“Do you want to be in our mob?" Elena asks him.
"When did we get a mob?" he says.
"We don't have one yet. I'm working on it."
Michael turns to me.
"It's got something to do with books."
"In that case," says Michael, "I'm in.”
― Paul Acampora, I Kill the Mockingbird link
Note to lawyers and Team Pyro friends: From this point forward, every time I use the word victims, put the word alleged in front of it. But know that I believe and stand with the alleged victims and applaud SNAP, Todd Wilhelm and others who have come forward in this matter. I can believe in something even if it is not proven. So, I can believe that Casey Anthony is guilty even though she was found *not guilty.* I believe the victims.
These last 36 hours have been incredibly trying. Next week, we shall discuss a new story that was brought to the attention of TWW. It involves a church in Massachusetts which is allegedly harassing and disciplining a woman who divorced her husband for abuse. We have become convinced of her story and are planning to do a series of posts on the matter. We have been down this road before. It involves:
- Wife abuse
- A *repentant* husband
- The wife being put under discipline for pursuing a divorce
- Membership covenants
- John Piper, CJ Mahaney and 9 Marks
- Wife under discipline in spite of legally resigning from the church
- Persistent and some might say, harassing, pursuit on the part of the church.
I have been in touch with the church and we all hope that they will do the right thing or the posts will commence on 12/14. In the meantime, there is another serious situation that has developed that caused me to be hounded by Team Pyro and others on Twitter because I believe the victims in the following story. The alleged perpetrator is Tom Chantry, a Reformed pastor friend of Frank Turk and others at Team Pyro.
Tom Chantry: Indicted on child molestation charges.
According to The Daily Courier in their story Former Prescott pastor charged with child molestation:
A minister in the Baptist church, who left the area 10 years ago, has been indicted on multiple counts accusing him of sexually molesting children in 1995, 1996, and 1998 to 2001 while he was pastor of a church in Prescott.
Thomas Jonathan Chantry, 46, faces five counts of molestation of a child, related to two minors, and three counts of aggravated assault on three separate minors as well.
One alleged victim, now an adult, came forward to Prescott Police and, according to a police report, when Chantry became a pastor at Miller Valley Baptist Church, Chantry told his parents that he wanted to tutor the victim, then “approximately 9 or 10 years old,” privately in his church office.
The parents consented, and the victim claims that, during his twice-weekly hourly meetings, Chantry would spank him, “grope him, rub him, and make him sit on his lap,” the report said.
The man, now 32 years old, said that, even during the abuse he claims was happening when he was a child, he knew it was wasn’t right.
“I definitely felt it was wrong, but it was one of those things—he was the pastor … and there was nothing I could do about it.”
The man knew of at least one other boy in the same alleged situation, the report said.
Chantry was arrested in July 2016. Apparently some of Chantry's friends have known about the charges since July. For most of us, the story fell a bit under the radar until Todd Wilhelm of Thou Art the Man (and official TWW hero) alerted us to the story. He wrote extensively on the situation. Note what he has to say here. We will get back to this shortly.
In what can only be described as sad news, I must report that Reformed Baptist pastor Tom Chantry has been indicted on five counts of sexually molesting children and two counts of aggravated assault with serious physical injury. Our hearts go out to the victims, Chantry’s wife and three sons, and his parents. Chantry’s father, Walter P. Chantry is well known and respected among Reformed Christian circles.
Wilhelm makes a rather interesting observation regarding Chantry and his defense of CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Below is an interesting article which appeared in the SGM Survivors blog several years ago. The title of the article is “Mystery Solved?” and it has gone a long way in solving a mystery for me. That mystery is why so many celebrities in the Neo-Calvinist camp have so stridently defended C.J. Mahaney. You will recall that Mahaney is credibly charged with covering-up the sexual abuse of children in the denomination which he previously was the head of. Well, guess what? Indicted child molester, Tom Chantry was a vocal defender of Mahaney and Sovereign Grace! A case of birds of a feather flock together? I wonder how many other Mahaney cronies are also hiding sexual abuse of children in their closets? It is a very plausible explanation of their fierce loyalty to Mahaney.
Wilhelm has extensively researched Chantry's writings. He presents a post written by Chantry looking at the Mark Driscoll and Tullian Tchividjian situations. Since Wilhelm posted on this a few days ago, Chantry's entire website has suddenly gone private. Never fear, Wilhelm, used to such responses, made sure to copy the entire post on his website.
Here is a quote from Chantry's article that seems perspicacious. Perhaps he had insider information?….
(To avoid)
Todd attempted to reach out to Chantry and this is what happened.
On being alerted to Chantry’s indictment on sexual molestation of children charges, I tweeted some information about the story and tagged Chantry in my tweets. It took Chantry about thirty minutes to block me! Sorry Tom, I don’t think you will be able to keep this a secret for long!
Who is Tom Chantry?
Since his website is no longer accessible, I found this information from The Aquila Report.
According to the Christ Reformed Baptist Church of Hale’s Corners, Wisconsin, website, where he is listed as Pastor, Chantry moved to Arizona after finishing his seminary studies in California, and stayed for five years. He next moved to Washington and then taught at a Christian school in the Chicago area for four years, before moving to the Milwaukee suburb of Waukesha in 2006. That’s where he was arrested in July, on a warrant taken out by Prescott Police.
Chantry was serving as t he pastor of Christ Reformed Baptist Church in Wisconsin at the time of his arrest. He has reportedly been placed on leave. One cannot access The Pastor's Blog in that website at this time. Here is how the church described him. This is a screen shot since this will probably be disappearing as well.
SNAP released a statement on this situation.
WI–Minister arrested on child sex charges; Victims respond
For immediate release: Wednesday, Dec. 7, 2016
Statement by David Clohessy of St. Louis, Director of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (314 566 9790, 314 645 5915 home, davidgclohessy@gmail.com)
A Hale’s Corner minister has been arrested on child sex charges. We are glad that he’s been caught but we’re disappointed in how his supervisors and colleagues are responding. We call on them to work aggressively to help law enforcement prosecute the offender and find – and help – any other victims.
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/nov/26/pastor-charged-multiple-counts-child-molestation/
Rev. Thomas Jonathan Chantry of Christ Reformed Baptist Church allegedly molested five kids between 1995 and 2001 in Arizona. But not is not the time for complacency. An arrest is not a conviction. Many times, we see shrewd predators get expensive lawyers and exploit technicalities, escaping convictions or long sentences. Then, sometimes the assault more kids.
So we call on Chantry’s current and former church supervisors, colleagues and members in Wisconsin and Arizona to use pulpit announcements, bulletin notices and church mailings to help law enforcement prosecute Rev. Chantry and seek out – and help – others he may have hurt.
These churches gave Chantry access to kids. So their civic and moral duty doesn’t end with his arrest. They must help put him behind bars and help ameliorate the severe harm he’s caused.
Ministers call themselves “shepherds.” In cases like this, a caring shepherd this admits there are likely other “lost sheep” out there, suffering in silence, shame and self-blame. He or she would use every possible method of reaching out to them – church signs, bulletins, mailings and pulpit announcements. Instead, most ministers do little but focus on protecting themselves from criticism and litigation. We hope this doesn’t happen here.
(Chantry reportedly is a well-known Reformed Baptist pastor, according to Brent Detwiler, a brave man who has publicly expose the cover up of child sexual abuse in Sovereign Grace Ministries. He has attacked Detwiler because of Detwiler’s courageous advocacy.)
No matter what courts or church officials do or don’t do, we urge every single person who saw, suspected or suffered child sex crimes and cover ups in institutions – especially in churches – to protect kids by calling police, get help by calling therapists, expose wrongdoers by calling attorneys, and be comforted by calling support groups like ours. This is how kids will be safer, adults will recover, criminals will be prosecuted, cover ups will be deterred and the truth will surface.
https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx
(SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, is the world’s oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims. SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 20,000 members. Despite the word “priest” in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, and Protestant ministers. Our website is SNAPnetwork.org)
Contact – David Clohessy (314-566-9790 cell, davidgclohessy@gmail.com), Barbara Dorris (314-503-0003 cell, bdorris@SNAPnetwork.org)
The official charges against Tom Chantry
Both yesterday and today, I was bombarded by the Team Pyro guys and others on Twitter. You will see that some questioned the extent of the charges, even claiming that it only involved in one victim who mentioned that there might be another victim. Like that matters but they were wrong. Several also questioned why it took 20 years for the alleged victims to come forward, showing a seeming lack of understanding that this is often the case in the sexual of abuse of children.
Thankfully, Todd Wilhelm posted Official Record of Arizona Charges Against Thomas J. Chantry. Look closely at these charges since they will give you an idea why i believe that these accusations are true although yet to proven. Todd lives in Dubai but cares deeply about victims.
Note the reference to two counts of aggravated assault and serious physical injury. Do you know what this means? An attorney who reads our blog sent me this definition. This means that the injuries are probably part of some medical evidence. In other words, it is not something one can claim off the top of one's head.
There currently appear to be separate categories in Arizona for aggravated assault serious physical injury and aggravated assault of minor. I don’t know if it would be Arizona practice to specify all aggravation categories in a charge if there are more than one. (The law of course may have been different at the time of the (alleged) assaults.)
For me, the inclusion of serious physical injury and the presumed requirement for medical evidence presumably in the form of existing medical reports from the time adds credibility to charges 6 and 7. These injuries and presumably medical evidence/reports assumedly cannot be the figment of someone’s imagination or part of a vendetta. Of course, there is the separate evidential question of how the serious injuries were caused.
When I said that I believed the victims and get accused of unleashing a lynch mob on the internet.
I took to Twitter to say that I believe the victims in this instance. Little did I know that Tom Chantry has his ardent defenders and they are a rather raucous group. R Scott Glenn @Heidelcast, accused me of:
using my holy fury to unleash a lynch mob on the Internet.
Let me state this clearly. I did not say that Chantry is guilty. I said that I believed the victims. I also object to the use of the term *lynch mob* because it has far too many ties to horrific racially motivated killings of African Americans in the United States. He also accused me of violating the 9th commandment "Thou shall not bear fas witness" which he claims I was doing by stating I believed the victims. Go figure.
Here are some other tweets to give you the jist of what was happening yesterday.
Please take special note of the comment that this molestation happened 20 years ago. When he refers to the term "high probability" it was in response to my comment that I believe that he has a high probability of conviction.
Amusing aside: I decided to form my own internet mob so that when I feel the holy fury setting in, I know who to contact.
One must smile in the midst of conflict. 
Things heated up when Team Pyro/Frank Turk showed up.
I continued to claim I believe the victims, much to this dismay of Turk and his friends. This unleashed all sorts of accusations towards me and others. In all my years of blogging, I have never seen such a barrage of Tweets. Here are some examples.
Turk says I do not have my facts straight when, in fact he is in error with this next claim.
Then he really hits below the belt. 
Frank Turk found out that he was wrong about the *facts* of the charges and released this statement.
I am going to quote from part of it. Please read the entire statement.
The Watch-blogosphere has finally uncovered this link [http://bit.ly/2hel18n], which is reporting something that even the local news relative to the events is handling with kids gloves and not as some kind of crime wave. But: because the person arrested and indicted has a long-standing association with me via the internet, these ambulance-chasers are coming around to play a few innings of "stump the blogger."
First, let me say this: you really have no idea what my family has ever been through. You have no idea whether or not we have ever been inside one of these situations, and you have no idea whether or not we have seen this sort of thing from the inside. So before you say anything about my conscience toward victims or whatever other accusation you can muster, ask yourself if you know enough about my life to say anything which means anything other than you mean to take a pound of flesh from someone you think isn't going to respond — or worse, can afford to take the hit. If what you mean to do is gin up your own audience to bring the torches and pitchforks to my doorstep for the sake of your follower count, make sure you are ready for what really lies inside the castle outside of town.
Regarding the contents of that link, there are at least 3 things which I think are important to consider from a Biblical standpoint: human legal justice, God's eternal justice, and my obligation as a Christian brother to Tom Chantry.
…From a perspective of God's eternal justice, if Tom did the things he is accused of, he is already convicted in his heart and before the true judge of what is right. God is the one to whom Tom owes an explanation — if he is guilty. To me? Tom has been a friend and a truth-teller in all manner of hard situations, and I cannot believe that his approach in those circumstances came from either a seared conscience or a false heart. This means there is another aspect of God's justice I need to consider: what if I accuse and convict Tom when he is, in fact, innocent? Who am I before God if I treat my innocent brother like a criminal? What have I done to him before God? So as God has and will judge Tom, God is judging me — and I seek to do what He would have me do in these circumstances, not what an angry mob is asking of me.
Are most people too quick to believe in the guilt of an accused abuser? I was blamed for this today.
Our good friend, Yvonne Trimble, is now a member of my holy fury mob. Her title is *Warrior Princess. Thank you to Yvonne Trimble for the following.
Finally, applications are now being accepted for my mob. I regret to inform you that the positions of Distributor of the Pitchforks; Chief of War Games; The Grand Overseer of the Trebuchet; Warrior Princess; The Heads of the Right and Middle Flanks along with The Keeper of the Bullhorn Who Screams "Hate!", have been taken. But there are thousands of positions to be filled. Take heart!
Just one look through Frank Turk’s Twitter will reveal all you need to know about him. As I tweeted earlier:
Out of the abundance of the heart a Twitterer tweets.
Hey! Am I first?! And to think I almost went to bed. Early. On Friday night.
oops – – FIRST!!!!
More here http://www.mysouthnow.com/story/news/local/hales-corners/2016/12/08/hales-corners-pastor-facing-charges-child-molestation/95112878/
Another alleged victim claimed, according to a separate report, that Chantry spanked her and her brother “a lot harder than they had ever been spanked before.” The report also said, “she stated that there was not only physical abuse, but a lot of mental abuse. She stated that when Chantry would hit them he would tell them not to tell because God would be mad at them.”
According to a police report filed in January 2016, an elder of the church reported that Chantry had, during a private meeting, admitted to spanking some kids at the church and said that “maybe he had taken it too far.” He added that Chantry apologized to one of the families and left the town a few days after.
This happened in my city. I am familiar with the church, but never attended there. I never met the pastor but I believe the victims.
Here is the latest from the Courier http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/dec/09/group-speaks-out-
I’d be glad to help keep the mob’s torches lit. I’ve been told I get “lit up” about stuff, so it ought to come naturally.
Yeah, Frank Turk blocked me today after a barrage of tweets.
Is position of Rabbit of Caerbannog taken?
@ Tree:
You are hereby appointed Keeper of the Flame!
@ Julie Anne:
Can you believe the necrophilia comment? Is he sick or what?
@ Tree:
Missed it by just a little.
@ Richard:
The link doesn’t work. Could you pls repost it? Thanks.
@ Richard:
If anything pops up in local new sources, could you keep us posted? Thank you!
I’ve been following this and the amount of fury that just mentioning this case has unleashed has got my radar up.
I had an amusing incident when I was a teen. I had bought a new necklace but when I went to wear it the next day, it was missing. My sisters and I often borrowed things from each other, so I asked my sister if she’d borrowed my necklace. To my surprise, instead of a yes or a no, she absolutely blew up at me! She rather threw a fit about my audacity to accuse her of such a heinous crime. What did I think she was, a thief? A common criminal? How dare I! I asked, could you just let me see under your coat, then? And that’s when she really went ballistic! Heheh. Well, I let it go, but later that evening I peeked into my sister’s room and there was my necklace with the other things she’d just changed out of. I love my sister and we laugh now about these incidents from our long-ago youth, but I learned something that day that has always stuck with me and I’ve seen it illustrated time after time: when someone protests way too strongly about something, there’s most likely a really good reason…
I never heard of this guy before, but after reading these quotes, I feel like I know a whole lot. People don’t realize how much they give away about themselves in a rant. Funny thing is, I didn’t see anyone accuse him of anything. All anyone wanted him to do is try to find out if there are other victims.
The fourth thing that he completely missed is the most important thing: are there are more victims out there suffering who need to be sought and found? What if someone is on the verge of suicide this very night? What if someone is barely holding on and the Lord is pushing you to reach out to that person?
Can’t they reach out without worrying about whether their friend is innocent or guilty at this stage? If they reach out and no one responds, then okay. No harm done. Or maybe their real fear is that others will come forward?
These guys are so egocentric. It’s all about them and their friend.
One other thing I’d like to say. Yes, the man is legally innocent until convicted in a court of law. But- I have yet to see one of these pastor/child molester stories in the news that turns out to be a false accusation. I have seen a few that could not be prosecuted because of technicalities (statute of limitations passed) but I’ve not yet seen one turn out to be a false accusation. I’ve seen many claim they were innocent, only to admit by degrees that it was true after all, as more information came out. So I take their protestations with a big grain of salt. Maybe this will be the first time- time will tell. But in the meantime, possible victims are all I care about. Are there people out there who need help? Are there people out there who are not okay? That’s where my heart is.
Richard wrote:
Here is another link to the article http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/dec/09/group-speaks-out-alleged-church-sex-abuse-case/
I am honored to accept the position of Keeper of the Flame. I hereby solemnly pledge to aid all who spread light and heat in their occupations of casting illumination on devilish deeds done in darkness and in holding holy fire under the feet of those who either commit said deeds or provide cover for the commission of such.
Julie Anne wrote:
Yikes.
I was going to take William Wallace, a nod to my Scottish homeland, then I remembered that was already taken (ew!). I’ll go with Wartburg Minion.
Ew is right. Good catch, Wartburg Minion!
Frank tweeted "your moral vacuum" ? That is ironic coming from him. Back in the Team Pyro hay day they had no problem pointing fingers (ed.) at any and all groups. Just go search team pyro concerning Biologos, emergent church, etc. They would have a long tirade of the horrors concerning "thought crimes" against their apologetic. Read through Mr. Turk's open letters to a variety of online/ offline personalities and the cream of the crop, the SGM churches team pyro let people speak under very heavy moderation. The apparent bait and switch tactics used in the twitter exchange was also common in that thread and in other dialogs in my opinion.
siteseer wrote:
Your heart is in the right place.
dee wrote:
This should work.
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/dec/09/group-speaks-out-alleged-church-sex-abuse-case/
@ Julie Anne:
Please tell me that man is not a minister. Good grief!
Turk has been disappearing stuff from his Pyromaniacs blog.
His post where he’d anointed Tom Chantry as “one of Pyromaniac’s most-diligent insightful readers” as well as “my new favo internet personality” has been pulled and replaced with accusations and stonewalling:
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/10/open-letter-to-james-macdonald.html
“I know why you came to this link”
“you came here to find some dirt on someone who once posted one post on this blog”
“Until Tom’s difficulties are resolved…nobody can use it for things it was not meant for”
“comments are also hidden and closed”
But Google still has the original post cached:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EMaxggWZg6UJ:teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/10/open-letter-to-james-macdonald.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I’m about 99% sure that Frank Turk is not a minister, thank God. Years ago, on no evidence whatsoever, Turk publicly accused me and a few others of being conspiracy theorists because we had the audacity to report the truth that two blogs were deleting negative comments about CJ Mahaney. He then deleted my comment telling him how to easily check it out for himself. Turk cares about 1) Making what he thinks are clever remarks, and 2) Becoming a Christian celebrity. It’s a shame, because he has some intelligence, and has written some things that are worth reading. Finally, don’t make the mistake of having a dialogue with him: He is only interested in coming out on top.
