Forgiveness is a virtue of the brave. Indira Gandhi
Will we actually see churches booted from the SBC? Probably not.
I have some bad news. I think it is highly unlikely that any churches will get *disfellowshipped* from the SBC. I now predict that the SBC leaders will meet with these recalcitrant churches who will then produce *crocodile tears.” That church will then adopt the recommended procedures, publicly repent and be forgiven. Standing ovations will be the norm. Watch for the leaders to get on the ground on a stage somewhere and pray feverishly and shed many tears. There is no group who can do this like the Baptists.
I’ve been suspicious about this process since Greear first announced the ten churches they were considering being given the title “not in friendly cooperation* with the SBC. In my previous post, I expressed concerns that Ed Young at 2nd Baptist and CJ Mahaney at SGC Louisville know where the bodies are buried. I believe this could possibly lead to a path in which they would be reinstated.
I also believe that tiny churches with little influence in the SBC could be the ones who might be chosen to be “examples of how really, really serious we are.”
I hope that I’m wrong about this. I would love to see SGC get the boot. The same goes for 2nd Baptist. They deserve to be embarrassed. I’m praying that my prediction for reinstatement (or never getting kicked out) is proven wrong. If so, I will be sure to point it out. If I forget-remind me.
Phillip Bethancourt who serves on the SBC Sex Abuse Study Group released this following information via Twitter. Read this carefully. Make sure you understand that nothing is going to happen now. This will take a minimum of 18 months to work its way through SBC committees.
JD Greear is quoted in Southern Baptist head calls for reforms, potential removal of multiple Houston churches
This is the part of his presentation that caused me to wonder if anything will happen to these churches. It appears he wants to cause them to simply demonstrate that they will go along with certain safety recommendations. JD Greear attempted clarify that he doesn’t want to *disfellowship* (love the Baptist lingo.)
But in his Monday speech, Greear stressed that autonomy was not an excuse for inaction.
He also called on an SBC work group to “take the necessary steps to determine if 10 churches identified in the Chronicle’s report still “meet the standards of having a faith and practice which closely identifies” with that of the Convention.
“I am not calling for disfellowshipping (expelling from the SBC ) any of these churches at this point but these churches must be called upon to give assurance to the SBC that they have taken the necessary steps to correct their policies and procedures with regards to abuse and care for survivors,” Greear said. “Our goal here is never disfellowship, but correction.”
Letter to an SEBTS Professor
I’ve waited a long time to write this letter to you. I was kind of hoping you might reach out to Deb and me to say you were sorry when we were proven correct. I’m trying to figure out if a bunch of your SBC buddies are hoping that Al *Papa Bear* Mohler’s apology was meant for all BFFs for all time. I never really understood the SBC’s unwritten rules of the game.
I’m terribly sorry for the pain that you have endured as a family and I’ve prayed for all of you.Really and truly. As you know, my family walked a similar road. However, years have passed and I think it is time to address an email that you sent to Deb which was also meant for me.
You remember the back story, I’m sure. We trusted you and confided in you since you, at that time, also functioned as a pastor. We shared with you our concerns regarding two situations. One was Mark Driscoll and the other Was CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries. We were trying to figure out why your seminary, and many others, were endorsing these men by inviting them to speak or some of you guys going to their churches to speak.
The problems with these two men were crystal clear in our minds. We couldn’t understand why they received such support from Baptist leaders. Neither of these men were in the SBC at that time but they were members of the vaunted *The Gospel Coalition.* They hung around groups like The Council of Biblical™ Manhood and Womanhood and heartily endorsed complementarianism in increasingly bizarre ways.(You remember Driscoll’s description of women as pe$%# homes, right? )
I know that JD Greear is a celebrity at your seminary. He graduated from there, successfully formed a megachurch and continues to teach. Was it his influence? I found this tweet of his from that same timeframe in which in which Greear says that Mahaney and Driscoll are:
two of my absolute favorite speakers.
What is wrong with us?
Is that what prompted you to write us an email questioning what was *wrong with the two of us?* I wish I had saved it. I showed it to my husband and a few other people at the time. All were rather taken aback. Basically your slap-upside-our-heads went something like this. You listed all sorts of famous SBC leaders like Papa Bear Mohler. You included the names of SBC seminary leaders who supported them and also the names of famous SBC pastors and various hangers on.
Your argument went something like this. Look at all of these fancy pants leaders. If they support Driscoll and Mahaney, what is wrong with the two of you? Wow. That sure was a way to make your point. But it was a bad point since it is not found in Scripture.
The *what is wrong with you* fallacy.
I know you know your Bible. I am a big picture person when I view Scripture. I try to see how a particular argument fits into the overall trajectory of Scripture. So, as I contemplated this, I discovered that God rarely used the so called intellectuals of the day or the well-placed celebrities to get his messages across. That even includes the One who came to save us.
- David- a kid with a rock and slingshot and a trusting heart
- Jesus-a no account from Nazareth
- Fisherman -to be His disciples
- A tax collector
- John the Baptist: a rather oddly dressed man of the desert who had an unusual diet
- A prostitute who thought Jesus was the most precious person she had met
- A woman who had many husbands who told the world about this man who knew all about her.
- Esther who was essentially trafficked by her uncle
There are so many more but you get the picture. God gives ordinary people like me the Holy Spirit who reveals some rather unusual things to regular people.
Sadly, your final response was to ghost one of us on Facebook. I’ve since learned that this is a common response in your tribe. You ghosted someone who cared deeply about your family. I know you know that is true. So, why?
There was nothing wrong with us.
I remember speaking with news media in Seattle who were trying to figure out why Driscoll was so widely revered. I told them it was a tribal thing. The tribe decides who’s in and who’s out.When this happens, the only thing one can hope for is that a man like Driscoll goes so over the top, he can’t be ignored. While you guys were so excited to have Driscoll come and discuss the so called skanko Roman sexual culture of UNC, I was wondering why you didn’t see how odd he was? Why you didn’t see the skanko sexual culture of Mars Hill which was being driven into the ground.
We were right about Driscoll. Marks Hill imploded.
Then the reports of abuses in the Sovereign Grace Ministries churches were reaching a fevered pitch. Yet Mahaney was a vaunted speaker. Did you ever listen to him? I did, quite a bit. If his sermons are any indication of what is taught at SEBTS, then I can well imagine why people are fleeing the church. Did you ever wonder about the victims? What if it had been one of your kids? Do you know your support brought more pain to the victims? Do you care?
We were right about Mahaney. He fled the east coast and joined the SBC. Now, this favorite preacher may get booted. For sure, he’s been kicked to the curb for the moment. Would you still invite him to address whatever church you worship in at the moment?
Why did all of you bright men allow this to occur?
I have to ask the question. Because of your views on strict complementarianism, have you relegated women to the back of the room where you don’t have to listen to them? I’ve received a number of emails from female SEBTS students claiming they feel like second class citizens. Do I have any reason to doubt their complaints? Given the way you responded to us, I can empathize.
Did you not listen because we were women and only men can remark on those in leadership? I’ve seen this taught in your tribe. I even think an SGM woman said something similar. It seems to me that women trumped you on calling out these two celebrities. Why is that? Where was the Holy Spirit in your life?
