First!

Second?

Is Turk a Neo-Cal?

Frank Turks comments are strange..
Exhibitionism? Is that not what he was with his “inflammatory” blog?

A majority of the post on WW do not use their real name, so how is most of WW Exhibitionism? I for one, use my name, so that I would not be accused of “hiding behind” an alias. Also, I figure using my name will help to keep me from saying something I will regret later…

I completely agree with WW focus on the victims, which IT DOES. There is WAY to much covering up/protecting the perps, at the expense of the victims. If the Church functioned correctly, and really cared about the victims, WW would not exist..

Now, as I realize that I was personally getting groomed by a perp when I was in 7th grade by a “Christian” school teacher that was convicted of TWO felonies involving under 14 year olds, 25 years AFTER he was fired for “undisclosed reasons” at my school, I am even more convinced of the importance of WW. I have also learned that he taught at ANOTHER christian school AFTER being fired from mine.

If it takes “exhibitionist” blogs, as Frank Turk claims, to prevent little boys and girls from being molested by perps that are protected by the church, count me in!! I am mad as hell about what happened at my school, and later, and will not be “silent”
(I will provide court documents to prove my situation, so I am not gossiping!! )

Ken F wrote:

@ Mark Hollingsworth:
Bill Kinnon wrote

Sorry, only meant to reply to Bill.

dee wrote:

I wonder if something happened to cause this radical pulling out of all social media?

I think Ken F. is right when he says, “He won’t be able to stay away. He’ll be back soon, perhaps in a different format.”

Turk is every bit the “Captain Drama” he onced accused Michael Spencer of being. I doubt anything other than a diminished fan base and actual embarrassment has caused Turk’s withdrawal (as temporarily as it will perhaps be).

dee wrote:

radical pulling out of all social media

Frank Turk still has posts here:

http://centuri0n.blogspot.com/p/its-not-years-its-mileage.html

Maybe, not so “radical”.

“I have been accused of a lot of things. Most of the time, it has been by people who did not read what I wrote.”
I’ll admit I didn’t have the stomach to read pyro more that a few times so most of his quotes came from others. Reviewing his “last” post I noted the words “I repent” but did not sense contrition so I assume he has a different meaning for repent. It appears he is leaving on the same nasty note that he sang all these years.

this just sounds like a drama queen move.

I don’t understand this kind of apology. It appears to be passive/aggressive. As some of you know, I am an Orthodox Christian. In my church, we are taught that confession and repentance of sins is a process in which we evaluate ourselves – our own sinful actions/behaviors. It is a a time when we assess ourselves and the things we have done or failed to do. What we are advised not to do in this grave responsibility of repentance is to point the finger at others, to criticize others and what we perceive they have done wrong and how they have sinned. In this final blog entry of Mr. Turk’s, it seems as if he gives with one hand (repents of wrong doing), and takes it back with the other (finds fault with others by pointing to their sinful actions/behaviors. I do not recognize this as genuine repentance. It reminds me of a child, who when faced with how they mistreated one of their siblings, retorts: “Yeah, I know I hurt my sister, but she made me do it!”

dee wrote:

I wonder if something happened to cause this radical pulling out of all social media?

The man is obviously fried. You could sense it in his writing of late. He needs a break to rest and reflect.

@ siteseer:
*JMHO

It’s funny, when I read posts here, I hear them in reasonable voices. I read people brainstorming to solve problems and seeking to understand things. I read people sharing their own experiences so that others may benefit and learn from them.

I’m always kind of amazed when someone reads fury or pernicious glee (2 accusations that come up from time to time) in the posts or comments. I just don’t sense that at all.

I’ve known people who will never speak the truth unless they get so backed into a corner and infuriated that they finally melt down and lose control. I wonder if this sort of person thinks that anyone who speaks truth, no matter how calmly, must have reached that point?

dee wrote:

I wonder if something happened to cause this radical pulling out of all social media?

Or something he’s expecting to happen.

@ mot:
He seems to be from the McArthur wing of Calvinism. Phil Johnson, who started Pyro, works for McArthur.

Don’t know him. Never heard of him before the Chantry arrest. Won’t miss him. Probably won’t notice his return.

Bill Kinnon wrote:

My post is here: http://kinnon.tv/2007/09/scornucopia.html

I am a fan of Michael’s writings. He is much missed at Imonk, where Chaplain Mike keeps the blog going to honor Michael’s memory.

The idea that those silly Pyros could ‘insult’ someone of the quality of Michael Spencer amazes me. It’s like those Ethiopian boat men attacking a US warship …. little men, little people, small minds using ‘scorn’ against one of the most insightful writers that we in Western Christianity have produced in the United States in recent decades. That the Pyros worshiped at MacArthur’s feet reveals much. Silly boyz.

Nancy2 wrote:

Lea wrote:

this just sounds like a drama queen move.

Is he going to pout while his countless adoring fans cry and beg him to come back?

I bet he made up phony names and posted comments from these make-believe ‘adoring fans’ to shore up his nonsense. You see a lot of that on blogs these days.

@ mot:
@ Lydia:

Turk is a teacher at The Bible Church of Little Rock:

http://www.bclr.org/sermons/?preacher=107

The Bible Church of Little Rock is a Member of the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals aka “FIRE”, as is TeamPyro blogmaster/John MacArthur underling Phil Johnson.

This is kind of weird but whenever I see or hear the word “scorn”, I always think of burnt popcorn for some reason. (Probably because it sounds like “scorch” + “corn”). Don’t put the popcorn in the microwave for too long or it’ll scorn.

It sounds to me like Frank got in trouble.

My friends in geekland call a dramatic exit like this “flouncing”. People never seem to stay gone long after flouncing, though.

This afternoon my quiet, introspective, peaceable, mature daughter came into the living room and asked that I announce myself if I open her bedroom door in the middle of the night. She began shaking and crying. I was horrified. You see, three years ago ahe was molested by the adult son of close family friends while we were staying at their house. When I opened her door very quietly at 1AM to check that her light was off, it jolted her right back to the nights this trusted young man I’d known since he was born – this homeschooled, church volunteer – snuck in to where she was sleeping and molested her.

I was horrified today as such an innocent act on my part caused the pain and fear to take over. All the anger I have felt to this man, who lied and manipulated, to his parents who minimized and rejected, to the silent church members who “didn’t want to take sides, or worse, the ones who did and pressured us not to report, all of that flooded over me again today.

My daughter’s experience was mild in comparison to some of the horror stories I’ve hears and read, but this is the reality three years later for a survivor of child sexual abuse. With the exception of a few friends, we were ignored and further traumatized by our church because his parents are very popular leaders and lay pastors.

Today I wished we’d pushed for him to receive jail time. Why? Because we are three years out and my girl is still crying and shaking when someone innocently opens her bedroom door in the middle of the night.