Richard wrote:
My great aunt lived down the street from that church. She was a very staid, conservative Lutheran. I remember visiting one time, and she pointed at it, and said, “That church is a bit creepy. One of my neighbors goes there. If you’re going to visit a church on Sunday, don’t visit there.” She never explained further, but when I saw the photo last week, I remembered that.
JeffB wrote:
Thanks, JEFF
I kind of got that from the tone of his tweets. This is not a man interested in understanding or listening to people, no. People make choices. Sometimes they close their ears to others who make them uncomfortable or question them, and surround themselves with like-minded folks. It is a choice, but it doesn’t advance the Kingdom of God where listening and understanding bears fruit for those strong enough to engage in dialogue with those who are different from themselves.
Glad he’s not a minister. I don’t think he is strong enough to even to bear the burdens of people’s concerns who come to his sites.
one of the little people wrote:
The original William Wallace was a brave man. Let’s not allow Mark Driscoll to ruin it.
one ae the wee folk wrote:
I’ll second NJ’s comment. “William Wallace” was stolen by someone who wouldn’t even qualify to charge the battery from William Wallace’s iPhone. It is most certainly not taken.
“The Globe’s reporting used the Church’s own documents to demonstrate that high-ranking officials had for decades hidden the prevalence of the abuse problem and repeatedly put the welfare of abusive priests ahead of that of the children.”
“Betrayal: The Crisis in the Catholic Church,” by the Investigative Staff of the Boston Globe
Though the Catholic church and the Evangelical church may have differing views on many points of theology, it appears they have some common ground!
Lord, Please continue to reveal what is hidden in darkness.
Let all those who have been a millstone for the little ones to know that their sin has found them out.
Bless the twitterer’s who tweet for You (love that Julie Anne)and those who use their talents to reveal the depths of depravity in the leaders who call themselves by Your Name.
Give those who need your grace and strength an abundance of it!
I have posted another update on the open discussion thread. I appreciate all of the generosity you have shown. Thank you.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-297200
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Turk wrote: “…From a perspective of God’s eternal justice, if Tom did the things he is accused of, he is already convicted in his heart and before the true judge of what is right. God is the one to whom Tom owes an explanation — if he is guilty. ”
Meaningless Platitudes. And people buy this rot as being Holy.
Dee,
CONGRATULATIONS! “For what?” you might ask. Well, I have this uncanny, prolific, and completely unintentional ability to make friends with people who I later find out have, or have had, just like me, online altercations with R Scott Clark!
dee wrote:
The pyro little boys think they possess acerbic wit. I read over there years ago now and then. They seem to be even worse. They worship John McArthur. Not Jesus.
They can say what they want and it is to be considered holy but spend all their time condemning the words of people who dare disagree with them. They are bubble people. Frankly, I am surprised you haven’t been chided for being out of your gender role yet.
When these things come out it is always the accused pastor or priest everyone is all worried about. Not the victim. Few understand grooming.
What a horribly deceptive crime child molestation is. It takes years for the precious undeveloped brain of a child to process the evil done to them. To speak up even years later means another level of abuse.
Peds are rarely convicted because of the level of crafty deception in that crime. They are some of the most deceptive and cunning people out there. Con men.
I am concerned about Chantry’s sons. And I am well aware of their patriarchal beliefs and enforcement of the wife’s “role”.
TWW and Pyrowhiners are cut from the same cloth, divas, all of you.
That said, I also believe the victims but stop short of equating that with proven guilt which most sane people do and glad to see that at least TWW has done, at least so far.
In the end I am confident a plea deal will be struck and no questions will be left as to guilt.
The fact that this went unreported by many in that circle of evangelicals tells a shameful story when far less offenses have been plastered on headlines before 24 hours past their discovery.
This is an awful story I haven’t gotten the chance to read yet, but I wanted to say the title cracked me up!
Why are people more worried about ‘innocent until proven guilty’ than they are that their bff was probably a child molester? That’s a skewed way of looking at things.
Missy M wrote:
This is the most confusing and sad part of pedophile crimes. No one can support victims coming forward without being accused of declaring a conviction before a trial or plea deal. Do you know how hard it is to prove guilt? That is one reason children are perfect for their evil deeds and brain gaming.
When a victim comes forward, it is the perfect time to discuss the overall deception and grooming that surrounds pedophilia. People have no clue how it works. It messes with their pre conceived notions. They expect pedophiles to only be dirty men who hang around playgrounds. They don’t want to be faced with the idea they have to be vigilant– even at church. It’s exhausting to think about. Peds know this.
Here is an article Todd shared on his blog that is indicative of what we have seen happen over the last 20 years or so from the RCC and evangelicals:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201404/why-predators-are-attracted-careers-in-the-clergy
So what do we do? Pretend the victim is not there? Refrain from mentioning how grooming works on the undeveloped brain of a child? I have had one Presbyterian “ruling elder” keep mentioning “Duke” in warning me about discussing this. I was in sin for discussing it. Right. What about Penn State? How many victims because the adults in power were too nice to throw a fit?
The worst part if this is most child molesters are never convicted.
Amy Smith wrote:
What possible legit reason would a pastor have for spanking kids that are not his own?
I can’t help but notice that one of those jobs was in a school and that incredibly disturbing.
Also, that Turk guy acted like spreading NEWS reports about how someone was actually arrested for a crime is the same thing as making stuff up to accuse Dee. His logic is poor. As are his manners.
“Wilhelm makes a rather interesting observation regarding Chantry and his defense of CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries.”
Scripture warns “Be sure your sin will find you out.” Perhaps Chantry knew that sooner or later, he might need Mahaney to defend him. Well, that time has come … his sin has exposed him … where is Mahaney?!
siteseer wrote:
Yes. His statement is entirely missing concern for your ‘christian brothers and sisters’ who might be victims of this guy. Why don’t they matter? Because you don’t know them? Because they’re not your ministry bro?
This is why people don’t think they care about victims. Because they don’t even think of them when stuff like this happens. They only think of the impact on them, and their ministry friends. If that ever changes, then maybe I will take them seriously.
@ Lydia:
Your response contains reasonable and unreasonable points. Of course we discuss the grooming of our children and all of the factors involved in perpetrating these kinds of assaults. No one suggests otherwise.
But this idea that people must “throw a fit” as the only appropriate response is exactly what costs advocates for any injustice a wider audience. Hysteria lends suspicion.
As a mother, when one of my kids played drama queen because their sibling hurt them, I immediately suspected exaggerations. That principle doesn’t vanish as adults with criminal offenses and discussions about them.
A person can be angry and upset, as they should be with crimes against children without throwing playing diva for a day. Those kinds of antics is part of our modern social dysfunction as it is.
” … hounded by Team Pyro …”
That’s why they call themselves “maniacs.” Congratulations, Dee, you must be doing something right! Hyper-Calvinists are some of the meanest people on the planet; the poor miserable souls are just being themselves. They always act this way when one of their own falls because it sheds light on the whole bunch.
@ Jerome:
Wow!
This is a very interesting, touchy response. IF he were innocent, why would you try to hide his words. IF he’s guilty, you are hiding truth. Is that what christians are supposed to do? Hide truth?
Lydia wrote:
What blithering nonsense!!!
Tom owes an explanation, on earth, to the people he has hurt.
Lydia wrote:
In pride and prejudice, Elizabeth says critically of herself ‘One may be continually abusive without saying any thing just; but one cannot be always laughing at a man without now and then stumbling on something witty.’
I think of that phrase when I read some of these pastor bros viciously going after everyone. They think they are occasionally stumbling on wit, but they are not just.
Julie Anne wrote:
Excellent! Gotta remember that one.
Wow, what a thing to wake up and read this morning. I hate the term "alleged" perpetrator. We know the person did the crime, especially when they confess (if) and they are still called alleged till proven guilty in court. Three people said this man Chantry abused them. I honestly don't believe you are going to get 3 people to say this man did something when he didn't. Especially if he was well loved. (I'm not sure about that part). As a parent, I would have never let me kids be counseled alone by a minister than wanted to tutor them. I would have to be in the same room as them. I know we are taught to believe that these men are the ministers and can do no wrong. After all, they are called of God. I honestly don't believe that half of the men who are so called ministers are actually called by God. They call themselves into the ministry. It's their careers. It makes it easier to hide their crimes of pedophilia and sexual abuse.
JeffB wrote:
It they want folks to stop talking about conspiracies, they need to stop providing so much evidence to support such theories!
Lea wrote:
Yes and because we are a nation of laws, not the whims of rulers or state church princes, that alleged crime is also against the laws of the state. He owes an explanation in the way of defense to the court that represents the state. All crime is society’s business. Sadly, justice is often for sale with expensive lawyers with clever tactics.
They can invoke God all they want. It’s so bizarre how that works. They try it on the front end and back end as God in control. So if convicted, was God in control of the molestation? My guess is no matter the outcome, God, through their voice will announce him sufficiently repentent for ministry.
@ old timer:
Amen, Old Timer.
@ Lea:
Oh so true. They do entertain one another. That is their only approved audience. It becomes so clear after a while.
Austin had such great insight and brought that out in her characters.
Love P&P! Caroline Bingly: I am all astonishment.
@ Missy M:
“Throw a fit” wasn’t a good analogy. How about dog digging for a bone?
Missy M wrote:
What if your child starts acting different out of nowhere with no obvious explanation? I hope you are like a dog digging for a bone.
@ Lydia:
I investigated, always.
Count me in as a member of the Holy Fury mob!
The very fact “they” are responding in such an “attack mode” tells me everthing i need to know…
@ Missy M:
I hope more parents learn this. When you research this stuff one cannot help but see the parallels in most cases to the perp being someone the parent(s) (and others) seemed to trust or approve of from a child’s perspective. A religious leader, a long time neighbor, coach, etc.
That is hard to fathom or even know how to operate within this scary paradigm. We don’t want to automatically distrust everyone who has contact with our children. So what to do?
These days even pediatricians are asking 6 year olds who touches them and where while the parent is in the room.
Peds should be scared of us. But they often prey on children of poor single moms or parents totally absorbed in following/defending some religious leader, etc.
They are master cons.
@ Amy Smith:
Wow
Bunny wrote:
I hereby dub you “The Rabbit.”
@ Lydia:
Practical wisdom. Day to day mom and dad awareness.
You know, there are verses that mention how our spiritual leaders are to be well respected and above reproach…. meeting privately, and spanking kids not your own, is not “above reproach”
I just live how these clowns are always so selective in their us of verses..
They also like to move around allot…. convient way to reduce the heat when the frying pan starts to warm up!!
siteseer wrote:
Awesome comment. I see no particular interest in victims in their comments but they would vehemently deny it.
siteseer wrote:
That has been my experience in my years in blogging.
one of the little people wrote:
LOLOL I, too am a minion albeit of Satin (sic).
@ dee:
Concern for victims is THE litmus test….. if defenders of alleged perp show no concerns for potential victims, especially abused kids, I immediately discount what they say….
@ brian:
This was one of the most ridiculous conversations that I have ever participated in on social media. He claimed that I had tried, convicted and lynched Chantry when I merely said I believe the victims. His response was so over the top that I began to wonder that he needs some help in dealing with his anger.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Thank you, Todd and thank you for leading us in this battle. Your posts are excellent!
@ Christiane:
I do not think he is a pastor but I can guarantee you that he is heavily involved in the church.
Jerome wrote:
Unbelievable! Something is very strange about their response to this. Perhaps we caught them off guard after they thought this was successfully hidden.
Jerome wrote:
Thanks! I just printed all 67 pages (!) to a PDF file. The Internet is forever, Frank Turk.
JeffB wrote:
I have begun to wonder why their response is so over the top to child sex abuse situations. Perhaps this is just a strange response pattern. It does cause me to wonder if there may be more of these incidents that have been buried. I have no proof but something is strange about Turks vehemence.
@ dee:
I have never been impressed with Frank Turk, nor Anyone at Team Pyro. They were one of the meanest bunch of men I ever came across if you disagreed with them. They were unreasonable. Chantry was really obnoxious. He commented more than the blog owners.
dee wrote:
There was a discussion yesterday about when ‘gospel’ language minimizes and I think this is a good example. The talk about legal/god’s ‘justice’ is distancing, the talk about supporting Tom is specific and directed. The victims do not get the same language.
dee wrote:
This guy was arrested in July and we just heard of it. I think the proper assumption is that MOST of what happens is covered up and never gets reported.
I hate this idea that they keep throwing up that someone has to be convicted in a court of law before we believe victims. The truth is the truth, whether it can be proven or not. There are false accusations and I would not send someone to prison without proof. But in real life? I will believe the people who seem credible to me. I don’t need any other standard.
dee wrote:
nope, not ‘strange’ at all …… it is a ‘classic’ pattern seen throughout history and literature when someone is guilty and tries to deflect that guilt by over-reacting:
“”The lady doth protest too much, methinks” is a quotation from the c. 1600 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to describe someone’s overly frequent and vehement attempts to convince others of some matter of which the opposite is true, thereby making themselves appear defensive and insincere.” (quoting from wiki)
Strangeness continues to develop at Team Pyro. They have removed the original post at their website and replaced it with this.
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/10/open-letter-to-james-macdonald.html
“Which is to say, you came here to find some dirt on someone who once posted one post on this blog.
Until Tom’s difficulties are resolved, that post will remain in DRAFT status on this blog. Meaning: nobody cared about it until about Tuesday of this week, and now nobody can use it for things it was not meant for until such a time as its obscurity can be restored and we can all live peaceful lives and work quietly with our hands.
I abhor your curiosity, and I regret that the current events are such as they are. But Tom Chantry is my friend, and that is not because of any virtue in him but because Christ has made us both His friend. I cling to Christ, and in clinging to Christ I am also holding Tom and all associated with this current circumstance close to Christ so that He may resolve it for His good pleasure.
I suggest you do the same — especially if this is how you are spending your free time.
I am also directing you to this link for exhaustive comments on how one should deal with a situation like this one.
The comments are also hidden and closed.
Until there are better times for all of us, Grace and Peace to you.”
~Frank Turk
Christiane wrote:
Perfect!
Lydia wrote:
I’m sorry, this is garbage. Turk’s giving Chantry an out–oh, he’s already been before God, he doesn’t need to go before a judge and a jury of his peers and have the evidence presented and be confronted by his accusers, oh no, that’s all been taken care of by God. I’m sorry, but that’s a raging Dumpster fire and is a real problem with Calvinista thought.
JeffB wrote:
He is one angry man.
ishy wrote:
She sounds like she was a smart woman.
@ Christiane:
I decided to answer his tweets with “I believe the victim.” I said it over and over and over and frustrated him. I wanted that message out there.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
I have been in contact with some priests who have kept me appraised of how they are fighting to keep children safe. I have hope the tide has changed there.
old timer wrote:
And I love Julie Anne!
Lydia wrote:
I agree.
dee wrote:
there’s ‘bad’, there’s ‘worse’, and then, there’s ‘evil’
how can someone use the holy Name of Christ to try to excuse his involvement with trying to intimidate those who are on to his ‘alleged’ paedophile buddy????
A person really has had to kick Our Lord to the curb to attempt to use His Name in that kind of context.
These pyro folk are mean? I guess they have to be because if they are up to this kind of thinking and acting, they will have to rely on some heavy intimidation of other people to keep their ‘standing’ …… this is very sick form of Calvinism …… not at all like anything I have seen from the good people of the Dutch Reformed Church in New Jersey, no. I’d say the SBC form of neo-Calvinism is unwholesome by comparison.
@ Steve Scott:
LOLOL. I really don’t mind pushback. But I start getting suspicious when I am accused of violating the 9th commandment by simply saying that I believe the victims.
I am honest about my feeling and beliefs. Neither feeling and beliefs convict anyone of a crime. It is merely my opinion and the laws in the United States, at least currently, allow me to express my beliefs.
And as for the Christian part, even God knows what I think and there is no use hiding it from Him as well. he has given me a *hill to die on* and I intend to proceed. Of course, I am mortal and can be wrong. On the other hand, maybe God is using my feelings and experience to speak for the victims.
So, let the critics critique. I shall carry on.
Lydia wrote:
That has happened in the past but in general they have left me alone. Apparently, Tom Chantry is their *hill to die on.*
Lydia wrote:
I am so glad you mentioned this. I, too, almost said something about this yesterday but I had enough of the attacks. I plan to speak out on concerns for their safety once their is a trial.
I’ve been thinking…what would I do if someone under my supervision (and maybe a friend) was accused of such a crime? The conclusion I’ve come to is to release a statement that this person has been suspended pending investigation and encourage all victims of such a crime to go to the police.
Missy M wrote:
I have always wanted to be called a diva!
dee wrote:
I can see why they wanted to hide this article with little bits like this:
Bridget wrote:
I need to go back and search out comments i think Chantry has commented here in the past.
Lea wrote:
I was in quite the mood last night.
Lydia wrote:
Ask him if he believes that Al Mohler and others were in sin when they discussed Penn States prior to the convictions.
Lea wrote:
He certainly ain’t no gentleman.
Max wrote:
I believe that Mahaney is finally being quietly sidelined. His church is no long a member of The Gospel Coalition. I can find no reason why this has happened.
I also wonder if the reason that folks have been so defensive re:Chantry, Mahaney and others is that they know of other things that have been covered up. Let’s just say I think we are hitting the tip of the iceberg.
Lea wrote:
I fear this is how the gospel gang functions.
dee wrote:
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Bless you guys for being the sun 🙂
Missy M wrote:
Actually, sometimes expressing a terrible incident in an over the top matter causes people to notice it. The blogs written by the daughter of Stan have been making an impact as more and more people are becoming aware of the heinous nature of child sex abuse and the church.
Max wrote:
It sure seems to be the case.
dee wrote:
Well, in the meantime, his church quietly became a member of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Lea wrote:
This response is bizarre and I think there is more going on behind the scenes.
Lea wrote:
Absolutely. I believe that there has been some hope that this incident, and maybe others, would fly under the radar.
In some respects, Turk reminds of Tullian Tchividjian when it comes to sin in the camp.
Harley wrote:
Well said.
dee wrote:
It’s scary to bring up for everyone involved. But it is a very real concern. Pedophilia is rarely a one time event.
Max wrote:
You made me laugh.
“… While Dee Is Accused of Lots of Things”
The Bible doesn’t say anything about being an accuser of the sistern, only about being an accuser of the brethren … so they are OK to do that, Dee ;^)
Lea wrote:
Why was Tom Chantry a defender of Mahaney and Sovereign Grace?
Lydia wrote:
A completely different situation with different dynamics, not involving pedophilia or children.
@ dee:
If you want to stir up some weeping and gnashing of teeth, bring up something bad about a hper-Calvinist who’s-who … the rest of them will jump on you and hit you in the mouth. They are such a pleasant cast of characters … not.
Missy M wrote:
Who is playing diva for a day?
I had a friend who in early life was molested by a minister. This friend is now middleaged. I can attest that the ramifications of that type of abuse can be lifelong. And I can also understand why one might be totally discombobulated at a friend being accused of abuse. But what I cannot understand is how a supposedly Christian man cannot scrape up one bit of compassion for victims of abuse, or imagine that there is at least a chance that the friend is guilty of what he is accused of. Look, none of us want someone to be falsely accused. But even more so, I should think, none of us would ever want a victim to suffer alone. I cannot fathom the evil that would be withholding compassion from a victim until and unless a guilty verdict was obtained.
