First?

2

I really do like the example of your daughter – because it is fitting – and there seems to be a certain element that disdain elites (but only on some things)

Pretty scary stuff – but I do remember being taught at youth group meeting (way back) that there was no such thing as mental illness – and the speaker meant that literally. He said it all was unresolved sin.

The ramifications…….so if being abused has psychological impacts on someone – the solution is to learn how to submit more?

The idea that we don’t seek healing for relief is absurd……logically we then should rely only on faith healing and never see a doctor, take antibiotics or set broken bones.

Because of the strict line they draw between secular and their version of Special Revelation (which is not limited to the bible) does that mean if a person goes to an outside therapist are they automatically ex-communicated?
Reading this stuff is so creepy- it could have been written by David Koresh!

“In the multitude of counselors there is safety” (Proverbs 11:14) doesn’t apply here.

It’s no surprise that Nouthetic counseling and New Calvinism are running in parallel tracks. Both are characterized by control and manipulation of the sheep. Both put the Bible between the individual and the Holy Spirit. Both diminish the role of Jesus in bringing peace and healing to a hurting soul. Both should be avoided by believers.

Dee,

Your quotes from their documentation is some.of.the.scariest.stuff.I.have.read. People can be seriously harmed by submitting to this ridiculous “counseling.”

Daisy wrote:

We will also try to determine which of your personal sins caused the crack in your windshield and your tire to deflate.
(But we won’t actually repair either one.)

Hey. That last part reminds me of those commercials for the home security company or identity theft?? (One of the two.)

One commercial has a guy go visit his dentist, who tells him something like,
“I spotted a cavity. We’re all done here.”

And the guy is like, “But aren’t you going to fix my tooth?”

And the dentist is all, “No, silly, we don’t actually repair your messed up teeth, we just tell you that you have a problem with your teeth, see.”

Biblical counselors will point to your problem (which they will always insist is YOU, your personal sin), but they won’t actually do anything to fix the problem.

I googled for it. The commercials I am thinking of are for LifeLock. Here’s their dentist commercial (totally reminds me of Biblical Counseling):
Why Monitor a Problem? (Dentist commercial)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGDzxPsdi7w

Holy cow. This.

This is very similar to some quote I gave y’all over a year ago, from another site with Biblical Counseling stuff on it, where they actually ADMITTED to this:

Most counseling seeks to solve a person’s problem in order to bring relief. That is the prime goal.
In Christian counseling, however, the goal is to honor and glorify God, whether or not relief is obtained.

That part to me is one of THE most damaging to their cause.

If your counseling isn’t going to provide me with “relief” from whatever my problem is, then I’m not going to waste my time on it.

Like going to a dentist to get a sore tooth treated but the dentist refuses to pull it or give you pain meds. Defeats the whole purpose of seeing a doctor.

From some other page Dee quoted:

We do this with the firm resolve that counseling is fundamentally a theological task.

Depending on what the patient needs, no.

In the case of someone, such as biblical character Job, who was under a lot of stress, he needed counseling (in the form of emotional support from friends), but his “friends” added a theological bent to their “counseling” which only wounded Job even more.

And God did not like that sort of counseling for Job’s situation.

Have biblical counsellors cured add, adhd, schizophreia, bipolar disorders, PTSD, epilepsy, agoraphobia, dementia, Alzheimer’s………… ?
How about the counselors seek employment at Eddyvile Federal Penitentery and Western Kentucky State Hospital? Maybe they can work in the lock wards and help the psychopaths and sociopaths.
Maybe they should counsel Perry N, TullianT, etc?

OP:

…women will strive to avoid formally counseling men since this generally requires the task of teaching men with authority which is forbidden by Scripture.

I don’t consider counseling to be “teaching” someone. This is an over-reach of complementarianism.

On the other hand, their paradigm of counseling not being psychological, but being nothing but an off shoot of spirituality and quoting Bible verses at someone, does kind of fit THEIR weird idea of what it means to “counsel.”

Their rule there is so blatantly sexist.

I hope that any woman still in a church that supports this nonsense realizes how un-biblical and demeaning it is and drops complementarianism (as I did years ago).

sandy c wrote:

“Biblical counselors must reject any secular counseling ***intervention*** that is at odds with Scripture. Secular counseling therapies add nothing essential to the understanding and resolution of counseling problems, though secular institutions can provide assistance to biblical counselors when situations like hospitalization become necessary for extreme and urgent care.”
This really bothers me.

“Definition of intervention
plural interventions
: the act or an instance of intervening

the intervention of divine providence

: such as
a : the act of interfering with the outcome or course especially of a condition or process (as to prevent harm or *improve functioning)
*educational intervention
*surgical interventions
b : the interference of a country in the affairs of another country for the purpose of compelling it to do or forbear doing certain acts
c : an occurrence in which a person with a problem (such as a drug addiction) is confronted by a group (as of friends or family members) whose purpose is to compel the person to acknowledge and deal with the problem

stage/mount an intervention

Coaching colleagues and former players pleaded with him to reengage with the game, to no avail, until 1989, when a number of them prepared to stage an intervention. —Alexander Wolff”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intervention

“Biblical counselors must be committed to the priority of the church in accomplishing their counseling ministry.”
As a rule I would not go to a doctor who advertises their main motivation is the betterment of the institution they represent. In all their ‘biblical this’ and ‘biblical that’ I missed the part where they express enthusiasm for actually helping people.

“We affirm that Biblical truths are sufficient, when presented in the power of the Holy Spirit, to enable the Christian to love and obey God and to seek to please Him in every way.”
+++++++++

…..feels like brainwashing to me.

what does it meant to “love” God? describe how you “love” God? i think honest answers from a random group of christians would yield quite a variety of explanations and descriptions.

i usually don’t have touchy-feely affectionate feelings for God. but i have a feeling of respect for God. and we have a true friendship, with daily banter.

“We deny that Christians, who depend on their training in secular theories and practices rather than the Bible, are qualified to equip the saints, build up the Body of Christ, or to aid in the process of sanctification.”
+++++++++++

yeah, all they might do is help you overcome suicidal impulses, learn how to manage anxiety, figure out how to work on relationship problems so you can have mutually life-giving relationships, and other selfish things like that. why waste your time with that when we can sanctify you!

“to equip the saints, build up the Body of Christ, or to aid in the process of sanctification.”

such abstract term removed from cultural time and space by a power of thousands, & thrown around so matter-fact-ly. what do they even mean, anyway?

(don’t bother answering — i’ve heard it all a zillion times. i ask the rhetorical question because no christian understands them like they think they do)

“Here is a list of the ACBC board members. No women allowed on the board of ACBC, just like it says n the Bible….”
+++++++++++

…and then the list of 14 men.

the full frontal assault of that many men’s faces (usually in large scale photographs) representing the leadership for everyone. if churches only knew what that’s like for women. for any reasonable, thinking person, for that matter.

it is an advertisement for a boy’s club. an advertisement for “Unbalanced ‘R Us”. an advertisement for Myopia Central. With the tag line, “See How Unaware We Can Be”.

This is no doubt only the first of several short and concise comments on this subject and on what Dee has said and on what these people are doing.

I am beyond appalled and beyond infuriated at what these people are doing. Words cannot express my disgust.

So, first comment. Let me name this thing with some other names that it has been called. This ‘biblical’ counseling shares a commonality with:

re-education
mind control
sensitivity training
brain washing

Please feel free to add to that list if you want to.

And please bear with me; I have more to say. Later.

okrapod wrote:

No, no. The word should be bare. I feel bear-ish but the word I meant was bare.

You had it right the first time. To “bare” with someone has an entirely different meaning than what I think you intended.

okrapod wrote:

re-education
mind control
sensitivity training
brain washing

Please feel free to add to that list if you want to.

indoctrination

elastigirl wrote:

“…At our ACBC conferences you will learn

-How to help someone who feels trapped by a sin they cannot overcome”
++++++++++++++++++++

in my years at various churches and other christian events, i’ve heard all sorts of various and sundry things described as sin.

the sin of being independent
the sin of not being grateful ‘enough’
the sin of not trusting
the sin of being depressed
the sin of not having hope
the sin of feeling anger over being abused
the sin of not forgiving on command
…so many others

even if the word “sin” wasn’t specifically mentioned, the message was clear. “Lord, forgive us for x.” or shaming people over something.

all so paranoia-inducing.

as i’ve detoxed, the list of things i believe are legitimate sins has shrunk.

For those who have been subjected to this type of spiritual abuse for a long period, the de-programming can also take a long time. These abusers think they are doing God’s work but they are serving the wrong god.

“As of right now, I would not recommend that any woman who is been abused to receive this sort of biblical counseling.”

PLEASE DON’T TAKE YOUR TROUBLED CHILDREN OR TEENS to these people either. They are not trained to interact with children who have been abused either and will only do more harm.

Bridget wrote:

“Biblical counselors will also work to proper care for the physical body including recognizing the importance of professional medical care for medical problems.”

The section above seems to imply that the Biblical Counselors will let you know when you require medical attention . . . I suppose because they are qualified to diagnose when you need medical care? Insanity!!

That right there is my biggest concern with this whole business. If they think they have nothing to learn from the secular professionals, how are they ever going to know when somebody needs to see a doctor?

These people target some of the most vulnerable people.

Somebody in a comment here not too long ago brought up the issue or money. What about people who cannot afford ‘secular’ counseling? What are they supposed to do? IMO they may have financial problems which make them easy prey for these charlatans.

So, also, what about people who are afraid of God-the ‘god’ that reminds them of those who have harmed them in the past, the god of those who have rejected them if the past, the god who is distant and cold and disapproving and just lurking to exert judgment on them–and ‘dear god, no, not the children because of something they think they did–the god who takes it out on the children? Are these people apt to defy the purveyors of a false gospel from the pulpit and jump ship and seek anything ‘secular’?

I am not through yet.

