“Childhood should be carefree, playing in the sun; not living a nightmare in the darkness of the soul.” ― Dave Pelzer, A Child Called "It" link
Dee is hoping her internet holds on long enough for her to write a couple of short posts today. I don't think we were ready for the serious consequences of the hurricane in North Carolina. It seems that hurricanes are categorized by wind speed. When it hit the NC coast, it was downgraded to a Category 1 storm. However, that says nothing about the bands of heavy rain and did it ever rain in Raleigh. Our shallow rooted loblolly pine trees can easily topple with too much water. Many people were without electricity but, for a change, our house had power. The flooding was terrible and on Monday, there were widespread outages of Time Warner cable which included me! It looks like we are back in business today!
My husband and I are fans of America's Got Talent. We enjoy the variety which included everything from music to dancing to magic. I remember watching this particular act when they first appeared on AGT. They are called The Willis Clan which is comprised of the 12 children in the family. I enjoyed their performance but I remember thinking that they reminded a bit of the Duggars. They did very well, making it to the quarterfinals but they didn't win. With their decent act, I knew they would make money.
Why they reminded me of the Duggars.
- All of the kids have names that start with *J* just like the Duggar kids.
- They got their own TLC reality show which started in 2015, just like the Duggar.
- They are conservative Christians. According to People Magazine
The Christian family does not believe in premarital sex and none of them drink alcohol. However, in June 2015, the family told PEOPLE about the “open mind” parenting Toby and Brenda show their children.
Shades of the Duggars! The father was just charged with raping an immediate family member who was 12 or younger.
There was recently an arrest of the Willis father, Toby. On 9/14/16, The Daily Beast posted The Willis Clan No More: A Christian Family Band Comes Apart Amid Child Rape Allegations. It is evident from the report that he had allegedly molested a family member who was aged 12 or younger.
The TBI began investigating Willis on Aug. 29 after receiving information that Willis had a sexual encounter about 12 years ago with an underage child, according to a police statement issued after Willis’s arrest. In Tennessee the charge of child rape applies to the sexual assault of children between the ages of 3 and 12.
Nashville’s Newschannel5 reported Wednesday night that Willis had allegedly been charged with raping a family member. It said the family member had been “removed by Willis from her bed and raped.” It also reported that “authorities confirmed Willis was not allowed to go around his biological children or his wife.”
According to Fox 17 Nashville, this happened 12 years ago.
Toby Willis was arrested in Greenville, Ky. and has since been jailed in Cheatham County. He is charged with rape of a child for an alleged relationship 12 years ago.
According to The Daily Beast, the mother is supporting the District Attorney in the investigation and has canceled all family appearances.
We are cancelling all appearances for the foreseeable future to focus on the children and their well-being. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. We have, and will continue, to fully cooperate with law enforcement officials and ask that you direct all inquires regarding Toby Willis’ case to the District Attorney’s office who have our complete support.”
How strange. Just like the Duggars, old charges of molestation came to the surface. The mother did not say whether or not she knew of this situation but how did it get out? It is enough for me to start viewing all large families with very cute kids with concern.
Also from the Daily Beast article,
How long this situation had gone on isn’t clear.
this family is also known for experiencing a van fire that killed some of the aunts and uncles some years ago
You sentence:
“It is evident from the report that he had molested a family member who was aged 12 or younger.”
might better read:
“It is alleged in the report that he had molested a family member who was aged 12 or younger.”
This is so sad. I have watched their show and even though they reminded me a bit of the Duggars, they seemed more down to earth and relatable. I’m glad to hear his wife is cooperating with the authorities, but will pray for all the fall out on her and the kids especially, as well as the victim.
The wife ‘fully supporting’ the district attorney is good, right? 12 years is a long time. Maybe we will get more details as this progresses.
Concerning alleged sexual abuse in the Willis family, this detail suggests the possibility of existing unhealthy boundaries within the family:
“She also indicated how much control her husband exerted over their family—especially his daughters.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/14/the-willis-clan-no-more-a-christian-family-band-comes-apart-amid-child-rape-allegations.html
I hope not. 🙁
It isn’t so much about the size of the family as it is the ideology the family adheres to. I believe where you find patriarchal leanings, which tend toward control issues as Christiane mentioned above, you’ll find this behavior rampant. Even Jim Bob Duggar said they’d heard about similar situations from other (supposedly like minded) families.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opws8bgmuxg
Greenville is less than a 30 minute drive from my house. Chances are, Cheatham Co. law enforcement hauled that creep right past my house when they came and got him!
Last reports on News Channel 5 says Toby Willis’ hearing has been delayed by the defense attorney ………. again.
I will not be the least bit surprised to hear cases like this coming out of my ex-NeoCalvinist church in Silicon Valley, California. They have the same kinds of boundary problems.
And why is it that perps are behind all of this obey-and-submit-teachings anyway?
Sad news. My wife and I attended one of their concerts earlier this year. So much talent in that family … and evidently, so much darkness as well. Hanging a “Christian” label on a man doesn’t make it so. Pray for the children.
“I was shocked and devastated by the revelation of events leading to Toby Willis’ arrest.”
If she’s telling the truth here, Brenda just now found out about the abuse along with everyone else.
From the Daily Beast:
Earlier this summer, the eldest child in the family, Jessica, who is 24, abruptly left the band with many fans asking where she was. Her parents briefly referenced her departure in a Facebook Live video this summer but were otherwise vague.
The morning after Toby Willis’s arrest, Jessica’s boyfriend posted a photo of a lamp outside at sunset on Facebook with the words, “Speak truth boldly.”
Heh. Sounds like an escape.
What a sad story. From the daily beast article, it sounds like one of the kids revealed something happened in her childhood, and since the dad was hitchhiking to try to get away, I hope the mom maybe threw him out and rallied around the kids. But the whole profile was creepy, although maybe it just sounds that way with the accusations? But I don’t think its normal for dads to be obsessed with buy all their teenage girls clothing. I can’t even imagine my dad doing such a thing!
