Reformed Complementarian Women Are Expressing Serious Concerns With CBMW

“What do you fear, lady?" [Aragorn] asked. 
"A cage," [Éowyn] said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”  ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=74379&picture=face-man-and-woman
Man and Woman

On Monday, I spent a number of hours at the cardiologist's office with my mother, trying to get her cleared for her second cataract surgery. They almost stopped the first surgery a week ago when she went into atrial fibrillation during the procedure. Due to my mother in law's rapidly deteriorating condition, I was determined to get my mom's surgery over with ASAP. As I accompanied her into the echocardiogram room, I tweeted a link to Courtney Reissig's article over at Christianity Today's Her.Meneutics: Why Complementarian Men Need Complementarian Women. I was somewhat irritated by a number of her observations and thought others might find it worth reading.

Approximately 1 hour later, I glanced at my Twitter app and saw that there were 99+ notifications on my feed which means that something big was happening. It appears a number of people were also put off by her post and were tagging each other as well as Courtney. Even Aimee Byrd joined in on the discussion. 

The ESS/Trinity debate continues on in a big way. I  want to focus on two posts, one by Aimee Byrd and the other by Courtney Reissig. I continue to contend that this entire debate reared its ugly head because men like Wayne Grudem, Bruce Ware, Owen Strachan and others need it to justify the subordinate position of women to men in eternity. Here is one such article at CBMW: Relationships and Roles in the New Creation

The proponents of eternal subordination of women can use the Eternal Subordination of the Son(ESS) argument to their benefit. For example:

  1. Jesus is subordinate to the Father in eternity and He does so with joy.
  2. So, if it is good enough for Jesus, women, it should be good enough for you.
  3. If you don't like it, are you really a Christian?

Aimee Byrd says that CBMW has betrayed women

Aimee Byrd, also known as The Housewife Theologian, is both Reformed and a complementarian. Nonetheless, she has taken issue with the ESS doctrine. In this post, The Silence of Our Friendsshe dealt with what she calls "the institutional and theological betrayal of complementarian women."

She states that CBMW owes women an apology.

Those of us who have been discussing CBMW's issues for years will not find what she has to say surprising. The fact that she, as an insider, takes these positions is somewhat startling to me.  She claims that complementarian women have been betrayed by hyper-authoritarian teaching disguised as complementarian doctrine.

CBMW in particular owes a lot of women an apology. They haven't acknowledged one woman* who has critiqued their fringe teaching and asked for them to think of its practical consequences. And they wouldn't answer my one reasonable question about their stance on Nicene Trinitarian confessions. It has made some wonder whether they are even interested in listening to women. This is not complementarity according to how I thought of the definition of the word. It seems that “complementarity” has been reduced to nothing more than authority and submission, one inherent in men, the other in women. 

Women have been betrayed by the packaging and mass selling of hyper-authoritative teaching under the guise of complementarity. Men who know better are just helping to perpetuate it. And women who know better are also silent. Why is that?

She claims that CBMW has not retracted their teaching of Sanctified Testosterone and Soap Bubble Submission.

Even worse, CBMW has not affirmed Nicene Trinitarianism.

 CBMW has made no statement affirming Nicene Trinitarianism. They’ve made no retractions of the teaching of those who have taught ESS/ESF/ERAS under their brand. They have made no retractions, although I have personally asked them to, of troubling teachings such as Sanctified Testosterone or Soap Bubble Submission.

She believes that this teaching has led to abuse in some marriages.

Finally, someone within the Reformed camp is getting what many of us have been saying for years. 

While there has been helpful teaching that has come from CBMW, other teaching reduces women to ontologically subordinate roles. And some husbands have even used this kind of teaching to fuel abuse in their relationships. I get emails from women who have been in these relationships, thanking me for speaking out. Some hate complementarian teaching now because they were never heard.

She continues to emphasize her concern about this teaching leading to abuse.

Complementarian men should respond to women with a listening ear and a resolve to better teach what headship actually means and what it does not mean. They should be reaching out to abused women, whose husbands and churches hide under the banner of headship and complementarianism, and call out the abuse and false teaching loud and clear. They should be working to help church leaders to recognize abuse and provide godly counsel and resources for those abused. And if they truly believe in complementarity, they above all should want to invest in women with solid teaching, since they know their value to the church.

Aimee says that women have been blacklisted when they have asked to be heard.

But instead, when women like me plead for change, we are accused of being feminists or egalitarians or ‘thin complementarians.’ We are blacklisted and ignored. We are treated like women who won’t fall in line. Is that the beauty of complementarity?

I cannot stress enough the importance of Aimee Byrd's observations. She is an insider and believes in complementarianism but she sees the serious problems that arise from the poor teaching in this area. For these observations, she is being ostracized by the hard core complementarian crowd. 