Biblical counseling, as described on this post, makes a mockery of scripture itself by demanding of scripture something which was never promised by scripture. When scripture then fails to deliver something which we were never told to expect from scripture by scripture then the next step for some would be to reject scripture entirely. That would be a reasonable conclusion, and it would be wrong. Thanks to these people’s abuse of scripture it is entirely possible that increasing numbers of people would reject the whole idea that scripture might be even worthwhile at all for anything.

Max wrote:

“For a number of reasons, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has determined that Christian psychology is not compatible with the version of biblical counseling that they want to promote in their counseling department.” http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/september-web-only/johnson-southern-biblical-counseling-christian-psychology.html

“Lambert, who has been on the faculty since 2006, wrote in a blog post last Monday that it “would never occur to me to try to force, cajole, or blackmail [Mohler] into anything.” He also apologized for his “unkind and unloving” speech disparaging Johnson’s approach to counseling at an ACBC conference last year, which the online petition pointed to as evidence of Lambert’s animus toward Johnson.

In the clip, Lambert reads from Johnson’s work and calls his philosophy “dangerous,” “slander,” “corrupt,” and a “mockery of God’s Word.” He clarified, in the wake of the petition, that though it was for the sake of argument, it was a sinful move on his part.”

sandy c wrote:

“For a number of reasons, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has determined that Christian psychology is not compatible with the version of biblical counseling that they want to promote in their counseling department.” http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/september-web-only/johnson-southern-biblical-counseling-christian-psychology.html

“Many evangelical seminaries and universities—like George Fox—go even further with their incorporation of psychology into a Christian worldview; their curricula brings Christian teaching and psychology together, embracing an “integration” stance.”

sandy c wrote:

“For a number of reasons, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has determined that Christian psychology is not compatible with the version of biblical counseling that they want to promote in their counseling department.” http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/september-web-only/johnson-southern-biblical-counseling-christian-psychology.html

“Many evangelical seminaries and universities—like George Fox—go even further with their incorporation of psychology into a Christian worldview; their curricula brings Christian teaching and psychology together, embracing an “integration” stance.”sandy c wrote:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/september-web-only/johnson-southern-biblical-counseling-christian-psychology.html

“Many evangelical seminaries and universities—like George Fox—go even further with their incorporation of psychology into a Christian worldview; their curricula brings Christian teaching and psychology together, embracing an “integration” stance.”

“I respect and have learned from many in the biblical counseling camp. Their perspective is laudable and needed,” wrote Boyce alum Dustin Messer in response to Johnson’s news. “But even if one thinks Dr. Johnson’s approach to counseling is anemic or flawed, he’s no enemy of the faith…. My goodness, Dr. Johnson’s theology is about as orthodox and mainstream as it gets in evangelicalism.”

Article on a study lifeway did on church response

http://blog.lifeway.com/newsroom/2017/09/29/lifeway-research-suicide-remains-a-taboo-topic-at-churches/
9/29/17 “NASHVILLE, Tenn.—Suicide remains a taboo subject in many Protestant churches, despite the best efforts of pastors, according to a new study from LifeWay Research.

Eight in 10 Protestant senior pastors believe their church is equipped to intervene with someone who is threatening suicide.

Yet few people turn to the church for help before taking their own lives, according to their churchgoing friends and family. Only 4 percent of churchgoers who have lost a close friend or family member to suicide say church leaders were aware of their loved one’s struggles.
Despite their best intentions, churches don’t always know how to help those facing mental health struggles,” said Scott McConnell, executive director of LifeWay Research.”
More than half (55 percent) of churchgoers say people in their community are more likely to gossip about a suicide than to help a victim’s family. And few churchgoers say their church takes specific steps to address suicide or has resources to assist those experiencing a mental health crisis.”

What this lifeway study found that is eye opening is the difference between how pastors see things and how pew sitters see things!

http://blog.lifeway.com/newsroom/2017/09/29/lifeway-research-suicide-remains-a-taboo-topic-at-churches/

51 percent of pastors vs. 16 percent of churchgoers say their church has a list of mental health professionals who can treat those considering suicide.
46 percent of pastors vs. 12 percent of churchgoers say their church regularly addresses mental illness.
36 percent of pastors vs. 22 percent of churchgoers say their church has a lay counseling ministry.
29 percent of pastors vs. 23 percent of churchgoers say their church has a trained counselor on staff.
18 percent of pastors vs. 12 percent of churchgoers say their church has a crisis response team.

LifeWay’s study found three-quarters (76 percent) of churchgoers say suicide is a problem that needs to be addressed in their community. About a third (32 percent) say a close acquaintance or family member has died by suicide.

Those churchgoers personally affected by suicide were asked questions about the most recent person they know who has died by suicide. Forty-two percent said they lost a family member, and 37 percent lost a friend. Others lost a co-worker (6 percent), social acquaintance (5 percent), fellow church member (2 percent) or other loved one (8 percent).

About a third of these suicide victims (35 percent) attended church at least monthly during the months prior to death, according to their friends and family. Yet few of those friends and family say church members (4 percent) or church leaders (4 percent) knew of their loved one’s struggles.”

@ Max:
@ Jack:

There was a time and place when and where individuals performed various functions in the “Body” under the leadership of the Spirit. There was a great deal of comfort and encouragement freely available without the requirement of formal allegiance to the system or it’s leaders. The encourages and encourages were considered equal before God; each with the ability to receive and give a word of wisdom. The the wolves have been separating the sheep from one another for a long time. The members of the “Body” are no longer encouraged in their natural function, but are treated as parts in a mechanical system. The wolves are considered the only ones with the ability to maintain and repair the parts or the system.

In this environment, the Bible has become a two dimensional manual where meaning can only be deciphered accurately by the technical analysis of the pseudo-learned. Mutual edification has been replaced with a fee for service system. This system has distorted the true nature of Christ expressed through the body and repaired the veil between God and man.

If the extreme calvinistic view of predestination and no free will is used then any “failures” or suicides as a result of their “minostry” can just be written off by them as ‘they were just unrepentant sinners- we did all we could, they werent ‘chosen’ and we did nothing wrong”
(I saw my typo of ministry but left it because this ministry is closer to monstrosity in my opinion.)

As more churches adopt this type of ministry the rate of depression and suiicide is just going to climb. And as Okrapod pointed out those that manage to escape these churches will probably have the view that scripture is meaningless and if anyone tries to talk about sin they may be viewed as raving lunatics. Its not just sad its anti Christ.

What Happened wrote:

This system has distorted the true nature of Christ expressed through the body and repaired the veil between God and man.

Your whole post is spot on, this last was their motive and now no one can go to God except thru them according to their false doctrine. Or should i say ‘indoctrination’

This Mohler guy seems to have learned alot in how to deal with any that oppose him, perhaps he is following the model practiced and perfected during the sovereign grace sin coverup?

Bunny wrote:

I would rename these counselors “Job’s Counselors.”

Because all I need to do is look in the book of Job to know how God feels about their methods.

Yes! Maybe God will suddenly show up in a really loud way and rebuke them and defend all of His Job’s!

@ okrapod:
Round of applause for your thoughts here, so helpful.

I can attest to this kind of counseling being destructive. My husband and I had about 8 sessions with one of the men listed on the ACBC board. It was an emotional/spiritual abuse situation. The counselor literally laughed at me for having been afraid of my husband. He seemed to treat me as if I were supposed to accept what he said as the diagnosis (I just need to forgive). He didn’t seem to like me questioning him because I was a woman either, supposed to be under submission. “Authority” is huge to this group, in my opinion.

sandy c wrote:

I used to pray alot for my kids to start going to church but now i am terrified that they might!

Would you freak just as bad if they went Catholic?
If I still had kids at home, I’d rather they went to St. Matthew’s (Catholic) than Calvary Chapel any day of the week and six-ways-to-Sunday.

Bridget wrote:

Your quotes from their documentation is some.of.the.scariest.stuff.I.have.read. People can be seriously harmed by submitting to this ridiculous “counseling.”

If money is indeed changing hands, they’ve crossed the Rubicon, and it’s just a matter of time before there’s a court battle over whether or not they’re practicing medicine without a license.

Max wrote:

SBTS has not been kind to other faculty over the years. Al Mohler forced several professors out when he became SBTS President because they would not sign the Abstract of Principles (a reformed statement of faith) – many had served the seminary faithfully for years. Women faculty at Southern at the time were also forced to resign (e.g., Molly Marshall and Diana Garland). Some Biblical counselor needs to work on Dr. Mohler.

The same thing happened at SEBTS after Mohler had Akin put in place.

Dang it. There is a LOT of value to secular research regarding counseling and this just throws all that away with a rather arrogant us/them attitude. I’ll take Lubdy Bancroft on abuse any day over John Piper. If a woman came to one of these counselors about her husband’s abuse they would probably tell him…which can put her in danger. There’s a true arrogance here that has a spiritual guise. Why are all problems based in sin????

Abigail wrote:

If a woman came to one of these counselors about her husband’s abuse …

“If it’s not requiring her to sin, but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church” (John Piper)

Please provide chapter and verse for that Dr. Piper.

Run a mile from this. I thank God tat for over 50 years my husband and I have journeyed arm in arm, mutually helping and supporting each other. On one occasion I needed counselling on account of a ‘fool’ who was a domineering member of my family. I carefully researched the credentials and the history of the person I chose. She, together with the support and help of my husband, gave me excellent advice and the tools to put her adviceinto practice. These complementarian ‘counselors” as can be seen from John Piper’s appalling comments, do untold damage, and cause many to turn from the faith.

Ken G wrote:

I think biblical counseling emphasizes the personal responsibility aspect while acknowledging there may have been sins committed against us.

Secular counseling emphasizes personal responsibility as well. You are misinformed if you think it doesn’t, or if you think it emphasizes victimhood. Secular counseling also recognized reasons for mental disorders and harmful behaviors other than the often simplistic biblical counseling response of “sin.”