There were some weird things about them having a bunch of money, then their house burning down and moving into a tiny rented place? Wonder if there will be some other sketchy details come out about money being spent on gambling, or p*rn or women by the dad, but it could be just him being really controlling and using money to hold over the kids.
I will say, I know some people homeschool and do just fine, but I am very leery of this for large families. I think its very easy for controlling abusers to be even more awful if they keep their kids away from school.
These kind of stories keep cropping up from groups or churches that espouse “Family Values” rhetoric, or who say they are “godly” and “biblical.”
The ones who speak in glowing terms of 1950s America culture, with its Nuclear Families, where Dad was like Ward Cleaver who held a 9 to 5, and Mom was a SAHM, like June Cleaver and baked cookies all day for her sons.
Considering that “Family Values” type of Christians, who revere parenthood and marriage to a nutty degree, are often caught engaging in a lot of warped behavior, it might be time for some Christians who are conservative to stop casting stones at liberals for supposedly being godless, immoral, etc.
-Does this mean I agree with any and all positions liberals espouse? No, not at all.
I’m still a conservative myself, but I don’t think conservatives or “Bible believing Christians” hold a monopoly on good morals, or are incapable of doing terrible things.
I don’t think professing belief in “Family Values,” or what have you, magically makes a person immune from being a deviant.
It seems like every two months or there abouts, we get news stories about ‘Family Values’ promoters such as Bill Gothard, or whomever, being accused of very immoral behavior.
Another thing I find annoying and distasteful about this sort of thing, is that after a prominent Family Values person gets caught doing something bad, another ‘Family Values’ champion will defend that person,
e.g., M. Huckabee defending the Duggar clan after the son (Josh?) was said to be a child fondler.
It’s almost as though defending the “Family Values, good old fashioned 1950s Christian version of America” means more to these “Family Values” pushers than the victims and doing what is really right
(which would be, holding perps accountable not making excuses for them or watering down their offenses (under the “but we’re all sinners” type commentary), standing with the victims).
Daisy wrote:
I think when they’re trying to hard to convince you of something you should be suspicious. It’s a tell. People with good family lives that work don’t HAVE to run around trying to make everybody else believe it. They aren’t generally obsessed with telling others what to do. They just live their lives.
Daisy wrote:
Have you heard any of the stories about his kids? There used to be a bunch going around. I met one and he was obnoxious, although to be fair he was about 14 at the time.
@ drstevej:
Thank you.I will correct it.
Lea wrote:
Yes. However, I hope she had no preexisting knowledge.
Christiane wrote:
Good catch.
@ Max:
I liked them as well. Can you imagine what was being concealed?
NJ wrote:
I am adopting a wait and see on this one. How would the police find out about it if Brenda didn’t know? Did it happen at the same time?
NJ wrote:
Good point.
@ NJ:
I wonder why she kept it from her mother?
@ Lea:
Good comment.
@ Lea:
I agree with the homeschooling thing and large families. I have seen more balanced kids come out of families that didn’t homeschool, but I don’t want to paint with a broad brush.
As for the Dad in this family, when I watched the TV show, he did seem very high strung. Reminded me of a family in Covenent Life who were such type A Christians that their six-year-old asked for a day planner for his birthday.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I know many a large family, I’m more inclined to be concerned over parents that monetize their family.
A lot of very sick and dysfunctional men use faith as a means to cover the shame of their dysfunctional thinking/behaving or as a tool to correct it. Christianity is very accepting of someone’s ‘testimony’ and see it as a green light to giving someone implicit trust. Let me be clear – accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior changes your eternal destiny, but your character does not change immediately. Whatever abuse, dysfunction, warped thinking that you bring into your Christianity will have to be dealt with. Unfortunately these abusive men probably become disillusioned with the fact that they didn’t experience some overnight transformation, while remaining in their depravity they learn to ‘work the system’ within Christian circles because they CAN. I’m not saying this is the case 100% of the time, but there is a pattern that is emerging. Abusers wear the cloak of religion to have society’s stamp of approval. It buys them a trust they didn’t earn. I’m sure somewhere in the Willis father’s past, there is a story of abuse or an addiction to pornography.
This is usually the case. The child may not tell anyone. If the mother and child are not close; the mother is busy, has a lot of other children etc., it may go unnoticed. This can be a drawback for large families. For some reason if the mother is somewhat detached it can mean a child’s changing behavior will not be picked up on. And with a gigantic family this can happen no matter how much a mother might think she is giving all of her children enough attention. I am not sure it ca n be done no matter what others say.
I come from a large conservative christian family. Our family children names all start with T and yes my father raped and molested my sister and I our whole lives as well as many other men in the church in which I use to belong to. It is an epidemic it is sick. The men are taught they inly have to answer to god!! This has destroyed so many young girls lives and we do not know who to go to or reach out to for help!!
dee wrote:
Unfortunately, that is not unusual, Dee. There are many reasons that it happens. But, I do hope that Mom wasn’t keeping a secret because that makes it even more difficult for the child.
There are creeps and perverts in every walk of,life. Painting all christian families as such is poor judgement and reporting
Bill M wrote:
This an issue no matter what the family size. See for example: Hollywood child stars.
Mary
I didn’t paint all Christian families as creeps and perverts. I belong to a Christian family so that makes no sense.
Anna wrote:
“Abusers wear the cloak of religion” = wolves in sheep’s clothing
Unfortunately, we continue to see the “trust” factor play out from pulpit to pew in report after report on TWW and other watchblogs.
Tamara
If you would like to tell your story on our blog, please email me at dee@thewartburgwatch.com. I am so sorry for your pain.
Mary wrote:
I certainly agree with dee that this isn’t fair.
I think ‘large ‘christian’ families that have shows on TLC’ seem to be a pretty bad bet, though.
