First!

Third?

“Keep in mind, though, that the most thorough and well-written policy is powerless unless it becomes part of the very DNA of the church community.” – Boz Tchividjian is executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE) and co-author of “The Child Safeguarding Policy Guide for Churches and Ministries.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2017/12/08/the-one-best-idea-for-ending-sexual-harassment/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2c6b9c93c7af#idea14

Nice summary, not disjointed at all.
Ironically, my insitution is require alll faculty and employees to take online sexual harassement training… and I am in the middle of it right now…. these churches, and individuals have done so many things wrong/incorectly…….

Transcript of the service at High Point Sunday, where Savage gets his standing ovation.

http://makechurchsafe.com/2018/01/07/transcript-of-chris-conlee-and-andy-savage-live-statement-to-highpoint/

It is amazing the swift response of Bethany House Publishers. When I was younger and Bethany House was Independent, I worked for them. I was waiting to see what would happen. I am amazed and profoundly grateful that Austin Stone did the right thing and Klove realized it’s responsibility in this situation. It seems there is a ways to go but things are happening.

I’ve been in contact with a couple of local (or at least “lots more local than Arizona”) people who are thinking about protesting at Highpoint Memphis next Sunday. This makes me happy, and not just because I don’t have to dither about flying out to cold country to protest. People have Jules’ back and are going to remind the leadership of Highpoint about #JusticeforJules.

I have long had a great distaste for the “celebrity pastor” craze in the evangelical church. However, I was horrified to hear that High Point church gave a standing ovation after hearing that their pastor sexually abused a teen while he was a youth pastor. This makes me feel sick to my stomach. Just common decency and respect for Jules as a human being should prevent that kind of thing. Not to mention that Jesus consistently went out of his way to show compassion to those whom the religious elite of his day wanted to ignore and push aside. And so today I choose to applaud Jules! :-).

@ Mary27:
Amen

BD wrote:

Transcript of the service at High Point Sunday, where Savage gets his standing ovation.

Phhhhhffffffftt!
If randy Andy get a standing ovation at his church, I say we give Jules a virtual reality standing O!
Even I can’t imagine the courage it took for her to stand in front of the news cameras and make her statement.
Go Jules!

”
I have one question from Steve Bradley, who did not return my phone call, “Did you call the police? If not, why not?” Note also his plausible deniability? If I were Larry Cotton, I might be a bit concerned.”

The other thing he never did was to express any care or support for Jules. What is she, chopped liver?

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

The other thing he never did was to express any care or support for Jules. What is she, chopped liver?

She a female – that’s a notch lower than chopped liver to these guys.

Mary27 wrote:

Just common decency and respect for Jules as a human being should prevent that kind of thing. Not to mention that Jesus consistently went out of his way to show compassion to those whom the religious elite of his day wanted to ignore and push aside.

Yes, amen!! I believe this is the heart of the gospel — care and concern for others.

Savage and the leadership have only presented “laws”… he broke a law, but now he’s fixed it by “obeying” other laws, namely, “confessing his sin” and “repenting” and “being humble”… check; check; and check! See, it’s all ok,now.But all the while, absolutely no regard for Jules experience of that horrid ordeal and for the aftermath that she’s had to endure. That is NOT the heart of Christ and therefore its not the gospel!

Sandra wrote:

Here’s the link
http://www.highpointmemphis.com/andy-savage

I just saved the link to the WebArchive.

Dee wrote: “I sincerely believe that Jules was in danger that dark night so many year ago and I bet that many other people will agree with me. In fact, Friday’s post is over 900 comments and we have only had to ban 5 people, all of whom implied that Jules wanted it. One of them tried to share the *gospel* with her. Can you imagine?”

Share the *gospel* ……. Really??
Has anyone shared I Tim. 3:2, Phil. 2:15, and Tit. 1:6 & 7 with Savage and Conlee. I think there’s some stuff in there about leaders being above reproach …… which, IMO, they are not!

The transcript of that segment of the church service is as disturbing as his statement.

Interesting that you mentioned that Andy decided to bet that she would go away.

For a millisecond, when I first read the original story, I wondered if he was really remorseful, when he fell to his knees & begged for forgiveness, but then I realized that was all part of the calculation and manipulation. He was betting that he could manipulate her into taking his assault to the grave. Oral sex was his rape of choice, knowing she wouldn’t get pregnant (very calculated) & I’m sure he enjoyed the idea of manipulating her into doing it. He was very calculated then and remains so today, but he profoundly underestimated Jules both times, then and now. Both times he bet that Jules would not hold him accountable and he was wrong. Jules is a hero! He was fired then and hopefully the clock is ticking for it to happen again. He’s already been fired from the publisher and KLove! If I were a betting person, I think the ice cream on the cover of the book was an intentional, sick inside joke to himself, not realizing that it was all going to thankfully blow up in his face. The fact that his Bachelor’s degree is in Marketing and Master’s is in Christian Studies is not lost on me. Marketing is all about image, branding, and manipulating people to do your bidding and the Master’s in Christian Studies gives him the appearance of credibility/means to con and fleece the sheep. Like all narcissists, he expects his charm and bravado to let him get away with anything.

What kind of church discovers a youth pastor is a pervert who preys on girls in his group — and decides to foist him off on other churches?

He should have been told, “No, you should not be in pastoral work.”

To the *defiant* Steve Bradley at StoneBridge Church:
If you had to discipline this man for misconduct, then turned around and gave this man a good recommendation, YOU are a snake.

I hope the elders and nominating committees from the other churches let The Wartburg Watch know if they were warned about Andy Savage’s proven and admitted criminal behavior before they hired him.

And, Steve, why do you protect a guy like this when so many pastors can’t find good jobs?

Was it Andy’s charm and charisma that made you ignore his little problem with sex offending?

That was no sexual “incident”, and that was flat out sexual assault which should have been prosecuted and Savage required to be registered as a sex offender.

I admire Jules for her courage and strength.

Mary27 wrote:

I have long had a great distaste for the “celebrity pastor” craze in the evangelical church. However, I was horrified to hear that High Point church gave a standing ovation after hearing that their pastor sexually abused a teen while he was a youth pastor. This makes me feel sick to my stomach. Just common decency and respect for Jules as a human being should prevent that kind of thing. Not to mention that Jesus consistently went out of his way to show compassion to those whom the religious elite of his day wanted to ignore and push aside. And so today I choose to applaud Jules! :-).

That standing ovation was just one of the sickening things that took pkace on Sunday. Worse was the way that some Highpointers were attacking Jules and defending their hero online.

Posted this also over at Cryingoutforjustice.com

I also believe the “20 years ago” is one of the deliberate tactics he uses to minimize his horrific actions. When reading the posts on the HighPoint Facebook page, many of his supporters note that “Andy was only 20 years old when this happened, etc.” Has anyone ever seen where Savage has admitted his age at the time of the assault? I haven’t. Yet he continues to harp on the “20 years” and people get confused. That is deliberate in my opinion.

The fact Savage states it happened many years ago “in Texas” places a geographical distancing tactic as well.

Savage distances himself from the severity of his actions, i,e, Clergy Abuse, by claiming he was a “college student on staff” versus the truth that he was the Youth Pastor.

So we can see three ways in which he distances himself from his actions: He distances himself by time, by geography, AND by not admitting the truth that he was her Youth Pastor.
I’m not sure what restoration can be made for someone so devious and manipulative. He should not be in any pulpit ever again.

#justiceforjules

I have no words but my body has been reeling since this all broke. THIS is the nail in the coffin and the reason why i will never, ever belong to any church again in my lfetime.

Austin Stone Church crafted a nice statement, saying all the right things. They are a successful corporation with a large budget and staff. ( https://austinstone.org/about/staff ) I would be surprised if they didn’t have a law firm on retainer. Travis Wussow, a former pastor at Austin Stone is now a top man in ERLC. Wussow was a practicing attorney in Texas.

All this to say the proof is in the pudding. If Larry Cotton failed to notify Law Enforcement about the sexual assault committed by fellow pastor Andy Strange after he was advised of it by Jules Woodson he should be fired. I have no confidence this will happen.

Sovereign Grace Ministries also conducted a third party investigation into the sexual abuse and conspiracy to cover it up. The results were predictable. C.J. Mahaney is still preaching and will once again be on the stage at the T4G conference this April.

One hand washes the other.

@ Molly245:

for that matter, #metoo

I don’t even like to clap after a song for special music.
We are worshipping God not the musician.

@ CENG1:

After all of the obvious lies that he has told and even including his part in the church merger, I am not a big fan of former victims meeting with their sexual assaulters for a big kumbaya moment. These people are typically manipulators. I always hope for a legal route even years later.

When Savage used “sexual incident”, I assumed he would insist that is what they call kissing before married. That was the lie he told everyone at the to time, right? Oh dear.

Mike wrote:

Right after I wrote my previous post I realized something. While I thought my experience was creepy it did not have a lasting effect.

Why? If it came to it I could not only physically defend myself I was probably more of threat, so I had the upper hand, so I politely said not interested. That is a big difference, who has the power in the situation – both in the moment and over the long term.

What Andy did was not only the “sexual sin” it was a gross abuse of power

I’ve been reading a book by a trauma therapist and highly qualified psychiatrist lately (Dr Bessel van der Kolk). This resonates with something he writes. When we are in a traumatic situation, our bodies are designed to fight or to flee. Either way it is something physical. He has observed, over decades of clinical practice and research, that the people who end up most traumatised, with PTSD and things like that, are the ones who were not able to respond or do anything. So your sense of being able to run or fight, to take on this guy, because you were athletic and fairly strong, would have helped you to manage the situation emotionally as well. Whereas for someone in Jules’ situation, where the victim is smaller or weaker or feels trapped somehow and can’t utiltise the fight or flight response their body is producing, the after effects will be much worse.

JYJames wrote:

and from Savage’s own blog: “Ultimately, lying is image control.” http://www.andysavage.com/blog/posts/helpi-married-a-liar

Wow. His exact thought process.

I noticed at the Christian Post several commenters trotted out the usual “she’s in it for the money” garbage. I see this morning that there are several people there now defending Jules and calling out those doubters/accusers who don’t care about victims.

Since The Christian Post only allows comments from Facebook users, and I don’t have a Facebook account, I am unable to comment in support of Jules. So I ask people here to overwhelm those doubters/accusers over there.

Oh, and disgustingly, you’ll notice the article headline says “He Repented Immediately”!

Here is the link to the article:
https://www.christianpost.com/news/memphis-megachurch-pastor-andy-savage-admits-to-sexually-assaulting-teen-in-past-says-he-repented-immediately-212974/

Sister wrote:

JYJames wrote:
and from Savage’s own blog: “Ultimately, lying is image control.” http://www.andysavage.com/blog/posts/helpi-married-a-liar
Wow. His exact thought process.

Projection?

Dan from Georgia wrote:

Oh, and disgustingly, you’ll notice the article headline says “He Repented Immediately”!

This is very much promoted doctrine in many circles to restore people immediately. They either do not understand metanoia for current Christians caught or manipulators. It blows my mind because it’s often devastating to victims (and future ones) in more ways than one. I don’t trust people who teach it. It’s not even common sense.

In an introductory Psychology college course I teach, I include a discussion on recognizing and dealing with sexual harassment and misconduct in the workplace. One of the things I say is: “Find the adult where you are working. There is a man or woman in a position of authority who will deal with these behaviors, who will not tolerate them, who will do the right thing.” Thankfully, in my own work and church life this has almost always been true.

As I watched the church service from Sunday, I thought OK, here comes the adult, the person of authority, the senior pastor. Nope, he equivocated, was pretty passive, and often vague. There was no leadership there.

Leadership, by the way, doesn’t say “my door is open,” or “I am here to help.” That’s passive. A leader would have called the victim himself, told her that a fund has been set up for her counseling, and offered to meet with her if she wanted.

Mike wrote:

What Andy did was not only the “sexual sin” it was a gross abuse of power

The crux of the matter.

One of the commenters at Cry For Justice linked to a Fox news article about this:

http://www.fox13memphis.com/top-stories/church-leader-connected-to-sexual-assault-accusation-against-andy-savage-placed-on-leave/679779540

Quote:

In her blog, Jules said she talked to Larry Cotton, who was the Associate Pastor of Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church. After their conversation, she alleges Cotton told her he would talk to fellow church leadership, along with Andy Savage, and she should “not mention anything that had happened to anyone else.”

I could be misinterpreting this, but that makes it sound like Savage may have had other victims, which wouldn’t surprise me.

Lydia wrote:

Dan from Georgia wrote:

Oh, and disgustingly, you’ll notice the article headline says “He Repented Immediately”!

This is very much promoted doctrine in many circles to restore people immediately. They either do not understand metanoia for current Christians caught or manipulators. It blows my mind because it’s often devastating to victims (and future ones) in more ways than one. I don’t trust people who teach it. It’s not even common sense.

Lydia, not sure why The Christian Post decided to put that in their title. But it does seem rather disingenuous and implies that “immediately repented” is all that was needed to make the situation right. And my opinion of The Christian Post in general hasn’t gotten any better with this link…seems like they are slow to catch on to doing the right thing as well…like they continued to reprint articles by Mark Driscoll long after he left Mars Hill and brought his circus to Arizona.