Max wrote:

I’m not opposed to using the Bible, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, to speak words of hope and life to a hurting soul. Any pastor worth his ordination should be doing this all the time. It’s when the Bible is misused to control, intimidate, manipulate, and indoctrinate that get’s me going. New Calvinism and its Nouthetic stepchild do this.

What really irks me is that they portray it as “using the Bible, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, to speak words of hope and life to a hurting soul.” and use scriptures so its not arguable that they arent following the bible….but then i remembered the devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness using scripture also…just for a different end

@ dee:

full frontal assault image of lots of men who decide things for everyone. there were no qualified women? (well, you are qualified by having a donger)

i really thought common sense was making a come-back.

maybe in a few decades the delayed christian church will catch up.

Ken G wrote:

I recall taking a defensive driver course which taught that road rage is the result of our reaction to what the other driver did. The emphasis was that the other driver doesn’t control you regardless of how you may have been provoked. We have to take responsibility for our own behavior or actions. I agree, and also acknowledge it is difficult to implement 100% of the time. I think addiction is similar; regardless of the sins committed against us we ultimately are responsible for our behavior. I think biblical counseling emphasizes the personal responsibility aspect while acknowledging there may have been sins committed against us.

Sadly, it is not just the sins committed against us. Take depression as an example: some people medicate with substance addiction. This personal responsibility line would just heap shame on the depressed instead of encouraging them to find help that would address the brain-hormone imbalance.

I am all for taking personal responsibility. However, the trick is what that actually looks like in a given situation. Treating all addictions as simply personal responsibility failures/sins is too blunt an instrument, IMO. It is more complicated than that.

Biblical counselors promise do their best when the counseling is discharged faithfully, discharged righteously, discharged biblically. But if they fall short of these goals, perhaps they can give a money back guarantee. For example.

(At A.C.B.C. , we believe that we have the best quality counseling out there. We’ve designed and tested our biblical counseling to exceed the general revelation counseling in taste and quality. We’re so confident in our services that every counselee in our network is backed by our unbeatable Double Guarantee. Your money back and a free session with the person of your choosing)

Christian learn to read your own bible. Many men and women died so that you can read scripture in your own language. Don’t delegate your inheritance to another.

@ dee:

“I heard about this incident and will add it to my list of things to investigate. My goal is to thoroughly wok my way through this stuff. Thank you.”
+++++++++++++++++

you’re a star, dee.

I’ve spent the last few days looking into Accelerated Christian Education and I stumbled across their catalogue that advertises their advanced college curriculum. Students can elect to teach themselves Biblical Counseling using “Competent to Counsel” and “The Christian Counselor’s Manual” as textbooks in addition to their standard self-taught PACE material. That can’t be a good combination.
I just read “Astrophysics for People in a Hurry” and I’m sure that doesn’t qualify me to be an Astrophysicist; why people think that reading a few books on Biblical Counseling makes them counselors is a mystery to me. If it only worked that way – everybody would all be pastors.

@ elastigirl:

““to equip the saints, build up the Body of Christ, or to aid in the process of sanctification.”

such abstract term removed from cultural time and space by a power of thousands, & thrown around so matter-fact-ly. what do they even mean, anyway?”
+++++++++++++++++

upon further mathematical thought by a non-math person, i suppose it’s by a power of 10s.

(square root of 2000 years is 44 or so years)

thousands sounds much better, though.

sandy c wrote:

What really irks me is that they portray it as “using the Bible, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, to speak words of hope and life to a hurting soul.”

New Calvinist Biblical counselors would not depend on the Holy Spirit – they have relegated Him to the back pew. Their interpretation of Scripture supersedes leading by the Spirit.

One of the most productive counseling interactions I had as a pastor was with a couple (not from our church) that came asking to speak to someone with gray hair. (seriously)

elastigirl wrote:

such abstract term removed from cultural time and space by a power of thousands, & thrown around so matter-fact-ly. what do they even mean, anyway?”

You’re not sposeta’ be askin’ questions like that.
Just be a good bobble head and go along.

The definition of COUNSELING per a very prominent church in California: “Coming alongside God’s people to assist them in applying the preaching of God’s Word through the work of the Holy Spirit.”

Can you find the most interesting words in this definition? It’s “THE PREACHING OF” God’s Word. I was very surprised at this definition. I believe/hope that they would see a mountain of difference those three words make. Source: https://www.gracechurch.org/counseling

Thersites wrote:

“Biblical counselors must be committed to the priority of the church in accomplishing their counseling ministry.”
As a rule I would not go to a doctor who advertises their main motivation is the betterment of the institution they represent. In all their ‘biblical this’ and ‘biblical that’ I missed the part where they express enthusiasm for actually helping people.

Dee addressed this in the OP, and I commented on it above.

They even expressly state in their literature Dee quoted they have no interest in bringing you “relief,” but just want to bring glory to God, or whatever spiritual gobbeldy-gook phrasing they used.

Hence, my reason for linking to the “LifeLock” commercial on You Tube in a post last night.

The commercial where the guy guys into for a dental checkup, only to be told,
“You have a bad cavity!,” and they patient says, “Aren’t you going to fix it?,” and the guy replies, “No, I’m just a dental monitor, not a dentist.”

I have no idea what motivates someone to think it’s a genius idea of merely pointing out a problem in matters of mental or physical health but taking pride in not actually doing anything to resolve the problem.

okrapod wrote:

That would be because, I suppose, that failure glorifies God????????

I guess from their strange, warped perspective, since the goal is not to “heal” the person, that it’s not failure?

They seem very, very weirdly preoccupied with the spiritual side of things, even to the detriment to the well being of the person seeing them for counseling.

They think it’s more important you, the patient (client?), realize what a supposed, filthy, sinning, maggot, detestable- in- the- sight- of- God puke face you are, than to help you in concrete ways with your issues (depression, PTSD, whatever).

As long as you know you’re a “worm of the dirt” before God, they would likely consider that a success. Sin and getting people to dwell on their sin seems to be the big goal with these guys.

Bridget wrote:

(counseling quote):
“In Christian counseling, however, the goal is to honor and glorify God, whether or not relief is obtained.”

Bridget’s comment:
I don’t recall Jesus saying any such things to people who came to him for comfort and healing!
This statement reads like a disclaimer to a Vudu session.

Most excellent point.

Off the top of my head, all the examples that come to my mind of sick people approaching Jesus with some kind of problem or illness Jesus would heal them.

Jesus didn’t always bring up sin or point to personal sins of the troubled people who came to him.

Jesus was interested in bringing relief to people and correcting whatever people’s maladies were. If you were blind, he’d restore your sight. If you had a skin disease, he’d heal that.

Jesus didn’t usually lecture, “sin shame,” or give theology lectures to those who came to him, unlike the biblical counselors.

Jesus was interested in results and meeting people’s felt needs, not just interested in their spiritual status or spiritual health.

The ACBC certification- that’s the one with the duck embossed on it, isn’t it?

dee wrote:

OK,KenG. Let’s go with me. I have anxiety due to the fact my 3 year old daughter has a malignant brain tumor and most likely will not survive.
Why don’t you elucidate:
1. How I am not assuming personal responsibility
2. How I am sinning
And why in the world do you think that secular and Christian psychology does NOT emphasize personal responsibility? Who told you that?

The personal responsibility aspect of addiction is very important just like the personal responsibility aspect of AIDS prevention is very important. Of course there can be extenuating circumstances in addiction, as mentioned in other comments, as well as in AIDS prevention such as a tainted transfusion. Biblical counseling seems to emphasize the personal responsibility aspect, but it also needs to recognize the possibility of extenuating circumstances and not ignore them and pretend they don’t exist.

Let me conclude by saying there can be pros and cons to both as I will explain. Many years ago I took a young Christian woman to see a psychiatrist because she was tormented by some type of self-loathing emotional problem. She concluded the psychiatrist was of no help and then sought some church (biblical) counseling. The church counseling worked, she was no longer tormented, got married, had a baby daughter and, as far as I know, lived happily ever after. On the flip side, about a year ago the restaurant I frequent had an incident which required an ambulance. The waitress (usually takes my order) explained that a waitress was found passed out in a back area, but the hospital was able to revive her and she is now O.K. It was due to an adverse prescription drug reaction. The waitress then said that was the official explanation, but not what really happened. What really happened was the waitress tried committing suicide and she was that waitress. She also mentioned that she went to church with her mother for help and was told to leave and clean herself up (change her behavior). I suggested she return to the hospital that treated her and ask for counseling help there. I don’t know whether she did because she quit the waitress job. These are two situations with two different outcomes involving churches.

Bridget wrote:

“As of right now, I would not recommend that any woman who is been abused to receive this sort of biblical counseling.”

PLEASE DON’T TAKE YOUR TROUBLED CHILDREN OR TEENS to these people either. They are not trained to interact with children who have been abused either and will only do more harm.

There training says everyone in the pews should be doing it. This has spread like a cancer through alot of churches

dee wrote:

@ Daisy:
For many in this movement, depression will be treated as a *sin* because you are not *rejoicing the Lord always.* See, easy peasy!

And when someone who is depressed is then attacked by those they came to for help, they feel 10 times worse. I wonder how many suicides have been caused by this type of *counselling*? At the very least it could be a contributory factor.

“As of right now, I would not recommend that any woman who is been abused to receive this sort of biblical counseling.”

I will say AMEN to that. My daughter endured 9 years of this type of counseling while in an abusive marriage. She was very depressed… because the church offered her NO hope at all. The only way out was for one of them to die… and she figured it would have to be her. Her health did deteriorate to the point where she would have died if she hadn’t finally defied the church and left the marriage (with our support).

