This guy is so strange, and kinda creepy. Why is he noticing these things? Especially in light of that whole thing about only having sexual desires for his wife. Something doesn’t add up here. Methinks his eyes wander around a bit too much for his own good.

I’m a male and wouldn’t take fashion advice from Piper. I have no idea what he’s thinking by dispensing fashion advice to females. Then again, I have trouble comprehending a lot of his random, rambling thoughts.

On a semi-related note, my ex-pastor constantly used the phrase “going through the motions” like it was the worst sin you could commit. I never did figure out what exactly he meant by that, or how many hours you had to volunteer/how many church activities you had to participate in so you weren’t considered to be “going through the motions.”

This man is creepy. Not normal. Being exposed to his writing regarding modesty and sex convinces more than ever that he has some issues he needs to deal with. I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

I distinctly recall hearing a radio interview on a show for men, where the host interviewed a man about some sort of men’s issue. Turns out, this fellow had grown up in Africa, where his parents served as missionaries. It was a rural setting, and “tatas” were a normal part of life, often quite visible. This fellow found the struggles of American evangelical men regarding women’s upper bodies to be a bit curious. I wonder what he would think of Piper.

The problem is the heart. Not the clothes. Even full-on Victorian dress is no match for an average imagination. And I can’t help but think that the problem of lust is more intense when women are viewed as “less than,” as created as helpers for men only, and incubators for their children. And bringers of tea. Objects.

Piper: “Women should dress in such a way as to draw attention to their eyes, their face…” This is pure Bill Gothard. Gothard even had illustrations of sample hairstyles for women that would supposedly cause men to look at eyes instead of,,,well, whatever else (cough, cough) they might otherwise look at.

We know that looking only at a woman’s eyes prevents all manner of lust and sinful behavior for men, assault and rape included. (Hush now, and try not to think about rape and assault problems in strict Islamic societies where women wear burkas.)

Hallucanagenics?

“When you have prayed, lift up your eyes. Lift them up to the deep, blue sky. Lift them up to the brilliant whiteness of the billowing clouds. Lift them up to the unfathomable star-filled darkness of the night. Lift them up to misty mountain ranges, and to the rivers that have run for a thousand years, and to the mighty trees that took their time to become strong imperceptibly, and to the orange day-lilies and purple vines and the yellow-souled daisies, and to the ripple-free lakes at dusk, and the great bow of the ocean horizon.”

I’m 97% sure he sleeps in a red union suit with his glasses on.

But, no problem with how competitive ice skaters dress???? Hmmmmmmmm.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/an-olympic-lesson-for-husbands-and-wives

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):

Good Point!

Comment 2 of 2

[Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]

I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
 God’s given me a mighty miracle
 You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
 But you might not get it

There’s a lot of that about.

ManaGAWD’s got a real dirty mind…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0qDW9shiD8

Bridget wrote:

This man is creepy. Not normal. Being exposed to his writing regarding modesty and sex convinces more than ever that he has some issues he needs to deal with. I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

Never mind psychiatrist; I’d like to see what an FBI profiler would say.

Tree wrote:

Gothard even had illustrations of sample hairstyles for women that would supposedly cause men to look at eyes instead of,,,well, whatever else (cough, cough) they might otherwise look at.

Sample hairstyles that fit Got Hard’s own sexual pariphiliae, of course.
“Loooooong… Waaaaaaaaavy… Haaaaaaaair… (heavy breathing sounds)”

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

dee wrote:

Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.

You could have phrased that better, you know.

Hahahaha, snort, cough…..

He won’t be happy until all women are in burqas. That’ll hide their, “tatas”, and masculine bodies.

I also do not believe for one moment he’s been delivered from adulterous thoughts.

Kathi wrote:

@Dee — LOL! Piper should consider teaching that men and women can admit that, yes, we find people attractive and that’s okay. It’s a part of being human. And, a human body is merely that, a human body. That being said, one can find a person attractive and should still be able to communicate and associate without thinking about sex. It’s called treating a person like a human being, and most people do that well. The problem with Piper is that he has always focused on sex. I often wondered with as much as he has talked about it over the years that he has a problem with sex. Now that he has come out with his recent statement, I am convinced of that more. It always seems to be the ones who say, “I don’t have a problem” that actually do.

Amen to that.

Correction to last statement: “So, is this a fair assessment of Piper’s teaching: A woman cannot divorce her husband if he beats her black and blue, but she can divorce him if he has sex with someone else? Such a position shows how wrong it all is.

@ Jeannette Altes:

It’s reassuring to know that someone else’s sense of humour (or humor, if you prefer) is as bad as mine!

There’s tennis on later, of course, but my tennis updates keep landing in customs for some reason. I’m trying to tone them down.

Well, if he is going to be spending any time in nature, here is a bird he must be careful to avoid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_tit

Bridget wrote:

I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

I don’t think that a psychiatrist is necessary. Piper can be pretty well summed up by that famous mental health professional, Barney Fife:

“He’s a nut!”

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.
You could have phrased that better, you know.

Nurse humour! Marvellous. Any of you who are of delicate nature would also do well to avoid my comment above.
But seriously, being buxom & being Christian is tough, non-Christian men are generally much better behaved though I got a lot of comments as a younger woman. It’s an absolute curse & I remember staring down a young l’Abri student in a church service once who kept turning round to stare at my chest. Maybe he thought they were implants? Anyway, just disturbing.

Tree wrote:

Piper: “Women should dress in such a way as to draw attention to their eyes, their face…” This is pure Bill Gothard. Gothard even had illustrations of sample hairstyles for women that would supposedly cause men to look at eyes instead of,,,well, whatever else (cough, cough) they might otherwise look at.
We know that looking only at a woman’s eyes prevents all manner of lust and sinful behavior for men, assault and rape included. (Hush now, and try not to think about rape and assault problems in strict Islamic societies where women wear burkas.)

Bill Got hard for sure and many other fundy groups.
Always the females fault for men having, * impure * thoughts. Wonder why Jesus never addressed modesty in females, or masculine females, if it’s such problem?

Beakerj wrote:

Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.
You could have phrased that better, you know.
Nurse humour! Marvellous. Any of you who are of delicate nature would also do well to avoid my comment above.
But seriously, being buxom & being Christian is tough, non-Christian men are generally much better behaved though I got a lot of comments as a younger woman. It’s an absolute curse & I remember staring down a young l’Abri student in a church service once who kept turning round to stare at my chest. Maybe he thought they were implants? Anyway, just disturbing.

I was in a choir years ago. A few of the women were well endowed, attractive women. One time a man complained we should wear choir robes so the congregation wouldn’t be, “distracted”, by the buxom babes. We less then buxom protested that we were being punished because choir robes were very hot to wear over clothing. Thank God we prevailed.
I thoroughly believe some fungus men want women in burqas.

@ Mae:

Ah, Mae, you beat me to it.

@ Jeannette Altes:

😉

Piper’s paen to his wife reminds me of the poem Annabel Lee by Edgar Allan Poe, especially the first two stanzas:

It was many and many a year ago,
In a kingdom by the sea,
That a maiden there lived whom you may know
By the name of Annabel Lee;
And this maiden she lived with no other thought
Than to love and be loved by me.

I was a child and she was a child,
In this kingdom by the sea,
But we loved with a love that was more than love—
I and my Annabel Lee—
With a love that the wingèd seraphs of Heaven
Coveted her and me.

He seems to vote himself as a Christian bard, and he talks of his intimate life like he’s an adult film start – a Neo Cal Shakespeare crossed with an elect* Ron Jeremy.

Would it kill this man to simply admit that he’s normal?

(*Please note the “l” in that word. Wink wink nudge nudge say no more.)

Piper: “the nipple-free lakes…I mean ripple-free”

I know that when many of you saw my name pop up in the comment stream, you thought ole’ Max will surely impart some words of wisdom on the matter at hand. Well, sorry to disappoint you – this TWW post leaves me speechless (nearly) … except to remind you yet again that Piper is a nut-case, so go buy his books.

Driscoll made a good living being a potty-mouth preacher and writing porno marriage books. Piper comes across as more sophisticated, but he sure gets creepy sometimes. Reformed whippersnappers depend on Piper Points to help them get through their struggles with flesh. While Dee was cranking out this post last evening, Piper was tweeting “Seven Promises to Pray Against Porn.” The man sure seems obsessed with such topics. In his post, he serves up some counsel to YRR flesh-babies:

“The Internet is a cosmic battlefield … When the temptations circle, we have to stop, crack our knuckles, dig in our heels, and believe the Bible … You are not doomed to digital dungeons. Don’t go online with palms up and wrists ready for sin’s chains … We are saints, co-heirs of the universe. It wouldn’t be right for a billionaire’s kids to eat from Golden Corral’s dumpster. It isn’t right for us to dwell in a digital landfill.” http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/seven-promises-to-pray-against-porn

Whew! He scared the bejesus out of me! Guess I better get off this digital dungeon, crack my knuckles, dig in my heels, and go water the garden. After I get the yard work done, my wife I will probably go to Golden Corral (no, wait a minute, we’ll go somewhere else – I still have that dumpster image in my mind – thanks a lot Piper!)

Very infrequent commenter here. Admittedly, I first saw this on the Christian Post website (the paragon of hard-core, hard-hitting journalism #NOT), and my first thought was, and still is, “I find that VERY hard to believe”.

What is worse is that I find it very difficult to trust anyone that says that what has worked for them in the area of abstaining from sexual sin should be normative for ALL people.

Beakerj wrote:

But seriously, being buxom & being Christian is tough, non-Christian men are generally much better behaved though I got a lot of comments as a younger woman. It’s an absolute curse & I remember staring down a young l’Abri student in a church service once who kept turning round to stare at my chest. Maybe he thought they were implants?

Remember Josh Duggar and his compulsive “hand sex” while Courting(TM)?

Or strict Muslims freaking out when they see a glimpse of ankle or eyes under the burqa?

If your world is nothing but Thou Shalt Nots, any hint of Forbidden Fruit will trigger an X-treme sexual paraphilia reaction.

We all know Piper is a whack job and has been all along. It just became more obvious with social media. But what is most chilling about Piper are the thousands and thousands of young men and women who hung on his every word for the last 25 years as Holy Writ. They are the ones I worry about. They are spread across the globe, too. Some from my own family who joined the Piper worship brigade at Wheaton 17 or so years ago. It’s all we heard. Piper this or that.

I bet you guys did not know that 4th of July celebrations are sinful, too. Idolatry, to be exact. (Like a retirement video filmed in Geneva by a giant Calvin statue?)