@ Amy Smith:
Wow…. good for Jules…

maybe getting covered at this level will also knock down the bashing of the Roman Catholic Church by Protestants.. I know my secular colleagues do not see much of a difference..

Dan from Georgia wrote:

Lydia, not sure why The Christian Post decided to put that in their title.

It’s Christianese for “The Spin Is In”.

Janey wrote:

@ Sister:
Good point about oral sex being Andy’s rape of choice. She couldn’t get pregnant and she was unlikely to tell her parents due to shame.

And in the words of attorney William J Clinton, “it isn’t really sex”. (And according to the actions of another attorney (Douggie ESQUIRE), as long as there’s no actual Tab A in Slot B – LOOPHOLE! LOOPHOLE!)

Juulie Downs wrote:

”
I have one question from Steve Bradley, who did not return my phone call, “Did you call the police? If not, why not?” Note also his plausible deniability? If I were Larry Cotton, I might be a bit concerned.”

The other thing he never did was to express any care or support for Jules. What is she, chopped liver?

My thought exactly. Thank you.

@ Lea:
Sorry about the italics! Must not have close a bracket.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Austin Stone Church crafted a nice statement, saying all the right things. They are a successful corporation with a large budget and staff. ( https://austinstone.org/about/staff ) I would be surprised if they didn’t have a law firm on retainer. Travis Wussow, a former pastor at Austin Stone is now a top man in ERLC. Wussow was a practicing attorney in Texas.

All this to say the proof is in the pudding. If Larry Cotton failed to notify Law Enforcement about the sexual assault committed by fellow pastor Andy Strange after he was advised of it by Jules Woodson he should be fired. I have no confidence this will happen.

Sovereign Grace Ministries also conducted a third party investigation into the sexual abuse and conspiracy to cover it up. The results were predictable. C.J. Mahaney is still preaching and will once again be on the stage at the T4G conference this April.

One hand washes the other.

Since it’s already been established that Savage’s church is part of a much bigger coalition, this cannot be overlooked. Please, bloggers, keep the spotlight on this supposed independent 3rd party investigation, or better yet, show why it can’t be allowed to proceed and demand that law enforcement conduct it. Since Jules filed a police report, and, if I understand correctly, there is no statute of limitations on clergy abuse, why can’t an actual detective perform the investigation? It should not be allowed to be performed by the church; it needs to go to the Texas State authorities. Why do we accept the smooth rhetoric and continually underestimate these foxes? (Fool me once,…etc etc)

This whole thing is just beyond frustrating.

He is just sorry that he got caught. The first thing Jules said to me was “he didn’t respond to this email.” I knew, at that moment, that I was dealing with a man who stuffed his past in a closet and hoped it would never come to light.

Nailed it.

They’re mad because they thought they got away with it ’20 years ago’ and shouldn’t have to answer for it now. Sorry folks, that’s not how it works.

I wish I could feel more optimistic about the statement of Austin Stone Church, but I don’t. Time will tell. After all, another Memphis mega-church, Bellevue Baptist, also conducted an investigation after a blog disclosed a clergy child molestation cover-up, and even though the investigation ultimately concluded that senior pastor Steve Gaines had indeed kept quiet about the molestation — in part because the molesting minister had asked forgiveness — Gaines remained as senior pastor. Not only were there no real consequences, but Gaines’ career advanced. He’s now president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Max wrote:

Only a cult of personality in a house where celebrities are worshiped would choose (5).

In my experience, this is true for most, if not all, standing O’s.

christa wrote:

…another Memphis mega-church, Bellevue Baptist, also conducted an investigation after a blog disclosed a clergy child molestation cover-up, and even though the investigation ultimately concluded that senior pastor Steve Gaines had indeed kept quiet about the molestation — in part because the molesting minister had asked forgiveness — Gaines remained as senior pastor. Not only were there no real consequences, but Gaines’ career advanced. He’s now president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

This is exactly my concern. History repeats.

Please, Jules, be the squeaky wheel with Texas Law Enforcement. Don’t allow them to do it their way.

passerby wrote:

Don’t allow them to do it their way.

“Them” being Austin Stone Church.

And I just noticed that the word “Stone” is in two of these churches’ names. It’s too easy to get them mixed up. Of course the biblical/spiritual subliminal word association isn’t lost on me. It just pisses me off more.

Janey wrote:

To the *defiant* Steve Bradley at StoneBridge Church:
If you had to discipline this man for misconduct, then turned around and gave this man a good recommendation, YOU are a snake.

Exactly.

Which is why I REALLY want to hear from the church who hired him after this!

@ dee:
Completely agree…. and getting a standing ovation when it was presented to the current church proves this is all about power….
At least some pew peons in the Roman Catholic Church are saying enough of the musical chairs with the pervert priests… I am sure many of the pervert priests had very quick repentance, and the went on to molest again….
And, it is not normal hormones that leads to purposely taking Jules to a remote place, not romantically exciting her, but do what he did… a normal guy would want the women to be attracted to him, not use power/trickery to get her to do the deed..
I am trying to see another side to this, but by Andy Savages own admission, not saying that his “romantic emotions” overtook him, and the fact that he had already been CAUGHT alone with Jules ticking her in a bedroom, proves this is no rare act….and a profound lack of good judgement… more likely much worse … like a predator..
Anyone that tries to defend Andy Savage as this being a normal young guy should be ashamed of themselves… As a parent, we expect that people in leadership at churches to have a track record of proper behavior… and preventing predator from infesting the church…

A lot of people yesterday mentioned the ‘I wasn’t engaged yet’ bit to wonder if he was seeing his current wife at the time…but I’d like to point out how it is completely irrelevant and what it’s purpose was in the statement at all!

Maybe this is just him saying he may have been abusive, but at least he didn’t cheat?? It felt very out of place.

Liz wrote:

So no, these things don’t just happen, and I seriously doubt Andy is genuinely repentant.

If he had only kissed her, I might buy it. This?? No.

He got what he wanted and then he switched over to damage control. If he said I’m so sorry, I will tell the church immediately? And resign? And report myself to the police??? Maybe. Maybe I would believe it. This is not what he did. True repentance looks different.

Gus wrote:

Why is it that evangelicals put so much emphasis on sexual sin, so that almost anything outšide marriage is considered sinful, but sexual assault by one person seems to be no worse than consensual premarital relations between consenting adults with no power difference.

This way of thinking leads to all sorts of errors. This is why I am beginning to loath things being described merely as ‘sin’. No. There is a lot more to it than that.

@ Ricco:
Three actresses that are taking on Weinstein were purposely not invited to the Globes Awards. They have been tweeting about it for 2 days but the media is not picking it up.

@ Lea:
Good point. Put it in writing. I had not thought of that immediately but it’s a great point. Obviously, Savage knew better than to email her back. But she still did not go away.

elastigirl wrote:

@ Molly245:

for that matter, #metoo

I am so sorry. Hang on to Jesus & remember that God watches over sparrows and “the least of these”

Hugs

Lea wrote:

A lot of people yesterday mentioned the ‘I wasn’t engaged yet’ bit to wonder if he was seeing his current wife at the time…but I’d like to point out how it is completely irrelevant and what it’s purpose was in the statement at all!

Maybe this is just him saying he may have been abusive, but at least he didn’t cheat?? It felt very out of place.

I think it has to do with the mindset you see in some circles, that young men cannot help themselves and so the solution is to marry them off as early as possible to avoid sin. In those same circles, wives are shamed for ever wanting to say “no” to their husband’s “physical needs.”

See? Problem solved! He gets “it” wherever, whenever, and however he wants. (See Mark Driscoll and Doug Wilson, for starters, for details.)

It seems more and more that complementarianism is a hiding place for awful things.

@ Beth Duncan:
My jaw just dropped. Horrifying, but unfortunately much too common. I hope he gets (got) his comeuppance, before the Throne if not before the magistrate. Hugs to you, Beth.

refugee wrote:

Lea wrote:

A lot of people yesterday mentioned the ‘I wasn’t engaged yet’ bit to wonder if he was seeing his current wife at the time…but I’d like to point out how it is completely irrelevant and what it’s purpose was in the statement at all!

Maybe this is just him saying he may have been abusive, but at least he didn’t cheat?? It felt very out of place.

He actually never said he didn’t cheat on his (now) wife–saying (as he did) “we weren’t ‘engaged’ yet” vs “we we weren’t ‘dating’ yet” tells us he was, in fact, sexually abusing a young girl in his charge while dating his wife.

If he really told his wife all the details before they got engaged, she is culpable in all of this. If she knew all the details, did nothing, married him anyway, and encouraged him to be in ministry even after that, she bears some blame, here, for letting it get this far.

If, when I was dating my wife–and before we got engaged–she told me that in her capacity as a church youth pastor, she had coerced a 17-year old into performing oral sex on her, there would have been no wedding, no future ministry career together, etc.

Either Andy is totally lying about his having informed her of all of the details (with his lying being a distinct possibility/probability given his lack of forthrightness in his statements), or she is an enabler.

Those things are hard to come to grips with, but are hard truths. We have seen it before. Jerry Sandusky (the notorious Penn State child rapist) was married to a woman who used to turn a blind eye and ear when her husband took young boys in their basement. At Fellowship Memphis, Heather Loritts Trotter (wife of the music minister taking illicit videos of women and children in the church bathroom, their home bathroom, etc.) stayed married to Rick Trotter even after she well-knew what he was doing (in fact, she stayed married to him until he finally got caught again at another church, and it was publicized in the news); sadly, she and Rick had a code word that, if spoken, she would not ask him what he was doing. Truly, partners in crime.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

C’mon, out with it! That bigger coalition is the SBC; I will say it, and I have been an SBCer all my life.

Not trying to be vague or shy or whatever it is you think I’m doing, Nancy2. Lazy, perhaps, in that going back to the thread featuring 900+ comments to isolate what bigger group someone discovered Savage’s church to be a part of was a feat I wasn’t up to. So, yeah, guilty. And while you are no doubt correct about the SBC affiliation, the coalition I recall went by another name…something like the Gospel Coalition? Furthermore, as my nom de plume indicates, as a “Doner”, I’m merely a passerby as it pertains to the greater who’s who, and what’s what in the chronic disgrace called Church.

Janey wrote:

I have trouble believing this was his first sexual attack.
It has so many features that make it seem that he already had a strategy in place and was just waiting for a victim.

It’s similar to this guy:

Evangelist Clayton Jennings Steps Away From Ministry After Multiple Sex Partners Come Forward
https://www.christianpost.com/news/evangelist-clayton-jennings-steps-away-from-ministry-after-multiple-sex-partners-come-forward-171842/

Jennings manipulated numerous young, naive, too trusting Christian ladies into sex.

Regarding the headline: I wouldn’t say they were “sex partners,” more like victims of his con game. When you get sex from women in the way that he did (abusing his status as Christian celeb, preying on their vulnerability and naive natures), I don’t regard it as consensual sex.

@ BD:

It’s interesting seeing that laid out in a list like that. All those points occurred to me as I read blog and news coverage on what happened, but it brings it into sharper focus to see it itemized by someone else.

You can definitely see how Savage and his church are following all those steps to avoid Savage paying consequences.

Where are the female evangelical leaders right now? #Silenceisnotspiritual sounded good-for a minute! Until it might cost them to speak up. Jules, you apparently have more guts and integrity than all these women combined. “Speak up! We’ve got your back!” Right…

The support you have gotten doesn’t erase the terrible pain you have experienced with the way this is being “handled” the second time around. Why would a woman ever come forward? There is no real protection from the leaders-male or female. THEIR SILENCE DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ME!!! Grace and peace in this ongoing trauma, Jules. You are not alone but you might have to be content with support from the “little people.”

Deborah wrote:

Where are the female evangelical leaders right now?

Being Sweet and Submissive, of course.

@ BD:
Nya Ha Ha, My Dear Wormwood.
Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of the Enemy’s altar!

AbuseCrusher wrote:

He actually never said he didn’t cheat on his (now) wife–saying (as he did) “we weren’t ‘engaged’ yet” vs “we we weren’t ‘dating’ yet” tells us he was, in fact, sexually abusing a young girl in his charge while dating his wife.

Don’t forget…
“I did now Know her in a Biblical sense.”
— Douggie Phillips ESQUIRE (aka Little LORD Fauntleroy)

I have one question for Andy’s church. Why did you give Andy a standing ovation? Why did you clap at all? Please tell me why you would condone this behavior? Clapping and standing at the same time means you are pleased at what you just experienced and heard. If he would of committed another felony, like maybe murder, would you guys of only clapped and not stood? He admitted to doing something against the law. Let’s not even talk about the sin against God that he is guilty of, by his own admission. Where in the gospel does it say that Christians need to become stupid upon being saved?

Lydia wrote:

This is very much promoted doctrine in many circles to restore people immediately. They either do not understand metanoia for current Christians caught or manipulators. It blows my mind because it’s often devastating to victims (and future ones) in more ways than one. I don’t trust people who teach it. It’s not even common sense.

Do these types of Christians have two standards in place, one for church people one for non-Christians?

If they wouldn’t trust a non-Christian alcoholic to be alone with their liquor cabinet, for example, why would they allow a Christian one? Their theology must blind them to the reality of human nature.

Ricco wrote:

The inconsistency I noticed was about Savage’s “restoration progress.” Chris Conlee said that Savage underwent a “restoration process” at the church in Texas.

That anything like Josh Duggar’s?