At one point I loaned the book “Why does he do that?” by Lundy Bancroft to the church counselor. I was naive enough to think her bad counsel was only ignorance (of the tactics of abuse) and that if she read the book it would help her see things differently. Well, she refused to read it. And our daughter was then told that all her reading materials had to be approved by the church before she could read anything. True story, that.

Ken G wrote:

The personal responsibility aspect of addiction is very important just like the personal responsibility aspect of AIDS prevention is very important.

If you are talking about ‘aids prevention’ with someone who is already hiv positive you are doing nothing useful. What is your purpose at that point??? You certainly aren’t helping them.

I would say addition is complicated and there might be something at the root of it that needs looking at toove but again this all gets to your actual goals.

In these situations shouldn’t our goal be to actually help people work through something? Beating them up for what they didn’t in the past doesn’t help, and probably is actively harmful. The biggest issue in a lot of ways with this dumb ‘biblical’ counseling is that they dont seem to actually want to help anyone get better. That is NOT their goal and they are honest enough to put it in the literature. The purpose of counseling is not preaching! Sheesh.

I just finished another blog post on my own blog featuring an article I saw in the W.S.J. about anxiety disorders in children.

Pertinent to this TWW post about biblical counseling is how the article mentions that for some people, anxiety has a biological aspect.

That is, not everyone with anxiety is choosing to have it. It’s not a sin. It’s not due to personal sin, failing, or weakness.

Here’s part of what the article said:

Genetics play a stronger role. Studies of twins have found that genes are responsible for 30% to 40% of the variation in the individual risk for anxiety disorders.

The article (I also have it on my Daisy blog):
The Right Way for Parents to Help Anxious Children
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-right-way-for-parents-to-help-anxious-children-1512755970

Some of the treatments brought up in the article included anti-depressants, C.B.T., and teaching the parents how to handle the anxiety in their kids. (How parents deal with their child’s anxiety can either make the anxiety better or worse.)

So, the article, which quotes a bunch of psychiatrists, studies, etc., says treatment that works for some may consist of C.B.T., medications, etc., and not the biblical counseling approach of Bible reading, running down an inventory of your sins, etc.

Mike wrote:

The ramifications…….so if being abused has psychological impacts on someone – the solution is to learn how to submit more?

Makes sense — IF YOU’RE AN ABUSER.

JeffT wrote:

The ACBC certification- that’s the one with the duck embossed on it, isn’t it?

Complete with anti-mainstream psychology propaganda worthy of Scientology.

drstevej wrote:

One of the most productive counseling interactions I had as a pastor was with a couple (not from our church) that came asking to speak to someone with gray hair. (seriously)

They had a point.
Maybe they’d experienced one Twentysomething Elder(TM) too many.

Divorce Minister wrote:

I remember reading a book by Ed Welch about addictions. He contended that the issue really is just idolatry, period.

A contention worthy of a Taliban Mullah.

sandy c wrote:

As more churches adopt this type of ministry the rate of depression and suiicide is just going to climb. And as Okrapod pointed out those that manage to escape these churches will probably have the view that scripture is meaningless and if anyone tries to talk about sin they may be viewed as raving lunatics. Its not just sad its anti Christ.

“NOWHERE DO WE CORRUPT SO EFFECTIVELY AS AT THE VERY FOOT OF THE ENEMY’S ALTAR!”
— Screwtape

A few years ago, I stumbled across a book online, or a mention of it.

The book explains how and why much of Christian counseling (the type Dee is discussing in the OP) is so dangerous.

In at least one chapter of the book,the author gets into how counseling actually puts women at risk, especially women in abusive marriages, since most of these counselors blame the woman for the abuse, tell her to stay and submit, etc.

I found it! I had forgotten its title, but I found it again:
The Failure of Evangelical Mental Health Care: Treatments That Harm Women, LGBT Persons and the Mentally Ill by John Weaver
https://books.google.com/books?id=PeaeoAEACAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false

I haven’t read it myself, but someone on another site I read years ago said it’s pretty good.

@ dee:
The counselor was licensed by the State and educated as well as trained in the profession by a secular university, Ph.D. No mention of God et al. No conflict either. Behavioral science.

“Psychology is the science of behavior and mind, embracing all aspects of conscious and unconscious experience as well as thought. It is an academic discipline and a social science which seeks to understand individuals and groups by establishing general principles and researching specific cases.

“… Psychologists attempt to understand the role of mental functions in individual and social behavior, while also exploring the physiological and biological processes that underlie cognitive functions and behaviors.

“Psychologists explore behavior and mental processes, including perception, cognition, attention, emotion (affect), intelligence, phenomenology, motivation (conation), brain functioning, and personality. This extends to interaction between people, such as interpersonal relationships, including psychological resilience, family resilience, and other areas.” – wikipedia

“Every Christian is a counselor. They might not want the work, and they might not be any good at it, but every Christian is a counselor.”

And then: “Biblical counselors must help their counselees to submit to the authority of the church. … These shepherds have real spiritual authority that must be followed when it is discharged biblically.”

So in the first case, we have good and bad counselors. In the second, there’s “real spiritual authority” of churches and their shepherds, who they say are to be followed with a qualifier — when said authority is discharged biblically.

Who exactly is the arbiter of who is a good counselor in this scenario, as well as a good “shepherd”? Sounds like a lot of subjectivity, yet there’s this push for all of these counselees to be under authority. It certainly sounds like it’s up to the call of the counselor, which may be bad or downright dangerous if the counselee is inclined to simply obey authority (or the appearance of it) for what may be bad advice, biblically and otherwise.

Max wrote:

“In the multitude of counselors there is safety” (Proverbs 11:14) doesn’t apply here.
It’s no surprise that Nouthetic counseling and New Calvinism are running in parallel tracks. Both are characterized by control and manipulation of the sheep. Both put the Bible between the individual and the Holy Spirit. Both diminish the role of Jesus in bringing peace and healing to a hurting soul. Both should be avoided by believers.

It’s when a flawed interpretation of the Bible — often complete with Pharisee-riffic hedges — comes between that the alarm bells should go off.

Divorce Minister wrote:

I remember reading a book by Ed Welch about addictions.

I read one of his books once two and mentioned it on this blog a couple of years ago. It was a different book.

I found it very victim-blaming towards sexual assault victims and towards anyone who has anxiety. His book was not the least bit helpful

Daisy wrote:

The Failure of Evangelical Mental Health Care: Treatments That Harm Women, LGBT Persons and the Mentally Ill by John Weaver

I’m glancing over the chapter on “Patriarchal Counseling” and it mentions the abuses at New Bethany and Sovereign Grace Ministries.

It also discussed the Quiverfull movement.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

GSD [Getting Stuff Done]

GSD, are you any relation to TCB? (Taking Care of Business)? :oD

Patti wrote:

I know some people who won’t even go to dentists, doctors, or mechanics, unless they have determined that they are “fine Christian folk.” Whatever!

Oh, eye roll. I had dental work not that long ago, and I never asked my new dentist’s religious beliefs were, if he even believed in a deity, nor did it ever cross my mind.

I researched a ton of dentists in my area and went by customer reviews and stuff like that.

To this day, I can’t tell you what my dentist’s religious views are, nor do I care. He was friendly, he did a great job on my teeth, and his prices were the least expensive in my area.

His staff was nice too, and no, I don’t know or care what their religious views are.

My dentist can be an atheist or Buddhist for all I care.

@ Ken G:
Please consider a few things. 1 you are male and BCM has been claimed to be abusive for women by lots of women, but men like typically like it alot.
One of the biggest problems pointed out is that they refuse to have outside interference and provide no documentation to show how effective or inaffective it is, no numbers showing how many suicides, abused women and children, domestic violence victims, or how many children raised in environments like that grow up and become heroin addicts right in your neighborhood, foolishly squandering your tax dollars and stealing your t.v.s
Also consider the contrasting attitudes of the 2 other guys on crosses the day Jesus died for you.
I wonder if you had been Jesus if you would have said, sorry you didnt take personal responsibility and deserve your cross so no paradise for you.

Muff Potter wrote:

Daisy wrote:

I wonder what they make of Jesus’ reaction at the tomb of Lazarus: “Jesus wept.”

Hopefully they see that Jesus was fully human and humans cry.

If crying was sinful then God wouldnt have made tears! A Psychiatrist once advised me that its the people that dont express emotions you have to worry about.

Daisy wrote:

I often see Christians talking smack about experience. …
The Pharisees seemed to prefer studying and thinking about God, vs. actually getting off their duffs and helping people where they were.

1 John 1:1-4 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.”

Good enough for the writers of the Gospels (seen, heard, touched), good enough for me.

Excellent point, Daisy.

dee wrote:

I heard about this incident and will add it to my list of things to investigate. My goal is to thoroughly wok my way through this stuff. Thank you.

I mentioned that very same news story on my Daisy blog, and I believe Seneca Griggs showed up under one of his other screen names to defend J-Mac on that story.

Divorce Minister wrote:

I am all for taking personal responsibility. However, the trick is what that actually looks like in a given situation. Treating all addictions as simply personal responsibility failures/sins is too blunt an instrument, IMO. It is more complicated than that.

I also don’t know if shaming would work in such cases.

When it comes to over eating, some family members will shame the overweight person, or, that person gets ridiculed at school (if a kid) by their peers for their weight.

They then turn to food to relieve that pain. The shaming and pressure causes them to turn to the food even more.

dee wrote:

And why in the world do you think that secular and Christian psychology does NOT emphasize personal responsibility? Who told you that?

Maybe the disconnect is that some secular mental health practitioners have classified some behaviors as illness that “biblical counselors” and a lot of evangelicals consider sin.

I think evangelicals, Christian fundamentalists, and biblical counselors are freaked out or worried that the secular culture will tell every one they are all victims, they’re not responsible for their own actions, and it will nullify or silence the concept of sin.