This proves an interesting point that many of us have observed through the years. When you deal with this hardcore Calvinista crowd, you must march lock step with every jot and tiddle of their exacting beliefs. The moment an intelligent person says "Hey, wait a minute," she  become an adversary.

Courtney Reissig seems to overlook CBMW's woman problem.

In the article, Why Complementarian Men Need Complementarian Women, Reissig admits that she is in the minority at CBMW and other venues. She does not seem to view this as a problem.

Being outnumbered by men has always been part of my life. I was raised in a family of brothers. I’m the mother to three sons. I’m also the only female editor at the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW), so I’m all too familiar with what it’s like to be the only woman around.

Reissig demonstrates that there is a lack of input from women at CBMW

Reissig does not seem to be aware that she is demonstrating for many of us what we have long postulated. There is a lack of female input in these hard core complementarian groups. Yet, she thinks that it is OK because they listen to her. I suspect that she is quite submissive in her position and demeanor but more on that in a moment.

 I can tell you from personal experience that being the only woman in a room of complementarian men doesn't mean that I’m ignored, overruled, or seen as a token female. At CBMW, I’m frequently called on to provide my unique perspective. More often than not, my male colleagues yield to my opinion. (And yes, that is consonant with our views.) More often than not, they’re interested in how a woman might perceive what goes up on our site.  

Reissig claims that women have been an integral part of CBMW since its inception.

This is hard for me to fathom. If one reads Aimee Byrd's post above, it is evident that CBMW silences women who do not agree with them totally.

From its inception, CBMW has included women—from drafting the Danvers Statement in 1987 to speaking at present-day conferences. The female voice has not been silenced. It has been preserved and heard.

Reissig misrepresents the numbers of women at CBMW. 

Let me interject part of the Twitter conversation from the other day. Having read this article, I commented on Twitter that Reissig was a token female at CBMW. She attempted to deny it in this tweet, claiming that the small staff is basically 50/50. This is patently ridiculous.

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Apparently she has not looked at her own website or is she totally invested in trying to present a woman friendly CBMW that the facts do not matter? To make matters worse, CJ Mahaney is on the Council which speaks volumes as to the character and nature of this council.

She mentions some women who have blogged on the ESS debate.

I knew this would be interesting because she represents the truly hard-line complementarians who support the ESS doctrine. CBMW supports the idea that women will be subordinate to men in eternity (that means forever and ever!) 

 a few women have spoken up to get involved. Aimee Byrd, Hannah Anderson, and Wendy Alsup have actively participated in the recent discussion, including a substantial post on the issue on Alsup’s site, Theology for Women. Their post takes issue with some of the characterizations posted on CBMW and shared by other theologians.

Reissig is dismayed that the majority of women's voices in this debate are not ones that support the stance of CBMW.

I think she was truly startled that all complementarian women are not jumping up and down to support ESS. Could it be that she functions in a bubble?

While I appreciate their contribution to the discussion, it’s notable that most of the women’s voices in this debate have been critical ones. For a more robust conversation, I believe that we need women from both ends of the complementarian spectrum to join the male voices who often lead these conversations.

Reissig first claims she is in process in regards to the Trinity debate. 

I don’t have answers to the Trinity debate, which I’m still analyzing and processing

Then she said she supports the CBMW viewpoint.

Of course she is not in process. She absolutely must believe the party line at CBMW or she might find there is one less women in the staff. Why even pretend she is in process?

To those complementarian friends who, like me, are defending this view of the Trinity,

Reissig proceeds to define her ideas as meta-level analysis!

I had to giggle at her terminology for this next section of her post. She called it "meta-level analysis of the conversation." Meta analysis is one of the more recent, overused terms of the Calvinistas. It sounds *intellectual* but it is frequently misused as it is in this instance. According to Merriam Webster Dictionary, meta analysis is defined as:

a quantitative statistical analysis of several separate but similar experiments or studies in order to test the pooled data for statistical significance

As you will see, she does nothing of the sort. She proceeds to go after the critics.

The critics are not being winsome.

After having a good laugh at this overused term, I noted that her argument is quite simple. Stop being mean to us. We don't really understand why you get upset at what we say. She is being serious, folks.

To those complementarian friends taking issue with Ware’s and Grudem's understanding of the Trinity, I would suggest that you consider how your frustrations might inhibit your ability to share your views winsomely. Those of us on the other side of the debate aren’t maliciously ignoring you. We simply don’t always know how our ideas impact you. And even if you disagree vehemently with our views, we don’t want to be labeled as heretics or deemed unfit for a teaching position'

She considers herself privileged since she is not as conflicted as the rest of us 'flicted women.

To those complementarian friends who, like me, are defending this view of the Trinity, I would suggest that you listen to what’s being said by those who disagree with us. We might feel misrepresented when they critique our views. But wouldn’t we rather be wronged for the sake of unity among our brothers and sisters (1 Cor. 6:7)? We need to understand how our words and ideas have been perceived, and how those perceptions affect others. As women who are not at odds with complementarian teaching, we should use our position of relative “privilege” to try and understand those who feel more conflicted.

