viable option? Since the statute of limitations is past, I don’t imagine they would spend any time, money or effort in pursuing the case.


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    elastigirl,

    was this ever in a Far Side? Numskull ‘Harold’ the hamster encounters ‘Madge’ the hamstress in great distress, 3/4 flattened by the run-about-ball. Harold is flummoxed. Harold consults “Textbook” that he always carries around with him.


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    elastigirl: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A church leader happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he stopped to take out his bible. Baffled, he started riffling through the pages for the step-by-step instructions and could be heard mumbling, ‘what to do….what to do….’”

    That’s ‘biblical counseling’ in a nutshell. 😉 Only, they wouldn’t start with the bible – they would start with the handbook, written by men, telling them what the bible allegedly says. Likely he would start by condemning him for his lack of modesty, laying there naked in the street. Sorry for the snark, but this biblical counseling stuff is tightly interwoven with the Calvinist takeover, as a prior comment quotes an SBC article touting its ‘renewed vision of biblical counseling’. Goes right along with its renewed vision of the gospel.


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    elastigirl,

    This is a recent case in Scotland. The offender was 15 at the time and abused the young girl over a period of two years. It caused an uproar here because it looked like a case of status/money talks.

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/3827989/christopher-daniel-glasgow-dental-student-sexual-assault/


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    TS00,

    “Although in this case, this would probably not be a viable option? Since the statute of limitations is past, I don’t imagine they would spend any time, money or effort in pursuing the case.”
    +++++++++++++

    church leaders then join the effort and use their influence to abolish statute of limitations.


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    “If this is something that happened as a minor, and did not become a lifestyle, to ruin his reputation and damage his ministry would be just as wrong.”

    But would it be wrong? Biblically and logically, shouldn’t a man’s reputation reflect the sum of his character and behavior? Is anyone entitled to a better reputation than his own actions have earned?

    Bringing unrepented serious sin to light (especially sins against a very young and defenceless target) would merely restore his reputation to what it should have been all along: the reputation of someone who would harm a child and then refuse to repent for forty long years.

    There’s something else that the pastor overlooked. If this “isolated incident” (which was actually an ongoing campaign of sexual abuse) really happened, then the perpetrator’s denial is a sin in the here and now. In other words, he’s a liar right now, not forty years ago. And not an innocuous little “white lie,” either. That alone should disqualify him from serving in ministry.

    I’m so very, very tired of churches where truth is considered an obstacle to ministry.


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    Jerome,

    Whew! Dr. Al is quickly stacking up Mohlerites as the new leaders at SWBTS! Something I “prophesied” would happen after Patterson’s exit … actually before his exit. It was just a matter of time before the wave of SBC Calvinization swept into SWBTS; Patterson’s scandalous departure gave the new reformers an opening sooner than they expected. Sad to see the 150+ year Southern Baptist identity change; they have forfeited their denominational gifting in evangelism. New Calvinism is arrogant, militant, aggressive, deceptive, and manipulative … “God-things” are not.


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    anonymous,

    Could you please elaborate? Lydia has been posting here for years. She has never called for the complete destruction of the church. Could you please post your proof of this? Do what we do-link.


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    Friend: The [Anabaptist Mennonite Biblical Seminary’s] former president, Marlin Miller, learned of Yoder’s activities shortly after becoming president in 1975 and tried to convince Yoder that his theology was flawed. The scholarly discussion continued for nearly a decade, abetted by Yoder’s periodic threats of legal action.

    What stood out to me in the above statement:

    Miller confronted Yoder on the basis of THEOLOGY.
    Not that he was acting like a sexual predator.
    http://i1.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/the-theologians.jpg


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    Lea: And then they might have to actually deal with it. They don’t want to, regardless of what happened, so they sweep it all under the wrong.

    Instead, turn to Page XXX of the Hymnal and Praise God with our Kick-Ass Worship Band…


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    TS00: Now, what do you think a male predator is going to say when confronted about such an alleged event? It doesn’t take a second to know he is going to say ‘She made it all up’. Then, often, add such helpful explanations as ‘She was always sort of unreliable’ or ‘She was always jealous of me, and just wants to take me down’.

    If he has not “added such helpful explanations” before the “alleged event”, as part of the Grooming process. Predators don’t only Groom their victims; successful ones also Groom third parties (especially authority figures) as allies in advance. Thus when the victim comes forward, her cries fall on pre-deafened, previously Groomed ears allied with the predator.

    “Go ahead and squeal, Tattle Tale! Nobody will EVER Believe You! Because You’re the Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel!”


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    Angela: Ok, I’m sorry that this is completely unrelated to your comment, but I just have to ask…I feel certain I’ve seen your screen name before in a comment section on another blog. Did you ever (like several years back) read and comment on the blog thecommandmentsofmen?

    I don’t think so. That blog name doesn’t sound familiar, though sometimes I do go down links from the blogs I usually comment on and leave a one-shot.
    (I’m also unaware of anyone else using this handle, though it is possible.)


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    Patti: It has been 100 percent my experience so far that every response that sounds exactly like this has preceded the exposure of similar type crimes committed by the responder himself.

    That WOULD fit in with the “BUT EVERYBODY DOES IT!” synopsis of the official respone.


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    George: how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled?

    Others have said to call the police, which is right for a recent alleged crime; and abolish statutes of limitations, or at least don’t work against their abolition.

    Susan Ankney is alleging very serious, detailed, long-term abuse. I would think that a psychological profile of the alleged rapist, completed by an independent expert, is warranted. The denomination should pay for this and require it. The survivor would probably have to participate for this to be complete and even handed. Findings should be shared with a group that invites/includes the survivor and church members as well as the accused man and denomination.

    Since the story is spreading, the church should also hold one or more meetings with all of the adult members to discuss the allegation. All of this attention will reach the man’s family. If more victims are out there, they will probably hear about it and decide whether to come forward.

    I don’t have a detailed design in mind. These are just some ideas to break the silence.

    I also think the offer of counseling puts the denomination in legal hot water. Why would they pay to address a situation they basically deny?

    Just my two cents’ worth…


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    My two cents, admittedly affected by having a mentally ill friend who HAS made false allegations against multiple men. And before you mentally tar and feather her, she WAS legitimately a victim as a young child, just not of the men she has accused. It has been proven repeatedly in court they were innocent. Sometimes multiple stranger witnesses testified she was NOT assaulted. So here goes:

    First step is call the police. But if the statute of limitations means they will not investigate, the church then needs to get the local D.A. to recommend an independent investigator. If they cannot get that input they should turn over every rock, even call Dr. Phil, to get a completely unbiased investigation done.

    During that investigation the accused has the right to counsel, to pay, and to respect but must never be in a situation where further abuse could occur. How that looks will vary by church. (A church consisting of 12 geezers may be happy letting him preach. A church with children may prefer to put him on a sabbatical.)

    All should understand the accused has every right to launch his own investigation if he denies the charges. It may be helpful if he can prove he was not physically where she alleges (maybe out of town or at a meeting or whatever.) He has every right to have the alleged victim investigated. Obviously if the victim has a reputation of lying, manipulating, histrionics, or mental health issues he should be able to defend himself from that. No one should want to see anyone railroaded for something they did NOT do. (In one of my friend’s alleged incidents where she claimed sexual harassment and unwanted innuendo and attention, I was present. The man she made the claim against was talking to a group of guys and never looked her way. He was at least 15 ft away from her.)

    I believe generally what starts out he said she said will pretty quickly develop into one clearly covering up or lying and the other not.

    If the victim is truly the victim, I prefer lethal injection of the perp but since the law frowns on that at the absolute very least the abuser should be fired immediately, blackballed for life, and made very public to be an abuser. Polite society should have no place for such a pariah.

    By the same token, if the alleged victim proves unstable, get her all the help she needs and publicly clear his name, even if it embarrasses her. He should not have to suffer for her illness. If she proves not unstable, but lying for any reason (vindictiveness, attention, etc) she should suffer the same ills the alleged perp should have suffered had he been guilty.

