“Any fool knows that bravado is always a cover-up for insecurity. That’s the truth. And on that note, I’ll say goodnight. God love you.” Bobby Darin
James MacDonald Is Given the Boot
The Elders Speak with *Heavy Hearts*
Dear Harvest Bible Chapel Family:
It is with great sadness that we as the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel wish to convey to you a very recent development that has caused us to take immediate action regarding our Senior Pastor, Dr. James MacDonald.
Following a lengthy season of review, reflection, and prayerful discussion, the Elders of Harvest Bible Chapel had determined that Pastor MacDonald should be removed from his role of Senior Pastor. That timeline accelerated, when on Tuesday morning highly inappropriate recorded comments made by Pastor MacDonald were given to media and reported.
Our Elders and Staff are committed to fulfilling our fiduciary duty as the leadership of this congregation, knowing that at times the outcome may be misunderstood or emotionally painful. A more detailed communication regarding next steps for our church will take place in our weekend services.
3 points from this statement jump out at me.
- Mancow played some snippets of remarks by what sounds like James MacDonald. It was these disgusting comments that made the elders get busy… finally. I guess the plunging of knives into posted images of pastors or members is not a fireable offense in Chicago?
- The elders claim that they will fulfill their fiduciary responsibility. They are in a heap of trouble in terms of debt. The good folks at The Elephant Debt have been warning them about this for years. Could the entities that gave them the loans call them in? Hoo boy.
- Exactly what were the elders doing for the past year? They backed the lawsuit against The Elephant Debt and Julie Roys. I predicted that the lawsuit would fail since lawsuits against bloggers rarely prevail. The elders followed him in this ridiculous path. 3 1/2 months later the elders decided to can MacDonald? Good night! However they were praying back then as well. Are they trying to say that God approved of that dad-blasted, stupid lawsuit just a few short months ago and now He wants MacDonald out? C’mon, boys.Shame on you…
Elders: Get rid of MacDonald’s sons and reimburse TED and Julie Roys for their legal fees due to your negligence in allowing this stupid lawsuit to proceed.
What did MacDonald say on those recordings?
These recordings prove MacDonald’s lack of character. I believe the elders knew about this sort of nonsense for years but ignored it since the money was flowing.
Julie Roys reveals some of the content in Mancow Airs Shocking Comments By James MacDonald: My Response
I’ve also now heard the complete 50 minutes of audio that Mancow referenced, and heard the clips in context, and they are credible. I’ve also reached out to MacDonald for comment, and he did not respond with either a confirmation or denial.
Mancow said he plans to air the entire 50-minute conversation on an upcoming podcast.
In them, the man who’s presumably MacDonald jokes about me having an affair with Mark Galli, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today (CT). (ed. Roys denies this is true.)
MacDonald also makes vulgar references to Harold Smith and Ed Stetzer, CT contributing editor and the executive director of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College.
He also allegedly insults CT, calling it a “. . . pipe-organ protecting, musty, mild smell of urine, blue hair Methodist loving, mainline dying, women preacher championing, emerging church adoring, almost good with all gays, and closet Palestine promoting Christianity” magazine.
especially disconcerting to me is an excerpt where MacDonald alleges that I and “another person who used to attend (Harvest)” approached the houses of people who were victims in a DCFS investigation and shouted at them about a cover-up at Harvest. He alleges that I’m “off the rails” and predicts that in 30 days, I’m going to be “riding a tricycle with a midget on (my) shoulders.”
He claimed to put child pornography of Harold Smith’s computer
She links to Mancow’s show in which he aired some of these statements that were made allegedly by MacDonald. She also gives approximate times of various comments in this post so you can target your listening. I, too, will post the recording when it becomes available.
Christianity Today’s editor in chief Mark Galli responds to what he claims to be slander.
There is little question in my mind that MacDonald could be in a world of hurt with these comments. Years ago, I explained how to understand the law to some people who were afraid of a lawsuit for telling what they believed to be true. You must always tell the truth or what you believe to be true. So, you can recount what happened to you when you were molested by your youth pastor. You can’t make something up like “every night he dresses up like Marilyn Monroe and dances to music by The Monkees” unless he actually does that.
On Mancow, MacDonald, and the Harvest Mess: CT’s editor in chief, Mark Galli, commented on today’s aired remarks. Might I add, Galli is more than gracious.
First, we want to address MacDonald’s alleged derogatory remarks about various members of CT’s staff broadcast today on Mancow, a radio show based in Chicago. MacDonald is clearly angry with the way CT has covered his leadership at Harvest, and he’s succumbed to the temptation to slander me, threaten our CEO, and denigrate others. This is unfortunate. But this is part of the life of journalism, because we know that we’re not exactly popular with people about whom we have to report bad news. We also know that people (including me) privately say things in anger that they later regret. So we’re not going to blast back at MacDonald or to demand a public apology.
So, thinking about the legal definition of libel/defamation, take a look at the following statements. Do they seem like someone is stating something they believe to be true or do they seem like they are made up in a fit of fury?
Regarding Roys:
…In them, the man who’s presumably MacDonald jokes about me having an affair with Mark Galli, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today (CT).
….especially disconcerting to me is an excerpt where MacDonald alleges that I and “another person who used to attend (Harvest)” approached the houses of people who were victims in a DCFS investigation and shouted at them about a cover-up at Harvest. He alleges that I’m “off the rails” and and predicts that in 30 days, I’m going to be “riding a tricycle with a midget on (my) shoulders.”
MacDonald has absolutely no reason to believe that these things are true.
I wrote a post on what constitutes slander in the Bible: Slander or an Inconvenient Truth? I wrote this because so many Christian leaders cry *slander* when it is simply someone truthfully confronting poor behavior or some other sort of sin. Last year, Frank Turk, formerly of Pyromaniacs fame, in a fit of pique due to my writing about Tom Chantry’s arrest and court case, claimed I was slandering Chantry. I tried to explain why it is not slander to discuss it in this situation. But, he decided to accuse me of *necrophilia* and kept repeating it. I then got to take him to school on legal definitions and he decided social media was not for him….
So, Galli is correct that what James MacDonald said about Roys and him is slander by anyone’s definition. It appears that Roys and Galli are nice people and do not intend to sue him but they would be well within their rights to do so.
So what’s going to happen?
There are all kinds of predictions going on in social media.
- MacDonald is already making the rounds of pastor friends and is trying to raise money to reboot his ministry.
- MacDonald could join forces with Mark Driscoll in Scottsdale who is reportedly holding a conference on Biblical Church Governance. You can’t make this stuff up.
- He could join the ARC. Watch this group, folks. They are church planting faster than the SBC.
- He will take troops to Naples and takeover the Naples HBC church.
- What is his *stuff* that he can take with him? Does he own the rights to things like Vertical Church? Radio/podcasts, etc?
- Does he get any money ala salary, retirement commitments, benefits, etc
- He will leave Chicago.
- The elders will be forced to resign.
- HBC will fold like Mars Hill.
- He’ll become a church planting expert for the SBC’s NAMB.
- Bill Hybels and MacDonald will team up to do Christian cruises for I Heart Radio.
- PETA will invade and free the white-tailed deer.
- MacDonald auctions his leather jacket on Ebay and offers to shave off his goatee for $100,000. He goes to Vegas and puts it all on one spin of the roulette wheel. He loses.
Please feel free to make predictions.
NAMB in Chicago
I received word today that the SBC’s North American Mission Board bought two houses to put up church planters. They claim it is associated with HBC. Could someone confirm this information? Is the NAMB buying real estate? Also, can anyone tell me how many of their church plants have failed?
Can anyone recommend good churches near HBC?
I have received a number of requests from people who are leaving HBC. If any of you have some suggestions, please add them in the comment. If you have a link to the church’s website, please add it. If you are a pastor or leaders of a local church, please leave a comment about your church.
I cannot vouch for any churches that folks might suggest in the comments. Always do due diligence. Read their websites and always read their resource list. Then, attend but do not join for a long time. When in doubt, give me a call.
“He’ll become a church planting expert for the SBC’s NAMB.”
I’ll be over in Alpharetta picketing if this happens!
“I received word today that the SBC’s North American Mission Board bought two houses to put up church planters. They claim it is associated with HBC. Could someone confirm this information? Is the NAMB buying real estate? Also, can anyone tell me how many of their church plants have failed?”
I have your evidence. At least, the concept and the Atlanta properties are confirmed in this article…
https://www.namb.net/news/namb-trustees-celebrate-local-church-planters-approve-send-relief-ministry-hubs/
Isn’t that exactly what Scientology does?
PETA will invade and free the white-tailed deer, and take J-Mac off to a sanctuary for wild burros (sometimes known as jacka**es).
What really bugs me is how much support this guy seems to have had from Moody, while they showed Julie Roys the door. They need to be more careful about the company they keep.
I’m a ’99 Moody grad, and I haven’t been that impressed by some of their recent choices.
Remember there are many campuses. Please suggest churches in all of those areas.
Does this sound batsh*t crazy to anyone else or this stuff normal now?
What is sad is that my guess is that HBC was forced by this recording to fire James MacDonald. I really doubt it was all about wanting to have integrity. It also may have been a realization that the money would stop if they didn’t fire MacDonald.
In other words all about survival of this group/franchi$e and very little with wanting to obey God or knowing that one day they will have to give an account (though they conveniently quote that passage to demand submission of church members). (Hebrews 13:17)
Here is a tweet showing how the elder board supported MacDonald late last year:
https://twitter.com/Blondiegirl29/status/1095802426395906048
“Can anyone recommend good churches near HBC?”
Define “good.”
Guest,
It sounds crazy to a lot of us who read and post at TWW for sure. To others, especially those who have been at Harvest churches? Probably many are struggling to grasp it. Because they were told to shut up, ask no questions,read no blogs/news and be good soldiers. I have a lot of compassion for these people. It takes time to deprogram from a personality cult.
He is going to jail
https://youtu.be/5ukvHuwFzBA
You have to see for yourselves the arrogance of these two disgraced pastors. Pride really does come before the fall.
He should go to jail. After his public rebuke and excommunication. Then the public rebuke of all pastors and elders who stood by, and excommunication of all who do not repent and lay down their office. This is not some silly little thing like, ‘JMac used a naughty word’. This is clear evidence that the man is a venomous, criminal-minded phony. And all those who heard this sort of talk for years need to go.
And the finances, since day one, need to be properly examined. Along with all the deals with LLC’s and foundations. Did some people make money (besides the MacDonald’s) off of the tithers’ hard-earned sacrifices? Let’s get the fired Parham in, give him immunity, and find out what he knows.
Then let’s look into all of the other leaders who have been connected with MacDonald all of these years. It is time to cleanse the temple.
“Following a lengthy SEASON of review, reflection, and prayerful discussion”….
The word “season” demonstrates these elders are super-spiritual and above criticism.
On Sunday they will announce that ManCow is now to be called HolyCow.
(drstevej returns to his post under the kitchen table)
TS00,
Now we are speaking the same language!
After all the controversy, the thing that sent the Elders over the edge was a recording played on a Chicago morning show. I listened to most of Mancow’s show yesterday, and the audio clips were shocking. It took that level of publicity to get JMac to back down. And I’m guessing that JMac is shopping for a new radio today, after his old one was accidentally thrown across the room yesterday.
My only prediction is that there will be more “Dones” in the Chicago area. Some will leave the faith, while others will find they have to leave the church to salvage their faith.
And JMac might go on an extended mission trip. Or start a prison ministry. Whatever happens, it’s going to be ugly, and sad.
Guest,
Yes. Yes.
Just remember, for the next month (beginning last Sunday) that Robert Morris is NOT in the pulpit at Gateway (his mentor Jimmy Evans is, but Evans can seem to multi-task 50 things at once). So we’ll see if they hook up in the next month and if we end up with Trinity Fellowship (fill in Naples or Chicago or your prediction).
Given that Gateway just started a “campus” inside Texas’ largest prison unit, maybe JMacD will hook up with Morris and start one inside an Illinois prison.
To plant child porn, you have to be in possesion of child porn.
Pedophiles don’t do well in prison.
James is done
James,
😉
Village Church of Barrington
“The elders followed him in this ridiculous path. 3 1/2 months later the elders decided to can MacDonald? Good night! However they were praying back then as well.”
It was football season. God was busy.
Perry Noble will become MacDonald’s life coach.
Words such as these strip people of dignity, lump them together, caricature them, dehumanize them:
He also allegedly insults CT, calling it a “. . . pipe-organ protecting, musty, mild smell of urine, blue hair Methodist loving, mainline dying, women preacher championing, emerging church adoring, almost good with all gays, and closet Palestine promoting Christianity” magazine.
Funny that the way he tries to disparage CT, sounds much more Christ like, than anything I’ve heard about him.