So, here’s what I have to say to Frank Turk and the other voices of “reason and respectability in the church”, shut up!! You are in no way representative of Christ. You are Pharisees who not only watch as abusers cause little ones to stumble, but you stick your feet out to trip them further. I am disgusted with a of you who dare to stand up for an abuser and protect him. You have no idea what it’s like for survivors and their families. We do not wear a mantle of victimhood; however, something was destroyed in our family the nights that “godly” young man dragged my girl into his filth. Frank Turk, I dare you to look me in the eye or the parent of any survivor of child sexual abuse, how about the parents of the children hurt by Chantry, look us in the eye and try spouting your garbage. Tom Chantry deserves everything he gets for touching one child one time. Those children did nothing to deserve what they are now carrying. Their families did nothing to deserve this. You are disgusting. And if you’re reading this and want to talk to me, Dee has my permission to give you my name and email. I do not believe you will give up your ability to speak to an audience. You’re too full of yourself.

@ one of the little people:
Not little to God. May He heal and restore your family. Our prayers are with you. God bless and comfort you.

And, “…leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.'” Rom. 12:18-20, Deut. 32:35.

@ one of the little people:
This has me heartbroken. I know the two people who assaulted me have left me with nightmares and a fear of being alone outside. I was an adult, they were not people I trusted, and I went after them afterward. To be a child and be in a position of helplessness when you are molested by someone you thought you trusted…

It just make me so angry. I will be praying for your daughter.

ishy wrote:

This has me heartbroken. I know the two people who assaulted me have left me with nightmares and a fear of being alone outside. I was an adult, they were not people I trusted, and I went after them afterward. To be a child and be in a position of helplessness when you are molested by someone you thought you trusted…

It just make me so angry. I will be praying for your daughter.

Thank you Ishy. I’m so sorry that happened to you.

About nightmares, they are not as common as they use to be, in fact, they are seldom. What I got from the few times I had seen a psychologist he was amazed I was not suffering any real mental health issues. My nightmares stemmed from a fire I was in as a kid and the being in the hospital for so long. I told this story before so I won’t really go into it but one does not get over some things. Now in the faith, it was expected that one will get over it before one even goes through it, whatever it is. If one does not get over it one is a coward, liar, manipulator, hates God and so on. That is why I came to these blogs because it was clear the church did not want to hear it, I mean you should have it all nailed down in the backyard, get over it, move on, go in for the big win etc. That was a constant theme, except the many of the folks that peddled this stuff to me never got over anything. They would remember a small slight for years, literally loathed others in the same faith community because they disagreed over some trifle of doctrine, polity, ecclesiology etc. I mean families would leave, break up, not talk to each other etc. I know my earthly family went through some horrid things but never did we cast each other out, ever. I lived up to that one aspect for over 30 years and I paid a big price for it, not for the helping but in faith communities. That is another post.

One of the blogs I went to for some answers was pyro and well it was not helpful. Mr. Turk is wrong how these blogs do not help. They help real people with real issues try to find real solutions. I mean I am going back to a real world faith community and anyone who knows me from what I post here knows that is a big move for me.

@ one of the little people:
I am so very sorry. Guys like Turk don’t want to know what it is like for victims/survivors. They have as much opportunity to reach out to them as any of us. They simply don’t want to understand. You can tell by the inane things they say to try and shut down any discussion and use shame and censoring tactics by misapplying scripture. They don’t even understand the process. And they think they are legal experts. Victims can have character witnesses, too.

And there are people like that in church leadership all over the place. Church can make people cruel because they are so quick to defend it.

Darlene wrote:

Oh my, I remember how cruelly Michael Spencer (God rest his soul) was treated by Phil Johnson and the Pyro boys. What a blessing Michael Spencer was to me and no doubt, to many Christians. Mr. Turk, you are wrong in stating that bloggers are “kidding yourself about your level of influence.” There are some bloggers who have made a constructive impact upon the lives of others. The Internet Monk is one of them.

Yeah, I was there on the front lines as that hot mess was going down. Turk & Co.’s shameless attacks on IMonk played no small role in my stepping away from the Reformed scene for good. Perhaps that ought to be one of the “negative consequences” Turk thinks he should repent of? 😉

Anger is a drug and angry self-righteous guys like Turk, JD Hall, Phil Johnson, and others, can’t go without their drug. I predict a 2017 come-back.

Necrophilia. Seriously? Necrophilia. You and Nate Sparks. Wow. Just wow.

I’ll be the first to admit, I don’t know what to make of Frank Turk. In one instance, it sounds as if he’s been shamed by his own church group into being a more submissive drone. In the next, it sounds like he’s pulling another “holier than thou other bloggers stance” (with a dose of false humility). His way of attacking people and bloggers (while bashing people with authority) reminds me of Matthew J. Slick of CARM.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Lea wrote:
this just sounds like a drama queen move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRhovNlNck4

Ha! That’s a great clip.

Nancy2 wrote:

Is he going to pout while his countless adoring fans cry and beg him to come back?

I have seen similar Facebook type posts that are obviously some combination of sorry not sorry and just fishing for everyone to tell them how wonderful they are.

Don’t Turk’s necrophilia comments fall squarely under *his* definition of slander, much less the legal ones?

But I’m sure it only counts if other people are “slandering”.

I hope he stays gone.

@ ishy:
That is what i thought… Very weird..

Karen wrote:

in typical religious pride mode, overemphasized his influence within the church

There’s a bad outbreak of that in New Calvinist ranks. It gets worse when you stick a microphone or keyboard in front of them.

Max wrote:

Karen wrote:

in typical religious pride mode, overemphasized his influence within the church

There’s a bad outbreak of that in New Calvinist ranks. It gets worse when you stick a microphone or keyboard in front of them.

Whatever would God to without Pastor/Elder/Theologian Grima Wormtongue to whisper in His ear and tell Him what to do?

@ Sam:
He might have been advised to distance himself. The bodies are piling up in that movement. But I have another take.

First, I don’t think he can stay away. He might reinvent his online presence. Who knows? He’s a guy who needs a platform.

Secondly, I visited pyro for the first time in many years to read his stream of consciousness post that was all over the place. I think the blog was dead anyway.

I noticed that posts have dropped about 3/4 from its hey day. And most are Spurgeon posts. Could be Phil Johnson is leaving. But these were grown men past middle age playing biblical super heros complete with snappy graphics, dress up and a zapping mentality toward anyone who disagreed. Their commenting rules were ridiculous. It was most likely a place for adoring fans commenters on the non Spurgeon posts. They worship Spurgeon. So the fan base was most likely gone.

Other than Pyro, I am not familiar with Turks other blogs or Facebook. He was always trolling for followers in the early days. He has always tried to drum up a big internet presence since the day he started online. I speculate it did not work out for him and he is furious so he plays the martyr.