I was raped when I was young and I never even told anyone until decades later. My perp is dead. So I guess my pain does not count? I call horsefeathers. (Feel free to translate that last word to your epithet of choice.)
siteseer wrote:
I think once you have multiple victims, an investigation leading to an arrest, etc, the odds of things being false are small. But yes, completely different dynamics.
Bunny wrote:
Of course it does. A very close family member was abused as a child and that is the truth, whether it was reported or not. I will believe who I believe to be truthful, that is my personal standard. Legal standards are different and that’s fine. But the truth is the truth, no matter who was told, no matter if there was evidence or not, no matter what anyone unconnected thinks.
Missy M wrote:
Better the loudest racket in the world than the modest silence of the women told to ‘shut up’ in their churches by these ‘men’ who defend their pedo buddies and COUNT ON the silence of those they can ATTEMPT to humiliate, and discourage …… but that these men should also get women to try to shut others up who are blowing the whistle on their power game????? I can’t respect any woman who would play along with these guyz in trying to keep it all on the down lo. The children need those divas and I can only love it that some would make themselves fools for Christ in the defense of the children.
Nothing uglier than ‘friends’ of an alleged paedophile trying to shut people up who are blowing the whistle to alert others of a terrible danger.
I’m in!
When I was under the spell of wolves in sheep’s clothing I didn’t dare question those who were in authority over me, until I did, and now I am a done. That said, even though I was enchanted by doctrines of dead men, if any pastor dared spank my daughters, there would have been hell to pay, in the likeness of Jesus I would have made a whip out of cords. I was whipped, bare bottom as a child & carry the invisible scars & trauma so this story enrages me. I would love to join your mob, maybe I can run factory where whips are made. I followed this yesterday, and was sick at how heartless the responses were. My brain kept changing Turk to Turd, my naughty brain wiring is messed up. Thank-You for all your hard work that you do for victims.
Love ya Darling Diva Dee!
Amy Smith wrote:
Can you say “Spanking Fetish”?
I knew you could.
Either that or “Can You Top This?” has come to Christian Domestic Discipline(TM).
@ Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:
Every mob needs an oracle to consult before commencing mob action. Welcome to Holy Fury.
siteseer wrote:
“ONE OF US!
ONE OF US!
GOOBLE! GOBBLE!
ONE OF US!”
— Todd Browning, Freaks
Max wrote:
Just as OK as:
“I did not know that woman in a Biblical sense…”
— Douggie ESQUIRE, closet cosplayer (and keeboarper)
@ Missy M:
I have just done a review of your comments. Let me ask you something. What do you mean by a diva? Since I now believe you weren’t joking, I am asking you to expound on your thoughts. I really hate passive aggressive so lay it on the table.
dee wrote:
Who will be the friend to the victims.
@ siteseer:
(Frank Turk quote)
Max wrote:
And the Word of CALVIN (and Privilege of Predestined Elect Rank) is spread.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:
How does it really differ from Tullian’s mindset? Either way, the person has no accountability to anyone but “god”. As long as they don’t get caught breaking the law and get arrested, it seems they are free to continue business as usual.
dee wrote:
How many victims does a pedo usually have before the first known one?
dee wrote:
My first thought would be “What’s He Hiding”?
The more shocked “NO! NEVER!”s there are in a public denial (see Got Hard), the more likely they’re guilty.
Lydia wrote:
Reconstructionism, Dominionism, and Christian Nationhood will fix that.
Lea wrote:
Tom’s explanation is CORBAN!
dee wrote:
This could be the tagline of those who defend evil men everywhere.
Stop being curious. Stop researching. Stop ‘gossiping’. Let us keep our pretty little lies without challenge.
To this we all say ‘No’.
@ dee:
“Missy” M … or “Mister” M, perhaps?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Me, too,
Lea wrote:
I agree. And to society at large, as well. Criminal acts are like that.
I wish to known as Brother Maynard, keeper of the Holy Handgrenade of Truth.
@ Lydia:
Ah, you beat me to it, Lydia. Good for you. 🙂
George wrote:
So designated. Serve your leader well.
I will be gone most of the afternoon and evening due to family obligations, church and a workplace Christmas party. Hold down the fort!
Since Missy comes here to criticize Dee for her “Diva” ways of going about defending children and the vulnerable among us, she should start her own website to do that in a way that she deems acceptable.
dee wrote:
That was fair game since it did not concern one of their own . . .
Missy M wrote:
What does this even mean . . .?
Ooh, I want in on the mob thing!! Lessee, what can I call myself? I’m a Canadian, living in Japan, teaching English, a mild fantasy and anime geek… hard to wrap all of that up in a single title. Or, even any of it… 🙁
How ’bout “Lone Wolf of the Eastern Front”?
It doesn’t surprise me. The entire Team Pyro crew has never exhibited the fruit of the spirit and make rather a sport out of flaunting the works of the flesh. There is nothing Christian about their blog, actions, or words in public, so I fully expect them to go to the mattresses for a friend indicted on pederasty charges. Wicked men supporting wicked men. Nothing surprising there.
@ dee:
Not convinced you hate passive aggressive but pretending you do, diva is self-explanatory and that is how you come off in my view and from what I see, I’ve touched a nerve.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Nice!
Amy Smith wrote:
Meh. When Missy says something half-coherent and rational I’ll consider considering her. Until then I don’t give a fig either way.
What Turk wrote here
“if Tom did the things he is accused of, he is already convicted in his heart”
isn’t even true. If Chantry was convicted in his heart . . . he would have turned himself in to the police long before they came looking for him.
Missy M wrote:
I don’t think Missy M has ever raised his voice in defense of an abused child for fear of coming across as a ‘diva’ in the eyes of someone else who has never raised their voice in defense of an abused child for fear of coming across as a ‘diva’ in the eyes of someone else who has never raised their voice in defense of an abused child for fear of coming across as a ‘diva’ ad infinitum ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Lea wrote:
Anybody who says “Stop investigating this!” about a friend is shouting that it must be true, and they know it’s true.
Someone honest will say “You go ahead and investigate, and the truth will become evident.”
dee wrote:
Just remember, First, thou shalt pull the pin, then thou shalt count to the number 5. 5 shall be the number of the counting, no more, no less. Neither shalt thou count to 4, lest thou directly proceed the number 5. 6 is right out…
“I abhor your curiosity, and I regret that the current events are such as they are. But Tom Chantry is my friend, and that is not because of any virtue in him but because Christ has made us both His friend. I cling to Christ, and in clinging to Christ I am also holding Tom and all associated with this current circumstance close to Christ so that He may resolve it for His good pleasure.”
Anyone who has, you know, been to college and taken courses in propaganda and marketing, is just laughing at this sophomoric garbage right now. Apparently we all have the intellectual capacity of the average 3rd grader.
Gail wrote:
Maybe that’s why She stated that when Chantry would hit them he would tell them not to tell because God would be mad at them.” ( From the article http://www.mysouthnow.com/story/news/local/hales-corners/2016/12/08/hales-corners-pastor-facing-charges-child-molestation/95112878/ )
Deebs, infrequent commenter here, but I would like to join your mob (if this name isn’t already taken – which probably isn’t):
The Super-Sized Steel Shillelagh Swinger!
Missy M wrote:
Projection alert!
ishy wrote:
There is a legal term for people called ‘consciousness of guilt’ I believe, that says people act differently when guilty. Something to think about (IANAL).
Looking at his background, there is a lot of time spent with children, work, church, ‘voluntarily’ teaching, etc…Concerning.
Missy M wrote:
Missy, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic. Do you have some direct information that might help everyone understand the situation better?
I do not share your characterization of Dee. She and Deb have put this blog together years ago, and they follow stories that others don’t really want to cover. Kind of like when the Drudge Report filed its first story about the then sitting President having an affair with an intern in the White House, and the pressure that was being applied to a former White House employee (Linda Tripp) to lie. Newsweek had the same story, but sat on it. This catapulted Drudge into being the “go to” site for lots of people who suspected that the larger media corporations were not reporting newsworthy information because they were too cozy with the White House. Several other websites followed. So it’s not just Drudge now. It’s a host of alternative media sites. All of this, in my view, has been really good for informing the public.
The same is true in the religious world to some extent. But the internet and blogging have opened up the field so that allegations of wrongdoing, and proven wrongdoing, can be discussed outside the usual channels of religious publishers, magazines, denominational offices, and para church affinity groups.
Dee and Deb fit in that category.
If you don’t like what they have printed, or you resent their prominence in the blog world (expressed by your use of the word “Diva”), that is certainly your right.
But really all that is going on here is that a couple of women have become the go-to source for a lot of people who feel that more often than not they get the story out there, and they get it right.
I haven’t seen that you have criticized them for being wrong in this case.
If they are wrong, do tell. What can you add to the conversation?
But if your only criticism is to poke at your perceived evaluation of their prominence, remember, that has been earned over many years of track record performance.
Max wrote:
The first time I saw a comment from Missy was back in 2015 on the story of Julie McMahon and her dealings with the NPD Tony Jones. Her comment back then was:
“Yeah, poor Julie, totally innocent and bad Tony, completely guilty.”
There is a pattern, he/she likes to take the position of being above the fray. Very convenient, but not for the abused.
dee wrote:
“This is your chance to join the Holy Fury Mob.”
How’s this for Holy Fury?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLvGnro4Cgw
Missy M wrote:
This is not only an ad hominem attack which gives no logical reasoning for its basis, it has a sexist tone to it.
The only reason for calling someone a “diva” is that someone else’s popularity was threatened, and it had something to do with you.
I think it’s important to be suspicious of anyone who wants to spend too much time alone with a child. It just seems to scream that there will be issues.
I’m a teacher, and I just don’t have kids over to my home…period. If parents would like me to tutor, then it is either after school (with all of the safeguards in place), at a public place, or in their home with the parent present. I never have kids in my car and they are not part of my social calendar. Parents are always cced on any e-mails I send older students; same with texts (and, I don’t usually text kids).
I love kids and love teaching in both my church and school, and I work hard to respect boundaries. I am naturally suspicious of adults who do not do that. Adults without boundaries may be abusing kids.
Oops!
Used Google Chrome to post that last comment, and the dialogue box defaulted to my former name.
Am posting this under my new name, and will ask the blog host to do what needs to be done to correct.
Thanks.
Lydia wrote:
Or adult males who are fans of animated cartoons or My Little Pony. I have heard “Beware Thou of the Mutant” stories from cartoon fans, and morning drive-time radio covers various Brony cons which make the news with the stage whisper commentary of “pedophiles…”.
And it has always struck me that a successful pedo’s third-party grooming would include deflecting suspicion to those in the congregation (or other social grouping) who are “different”. A word of concern(TM) here, a whisper there, a finger pointed at The Mutant and how We Have To Be On Our Guard. Alerted by the Angel of Light among us.
And while the convoy escorts are depth-charging the decoy, the real (and phallic) torpedoes bore in from the other direction.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
If that.
Once you get outside the Christianese Bubble, the reputation is “Christian” = STUPID to EVIL.
I think I’ve seen this script before. Silencing tactics, lynch mob hyperbole to discredit those who shine the light, we don’t have all the facts etc. Understand, the more publicity this gets, more victims typically come out of hiding. Team Pyro would like to sweep this under the rug. Even after the evidence is in, a conviction is rendered, and “alleged” can be dropped from abuse, the defenders will tell us it is old news and we need to be forgiving.
Words have meaning and it tells me something about people who wish equate those desiring justice to being part of a lynch mob.
dee wrote:
This is only a ME thing, not a TWW thing, or a Christian thing, just a Muslin (daughter of Stan) thing. I have to wonder if it’s because the people challenging the leaders are those who are supposed to accede to male authority, namely women and children?
I remember when I lived in Salt Lake City back in the 1990s, there was a public scandal about a young man who had been released from prison, not even on parole, not even having to register as a sex offender, so he could serve a Mormon mission in Chile!!! The young man was in prison because he’d sexually abused a little girl of about five or six. He’d managed to (IMHO) hornswoggle the people who work with sexual abusers in the Utah state prison system, and they thought he should be released so he could go on a mission! The father of the little girl found out and was just *frantic*, trying to get the church leadership to see what an awful thing it would be to call this young man on a mission. He didn’t get anywhere, and on top of that, he and his family had to move because they’d “destroyed” the life of this priesthood holder. (As in, “so what, he molested your kid?”) The father finally went to the Salt Lake Tribune, which printed this story on the front page, and after a bit of embarrassment, the church withdrew the mission call. That took a lot of bravery on the part of the father and the paper because of the then-generally closed nature of some parts of Utah society.
So yeah, I’ve seen this before, and again, this is a me thing, not a TWW thing or a Christian thing, but I have to wonder how much of this is patriarchs protecting patriarchs.
siteseer wrote:
Don’t molesters & abusers normally groom (and threaten) their victims Not To Tell anyone?
And previously groom third parties to disbelieve everything if the victim does tell?
Christiane wrote:
Missy M may as well be a sock puppet for Pastor Pedo or one of his courtiers.
Lydia wrote:
As much as that witty wordsmith, the Jerk with the Kirk in Moscow Idaho.
Madly and deeply in love with the sound of their own words, the smell of their own farts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTkedIUX8U
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well in this case, the shoe fits, doesn’t it?
Bill M wrote:
the pattern is noticed and is very, very revealing
Missy M, we can see right through you …… what we have here is no failure to communicate 🙂
It looks like Turk and his other Pyro-maniacs are a part of a group of bloggers I would call “self-proclaimed geniuses!” There are many sites dedicated to the arrogant and rude boasting of a self-proclaimed expert in what makes up “pure doctrine.” They proclaim themselves to be “the Bible answer man.” They display no humility and rudely throw their boasting in their intellectual prowess in everyone’s faces. They display zero orthopraxy and could care less about acting like Jesus. Its all about their superior intellect and how much most everyone else is a total blithering idiot.
Apparently there is nothing new about any of this. Paul spoke that a symptom of having no love whatsoever was sounding like a gong or cymbal. Even the name “Pyro” brings this kind of destructive, noisy imagery to mind. Its all flash, bang and no substance. The Bible states plainly “that knowledge puffs up.” I am an intellectual. God keeps challenging me to practice orthopraxy, humbling myself while being kind, gentle and compassionate. Taking pride in my own intellect is a path that leads to the “Dark Side.” Blog sites like Pyro are like open graves on the Internet. Jesus is the center of the universe and nothing else. Not a denomination, a systematic theology, a celebrity, a blogger nor anything else that lifts itself up to the point where it is in competition with the real Jesus.
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
*Offers cookie*
I made cookies for the light side. It’s about time someone did.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think there may be two reasons for that. The first is the assumption that they are emotionally immature and that might lead to molesting (which doesn’t make much sense imo) and second that they might use that interest to talk to children. I could see being concerned if there were one adult male who wanted to attend a convention full of 6 year old girls. But that’s not whats happened with the MLP group, it seems.
At the same time, I hate being suspicious of people who love children (as opposed to a children show which is not actually the same thing at all), because some people legitimately do just love children. Some people are great teachers. But there is this element that wants to infiltrate this environment solely to get access to prey and so we have to be wary.
@ Mr. Jesperson:
+1
@ siteseer: Good point.
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
And Intellect after all is not wisdom. Wisdom is what we should be striving for. Intellect has giant blind spots, it seems.
Turk Tweets Again:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spe3or
Lea wrote:
The smugness of someone who has forgotten (or perhaps never known) that God knows all and sees all, and holds all accountable, no explanation necessary. Repentance and restitution are also necessary and those involve people.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Absolutely. I know from experience. I might be naive, but my daughters told me who hurt their feelings, who was bullying them because I taught them they could tell me anything, so in hindsight if a pastor spanked them, regardless of his threats, I like to think I would have heard about it.
@ JeffB:
Wow. I started to quote things that were bonkers about that, and then I realized I would have to quote the whole thing.
But to close with, this isn’t really about the molestation of children, it’s just about Tom being my friend is BREATHTAKING in it’s cluelessness and self importance.
Turk: “Another thing I learned is that they aren’t concerned about all abuse — just the abuse which will drive traffic and readers to their sites. How many alleged perpetrators have been apprehended by U.S. Law Enforcement for child abuse who are also employed by local churches in the last 30 days, do you think? How many besides Tom Chantry have they cast their steely gaze upon, would you imagine? Exactly — the problem is really that Tom is my friend and I will not disown him, not that Tom has done something terrible.”
Anyone want to take a stab at explaining this?
Dee,
You asked me if I would be willing to share our story. I’ve thought about it and talked to my daughter. Yes I would. You’re welcome to contact me through my email address.
@ JeffB:
Clueless. Self important.
This blog has a scope. If there are SO MANY child abuser employed by churches that they can’t possibly all have posts done about them isn’t that a huge problem? Shouldn’t we be talking about it in church every d*** day? Shouldn’t Tom be pointing out all these other people as well instead of trying to get people to shut up about his BFF?
JeffB wrote:
Normal neo-Cal drivel that everyone else must be as bad as they are.
Except they’re not.
@ one of the little people:
Yay.I am out Can you send me an email so i won’t forget? dee@thewartburgwatch.com
Missy M wrote:
No it isn’t. I am asking you to answer my question.What do you mean by diva. You haven’t touched a nerve, I am called all sort of names far worse and more clever than diva which, at first, I found rather amusing.
If you refuse to do so, you will be moved into slow moderation.
Is Missy M perhaps posing as female? Regardless, what Missy M is doing is called trolling which is what internet mobs do. Being angry at outrageous callousness in minimizing child abuse is in fact a normal and healthy Christian response to evil. Mockery is not and neither.
Christiane wrote:
JeffB wrote:
He is taking “methinks thou doth protest too much” to a whole new level. The guy doesn’t know when to stop. Soon all eyes will be on him, silently waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Bridget wrote:
In the Neo Cal world, not being convicted in your heart means you are automatically innocent…if you are one of the pastors.
Somehow I can’t see his expensive attorney using this in his defense. He might even suggest Tom’s “friends” shut up on social media.
These guys are so silly. Scary they think this way. Best to avoid their parallel universe.
JeffB wrote:
I think Turk thinks himself the true victim here. Attention is given to Tom largely because he is “his friend”.
This is yet another page from the script where the narcissists cast themselves in the role of the victim, another way to silence victims and it often works.
Missy M wrote:
Feed not the troll. 😀
Bill M wrote:
Yes. Good point.
This is all about him now. No thought of others who may have been harmed. Just you have attacked me, you have attacked my friend…
@ dee:
I see, you’re threatening to silence me at your blog because you have the power to all because you won’t accept my answer that your diva behavior is self-evident. Okay, the above is an example of typical thin-skinned diva behavior which you act out and your headline is another example.
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
Yes, that’s what I experienced when I encountered Turk on Twitter yesterday. I had never heard of him before and had never engaged with him in any way or even mentioned him in a tweet. But he started a Twitter “conversation” with me, because I tweeted in support of Dee, Deb and others who stand with victims. It didn’t take long to realize that he wasn’t interested in a conversation, only in proving me wrong and having the last word.