Totally nuts.
Wish I had thought of it.
Kristi,
Sound biblical teaching at VCB. No leather coats or fancy bands, just good Christian teaching and fellowship. Skip the fanfare and focus on Jesus.
I was really surprised I was first with that one!
The child pornography thing needs to be investigated. James MacDonald could find himself facing prison.
Mark Driscoll will introduce MacDonald to some big-money backers.
Speaking of Driscoll, he has a “church governance” seminar on February 27, and a church planting shindig on February 28-March 1. I plan on being very close by on one of those days.
“It was these disgusting comments that made the elders get busy… finally.”
I suspect the HBC elders heard plenty of disgusting comments from MacDonald over the years. He’s proven to be that sort of guy. It’s just that these particular comments were exposed to the world and they were forced to deal with it.
“For there is nothing covered up which is not going to be exposed, nor anything private which is not going to be made public. Whatever you may say in the dark will be heard in daylight, and whatever you whisper within four walls will be shouted from the house-tops.” (Luke 12:3)
Church of the Redeemer in Deerfield, IL (meets currently on the campus of Trinity Seminary)
Steve,
The Orchard in Arlington Heights
drstevej,
You are correct, Dr. Steve. “Season” was also a favorite word of Willow Creek Pastors as well. My thot is that “season” is preferred by those who are in difficult circumstances (of their own making) and are desperately hoping for a change in seasons”.
Something else that stuck out to me for om the Julie Roys post:
“I never actually wrote that story for the Tribune because in the middle of our investigation, Harvest sued me, which caused the Tribune to drop me from the story.”
“Repentance” should have been a part of that season. HBC elders are not squeaky clean on this mess. They had a “lengthy season” with MacDonald and saw him in all of his glory – they knew what he was like. They should have acted a long time ago before they were forced to – many of them should add their resignations to MacDonald’s termination announcement.
Not a peep out of any of the SBC notables … even though MacDonald was considered to be a prominent influencer in SBC’s New Calvinist movement. He was a featured speaker at the SBC Pastors Conference at four annual conventions and slated to speak again this year, before removing his name when the bad news started to break. He was an advisor for SBC’s “The Gospel Project” before he became an SBC member. He is/was a big potato – worthy of somebody saying something about his current dilemma.
I picked up on the word “season” too. I don’t know why it triggers me, but I really just want to hurl. Gah!!
Prayers are definitely needed for those at Harvest who are having the scales fall from their eyes and are realizing that the “shepherd” they have trusted for so long is in fact a wolf of the worst kind, and perhaps a criminal as well. JMac will likely flee to Florida, plant a new church with Vertical in the name somewhere with Marky Mark and the Gateway Funky Bunch on the “apostolic leadership team” and crank up another money machine based on his celebrity. Hopefully this fiasco has begun to open the eyes of the Church here in America, though I fear it will simply be ignored by most.
I went to The Elephant’s Debt website today and read their statement about the firing of MacDonald. The tone sounded wounded, sad and tired, but satisfied that, after seven years, perhaps the saga was now coming to a close. They expressed the hope and prayer that all who had been cheated and wounded by “J-MAC” would now find peace and healing. I must admit that I teared up a bit thinking about the courage of these men facing a battle that was surely them as David against a Goliath. For them, I would remind them of Jesus’ words, “Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
For James MacDonald, I would remind him that, “Don’t be misled—you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant. Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit.” (Galatians 6:7-8
I’ll give a few alternatives in the Elgin area to consider.
Western direction: Church on the Rock (Huntley), Fellowship Life Bible Church (Gilberts)
Eastern direction: New Life Community Church (campus of Marc Jobe’s church), First Christian Church of Elgin
Downtown: Elgin Vineyard, Discovery Church, 1st Baptist
Southern direction: Christ Community, Hosanna Lutheran
Northern direction: Watershed, Church In The Word
What did the recordings say?
Yes, NAMB does own property. I live in Denver and was part of a NAMB supported church planting team. NAMB owns a townhome a few miles from my home which they rent to church planters at a significant discount. When we moved here a few years ago, the lead guy on our team and his family was allowed to rent it for around $450/month. This is a place that is around 2,000 sq ft in an area of Denver where monthly rent for a place like that probably would be $2,000-$2,500. The lead planter and his family stayed there for over a year, possibly more; I don’t remember the timeframe for sure.
At any rate, they were put up in this nice townhouse for next to nothing while our family and the third couple on the team had no resources or financial assistance whatsoever. That’s not to try to say feel sorry for us or anything, and I never thought much of it at the time. We supposedly were an equal “team,” though, so it should have made us think twice.
Nonetheless, we found a 750 sq ft duplex for $950/month, which to be honest, I never really minded all that much. What did start to bother me, though, was how much our lead guy would go on about the costs of living in Denver and how difficult it was for his family, all the while being gifted a huge home for next to nothing and us barely scraping by. It was one of many signs that something wasn’t right there.
Eventually we left when his narcissistic/manipulative/spiritually abusive nature was made fully known to us. When we tried to show the toxic pattern of behavior to the NAMB representative for the city, it became clear he was more concerned about making sure another plant didn’t fail so NAMB was going to stick with our lead guy no matter what was said or showed to them. That’s all to say, I don’t know the numbers on how many of the NAMB plants fail but in Denver, at least, it doesn’t really seem like many make it very far.
Amen. VCB is a great church. We have been there for several years. A lot of former HBC attenders at VCB now.
The Orchard in Barrington
drstevej,
LOL!
Max,
Lifeway said tonight they are pulling all MacDonald’s books and won’t be publishing any in the future.
SIX SBC Pastors’ Conferences – 2007, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016!
Ever heard of “The Iron Law of Bureaucracy”
https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html
Will he give MacDonald his workout playlist for free, or charge him like everyone else, is what I wonder? 🙂
See:
Perry Noble Invites You to Win with Weight
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2017/12/21/perry-noble-invites-win-weight/
<Tangent:>
Brief conversation this morning on the extent to which singer/songwriter Ed Sheeran looks like a fitba’ player.
Lesley:
Isn't there a footballer called Ed Sheeran?Me:
Alan Shearer. He's a footballer. He looks like me.Lesley:
A LOT of people look like you, lovey.It’s true, to be fair. A growing number of men have great hair like I do.
</Tangent>
Incidentally, Alan Shearer does look like me, although the fotie currently shown on his Wikipedia entry – for some reason – doesn’t. It’s not a great fotie of him, really.
Christ Community Church in St Charles, IL is a very healthy church.
Hey, if nothing else, maybe MacDonald will find out what it feels like to get sued! I think CT and Julie Roys would have legitimate cases! Or do you think he might find some “biblical” reason for them not to?
I think he might end up in jail AND get sued. I read Mark Galli’s piece yesterday, and it was a bit too conciliatory, so I don’t think CT will do anything, but Julie Roys certainly has reasons for a suit, especially considering the Tribune dumped her piece when JMac filed suit.
They will drop him like a bad habit, and say, “James who? Never heard of him.” They don’t want to soil their own brand name with him. Besides, the only chump they will defend is Mahaney!
Paul D.,
I completely agree. Even saying this as a joke is utterly tasteless, & just such a horrible demonstration of character.
That’ll work, too! I guess he went with the “go big or go home” option!
Pray for all
Funny how after all the known issues with MacDonald, it took a Mancow to push the elders over the edge. Strange.
North Shore close to Deerfield campus:
North Suburban Evangelical Free Church (Deerfield)
Winnetka Bible Church
Village Church of Lincolnshire
Skokie Valley Baptist
Evanston Bible Fellowship
Cornerstone EFC (Glenview)
Orchard EFC Northfield campus
How is it that some derogatory comments about important people (I’m assuming these people are important) is what triggered the elders to fire James MacDonald, but NOT is inability to remain above reproach regarding finances, and if proven true, his actual misuse of a lot of money?
It’s like this in a lot of churches, isn’t it? Reminds me of Driscoll (I’m almost tired of remembering Driscoll), when his behavior was allowed to continue to harm the members of the congregation, but it was only public dissatisfaction that finally caused the elders to act. Or the situation with Karen Hinkley, when Matt Chandler had to step in and “let” Karen remove herself from the church roll because of the public backlash.
Here’s a suggestion to elders everywhere: if you don’t want the world and/or non-members in your church’s business, clean house like you’re supposed to before it takes public shame to cause you to do so.
There’s so much there to despise, but “blue-haired” meant as a piercing insult struck me. These “pastors” who hate their elderly congregants…
I, too, am really surprised that knifing and shooting photos of church members is not an offense that gets you fired. Defrocked, denounced, and divorced all sound like appropriate consequences of that action.
And then also possessing child pornography? Way around the bend with enablers on every hand.
Ken P.,
Hey, if God can use the Assyrians, he can use a shock jock. 😉
Paul D.,
Absolutely. Completely tasteless in any form, and utterly inexcusable.
“Driscoll who?” The potty-mouth preacher from Seattle found that some pentecostals would give him a stage during his unrepentant comeback. The bad-boy preacher from Chicago may go that direction, too.
Unbelievable … just shows you the dearth of discernment in SBC, combined with the other bad news about them this week.
They did that with Driscoll, too … but the damage has already been done. LifeWay will probably also silently purge MacDonald’s name from “The Gospel Project” on future editions; he was on the advisory council for that (although he was not a Southern Baptist at the time). The Gospel Project = The New Calvinist Project (subtle introduction to reformed theology) … and the pew ain’t got a clue.
As the Phillips translation puts that verse: “If he sows for his own lower nature, his ‘HARVEST’ will be the decay and death of his own nature.”
It’s obvious that MacDonald ruled HBC after his own lower nature – that never turns out well.
Not strange. Mancow had the very real probability of attracting unwanted attention outside the Evangelical bubble.
Indeed. Thousands are now left confused and disillusioned … not only HBC members, but New Calvinists across the American landscape who idolized the man and his message. But we need to remind them all, MacDonald was just a man and his message was just a message … those things fade, but Jesus remains – He will wipe away every tear.
I suppose that includes MacDonald’s book “Lord, Change My Attitude: Before It’s Too Late.” (yes, that’s the real title)
They do so to their own peril. Baby boomers are n ow entering the blue hair stage and they are Theo new with the disposable income to contribute. Young families with children do not have that ability. I think it would be amusing for some folks to set up a church for people over 65 with al sort of activities for them and watch the rain from the local churches.
Church suggestions
I will be repeating church suggestions in the comments.
Please tell pastors that I will post the name of their churches in the comment section if they reach out and leave a comment.
This is the sad consequence when cults of personality tumble. The world then looks at mega-mania and its mega-maniacs with another reason to trample the Name of Jesus in the street “See there is nothing to it!”
We attended HBC for a year, and left as blogs started reporting the mismanagement and character issues. I believe James was a gifted teacher of the Word and thousands have learned from him. That being said, it’s unfortunate to see the outcome with many hurting and searching. We pray for healing and restoration, whether you stay or choose to leave HBC.
As far as churches, we’ve attended several since relocating to the Chicagoland area in 2012. For over three years we’ve attended a location of Community Christian Church, where they are on mission to help people find their way back to God. A great place for people of all spiritual maturity levels to land and serve. As more mature believers, we feel God is using us to impact those new and growing in faith.
https://www.communitychristian.org/
Locations in Naperville, Plainfield, Yorkville, Montgomery, Aurora, Downers Grove, Lemont, Lincoln Park, and Lincoln Square.
Church suggestion :
You know, I started to try to define it, by the fourth line I realized it was getting ridiculously long. That is wa=hy I put in the warning: Research the church before you go. Read the website. Check out their suggestion of resources So, for example ,if they list CJ Mahaney books, you should know what you are getting!
me too. Thank you for the reminder.
Only if he actually obtained child porn as opposed to joking. Only if they can find he stole funds. Lots of caveats.
Church suggestion
+1 to those who suggested Village Bible Church of Barrington. The pastor there was quoted in Roys’ first World report and he knows VERY well what’s been happening and how to shepherd the wounded. Probably a good option locationally for those who went to Crystal Lake or commuted from the north down to the Rolling Meadows campus.
For the North Shore folks, I can vouch for the Evanston Vineyard. Awesome and diverse congregation.
Thanks for the laugh. Tulip is watching for you.
I’m still deprogramming from being a former Southern Baptist for nearly 70 years. The “other news” this week confirmed my suspicions about the depth of sin in a once-great evangelistic denomination.
Church suggestion:
Amen and amen.
You will know them by their fruit. Part of the fruit of MacDonald’s ministry = “many hurting and searching.” MacDonald may have been a ‘talented’ teacher, but not a Holy Spirit-gifted teacher, as his fruit has demonstrated. A gift of gab does not equal anointing. The American church has become confused about this … that’s why cults of personality flourish … a gift of gab takes the stage and an audience pays to keep them there because they are such good teachers … it’s the greatest show on earth.