Bridget wrote:
Me, too. You said it better than me.
@ Tamara Buchanan:
I am so sorry. 🙁 When Josh Duggar’s crimes first surfaced, many women shared similar stories on blog posts, blog comments, and Facebook. These stories need to be told.
Tamara Buchanan
I am so sorry. Thank you for sharing. I wanted to touch on this comment:
I’m wondering what this ‘family names must start with this letter’ connection is. Is it just a function of control? Large families can be a way of controlling the family/wife? So can homeschooling.
I came from a “church” where children were molested. In one case, a young girl kept trying to tell her mother that her father was molesting her. The mother wrote the girl off as a liar. This “church” teaches that people should never take a child’s word over an adult’s word. (I’m not suggesting that this is the case with the Willis family.) Children in patriarchal families have no voice. And wives are taught to submit to their “head.”
Lea wrote:
In many states, home schooling law is deliberately lax to let parents minimize the influence of outsiders. In a rational family, fine. But there are horrific cases of “Christian” families, as well as garden-variety criminals and addicts, who simply pretend to be home schoolers. Some coldly set out to abuse their children, and others end up abusing or neglecting them. That birth certificate turns out to be useful in an age when adults need an ID card to drive, get a job, board a plane, or vote. That pediatrician can come in handy too.
Friend wrote:
There was a girl on twitter the other day that said her church (church homeschool?) didn’t bother to teach math beyond 6th grade in most cases! There were some really sad stories of people who just hadn’t been taught properly. I don’t know if the parents were neglectful or lazy or incapable? But whatever it was, this emphasis on homeschooling as necessary or biblical was disastrous to these poor students.
I don’t want to be too anti-homeschool as I think there are certainly cases where it works, where kids have disabilities that need special care, or special interest or where parents are intelligent and engaged and able to teach their kids specifics beyond what a regular school might teach. But as a general rule I don’t think it should be pushed. Not all parents are good teachers. Most kids are probably going to get a better education at a school.
Mary wrote:
Huh?
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Just as members of patriarchal churches have no voice! Patriarchies generally offer more liabilities than assets. The Body of Christ was never intended to operate as a patriarchy, other than Christ being the head and ALL members as priests.
Nancy2 wrote:
Shh! We’re not allowed to point out any problems! Everything’s perfect, ya hear?
@ Tamara Buchanan:
I am so sorry, Tamara.
I was never abused, so I can’t say that I understand what you went/are going through.
I used to be a teacher. At one school, in the same school year, I had two 7th grade students who were abused. A mother allowed her boyfriend to pimp out her daughter. A boy was abused repeatedly by his older step-brother, and the parents protected the older brother. I saw what that did to those kids. ………..
That was years ago, and I still wonder whatever became of them.
Lea wrote:
This was the case in my “church.” Hubby’s parents were told by their minister that he needed no more math past Saxon 76, which is approximately 6th grade. Anything past that was “as needed.” They actually spell this out in their book on home education. Very few had any high school math at all.
We homeschool, and my oldest is learning algebra and biology this year. We actually tried to enroll the kids in a charter school this year. When we told them we have been homeschooling they simple stopped returning our calls. I was not impressed.
Lea wrote:
Former math teacher here, grades 7-12. I can understand why they didn’t teach math beyond 6th grade. 7th grade math starts getting into the Cartesian coordinate system (plotting points, finding x-and y- intercepts, quadrants, functions, solving equations, etc); geometry (bisecting angles, finding the area of various geometric shapes, etc): solving equations involving simple algebraic fractions; actually using the Pythagorean theorem, distance formula and so on. 8th and 9th grade math gets really messy if the teacher doesn’t know his/her stuff!
For most people who haven’t studied mathematics specifically – just taken the required core credit hours in college, or only has a high school education, it is almost impossible to teach it at that level properly without outside help.
Nancy2 wrote:
This conveniently protects the parent’s ego. It reminds me of old movies where Pappy yells, “I didn’t need no book learnin’ and neither do you!”
Nancy2 wrote:
Which is where an online curriculum comes in handy. If we continue to homeschool my oldest through high school s/he will learn algebra I & Ii, geometry, pre-calculus, and trigonometry.
That said, we’ve never known a Quiverfull, patriarchal family who provided an adequate education for all of their children. Then again, the ones we knew had limited access to the Internet, so what we’re doing is not available to them.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I see this as negligent. You are so limiting kids when you deprive them of this education!
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I hate to be too anti-homeschool, because I think it can be done right. It just takes a lot more effort by the parents. (I can see it being much more difficult with a large family and at higher grade levels).
Friend wrote:
Yup. That’s why my Pappy and my brother call me when it’s time to figure out how much wormer medication to give each of their cows! I finally made a chart for them.
Lea wrote:
I don’t want to come across as people’s concerns not being valid. They absolutely are valid. From what I’ve read, those who homeschool for religious reasons, i.e. to avoid the “secular” indoctrination of “government” schools, usually do a poorer job at teaching academics. Those who homeschool because of an under performing ISD (we fall in this category) or because of bullying issues at school, usually do quite well academically. It appears that the reasons for homeschooling have a lot to do with the results.
Lea wrote:
I hate to be anti homeschool, too …… but, but, but……
Even with just two or three children and a well educated parent, it would be a challenge to teach 4 or 6 school subjects at two or three different grade levels consistently and properly every day.
I cannot imagine just teaching only math every day to 9, 10, 11 …… children. How does one do that, and do it well?
I know 2 families who homeschooled their kids.
Case 1). Preacher’s wife and 4 children – homeschooled only through 4th grade. The wife has a college degree in Eng. Lit. She said she would be short changing her children if she continued to homeschool beyond 4th grade level.