Peace and unity will begin with CBMW which is the example of men and women working together!

I kid you not! Reissig is so immersed in CBMW that she demonstrates an inability to understand what CBMW represents to many of us. Unity between men and women is not a term that ever comes to mind!

In the midst of this particular civil war among complementarians, I believe that peace and unity are still possible. Perhaps it begins with where CBMW started in the first place—with men and women working together for the cause of Christ, unified around our shared identity as image bearers of God, both male and female.

Behind the scenes of the Soap Bubble Opera.

in the Twitter exchange, a number of people asked Reissig why the infamous Soap Bubble post suddenly disappeared from the CBMW website. You can read our piece on the original post here. Reissig claims that she made the decision to take it down after she read it. Reissig was being a bit misleading here as Aimee demonstrates.

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Here is where it gets interesting. Owen Strachan, the head of CBMW told Aimee Byrd that the post wouldn't come down because it was biblical.™ Enter Grant Castleberry, CBMW Chef Editor. Reissig was getting lots of Tweets about the Soap Bubble post. Castleberry was trying to back up Reissig but he made things more complicated.

Screen Shot 2016-06-29 at 5.40.19 PM

Uh oh! Strachan claimed it was Biblical. Castleberry said he would try to explain it soon but he was on a flight with his family. We are left wondering why the post really was taken down and why CBMW and all those manly men couldn't give a reason for their decision. So, Dee is going to make a stab at a plausible cause.

The Soap Bubble post was ridiculous. It is fascinating that no one at CBMW, not even the token woman editor, could see the obvious problems with it. A number of people throughout the blogosphere, including Aimee Byrd, condemned that article. It was soon after Aimee's post that the Soap Bubble burst and disappeared. I believe that negative publicity was the cause of its removal. The staff was embarrassed and didn't have the guts to say so. So it just vanished. 

Bottom line:

When the presumed constituency of CBMW, Reformed complementarian women, begins to seriously question a number of CBMW *approved* articles and doctrines, CBMW has a serious problem. Courtney Reissig seemed to be surprised at the number of complementarian women who took issue with an article like Soap Bubble Submission as well as the disappearance of the post on their website. She needs to get out of her bubble and spend some time with disenfranchised women. CBMW has gone a bit too far and is getting well deserved pushback.

To CBMW: The advance of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not at stake if people don't see things your way. It has lasted 2,000 years without your organization. You have pushed things way too far.

Thanks go out to Aimee Byrd. Although I do not share some secondary doctrines with her, I know that we both share concerns about those who use hyper-authoritarianism to justify abuse. She gets it and, for that, I am thankful.

CBMW is in a bit of trouble.

Comments

Reformed Complementarian Women Are Expressing Serious Concerns With CBMW — 632 Comments


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    Thanks for doing this, Dee. So needed!!


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    First


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    Dang


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    Very interesting..


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    ISTM that Aimee is on the very same path that many of us were on not too long ago, we were complementarians, believed it wholeheartedly, began to see the hypocricy and inconsistency…now firmly believe that the only biblically consistent hermeneutic points to an egalitarian perspective. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.


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    I’m not sure it’s fair to say that CBMW has “pushed things too far”. What they are teaching isn’t actually Christianity. That goes beyond pushing too far. Where’s the “farewell, CBMW” tweet, Piper?


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    If I’m not first, it’s because I actually read the post.


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    …and I read slowly.


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    Ken P. wrote:

    If I’m not first, it’s because I actually read the post.

    :o)


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    @ Ken P.: 🙂 🙂 🙂


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    Reissig sounds like she hireling just doing what someone tells her to do. I am missing something?


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    Not sure if it is the same Courtney but looks a lot like the one interviews at SBTS for some news outlet back when Palin was running for VP. She was the token female student. The students were saying how it was ok for women to be President but not the spiritual head, pastor, etc. So, Palin could be commander in chief but could not teach a mixed bible study. Got it.

    This was in converse to Voddie who was on national news saying women should not be elected president or VP.

    That movement needs a Talmud. I can’t keep up with their rules, roles and formulas for the sexes. Grudem already started one with the 83. :o)


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    “War is the province of men, Éowyn.” ~ Éomir, at the Dunharrow Camp [The Return of the King, film version.]

    Of course, Éomir was speaking about humans in battle versus Hobbits / Merry. But we know how this all turned out with Éowyn and The Witch-king of Angmar.


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    Celia wrote:

    I’m just gonna drop this here

    This is the typical way that Miller and his group attack any woman who disagrees with their positions. If they are this vicious in public how are they in private towards women?


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    @ mot:
    Miller’s gonna give her a warning soon.