I’m not mad. I’m grateful.
I know you are Reformed and believe that God is sovereign. I’m not Reformed but I also believe God is sovereign. Of course I was hurt by your email. But that was a decade ago. I’ve since come to the conclusion that God wanted me to see the way top Baptist seminary professors try to sideline women who challenge the status quo. It prepared me to minister to the number of people who have been treated in a similar fashion.
I forgave you a long time ago. I want you to know that I’ve thought about your email many times in the last number of years. I was able to put it under “hard things I’ve learned about Baptist evangelical intellectuals.*
In the end, I don’t know if you still believe that Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney are wonderful speakers and pastors. If you do, then I give up. If you don’t, wouldn’t it be the right thing to let us know?
PS-I think SEBTS should tell what really happened with David Nelson. The health thing was bogus. I know and I may say something in the near future. I’ve told people who’ve written me already.
To our readers: I’m willing to answer questions about this post. There is a good reason I won’t put his name out there. He, and others, know who he is.
1 Batta Boom
Thank you for all your hard work. In the midst of all these types of situations, what has become of the mandatory reporter issue? As a nurse, I was a mandatory reporter. As a police officer, my husband was a mandatory reporter. Am I to understand those in church leadership, volunteer positions, etc. are not mandatory reporters?
Thanks for your insight.
Is your life insurance paid up? Could you install an escape hatch under the kitchen table for the pugs and me?
Got a great umbrella rider. I live a few miles away. Do Baptists throw grenades through windows?
Nah, the movement in throwing a grenade resembles dancing.
The explosion is a demonstrative expression of charismatic gifting?
Some states do not yet requite pastors to report. People are working at getting the laws changed in all 50 states. In some states, volunteers may not be required to report if they hold a nonpaying position and are not considered to be the caretakers at any given moment. Again states are quickly changing the laws.We are expecting some announcements soon.
See this: https://youtu.be/a54iqEr1flQ
The Southern Baptist Convention doesn’t hate child rape like they don’t hate money, power, or attention.
The Southern Baptist Convention is about one thing and one thing only. Manpower.
Rape is about manpower. Of course, they are going to minimize rape and coddle child rapist.
” … Ed Young at 2nd Baptist and CJ Mahaney at SGC Louisville know where the bodies are buried …” (Dee)
Well, I don’t know about Pastor Young, but Pastor Mahaney could probably make your ears burn if he started squealing on the New Calvinist elite. What does a member of Al’s little playgroup really know about the T4G and TGC cast of characters?
The letter has a lot to unpack. I didn’t have many New Cal professors there, as I started before the takeover, but I definitely felt like a second class citizen when I got a bunch of mean notes during preaching class, even though Dr. Robinson made it clear that was unacceptable.
It wasn’t until years later when I understood what happened with the takeover that I also understood why I got forced out only 4 hours from graduation. You (Akin) said that MA programs were unacceptable in seminaries, but it’s interesting to note that they were also predominately female programs. I still would like to know what led to their reinstatement. Pressure from trustees? Or women had been sufficiently chased out by your horrible theology?
I would also like to know what happened with David Nelson. It saddens my heart, because he was one of my favorite professors. But even in the past year, a close friend was arrested for spying on young girls. I never thought he could do such a thing. Family and friends can commit horrible crimes.
“Phillip Bethancourt who serves on the SBC Sex Abuse Study Group …” (Dee)
… is Russell Moore’s right hand man at ERLC … Russell Moore was Al Mohler’s right hand man at SBTS. Mohler is everywhere … everywhere!
“God gives ordinary people like me the Holy Spirit who reveals some rather unusual things to regular people.” (Dee)
The clergy just can’t handle the laity when they operate under the inspiration and power of the Holy Spirit.
Several years ago, I had a friend who was a professor at an SBC-affiliated college. Visiting him on campus one time, he said he would like to introduce me to a leading professor in the school’s religious studies department. He cautioned me not to get “too heavy” in my discussions with him since the good professor got very nervous around laymen who knew anything spiritual! Good Lord! What’s the matter with these people?!!
“While you guys were so excited to have Driscoll come and discuss the so called skanko Roman sexual culture of UNC, I was wondering why you didn’t see how odd he was?” (Dee)
Because Driscoll was a key player in the New Calvinist movement! They needed him. At one time, ALL the new reformers wanted to be like the potty-mouth preacher from Seattle. He fired them up to scramble to SBC seminaries to get reformed before striking out on their own to restore the gospel to all those millions of poor Southern Baptists who had lost truth along the way. Driscoll was a great marketer for the new reformation, but when his liabilities exceeded his assets, they threw him under the bus … “Driscoll who?” … now it will be “Mahaney who?” … anywho, I wish we could put all of them in our rearview mirror.
“In the end, I don’t know if you still believe that Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney are wonderful speakers and pastors. If you do, then I give up. If you don’t, wouldn’t it be the right thing to let us know?” (Dee)
At least Mohler said he was wrong about Pastor Mahaney … kind of … sort of. Don’t expect any genuine display of sackcloth and ashes from SBC’s New Calvinist elites – they are not going to show any cracks in their armor at this point. That is not the “this” that they came into the world for such a time as “this” for. They figure this too will pass and they can get back to business Calvinizing the SBC – they were sure on a roll before all this sex abuse stuff came up.
“God has not given us a spirit of fear…..” :/
Dee, I’m sure you are right about TPTB applying some brakes / inertia to these plans- but I do believe the counterbalance is the certainty that, just as with the Roman Catholic scandal, more injured people will start coming out of the woodwork to be heard. The press won’t be muzzled either, and the pressure won’t lift. It’s disturbing that that’s what it will take, but the fire will either refine people or burn them off. We may be surprised who goes which way. I don’t believe the SBC hierarchy is either as stubborn or glacial as the RC, and I hope some significant changes are made while the iron is hot. That’s the best hope. I do understand and feel some cynicism as well though.
And about your letter- I wouldn’t even know what questions to ask, but I think what you HAVE said speaks for itself, sadly.
Check out the Stronger Men’s Conference in late April in Missouri. One of the three speakers is Mark Driscoll. What were the planners of this conference thinking ?
I could use Benny’s white jacket trick when running through airports.
There will be a lot of talking while the iron is hot, but as soon as the iron cools, it will be business as usual.
The SBC leadership has nothing but their ability to persuade to make anything happen at the church level. Hopefully there will be some changes made to the SBC entities that will help, but no real changes will happen at the local church level because “abuse doesn’t happen at my church”.
I am afraid that there is only one way to make significant change; lots and lots of lawsuits.
501c3 Excuse: “Bad Company, Perhaps?”
Rachael Denhollander is pure sound awareness in a sea of crippling noise.
“…it is concern for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His church that motivates me and countless others to call for these concerns to be taken seriously, and subjected to an open and transparent investigation by a qualified and trusted organization…” -Rachael Denhollander
“♪♩♪♩hum, hum, hum…They picked up a bible and threw away the Sòn
Now all these 501c3 pulpits look the same
Dirty for Dirty
Double cross for Double cross
Blackmail for Blackmail
Manipulation for the Manipulated
Birds of a feather…
Concealment of dirty little secrets
Church bells ringing
Bad company till the day they die?”