Case 2). Preacher’s wife with a high school education and 3 children. She homeschooled the younger 2 all the way through high school. The homeschool boys had to take the state mandated test for a high school diploma twice – they both failed the first time, and they had a lot of difficulty finding jobs. One of them got a job as a nurses aide. He had to study for several weeks just to pass the required test, and he had a booger of a time doing it!
I’m not judging in either case. I know the parents had the best interests of their children at heart. But, how many of us could homeschool our children well enough to prepare them for life in the world now? I don’t think I could.
@ Nancy2:
So many Christian Homeschool kids are qualified for only one of two careers:
If male: Fundamentalist Preacher or Political Activist.
If female: Quiverfull cook/cleaner/breeding stock.
Looks like TLC is Zero-for-Two.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Yes, I can see that. I think it makes sense that parents who are motivated to get a better education (whether because of special needs, poor school system, etc) for their children are more likely to do a better job of that! And to recognize their limitations and seek out other avenues whether that be traditional schools, online programs, tutors (my aunt tutors some homeschool kids in math I believe).
IF your goal is NOT education, but something else, then you are going to have more problems.
I don’t have children so I don’t have a stake in the homeschool issue. I do have concerns about the “Christian” homeschooling movement, though.
1. How many homeschool to avoid exposing their children to ideas such as evolution?
2. How many who homeschool intend for their children to go to college? How many intend for them not to go to college? (I don’t believe college is for everybody, and probably too many people are going there now, but in my opinion it does children an almost criminal disservice to deny them the option.)
Daisy wrote:
“Bla bla bla Duggars… bla bla bla they’re CHRISTIAN… bla bla bla Guess it’s okay to bang your sisters as long as you’re not GAY…”
— overheard in the 480 bus during Duggargate
I am just old enough to remember the tail end of the REAL 1950s America culture, and its highly-mythologized version completely ignores the REAL strength of that time: the “Can Do” optimism of a generation that made it through the Great Depression and World War Two and came out of it stronger and more prosperous than before.
Robert wrote:
Yes. That and the birds & the bees education. Our curriculum admins pointed it out to us in case we wanted to exclude that. Apparently some parents do. We didn’t exclude it. My two oldest got their birds & bees education.
Max wrote:
Absolutely. When I left the SBC to join a patriarchal cult, the SBC wasn’t like it is today. I have commented before that the SBC of today more closely resembles the patriarchal cult I left.
Bill M wrote:
I agree.
dee wrote:
I never told my parents about the time my grandfather molested me or about my brother molesting me. Some secrets seem to awful to share.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
what will now become of Josh Duggar since he got booted out of the political circuit?
maybe he will actually have to go out and get a real job to support all those little ones AND his wife who likely has no education to speak of that can help her find work
Bill M wrote:
Exactly. The family as corporation.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I took a peek at a family life education workbook issued by our school district. It taught middle school kids that they should not just drink whatever was handed to them. It also taught ways to identify potentially dangerous social situations, and tactful approaches for getting away.
Somebody might conclude that the school was indoctrinating children to live in a godless hellhole, but I was impressed that kids were learning to think clearly and protect themselves. And sure, parents should teach these things, but not every parent anticipates every scenario. As we realize.
Some of our public school kids might be able to flush out predatory pastors.
Lea wrote:
Yes, I homeschooled my children because there were some serious issues going on in our local school. I couldn’t afford private school or I’d have loved to go the Montessori route. I also wanted to avoid bullying and lockstep thinking. In public school, there tends to be a small group of students who do well but there are also a whole lot of kids that fall by the wayside. I loved homeschooling, my kids did well and retained a love of learning (which I always felt was the most important part of teaching- if you know how to learn and you love to learn, you will find success and enjoyment throughout life) and all went on to college and have excellent jobs now, including my daughter.
Absolutely agree with this. When I was home schooling, I was unaware of the really conservative Gothard-type ethos, which I think is awful. All of the homeschoolers I’ve known have been people who truly love their children and want the best for them. If people are homeschooling just to avoid certain subjects or to indoctrinate their children, I don’t think it works out well. But then, I think that in debates about home schooling we tend to forget how many children do poorly in public school, how many in public schools are dealing with abusive and extremely troubled homes and public schooling is not saving them, and how many come out of our school system completely unprepared for life. So I guess I’d say, both are a mixed bag, they each have their problems and their excellences.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I am so very sorry that happened to you.
@ Nancy2:
Check this out to be a start in understanding how they do it. Much of it is online and a lot of it is in co-ops.
http://www.nche.com/regions/3
Also, a few years back I checked out our state laws regarding homeschooling and several things were surprising. I have not checked in past couple of years. A home school could be two families, not just one. A certain number of hours per week were required to have parent involvement but also a certain number of hours per week could be group instruction with a hired teacher.
ResidentEducator is involved with American Heritage Girls and through them she has met some homeschool parents. The info is that in our area there are several co-ops and right many families doing this, and if I understand it there is something about required standardized testing. So, ‘home’ is not required to be actually in the home/house but might better be called parent directed or some such. At least the way some do it a better term would be alternative educational process I think, but mama and the dining room table is not what we are talking about the way some do it.
@ Elizabeth Lee:
Your story is heart-breaking. May Christ surround you with His peace and His healing.
Anna wrote:
Or, the abusers simply seek Christianity as a cover, have no intention of changing and think the whole thing’s a crock, but that it’s a useful crock because it provides them ready access to young, naive victims and adults who believe thinking the best of anyone and everyone under any and all circumstances is a virtue. The Bible does not tell us to trust in people, it tells us to trust in the Lord, in Jesus, we’re to hold one another accountable, and that most decidedly does not imply blind trust or even open-eyed trust.
The problem is people have made up a religion of their own that suits them (and certainly suits abusers, molesters, sociopaths, NPDs) and it bears the title “Christianity”, but has very little to do with Christ.