But back then I knew little about him except that based on their cultish adoration of him and his bizarre teaching they arrogantly shared, I was not inclined to like him much. After all, none of us knew the true Gospel. My brother and my mom were convinced they had joined a bizarre faux Christian cult. Who else can make one disdain their “ignorant” family so quick? I suggested to my brother he remind them he paid their way through an expensive college. They never had to work or had loans to pay back. They also had cars.

So I started researching him.

But I did ask a few years later about this Pipers wife. (Upon graduation they moved to Minn. to study with Piper) the answer: Oh, she doesn’t talk much. She paints a lot and wears berets. That was it. Noel. An afterthought.

So there is a clue. This was not a ministry “team” to youth. It was all John Piper- all the time. And it worked with underdeveloped frontal lobes because he had a nerdy sincerity with truck loads of flowery verbosity that over powered the real message he was communicating underneath. And that message was: I get it right. No one else does who doesn’t agree with me. A nerdy, arm waving, voice mesmerizing, charismatic tiny little Elmer Gantry of sorts. A tiny man with big flowery words and hypnotic gestures.

Pipers background is Bob Jones fundamentalism to which he added his own religion of 7 pt Calvinism.

It is fascinating to see where it all went. I don’t know if he was always this publicly creepy about sex to his congregants or if retirement and a twitter account just made it more obvious. But he does have the very basics of Islamic thinking down pat: It’s always the women who make us lust.

To this he adds his Puritanesque prayers: Oh God! Don’t let me think Pink! Deliver me from thinking Pink! Perform a miracle on my Pink thinking heart! Don’t think Pink. Don’t think Pink. Don’t think Pink. Ad nauseum.

See how it works? You are thinking Pink!!!

And this was and is taught to Neo Cal youth groups all over America. Who do nothing but think Pink. That is Pipers legacy: creepiness.

Now he is just a creepy old man.

Lydia wrote:

A nerdy, arm waving, voice mesmerizing, charismatic tiny little Elmer Gantry of sorts. A tiny man with big flowery words and hypnotic gestures.

Drama Queening straight out of a cartoon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRhovNlNck4
(And where I got the term “Drama Queen Diaries”):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp3nfIY17Vk

Lydia wrote:

… Pipers wife … she doesn’t talk much. She paints a lot and wears berets …

And delivers tea to him when he rings a bell from his third floor study.

Lydia wrote:

this was and is taught to Neo Cal youth groups all over America. Who do nothing but think Pink.

Flesh babies who will never overcome the wiles of the devil listening to Piper.

okrapod wrote:

with no prior warning ‘exploded’

Whew! My mind is about to explode right now! Piper is the weird uncle your mama warned you about … so let’s go to his conferences and buy his books … cool!

These young reformers would not be listening to the man if they were in their right spiritual minds. They are under Pied Piper’s trance.

(My 3-year old grandson introduced me to his Vacation Bible School teacher last night as his cool grandpa. I’m cool because I take him fishing & hiking, not the weird kind of cool that clothes Piper.)

The self-flagellation and the odd sort of poetically admiring one’s sins where it almost sounds worshipful and in awe of it..(*especially lust!, it’s the epitome of war/battle for them, proof that they are real men)…It’s all pretty common with the men who follow Piper. For Piper it’s a lot of the Puritan, particularly Jonathan Edwards influence.

Their theology or social ethics or what have you ends up being very sin-centric and not Christ and what is good centric. You define sin or what’s wrong or bad by focusing and getting to know what is good and what goodness and Christ looks like, using that as the measure. “Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.”

Not by defining good by merely what’s not sin, putting sin as the focus and center of your vision and world. Because in that way “sin” often will just look like your own personal manifestations or neuroses or ever changing issues or thoughts. It won’t be real discernment or distinguishment of reality or engaging real life.

Then you think your “sin” is everyone else’s sin and everyone needs what you need and to do what you do and so on. It’s all very self-centered and exhausting.

The image of Piper lurking in an airport terminal with magnetic eyes has me really creeped out this morning.

Max wrote:

Oh emily honey, you need to go wash yo’ mouth out with soap!

But if she typed it rather than saying it, doesn’t it mean she needs to wash her hands with soap?

Max wrote:

The image of Piper lurking in an airport terminal with magnetic eyes has me really creeped out this morning.

Has me reminded of this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDmsS-EZdL4

@ emily honey:

Yes, yes and yes! You have nailed it.

And worse, it’s to the point of bragging about it. Who is the biggest worm?

I have said for years: We need to believe them. After all, the biggest sinner, CJ, turned out to be harboring pedophiles. Team Mohler and Dever covered for him, too.

I have been around Piper and sadly his height brings him almost eye level to many ta tas. That could be the source of his real problem.

@ dee:

I was thinking less metro-sexual, but I think your version is better.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Or the Statement-Analysis guy, Peter Hyatt. Plenty of Piper material for him to analyze.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

This begs the question, what about another man? Perhaps a Freudian slip by Pastor Emeritus Piper below? I for one would disagree with Piper’s assertion that “we are prone to fall in love with the same sex.” But I believe Piper is speaking candidly about his own feelings.

Desiring God is a ministry of a bunch of similar-looking young guys.

A workplace with an old guy leader + all fresh-faced young guys, or an old guy leader + young ladies, or an old lady leader + all young guys, or old lady leader + all young ladies, = doesn’t look like a team. It looks like an obsession.

JYJames wrote:

Desiring God is a ministry of a bunch of similar-looking young guys.

Don’t forget all the faux beards they sport in an attempt to look intelligent.

@ dee:

Dee,

That is awful but sadly does not surprise me. It goes back to the same problem we have discussed before – idolising marriage as an institution. Ethics on sex, relationships and divorce have a very straight-forward basis in Romans 13:

“8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

If Piper and his fans followed that simple advice they would not be so hung about “lusting” and “committing adultery”. In Romans 13 adultery is listed here as a crime against another human being and not against an institution, a “creational mandate” or a “biblical gender role”. Piper has completely the wrong foundation to even start talking about adultery and divorce!

@ Max:

Lol! Great comment.

(Do you get the feeling Piper was sneaking peaks at the National Geographic Magazine at the drug store as a kid and then carrying great guilt for his heinous sin?)

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):

I wish I could unsee that.

@ dee:
Sounds like normal airport thoughts.

A recent Piper tweet:

“The withdrawn guy in the corner may be as ego-consumed as the guy attracting everyone’s eyes.”

?!

ZechZav wrote:

Correction to last statement: “So, is this a fair assessment of Piper’s teaching: A woman cannot divorce her husband if he beats her black and blue, but she can divorce him if he has sex with someone else? Such a position shows how wrong it all is.

Actually, Piper is against divorce in the case of adultery as well. (http://www.divorceminister.com/i-disagree-with-john-piper-on-adulterydivorce/). Like Dee explains, divorce seems to be the greater sin (than abuse and adultery) in the practical theology of Piper. It is sad.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Comment 2 of 2

[Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]

I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
 God’s given me a mighty miracle
 You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
 But you might not get it

There’s a lot of that about.

That’s exactly what struck me!!!! “Pray for it! Plead for it! But it might not be transferable to you because God’s Free Grace is for His special pets and I’m one and maybe you’re not.”

@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
LOL
We were looking at the same thing at the same time.

dee wrote:

Wow! You nailed it. Old Woody had a few peculiar proclivities as well.

Yep. Peculiar. Exactly what I was thinking.
And Southern Ky chiming in here: I’ve been out in the garden picking beans this morning, so I’m a little sweaty …… Sitting here barefooted, wearing a tank top. ……… Barefooted! Oh no! I hope Piper doesn’t have afoot fetish, too!

@ Divorce Minister:

Thanks for the information. This is because Piper obviously values traditions, institutions and abstract concepts and doesn’t care at all about human beings.

@ roebuck:
Lol! Did you know a man invented the brassiere? A Frenchman.

IMO lust is not merely finding someone physically attractive. It is something much darker and more obsessive. A way to combat lust is to realize that the one lusted after is actually a whole person, equal to oneself in worth, and not only a sexual object. Piper et al are unable to see attractive women in this (normal, healthy) way, so it’s no wonder that many struggle with lust and porn.

Stan wrote:

Seriously, airports? Is it the part where everyone has to take their belts off? What about looking at all the cool planes out the window?

I went to Nashville last night ….. arrived downtown about 5 pm …,. sweltering heat, high humidity……. Piper should have seen all of the “scantily clad” ladies riding the party barges down second street! One of the party barges is an extended-bed pick-up truck with a swimming pool in the bed.

Max wrote:

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

Does Piper ever talk about Jesus?

Not much. But that is a characteristic of New Calvinism. They talk a lot about “God”, barely mention Jesus, and seldom utter a word about the Holy Spirit. They toss around a lot of gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that and refer to being Christ-followers … but they never really preach the Gospel or raise Jesus’ name above all names.

“____________ (insert whatever you may want) to the Glory of God” is also bantered around a lot amongst Piper’s followers.

Lydia wrote:

@ roebuck:
Lol! Did you know a man invented the brassiere? A Frenchman.

Had to be invented by a man… Believe it or not, the German word for brassiere is ‘Bustenhalter’.

I love the humor in this thread, but as a parent of adolescents, I find this stuff from Piper seriously toxic. It’s hard enough to raise a kid with a positive body image and responsible attitudes about sex without all of this garbage. However, I find Piper quoted and revered in so many churches!

scott hendrixson wrote:

It has been rumored that John Peter Piper is aesexual and propagates by division. It’s just a rumor, but the voices in my head have been rig

If that is true, surely Monsanto makes some sort of pesticide……..

ZechZav wrote:

@ Divorce Minister:
Thanks for the information. This is because Piper obviously values traditions, institutions and abstract concepts and doesn’t care at all about human beings.

No problem. I am still hoping he retracts or seriously modifies his position on these matters. It certainly has caused carnage in the Christian community.

@ dee:
Pretty much my husband’s thoughts too. Also, hope my flight isn’t late or I get stuck here.

Caroline wrote:

I love the humor in this thread, but as a parent of adolescents, I find this stuff from Piper seriously toxic. It’s hard enough to raise a kid with a positive body image and responsible attitudes about sex without all of this garbage. However, I find Piper quoted and revered in so many churches!

The root of this is Piper’s hedonism. For him, it’s all about pleasure and satisfaction. Here is one of his articles on how to fight lust: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/anthem-strategies-for-fighting-lust. Note that his solution heavily stresses replacing one kind of pleasure with another kind of pleasure. Jesus did not talk this way.

You can tell the health of a pastor and church based on how they prioritize sin and whether they have compassion.

Regarding sin:

If it’s something sexual, it goes to the top as particularly loathsome.

But pride, arrogance, and unwillingness to love others as self, these are not worth discussion.