Based on your comment that they may pick on a small rural church to send the message, then given what I read about Bolivar Baptist in rural Denton County, I would have no problem kicking them out the door.
The pastor started having sex with a 14-year-old, impregnated her at 18, pays child support and is STILL the pastor at that church? They NEED to go. If that “sends a message” then it needs to be sent.
The ones in Garland and Bedford appear to have made changes to policies, so they should at least be put on watch for a couple of years to see if that is the case.
But no, Second Baptist won’t be gone. If the SBC kicks out one megachurch, how many more will follow? Too many for them to take the risk.
“Your argument went something like this. Look at all of these fancy pants leaders. If they support Driscoll and Mahaney, what is wrong with the two of you?” (Dee)
That’s sort of like saying “Woman, get behind me!”
New Calvinist treatment of women is becoming legendary. My earliest memory of a Southern Baptist leader vocally subordinating women dated back to a Q&A session young Al Mohler had when assuming the presidency of SBTS in 1993. Note his chilling stare in this video clip from that day:
Rachael Denhollander discusses the Sovereign Grace Scandal:
He has “Night of the Living Dead” shadows under his eyes.
In California pastors are mandatory reporters. Don’t know about other states.
Dee, I fear that you are correct on all counts. I just want to thank you for being one of the few voices of truth in the church today. I think it’s fitting that God has raised up women to speak truth to the stiff necked and hard headed men who have run the church into the ground while being so full of themselves and so spiritually unselfaware.
I guess the commenters on that news article owe Scarborough an acknowledgement too.
So why mention David Nelson? Just say it.
“Disfellowshipping” can cut both ways.
ARBCA has been losing congregations that, for various reasons (one hopes most of them praiseworthy), no longer wish to be publicly associated with it.
Is it conceivable that individual congregations may voluntarily withdraw from SBC as the “legs” on this story get longer? Is the “reduced-tuition at SBC seminaries” too attractive to local congregations to give up?
IIRC it has been suggested (Max?) that local congregations that don’t agree with the Convention could simply stop contributing to the Cooperative Program, that being voluntary.
So why mention David Nelson?
I didn’t notice Mohler’s stare, but WOW. I love that woman who spoke!! Right on, sister!
Dee, this post is superb in every way. Indeed, God had you experience marginalization (and worse) from the church, so that you could really reach out to victims and know something of what they have gone through as well.
My eyes have really been opened, over the past 2 years, to the problems of abuse coverups and misogyny in the evangelical church. TWW has been a big part of that.
I pray daily that God can use me somehow to address these problems in the church, if in His will… I’m praying and seeking what that might mean.
Anyway, your predictions about Greear not disfellowshipping the “important” churches in the end ring true, sadly.
This is possible, but a good chunk of SBC church members don’t even know they are SBC (example: Summit Church, until Greear became SBC president). Also, there is no set minimum amount of money a church has to give to the SBC and be considered in “friendly cooperation”.
I would say that members in most SBC New Calvinist church plants are not aware of their SBC affiliation. SBC’s home mission agency is currently planting such churches at the rate of 1,000 per year; their true mission is about planting theology rather than gospel churches, but they wouldn’t tell you this. Their church names have no reference to SBC, with titles like “Summit” which reflect more of a non-denominational status. They have distanced themselves from traditional Southern Baptist identity as if they are ashamed of that. The only reference to SBC might be found tucked away under the “Beliefs” section of their websites where they simply note that they conform to the Baptist Faith & Message (which was revised in 2000 to provide wiggle room for diverse theologies – Al Mohler was on the revision team). If you did an exit poll at these churches, most members would not know they are Southern Baptists. This would also hold true for what the young reformers call “replants” … which are in fact SBC churches which formerly held to traditional SBC belief and practice (non-Calvinist) before they took them over by stealth and deception. Those who identified as Southern Baptist are long gone in most of them.
Amen! With that passion for Truth, I hope she is preaching the Gospel somewhere … I’d go to her church!
I suspect she moved on from SBTS after that semester. After Al’s Q&A session, he proceeded to remove female professors who stood in his way and make it known that the “beauty of complementarity” was now on the throne. SBC’s “Conservative Resurgence” became a “Calvinist Resurgence” from that point on.
Interesting that you should say that. After watching that video, my wife and I talked about the lack of “life” in the messengers and message of New Calvinism. There just isn’t any soul at the heart of the new reformation that one would credit the Holy Spirit to.
On the other hand, the young lady in the video was full of spiritual life! Southern Baptists of old used to preach like that! (at least in my neck of the woods).
I saw this video (the whole thing) for the first time several months ago. He truly seems like someone who has been possessed. There is no personality, no life and no warmth. His cold, soulless demeanor feels like the sheer evil of those who were able to condemn innocent men and women to tortuous death for daring to hold a different opinion. He is frightening.
… with the spirit of John Calvin.
In that exchange, the young lady stood up for Christ … while the young Mohler slinked back a bit, but still stood for Calvin at the end. She mentioned that she had to leave to go take a test … well, I think she took a test at that microphone and passed it; Jesus gave her an A+.
What determines whether a blog comment gets approved? I didn’t say anything mean to you, only asked why mention David Nelson? Not approving that comment shows you’re no different than the people you criticize. If I said you’re amazing or talked about how right you are or talked about pugs under your kitchen table, you’d approve it. Really disappointed. I thought things were different at Wartburg.
Sadly you are unfamiliar with how blogs function. I do not have to answer you but let me tell you this. Anyone who has never commented on this blog before or who changes their name, etc get held in moderation. In fact, this very comment will be held in moderation until I approve it. Then GBTC will delete all comments that mention moderation.
Perhaps you think I sit behind my computer, waiting for a person like yourself to comment.t and then I breathlessly approve it. Some people might find if odd that I have a life. I like to sleep at night. I do errands and care for my elderly mother. I go out to dinner.
So, dear Robert, precious though you are in the sight of the Lord, you are just a plain old new commenter on this blog and I just sat down this moment. Voila-you are approved. If you had taken a moment, you would realize that this blog approves more comments and allows more insults directed at your glorious blog queen than just about any Christian blog out there.
As for David Nelson-I believe that Christian enterprises should be honest and not make up reasons for things. If they didn’t want to spell it out, they should have said it was for serious issues. Blatant honesty is much better.
The guy’s obviously a bit muddled. In addition to other fallacies, this professor’s response to you involved the argument from authority fallacy and something of a reverse ad hominem defense.
Perhaps he’s not quite fit to be a professor.
We could use you out here.It’s like the Wild West! Thank you for your kind comment.
Oh, almost forgot. David Nelson was involved in exonerating my former church. Providence Baptist regarding a cover up so I have a particular interest in the details surrounding his demise.
Will any of the SBC churches be making it safe for parishioners and their children? How do we know it is safe to attend a local SBC body?
So true. I’ve asked several people around here who attend such churches if they know they are Baptists. All except one vehemently denied it. But then again, they are not people who actually understand what they truly believe.
Mac, I have an important question. Will the SBC/NAMB/whatever tell folks how many of their plants have failed and how much money they spent on those plants? This is a simple business question and I’m sure they have stats. For example, when Ed Stetzer was the church planting expert before he suddenly became the SBC sex abuse *expert*, I was left with the impression that the plants he participated in failed. perhaps my info was wrong but it did cause me to wonder about church plant fails.