It’s kind of sort of like how gender complementarians get in a tizzy, so concerned that the USA is no longer 1952 with pink womanhood and clear cut blue manhood that they expend a lot of effort and time wringing their hands in worry over secular, liberal feminism

-and blaming feminism for every thing wrong in culture including every thing from when the milk in their fridge goes sour to any time they get a paper cut.

All this is a moot point! ChatBots are taking over therapy, LOL!

I just now found out about WoeBot on the TV news.

I did this blog post about it:
WoeBot, The Chatbot Therapist, Will See You Now – The Rise of Chatbot Therapy
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/%E2%80%A2-woebot-the-chatbot-therapist-will-see-you-now-the-rise-of-chatbot-therapy/

The news sites and show didn’t say if these Chat-Bots are Christians who believe in male leadership, female submission, and the sufficiency of Scripture.

Avid Reader wrote:

Wonder why God would take the time to mention that in the Bible if all secular knowledge is useless?
(Grin—sarcasm alert :))

I am reminded of this:

“The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.
– Jesus (Luke 16:8)

Avid Reader wrote:

If you ever have the chance to visit drug rehab programs, there’s plenty of talk there about taking personal responsibility.

I’d also add that being ‘cognizant of’ and ‘doing something about it’ are two different things.

I’ve had anxiety since childhood. I’m aware I have it and should try to do something to combat it, but that’s easier said than done.

Knowing you have a problem and being able to fight it are sometimes two different things.

Ken G wrote:

she was tormented by some type of self-loathing emotional problem.

She concluded the psychiatrist was of no help and then sought some church (biblical) counseling.

The church counseling worked, she was no longer tormented, got married, had a baby daughter and, as far as I know, lived happily ever after

This brings to my mind all the testimonies I see on Christian TV. Usually, in these interviews, either the adults they interview did not become a Christian until later in life, or were “back slidden.”

Their stories are always the same.

They lived a life of drug addiction, robbing people, debauchery, etc. and so on, but the moment they “found Jesus” (or re- committed to Jesus) and started helping other people all the time, they say they found peace, meaning in life and all that jazz.

That’s great and what all, but I cannot relate to that.

I was a Christian from the time I was a kid and into adulthood, and I can’t say as though knowing Jesus brought me inner peace or purpose in life, nor did helping people and putting them first bring me purpose or peace.

I guess what works for some doesn’t work for all.

Mary27 wrote:

Well, she refused to read it. And our daughter was then told that all her reading materials had to be approved by the church before she could read anything. True story, that.

Wow.

The part about not reading it reminds me of how in his review of Ruth Tucker’s book about the part complementarianism played in her martial abuse, Tim Challies basically told his readers not to read her book.

People are adults and can and should be allowed to read whatever book they want and make up their own minds.

You don’t have to agree with something just because you read it. You can use critical thinking to pick apart the content.

Lea wrote:

I would say addition is complicated

So is long division, which is why I use a calculator. 🙂
(Kidding. I know you meant addiction.)

Daisy wrote:

to that trailer part

trailer PARK

Daisy wrote:

I read one of his books once two

“too” not “two”

sandy c wrote:

Also consider the contrasting attitudes of the 2 other guys on crosses the day Jesus died for you.

Luke 18:9-14
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18:9-14

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed:
‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers— or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Forrest wrote:

And when someone who is depressed is then attacked by those they came to for help, they feel 10 times worse. I wonder how many suicides have been caused by this type of *counselling*? At the very least it could be a contributory factor.

As a retired soldiers wife, and as a person who has many friends and acquaintances who are/were military, I would strongly advise military people AGAINST “biblical” counseling for PTSD. I am convinced that “biblical” counseling would be destructive.

Muff Potter wrote:

don’t do the kinds of things to others that they wouldn’t want done to themselves.

Oh, thanks for clarification!
My kids are actually into living lives where they”don’t do the kinds of things to others that they wouldn’t want done to themselves.” I have gay friends and vehemently not gay friends on facebook and the conversation going around was about the right to not sell cakes again. One point made was if christians insist on this and change anti discrimination laws then christians may go to grocery stores and be told they cant buy bread because they might use it in one of their ceremonies and that could be against the stores religious views! Sometimes i think there is more wisdom outside of church than inside!! At least more do unto others as you want them to do to you! 🙂

Divorce Minister wrote:

Using heroin is wrong. True. But that is not solved by telling a true heroin addict it is wrong. They need effective help to get free of the chemical bondage driving the addiction. What their personal responsibility looks like is seeking real help to stop.

And that is an issue every treatment center brings up- there is not enough funding. Most addicts i have helped have had a 2-3 month wait to get into treatment. If they are still alive then they sometimes forget they even wanted to go.
I would also mention that every AA group i have attended puts the responsibility squarely on the addict/alcoholic and when a person starts sharing about what everyone did to make him have to drink it is often met with “poor me, poor me, pour me another one! If you want to drink go drink, if you want to get sober clean up your own side of the street” thats secular counselling though…

What happens when you play ACBC backwards?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Just substitute “Dianetics” for “Scripture” and “Dianetic Auditing” for “Biblical Counseling”…
Would it make any difference?
(Other than one using a Bible and the other an Elron Hubbard E-Meter?)

I had so much Mary Baker Eddy Ron Hubbard garbage when i was growing up- its probably why i was able to see through the ‘call the things that be not- prosperity gospel’ so quickly. And when i read things like Dee posted from the biblical movement i want to wretch.
The concept is great- i would love to be able to have scripture based counseling- i hate to think that people fleeing the church might get entangled with hypnosis or other things that secular counselling sometimes uses that i am staunchly against. But they arent using the scripture to set people free, they are using it to guilt, condemn, manipulate people and they have indeed put the veil back between God and man and taken the place of the One True High Priest. It is safer to go to secular remedy and reject objectionable treatments at this time in my opinion. At least you have the ability to say no and request a different counsellor or go to another clinic there in the world!

sandy c wrote:

Please consider a few things. 1 you are male

I’ll be sure to start a reply substituting female instead of male, I’ll probably get lots of positive comments. Sheesh.

Ken G wrote:

My goal is to focus on prevention. I’m not talking about berating those needing help whether it’s related to AIDS, addiction or being in a car accident.

Maybe we should have a ‘war on drugs’ or a just ‘say no’ national campaign to educate people, maybe someone could make catchy advertisements with a theme of your brain on drugs or something…

@ Daisy:

“Jesus of Nazareth is wonderful, but I never found focusing on Jesus, praying to him, or Bible reading helped with the anxiety or depression.”
+++++++++++++++++++

i liked what you had to say. i don’t think Jesus/God/Holy Spirit want people floating around on spiritual clouds of prayer and praise and pontificating. As relational and productive being(s), i truly believe God wants people to “get busy and do something already, will ya?!!”

God and us, we partner together. Just as action and forward movement is stimulating and envigorating (be it a job search, managing and implementing projects and plans, taking care of business, addressing health concerns, exercise, managing money, engaging in relationships with people, cooking, chores, errands, parties with family and friends, camping, vacations, etc), i think it is envigorating and stimulating to God, too.

i mean, if God is within us, and let’s say adrenaline turns on when we start forward motion, start actually doing something, i think God turns on, too. we work together — God showing us, God speaking to us, as we are doing what we are doing. i think it is exciting for God — i think God is just itching to join us in productivity. in whatever it is we’re doing, even folding laundry.

i remember in college i wanted to build up my swim endurance. i asked God to show me how to maximize and be efficient with energy output and my swim stroke. he didn’t show me in my prayer closet. he showed me as i was swimming, one arm stroke, breath, glide, and set of kicks at a time. (had it been for something more serious than self-improvement, i would have found a human coach)

@ Drstevej:
I have a question Dr Steve. Leaving aside the complementarian issue (which i am still not certain about) and leaving aside the women in ministry issue- what can pastors do to address the abuse of power and authority that some men use hurt women? The #ChurchToo and #MeToo threads on twitter show that women are suffering abuse even in churches. Is there some way pastors can address this from the pulpit without their congregation accusing them of being femminist?
And do you think that ‘complimentrianism’ has changed from what it used to be like? I noted earlier that i suffered greatly by my husband but other couples in the church i attended, especially older couples, had mutually respectful marriages with no abuse in that same framework. Some husbands were alot like that video you shared also, and provided very well for their wives. Thanks.

Daisy wrote:

My dentist can be an atheist or Buddhist for all I care.

Did you hear about the Buddhist who got a root canal without novacaine? He was trying to transcend dental medication.

(Sorry for that – I couldn’t resist)

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Don’t drag Me into it!

With each generation, the organized church tries to convince God that it’s OK to live under a lower standard. It doesn’t work. God is holy … He expects us who believe to raise the bar, not lower it.

@ sandy c:

Yours is a good question. As a pastor I have taught extended series (13 weeks) on Biblical love in 1 Cor 13:4-8
– Love is patient
– love is kind
– It does not envy
– it does not boast
– it is not proud
– It does not dishonor others
– it is not self-seeking
– it is not easily angered
– it keeps no record of wrongs
– Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
– It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

In teaching through this I remind them that this is what is to mark us as disciples Christ. I also note that when Paul tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church this is what he has in mind.

I also have done an extended series on the one another passages in Scripture (the positive ones describing how we are to treat one another and the negatives ones that describe what we are to avoid). The illustrations I use include interaction between believers in a church and members of a family.

This being said, I believer that my congregation watches how I treat my wife. How I treat her either gives weight to my words or discredits them. I am to love her as Christ loves the Church and be willing to sacrifice myself for her.

Does this help?

sandy c wrote:

Maybe we should have a ‘war on drugs’ or a just ‘say no’ national campaign to educate people, maybe someone could make catchy advertisements with a theme of your brain on drugs or something…

I don’t equate education with empty words or catchy phrases.