Regarding compassion:
Unlike Jesus who was constantly bringing the out-group in (Gentiles, prostitutes, swindlers), certain pastors emphasize doctrine that promotes themselves and their friends as the in-group. And if you’re not in their in-group, you don’t get any compassion.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
JYJames wrote:

Lydia wrote:
I don’t know if he was always this publicly creepy about sex to his congregants or if retirement and a twitter account just made it more obvious.
Attention addiction.

Again, attention addiction and following trends, in this case, the works of Mark Driscoll. (with regard to Ken F.’s link)

With the narcissistic attention addiction, curiosity about sex, and pied piper follow-me-boys antics, a professional could pinpoint this behavior on a timeline, when the arrested development began. Understandable at a certain age, but for an old man – childish, inappropriate, unprofessional, and definitely misguided theology.

Janey wrote:

Jesus who was constantly bringing the out-group in (Gentiles, prostitutes, swindlers), certain pastors emphasize doctrine that promotes themselves and their friends as the in-group. And if you’re not in their in-group, you don’t get any compassion.

Yes!!

Caroline wrote:

I find Piper quoted and revered in so many churches!

I’ve seen this celebrity worship and it makes me vomit. One of my former Facebook friends from a Gospel Coalition church even posted a video of Piper’s preaching poses put to music and he was mentioned in some of the words. He was being worshiped!

Caroline wrote:

one way to fight lust would be for these guys to realize that attractive women are equal in value to themselves rather than objects for their amusement or temptation.

Yes, the authority factor definitely promotes lust (women as objects, toys, possessions, underlings).

That’s why in the work place, a superior is not supposed to be dating those under their authority. The power factor doesn’t work in personal relationships. Same with in counseling, and adults + minors, etc. Anyone in one’s charge, so to speak, should not be pursuing an intimate relationship. It doesn’t work. It’s weird how in religion, theology places authority in an intimate relationship. Even the world recognizes that power and intimacy don’t mix.

The problem here is:

1). When a person’s talent is not up to the hype about their talent, but they’re expected to come up with trenchant points.

2). When a person runs out of insight early in their career but is hooked on the buzz they get from all the attention and keep trying to produce new brilliance, such as the “orange-day lilies” prose, which reads like it was written by an earnest 14 year old in AP creative writing class.

3). When a person is proud and therefore stops listening and learning, they sound more an more foolish as the years go by. When I saw Piper speak in person a couple times 20 years ago, two things leaped out: first, he seemed proud in an over-the-top, vulgar way, but did his best to fake humble it, and second, he seemed mind-numbingly dull. That Piper should pass for a Christian intellectual with great insight says a lot about the lack of intellect and insight among his small group of loyal fans. I never have understood the Piper attraction and never will.

Janey wrote:

You can tell the health of a pastor and church based on how they prioritize sin and whether they have compassion.

Regarding sin:

If it’s something sexual, it goes to the top as particularly loathsome.

But pride, arrogance, and unwillingness to love others as self, these are not worth discussion.

Regarding compassion:
Unlike Jesus who was constantly bringing the out-group in (Gentiles, prostitutes, swindlers), certain pastors emphasize doctrine that promotes themselves and their friends as the in-group. And if you’re not in their in-group, you don’t get any compassion.

Janey, these are wise words.

Max wrote:

I’ve never heard more men slobbering with flattery over each other in all my life! Put those silly women in their place so we can spend more time with each other!

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”
Winston S. Churchill

“… but at the length truth will out.”
From Shakespeare’s “The Merchant of Venice”

I know of at least one celebrity conference speaker who is hoping I “hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” To which I reply “at length truth will out.”

Law Prof wrote:

That Piper should pass for a Christian intellectual with great insight says a lot about the lack of intellect and insight among his small group of loyal fans. I never have understood the Piper attraction and never will.

I have been saying this for years. The first time I saw a Piper video I first thought “THIS is what passes for a top-ranked Christian intellectual?”. Second thought: What a pathetic little man. Third thought: the guy’s a wack-job. I’ve never seen or read anything to change my opinion.

dee wrote:

I decided not to go there because I was already pushing the envelope here although I had fun with it.
Do you remember this?

I generally play the “fool who rushes in where angels fear to tread!”

And no, I did not remember that story. Hard for a guy my age to remember all the carnage in Evangelical Christianity.

Mae wrote:

Only the super holy, and anointed actually receive this miracle. The rest of the, schmucks, are left forever wanting.

You forgot doomed to hell also. Because that’s what Scripture clearly teaches.

Thank you TWW! That was hilarious!

After reading through hundreds of pages of John Piper writings, the one thing that stands out is how Piper sounds obsessed with trying to control women. He wants to control which careers they pick—Heaven forbid they might want to advance in their careers! He just keeps making up more and more rules for what he wants women to do. How could that not be LUST for CONTROL?

If anyone doesn’t believe me and wants to double check the sources, here’s the book where he tries to stop women from moving up the corporate ladder.

https://www.amazon.com/review/R2VX1SIIUS1IIM/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00265VGGO

Law Prof wrote:

Thing is, and I’ve learned this teaching on college campuses for the last decade and a half, you don’t have to stare at the tatas, there is no magnetic force other than your crummy, objectifying attitude, and you don’t have to let those images burn indelibly into your mind. If you do, you have no grounds to blame the woman, you are entirely to blame. Alcoholics drive by bars every day and don’t step inside.

Yes! The implication that he must lust after the flesh if it is exposed (even by strangers in the airport??) is so creepy.

Lydia wrote:

At my daughters Christian school in 7th grade, I was called into the principle office because in bible class they were discussing lying and my kid had the nerve to mention Rehab! That was considered disrespectful. I thought it would make for a lively discussion point and told the principle so. So much for education!

Your mistake was in assuming that education, teaching students to learn how to use their own insight and discernment, was the point. Indoctrination into a man-centered system in which the leader must not be challenged was evidently the point. This is the same as what’s stressed again and again in Christian churches, primary and secondary schools, colleges.

ishy wrote:

I personally think the basis for the whole modesty movement is bunk. I think it’s about whether or not these men think they are entitled to ownership of the women around them.

I can see modesty as virtue if that means acting in such a way as to not draw attention to myself or to assume self-importance. As in “We live in a modest home.” Or “She responded to the compliment with modesty.” But I don’t see that mindset as having anything to do with covering your collarbones. I would to teach my kids (male and female) to dress in a way that is comfortable and appropriate to the task at hand, not in a way that shows that some old guy at the airport may be upset by seeing their knees.

@ Lydia:
Yes, we disengaged from church altogether for a while. (I’m in the Deep South in an area where the SBC reigns.) It’s been hard to find a good alternative. Recently we’ve been worshipping at a liturgical church but haven’t jumped into youth group yet. I can remember some weirdness with my own youth group experiences (like one leader who was just a little too interested with hearing details about our struggles with sexual morality). It is such a delicate time in life and faith. I would love for them to have the support system but it’s so hard to make sure it’s healthy.

Here I am still trying to discern the meaning of his “sexy stones” tweet.

There is something wrong with this man.

I haven’t read every comment yet, but I was wondering how Piper might react if he happened to come upon a woman breast-feeding her baby. Isn’t that one of God’s methods of nurturing or would Piper see it differently?

Caroline wrote:

ishy wrote:
I personally think the basis for the whole modesty movement is bunk. I think it’s about whether or not these men think they are entitled to ownership of the women around them.
//
I can see modesty as virtue if that means acting in such a way as to not draw attention to myself or to assume self-importance. As in “We live in a modest home.” Or “She responded to the compliment with modesty.” But I don’t see that mindset as having anything to do with covering your collarbones.

I was trying to specify the modesty movement (also called purity culture) as opposed to modesty as a moral ideal or virtue. There is a movement in churches that seeks to blame women for things like rape based on what they wear. Not only do I believe their premise is false, but I believe that what women wear has very little to do with sexual harassment. I think it’s all about entitlement over other human beings.

@ ishy:
I agree completely. Sorry if I didn’t say that well. I just think it’s interesting that what they call “modesty” has little to do with actually being modest and is often promoted by people who are not at all modest.

I agree completely re: purity culture. It is among the toxic church baggage that I would prefer to keep away from my family, especially my young daughter.

Max wrote:

emily honey wrote:
Then you think your “sin” is everyone else’s sin and everyone needs what you need and to do what you do and so on. It’s all very self-centered and exhausting.
I was young and now am old. Over my lifetime, I’ve noticed a strange pattern in pulpit preaching across America. Preachers who preach the hardest ‘against’ certain sins are sometimes exposed being ‘in’ those same transgressions. You can’t help someone out if you are in. Remember Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Dudebro Patrick, and other numerous subjects of TWW posts.

Yup, agree. Can’t stop from taking about sex in one form or another! Then it’s on to what one wears ( women of course ) lots of guilt hyped on about achieving holiness…..not much consistent teaching of the whole Bible.

Caroline wrote:

IMO lust is not merely finding someone physically attractive. It is something much darker and more obsessive. A way to combat lust is to realize that the one lusted after is actually a whole person, equal to oneself in worth, and not only a sexual object. Piper et al are unable to see attractive women in this (normal, healthy) way, so it’s no wonder that many struggle with lust and porn.

Exactly!

Max wrote:

The young reformers in my area refuse to display an American flag in their churches and recognize veterans in their congregations.

It ain’t just young reformers Max. Young liberals and progressives (at another blog) descended on me like hornets to a hiker in the Wisconsin woods for daring to advocate a live-and-let-live attitude toward Old Glory in the church sanctuary.

dee wrote:

Is there. anyway you can get it covered due to the medical issues that can develop? I know things are different in the UK so my question I probably naive.

Thanks Dee. You know that once you can fit your head in your bra then it’s all gone to heck 🙂
My case wouldn’t be picked up by the NHS because although my shoulders are a block of wood & I get fizzy hands & bits of my arms now & then, I don’t have serious enough effects, like damaged discs etc like some do. I’d also like to be able to choose my surgeon.It is a colossal pain in the everything & I either look like a frump or an ageing hooker dependent on my few clothes choices.scott hendrixson wrote:

It has been rumored that John Peter Piper is aesexual and propagates by division.

I laughed so hard & then I realised that means there would be actual Piper clones out there…shudders. Can you imagine being in a room full of different aged clones all fluttering hands & talking about being winsome?

Piper’s rant exposes one of my major problems with Calvinist theology. It’s two-faced.

On one hand Piper preaches about the salvation of “the elect” and how nobody can do anything one way or the other to earn salvation. God chose us eons ago and that’s that.

Yet, on the other hand, he appears to believe that having a stray lustful thought about a woman he’s not married to is enough to send him to Hell for all eternity.

So which is it?

Also, it goes without saying that if *that* is what sends people to Hell, then we’re all pretty much damned.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

Someone else may have already answered this.