Recently, I’ve heard rumors that the SBC may have given some money to Harvest Bible Chapel to help them plant churches in the greater Chicago area. I’m thin to get confirmation for this.
I loved her. Hope she ditched SBTS and went on to serve the Lord.
I’m afraid you’re right, Ken, and I fear that many will still not see this as the hand of God judging our duplicity, hypocrisy and complacency, but rather “the world’s attack”. That’s so much the mindset, and it’s really ridiculous. The majority of American Christians don’t know what it IS to suffer for the name of Jesus. Christians around the world in countries that don’t value freedom of conscience or religion put us to shame.
In a way that’s a tangent, sorry, but it does speak to our toxic culture of “Christian success” that has propped up this stench.
Gosh you’re right, is he not the very picture of young, pseudo-intellectual neocalvinist, with a lot of issues to work through because the girls just didn’t go for his geeky vibe back in school, and now here he is, an odd young man understanding neither God nor man nor woman nor himself, on the cusp of unleashing his pent up fury on a perfectly decent denomination and a perfectly good, academically sound seminary.
I’ve seen it before: the misfit who has never had a real relationship with a woman, understands them not at all, unlike Jesus having no appreciation for their intellect and spirituality, who latches onto neocalvinism and thinks by gosh they now understand the Deep Magic, the gnosis, and it gives their lives meaning and gives them power and allows them to work out their closeted hatred for women in the name of God.
I tell you straight up, that explains at least some of what has happened over the last 20-some years to the SBC and with the rise of neocalvinism. We are not dealing with the best and brightest here—Mohler’s a case study. If Mohler’s the Great Genius of the movement, no wonder it’s slowly imploding.
Clergy in many states do the right thing and ignore clergy privilege laws. My understanding is that nothing prevents clergy from reporting crimes, cooperating with the authorities, etc. (Possible exception: Clergy might feel bound not to report deeds revealed under the seal of confession—but many churches don’t have a seal of confession.)
There is a related concern about the current worldwide summit of Roman Catholic cardinals. As of yesterday, they proposed following local laws about reporting abuse. Of course, in some places they have worked against extending the statute of limitations.
Victims have a patchwork of unreliable protections. Denominations need to take the lead and develop their own strict standards for reporting crimes of all kinds, regardless of location.
Villains go where the victims are. Do they flock to churches in states where they can get away with crimes? Or do they just see a general opportunity in a given church, and get away with whatever they can?
What an absolute joke of a list…no Prestonwood, no Newspring, no Stonebridge church. This is about optics and PR damage control. The only churches on the Baptist Pope’s bad list are the ones highlighted in the original HC 3 part series.
There is no such thing. All the laws and policies in the world won’t make anywhere 100percent guaranteed safe.
Amy nailed it with her observation. This Is an optic game.
The SBC would toss Brentwood for it ordaining a woman as Minister to Senior Adults first, then again because of the size, Brentwood might be safe.
The “intellectual” shitck on Mohler was planted early because he was the youngest seminary prez at 33 and it was before social media. Frankly, his CV doesn’t back it up. He was listed in Time mag as as an upcoming evangelical influencer. Wonder where they got that information?
As to hating women, not sure about that. You should meet his wife. I am scared of her! She is the perfect “help meet” for him. Lol.
Ouch. Guess you really showed me.
We all need to get slapped upside the head once in awhile.
You are the one who has to decide that. Be wise.
Would engaging my family’s attorney in a conversation with officials of my local SBC church expedite the awareness, proactive urgency, and administration I require for the safety of my children? And the legal ramifications they might face if they don’t keep them safe? Or should have an offender in employment, or in attendance there? Do you have information if SBC parishioners have individuallly taken a local SBC church to court for revealed negligence?
It is true that an SBC affiliate church can withdraw at any time.
However, few people know that there are two catches:
1. Some churches have deed restrictions in their property that state if the congregation ceases being SBC, the property reverts to the local association. (These were placed in some deeds due to issues in the 1970’s and 1980’s when the charismatic movement was actively taking over some congregations, such as Beverly Hills in Oak Cliff and Shady Grove in Grand Prairie. I know one church that has or had such a restriction. However I know that church is now solidly in the Reformed camp so they’re on the SBC good boy list.)
2. Also if the church borrowed money from the SBC or one of its entities, if they leave the SBC the balance accelerates automatically (even if they are current on all prior payments).
Those are unusual circumstances but they could come into play if we start seeing mass defections from the SBC.
If Evangelical Protestantism had an ounce of courage, they’d take Pope Francis’s lead (he fired 3 cardinals) and do some disfellowshipping.
“I could use Benny’s white jacket trick when running through airports.”
well, you’re just going to have to explain that one.
It’s sad to say, but I don’t think you should. Ever. Keep the kids with you on Sunday mornings. If churches tell you that you can’t, leave.
Probably don’t need to point there for an example to follow.
I guess you can take it if you can dish it. 🙂
And why is that Robert?
Is Roman Catholicism somehow unqualified for doing the right thing?
You will notice that this follow up Chronicle article points out that al 10 churches were specifically mentioned in their expose. They seem to infer that Mr. Greear’s response lacks authenticity.
If ‘intellectual’ is defined as soulless, walking computer that can push out the ‘right’ answers, then Mohler fits the bill. Certainly he has grown more comfortable in his own skin (Freudian slip had ‘sin’) but it is hard to imagine that anyone thought someone so devoid of warmth or people skills would make a good seminary president. We can see now that he had a job to do.
I don’t know specifically if HE PERSONALLY hates women, I should’ve explained that one better. My bad. I don’t know the man. But I can speak from personal experience having been an elder in a neocal and having had young, full of (perhaps phony) passion for God, who confided their inner hatred for women to me. Almost a cliché. And he does seem the very type, at least superficially.
It’s not hard to connect the dots between these unresolved personal issues in these young men and their creation of a theology that totally marginalizes the women in their lives. The neocal church where I was an elder was utterly male-dominated. Middle-aged women like my wife and others, women who loved Jesus, had decades of experience serving Him, who were highly-educated, some of whom were successful entrepreneurs, were almost completely disregarded and looked down upon by arrogant young men (most in their 20s), uneducated or half-educated, with little experience in their faith, who were put in positions of great authority and their opinions revered.
My wife was never able to connect with the wives of the young Calvinist men, either—and she tried. But all they wanted to discuss were window treatments and nail polish. They were very well-kept, they took care of all the exterior stuff, hair and jewelry and makeup and everything just so–quite externally beautiful. But they were almost to a woman willfully, proudly ignorant. If any of the young contingent of women ever paid attention to any of the abuse their young husbands were meting out, if they ever cared one whit about the theology, we never saw a sign of it. A 40-something with a grad degree in the hard sciences and doctoral work, a former academic and Fortune 500-type like my wife, was a complete nonentity there. I think the young men had a mixture of fear and contempt for her, and to the young ladies, she was a nonentity.
It was a mess—and it didn’t last. And now what’s left of all those young people? close to 10 years on, about half of them have turned either to New Age mysticism or hard core atheism.