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    TWW has posted regarding a less than Biblical viewpoint of women (and men, for that matter) and community. Key with CBMW. Tragic.

    In some African cultures, women are not valued as people. As a single woman missionary there, it seemed obvious to me that the Christian men teachers not only didn’t correct this, but added fuel to the fire with their submission voodoo. (Some were divided in their own marriages – their wives clearly not wanting to be there, but oh yeah, the husband has the last and final word.)

    Howard Hendricks used to say that if your Christianity does not work at home, it doesn’t work; don’t export it. Well, those missionaries were exporting their horrific gender bias packaged with false teaching in spades.

    Years later, a friend works in an area where six militias gang-rape women as the norm, with impunity. Accepted. Guys have the last word. Maybe those guys follow Doug Wilson. Would this be playing out differently today if the missionaries had done their job? Heart wrenching. They lost the opportunity to make a difference with truth on a whole continent.

    Sometimes as American Christians we just don’t get it. The ripple effect of some of our nonsense is tragic.

    (BTW, I read fast, and was anticipating this post.)


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    Lydia wrote:

    This was in converse to Voddie who was on national news saying women should not be elected president or VP.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with Baucham and his Gothard/Vision Forum buddies, but at least they were consistent in their beliefs.


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    On the council of CBMW is Dorothy Patterson, D.Min., Dr. Theol. (yes, those are real earned degrees — she’s a smart woman) who definitely wears the pants in her home. Anyone who has been at the manse on campus and seen Dorothy and Paige in action knows who the boss is.


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    dee wrote:

    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    Almost.

    Well, now ….. Dee, in all fairness, Dr. Fundy. was the first MAN to comment. Nuff said?


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    on Reissig: ‘We don’t really understand why you get upset at what we say. She is being serious, folks.’

    well, the thing is people have tried to communicate and they have been shut out, silenced, belittled, and ignored …
    of COURSE ‘we don’t really understand why’ because they refused to listen to the reasons . . .

    these neo-Cals can’t say that women haven’t tried to communicate, and the onus of responsibility for understanding ‘why’ needs to fall on them what closed their ears to the pleas of those who were upset

    Mrs. Reissig is in a position to be a conduit between the men of her organization and those women with grave concerns. Perhaps, if it’s true that she really doesn’t understand, she can offer to serve in that capacity, since she is not (yet) muzzled.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Dr. Fundy. was the first MAN to comment.

    LOL!


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    To riff Obi Wan Kenobi. This is not the Christianity I was looking for.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ” She needs to get out of her bubble”
    Maybe it’s a soap bubble. Could she just be in need of a good rinsing?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    ” She needs to get out of her bubble”
    Maybe it’s a soap bubble. Could she just be in need of a good rinsing?

    Why is she so surprised that other women might object to the complementary view? She seems very biased, but I am sure that is what the committee wanted.


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    Anonymous wrote:

    On the council of CBMW is Dorothy Patterson, D.Min., Dr. Theol. (yes, those are real earned degrees — she’s a smart woman) who definitely wears the pants in her home. Anyone who has been at the manse on campus and seen Dorothy and Paige in action knows who the boss is.

    I’ve found that those are usually the type of women who yell the loudest for wifely submission.


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    mot wrote:

    I am sure that is what the committee wanted.

    I wonder if her middle name is Stepford?


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    On the council of CBMW is Dorothy Patterson, D.Min., Dr. Theol. (yes, those are real earned degrees — she’s a smart woman) who definitely wears the pants in her home. Anyone who has been at the manse on campus and seen Dorothy and Paige in action knows who the boss is.
    Patricia wrote: I’ve found that those are usually the type of women who yell the loudest for wifely submission.

    Would that be because maybe they want some people (other than children) to submit to them? “If I can’t be at the top of the ladder, I’m going after the second rung!” ????


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    Ken P. wrote:

    If I’m not first, it’s because I actually read the post.

    Winners type first and then read, silly.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    ” She needs to get out of her bubble”
    Maybe it’s a soap bubble. Could she just be in need of a good rinsing?

    You are on fire tonight with posts!


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    Jack wrote:

    To riff Obi Wan Kenobi. This is not the Christianity I was looking for.

    That will preach.

    Seems these types are all about going back to Egypt.


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    Anonymous wrote:

    On the council of CBMW is Dorothy Patterson, D.Min., Dr. Theol. (yes, those are real earned degrees — she’s a smart woman)

    Read the requirements for the on-line Dr. Theology. Not impressed.


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    @ Anonymous:
    She even went to South Africa for the Dr. Theology. :o)

    http://dorothypatterson.org/about/

    She changed her bio! She took out the part where she attended a midnight buffet with Arafat.