    Because of my mentally ill friend I do not automatically “believe the victim” since there may be no victim, just an accuser. But that does not mean I automatically believe the accused is innocent, either. I prefer to wait out the investigation.

    I will also state that at one point I joined a church unaware the pastor had had his credentials suspended in another state for allegedly behaving improperly towards a young woman. He was fired and later she took his job. He changed states and again became a pastor. We were told that years later she admitted it was all a lie. Perhaps it was, since eventually he left us and went back to that other state a credentialed pastor again. But I wondered, since when he left it was very sudden and just as suddenly his younger married female song leader left the church “because we are moving out of town” only she and her family never moved an inch.

    So I am wary, but slow to act without a proper investigation.


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    linda,

    The same old mantra… I will then assume that you believe that Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are innocent.


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    George,

    Sadly, unless there is a video of the abuse occurring and preferably 2-3 witnesses, he said/she said will always be the played card. The alleged perp must be questioned and have a complete psychological profile by independent third parties. One must also take into account the number of false accusations that occur in situations like this. Then, there is erring on the side of caution which is helpful.


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    Friend: Others have said to call the police, which is right for a recent alleged crime; and abolish statutes of limitations, or at least don’t work against their abolition.

    Susan Ankney is alleging very serious, detailed, long-term abuse. I would think that a psychological profile of the alleged rapist, completed by an independent expert, is warranted. The denomination should pay for this and require it. The survivor would probably have to participate for this to be complete and even handed. Findings should be shared with a group that invites/includes the survivor and church members as well as the accused man and denomination.

    Since the story is spreading, the church should also hold one or more meetings with all of the adult members to discuss the allegation. All of this attention will reach the man’s family. If more victims are out there, they will probably hear about it and decide whether to come forward.

    I don’t have a detailed design in mind. These are just some ideas to break the silence.

    I also think the offer of counseling puts the denomination in legal hot water. Why would they pay to address a situation they basically deny?

    Just my two cents’ worth…

    The offer of help, feels like a preemptive move. Having been in a Americans with Disability Act case, their offer looks like an out of court settlement. Since the blog post also mentioned he went to two sessions, the overall context sounds like an avoidance of civil action.


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    Patti:Good grief, you cannot even see that we would be better off without ministers at all, if, when teenagers, they were all as evil as rapists.

    Actually, as they are presently defined in most churches, we’d truly be better off without ministers at all. Most are truly acting in a role that does not exist in the Bible. Even if they’re a fine person, they’re typically fulfilling an unbiblical role. Most would be better off if they resigned tomorrow. That’s not hyperbole, I mean that 100%.


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    Law Prof: Most would be better off if they resigned tomorrow.

    As a pastor of 40 years I do not find this the case. It is true of some but not the majority in churches I know well. I would have made a lot more as a engineer (fwiw, my fraternity brother at Ga Tech recently retired as CEO of Walmart). I averaged over 60 hours per week in ministry. I can look back and see God’s grace. 80 % of the couples I did pre-marital counseling with and did their weddings are still married (average 30+ years). I still keep up with many of them and their kids and grand-kids.

    I am a firm believer in jailing child molesters regardless of profession. The one pastor I worked with that I know is a child/youth molester is doing 40 years (been in a Texas prison since 2001).

    Discovering and dealing with these predators is difficult and we must keep aware and take as much precaution as possible. I also worked for a number of years with YMCA camps and that provides opportunities for perverts to prowl as well.

    But for the MANY pastors who are faithful to their biblical calling I am truly grateful.


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    Regarding the statute of limitations, I’m not sure that abolishing it would help many victims. It’s already hard enough to get a sex crime prosecuted when the crime is recent and there’s evidence available. How much harder would it be to get a prosecutor to take it to court decades later, after the evidence has been lost, or when the corroborating witnesses may have long since forgotten the details? Or let’s say that an innocent person has been accused (which happens from time to time). Maybe there’s still some evidence that seems to point to his guilt, but by now, all the exculpatory evidence has disappeared. Maybe the one eyewitness who could have exonerated him is in a nursing home suffering from dementia. What then? This is the sort of reason why statutes of limitation exist. Justice is more likely to be served when crimes are prosecuted in a timely manner.

    For the record, I’m only talking about the criminal justice system. The New Testament standard is that leaders must be “above reproach,” full stop, no time limits.


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    Anonymous Grandma: So, molesting a child on multiple occasions, followed by at least two actual rapes of the same child, is “an isolated instance,” as opposed to “a pattern of behavior… that cannot be ignored or accepted”? How absurd.

    … Committing the same crime over and over is the very definition of “a pattern of behavior.”

    Marilyn Van Derbur, author of “Miss America by Day”, and survivor, has said that after her father died, others came forward to testify that he had abused girls until the day he died in his mid-70’s. The pattern doesn’t go away with age.

    Van Derbur also states that it has taken decades for her to face what happened to her as a daughter growing up. Decades. The damage also doesn’t go away overnight.

    https://www.missamericabyday.com/


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    Law Prof: Even if they’re a fine person, they’re typically fulfilling an unbiblical role. Most would be better off if they resigned tomorrow. That’s not hyperbole, I mean that 100%.

    Well said. I am sure there are fine pastors out there. I have know a few in my life that I consider genuine, humble servants of God who love and seek to help others. But even if every single pastor fit that bill – and they don’t – I would still assert that the role of pastor is unbiblical, unwise and not healthy for either him or his congregation.

    At the Calvinist church I attended for so long, one of the deacons, who was a close friend and an older, educated, thoughtful man, was always asking for a question and answer session after sermons, which would have been quite doable as we would have a break for lunch then follow with a group sunday school. Why not let people ask the pastor about things they did not understand or did not agree with? I can find no ‘good’ answer.

    The last church I attended the pastor often complained that everyone wanted him to do all of their studying and wrestling with scripture for them, and hand them answers on a plate. I didn’t know him that well, or I would have suggested that by placing a man in that sort of superior, all-knowing position over others, it is asking for just such thinking.

    In a discussion on such things, a friend recently acknowledged that he was too busy to study the bible and other study sources much, and that’s why he was glad for a trained, paid minister. I was dumbfounded. This truly is, IMO, the biggest problem in the church and the rest of our society. We are too willing to turn off our brains, consciences and common sense and aver to the experts, in everything, religion, politics, science, etc. And it doesn’t seem to phase people when these ‘experts’ are repeatedly proven to be mistaken, deceptive or in it for the money or position. Sometimes I think there is no hope.


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    TS00: Sometimes I think there is no hope.

    “…these three remain: faith, hope and love, … the greatest being love.” 1 Cor. 13:13.

    Lovingly, we appreciate the shepherds God has put in place, and tough lovingly deal with those out of place.

    Finally, we also know that the Holy Spirit has gifted every Christian for the Church: Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, and Eph. 4; and then we can seek, lovingly, where are all 18 gifts, pastor included, acknowledged, appreciated, openly activated, rewarded – not necessarily with $ – for being true to their gift/calling?

    Maybe the gift is not in a building or have a titled position. For example, I often sense the gift of discernment on this blog.


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    Susan Ankney,

    Susan, I believe you. I’m so sorry for what happened to you 40 years ago. I understand how abuse can eat at you for years after the fact. I pray that God will bring safe people into your life (more people like Jimmy and Dee!) to help you on your healing journey.

    Love, a fellow survivor and advocate (feel free to find me on Facebook!)


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    How do you know when you need counseling?

    I’ve never been abused. I’ve never abused anyone.
    Until I was 30 to my embarrassment I thought the statistics I heard about sex abuse were exaggerated.
    I’m churches I heard a testimony here and there about a woman saying they had been molested. I heard a minister once say that one in four women studying st some bible college had been molested. At the time it seemed hard to believe..

    It always seemed like a crime that was far away. Like a murder that happens in another town – something on the news.