It’s because, in their theology, women aren’t supposed to enjoy sex. They are merely supposed to endure it. (“Lie back and think of England.”)

Law Prof wrote:

My son in law, who used to make me absolutely insane with talk of pilgrimages to Minneapolis, doesn’t make a peep about Piper anymore. My daughter has been slamming him over the head with “emperor has no clothes” talk for two years, taking his notions apart one by one.

That has been my take on Piper for the last decade. I could never understand what our friends and acquaintances saw in him. I still don’t.

The emperor indeed has no clothes.

I was curious about Piper’s “Letter to a Would-Be Adulterer” so I read it. I don’t know why men commit adultery. I don’t know why women do, either, but he was not writing to women, so I will leave that alone. He seemed to think that men commit adultery only because a woman (besides his wife) is attractive and available and dressed revealingly. Maybe her knees are showing. Or her neckline is lower than is appropriate, not that he defined what inappropriate necklines are. All his reasons and solutions have to do with what I’d call basic lust, if I’ve remembered accurately. I didn’t read for the purpose of writing an analytical response, so perhaps I’m not recalling every point.

Anyway. It seems to me that lust plays a role at some point in the commission of adultery, but is it the only factor? Not having personal experience with it, I guess I can’t say definitively, but I would think there would be a lot of steps to get a man to the point of actually committing adultery. Many accounts (confessions) that I have read by repentant adulterers begin along the lines of, “We were just work/neighborhood/church/club friends and I never imagined that our chit-chat would eventually lead to an affair.” I don’t think I’ve seen any start with, “She wears a scoop neck t-shirt and Bermuda shorts to work in her yard and when she sits on her porch to cool off, her knees show. With a display of flesh like that, right there among the orange day lilies, it was no wonder I lusted after her.”

What struck me about this advice to young husbands is that the advice had nothing to do with a husband’s relationship with his wife, only about praying for the lust for other women to be removed. Seems like some encouragement to work on his existing marriage relationship would be in order. Communicating regularly with his wife, having a date night now and then, showing thoughtfulness and kindness to her, etc, etc. Maybe even suggesting that if he is having serious lust issues, to examine himself more deeply. I don’t know how “normal” lust is for men, the kind of lust that would prompt adultery. Apparently Piper knows a different kind of man than the ones I know. Apparently, most of the men I know are pretty decent men, the kind who don’t ogle women in airports or make reference to all the female flesh that is present at the beach and the water park, or walk around with their eyes either up on the clouds or cast down on their Chacos, so they won’t think a lustful thought upon seeing a woman’s body.

Maybe I should read the Piper article again. Surely he encouraged the lustful young men wavering on the brink of adultery to spend quality time with their own wives. But I’m not a marriage counselor like he is (?) so what would I know about it

Muff Potter wrote:

Old Glory in the church sanctuary

The young Calvinists down the road from me won’t even display a Christian flag, feeling that it takes away from God’s glory!

(Part 1)
Secular American culture suggests to girls that their only value is in their physical appearance, and girls are taught (via magazines etc) that men and boys will like them only if they are sexy.

So, (message received = ) if they want dates and boyfriends, they better look sexy.

The church – yes gender complementarian churches – send these same messages to girls and women!

When I was a kid, teen, and 20 something, I read a lot of Christian literature written from a gender comp perspective. In the last few years, I’ve seen more gender comp material on the internet.

Out of the stuff I saw as a kid and now, while on the one hand, comps tell women their “value is in Jesus” and to “dress modestly” they completely contradict themselves on this point by later telling girls and women that God wired men to be visual, so it is their godly duty to remain pretty, skinny, sexy, etc.

In all my years (and despite the fact I am a visually oriented woman), I’ve never once seen or heard a comp preacher or write advise his male readers to stay trim and in shape to look hot for women.

A few months ago on this blog, I linked to several blog posts by a famous comp woman (Kassian, I think?) who told girls/women in her post it is their duty to remain sexy, hot, pretty for their men.

Comps speak out of both sides of their mouths – they tell women / girls to look sexy but then scold them for possibly “enticing men” by being too sexy looking, so wear potato sacks or turtle-necks.

(Part 1 is above) –
(Part 2)
Do you know how I cope with all this complementarian bleating about dressing modestly and not turning men on?

I totally tuned out complementarian teaching years ago. I dress however I want to and don’t worry if a man would find my dress “too sexy.”

My time and life is too short to expend it obsessing on if my neck line shows too much.

Also, I wonder, what good does it do for the Pipers to lecture Christian girls and women to dress modestly when there are plenty of Non-Christian women out and about in public who don’t give a rip about this modesty stuff?

Soon or later if one is a Christian man, one will come across women (Non-Christian women) in public who are wearing thong bikini, min-skirts, or what have you.

Ergo, the onus is on men to control their impulses and thought lives.

In some Middle Eastern nations, a woman showing a bare ankle is considered hotty-totty.

I read about a woman journalist who said she was in the Mid East, laying by the pool at a hotel she was staying at, in a one piece suit most Westerners would consider modest, but she caught a Mid-East man pleasuring himself off in a corner (he was so turned on by seeing her arms and legs, he got turned on).

This stuff is so arbitary – what one man or one culture thinks is bimbo-ish, another one would not. There is no way a girl or woman can dress to please all these men who have different standards of decency.

Anyway…. Most Non-Christian women don’t even know who Piper is, nor would they give a rat about his modesty views even if they read about them.

Piper needs to learn to navigate the world as it is and take responsibility for his actions, instead of expecting all women to dress to whatever his arbitrary modesty standards are.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Having had tata surgery, five years ago for breast cancer, I agree.

@ Daisy:

Good points Daisy

Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.

If you want to read a truly sexualized book on male/female relationships, read ,’ The Total Woman’. It was a 70’s version of, sex and looks will get you all you want, in a Christian marriage. Truly popular rubbish.

Just wanted to alear folks I have 3 or 4 posts above that haven’t been published yet, so you may want to scroll up to see those (or not, if you find me or my posts really annoying)

Regarding:

John Piper received a miracle from God. He is totally free from wanting to have sex with anyone but his wife.

[some Piper quotes]
… I don’t think my disinterest in sex with other women is owing to deficient hormones

The first thing to say is that I consider this disinterest in sex with other women a pure gift of God’s sovereign grace.

… Don’t just ask him to keep you from giving into temptation. Ask him to take away any desire for any woman …

I know I beat this drum often (sorry to anyone who finds this annoying), but

– As an adult celibate, I feel the need to say a thing or two about this because I’ve seen a lot of false assumptions about adult celibates from the Christian community.

A lot of Christians would (or may) assume I’ve maintained virginity as long as I have because I lack a Libido, or because God “gifted” me with celibacy (ie., God removed any libido I may have).

My response to all that is: Heck no.

Yes, I have a Libido, yes I’d like to be having sex (preferably in marriage to a spouse), and no, God did not remove my desire to have sex, or grant me special abilities to withstand getting hot and bothered.

Being abstinent comes down to self-control and self-discipline, and anyone can do it. I don’t have a special gift, or power, or ability, nor do I lack a libido.

I’m just tossing this out there because I am afraid that Piper’s comments will be construed by some Christians to be applicable to everyone, or to celibate adults – it’s not.

Anyhow. As to the main point of the post:

It is kind of funny and frustrating how guys like Piper make his personal struggles EVERYONE’S problem.

So all women every where must obsess over their necklines, and (he assumes) all men every where must struggle with sexual or adulterous thoughts.

This can be fun. Let me play Piper’s game:

I, Daisy, love chocolate and have a hard time resisting chocolate, so everyone must have this same struggle.

All of you must banish chocolate from your homes. Avert your gaze when walking past the Candy aisle at your grocery store.

I hate cauliflower. Because I hate cauliflower, all of you must hate it, too and have a problem with it. Stay away from it.

I mean God worked a miracle to make cauliflower not just morally wrong, but physically revolting. That is one of the greatest works of divine grace I have ever experienced.

…It has freed me wonderfully to focus on other things, like pizza or ice cream.

scott hendrixson wrote:

Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

I had forgotten all about that! 🙂

AnonInNC wrote:

I’m a male and wouldn’t take fashion advice from Piper. I have no idea what he’s thinking by dispensing fashion advice to females. Then again, I have trouble comprehending a lot of his random, rambling thoughts.

I am tired of the complementarian double standards that underlie so many of these teachings of theirs.

Piper, Driscoll, all these other guys, assume that only men want and like sex, and only men are “visual” and notice if other people are attractive, and they also assume women only care about emotional stuff. What hogwash.

If these complementarian guys are going to lecture women to dress modestly, turn about is fair play.

I want to see blog posts by them where they admonish the men to stop wearing tight pants that show off their bulges (don’t mean to be crass), or stop wearing tank tops that show off their nice, muscular arms.

I have to add my funny tata story here. When my kids were young, maybe 5 and 7, they were awfully quiet one day while shopping. I guess I didn’t pay much attention. Just glad they were behaving. Years later my daughter finally told me what really happened. She had decided to pull a joke on her younger brother. She told him that he didn’t want to get fat when he grew up, because he would have to wear a bra like mom did. She pointed out all the big guys they would see, and told him that they were wearing bras. Kid bought it hook, line and sinker.

I live in east Texas, about 2 hrs from Dallas. Shame on me, I wore a tank top out in pubic today. It was about 90 degrees. Here in my neck of the woods, a lot of ladies don’t even wear bras in public. Piper would be having a fit. No where to look. They are everywhere. Especially the big busted ladies. I’m in the big busted group of ladies. Out in public I dress for comfort and modesty that fits with me. At home, it’s a different story. I may have to go put on the necessary undergarments if you stop by out of the blue. The tatas get very hot in this heat, even with AC.

Mae wrote:

Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.

A woman must not let herself go, must take care to ensure her appearance is sufficiently attractive and hot to her husband. However, she is a wanton woman leading men to the fires of hell if she makes herself look hot in a way that might attract the magnetic eyes of someone other than her husband. Quite the needle the wife of a modern day pharisee must thread.

Divorce Minister wrote:

Now, I do applaud Piper for seeking to avoid adultery. But as long as he locates the danger outside of himself–namely, all those “plunging necklines” etc–he is in great danger. Talk about blaming circumstances for one’s own choices!

I guess what I see in the Sermon on the Mount is not Jesus saying the issue is what women are (or more precisely, AREN’T) wearing but rather what men choose to think about said women. Emphasis ought to be placed upon the person–i.e. the man’s choice–and not on what others wear

Bingo! Excellent points.

@ Law Prof:
Yes. Threading the impossible….. it’s always a woman’s fault! 😉

Daisy wrote:

It is kind of funny and frustrating how guys like Piper make his personal struggles EVERYONE’S problem.