    But she does say this:

    “Despite the successful completion of these degrees, Dr. Patterson’s theological education was not her idea: “My husband is responsible for my studies in theology. I did not have the inclination to do it. My health challenges and responsibilities in our home as wife and mother just pulled me away from an interest in the pursuit of graduate and post-graduate studies. I owe my graduate education to my husband’s encouragement and determination to put me through these programs in order that I could be a better helper to him, especially in the area of woman-to-woman teaching.”

    So, she did not want to do the grad level stuff but her husband wanted her to so she would be a better helper to him.

    Anonymous, are you suggesting Hyacinth…err…I mean Dorothy is not being truthful?


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    FW Rez wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    On the council of CBMW is Dorothy Patterson, D.Min., Dr. Theol. (yes, those are real earned degrees — she’s a smart woman)
    Read the requirements for the on-line Dr. Theology. Not impressed.

    Can you teach homemaking without a D.Min.?


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I’ve found that those are usually the type of women who yell the loudest for wifely submission.

    Bingo!


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    wholeheartedly disagree with Baucham and his Gothard/Vision Forum buddies, but at least rhey were consistent in their beliefs.

    That is exactly right. It is the cognitive dissonance that keeps more people from seeing the problem with the typical comp doctrine that is always inconsistent.

    I used to remind the SBC comp dictators that Mrs. Criswell taught a mixed SS class of over 300 that was on the radio back in the 70’s and 80’s. The size of a typical SBC church! Why was that ok? Well… err….her husband okayed it.

    Right.


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    FYI from the book section at the top of the page and on topic:

    Commenter/poster/author/researcher Barb Orlowski, Canada, (blog is Church Exiters) posted these books on 8/25/15 on another Wartburg Watch article regarding the whole comp discussion as recommended reading.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I would like to recommend three books by Susanna Krizo which attempt to expose the Complementarian agenda.
    *“Recovering From Un-Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Patriarchy”
    “Recovering From Un-Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Patriarchy” examines the main arguments in an easy-to-read dialogue format that allows the reader to reach his/her own conclusions while enjoying a deep, yet lighthearted, theological discussion.
    Here is an excerpt from one book review:
    “Thank God for Susanna Krizo! She makes complicated theology easy and fun to read. This is one of the most entertaining books we’ve ever read. At times it is so funny that you find yourself laughing and having a good time, and totally forget that theology is usually a dull topic to read! What we love most about her writing is that she works so hard to develop a full logical argument, address both sides of an issue, and really thinks things through to reasonable conclusions, all the while staying faithful to the Bible. Many theologians don’t like answering questions because they don’t really want to think things through because then their conclusions fall apart. But the Bible says “come let us reason together” because we need to really test all doctrine before accepting it. That’s what this book does so well.”
    *“When Dogmas Die: The Return of Biblical Equality”
    “When Dogmas Die” begins with a comprehensive look at Genesis 3:16 and the view that women are born inferior.
    Book Quote: “Always ask why—not who, but why—for if you ask who gave the man authority over the woman, you may not find out why the man was given the authority, but if you ask why the man was given authority over the woman, you will find that it was the man’s idea.
    Book Review Excerpt:
    “When Dogmas Die” is a stunning critique of one of the great handbooks of Patriarchy in the Church: “Restoring Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,” the collection of essays on gender roles compiled by John Piper and Wayne Grudem.
    Grudem is considered a scholar by many in the church, so it comes as quite a surprise to find his work so tainted with errors and omissions, as this book aptly demonstrates and documents.
    The subjection of women by men began as a result of the fall in the garden, and Krizo begins the book with a Chapter entitled “Genesis 3:16” to prove that point, and to show why Piper and Grudem’s attempt to teach a God-ordained hierarchy prior to the fall is in error.
    *“Genesis 3: The Origin of Gender Roles”
    Book Review Excerpts:
    “Witty and insightful, Susanna Krizo’s new book joins an ever-growing body of literature calling for the full recognition of women’s equality in all corners of the Christian faith. Challenging patriarchal assumptions carried over from ancient cultures, Krizo paints a picture of women and men sharing authority and celebrating what it means to be created in the image of God.”
    “If the creation account doesn’t mention the man’s authority, and if Ephesians 5 instructs husbands to love their wives the way they love themselves instead of exercising authority over them, why do our theologians nevertheless insist that Ephesians 5 confirms that the man was given authority over the woman as part of creation” (from Chapter 7)
    “The answer is simple: because men desire to rule women as a consequence of sin and no longer love their wives the way humans were created to love — unselfishly.” (from Chapter 7)


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    @ JYJames:
    It pains me to even think we are exporting something that embeds and affirms such brutality in a culture because they interpret head as boss/authority. Seeing women as lesser beings does not translate into protection as they claim. Their view of themselves as in authority actually harms their soul and spiritual growth.

    I met some Kenyan Anglican priests last summer who are advocating for women to develop ALL their spiritual gifts for the edification of the entire body. Their pleaing prayers for women made me cry.