Thirdly, it is a waste of time to get sucked into his drama. (Pyro loved to talk about the blog divas –those monstrous regiment of women, years ago. I found it amusing that grown men playing super heros blogged about discernment divas)

Frank does us all a favor. He is obvious. His verbal abuse lets us all know up front who he is and it does not include reason. He is not slick and deceptive like a Matt Chandler who knows how to brain game while being the benevolent overlord of an Acts 29/9 Marx church. Chandler has minion elders to carry out the “caring” they insist is their covenant. He is not flowery verbosity like Piper.

His shtick just never took beyond a small following.

Janey wrote:

Anger is a drug and angry self-righteous guys like Turk, JD Hall, Phil Johnson, and others, can’t go without their drug. I predict a 2017 come-back.

Yep, these guys are addicted to cussing out others in Jesus’ name … which, last time I looked, is not a fruit of the Spirit. I guess “Be ye angry but sin not” is not in their version of the Bible. There is a vast difference in a fleshly anger of ego defending religious territory vs. a righteous anger expressing concern for the well-being of others. TWW and other watchblogs would fall in the latter category. It’s no surprise that religious arrogance in the pulpit eventually clashes with a humble pew, whether it’s in church or the blogosphere.

Max wrote:

Janey wrote:

Anger is a drug and angry self-righteous guys like Turk, JD Hall, Phil Johnson, and others, can’t go without their drug. I predict a 2017 come-back.

Yep, these guys are addicted to cussing out others in Jesus’ name … which, last time I looked, is not a fruit of the Spirit. I guess “Be ye angry but sin not” is not in their version of the Bible. There is a vast difference in a fleshly anger of ego defending religious territory vs. a righteous anger expressing concern for the well-being of others. TWW and other watchblogs would fall in the latter category. It’s no surprise that religious arrogance in the pulpit eventually clashes with a humble pew, whether it’s in church or the blogosphere.

These guys do more to turn people off to God. They are very poor representatives of Jesus IMO.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

One of the unique things about TWW is its prime directive focused on people, not ideology or doctrine.

Yes! That is what I like about this blog as well.

I think it’s more than a focus on people, it’s a focus on actions (which affect people) and how systems are used to support bad actions and enable them, which hurts people in the process. That’s what I love about this. Contrary to what some people seem to think, it’s not because we love ‘gossip’ that we watch when scandal after scandal happens. For me, I watch with dismay and opening eyes to things that have probably been there all along that are getting rooted out and exposed.

ishy wrote:

I’m sure that happens with pyro, but I’d wager a lot of the people who don’t comment on their blogs are not fans.

I wonder how many comments they delete at pyro?

Jeri Massi wrote:

I predicted a couple days ago that he would retire his blog. Astrology had nothing to do with my prediction. My exact words: “Get to it fast because once he realizes that he is condemning himself, Turk will not apologize. He will take it down.”
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=17675

Jeri!!! Great to see you back. Thanks for your latest posts.

Everyone else: Jeri’s book Schizophrenic Christianity should be on your reading list for the new year. She has written others too, but that’s a start.

I’ve been sitting here trying to figure out who Turk reminds me of. It just now hit me … Chris Matthews, MSNBC commentator. On his “Hardball” show, Matthews is always angry about something or somebody. Displays of anger have been his ticket to fame – same with Turk. Without it, neither would have much of a platform.

Lydia wrote:

I think Turk is over estimating his influence.

He needs the following verse on his refrigerator as he turns over a new leaf this year: “Don’t cherish exaggerated ideas of yourself or your importance, but try to have a sane estimate of your capabilities” (Romans 12:3 Phillips).

dee wrote:

Jerome wrote:

The Bible Church of Little Rock is a Member of the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals aka “FIRE”, as is TeamPyro blogmaster/John MacArthur underling Phil Johnson.

I did not realize this. Thank you.

Yeah, I’d never heard of this bunch before, either. I may have to look them up. Sounds like a bunch of Calvinists who don’t want to be Presbyterians or too connected to other churches.

Jerome wrote:

Turk is a teacher at The Bible Church of Little Rock:

Wait, that guy lives in little Rock?

Lea wrote:

He’s not listed under ‘leadership’ so I don’t know what his function is at the church…

“Minister Without Portfolio”?
(Which in Euro-political-speak usually means some sort of spook.)

NJ wrote:

Just a thought (a wicked thought) ……. Turk has spoken of his concern that poor, persecuted Tom Chantry will not be employable after the abuse accusations.

Another Pastor’s Pet Pedo situation?

“All these pervs said one to another:
‘Perv unto perv o’er the world is Brother!'”

@ Lea:

The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!

Never heard of him. I have seen older, better blogs out there – even though they get less attention. That’s part of their charm. Anyone can be drawn like a moth to a flame to a sensationalist cult of personality – but to take the less beaten path to various sources of wisdom is the better route to true perspective.

Lea wrote:

For me, I watch with dismay and opening eyes to things that have probably been there all along that are getting rooted out and exposed.

Same here! Reading here on TWW has been such an education for me, if nothing else teaching me not to idolize anyone and to watch for signs of that in myself. Of course, “if nothing else” isn’t the case at all, needless to say.

Reading above, both the OP and as well as quick skim of the comments, I am reminded of how much Turk and his blogging compatriots (comrades?) like to drop names across the internets…names that everyone inside and outside-looking-in will recognize as leaders of the Neo Cal/YRR movement.

In turn, this thought led to me remembering, and they verifying through a Google search, the song “Your Mind is on Vacation” by Mose Allison, and sung by Elvis Costello:

You’re quoting figures
And dropping names
You’re tellin’ stories
About the dames
You’re over-laughin’
When things ain’t funny
You’re tryin’ to sound
Like you’re the big money, honey

ishy wrote:

My friends in geekland call a dramatic exit like this “flouncing”. People never seem to stay gone long after flouncing, though.

I have not heard ‘flouncing’ for ages but people used to say that a lot. It is so descriptive. I am putting that into my A list vocabulary. Thanks for mentioning it.

NJ wrote:

dee wrote:

Jerome wrote:

The Bible Church of Little Rock is a Member of the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals aka “FIRE”, as is TeamPyro blogmaster/John MacArthur underling Phil Johnson.

I did not realize this. Thank you.

Yeah, I’d never heard of this bunch before, either. I may have to look them up. Sounds like a bunch of Calvinists who don’t want to be Presbyterians or too connected to other churches.

Evidently they got into the church network game. Of course the acronym is FIRE. Remember the Strange Fire conferences? The McArthur clan are big cessationists.

drstevej wrote:

Bud was replaced by Steve Lawson who took it into a McArthur/Reformed bent. After that I lost touch but I am not surprised by their bent today.

Lawson-I have heard of. Oh my. Serious Calvinist.

ION: Climbing

Lesley and I are just back from our first session of the new year; and it went rather well. I sent the pink 6c on route 13 with something to spare (6c is rather generous, I think, but it’s not trivial) and Lesley has now done very nearly all the moves on the green 6b+ slab problem.