In corporate America, we called a new CEO like that an “axeman.”
Chop away the old SBC … make room for the new. All in the name of the “Conservative Resurgence” (which was really a “Calvinist Resurgence”).
Take a chill pill. It’s just there are numerous examples during Francis’ papacy where we’ve learned of his own “CJ” style actions.
Firing three is the equivalent of nothing in the grand scheme of things. He knew. Shouldn’t he come clean? What if I pointed to Driscoll as an example in this blog post? He’s surely done one or two things right in his life since he left Seattle. Doesn’t mean it’s wise to point there.
“I pray daily that God can use me somehow to address these problems in the church, if in His will… I’m praying and seeking what that might mean.”
my thoughts on His will —
Assuming God has feelings, i think God enjoys observing us make informed decisions/choices.
One can pray for weeks, months, extending into years before doing anything.
I know from experience — i stayed in a highly toxic, controlling church for far too long, waiting for God to show me what his will was. i had bought into the notion that anything other than the bullseye of God’s perfect will was settling.
and what a disappointment you are to God (& everyone!) when you settle. (or so was the belief system i had bought into)
the lightning bolt never came. not even a little electrical buzz, no strong impressions, no one saying “You are to leave, thus saith the lord”, no string of coincidences pointing to “leave”.
the fact of the matter is a blinking warning alarm had been going off in me for years. but i had silenced my own thoughts, my own voice. which had long recognized “this is wrong. this is destructive.” The evidence was rife, in the lives of others who had left and who stayed, and in my own life.
so that is a large part of what has informed my perspective.
my view is that God can work with plan A, plan B, plan C…
if something is wrong, if something is right, is there’s something productive we can begin to do about either, let’s do it.
a stationary marble, waiting to be pushed, can’t be directed. once it’s in motion, then it can be directed.
i don’t believe there is one plan, and anything else is settling.
We can choose A, B, C,… (no route is a straight line, all are circuitous). God joins us, God’s ability with our ability, God’s voice with our voice, God’s hand with our hand in whatever decisions we make.
(i know this is all unsolicited, and presumptuous on my part)
No, not under Kevin Ezell’s leadership. As I noted, the church planting program under his direction has clearly been all about planting reformed theology as rapidly as possible – graduates from SBTS, SEBTS, MWBTS, and others have been lining up to get those assignments (and we know their theological leaning these days).
Folks may not be aware that Kevin Ezell was Al Mohler’s pastor before going to NAMB (how convenient is that?!). The only accounting I’ve seen from SBC NAMB about church plants is that they have been spending about $60 million per year on the church planting program since Ezell took over … beyond that there are no available details on how much went where, how it was spent, and if the plant failed … nor the theological flavor of the “lead” pastor at a particular plant (they don’t have to indicate that on the application form).
I would not be surprised. MacDonald would have tapped all available income streams … he joined the SBC for various reasons, I suppose. MacDonald was a big tater in the New Calvinist movement, until he got sliced, so NAMB would have probably sent hard-earned Southern Baptist money his way to help him plant reformed churches. And the pew ain’t got a clue.
Pretty much the same experience I had. You get in a dangerous place and you don’t want to leave because you have friends (or think you have friends) and you have invested time and emotional effort into the place and the sunk costs fallacy will get you good. So you’ll “wait on God”, when you know good and well, deep down, that He’s already been speaking to you all along, those uneasy feelings, those alarm bells. I’ve been there, done that!
Reminds me of this from a Steve Martin movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkcKQmr7kRc
Well, I’ve actually thought this for years about some of the young whippersnapper reformers infecting SBC life … that they hated their domineering mama, couldn’t get dates in high school, or something of that sort. New Calvinism has provided a way for them to subordinate the life out of women as “lead” pastors via the “beauty of complementarity.” It’s a sickness.
And I know you’ve mentioned it before, but what is the justification behind this ‘church planting’ emphasis? Are they going to nations and cities and communities that have a dearth of churches, and no opportunity to hear the gospel?
Or are they simply striving to become the dominant voice, pushing their particular doctrines and version of the gospel, often surreptitiously behind the hip band and good coffee? If I ever do church again, they will not have a band, and I will bring my own coffee.
I suspect she ended up in pentecostal ranks or perhaps with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (split from the SBC) … those folks don’t have a problem with female preachers/pastors. I’m a Bapticostal myself … my wife is one of the best preachers I know – she “preaches” at me everyday! In fact, she speaks through me often in TWW comments (looking over my shoulder).
It is true that an SBC affiliate church can withdraw at any time.
However, few people know that there are two catches:
1.Some churches have deed restrictions in their property that state if the congregation ceases being SBC, the property reverts to the local association…
2.Also if the church borrowed money from the SBC or one of its entities, if they leave the SBC the balance accelerates automatically (even if they are current on all prior payments).
Those are unusual circumstances but they could come into play if we start seeing mass defections from the SBC.
This goes way back and is more common than people realize.
Your second paragraph describes the essential mission of SBC’s New Calvinist church planters, IMO. I’ve never thought that the driver was to plant Gospel churches, nor to reach the lost with the Cross of Christ for ALL people, to every tribe, tongue and nation. It’s been about spreading reformed theology; these folks sincerely believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” to the American church (gospel = Calvinism). They are passionate, but it is a misplaced passion … and New Calvinist leaders will have to answer to God for leading so much young talent astray.
In the 1950s, most North Carolina churches were convinced to add such a clause in their governing documents.
Southern Baptist historian Nathan Finn:
“In 1954, North Rocky Mount Baptist Church split after its pastor led a majority of the church to vote to disaffilliate with the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina and the SBC…The minority, which wished to remain Southern Baptist, sued the majority…The minority wanted to keep all the assets, including the church’s property.”
“State convention leaders testified on behalf of the minority in court. They also urged all BSCNC churches to amend their bylaws so that, in the event of a similar vote to disaffiliate, all the assets would remain with the minority who wished to remain SBC and BSCNC. Most churches complied.”
A 1982 Baptist Press article “Judge Orders ‘Non-Cooperating’ Church to Return Property to State Convention” reported that:
“Reverter clauses are common across the Southern Baptist Convention”
I also was surprised that Pope Francis was posted as an example to follow. Hopefully, his recent actions demonstrate a trend in the right direction.
I know of one dispute about some very old church property (not SBC). It led to a suit in which the court looked at colonial documents and law. Splits involving property can be very unpredictable. Sometimes, of course, they lead to better churches after everyone recovers.
It’s still being pushed, examples from Southern Baptist state conventions of Arizona and Kansas/Nebraska:
Recommended wording found at azchurchplanting dot org –
“in case its house of worship…shall cease to be used as a house or place of Southern Baptist worship by those in harmony with or affiliated with the ASBC…then in each and every such case the title to the above described property shall revert to and become vested in the (local Southern Baptist Association’s name)”
How the Kansas/Nebraska Convention says to write or amend church constitution & bylaws:
“It is suggested that a church consider including a “reversionary clause” in its constitution in order to protect the future usage of its property to make sure that such property remains in the hands of Southern Baptists.”
[provides boilerplate language to use]
Stepford Wife, Kept Woman, or a bit of both?
(And did your wife check about any “Stepford” manufacturer’s mark embossed on their skin?)