@ okrapod:
The only co-ops in our area are “Christian” co-ops (I believe the only co-ops in the state of Kentucky are Christian co-ops). This is the link to the only co-op in my area: https://www.homeschool-life.com/942/index_public
To be part of the co-op, parents must sign a contract that cites Matt. 18:15-17 ……. in case there is a disagreement, a,child is injured on a field trip, yada, yada.
Bridget wrote:
So true, there are many reasons. Even if the mother is not complicit, has no idea, the child can be manipulated but such statements as:
“This is our little secret.”
“Don’t tell your mother. It will kill her.”
“It’s your fault that this is happening.” (with the alternate version “You are equally guilty.”)
Along with the sure knowledge the child has, that if they tell, the family will be blown apart, and they could have prevented that devastation by just keeping silent and taking the brunt of the abuse on themselves. In other words, in some twisted way, they are “protecting” the others in the family.
siteseer wrote:
Similar here, though we don’t yet have the experience of seeing children make it in careers (our oldest two are currently in college, though). Biggest issue we had was the lock step thinking and the busy work in most public schools, you give the average public school student a little twist to a problem, ask them a question in a manner that requires they demonstrate genuine understanding rather than rote memorization, most fold like cheap lawn chairs–and I know of whence I speak, been teaching the products of the public schools for well over a decade now in higher ed, many of them have been intellectually damaged by public schools and might have been better served being raised by wolves).
siteseer wrote:
We’ve known some who were spot on, but we’ve known others who’d have better served their children by leaving them on a stranger’s doorstep. Have met some truly disturbed homeschooling families following the whole Gothard/Baucham/SGM/Vision Forum/Pearl paradigm, and those families seem to churn out either children who run as far and fast and rebelliously as they can once they can get free of the mess, or they become mind-numbed, stay-at-home, basement-dweller types who couldn’t hold a job.
Nancy2 wrote:
In our area, it is possible to do home schooling without huge emphasis on Christianity. A friend of mine with a scientific background home-schooled her children through to admission to excellent colleges. They belonged to several groups for instruction, as well as scout troops, etc.
Their home is full of weird animals and weird plants: living things that would appeal to kids and educators but not to the photo editor of Woman’s Day.
Law Prof wrote:
I can see the want ads now:
Seeking energetic self-starter, preferably raised by wolves, or cheap lawn chair with intellectual damage.
Friend wrote:
sounds like a good arrangement for this family …. having a mom who is educated herself and comprehends what it takes to go to university and survive …. that mom will KNOW what her children need in the way of background prep
co-ops sound like a really beneficial arrangement but only if the moms bring in specialists in subject areas OR have expertise on their own in certain fields that can translate into the home/classroom
and also, arranging for social interaction outside of the home-school environment is necessary for a well-rounded education (that ‘isolation’ thing some home-schoolers are put through is a kind of cultic reaction to fear-mongering about the ‘outside’ world)
Nancy2 wrote:
It’s not impossible, but it’s a heck of a hard job, my wife and I pass the ball back and forth, though she does most of the work there. Kids are naturally inquisitive and Jesus, Creator of the universe, made them to want to learn, so long as you give them a little direction, you’d be amazed what they pick up, what a kid can do (e.g., building wild animal traps, doing the engineering, the levers and pulleys and etc. on their own, then actually catching a wild animal!). My major issue with public schools is they’re an extremely artificial environment, a mind-stifling one, the socialization is artificial, contrived, absurd (I’d like to ask parent of public school children “But what about socialization? What are you doing with socialization? Is there ever going to be a time in their lives where they’re just around others of their exact same age, only being allowed to learn in 50 minute chunks, interrupted by annoying buzzers and then they get shuttled to a different room? What the heck kind of rubbish way to learn is that?”)
We currently have two in college, one started at 16 and is a senior in accounting with a 3.9+ GPA at State U, the other just started at 17 and is a freshman in biology, no grades yet, but she’s currently pulling As across the board. And frankly, what I’ve seen over the last 13 – 14 years coming out of public schools is generally abominable, and that’s a sample of well over 10,000 public schooled students.
Not to make light of this reprehensible story, but am I the only one rolling aroung laughing because in Tennessee courtrooms the white trash mullet is worn by the judge?!?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ricRXqx1Hng
And is “authorities confirmed Willis was not allowed to go around his biological children or his wife” the way southern journalists describe a restraining order?
I’m coming late to this thread (we’re just finishing a few days in Whitby, a favourite haunt of ours and one of those delightful English coastal towns in which nothing is at right-angles to anything else). So I may be repeating stuff that others have already said in fewer words.
But it seems that home-schooling works best when done by parents who have a positive reason for doing it, a sober grasp of how hard it is, and a plan for doing it well (with the ability to carry it out). Those who, like Mr and Mrs Law Prof, share the significant burden between them. And it is not likely to be done well when dumped (for ideological reasons) onto an under-trained and under-supported wife who counts as little more than an infant herself in the flat-earthist religious straitjacket the family is trapped in.
P.S.
Strictly speaking, it’s “the Clan Willis”, rather than “the Willis clan”. Ah cannae comment on them as ah ken hee-haw aboot they.
#TheyMayTakeWurFitbaButTheyllNeverTakeWurFreedooooooooooooommmmmmm
refugee wrote:
Exactly! I don’t think people realize how strong the urge is to a child to not ruin the family.
Christiane wrote:
A lot of homeschoolers do this and have for decades. There is only a section of homeschoolers who are keeping kids segregated and not well educated. It is not pervasive.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
“A rolling English drunk laid out the rolling English road…”
— G.K.Chesterton
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Where I live (California’s Silicon Valley) homeschooling parents at my former church were part of a public school district. An assigned teaching supervisor came by ever few weeks to discuss the children’s homework, see reading and math assignments, and other homework.
While there may have been ideological differences, the teaching supervisor was very professional and kept everything on track, including discussing resources. I observed her take copious notes on her lap top.
Resources were discussed and made available, including books, computers, and even swim lessons at a local pool as part of physical education.