IHTIH

Lydia wrote:

I am so very sorry. Guys like Turk don’t want to know what it is like for victims/survivors. They have as much opportunity to reach out to them as any of us. They simply don’t want to understand. You can tell by the inane things they say to try and shut down any discussion and use shame and censoring tactics by misapplying scripture. They don’t even understand the process. And they think they are legal experts. Victims can have character witnesses, too.

And there are people like that in church leadership all over the place. Church can make people cruel because they are so quick to defend it.

You may be right that they don’t want to hear from victims/survivors, which is why it’s crucial for the families to speak up and not be silenced through the spiritual baseball bats of shame, misuse of the word of God, politeness, the Law, fear, friendship, or respect. In tge Catholic Church it took many voices speaking out until they could no longer be ignored. Samara Levy, a wonderful British woman who works with Iraqi and Syrian refugees speaks to the enormity of the challenge of providing help to so many people when she says, “One lorry may be a drop in the ocean, but I believe the ocean is made up of many drops.” One blog post, one comment, one meeting, one conversation may be a drop in the ocean, but together we can have an impact.

In a post titled “Frank Haz a Sad,” he laments his blog may have substituted for the caring control of church elder overlords.

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!

Seriously?!! People actually fill this stuff out?

I guess so? They aren’t doctors so I don’t know why they would need information on this!

http://www.bclr.org/wp-content/uploads/Counseling-Forms-Combined.pdf

GSD wrote:

Turk may just be jealous that after all of his hard work and brilliance and witty banter, a couple of… women… get far more attention and accolades than he and his buddies do.

I think you’re on to something here. It’s not just jealousy though. God forbid a woman, let alone two of them, would have anything to offer the church (church being the fellas). Dee & Deb, couldn’t you two just write a nice children’s Sunday school curriculum or a women’s bible study?

Lea wrote:

I guess so? They aren’t doctors so I don’t know why they would need information on this!
http://www.bclr.org/wp-content/uploads/Counseling-Forms-Combined.pdf

Because clearly an imbalance of hormones is a sin issue.

While an imbalance in a male personality is the recipe for a successful ministry.

Nancy2 wrote:

Turk has spoken of his concern that poor, persecuted Tom Chantry will not be employable after the abuse accusations.

Wow. As sex crimes attorney/author/children’s advocate Andrew Vachss would say of enablers like Turk, “[He] isn’t just sick, but sickening.”

NeoCalvinism suffers from a lack of ‘real’ men. Cowards one and all.

one of the little people wrote:

Velour wrote:
I don’t think it was his first ‘rodeo’ and it won’t be his last ‘rodeo’. That’s why prison would have been important. To punish him, for him to be required to be registered as a sex offender, and to protect other people from him.
We did require that he register as a sex abuser as the other punishments were a slap on the wrist and the reasons were two: to do all we could to protect anyone in the future he might target and to send a message to my daughter that she is that important; however, we never pushed for jail time. I regret that now. I regret not pushing the church to put boundaries on him. I regret not making more noise before I left our church. I learned a lot though and when his brother was accused a year later of molesting a five year old in the children’s church where he was working alone, I was able to give the mother of the little girl some advice and encouragement through a third party. The first thing I told her was not to go to the church, but to head right for the police department.

What a terrible journey you’ve all had. I’m sorry. I am glad that you were able to share important information with a mother of another child abuse victim and point her in the right direction.

Interestingly enough, I found Pyromaniacs…well, boring tedious and a bit irrelevant. So long Frank, I hope you find better ways to spend your time!

ishy wrote:

And I wonder what the balance of male to female churchwide discipline is.

I keep really, really wanting to see stats on this! With detail, reason for ‘discipline’, outcome, etc…broken down by age, sex, etc.

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!

Seriously?!! People actually fill this stuff out?

I guess so? They aren’t doctors so I don’t know why they would need information on this!

http://www.bclr.org/wp-content/uploads/Counseling-Forms-Combined.pdf

Resolution of Conflicts
—
On rare occasions a conflict may develop between a counselor and a counselee. In order to make sure that any such conflicts will be resolved in a biblically faithful manner, we require all of our counselees to agree that any dispute that arises with a counselor or with this church as a result of counseling will be settled by mediation and, if necessary, legally binding arbitration in accordance with the Rules of Procedure of the Institute for Christian Conciliation; judgment upon an arbitration award may be entered in any court having jurisdiction. (We will be happy to provide you with booklets that explain the Christian conciliation process and describe its benefits and procedures.)

Lea wrote:

the form amusingly asks you to tell them how much coffee you drink? What?

Irish coffee?
Lea wrote:

The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!

For some people, that would depend on how much Irish is in the coffee.

okrapod wrote:

have not heard ‘flouncing’ for ages but people used to say that a lot. It is so descriptive. I am putting that into my A list vocabulary. Thanks for mentioning it.

I have heard “flouncing” used in reference to certain types of women/girls. How funny that the term was used in reference to Turk!

Lea wrote:

Alcohol is a different question.
I was off work the last week and had several coffee + hot cocoa + baileys mornings. So good.

I don’t always have a drink, but when I do, it’s after dinner. Except for one time: VBS at my church last year was a hectic week, along with a full work schedule during the day, and a turdnado of crap going on in the background on top of all that, so when I woke up after sleeping in on Saturday morning, I totally went half and half (milk and Bailey’s) in my latte, and it was The. Best. Evar. 😛

@ one of the little people:
one of the little people: I am in tears, reading this. Prayers for you and your daughter.

refugee wrote:

I am in tears, reading this. Prayers for you and your daughter.

Thank you.

Lea wrote:

Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
If the Church functioned correctly, and really cared about the victims, WW would not exist..
This.
His definition of exhibitionism is as dumb as his definition of slander and evidence. Apparently if you weren’t raped on the front lawn in front of a dozen witnesses, it didn’t happen.

Actually, blogs like Team Pyro (and Doug Wilson’s one-man show) strike me as the most egregious examples of exhibitionism I’ve seen on the web.

@ Lydia:

Good points. Thanks for the info.

@ dee:

I’m sorry you two had to put up with that. Honestly, when I hear people acting that way I wonder how on earth they can call themselves “Christian”. Jesus would never have talked that way to anybody. Also, isn’t accusing somebody without proof “slander”. In that case, he’s just as guilty as the bloggers he accuses…

Nancy2 wrote:

I have heard “flouncing” used in reference to certain types of women/girls. How funny that the term was used in reference to Turk!

That flouncing terminology was very popular at a political blog I used to visit years and years ago.

Any time any member left that political blog in a huff, whether male or female, they were said by the blog owner or other members to “be flouncing.”

Or “they flounced.” (Any variation of “flounce” was used.)

Daisy wrote:

The Bible records several instances of Jesus Christ showing emotion. He wept, he felt compassion and pity for hurting people, etc.
Why do some Christians (who are sexist / complementarian) begrudge those very same traits when WOMEN show them? It’s a double standard.