He will join the ex-pastor of the harvest bible church here and flee also to fa. They will leave members that are hurt ,but really the question has to be asked now why did people put up with this ? What was the pay off in their own heart? I went to harvest for a small period of time, prayed like mad that God would show me if this was a good church. I got my answer when not one person helped me in my illness, I limped into that place and because I was so pittful to look at the church started a online sermon(was basically told to stay home )
They all knew how bad off I was,not a meal,card nothing.I even had a homegroup leader call and want to share taking the teens to youth group. Really you will risk me driving your teen after seeing that I can not walk ? The worst part is that the pastor stated to my husband that the church only helped members-he shot back that they did not have any trouble taking our money for the building project. The part that gives me the giggles is that they saw us as worthless not knowing that we had just inherited $$$ and was looking for a place to deposit a vey large sum into the Lord work .ha ha ha
“It appears that Roys and Galli are nice people and do not intend to sue him but they would be well within their rights to do so.”
+++++++++++
…although filing a lawsuit does not render a person no longer nice, good, decent, honest.
(i think i can do double negatives here)
dee,
Some say “if”
Others say “when”
Something tells me many many many more are finally “looking”
Its only a matter of time
Attentive regular Wartburgers with long memories will already be aware that Lesley and I are very fond of the Yorkshire coastal town of Whitby. That’s where we are the noo; so, it’s a fish diet for us for a couple of days. Could be a lot worse: there are several really good fishmongers here, all tucked away in wee cobbled back streets where nothing is at right-angles to anything else. And there’s an actual toy-shop – we’re going to drop in and see if we can get a nice 2000-piece jigsaw puzzle. Plus, there are amazing cake-shops everywhere, and arguably the best fish-and-chip shops in England. It’s a great place to be if your background insulin dose is dropping and you keep finding yourself with low blood sugar.
IHTIH
Ken P.,
Often times,Liars model worldly repentance only after being caught red handed.
This IS 1 of those times.
I listened to the Mancow show. Really bizarre, high energy, very ADHD. He repeatedly played a little jingle:
“Old McDonald had a CULT. EIEIO…”
It’s ironic that after so much work by Roys and the TED crew and others, including TWW, the thing that finally pushed the issue over the edge was a former friend of JMac, a shock jock who got ahold of some recordings and played them on the air. You just can’t write this stuff.
I think the Evangelical Industrial Complex needs more Mancows. And obviously, more Julie Roys, TED, TWW, etc.
With all due respect, the world can only handle one Mancow at a time.
I’m old enough to remember when there were enough Holy-spirit filled preachers of the Gospel who kept the church within moral boundaries. They are now rare and endangered species. So, Spirit-filled bloggers and “spirit”-filled shock jocks have stepped into the gap.
Amen.
Apparently, Dan Keller was escorted out of HBC’s meeting last night. For what reason, I don’t know, but I saw another person say the elders seemed intent on not removing the Macdonald p boys or any other elders and wouldn’t allow more discussion about it.
Elephant’s Debt wants to talk to Keller about the meeting.
A part of me wanted to ask “Was he covered in love or handcuffs” because that phrase is running around in my head. Up until about a year ago, I’d never heard the phrase “covered in love”. I assume this is something JMac specific?
I will say it is the most asinine saying, and my mind can go many awful (and non-Christ-like) places with it.
Church recommendation:
For those looking for a new church home around the Deerfield campus, I highly recommend North Suburban Free Church.
My wife and I have attended there almost 5 years now. The church has open books, is truly elder led by men of high character who are easily accessible and honest. The worship involves hymns, light liturgy, real people using their gifts, led by a humble worship leader who would rather be in the background helping others glorify God. The preaching is rock solid Bible based and challenges you to grow in your faith, while providing a loving reminder to look at Jesus.
__
Ministerial Moderated Motion: “Slow Change, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
The HBC imbroglio is another American watershed moment for 501c3 big box churches.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jlHz0wF0Ig
;~)
– –
DragonLady,
I almost spit out my coffee on that one.
In Orwell’s 1984 the Party’s Thought Police enforcers operated out of the Ministry of Love(TM).
Because Mancow realized he’d been USED.
Calling All Harvest Bible Chapel XLT Men and Remaining Elders to Resign Soon and Swiftly.
Men—Perhaps you should have pledged your unconditional support to Jesus and not to James.
Perhaps you should have exposed evil, protected the innocent and abused, fought for the weak and wounded rather than cover up and be complicit in wrongdoing.
Perhaps you would have heard more clearly from God if you had only read your Bibles and not expected to hear from God without opening His word.
Perhaps if you had not lied to the congregation, your flock, over and over again, partaking in Harvest’s unquenchable thirst to control the masses, people might not be so right to question if they can ever trust you again.
Perhaps if you weren’t partakers in Harvest’s unending desire to do damage control and engage in spin rather than truth-telling, people wouldn’t be so quick to agree that it’s time, once and for all, these men fear God and do what’s right.
Campus pastors you too must step down immediately. You arguably have been no less complicit and duplicit in all of your dealings as well, placing your concern more onto elevating Harvest’s image than on to the glory of our great God.
In the meantime, I will not stop sounding the alarm and confronting evil in the house of the Lord.
Leaders of Harvest, I challenge you to do as Jeff Donaldson did last night to Dan Keller in Elgin and escort me off of Harvest property this weekend.
I plan on being there, not to draw attention to myself or stir up controversy, but as a voice of reason. You have given people virtually no forum for getting their questions answered and have not allowed space for their concerns to be addressed.
I am calling on all ex-Harvesters to continue to sound the alarm and let their voices be heard. Rolling Meadows. Saturday. 5pm.
Mike Medow
Former HBC Member (1999 – 2011)
James MacDonald and the Walk In The Word TV program have now been removed from Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). Can’t confirm if this happened effective today, but the cancelation must be very recent. No mention of JMac or WITW on the TBN website.
Church recommendation.
Churches for ex-Harvest members to check out (all within conservative evangelicalism):
The Bridge (Barrington/Hoffman estates area)
City of Joy (Pingree Grove)
Fox Valley Church (West Dundee)
The Orchard (multiple campuses)
Vineyard (multiple locations)
Village Church of Barrington
Fellowship Life (Gilberts elementary school)
First Baptist Church (Elgin)
There’s also a church in St Charles with a number of ex harvest members attending, not sure of it’s name.
I’ve heard it in various evangelical circles, but it’s not hugely popular.
The HBC elders wrote it in one of their nnouncements. I believe it was the one where they said JMac was going on sabbatical to reflect on his actions, right before they fired Secrest from HBC Naples so JMac could preach there every week (though they’d been advertising his weekly preaching there since before they announced his sabbatical).
Think this “love” is all a sham…
Or as redefined by Screwtape.
Sometimes you say something that is SO bad even your water carriers can’t help you. That is what this recording is. Sheesh.
Song of Joy,
That was part of his plan – online broadcasting only – from 1st March 2019
Nick, I enjoy your comments and Scottish lingo. Have you ever been to Whithorn, Scotland? My grandfather was born & raised there.
Oh, I remember MiniLuv and MiniTru! That’s…a dang appropriate comparison, H.U.G.
Also, you KNOW it’s a sham, Ishy. It’s like “I don’t mean to be rude…(YES, YOU DO).” Or, being Southern, “Bless His heart…”
mandavilla,
Wow. Just wow. Soooo glad God kept you from donating that money to Harvest!
Church recommendation from Twitter
laura barringer
@lbarringer1
Church of the Redeemer in Deerfield. It is known to be a healing church. We’d welcome with open arms.
Mike Medow,
Posting your comment under my twitter feed.
Truly, this might be the most bizarre, circus-like scandal I’ve ever heard of in modern church history. I thought the weird-meter had hit its apex when we found out that Mancow’s DUI lawyer was JMac’s lawyer filing the lawsuit. Oh, no. That was just the beginning. This well is deep and might never run dry.
Well, you have a point. Maybe I should have said, more people LIKE Mancow, with a megaphone that can be used to expose things. And you can’t accuse Mancow of being overly religious, or reserved. He’s a rascal. Maybe we need more rascals.
I did listen to most of that day’s show, and it was a shock. I didn’t know that format was still on the air anywhere. But I live in a small town, and our talk show is much more relaxed. And most of my radio background was at an NPR station, which certainly has a different tone.
Anything hbc does now is just shuffling deck chairs on the titanic.
Fellowship Life Bible Church in Gilberts (just north of Elgin, IL).
You can find our site at http://fellowship-life.org/
https://twitter.com/todenmann/status/1086831170862673920
It took a shock jock to bring down a shock preacher.
Looks like JMac’s the one riding a tricycle with a midget balanced on his head.
“SEND IN THE CLOWNS…”
Jack,
The problem is the people and caring for them, the assets, and the debt that this man and elders have amassed.
Mike Medow,
Calling All Harvest Bible Chapel XLT Men and Remaining Elders to Resign Soon and Swiftly.
Men—Perhaps you should have pledged your unconditional support to Jesus and not to James.
+++++++++++++++++++
going forward, bring women in to lead.
I am shocked, saddened and hurt by James MacDonald, Harvest Bible and the Elders of the church. I have financially supported Walk in the Word for over 10 years. I will no longer give ANY financial support to Harvest Bible or Walk in the Word. Please remove me and my family from your mailing list IMMEDIATELY!! James MacDonald was definitely a wolf in sheep’s clothing and I for one feel the pain of having been bite! GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK!!!
This is very sad………………
Village Church of Barrington. There’s some folks there who were on staff at Harvest, or elders, and left ten years ago or so when all this stuff first began to be really noticeable. Good people, but I am biased to be fair. (I’m related to the senior pastor there, who was on staff at Harvest in the 2000’s.) They have been deeply sympathetic and warm to many ex-Harvesters in the past who have attended there (if only for a time) while trying to come to grips with the spiritual abuse and manipulation that they have gone through. A few families stayed but many moved on when they found a place that was better suited to their situation. I think it’s a great set-up insofar as the church has a definite identity of its own, not at all defined by bitterness or made up of an ex-harvest identity. The vast majority of people there never attended Harvest at all I believe. But at the same time it has leaders who have gone through the stages of grief about this long ago and have helped others cope.
Thanks, Dee!
Keep sounding the alarm!!
For those planning to resign their membership from Harvest, please read the information on the home page under “How to Resign from a Church”.
Of course, you can simply quit going, because there’s nothing in the Bible saying you can’t quit a church if you have concerns about its doctrines and/or practices (in fact there is a warning to the Laodicean church about being spit — actually vomited — out of His mouth, so that may be the closest we have to a command that we must do so).
The only language bad-boy preachers understand.
“Lord, Change My Attitude: Before It’s Too Late.” (book by James MacDonald) … obviously, he didn’t do that … too late for his HBC tenure. There’s hope for him down the road as there is for all of us – but, I would recommend that he consider another profession.
Baloney. Church is voluntary. If you’ve signed a membership agreement, forget about it. As a believer, the only covenant you need to enter into is the one purchased for you by the blood of Christ. There is freedom in Christ; feel free to walk away from HBC or any other place where leaders behave like MacDonald and/or serve up aberrant belief and practice.
You’d be a fool to.
This is Harvest’s own site.
For all we know, this is a lure to flush Dissidents for Reprisal.
I’m Sure Dee published a better way to resign, including lawyering up.
AND MAKE SURE YOU HAVE SECURITY ON YOUR HOME AND WORK SYSTEMS AGAINST HACKER ATTACKS!
“He claimed to put child pornography on Harold Smith’s computer…”
Yep–that’s what the Lord Jesus indicated in His Letters to the Seven Churches from the Book of Revelation, isn’t it?
Women could be just as bad (or worse–look at the Church in Thyatira, in the Letters to the Seven Churches). The problems in today’s churches likely stem from a lack of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (think Romans 8:9). Don’t you suppose that is the overall message of the Lord’s Letters to the Seven Churches? The Holy Spirit strives with each believer, but He is not necessarily IN a believer until the believer throws himself/herself on the Lord’s mercy–realizing, in humility, that we can do NOTHING to affect our standing before Him. “God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
Max,
Several years ago when “Lord Change my Attitude…” came out we did it in our Women’s Bible Study. I couldn’t finish it. I think it was in one of the videos that he mentioned issues with his elders at one point. I thought it odd he would mention his church troubles in a video that might get played for several years. In the study, I found James harsh and overly focused on God’s anger burning…it was weird and I found the study not veryhelpful. A couple of us quietly quit going to that study.
Just an observation. I used to attend Harvest for about a year in 2004 or so. Two things bothered me that MacDonald said during messages were.