Law Prof wrote:
We rented an oceanside apartment to a family of seven that had been living on a sailabot, sailed around the world, and all of the children were homeschooled. All of the children were thoughtful, brilliant and each was admitted to Harvard University on full scholarships.
Velour wrote:
This made me smile. We have so many home-schooled little ones who swim in the therapy pool at the Y (the pool is heated), that they had to schedule an hour and a half just for seniors and for therapy patients). I never minded the children being there, though, I must say. And yes, under a certain age, their moms had to be in the water with them for safety reasons.
Law Prof wrote:
As a teacher, I stayed in trouble in public schools. Principals and BoE people don’t like it when a math teacher has all of the student desks pushed against the walls and the students crawling around the floor doing an in-class math assignment. I loved working at the private school – much more freedom/flexibility and smaller classes!
My daughter (public school) got sent to the principal’s office in 8th grade when she had a temper tantrum in math class (a very math oriented, on task, classy temper tantrum, I might add.) They were doing polynomials and the teacher announced that they were going to skip the section on Pascal’s triangle. (This so-called math teacher was too busy with cheerleading and school clubs to really teach. Made me mad!). My daughter already knew PT, so she wasn’t happy. The principal sided with my daughter and told the teacher to cover the section! Tee hee!
Fire, tornado, and bomb drills drove me nuts in the public schools. Bomb evacuation drills would eat up a class and a half of school time (too close to Ft. Campbell!)
One more problem with schools – an over abundance of disruptive, misbehaving students.
I can understand why caring parents who have the resources to do it homeschool.
Nancy2 wrote:
I mentioned this to a couple of cow friends this afternoon. They were so touched that they stopped eating and wrote you a poem:
Moo moo moo,
We cows are safe with you,
Nancy2,
Moo! Moo!
Nancy2 wrote:
Drills?? We didn’t need drills, we just had plain old bomb threats 🙂
I went to elementary in a private school and high school in public, so I saw both. There were things that could be stifling aobut private school, and freedom in public. But public had its errors too. I don’t think there is a perfect system, really. I know that I felt confined in private school in a way I did not in public.
Law Prof wrote:
Like the two ways a preacher’s kid can crack up: Total Rebellion or Twice the True Believer; Marilyn Manson or Fred Phelps, nothing in-between.
Refugee, you just said what I was thinking. There are a number of things that a child victim could be told to keep her silent.
refugee wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
You sound like a wonderful teacher, NANCY TWO.
I taught in the inner city environment, and yes, the behaviors were horrendous at times, but not always. In those in-between times, when teaching took place, it was magical. I remembered one time in writing class, asking the children to take a yellow marker and high-light their ‘golden line’ in the paragraph they had just written. Then we shared their choices. At the end of that year, one of my girls said to her neighbor loud enough for me to hear ‘Mrs. Smith is helping me see things differently.’
I can honestly say I could never do enough for those children. And I have wondered if people in the ‘better’ schools have any idea that those ‘behavior problem’ kids in the inner cities could give back more than they received in so many ways.
Good memories, yes. I miss those days. 🙂
Velour wrote:
Wow, awesome family there.
Nancy2 wrote:
You sound like my kind of teacher, a lot like the character played by Robin Williams in Dead Poet’s Society, who I read was based on a real teacher, Samuel Pickering, who’d teach standing on his desk, under his desk, what have you, unconventional all the way (he’s now a prof at UConn).
@ Daisy:
Aren’t we all such wonderful people that we can be judge and jury for all those terrible Christians who make terrible mistakes. Thank goodness my salvation doesn’t depend on humans.
Christiane wrote:
One of my students, the 7th grade boy who was a used by his step-brother, always wanted to come to my room. He stayed in trouble – big trouble. He spend almost half of 6th grade at the alternative school. The first time I gave him an office referral, he did his usual, stood up, waving his arms, shouting, “you wrote me up because you hate me. You’re out to get me, just like all of the other teachers…….” That was in home room, so we had a little time to talk about rules, and why I wrote him up and would have written up any student under the same circumstances. He understood and never gave me any more trouble.
He would get out of control, violent even. When he got in trouble with the other teacher’s on our quad, they would send him to my room to give him time and space to calm down before sending him to the office. He would sit in a corner, and I could continue teaching, uninterrupted. All of other students (126 of them, in total) knew him well and were very understanding with him.
I had him in class during the lunchtime 4th period. The school did free ice cream Fridays for the best behaved class per shift each week: 3 lunch shifts, 8 classes at each shift. My class got the free ice cream more than half of the time.
That student got sent to the office by the art teacher on the very last day of school. He told the assistant principal that if Mrs. “Nancy2” was his mom, he would never get in trouble. That day, I knew I was doing the job I was supposed to be doing.
So many of the kids at that school. …….. if I could have afforded it, I would have taken them home with me.
Nancy2 wrote:
tears . . . . beautiful . . . thanks for sharing that with me
Patricia
I don’t know about you think, but I think molestation is not a mistake. It is a pre thought out sin and CRIME that can destroy the life of a child forever.
Yes, we can make a judgement on the CRTIME of molestation. In fact, we darn well better do so in order to protect our children. Even Jesus said that if any one harmed one of these little ones, it would be better if they threw themselves in the abyss.
I do not know if you are aware but those who molest children most likely will do so again. It is a difficult perversion and sin to overcome.
Yep- your salvation does not depend upon humans. But God left the care of his little ones in the hands of our justice situation and we Christians better start wising up to the seriousness of this crime. So, perhaps you understand this better than you appear to do so but it sure sounds like you are saying that pedophilia is just another on of those little mistakes we all can get caught up in.
One thing I know about Daisy-she is not out there molesting little kids and I certainly hope you are not doing so as well. But, using your logic, gluttony,swearing, pedophilia, murder, making an error in your calculations in your checkbook -they are all just *mistakes* right? Kind of a big whoopsy, right?