Missy M wrote:
Translation:
“Missy” came here to announce that:
She (?) is passive agressive
She (?) is pretending
Her (?) nerve has been touched
“In my view” and “from what I see” are the acknowledgement that she’s the only one seeing this
@ Melody:
I clearly advocated for being angry at crimes against children or anyone for that matter which you conveniently skipped. My objection is to hysteria that goes on here and other forms of unhealthy anfmd destructive acting out.
Missy M wrote:
To be fair, when someone asks you to explain something, ‘it’s self evident’ is not actually a great argument.
Missy M wrote:
So, by ‘diva’ you actually meant ‘thin skinned’?
@ siteseer:
oops bumped my mouse before finishing-
“In my view” and “from what I see” are the acknowledgement that she’s the only one seeing this “diva” thing
I put (?) after ‘she,’ not knowing if Missy is a she or a he
Missy M wrote:
I must have missed it.
Isn’t accusation of someone being hysterical another silencing tactic?
@ Bill M:
Never above the fray. I just do not like lopsided narratives and having raised 3 kids and participating in more than a few women’s Bible studies and fellowships, I’ve heard it over and over again. I know what abuse is and is not and have experienced it myself but it does not give me the right to exaggerate and not take responsibility for my decisions and act like some helpless victim the rest of my life.
Bill M wrote:
I think that’s a variant on shooting the messenger.
@ Melody:
I clearly advocated for being angry at crimes against children or anyone for that matter which you conveniently skipped. My objection is to hysteria that goes on here and other forms of unhealthy anfmd destructive acting out.@ Lea:
No, but that is part of being a diva.
@ Bill M:
If it is, it sure isn’t working with all of the chatting and over the top responses.
I find it ironic that pointing out that a frequent poster at Pyro who is also a supporter of CJ and is now an accused child molester is considered excessive. This is Pyro we’re talking about?
Bill M wrote:
The whole group is fairly morally bankrupt in one way or another. The stuff they say makes that very clear.
Missy M wrote:
I haven’t seen any hysteria here, other than in the Frank Turk quotes.
And Frank Turk accuses the advocates of being “an angry mob”, coming to his doorstep “with torches and pitchforks”.
The strategy in all of these accusations is that if you accuse someone speaking in a normal voice of shouting, they will speak even more quietly; these are all statements designed to quiet the speaker.
Also, when Frank Turk used the statement, “I believe the victims of your necrophilia” to try and draw a parallel, it’s intriguing that his brain would pull necrophilia out to use as a parallel, of all things. Does he equate the victims of a pedophile to corpses? Bodies that should remain silent and forgotten?
“One of the things that I have learned in the last 48 hours is that the so-called “survivors blogs” don’t care if their allies and followers are advocates for abortion, normalization of homosexuality, euthanasia, or any other immoral practice — as long as they say “great post” to their accusations and endorse ever slander and absurd interpolation of the things these blogs are obsessively curious about.
Another thing I learned is that they aren’t concerned about all abuse — just the abuse which will drive traffic and readers to their sites. How many alleged perpetrators have been apprehended by U.S. Law Enforcement for child abuse who are also employed by local churches in the last 30 days, do you think? How many besides Tom Chantry have they cast their steely gaze upon, would you imagine? Exactly — the problem is really that Tom is my friend and I will not disown him, not that Tom has done something terrible.
For those reasons, you’ll forgive me if I don’t take any of the shrill insults at face value going forward. They have a purpose which is pretty obvious and pretty unsavory.
My last tweet ever will come in a few weeks. Thanks to all who will wait for it.” Frank Turk
This tweet is full of accusations, many of which he cannot possibly know about people.
I have not followed the tweets, but have people been making shrill insults to him? Does he really believe people are more upset that he is Tom’s friend than at the alleged crime’s?
Frank Turk seems to be full of himself and turning himself into a victim.
@ Lea:
Well, it was so crazy I just had to quote the whole thing!
siteseer wrote:
I’ve never heard of the guy.
But I wonder what secrets he’s hiding since he is protesting so much.
Darcyjo wrote:
Standing ovation, pastor.
Bridget wrote:
Completely understand!!
dee wrote:
I’ve changed my mind: Wartburg Diva has a better ring than Minion. Please refer to me as such henceforth.
That Pyro Guy (as quoted by Bridget) wrote:
Here we see one of the things you tend to see, if you can’t tick all the boxes they think are super important, you can’t be listened to. So Dee et al are suspect simply for ‘not caring’ that people who care about abuse haven’t given their positions on this laundry list of things.
There is no ability to create common ground, because the second you say you are not reformed or are liberal or are whatever they will dismiss you completely. You no longer count. They stop their ears at these things and they are really mad that everyone else doesn’t and probably doubly mad that people are actually listening to you despite all of that.
@ siteseer:
I don’t Twitter but I did read Frank Turk’s tweets recommended from here. I agree, he displays hysteria in some.
Mr. Jesperson wrote:
I sense a great disturbance in the force…
@ Bridget:
I could be wrong, but I doubt this language will change even if Mr Chandry were to confess and be found guilty. Mr. Turk is going to stand by his man. It has been my experience that many in church leadership not only have no good theology for situations of child sexual abuse in the church, they don’t even use common sense. Their words and actions present that they are somehow heroic for standing by child mestors and abusers, completely missing the broken devastated victims left in their wake.
Oops, Chantry.
Will someone tweet at Frank Turk and tell him to shut the hell up for me? Thanks in advance!
@ Melody:
Does gender matter? I just assumed female. I am confused why others think it is male? Can’t women communicate like that?
I had Stephanie Drury insist I was a male. I never understood it. It was bizarre.
Missy M wrote:
I guess one person (or one blogger’s) anger is another’s “hysteria.”
I find your on-going nit-picking at the blog owners to be very tiresome, and it comes across as arrogant, too.
I would hope that the reaction of people who care about the welfare of children would ALWAYS be a strong and vibrant one of disgust for any people involved in the sexual abuse of children: that includes the perpetrator, his ‘friends’, and also disgust for anyone of his tribe who tries to humiliate or silence those who speak up to alert others about the danger of the perpetrator’s presence in the community.
You cannot attempt to diminish peoples’ genuine responses to child abuse without drawing attention to yourself, ‘missy m.’, and your own motivations. ‘Troll’ is too gentle a term for your kind. Perhaps ‘enabler’ works better for them what supports predators by trying to silence and humiliate whistle blowers. Yep. ‘Enabler’ is a better description, unless one wanted to go full ‘predator by proxy’. ‘Troll’ is far too kind for ‘missy m.’s ilk.
As for reactions to someone who hurts the child of another person: a lot of parents take action violently against the perpetrator, sometimes right in court in front of everyone, and the truth is, most of us get it that the parent is emotionally justified in that reaction, if not legally.
That word ‘hysteria’? . . . . why don’t we describe what is really going on when bloggers, like the Deebs, fight for the exposure of predators: we could call it standing up against evil for the sake of people who are vulnerable. If that is ‘hysteria’, then this world needs a whole more of it.
Missy M wrote:
You mean “typing” out? No acting needed. :o)
JeffB wrote:
So much self-importance and smugness in one extended Tweet. I’m surprised the internet didn’t implode.
Here is the first part of his Tweet:
Oh no, some “survivor blogs” draw people with diverse beliefs! Not everyone here agrees 100% with Frank Turk’s theology!! Oh noes!!!
I’m pretty much a social conservative myself on many a topic, but I see nothing wrong or bad with people of varying views coming to together to talk, debate, or to fight against something most everyone agrees is wrong (such as child abuse).
Turk has a stick up his behind.
Missy M wrote:
We certainly would not want to put one of God’s anointed in prison for pedophilia, cant have that, it would look bad. I dont care how it looks, have a trial, if convicted throw the book at him, as hard as possible. Give those victims every bit of support they need and then some. If you’re a pastor and you molest a child, prey on vulnerable women and think, hey Grace covers it, I repented and its all cool now, nope. You can be forgiven, but the consequences of your actions should stick with you for the rest of your life, no contact with victims, no contact with children. No position of authority in the Church ever again.
Lydia wrote:
Ha!
No one here has done anything really. Dee got all this response to reporting an arrest, which is public information. My response to these things at this point tends to be ‘another one’??? And then shock at the unsober, childish and pathetic, responses by people like Turk. These are serious accusations and credible enough to be prosecuted. Most never get to that stage. And he treats it like a big joke, running around accusing people of necrophilia?
Lydia wrote:
Sometimes I agree with Drury on some things, sometimes not.
(She moderates the “Stuff Christian Culture Likes” Facebook page, and she has a Twitter account.)
If you don’t fully agree with Drury on every issue that involves women or gender, she tends to assume that even if you are really, truly a woman (and not a man writing under a woman’s name,) that you disagree with her (or with the accepted, liberal feminist position) only because you have “internalized misogyny.”
You cannot simply be a woman who holds to a different viewpoint, one that does not jibe with secular and/or Christian liberal feminism, in her world view.
I believe Drury is sometimes right on the money on some stories on some topics she posts about, but on others, I totally disagree with her.
She is correct that sexist men, the guys who are into gender complementarianism, treat online male screen names with much more respect than they do female ones.
Drury may have suspected that you were a man writing under a woman’s name, if you were writing at her on Twitter or where ever and disagreeing with her about something.
It just does not occur to some left wing feminists that some women share a different view or outlook from them, and it is not based on “internalized sexism,” but from research, or lived experience, or due to a different set of values.
@ Missy M:
The victim is not commenting here as far as I know. And considering the metaphorical beating he is going to take by coming forward and testifying, I would not call that helpless but brave. And responsible.
Because of the nature of the accusations, there is a good chance there are more victims. With lots of support, they can be survivors.
Lea wrote:
Its another variation if political correctness which is all about silencing opposition. One can only discuss certain issues in approved ways or they are (fill in the blank)
It’s everywhere.
Missy M wrote:
State facts please. You continue with name-calling and accusations. What has been exaggerated? Who has done that? Who are you calling a helpless victim? Who are you alleging has not taken responsibility for their actions?
Missy M wrote:
*blink* Dee is letting you post. Thing is, the other commenters on this blog are not buying what you’re selling, Missy.
@ Daisy:
Maybe he forgets to take the meds. He is pulling out every trick in the book to try and make discussing this situation a sin. This stuff works on many people so why wouldn’t he think it works?
He is angry because its not working. To him, his manliness, spiritual credibility and holiness is at stake.
We just think he is immature.
I used to keep answering them back just to see how far it would go. Like a sociology experriment. They can’t take it. They can’t walk away. They blow and go on ridiculous time consuming tears. They become consumed with the “bad people” who are not shamed by them.
They are vengeful so I recommend watching your back. There are places I won’t go because I don’t want them to have my ISP. Yes, they go that far. They gave to ruin you for your perceived insubordination to them.
That movement is sicko.
Do you have any idea how glad I am to be a Done at ground zero?
Joe wrote:
Joe, he takes it so much better from a man. (Wink)
Missy M wrote:
So you’re calling Jesus ‘hysterical’ too? He didn’t mince words. He said that it would be better that someone have a millstone tied around their neck and they be killed by drowning in the deepest sea than they EVER harm a child.
Bridget wrote:
Maybe this Frank Turk guy has given me a peek into the church mentality. He does not feel he can care about, reach out to, comfort, encourage, help, validate, or support a possible victim because to do so he would have to “disown” his friend. The whole issue comes down to this one choice to him and he automatically chooses his friend.
Do not the sinners and tax gatherers do the same?
I wonder if he would go see his friend? Ask him if it is true? Offer him wise counsel that, if it is true, he should be honest, make a clean breast of it, pay the penalty of what he’s done, apologize and make restitution to his victims? I wonder if he would stand by him while he does that and help him by calling him to a higher plane? Wouldn’t that be true friendship?
I notice he doesn’t deny “Tom has done something terrible” – he just doesn’t feel that’s the issue.
@ Velour:
great comment
@ siteseer:
I think he is furious Todd copied the Chantry article from Pyro. It has things in it that are creepy now.
Lydia wrote:
Does it ever!
I feel like these guys are always covering up, and making themselves look worse in the process. Just confront the truth, head on. Not only is it the actual christian thing to do, it’s better pr. But alas. They are so used to bullying people into silence they think it will always work.
Lea wrote:
When someone makes a big deal about how ‘moral’ they are, look out.
Missy M wrote:
LOL! You wish, hen!
Joe wrote:
The title of Turk’s last tweet is: “This is my second-to-last tweet ever.”
We can only pray.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
It appears I’ve touched another.
@ Velour:
You forget, Jesus was sinless, we are not. Tks tsk.
Lea wrote:
Dan Quayle used to do that.
@ Amy Smith:
Apparently you aren’t familiar descriptive language.
Lydia wrote:
It also kind of bothers me because the person who raises this as an issue tends to portray ANY show of emotion on a subject at all, no matter how slight, as being hysterical, irrational, over-blown, over-emotional, diva-like.
Apparently every one, all the time, on every topic (even very volatile and sensitive ones such as child abuse), is supposed to speak in only uber-Spock- the- Vulcan-like, highly logical and rational terms. (
If not, your points will be cast aside as the illogical, subjective rantings of a loon.)
And who’s to say any show of anger on my part won’t be considered or described as being “hysteria” by the Missy M’s of the world?
(None of which is to say I’ve not seen over- the- top, way emotional responses by people on the internet from time to time on other subjects. It does happen, but I’ve not really seen that in this thread, or in the OP.)
Amy Smith wrote:
Maybe I am misunderstanding Missy M. here, but if not, I am put off by her equating an eight year old yelling and whining,
“Mom, Johnny took the last cookie, and you said I could have it. He took it, not fair!”
-And a child stepping forward to tell his parents that Pastor Joe Blow molested him.
I don’t think both accusations are in the same category.
@ Amy Smith:
Apparently you aren’t familiar descriptive language.@ Brother Maynard:
From what I’ve read, if a plea might be made Tom Chantry won’t be anywhere but a prison church for quite a while so him being in a position in the church is highly unlikely.
The victims need resolution and support, always.
@ Lea:
Another example of hilariously poor rhetoric. Who is he hoping to persuade here? I can only surmise that the fanboys have been conditioned to accept illogic in defense of their Dear Leader.
@ Amy Smith:
Apparently you aren’t familiar descriptive language.@ Brother Maynard:
From what I’ve read, if a plea might be made Tom Chantry won’t be anywhere but a prison church for quite a while so him being in a position in the church is highly unlikely.
The victims need resolution and support, always. @ Daisy:
Yes, you are misunderstanding me. That narrative was simply a general one of my experiences and not related to the particular incidents of the alleged crimes. Hope that helps.
siteseer wrote:
Bingo!
Missy M wrote:
You must be trolling.
@ Missy M:
You still haven’t answered the questions.
Who are you referring to who is exaggerating?
Who is the helpless victim?
Who is not taking responsibility for their actions?
Descriptive language is of no use if no one knows who you are applying it to.
Missy M wrote:
Maybe that is a troll, dunno.
On the off chance it is not:
The Bible instructs that Jesus is to be the role model for believers. That means, if Jesus showed anger in some contexts, (what you would likely deem “hysteria”), it’s okay for followers of his to do so as well.
@ Daisy:
Sure it is okay to be angry but not hysterical.
@ Daisy:
Shh…Misty M’s comments are emotional. That is the irony of the snippets we are allowed from her. Her emotions brought her here to comment. Welcome to the club as everyone operates on some level of emotion. The key is what emotions are allowed and where. And who decides You can throw yourself on the grave of a friend in Italy with grief but I would not advise it in England. :o)
Frankly, i thought divas were all about the lime light. Thin skinned is not something I would have thought of since they have to work hard for applause. So when people tell me I know exactly what descriptive language means and asking for clarification is somehow disingenuous, the only thing to do is smile.
The Pyro guys referred to female bloggers as divas and before that quoting Knox, a monstrous regiment of women. Little men with big egos.
@ siteseer:
I was talking about my own experiences. Referencing my background but I already said this.
Missy M wrote:
I think it would help us understand your definition of hysterical with actual examples from the OP.
JeffB wrote:
RE Point 1.
I seriously doubt Deb, Dee, Amy of Watch Keep, and Julie Anne over-see spiritual abuse blogs for fame, glory, and profit or just for kicks and giggles.
Most of the rest of the rest of Christendom (denominations, organizations, celebrity Christians) seem more apt to cover up, hide, and dismiss things such as child sex abuse or domestic violence, rather than give the victims a platform.
RE Point 2.
My stab at it:
He seems to be saying that Christian blogs such as this one are -unfairly singling out him and/or his buddy Chantry, when they should be chasing after all 100 other accused Christian child molesters,
-if they don’t spend equal time on all 100 other accusations this week, they are somehow biased or out to get Frank Turk.
-And, if Turk was not friends with the alleged perv, nobody would be going after the alleged perv at all (which I find highly doubtful, and this again shows how self-absorbed Turk is)
Missy M wrote:
Who says? The Bible doesn’t say it’s wrong to be hysterical.
Nobody at this blog is being hysterical.
I don’t spend a lot of time reading blogs like I once did so been a while since I showed up here.
Frank Turk and the Pyromaniacs…are being just what their deterministic platonic “god” has irresistibly caused them to be.
The first thing I thought when reading this post was the same line from Hamlet that others have referenced above…if Turk is mouthing off because he’s miffed opl are paying too much attention to hom and his friendship with Chantry, imo he would have done better to have kept his trap closed. But no…! We have to prove how smart and intelligent we are so we have to try and keep the minions in their places.
It would be laughable were it not for the fact that the real victims (ok, “alleged” victims) are coveniently hidden away while Turk and his barbarian hordes spew their garbage.
I once used to read the Pyro blog. I stopped after realising that they display zero Christian character. It made me question the value of anything they say when there is no fruit of the Spirit evident.
Clanging cymbals, as someone has pointed out above.
Again, the very real victims have been deftly sidelined….maybe that was Turk’s intention all along?
Reminds me another of the Bard’s lines: Truth will out; echoing what our Lord Himself says (Luke 8:17)
@ Lydia:
If pretending to be a psychoanalyst and creating a narrative about why I showed up to comment is important to you, I’m all for it.
@ Daisy:
You have your opinion, I have mine. Live with it.
Lydia wrote:
They conveniently forget that the Bible says that women are also made in God’s image, daughters of the King, and are their spiritual equals.
Lydia wrote:
This is my response when people say women are ’emotional’ and men are ‘logical’.
That is not what I see.
Missy M wrote:
It appears as though I’ve touched a nerve.
Don’t be so hysterical.
(Are you Frank Turk per chance, using his Missy M name? Turk cannot handle criticism or dealing with those who hold opposing opinions, either, just like you.)
Missy M wrote:
All I can do is go by words you came here to type. I am confused why I should think anything else but what you have already told us?
Missy M wrote:
Why hello pot, you should meet the kettle.
Honestly, you’ve been attributing motives to folks since about your first foray to this thread, and psychoanlaying posters, by telling them they are acting out of “hysteria” or a nerve of theirs has been touched.
@ Daisy:
“I seriously doubt Deb, Dee, Amy of Watch Keep, and Julie Anne over-see spiritual abuse blogs for fame, glory, and profit or just for kicks and giggles.”
Sheer projection on Turk’s part. These are what motivate HIM.
@ one of the little people:
You are now the official TWW mob diva. Wear that title with the dignity it deserves.
Missy M wrote:
You have gone too far. You are no going into slow moderation. This means I will read your comment when I get around to it and approve it if you get you act together.