“The business of the church is not the business of the church”
“Obey your leaders”
Also there was a guest speaker from Romania giving a message, at the end of it MacDonald decided to have another offering for the speaker. MacDonald didn’t want anyone to leave and admonished the congregation to give until it hurt. At the same time the church was collecting funds for a capital campaign. I left shortly after.
And it all blew up quite magnificently in his face.
So by business of the church, did he mean that what we do up here with your money and volunteerism and time is not your business? That would be a disgusting perversion of the concept of church.
“Obey your leaders”, at least as typically translated in the English, is also a nonsensical perversion of the original language of Hebrews 13:17. One has to wonder about the motivations of translators, what sort of pressures were working on them from church authorities or their own biases that have caused them to render a concept in Koine Greek that means you should have a persuadable heart, one that honestly considers what a leader has to say, into just plain old “obey”. If I were to tell my children, “Hey, guys, at least consider what I have to say”, do you think they’d interpret that the way James MacDonald or any of these abusive personality types in the church hierarchies do? Of course not!
Even if the Bible did just flat say in Hebrews 13:17 “obey” in the strongest possible way, as in to a superior authority (which it absolutely does not), the context would be so markedly different from Piper or MacDonald or MacArthur or Driscoll or any of the motley crew. Those leaders in the First Century church were literally putting their lives on the line, living at the margins, pretty well locked out of a lot of careers, the most disenfranchised of minorities, people who were being crucified and burned at the stake right and left, people giving up any shot at a comfortable, affluent existence in the world to serve Jesus and people, and leading people not by compulsion, but by godly example. If someone told you to obey (in the strongest sense) such a person, wouldn’t it make perfect sense? And yet, the word Paul used in Hebrews 13:17 was arguably the weakest of all words translated “obey” or “submit” from the Greek. The weakest!
“You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure.” (2 Cor 9:7)
Seems there were a lot of things that MacDonald didn’t understand about how to lead God’s people.
There are a lot of New Calvinist celebrities who have a love problem … it’s just not the first descriptor that pops up for the new reformers. Such teachers should never be given a microphone.
‘The people’ made this man. Just like Mars Hill & SGM. There are victims, sure. Children & family members that were coerced into it but not all the congregation is innocent
I wasn’t going to bash New Calvinism, but I feel that I need to speak up. Some of the most unloving,arrogant “Christians” I have ever met, have been Calvinists (hint: never trust a Christian who calls himself/herself by a name such as “Calvinist” or by any other title other than a follower of Christ–a Christian). Probably stems from most Calvinist’s firm conviction that they were selected to be redeemed when others were selected to go to hell. I have met Reformed people who quite kind and loving but, overall, Calvinists seem a lot like Calvin–who was the virtual dictator of Geneva. According to historical accounts had a nine-year-old girl executed for striking her mother. He was also responsible for the deaths (and sometimes torture) of at least 54 other people. Michael Servetus was ordered burned at the stake for heresy by Calvin. Where in the New Testament does it say that we are allowed to murder others with whom we disagree theologically. I have met Calvinists who like to make excuses for him–“it was the times he lived in”–“the Roman Catholics began the whole idea of executing heretics”, etc. The Holy Spirit does NOT lead someone to murder–but we know who does–“He was a murderer from the beginning…”
Off topic, but…….
Akin, Mohler comment on CJ:
https://www.chron.com/houston/article/Leading-Southern-Baptist-apologizes-for-13618120.php
That’s pretty shocking!
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
ishy,
One is tempted to think that “CYA” time has arrived for the CJ connection with the upper reaches of US evangelicalism.
Was it *really* a ‘recent development’ though?
and did they *really* take ‘immediate action’?
Maybe JM isn’t the only phony here.
Erin,
erin, i don’t have to throw myself or whatever spiritualized religious prerequisite that was for the holy spirit to be within me and real and active.
women are the toughest beings on earth, physically mentally emotionally and (as is relevant to this discussion) concerning their egos. they have to be tough in all these things just to survive. they are keenly aware of multiple things all at once, seeing the end from the beginning.
it’s high time christians appointed and hired based on skills and qualifications instead of the spiritualized nonsense of what presents as the male gender.
longing for the day when this silly religion of mine can simply be practical.
If Mohler says it, the whole flock will follow suit, there’s no doubt.
I actually don’t consider the New Cals evangelical, though, even though Southern Baptists have long been considered so. Theology-wise they do not believe in conversions, and they rarely talk about Jesus. They also tend not to preach the gospel, though some say you still should.
I just spoke with one of the HBC elders that I know, and urged him to resign given all the damage he and HBC have done to the faith. His response was typical HBC-speak, that I was right, but that he was praying about what to do and “getting low before the Lord.” Not a word of actual apology.
First of all, this is one of the guys who signed his name to that pledge of “unconditional support” for MacDonald about a month ago. Second, he endorsed the lawsuit last year. Each time, he claimed he’d prayed about it. So if his prayer life is such that he’s still making such obviously unwise decisions, what does that say about his real motivations?
I suspect this person in particular really likes the title of “Elder” and will not relinquish it willingly. If he has to say he’s “getting low” before the Lord, that would imply he has not been doing so all this time. Shouldn’t that be our default position as Christians anyway?
It’s been said that a smart man learns from his own mistakes, but that a wise man learns from other people’s mistakes. To the extent that I aspire to be wise, I am trying to learn from this man’s mistakes.
Specifically, be VERY careful about claiming to feel “led” to do something through prayer. Perhaps that’s the case, but there’s a real risk that you’re merely substituting your will for God’s, and just using God as a shield from criticism. That’s a form of blasphemy.
While I was reading your comment, exharvestmember, I was thinking exactly what you said: They use their supposed prayer life as a shield against criticism. I’ve seen elders defend their actions with the claim that they’d even “fasted over it” as if not eating supper made them unquestionably correct.
I’ve also seen elders in trouble refuse to take obvious action because they “were praying about it” but hadn’t been told what to do. I’m all for thoughtful consideration, but they spoke as if they couldn’t run out of a burning building unless God audibly commanded it.
Naturally, they do not apply the standard of doing absolutely nothing in the face of danger and harm until receiving irrefutable, personal confirmation straight from Heaven to anything else in life…just this one embarrassing and difficult church matter.
Mancow is being cagey with these recordings. Who made him the decision maker? He needs to release what he has, and let the chips fall where they may. And if he refuses, then someone else needs to get a hold of these tapes, before they ‘get away’. These untrustwothy people are still in control of an enormous amount of money, as well as influence over a great many naive people. The last thing we need is for them to get away with it, slink out the back door and start all over again somewhere new.
Spiritual abuse is pretty difficult to define, and I’m not sure they can be nailed for it, however blatant. Nobody was forced to attend. But if they were hiding all of the financials and using this so-called church like a personal piggy bank for their own profit and investing . . . they need to answer to laws that are intended to protect people from fraud.
This shows how defenseless a so-called ‘elder-led’ (a.k.a. mob run) church is. Thousands of people, and no voice or ability to unite against their abusers.
TS00,
I mean seriously, word is they are considering making Landon MacDonald the interim pastor? Anyone who stays if that happens is a hopeless victim asking to be mugged.
“In an interview with the Houston Chronicle, Al Mohler said for the first time publicly that he regrets his embrace of C.J. Mahaney, the former leader of the non-Southern Baptist group Sovereign Grace Ministries, now known as Sovereign Grace Churches.”
Finally, the potato became too hot to handle! Mohler and Akins are just trying to steer the Houston Chronicles away from dragging their names into this mess with future HC articles. Mohler is a master deceiver who will take the high road when it is convenient, to protect his personal reputation and the New Calvinist tribe he leads.
Good Lord!! When will this madness end?!!
Church suggestion
Village Church of Barrington is a really good church, Pastor David Jones handles the word supremely. Sunday worship is more traditional, Saturday worship is more Harvest style.
These guys have got so low before the Lord that He doesn’t see and hear them at this point.
“Certainly, the hand of the Lord is not so short that it cannot save,
nor is His ear so dull that it cannot hear.
But your iniquities have made a separation between
you and your God,
and your sins have hidden His face from you
so that He will not hear.” (Isaiah 59:1-2)
I doubt that MacDonald ever preached that passage at HBC! There can be no healing and restoration at HBC until its leaders – all of them – humble themselves, repent and turn from ‘their’ wicked ways. In being complicit to MacDonald’s sins, they have sinned themselves. “To him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin” (James 4:17). They knew the “real” MacDonald and did nothing.
Elastigirl, 2 Corinthians 13:5 says, “Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith.” This is not some “spiritualized religious prerequisite” as you have termed it, but Peter makes it clear in 2 Peter 3:9 that salvation is predicated on repentance. True repentance acknowledges God’s undeserved mercy on we sinful creatures. You make it sound like you worship women when you say that women “…are keenly aware of multiple things all at once, seeing the end from the beginning.” This is a descriptor that God uses for Himself. I hope you are not attempting to deify women. I am also, like you, a daughter of Eve and I know that women are more easily deceived than men. This new type of “feminism” is a deception and will destroy the souls of those caught up in it.
Do you really think that Our Lord Jesus would appreciate your wholesale denigration of men as “the spiritualized nonsense of what presents itself as the male gender”? He was, after all, a man, as well as the 2nd person of the Trinity. In Matthew 3:8, John the Baptist rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees, “Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.”
Churches suggestions:
I’ve been a pastor in NW suburbs and NW Chicago for over a decade now and know a few churches to recommend. I’m not objective enough to recommend my own church. First though, I HIGHLY suggest seeking a church that employs a congregational model, but elder led (not elder rule) governance. With congregational models, the books will be open and there are pathways to biblically hold elders (and pastors) accountable. As many have learned through this, governance models are very important. Also – be ready to forsake bells and whistles for the sake of community and missional ministry. Some of these churches have great programs. Some are minimal, but are very loving Christ-centered and missional centered communities seeking to proclaim the Gospel in their neighborhoods. Here are my recommendations. I know many of these pastors personally.
Algonquin – The Bridge Church
Barrington – Village Church of Barrington
Cary – Living Grace Community Church
Crystal Lake – Evangelical Free Church of Crystal Lake
Woodstock – Good News Church
Spring Grove – LifeSpring Community Church
Arlington Heights – The Orchard
Rolling Meadows – Meadows Christian Fellowship
Wheeling – Our Savior EFC
Schaumburg – Calvary Community Church
Itasca – Christian Fellowship Church
Geneva – Chapelstreet Church
Niles Area – Cornerstone Evangelical Free Church
Libertyville – Crosslife EFC
Lincolnshire – Village Church of Lincolnshire
Belmont Craigin/NW Chicago area – Northwest Community Church, The Brook, Resurrection City Church (Avondale), Sow Community Church (Irving Park)
Oak Park – Village Church of Oak Park
Chicago – Moody Church, Holy Trinity Church, Village Church of Chicago, Addison Street Community Church
Soooo … how will the SBC deal with the sins of omission by Mohler when it comes to Mahaney? In the SBC system, Mohler is a Southern Baptist employee who stays on his throne by a board of trustees who love and adore him. Driscoll was also surrounded by a group of yes-men … as was Hybels … as was MacDonald. It’s only when enough of them stood on their feet and shouted “Enough is enough!” (albeit pressured by outsiders to do so) before their kingdoms crumbled.
Mohler is a kingpin in SBC who has successfully led a rebellion of the young, restless and reformed to wrench the denomination from its majority non-Calvinist membership – by stealth and deception when necessary. His long-time endorsement of his bud Mahaney, amidst the cries of SGM victims, without SBTS trustees doing anything about it is evidence of just how powerful he is. An SBC resolution in 2013 “On Sexual Abuse of Children” had Mohler/Mahaney in mind … but, again, the SBTS trustees remained silent. Watchblogs have been addressing the shortcomings of Mohler and Mohlerites in high places for years! Will the SBTS trustees do the right thing now? The SWBTS trustees finally did with Patterson.
I’m not so sure Patterson was not simply thrown under the bus by Mohler. And he will throw Mahaney, or his own grandmother under too, if necessary.
Erin,
Ah, Erin, on that “women are more easily deceived than men” tagline there, you might want to check your facts. It’s very well known that financial fraud agents are specifically trained to denigrate the advice of a man’s wife (until he won’t listen to her concerns when he “invests” in the fraud) because the women are more likely to detect that “something is wrong” and not be willing to do it, saving their family that heartache.
If so, the SWBTS Trustees blessed it. Lots of folks have been trying to throw Mohler under the bus for years, but at the end of the day the SBTS Trustees will have to deal with this.
Mahaney might start squealing on his old buds now.
Vinnie,
No, I’m afraid I’ve never been to Whithorn; in fact I don’t know the Galloway area at all. I generally get sucked in by the bigger hills, which are all in the north!