Gus wrote:

Why is it taht evangelicals put so much emphasis on sexual sin, so that almost anything outšide marriage is considered sinful, but sexual assault by one person seems to be no worse than consensual premarital relations between consenting adults with no power difference. Evangelicals really do have completely effed-up priorities.
Virginity is IM not so HO highly overrated, but consent definitely is not

Virginity really is not valued among most Christians.

Many Christians will pay grudging respect of virginity (or celibacy) on pod casts or blogs when asked about it, but they don’t respect it in reality. I’m still a virgin, and I see this disrespect for it all the time.

The church mocks people like me who are virgins past the age of 25/30. Adult virgins are considered odd balls or as failures, or Christians dismiss us or our existence by saying, “you have the gift of celibacy” (no, I / we don’t).

As a matter of fact most Christians, even the ones who claim to respect virginity, refuse to believe anyone over 18 or 25 is a virgin. Look at the Highpoint defense of Andy Savage: there was some remark by one of the pastors in the sermon or in the statement defending him that “every one is guilty of sexual sin like this. Come on, we’ve all had pre-marital relations, so who are you to judge poor Andy”.

As someone who’d like to be having sex but who has refrained well into her 40s, I’m sitting there thinking, “No not all of us have done that pre-marital diddling.”

I do think to many churches view sexual assault in the right way. They always want to make the victim equally responsible as the abuser.

Correction. In my last post I said,
“I do think to many churches view sexual assault in the right way. They always want to make the victim equally responsible as the abuser.”

I meant, most churches view sexual assault in the WRONG way. (That post is still as of my writing this still sitting in queue, yet to be published.)

Contrary to Gus’ point above that I was addressing, I was saying that most Christians do not respect sexual abstinence – they may claim to do so, but in practice, they do not. They assume every one is or has in the past engaged in premarital sex.

NJ wrote:

I could be misinterpreting this, but that makes it sound like Savage may have had other victims, which wouldn’t surprise me.

I too think he’s got more than one victim in his past, either pre- or post- Jules. I just hope they also go public.

ER wrote:

He is also neatly switching out the victim. He has enough sense to not directly switch himself in for the victim, so instead he substitutes his wife. He wants us to think that his wife is the biggest victim here.

Good point.

In these circles, coming to your marriage ‘impure’ is thought to harm the other partner in some fashion. Maybe that is his intent, ‘my poor wife I wasn’t completely innocent when we married, but I didn’t cheat on her because we weren’t engaged – feel sorry for her?’

Weird.

Apparently you can request that a church be removed from The Gospel Coalition directory, provided you give a reason. Highpoint is a TGC listed Church.

http://churches.thegospelcoalition.org/app/report/7739

Ricco wrote:

The inconsistency I noticed was about Savage’s “restoration progress.” Chris Conlee said that Savage underwent a “restoration process” at the church in Texas. However, Steve Bradley said that after Savage apologized to everyone, the church let him go.

On the last thread about this, someone described what that church’s idea of restoration and accountability looked like, I quoted them in a post of my own, and commented on it.

Here’s a link to that:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/01/05/i-thought-he-was-taking-me-for-ice-cream-one-womans-metoo-story-of-molestation-by-her-former-youth-pastor-andy-savage/comment-page-2/#comment-352276

Daisy wrote:

I’m not sure why you keep asking about the “type” of fear she was experiencing?

I don’t ‘keep asking’ I was merely explaining that I read it differently the first time than I think it was intended. This new article provides more clarification.

Obviously if you’ve read my comments on this article, you will realize that I am 100% on her side here and think Andy should never have been rehired in ministry.

passerby wrote:

Since Jules filed a police report, and, if I understand correctly, there is no statute of limitations on clergy abuse, why can’t an actual detective perform the investigation?

I’m confused about the legalities of all this.

I think someone on the previous thread said that he can’t be held liable under CSA type laws because there were not CSA laws on the books at the time in Texas.

Lea wrote:

They’re mad because they thought they got away with it ’20 years ago’ and shouldn’t have to answer for it now. Sorry folks, that’s not how it works.

Someone up thread (Dan from Georgia) linked to a Christian Post article about this story and there are a number of lunk heads in the comments box saying stuff like,

“But it was 20 years ago! It was dealt with 20 years ago. Let it go”

And, “Why now? Why did she wait 20 years, she waited for him to become rich and famous, she’s after his money!!”

These people who are defending this guy are deluded and willing to justify his actions and brush over it no matter what. It’s creepy.

Even in this climate of “me too” where women feel a bit more comfortable coming forward, look at the type of nasty push back they’re receiving.

People assume they’re lying, or in it for money, that they secretly ‘wanted’ the sexual assault. It’s no wonder so many victims of sexual assaults choose to remain quiet about it.

Lea wrote:

Daisy wrote:

I don’t think churches are safe places for people at all, especially not for girls and women.

I would not trust a complementarian/patriarchal church at this point. Never. Too much wrong thinking going on, that easily leads towards this sort of outcome.

Other churches will have problems, as does the rest of the world, but at least they haven’t added to it with a belief that women are less important/believable/valuable than men.

My advice would be to not trust ANY church until the pastor’s at that church get on public record calling out (by name) their the pastor friends & professional acquaintances who are doing participating in these cover-ups in the Pervert Protection Program.

I’ve had lots of pastors (from complementarian and non-complementarian churches, alike) who, when I detail to them what I have seen and why I am “Done” with the church (tho not done with Jesus), say “Well, you should come to my church–it’s different.”

My response is always the same…”I will, as long as you realize that if I find out you knowingly put a sexual predator around my family without warning us, I am going to literally knock your teeth out.”

Never had a pastor agree to that stipulation. They are all guilty to one degree or another. I remain “Done.”

To give credit to where credit is due. I received a message from Ann Voskamp on twitter when I called her out on not responding. She said she had literally only read the story 5 minutes ago but she is already posting and pulling no punches. I appreciate that.

Daisy wrote:

I wouldn’t put it past some pastors to hear the full on, gory, true and real version with all the graphic details, and still hire the guy. That is how bad I think some churches are these days.

Another problem with the Memphis churches and how they handled Savage Andy’s admission of the “incident” in Texas – they NEVER contacted Jules independently nor her parents to learn her side of the story!
Hello – have they heard of due diligence?

Song of Joy wrote:

Video of 1/7/18 service (Savage confession and Conlee message) is now disabled.

Interesting. As more and more media outlets cover this story, I wonder if their church is getting lots and lots of phone calls and other push back?

Raswhiting wrote:

Daisy wrote:

I wouldn’t put it past some pastors to hear the full on, gory, true and real version with all the graphic details, and still hire the guy. That is how bad I think some churches are these days.

Another problem with the Memphis churches and how they handled Savage Andy’s admission of the “incident” in Texas – they NEVER contacted Jules independently nor her parents to learn her side of the story!
Hello – have they heard of due diligence?

No. But that have head of “willful ignorance” and “plausible deniability.”

They should be introduced to the terms “accessory to the crime” and “so broke they can’t afford to pay attention.”

Ann V. on Twitter quoted from the NYT article:

NYT reports: “She said that a pastor of the church, The Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church, urged her to stay quiet when she told him what had happened.
Instead of telling her to inform the authorities, he told her that the church would address the episode internally.”

Regarding: “…he told her that the church would address the episode internally.”

Christianese translation:
We’re going to sweep this under the rug and not hold the abuser truly accountable.

Churches investigate sexual abuse cases the way O. J. Simpson looked for his wife’s killer on the golf course.

Daisy wrote:

Churches investigate sexual abuse cases the way O. J. Simpson looked for his wife’s killer on the golf course.

Maybe Savage’s next book could be titled “If I Did It”

Daisy wrote:

I’m confused about the legalities of all this.
I think someone on the previous thread said that he can’t be held liable under CSA type laws because there were not CSA laws on the books at the time in Texas.

I’m still confused, too. A comment was made by “Former Child Abuse Prosecutor” January 6 at 10:56pm on the Friday, January 5 post. He thought that the CSA part of the law was recent. I would link that comment, but I am a too technologically challenged for that.

Forrest wrote:

“A Memphis megachurch pastor received a standing ovation during a church service on Sunday after he admitted that he had engaged in a “sexual incident” with a high school student 20 years ago in Texas.”

Comrade Stalin and Baba Saddam also received standing ovations. A lot of standing ovations.

@ Daisy:
I haven’t, I brought it up in the previous thread and I mentioned clarification in this one. Can you drop it, then? I think I’ve explained myself.

Recall the 7th Commandment: “You shall avoid sexual incidents, lest they become regrettable” (Exodus 20:14). I nominate “sexual incident” for Misleading Euphemism of 2018 Award and, though it’s only January 9, I’m declaring it the winner. If he had said, “I sexually assaulted a teenage girl under my care and supervision,” I might have felt at least a little better about his ‘confession.’

The Dweebs (is that what the bloggers are called?) mentioned the height and weight difference between the rapist and the young woman. To that we should add the age difference–five years difference in age when people are 25 and under–especially when one is a teen and the other has passed the 20 milestone–is just enormous. So he had a title, size and weight, and “towered over” her in age. He said he apologized to everyone, but he didn’t say how his apology was received. And what did he apologize for exactly? No one (according to the published accounts) had any idea WHY he was forced to leave the church. This seems to have left people thinking that he stole a kiss, not a young, feminine soul.

Ken P. wrote:

I’m still confused, too. A comment was made by “Former Child Abuse Prosecutor” January 6 at 10:56pm on the Friday, January 5 post. He thought that the CSA part of the law was recent. I would link that comment, but I am a too technologically challenged for that.

Discouraging, IF it’s true. Best to consult an attorney in Texas. I’d be delighted to contribute to a legal fund should she take that route.

And as for the accusers saying she’s in it for the money, I’m stunned. Sorry to resort to graphic language here, but who in their right mind would want a single, ****** dollar from these people? Their $$ is filthy. It’s enough that Savage, Cook et al get removed from their positions and start flipping burgers.

Moderation edit: Watch the language. GBTC

AbuseCrusher wrote:

If he really told his wife all the details

Has Savage ever admitted “the details” – what he did? His story doesn’t line up even in the numbers (dates, ages), his official job title at the time, etc.

Like Savage says on his own website: http://www.andysavage.com/blog/posts/helpi-married-a-liar “Ultimately, lying is image control. Lying is a very selfish and reckless way to look less guilty, wrong or foolish or to look more impressive, smart or right.”

I read that this crime can still be prosecuted. Is this correct? or the statute of limitation has expired?
I hope this creep gets punished

In the 1990s, my 15-year-old sister was assaulted by a 45-year-old elder/musician in the church basement. My parents believed her but went to the pastor, who said he would talk to and warn the assailant about his behavior. At a follow-up meeting, he convinced them that they and my sister were scripturally bound to forgive the assailant for showing signs of repentance. The pastor also discouraged them from going to law enforcement because public exposure could ruin the church.

In 2002, an 11-year-old girl broke down at her private Christian school and said that a man was bothering her at church. It was the same elder/musician. This time, the school went straight to law enforcement. The subsequent investigation revealed that the elder/musician had done this from the 1980s. The pattern was repeated frequently, with the pastor convincing him to repent, urging the victims to forgive, and keeping the scandal out of the press.

The pervasive problem’s exposure led to the pastor being ousted. The elder went to prison for several years. The statute of limitation had expired for many of his victims and because it was a small, rural Pentecostal church, it managed to stay out of the local newspaper.

To this day, my parents are spirtually torn and confused about how much they’re supposed to “forgive.” I left the church after I became an adult, as did my sister. In hindsight, it’s horrifying to realize that underage victims continued to be brought to services where they could see this man up on the platform playing music (and occasionally speaking from the pulpit). I can’t fathom their pain and horror.

Today, this Pentecostal church’s membership has dwindled from 200 members to about 30. A good number left and followed the former pastor to his new church. He’s now deceased, but if this scenario happened today, my hope would be that public exposure could lead to greater understanding and intervention in protecting children from these abusive authority figures – and by extension – parents and church networks of devoted members duped into defending their church from “spiritual attacks.”

There should be an accounting for why public exposure of these events is somehow more scarier to church members than the actual abuse of children.

Gus wrote:

Why is it taht evangelicals put so much emphasis on sexual sin, so that almost anything outšide marriage is considered sinful, but sexual assault by one person seems to be no worse than consensual premarital relations between consenting adults with no power difference. Evangelicals really do have completely effed-up priorities.

Good question Gus. I have long wondered the same. If sex was that big of a buggaboo-taboo to the Almighty, he’d have done better by making it no more enjoyable and sought after than getting the wheat and barley crop in.

I have long advocated that Evangelicals rethink human sexuality in terms of a responsible pragmatism rather than a strict one-size-fitz-all dogma.

Geoff Smith wrote:

I nominate “sexual incident” for Misleading Euphemism of 2018 Award and, though it’s only January 9, I’m declaring it the winner. If he had said, “I sexually assaulted a teenage girl under my care and supervision,” I might have felt at least a little better about his ‘confession.’

2nding the nomination.

Dan from Georgia wrote:

“He Repented Immediately”!

See above comment by Geoff Smith. Calling his assault an “incident” is not a confession of what he did.