Over half of all sermons preached are likely pastors preaching to themselves, hoping they can cure themselves of whatever dread sin has overtaken them through the sheer passion of their sermon. Either that, or it’s simply projection, they want to shove their sin off onto others and point the long finger at the pews (or collapsible chairs). Have watched this game play out over 30 years and delivered dozens of sermons myself many years ago, and that’s my take.

scott hendrixson wrote:

Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

Just because of you, I looked up “Dr Bronner’s Castile Soap”>

The only thing I can compare the writings on it to are “Deep Thoughts” from Saturday Night Live.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

this fellow had grown up in Africa, where his parents served as missionaries. It was a rural setting, and “tatas” were a normal part of life, often quite visible.

I remember reading in a sociology class text book (back when I was in college) that in some African cultures, breasts are not considered sexual, so the women can and do walk around topless, and the men are not the least bit turned on.

In some tribe in Africa I read about, the thing that got the men turned on were the special patterns that women painted or tattooed on to their faces.

The example in the book I was looking at, the woman had a geometric pattern drawn on her face – that was went men in her culture found alluring.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

scott hendrixson wrote:

Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

Just because of you, I looked up “Dr Bronner’s Castile Soap”>

The only thing I can compare the writings on it to are “Deep Thoughts” from Saturday Night Live.

Been using Dr. Bronner’s since the 70’s – still using it today. I have a big bottle in the cabinet under my kitchen sink (peppermint, though the eucalyptus is also good), and cut it 40/60 with water to fill a pump bottle for my hand soap. Sometimes I wash my hair with it – gets the old scalp tingling. We used it for everything back in the day.

And guess what? The writings are still there on the bottle, and still pretty much the same! The main difference is that I can hardly read them now, my eyes are so messed up.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

ManaGAWD’s got a real dirty mind…

I clicked it expecting Baptist pastor Jack Schaaps (spelling) “Polishing the Shaft” video, but no.

@ Todd Wilhelm:
I don’t know how women react to Piper quotes, but I immediately am feeling at least a bisexual issue.

There is something something dominating his life. He can’t identify it, possibly because he abhors it/himself. Having said that, he can’t shut up about percieved sexual situations, or female bodies.

Of especial note is the idea that a woman who exercises,and develops a muscular body (what might be viewed as transitioning towards masculinity) is increasingly erotic. Yet, this muscular physique results in some undefined, but diminished sexual relationship.

Piper sounds like he is in some sort of total sexual obsession, simultaneous with an inability to function as a normal heterosexual male.

scott hendrixson wrote:

Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

Is that “Armenian” or “Arminian” folk music!!

Sorry – I apologise for such bad humour….

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

I have compared Piper to Steven Handy on SNL for years! It’s the same meaningless platitudes. Ha ha. But people take Piper seriously. I could never get it. He was silly even before the creep factor went off the charts.

Daisy wrote:

There’s just, IMO, something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe) about a guy saying the only reason he’s not committing adultery is because God removed all his desire for other women.

There’s “something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe)” about this guy in general…

Law Prof wrote:

Mae wrote:
Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.
A woman must not let herself go, must take care to ensure her appearance is sufficiently attractive and hot to her husband. However, she is a wanton woman leading men to the fires of hell if she makes herself look hot in a way that might attract the magnetic eyes of someone other than her husband. Quite the needle the wife of a modern day pharisee must thread.

It’s bizarre. DRiscoll blamed Ted Haggards wife for his “homosexual” encounter. She let herself go……

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

There’s “something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe)” about this guy in general…

There sure is – he’s a vacuous freak, who has somehow gotten himself taken very seriously, idolized in fact, by a certain corner of the evangelical world. That’s disturbing to me…

@ scott hendrixson:
Shaft as in ” what you sayin”? Like the 70’s, Shaft?

I have not thought of him in years. ROTFL!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

I flew through Minneapolis airport twice in the past two weeks and didn’t see any “salacious ladies”.

Clearly you were not looking hard enough 😉

Divorce Minister wrote:

Like Dee explains, divorce seems to be the greater sin (than abuse and adultery) in the practical theology of Piper. It is sad.

Every time I hear of “Divorce Is The Unpardonable Sin” preaching, I wonder if that’s because if it wasn’t, the preacher’s wife would leave him in a heartbeat.

Lydia wrote:

I have been around Piper and sadly his height brings him almost eye level to many ta tas. That could be the source of his real problem.

Something about your comment makes me want to
Dedicate this song to John Piper:

Brick House by the Commodores:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLmwskmsGg

elastigirl wrote:

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):

i feel sick…

truly, that wins the grand prize for objectification of women.

I’m with you, elastigirl. What weird disgusting nonsense. And yet, his fans and apologists will be nodding in agreement. Because he said it. There are whole realms of so-called evangelical so-called Christianity full of preachers and their fans like this.

It is very disheartening. All I can think of is the damage they’re doing to the Kingdom. They are ignorant know-nothings, worshipped by ignorant know-nothings, and Jesus is nowhere in sight with them. How do they dare?

Lydia wrote:

DRiscoll blamed Ted Haggards wife for his “homosexual” encounter. She let herself go……

Have you seen Driscoll lately? He has let himself go really bad. No more spiky hairdo and that necklace-thing he used to wear.

Kathi wrote:

I work at a large athletic company and our current screen saver when you log out of the computer is an image of the newest athletic bra coming out – worn by a woman. So every logged out computer screen shows covered boobies! Oh, the horror! Piper wouldn’t last 2 seconds. It’s a female body, get over it! I can’t wait to try this new sports bra. It looks fantastic!

The company I retired from last December (after 17-1/2 years) owned Playtex, Bali, Maidenform, and Champion. (We also introduced Wonderbra to an unsuspecting world, but its time has come and gone.)

IOW, I hear ya!

Max wrote:

He has let himself go

Let himself go? Why, then his wife can’t be blamed if she has an affair. According to his own teaching.

What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

Good grief, Piper and Co would have a terrible time on beaches in Europe where little girls wear just swimming shorts.

Just for fun, if you’ve not seen this poetry excerpt before and I’m not duplicating—
Who wrote the poem and who published it for a God’s green earth to read?
Bonus question— Why did the publisher publish it?
“Her breasts are like rose-tipped apples of ivory,
And her belly is like a ocean wave, smooth and restful.
Her legs are like pillars of granite, strong and firm.
And her feet like those of a deer, swift and beautiful.
Her breath is like sweet nectar,
Her kisses like perfumed flowers,
And her love like paradise.”
Googling (and ogling) not fair…

@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:

I love Dolly despite hating country music, she is one of the most consistent public entertainers out there.

refugee wrote:

It’s because, in their theology, women aren’t supposed to enjoy sex. They are merely supposed to endure it. (“Lie back and think of England.”)

Yep. That is a point I think I mentioned above somewhere. In a lot of complementarian views, only men want/like sex, all women only supposedly want emotional connection and have zero libido.

Kathi wrote:

Daisy, sounds exactly like Lori Alexander too!

Hey, now that you mention it, yes it does!

Nathan Priddis wrote:

Piper sounds like he is in some sort of total sexual obsession, simultaneous with an inability to function as a normal heterosexual male.

and etc other quotes by Piper.

Piper in this regard reminds me of Mark Driscoll. Driscoll once wrote some bizarre comment (in a post or book??) about how if a guy, um, self pleasures himself while looking into a mirror, he is probably homosexual or might turn homosexual

I see comments like those, or these ones by Piper and think these guys are revealing far more about themselves than they are illuminating or educating others about avoiding sexual sins, or telling us what the Bible says about sexual stuff.

@ dee:

Haha, thankfully he hasn’t deleted it, so you can still see him getting mercilessly roasted in the replies

https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/873970685588246528

Max wrote:

Have you seen Driscoll lately? He has let himself go really bad.

So, if his wife Grace has an affair, we can all say it’s because “he let himself go.”

clarissa wrote:

Good grief, Piper and Co would have a terrible time on beaches in Europe where little girls wear just swimming shorts.

Not to mention grandmothers who wear bikinis (especially on Majorca) and are not the least bit ashamed of what they are.

Lydia wrote:

Did you hear Greg Laurie is, too? Mohler has to find money somewhere to keep flowing.

Laurie’s from my stompin’ grounds. His mega-biggie is just a piece yonder East on the 91 fwy.
I wonder what his angle is with Mohler? Is he going to covert to neo-reformed?

Daisy wrote:

So, if his wife Grace has an affair, we can all say it’s because “he let himself go.”

Absolutely!

Is Barnabas Piper still at Lifeway?

Edward wrote:

Haha, thankfully he hasn’t deleted it, so you can still see him getting mercilessly roasted in the replies
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/873970685588246528

Those are some of the most mazing replies ever.

Muff Potter wrote:

It ain’t just young reformers Max. Young liberals and progressives (at another blog) descended on me like hornets to a hiker in the Wisconsin woods for daring to advocate a live-and-let-live attitude toward Old Glory in the church sanctuary.

I came unglued on the Sunday after 9/11 because the American flag had been folded in a wreath and hung from a processional cross in the narthex at an Episcopal church I was attending. I knew that more than Americans had died in the Twin Towers and absolutely lost my cool. My days were not long for that church.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

“That peculiar desire to be intimate with Noël has never shifted onto another woman.” – Piper

To me Piper’s use of the word “peculiar” to describe his desire for his wife, is very revealing.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Every time I hear of “Divorce Is The Unpardonable Sin” preaching, I wonder if that’s because if it wasn’t, the preacher’s wife would leave him in a heartbeat.

Ding, ding, ding! I think we have a winner.

My former pastor, when he was in the middle of seducing one of the vulnerable women in the church, would preach, “If your spouse isn’t making you happy, leave them.” He was daring his wife to leave. Then, after she would reach her toleration limit and confront the ‘other woman,’ and the excrement would start flying, he would preach that there was never, under any circumstance, a valid reason for divorce. He preached to her constantly. And it’s interesting that she would confront the other woman, before she would confront him. And then she would do the clean up/cover up, shifting all the blame onto the ‘other woman’ and taking on the role of victim. Very strange and unhealthy dynamic. And they are not complementarian, though they have latched onto the shepherding and covering thing…

scott hendrixson wrote:

Edward wrote:
Haha, thankfully he hasn’t deleted it, so you can still see him getting mercilessly roasted in the replies
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/873970685588246528
Those are some of the most mazing replies ever.

And I’ve taken a screenshot as I am sure many have. Should that disappear it will come back to haunt him.

Side note: if you ever want to capture a screenshot of a full page, install Fireshot. It actually moves down the page and captures everything and allows you to save it as a PDF or image.

Daisy wrote:

Max wrote:
Have you seen Driscoll lately? He has let himself go really bad.
//
So, if his wife Grace has an affair, we can all say it’s because “he let himself go.”