@ sandy c:

“…They use just enough wording to make it sound legit, who wants to do anything at odds with scripture? But then we see it is used as a means to stoke up fear of the ‘secular world’ which breeds isolation and hides abusive tactics used by some in the movement.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++

well, that is their business plan. (whether they realize it or not)

many churches have the same business plan (whether they realize it or not). that’s how you get people to come. #1 essential to hosting an event: people must come.

drstevej wrote:

In teaching through this I remind them that this is what is to mark us as disciples Christ. I also note that when Paul tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church this is what he has in mind.

I believe that the best Christian marriage counsel has ZERO to do with roles and everything to do with the “one another” passages in the NT: Love one another, forgive one another, bear one another’s burdens, etc. And this goes both ways… husbands to wives, and wives to husbands.

There is a tad of truth in the idea we are all–Christians or not–counselors whether we want the job or not. You sit in the break room over coffee and a coworker shares they are considering an affair and want your input. Or a bankruptcy. Or have a sick kid. Whatever. If you respond at all you are counseling. So in that sense it would be absolutely wonderful if those that claim to be Christian gave Biblical counsel. It might be: adultery breaks a commandment and hurts everyone. Don’t go there. Or can you avoid bankruptcy by seriously cutting back your lifestyle or not? Or have you seen a specialist? Can we help make that happen? All good, and seriously in today’s world something churches should train people to do, since more will ask a friend/coworker/teacher/family member than a shrink or pastor.

But we need to learn the difference between needing counsel, needing professional counselling, needing psychiatric (not psychological) counsel, needing neuropsychiatric counsel, and needing a good physical practitioner. (If your depression is your breathing med’s side effect you do not need talk therapy. You need a different breathing med.)

For every good outcome in psychological counsel I personally saw (there were many) there were an equal number of horrible outcomes (it may make you feel better to lose the guilt over adultery but it is not a good outcome.) Good counsel got a woman out of an abusive situation. Bad counsel made her abuser “feel good about himself” without meaningful change in his behavior.

Physical problems (which can include mood changes and disorders) do not need counselling, they need addressing at the physical level. So if your heart med and elevated blood sugar and death of your spouse of 60 years all have you depressed, you may need not talk therapy alone or an antidepressant alone. You may need both or neither. You may need a different heart med, to get your blood sugar under control (yes, you will have responsibility as well meds), and may do better with a Bible based support group of grieving friends than with a traditional shrink. Or not.) But if your depression is caused by loss of your wife and kids when you (perfectly healthy physically)got randy with your secretary, you may need someone to love you enough to call you to repentance and to man up and accept your consequences.

I suspect the same can be said about Bible based counselling, all forms of secular or religious counsel, and even peer counsel.

The best secular counsel will include the personal responsibility angle. You may be an addict because mom did crack but you do not have to stay one. You may have smacked your wife because dad smacked mom but you can learn to stop making excuses and break the cycle.

But toss a Bible verse at someone in a thyroid storm rage and you just might be guilty of murder yourself. Or the victim of one.

Daisy wrote:

From what I’ve heard, the drug companies that make it were not honest about how addictive it is, and, some doctors were over-prescribing it.

Big Pharma is in the business of making money. Their responsibility is to the shareholders. All other concerns are secondary. Buy low and sell high is the primary ethos.

@ Max:
Short-circuiting the process of what could be relationship. Relationship requires work of the soul – love God, love one another – and produces the ultimate result: love. God is love, His presence among us.

@ Mary27:

I do not see a contradiction. And I say that having done a good bit of premarital counseling and staying in touch with couples I have married for the past 20-40 years.

sandy c wrote:

Maybe we should have a ‘war on drugs’ or a just ‘say no’ national campaign to educate people

Don’t forget to “Wear Your WIN Button!”

Daisy wrote:

They lived a life of drug addiction, robbing people, debauchery, etc. and so on, but the moment they “found Jesus” (or re- committed to Jesus) and started helping other people all the time, they say they found peace, meaning in life and all that jazz.

Standard “Porn for the Pious” JUICY Testimony.

And the instant they said The Sinner’s Prayer EVERYTHING went away and they have been Serene and Secure in their Great FAITH ever since, without a single instant of temptation or doubt, only FAITH FAITH FAITH. Like the guy in the post-Sinner’s Prayer montage in Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”.

Where does that leave all the rest of us, the other 99% who are NOT God’s Speshul Pets?

A.Stacy wrote:

Almost sounds like something from L. Ron Hubbard.

“Just like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

Daisy wrote:

When it comes to over eating, some family members will shame the overweight person, or, that person gets ridiculed at school (if a kid) by their peers for their weight.

They then turn to food to relieve that pain. The shaming and pressure causes them to turn to the food even more.

They call it “comfort food” for a reason.

Daisy wrote:

I’m surprised that biblical counselors don’t do that, or take it back to 2,000 years ago and pick up rocks to toss at the patients who come to visit them.

Dead pew-sitters can’t Tithe.

Divorce Minister wrote:

Also, I would add that treating addictions as simply PERSONAL sin is far too simplistic even from an orthodox Christian perspective.

But fits right in with these guys’ Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation.

Muff Potter wrote:

Big Pharma is in the business of making money. Their responsibility is to the shareholders. All other concerns are secondary. Buy low and sell high is the primary ethos.

It’s not just big pharma. It’s true for nearly all the supplies and services we purchase, including bibles and Christian books (and news, food, entertainment, transportation, you name it).

I am a Christmas Calvinist.

@ Max:

Indeed. I affirm Limited Attainment rather than Limited Atonement (aka: Amyrauldianism)

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

It’s not just big pharma. It’s true for nearly all the supplies and services we purchase, including bibles and Christian books (and news, food, entertainment, transportation, you name it).

As true as pool cues turned on a lathe.

Former CLC’er wrote:

Reportedly CLC is now open to a more therapeutic Christian counseling model.

Thats great to hear!

Lita wrote:

This is all frighteningly familiar. As I read more and more of this, it sounds exactly like some of the practices that were highly “encouraged” at the church that I just recently left. The whole statement about “Every Christian is a counselor” was reinforced in several areas in this church, especially in the small groups. You were “encouraged” (i.e. it was an order from higher up) to “counsel” people in your small group with any and every issue they were having with the

It does sound the same 🙁

drstevej wrote:

This being said, I believer that my congregation watches how I treat my wife. How I treat her either gives weight to my words or discredits them. I am to love her as Christ loves the Church and be willing to sacrifice myself for her.

Does this help?

Yes it does! I was thinking about Gloria and Bill Gaither and many of the couples they have known for years. Also i was thinking about couples i have known for years in Ptirian, baptist, methodist, 4 square and assembly of God churches that didnt have complementary in their creed or belief statement but preached about the role of the husband etc.
About 4 yrs ago an Acts 29 church opened and they had that in their faith statement and their version of ‘love your wife, rule your household’ was almost militeristic!
So i was thinking that if extremists package and label ‘complementerian’ and ‘church authority’ as if it was the same balanced relationship as people were used to, they could slip in their new militeristic gospel before folks realised what was happening.

Muff Potter wrote:

Daisy wrote:

From what I’ve heard, the drug companies that make it were not honest about how addictive it is, and, some doctors were over-prescribing it.

Big Pharma is in the business of making money. Their responsibility is to the shareholders. All other concerns are secondary. Buy low and sell high is the primary ethos.

There were Drs in Bremerton Wa that were charged and lost licenses for overprescribing opiods to patients and while all that legal drama was playing out their patients were just cut off of meds. People that have been taking 7 vicodines daily for a year arent able to just quit like that. Bremerton now has one of the worst heroin meth epidemics nationally. Many of the non drug users in that town are the most cruel commenters online whenever an addict gets arrested. ‘They are irresponsible, lazy, welfare cheats etc… Most addicts cant provide an address or respond to letters from DSHS on time and dont have food stamps etc! Now 6 yrs later the community is starting to talk about providing more treatment centers.
The same thing happened nationally with veterans and PTSD diagnoses. An army base in Seattle got exposed for intenionally refusing to diagnose PTSD…because it would be too costly to have to provide adequate treatment.
When money is the primary factor people are expendable- in drug epidemics, mental health, physical health, and sadly in churches.

@ sandy c:

I prepared a sermon on 3 John when I was in seminary preaching class. John addresses the conduct of a man named Diotrephes in the letter. Diotrephes is a forerunner of militaristic church leaders.

John does not mince words about the conduct of Diotrephes:

9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. 10 So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.

drstevej wrote:

I do not see a contradiction. And I say that having done a good bit of premarital counseling and staying in touch with couples I have married for the past 20-40 years.

Maybe in a perfect world that would be true. In my world, where we’ve spent time with dozens of abused Christian women and listened to their stories, it is not so true. And it often starts at the wedding… for example, we went to the wedding of the son of some close friends and the preacher spent maybe 1-2 minutes telling the new husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and then went on to spend the next 20 min (at least) exhorting the new wife in her role of submission… emphasizing that the success of the marriage would depend on her submission.

Daisy wrote:

I think evangelicals, Christian fundamentalists, and biblical counselors are freaked out or worried that the secular culture will tell every one they are all victims, they’re not responsible for their own actions

I don’t get that. You can still be a victim and responsible for your actions! Why are those two things in contrast?

ultimately, what is important is what you do moving forward. There is no reason to berate people for their past or their feelings. It doesn’t help the goal, unless that is your whole goal.

It is not true that you have to believe in the eternal subordination of the Son at Southern. There is strong disagreement on this between Dr. Stephen Wellum and Dr. Bruce Ware. It’s well known by the students at Southern that Dr. Wellum gets the upper hand between the two professors when they discuss theology.

@ Max:

@ Adam Embry:
Good to hear that there is a remnant of hope for Southern – may Dr. Wellum keep the upper hand over Dr. Ware in regard to the ESS doctrine.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

And the instant they said The Sinner’s Prayer EVERYTHING went away and they have been Serene and Secure in their Great FAITH ever since, without a single instant of temptation or doubt, only FAITH FAITH FAITH. Like the guy in the post-Sinner’s Prayer montage in Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”.