Daisy wrote:

This is one thing that makes Christianity look like a fraud or a joke to a lot of Non-Christians

Sadly, I suspect that this is why the NY Times was so willing to run the story. I’m glad this is being exposed but sad that those who should have been “exposing the wolves” failed…so the task fell to those hostile to Christ. With glee, probably.

@ brad/futuristguy:

There has been verbage used in some statements, sermons, and/or by supporters that outright states or otherwise implies that what Andy Savage did was consentual.

RAINN [Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network] has a State Laws Database that covers Sex Crime Definitions, Consent Laws, Mandatory Reporting, Statutes of Limitations, and more.

Here’s the RAINN section on CURRENT Texas laws, categories, and definitions on consent. Under CURRENT law, looks like Mr Savage would not be able to claim “she consented/went along with it” as a legal defense.

You’d have to find out what the 1998 consent laws and any other relevant statutes were, to put his case into historical context. The Texas Code references here give some starting points for doing the historical research to find out when the consent laws were adopted and amended.

https://apps.rainn.org/policy/policy-crime-definitions.cfm?state=Texas&group=9

[QUOTE]

Is consent a defense to sex crimes?

Answer

Generally, yes where consent is an element of the crime such as with sexual assault. Texas Code Ann. §22.011(b).

However, a sexual assault is considered to be without consent where the actor is a public servant, mental health services provider or clergyman. Texas Code Ann. §§22.011(b)(8) – (10).

[END QUOTE]

K.D. wrote:

This is what happens when you don’t take care of your “own business.”

Yep.

Sorry Dee you don’t qualify for the blog prophet award for 2018. It was obvious how the Highpoint congregation would respond. They worship their leaders so any minor indiscretion that they may have done only shows that they have a human side. When the leader apologises it further confirms the leader is worthy of worship.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

Maybe Savage’s next book could be titled “If I Did It”

No, more like this: “I Did It, But She Was Complicit and Consenting.”

*barf* I can’t believe I wrote that!

elastigirl wrote:

to me, unless it’s a true world hero whose selfless actions have had impact on a world scale, standing ovations don’t mean much more than peer pressure.

Or life-and-death survival — Caesar Nero’s lyre concerts, Comrade Stalin’s & Baba Saddam’s speeches…

K.D. wrote:

This is what happens when you don’t take care of your “own business.”

Right. I used to think all the crazy stuff I saw reported that was negative about women and so on was just fringe cult nonsense because it wasn’t my personal experience. (If I had seen this story a few years ago I would have assumed this was a totally fringe response). apparently not.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

As best I can recall from research on Prestonwood Baptist church, there were both child sexual abuse laws and clergy mandatory reporting laws already on the books in Texas at the time allegations of sexual abuse of male minors by youth music minister John Langworthy surfaced in June 1989, and he was immediately fired. So they would have been in place in 1998 re: Andy Savage and Pastor Larry Cotton.

However those aren’t the relevant laws. Texas does not define a 17 year old as a “child” for the purpose of these laws. Instead the relevant law is 22.011 (b)(10) [also (b)(1) but that is harder to prove] when the assailant is “a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser”.

There is a statute of limitations for that (unless there is probable cause to believe that the accused has done this 5 or more times which is one reason to file a police report even though it appears to be too late). A question is when did the (b)(10) go on the books. It seems to have existed in 2004.

I don’t know if Dee meant to insinuate this or not, but………
In the title ….. “Drop the Mic Moments” …… Well, there wouldn’t have been any “Drop the Mic Moments” if AS hadn’t dropped his pants!

@ Erp:

Thanks for the correctives and info, Erp — much appreciated and hopefully the details will be helpful in sorting out the situation.

@ Lea:

“Even on dates, even in apartments/hotel rooms with teenage men who were clearly interested, NONE OF THEM treated me as poorly as this man did his teenage youth group member. His behavior is appalling.”
++++++++++

indeed. who pulls it out, cold turkey, and says do it as a first attempt at intimacy with someone they are interested in?

it would have been inappropriate with someone mature and experienced, let alone someone young and in years and life experience.

I wonder what would’ve happened if at the church service at Highpoint on Sunday, Andy had said…

****THIS IS WHAT ANDY SAVAGE SHOULD HAVE SAID AT THE SERVICE, BUT DIDN’T******

“Wait. Stop the music and the emotional pleas and orchestrated manipulations for people to feel sorry for me. I, Andy Savage, sinned greatly–against a young girl, my Lord, and multiple ministries by my horrific actions and through my lack of willingness to take responsibility.

Today, I take full–let me say that again–FULL–responsibility for sexually assaulting a high school student under my care when I was her youth pastor. What I did was reprehensible. She trusted me. I was her picture of God when she was a vulnerable, impressionable youth, and I betrayed her.

*****(ANDY SAVAGE SHOULD’VE SAID THIS, BUT DIDN’T)**********

I want to first apologize to Jules. I never did so appropriately. I am sorry that I abused my position, your trust, and treated you like less than a person. I’m sorry that my abuse involved coercing you to do things for my contemptible sexual pleasure; I am sure that night has been the cause of great consternation and spiritual questioning for you over these many years; it should’ve been more so for me, and I am now ashamed I am sorry that this apology is necessary and even more sorry that it is 20 years late in coming. I am sorry that I never humbled myself to apologize to your family for abusing their trust, as well.

I am sorry that I attempted to sweep my sexual assault on your innocence under the rug for these many years, in hopes that I would not be disqualified from what I wanted to be a lifetime occupation in ministry. I now realize that I wanted all of the perks from the pulpit with none of the responsibilities.

*******(ANDY SAVAGE SHOULD’VE SAID THIS, BUT DIDN’T)**********

I do take full responsibility for my wicked actions, now, and if there are legal consequences, so-be-it. If charged, I will plead “guilty”, because I am. I offer no legal defense nor gamesmanship for what I have done. The Apostle Paul spent time in prison for good works; it seems that I should expect no less for the actual evil I have done. I am ready to take what is coming to me. I put aside my thirst for comfort and now thirst only for righteousness.

I trust God’s care, and, if I end up in prison, I pray that He will make me useful there.

****(ANDY SAVAGE SHOULD’VE SAID THIS, BUT DIDN’T)******

I am stepping down from occupational ministry, effective immediately. I know that I am biblically unqualified to be on the pulpit . Yet, I also know that there are other ways I might be even more effective for the Kingdom’s sake, but they will require a transparency and humility that I have not shown to this point in my life.

I also call on the people who helped me to cover up my misdeeds to step down from professional ministry. While you did not commit the first sin, you compounded it. Your actions hurt an already suffering young girl, were illegal, and led us to where we are today, with the world looking on in disdain at a dis-functional church that doesn’t seem to be able to delineate right from wrong to people who clearly expect God’s light to shine distinctly from the church over the moral issues of our day. There needs to be renewal, healing, and a restoration of faith in the church as an institution. I am sorry that I put you in a position to sin, and I hate that none of us were courageous enough to do the right thing. Certainly this apology is for may actions alone, but I hope the Spirit of God moves you to bring a revival of healing.

***(ANDY SAVAGE SHOULD’VE SAID THIS, BUT DIDN’T)*********

I am sorry to you, my congregation at Highpoint. I have put you in the position of feeling as if you had to defend the indefensible in me. Because you liked and looked up to me, you stood steadfastly beside me when I truly didn’t deserve it. I like to think I got into ministry to help others, but I have shown no concern for anyone but myself and have led you astray and caused such pain. You need better from a shepherd. But if you will grant me one last bit of “authority”…I beseech you 2 things…1. Do not in any way criticize the victim for my fall from grace. The millstone I wear is just and is mine alone. But, please do not make yourself fitted for millstones by further hurting Jules or showing a cruelty and blind loyalty to the undeserving that might turn others away from Christ. 2. Never let any man be your conduit to God. No man is worthy. No man is necessary. The curtain has been torn. You are literate and know how to read your own Bibles, even without the pithy extra-Biblical exposition you listen to in church or pick up for purchase in your local Christian bookstore.

****(ANDY SAVAGE SHOULD’VE SAID THIS, BUT DIDN’T)********

I have apologized to my Lord and God and to my family. I will keep that private, but know that it is a pain and regret that aches deep in my bones. Unfortunately, my suffering is shared by them, and I have brought my shame upon them, as well. Hard times are ahead, as our lives change drastically, but while I don’t know what the future holds, I do know Who holds the future, and I trust Him.

Don’t fret for me. I will be fine. Concern yourselves with ministering to those who are hurting, whether it be Jules, the person sitting next to at this service, or the forgotten hungry man on the corner. I’m sorry that I have let you down. Know that God won’t. Don’t applaud me for being late to being honest before you, God, and those I’ve hurt; save your applause for God when you see what He does with this mess after we humble ourselves. Please, go live out the Word, and I will try to do the same.

HOW MUCH DIFFERENT WOULD THINGS BE, IF ANDY HAD SAID THESE THINGS, INSTEAD OF ISSUING SELF-SERVING SPIN?

If a PR firm has handled this mess (Caissa?), it should be fired and payment should be cancelled, because honesty and accountability from leadership were all that were necessary to change Highpoint from being a horrible joke of a church into a shining light for God amidst the storm. Blown opportunity.

Can you imagine how people would’ve flocked to such a church?

Of course, it would’ve required Savage and Conlee actually caring more about others than themselves. I guess they just didn’t know how to fake that, much less live it. Blown opportunity. Blown lives.

Max wrote:

I call it Christianity Lite.

The ironic part is churches like this often criticise “high church” traditions because of the “dead rituals.” But they end up replacing them with arguably deader rituals.
Q: “Do you have any traditions?”
A: “No, we pretty much so the same thing every week.”
…Nothing new under the sun.

CBS did a great job. They scanned the photo of Andy and managed to show him towering in size over Jules. They played Jules saying that what happened to her was against the law. And they narrated the fact that Andy instructed her to keep it secret and take it to her grave,

They also said Highpoint would have additional comment soon.

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Saw the segment on CBS Evening News. I thought Jules did a fantastic job!

Jules did a great job on CBS News! I’m so sorry that this is what it took for what he did to her to be recognized.

My roommate is a former youth leader and currently does pulpit supply. We watched the segment together and he sat in shock. He was amazed that the church did that service Sunday morning and let him on stage. He facepalmed when I told him they pulled the “He Who is without sin” sermon out that morning and about the “You are worthy Andy!” moments from the off-pitch singer. We ended watching it with him saying that if he were the a pastor Highpoint right now, he would have resigned afterward instead of give that sermon.

And this is part of the abuse that continued 20 years later. Yes, the assault happened in 1998, but the lying and enabling continues today. What Andy Savage did was illegal and horrible, but what Conlee said Sunday morning demonstrates that he is also unqualified to be running a church for now.

Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

As a parent, we expect that people in leadership at churches to have a track record of proper behavior… and preventing predator from infesting the church…

As a parent, I want a youth leader that sets a good example for my boys as well as a healthy respect for the girls. Implying that this behavior is somehow passable is as bad for the boys as the girls.

I watched the CBS news piece and grieved. The world uses situations like this to look at Christianity in America and conclude there is nothing to it. In their minds, they now have additional justification to reject the gospel message and its messengers. There is certainly the human tragedy in the lives of both victim and abuser, but the precious name of Jesus is tread underfoot and the church becomes a byword and reproach. This is what happens when church leaders fail to do the right thing.

Muzjik wrote:

Sadly, I suspect that this is why the NY Times was so willing to run the story. I’m glad this is being exposed but sad that those who should have been “exposing the wolves” failed…so the task fell to those hostile to Christ. With glee, probably.

I’m a Christian and I’m happy they are exposing this, too. I’m sure there are some Christians who work for the Times who are not hostile to Christ.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

Thanks for the correctives and info, Erp — much appreciated and hopefully the details will be helpful in sorting out the situation.

It might be possible that he could have been charged also with child abuse (child here does include 17 year olds I think): “specific acts or omissions by a person responsible for a child’s care, custody or welfare”. The question is whether he was a person responsible for her care, custody or welfare as defined by Texas law (it does include employees and volunteers in child care facilities). However that would be for a lawyer to know (and again there is the statute of limitations).

Erp wrote:

he could have been charged also with child abuse

Check his computer hard drive for child porn?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/01/09/sexual-harassment-how-some-apologies-fall-flat/1001000001/

How some apologies fail.

The standing ovation is really eerie. I think it shows that Christians are no longer shocked by much.

The other thing…. there is a pretty big age difference between 22 and 17. This is not the same as high school sweethearts where one of them turns 18 first.

That would be a twisted thing to do on a first date between two 22 year olds…. it is hard to believe that it was the only time he pulled something like that.

I struggle with lust like many guys… but the utter disrespect for a young lady and the reckless disregard for THE LAW shows he is sick. It was illegal!

@ raswhiting:

Thanks for that info, @raswhiting.

A time or two I’ve had to do some historical research work on state statutes, and it is intense and tedious to make sure it gets done correctly. Start with the current relevant statutes, and then work your way backward through all the footnoted amendments — when they were passed by the state legislature AND when they were posted as going into effect, etc., until you reach the year you’re looking for and you’ve deconstructed all the amendments between now and that earlier point to get to what was in effect (or not, or in what version) for the year in question. Or, sometimes you find an earlier version of the law and work your way forward.

It typically yields important information, but wowzers — what a process …

I don’t think I can ever look at an ice cream cone the same way again…. 🙁

Jules, you are a brave, brave woman! We all stand behind you! You are not alone! We hear you! I wish I had even half your courage. God bless you!