All bling-bling on the outside with no substance; just like a McMansion.
“Vogue on the Outside, Vague on the Inside.”
i.e. Street-legal Santa Barbara Incel Shooter with a Bible instead of an automatic rifle.
And I say the same thing as with the Santa Barbara Shooter:
“Know what I did? I GOT A LIFE. A LIFE THAT DOESN’T DEPEND ON WOMEN THROWING THEMSELVES ON ME 24/7.” Or stamping my boot on female faces as Payback.
The following are possible concerns related to the strategies and tactics being used by the New NAMB
This is from an analysis of NAMB strategies.
“Short-sighted Approaches — It appears that we are using tactics that produce quicker results, result in NAMB looking “cool” and successful but have long-term negative consequences.
Placing and/or approving planters to ministry fields that are far removed from their past contexts of living and ministering without examining these issues, preparing the planter and his family, and without connecting them to adequate local churches and leaders of healthy churches in surrounding areas. This will result in more planting failures, which damage not only the planter and his family, but also reflects negatively on all parts of the SBC family to all the individuals and churches which partnered with and supported the planter.
Funding satellite campuses of some mega churches. Danger lies in the growing belief that the faithful CP giving of smaller and mid-size churches is being taken and then redistributed back to mega churches who plant campuses around them that in turn not reach lost people, but reach the church members of those small and mid-size congregations.
Partner with (not sure all that it entails) with historically non-SBC churches to plant churches. I assume this means that SBC funds are being used to start churches who primarily relate to and are committed to non-SBC entities and mission efforts. Such known partnerships include: Harvest Bible Chapel, Acts 29, McLean Bible Church and most probably several others. I don’t know if we are counting them as SBC church plants for our records, but it would be worth inquiring of a NAMB Trustee.“
There’s more to be found from this website, from which the above quote was taken.
Remember “Womb Tomb” Swanson?
The first time I saw a picture of him (and/or heard his voice in some news story), everything fell into place. He looks like an overripe High School Dork, he sounds like a High School Dork. An Omega Male who found a way to put himself on top as Alpha of Alpha Males by Divine Right, and IT’S PAYBACK TIME! WITH INTEREST!
And you might like this to see where Mr Edsel has stood in relation to abuse cases in the past.
‘Edsel’ should be ‘Ezell’
It’s exactly what it is, and it goes far beyond conservative interpretations of a woman’s role as a pastor in church. I was a member of a Southern Baptist church back in the day (early to mid-80s) where they most definitely didn’t support the woman-as-a-pastor paradigm, and yet women were still listened to in the church, young men were expected to regard their elders—and that included women as well as men. Women took an active role, no one seemed to be trying to shut them down, they talked theology, they led prayers and worship, they taught Sunday School. While they might not have filled formal positions of “pastor” (which I think is a made up thing as we now understand it, anyway), they were the backbone of the church in many respects and men listened to them. They had influence. And that was back in the days of good ol’ So Bap types.
These young men today shouldn’t be leading anything. They should shut up and listen to those who’ve been there and done that. That’s generally a biblical standard. About the only possible exception I see in the Bible is Timothy, but there’s an exception to every rule—and frankly, from what I’ve read Timothy may well have been in his late 30s or 40s, not a punk of 23, like the kid they put in charge of finances at my church (the kid with no financial knowledge and a bachelor’s degree in an elementary ed).
And I still consider Mohler a young man, because very obviously not everyone gets older and wiser. Some, particularly those who spend the greater part of their lives shielding themselves with “yes men” from the consequences of their own actions, just get older.
Our church has an electric urn and Cremora, not a fancy-shmancy coffee shop. During an endless construction project, the church moved the coffee urn to a different room, hallway, or closet every single Sunday—quite the guessing game! At the time, I thought that was a bad thing. Now I’m thinking it was good for our character. 😉
That’s what’s going on. Many in evangelicalism are being governed by the emotional sickness of very disturbed young men.
So Dee, any response from that professor? Or the old stone wall?
Since I didn’t name him, its probably taking time. for it to reach his ears. Then, we’ll see.
I left the toxic fundagelical Calvary Chapel culture for the same reasons you guys have elucidated.
Thank you for this excellent reference. I have not been to that website before and look forward to reading it
WOW!!!!! I didn’t know about this. it kind of reminds me of the Salem Witch trials (I grew up in Salem.) The wealthy church leaders would accuse a woman/man of being a witch. While they were in jail, the wealthy folks would get ahold of that supposed witch’s valuable land. This bears watching. Thank you.
I wish some person would question them about church plant fails. Also, plants that are surviving only due to a large infusion of cash.
There is a reason that Ed Stetzer jumped from being a *church planting expert* to suddenly ditching it and now becoming a* sex abuse expert.*
He linked to one of the videos of Benny Hinn. causing people to hit the ground when he waved his white jacket. Think about airports lines. I could wave the jacket, everyone would be *slain in the spirit* and I could run to the front of the line.
Apart from property and loans, there are also the factors of health insurance and retirement. One of the larger churches in town doesn’t have “Baptist” in its name anymore, but they have been SBC for years. I’ve been told that the main reason for staying SBC is that it’s easier to get health insurance for the staff, and they have a really good retirement program for the leadership types.
I guess you could say it’s all about the Benjamins. Then again, I don’t have health insurance, and if I could get a good policy by joining an SBC church, I would be tempted.
Did you know that Highpoint Church (Jules Woodson/Andy Savage) did precisely that? At the beginning of the revelations, they were SBC. Screen shot in my post. Within a couple of months, they were no longer listed.
10 years of blogging in March. Oh, the arrows slung at my serene visage during that time…
Many church goers in my part of the Midwest say “if it’s God’s will” all the time, especially when praying. My take- God gave us free will so that we would make our own choices.
He also created us in His image. One of the things that makes us “in his image” is our capacity to create, not just art (music, song, dance) but a life which is full of joy and good works.
So unless God has told us clearly in the Bible “Don’t do that” or unless he has told us directly through prayer “Don’t go there/take that job/do that” we are perfectly free to choose whatever we want. Not just free, but encouraged by our creator to make such choices. Knowing this sets me free to do good every day of my life. I have full confidence that if for some reason God really doesn’t think my choice our plan is a good idea He will let me know. That has happened maybe twice in my entire Christian life and I’ve served Jesus over 35 years.
Yeah, as I recall, his church planting career didn’t go too well. It may have had something to do with telling his congregation “There are three things and ONLY three things that I do: I meet with the staff/apprentices, I preach about 70% of the time, and I lead a small group in my home … I can’t do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings …” In other words, Stetzer wasn’t a pastor.
Dee – the “appeal to authority”, or,
Look at all these leaders who support these men; their popularity alone proves that you are wrong to criticise them– I’m sure it’s occurred to you that this argument, or at least its converse, is actually biblical.
I did CC for time. I was insulated, though, because the pastor evidently didn’t buy into all the abuse and control that CC specializes in. I wouldn’t set foot in a CC today for a million dollars—and I mean that literally.
“we are perfectly free to choose whatever we want. Not just free, but encouraged by our creator to make such choices. Knowing this sets me free to do good every day of my life. I have full confidence that if for some reason God really doesn’t think my choice our plan is a good idea He will let me know.”