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    Ken F’s spot on post on June 3, 2016 about Comp. So good I share it widely:

    Speaking of Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem’s semi-Arian heresy, The Eternal Subordination of the Son, Ken F. made this insightful post on May 25th here:
    ““Let me see if I understand Ware’s logic. Woman was made from man, which makes woman lower than man. Man was made from dirt, which makes man lower than dirt? No, wait, that won’t work. Ok, lets try this. Man was made after all the plants and animals, which means man has dominion over all of them. Woman was made after man, which means woman has dominion over man. No, wait, that doesn’t work either. What’s a poor complementarian to do?”
    Another line of thought of complementarians takes the curse God placed on the woman as the norm: “And he will rule over you” becomes a normative mantra to support the their view that men are supposed to rule over women.
    So let’s apply that same normative mantra to men from the other curses:
    “In toil you will eat of [the ground] All the days of your life.” That means men are only allowed to eat from what they personally produce from the field. And only if it involves personal toiling. No more restaurants. No more grocery stores. No more pubs. No more home-cooked meals. I guess it even means no fasting because men have to eat on all days.
    “And you will eat the plants of the field.” Same as above, but also say goodbye to all meat and dairy products. That will put a damper on potlucks. But on the bright side, it would force men to drink black coffee, which is the only manly way to drink it.
    “By the sweat of your face You will eat bread.” No more air conditioning – all bread must be eaten while sweating from the face. This could also mean that it is sinful to live in cool climates, unless one can find a hot place to eat bread. I suppose one could create rules about whether or not sweating is mandatory while eating non-bread foods.
    If we think that it’s ok to resist these other curses, then why would we in any way want to retain the curse of men ruling over women? I am so glad that my wife is strong enough to not need me to dominate her like that.


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    Courtney Reissig’s last name was formerly “Tarter” not “Tater.”


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Courtney Reissig’s last name was formerly “Tarter” not “Tater.”

    Dang.


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    Thanks for the name correction, Brad! Typos are funny sometimes. Tater/Tarter. But I think “Tater Tot” might stick. Maybe she’ll keep considering and learning and eventually grow up into being “Spud”.


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    Tree wrote:

    Thanks for the name correction, Brad! Typos are funny sometimes. Tater/Tarter. But I think “Tater Tot” might stick. Maybe she’ll keep considering and learning and eventually grow up into being “Spud”.

    I noticed the typo, but I enjoyed the fact that taters grow underground so much that I decided not to mention it. Thanks for spoiling my fun, Brad. Men, Harummmppphhhh!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Thanks for spoiling my fun, Brad. Men, Harummmppphhhh!

    Nancy2, something feels really off about this comment to me, and I did not appreciate it. Maybe I’ll know better why tomorrow and be able to respond, but I’m letting you know this evening anyway.


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    Lydia wrote:

    advocating for women

    Thanks for sharing. Highly inspiring. My examples were all from West Africa. Wonder if it makes a difference.


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    Was an Evangelical Free Church outside Los Angeles theologically hijacked in 2014? The church is The Bridge in Newbury Park. Part of this post is discernment as well.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/did-tim-sherreitt-theologically-hijack-the-bridge-of-newbury-park-formerly-evangelical-free-of-conejo-valley-when-steve-larson-left/


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    Velour wrote:

    “The answer is simple: because men desire to rule women as a consequence of sin and no longer love their wives the way humans were created to love — unselfishly.”

    YES!

    I remember reading about ‘domination’ as a CONSEQUENCE of the sin of Eden before. This:

    … “domination” indicates the disturbance and loss of the stability of that fundamental equality which the man and the woman possess in the “unity of the two”: and this is especially to the disadvantage of the woman, whereas only the equality resulting from their dignity as persons can give to their mutual relationship the character of an authentic “communio personarum”.
    (John Paul II, from the apostolic letter ‘Mulieris Dignitatem’)


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    There was a phrase I heard back when I knew some people of the Wiccan tradition, though I share little in common with their “theology” this one three word phrase always struck me. Do no harm. I find that same or even a higher commandment in the Bible, Love God and love neighbor and these commandments are one in the same. I think people should serve where their gifted if gifted to teach or preach then do it and we will all be blessed if gifted hospitality then also do that. I don’t think gender should really be a limiting factor.


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    owen strachan states this as the reason the ridiculous soapbubble article was taken down:

    “Post offline as folks got confused over it. That’s why. Thanks!”

    https://twitter.com/ostrachan/status/747575472553234432

    so let me get this straight:

    grant castleberry says soapbubble article was taken down because it was unbiblical

    aimee byrd explains that owen strachan refused to take it down because, as it turns out, it was biblical

    then owen strachan explains it was taken down because readers were unable to think clearly.

    the issue was the readers. the problem lie with how inept they were with comprehension.