According to New Calvinists I know, it doesn’t work like that. Particularly Driscoll, and likely Piper, will take Bruce Ware’s theology that women are made for men and therefore only the men get privilege of choice. We’ve already seen a huge number of excuses and passes given to men who have affairs or sexually abuse others for any reason those men desire, but I can only imagine if a woman does the same she’d have to endure years of church discipline and verbal abuse, as well as long-term harassment, whether she sought a divorce or not. Probably eventually would have to if that happened.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Daisy wrote:
There is no way a girl or woman can dress to please all these men who have different standards of decency.
I dress according to the circumstances: maybe a tank top and capris; maybe an above the knee skirt; maybe blue jeans with two sets of thermal underwear, thermal socks, hiking boots, and a holster on my hip.
I decided a long time ago that if you (generic) don’t like the way I look, you are more than welcome to find something else to look at!

Well, doesn’t that just make sense, dressing for the circumstances!!

I’d like to know how many sermons have been preached on mens appearance? How, many sermons on, ” letting themselves go”, has caused their wife to have wondering eyes?

This stuff is such foolishness. Where in the bible are the rules for dressing modestly? Did Jesus ever preach a sermon on busty women being a distraction? How he couldn’t go to Nazareth without seeing too many “boobs” displayed? And by gosh, he was single.

Are there people ,male/female, who wear clothing, or no clothing, around us? Yes! What does that have to do with how I conduct myself?

Beakerj wrote:

It’s like driving through a rioting zoo where everyone is determined to die at speed.

I can empathize. Once I was a tourist in holiday on a bus and imagined the reaper sitting next the driver, who imagined he was Lewis Hamilton. I feared he’d tip us over as we careened through 500 yo streets at 50mph trying to set a new course record.

Lydia wrote:

Did you hear Greg Laurie is, too?

Yes, I heard Laurie joined SBC. I’m still trying to figure that one out, wondering who recruited him to SBC ranks. As an evangelist who was part of the Jesus Movement, he doesn’t seem to fit with Mohler and the boys … they sure don’t talk about Jesus much.

Max wrote:

Is Barnabas Piper still at Lifeway?
Yes, he is on Lifeway’s Leadership Development Team. He recently divorced.

How can he develop leaders when he couldn’t “lead” his wife? Ya gotta feel a bit sorry for a guy raised by the man who retranslated Eph 5:25 as “Husbands, lead your wives just as Christ led the church”.

Serious question: What does this mean?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/884412276006154240

Incidentally, I had a quick butcher’s hook at the Wiki article on National Women’s Equality Day; it seems the President is “authoriz*ed and requested” to proclaim it. Moreover, as far as I can discover, Congress was Democrat-controlled in those days. I’m slightly surprised that weird new orange laddie hasn’t repealed this.

* yes, I know. But the zed is in the original.

#SaveTheTatas!

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Steve wrote:
Serious question: What does this mean?
It means Piper needs professional help.

Well… the building in the fotie is, unless I’m very much mistaken, the magnificent and iconic chapel of King’s College, Cambridge. Looks like a Kings student has hacked his twitter account. Or maybe satan has hacked his twitter account and just borrowed a stock fotie. Hard to tell.

Dave A A wrote:

I can empathize. Once I was a tourist in holiday on a bus and imagined the reaper sitting next the driver, who imagined he was Lewis Hamilton. I feared he’d tip us over as we careened through 500 yo streets at 50mph trying to set a new course record.

Reminds me of a true story some years ago of when a speeding driver was pulled over shortly before the British round of the Formula 1 world championship.

Police laddie: Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?
Driver: Actually, I’m Ayrton Senna.

And it was indeed he.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):

I agree. But what is he talking about in this tweet? Is the subject being addressed theological or medical or other?

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Or maybe satan has hacked his twitter account and just borrowed a stock fotie.

Or maybe Piper has lost his mind.

elastigirl wrote:

i feel sick…

truly, that wins the grand prize for objectification of women.

It truly is a terrible teaching. Piper is the kind of false teacher we were warned about in the Bible.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Then why does he not just implant a wire in his pleasure center and turn on the trickle-current?

Reminds me of a Michael Crichton novel I read in my youth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal_Man.

Benson is learning to initiate seizures involuntarily because the result of these seizures is a shock of pleasure, which leads to him having more frequent seizures.

Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” probably has some kind of similar effect – always looking for the next pleasurable high, the next pleasure jolt. This is a very fleshly way of living that has no support in the Bible.

Steve wrote:

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I agree. But what is he talking about in this tweet? Is the subject being addressed theological or medical or other?

The tweet is linked a blog post on Desiring God where the author “pseudo-sacrifice” makes the point that evangelical churches are a tool of Satan. It seems to taunt those condemned to hell at birth. It’s like criticizing children in poor neighborhoods because they don’t have the same opportunity as others.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Police laddie: Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?
Driver: Actually, I’m Ayrton Senna.

Though I commented just as Hamilton was taking the checkered (or is it chequered?) flag, at first I was going to say Jackie Stewart. But that would date me. Then I thought of Graham Hill and his tragic London crash. (his plane, not car).

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” probably has some kind of similar effect

I know we frequently think Piper has lost it and needs professional help, when his illness may indeed be Christian Hedonism itself.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

And I wonder why they don’t take comments.

Because like children, serfs are to be seen and not heard.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

And I wonder why they don’t take comments.

Because this way, no one can contest the horrible theology coming out of that camp. Everyone just reads it and agrees because it is coming from Piper or his Piperetts . . .

Muff Potter wrote:

And so long as the serfs are taxed beyond their limits to finance the war, what could be better?

Oligarchs in church leadership now, one and all? It’s a thing?

Federer.

Muff Potter wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Mohler would be the Pope.
Dunno about that. Laurie has an ego as big as Jupiter’s red spot. So does Mohler. They might hafta’ duke it out like the alpha males on Game of Thrones.
And so long as the serfs are taxed beyond their limits to finance the war, what could be better?

I think it’s a whole movement of ego males, so eventually they were going to start chafing at the system they themselves set up because they do believe somebody has to be in charge of everybody else.

They’ve tolerated each other doing stupid stuff for a long time, but it’s about time they started in-fighting.

dee wrote:

So, due to the subject matter at hand, lots of comments are going unto moderation.

Yeah, tennis is like that sometimes.

ishy wrote:

They’ve tolerated each other doing stupid stuff for a long time, but it’s about time they started in-fighting.

With mega egos in proximity: inevitable.

JYJames wrote:

ishy wrote:

They’ve tolerated each other doing stupid stuff for a long time, but it’s about time they started in-fighting.

With mega egos in proximity: inevitable.

The Universe Cannot Have Two Centers.
Let the Game of Thrones begin.

Muff Potter wrote:

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

And I wonder why they don’t take comments.

Because like children, serfs are to be seen and not heard.

The only reason for a serf’s existence is the enrichment and convenience of his Highborn Milord.

Dave A A wrote:

Just for fun, if you’ve not seen this poetry excerpt before and I’m not duplicating—
Who wrote the poem and who published it for a God’s green earth to read?
Bonus question— Why did the publisher publish it?
“Her taters are like rose-tipped apples of ivory,
And her belly is like a ocean wave, smooth and restful.
Her legs are like pillars of granite, strong and firm.
And her feet like those of a deer, swift and beautiful.
Her breath is like sweet nectar,
Her kisses like perfumed flowers,
And her love like paradise.”
Googling (and ogling) not fair…

I think this stayed in customs too long for anyone to make guesses. So I’m reposting with one modification.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” probably has some kind of similar effect – always looking for the next pleasurable high, the next pleasure jolt.

Isn’t that called an Addiction/Tolerance response?

And (in almost so many words) was the motivation for the Cenobites in Hellraiser‘s Hell of the Labyrinth? Always going for greater and greater “Sensation” (without mortality to set an upper limity) to cut the utter boredom of Hell?

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

ZechZav wrote:

This is his “Christian Hedonism” put into effect.

I don’t understand why more people don’t seem to see his false teaching for what it is.

“For God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
— favorite Bible Bullet of End Times types from my time in-country, always referring to the other guy

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Historically, it seems a bit odd when going topless coincides with equality – we’ve come a long way, it seems..!

Well, when all you have left are First World Problems…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A

Nathan Priddis wrote:

There is something something dominating his life. He can’t identify it, possibly because he abhors it/himself. Having said that, he can’t shut up about percieved sexual situations, or female bodies.

Like Ted Haggard giving Fred Phelps a run for his money before he got caught with a Rentboy?

“You can tell when a preacher’s in trouble when he stops preaching what he’s for and only preaches what he’s against.”

@ Daisy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwvUQBOnW6o
We’ve got a regular Dr Demento show going in this thread…

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Lots of alone time, ringing for tea, but alone time.
The life of a loner entity at the top and accountable to no one, especially and even the subordinate wife (as opposed to life partner).
Reading and writing, on the computer, to churn out speeches, books, posts, words – lots of.
Going to inappropriate sites, to see what the active boys and girls are doing?

@ Dave A A:

is blech a reasonable reaction? TMI especially considering the people.

but certainly illuminating. weirdweirdweird

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

My daughter is really into that wee ADHD laddie’s “First World Problem” videos. He offers a remedy:

 Here’s a lid, and a cup full of water. Now shut the full cup.

Well, now the Doctor is going to have tatas and the internet is having a breakdown…

Dave A A wrote:

Her taters are like rose-tipped apples of ivory

Sounds vaguely like Solomon, but I’m pretty sure taters had not made their way to the ME yet. 🙂

The Holy Spirit wrote those words, according to Piper’s doctrine of inspiration, so that might be problematic for Piper’s fastidiousness. The first publishers would have been the temple scribes, I suppose. The purpose has been debated, and I am undecided, though Driscoll certainly had no doubts.

Gram3 wrote:

There is not one word of devotion toward her which fixes his attachment to her only

Is there devotion in hierarchy? What kind of devotion is it?

Lydia wrote:

I often wonder if the whole push is to create a super denomination that dominates the Christian Industrial Complex in publishing, conferences, plastic fish sales, etc, That would not be a hard sell to mega church pastors.

Enigma Babylon One World Faith?

elastigirl wrote:

@ Dave A A:
is blech a reasonable reaction? TMI especially considering the people.
but certainly illuminating. weirdweirdweird

Yes. If I found poetry about my mom’s taters, I’d feel sick and destroy it. Pastor John, not so much.

Gram3 wrote:

Sounds vaguely like Solomon

It’s Bill Piper writing about John’s mum, inspired by the Song of Songs. John published it, which reminds me of the curse of Ham.