@ Missy M:
You need to go and join Team Pyro. You’ll be happier there. I will not have you insulting readers, some of whom have been hurt.
And you are not banned, merely being moderated very slowly. If you act nice, your comment will be allowed. If not, well, maybe it will get approved after New Year 2019.
@ Max:
Gee, thanks!!!
@ Diva Darlings:
You are making me laugh.
Dan from Georgia wrote:
I must have you in my mob. You can hit them over the head with your very cool stick!
@ Muff Potter:
You can be in charge of our mob’s You Tube Channel.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Now, I understand what you mean when you say “hen”, just as I was the only one laughing in a movie theater when that endearment was used in “Chicken Run” by the Scottish bird; however, there might be some thinking you’re using a pejorative 😉
Thanks Dee! Swinging away….!
@ Daisy:
I dunno, I think Jesus was pretty hysterical taking a whip into the temple and over turning tables.
dee wrote:
I think I may get myself a small crown.
@ dee:
Let’s see, I’ve been insulted as a woman in being called a man but that is just fine with you. That is actually abuse, the thing you claim your blog exists to fight.
As for joining some group who is full of themselves and minimize serious charges of child abuse, I find your suggestion not just insulting but reprehensible in light of my already stated support of victims of abuse but it isn’t surprising.
I will tell you this however which is how and when I came upon your blog. A member in our Tuesday ladies Bible study was going through an abuse situation and as she researched the internet she found your blog and told us about it.
Independently we all came to the same conclusion, including her, that much of what goes on here is honestly just plain incurable misery.
Her hope was to get past things and move on. She ended up going to therapy for a year or so.
She still meets with us at our Bible study and has shared her path to wholeness. One of the things we do now and then is visit this blog and from it she shares all of the things she sees that are counterproductive.
That is one of the reasons I don’t comment often. It is usually only when someone mentions this blog in Bible study.
Moderate however you think you need to, that is your business but it won’t discourage me from telling you what I see. Moderating me might make you feel good but it doesn’t change the truth or your conscience.
What do you call a male diva?
….. Sr. Pastor ????
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
Deanna Holmes: I too am a lover of the muslin fabric and am pleased that you identify with it!! However did you possibly mean “muslim”? Because I am fine with that too, and have been considering wearing the hajib just to confront others with their prejudice and fears. But kinda chicken too!! Haven’t decided yet–what do you think, even if it is off-topic?
Missy M wrote:
“Missy M’s” style is really familiar… give me a little time, I can’t quite place it yet…
Dee,
I really, really, want a place in your mob.
“Gail UNITED STATES on Sat Dec 10, 2016 at 12:19 PM said some hysterical remarks.
“I would love to join your mob, maybe I can run factory where whips are made.” ( ;
Sorry, I was reluctant to join a mob on Twitter.
Daisy wrote:
They conveniently forget that the Bible says that women are also made in God’s image, daughters of the King, and are their
spiritualequals.There, fixed it for you.
Ron Oommen wrote:
This, and its corollary. Scripture is clear about what marks the works of the flesh, include strife and anger and jealousy. Team Pyro proudly displays the works of the flesh.
I’ve been called a diva in my lifetime a few times. I’ve been told that I get hysterical about things a time or two. But we need to get hysterical about all this child abuse that is going on. If this is what it takes, that we “shout it from the rooftops”, then so be it. I will gladly take on the title of Texas Diva in the fur mob. I’m getting pretty tired of this business of saying “but God has forgiven me, so we don’t need to go the police”. Correct me on this, but doesn’t it say in the Bible that yes we are forgiven, but we will have to pay for our crimes. How many times have we heard this same thing in court rooms across the country. The perpetrator uses this to try and get a lighter sentence. I believe that God forgives each and every one of us for our sins. But there is a big difference in me telling a person that their dress looks good on them, (when it doesn’t) and in committing child abuse, rape or any other of abuse. It’s just not the same. We just can’t compare apples to oranges.
I think a new tactic should be to start calling some of these Calvnistas “divas”. Because they are about as diva as it gets.
@ ishy:
DivaNistas?
Missy M wrote:
???
What does that have to do with what He commanded about protecting children?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Second that.
@ nancyjane:
I chose my screen name “Velour” because our lovely hostesses here The Deebs (Dee and Deb) have been accused of being “Daughters of Satin [sic]”. I figured I would be a fabric square in the Crazy Quilt here at The Wartburg Watch.
drstevej wrote:
Ding, ding, ding. We have A WINNER!
My ex-NeoCalvinist pastor is a Male Diva along with the pastors/elders.
dee wrote:
I imagine that this is supposed to be some kind of parody of a “when did you stop beating your wife” gotcha question.
Still weird, though.
Velour wrote:
Classic neo-Cal theology: “We Calvinstas pastors all do really bad things, so the pew peons must be HORRIBLE!” The thing they don’t realize is that most non-Christians don’t do even do stuff like that, much less the majority of Christians.
The thing people don’t realize when they come on here to troll is that we’ve all read so much Calvinista drivel that we can spot their tactics a mile away.
Velour wrote:
Now I want to be a fabric! Can I be a fabric, too?
But what fabric am I?
ishy wrote:
You can be whatever fabric your heart desires. Ishy AKA [name of fabric]
ishy wrote:
Seriously! Remember Paul ranting about that guy who does stuff even the pagans won’t do?
That’s Tom Chantry to the whole world.
ishy wrote:
I’m going to be flannel! Who doesn’t love a good flannel?
ishy wrote:
Of course it’s that rabid Neo-Calvinist drivel. Those Pharisees haven’t met Jesus.
ishy wrote:
Lovely. Three squares down for The Wartburg Watch “Crazy Quilt”, a bunch more to go!
Velour wrote:
We have the following “squares” in our TWW virtual ‘Crazy Quilt’:
*Satin – 2 squares of it for The Deebs (Deb and Dee)
*Muslin (aka Mirle) – 1 square
*Flannel (aka Ishy) – 1 square
*Velour – 1 square
I think Beaks in the U.K. once before posted she’d be a fabric. I can’t remember what it was…tye dye or something artistic.
I wonder what Nick will be? 1 square of Scottish Tartan? What family?
Ron Oommen wrote:
Their god has way more in common with the gods of the Greeks and the gods of the Canaanites. The God of Abraham isn’t anything like their god.
Edward wrote:
As attorney/child advocate/author Andrew Vachss says about the enablers of sex predators: “They aren’t just sick, but sickening.”
drstevej wrote:
Lol!
siteseer wrote:
Are we sure about Ms. Missy’s gender? As a woman, she comes across too supportive of things she should be opposed to … unless she’s been indoctrinated out of her right mind by the hyper-Calvinists. Perhaps Missy is really one of the Pyro boys? Mark Driscoll used to troll blogs as “William Wallace II” (true story). The potty-mouth preacher enjoyed cussing other commenters … he subsequently apologized to his church for his alias abuse. What a nutcase!
Max wrote:
Great minds think alike.
I got the distinct impression that our troll was a male. I wouldn’t call anyone who does that “a man”.
ishy wrote:
I would go with Corduroy.
I had a few pairs of corduroy pants when I was a kid.
I’m going to be damask: fine lustrous fabric with flat patterns and a satin weave.
dee wrote:
That’s steen! , Steen! Franken-steen!
Daisy wrote:
I am loving it.
Amy Smith wrote:
Miss Amy, you got it!
[aka Velour, aka MtnShepherdess on Twitter]
“He also accused me of violating the 9th commandment ‘Thou shall not kill.'”
There’s been a mix up. The 9th commandment prohibits bearing of false witness against one’s neighbor. The prohibition against murder is the 6th commandment. That would make more sense using it in his statement.
Leaders are more powerful when they’re humble, new research shows
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/12/08/leaders-are-more-powerful-when-theyre-humble-new-research-shows/
Snippet from that page:
– – – – – – – –
By Ashley Merryman
Humility’s benefits turn out to be surprisingly concrete.
In July 2016’s Personality and Individual Differences, Duke University researchers reported on a study conducted with 155 participants.
At the experiment’s onset, some people conceded their opinions weren’t always right, and–with new evidence–they’d change their views.
The researchers considered them as intellectually humble. Still others were intellectually arrogant: they insisted they were rarely wrong, and they never changed their mind.
@ George:
Missy M wrote:
If being angry that children are being abused and victims not cared for is being a diva, then being a diva is a badge of honor. If someone is more torqued that someone is supposedly passive aggressive than they are that actual children are being abused in a place where they should be safe-then do not be surprised when people do not care to take you seriously.
@ Daisy:
Oh wow. I’ve skimmed down farther on that page, and it also says:
– – – – – – –
Leaders are more powerful when they’re humble, new research shows
(article on Washington Post By Ashley Merryman)
Studies have shown that those low in humility overreact during conflicts. They double-down and retrench. They strike out when angered, they plot their revenge.
If they’re the actual wrongdoers, they refuse to apologize or accept responsibility. Instead, they blame their victims.
The humble, on the other hand, are more pro-social. They build connections. They’re more helpful, tolerant, sensitive and accepting of differences.
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous,
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Clearly, Missy M is CLUELESS about our blog. We have worked so hard over these last 7 years to report on important matters that not many in the Christian world are willing to cover. We spend countless hours each week writing posts, responding to comments, and answering emails AND WE DON’T EARN A DIME!
I dare her to walk a mile in our shoes. DIVA? Not on your life!
Doulos comes closer to describing the Deebs. Here is the most fitting definition:
1c) (link) "devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests”
I have, at times, neglected my family and sacrificed sleep because I am so devoted to serving others through our blogging efforts.
Diva – what a joke!!!
@ Deb:
Amen, Deb!
You and Dee are terrific! From the bottom of our hearts, thank you.
Muff Potter wrote:
I just saw the opera L’amour de Loin today, and it had a scene where a character says, “the old gods may have done such a thing, but not You”, after another character suggests that another character’s death was God’s punishment for her behavior.
I have not read all the comments to see if this archived snapshot of the Teampyro post that Frank Turk has pulled off has been posted. If it hasn’t, here it is
Archived post that Frank Turk does not want you to see
David C wrote:
He says “I abhor your curiosity”.
What a stinking mongrel. All his theology and systematics is completely wasted. No fruit of the Spirit…..and certainly no wisdom. If he and his ilk had the sense to keep quiet they wouldn’t be attracting so much attention. Learned fool….
Ron Oommen wrote:
Sorry, hadn’t finished.
He does not get it through his head that it is not curiosity that leads people to that page – it’s a desire to understand who this man is. Needless to say; I abhor Frank Turk’s self-righteous posturing…bringing shame to Christ and His body. But shameless is as shameless does….
Daisy wrote:
Seeking “humility” to become powerful…totally misses the point.
Do people even THINK before they speak???
Muff Potter wrote:
“Frank Turk and the Pyromaniacs” – that’s gotta be a name for a rock band!
Ron Oommen wrote:
Bingo. This is someone who allegedly has lived a complete double life using the trappings of ministry and godliness as cover for who they really are.
I glanced over the Twitter exchange with RScottClark who I assume is the Heidlecast guy ( they Love their confessions,) and two things stood out that he kept using as universal truth for charges of child molestation and discussing public charges of a minister.
Matthew 18
Ecclesiastical process
These Reformed guys live in a state church mentality bubble world that just makes them clueless.
How can their ecclesiastical process work outside their denomination or tribe? That is what those in their tribe agree to follow. They can implement church discipline on them for saying, “I believe the victim” but outside the tribe they have no power to control thought or speech.
Matthew 18 is problematic (they always trot it out)
If people would just read it instead of allowing a guy on stage tell them how it fits every situation concerning evils of those in ministry.
I once heard Jay Adams teach it by adding a step that is not in there. He added that you must take the issue to elders before taking it to the entire church. Totally self serving. You can’t believe a thing they teach. They were educated to arrogant ignorance and don’t know it.
Matthew 18 has nothing to do with courts or child molestation. It is for serious conflict between adult believers. All RScottCkark is trying to do is shut pew sitters down from daring to discuss Chantry or support the victim.
They are scared to death other victims are going to come forward.
@ Lydia:
If we are going to use the Bible to deal with pederasty, we are better off using the millstone passage…
Lydia wrote:
Nothing new under the sun, my friends.
@ Deb:
I would just add that this current situation is exhibit A why TWW and others need to continue to shine a light in dark corners. Here we have fundamentalist-reformed “celebrities” actively, angrily, and wickedly attempting to cover up pederasty and silence any and all comers. Disgusting, vile, antichrist behavior. Thank you, Deebs, for continuing to stand up for victims and hopefully the future of Christian churches will be safer for all.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Yes, the passage communicates a millstone around the neck into the sea would be better for them. Better than what is the really scary question.
@ Missy M:
Here you go. I think this might be helpful to you.
one ae the wee folk wrote:
Well, yes and no… 😉
siteseer wrote:
I’ve never read Turkish Frank’s stuff in detail, but is it his style, perchance, whereof “Missy” reminds you?
Although sock-puppeting was going on long before the internet (it happens wherever there’s anonymity), the term was adapted particularly for online behaviour in which access is both anonymous and free. And it wouldn’t be the first time a sock puppet was used here on TWW to support a very specific cause and/or individual.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Exactly!
PaJo wrote:
I think that is a dumb headline name. Maybe she meant more effective, though? As leaders.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia wrote:
That millstone passage is actually in matthew 18!
This chantry guy has already been confronted. He’s been charged. We’re way beyond all of that now.
PaJo wrote:
Due respect, PaJo, but actually the article whereof Daisy spake pushes quite the opposite point. I’ve just read it, and I can recommend it – I think you’d like it (and it’s quite short, so it’s worth a wee look). Here are a few additional excerpts therefrom:
Contrast that with, for instance, Mars Hill plc, at which only one person’s success ever mattered (and it wasn’t “Jesus”).
I’d have used common-gender pronouns, but otherwise, I entirely get that.
And perhaps most importantly, the article talks about what humility actually is (and is not):
Maybe a prominent Christian leader could write a book on humility.
And just one more (as this comment, unoriginal to begin with, is already getting long):
THAT is exactly the kind of person I’ve observed being drawn to the Watchtower, and Driskle, alike.
Lea wrote:
They can’t wrap their heads around this. The charges are in the public square. Trying to shut down discussion or manage what is allowed is ridiculous. They really do fancy themselves as some sort of spiritually correct gatekeepers for all believers.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
There is a spirit flowing through hyper-Calvinist ranks that is not holy. It gets uglier the more it is challenged. The American church has become a haunt for the ungodly masquerading as godly. Many religious institutions need to be exorcised of wickedness in high places before they can be occupied by believers.
Lydia wrote:
It is really strange. Getting mad at Dee for basically linking news articles!
And all of those people on the sex offender list are public too. This isn’t even gossip. This isn’t rumors.
@ David C:
Thanks for the link David … an interesting post on James MacDonald by Tom Chantry. While I found myself agreeing with much of what Chantry said about MacDonald, it screams of jealousy on Chantry’s part regarding MacDonald’s success. MacDonald, a prominent New Calvinist, recently signed on with the SBC after previously slamming the denomination’s congregational polity – an affront to millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists. As a non-Southern Baptist at the time, he was also a leader on the advisory panel for SBC’s “The Gospel Project” Sunday School curriculum, which many are finding to really be “The Calvinist Project.” Neither men could be considered friends to Southern Baptists. Both are so weighted down in arrogance, I don’t see how they can walk.
Deb wrote:
A selfless pursuit that often encounters the selfish. Thank you Deb and Dee for staying the course.
Two comments not approved by the same individual due to ad hominem attacks continuing behind the scenes. Apparently she, and her Bible study, don’t like us so I believe it is time for her to move along. She can share this video with her BFFs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWQbuJ24Wzg
Frank Turk certainly understands that the preaching of the word of God must be orchestrated by an outward call of God Almighty Himself.
Q. Since when does an outward call of God include the practice of pedophillia or the support or harboring of pedophiles by the clergy?
Q. When the clergy practice of pedophillia is exposed, what should be the response of the Reformed demomination or the exposed religious group at large?
q. If and when the pastor; the subject of this blog post, is convicted, will Frank Turk and his Reformed colleagues bring comfort and support for the known victims?
Q. Will Frank Turk and his Reformed colleagues encourage and move toward mandatory clergy reporting?
—
@ dee:
Good Lord! I hope you never have to send me that video!
Sometimes, it just doesn’t seem worth a fight. I have no trouble with disagreement of our blog and our stance. But went it becomes all about what terrible mothers we are or that we are coddling victims, it is over. Find other blogs and interactions to support your POV and communication style. Better yet, start a blog and see how far you get by telling victims to get a grip.
And, in case Team Necro™ is reading here, you have gone way too far. If you want to see what I am saying, read Nate Spark’s latest blog post in which Turk starts the necrophilia stuff with him, just as he did with me in the comment above. But with Nate, he has gone too far.
TWW friend, Bill Kinnon, was nicknamed Team Pyro *Team Necro.”
I am shocked that any followers of Jesus would go down this road. I wonder if John MacArthur, the guru for these boys, knows about this.
https://natesparks130.com/2016/12/10/rhetorical-questions-frank-turk/
I am so sad today as I see, more and more, how victims are sidelined by these Calvinista. Some days, it is two steps forward and then it is one step backwards. Reaching out to the goal until I am called home.
Hi Steve
I originally screwed it up until Deb corrected me. I forgot to change it on the post. Thank you for reminding me. The last two days have been most trying with the attacks regarding out stance on beleiving the victims in the Tom Chantry situation.
Missy M wrote:
I haven’t read all the comments by Missy M. I’m pretty sure she’s just tossing grenades for a reaction but here’s some “meat and potatoes stuff”
If the story is true, the abused woman read the blog and then wound up in a year of therapy rather than “get past things and move on”. It’s like therapy is considered a bad thing. If this blog led an abused woman to seek professional help to get through an abusive situation then I would say “mission accomplished”
It sounds like there’s a bit of groupthink in this bible study. This woman continues to visit a “counterproductive” blog. There seems more to this situation. Maybe peer pressure forces her to denounce the blog while seeking answers to her issues.
Victims of abuse cannot “get past things and move on”. Whatever the courts do with Chantry, it doesn’t erase what the victims went through.
If victims of abuse really can “get past” it then why do they come forward, twenty, thirty sometimes fifty years after the events? Because they need to be heard, they need to know they were victims, they need some form of justice – even if it’s letting the abuser know they didn’t get away with it. Even if it’s getting acknowledgement that this happened to them.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant – I believe one commenter stated eloquently.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. How many unreported victims will be empowered to come forward by hearing these stories. By hearing that they will be believed.
Controlling churches that follow draconian interpretations of scripture have become incubators for abuse. Doctrines like complementarianism devalue women, slavish obsession with Old Testament laws written by Iron Age patriarchs that expound hatred of all that they consider sinful (causing untold misery to those believers who don’t fit into the correct gender bucket). It is only in an evangelical church that I heard the word “God” and “hate” in the same sentence. Even Gary Thomas (him of the recent “abuse revelation”) stated to an abused woman that God “hates” divorce before hearing her story.
In many ways they are worse than the secular organizations in that they encourage their adherents to shun secular justice and secular medicine (including counselling and therapy). Everything must be hidden. Appearances must be maintained. If those of us who embrace our liberal secular society are so horrible, why do you care what we think? Because when we find you, our laws will come for you.