Just saw the story on CBS Evening News.
Supposededly the church is going to be saying more in the coming days.
And apparently Savage has apologized to her.
But really burn at at the down play of this my Savage’s new church- an “incident”, I was a “staffer”, and the requisite standing ovation by the clapping seals.

“However, we victims’ advocates are carrying big spotlights”. That phrase struck me…. because I never ever knew that such a thing existed. How different things might have been if there had been a “victim’s advocate” for someone like me…I hope that Jules finds what she needs to recover and I hope that the Risen Christ has pity on Andrew Savage and helps him get in touch with his own core feelings enough that he realizes what he has done to “a sister in Christ” when she was still “a child”. There is forgiveness for that when there is the willingness to “repent for real”… May our God have pity and provide mercy for both victim and “perpetrator” (don’t slam me for the brackets, do remember I am a true survivor of a “most repulsive crime” and please trust my gut. All I want is for “the crooked things to be made straight”, which is what every “true” victim of this type of abuse ultimately wants. What was broken to not hurt our kids or spouses and what was twisted by evil to be made straight again by good. Godspeed to you Jules, and may our Risen Christ give you the ability to forgive something that in our mortal beings no one of us could ever forgive or “get over”.

@ken F. yea, you would know, since you have been kind enough to be married for over 25 years to one of those “previously chewed gums” {not that I could prevent it…}. I am only posting this in case there is another “chewed gum” who needs encouragement. Trust me, God does not deal in “chewed gum” only precious brothers and sisters in Christ, ergo, absolutely essential Children!
Y’all, please don’t listen to these {demonic} lies !

so I posted that my husband has been kind enough to stay married to me for over 25 years even though I am another piece of chewed gum. My comment is in moderation but honor to the man who has loved me in spite of what a vicious twisted human being chose to do to me when I was a child and was away from my parents….
Hopefully my comment makes it out of moderation. I am not very good at navigating this site and I usually prefer to lurk….

Muff Potter wrote:

it’s not likely that you (generic you) can have a genuine relationship with Christ in the old liturgical traditions.

Hog wash is what I say to the fundies on this one.

As to the above comments. I was at the church Jules attended during this time and the congregation was not told the truth and there was NO apology to Jules discipleship group. My daughter was in that group and I know for a fact he never apologized. The church had a going away party for Andy..

Muff Potter wrote:

Wolves? More like Pennywise the clown from novelist Stephen King.

(Giggle!)
No, Pennywise doesn’t work for me. When I think about Pennywise, I think about Tim Curry (who played Pennywise in the tv miniseries) and that automatically makes me think about The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Apparently, Pennywise triggers a different reactions in me.

The CBS story is titled: “Pastor admits to “sexual incident” with teen 20 years ago, gets standing ovation.”

I’m not ashamed of the gospel, or of Jesus. But this, in His name? Yeah, I don’t want to be associated with any of this nonsense.

Lydia wrote:

I am not a big fan of former victims meeting with their sexual assaulters for a big kumbaya moment.

Even if this were necessary, why does the victim need to present herself on the pastors turf? Why can’t the assailant come by himself to a place of the victim’s choosing with just her supporters present? Why does the female victim have to demonstrate courage instead of the male perpetrator? So much for kumbaya.

Thersites wrote:

Lydia wrote:
I am not a big fan of former victims meeting with their sexual assaulters for a big kumbaya moment.
Even if this were necessary, why does the victim need to present herself on the pastors turf? Why can’t the assailant come by himself to a place of the victim’s choosing with just her supporters present? Why does the female victim have to demonstrate courage instead of the male perpetrator? So much for kumbaya.

Memphis police headquarters sounds like a mighty fine place for them to meet!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Comrade Stalin and Baba Saddam also received standing ovations. A lot of standing ovations.

The commissars take notice of those who lack enthusiasm, don’t be the first to stop cheering.

Muff Potter wrote:

Over the years I’ve heard them harp endlessly on how it’s all about a “relationship” with Jesus

I’ve mentioned it before so excuse the repetition. Agreed, there is a lot of emphasis on a “relationship with Jesus” but my experience is a 30 year old “pastor” with a few years of seminary trumps all the “relationship” experience of a dozen believers in their 60s. It is just another example of those who preach one thing but live the opposite.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

The CBS story is titled: “Pastor admits to “sexual incident” with teen 20 years ago, gets standing ovation.”
I’m not ashamed of the gospel, or of Jesus. But this, in His name? Yeah, I don’t want to be associated with any of this nonsense.

Romans 2:24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

I haven’t read all the comments here yet so someone may have mentioned this already. If Andy Savage had his way from the get-go, no one would have known about this “incident” (as he calls it), because he begged Jules to be quiet, and take it to the grave with her. So, he played the pastors back then, and they were all too willing to fall for it because who wants to expose a youth pastor that was given a responsible position as an actual pervert? Might make those pastors look bad and hurt the reputation of the church. And now 20 years later, Andy Savage is playing the people at Highpoint Church and they’re falling for it. Fake remorse both times. Both times because he was exposed by Jules, not because he was sorry and wanted to repent. He had a chance the first time 20 years ago to deal with this situation in the right way, and instead he hoped Jules would be silenced into fear. He had a chance to deal with this situation in the right way after receiving Jule’s email, but instead hope she would remain silent. If Savage’s deeds had never been reported by Jules, no one would have known about the sexual assault but Savage and Jules. From the get-go, Savage was about hiding his sin (crime).

Barbara Roberts wrote:

Sandra wrote:

Here’s the link
http://www.highpointmemphis.com/andy-savage

I just saved the link to the WebArchive.

Whoo who! You’re thinking just like me, Barbara!

As i follow this story i am beginning to be convinced that perhaps the division is taking place between the wheat and the tares. Just watching the Highpoint service and the blindness of those present makes me see what is happening. They quote Malachi 3 and expect God’s blessing upon Andy yet refuse to acknowledge our wonderful Lord grieving over one of His sheep bring preyed upon by a wolf. It boggles the mind and touches our spirits. Open our eyes, Lord, that we may see as You see.

@ cindy treadway:
At the end of the service Chris says that Highpoint is committed to helping every single women who has been hurt by sexual sin. But all of his emphasis is on forgiveness and never saying a negative word about anyone. So just how does he plan on helping these women?

@ Max:

“I watched the CBS news piece and grieved. The world uses situations like this to look at Christianity in America and conclude there is nothing to it. …but the precious name of Jesus is tread underfoot and the church becomes a byword and reproach. This is what happens when church leaders fail to do the right thing.”
+++++++++++++++++++

yes, christianity. that would be christianity, inc. i feel that right now people are rightly disgusted with the products of christian culture. i think Jesus is in agreement.

thankfully, God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are bigger than the tower humans have built called the institution.

elastigirl wrote:

indeed. who pulls it out, cold turkey, and says do it as a first attempt at intimacy with someone they are interested in?

it would have been inappropriate with someone mature and experienced, let alone someone young and in years and life experience.

Absolutely.

And all this labelling it ‘an incident’…hmmm, I wonder if 17yr old Andy, having been driven to a remote location by an older woman with power over him, & instructed to do the same to her, would have considered it an incident? What if he had been driven to the same location at 17 by a 22 yr old man, who asked the same he had asked of Jules, & he’d done it through fear, would it be considered an ‘incident’ then? Would the ‘apology’ given (aka damage limitation) have been enough?

@ Beakerj
:my questions also….and do not forget, Andy had previuosly been caught, alone tickling a high school girl in a bedroom ….

The way that Andy Savage has recently tried to minimize what he did shows that I am sure Savage also did the same thing 20 years ago.

Savage calls it an “incident” when it was sexual assault. Apparently Savage is trying to lead people to believe it was something consensual between adults when he did this to an underage girl.

Savage says he was on church staff though other places he says he was a youth pastor.

Savage uses the wording that he was a college student to again try and down play his action. Also no where does he state his age when he did this.

Thus I have no doubt he did a similar minimize the sin and hide it 20 years ago right after

Again I have no doubt that Savage did something similar 20 years ago vs. accepting the consequences of his actions and sadly even allowing Jules to take blame.

At the end of the article posted here, Dee noted:

I have one question from Steve Bradley, who did not return my phone call, “Did you call the police? If not, why not?” Note also his plausible deniability? If I were Larry Cotton, I might be a bit concerned.

though I was not a part of every meeting

I re-read Steve Bradley’s statement, which includes a few details from his version of what went on in 1998. I was struck by the implication that the church leaders held multiple meetings about this. And yet, apparently no one reported the assault to the police.

This is why I’ve fumbled around with trying to find out what the specifics of relevant Texas laws that were in force in 1998 — because I thought that could help illuminate potential issues of responsibility, accountability, complicity.

According to CURRENT Texas statutes, mandatory reporters are required to report within 48 hours to law enforcement or other designated state agencies.

So, if that specific deadline also happened to be what was in force in 1998, what’s with all these church leader meetings? But still no reporting to authorities? Isn’t the person who finds out about, or suspects, abuse or assault has occurred required to report?

But they had meetings …

Doesn’t that fact actually implicate every/all persons who heard ANY details, who discussed the situation AT ALL, and yet who did not carry out their mandatory duty to report known/suspected sexual assault of a minor?

Beside asking Mr Bradley if he called the police, perhaps he should be asked for a list of all who were at any meetings where any information about what Andy Savage did was spoken. And then each and every one of them be asked if he/she reported it to law enforcement.

https://apps.rainn.org/policy/policy-state-laws.cfm?state=Texas&group=4

SBCVOICES just posted on this! Supportive of Jules and critical of how it is/was handled.

http://sbcvoices.com/andy-savage-sexual-assault-and-the-church/

Here is link.

Sorry, I don’t know how to post a link that is accessible here.

(I’ve tried to post this twice and keep getting told my IP address is SPAM. I’ve switched servers…I hope this goes through.)

Susan Jones wrote:

Jules is spinning a very different story from what I heard as my husband was one of the people he confessed and asked forgiveness from, as he should, but it was not assault.

That just sounds like your husband got his story, not hers.

D Thomas wrote:

I was at the church Jules attended during this time and the congregation was not told the truth and there was NO apology to Jules discipleship group.

Thanks. That sounds more like reality than the spin we’ve heard lately.

Susan Jones wrote:

I was at the church when this happened. Jules is spinning a very different story from what I heard as my husband was one of the people he confessed and asked forgiveness from, as he should, but it was not assault. I’m sure you won’t publish this as I’m not “pro Jules”. I love her and knew her 20 years ago and I’m actually saddened by her actions. The truth will come out.

Why do you believe Jules is spinning the story, but you believe Andy’s story as told to you by your husband?

Why did Andy Savage ask forgiveness from your husband when Jules was the other person involved?

How do you know it was not sexual assault? Were you there? Did you speak to Jules yourself? Did you help Jules? Did you seek her out to understand what she went through or to even near her story?

elastigirl wrote:

christianity, inc. i feel that right now people are rightly disgusted with the products of christian culture. i think Jesus is in agreement

Attempts for the church to be culturally-relevant are resulting in a diluted gospel and a diminished Jesus. The Trinity has very little to do with Christianity Inc. in America. Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. The institution we call church is OK if it is reaching souls for Christ, equipping them to do the work of the ministry, and engaging them in the Great Commission. Anything less than that is doing church without God. “Less than that” examples continue to flood the blogosphere and secular media.

@ Beakerj:
Beaker I wish everyone would read your detailed breakdown in the last thread of how terrible this was as a human interaction, even beyond all the other issues. I would be angry if this happened on a date as a grown woman, at 17 I have no idea how I would have reacted.

What is true, though, is that men know better. Even teenagers. All this talk about him being ‘so young’ is bunk.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I don’t want to be associated with any of this nonsense

I feel a rumbling across America – perhaps even within New Calvinist ranks – that the church in America is desperately off-track. Maybe, just maybe, we will now have a new breed of pastors (the real deal) step out of the wilderness and raise the name of Jesus above all other names in both belief and practice. Could it be that the Christian industrial complex with all its bells, whistles, and celebrities is about to end in favor of preaching the pure Gospel message again?!

@ Lea:
Yes! This was not a date!
But even if someone is skeptical of the details (I’m not) or doesn’t think that this was assault (I do), how can you take this guy seriously as a minister? He went directly from this to teaching “True Loves Waits” and built a career on preaching about marriage and sex. He has no credibility now.

Max wrote:

Jen wrote:

SBCVOICES just posted on this! Supportive of Jules and critical of how it is/was handled.

As they should be! The New Calvinists over there typically stick by their guys, until the potato gets too hot to handle.

Would be more encouraged if the Southern Baptist Convention’s President weren’t Steve Gaines. Steve Gaines is the pastor of Memphis mega-church, Bellevue Baptist. Steve has been caught having known child molesters on staff, including one whose duties included providing counseling.

I’m afraid every one of our churches needs to be bulldozed, and we need to start over with volunteer pastors who earn a real living (tent-making) & do ministry out of love.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

I’m afraid every one of our churches needs to be bulldozed

I don’t think that is necessary. Most SBC churches are full of salt-of-the-earth people and pastors.

As for the seminaries and the other SBC entities, the bulldozer is probably appropriate.

@ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
Yes! When my son was a Scout his dad went along to summer camp as one of the adult leaders. I would never have allowed him to attend camp any other way.