I’ve heard quite a few SGM women talking about how the modesty teaching has turned them off from their husbands. The modesty teaching completely invalidates everything these men professed to their young brides in their vows. To have a pastor administer the wedding and then spend much of the marriage talking about how the men are just animals with instinctive cravings leaves women really doubting the sincerity of their husband who professed love for them and a Covenant with God to be faithful. Are men really capable of love or care? And, if they aren’t, then do women really want anything to do with them? A lot of women had said the teaching of both Piper and Mahaney have really led to a physical revulsion of their husbands.

CLC, in the wake of the SGM split has had so many divorces, I don’t think they even know who is together and who is not. I know at least some of those had to do with the revulsion women felt towards their husbands due to the purity teachings.

I belong to an adult Sunday School class where most of the members are in their 70s and 80s (I’m just going to be 60). I wonder if Piper would find the following story that was shared in our class this morning even slightly funny:

The bride to be is 89. The groom to be is 92. They walk into a large pharmacy and find the manager. They have all kinds of questions for him.
-Do you carry medications?
-All kinds.
-Walkers, canes, and toilet seat risers?
-All the latest models.
-Ointments, suppositories, hemorrhoid creams?
-We have a full supply.
-Adult diapers? –
-In every size and style.

The couple talks to each other in low voices, and come back with a reply.
-We would like to use your store as our bridal registry.

We all howled.

Anybody remember Dr. Ruth Westheimer’s forays into the topic of human sexuality?
I still say that she makes way more sense than John Piper and Denny Burk combined.
Any day of the week and six-ways-to-Sunday.

Piper is seriously warped. Protests way too much, yet it’s clear from what he writes that he objectifies women just as much as the worst of what he’s supposedly protesting against. Here’s a novel idea. Treat people as people, full, whole, complete, and made in the image of God. Do that first, and other things have a way of falling in place. Including physicality and sexuality.

BTW, I was raised in a Muslim country. Very strict on dress. Big on modesty. Separation of men and women. The whole nine yards. Piper would probably have loved it if he could have given it his own theological gloss. But the reality was that if a young woman wandered into the bazaar without some kind of accompaniment for protection (usually a brother, uncle, or other guy), getting leered at, slapped, pinched or worse was nearly inevitable. It’s a sick system that warps a lot of people badly and treats a lot of people as subhuman.

A slight distance along a tangent line to the curve of this thread:

Is it just American men who seem obsessed with boobs and boob size?
Or is it pretty much a world wide thing?

@ scott hendrixson:

You have kept me highly entertained. Well done!

And they’re getting bigger, too, average dress size and all.

Tatas are not all fun and games. They are either too big or too little. They inevitably become too old and too ugly. Men ‘check them out’ with disgusting frequency. Clothing off the rack is never a perfect fit around the tatas. And then there are those who get carried away with their own cleavage such that their tatas tend to fall out when the bend over.

And mostly, any discussion of tatas would not be complete without the following:

http://www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/understand_bc/statistics

My tatas tried to kill me, so I had them cut off and sent first to the lab and then the incinerator. That will show them who’s boss, I guess.

Just saying.

Lydia wrote:

I often wonder if the whole push is to create a super denomination that dominates the Christian Industrial Complex

If this downward spiral is not halted by a genuine revival and spiritual awakening in America, Piper’s Christian hedonism will soon rule the church. When you go shopping, magnetic eyes will be watching your every move. If you join them for a season and then opt out, you will be shunned in your community … or excommunicated with the mark of the beast on your forehead.

@ Max:
The 1st Estate: Clergy, united with
the 2nd Estate: Rulers, united with
the 4th Estate: Media – cameras

over the 3rd Estate: RJP, the Real Jobs People or working class.

If that’s true, is it preferable to stay out of the Religious Industrial Complex? Looking at how Jesus dealt with this, the Romans and Jewish hierarchy colluding against him, Jesus was sort of in and out of the synagogues.

Max wrote:

If you ain’t got a spine, you won’t survive the days ahead in the American church. The devil is taking us on a ride. I praise God for a glimmer of hope here and there, but church at large is falling hook, line and sinker for popular movements and neglecting the Great Commission.

That seems to be so.

okrapod wrote:

Max wrote:
If you ain’t got a spine, you won’t survive the days ahead in the American church. The devil is taking us on a ride. I praise God for a glimmer of hope here and there, but church at large is falling hook, line and sinker for popular movements and neglecting the Great Commission.
That seems to be so.

Does seem that way unless the Almighty intervenes.

@ Lydia
BTW, good to have you back, Lyds.

okrapod wrote:

@ Lydia:
I don’t want to get crazy here, but is not one mega religion prophesied as one of the issues in ‘the last days’ and have we not seen from earliest Christian times the push for just that? And do we not hear the repeated lament about there being so many protestant denominations? So now there are folks who want to include non-Christians as somehow part of this hoped for (?) amalgamation whether they know it or not, and apparently whether they want it or not.
Now if the purveyors of that idea can just get money and politics to work together to push that agenda, well then…here we go again.

Didn’t you know? Pastors and Popea are now experts on the economies of countries, climate change, science (age of the earth), the marital bed, etc, etc.

Personally, I think tons of denominations are a healthy result of eschewing the “princes of the church” mentality that dominated Europe for a thousand years.

@ okrapod:
By the way, I have a Muslim friend (very moderate doesn’t even cover) who insists Yahweh and Allah are the same. Same for Jesus and Mohammad, as prophets. As long as no one is holding a gun to my head to agree or disabusing me of opportunity to pursue happiness because I don’t agree, I don’t see a big problem.

My problem are the thought police. Like what was done to liberal UK MP Tim Ferron. It wasn’t enough he supported liberal policies on issues, he was “bad” because he might think some of them were sin, as a Christian. That is all the media focused on. Did he think such and such are sin. Not how he voted on issues.

Thought police. (Who always end up turning on each other)

He resigned because he said he could not be a Christian and liberal MP.

@ okrapod:
Fellowship is paramount, and a subset of human relationship. However, the question is always, at what cost and for what benefit?

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

OH, boy. Here we go:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-you-cleave-and-leave-your-man
By Noel – shallow, impersonal, and immature IMHO.

Katherine Bushnell has a whole subchapter on leave and cleave found in Genesis that is interesting. Genesis communicates the opposite of how Noel positions the concept. It’s the husband who leaves and cleaves to his wife.

Dave A A wrote:

It’s Bill Piper writing about John’s mum, inspired by the Song of Songs. John published it, which reminds me of the curse of Ham.

Ewwww. There is something deeply disturbing about that “poetry.”

Lydia wrote:

Katherine Bushnell has a whole subchapter on leave and cleave found in Genesis that is interesting. Genesis communicates the opposite of how Noel positions the concept. It’s the husband who leaves and cleaves to his wife.

You beat me to it Lyds. I was just gonna’ suggest Bushnell’s writings on the ‘leave and cleave’ thing.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

OH, boy. Here we go: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-you-cleave-and-leave-your-man By Noel – shallow, impersonal, and immature IMHO.

I am a little confused by her article. I understand that, according to the subtitle, she has written the article to an unnamed adulteress…okay, fine. There is a place in the kingdom for that.

However, the only “leave” she implies (because she doesn’t really discuss it in detail) is the woman leaving the husband, which she semi-illustrates from the negative – she didn’t leave ‘Johnny’ and her parents who, though distant at least at one point, never divorced. Which, as some others have pointed out, is not quite how the concept of leave and cleave is written in Genesis.

In Genesis the editor/narrator appears to be attempting to explain a current practice (when Genesis was written/compiled) through an appeal to a historical one-time act. Men and women get married and form their own families because God made Adam and Eve and “joined” them together. In that sense, the “cleave” is similar to how Paul described Gentiles and their relationship to Abraham/Isreal in the book of Romans: the image of being ‘grafted’ in. Like an olive branch (Paul’s example) or a skin graft, the two different entities must be tied together, bound and left stable, so that they can grow into one over time.

@ Burwell:
Right, the leave in the Bible refers to leave your family of origin and then cleave to your spouse, and has nothing to do with adultery. Good observation, Burwell.

@ JYJames:
So the Noel Piper post bites the dust. Misuse of scripture.

@ JYJames:
Not sure I understand your meaning?

JYJames wrote:

Fellowship is paramount, and a subset of human relationship. However, the question is always, at what cost and for what benefit?

That brings up an interesting point. You are thinking ‘fellowship’ and I am not thinking ‘fellowship’ when it comes to church. I wonder is somebody has done a study as to church satisfaction based on degrees to which one values fellowship in relation to church.

okrapod wrote:

You are thinking ‘fellowship’ and I am not thinking ‘fellowship’ when it comes to church.

Church as “meeting together”, Hebrews 10:25, thus, “fellowship”?

Lydia wrote:

Thank you! I bet you are busy with Canning season, right?

Yuh huh. Taking a break right now while my tomatoes heat up!

Lydia wrote:

@ Dave A A:
Noooooo! That is creepy.

And likely violates the fifth commandment.

@ Dave A A:
Lol!

A woman can test herself in this arena by how she dresses her little girl. What kind of bathing suit do you put on your little two-year-old? Is it a cute little bikini? Or do you begin from the very start to teach this little girl that there is an appropriate way to dress? Are you preparing her so that by the time she is seven, eleven, or fifteen her whole mindset is, I dress appropriately, modestly, and not to entice or flaunt?

I can deal with discussions of modesty when they pertain to adults. But this comment is about children-7, 11, 15 years old. I worry when a grown man thinks little girls are enticing or flaunting their bodies. Is this insight into the mind of someone who blames the victim of sexual abuse-even when the victim is a young child. Or is it someone who sees children as sexual beings.

This comment bothered me.

Burwell wrote:

Men and women get married and form their own families because God made Adam and Eve and “joined” them together.

The cleaving is an ongoing volitional process, I think. Sometimes it will be more difficult than others. And sometimes it will be impossible. But clinging fast to one another is the ideal. I’ve been married a long time, and we are like those complicated braided trunk trees that are grown from little saplings. At this point, we are pretty much impossible to separate except by death.

@ Lydia:
Thanks for that biographical info. So his dad wrote that about his mom and John Piper published it. Wow. He must really hate his mom at a deep level.

Discerning snake oil theology/teaching/practice: How does it line up with…?
– the Bible
– scientific research
– honest discourse, such as TWW
– someone who is gifted by the Holy Spirit with discernment in the Body of Christ
– historical record
– the lifestyle of the speaker
– civil law and the Rule of Law
– the Common Good
What else?

Lydia wrote:

I did not discover until a few years back that American evangelism went through a big shift in the 1950’s. Seems Billy Graham is either blamed or hailed for it. I read a book written by a Calvinist on the division that practically positioned Graham as a heretic. I think the name of it is Evangelicslism Divided. .