I am not a Christian, I have issues with the Bible being used as roadmap to life (sorry, everyone but I’m just being honest) but TWW has drawn a line in the sand when it comes to abuse that transcends doctrine or belief. They’ve very clearly stated that this their “hill to die on” and that’s why this is one the only religious blogs I will consider reading.
This enlightened, rational approach to Christianity in general is sorely needed. Reform will not come by telling victims to “get past it and move on”. For too long the church has relaxed in safety of its own delusions. The only way to get past church abuse is to confront it and go through it.
one of the little people wrote:
I fear that you may be right. There is always a reason not to believe a pedophile is not a pedophile. I sometimes wonder if it is an inability to admit that one got take in by a pedophile for years and years.
Recently I got an email from a woman recounting a disappointing interaction with an individual who is involved in defending victims. Tis incident happened a few years ago. She asked “I bet you won’t believe me?” I told her I had no reason to doubt her. I cannot see into another’s soul. Sadly, I may have to deal with this since it involves a terrible situation.
However, if I am not willing to face head on problems in the support victim community, then I am no better than Frank Turk, Al Mohler, Mark Dever and others. I may wait until after the holidays since it is a past situation. I want to enjoy a bit of time with my family.
My kids have convinced me to make pierogis that my Russian grandma (Bubchi) taught me to make. That is a full day f work and I look forward to doing it.
Missy M wrote:
Yikes. This is what you do in “ladies” bible study?
I do agree that what it taking place in most of Christendom is “incurable misery”. I disagree it is coming from survivors of spiritual and other abuses.
The amount and frequency alone of the evils perpetuated by Christian leaders and institutions is overwhelming and epidemic. There are many reasons for this too lengthy to get into.
I just don’t recognize their Jesus.
All one can do is get the word out and warn. Why people think it will change, I don’t know. Evils committed using Jesus as a beard are not exactly going to disappear in the systems that worked to cover it up.
One of the biggest problems is censoring in the church/parachurch orgs trying to hide all the evils. That is where blogs come in. My position with blogs is they can cut down on the processing time for those spiritually and otherwise abused. At most churches people are told discussing conflict or wrong doing is gossip/sin/slander. and people buy it. Like your ladies group. I don’t buy “independently came to the same conclusions” in such groups. I spent years training on group think tactics and even blogs that are open to all have to fight that problem. It is so easy to falk into that trap.
There is nothing in the world more life affirming than a stranger telling your same horror story for which you have been alone . You think to yourself, I am not nuts like the wrong doers claim I am. I just happened to be the target because I disagreed or did not go along, etc and everyone else is still drinking the kool-aid. That is part of the journey to healing.
That person might save 10 years of wilderness processing. Spiritual abuse in addition to other abuses encompasses everything in a person. It takes years to process. (I recommend reading only the Gospels for several years, praying, etc. No sermons, teachers telling you what Jesus meant. Rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you)
That processing and meeting Christ is a very good thing. And healthy. The goal is recognizing the problem and helping others in their own time.
For some reason you couldn’t let that be. Why comment? The only thing you accomplished was to insult many different kinds of people who think differently from you. Do they teach that in “ladies” bible study? You did not even give us anything substantial to go on. We were supposed to understand what you deem “hysteria” with no examples.
I get that you and your ladies group don’t like these sort of blogs. I have no problem with that but if you want interaction at least give examples of your vague declarations and what your ladies group view as counterproductive
Max wrote:
For people who supposedly hate gossip, sure is gossipy! I quizzed your kids at school and they were THE WORST. They don’t know the ‘Gospel’TMCALVIN at all.
@ Bill M:
Yes, it is. The goal is to make the other person appear unbalanced and not worth listening to.
@ GC:
When any conversation turns to necrophilia, things have gotten just pain looney.
Missy M wrote:
This is for everyone else since Missy will no longer be commenting here. Note this example of passive aggressive nonsense. This person reminds me so much of Frank Turk.
dee wrote:
Yes, I’m sure there are lots of other sock-puppies who agree with him/her.
On a better subject, I love Bocelli’s knack of singing top A as though he were just talking.
Since no discussion of a great tenor would be complete without it, here’s his Nessun Dorma.
dee wrote:
Fran Turk? Just how many multi-gendered identities does this entity have?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Hmm… I promise you all that it did originally say “Fran”. Unfortunately I now look silly, which has never happened before.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Bless him…
Best regards,
God
Missy M wrote:
People like you make me so mad, because you’re a big reason this keeps happening in churches.
Fine, you say you side with victims, but you want everybody to keep it all under wraps. Keep it quiet. Keep it secret. Keep it “polite”. And that’s why pedophiles and sexual abusers keep using the church to find their prey. Because people like you help them hide. Y don’t want anybody to talk about it outside your little group.
And many of us here are victims, so your friend isn’t the end all authority on what victims think should be done or what is productive.
Also, the next time you start confronting other women about being “hysterical” or “divas” maybe you should think about your language, because that’s exactly the language abusers use to silence their victims.
Jack wrote:
I wouldn’t go that far. It may take a long time, and it may always have an impact on your life. That doesn’t mean you can’t live a productive one. But being heard and acknowledged, or working on groups to prevent child abuse, or taking control in one way or the other can help.
Missy M wrote:
Why even bring this up? No one on this blog has done this and to say this on a blog where victims may be reading and trying to understand what has happened to them, or might be trying to process what they have been living through, is one of the meanest things a person could say!
So, Missy M (the Christian mother of three children, who attends Bible studies) you and people like you are why victims are further abused in many Christian environments, and YOU are why I would never advise a victim of abuse to try to find help in a church, especially if they were abused by someone in a church. YOU, Missy M, don’t exhibit the grace or power of Christ.
Missy M wrote:
This is the comment that led me to cut her off. First of all, women’s Bible studies and fellowships as an example of training for understand abuse is laughable. Most of these studies center on fill in the blanks, rigid discussion rules and lectures. The emphasis is on submission in marriage, something that often leads to abuse in the fist place.
Secondly, I never believe the “I, too, am a victim.” I don’t know if Missy is even female.If she was seriously abused, then I am even more concerned for her narrative. She may be stuffing her pain under a thin veneer of the conquering Christian women. Her anger, directed towards me, might be a coping mechanism because she is unable to express anger of what has happened to her.
Finally, her last sentence blames victims for not taking responsibility. For what? Getting abused? Then she starts with the *helpless victims” all while she, of course is Susie Conquerer.
This stuff is abusive. My guess is the *Missy* is involved in a church or has a friend that is being accused of abuse. Who might that be…Tullian, Tom Chantry, CJ Mahaney? or someone else. But this is one mad individual.
i allow raucous debate but this is palin stupid, abusive nonsense. This is exactly what TWW fights.
@ Bridget:
He is still tweeting as of this morning. I truly believe he is a bit unbalanced.
@ one of the little people:
The Diva Mob Full of Holy Fury is born! Rejoice and serve it well.
Missy M wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that a narrative, in the case of children being abused, is a lopsided act and will have a lopsided narrative? To compare what is being discussed about Tom Chantry to your children’s narratives about a squabble is disgusting and low. It is sin leveling.
Lea wrote:
I think they are becoming concerned because their are voices outside of their camp that are being heard. If I am smart, I will be ready for all sorts of attacks on my credibility and person. So be it. As I have said, the Deebs met in Moms in Touch and are nobodies in the eye of the celebrity leadership.
But we care, and care deeply. Maybe God uses average people to care for others. After all, he chose a teenage girl to bear His Son and fishermen and prostitutes to spread His word.
Muff Potter wrote:
Yep and it is decent folks like the Muffster who is shaking things up.
one of the little people wrote:
I think this sums up the whole mess. “Oops, Chantry.”
dee wrote:
Having Driscoll flashbacks. The absurd and creepy shock jock mentality
@ Joe:
LOL
@ Daisy:
I am wondering if John MacArthur is aware of this stuff? Is Turk the voice for “What MacArthur Would Say If he Could Without Ruining the Donations for His Large Income.”(Some stuff is coming out about that.)
@ Brother Maynard:
Ditto
Bridget wrote:
Yes! A child being groomed and then molested is always lopsided. It is the evil art of deception and done in private on purpose brain gaming an undeveloped brain for sexual perversion. There are no 3 witnesses. It can only be lopsided. Which is why peds are hard to catch.
Lea wrote:
Well, Al Mohler set the standard for telling jokes about sex abuse scandals…
In the meantime, why would something like that come up? It would not be my go to insult. I wonder, really wonder, what is going on.
Lydia wrote:
This sums up my concerns. Let me add to that the fact that he got married sometime after the reported incident and now has male children. You can infer what I am concerned about.
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
But she has gone to women’s Bible studies. She is an expert.
Lydia wrote:
It is enough to raise concerns that there are some things that have not come out.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
She is an amateur.
Missy M wrote:
Is this nuts or what? I think we need to pray for her.
Jack wrote:
I am starting to wonder if abused lady bible study friend went to the Bible study approved Nouthetic Counseling. From what I read of Missy M comments they reeked of a Nouthetic bent.
Missy M wrote:
This is solid commentary? Aack! I would love to know which group he is with. Maybe she is Turk, Part 2
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
if this isn’t the case with this person, I will be in shock. $10 or my famous sugar cookies to the first person who can find out who she is defending.
Lydia wrote:
Admirals in leaky rowboats with a few people to bail the water.
Missy M wrote:
Poor thing-having to repeat herself since she is the great communicator for ????
To whoever sent Missy
Try harder. At least get someone with a devastating wit to make us laugh while we debate.
Ron Oommen wrote:
I am suspicious that this has been going on for a long time, and not just for Chantry. Thank God for the Internet.
@ Missy M:
Lydia, this comment was my final straw. This woman is a mean cuss.
dee wrote:
So he lied about it being his second to last tweet and not tweet again for a week or so??? Go figure.
@ Daisy:
The same thought has occurred to me. The iP is out of Hampton, Virgina.
JeffB wrote:
My husband wants to know where the money is. He is really excited…
@ Dan from Georgia:
You honor the Mob with your service and bat.
one of the little people wrote:
I hope you mean the one that goes on the top of your head since there is no monetary compensation for being the Mob. The benefit is being with like minded haters.
From political observations over the years demonstrations or protests usually arise when a group senses injustice and they are not being heard or are stonewalled. The motivation can be either from a just cause or from deceptive leaders. It is up to the observer to determine whether to denigrate the group as a mob. Running around screaming obscenities, breaking windows and setting fires is one thing but I’ve found that when someone describes a group such the one here as a mob, they are partisans and are only interested in casting aspersions.
Well, Dr Fundystan and I will be at temporary (if good-natured) loggerheads as our respective fitba’ teams contest the spoils at Anfield. And it’s not going well for the men in red approaching half time: 2-1 to the Hammers. Liverpool’s wretched run continues.
dee wrote:
Yes. And when I read it, I was thinking about the ted talk i saw that mentioned ‘duping delight’ in sociopaths (i think). I was thinking slipping in things that could have double meanings might be something someone like that would do.
Missy M wrote:
Missy is obviously inexperience with communication on blogs. Just like one can never believe a pedophile to tell the truth, one cannot believe anything someone says about themselves on the Internet until it has been confirmed.
Frankly, I envision her as a tall skinny man with a perpetual frown, carrying a Bible with which to hit uppity women and victims over the head. Instead of the Christmas Story in Luke and The Night before Christmas, he makes his family sit through a reading of “Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God.”
Smiling is not allowed unless a bridge collapses and kills 20 people because it is glorifying to God. Yep. that’s how I see this Missy person.
Bill M wrote:
Yes. A mob is sort of different from some people on the internet reading a news report about child abuse and saying ‘omg! This is terrible’. That’s not a mob.
drstevej wrote:
Funniest rejoinder of the week.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Long time opera fan here. I’ll have to check out L’amour de Loin. Sounds like the libretto has points of interest.
Gail wrote:
You are hereby appointed “Mistress of the Whips.” Please make sure mine has a gold handle. Serve your mob well!
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Well done!
@ Harley:
Remember David danced so heartily in worship that his tunic exposed his undies. The observers thought the disciples were drunk when touched with the gift of the Spirit. Rejoice loudly. Let the curmudgeons of the world frown and proceed with a 2 hour sermon on Leviticus.
By the way, for Jane Austen lovers, I enjoyed streaming Emma which if free on Amazon Prime.
@ Bill M:
They are using language they hope will persuade and make some view certain groups they are against in a negative light. It only serves to dumb down the evils of a real mob rioting, looting, shutting down commerce, etc.
It is a form of sin leveling. It blows my mind this is credible these days.
They call disagreement “attacks”, jihad, hate speech, lynching, etc. It’s the way people from many walks of life communicate differences these days.
ishy wrote:
Maybe we could call them the mob of divas.
Lea wrote:
Yes, yes yes!!!
Lydia wrote:
I had Matthew 5:25-26 (mis)quoted at me to dissuade me from cooperating with the authorities in a child sexual molestation situation. This by a popular bible teacher and leader in our church. When I challenged him and pointed out that that scripture has nothing to do with child molestation he replied, “Jesus didn’t give exceptions.” These people are not interested in truth, only their opinion matters. And what they completely miss is it’s their agenda driving the misapplication of God’s precious word. It has zero to do with truth.
Velour wrote:
I love the imagery.
Edward wrote:
I get what he was doing. But he went so far overboard. He told Nate to stay away from corpses. Why necrophilia? I think something is really weird over there.
ishy wrote:
Well said!
ishy wrote:
Dotted swiss?
ishy wrote:
Welcome, Flannel. We need your warmth.
Max wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised if he used more than one name and is still trolling. He has never dealt with his serious issues. He just ran
@ Amy Smith:
I could see you wearing a gold damask gown. Hey-aren’t you one of the minions of Satin?
Deb wrote:
Love it, girlfriend
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Thank you! I love this.
@ David C:
Thank you for this. I would love to post it but I can only post 40% without getting in trouble. Maybe I will just put it up the first two paragraphs and link to the rest.
dee wrote:
The sad thing is even when the evidence of child rape and abuse is presented to many supporters of these evil perpetrarors, many in the church will still support them over the victims. It becomes less about whether or not the charges are true and more about their “heroic” support of a brother who’s fallen. There are too many in the church who have been infected by a false definition of grace and believe that lie is the cure for every evil. It’s almost as if supporting the victims and repudiating the perpetrators challenges their belief in the power of Jesus to save.
roebuck wrote:
How about Fran Turk and the Necro™maniacs
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Thank you. I have found my hill to die on in this life.
dee wrote:
You mean he thinks he’s a small bird?
@ Anonymous:
Great questions/comments.
My *prophecy* No, this group will not move to mandatory clergy reporting due to an underlying belief that this should be handled internally by them. They see pedophilia as just another sin that is cured with repentance. They fail to understand that it is a deeply ingrained psychiatric disorder which will hound them for the rest of their lives. They need long term psych intervention, not just confession.
Max wrote:
I think it adds a touch of class to the blog. Do you think it could be an official mob song? Time to Say Good-bye.
Jack wrote:
I was treated better by the secular detective, sheriff, and prosecutor than I was by many (not all) in my church “family”. It was a relief speaking to our wonderful, supportive detective, who said, after I told her the things my Christian brothers and sisters were saying to me, “Off the record, why are you spending any time with people who don’t support your daughter or your family? You have to realize how confusing your continuing to spend time with these people is to your daughter.” Pure wisdom.
Jack wrote:
You are more than welcome at tWW. We have a number of nonbelievers here.
@ Lea:
I would love to hear that one. Do you remember the name of it?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
One of my favorites. I would love to embed that in a post one day. I wonder what topic?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I have the ability to correct my own comments to make me look better than I am. Actually I considered leaving it because it made me giggle.
God wrote:
It is an honor to have you visit here. Might you consider leading the mob?
ishy wrote:
Darn straight!
@ one of the little people:
Before my former church turned Calvinista, there was a female police officer in my SS class that consistently warned us about pedophiles seeking out churches. People appreciated her knowledge and experience.
She isn’t there anymore, either.
Bridget wrote:
This is an important comment. Pedophilia is more than just a sin. It is also a serious psych disorder. So, “we’re all sinners” argument does not cut it here. Yes, the pedophile is a sinner. He is also much, much more and has the capacity to destroy the lives of others unlike a 3 year old having a tantrum over a toy. That is normai. Pedophilia is a dangerous psych conditions. It is abnormal.
Lydia wrote:
There is also much repressed anger. If she is telling the truth, and I don’t know if she is, she needs a counselor.
Bill M wrote:
Well said.
@ Lea:
Good thought.
Muff Potter wrote:
At first I thought someone talking about pork chops.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That would be one of the more mild pejoratives in the Scottish tongue, in that case. At least you didn’t call anyone a bampot (my younger brother’s favorite).
one of the little people wrote:
This makes me sick. Jesus was a defender of the children and said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and our government wants the pedophile turned over for prosecution.
Lydia wrote:
It’s this one: How to spot a liar | Pamela Meyer
Apparently it’s actually about lying. The duping delight thing starts around 12 minutes in? She’s talking about deceptive gestures.
https://youtu.be/P_6vDLq64gE
@ Nick Bulbeck:
He tweets like a marauding tiger.
one of the little people wrote:
because far to many people in the church are really stupid about the Bible, especially when it comes to crime.
I have enjoyed commenting here today. It was healing for me. Thank you all.
@ Lea:
Actually they do a really good truth/lie at 15 minutes in and that’s where they show the expression of duping delight.
@ one of the little people:
That makes no sense. Was the pastor claiming YOU might be thrown in prison for cooperating with the authorities?
I should amend that. It makes sense to them because you are not to question what they teach or what scripture they bizarrely misapply. They just don’t know they are ignorant.
This is why I just cannot recommend church. As much as I hate to quote scripture, this is what I think sums up what we are seeing in most of Christendom. (Keep in mind I believe “last days” refers anytime before the second coming):
3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
Team Pyro just removed the web archive of Chandry’s post. They are really worried about something.
Lea wrote:
Part of healing is also when the focus turns outward and a person who has been harmed seeks to help others suffering from abuse. They are coming alongside those still in the midst of the abuse or recently being freed from it. They speak, not because they haven’t gotten over it, but because they are encouraging those who are suffering in silence that there is hope for them too.
dee wrote:
Oops, Chantry. 😉
ishy wrote:
How about Polly Esther?
Lydia wrote:
You’re right it makes no sense. And when I got home and read what the actual scripture says, I was PISSED!! You have to understand I once held this teacher in high regard and considered him a friend. He was saying that Jesus did not allow for us to pursue our case in court, but that His command would be to deal with the situation in house. He was putting pressure on me to keep the molestation out of the hands of the secular authorities. When I asked him if the same scripture would apply if someone raped and murdered his granddaughter, he said no (Jesus is apparently ok granting an exception in that case). The crux of his persuasion was and still is, that child sexual molestation (in our situation) is not that serious and that the young man is not deserving of having his life ruined (because after all, he’s repented). I had two responses, the first was to tell him he was not qualified to decide what crimes are serious and the second was never to speak to him again.
@ Lydia:
God bless Detective T and all the professionals who deal with this stuff every day.
dee wrote:
Exhibit A…
Best regards,
God
OK-I have a copy. I can still get in but there is scrubbing going on. If it goes and you want a copy, email me.
@ Julie Anne:
It is all yours, JA
dee wrote:
Who needs a topic? Embed away!