    I was brought up in churches with strict teaching on sexuality. The type where people wrestled over questions of whether masturbation and oral sex were sins or acceptable.

    So, after I’m 30 I hear that a super respected famous preacher molested kids. A man everyone thought was “apostolic”. Then later a man who seemed to be the father of the year type who I idolized was found to have engaged in some kind sexual activity with his daughters

    I’m not the victim. But learning this shocked me and has left me with depression that always seems to hang around.

    The two men I mentioned were not suspected of being like that. They were both the last people anyone would think. So, were they evil creeps who pretended they were “decent”, or can I “mostly nice” person do evil things a few times in their lives? I honestly don’t know.

    And not knowing depresses me. I grew up thinking someone that touches a child once should be shot. Until I heard about someone who did – and imagined what THEIR wife, mother, sister, child, friend would feel if he were arrested, sentenced etc.

    And, now I find myself thinking about men I know and wondering if they could do that kind of thing,

    And – now I’m married to a woman who says she was molested and had to stay awake to fight off being molested by family members and only since being married to me has been able to sleep the night through.

    I honestly never imagined the world was this bad.

    I lived for decades feeling I was probably not “saved” because I thought I couldn’t be “pure”.

    And then I find that a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality and seemed so holy – had molested several boys.

    I almost lost my faith over it.

    And now, I struggle with the question – did these preachers try to stop? By praying, and doing all the things Christians say to do to overcome sin? Or were they fakes to begin with.

    Can pedophiles be helped?
    How do you stop your son from doing this?

    I don’t honestly know how people deal with this.

    I ….. don’t know why God doesn’t stop this..

    My wife as a little girl said she prayed for God to stop her father from trying to touch her. He didn’t stop him.

    I don’t know what I believe anymore..
    But reading this site and thinking about this makes me want to give up on the human race.

    I’m sorry for rambling. But unless I see a psychiatrist I have nobody to talk about with this.

    My friends say “we are all sinners and no sin is worse than others”.

    Have any of you ever imagined what it would be like if someone accused your mother or father of sex abuse?

    Or if your mother told you an uncle molested them? Can you really say you would call the police straight away?

    I honestly don’t know what I would do.

    But I’m also older and when I was younger things were different.

    Sorry.

    Is it possible to delete this post tomorrow..

    I know it’s not a productive post.

    I’m just “losing my religion”


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    Justaguy,

    I’m so sorry. I’ve been covering these stories for 10 years. Tonight I had dinner with some friends, one of whom is a psychiatrist. I asked him how I’m so supposed to deal with a Bill Hybels sort of abuser. Is he a Christian or did he use the church as a means to become a predator of women? He just heard about Hybels so he was not so sure but he did find the Ambient defense novel…

    Let me tell you how I cope. When I read the Bible, I;’m confronted with the fact that doing evil in the sight of the Lord is pretty darn pervasive, even in the New Testament. And maybe this functional sinner thing is worse than we would like to think.Maybe we really, really need forgiveness because we are worse than we like to think. I mean, couldn’t Paul and Peter have gotten along?

    I do know this. There is little hope that mankind will ever be perfect. So, instead, we try to control the narrative and *cook the books* as one of my pastor’s used to say. We try t dapper better than we really are.

    For me, there is the practice of. the presence of God who must dole grace out to me on a daily basis. In spite of myself, I sense his presence .

    Keep the comment up there. It’s a real expression of your feeling today.


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    Susan Ankney,

    Susan, I am just so incredibly sorry that this happened to you as a girl, & that now you have to put up with this substandard response from those who have claimed they take your abuse seriously. I want to make a few things clear, as I work in a job with a lot of child safeguarding issues:
    1. When it comes to sexual abuse, most of the time abusers do not abuse their victims in front of witnesses, particularly if they are children. It is therefore almost ALWAYS abuser says/victim says, & to say ‘oh because this is he says/she says therefore we can’t do X’ is just nonsense when almost all historical child abuse enquiries deal with that limitation. That is a totally normal circumstance in these situations, & therefore not one that requires any kind of ‘oh we’re so sorry, but…’ fudge. They just need to get this into the hands of people who are able to deal with this because of their training & experience, i.e. any decent Detective who deal with sex crimes.
    2. Sometimes juveniles sexually offend for different reasons than adults do, & they do go on to stop offending when they find other ways to do whatever it was they were trying to do – i.e. they look for consensual rather than non-consensual sexual contact, as they now realise consent is important. In your cousin’s case, he shows a lot of scary signs such as isolating you (so there could be no witnesses), threatening you, & repeat offending including rape, that he clearly knows are wrong, that make me afraid that his predatory behaviours – because that is what they were – will continue into adult life. You’re right to be worried for other children, & he probably moved straight on from you to another victim as soon as he could find one.
    3. That whole, excuse my language, but utter utter bullshit notion that many people have committed crimes of this level in their youth, & that they’re just youthful indiscretions & so on & let’s leave it all behind like an 80’s haircut is just plain wrong. It minimises an appalling set of crimes committed against you, & it makes out that he was no worse than many men. That’s nonsense, most young people are not child rapists. That is dangerous & naive thinking & easily leads to allowing offenders to continue.
    4. He should absolutely not be in the pulpit with child rape in his background. Him not being in the pulpit is NOT, & I want to repeat NOT, comparable to you being raped, in terms of its seriousness & injustice. It’s not even one hundredth as serious. So that is anon-starter as far as I’m concerned, as far as reasons to back off from him are concerned.
    5. I hope you will still be taking this to Law Enforcement, in order to report him, irrespective of time elapsed. And do not, under any circumstances, deal with the church, their elders, counsellors or any of their people without an independent advocate with you as you do. Do not deal with them alone, as despite their original words, they are in the process of re-victimising you as either a liar, or someone who needs to put your cousin’s ministry above the safety of children.

    Hang in there, you are believed & cared about, & sadly yours is just one of a thousand similar stories.


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    Justaguy,

    I think it completely right & normal to feel totally spun out over the clash of facts when the same church system that has absolutely exaggerated the sinfulness of the most minor sexual acts: agonised, & wrung hands & clutched pearls & warned Christians about them with tears & pleas, & books & campaigns, suddenly turns out to contain a host of sexual predators who have committed the most serious sexual crimes that can be imagined against children, & it appears to barely bat an eyelid.

    Somehow, in those circles, a teenager kissing his girlfriend is worse, for them, than a Pastor raping a toddler. People have lost faith over much less.


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    Susan Ankney,

    Hi, Susan. I’m so sorry for these circumstances, for these horrific things you’ve have to carry around for years and years. I stand with you.


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    jyjames: Maybe the gift is not in a building or have a titled position. For example, I often sense the gift of discernment on this blog.

    I have often said that to my spouse, who is convinced that one can only contribute under the auspices of the institutional church. And thanks for the words of encouragement.


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    dee,

    Thanks. I guess my point is this. I know I’m a sinner. I know all about disagreements, lust gluttony, bitterness

    So, I too have wondered about Paul not getting on with people. I can understand if a woman or man in ministry fell.

    Or a normal Christian. The child abuse stuff for me, is just, incomprehensible.

    Here is the irony. Growing up in churches with a non-Christian family, , I resented not having a Christian family. My father was the typical guy who drank, told dirty jokes and bought the odd sexy magazine.

    And yet, one of the “men of God” who I grew up wanting to be like, – was molesting boys. So, the spiritual giant was the kind of man that if my father caught would be wanted to kill.

    I don’t know all of the detials about Hybels. I was never a fan. That passage in his book where he said he got his assistants to get hard core porn that contained child sex to me is just ridiculous.

    I guess I’m naive. I didn’t know that people could just go out and rent it. And if you couldn’t and had to go to some super shaey underground place – can you imagine being the staff worker?

    As for watching it knowingly – i often feel sorry for people on a jury who are forced to examine evidence.
    I wouldn’t want to.

    Actually, does Hybles attand a church now? He spent years talking about the local church. It was seem funny if he weren’t going somewhere.