I am sick of the leadership in churches that feed the vulnerable to the wolves.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

Max wrote:

Jen wrote:

SBCVOICES just posted on this! Supportive of Jules and critical of how it is/was handled.

As they should be! The New Calvinists over there typically stick by their guys, until the potato gets too hot to handle.

Would be more encouraged if the Southern Baptist Convention’s President weren’t Steve Gaines. Steve Gaines is the pastor of Memphis mega-church, Bellevue Baptist. Steve has been caught having known child molesters on staff, including one whose duties included providing counseling.

I’m afraid every one of our churches needs to be bulldozed, and we need to start over with volunteer pastors who earn a real living (tent-making) & do ministry out of love.

I agree. Perhaps I’m getting jaded.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

we need to start over with volunteer pastors who earn a real living (tent-making) & do ministry out of love

Hmmmm … that would be too “New Testament” for modern preacher-boys! I doubt that any 1st century church pastors made six-figure salaries and lived in million dollar mansions (even adjusted for the currency of that day). Why don’t 21st century church folks realize this and stop supporting the mega-mess?! When celebrity pastors make as much as Hollywood stars, it should be obvious to all that the God of Entertainment is on the throne in far too many churches, not Jesus.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jacksonwu/2018/01/10/seek-justice-church-loses-face-andy-savage/

This is an interesting article. I want to be mad at him for this part about Chris being a ‘godly’ man (see below). IMO, a godly man would not have heard the details of that ‘incident’ and seen it as ho-hum, even if he did misunderstand from her words that she had given consent. Andy clearly violated the rules and his behavior was terribly wrong, even if it had been an upfront date, instead of sneaky, lying sidetrip to an empty lot that she had been uninformed about.

Larry is a godly man of tremendous integrity. Knowing him as I do, I am certain he never intended to shame Jules into silence. I’m confident Larry grossly misjudged her comments when he asked her, “So you’re telling me you participated?” Without question, he made an error in judgment. This however does not warrant the accusations being leveled against Larry.

I also didn’t like him throwing that ‘do not admit a charge against an elder’ thing out. Because ugh. That said, he makes a lot of good points. And his view of the incident confirms Jules and everyone else’s point that the truth of the matter was NOT clearly communicated. It was left vague, purposefully so. Which means that Andy, this week, lied. Ya’ll. That’s a problem.

This link that someone posted:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jacksonwu/2018/01/10/seek-justice-church-loses-face-andy-savage/

Has an incriminating account by someone who was around when the initial Savage act occurred. This person is quoted as saying:

I was a member of this youth group and distinctly remember the incident and subsequent going away part for Andy. I was a high school senior. The church was definitely led to believe it was an “innocent kiss” – and consensual as well. At the time I remember thinking Andy made and(sic) incredibly stupid decision, but I don’t anyone could have imagined how horrific his actions actually were. I am incredibly disappointed in Larry Cotton and Steve Bradley, who I knew well and looked up to at the same time. I am disgusted by Andy’s actions….

Thus what the church members in TX were led to believe happened and what really occurred according to Jules account are certainly 2 different things. Apparently Andy never really took care of this issue 20 years ago but along with the church leaders down there what Andy Savage did was white washed.

Lea wrote:

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jacksonwu/2018/01/10/seek-justice-church-loses-face-andy-savage/
This is an interesting article. I want to be mad at him for this part about Chris being a ‘godly’ man (see below). IMO, a godly man would not have heard the details of that ‘incident’ and seen it as ho-hum, even if he did misunderstand from her words that she had given consent. Andy clearly violated the rules and his behavior was terribly wrong, even if it had been an upfront date, instead of sneaky, lying sidetrip to an empty lot that she had been uninformed about.
Larry is a godly man of tremendous integrity. Knowing him as I do, I am certain he never intended to shame Jules into silence. I’m confident Larry grossly misjudged her comments when he asked her, “So you’re telling me you participated?” Without question, he made an error in judgment. This however does not warrant the accusations being leveled against Larry.

Jackson Wu wants to desperately believe that his mentor Larry Cotton “is a godly man of tremendous integrity”, “never intended to shame Jules into silence” and he only “misjudged her comments”….the testimony of D Thomas on the other thread contradicts this. What follows is a quote from the other thread, I don’t think I can get it into italics:

Thomas UNITED STATES on Tue Jan 09, 2018 at 09:24 PM said:
Jules,
I’m so sorry for all that you have suffered.
My husband and I stand with you and know it must have taken great courage to tell your story.
What you don’t know is our daughter was in your discipleship group and when she told us about what had happened to you,I was furious that the church leadership was trying to act like this was not a big deal. I personally called Larry Cotton to let him know I knew the truth and asked what was he going to do about it. The going away party for Andy was ridiculous and the next thing we knew he was at another church in Memphis with their blessing. The church hid the facts and there was no apology that I know of.

Song of Joy wrote:

Jackson Wu wants to desperately believe that his mentor Larry Cotton “is a godly man of tremendous integrity”, “never intended to shame Jules into silence” and he only “misjudged her comments”

He saw that Conlee was defending his friend…he doesn’t see that he is doing the same.
Song of Joy wrote:

and the next thing we knew he was at another church in Memphis with their blessing.

Oooh, I missed that part ‘with their blessing’. This is what I want to hear more of. This is where the ‘restoration’ talk is nonsense. He should never have been hired by another church, but definitely not that soon and definitely not to work with more younger people!!!

Jen wrote:

SBCVOICES just posted on this! Supportive of Jules and critical of how it is/was handled.

http://sbcvoices.com/andy-savage-sexual-assault-and-the-church/

Here is link.

Sorry, I don’t know how to post a link that is accessible here.

(I’ve tried to post this twice and keep getting told my IP address is SPAM. I’ve switched servers…I hope this goes through.)

I might beg to differ with the author’s assertion that “only the church has the answer to a culture that lacks any concept of sexual morality.” One concept in the culture that seems to be growing is the idea of consent. The church is not driving the idea, either; parts of the church do not even recognize the concept (the branches, for example, where the wife is implied to have given her consent the minute she said “I do” and where the people believe there is no such thing as marital rape). Every person I have talked to outside the church expresses firm convictions that children are “off limits” from adults (there are abusers in the culture as well as in the church, true, and they are also despised — maybe the abusers within the church are more despised, though, because they preach morality at everyone else).

In any case, I find believers to be naive at best to think that only the church offers a moral code.

@ Lea:
I agree with you!

Lea wrote:

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jacksonwu/2018/01/10/seek-justice-church-loses-face-andy-savage/

This is an interesting article. I want to be mad at him for this part about Chris being a ‘godly’ man (see below). IMO, a godly man would not have heard the details of that ‘incident’ and seen it as ho-hum, even if he did misunderstand from her words that she had given consent. Andy clearly violated the rules and his behavior was terribly wrong, even if it had been an upfront date, instead of sneaky, lying sidetrip to an empty lot that she had been uninformed about.

Larry is a godly man of tremendous integrity. Knowing him as I do, I am certain he never intended to shame Jules into silence. I’m confident Larry grossly misjudged her comments when he asked her, “So you’re telling me you participated?” Without question, he made an error in judgment. This however does not warrant the accusations being leveled against Larry.

I also didn’t like him throwing that ‘do not admit a charge against an elder’ thing out. Because ugh. That said, he makes a lot of good points. And his view of the incident confirms Jules and everyone else’s point that the truth of the matter was NOT clearly communicated. It was left vague, purposefully so. Which means that Andy, this week, lied. Ya’ll. That’s a problem.

I had the exact same thoughts reading that article.

cindy treadway wrote:

I watched it. What? you are worthy…I’ve heard a song talking about He is worthy

Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, not the wolves who plunder and profit off his sacrifice.

Susan Jones wrote:

The truth will come out.

It sounds like that is exactly what is happening now, Susan.

cindy treadway wrote:

If it was a “sexual sin” then why did he ask her to “take it to the grave”. Even he knew it was that severe. Right?

Of course he knew it was severe, good point. It might have affected *him* if it got out! /sarcasm/

“Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.”

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Ken P. wrote:

I don’t think that is necessary. Most SBC churches are full of salt-of-the-earth people and pastors.

Who are either uniformed and insulated or have selective hearing. And, they ignore women and tell us to sit down, shut up, and stay out of church business because ……. well, we are women. At least that’s how it is in my area of the country. I know. I’ve been an SBC female for over 40 years.

Nancy2, you are correct. Women are second class people in most SBC Churches. Do not tell me otherwise. It is part of the reason I am ‘ done’.And don’t tell me find another denomination. The nearest Methodist Church is 28 miles away. Nearest Lutheran? 29 miles. Nearest Episcopal? ( My choice)33 miles. I am surrounded by SBC, Pentecostals, and non-denoms,which are either Baptist or Pentecostal in their leaning…

Deebs, getting to the end of this thread, I feel so frustrated. I want a way to shout “AMEN!” to many of these posts. YES! TRUTH! Preach it! At least a “like” button…. please?

K.D. wrote:

I am surrounded by SBC, Pentecostals, and non-denoms,which are either Baptist or Pentecostal in their leaning…

Same here ….. + Church of Christ, Catholic, and an LDS church 11 miles away: There is a church that calls itself “Methodist” and a Nazarene church in the same town. But, I know several of the members and I have visited there. Please, they’re just as baptist as the rest. They just aren’t SBC.

Brother of a victim wrote:

The pattern was repeated frequently, with the pastor convincing him to repent, urging the victims to forgive, and keeping the scandal out of the press.

I’m so sorry for your family, and all the other victims, who were victims not just of the elder but of the churches policy.

@ ishy:

@ Mercy:
Exactly

@ Mercy:

Yes. This is exactly what we are seeing.

Lea wrote:

Like. Lots of confirmation of this showing up in comments from former members. Which disproves what Andy is saying *now*, which ought to give people like Susan pause.

Even Cotton said Savage did not resign, but was fired. Savage keeps claiming he told “full responsibility” and resigned. That clearly means one of them is a liar.

Susan Jones wrote:

I was at the church when this happened. Jules is spinning a very different story from what I heard as my husband was one of the people he confessed and asked forgiveness from, as he should, but it was not assault. I’m sure you won’t publish this as I’m not “pro Jules”. I love her and knew her 20 years ago and I’m actually saddened by her actions. The truth will come out.

But you didn’t hear from Jules 20 years ago nor does it seem did your husband instead you heard only one side, Savage, second hand through your husband. I note that a D Thomas in the previous post reports her daughter was in the discipleship group that Jules told some of the story.

My husband and I stand with you and know it must have taken great courage to tell your story.
What you don’t know is our daughter was in your discipleship group and when she told us about what had happened to you,I was furious that the church leadership was trying to act like this was not a big deal. I personally called Larry Cotton to let him know I knew the truth and asked what was he going to do about it. …

In other words someone who heard Jules’ story (again secondhand through her daughter) 20 years ago is standing by Jules’ version.

Juulie Downs wrote:

Deebs, getting to the end of this thread, I feel so frustrated. I want a way to shout “AMEN!” to many of these posts. YES! TRUTH! Preach it! At least a “like” button…. please?

Yes, pretty please!!! I don’t always have much to say or add to what’s already been said, but I do want to show support. I’ve been following this blog and Julie Anne’s for a few years now and I do appreciate what they and this community are doing to speak up and speak out. There are some great commenters here!

@ K.D.:
I gave up on churches 20 years ago. Still love the Lord, just gave up on the church part. Too much underhanded stuff going on and too much demand to give more money. The last church wanted us to give the equivalent of one house payment as an offering above the tithe. And, they started taking credit cards for your offering. So much for teaching financial responsibility.

Also in the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/10/a-pastor-admitted-a-past-sexual-incident-with-a-teen-his-congregation-gave-him-a-standing-ovation/

There are some interesting quotes in this article. Showing these below:

But Savage’s situation tracks with a larger tendency within the evangelical community, according to Christa Brown, an expert on church abuse scandals and coverups. “Religious leaders use forgiveness theology as a cover, and as an avoidance, of accountability,” Brown told The Washington Post. “And it’s a way of further shaming victims. ‘What a bad girl you are, you aren’t forgiving.’”

“Faith can be a very powerful thing, and power without accountability is a dangerous thing,” church abuse expert Brown told The Post. “While evangelicals profess great faith, I think they are also effectively dismissive of their faith’s power because, if they actually recognized the power that they afford to their faith leaders, they would demand the implementation of accountability structures. It’s what responsible organizations do.”

Good point about “forgiveness theology” as well as the need for accountability structures.

ishy wrote:

Even Cotton said Savage did not resign, but was fired. Savage keeps claiming he told “full responsibility” and resigned. That clearly means one of them is a liar.

The problem is if you are fired, why do you then get a going away party? Doesn’t make sense unless the party was a big cover up for what really went down?

Susan Jones wrote:

I was at the church when this happened. Jules is spinning a very different story from what I heard as my husband was one of the people he confessed and asked forgiveness from, as he should, but it was not assault. I’m sure you won’t publish this as I’m not “pro Jules”. I love her and knew her 20 years ago and I’m actually saddened by her actions. The truth will come out.

You mentioned that the truth will come out. If the “facts” are in dispute (Jules spinning a different story from what you heard from your husband) how are we to ascertain the truth? I think Jules and Andy need to prepare a written statement which presents the “facts” they both agree are true. Without such a statement, comments about this situation are merely conjecture.