Jack wrote:
Your entire post is excellent, Jack. I wanted to chime in on this one point. I’ve been reading Bessel Van Der Kolk, the psych that has devoted his entire career to researching and treating trauma. Researchers have found that one of the things people need in order to heal from trauma is community. That is, connection with supportive people. Victims need to be able to talk about what’s happened to them with others who will listen, believe, comfort and support them. Research has found that people do not heal in isolation- the trauma continues to control their brain.
As I read about this, I thought about the silence and isolation the church tends to enforce upon victims- completely the opposite of what they need to heal and move forward!
Van Der Kolk points out that healing is not the same as the trauma never having happened. There is no way to erase it. Healing is becoming free of trauma’s control over one’s thought processes and life.
dee wrote:
The same bible teacher responded to me that if we lived in Iran where homosexuality is the law and my son were a homosexual, he would be required under the law to turn my son in. His point was that not all laws are just and their is a higher law. Now, when you all read this you are getting a small snapshot and for some it makes you angry, but the context was that my daughter had just been milested by a close family friend and our family was devastated. The people, like this pastor, throwing this garbage at me were people I loved and respected. Their words had a lot of power. The weight was unbearable. But through it all, I kept praying and asking for the truth and I became more and more sure that the right thing was to press charges and cooperate with the police. I recognized, even in the midst of it all, that I am confident in my ability to understand the bible and to hear God, but for someone younger or less sure, they would be in a terrible place. That is why my family is speaking up. I (and my brave daughter) never want anyone else to go through abuse in the church alone. If one person comes to a blog like this and hears others saying, “We’re with you. What you’re being told is God by people you trust is a lie”, it’s worth all the time and effort and silly comments about divas, hysteria, and necrophilia (what an idiot).
dee wrote:
I refer the honourable lady to My earlier comment:
There are mobs, and there are mobs. Been leading My mob for a long time..!
Best regards,
God
Interesting Update
TWW friend, Sergius, just alerted me that Brent Detweiler may soon be releasing new information on Phil Johnson, another Team Pyro BFF. I do not know what it is about. However, I have a feeling that there is much more behind the Chantry mess that is causing such anger.
@ God:
I repent!
dee wrote:
Oh Dee, Please send some to me. I am 1/2 Russian. I miss Grandma and Grandpa’s food. They even made homemade Napoleon pastries (with farm fresh whipped cream, and homemade butter that they made themselves to use to make the pastry).
dee wrote:
Unless, of course, the crime affects them. I no longer believe it’s stupidity. I am convinced that arrogance is at the heart of it. And arrogance with a reputation for truthfulness is a very dangerous combination for the sheep, because they will believe them and the consequences in their lives can be devastating.
one of the little people wrote:
A woman at my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (9 Marxist, NeoCalvinist, Complementarian, John MacArthur-ite, etc) had the temerity to defend a man that held my sister and me hostage as children. He threatened us for more than a decade that it was his “fantasy” to “succeed in kidnapping, raping, and murdering” both my sister and me. He stalked us for years and made sexual demands of us from the time we were children, including demanding that we cut school so he could abuse us. We refused. We lived in terror.
This church nutcase demanded to know if I’d “forgiven” him, a man who is such a danger to public safety. Someone could end up dead. Apparently she’s never gotten to the part in her Bible where Jesus talked about millstones for people who harm kids.
How we resolved that level of trauma is our own business, not hers. (She’s the same nutcase who picked fights with people in record speed time at social events and told them, when she learned that they were divorced, that they had to call their ex-spouse their ‘current spouse’ because they ‘aren’t really divorced in the eyes of God’. I wonder why I even wasted my time getting dressed up and commuting to various social events to have them ruined by her level of selfishness and arrogance.)
siteseer wrote:
Bingo! What most churches want one to do is pretend it never happened. That is their definition of forgiveness.
siteseer wrote:
You lost the church (speaking in generalities here) when you said he was a psychologist.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I’M FOREVER BLOWING BUBBLES, PRETTY BUBBLES IN THE AIR…
siteseer wrote:
That’s why our community here at The Wartburg Watch has been so important to my healing and the healing of others who comment here, read here, and even lurk here.
PaJo wrote:
Beg pardon? I don’t think the lady who wrote the article was saying people should seek humility to get power.
She is saying in her article that some study showed that if someone in a leader position is humble, they make a better leader than an arrogant person.
@ Velour: I am so sorry that happened to you and your family. You should have had support from your community. It is my belief God is angry at the abuse being done in His name. What was done to you and your sister is truly a violation of the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain. Everyone gets their nickers in a twist over some unbeliever saying g dam#. Is not the grosser offense the church of Jesus silencing and ostracizing abused children and their families in the name of Christ?
nancyjane wrote:
Whatever floats your boat, seriously. And I’ll stand right behind you while you do it. (I’m not good about putting things on my head. It took me forever to figure out that scarves were good because they kept in the heat.) I’ll probably type “muslim” instead of “muslin” some day and you know what, I really don’t care. 🙂
@ one of the little people:
I wish I could say I am shocked at the despicable treatment you and your daughter received from a “Christian” leader but it no longer shocks me. It is cruel and patently evil. There is no basic sense of right and wrong anymore. There are only agendas.
Thank the Lord you cooperated. Do these people not realize there are future victims to think of, too? There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking justice but many churches want you to believe there is no such thing on earth.
David C wrote:
Like I said, the Internet is forever. Sorry Frank!
dee wrote:
I still say the more the guy talks, the more he reveals what’s swimming around in his own mind. People don’t pull their words out of a vacuum. “the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.” Luke 6:45.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thank you, yes, you get it.
I was skimming the article the other night, and I thought a lot of it could apply to Christians and people who work on church staff, even though it was about corporations and what not.
I also thought parts of it sounded like Turk’s behavior about this Chantry guy (this also reminded me of poster Missy M.):
Turk was griping on his long Tweet and show disdain that people who run ‘survivor blogs’ (as he called them) dare and deign to associate with people who don’t hold traditional, Christian, or conservative social or political views.
So this part of the article reminded me of that:
You don’t have to totally agree with someone on every topic under the sun to befriend them, dialog with them, or even learn from them.
I don’t think guys like Turk understand or appreciate that. But I think Deb, Dee, and most commentators here do.
Source for the above quotes in my post:
Leaders are more powerful when they’re humble, new research shows
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/12/08/leaders-are-more-powerful-when-theyre-humble-new-research-shows/
one of the little people wrote:
At which point “Vain Imaginings of Men or WORD OF GAWD!!!!!” gets invoked.
With a side of “SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!”
Daisy wrote:
I am laughing, imagining how Jesus could really mess up his Pharisaical world.
Lydia wrote:
i.e. “Ignorance is Bliss and I WANT EUPHORIA!”
dee wrote:
But then they would have to entertain the notion that their in house counseling and prayer sessions might in any way be insufficient or God forbid, ineffective.
It’s time for nationwide, universal mandated reporting laws for all adults 18 and over, no exceptions. It’s shameful people in the church have to be forced to report child sexual abuse.
dee wrote:
The time to stress is when these predator-enablers STOP attacking you ……. I think the attacks are evidence that you are putting light where the roaches don’t want it to shine. Some of these enablers of predators are themselves very sick people.
Every time one of these enablers attacks, they indict themselves as defenders of the unspeakable. So, I say, better to know who the ‘enemies’ are and take some comfort that they feel enough pressure to attempt to silence your voice through their attacks. They’ve made their choices. And the more enablers ‘support’ their pedophile buddies, the mores they show their own proclivities, even if they are not (yet) acting on them personally. Birds of a fether and all that.
@ one of the little people:
I have to say that nothing prepared me to find out how dismissive some people are of child molestation. Or, they say it is bad bow how can we help the perp heal?
It blew my mind. There is a barbarity involved that I cannot fathom when something so heinous is done to the most vulnerable of society.
It makes my blood boil. I wish more felt that way but for some reason some think it is normal sin. As SGM called it, typical experimenting.
Parents need to know your ex pastor thinks so little of their children.
Lydia wrote:
These guys are supposed to be Protestant. I thought Protestants believed in the priesthood of all believers, that even a plow boy could understand the Bible, and they were against popes and stuff, but they just want to be little popes themselves.
dee wrote:
But Psych is SAY-TANN-IC!
(And Scientology would agree.)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And a generous helping of grace.
@ Lea:
Thank you!
@ Velour:
If you ever visit down my way, I’ll make you some.
@ Velour:
My maiden name was Nalesnik
Lydia wrote:
They absolutely do not think there will be more victims as, 1. he cried and said he was sorry; 2. It’s not that serious – all sin is equal; 3. They have no skin in the game; 4. They are arrogant enough to believe they are that discerning.
The thing I said many times was that if we didn’t pursue the case and the young man were to molest other girls, we could not live with the fact we could have done something to stop him and didn’t. Maybe he will never offend again. I have no idea, but he is not trustworthy and the soft reaction he received by many of my former friends, almost guaranteed he was learning he could get away with it. Our conscience is clear that we did all we could to prevent him ever doing the same to some other girl. That way of thinking of course was evidence that I was bitter and vindictive.
siteseer wrote:
Turk has been around a long time in the blogosphere. He has not changed. He has always been like this just nestled in the McArthur wing of social media. Vitriolic and high drama. I don’t think I have visited Pyro in 6 years. It was bizarre there. Creepy.
There was some scuttlebut around the blogosphere that McArthur told Johnson to back off pyro. I heard he stopped posting. I have no idea how it works anymore.
The only credit I give Turk is he does not use love bombing deception to lure you in. :o).
I wonder if Pyro/Frank would be so reserved about Chantry’s alleged actions if these children were his own?
dee wrote:
Thank you, Dee!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Hmm you could be on to something.
Missy M wrote:
Maybe she’s the yin to his yang.
Missy’s sharp, passive aggressive style reminds me of the matriarch of a family at a church I once went to, which family turned out to have a lot of child sex abuse over generations.
Lydia wrote:
Brood of vipers.
I am waiting for the day that sexual abuse scandals are revealed at John MacArthur’s church and franchises. Their level of authoritarianism and contempt for women and children ratifies abuse against them.
I was at a JMac spin-off church/franchise as I call it, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. I’ve never seen so much abuse in my life. Never again will I go near a JMac church. Or a 9 Marxist church. Ditto Acts 29.
ishy wrote:
“It is reported that there is immorality among you, of a kind which does not even have a name among the goyim…”
— some Rabbi from Tarsus, in a letter to Corinth
Unepetiteanana wrote:
These guys would throw their own kids under the bus. They aren’t *real men*, they are mere males.
Harley wrote:
And the judge (usually) doesn’t buy it.
one of the little people wrote:
What a…words I can’t print here.
dee wrote:
This calls for a blast from the past:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-T9pMqzHf4
@ one of the little people:
Your child deserved to see justice pursued. She needs to know she is very valuable and it is a big huge deal when someone does that sort of evil.
If the church does not get that then Ichabod!
siteseer wrote:
And keep one hand on your wallet.
Lea wrote:
I’ve had that happen to me before on other sites and other times – share a link to a news story and some cranky person screams at me.
IFB (Baptist) guys were really bad about this around the late ’90s or early ’00s. I used to hang out on forums and had my own site or two back then.
A lot of IFB guys did not understand how the internet works.
I’d post links to stuff – stuff by other people hosted on other sites – and these IFB dudes would yell and scream at me for content by other folks. They would demand I change content that was on someone else’s server.
I’d write back and say, ‘fella, that’s not even my site. I am linking to it. I did not write it.’
They seemed to assume if you linked to something, that you wrote the thing you were linking to (even though the URL was totally different).
They also would assume if you linked to one page on one topic at site X, that you must agree with 100% of all other material on site X, even though you did not.
IFBs did not grasp how the web works. I don’t know if they’ve improved over the last 15 years or not. Probably not, though.
A couple of years ago, I was at an ex-IFB site, where the ex-IFB guy who ran it did a post about how an IFB pastor did a google image search for “Modern Family” to use such a photo on a blog post, or CD cover, or whatever.
What the IFB pastor was too dim to realize is that the modern family snap he took was from a TV show by the name of ‘Modern Family’ that promotes homosexual marriage, something which IFBs are totally against. LOL.
@ Lydia:
Thanks Lydia. Yes, my girl, and all the girls and boys, deserved justice. That’s worth fighting for.
I had never heard of “team pyro” before this. A Google search got me a rather sparse blog & a whole bunch of links to a video game.
A whole lot of feathers and not much chicken.
How influential are they in the evangelical community?
Jack wrote:
You’re not alone on that. I have been questioning how the Bible should be viewed.
Scot McKnight did several posts about this very thing on his blog, in doing a book review. Here is part one (I think there was a total of eight posts in all in this review):
Biblicism Revisited 1
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/11/17/biblicism-revisited-1/
one of the little people wrote:
You have given a solid example why we should not be submissive to men who claim authority, especially when they espouse such absurdities.
Bill M wrote:
I’m pretty sure there is no bible verse that tells us to turn off our brain and believe nonsense.
One last reflection from me on miss y. Some 8 months there was an unfortunate dustup over someone needing assistance, miss y, if it is the same person, dropped in opportunistically to condemn people here. At the time the comments betrayed a hostile agenda as there was no reasoned consideration of the dilemma being discussed. Basically she doesn’t like us, an understatement, and has occasionally dropped in to chastise all present. Maybe she is seneca’s cousin.
one of the little people wrote:
Actually he’s a psychiatrist and he’s one of my real heroes in this world http://www.traumacenter.org/about/about_bessel.php
But, yes, your observation is true. I have to wonder if this is one of the reasons they reject psychology- it reveals the secrets they want to keep hidden.
dee wrote:
Yes they are very worried. They’re as worried as the Holy See in Rome (no offense whatsoever to Christiane and HUG) was over Gutenberg’s movable type printing press.
Velour wrote:
Reminds me of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qo3o4nfiG7A
“You need a book that teaches you how to be a MAN! Not a ‘male’. Not the ‘males'”.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Oh…him. Well he’s not doing it right either.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Got one!
https://youtu.be/37HXByCFyhg
@ Missy M:
If you received blow-back, it’s because you behaved obnoxiously and condescendingly from the get-go.
You’re not here to help people who have been hurt who are victims, but to judge and insult people who are either speaking out on behalf of victims or who are victims themselves.
You say you support victims, but your attitude and actions in the comments of this blog say other-wise.
You said,
If this blog isn’t for her, or she finds it upsetting, then she should not visit it, obviously.
There might be other blogs out there that are more to her liking, or that she won’t find as upsetting.
This blog does work for some folks, though. Some do find it helpful.
dee wrote:
She comes across to me as someone with a serious vendetta or personal grudge against you, Deb, and/or with the blog commentators in general.
It’s very weird. She has a huge chip on her shoulder.
She can disagree with me on stuff all day long and have a different opinion, and that’s fine with me. What sets me off with her and sends up red flags is the underlying nasty attitude.
siteseer wrote:
Even more suspect.
I believe psychology is rejected because it focuses so much on man. Many years ago, when a church I was in rejected psychology (they even removed Dr Dobson from the book store), because the pastor read the Pschoheresy book, I challenged the redefining of psychology as heresy. The response was basically that man was dirt and nothing special. Even my quoting John 3:16 was twisted into God loving the whole of his creation so much he sent his son – He was not sent to redeem man, but the earth. And that’s what happens when you have to twist scripture to fit a pet theory.
@ one of the little people:
And that would be the Psychoheresy book – these thumbs were not made for such a wee keyboard.
I want you to truly ponder what this man is saying about children, about children if they had the strength of an 18-year-old would slaughter their father where he stood take that shiny watch of his wrist and walk across his bloody body with no remorse. We are all Jr Hitlers in the making and so on. Now this is the type of preaching I had spewed at me, though it was a bit more subtle. I will give Mr. Washer that he is up front with his loathing for humanity. Its funny they use Hitler, should we talk about the literally billions who stood against him the many acts of bravery and self-sacrifice. Was that not God working in time through people?If you want to understand what drives some of these folks, in my opinion, is that they hate themselves and others with such a deep “god” ordained loathing that it just hardens them.
https://youtu.be/mEOqxibhCxU
siteseer wrote:
I just looked and Psychoheresy: The Psychological Seduction Of Christianity is still in print. From a review on Amazon:
“They outline Four Myths About Psychology: “The first major myth is that psychotherapy… is science rather than religion… The second major myth is that the best kind of counseling utilizes both psychotherapy and the Bible… The third major myth is that people who are experiencing mental-emotional-behavioral problems are mentally ill… The fourth major myth is that psychotherapy has a high record of success. The myth is that professional psychological counseling produces greater results than other forms of help, such as self-help or that provided by family, friends, or pastors.” (Pg. 8-9)”
This book has been influential for at least the past couple of decades plus.
one of the little people wrote:
I agree completely and find it very disturbing.
A lot of Christians are getting things totally backwards. They are wanting to give grace to perpetrators and judgement to victims.
@ brian:
I’m sure this hate and loathing for children comes out of having been abused as children themselves.
dee wrote:
I honestly don’t know why any of you are still wasting electrons on that half-witted sock-puppet. He can’t even work out whether he’s male or female.
This obsession with Tank Frurk’s alter-ego is just the sort of banality you get on the Wartburg Watch. Wartburg? Bah. I’ve got more warts on my *** than you have on your so-called Burg. And I should know, because I’m an abuse victim and I’ve cured people of abuse in my yoga study group.
Up Yours (sincerely),
Roger Bombast
@ one of the little people:
They set up a straw man and then refute it. Anyone who can actually read Van Der Kolk and say it is not scientific research is denying reality.
It’s just another way to keep people imprisoned.
dee wrote:
I agree with all of that.
There just seems to be this deeply ingrained belief by some Christians that Jesus alone (or prayer, Bible reading) will heal a person of anything and everything.
They kind of seem afraid to admit that if Jesus alone (or, again, Bible reading / prayer) cannot deliver a person from this that or the other, it makes the faith bogus or untrue.
For all the years I tried prayer, Bible reading, and faith in God, none of that delivered me from depression or anxiety. I had to use other channels to deal with the depression. I still have issues with anxiety.
What’s even a little stranger to me is that some of these groups who think Jesus Alone is the answer for every issue in life (whether it’s alcoholism, depression, domestic violence, etc) are Reformed or Calvinism. These are the same guys who tend to be ten times harder on WOF (‘Word of Faith’) Christians than other Christians are.
I don’t agree with WOF myself, but I find the underlying assumptions about healing, treatment, etc to be pretty much the same among these Reformed and Calvinist guys as they are among WOFers.
Both groups more or less assume if you have enough faith, rely on prayer and Bible reading, that God can and will heal you of whatever your struggle is.
Neither group seems to be too fond of Christians using secular therapy or medications to treat depression and other maladies.
Roger Bombast wrote:
Dear Mr. Bombast,
Have you seen a doctor for your condition?
one of the little people wrote:
I’m sure they did great formal studies to determine this? I’d love to see them.
dee wrote:
I don’t know if you’d find this fitting as a send-off song or not:
The Power of Good-bye
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbaHVlxO87c
Lea wrote:
I’m sure Dr Fundystan, our resident Proctologist, could show you where these people keep their data.