Where does that leave all the rest of us, the other 99% who are NOT God’s Speshul Pets?

I have to respond lol sorry everyone. So, when i first gave my life to Jesus i was a fifth a day drinking alcoholic and i entered someones house at 2 am looking for booze. They didnt shoot me but instead led me to Jesus and said the Holy Spirit was the power to deliver in Jesus. We prayed and i was instantly delivered from Dt’s and felt the love of God beyond anything i had ever known before. I didnt have the slightest urge to drink for years and years and years, even when i was in extreme pain and alcohol was right there.
After a horrific amount of abuse and the church siding with my abuser in court and losing custody of my kids even though i had done everything my husband said, attended church, tithed, loving the Lord with all my heart. Keep in mind please, that i didnt even call the police after having been left bloody and with broken bones, following church directions instead to submit more, the police filed charges against my husband because of outside the home complaints against him. At that point his defense was that it was somehow lies i had made up- (i didnt even know what he was accused of) and the church entered into the court case on his behalf because his dad was a well known elder in town.
So having done all and lost all i got mad at God (because it must have been His will) and returned to drinking. The loss of my kids to an abuser had filled me with *gasp the sin of anxiety over their physical well-being!
I repented of drinking and prayed that God would deliver me again. No lightening bolts no instant deliverance but instead having to go to counseling and addiction groups. I sobered up again and learned that sometimes God moves mountains one pebble at a time. Sometimes He wants to take time to truly heal us from the damage abuse has done to our hearts, sometimes in taking it slower He is able to show us that it was the devil and people with free will that hurt us, not Him.
So both are true- Jesus is able to miraculously deliver people and reveal God in power and peace, and God is also able to walk with people in ordinary ways to reveal a deeper knowledge of Himself.

Max wrote:

Love is not a word tossed around much in New Calvinist ranks, nor a descriptor used to characterize the movement and its followers. Arrogance is the more common identifier.

And i dont remember the scriptures where Jesus preached that being filled with the Holy Spirit would bear the fruit of us being in AUTHORITY OVER PEOPLE, causing others to SUBMIT TO ME, making it so that NO ONE WILL USURP MY AUTHORITY, so that i can CAST THEM OUT OF MY CHURCH AND REMIND EVERYONE THAT TITHING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT!!! Lol

@ drstevej:
Sounds like whosoever will may come to Hawaii!

@ sandy c:
I can’t find those Scriptures either … even in the English Standard Version (the sword of choice by the New Calvinists)! But while looking, I ran across “This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another” (John 13:35). I just don’t see much love being exercised through the authoritarian practices of New Calvinist leaders … they have failed the test of disciples.

@ sandy c:
What i learned going thru all of that was repentance for my prideful snotty attitude towards others that Jesus didnt ‘instantly’ deliver, and for that i am truly thankful! I now usually dont look at others and think, God delivered me instantly- so if you arent instantly delivered you dont have faith, you dont really want to be delivered, you are ‘playing victim’ or numerous other condescending comments or lofty looks i directed at others.

Max wrote:

I can’t find those Scriptures either … even in the English Standard Version (the sword of choice by the New Calvinists)! But while looking, I ran across “This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another” (John 13:35). I just don’t see much love being exercised through the authoritarian practices of New Calvinist leaders … they have failed the test of disciples.

Yes! I heard someone once say ‘so and so’ were being judgemental. The person replied that they werent being judgemental but they sure were called to be fruit inspectors!

What Happened wrote:

@ Ken G:

Is it true that they require clients to provide two goats; one for a sin sacrifice and one to feed the practitioner. The goat requirement is why these guys aren’t part of major insurance networks.

Ken G wrote:

Bridget wrote:

I understand that.
I don’t understand the connection to my comment you quoted. Could you elaborate.

You don’t understand because “What Happened” is not a human being. It’s some kind of computer program that mimics a human response.

Ken

I’m assuming that your reply to Bridget was related to the goat comment. In a fallen world, it seems that neither goats nor personal responsibility have any power over sin.

sandy c wrote:

Sometimes the most Godly response is to say ‘no’

“No” Ken, just No!

Several women in our Bible study have visited with their pastors regarding verbal abuse from their husbands and they were asked, by the counseling pastor, “So what did you do to make him treat you that way?”

I don’t know how common this is, but a number of the ladies have had similar stories. Different churches, various pastors.

“A Reductionist View of Biblical Counseling

As I mentioned earlier in the series, Jay Adams based his counseling paradigm on the biblical Greek word noutheteo, meaning “to admonish.” But as the writer at Theo.Philogue points out, that’s not the only type of counseling addressed in scripture:

“Adams unfortunately reduces all methods for counseling down to nouthetics. Biblical Counseling = Nouthetic Counseling. In fact, he oversimplifies the nature of real-life counseling by reducing it down to “problem solving,” and then speaking of the “problem” only in terms of sin. However, to be faithful to the biblical sources, one must include a variety of problems as well as a variety of methods. We must “admonish [noutheteite] the unruly,” but we also must “encourage [parameutheisthe] the fainthearted” (1 Thess 5:14). Adams could have just as easily reduced all counseling down to paramouthetics and walked us through a thousand methods for paramouthetic engagement. With Adams’ reductionistic approach, it does not surprise the reader that he never mentions the biblically revealed methods of admonishing with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs sung in thankfulness to God (Col 3:16).”
https://revolfaith.com/2015/01/23/the-biblical-counseling-movement-bad-theology/#more-3357

A lot of these accusations are really unfair. One in particular stands out– the fact that you say it is not confidential. Of course it isn’t. These people report child abuse and serious criminal issues to the pastor– a mandated reporter. You would complain if these things weren’t reported to the pastor.

Irene wrote:

A lot of these accusations are really unfair. One in particular stands out– the fact that you say it is not confidential. Of course it isn’t. These people report child abuse and serious criminal issues to the pastor– a mandated reporter. You would complain if these things weren’t reported to the pastor.

They have actually gotten into serious trouble for not reporting child abuse! The lack of confidentiality talked about here has been the kind you notice when youre in church and the ladies two pews behind you are talking about that private thing you discussed in ‘counseling’ last week, and as you leave church the elder turns bright red faced when you say hello.

JYJames wrote:

they were asked, by the counseling pastor, “So what did you do to make him treat you that way?”

In cases of domestic abuse call 911, not your pastor.

Irene wrote:

These people report child abuse and serious criminal issues to the pastor– a mandated reporter. You would complain if these things weren’t reported to the pastor.

Those things should be reported to the police! Sheesh.

And that is not the complaint regarding confidentiality. Regular therapists have things they are required to report to the police, but in other situations are required to maintain confidentiality. Not so with this sort of counseling.

Max wrote:

New Calvinists leaders are smug elites, a characteristic which is rubbing off on a young army of new reformers.

They won’t last. To use a metaphor, they’ll dry up and blow away like so many Walmart bags snarled in chain link fences. We Americans have seen all this stuff before in the ‘great awakenings’. It doesn’t last because it’s not sustainable.

Hi Dee –

I have lived in the backyard of one of the Meccas for the “biblical” counseling movement: Faith Church (formerly Faith Baptist Church) in Lafayette, Indiana. I would encourage you to consult their material as well. If you look at the history page of ACBC, the picture there shows several men from Faith Church, including Faith’s current pastor, Steve Viars (who is still on the board of ACBC). Two previous executive directors of NANC/ACBC are from Faith Church – Dr. Bob Smith and Rev. Bill Goode. I had the virtues of Faith Baptist Church extolled to me so much when I was in fundamentalism that I am sick of the place. Also, here is the about page of Faith’s counseling ministry which mentions ACBC: https://www.faithlafayette.org/counseling/about.

Excellent reporting on this movement! My only thought to offer right now is that this counseling is definitely not “biblical” counseling. It is Calvinist counseling . . . or in other words counseling based on Calvinist theology. Jay Adams was a conservative Presbyterian and applied his Reformed theology to counseling back in the 70s. An early truth you are taught to say in Calvinist counseling is that God has brought this situation into a person’s life for a reason. Therefore to get upset about what happened (even abuse) is to have a wrong attitude toward God ultimately. Very damaging to someone who is the innocent victim of abuse.

@ Muff Potter:

“New Calvinists leaders are smug elites, a characteristic which is rubbing off on a young army of new reformers.”

“It doesn’t last because it’s not sustainable.”
+++++++++++++++

as i see it, these qualities don’t promote human fitness. I think survival of the fittest pertains to ideas as well as individual living bodies.

i think human progression is a two steps forward, one step back kind of thing. while there are many things gravely wrong with the current state of affairs, i think there are many things very right and good which i believe is the product of survival of the fittest ideas over millenia.

(said this simpleton dressing up in a sociologist’s hat)

Back in the late 90s, when my wife and I were (both) MDiv students at SEBTS, the Biblical Counseling program was just coming online. Two of the three dedicated professors were professional counselors – one a psychologist, the other a licensed Ph.D. (“secular”) counselor and de facto head of the department; in fact, the licensed counselor/department head used to talk about being the only professor on staff who had never been to seminary for any degree.

A few years after we left the school he resigned and went to another seminary (not Southern). The last I heard, he was no longer teaching and was back in private practice.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

“SEVENTY YEARS AGO, THIS “YOUNG ARMY OF NEW REFORMERS” WOULD HAVE BEEN ON FIRE FOR COMMUNISM INSTEAD OF CALVINISM.”

Eighty years ago J. Gresham Machen left the growing liberalism of Princeton Seminary and with others (ex. Cornelius Van Til) started Westminster Theological Seminary which was a resurgence of historic Calvinism. He also founder the Orthodox Presbyterian presbyterian church which firmly affirmed the historic Reformed creeds.

No commies among them. Fifty years later I started a PhD program there and it was still solid. Today my friend and PhD classmate, Pete Lilback is president and they still are graduating students who are scattered worldwide planting TULIPS.

drstevej wrote:

they still are graduating students who are scattered worldwide planting TULIPS.