In Julie Roys’ article, she said she has heard the whole thing and verifies it. She also says that the conversations they were recorded from were with huge men in the evangelical world, and their responses might be as bad as JMac’s. I think Mancow might be worried more about lawsuits from those individuals than HBC.
Isn’t this what the Old Testament displays, as God allows one wicked aggressor to take down another, and then he too gets thrown down? The Calvies might believe that God is moving his little pawns around on the chessboard of life, but I believe it is merely a demonstration of the fact that evil begets evil. There is no such thing as loyalty among thieves who are protecting their own ass . . . ets.
ishy,
Roys claims to have heard the one 50-minute tape. Mancow claims to have 100 hours of recordings. Let’s hear them, and not lock them up like the Watergate tapes were until all of the important people could be wiped off.
The first Harvestgate tape was hard to listen to! I’ve heard enough!! Reminds me of a Scripture:
“Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall … ‘have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol?!’ They say, ‘The Lord does not see us; the Lord has forsaken the land.’ Again, he said, ‘You will see them doing things that are even more detestable.'” (Ezekiel 8)
American Church: Have you seen enough yet?! Do you need to see more detestable things?! It’s high time for doing church without God to end! Will you humble yourselves, pray, repent and seek His face again? Unless you do, there are more MacDonalds, Driscolls, Hybels, etc. etc. headed your way.
Church suggestion:
Three great churches nearby and two great schools as options as well, I don’t see how HBC remains, the corruption from MacDonald goes thru the entire ministry, please pray God leads his flock to Godly communities and that healing begins.
Churches;
Village Church of Bartlett, Pastor Michael Fuelling, https://vcob.org
Christ Community Church, Pastor Jim Nicodem, https://ccclife.org
Westminster Presbyterian Church, Pastor Doug O’Donnell, https://www.wpchurch.com
All three churches have this in common, they follow the gospel, they have biblical governance, they don’t carry debt and they are lead by Godly, humble and gifted speakers who love for and care for their flocks.
Schools;
Westminster Christian School, Head of School Steve Hall, https://www.westminsterchristian.org
Wheaton Academy, Head of School Steve Bult, https://wheatonacademy.org
These schools are lead by Godly individuals, solid programs and great communities, they don’t care the burdens of debt.
I’m sure there are more great options out there, I can vouch for these unequivocally though. I know the history, leadership and character of all of these institutions personally. My family attends Christ Community Church and have been blessed by our relationships there.
Since Mancow also stated he’d been warned that HBC might try to hack kiddie porn onto his home system to silence him (like said in the tape he played on-the-air), HE ALSO NEEDS TO MAKE SURE HIS ELECTRONICS ARE ALL SECURE.
Church suggestion:
Three great churches nearby and two great schools as options as well, I don’t see how HBC remains, the corruption from MacDonald goes thru the entire ministry, please pray God leads his flock to Godly communities and that healing begins.
Churches;
Village Church of Bartlett, Pastor Michael Fuelling, https://vcob.org
Christ Community Church, Pastor Jim Nicodem, https://ccclife.org
Westminster Presbyterian Church, Pastor Doug O’Donnell, https://www.wpchurch.com
All three churches have this in common, they follow the gospel, they have biblical governance, they don’t carry debt and they are lead by Godly, humble and gifted speakers who love for and care for their flocks.
Schools;
Westminster Christian School, Head of School Steve Hall, https://www.westminsterchristian.org
Wheaton Academy, Head of School Steve Bult, https://wheatonacademy.org
These schools are lead by Godly individuals, solid programs and great communities, they don’t care the burdens of debt.
I’m sure there are more great options out there, I can vouch for these unequivocally though. I know the history, leadership and character of all of these institutions personally. My family attends Christ Community Church and have been blessed by our relationships there.
Eagle is also suspicious as to whether JMac is still calling the shots at HBC from behind the scenes. His example was Mafia Dons running their Family from prison; mine was retired Japanese Emperors wielding more power as Power Behind the Throne than they could as Emperor.
WHAT SINS?
“O Come Let Us Adore Him,
O Come Let Us Adore Him,
O COME LET US ADOOOOORE HIIIIIIIMMMM…”
The simplest way to become a Millionaire Megachurch Pastor is to be BORN the Son and Heir of a Millionaire Megachurch Pastor. These MenaGAWD could give the Saudi Royal Family or Kims of North Korea lessons on keeping all that POWER in the family, passed on from father to son to grandson to great-grandson… (And remember inbreeding like the Pharoahs and Spanish Hapsburgs to make sure no outsider can ever get their hands on any — “If your family tree does not fork…”)
“Mohler Said It,
I Believe It,
THAT SETTLES IT!”
Reminds me of an interview Mohler had with Greg Gilbert on his radio program a fews years ago to promote Gilbert’s new book “What is the Gospel?” (which is an appropriate title, because these New Calvinists have lost their way on that … but, that is another topic). Anyway, at one point in the interview, Gilbert responded to a question from Mohler “Oh, Dr. Mohler, what a sweet question!” Gave me the creeps – Mohlerites really do adore King Mohler.
Church suggestion:
Steve,
We attend The Village Church of Barrington. We have a Saturday Night Service and two on Sunday. Dr. David Jones is an excellent pastor!
They’re very good at passing power, but just like with ancient Israel, the sons are always seem to mess everything up.
It’s a fair point, though from my ex-“infernalist” posture, neo-cals and more traditional evangelicals look to be quite close to each other in the sense that they have very similar conceptions of “the bad news” (their shared view of post-mortem punishments) that creates the context within which “the good news” is seen to be good.
Neo-cal (and some ‘hyper’ traditional reformed) reluctance to issue public “invitations” is a natural outworking of their strong conception of divine sovereignty (and, I think in some, a fear that self-generated false-faith will lead to false conversions; from that perspective it can appear safer to state the bare details of the biblical narrative and rely on the Spirit to create true faith in the elect).
Without meaning to be contentious, I’ll note that it appears to me that they may have a point in that the conventional 20th century “sawdust trail” conception of what it means to “preach the Gospel” does not have strong precedent in the New Testament records of what the apostles actually said when they were “preaching the Gospel.” I suspect that a lot of what is spoken of as “gospel” in our day would look a bit strange to the leaders of the first churches.
“Rags to Riches to Rags” is a proverb in both English and Chinese for a reason.
Caesar Augustus –> Caesar Tiberias –> Caesar Caligula
Sure that wasn’t “Oh, DR Mohler, I WANT TO HAVE YOUR CHILD!”?
(AKA Harley Quinn has met her Joker…)
elastigirl,
I recently heard of a former elder thanking a former member for suing them and holding them accountable. I think law suits in these cases can be part of changing a culture that refuses to love truth and hate evil. How much better if these leaders were motivated by a love for the Lord and people. Perilous times in church world these days!
Erin,
Everything you described can be boiled down to a sincere “I was wrong. Forgive me, God. Thank you.”
None of the religious histrionics you describe required. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit don’t withhold themselves because a person is not remorseful enough, or self-loathing enough. until a person has ginned up some nebulous quota of inner self-flagellation.
Women have inherent abilities and skills. I simply acknowledged them. They are an asset to every organization, formal or informal. Why on earth is this a threat to men and to God? It is something to be celebrated and capitalized on by everyone.
women are more easily deceived than men? Who told you that?
Yet, the Bible tells us that Eve was deceived and that Adam was not. (1 Timothy 2:14) I think that many women, in the past, because of their more limited exposure to the “world,” were more gullible than men. 2 Timothy 3:6, in warning about false teachers, says, “They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires…” Sin, of course, weakens us in our ability to resist deception and sin. Eve was already under Satan’s influence when she exaggerated (lied) about God’s warning. God did NOT tell them that they couldn’t “even touch” the forbidden fruit. Adam was right there with her and said nothing, when he KNEW what was going on. But anyone can be deceived–as in your example.
You exaggerate, elastigirl. I never advocated “religious histrionics”. But a true conversion of the heart and soul, takes a heart of stone and turns it into a heart of flesh. It cleanses the soul of the filth of this world by means of the Blood of Jesus. One should be able to tell that a true conversion has taken place, by the changes in one’s life, no matter how subtle. Those who are very close to the converted will likely be able to detect the difference.
1 John gives the criteria for determining whether we are in the faith or not. I particularly like John’s admonition at the end when the Holy Spirit tells us through John to keep away from idols.
A lot of the counterfeit comes down to two steps.
STEP 1: Sell membership of the church/kingdom as cheaply as possible; this will both swell the membership and create impressive sales figures (which may not always be inflated, but sometimes are).
STEP 2: Browbeat the “converts” into giving more, trying harder, working more sacrificially, etc etc etc.
Been there.
“I am amazed that you have so quickly transferred your allegiance from him who called you in the grace of Christ to another “Gospel”! Not, of course, that it is or ever could be another Gospel, but there are obviously men who are upsetting your faith with a travesty of the Gospel of Christ.” (Galatians 1:7 Phillips)
The faith of millions across America could not be any more upset than the travesty of the “Gospel” which is begin preached across the New Calvinist landscape. MacDonald is but one example of a new reformer who stretched the boundaries of grace, emphasizing doctrines ‘about’ grace rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the living Christ. I hope the good people of HBC will now find a place where THE Gospel is preached in the Chicago area, churches with leaders who are the best examples of its transforming power.
Been there too. How did we ever get to “professional Christians” from the early churches where leadership was granted, by the people, to those who were the most spiritual and godly? That qualification does not require “theological education”–just a heart devoted to Christ and to doing His work, by caring for His sheep. Cheating and abusing the sheep is of the devil.
“Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares … Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” (Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
Mega-mania shouts as a carnival barker to the undiscerning masses “Hurry, Hurry, Hurry!” And so they come to do church without God, but it feels so good.
ishy,
“She also says that the conversations they were recorded from were with huge men in the evangelical world”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
wow… all of sudden…. this is amazing.
just when i thought i expended all my pent up exhales and sighs, another one comes from even deeper.
it’s like all the ‘revolutions’ i’ve sort of read about (or enjoyed watching in The Wonder Years, The Scarlet Pimpernel…)
[of course, all the revolutions were a relatively long time coming]
Deborah,
“I think law suits in these cases can be part of changing a culture that refuses to love truth and hate evil.”
++++++++++++++++
reminds of when carol burnett sued the national enquirer, way back when.
(because it makes me feel better, i’ll clarify that i was a young teen ager at the time — she’s my favorite comedian, so i payed attention to headlines)
she said, “If they’d given me $1 plus car fare, I’d have been happy, because it was the principle. They didn’t give a darn about my rights as a human being,” she continued. “I didn’t do a thing to The National Enquirer; they did it to themselves.”
“Money and titles may be hereditary,” she would say, “but brains are not,”…”
― Baroness Emmuska Orczy
One of my favorite stories of all time!
Church suggestion
Nadine, Westminster Presbyterian Church (PCA) is next door to Harvest in Elgin, has an excellent school (Pre-K through 12th grade) and is a conservative evangelical church with expository bible preaching, thriving youth group and a former Harvest Kids teacher leading the Children’s Church. OUr family loves Westminster! wpchurch.com
Max,
This YouTube covers the “cheap grace” situation about as well as any. Many of you will have seen it. It is called “Wake Up Church!” Very moving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzyGrcCv-fk
Huge? Hmm.
Would that be “huge” like actor/stuntman Ian Whyte? (7′ 1″ tall, in case anyone’s wondering…)
Or “huge” like, say, a really really fat laddie?
Or huge in the secular marketing sense?
Most of those guys look like a kid could beat them up….
But I apologize for using a vague descriptor!
Erin,
Thanks for the link. David Wilkerson accurately “prophesied” the current condition of the American church.
Here is another YouTube from David Wilkerson. He’s gone on to glory but his words still ring out in anguish for the Church that he loved. By the way, he predicted his own death and the way he would die.
Whoops, I forgot to include the link. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUh2xLmJy4
Agreed. Members need to sweep out the entire corrupt gang of fake elders and find some trustworthy individuals to oversee the creation of healthy oversight. Or wipe the dust from their feet.
TS00,
And if I was one of them, I would be demanding that Macdonald and his enablers pay back every penny of the debt they ran up. Then pay back all of the excessive income they have secretly paid themselves all these years.
Having images of volcanoes in the Highlands…
I’m not seeking titillation. I want every one of those phonies exposed. Heard one recording of a supposed Q & A by Harvest elders; long rah rah for James, non answers and lots of P.R. about what a great church they have. Hogwash. Every one of them should be tarred and feathered, then run out of town. How many elders left this corrupt place? And now one has to have a little more sympathy that it may have been more than NDA’s that kept them quiet, but literal fear of what MacDonald might do to them and their reputations if they dare speak out. Let’s see them sweep out the whole bunch, then start talking to people who had enough integrity to leave.