This is finally being reported on Baptist News Global. They give credit and links to TWW and WatchKeep.
https://baptistnews.com/article/metoo-spotlight-turns-southern-baptist-megachurch/#.WlZ9DetOKrV

Here is an excellent response to Andy Savage’s “apology”, posted at Christians for Biblical Equality International(CBE). Thank you to Ashley Easter, founder of The Courage Conference:

https://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/4-problems-andy-savages-apology?platform=hootsuite

Bridget wrote:

Do you really expect Jules to sit down and write a statement of facts with a man who abused her as a teen? I hope you are not serious.

Yes, I am serious, very serious. Jules would accomplish this through an attorney. I assume there is an attorney who would provide such service pro bono. Otherwise, what do we have – just conjecture.

Ken G wrote:

Otherwise, what do we have – just conjecture.

No. We have Jules statement. Believe it or not, but it isn’t ‘conjecture’.

Ken G wrote:

Yes, I am serious, very serious. Jules would accomplish this through an attorney. I assume there is an attorney who would provide such service pro bono. Otherwise, what do we have – just conjecture.

I just don’t see why Jules now should have to do this. Her church at the time didn’t report the assault and she was told to keep quiet about it. But she should now try to work out the facts with a man who never wanted the facts exposed. Seems like a futile effort up against the likes of Savage and all the men who have cover over his “incident.”

brad/futuristguy wrote:

Because of failures to report back then, the “court” of public opinion is playing that role now.

Yet another practical reason why Christian leaders obeying the laws of the land is an important protective/preserving force for good and for justice.

So true. I wish the pastors who didn’t report then could be prosecuted now. Maybe that would help get pastors up to speed with the laws of the land.

@ AbuseCrusher:
What happened with Craig Strickland? I thought he just decided to retire. Was there more to the story?

Bridget wrote:

Ken G wrote:

I think Jules and Andy need to prepare a written statement which presents the “facts” they both agree are true.

Do you really expect Jules to sit down and write a statement of facts with a man who abused her as a teen? I hope you are not serious.

I agree, Bridget. That would be entitely inappropriate, especially where there is a potential court case.

Jack wrote:

Highpoint Church is a terrible place. But a terrible place with deep pockets.

In the interests of openness and honesty, perhaps they should rename it ‘Hellpoint Church’.

Fired… Resigned…
+++++++++++++++++

the way i see it, the situation was too dangerous (for church and pastor reputation and to not lose giving units, that is) for Andy to stick around. He had to go.

The kind of a situation where the higher up asks the underling to submit their resignation and they both know it has to happen. Effectively being fired, but for various reasons each party seems to have a reason to appear to be the initiator. (or appear as not being the initiator)

I don’t know enough about the human resources world.

I just checked The Gospel Coalition church finder and could not find a listing for Highpoint Church. Does anyone know if Highpoint Church is a TGC church or if they have been scrubbed from the TGC site?

Forrest wrote:

Sadly, Highpoint does not seem to be listening.

“Ours is a High and Lonely Destiny, Digory.”

dee wrote:

Mike wrote:

What Andy did was not only the “sexual sin” it was a gross abuse of power

This is very, very important. Sexual abuse is not about sex. It is about power.

Well, I agree and disagree. It’s a primate thing – (a)buse of power to obtain sex. It’s a blurry line.

@ raswhiting:
The part that jumped out at me is that what made Jules speak up, both the second time at church (after pastors tried to bury it), and now, 20 years later, was the simple, sheer hypocrisy of Andy savage! If he had not had the gall to teach a ‘true love waits’ class and blithely condemn celebrities for their misdeeds while conveniently forgetting his own, he may have still gotten away with it.

An excellent FB post by author and missionary Dalaina May about this:
https://www.facebook.com/DalainaMay/posts/1093305770812361

Partial quote: “Look, it’s okay if hundreds or thousands of leaders are permanently removed from their pulpits and positions because their actions of predation and violence against women and children come to light. We can weather this storm. We must. It’s not about throwing the book or being unforgiving; it’s about setting a new standard for the sexual ethics of leaders and what counts as a disqualifying behavior. Sexual abusers and child molesters should not ever be allowed in a place of power in our churches, especially when they have used that very role as the launch pad of their abuse.”

Ken P. wrote:

I just checked The Gospel Coalition church finder and could not find a listing for Highpoint Church. Does anyone know if Highpoint Church is a TGC church or if they have been scrubbed from the TGC site?

It was there a few days ago. Does not seem to be there now.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

Steve White wrote:
@ K.D.:
I gave up on churches 20 years ago. Still love the Lord, just gave up on the church part. Too much underhanded stuff going on and too much demand to give more money. The last church wanted us to give the equivalent of one house payment as an offering above the tithe. And, they started taking credit cards for your offering. So much for teaching financial responsibility.
Well, you could’ve just used one of the ATM machines in the lobbies of so many of our churches. smh
A fellow “Done”

The money is amazing. My Chinese daughter in law ( yes, from China) was amazed at the budget of a church in the Houston area.( SBC Church) She wondered who was benefiting from the millions of dollars? Jesus or the church staff? She was just amazed. Coffee shop. Cafeteria. Their own basketball, volleyball, leagues…

Found this earlier from a member of the congregation and for your reading pleasure…… https://jessicamoseley.wordpress.com/2018/01/10/as-a-member-of-highpoint/

Disclaimer: I’m from the Memphis area but do not attend Highpoint. I attend a church down the street from one of their locations. I’ve heard Andy speak numerous times though.

The gospelly coalition crowd is very silent on this. I’ve yet to find any gospelly commentary on this one way or another. Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for them to weigh in? But I guess they have…

Max wrote:

The stupid standing ovation is making things worse for Savage.

It makes a great headline. The church was so stupid here.

raswhiting wrote:

Partial quote: “Look, it’s okay if hundreds or thousands of leaders are permanently removed from their pulpits and positions

Can I say amen.

Are we going to run out of pastors if we get rid of all the sexual predators and their defenders?? Maybe that should be a wake up call then. Plus there are a whole lot of women whom I’m sure could fill the slots if necessary…

Darlene wrote:

Muff Potter wrote:

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

The ironic part is churches like this often criticise “high church” traditions because of the “dead rituals.” But they end up replacing them with arguably deader rituals.

Great comment Ken, and yeah the irony is rich. Fundagelicals have nothing positive to say about high liturgy in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox traditions.

Over the years I’ve heard them harp endlessly on how it’s all about a “relationship” with Jesus, and by implication, it’s not likely that you (generic you) can have a genuine relationship with Christ in the old liturgical traditions.

Well, I’m going to say something controversial here, but here goes. I watched that “service” at Highpoint Church, and it appeared to be an entertainment show of the poorest quality. Their worship boils down to a Rock Concert and a Pep Talk. I don’t call that worship. There. I said it.

Oh, and that young woman moaning through the microphone at the end. I call that creepy and strange.

Lea wrote:

raswhiting wrote:
Partial quote: “Look, it’s okay if hundreds or thousands of leaders are permanently removed from their pulpits and positions
Can I say amen.
Are we going to run out of pastors if we get rid of all the sexual predators and their defenders?? Maybe that should be a wake up call then. Plus there are a whole lot of women whom I’m sure could fill the slots if necessary…

Men replaced as pastors by women? I can see SBC leadership’s heads exploding.

Lea wrote:

Plus there are a whole lot of women whom I’m sure could fill the slots if necessary…

Excellent point. Dalaina agrees I am sure.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

The gospelly coalition crowd is very silent on this. I’ve yet to find any gospelly commentary on this one way or another. Wouldn’t this be a great opportunity for them to weigh in? But I guess they have…

These guys are guilty of this stuff, themselves. They don’t want to do what moron Savage did with the Matt Lauer tweet & open up their own can of worms.

Many of the TGC board members are speaking at the Downline conference in Memphis in a few weeks. Some of them, like pastor Crawford Loritts and fmr TGC board member Sandy Willson actively participated in covering up sexual crimes at churches in Memphis.

This group couldn’t be more creepy if they all drove around in a van with darkened windows trying to lure kids with candy.

Darlene wrote:

… altar call … Calvinists don’t do that sort of thing in their services

Moderate (4-Point) Calvinists do.

This one’s really taking off.
Around 1500 comments on both Andy Savage threads.

Lea wrote:

Are we going to run out of pastors if we get rid of all the sexual predators and their defenders??

Starting to look like it…

Darlene wrote:

They’re more like a generic, non-denominational hodge-podge church.

Just like so many ‘evangelical’ churches. Anything goes! Whatever makes the pew-sitters feel good! It really is a joke, a bad joke.

Darlene wrote:

They’re more like a generic, non-denominational hodge-podge church.

Highpoint is a Southern Baptist church. Within SBC ranks, a church can lean Calvinist or non-Calvinist as long as they adhere to the Baptist Faith and Message (BFM) … and there is plenty of theological wiggle room in the BFM2000 revision, making room under the big SBC tent for New Calvinists.

Darlene wrote:

Sin is sin no matter what denomination the person belongs to.

Agreed. It matters not what theological flavor you choose.

@ Darlene:
So his remorseful behavior and chaste life (I am assuming this for conversation) isn’t enough to prove his regret? What about Saul/Paul? What about David?

@ cindy treadway:
But did he not stop? Did he not stop in the middle of the sexual incident? Seriously-what MAN does THAT? Then repents and confesses- this is a WITCH HUNT in my opinion from what we have been told to date…if ANDY SAVAGE has lived an exemplary life all these years then he has repented if not-he needs to be out of leadership within a church.

Cheryl wrote:

@ Lea:
DO you honestly not know what repentance is?

It’s more than self serving claptrap, I know that.

Cheryl wrote:

DO you honestly not know what repentance is? Confessing your sins-admitting what you are doing is wrong, HE told everyone in authority-he confessed his sin did he not? I am glad you are not God.

That is incorrect. That is not what it means. The word “repentance” in Greek literally means to turn around and go the other way. While confession is often considered the first step in that, it really means to radically change your life. It’s much harder than just saying sorry and the church should be ashamed of itself to be defining repentance as a bunch of words without living a life to back them up. This is why when Jesus often spoke to people about what it really means to have faith, like the rich man, they just turned around and left because they thought it was too hard.

And he did not tell everyone in authority, because he didn’t tell the police. The church is not the legal authority in these types of cases.

Darlene wrote:

Well, I’m going to say something controversial here, but here goes. I watched that “service” at Highpoint Church, and it appeared to be an entertainment show of the poorest quality. Their worship boils down to a Rock Concert and a Pep Talk. I don’t call that worship. There. I said it.

Not controversial at all Darlene. Let me assure you, you’re not alone in your sentiments. If I ever darken the door of a Church again, it will be one that still does one of the the ancient Liturgies.

Max wrote:

If you enter “Highpoint Church Memphis The Gospel Coalition” on a Google search, you will be directed to TGC’s Church Directory … which is strangely a blank page today re: info on Highpoint.

But thanks to cache…
http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Highpoint+Church+Memphis+The+Gospel+Coalition&d=4503932140257743&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=CcOwgCOqsfcAJo_ggQ9ezDDxkuoQYTNZ

But, as someone pointed out up-thread, there is a “report this church” button so maybe that is the reason the listing was removed.

Muzjik wrote:

Max wrote:

If you enter “Highpoint Church Memphis The Gospel Coalition” on a Google search, you will be directed to TGC’s Church Directory … which is strangely a blank page today re: info on Highpoint.

But thanks to cache…
http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Highpoint+Church+Memphis+The+Gospel+Coalition&d=4503932140257743&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=CcOwgCOqsfcAJo_ggQ9ezDDxkuoQYTNZ

Thanks Muzjik for your IT savvy to confirm this.

@ Cheryl:
Image control.

Cheryl wrote:

But did he not stop? Did he not stop in the middle of the sexual incident?

This makes it ok?!?!?

ishy wrote:

And I’ve seen a couple Highpointers on SBC Voices and elsewhere indignant that they would be considered an SBC church, because apparently Conlee has told them they are not, but they are.

As of a few seconds ago they are still SBC: http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/results.asp?query=38120

ishy wrote:

Like FW said, they don’t make it a secret what they believe. And I’ve seen a couple Highpointers on SBC Voices and elsewhere indignant that they would be considered an SBC church, because apparently Conlee has told them they are not, but they are.

Someone on Pravda said Highpoint was not an SBC church, but 2 people (our Max being one of them) called him out it. ……. Then came the litany of excuse ……. well, the SBC is a loose confederation, yada, yada ….

@ Darlene:
They remind me of seeker friendly Saddleback.

Boyd wrote:

Local Houston news (The Woodlands is a Master Planned community north of Houston & is located in Sourh Montgomery County) reported this 2 days ago:
***

According to the Montgomery County Precinct 3 Constable’s Office, the statute of limitations in the case has passed.