    I have a personal question for you. Running this blog and writing and reading about this stuff all the time – don’t you get to a place where you just want to leave it all and escape?

    PS My wife is another one who went to a priest to talk about her father. He didn’t believe her. She said at that point she realized that nobody was going to help her – even God, and she decided to kill herself.

    Given all the abuse that is coming out in churches, i think its probably the case that there are thousands, -hundreds of thousands of people around the world who dropped out of church because they or someone they knew was molested. Maybe they never told anyone.


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    Justaguy,

    You know, ‘losing your religion’ may be the best thing that ever happened to you. I don’t say that lightly, nor could I imagine myself saying such a horrible thing a few short years ago.

    For what it’s worth, I too grapple with these issues. And believe me, I weep and wail and yell at God a lot (he knows how I feel, so I may as well say it). I’m no saint, and that’s a huge understatement. But I cannot for the life of me imagine sexual abuse, or child abuse, or wife abuse or, really, anyone being deliberately cruel or hurtful to someone else.

    As I have pondered and wrestled with these things for a few years, it seems more and more to me that there is a very false conception of what being a child of God is throughout much of the institutional church. I do not mean to offend anyone. I am not saying that all the people within are false.

    But I do believe we have been given a lot of faulty theology, that has kept us from truly understanding who God is and what he wants from us. I have pretty much discarded most of the teachings I had on what sin, salvation, righteousness, grace and all the other christian buzzwords mean. I too have spent most of my life in churches that focused on piety and overcoming petty ‘sins’, as if that is what really matters to God. I don’t think it does.

    I think the institutional church, in large part, looks an awful lot like the established Temple Religion of the Jews, which Jesus repeatedly called out as pretentious, self-centered and of little value. And I suspect that the Religious leaders and their followers were just as brainwashed as we have been that their way was the only way. Interesting that Jesus described himself as ‘The Way’.

    Yet most of us are not following The Way of Jesus, but have been seduced into following the way of the religion known as Christianity. That’s not to say that I reject everything this religion teaches; but I can’t help but recall how Jesus warned the people to do as their teachers said, but not as they did. I believe the same holds true today.

    And to be honest, I don’t think the Pharisees of old or the Pharisees of today understand that. I think many of them think that doing religious things, and talking about doctrine is the same as serving God. And outside their doors their is a world of oppression and suffering. People who live in horrific conditions, without proper food or sanitation. People who the ‘good guys’ drop bombs in order to bring ‘freedom’ to the world. And people who are abused, by family, friends, strangers, and church men.

    This is only possible, to my mind, if their religion is gnosis, or knowing about God, rather than truly knowing God, loving God, talking to God, crying out to him when they are afraid, angry, hopeless and hurt. It breaks my heart to know that people are sexually abused, especially by people they love and trust who should be their protectors.

    My nephew was abused by his grandfather, a former minister. When my sister called to tell me, I was simply blown away. Like you, I always viewed this as something that happened somewhere else, to nameless, faceless people; not to people you know and care deeply about.

    So, although it is unlikely to win me many friends, I have ‘lost my religion’; but I have drawn closer and closer to the God who made me, who loves me deeply, who promises to someday wipe every tear from our eyes. He better have some buckets on hand, because I mourn, like you, over the evil and abuse and suffering in this world. And I assure you, when the time for questioning comes, that is going to be the very first thing I ask God to explain to me. Why must the innocent suffer? Please don’t lose your faith, my friend. I truly believe God is loving, good and merciful, and that he will wipe away our confusion and doubts along with our tears. I will be praying for you. You are not alone.


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    Beakerj: Somehow, in those circles, a teenager kissing his girlfriend is worse, for them, than a Pastor raping a toddler.

    Okay, in the church and homeschooling world we were in, it was sinful to even ‘think’ of the opposite sex. Talk about making instant sinners out of every normal young man and woman on the planet! It is simply outrageous, this focus on piety and perfection in righteousness. And yes, well-meaning people, like me, got sucked into a lot of that. Until I saw that it was impractical and unworkable. And yet there was this huge, seemingly well-orchestrated campaign, originating who knows where, to push these ideas relentlessly. It is not, IMO, mere coincidence that one of the tools for pushing them, Joshua Harris, ended up working with CJ Mahaney. There is some sort of ugly octopus underlying all of this faulty theology; and faulty theology can only produce bad fruit.


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    I believe Jimmy Hinton went to the police in order for them to investigate. I’m sure the police have the best skills to do so. What would happen if you (Susan) went to the police? You might find they already know about your cousin. Wouldn’t it be nice to tell the church officials to put that in their pipe and smoke it. I’m sorry, Susan, that your cousin committed these dreadful crimes against you and on you. I don’t think there would have been a round two of emails if it had been me. Perhaps the counsellor you should see is a legal one!!!


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    Beakerj,

    TS00,

    Both of you guys are right on the money with how absurdly dangerous and stultifying some sects of Christianity have gotten, especially with regard to human sexuality.


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    TS00,

    Thanks.

    What i have concluded is this. A lot of the things we say and teach, just haven’t been right.

    In some circles we say that if we tithe, give, be committed to church, submit etc etc, that everything will go right with our lives. And that the contrary is true. That the reason people have problems is that they are “Out there” , and they need to be fully involved in a local church etc etc.

    So, I still believe in God. But, i think we need to realize that just like you have locks on your doors, mechanical checks on your cars and planes, and plan how to get home at night if you’re a woman etc, we need to realize that there is no guarantee that having your kids at a church, church picnic, church camp, means that they will be safe.

    Boys, girls, women need to be taught that you can say no, walk away, scream, kick, tell someone if someone is forcing you or seducing you to do something that is wrong – whether that person is your father, Bill Hybels or the Pope.


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    linda,

    It’s true there are some women – very rare but it does happen–that make false accusations. They will have a history of falsehoods and unstable behavior.


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    Anonymous Grandma: Post

    If no evidence or witnesses could be found, then it would not be taken to trial, same as any other charges that can’t be corroborated. We don’t need a statute of limitations law to prevent that. In many, many cases there is evidence and there are witnesses who remember things very well. Would you support a statute of limitations on murder?


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    Justaguy,

    Justaguy, true religion is not ‘a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality’. True religion is being a kind, safe, trustworthy person whose previously abused wife can sleep in peace and safety next to.

    I think many of us have been in your shoes at one time, dealing with the shock of learning things are not what they seem, that people are often not what they appear to be. You can suddenly wonder if you were the only one who was simple and sincere.

    I have come to realize people are often caught up in the very behavior they rail against. So many of those ministers who preach against homosexuality, for example, have turned out to be engaging secretly in the behavior themselves. Sadly, I think that often times the person has been devious from the beginning, crafting a facade to hide behind. The Bible does warn us many times of just such people.

    So where do we go from here once we learn these things… Just following the humble way of truth and love seems right to me.

    How does one teach his son not to abuse… I am a believer in the old proverb, children learn what they live with. Be the person you’d like to see your children become. It’s not enough to talk the things; children see right through us. You must be the things. Protect them from those who would do them harm, whether they be friends or relatives or pastors. Be honest, be kind, be fair, treat their mother, sisters, pets, and all who are defenseless with respect and love.

    God bless you, Justaguy, I hope you stick around, there are good people who understand here.


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    TS00: It is not, IMO, mere coincidence that one of the tools for pushing them, Joshua Harris, ended up working with CJ Mahaney.

    Nor coincidence that both ended up as darlings of the New Calvinist movement.


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    TS00: I think the institutional church, in large part, looks an awful lot like the established Temple Religion of the Jews, which Jesus repeatedly called out as pretentious, self-centered and of little value. And I suspect that the Religious leaders and their followers were just as brainwashed as we have been that their way was the only way. Interesting that Jesus described himself as ‘The Way’.

    And in your next comment you note: what is impractical and unworkable, possibly because some leaders have never held a real job.