Do you believe, like Spurgeon, that Calvinism is the gospel? Do you believe that a person can be a true Christian if they reject TULIP?

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

drstevej wrote:
they still are graduating students who are scattered worldwide planting TULIPS.
Do you believe, like Spurgeon, that Calvinism is the gospel? Do you believe that a person can be a true Christian if they reject TULIP?

I do not embrace Limited Atonement. Do the math.

BTW, Westminster does not require students to sign the Westminster Confession (else I could not have enrolled) but the vast majority do affirm historic Calvinism.

BTW, my PhD diploma was written in Latin and conferred in Latin. When I asked why, I was told, with a smile, “we require students to study Hebrew and Greek yet confer degrees in Latin. Why? We have always done it that way.”

drstevej wrote:

Pete Lilback is president and they still are graduating students who are scattered worldwide planting TULIPS.

You know that everyone involved is going to stand before the judgement seat of Christ and have to explain this.

JYJames wrote:

Several women in our Bible study have visited with their pastors regarding verbal abuse from their husbands and they were asked, by the counseling pastor, “So what did you do to make him treat you that way?”

I think women who were asked that question should respond by asking the counseling pastor, “why do you believe I did something to make him treat me that way?”

sandy c wrote:

Anyone seeking counseling is responsible in some way for their plight and must repent of their wrongdoing to feel better.

Is this why they keep banging on about ‘personal responsibility’???

No. That is so wrong. Taking care of yourself in some instances might be meaning using your ‘personal responsibility’ to:
Leave a bad situation
Take your medication
Go to actual therapy
Exercise, get your finances in order, go to school, etc…

None of that means everything wrong with you is your fault. What lunacy.

Ken G wrote:

I think women who were asked that question should respond by asking the counseling pastor, “why do you believe I did something to make him treat me that way?”

You mean those women that arent allowed to speak?

sandy c wrote:

You mean those women that arent allowed to speak?

They would just be written off as unsubmissive jezebels.

The best response to this nonsense would be to reject that counselor/pastor utterly as useless, but I’m pretty sure it takes time to realize people you thought were good decent men…aren’t.

Lea wrote:

They would just be written off as unsubmissive jezebels.

Gimme’ a Jezebel over a sanctimonious Suzie any day of the week.

As someone who takes anxiety medication, and sees a counselor for talk therapy – I don’t really count on Christian counseling or secular counseling. I’m not saying there aren’t helpful things I’ve learned from secular counseling (and maybe people here see that as a success?), but measuring success post-therapy is subjective. True, there can be studies cited and supposed empirical evidence, but we live in a world where people whom truly feel they were born in the wrong body are sometimes encouraged to chop their genitalia off in hopes to reach relief.

sandy c wrote:

Calvinists and neo calvinists get great reviews until a dead body comes to light, like the lawsuit of the kid that killed himself under their counsel, or an abused woman or child that they carefully hid for years.

It would be *incredibly* foolish not to realize this happens in all sorts of churches of different theological persuasions!

@ Irene:
Or it might be really easy! Theres a great article about the IBCD “bait and switch” it explains how everytime they get called out for their bad doctrine they get someone to stand up with “new” methods but its still the same old thing. Your link says exactly that- he’s going to “..and reach to the heart of the issue with hope to redeem these situations for God’s glory”

Heres a link to the series on the problems of bait and switch but I’ll tell you right off that if you have never met Jesus it wont help you at all. You’ll just keep defending false doctrine.
https://revolfaith.com/2014/12/25/the-biblical-counseling-movement-bait-and-switch/#more-3328

@ elastigirl:

“i’ve thought for a long time that the word “sin” is too loaded a word for safe handling.”
+++++++++++++++

makes people neurotic. “oooooh i’ve sinned…forgive me….forgive me….”

and on further analysis, no I didn’t.

I simply felt a feeling that wasn’t spouting rainbows.

Lea wrote:

I realize there are a lot of people here who don’t like Calvinist theology

While some commenters are certainly anti-Calvinist, I believe the bigger concern held here is with the New Calvinist movement. It is an aggressive and militant movement of young, restless and reformed who are disrupting the Body of Christ in various denominations. They truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the us have lost … gospel = Calvinism to them. My concern is not so much with classical Calvinists – I have found them to be more civil in their discourse with other Christians … but their neo-brethren taking over churches by stealth and deception, authoritarian leadership, subordination of women, and diminishing of Jesus just doesn’t sit right with me.

sandy c wrote:

You mean those women that arent allowed to speak?

Well if they aren’t allowed to speak, they could hold up a sign with that question!!

elastigirl wrote:

“I’m an accountant and your budget has problems.”
“How honest is this?”

(i see a new business venture here…)

Love it!

elastigirl wrote:

i’ve thought for a long time that the word “sin” is too loaded a word for safe handling.

Agreed. Sin is another one of those concepts that suffers from extremes. Blowing it off altogether at one end, and making it a bogeyman for all things at the other (Ecclesiastes 7:15-18).

Max wrote:

They truly believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the us have lost …

Seventy-plus years ago, their gospel would have been Marx & Lenin instead of Calvin.

Bridget wrote:

That is a revolting remark.

Would you honestly expect anything different from the sick and twisted hardcore variants of fundamentalism?

Just my two cents, which won’t buy much, but we have some different world views going that make it difficult to understand each other.

For some personal autonomy and freedom to create their own reality is key. From this can come support for the transgender community (note I do not mean those born with medical issues), for gay marriage, for women’s ordination, for egalitarianism, etc. Note again I did not say all of those are bad things. I said the root CAN be in one particular world view.

Others come from a world view where an objective truth is key. If those happen to be Christian they may take a dim view of the above things as unbiblical. They do not support those things BECAUSE they believe in an absolute truth AND believe that truth forbids the doing of them.

Neither side can understand the other. But at the end of the day, a transgender who has surgery to go from male to female or vice versa is still a male or female genetically (whatever they were born), married homosexuals cannot procreate and cannot force others to accept their marriage as valid in anything other than a legal sense, those objecting to women’s ordination cannot be forced to sit under their teaching, and those objecting to egalitarianism will still not live and act and believe that way. Of course, the exact opposite is also true in all this.

What we have is not Calvinism vs notCalvinism, it is a clash of world views. Calvinism is the whipping boy because it does claim an objective truth that applies universally. I did not say it gets that truth right, just that it does claim there is absolute objective truth. And that offends any and all with a world view that each creates their own truth.

Maybe we need to do two things: fight the battle over world views, not specific theologies. And remind ourselves that the New Puritans are neither NeoCalvinists nor New Calvinists. Their attitudes, actions, and many of their teachings are flourishing in legalistic Lutheran, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, and even some RCC parishes. Battle the real enemy of our souls, humans wanting to be in spiritual control of other humans rather than theologies. Remember scripture does tell us some will hold special days, others see every day the same, some avoid meats, others eat with thanks. They will stand or fall before their own Master, Christ, not us.

@ Max:

Yes.

The Man Who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:

I think the fundamental thing here is that human beings will always seek dominion over one another, and they will always create theologies that support their abusive practices.

“Men of Sin” will always cite Cosmic-level authorities — Bible, Koran, Marx, Freud, Darwin, Nature — to justify at a Cosmic level what they want to do anyway. “I WANNA!”

@ Max:
They, the wives, thought their husbands would listen to the pastor. Unfortunately, the pastor turned on them, the wives.

Hi. I’m one of the Reformed guys that contributes to the comment sections once in a while. I’m among other Reformed people that appreciate what WW is doing and that feel jealous for our theology’s reputation, which is often left battered in the comments section. I have been a Christian since the early 1980’s. I have worshiped and served within many theological communities. No one should think for a moment that the Reformed faith (which I distinguish from Calvinism) is uniquely capable of producing bad people, practices, and churches. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Now, according to the standard lexicon for NT Greek, BDAG, nouthesia and its cognate verb, noutheteo, etc.) means “counsel about avoidance or cessation of an improper course of conduct, ‘admonition,’ ‘instruction.’” It is a perfectly good word-group that appears frequently enough in the NT (11X) to get a good idea of what it means. One thing is clear: it does not mean ‘counseling’ as that word is commonly used in our culture. It really has nothing to do with lengthy, one-on-one sessions between a professional (or a practitioner) and a client seeking to resolve psychological trauma, gain relief from anxiety and/or depression, help for PTSD or childhood sexual abuse or a host of other very real problems that fallen people face and try to overcome. That’s where the confusion begins: Jay Adams appropriated ‘counseling’ as that word is commonly understood, tacked the word “Biblical” onto it, then grabbed the NT’s nouth- words and voila: the *Christian* (= good) alternative to a secular (= evil) practice. It was a fundamentalist sleight-of-hand.

One analogy that has been used to criticize the nouthetic approach to counseling is to compare it to the practice of medicine. No one seriously believes that the Bible is sufficient to diagnose and treat all sorts of illnesses and diseases, right? Nouthetic folk dismiss this because they operate on a mind-body dualism: medicine for the body, but Bible for the ‘ghost’ that inhabits it. But the analogy has, in my mind, been vindicated over time, as more and more (unassailable) research has shown that, first, the brain itself can undergo various traumas (physical, like concussions, emotional, like abuse) that first manifest themselves in what we think of as emotional illnesses or poor mental health, e.g., anxiety and/or depression. Then second, it is well-known that there are actual diseases–i.e., genuine biological illnesses (Lyme disease and syphilis to name just two) that may present as emotional illnesses or poor mental health. Dismiss syphilis as a moral failure if you want to, but Lyme disease? Where is the moral failure in a tick bite?

@ sandy c:

Sandy you are awesome for being a friend to someone who most would and have turned their back to. Your “love in action” makes you an exemplar of peace, truth, and Life. ✨