I am not vengeful, I simply want to see the whole truth come out, so that people start asking important questions about whatever church they attend. All spiritual abuse is inappropriate, and holding so-called elders clearly accountable to the people is the first step to avoiding this sort of outrageous abuse. Whatever happened to open meetings, open books, honest answers to public questions, congregational votes on annual budgets? And biblical ‘discipline’ was done by the entire congregation, not the elders, and was reserved for egregious sin – like this. This congregation needs to discipline these elders right out the door.
Honestly, right now, there is not enough popcorn in all of Orville Redenbacher’s kingdom.
TS00,
Yes, amen, testify, Lord let it be.
“They seek him here,
They seek him there,
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere…”
I couldn’t agree with you more, exharvester.
Very well said.
It’s shocking how many professing Christians don’t seem to understand this.
If more evangelicals spent reading God’s word and less time “praying” about matters God has ALREADY revealed in His word, folks wouldn’t have to pray over things where God has already spoken a sure word.
Ain’t it the truth. God gave us brains for a reason.
Reminds me of Exodus 14:15 “Then the LORD said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to Me? Tell the sons of Israel to go forward.” In other words “Quit praying and GET MOVING!”
Erin,
However, none of that means that, as a whole group, women are more easily deceived than men. That is a step beyond the Scripture, though one conveniently used by the world of complementarians to demote women to a lesser position, whatever ‘role’ equality they claim. I know just as many gullible men as women, & equally educated, women are easily, easily, the equal of a man in judgement.
It’s been ages since I read explanations like yours & while it sounds oh-so-Biblical, it isn’t.
Mike Medow,
Absolutely. That’s the whole point underlying Psalm 119:11 “Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You.”
They (generic they) get it from a particular reading of Scripture which in their view must hold face-value sway for all times and in all spaces regardless of any real world conditions to the contrary which may arise.
GreekEpigraph (up-thread at 10:42 AM) gives an excellent example of this.
Everyone at my Calvie church knew it was the wives of the bumbleheaded elders that kept them on the rails. Heard the pastor’s mother tell an elder once that his wife was definitely the wind beneath his wings . . . and the elder agreed. If I dared to be sexist, it would be to suggest that many women appear to have an innate intuition that most men lack.
Once again, spot on, exharvester.
TS00,
I always think of Abigail, who averted the catastrophe her husband Nabal nearly brought upon her and their entire household. She would have been excommunicated from these comp churches for not submitting to the authority of her husband. Of course, God, not understanding complementarianism, struck down her unwise husband and she became the wife of the future King.
Erin,
“One should be able to tell that a true conversion has taken place, by the changes in one’s life, no matter how subtle.”
++++++++++++++++
“should”
and if one can’t (if you can’t, let’s say), does that mean a true conversion hasn’t taken place?
christian criteria is all over the map.
having the right tone is legit. having the right display of feelings is legit. using the right words is legit. having the right facial expression is legit. adopting a fervent expressiveness when singing in church is legit. praying with a look of concentration while leaning forward with one hand supporting forehead and the other hand making a fist is legit (maybe he just has gas)…
Well we will certainly see how the Church handles this on Sunday. A lot is resting on what is said and done. If this is all happy happy, lets just give it to the Lord, you are loved, then I believe a lot of us will be gone. Just holding on at this point to be part of the rebuilding but if there is no transparency , no honesty, I fear harvest will fall.
Well… there
arevolcanoes in the Highlands; albeit long-extinct and largely eroded.God placed a desire to please, in Eve’s heart–it would be a strength in His godly Kingdom (and will be again, when His Kingdom comes to earth). Unfortunately, in this world, ruled by the powerful spiritual force that Satan is, it turned out to be a liability–that childlike innocence–a gullibility, if you will. Adam was supposed to protect her from Satan’s marauding. Instead, Adam stood by and allowed Eve to fall into Satan’s clutches.
But, it is true that some women are more prepared to discern God’s will and fight for Him–that is true. Our God is a God of variety, after all. Among the daughters of God, we have our Deborah’s and Jael’s in addition to our Mary’s and Eve’s (and everything in between). I have provided Scripture to support what I have said–how is it not Biblical? The strength of a Christian woman is that, because she has a more humble and weak status in this world, the Holy Spirit is often able to reach and strengthen her heart more easily. Far from denigrating women, what could be more honoring of women than the Lord seeking the very godly woman that Mary was, and magnificently blessing her with the bearing of His Son?
Now that the Jezebel spirit of extreme “feminism” has taken root in the hearts of many women, I fear for the daughters of Eve. In their bitterness, I fear that they will gain the world but lose their souls. Embracing the abomination of abortion is just one evidence of the increasing depravity of women without Christ.
Erin,
Ah, the old “you’re privileged because you’re inferior” line. Remind me to ask my husband if my hemline is modest yet comely.
That is the Congregational format for church governance, and JMAC had already long ago declared that Congregational church governance was “of the devil”. That it was outrageously self-serving did not seem to occur to his “elders” at the time. My husband and I are former “Harvesters”. We would never again join any church without a Congregational format.
No one else can make that determination for you. But, if you cannot tell that God has changed your heart and soul with a new spiritual birth from above, perhaps He hasn’t.
There are thousands, perhaps millions, of eyes watching to see how this is handled at Harvest. This has effected Christendom beyond the walls of HBC. I am so sorry that you and yours have been caught up in this mess, Daniel, and wish you the best.
I will have to add that to my list of meaningless Christianese phrases.
Who says women are inferior? I certainly didn’t. What’s much more important is that God never says that women are inferior. He says, through the Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 3: “In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over by observing your pure and reverent lives…the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God…the holy women of old…trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands…You are [Sarah’s]daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do…In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. SHE MAY BE WEAKER THAN YOU ARE, BUT SHE IS YOUR EQUAL PARTNER IN GOD’S GIFT OF NEW LIFE. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered.” (emphasis mine)
When things are very obvious in the scriptures, why do they expect God to give them a special message about what to do, anyway? I expect God would tell them, “You know what to do! Now do it!”
Their duty has been clear for a LONG time–God spoke on it often throughout the New Testament. Apparently, these “elders” were too cowardly to perform it and some are apparently still afraid to face the consequences of performing their godly duties. When will Christian men understand that taking the route of cowardice will only make for much more misery in the end? Probably too late to pray that these men grow a spine–but not too late to pray that men (and women) of strength and bravery will take their places and fight for the God-given right to be free.
This statement needs some citations. What are your proofs that women are more easily deceived than men? Examples?
This is just folklore that was made up by those men who want to use the creation story to justify oppression of women. It appears you have bought into that falsehood and are doing mental gymnastics to make it make sense. I understand because there was a time I bought into it, too, that I was convinced that this was God’s way and that we honored him by following it even if it didn’t make sense. In the real world we are surrounded by examples of deluded men and women who have got it right. Sex is no predictor of gullibility, not at all. If the gospel is true, then we should see that truth borne out in what we see in the actual world around us.
Erin, over the last decades a different gospel has slowly taken shape and supplanted the original in many churches and Christian lives. This gospel defines and elevates sex roles to sacraments; as though we come to God through our sex role and relate to him through it. It elevates marriage to the place of an idol. Doctrines have been invented and expounded on to great lengths about femininity and masculinity- things which Jesus never cared about or spoke on. Itching ears have demanded more and more books, speakers, organizations, programs… At the same time, the things which Jesus did hold important and speak on have been pushed aside. It has been a subtle change in direction but having branched off from the true path, it has been moving steadily further away. We need to drop all of these extraneous ideas and come back to our first love, to Jesus Christ. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
That is read straight into Scripture rather than derived from it.
And whilst you may have quoted Scripture, it actually doesn’t support the point you are trying to make. It does not say all women are more easily deceived than men, for a start, it does not say anything about the humble status of women giving them special strengthening by the Holy Spirit, those verses on having a humble heat are about men & women. God places a desire to please him in the hearts of ALL believers.
I’m actually going to be a little bit rude here & say I simply can’t be bothered to go on with what you are saying as you sound robotic, & programmed, & are using a special tone of religious language which actually undercuts Scripture, replacing it with a whole story about men & women not gleaned from the text itself. It pushes women to be less than they God made them to be, to pursue oppression & weakness for the sake of men feeling strong, promising God’s special blessing for that, when Scripture doesn’t promise that at all. Humbling yourself is not the same as reducing yourself to less. It’s a horrible form of Christian gaslighting which opens the door to a thousand awful things & has ruined the lives of many a Christian girl & woman who have thought that taking abuse is the way to glory.
And congratulations for throwing the topic of abortion in at the last minute. If you can’t win by actual reasoning then this is the go-to deflection.
This 50 year old Christian woman has seen your script too many times. quoting Scripture does not prove your case, unless the verses in question, in context, actually prove your case.
Wouldn’t we all be children of Eve? Unless I was dis-‘eve’d. Then I would no longer be a child of Eve. I mean if Adam and Eve were the first pair then who married Cain & Abel?
Maybe there were other children who weren’t of Eve. Otherwise we’d all be horribly inbred.
Oh the confusion!
Please can we talk about something simple….like the Trinity?
Amen
Or this: Gateway Church (Robert Morris and Jimmy Evans) announced this weekend that they are taking over an existing church in Jackson Hole, Wyoming (River Crossing, they state the pastor is retiring and both elder boards agreed to the merger) which will become a Gateway Church campus this spring.
So JMacD can preach in a less-stressful environment with all the time to hunt and fish one can desire. And get paid well, of course.
(Gateway also announced a new campus in Justin, Texas — a DFW suburb better known as the home of Texas Motor Speedway. Unlikely that JMacD would want to get involved with a brand new church plant.)
Forgot to add: they will relocate the deer out there. (No real announcement of a camp, but Morris has deer on his current property, so JMacD will get a bunch of cheap land and move the deer there.)
Friend,
I need not to talk on this subject more as it just exasperates me beyond belief, & all that softly softly religious language – including the words bitter – makes me cringe. I will not show the approved gentle & quiet spirit if I continue. Anyone know what the Greek in that passage means by gentle & quiet btw?
He needs to say alot more to many more people before he’s off the hook!
SAVE THE DEER!
Church suggestion:
Steve,
Village Church of Bartlett!
Julie Roys posted this on Twitter today (2/15):
https://twitter.com/reachjulieroys/status/1096466530605428736
“.@HarvestNaples just announced it’s hiring Russell Taylor to replace @secrestjohn–the founding pastor the church threw under the bus. Taylor should fit in well at Harvest. Just posted article to his blog about not trusting what you read on internet @rus http://russelltaylor.org/ ”
So much for the leadership of HBC truly repenting like giving this pastor his church back. With this action it looks like it is going to take more for these elders to repent. Maybe the solution with how stubborn they are is for HBC to implode. It just may have either never been or is now so not of God that it can’t be corrected.
Church suggestion:
Nadine,
Is it Christ Community Church in St.Charles?
And you are twisting my words. I did not actually say that ALL women are more easily deceived than men. I acknowledged that women come in a wide variety–just as men do. I guess you didn’t read the passage that I quoted from 1 Peter 3. I left some parts out for brevity’s sake. But the Scripture clearly said that women are weaker than their husbands. Presumably, this is in a general sense.
Who said anything about taking abuse?? The same passage clearly states that a man’s prayers are more or less useless if he does not treat his wife properly. I would never “push women to be less than God made them to be, to pursue oppression and weakness for the sake of men feeling strong…” That is just rage speaking and the Scripture admonishes us to get rid of all anger and rage. It does nothing to the object of your rage but does cripple you. You are allowing your emotions to distort your thinking. I hate to say it but that is also something that has apparently infected women of this age.
I did NOT throw the topic of abortion in at the last minute in order to win the argument. Presumably, Christian woman all oppose abortion. I was using it to support my point that a Jezebel spirit infects many an unsaved woman. I understand your frustration and possibly even bitterness but hardening your heart is not the answer.
In other words, read only MY blog. Isn’t his blog on the internet? The young congregation at Harvest Naples needs to learn right now to keep a close eye on the internet for information about these New Calvinists – some of them have been acting badly. By posting this piece on his blog, he has called attention to himself: “Who is Russell Taylor?”
And you are twisting my words. I did not actually say that ALL women are more easily deceived than men. I acknowledged that women come in a wide variety–just as men do. I guess you didn’t read the passage that I quoted from 1 Peter 3. I left some parts out for brevity’s sake. But the Scripture clearly said that women are weaker than their husbands. Presumably, this is in a general sense.
Who said anything about taking abuse?? The same passage clearly states that a man’s prayers are more or less useless if he does not treat his wife properly. I would never “push women to be less than God made them to be, to pursue oppression and weakness for the sake of men feeling strong…” That is just rage speaking and the Scripture admonishes us to get rid of all anger and rage. It does nothing to the object of your rage but does cripple you. You are allowing your emotions to distort your thinking. I hate to say it but that is also something that has apparently infected women of this age.