    Jesus, OTOH, was completely workable and practical, which is how God is today. God is not the Task-Master of the world, as some would have us believe and then put us to work on their precious pressured projects. (Hybels classified people as “A” types, his preference.)

    Jesus said his burden is easy and his yoke is light. It is with a moral compass and work-a-day life that is fulfilling from the inside out, with dignity and integrity.


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    jyjames: Jesus said his burden is easy and his yoke is light. It is with a moral compass and work-a-day life that is fulfilling from the inside out, with dignity and integrity.

    Amen! The Christian experience should be full of joy as we worship and serve Him … not a traumatizing church encounter with charlatans and their minions.


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    jyjames,

    Max,

    Building on your thoughts, I don’t think God created us to do church, but to live, work with our hands, create, explore, sing, dance, love, laugh, help our neighbor, hug our kids. The ekklesia was supposed to be more like a support group, where we meet with others with the same goals to share our struggles, encourage one another and hold one another accountable with permission.

    The day the institutional church with officers, power, authority, creeds, sacraments, etc. was substituted for an organic body that would look uniquely like the people it was composed of was a very sad day. And we since it’s all we’ve ever known, it is difficult to imagine anything else. So we wander from church to church, and are old the problem is us.


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    Justaguy,

    I’m sorry to hear you’ve been exposed to predators among us. I’m glad to hear you’re struggling with it. It IS difficult to think about!
    But let me encourage you to NOT lose your faith over it. Humans are sinful. God is not. I’m an abuse survivor, and I still believe in God’s sovereignty, His love, His faithfulness, His mercy and grace, etc.
    There’s also nothing wrong with needing to talk to a gifted counselor, to have someone help you wrestle through everything you’re thinking and feeling.
    Be a man who loves God with his whole heart, mind, soul, strength. Teach others to do the same. Get involved in or support abuse advocacy — educating adults and children about body safety, boundaries, and predators can help slow down abuse statistics (I believe abuse will be on the earth until Christ returns and sin is vanquished).
    Thank you for sharing your raw feelings.


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    Max: Amen! The Christian experience should be full of joy as we worship and serve Him … not a traumatizing church encounter with charlatans and their minions.

    Amen, again.


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    TS00: The ekklesia was supposed to be more like a support group, where we meet with others with the same goals to share our struggles, encourage one another and hold one another accountable with permission.

    And with 18 amazing gifts –
    – gifts, no money/compensation involved, just say thank-you (not with $)
    – each member has at least one gift to give
    – for the benefit of all
    – given by God Himself, the Holy Spirit
    – Wow.
    – Rom. 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph. 4.


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    TS00: I don’t think God created us to do church, but to live, work with our hands, create, explore, sing, dance, love, laugh, help our neighbor, hug our kids

    Agreed. The Biblical concept of “church” clearly indicates that we are to ‘be’ the Church, rather than ‘do’ church. We may not ‘go’ to church, but we can be the Church wherever we go. It was my experience (in SBC life for 70 years) that most church folks never get this – you can’t tell them from the world during the week.

    I was the Church to my grandson when I prayed over his sick body yesterday, when my wife and I extended a kind word to a hurting widow we met at WalMart, when I encouraged my barber in his Christian outreach to men in his barber’s chair earlier this week, when I provide comments about the counterfeit church on TWW. Those who find Church in the organized church are fortunate indeed … but most of the time I’ve experienced the Body of Christ alive and well outside the bricks and mortar. After wrestling with religious stuff for the better part of a century, I’ve come to accept that it’s OK not to go to church (little “c”) as long you are the Church (big “C”). It’s not about me ‘doing’ good things, but allowing Jesus to do good things through me as He leads. The Kingdom has a different scale for measuring faithfulness than membership in places called church, but aren’t the Church.


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    Brian: The offer of help, feels like a preemptive move. Having been in a Americans with Disability Act case, their offer looks like an out of court settlement. Since the blog post also mentioned he went to two sessions, the overall context sounds like an avoidance of civil action.

    Thank you for that. I’m sure you’re right.

    I have no background in law. I do know of a custody case in which one party was concerned that children would be unsafe if unsupervised with the other party.

    The “sane” party demanded a psychological evaluation of both sides. Lawyers believed this showed confidence in their parental fitness. It was a preemptive move.

    This might not apply to the PA Brethren situation at all. But a seemingly compassionate offer of counseling could be used to discredit a survivor: he/she “obviously needs help,” eh?

    Survivors might make a preemptive move by demanding a psych eval for both sides. This technique could combat accusations that survivors are crazy, out for money and fame, or bent on destroying someone’s reputation.


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    Max: you can’t tell them from the world during the week.

    Churches should stop giving out bumper stickers, which do an excellent job of highlighting that their members drive like maniacs. I was even cut off by a car with one of those stickers about the vehicle being unmanned at the Rapture. Scared the heck outta me! 😉


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    Linda George: What would happen if you (Susan) went to the police? You might find they already know about your cousin.

    Wow, Linda George, I had never thought about that before for my own case, or even for my own daughter’s case in being assaulted by the neighbor boy when she was only 4 and as an adult constantly wonders who he may have harmed besides her. Do the police have any sort of filing system for just going in and talking about who hurt us when we were young? Just so that other single stories could become the “two or more witnesses?” Oh, how I don’t want to deal with it. But I always hold back on telling what others what they should do, when I don’t have the bravery to do it myself. Susan, you and others like you are my heroes.


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    Friend: Churches should stop giving out bumper stickers, which do an excellent job of highlighting that their members drive like maniacs.

    According to a waitress I know who has worked 30 years at Red Lobster, “Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers. She is a Christian herself – the real deal – and is always startled at the behavior of others who claim to know Christ. I’m not sure why these folks bother to go to church – they could beat the Sunday rush at restaurants if they didn’t!


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    SiteSeer: If no evidence or witnesses could be found, then it would not be taken to trial, same as any other charges that can’t be corroborated.

    But that assumes that the only evidence that matters is evidence against the accused, which completely misses the point I was making. What if an accused person is innocent (which does happen from time to time) but the passage of time has destroyed all the exculpatory evidence (that is, evidence that disproves the charges)? Would you want to find yourself on trial for a crime you never committed, that allegedly happened decades ago, but the only witnesses who could have proved your innocence have all passed away? Or do believe think that this kind of situation could never happen?

    Trying a murder isn’t quite like trying a rape. With murder, there’s a dead body. The fact of the crime is established before the trial even begins. The trial itself is more of a whodunit, or rather, “Is the defendant the one did it?” Whereas in rape, it hasn’t necessarily been established before the trial whether or not a crime even happened. A rape trial may, in some cases, be about whether or not a crime even occured.

    I suppose it’s possible to compromise: if a rape is promptly reported and if forensic evidence is collected, but the accused perp has fled and can’t be found, then perhaps the statute of limitations could be extended indefinitely. But extending the statute of limitations to prosecute a crime that may or may not have happened decades earlier just seems problematic.


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    “According to a waitress I know who has worked 30 years at Red Lobster, “Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    revolting

    i can think of a few explanations:

    1) the christians have just left their exclusive members only born-again club, and must therefore deign to deal with the inferiors of ‘the world’ on the outside. The riffraff they have to endure.

    2) having just come from church, the christians are far spent making sure they’ve been behaving in kind, gracious and generous ways (begrudgingly so), all of which the church culture absolutely demands of them.

    They feel controlled. The antidote is to express the right to make their own choices, including the choice to turn off graciousness and generosity. They’re worn out by the obligations. They’re tired and they’re done.

    Those are the rules of church engagement: Happy, smiley, helpful, self-sacrificing, giving of your finances and time and energy to the point of creating hardship for your self and your family. As soon as the church hat comes off, so does the required behavior.

    (boy, this sounds like Pyongyang)

    Fruit and Gifts of the Holy Spirit: the local church takes it all for itself.


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    Max:“Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers.She is a Christian herself – the real deal – and is always startled at the behavior of others who claim to know Christ.