A lot of that is cultural. In some other cultures, men show a lot more emotion in certain situations, such as for a death. In Western culture, men are not supposed to, or they are not “tough” enough.

A lot of complementarian values come from Western culture, and not the Bible. The whole “man working with wife at home with the kids” is not biblical; it’s from the idealization of 50’s culture. Agrarian societies generally have both parents at home on the farm, or the whole family working in the family trade. Both parents would be dealing with the children and caring for the household.

SureWhyNot? wrote:

Many Christians simply go to church, sit through a 1.5 hour sermon.

Not many churches have hour and a half sermons. In the South, if they went past noon, there’d be a revolt of epic proportions. In Baptist churches, which generally have the longer sermons, they tend to be 30-35 minutes at most, so you can get out and have fried chicken by 12:30.

Turk will be back. Flouncers always are. But I doubt he will be much changed.

ishy wrote:

SureWhyNot? wrote:
Many Christians simply go to church, sit through a 1.5 hour sermon.
Not many churches have hour and a half sermons. In the South, if they went past noon, there’d be a revolt of epic proportions. In Baptist churches, which generally have the longer sermons, they tend to be 30-35 minutes at most, so you can get out and have fried chicken by 12:30.
Turk will be back. Flouncers always are. But I doubt he will be much changed.

Well, to be fair, the first half hour is the praise, worship, and announcements. But then the sermon always goes overtime because these Neo-Calvinists can’t condense three verses of Exodus into a mere hour. Nooooo. I have seriously read Game of Thrones on my Kindle and I’ll be done with the whole series before our pastor gets to Leviticus.

SureWhyNot? wrote:

Well, to be fair, the first half hour is the praise, worship, and announcements. But then the sermon always goes overtime because these Neo-Calvinists can’t condense three verses of Exodus into a mere hour. Nooooo. I have seriously read Game of Thrones on my Kindle and I’ll be done with the whole series before our pastor gets to Leviticus.

Hahaha! Well, just so long as it’s not Harry Potter.

@ one of the little people:

I wouldn’t wish what you and your daughter have been through on anyone. I’m so sorry your lives have been affected in this way. You write with the power and conviction of a fire breathing dragon. May you never be silenced again.

Amy Smith wrote:

Guys like Turk are much too arrogant to just up and leave like this. It makes me wonder what may be revealed in the future that he doesn’t want to be publicly around for when another shoe drops.

My thoughts exactly.

Unless he’s just throwing a tantrum for effect.

Right, that’s long enough. I’m back, and you should be grateful.

You’re all rubbish.

Up Yours,
Roger Bombast

Roger Bombast wrote:

Right, that’s long enough. I’m back, and you should be grateful.

You’re all rubbish.

Up Yours,
Roger Bombast

I think I shall call you Roger Bampot .

@ Roger Bombast:

😀

Ken F wrote:

Max wrote:

Which brings me to a major concern I have as we enter the new year. What happened to Jesus?!

Who?

Too many Neo-Cals following the Apostle Paul IMO instead of Jesus.

ishy wrote:

He deleted some of his own worst comments on Twitter, too. I think Nate Sparks still has screenshots of them. Nothing is ever really gone on the internet.

Did anyone storify that exchange?

Lea wrote:

His definition of exhibitionism is as dumb as his definition of slander and evidence. Apparently if you weren’t raped on the front lawn in front of a dozen witnesses, it didn’t happen.

Turk’s big argument was that no one has a right to speak of victims since Chantry hasn’t been convicted in a court of law. He said “if there is a victim, there is a criminal.”

I’m thinking the converse of this reveals something: as long as there is no victim (as long as victims remain unknown and inaccessible), there is no criminal.

siteseer wrote:

I’m thinking the converse of this reveals something: as long as there is no victim (as long as victims remain unknown and inaccessible), there is no criminal.

It’s been my experience in the church, as long as there are tears (the abuser’s), there is no criminal. “He said he was sorry and it won’t happen again.”

@ Lea:

“The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!”
+++++++++++++

good grief. did they ask if you see ghosts when on your period? hear voices?

Lea wrote:

The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!

and

elastigirl wrote:

good grief. did they ask if you see ghosts when on your period? hear voices?

These guys really are stuck in the medieval centuries. Calvin’s not their only homeboy I would wager, Aquinas probably makes them oooh and ahhhh too.

Nancy2 wrote:

ishy wrote:
I’m sure that happens with pyro, but I’d wager a lot of the people who don’t comment on their blogs are not fans.
I wonder how many comments they delete at pyro?

I had several deleted by Dan Philips because I dared post excerpts of from”The Incarnation of the Word” by St. Athanasius.

Darlene wrote:

Nancy2 wrote:
ishy wrote:
I’m sure that happens with pyro, but I’d wager a lot of the people who don’t comment on their blogs are not fans.
I wonder how many comments they delete at pyro?
I had several deleted by Dan Philips because I dared post excerpts of from”The Incarnation of the Word” by St. Athanasius.

Why you rebel, Darlene.

I’m sad and more than a little disheartened that the motivation for and the purpose of this blog has been so badly misrepresented by Mr Turk. I agree with Dee that Mr Turk simply must not have spent much, if any, time reading the posts or the heart-breaking comments such as the one today from “one of the little people”. I wish he had taken the time.

It’s not enough that Mr Turk is willfully misunderstanding the highly valid purpose of this forum, he also claims those overseeing it will face harsh judgment from the Lord. Even on his way out, Mr Turk is still trying to guilt, shame and silence more victims (the subtext being if the Deebs who print the stories face harsh judgment, how much worse will it be for those telling their stories in the first place?). This breaks my heart. I have to wonder if he has never known an abuse victim?

I am so sorry Deb and Dee, that you are being attacked this way.

Lea wrote:

@ ishy:
Clearly.
One of the things that invalidates confidentiality is “when a person persistently refuses to renounce a particular sin and it becomes necessary to seek the assistance of others in the church to encourage repentance and reconciliation”.
No room for error or interpretation here!

So basically there is no confidentiality in this kind of “biblical” counseling. Because “particular sin” can be whatever the counselor deems it to be to justify telling the elders/leaders/pastors. “Particular sin”, as we have seen with many churches that employ the Membership Covenant/Contract, can be something as simple as disagreeing with the pastor.

NJ wrote:

Lea wrote:
Lydia wrote:
@ Lea:
The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!
Seriously?!! People actually fill this stuff out?
I guess so? They aren’t doctors so I don’t know why they would need information on this!
http://www.bclr.org/wp-content/uploads/Counseling-Forms-Combined.pdf
Resolution of Conflicts
—
On rare occasions a conflict may develop between a counselor and a counselee. In order to make sure that any such conflicts will be resolved in a biblically faithful manner, we require all of our counselees to agree that any dispute that arises with a counselor or with this church as a result of counseling will be settled by mediation and, if necessary, legally binding arbitration in accordance with the Rules of Procedure of the Institute for Christian Conciliation; judgment upon an arbitration award may be entered in any court having jurisdiction. (We will be happy to provide you with booklets that explain the Christian conciliation process and describe its benefits and procedures.)