I did NOT throw the topic of abortion in at the last minute in order to win the argument. Presumably, Christian woman all oppose abortion. I was using it to support my point that a Jezebel spirit infects many an unsaved woman. I understand your frustration and possibly even bitterness but hardening your heart is not the answer.
Yes–we are all children of Eve–but we are not all daughters of Eve, are we? Adam and Eve were genetically perfect. Cain and Able obviously married their sisters. The incest prohibitions came much later.
No help there–you’ll just have to suck it up and admit that God especially prizes a quiet and humble (meek is also used here as well as gentle) spirit in women. I don’t think God would approve of “harridans for Jesus”. The Apostle Paul was tearing his hair out over the same in the nasty Greek seaport of Corinth.
“Jezebel spirit” is not in the Bible. Jezebel was a real person who made choices. The concept of a “Jezebel spirit” is a myth passed around in the church.
Are you denying that there are evil spirits out and about in this world? This evil spirit is given the name, Jezebel as a convenient way to refer to a specific type of evil spirit. There’s also evidence that an “Ahab spirit” is infecting many an unsaved man these days. Weak and corrupt “beta males” come to mind.
Google cache of Russell Taylor’s recently deleted Twitter (@mrrusselltaylor) shows him retweeting James Macdonald, Founders Ministries, etc.
Apparently Taylor was to open a Vertical Church franchise in Crestview, Fla. this Spring before being reassigned to Naples.
I”m not denying evil spirits, but that’s all conjecture. It’s not biblical.
And if you are trying to convince us by your “meekness” that you are female, you are failing. I’m pretty sure you’re another troll guy on the payroll for one of the people in trouble right now. The ship is going down, and trolling ain’t gonna stop it.
Nowhere does it say this in the Genesis narrative.
It’s a well meaning and flowery idea that has been derived from the text.
Damsel in distress, that sort of thing.
LOL LOL LOL LOL Now, you are just being silly. Wait a minute, let me ask my husband if we have received our check from James MacDonald yet. I’m praying to the Lord Jesus that He will protect all of we Christian women from the attacks of “feminists”.
It does say that Adam was there with her when she fell and it says in the New Testament that Adam was not deceived but Eve was. During the punishment passage God also says that Eve would desire to master her husband but, instead he would master her. Granted, inferences have been made but no more than most others do in relation to Scripture.
Erin, you referred to a scripture but you expressed several points that were not found there.
Again, here, these things are not specifically stated in the scriptures. You are welcome to believe these things if you want to, but these are personal opinions, not scripture.
Earlier you expressed that women are more easily deceived, but then subsequently, you stated that many women are not easily deceived- because God is a god of variety… This is what happens when our minds try to reconcile the belief system we’ve been taught with the reality that is at odds with it: it causes us to keep adding rationalizations and exceptions, and it leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance.
Jezebel was a person we can read about in the scriptures, the “Jezebel spirit” is an invention of men who are adding to the scriptures and incorporating their own ideas as though they were a part of the scriptures. The actual Jezebel was not a ‘feminist,’ she was a woman who grasped power, position and wealth and who was willing to lie, oppress and kill to get it.
Definitions of “extreme feminism” vary from person to person, but anyone who believes that women are human beings who deserve free agency is a feminist. There are many feminists who are not pro-abortion. There are many more who are grieved by abortion but recognize that laws against abortion do not stop abortion and who would rather keep it legal and subject to rules, laws and inspections than drive it underground where more people will be hurt and more evil take place.
‘Bitterness’ is a term that should not be imputed to people if they haven’t expressed, themselves, that they are bitter. The ideas that all feminists are ‘bitter’ or that they hate men are not accurate. I recommend a very good old book, “Are Women Human,” by Dorothy Sayers, that I think you may find gives the most simple and clear treatment of the issue. Those who are bitter- often have very good reasons to be.
Keep thinking and examining the scriptures, Erin. I encourage you to discipline yourself to be a Berean and drop the points that are not specifically stated in the scriptures.
Oh?
Erin, let’s look a little closer at the verse you’re proof-texting there. 1 Timothy 2:14 “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” Paul is midrashing the creation story, as he does regularly. This particular section is often used to justify women not teaching or being in leadership due to some sort of “deceivability” that is passed to all scions of Eve. This mystifies me – males (sons of Adam), who are most preachers, should NOT want to make this passage about who gets to teach and lead and why. Paul is quite specific here – Adam WAS NOT DECEIVED. Now, think about that. It is NOT a pat on the back to Adam – sinning in cold-blooded full knowledge of what you are doing is far worse than sinning because someone deceived you. It is called REBELLION and is as the sin of witchcraft, according to Samuel.
It is not accurate that this passage is about “who gets to teach and lead, men or women” because if that IS what it is about, then it is stating (and saying that PAUL says) that cold-blooded, rebellious males are to be preferred over deceived but trainable females. No, if you read this passage, from its beginning at 1 Timothy 2:11 to its end in 1 Timothy 2:15b, this is about women LEARNING. That is specified at the beginning – “Let the woman learn” – that is the imperative. 1 Timothy is specific to recovering a church dying from cultic teaching – Paul even names, shames and drives out two male teachers at the end of chapter 1. He strongly notes that there were female false teachers “teaching foolish things from house to house”. So, it makes sense that this female false teacher was in error – but Paul doesn’t name, shame and drive out this woman (the passage is singular – speaking to one or a very small group). Instead he requires her to LEARN.
Then he gives a great promise to this woman. He says “Know what? Even Eve was deceived (Adam wasn’t, like the guys I punted) BUT she learned and received the promise. To her (not Adam) was given the promise, the seed of the woman, the childbearing of the Christ, because when God asked her what happened, she answered honestly.” So to this woman Paul carefully DOES NOT name, so that she can save face and still stay part of the community, Paul says – Learn, learn well, do not teach that women can take authority violently (usurp), and listen, even Eve was deceived but was, in the end, given the greatest reward for faithfulness in the Old Testament – a seed.
I know – since I was exactly where you were three years ago in my beliefs on men and women – that this probably won’t help anything. Egalitarian theology though, far from making me into a Jezebel or some other terrible accusation, saved my faith. Since you seem to be very interested in 1 Timothy and in the Creation story as it applies to men and women, may I recommend Bruce Fleming’s Women and Men: In Light of Eden? It is a quick read.
For some of us, as BeakerJ noted, this is not an academic discussion but one in which we (myself, for example, as an infertile woman, former missionary, grew up in Christian patriarchy, quiverful) have been horribly, horribly hurt and sometimes cling to God as the woman with the issue of blood dared her life to just touch Jesus. The rhetoric you’re using has been, for some of us, used to deny us salvation (the CEV translates 1 Timothy 2:15 as “wives will be saved by having babies” – so I’m screwed), used to deny us use of the gifts God gave us, used to keep us in horrifying marriages, used to tell us to worship the men we married instead of God, to seek a pastor’s advice instead of Jesus’ voice.
Please, Erin, be kind to those who have been terribly, terribly devastated by the teaching that you’re throwing around so cavalierly and understand that no, they haven’t come to their conclusions lightly, and they haven’t twisted scripture to their liking. If it would make you feel better, understand that mutualist theology is much older than complementarian theology (which was only codified in the 1970s as a reaction to culture) – Dr Katherine Bushnell, anti-prostitution crusader in the US and India, wrote a huge tome on the theology of mutuality . . in 1917. Here’s the link but fair warning – it is old and a very dense read. https://godswordtowomen.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/gods_word_to_women1.pdf
Again, I say that it is a general observation. I did NOT say that ALL women are more easily deceived than men. Period.
That ESV 2016 translation of that verse has been soundly discredited by most conservative biblical scholars. And even that translation never says “master”. You are just making stuff up or parroting stuff you’ve heard without studying a lick of it for yourself.
You are addressing people who understand and seek to eradicate abuse in Christian settings. Earlier in our lives, some of us strove for precisely the ideals you have laid out here at considerable length. Some of us are se xual abuse survivors as a result of all that godly submission.
Now you may point out that sexu al abuse is sinful and not at all what you had in mind. But all of this talk—of Jezebel spirits and Eve falling into Satan’s clutches and hardened hearts and bitterness—is code we know well, code that leads quite predictably to abuse.
I don’t quite believe you are presenting yourself honestly. If you are, super glad this all works for you. Either way, please stop proselytizing.
Oh my, have you been listening to Douglas Wilson, by any chance? He’s the only one I’ve ever heard use that word. Egads, if so, get your brain out of that toxic dump.
Okay, I’m starting to think Poe. Is someone pulling our leg?
Erin-you are trolling. This post is about James MacDonald and is not a platform for your peculiar beliefs. Start you own blog for humble women…or is no one listening to you.
You are on permanent moderation.
WRONG. It says that in spite of the fact that her husband will oppress her, she will continue to desire him.
This is not something God gave them an order to fulfill. This is God explaining the sad results of a fallen world.
Then what point were you making with this general observation?
Thanks Dee . .
How very “Crying Game”…
Erin,
“No one else can make that determination for you. But, if you cannot tell that God has changed your heart and soul with a new spiritual birth from above, perhaps He hasn’t.”
+++++++++++++
i meant if you, erin, can’t tell that a true conversion has taken place by the changes in someone’s life, no matter how subtle, does that mean the conversion hasn’t taken place in that person?
you come across as the arbiter of conversion, the holy spirit, and many other subjects. what is valid and what is not, who is valid and who is not. you seem to have all the answers sorted out about everything and everyone.
Erin,
Erin
What are your thoughts on James Macdonald planning to weaponize child sexual abuse by planting child porn on a CT Executives electronic device as CT was moving away from allowing James the ability to cast his view on the CT platform?
I view it has cause for domestic terrorisn investigation and cause for confiscation of all James electronic devices. I also view it as forever disqualifing James from the pulpit and outright evil.
In your world, Should women submit to a Spiritual Terrorists that plans reputation attacks and character sabotage by way of weaponized child porn?
James Macdonald IS a pathetically weak vessel for Christ and many women have shown great strength in standing against this WOLF OF WOLVES.
The Elders and Leaders that remain , waited until they were caught red handed supporting a possible pedophile pastor before they acted.
Harvest is a Haven for Men of Villany and Spiritual weakness.
This seems an odd blog post to rail on the scripture you’ve choosen.
Maybe you should read a bit on wolves, money changers, and sins of a sexual nature.
ROFL!
Less ROFLing, you beat me to it; the phrase “daughters of Eve” predates Narnia, but is not biblical. In fact the Genesis account says she was called “Eve” (which derives from the word for “mother”) because she was the mother of “all living”, not just of women.
Back to the topic at hand. MacDonald has been scrubbed from the Harvest website. His 2 sons Luke and Landon are still in leadership. The church is over $40,000,000 in debt. At the prayer meeting on Thursday in Elgin one member posed a serious question of “why he should trust the Elders when he was lied to”. He was promptly escorted off the property.
I can’t tell for certain, of course, but knowing what we all do about interweb fora, my guess is that it’s
slightlymore likely than not that “Erin” is male. The main reason I say this is the unnecessarily florid ecclesiastical language, which reads as though it were taken from a phrasebook and suggests somebody trying to be something they’re not.Was that preceded by a repentance meeting, with an open display of contrition by the elder board? If not, no use praying until that happens.
And there we have it. I went to bed last night wondering about the gender of the poster, as well as the motivation behind their inability to answer the questions asked because all my spidey senses were tingling.
But what would I know? I’m just a harridan for Jesus, part of the Jezebellion, rejecting the kind of nonsense that comes out with there being an ‘Ahab’ spirit infecting ‘beta males’.
Prayer meetings don’t usually come with bouncers. What a sad situation.
Nick Bulbeck,
“which reads as though it were taken from a phrasebook and suggests somebody trying to be something they’re not.”
+++++++++++++++++
its putin!
But ‘Erin’ sure gives us some insight into why guys like MacDonald and Driscoll continue to attract followers.
As I said up thread, not all the congregation at HBC & others like Mars Hill or SGC are merely poor little kittens who’ve lost their mittens.
And the majority just sits there. Except as a wake up call to pew sitters that you have to thinking critically I feel only contempt.
MacDonald will abscond with millions and pop up somewhere else…like Arizona say. There will be no justice here. Like any good ponzi scheme the lowest on the pole will lose. But if they’re clowns like ‘erin’, I’ll not have sympathy.
Right. From the recording I heard, the questioner could have been more diplomatic and nuanced, but nonetheless it was obvious that the elders had no intention of answering hard questions. The elder in charge immediately closed down the supposed Q & A and went to ‘prayer’. After a whole lot of supportive propaganda for James and his bible-revering ‘church’.