    I’ve seen it before also, the cold, hateful stinginess. Way back in the day, as an undergrad in the 1980s, I was invited to dinner at a pastor’s house. He was not my type, the rather well-fed sort of pastor with a hairstyle about 30 years behind the times, the type who would get an angry look on his face and hold up his KJV and talk about “rightly dividing the Word o’ Gawd”—you know what I’m talking about. Anyway,a number of the college students from our campus group were invited and my best friend was going, so I went. About 10 of us in all showed up. We had a decent dinner, along the lines of the average church basement food. But at the end, the pastor at the head of the table said “Alright, that’ll be one dollar each, pass it down the table, come on, now!”

    Now of course that wasn’t a lot of money even then, maybe the equivalent of two, three bucks today, but it didn’t sit well with me. We were all 30 years younger than him, so no one stood up and said “Wait a minute, we were INVITED by you, you never said one word about this being a charged dinner!” All in all it wasn’t a big deal, but still, this guy guy knew he could take advantage of his position and these young people to stuff $10 in his pocket, so by gosh he did. Needless to say, I never went back nor ever attended his church. And I wonder if he was able to take that $10 with him when he died?


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    Max: According to a waitress I know who has worked 30 years at Red Lobster, “Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers.

    Often adding insult to injury with those Gospel Tracts disguised as a folded $20 bill.

    Which is why the original Jerry Falwell had a reputation around Lynchburg as a big tipper. He was trying to go against that reputation.


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    Friend: I was even cut off by a car with one of those stickers about the vehicle being unmanned at the Rapture. Scared the heck outta me!

    Before or after you confirmed there was a live Unraptured driver?


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    SiteSeer: I have come to realize people are often caught up in the very behavior they rail against. So many of those ministers who preach against homosexuality, for example, have turned out to be engaging secretly in the behavior themselves.

    Type Example: Ted Haggard.

    Though sometimes its explainable as “self-medication in secret”. A ManaGAWD cannot appear to be less than Perfect and Godly (an “Invincible Fuehrer”), especially where his orientation/behavior violates Christian culture’s Deepest Taboo. So he will try to treat himself in secret by going Full-Honk against it in Public. Especially if it’s “The OTHER Guy’s Sin”. The more (and LOUDER) he preaches against his Secret Sin, the more he figures he’ll keep it tamped down. (Like Rush Limbaugh vocally fanboying The War On Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction. Or — more extreme and sinister — Oberstguppenfuehrer Heydrich planning and setting The Holocaust in motion to hide/destroy any evidence for the rumor he was really part Jew.)

    Until one day it all blows sky-high.


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    TS00: It is simply outrageous, this focus on piety and perfection in righteousness. And yes, well-meaning people, like me, got sucked into a lot of that. Until I saw that it was impractical and unworkable. And yet there was this huge, seemingly well-orchestrated campaign, originating who knows where, to push these ideas relentlessly

    I chalk a lot of that dynamic up to the opportunity for “More Pious/Perfect Than Thou” One-Upmanship.

    Zero-Sum Game, where the only way to Elevate yourself is to crush someone else down.


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    Beakerj: Somehow, in those circles, a teenager kissing his girlfriend is worse, for them, than a Pastor raping a toddler.

    Because the first is LUST and SIN among the filthy lowborn while the second is Privilege of Pastoral Rank, Touch Not Mine Anointed.


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    dee: Sadly, unless there is a video of the abuse occurring and preferably 2-3 witnesses, he said/she said will always be the played card.

    And a successful and experienced Predator will have pre-groomed third parties and authorities to give “the Predator said” the most weight in a he said/she said.

    Some of these guys start and stay twenty chess moves ahead of everyone else. I witnessed one third-party grooming setup that took TEN YEARS before the Manipulator made his checkmate move.

    Like no-life Fanboys, Predators and Manipulators will always have this advantage. Because the rest of us have jobs and lives; Predating and Manipulating is where “They live and move and have their being” 24/7/365.


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    Law Prof: … invited to dinner at a pastor’s house … rather well-fed sort of pastor with a hairstyle about 30 years behind the times … a number of the college students from our campus group were invited … at the end, the pastor at the head of the table said “Alright, that’ll be one dollar each, pass it down the table, come on, now!” …

    We call that sort of hairdo “preacher-hair”, it was slick to go with his character!

    I’ve known several “pastors” of that sort … always interested more in bucks than souls. We were in a church once that did a tremendous outreach to the youth in our community for a special service. We attracted over 100 teenagers, most had never been to church. Before the service, they had a pizza dinner for them. They were a little unruly, not knowing how to act in church, you know. But they were there and positioned to hear the Gospel (or so we thought). Instead, the pretty-boy preacher with his slick hairdo proceeded to scold them for acting badly prior to the service after the church had “blown so much money” on them!

    I know the Scripture says not to call anybody a jerk (that you would be in danger of hell-fire), but for the life of me I don’t know why so many jerks end up in the pulpit!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Some of these guys start and stay twenty chess moves ahead of everyone else. I witnessed one third-party grooming setup that took TEN YEARS before the Manipulator made his checkmate move.

    Witchcraft is characterized by manipulation, intimidation and domination.


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    TS00: Building on your thoughts, I don’t think God created us to do church, but to live, work with our hands, create, explore, sing, dance, love, laugh, help our neighbor, hug our kids. The ekklesia was supposed to be more like a support group, where we meet with others with the same goals to share our struggles, encourage one another and hold one another accountable with permission.

    The day the institutional church with officers, power, authority, creeds, sacraments, etc. was substituted for an organic body that would look uniquely like the people it was composed of was a very sad day. And we since it’s all we’ve ever known, it is difficult to imagine anything else. So we wander from church to church, and are old the problem is us.

    Totally agree with this.

    I remember in church those people who say “nature is my church” being derided and mocked. It didn’t occur to me that that was just a control tactic to keep us there even after we see the hypocrisy. Now I am one of those people and am so much more happy and at peace.


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    siteseer–yes they are thankfully rare and sadly usually unstable. But given they exist our laws are “innocent until proven guilty” and our sue happy society means churches must take a CYA stand until one side or the other is proven to be the truthful one.

    I can well imagine how blindsided a congregation would be at accusations against a well liked pastor. And think it prudent to take no sides until the investigation is finished.

    But once that happens, if the allegations are true, time to drop the hammer on the perp. And if untrue, time to use that to either (depending on her mental state) drop the hammer on the accuser or insist legally on some meaningful help for her, even if it requires involuntary commitment.

    In my friend’s case, she always walks away scott free while the guys face ruined reputations, marriages, loss of friends, employment trouble that follows for life, etc. Folks tend to think where there is smoke there is fire even when there is not.

    So again, I think a thorough investigation with moving slowly until it is finished is prudent, then much stronger action against the guilty. Just my opinion.


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    SiteSeer,

    🙂


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    Muff Potter,

    Well for one, since it happened 40 years ago, if she went to the police they’d likely say “we are REALLY sorry, but it’s been too long. We can’t help you.” She’d Probably get more sympathy though.


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    Anonymous Grandma
    There’s something else that the pastor overlooked. If this “isolated incident” (which was actually an ongoing campaign of sexual abuse) really happened, then the perpetrator’s denial is a sin in the here and now. In other words, he’s a liar right now, not forty years ago. And not an innocuous little “white lie,” either. That alone should disqualify him from serving in ministry.

    I’m so very, very tired of churches where truth is considered an obstacle to ministry.

    EXACTLY!!!


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    Max: Witchcraft is characterized by manipulation, intimidation and domination.

    Either you’re using an inside-the-bubble definition of Witchcraft or you’re making no sense to those of us in the mainstream. The word carries different baggage inside and outside.

    To me, Witchcraft is using supernatural/magical powers (real or claimed) for harm, intimidation, and/or personal gain at the expense of others.