@ Nancy2:
I teach students with visual impairments in a public school system, and I get so irritated at how paper-bound most classes are – even for the students with multiple disabilities who are cognitively delayed. It is so important for my students to have access to hands-on activities, even if they aren’t totally blind. But it’s important for all other students as well.
@ Tamara Buchanan:
I am so sorry you went through all that pain in a church.
I would have done so better with schooling if online schools had been available in the 70’s. I got good grades in school. But most of my school time was wasted. I would get an assignment done quickly, then have to sit and either read a book or just twiddle my thumbs. I would have been better off being allowed to go on to the next step. Back in the 60’s we had something called SRA. Some of you might remember it. I went thru the whole thing in no time flat. My parents couldn’t have home schooled me. They worked to keep our family afloat. My dad had 2 jobs. They were just normal, non college educated people. If you can honestly do home schooling the right way, then great. But I have seen to much of it done the wrong way.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
refugee wrote:
Because of what is happening with Trump, my daughter and I were only an hour ago talking about how she felt, being a survivor of child sexual abuse by a close family friend and why she didn’t tell me for months. It had nothing to do with closeness or my being too busy and unaware. She was afraid to tell. Her mind had lied to her and given her many reasons to keep her mouth shut. We just talked about how all the things she’d thought turned out to be untrue. She was believed, supported, and protected by me and our family. The perpetrator was found guilty and is a registered sex offender. We have lost long time close friends and our church, but that was a small price to pay for my girl to know that she is precious, believed, and loved. She was a child and not mature enough to know that she would be believed by the people who mattered. The rest, who didn’t believe her – the “godly” church people who blab on about Justice, family, the widow and orphan – are so much flatulence. that is some of the reasons a much loved child keeps silent.
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
By this logic, Christians should not report an armed robbery and hostage taking in progress.
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
She didn’t judge or convict anyone. She is stating how she feels about some things.
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
Nor does mine.
Why don’t you direct your smugness and condescension at Paul, who blasted Appollos and Peter and the superapostles and the foolish crowd in Corinth who put up with their abuse?
Why don’t you scold James, who hammered away at we-do-as-we-please-we’re-covered-in-grace, so-called Christians, telling them to put up or shut up, more or less?
Why don’t you rip into Peter, who went after false prophets in his second letter with both fists?
In fact, why don’t you just jettison the whole Bible if evil can’t be criticized. Certainly would have to throw out Jesus, who suggested watery graves for those who mislead little ones–but given your attitude, one has to wonder what you have thrown out if you think it’s a godly thing to criticize those who point to the destructive evils of child molestation–why who do we think we are?
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
I always find this line of thought so strange. I mean, I would never call myself a perfect christian, but I am completely comfortable saying that I have never raped or molested a child. Yes, I can judge that! Jesus judged that!! He said better a millstone around your neck. That’s a judgement.
It’s such a bizarre way to think. “Who are you to consider yourself better than a child molester.” Really? That’s the argument you’re going with?
And to add to what I wrote, the young adult man who molested my daughter was homeschooled his entire life as well
as a graduate of the Pearls’ “Growing Kids God’s Way”. His brother, who was recently accused by a church member of molesting her five year old daughter in Children’s Church, where he was alone with the kids (smh), was also raised under the same systems. That family is two for two. It seems to me homeschooling can work very well for some and for others, can make them really weird.
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
Yes, Patricia Chandler, I will judge the actions of child molesters. The same nonsense was thrown in my face by “godly” men, leaders in the Body of Christ, because I dared to report the molestation of my child by the young adult son of well respected and loved church members. I was treated with more grace and compassion by secular “ungodly” detectives and prosecutors. Thank goodness I know Jesus and His Word and recognized the lies and abuse of the bible that was thrown at me. You are wrong. Period.
Law Prof wrote:
Indeed! When homeschooling works, it really works well.
When I took Latin in college, some of the best students in my college class were homeschoolers who were taking Latin as part of their homeschooling curriculum. They were all very thoughtful, kind, studious young men and women.
@ Barney:
You ain’t never been to Tennessee, or Southern Kentucky for that matter either, have ye Barney?
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
Ah, yet you can judge Daisy?
Lea wrote:
+100
Signed,
The Woman Excommunicated & Shunned from her NeoCalvinist Church
for Opposing Pastors/Elders Giving Their Megan’s List Sex Offender Friend/
Child Pornographer Access To Children Because He Said A Few Words
About Jesus And Like Pixie Dust Is “All Cured”
Anna wrote:
Right. Like those Ex-pastors on expastors.com – the “place of help, healing and hope” for pastors in recovery from the “victimization” of having been caught as predators or exploiters.
Is there an exvictims.com for those exploited by the expastors? How about help, healing, and hope for the exvictims?
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
Did you mean me, that I was passing judgement on all Christians?
Or, were you agreeing with the gist of my post that “Family Values” type of Christians often sit in judgment of others but are later to revealed to be scuzz-buckets themselves (they don’t live the virtus they preach to liberals and everyone else)?
(Sorry, I’m not following.)
dee wrote:
Holy mother of Guacamole, heck no, I don’t molest kids, nor would I ever.
But goodness knows most Christians automatically assume I must be doing so because I am a life-long celibate (which means I don’t do anything sexual with other people), and some Christians automatically assume celibacy causes a person to fondle children… even though the Bible asks single adults like me to be celibate.
Anyway, I was not even really following what ‘PATRICIA Chandler’ was getting at in her post to me. Maybe in part because it’s getting sort of late where I am, and I’m a tad sleepy.
@ PATRICIA Chandler:
I went back and looked at the post of mine you are referring to. I find it weird you’re apparently taking some kind of offense with it.
I specified certain types of Christians in that post. I did not say “all” of them.
I specified the “Bible banger,” hyper- conservative types, the ones who heavily promote “Family Values” rhetoric.