I don’t imagine any of the Harvest campuses are going to offer anything more rah, rah, ‘Isn’t this a great church’ talk and other empty Gawd-talk. I would suggest that people refuse to be seduced by the ‘worship’ music and line up – so deep that they cannot throw them all out – and demand the mike so that their important questions be answered.
Matthew 18 in instructs us:
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”
James and the elders have refused to answer to those who have gone to them quietly – for years and years. And bullied them out and into silence. It it time these men are held publicly accountable. Wouldn’t it be amazing to see the people respectfully come forward and ask that the ‘elders’ be allowed to answer to those who actually make up and fund this so-called church, rather than be compelled to sit through another entertaining brainwashing session?
I’m not talking disorder or anarchy – just taking a quiet, purposeful stand for what is right. Imagine an orderly line, hundreds of people long, waiting to have their voices heard.
A fundagelical in drag?
Now that’s a hoot.
Oh, but you can’t control something like that! When was the last time you were in an authoritarian church and the pastor asked “Does anyone have a testimony they would like to share?” It doesn’t happen.
“Take your turn, no one person taking over. Then each speaker gets a chance to say something special from God, and you all learn from each other. If you choose to speak, you’re also responsible for how and when you speak. When we worship the right way, God doesn’t stir us up into confusion; He brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches — no exceptions.” (1 Cor 14:26-33)
Build the Wall!
And if he can get folks in AZ to fork over their hard earned greenbacks to support his ‘ministry’ (lifestyle), they deserve each other.
Do NOT accuse an elder without 2 or 3 witnesses! (1st Tim 5:19) First off, I DON’T worship teacher and pastor James MacDonald but I am eternally grateful TO GOD for His faithfulness in using pastor james as a vessel to sanctify me in Christ Jesus.
Before i was saved I went to one of “Mancow’s freak shows” with friends. It was demonic and we left early sick to our stomach from the things we saw. I hope and pray Steve was saved as a result of God using pastor james teaching The Gospel. I can judge Steve based on what i heard and knew of his past sin or I can trust God that prayers were answered and he is now Christian BUT either way… who am I to judge! The Bible is clear- God is The Judge! Yes, we are to judge other believers in certain circumstances and there’s a biblical way to do that. (Matt 18:15-17) Did you do that???
I believe Pastor James would repent IF you gave him the chance if he did all you’re claiming. Even pastor james taught the Biblical way to approach a fallen brother or sister in Christ…in love! NOT by firing him without having a voice! Piecing all the media articles together things don’t add up here! Ask yourself… even if he had righteous anger and was venting to a brother in Christ, why did that brother record him and prematurely put their private conversation on the air??? What true Christian friend does that?! I highly doubt these claims are 100% true based on pastor James character over the years! AND, if Steve DID get saved i doubt he’d do this to a brother in Christ! It seems like Satan is causing all kinds of persecution and division because He knows his time is short and thousands have been saved because of The Gospel being preached there! Satan is the father of lies and the ONLY power he has IS A LIE!
AND Even if pastor james did get angry and sin in that anger…he’s HUMAN!!! We all sin and fall short of the glory of God!
Everyone involved is going to have to answer to God for the ways they’ve handled things here! With the measure you forgive will be the measure you’re forgiven! Lord Jesus please speak Your truth to this situation and to this world that needs You! Deliver us and come quickly Lord as we know by Your Word that persecution will come especially in the last days. Forgive us Lord. We are dead in our sins without You Jesus!
If you’re in the Crystal Lake area, I can recommend Crystal Lake Evangelical Free church. The preaching is spot on. My pastor is not a yeller. He is compassionate yet firm in teaching true doctrine and theology. The music may not be as jubilant as HBC but it definitely isn’t a performance.
They also have live streaming if you’re not up to visiting just yet. I totally get that.
https://www.efccl.org/live/
Amen!
Beakerj,
Excellent comments, Beakerj!
Trying to “bundle” all women as being easily deceived just because Eve was, we can recognize the absurdity of such if we apply the same “bundling” to all men being intentionally disobedient because Adam was.
Equally absurd is implying that husbands have authority since NOWHERE in scripture is such a command given to them. Wives don’t submit any differently than husbands do….Eph. 5:21…submit to one another.
Meanwhile, at Harvest Bible Chapel:
“There is much talk of resigning by many, let me be the first to lead in that, effective immediately … a very divided board, noting that some elders ‘refuse to come under the authority of the Elder Board’ and are ‘assisting in the bludgeoning of the Bride of Christ.'” (Ron Duitsman, member of the HBC Executive Committee and Chairman of the larger 34-member elder board)
http://julieroys.com/chairman-harvests-elder-board-resigns-executive-committee-resign-soon/
It really does beg the question then:
How do they get away with it?
Muff Potter,
church culture makes one impressionable?
brainwashes people into turning off their common sense? into thinking their intuition of of the devil?
causes them to unlearn critical thinking skills?
a ridiculous state of affairs.
Muff Potter,
I suspect it’s a massive dose of confirmation bias for their (authoritarian loving men) previous leanings, plus a systematic under-education of women.
I certainly didn’t grow up with that kind of dynamic & rigid boundaries about who women should be, & so it has always been difficult & confusing to work out my own femininity within the church when I have all the qualities that are seemingly only okay for women if they are in a muted, limited, soft-focus style: intellect, creativity, humour, personality, gift of the gab, sense of justice…
When you have the full bore, full colour version of these things, from the bone, it’s tough to feel you fit. What do you do when you are born a terrier or a GSD, & not a Golden Retriever (glorious as they are)?
Yes. The elders I’ve seen elected in 2 Calvie churches were, to a man, elected on the basis of their wives’ learning and good sense. One wife was even told that by the pastor.
Besides the use of “selective literalism” and our willingness to accept their teachings, the primary reason imo is our lack of in-depth study to test those words/teachings in their original context and cultural norms.
John,
Any of The Orchard campuses (Arlington Heights, Barrington, Northfield, Itasca, Chicago, Marengo) and VCB (Village Church of Barrington)
I’m right there with you, exharvestmember. That passage has come to my mind many times.
The funny (excruciating) thing is, during the same situation in my exchurch, a sermon was given in the midst of it that followed the story only up to verse 14! So the message preached to the increasingly (and rightly) suspicious of the leadership and disgruntled congregation was, “You have only to be silent.”
Church suggestion:
Karen, your comment shows a lack of understanding of the role of a pastor and how it relates to his morals. In fact, it is consistent with Scripture, Timothy along with comments by Paul, to fire such a pastor. He has been confronted before and has chosen to double down on his behavior. This has been going on for years. MacDonald was fired. However, if he repents he would be allowed to attend to church but he must NEVER be in a pulpit again.
Sadly, it is highly likely (and I have heard some things that make it almost certain.) he will return. Instead of submitting to the elders in the church, he will get money from another source and start preaching again.If he does this, he is thumbing his nose at the NT which clearly outlines that even James MacDonald must answer to human authority.
I feel sorry for you and many others. You thought you had chosen a church led by a godly man. It is hard to accept that your assessment was in error. I lay some of this blame at the feet of MacDonald who did not teach his people well. I implore to study your Scripture. Your comment shows a simplistic approach, playing Bible bingo with verses. Please find a good church.
Whoever intends to bring MacDonald back are out of their spiritual minds. The man disqualified himself from ministry. Forgive him if he repents? Certainly! Restore him to ministry? NO!
Unfortunately, how many returns to glory by fallen ministers have we seen in the past few years? Driscoll, Noble, etc. It’s impossible to keep them off the stage once they’ve experienced the applause … particularly, if someone is gullible enough to bankroll their unrepentant comebacks.
I wouldn’t be surprised if “Karen” were just “Erin” after he found a new IP address.
As far as one can tell from the comment “Karen” left here, he is simply a beta wolf doing his thing.
Bill Hybels admitted this mistake in his cult of personality before he fell:
“We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their Bible between services, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.” (Bill Hybels, 2007)
https://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2007/october-online-only/willow-creek-repents.html
When folks discipline themselves to study the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as teacher, their eyes are opened to the aberrations of belief and practice about them. That’s why personality cult leaders are reluctant to challenge their followers to do that, lest they begin to critically think and discern that things are amiss.
I grieve for what has happened at Willow Creek and Harvest – so many have become confused and disillusioned – but, in the end, it can be a healthy thing spiritually IF folks ensnared by the mess truly look to Christ for direction for the rest of their Christian journey.
From what I understand, 34 elders at HBC will be resigning as a testimony to their reluctance to hold MacDonald accountable for his assorted/documented sins. They bear witness to themselves. It’s so sad to know that you and other believers are experiencing this.
__
“The only solution is for people to stay away from churches led by people with no accountability to anyone outside their own church—especially if they are powerful, famous, and almost worshiped by their congregants…” -Roger Olson, Patheos, “Why the Mega-Church Model Isn’t Working.”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2018/08/why-the-mega-church-model-isnt-working/
;~)
– –
The problem with this theory is once people start actually doing that, reflecting on what the Lord has said, they’ll start reading the stuff about the priesthood of all believers, about there being one head, Jesus (not the one who calls himself “church leader”), about leaders being servants and making themselves the last, they’ll find out that the tithe was set up for the Tribe of Levites (because they’d been given no allocation of land in Israel), not for the New Testament era, they’ll start diving into Paul’s letters and come to realize what a travesty the “obey the leader” mantra is and how self-styled leaders like Hybels, MacDonald, Furtick, Noble, Mohler, Mahaney, Piper, Driscoll, Dever, Chandler, etc. have far more in common with the superapostles whom Paul excoriated than the humble servant leaders Jesus demanded. And then, once they’re well-versed in these things, they’ll kick the dust off their feet and leave those abusers far behind.
There’s the problem with that theory. If people actually did what the Lord demands and read what He actually said, those leaders would be left with no one to speak to but each other and the crickets they’d hear chirping.
Oh, but personal Bible study and prayer requires discipline! It’s much easier to attend easy-church and let some man tell you what to believe and how to act. Church is no different from any other compartment of American life “Give it to me quick, so I can move on to the next thing.” In Christianity Lite, the Holy Spirit as teacher is forfeited for the teachings and traditions of mere men. Soooo … the masses migrate to mega and mega-wannabe to sit back, relax, enjoy the band, sip on espresso and experience come-as-you-are-stay-as-you-are religion … and they love it so!
I can at least grant why people might have concerns about Mancow being the voice in charge. I find it concerning that he is holding on to these tapes, dribbling out whatever bits and pieces he chooses. This does not strike me as safe or trustworthy. What is to keep him from erasing anything he chooses? This whole thing stinks, from top to bottom, and we have no way of knowing who is working for whom in all of this mess.
Mancow could be MacDonald’s chosen spokesperson for all we know. Anyone ever heard of controlled opposition or limited hangouts? I’m not making that charge, I’m just saying people need to understand how deceivers work. We are talking about a man who has deceived people for decades, built a fortune by manipulating and controlling people and information. Does anyone really think he would go down without a fight? Or that he hasn’t been making plans since all of this first began to bubble up?
Christians can be incredibly naive. We cannot simply, trustingly take everyone at their word, and believe that they have no hidden agendas. Anytime someone is controlling or limiting public access to information I become very wary.
Jim,
Truly grievous.
A well-done, truthspeaking message from a former Harvest member:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4lpYgAjG0Q&feature=share
This is the kind of evidence that needs to come forth, and it is out there in bucketloads. It is not simply James, but all of these so-called leaders who are self-serving, abusive and not about God from the outset. Yeah, that includes many big names and their progeny, who are now trying to CYA. Anyone who worked there for long, if they had any kind of exposure to James and his gang of thieves, could not help but know what was going on. All of their talk is rubbish.
I would encourage any honest people, who saw the truth and bolted, to come out with what they know, and share the intimidation tactics that may have been used to silence them.
Another good post from a former Women’s Ministry leader at Harvest:
https://www.livingwithpower.org/why-i-left-bible-harvest-chapel/
This makes me sad too… personally I’m weary of all of the hesitation, but perhaps there are good motives behind the slow unfolding of info. Someone took the huge risk of recording those “100 hours” of James MacDonald et. al. It is suggested that those tapes apparently contain a lot of extremely negative information (to put it mildly), and would expose more people than James to public censure.
These negative facts should be shared, so that ordinary Christians can make informed decisions regarding who they choose to respect and do ministry with. Truth and light should shine on all of this mess, and that is impossible while we are only being given a few specifics piecemeal. Perhaps that will change soon. I sincerely hope so.
Luke and Landon MacDonald both out. Hope they start with a clean slate – none of the leadership can be viewed as deserving of trust.
http://julieroys.com/james-macdonalds-sons-resign-shakeup-harvest-continues/