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    Max means witchcraft in a broader sense. At bottom, the real issue with witchcraft is not so much about magical powers, those are just a means to an end. The end is the control the universe, at least that part of it that affects a person, to be the “god” of it—without the actual God. People who just want what they want, all else be #@$%&*, will often fall into that sort of selfish mindset, and at the end of the day, the heart of it is not really different from witchcraft.

    I tend to think much of what’s called name-it-and-claim-it is about that witchcraft mindset, and the authoritarian cults are not much different—they involve the manipulation and control of others to get what leaders and enablers want. Many of these people, I just don’t think there’s any room for Jesus in their paradigms, His name and fame is just a tool some use to get what they want.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: To me, Witchcraft is using supernatural/magical powers (real or claimed) for harm, intimidation, and/or personal gain at the expense of others.

    Some wiccans would disagree. They’re reclaiming the word. For what it’s worth, I don’t think they’re any closer to the original earth goddess worshippers than modern day christians are to the wandering preacher who started that faith (Paul or Jesus – take your pick).


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    Law Prof: witchcraft … authoritarian cults are not much different — they involve the manipulation and control of others to get what leaders and enablers want

    Exactly. The Bible talks about leaders who do this as having “familiar spirits” rather than the Holy Spirit. Manipulation, intimidation, and domination are not fruit of the Holy Spirit, but of another spirit. Believers are challenged to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God” (1 John 4:1) … authoritarian and personality cults in church are the products of spirits that are not from God, IMO.


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    Max,

    Yep yep yep


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    Max,

    The practice of leveraging human relationships for personal gain is human nature after the Fall in full swing or MO. Happens everywhere.

    The fact that the church should be different, however, is where this can get lost.

    “Walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,” Gal. 5:16. Thus, as you mention, it behooves us to sense if church relationships pull us in the direction of spirits or the Spirit of God. Night and day difference. Heaven and hell. But oh, so subtle to discern sometimes, the Bible warns.

    Steps for congregants posted on a church leadership website:
    1. Visit 2. Meet 3. Introduce 4. Connect 5. Engage 6. Covenant.

    And, for the ones who visit and don’t follow the steps, it was advised that they be ignored as they are “consumers” and a waste of time.

    The covenant requires time, work, and money, without regard to the gifts the Holy Spirit has bestowed on each member. Gifts that apparently this church doesn’t need. Like, maybe, the gift of discernment, for example.


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    jyjames: Gifts that apparently this church doesn’t need. Like, maybe, the gift of discernment, for example.

    That spiritual gift in the pew scares the living daylights out of modern-day pulpiteers! IMO, the greatest need of American Christians is to pray for discernment … the spirits are out and about to disrupt the church.


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    Maybe not for this situation with the COB, but for future situations would the JDoe app be helpful?


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    Max: That spiritual gift in the pew scares the living daylights out of modern-day pulpiteers! IMO, the greatest need of American Christians is to pray for discernment …

    Don’t forget WISDOM.

    Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.


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    Max: IMO, the greatest need of American Christians is to pray for discernment …

    Discernment in the original sense:
    The Ability to see beneath the surface to the substance; to see the truth behind the appearance.

    Before Screwtape and Wormwood redefined it to mean “Seeing DEMONS Under Every Bed”.


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    Max: The Bible talks about leaders who do this as having “familiar spirits” rather than the Holy Spirit. Manipulation, intimidation, and domination are not fruit of the Holy Spirit, but of another spirit.

    I’m familiar with the Contemporary-Supernatural fiction of Manly Wade Wellman (based on Appalachian folk-magic lore) and similar Pennsylvania Dutch “pow-wow” lore.

    In both, you find Witch-Men/Hexen using their Familiar Spirits (and their supernatural powers in general) to force their will on others and for Extortion of goods and money (by threatening to Hex them).


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Don’t forget WISDOM.

    Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.

    Good point. All 18 gifts working together, Body of Christ.


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    This distresses me greatly! I didn’t read all the comments. Did Jimmy offer his perspective? Imagine the perp’s story differing! I hate these kind of church responses-every stinking time! This brave woman deserves so much more. They aren’t even addressing her concerns. I guess boys will be boys but then they become pastors so its all good. Puke!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Don’t forget WISDOM.

    Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.

    Amen! The two must go hand-in-hand if the Church is going to detect and deal with bad actors in its midst. I was young and now am old – I’ve found that most of “discernment” is simple observation … keeping your ears and eyes open about what is going on around you. I have visited churches where the message and the messenger were definitely off-track and I left thinking “What in the world is wrong with those folks – don’t they see what this guy is doing?!”


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    “I ask you to not share your letter with any other people. It is not helpful to widen the scope of this beyond those personally involved.”

    This is exactly what rapist say to the person they have just raped.

    Christianity is the safest place for rapist.

    The man who raped me told me not to tell anybody. It was my job to be in pain, scared, and ashamed. He concluded he should not be ashamed, scared, or in pain. I was paying and he was making sure he did not have to pay.


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    Wayne Borean: Many do not continue offending, and indeed are horrified at what they did when younger.

    Wayne, I am so sorry that you suffered child sexual abuse.
    Those who are horrified at what they did should apologize to their victims. Every time a victim thinks about their rapist, they relive the trauma. So, in the mind of the victim its repeat and repeat. How many victims ever get to hear an acknowledgment and apology from their teenage rapists about what a horrid thing they did? As long as they are still trying to hide it for self-preservation, I do not trust that they won’t strike again.


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    Wayne Borean,

    Wayne, I was really saddened to read your story. My heart just sinks knowing of a child being abused as you were. I’m sorry you were robbed of your childhood and your innocence, your life, really. What happened to you was horribly wrong and evil. It took a great deal of courage to come out and speak your truth.

    You say this was an older male relative. I’m wondering if he preyed on many others in your extended family, as well, perhaps including the previous generation.

    You mentioned that you had acted out sexually. I’m curious your thoughts on how one should handle such a history if he were to want to become a pastor?

    Thanks for telling your story, Wayne. Keep speaking truth. I wish you continued recovery.


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    linda: So I am wary, but slow to act without a proper investigation.

    I see this as flipped. You should be quick to act and remove the alleged abuser, if temporarily, and then do the investigation. MOST especially when children are involved.


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    Anonymous Grandma: Regarding the statute of limitations, I’m not sure that abolishing it would help many victims. It’s already hard enough to get a sex crime prosecuted when the crime is recent and there’s evidence available. How much harder would it be to get a prosecutor to take it to court decades later, after the evidence has been lost, or when the corroborating witnesses may have long since forgotten the details?

    You’re assuming the offender hasn’t continued offending. Generally it seems to be one case comes forward, and then you find the other 10-100 that were quiet. And some of the statutes are ridiculously limited in time past adulthood, so we’re not always talking 40 years.


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    Justaguy: And then I find that a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality and seemed so holy – had molested several boys.

    And now it seems pretty clear that this crazy focus on ‘purity’ was actually a *tell* that something was wrong with that person.


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    Law Prof: But at the end, the pastor at the head of the table said “Alright, that’ll be one dollar each, pass it down the table, come on, now!”

    I can’t even imagine! I would refuse to pay.


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    Patti: Those who are horrified at what they did should apologize to their victims. … As long as they are still trying to hide it for self-preservation, I do not trust that they won’t strike again.

    Yes.


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    Lea: I can’t even imagine! I would refuse to pay.

    Today, the way I am now, as a middle-aged guy who has maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder for these types, I’d have caused a scene. It’d have gotten ugly. Last time I dealt with someone who went way off track like this (but a different issue), someone who invited us over for dinner, who claimed to follow Jesus, but then started saying crazy stuff, I told him and his wife exactly what I thought of him and their “Christianity”, my wife did likewise, and we got up, told the kids “That’s it, we’re leaving” and we walked straight out the front door with him following us outside saying “I’ll pray for you!” and me saying in response: “I don’t want your prayers, see ya.”