The rules favor the “Biblical” Counselor/church/elders/pastors and work against the protection and right to privacy of the the counselee. The scales are unbalanced from the start and are a potential breeding ground for spiritual abuse toward the counselee. Anyone reading the comments here at this blog and considering “Biblical” counseling: i.e. – Nouthetic Counseling – flee for your life.

The short of the whole matter is that churches are harboring criminals, and the hyper-Calvinists seem to be harboring a lot of criminals and very mentally unstable people. They are not equipped to “deal” with them. I don’t believe any church is exempt from abuse, but I think some perpetuate it. Turk is one of the people who perpetuates this system, and the internet, and churches, are better off without him.

The fact that many of these elders and pastors are not only hiding criminals and not reporting criminal activity to the police, but putting these people back into places where they can abuse people, means that their whole system of elder/pastor “control” is a sham. They have little biblical foundation to control churches they way they do, and do so ignoring large swaths of the New Testament, but they are also inept at managing their own system. If that system was really of God, it would work better. It’s a system devised by selfish, greedy men, with the purpose of self-glorification, power-mongering, and greed. The only purpose nouthetic counseling serves is to reinforce this abusive system.

one of the little people wrote:

Unfortunately, Jimmy Saville and the whole mess going on regarding historic child sex abuse in Britain doesn’t get any play over here

I heard about it, but I didn’t know who Jimmy Saville was, so the impact was probably not what it would have been for a Brit.

siteseer wrote:

Turk’s big argument was that no one has a right to speak of victims since Chantry hasn’t been convicted in a court of law.

“It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

“It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

Actually, it’s not as black and white as that.

It all depends on the meaning of “it all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is” is.

roebuck wrote:

In other words, I really don’t think he was accusing anyone of ‘necrophilia’, as such – he was just getting back by exaggeration – making the necrophilia charge, unfounded and without evidence, as if it somehow nullified the charges against Chantry. Very immature and absurd, but SOP with certain types of ideologue.

But he claimed that nobody should ever make accusations about people without a conviction, then he did it.

And, in Calvinista world, you’re not supposed to go to the authorities at all, and let the church handle it.

It’s all contradictory.

ishy wrote:

But he claimed that nobody should ever make accusations about people without a conviction, then he did it.

Again, I think that was his point, to show by exaggeration how wrong it is to make ‘unfounded’ charges. As if there was any analogy at all to the legitimate charges against Chantry. Like I said, rather immature, but these people seem to be stuck in Jr. High School debate mode.

I tried reading Turk’s Pyromaniacs blog years ago, but it was too incendiary for me.

roebuck wrote:

In other words, I really don’t think he was accusing anyone of ‘necrophilia’, as such – he was just getting back by exaggeration – making the necrophilia charge, unfounded and without evidence, as if it somehow nullified the charges against Chantry.

I think that was his intent, but it is stupid and illogical because we weren’t talking about unfounded accusations from one loon on the internet, we were talking about multiple indictments and jail time. Apples and oranges.

@ ishy:
Once again, I was so glad I wasn’t sipping coffee at the moment I read this.

@ dee:
🙂

@ Mara:

“you are kidding yourself about your level of influence.”–Frank Turk

“I have no inflated view of my blogging influence.”–Mara
+++++++++++

considering how something positive & good, let alone healing and freeing, can have generational impact (from one person to the next to the next to the next in real time), your influence is greater than you’d ever dream.

i think Frank Turk is stuck on a junior high hamster wheel: “well, if i can’t be big man on campus then…then….you smell!”

@ Tim:

For some reason, the title of the blog has always made me think of elementary school aged boys playing with matches without their parents’ knowledge or supervision.

elastigirl wrote:

“well, if i can’t be big man on campus then…then….you smell!”

Exactly. He thinks he’s being Joe Cool when really he’s throwing a toddler tantrum.

Thus spake Frank Turk (quoted in the OP):

I apologize to everyone and anyone who ever used my blogging as a substitute for having a local church, and loving real people, and being under the authority of elders and men of good faith who are in it for your good and God’s glory. I was wrong to put myself in that place, and I was wrong to let you think it was ever a good idea.

This seems to be a covert-agressive jab at TWW (and any other blogs) that have something like E-Church. Perhaps he’s oh-so-humbly taking responsibility for tempting Dee and Deb to host an online sermon, instead urging believers to attend a brick+mortar building with real people and (most importantly) real elders who can push us under their authority (lovingly, of course).

If so, he’s assuming that (a) the people who comment and worship here aren’t real people, and don’t genuinely love and care for each other; and (b) intelligent adults need the authority of professional Christians; and (c) all such clergy are always “in it for your good and God’s glory”. Anything outside those assumptions just won’t fit his narrative, it seems.

Oh, and if he is holding himself responsible for the rebellious sin of TWW’s E-church, he’s also assuming that (d) he has that kind of influence over the Deebs. And as many here have pointed out already, that’s a stretch, to say the least.

A legend in his own mind…

one of the little people wrote:

So, here’s what I have to say to Frank Turk and the other voices of “reason and respectability in the church”, shut up!! You are in no way representative of Christ. You are Pharisees who not only watch as abusers cause little ones to stumble, but you stick your feet out to trip them further. I am disgusted with a of you who dare to stand up for an abuser and protect him. You have no idea what it’s like for survivors and their families.

I don’t think ‘bumping’ is a standard and encouraged practice. Nor is it something I engage in most of the time.
But sometimes I think it is acceptable. Especially if one is afraid that an important message might be missed by later readers.

So I’m ‘bumping’ this quote from one-of-the-little-people because I do not want it lost. It needs to be heard. Again and again.
This is the reason for blogs like TWW.

The reason for Turk’s blog is to protect his religious buddies.
Whether he means to or not, he is helping his religious buddies to stick their feet out to trip the little ones.

They have no fear of the millstone and the deep blue sea nor of the God who says such things would be better for them than falling into His hands.

One-of-the-little-ones, you already know. You and your daughter are honored and protected here. Your voices are respected and not marginalized.
Peace be on your household. A peace that transcends the evil done to you.

Mara wrote:

They have no fear of the millstone and the deep blue sea nor of the God who says such things would be better for them than falling into His hands.

Fools.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Thus spake Frank Turk (quoted in the OP):
…being under the authority of elders and men of good faith who are in it for your good and God’s glory.

Well… they do exist, but… good luck with that.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

I may have mentioned this before, but I once (accidentally) set fire to a sink in the Lensfield Road chemistry labs in Cambridge. And we’re talking 3-4 foot high flames here.