Precinct 3 released a statement that read:

“Pastor Andy Savage sexual assault from 1998: We want to confirm with the media that this case has been brought to Montgomery County Constable’s Office Precinct 3 attention yesterday. A case was opened and the complainant in the case was interviewed by a Detective. During the process of collecting initial information from the complainant we have been working with the District Attorney’s office on possible charges in the case. Montgomery County District Attorney’s office has researched the law that would have applied in 1998 for the statute of limitations. The statute of limitations has passed and no charges would be able to be filed. Using the current statute we would have some possible options but we are limited to the law as it was at the time of the offense in 1998. As a result we are unable to investigate and seek justice to the full extent of what would we normally would in such a case.”
***

https://www.click2houston.com/news/pastor-accused-of-sexual-assault-asks-for-forgiveness-at-sundays-church-event

Is that statute of limitations concerning Savage’s illegal sex act or for the non-reporting as required by law for pastors Larry Cotton and Steve Bradley?

At least they have apparently confirmed that it is obvious a crime took place. (And for you Savage defenders, he has admitted sexual contact & therefor, a crime).

Here is a piece I wrote on the situation, trying to bring clarity to their redirection tactics.

https://kindnessleadsblog.wordpress.com/2018/01/10/casting-stones-or-turning-over-tables/

@ Cheryl:
Step 1. coercion to service lust – telling a girl to serve his manly privates
Step 2. coercion to falsify his reputation – telling the same girl to take it to the grave
Step 3. coercion for others, within days, to laud him as pastor leader (True Love Waits)
Step 4. coercion for congregation to believe it was a kiss (so testify then congregants)
Step 5. coercion for another church to hire him, as it was a one-off “incident”
etc.
On and on – one masquerade after another? When has the assailant come clean?

@ Jenn Riegel:
Jenn,
Your post is so very well written. Thank you.
Excerpt: “20 years later is not too late to speak and be heard, and it’s not too late to listen, when we finally have our mouths to ourselves and are brave enough to try to speak after having been silenced and spoken for. That big table, where there’s room enough but we haven’t been welcome, unless we’re serving coffee or recording minutes, it’s time to turn the table over. That table where decisions are made in our silence, it’s getting turned over.”

Max wrote:

If you enter “Highpoint Church Memphis The Gospel Coalition” on a Google search, you will be directed to TGC’s Church Directory … which is strangely a blank page today re: info on Highpoint.

I, for one, reported Highpoint Church to TGC. I wrote as my reason that they be removed: “Minimizing the rape of a teenager by one of its pastors.” They responded: “Thank you for getting in touch with us about one of the church listings on the Gospel Coalition Church Directory! We want to ensure that the information is up to date, so your corrections are greatly appreciated.

Thanks again! Grace be with you.
Alen Andrews”

raswhiting wrote:

That table where decisions are made in our silence, it’s getting turned over.”

Excellent.

@ JYJames:
I really am concerned that all the ‘he was just a young guy’ people are not seeing how completely out of line this would have been even on a date!

Which it was not. The lying alone is a problem.

It has taken me days to muster up the courage to watch the news clips on this. I understood the situation through this blog and Amy’s blog, but to hear Andy’s voice in that sham of a “confession” followed by applause was more than I could bear. I am utterly revolted. This was no confession driven by the Holy Spirit, it was a classic CYA move. He is not sorry. He is only sorry the truth has been revealed. Jules, you are my hero!

Mercy wrote:

seeker friendly

“Seeker-friendly” essentially means tell me what you want and we will serve it up … tell me which way you want to go and I’ll get out in front to lead. Seeker-friendly / culturally-relevant / cult of personality / Christianity Lite in America has darn near destroyed the church.

@ dee:
I said above, I think this is the new SPIN. As if he should be commended, which would be ridiculous even if it were true, which it is not.

He stopped AFTER he got what he wanted. He stopped in the ‘middle’ of fondling her, which is not the way they are portraying it.

These people…

Andrew wrote:

So now he is trying to make amends by contacting her and apologizing and offering what she needs.

Your thoughts here don’t take into account that Jules reached out to him via email and he did not reply. Had he replied with something reasonable, it sounds like she would not have gone to the press. What is your explanation for his lack of response?

Susan Jones wrote:

my husband was one of the people he confessed and asked forgiveness from

Confessing to a men’s accountability group doesn’t cut it. This was a crime. There are churchmen all across this nation confessing their ongoing sins to other men, but still don’t seem to get a grip on overcoming those sins and living more holy lives. Years later, there are remnants of accountability groups spawned by the Promise Keepers movement – they didn’t get it then and they don’t get it now.

@ Forrest:

It seems that this is very much the congregations mindset. “Well there are two sides to every story. And we’ve never met this woman. We know Andy and even though he has not offered any rebuttal and basically acknowledged that what this woman is saying is true we have picked his side because she doesn’t have a relationship with us.”

Very sad and stupid reasoning.

Lea wrote:

@ dee:
I said above, I think this is the new SPIN. As if he should be commended, which would be ridiculous even if it were true, which it is not.

He stopped AFTER he got what he wanted. He stopped in the ‘middle’ of fondling her, which is not the way they are portraying it.

These people…

Is he supposed to get bonus points for what is essentially, “I could’ve assaulted her longer and with more vigor, but I didn’t. Hooray for me!”

Lea wrote:

Andrew wrote:

If the statue of limitations have passed and in 1998 this was not a crime if the age of consent was 17

The statute of limitation have passed/this was not a crime???

Do you see the problem there?

How truly repentant was he if he didn’t confess until caught, definitely didn’t go to the police, excepted a happy go lucky going away party, taught ‘true love waits’ without shame, and kept it a secret at his next job? REALLY think about what you’re saying here.

I have heard others talk this way; they read this as a first-time offense, that he may have planned it and led up to it but then was horrified by the reality, and that’s why he threw himself into preaching about “biblical sexuality.” It was his own personal temptation, so he became known as the “sex preacher” or something like that. Kind of like the pastor who was famous for denouncing homosexuality, until he got caught using male escorts.

I don’t know if these people read it as such because they’ve fought similar temptation and managed to resist?

The commenters on Twitter who have seemed to maintain that this was “normal” left me shaken until I read beakerj’s excellent and very helpful discussion of what “healthy” should look like.

I’ve read the Highpoint member’s blog post which basically boiled down to “I believe Andy” and I think it really sets up what I think is the problem with the whole response to this.

Did Andy Savage take a girl to a remote location under false pretenses? Did he ask for oral sex after doing so? Did he do this while in a position of authority over her, and not as someone who was in any kind of emotional relationship with her? Did she have any reason to feel coerced into performing the act?

Jules says that he did, but to my knowledge Andy Savage has neither admitted to the details, nor has he denied that they happened. So sure I can believe Andy that he did something bad, but unless he admits how bad his action was, it doesn’t mean anything as a confession. Do the people who gave him a standing ovation believe that he abducted a girl that was under his pastoral care and unzipped his pants? Or do they just believe that they were together and things went a little too far? It’s a classic strategy in politics and elsewhere to confess to a less serious offense and try to make the story all about that, but we should have more integrity than that here.

What it comes down to for me, though, is let’s say we give Andy Savage the benefit of the doubt — that since that incident he has changed his ways, he has truly repented, and that he would never, ever, abuse his pastoral authority again. I still want to know why it is so important for him to continue as a professional pastor. I’m not smart enough to know whether someone should ever be restored to ministry after such an act, but I think if it were me I would want to choose a profession where I would not face such temptations again, at least for a period of time. Why is it considered a punishment to be an ordinary church member instead of one with authority?

(And yes, I know the answer is most likely money, but I would hope we could consider what is best for the flock rather than what is best for Andy Savage.)

@ dee:
Dee,
I am so relieved that you addressed Susan Jones. It threw me into such a PTSD #me too moment that I began writing a long comment. I typed and deleted, typed and deleted. Now I am crying with relief that I can leave it alone. As ugly and as triggering that this specific comment is, it is very important to show how these perpetrators are allowed to continue in power positions. If anyone lets comments like that alter their opinion of Jules, they must examine the comment. It says nothing about Jules. Nothing. How awful for this commenter to pass on what she claims that she “heard” third hand.

Cheryl wrote:

@ cindy treadway:
Did he not stop in the middle of the sexual incident?

Nope. He didn’t stop in the middle. He got a minor into his truck under false pretenses, took her to a secluded area, and got his jollies. Then, and only then, he stopped.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Nope. He didn’t stop in the middle.

He stopped only later after he was fondling her for a while. Maddening that people that gives him some sort of points. How pathetic do you have to be to think any of this is ok?

@ Muff Potter:
Not sure I understand question “How would a scientist handle it?”

Ed J. wrote:

which they do not refer to as Baptism; they call it “Going Public” FWIW

Weird. Never heard that!

@ Lea:

refugee wrote: The commenters on Twitter who have seemed to maintain that this was “normal” left me shaken until I read beakerj’s excellent and very helpful discussion of what “healthy” should look like.”

Leah wrote: “I really think her comment should be turned into an entire post. It was excellent.

This is NOT NORMAL. Even for unattached, sexually active, teenagers/young men. Girls should know they shouldn’t be treated that way.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

i think time spent in church culture makes a person more and more leery of “the world” — everyone outside the church bubble.

a lore has developed, about everyone outside the bubble — all the evil, hateful, immoral, unconscionable things that everyone is doing who is “not one of us”. the world.

it is entirely false. entirely untrue.

the most outstanding human beings are outside the church bubble.

men of all persuasions and on all points of the faith spectrum (from no faith to enthusiastic faith) in whatever deity know that actions such as Andy took are totally inappropriate and wrong and would never consider such a thing.

christians are totally messed up and confused where this is concerned.

(well, some christians, at least)

Link:
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2018/01/jules-woodson-sexual-assault-allegation.html

Lea wrote:

Andrew wrote:

his legacy alone is ruined because of 5-minutes that’s a HUGE consequence

Because he got CAUGHT. boo-hoo, your sins found you out. Is that what you think? Poor Andy? Yep.

If he had been open and honest from the beginning, his reputation would not have been ruined. Why is this so difficult to understand?

A lot of people’s reputations have been ruined in 5 minutes, like murderers who snuff out the life of another in a few minutes time. Like domestic violence that results in a phone call to 911. Like a drunk driver who loses control of their vehicle in a matter of seconds, resulting in the death of someone.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Baptism has nothing to do with “going public”.

The church here which is now SBC mega was calling baptist “going public” some 20+ years ago at least. I was there at a baptismal service and personally witnessed it. The baptizer asked the potential baptizee prior to immersion certain questions like ‘do you trust in Christ for….’ and the potential baptizee would answer in the affirmative. The pastor would then repeat these words, “Joe Smith, upon your profession of faith and in obedience to His command I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Buried with Him in baptism; raised to walk in newness of life.”

This was the format of the liturgy of baptism. The words ‘going public’ were used but not as a part of the liturgical pronouncement. Nobody, of course, thought of that as liturgy and certainly not as sacrament; but that is what it was-a liturgical pronouncement. And, in fact, it was indeed an act of ‘going public’ just like they said it was.

Later they tried using either a personally spoken or else previously filmed actual more complex ‘testimony’ of faith from the potential baptizee, and this was part of what they considered ‘going public.’ They gave that up after a while-as one might imagine they would.

In my observation it seems to me that some of the current practices (like some pool in the parking lot of recent fame) tend to be developed from some older ideas simply taken to perhaps an extreme as the surrounding culture morphs into, well, …into, well…each one pick a word as they see it. I prefer a whole list of words that ought to be at minimum cautionary-being careful how I say what here.

From Colorado. Sexual assault at a school. The reason it’s relevant is administration was warned and didn’t proceed back in 2013. They should have their teaching licensed stripped and by sued in civil court after they do prison for not heeding the warning

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/12/colorado-administrators-indicted-for-suspending-student-who-reported-sex-assault-by-teacher.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/12/colorado-administrators-indicted-for-suspending-student-who-reported-sex-assault-by-teacher.html

PS. The “I love” was screaming sarcasm.

I haven’t visited this blog for a few weeks, but today I saw an article about this on dailymail.com and I knew I had to come here and see what was going on. It always amazes me, and not in a good way, when churches respond like this. They like to talk about how warped society has become in values, and yet they then give this idiot a standing ovation. Yes, as Christians we are called to be forgiving, but this goes beyond that. This isn’t hate the sin/love the sinner, it comes dangerously close to we love this sinner so much that we celebrate his sin.

Bryan wrote:

God can bring good out of every situation. All should be praying for Jules healing. If Jules can someday forgive Andy this would be a great sign of God’s healing power to non-Christians and Christians alike. Please everyon continue to pray for Jules as she is obviously still hurting and needs to be loved by all Christians. With God all things are possible.

Others have already responded to your drive by copy and paste post on the other threads. I would like to point out the massive lack of forgiveness on the part of the Highpointers who are attacking Jules for outing their Savage. No forgiveness there! Instead of demonstrating true repentance, Savage and his worshippers continue to blame Jules.

Lea wrote:

This idea that you can’t bring up a true thing because it was a long time ago is bunk. I like Anne Lamont’s opinion here:

“Anne Lamott — ‘You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better”

Excellent point, Lea!

@ Muslin fka Deana Holmes:
I saw that you guys made the Post. Rock on!

I’m concerned about a part of Savages’ statement:

“There has never been another situation remotely similar in my life before or after that occurrence.”

Since he’s lying about everything else, does this mean that there are other victims that he abused out there?

Christa wrote:

I’m concerned about a part of Savages’ statement:
“There has never been another situation remotely similar in my life before or after that occurrence.”
Since he’s lying about everything else, does this mean that there are other victims that he abused out there?

I wondered about the possibility also.