I never read the book, but I have tried to say this numerous times here on TWW. Along came BG and everything changed. It really did. For better? For worse? Both/either? But I don’t think that any one man could pull that off. It was after all ‘that time’. Halberstam wrote a book ‘The Fifties’ I think, focusing on the changes going on in the society/ politics then just before it all went so public that nobody could miss it in politics and society in general. BG just rode the wave of a larger tsunami in our culture.

I graduated high school in 1952. Just before the revolution hit the door steps of the churches. Now think about this, this was not all that long after WW II and the massive turmoil of all that. Parts of the world crumbled, and parts of ‘religion’ took a huge hit. Even the Catholics not too long after went through a massive re-thinking of some of their most basic ideas. The War destroyed a lot of stuff, and in the rebuilding of ideas and expectations a lot of stuff looked really different when it got rebuilt.

We are still reverberating from the massive hit that western civilization took in the middle of the twentieth century. And there are still voices asking whether we are going to make it. The problem is that we do not all see ‘making it’ as the same sort of thing, including in religion.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
He must really hate his mom at a deep level.
And his dad.

Precisely.

I haven’t gotten close to reading all of these comments, but really, I don’t think being modest should be that complicated.

Dress in a way that shows respect for your own body.

If you need a rule, I think you can do a lot worse than “dress conservatively for your community”.

Gail L Cain wrote:

I can deal with discussions of modesty when they pertain to adults. But this comment is about children-7, 11, 15 years old. I worry when a grown man thinks little girls are enticing or flaunting their bodies.

The flashing yellow light comes on: “PEDO? PEDO? PEDO?”

Lydia wrote:

Seems the Calvinists and Fundamentalists had big problems with Graham.

Lydia,

I found Ed Stetzer’s move from LifeWay to Wheaton College to be strange. When he was at LifeWay he was deeply involved with the New Calvinist movement, even though he was elusive on his exact theological leaning. He is now Executive Director of the Billy Graham Center for Evangelism at Wheaton! Leaping from mixing with the New Calvinists in his role at LifeWay to his current position just doesn’t fit … there’s nothing evangelistic about New Calvinism. I have noticed that he has dropped off the radar screen in the reformed blogosphere since moving to Wheaton. Some of these guys play on both sides of the fence I suppose.

@ Max:
I have my theories about Setzer. He was THE supposed church planting expert at LifeWay. He milked that one good. Smart to get out right before the questions and demands for stats to be transparent became louder and louder. So what is the result from the 60 million Ezell spent on planting YRR churches?

emily honey wrote:

Generally, you seem to exist to them as a projection and extension of their own personal thoughts and issues without them ever getting to know you as an equal and individual.

I realize I’m really late to this conversation and its probably moved on, but I was reading this post on modesty that got a lot of comments…

One guy said he was raised in this culture and the thing he thought about what how if you run away from women you find attractive, you are never able to get to know them enough to know if they are or are NOT a decent person. You are never able to think of them as an individual with good or bad in them. I just thought that was interesting. (the whole thread was interesting, but sometimes maddening)

Great article! I haven’t read any of the comment thread, therefore I don’t know of the content discussed.

What I do know is that I listened to Piper for several years following leaving a highly authoritarian abusive church. I hopped from one abusive religious system to the next by absorbing more abusive doctrine. It took me some time to see through the religious fog concerning wolves in sheep’s clothing, finally freeing myself from Piper’s dangerous theology or lack thereof.

My conclusion is this (after reading the Gospel’s for myself); any pastor man, or woman for that matter, who focuses their theology on sex, sex, and more sex, is but a dried up branch on the vine, who knows not our Eternal Savior, Jesus, the living Christ, but prowls around like an imposter, desiring the godhood for themselves in luring people to follow and worship them, instead of Jesus. Jesus did say, “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” With His Words in mind, exactly what kind of fruits is Piper promoting when he constantly speaks about sex, sex, and more sex? Is his perverted mind focused on sex, and not the true Gospel? Did Jesus speak of sex constantly? Seriously?

I believe Piper is so worried about the exterior of people, that he may be forgetting that Jesus sees the heart, mind and soul of every man/woman. Personally, I’m not worried or concerned about the woman weight lifter, or the woman down the road with a great figure that looks fashionably great.

BUT, I am concerned with the man who promotes his form of false Christianity disguising himself as an angel of light. He loves to tell others how to live and yet, his very own house isn’t in order, so to speak.

Dear John Piper, please read the Gospels and take notes on how Jesus treated women, especially those who were accused, persecuted, shunned, and hated by the religious leaders of His day. And please, quit blaming women for the fall of all of mankind. Please, just quit.

Karen wrote:

My conclusion is this (after reading the Gospel’s for myself); any pastor man, or woman for that matter, who focuses their theology on sex, sex, and more sex, is but a dried up branch on the vine, who knows not our Eternal Savior, Jesus, the living Christ…

My conclusion (without the Christianese jargon) is that we’re getting an unwanted look into the “pastor man”s own sexual obsession and kinks.

I long ago concluded that Uber-Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just with different surface symptoms.

I fully expect the Pied Piper to one day hit critical mass and melt down into obvious delusion and/or a big and KINKY sex scandal.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

My conclusion (without the Christianese jargon) is that we’re getting an unwanted look into the “pastor man”s own sexual obsession and kinks.

I think that is the case often enough to be creepy!

I have a question about dressing “in such a way that [we] draw men’s attention towards [our] eyes”…is someone confused about where eyes are to the point where I need to point it out? How stupid are men in Pipers world, actually? Should we wear a shirt with an arrow that says ‘hey man, eyes up here’? Of all the dumb things they say, that’s one of the dumber ones.

Lea wrote:

I have a question about dressing “in such a way that [we] draw men’s attention towards [our] eyes”…is someone confused about where eyes are to the point where I need to point it out?

Or, we could tell the young men to look at a woman’s face when talking to her, because looking at her breasts is creepy and rude.

I don’t know about anyone else, but one thing that can guarantee I’ll look at a woman’s face is if her skirt is too short or her neckline is too low.

Tree wrote:

He seemed to think that men commit adultery only because a woman (besides his wife) is attractive and available and dressed revealingly.

That doesn’t explain relationships that start with conversations online, without even a picture. Or relationships where people actively seek out women such as the Ashley Madison thing. Or many other things.

His theory is wrong.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

I think they’re (Piper, Baucham, Grudem, Burk…et al) seriously terrified of women as something other than what they believe to be strict ‘Biblical’ roles which must be applied straight across the board, based solely on plumbing received at birth. Woman is a breeding vessel for the sperm-spewer (man), she’s a stationary egg-carrier, wandering eyes do not become her ‘Biblical’ place in the scheme of things.

@ Law Prof:
It’s a tweet that links to DG in what appears to mimic (imitate) The Screwtape Letters: (from wikipedia)

“The Screwtape Letters … by C. S. Lewis, … written in a satirical, epistolary style, … fictional in format …, is a series of letters from a senior Demon Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood, a Junior Tempter. The uncle’s mentorship pertains to the nephew’s responsibility in securing the damnation of a British man known only as “the Patient”.

JYJames wrote:

@ Law Prof:
It’s a tweet that links to DG in what appears to mimic (imitate) The Screwtape Letters: (from wikipedia)
“The Screwtape Letters … by C. S. Lewis, … written in a satirical, epistolary style, … fictional in format …, is a series of letters from a senior Demon Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood, a Junior Tempter. The uncle’s mentorship pertains to the nephew’s responsibility in securing the damnation of a British man known only as “the Patient”.

Interesting. It’s been 20 years since I’ve read the Screwtape Letters, don’t recall reading anything like that, but of course, the memory fades over the years.

@ Law Prof:
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Imitation.
Mentioned earlier, for example, Piper followed Mel Gibson’s film, “The Passion”, with a book on the same theme. The book didn’t succeed, though following a trend.

(It has been said that Satan is the Great Imitator. Originality comes from God.)

@ Tree:
Thanks for the link. Nice post by that Tall Dude.

@ Tree:
Lovely.

Steve wrote:

Serious question: What does this mean?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/884412276006154240

More and more I am concluding that Piper, or whoever tweets under his account, uses a random word generator of some sort to compose his esoteric and nonsensical theological ‘droppings’.

Or, perhaps he believes he is being poetic… However, constipated passions is meaningless in a theological context – but it would be an awesome band name.

Lea wrote:

That Wilson guy will say dumb things and then go back and say you just didn’t understand when they get called out. IT’s a game.

Lea, and other Wartburgers (is that correct, or am I thinking of Wahlburgers – je ne sais pas), have you visited the website The Truth About Moscow (http://www.moscowid.net/)? It is a site dedicated to exposing the lies and abuses of Douglas Wilson. The site is well chronicled and archived,especially when it comes to the Steve Sitler and Jamin Wight abuses and Wilson’s subsequent cover-ups, and reminds me of “Wenatchee the Hatchet”, only with better graphics.

It appears that while Wilson thinks of himself as a Reformed thinker and tough talking wordsmith, but in reality he is an overweight, alcoholic, abusive, paedophile-excusing dictator who has a penchant for italics, bowlers and smashing ceramic pots with Louisville sluggers.

And I was trying to be kind in my description.

@ Burwell:

i see john piper as self-perceiving as a prophet, believing that he can’t help but offer up divinely-inspired wordage. he see himself as beyond creative discipline — indeed, subduing words with skill would taint what comes from his direct connection with God (I suspect he’s thinking).

he writes what seems to ‘come to him’ — even if the source is his own internal word generator — and believes God is speaking through him. The more odd the more evidence of its supposed divine origins, both in his mind and in the minds of his followers.

but i suppose this is old news.

@ Burwell:
My favorite dolly quote was ‘I’m not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I’m not dumb… and I also know that I’m not blonde. – Dolly Parton’

Burwell wrote:

paedophile-excusing

Interesting term.

In an overview or review of a venue or a leadership:

– Are they pedophile-excusing? Evidence or examples, on record? If so, the venue doesn’t qualify as a safe place for families, youth.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

Sadly, there aren’t many men or women who are even aware this is a thing, even though it clearly exists if you look up the comments on any male model’s social media page. It’s a taboo subject that I’ve brought to attention lately in Christian circles because I myself have always struggled greatly with fixating on attractive guys, but there are no resources for this. Even the porn sites that are geared toward recovering women seem to only think we can get addicted to porn because of abuse. I was never addicted to porn out of abuse; I was a horny teenager who wanted to look at men’s bodies. Even now, I’m married to a handsome stud, and I can’t stand it that my eyes still wander to *other* handsome studs, as well. One athlete in particular caused me to stumble when he started modeling a couple of years ago (including au naturel). Saw the comments women left on his fan page, and I found out I wasn’t the only one…

I wonder how much more frequent this is among women than people realize.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

I third that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od9U762vvpM