Thanks, Fisher. You really said it well.
i also enjoy being free to do neutral every day of my life.
i enjoy not taking myself so seriously as to think that my every choice, action, word, thought (or circumstance that happens to me) is spiritual cause & effect. has a spiritual connection.
i love making choices that are simply practical. That simply make me happy. Or that make others happy. All for their own sake.
really, God doesn’t need me, my worship, my focus every minute of every day. what a silly, obnoxious need-for-attention God that would be.
and really, i don’t need God every minute of every day. i’m not a baby bird who needs food brought to her and put in her mouth or else she’ll die. who can barely move her wings. I’m not a 5-year old who has to hold a parent’s hand.
i’m an eagle soaring in the sunset sky. i’m wonder woman, saying ‘Hera, help me’ when plunging fist first through the rock mountain. (except it’s ‘God, help me’).
but i decided to be airborne myself (& learn the skills for it). [& metaphorically-speaking, of course]
I was being sort of facetious about the coffee. 😉 I used to be the one to make coffee at my old church (in an old fashioned coffee maker or percolator), mostly because I was willing to bring quality, organic coffee and fresh cream rather than use the typical institutional Folgers and creamer.
How are the SBC and these events related to Converge?
Kevin Ezell replaced Geoff Hammond at NAMB. I’ve known Geoff since he joined our youth club long before he went to the USA. Geoff was and is still an outstanding witness for Christ.
And you get the gist of things here. Looks like Geoff didn’t fit the Mohler mould and was trying to build something better.
This reminds me of a debate I had on a board with a Calvinist. I asked him how the doctrine of God choosing ahead of time who would be saved and who would not squared with John 3:16.
His response? “The original text of John 3:16 doesn’t say ‘whosoever’.”
Never mind that EVERY reliable translation says “whosoever” or some form of it (even the JW’s “translation” says “everyone”).
How can we help you celebrate 10 years of blogging, Dee?
Which is *awesome*!
The archives of reports you and Deb have created over the years has been a crucial resource for researching and re-bringing the light into the same darkness that attempts to repeat and replicate itself.
I thought that’s what reserved seats were for? 🙂
I appreciate this information as well.
Example of standing ovation for not the victim….
About 4 years ago, my sister-in-law was driving home from work. She was near her home in her neighborhood traveling under the speed limit when a 9-year-old girl on a skateboard suddenly came out into the street. The girl was hit by my sister-in-law. The girl died about 4 hours later. The police investigated and determined that there was no way my sister-in-law could have avoided the girl. No tickets were issued and no charges were filed. My sister-in-law was devastated by the accident and suffered severe psychological problems from which she has yet to fully recover.
I read the linked article and as far as we know now, Coach Boeheim’s accident was similar in nature to my sister-in-law’s as no tickets were issued or charges filed. The article stated that Boeheim was “devastated”. The standing ovation at the Carrier Dome Saturday in support of Boeheim was appropriate since, as far as we know, he did nothing wrong.
Robert, can you not see the difference between Boeheim’s ovation and the ones supporting pastors that DID do something wrong, or are you just trolling? Did you read your own linked article?
A victim, yes. But of an accident, not a deliberate act. You might get some insight from Coack K’s post game press conference: http://www.goduke.com/pdf9/5483601.pdf?_ga=2.185070445.571698441.1550963373-881145153.1546751298 which contains this: “The honoring of the family and the moment of silence – everything was beautiful. In that environment, I was not sure if our guys could handle all that and they did.”
“Ephraim has attached himself to idols …” (Hosea 4:17)
They don’t emphasize world missions at all. So I think they are not just satisfied with being the dominant voice, they want complacent buyers of their books and materials. American Southern Baptists buy Lifeway materials. International Christians at SBC-planted churches would create much of their own literature.
And most of the leaders have their own books for purchase…
This is a pretty interesting read on that subject:
The “mission” is to reform the church (= Calvinism). “Evangelism” is rounding up the “elect”, not reaching the lost of every tongue, tribe and nation. Of course, they wouldn’t admit this.
It is interesting but I’m not a universalist for the record. It says “whosoever believes” (or believeth for us who grew up on the KJV). So of course if someone doesn’t believe they’re not part of the whosoever. I was shocked that the Calvinist tried to argue that “whosoever” wasn’t part of the text.
If they’re buying stuff at LifeWay they’re not doing a good job of it, the chain is in real trouble.
And most of those “leaders” don’t sell through LifeWay, you have to go to their megachurch bookstores instead (Chandler is the only major exception).
Bigger slice if profits going through their own bookstores.
Remember -I’m only a story teller. I celebrate the victims. Besides I really like hiding out behind my computer!
When visiting a SGM church to hear Mahaney (lousy preacher-seriously) I saw their bookstore. The cost of the books was ridiculous. These poor people were being told to buy the books to help the church. You can buy books by Mahaney for $.01 on Amazon used books. Once I discovered Amazon -I was one of the earliest Prime members. I never visited a Lifeway again.
I hope he sees your compliment.
I liked that post! The fanboys jumped to his defense, claiming he was being sacrificial by giving his time to the church plant since he was soooo important. Now, from what I heard, he planted two other church from his that initial plant. I heard all three failed but I could be wrong. The powers that be do not allow discussion on fails and will not release any information. So, folks, give to the NAMB at your own risk. You may be paying for an iPad and other perks for a pastor whose church is doomed to failure.
Funny thing about Folgers (instant.) I have such good memories surrounding it. When my husband and I were living on the Navajo reservation, we did not have much money but we had lots of free time (before kids.) So, we would stay at, get this, Motel 6 (they were everywhere out in that part of the country.) We bought stuff to make sandwiches and no-cook things for breakfast. We had this old hot water electric pot. We used Folgers Instant since it was cheap.
I have moved on to really good coffee-including French press and an espresso maker. But last summer, on a whim, I bought a small jar of Folgers instant. I was transported back to those days. It made me remember the red rock cliffs, National Parks like Arches, etc. I ended up using the full jar of the coffee. I even made my husband drink a cup and he got the same wonder flashbacks.
So, Folgers Instant is kind of a like a mind photo album for me though I must admit, I haven’t bought a new jar.
I guess I was just trolling. I post links to stuff I haven’t read. (Sarcasm)
How do you think the family felt with Coach getting an ovation and their family suffering loss? Good timing? I don’t think so, even if he did nothing wrong. People were clapping because coaches don’t do anything wrong (think Penn State), not because people though he needed their support. I’m sorry for your family’s experience, but I did read the article and I still feel the same way I felt. It’s pretty assanine to suggest I didn’t even read (or watch the video) the article I posted. But doesn’t matter. It’s okay.
Wow- I didn’t know that. Put it in a post for the future.
I don’t know how the Jimenez family felt, but I can tell you what happened with my sister-in law. Immediately after the police were done with their crash investigation, My sister-in-law’s immediate family went to the hospital to express her sorrow to the little girl’s family. Just after they arrived, the girl died. Shortly after that, she met with the girl’s parents and tearfully apologized. The girl’s family embraced her and told her that they knew it was not her fault and there was nothing she could have done (the girl’s family was Christian). I thought the family’s reaction was incredible powerful and a model of what Christians should do.