I have distinct memories of playing with a neighborhood friend, or possibly two, behind his house. His parents were smokers – mine were not – and we had gotten hold of one of the lighters lying around his house and went into his backyard. In autumn, pine straw was never hard to find in Raleigh, so we made a “big” pile, in retrospect probably only an inch or two, and lit it. I remember being a frightened at how fast it burned. Fortunately, the flames burned out before the fire could reach the other pine straw lying around. (This was before you moved next door, @GBTC)

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:
Mrs. Smith: “I’m just on my cycle.”
Counselor: “Clearly, this is a sin issue for which you need to repent.”
Mrs. Smith: “I’m not repenting of biology”
Counselor: Well, I will take it to the church then!

Hilariously perfect!

siteseer wrote:

This blog has brought me a step closer, rather than farther.

That’s a good point. By pointing out what to watch out for, they may make it easier for people to have the confidence to go back to church.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

I never set fire to anything but I did really goof up one time. I put a piece of modified wire mesh on a beaker stand in oder to diffuse a gentle heat to a beaker of stuff, slid the bunsen burner under it, and we had to evacuate the lab. The mesh had some powdered sulfur on it and like a doofus I had not checked for contaminants. Hideous and highly irritating smoke came pouring out and I got a lung full. They had to air out the place. I coughed for weeks, literally.

So, pray tell, how did you set fire to a sink? I love these kinds of stories.

Lea wrote:

one of the little people wrote:
Unfortunately, Jimmy Saville and the whole mess going on regarding historic child sex abuse in Britain doesn’t get any play over here
I heard about it, but I didn’t know who Jimmy Saville was, so the impact was probably not what it would have been for a Brit.

After Nick mentioned Jimmy Saville, I did a search. Wow! Just Wow!! I read several articles on the guy – a very public figure who was honored by the British people because he gave lots of money to charitable causes. And all those who reported their abuse were ignored. I’d never heard of the guy. If you’re interested read about it. It’s shocking that this guy was in the limelight for decades and was able to get away with his lewd, criminal acts.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/27/how-bbc-star-jimmy-savile-got-away-with-allegedely-abusing-500-children-and-sex-with-dead-bodies/?utm_term=.60abdb6ebd83#comments

Clay Crouch wrote:

Now, if only Doug Wilson would follow Mr. Turk’s lead, 2017 would be a stellar year for Christian blogging.

I completely agree.

Darlene wrote:

After Nick mentioned Jimmy Saville, I did a search. Wow! Just Wow!! I read several articles on the guy – a very public figure who was honored by the British people because he gave lots of money to charitable causes. And all those who reported their abuse were ignored. I’d never heard of the guy. If you’re interested read about it. It’s shocking that this guy was in the limelight for decades and was able to get away with his lewd, criminal acts.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/27/how-bbc-star-jimmy-savile-got-away-with-allegedely-abusing-500-children-and-sex-with-dead-bodies/?utm_term=.60abdb6ebd83#comments

And guess where he found many of his victims? Through the charities he was supporting.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

if you say anything, all the charities will suffer.

That’s awful. I hadn’t heard that part (I did hear about the documentary/second documentary though, which I think is a good angle for learning).

I think the Pennstate(ish) guy used a charity to find victims as well.

Clay Crouch wrote:

Now, if only Doug Wilson would follow Mr. Turk’s lead, 2017 would be a stellar year for Christian blogging.

LOL

ishy wrote:

The short of the whole matter is that churches are harboring criminals, and the hyper-Calvinists seem to be harboring a lot of criminals and very mentally unstable people….Turk is one of the people who perpetuates this system, and the internet, and churches, are better off without him….
The fact that many of these elders and pastors are not only hiding criminals and not reporting criminal activity to the police, but putting these people back into places where they can abuse people, means that their whole system of elder/pastor “control” is a sham.

One of the most insightful comments I’ve read in some time.

Is Tullian making a comeback by hosting a reality/spirituality show: Celebrity Repentance?

dee wrote:

@ SureWhyNot?:
I have to tell you that I laughed myself to sleep last night thinking about your comment.

Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all week…in the pews.

@ Roger Bombast:
I thought that was either the Duke or the Dauphin (Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn)

mot wrote:

Too many Neo-Cals following the Apostle Paul IMO instead of Jesus.

Exactly. They talk more about Paul than they do Christ. It’s as if their Bibles only included the Pauline epistles and they read Paul wrong in many cases! When I get into this discussion with New Calvinists in my area, I advise them that if they read Paul first they might read Jesus wrong … but if they read Jesus first (the Gospels), the writings of Paul come into proper perspective.

Tim wrote:

I tried reading Turk’s Pyromaniacs blog years ago, but it was too incendiary for me.

I think that was the Pyromaniacs intentions. One of the common statements made about Frank Turk was: “Frank Turk is a menace.” And it was stated with a sense of glee. The Pyro boys were like the WWE wrestlers of Evangelicalism. They were shock jocks and seemed to take delight in offending and ridiculing others. If they had compassion and kindness, I didn’t see it.

Persephone wrote:

I’m one of those who reads everything here (including the majority of comments), but only rarely comments. But after reading “Pyromaniacs” so many times, I suddenly was reminded of the Animaniacs. But they were funny.
OT, this grandiose non-apology sounds exactly like th e letters my abusive ex-husband regularly sends our kids. And the way he used to sorry-not sorry me all the time.

We are the Pyromaniacs
And we’re brainy to the max
Quoting Romans, Jude, and Acts
We write books in stacks and stacks
We’re the Pyromaniacs

Phil Johnson and Dan Phillips
And Tom Chantry and his boys
We make up snappy comebacks ’cause the Internet’s our toy
Some people call us mean
But that just gives us joy
And any Muff who gives us guff
Must be in Stan’s employ

We’re the Pyromaniacs
We’re all pals of Johnny Mac’s
Calvins underneath our slacks
A good pastor yaks and yaks
We’re the pyromaniacs

Pelagian Arminian Armenians are cursed
Emergent papist lib-e-ral progressives are the worst
Seeker-friendly Coptic Eastern Orthodox: disperse!
The ‘costalists and Methodists are nothing but perverse

We’re the Pyromaniacs
Sign our legal church contracts
We will sue you in your tracks
If on us you turn your backs

We’re pyromany
Hardline like Khomeini
Or C. J. Mahaney

The py…ro…ma…ni…aaaaacs!

@ MidwesternEasterner:
Awesome!

@ MidwesternEasterner:

This is epically clever in the best possible way. Well played!

mot wrote:

I think they know they can not try to model the life of Jesus and Paul is the one they are more comfortable trying to model.

I don’t think they want to model after Jesus. It would mean the disintegration of their entire system which puts them at the cushy top and everyone serving them and buying their stuff.

Their practical application of the ESS theology is that they are in God the Father’s position, essentially “driving” things on earth. They see Jesus as serving the Father, and that’s not good enough for them.

mot wrote:

I think they know they can not try to model the life of Jesus and Paul is the one they are more comfortable trying to model.