@ Siteseer:
And don’t we come full circle? If psychology is heretical and from the pit of hell and secular authorities are not to be trusted, where does the victim of abuse in the church go? Oh! That’s right, to the pastor, the “only God approved” source for counseling and help.
one of the little people wrote:
I can believe it.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
LOLOLOLOL
@ Roger Bombast:
You are two funny,
@ Jack:
They are the mouthpiece for John MacArthur’s ministry,
dee wrote:
Exactly.
I have thoughts on that:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MYsongofpraise/status/807429808812675072
https://mobile.twitter.com/MYsongofpraise/status/808015320233496580
2 Timothy 2:24 – TeamPyro and co regularly violate this yet expect Christians to treat them as authorities. Not apologizing for finding that absolutely disgusting. They owe a lot of folk apologies. Warning people who don’t have twitter about them now. They have a pattern of trashing anyone who opposes them. It’s evil.
@ dee:
The version on InternetArchive is working for me, though it was slow. If the I.A. site isn’t working:
You an try this site:
http://www.viewcached.com/
Or try… Google used to have this option where you could view a cached view of a page by clicking on an option or link next to the link in Google that says “cache”
This is from one of their help pages:
About cached links
Google takes a snapshot of each webpage as a backup in case the current page isn’t available. These pages then become part of Google’s cache. If you click on a link that says “Cached,” you’ll see the version of the site that Google stored.
If the website you’re trying to visit is slow or not responding, you can use the cached link instead.
How to get to a cached link
On your computer, do a Google search for the page you want to find.
Click the green down arrow to the right of the site’s URL.
Click Cached.
Once you’re on the cached page, click the current page link to get back to the live page.
siteseer wrote:
Something similar is addressed in a few chapters of this book:
12 “Christian” Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy
https://books.google.com/books?id=R_sy4bBlUeEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=12+Christian+beliefs+that+can+drive+you+crazy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bI7NVObPB9LesAT_qIDgBw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=12%20Christian%20beliefs%20that%20can%20drive%20you%20crazy&f=false
dee wrote:
And what a vile advertisement they make for Grace.
@ dee:
Yes, well, at least I’m not pretending to be someone else just so I can eulogise the smell of my own gaseous emissions, unlike some of your readers. I can well imagine why Missy Moron loved hanging around with you lot. Just the sort of concern troll I’ve come to expect at the Watchburg Wart. Missy M? Bah. Miss Turbatory Self Aggrandisement, more like.
Wartcream to all of you,
Roger Bombast
Daisy wrote:
There might be a much simpler reason, and that’s because it takes their authority away. Keeping people within the herd keeps them under their thumb. If someone gets counseling outside the church, they might come to realize how controlling and rediculous these churches are, and that they have no right to do the things to people that they do.
To be clear, I don’t believe some of these topmost leaders believe what they say, but specifically Morris and Mohler. I think they just use these things to control others. I think there are those under them that believe it, including a lot of the pastors, but I think the lot of them move up particularly because they have a personality disorder that keeps them from thinking clearly, or they are completely aware it’s a sham, and they enjoy the power and money.
Archived post that Frank Turk does not want you to see
He says “I abhor your curiosity”.
What a stinking mongrel. All his theology and systematics is completely wasted. No fruit of the Spirit…..and certainly no wisdom. If he and his ilk had the sense to keep quiet they wouldn’t be attracting so much attention. Learned fool….
Exactly. And there are more than two or three witnesses accusing his elder friend. The church has a responsibility to be informed from information available. Discernment is really lacking at TeamPyro.
Absolutely agreed:
@ Melody:
@ Ron Oommen:
Exactly: the Biblical beef with their “logic” is the refusal to read the full passage of Matthew 18 and the ignorance of Romans 13.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
And goodness. Not doing well with quoting correctly on here. Apologies. @ Melody:
dee wrote:
I suggest you consider this one instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG6n0CakXUs&feature=related
I don’t know about that. I do know their callousness towards adults who were abused as children, and the total lack of concern to protect or even be a healthy role model to children growing up now is wicked and evil. I do not understand it as Christian, nor should any Christian accept it as such. As I’ve said, these men’s God is nothing like the God represented in the full chapter of Matthew 18. How Christians can value their opinions is beyond me. From henceforth I don’t intend to try to reason with abusers like those at TeamPyro, whatever the possible reasons for their abusiveness. They either repent and shut up, or get called out for the damage they’ve done many of God’s precious children. I can testify for a fact men such as these divide families with their vile abusiveness.
Siteseer wrote:
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Too funny!!!
@ Velour:
This is not about child sex abuse, but it is about JMac’s church:
Church Sued Over a Suicide Says It Will Change Training, 1985
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/20/us/church-sued-over-a-suicide-says-it-will-change-training.html
one of the little people wrote:
I often want to shout from roof tops: church is voluntary! You don’t have to put up with it! Take it from those who learned the hard way! Run.
Sadly, it doesn’t work like that. But thinking of the fact that people pay people to be treated like ignorant rubes makes me very sad.
@ one of the little people:
That’s all very sad and a bit ironic.
The most help I got from getting out of years and years of clinical depression was reading books and blogs by psychiatrists and psychologists, many of whom were Non-Christian.
Years of Bible reading, prayer, and so on, did not help me with the depression.
Tom Chantry vented in the comments at the ‘Biblical Christianity’ blog of TeamPyro’s Dan Phillips in 2013 regarding Boy Scouts of America policy changes:
http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2013/05/from-1990-second-hand-values-or-can.html
“I put some thoughts up on my FB today for the sake of people that we are involved in Cub Scouts with (I am a Den Leader.) I thought I’d cut and paste some of it here”
“Everything Boy Scouts claims to stand for – EVERYTHING – is now a fraud. Does this decision do any duty to God? To the country? Does it help other people? Does it keep us physically strong? Mentally awake? Morally *cough* straight? Of course not.”
“My recruitment days are over.”
jerome wrote:
!
Elsewhere, Chantry warned:
https://web.archive.org/web/20151010232517/http://www.religionnews.com/2013/06/03/churches-move-to-cut-ties-to-scouts-after-gay-policy-change/
“The danger from predatory older boys is significant. Not only that, but the current compromise is legally untenable, and BSA knows it. Gay leaders are coming in – at most – two years.”
“The question here isn’t whether we are welcoming to sinners, but whether we put unrepentant sinners in responsible positions in which they can do tremendous harm.”
Lea wrote:
I hope word is getting out to every institution he has been involved in, since they all have to do with children, that he has been arrested. There could be other children out there. I do hope there are not more children.
I think the Wartburg Mob Song should be the Binky Song from Arthur.
To be more accurate, it’s Matalii ja mustii, by Finnish folk band Värttinä. This clip features guest vocals from Dee, Debs and (I’m guessing here) GBTC in clever stage makeup. Or possibly Frank Turk (it’s hard to tell from here).
As an aside, a lot of Metal fans also like Folk. (And Bach, obviously.)
GNFS
This. (Below)
…And yet they will cry Turk is being mobbed and that those who are angry at his public sin -and call it the evil that it is- are the abusers.
Not only does that behavior get old, TeamPyro can’t complain about younger generations refusing to attend their preferred churches.
We have kids. We know that churches they recommend are likely unsafe-because children/abuse surviving adults are not respected or likely to be believed-, regardless of the background checks they do.
This reality is what they, and many others who have minimized abuse, need to grasp.
I am sick of the arrogance and perfectionism Frank and his groupies have about correct doctrine when they show the antithesis of the fruit of the Spirit to the least of these and to anyone who calls them on it.
They are the kind who divide us. Reality is not the problem.
Julie Anne wrote:
Oh man. 🙁
Lea wrote:
Daisy wrote:
At my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (NeoCalvinist/9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite/Complementarian-Patriarchy) they believed this nonsense and that Jay Adams’ Nouthetic Counseling nonsense.
But they didn’t stop there with a few Bible verses. They roped in other church members into months and even years of meetings about problem church members instead of referring problem church members to licensed professionals.
Examples:
*GBFSV pastors/elders failed to get an older woman alcoholic/widow to the care of a physician to supervise her care and all of the problems she caused in the lives of others by being an untreated, active alcoholic. The incompetent pastors/elders ordered church members, including me, into months of meetings in which they drew pictures on a chalkboard about things like gossip. The pastors/elders were completely untrained and incompetent to deal with the real issue: substance abuse. They harmed her, her adult children, and church members by not getting her to proper treatment. And it was a complete waste of my time.
I didn’t cause someone’s addiction, I can control someone’s addiction, and I can’t cure someone’s addiction.
*The pastors/elders failed to get a retired woman, with a troubled childhood, into professional therapy by a licensed professional for her acute anger and her relentless lashing out at others, including members, attenders, and visitors. The pastors/elders required 8 years’ of meetings from me for us to be ‘friends’. I will NEVER be friends with an abuser, man or woman, and the very nature of abuse breaks trust and ‘unity’.
Former church members, including men, said they avoided this woman because of how troubled she was and how ‘immature’ she was. She was hateful to people, including telling visitors not to come to the fellowship meal/potluck lunch any more! Just rude!
*Dyslexia/Memory Problems. The pastors/elders blamed me for the memory problems of a woman church member who has short-term memory problems, working memory problems, and auditory (hearing) memory problems. She failed school because of her severe disability, can’t work because of it, lives with her sister, and receives a monthly disability check from the Social Security Administration. She refuses to get medical care for her severe disability and to be in special support groups for it. When she couldn’t remember entire events and conversations, she simply accused other people including me of “lying”. At this point she belongs in a court-ordered conservatorship with a licensed social worker supervising her care since she refuses to do it on her own.
The Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley pastors/elders were fond of framing every situation as “they tried” and if it didn’t work/their dumb Nouthetic Counseling than the church member was ‘in sin’ such as those harmed by the alcoholic, the abusive woman, and the woman with memory problems.
The senior pastor has a fake Ph.D. from a diploma mill and another fake advanced degree.
His degrees are fakes according to the U.S. Department of Education.
A lot of these NeoCal guys are in over their heads. They are irresponsible, arrogant, and destructive. I have never seen so much damage done to so many lives or wasted so much of my own time.
Daisy wrote:
Thanks, Daisy.
I am counting the days until we hear horror stories out of John MacArthur’s church. I know they’re there. That entire environment enables abuse.
With stuff like this, it’s no wonder Chantry locked down his ‘chantrynotes’ blog:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RlfwBHsGhsgJ:https://chantrynotes.wordpress.com/2014/11/21/the-most-creepiest-time-of-the-year/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Regarding the music video of the Menzel/Buble duet “Baby It’s Cold Outside,” Chantry spills in a comment:
“as I watch this as a man, I have the impression that they are trying to get me to contemplate whether the little girl is, in fact, kissable. Or perhaps they are trying to get a man of another ‘orientation’ to wish that the little boy would say that to him.”
Velour wrote:
MacArthur could end up the new Jack Hyles (even though both men’s theologies are very different).
Dee,
Sent you an email, he said he would be more than happy to help you out if you would like, his words ” I’ll package it with a bow.”
jerome wrote:
Yuck.
jerome wrote:
Jerome! Keep pulling this stuff out. That would be creepy in any context. People just don’t think that way, unless they are already thinking that way.
Eventually it’s going to be like when Buckwheat got shot on SNL and they interviewed someone in his hometown:
Minister: He was a loner, and a quiet young man. He attended church, and Sunday School. I remember he was always very polite.
Ted Koppel: Do you believe he killed Buckwheat?
Minister: Oh, yes. Definitely. That’s all he talked about.
A very good interview with Dr. Anna Salter (Harvard), author of Predators, and an expert about them interviewed on Tier Talk, a program for the corrections/prison industry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRtccELtlJw
@ jerome:
Also this:
Ha. She’s not being foolish, she’s interested.
Ah, and the version he finds so interesting is the one that has been cleaned up with a video of kids sharing a coke! And these are his thoughts:
Melody wrote:
But their Ideology is Pure, Comrade.
Calvin, Calvin, Calvin, Calvin, and Calvin.
dee wrote:
Mouthpiece or Enforcers?
siteseer wrote:
I think it’s an unwanted competitor.
Which actually DOES get better results.
So it must be destroyed.
Elron Hubbard and Dave Miscavage would agree.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There are rumors of horse heads on beds.
@ Nick Bulbeck:jerome wrote:
Good night! I will make sure that his role is known although I bet they already know it.
I worked in a military prison for 3 years as duty warden, I could tell you stories about pedophiles and sex offenders that make what I’ve read here seem tame.
Melody wrote:
Yes, the Calvinist God is distinctly different from the real one revealed in the whole of Scripture.
If a person was punished brutally as a child, they have 2 choices- they can believe that they were bad children who deserved it and their parents are good people who did what was right. Or, they can realize they were just normal children who didn’t deserve that, and their parents were either sick or deluded. The second can be very difficult for people to accept because it can be terrifying. So, some of these people have a lot invested in believing that children are intrinsically evil and deserve harsh punishment.
Melody wrote:
Brother Maynard wrote:
Wow.
I agree with this from past work I’ve done with children and families. But I also believe that permitting these grown ups to delude themselves that their harshness towards children is excusable, especially when they claim to be believers and followers of Christ, is a bad idea. I’m pretty sure having said that, these guys would deny they ever experienced abuse and also don’t see their attitudes or actions as abusive or sinful. So…
@ siteseer:
They don’t have good fruit so I doubt their doctrine is in fact pure.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Roger Bombast wrote:
Didn’t note the author of your comment, only saw the picture of the bald guy so I looked forward to the typical thoughtful comment and was instead greeted by the alter ego. Make sure someone hasn’t sprinkled ore dust in the transporter next time before you beam up. That other guy, Nick, does seem a bit soft at times, so here’s to your re-integration.
Noticed some discussion of TeamPyro and associates’ disdain for psychology…here’s what I find sad: if they had a basic understanding of such things as abuse dynamics, systems, human developmental stages, and basic psychology, they might understand better how to communicate, counsel, and relate. They would do well to learn about narcissism from a Christian perspective by reading or listening to some Diane Langberg, for example. But here’s the thing: she’s a woman. Imo on every front these guys are limited in opportunities for growth and informed contribution, due to the legalistic requirements they place on themselves and others. What’s worse is they think themselves above experts in these areas while not even demonstrating basic fruits of the Spirit.
(Fruit not fruits.)
@ Melody:
jerome wrote:
This reminds me of Paul Williams at Bellevue Baptist a long time staff minister, who encouraged people to share their sexual abuse stories with him so he could pray with them. It was found later he molested his own son.
Brother Maynard wrote:
It certainly wouldn’t surprise me if it turned out that there were a lot of sex offenders in the military. It’s been that way in the past (remember “rum, sodomy, and the lash?”)
dee wrote:
Pierogis!! Yaaaay!!! They’re a Christmas tradition in my house, too. (My mom’s family is of Hungarian extraction, though, not Russian.) We favour the kind made with mashed potato filling, and served with cabbage rolls and ham.
I miss home already… *sniff*
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
That is a very unfair characterization of thr military. Do you have evidence?
Julie Anne wrote:
dee wrote:
Cool, JA! You’re one of the Samurai Pizza Cats! 😀
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXiJYcK4-GU
@ Brother Maynard:
It’s a very good sign that the military puts the offenders behind bars. Bravo!
Ken F wrote:
I have a lot of military on both sides of my family, and none of them are rapists. For whatever that’s worth.
Lydia wrote:
That is grosser than gross. All of it. Not that he just molested kids himself, which is evil and gross, but that he was salivating to listen to people give him details about their own abuse. So gross.
Daisy wrote:
And using the information no doubt to prey on the vulnerable.
dee wrote:
Very distorted and twisted thinking. I posted over at Nate Spark’s blog how Frank Turk’s behavior reveals how clueless he is about the charges against Tom Chantry. Basically, he thinks dishing out libelous, malicious comments toward other people on Twitter can be compared to the same thing being done to Chantry. Somehow in his deceptive argumentation, he thinks that making off the cuff, malicious, untrue statements toward his detractors is the same as an indictment (formal charges) that have been brought against his friend, Tom Chantry. His belligerent, caustic behavior shows that he will go to deplorable lengths to disparage and insult others who disagree with him, in order to cover for and defend his friend who has been charged with *actual* criminal behavior.
siteseer wrote:
Yet, I can well imagine that if preachers not in their Neo-Cal camp had the same kind of indictment issued against them, they wouldn’t be so eager to speak out on their behalf. Just think if Joel Osteen, or T.D. Jakes, or Kenneth Copeland were charged with the same crimes. Would the Neo-Calvinists care so much about their presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
brian wrote:
The Pyromaniacs gained a reputation for berating and bullying anyone who got in their way or disagreed with them. It was the epitome of an Echo Chamber. When Phil Johnson left his team mates, a blogger posted an astute response, assessing the character of the Three Amigos who ran that site. Here is the link: ‘When Bullies Lose a Leader.’
http://thepedestrianchristian.blogspot.com/2012/06/pyromaniacs-when-bullies-lose-leader.html
Ken F wrote:
I was thinking of this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military
JeffB wrote:
Anyone who ever read and/or commented on the Pyro blog back in its heyday knows that sycophants were the only ones who Frank and Dan Phillips preferred to dialogue with. They could not stand people who disagreed with them, even when they did so civilly.
Bill M wrote:
On the other hand, he has great hair.
Best regards,
God
Bridget wrote:
Excellent point. Furthermore, if someone is self-deceived, they aren’t going to be convicted in their heart of wrongdoing.
Daisy wrote:
I spent 21 years in the military, 3 of them working in a prison, until then I didn’t know of any sex offenders. You have to remember that the military is representative of the society at large, not everyone is going to be as innocent as you might think.
To keep this relevant to the topic at hand, everyone was provided with mental health care by board certified mental health professionals. Unless they specifically told anyone what they were in for no one would know. Contrary to what some may think the military does a lot for its members, even if they are incarcerated. Their career is over and they are subject to the same laws as everyone else once freed, such as sex offender registry and it will follow them for the rest of their lives. No retirement benefits, no medical care, nothing. For those that had made it a 20+ year career, prior officer or senior enlisted, I didn’t understand how they could throw away everything for something so stupid.
Another good one from God there.
GMFS everyone, BTW.
Speaking of strange folk who comment under multiple different names: sock-puppetry is an interesting study.
One kind of sock-puppet is the so-called “concern troll”, who joins a thread pretending to support its central thesis but subtly undermines it by expressing “concerns”. TWW attracts this kind of troll, partly because very few people openly dare promote abuse of children or vulnerable adults. So they’ll start off purporting to oppose abuse or, at least, appearing to denigrate the target of the post. They may even try befriending one or two other commenters. But their real reason for being here rapidly becomes obvious.
The first comment made by the troll on this thread ticks all of the boxes, interestingly.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I try to take people as they present themselves to start with. Of course, at a certain point the person they are presenting may not be a great person, whoever they ‘really’ are.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
The US military is reflective of US society. Sexual assault is a problem that the US military is aggressively working on, it’s not a topic that they are trying to deny and cover up: see http://www.sapr.mil/. I encourage you to read the FY15 report posted on the SAPR websitge. I wish more of society would take it as seriously. Even more, I wish churches would take it as seriously.
Brother Maynard wrote:
Churches don’t do the same – there is no excuse for putting offenders back into ministry positions as if nothing happened.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Twenty years ago, I got screwed over by a crooked Homeowner’s Assocation. It taught me that Concern(TM) and Compassion(TM) are the Mark of a Sociopath.