    CBMW can’t figure out what’s biblical and what isn’t, owen strachan and co-hort grant castleberry contradict each other, so let’s just put the blame on the readers and wash our hands of it. see how easy that was? 🙂

    that way owen doesn’t have to recant that he embarrassingly affirms control-freakery-abusiveness as headship because it’s biblical. he doesn’t have to say that he was wrong, grant was right. owen wins!

    what flailing idiots.

    courtney reissig, you defer to these flounderers on purpose?? I assume, then, that this is a laudable example of biblical womanhood.

    what about people who read the article whose marriages were influenced by it? who will use their personal influence to promote and encourage such things with others? CBMW just chalks it up to collateral damage? too much male ego & female submissiveness to recant?

    “biblical” manhood and womanhood… i think there’s a credibility problem.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    In case readers would care to see the full original article from the WayBack Machine internet archive, here is the link:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160306075124/http://cbmw.org/topics/wives-mothers/soap-bubbles-submission/

    You are amazing as usual, B-rad.

    Great post, Dee. It may actually prompt me to return to blogging! This CBMW nonsense is truly non sense. 


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    Forgive the bad formatting on my previous comment. Am on my phone in an airport in the EU. @ Bill Kinnon:


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    “Perhaps it begins with where CBMW started in the first place—with men and women working together for the cause of Christ, unified around our shared identity as image bearers of God, both male and female.”–courtney reissig
    ++++++++++++

    this is, like, crazy idealism while being high.

    CBMW is utterly divisive concerning men and women. it divides the two groups (to the point that only one of them was created in the image of God), in the process creating hostilities between the two that weren’t necessarily there to begin with, then pretends to bring them together, in a synthetic contrived way.

    sort of like breaking people down, and then rebuilding them according to the specifications of the controlling person or group with power and powerful tactics.

    in some ways it reminds me of the movie The Giver, which i just saw for the 2nd time. everyone had a role determined for them. everything was fake. fake people.


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    @ Velour:
    I’ve picked up the “submissive woman” at the fundamentalist church I went to but these clowns are taking it to a very strange place. I mean “good enough for Jesus, good enough for you” as applies to women makes no sense. They know Jesus was a guy right? So if their ESS theology applies only to women then are men superior to Jesus? Maybe the fact that men in the 1st century wore robes instead of pants confuses them. I wonder whether Scottish kilts fit into the ESs worldview as well, where do other clothes fit in? Does my Hawaiian shirt collection make me more inferior. A non sequitur, I know but it makes as much sense as what’s described above.


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    Jack wrote:

    I’ve picked up the “submissive woman” at the fundamentalist chur

    Holy phones & fingers, Batman! That came out wrong! I meant to say that was kind of what the church preached. It was a vibe I picked up on.


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    @ brad/futuristguy:

    Thanks for the correction. I have edited my comment.


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    Velour wrote:

    I am gonna call Courtney “Tater-Tot” from here on out as that girl has some growing up to do.

    Agreed!


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    Bill Kinnon wrote:

    Forgive the bad formatting on my previous comment. Am on my phone in an airport in the EU. @ Bill Kinnon:

    I made the proper adjustment 4 U. 🙂


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Nancy2, something feels really off about this comment to me, and I did not appreciate it. Maybe I’ll know better why tomorrow and be able to respond, but I’m letting you know this evening anyway.

    Didn’t really mean anything towards you, Brad. Or anything towards men, in general. Just poking fun (and half asleep). ……. CBMW …. Of course a man would point out the typo??? Sorry if it came off bad. I don’t mean to insult you, and I wasn’t comparing or putting you in the same category as those guys. Hope this make some sense – haven’t had my coffee, yet!

    Courtney Reissig – when I saw the typo, I thought, “how appropriate!” Taters have to be covered by dirt, man is made from dirt, and CBMW, etc, think that a woman must be covered by a man.


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    @ Deb:
    Definitely. A bad joke from a woman who was exhausted from working up blackberries half the night! I forget sometimes …….. people can’t see the twinkle of sarcasm in my eyes on line!


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    “And even if you disagree vehemently with our views, we don’t want to be labeled as heretics or deemed unfit for a teaching position”

    Doesn’t feel great, does it?


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    Malcolm Gladwell just started a podcast, and his first episode discusses something called ‘moral licensing’. This is the idea that doing something perceived to be morally good licenses the the opposite behavior in other contexts. He talks about several examples on the podcast, ranging from examples of people who voted for Barack Obama saying racist things in other contexts–the idea being that because they voted for a black man for president, they couldn’t actually be racist–to the history of Jews in Germany, and the first female prime minister of Australia. Link is here: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/01-the-lady-vanishes/ (roughly 30 minutes).

    I bring this up to say that I think this is part of what’s going on in complementarian circles. CBMW isn’t sexist because they have women! who they listen to! on their editorial team. And because of this, they don’t have to take other women’s voices seriously. It also helps explain Courtney Reissig’s position: she feels heard, and she’s an insider, so the critics don’t know what they’re talking about.