Scripture does not exhort believers to Paul-likeness, but Christ-likeness. Elevating Paul and diminishing Jesus in New Calvinism does not change this truth.

ishy wrote:

mot wrote:
I think they know they can not try to model the life of Jesus and Paul is the one they are more comfortable trying to model.

I don’t think they want to model after Jesus. It would mean the disintegration of their entire system which puts them at the cushy top and everyone serving them and buying their stuff.

How about modeling Baal, Caesar Proclaimed a God, selected Borgia Popes, and Caliph of ISIS?

@ MidwesternEasterner:
DEB! DEE! USE THOSE LYRICS AS A HEADER FOR ANY POST ABOUT THE PYROMAINIACS!

OR BETTER YET, FIND SOMEONE WHO CAN RECORD IT IN THE PROPER VOICES AND USE THE AUDIO/VIDEO!

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:
@ Lea:
The form also asks if you cry during your menstrual cycle!
Seriously?!! People actually fill this stuff out?
I guess so? They aren’t doctors so I don’t know why they would need information on this!
http://www.bclr.org/wp-content/uploads/Counseling-Forms-Combined.pdf

Let me take a hypothetical excerpt from the church counseling handbook:

A woman who cries during her menstrual cycle is clearly ruled by her emotions and therefore must be taken less seriously by the counselor.

If she appears fragile, attempt to calm her with platitudes like the verse about God collecting our tears in a bottle, or Revelation’s promise that he will wipe every tear away.

If she persists, assume a more stern aspect and remind her of the gospel admonitions to take every thought captive, and to be anxious for nothing, and to rejoice regardless of circumstances. (would have said “scriptural” but “gospel” seems to be more and more the word du jour)

ishy wrote:

Not many churches have hour and a half sermons. In the South, if they went past noon, there’d be a revolt of epic proportions. In Baptist churches, which generally have the longer sermons, they tend to be 30-35 minutes at most, so you can get out and have fried chicken by 12:30.

The New Reformers see the sermon as the high point of worship. In our former church, I heard about the Puritans and their all-day church services (and the punishers who stood in the back ready to deal with any nodding heads). We had a long service in the morning and another teaching (not worship) in the evening. Sometimes there would be a shared meal in between the two, rather than going home to let the little ones nap and then have to drive to church again, sometimes a fair drive because part of the “ideal” life was to live on an acreage.

It was not outright stated but pretty well understood that missing the afternoon/evening session was not meeting the mark (As in sin = not meeting the mark) though they were reserved enough not to outright say the word “sin” in that regard.

Sunday was supposed to be a day of rest, but as a mother of young children, I found it more exhausting than a weekday. I suppose those sermonifying men might have found it restful somehow.

Part of that church culture (it was a member of Scott Brown’s NCFIC) was to teach little ones to sit through church.

In the wannabe YRR church some of my family attends now, I have noticed that church is getting out later and later, and the sermons seem to be going longer.

If “proclaiming the Word” (not *just* reading the scriptures but sermonizing about them) is the high point and most sacred part of worship, then of course sermons are going to get longer.

LT wrote:

I wish he had taken the time.

If he had taken the time… would he have enough capacity for empathy to understand and resonate with what he was reading? Or would he be disgusted by the people’s hardnecked insistence on hanging on to their bitterness instead of being properly forgiven as they are commanded to do?

I have little faith in his capacity for kindness and tenderhearted understanding.

ishy wrote:

Not many churches have hour and a half sermons. In the South, if they went past noon, there’d be a revolt of epic proportions. In Baptist churches, which generally have the longer sermons, they tend to be 30-35 minutes at most, so you can get out and have fried chicken by 12:30.

Baptists in the Former Confederate States seem to have their priorities in order.

Even with the Massachusetts Puritans, after church let out after a three-hour sermon the minister would often accompany the other men to the tavern for a few beers.

Daisy wrote:

Why do some Christians (who are sexist / complementarian) begrudge those very same traits when WOMEN show them?

Because to them those traits are FOR MEN ONLY?

Lydia wrote:

Hysteria and emotionalism. Inherited sins from Eve.

And in Victorian times, the go-to cure for “Hysteria” was the Hysterectomy.

(Just as the go-to cure for “Neuralgia” was regular injections of Morphine.)

Lea wrote:

Although, referring to the original quote, who on earth would read HIS blog and consider it a substitute for “loving real people”?

Depends, I suppose, on what one’s definition of “love” is.

(and now I have the refrain of an old rock song clanging in the back of my head. “Hurts so good…”)

@ Darlene:
The sad thing is, yes, I (and other women in our old church) sat under this kind of teaching. “Follow your husband’s lead, no matter what,” it went. God would bless your family through your faith. And if your husband was a doofus, whether merely bad with money or worse (gambling or substance abuse, perhaps), and you lost your house, it would all be fine because God never lets his little ones go hungry (really?) and it would all be to his glory.

I remember being in a panic one time, because of a decision on the part of my husband, and flinging the story of Achan in his face. Achan, who with all of his little ones was swallowed up by the earth because of something he alone did.

My husband seemed stunned. I’m not sure if it was because I wasn’t quietly and cheerfully going along with what he’d done, and not reproaching him but trusting in God to turn everything “for good” or if he was stunned by the thought of a man’s whole family going down the drain (condemned to death) because of the man’s decision.

refugee wrote:

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

You should have seen me shoving more lard on top of the flames to smother it out as I turned down the element.

Would that really work, or was that a panic move?

A lid would have been better, but it was not the worst thing she could have done because it did put out the fire. The worst thing one can do with a deep fat fryer fire is to pour water on it. The water sinks to the bottom and flashes to steam. When that happens the entire contents are forcibly ejected from the fryer and ignited, spreading everywhere into an explosive fireball. VERY dangerous.

refugee wrote:

@ Darlene:
The sad thing is, yes, I (and other women in our old church) sat under this kind of teaching. “Follow your husband’s lead, no matter what,” it went. God would bless your family through your faith. And if your husband was a doofus, whether merely bad with money or worse (gambling or substance abuse, perhaps), and you lost your house, it would all be fine because God never lets his little ones go hungry (really?) and it would all be to his glory.
I remember being in a panic one time, because of a decision on the part of my husband, and flinging the story of Achan in his face. Achan, who with all of his little ones was swallowed up by the earth because of something he alone did.
My husband seemed stunned. I’m not sure if it was because I wasn’t quietly and cheerfully going along with what he’d done, and not reproaching him but trusting in God to turn everything “for good” or if he was stunned by the thought of a man’s whole family going down the drain (condemned to death) because of the man’s decision.

Refugee, Out of curiosity, I meandered over to your former church’s website. Now…now…how could there be any marriage problems with all those bible studies on marriage and family accompanied by smiling faces on husbands and wives. 😉
https://ncfic.org/

…and that he recognized it, lamented it, and repented of it and was rebuking his groupies.