I’m conservative myself and dig conservative values, but as I’ve grown older, I can no longer stomach how many other conservative Christians promote their beliefs, the manner in which they do so-
Or that they sit around pointing at the sins of secular culture, when they are not often living up to the very “godly” lifestyle they promote constantly to that secular culture.
I also think the extreme focus on “the nuclear family” such Christians promote is false.
“Family Values” Christians have, IMO, made the family into an idol, the consequence of which is to inadvertently exclude any adult who is not married with kids.
Lea wrote:
Is that what she was saying? Her post didn’t make much sense to me first time I read it.
I was basically pointing out that a lot of Family Values Christians sure as heck aren’t bothering to live up to the Family Values they espouse, so maybe they should stop so arrogantly sitting in judgment of secular culture as often as they do.
Jesus had that thing about the speck in your brother’s eye vs the plank in yours.
Nancy2 wrote:
Patricia’s type of argument always eats itself whole. It’s certainly not a well-thought position and certainly not indicative that the holder thereof has a well-functioning sense of reason, values or ethics.
@ Daisy:
Patricia may just be one of those True Believers, the types who will vigorously deny any wrongdoing and condemn straight to perdition anyone who questions their favorite celebrity idol or ideology, then upon discovering that their favorite idol is guilty as charged or that their ideology is bankrupt, they just shift positions a little and start attacking the critics with charges of “Well you’re not perfect, either, you sinful sinner!” There’s really no reasoning with such as that, not even sure the debate is worth three key strikes.
Patricia may be the type, but I doubt it matters, she appears to be the typical hit-n-run cultist.
@ Daisy:
Maybe I just assumed that because it’s the topic of the post and we have heard it before. Too many times.
Or maybe she’ll pop back in and make herself clearer.
@ Velour:
Latin provides the base for many words in English, so its study gives a lot of strength academically to those who must take entrance exams that require knowledge of terms . . . it is possible to sort out the meaning of an unknown word IF you can see that it has a Latin root that is familiar to you.
This works backwards, also. You can take a Latin phrase and sort out its meaning from what you know of English. 🙂
Example: ‘non compos mentis’
non represents the negative, compos (think ‘composed’ or ‘ordered’), ‘mentis’ (think ‘mental’);
so you can sort out ‘not of sound mind’ without any formal study of Latin
The study of Latin is great prep for university: scientific terms, medical terms, etc. many from Latin roots
Lea wrote:
Gosh, I hope not. I think ‘she’ (if it IS a ‘she’) made herself extremely clear. Her words will not find defenders here where there are so many who have suffered from the ‘mistakes’ of ‘terrible Christians’ ….. at best I can only see perpetrators of abuse as previous victims themselves who have become extremely mentally and emotionally ill as a result of their own abuse and are ‘acting out’ by hurting innocents, a phenomenon called ‘repeating the cycle of abuse’;
but even that is not an EXCUSE, and it may not even be a REASON. Evil does exist in this world, yes. Given enough ‘pride’ and ‘hubris’ and ‘my needs come first’ attitude, people open a door to satan’s wiles and it is much easier to ‘objectify’ an innocent person as an object to be used to gratify one’s sexual needs without thought of them as a ‘person’. THAT is one reason extreme neo-Cal male-headship thinking sets men up for falling into patterns of belittling women ….. from their failure to see women and children as real human persons to be treated with all respect and dignity because they are made in the image of God.
What a disconnect:
On the one hand, these families heap on the purity talk, hold purity balls, ban dating, prohibit holding hands and kissing before marriage, and go so far as to guilt girls for having a crush on a boy (teaching that this cheats their husband of a part of their heart).
Then we find out that daddy is raping his daughters.
How in the world does daddy justify sexually abusing daughters while teaching them that she is ruined for having a mere crush?
Evil vileness of the grossest magnitude.
Daisy wrote:
That’s a new development; when I was in high school circa 1970, “not doing anything sexual with other people” meant you were a FAG(TM). If you weren’t banging girls (or faking it) you had to be homosexual.
JYJames wrote:
They don’t count.
In the Heresy of Clericalism, ONLY the Clergy matter before God. All the rest of us can go to Hell.
One of the little people wrote:
I cried reading your daughter’s story. May the Lord bless your family.
Just a quick clarification. I think the author of “Growing Kids God’s Way” is the Ezzos. The Pearls are known for their “Train Up a Child” books.
Both equally poisonous, IMO, though they were very popular with families at our former church. Interestingly enough, the Ezzos were a controversial subject among homeschoolers. (I recall the topic being banned on various online discussion boards.) I don’t remember the topic of the Pearls’ teachings being banned, though I could be wrong.
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
A mistake? A MISTAKE? You call a vicious, selfish act that will haunt a child for the rest of his or her life (I recently read the testimony of a grandmother in her 80s who was still emotionally shattered from being molested as a child) a MISTAKE?
I am outraged.
I want to throw things and call PATRICIA Chandler rude names. I will restrain myself, with difficulty.
I am in good company, too, the best of company, in fact. What exactly was it Jesus said about millstones and being cast into the Sea for causing little ones to stumble?
Whether or not He saves these “terrible Christians” who have done truly horrible things, He doesn’t let them off the hook for the temporal consequences of their actions.
He saved the thief on the cross next to Him in eternal terms; but He did not release that thief from a painful death on a cross.
refugee wrote:
Thank you for the blessing. You are right, it was the Ezzos. Their book was very popular at the church I attended.
One of the little people wrote:
I have read articles from grieved parents, including fathers, who said that following their books/advice did so much damage to the children. Children now have major problems. Not touching a baby when crying, etc. No trust in child. Much damage. Children are forever scarred.
PATRICIA Chandler wrote:
Do you think God overlooks sexual predation?
Law Prof wrote:
Now THAT is how a Predator and/or Sociopath thinks.