“People were clapping because coaches don’t do anything wrong (think Penn State), not because people though he needed their support.”
How do you know this? Is it not possible that the crowd was clapping because they knew that Coach Boeheim was in pain?
I thought that you may not have read the article because I don’t understand your thought process in coming to the conclusion you did. I also did not appreciate your suggesting that questioning your reading of the article was “asinine”. I believed that my thinking was perfectly logical, but it doesn’t matter, It’s okay.
I’ve come to this realization too. I mean, a Deity as powerful as he is, what would be the point? The gods of Egypt and the gods of the Canaanites all required constant groveling and adoration. The God of Abraham isn’t anything like them.
Great visual for the human spirit! (as described in Psalm 8)
It’s something to be celebrated, not suppressed and condemned.
Robert, are you by any chance related to senecagriggs, AKA Jimmy?
You started off with a bang. You are now continuing. Here’s the deal. When someone comes on this blog and begins to make it all about himself, I get irritable.
So, I’m placing you in moderation and watching you, carefully. This could be problematic since I am busy this afternoon and will not be able to approve comments frequently.
“But last summer, on a whim, I bought a small jar of Folgers instant. I was transported back to those days. ”
did you do the whole ritual? unscrew the lid with spoon in hand, then pop the paper with just the right jab, then a few lingering moments as the nostalgic coffee smell is released…
Great visual for the human spirit! (as described in Psalm 8)
It’s something to be celebrated, not suppressed and condemned.
yes, it’s all of us.
so vital, how we see ourselves.
i can remember as a kid, feeling fine, and then either a parent, grandparent, or trusted adult comes up to me and says,
“i think you’re coming down with something”
(oh, wow, maybe i am) –i was in perfect health.
“your forehead feels warm”
(hey, my forehead does feel warm. in fact, i feel warm all over) –i had been running around outside
“you have the sniffles”.
(hey, i am sniffling.) –i had just eaten some Hot Tamales cinnamon candy, hot enough for watery eyes and sniffles
“are you feeling sick?”
(well, maybe i am feeling sick.) –i was in the middle of a fun afternoon, feeling good in my own skin
“maybe you should stay home from school tomorrow”
(wow, i must really be sick, then.)
“why don’t you come inside and lay down for a bit”
(yes. yes, i’ll get my blanket and go curl up. because i’m sick.) –i wasn’t sick.
a hypothetical, above, but i do remember things like this happening.
It’s more a case of “we love Him because He first loved us” and because of the cost of that love, our response should be complete and wholehearted. God does, after all, inhabit the praises of Israel.
I’ll take that as a yes.
Sports crowds always clap to show respectful support. When a wincing youth basketball player limps off the court, the crowd claps. When an NFL star is driven away on an injury cart, the crowd claps.
It does not mean hooray.
Everybody knows this.
It is unseemly and exploitative to pretend or insist otherwise.
I realize that you know everything I wrote above. Sometimes we have to state the obvious. Unfortunately this is one of those days.
Thank you for sharing your family’s painful story. You took some provocative comments and turned them into grace.
Or, as it says in Q104 of the WCF Larger Catechism
Q. 104. What are the duties required in the first commandment?
A. The duties required in the first commandment are, the knowing and acknowledging of God to be the only true God, and our God; and to worship and glorify him accordingly, by thinking, meditating, remembering, highly esteeming, honouring, adoring, choosing, loving, desiring, fearing of him; believing him; trusting hoping, delighting, rejoicing in him; being zealous for him; calling upon him, giving all praise and thanks, and yielding all obedience and submission to him with the whole man; being careful in all things to please him, and sorrowful when in any thing he is offended; and walking humbly with him.
You always make me smile.
I asked a question. You take it as a yes. I don’t know who you’re talking about. Pretty ridiculous.
My own perspective watching what happened on the blog is …. groupthink…. you all have to agree with each other all the time … and you aren’t much different, if at all, from the reformed crowd you all always compitch about.
To me the chatechism is adding to scripture.
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”
“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”
I didn’t agree with everything in that paper, but they covered whether or not it was part of the original text fairly well.
Take your own advice, and a chill pill.
Unless this comment:
was from a different Robert, in which case, please accept my apologies, but please nevertheless take the other Robert’s advice.
If you’re not senecagriggs, and I’m not convinced, then you are his doppelgänger. That’s not a compliment.
Each to their own. My view is that The WCF and Catechism reflect Scripture.
I don’t think “Robert” has the same style as seneca. Seneca certainly comments from a certain POV, but he doesn’t use the level of gratuitous insolence that “Robert” has.
Maybe not. Griggs is a lot more active on the internet monk site. Both he and Robert have very similar tactics.
I must admit, I’ve never been to internet monk. It may be wonderful for all I know, but I don’t have enough self-discipline to be a regular on more than one blog/community – I’d never do anything else!
I have to admit, the same thing happens to me with tastes and smells. Like when I am at a house where people use ‘Dial’ soap. It’s awful (apologies to any fans), but it’s all my Dad would use, so it makes me think of him. Funny tidbit, I have a 60 year old brother who is somewhat impaired after a serious accident many years ago. When he stayed at my house this summer, he showered with my locally made soap, and told me how nice it was. He had been using Dial all these years! I sent him home with a bag of nice soap. Guess what he’ll be getting for Christmas from now on?
Oh, I don’t know. Sure, the fact that many of us have suffered from spiritual or other abuse – frequently, but not always, in a Reformed Church – does sort of give us a common slant. But I know darn well that many things I post many will disagree with. I hesitate to push ‘Post’, thinking, ‘I’m going to get clobbered’. But you know what, it doesn’t happen. Disagreed with, sometimes strongly? Sure. But that’s the way it should be.
I see great variance in political (yeah, it sneaks in sometimes), social, and theological viewpoints here, among other things. I appreciate the snarky folk, the gentle peacemakers, and everything in between. The common bond, it seems to me, is a rejection of authoritarianism, abusiveness and a lack of respect for others.
That’s certainly the way I view TWW posts and most commenters. If all of those things happen to characterize a particular theological tribe, it may come across as just picking on them. But watchmen must speak as God leads; when God corrects and rebukes, it always offends somebody. When a person is ‘in’ something contrary to God’s will, they can’t help anybody ‘out’ … it’s up to those who have escaped the snare to offer truth in love to help set them free.
When I first ‘escaped’, wounded and bleeding, I thought I had gone through some horrible, once-in-a-lifetime situation. Then, over the years, I started hearing story after story that sounded just like mine. I am sure that to the loyal insiders I seem like a condescending troublemaker. I honestly just want to warn those who haven’t seen what so many have of what is frequently going on in these strict, authoritarian, elder-ruled congregations. You may not understand unless you ask the ‘wrong’ question.
I understand; I worshiped and served faithfully for over a decade, pushing aside any niggling doubts. Most would say that our family was the bedrock of the church. We were the longest lasting family, having been there when it was a tiny, new plant, there to set up chairs, clean bathrooms, help people move, take the phone calls for help, etc.. One of the hardest things I have ever done was to take a hard, honest look at all that had gone on over the years and sadly admit that more people were wounded than helped.
I would never in a million years have imagined myself where I am today.