    That thing back in my college days, it’s not like it was a big deal with the money and all, it’s just that I never in my life heard of someone inviting a group of college students over for dinner, then shaking them down for money. It’s not like it was a fundraiser, either. Nothing of the sort. Just a guy getting back pretty much every penny he put into the meal—and in 1980s money, that’d be about what he put into it.


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    Justaguy: And then I find that a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality and seemed so holy – had molested several boys.

    Self-treating in secret.
    “I have X problem, so Everybody Must!”

    Plus Displacement Behavior — when things are spiraling completely out-of-control, Find Something You CAN Control and Micromanage It To Death 24/7, the more Zealous the better.


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    Max: I have visited churches where the message and the messenger were definitely off-track and I left thinking “What in the world is wrong with those folks – don’t they see what this guy is doing?!”

    Which makes YOU the Crazy One.
    “WHAT’s YOUR Problem, Man? YOU’re The One With The Problem!!!!!”

    Remember Cassandra from the Iliad (Trojan War)? Cursed by the gods of Olympus with a gift of Perfect Prophecy — that Nobody Would Ever Believe.


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    Max: Amen!The two must go hand-in-hand if the Church is going to detect and deal with bad actors in its midst.I was young and now am old – I’ve found that most of “discernment” is simple observation … keeping your ears and eyes open about what is going on around you.I have visited churches where the message and the messenger were definitely off-track and I left thinking “What in the world is wrong with those folks – don’t they see what this guy is doing?!”

    It’s unlikely, but at least possible that one time you visited a church that I attended. Some of those people sitting in the pews with the smiles on their faces or thoughtful looks are gritting their teeth inside saying the same things as you, but convincing themselves they’ll stay top be a light in darkness, or stay to try and speak reason to the leadership and effect a change, or staying because their mom/dad/brother/sister/best friend is going there and they want to be close by to help them when the whole thing collapses.

    Some of those people are thinking the same things as you, thinking “Doesn’t everyone else see just how heretical/disturbed/crazy/narcissistic/evil pastor is?” And maybe the next person over is thinking the same thing back at them. But of course, cultic churches, abusive places, don’t exactly encourage open communications, they promote a culture of fear where you don’t feel comfortable just walking up to a friend and saying “Uh, what the heck do you think Pastor Ted was thinking when he said that!” You might be surprised.


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    jyjames: Headless Unicorn Guy: Don’t forget WISDOM.
    Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.
    Good point. All 18 gifts working together, Body of Christ.

    During my time in-country, whenever “Gifts of the Spirit” came up, there was only ONE: TONGUES! TONGUES! TONGUES!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Don’t forget WISDOM.
    Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.

    Both are described by Paul in a group of what he calls manifestations of the spirit. AWWBA, the so-called “charismata” or (loose translation) “grace gifts” are actually in Romans 12 and include giving, encouraging and helping. I think any reasonable person would agree that we no longer need those, because we have the Scriptures.

    The problem with both discernment and wisdom is the extent to which they could imply extra-biblical revelation. The real danger here is not so much that someone might claim to have a “gift of discernment” (other than by simply checking any individual against the exhaustive and comprehensive list of sins/sinners gifted to us in the scriptures). It’s that someone else may then look at the same list, and claim to have a gift of tongues or prophecy that is not a direct quote from scripture. Or worse, a gift of miracle or healing which cannot manifest as a direct quote from scripture. Once that happens, you have the nightmare scenario: a free-for-all where we all peddle nonsense, worship demons and practice witchcraft.

    We don’t need wisdom or discernment, ISTM; we just need to go BackToScripture. In fact, we don’t need “Jesus” either – we need the scriptures.


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    Law Prof: Today, the way I am now, as a middle-aged guy who has maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder for these types, I’d have caused a scene.

    Oh yes I agree. I’m thinking as a grown person. I don’t know what I would have done at 18…


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    Nick Bulbeck: We don’t need wisdom or discernment, ISTM; we just need to go BackToScripture. In fact, we don’t need “Jesus” either – we need the scriptures.

    Recite Party Line, Comrades!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    We don’t need the Party Line – we need scripture!

    … and so on, until the air runs out.


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    Nick Bulbeck: We don’t need the Party Line – we need scripture!

    These days, Is There a Difference?

    (I’ve been on the receiving end of Weaponized SCRIPTURE; have you?)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: Nick Bulbeck: We don’t need the Party Line – we need scripture!

    These days, Is There a Difference?

    (I’ve been on the receiving end of Weaponized SCRIPTURE; have you?)

    That’s pretty much the only use for scripture in these places. I’m only beginning, after a couple of years break, to go back to scripture for personal reading. I needed time to erase all of the twisting and abusing I had heard for so many years.

    Now, I am seeking, as when I was much younger, to read it like love letters from God, to speak, inform, encourage, comfort and challenge me. Scripture is too beautiful and precious to be turned into a weapon to hurt and destroy.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I think we’ve all seen this, haven’t we?

    There’s been some discussion here about witchcraft. I agree with Jack that Wiccans would dispute the claim that they’re trying to deceive and control people for personal advantage. The motives and aspirations of typical new-agers and pagan practitioners are no less noble than those of typical christians or para-church subgroups (including “churches”, which are also para-church organisations). Nor are they any more deceitful or self-deceived. Of all the recorded sayings of/about Jesus, the one I’m most reminded of is he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd.

    I believe it was yourself, HUG, who drew a very interesting analogy here a while back. That is, between medieval sorcerers chanting spells at one another from a grimoire or spell-book, and fundagelicals firing scriptural proof-texts at one another from the bible. There’s something occultic about both, to my mind.

    During the earthly ministry of Jesus, there was at least one point where the crowd’s enthusiasm began to boil over and they intended to make him king by force. IOW, to exploit him as a proxy for their own dreams. I don’t blame them for dreaming, and I don’t know whether I would have done any better had I lived their lives. Either way, Jesus was having none of it and withdrew himself, so that they couldn’t use him that way. The bible can’t do that, however; it can’t prevent itself from being used as a sock-puppet by those who claim it as a proxy for God Himself rather than as a God-given calibrating instrument.


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    I grew up Old German Baptist Brethren (this denomination split from the Church of the Brethren in the 1880’s). I can attest that child abuse and child sexual abuse is RAMPANT in that denomination. They do not notify authorities, and if you, the victim does, you too can lose your membership for not turning the other cheek. For a denomination that claims to be non resistant, they are anything but to small children. The abuse I and others dealt with, leaves scars many of us cannot overcome to this day.


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    Patti: Wayne, I am so sorry that you suffered child sexual abuse.
    Those who are horrified at what they did should apologize to their victims. Every time a victim thinks about their rapist, they relive the trauma. So, in the mind of the victim its repeat and repeat. How many victims ever get to hear an acknowledgment and apology from their teenage rapists about what a horrid thing they did? As long as they are still trying to hide it for self-preservation, I do not trust that they won’t strike again.

    And that sort of attitude is why I held off telling my story for so long.

    Wayne


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    SiteSeer:
    Wayne Borean,

    Wayne, I was really saddened to read your story. My heart just sinks knowing of a child being abused as you were. I’m sorry you were robbed of your childhood and your innocence, your life, really. What happened to you was horribly wrong and evil. It took a great deal of courage to come out and speak your truth.

    You say this was an older male relative. I’m wondering if he preyed on many others in your extended family, as well, perhaps including the previous generation.

    You mentioned that you had acted out sexually. I’m curious your thoughts on how one should handle such a history if he were to want to become a pastor?

    Thanks for telling your story, Wayne. Keep speaking truth. I wish you continued recovery.

    I strongly suspect he did assault others, but I have no proof. I do intend to talk to the ones I think he may have hurt, but I need to write more of my story first. There’s details that I didn’t include, because it made more sense to put them in a separate article.

    I have no idea about pastors. Since I don’t believe in any god (or gods), I’m not the right person to ask.

    Thanks for your kind words.

    Wayne


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    Carmelita,

    I’m so sorry, Carmelita. 🙁