    This is an explanation, not an excuse–I think complementarians need to do some serious listening to the women in their midst–but I think it’s helpful context for these dynamics.


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    Quoting Reissig from OP:

    I can tell you from personal experience that being the only woman in a room of complementarian men doesn’t mean that I’m ignored, overruled, or seen as a token female. At CBMW, I’m frequently called on to provide my unique perspective. More often than not, my male colleagues yield to my opinion. (And yes, that is consonant with our views.) More often than not, they’re interested in how a woman might perceive what goes up on our site. “

    She is called upon to assist them in promulgating *the doctrines the men have already established*.

    Were there any women in the discussion when the CBMW were laying their foundation of absolute truth on ‘complementarianism’?

    I sincerely doubt it. After all the hard work is done, they will allow a *couple* of women to ‘decorate’ their doctrine for dissemination to other women. But, they have no interest in any woman’s view of the actual doctrine.

    When it comes to actual doctrine? Their attitude is well exemplified by the following comment by one of the Bayly brothers:

    I had warned that it is not the place of women such as Rachel Miller and her female friends publicly to rebuke Pastors Doug Wilson and John Piper for their doctrinal commitments, particularly when the doctrinal commitments being rebuked are the simple Christian orthodoxy all Christians have believed and preached in all places across all time.

    In put from women? IT’S NOT THEIR PLACE.


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    @ BL:
    Mary Kassian was involved. So was Dorothy Patterson.


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    Dee, fwiw, her use of the word “meta-level analysis” is completely consistent with how I’ve used (and heard used) “meta”. It may not be dictionary correct terminology, but I feel like it’s appropriate.

    I’ve honestly not heard that term used much in religious circles. It tends to be used more in my software development/PC gaming world 🙂

    It goes without saying that usually when people say “analysis” in common conversation, they aren’t really doing hard core analysis. They usually just mean “I looked stuff over”.

    As for the rest of the article, I don’t even have words to describe (yet) what I just read . . .


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    Nancy2:

    “Definitely. A bad joke from a woman who was exhausted from working up blackberries half the night!”

    Actual blackberries? I’m getting ready to get up early on Saturday morning to head for one of the biggest black raspberry farms in the country and get some pounds of the tasty things for pies, jam, cobbler, etc.


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    @ elastigirl:
    So these guys (masculine gendered noun intended) blame the victim not only in serious, horrific cases of abuse, but also in minor matters of purportedly “misunderstood” intent. One could be forgiven for thinking that it’s practically a core part of their ideology.

    With that said, given how they keep being “misunderstood,” and given the present example of their mis-use of meta-analysis, I’d like to leave the CBMW with some advice that may lead them in the direction of a dictionary, and consequently better communication skills…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk


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    So Courtney Reissig is still analyzing and processing the arguments with meta-level analysis, but is already defending ESS? Somehow I get the impression that in this case, her male colleagues did not seek her unique perspective first, more often than not yielding to her opinion.

    I’m sorry we haven’t been winsome enough for her. 😛

    “We simply don’t always know how our ideas impact you.”

    That would explain a few things…CBMW spouts a lot of things they don’t really think through first, and just expect their target constituency to swallow.

    And as far as heretics go, since when do heretics ever want to be labeled as such? That would get in the way of their being able to spread their heretical ideas.


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    NJ wrote:

    Actual blackberries? I’m getting ready to get up early on Saturday morning to head for one of the biggest black raspberry farms in the country and get some pounds of the tasty things for pies, jam, cobbler, etc.

    Yup. Not domesticated blackberries, either! Real, wild blackberries that are abundant and juicy in this area – so much more flavor than domesticateds! Jam, jelly, cobblers and pies!


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    Josh wrote:

    With that said, given how they keep being “misunderstood,”

    I don’t believe their being “misunderstood” is the problem! I think the problem is that they are failing to convince us to agree with them.


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    BL wrote:

    After all the hard work is done, they will allow a *couple* of women to ‘decorate’ their doctrine for dissemination to other women.

    Indeed. All they want is to make it just a hair under the level of obnoxiousness that will make most if not all women reject it utterly. They don’t want to change what they think and they surely want to maintain control.


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    Lea wrote:

    Indeed. All they want is to make it just a hair under the level of obnoxiousness that will make most if not all women reject it utterly. They don’t want to change what they think and they surely want to maintain control

    Same thing with the 2000 BF&M. I believe there were 2 women on this committee.


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    There are three simple questions that begged to be asked; I wonder why complementarians are not asked to answer these:

    1. Was the curse prescriptive or descriptive?
    2. If the curse of sin was broken through the work of Christ, why does the breaking of that curse apply only to men, and not women?
    3. Where in Scripture are you given permission to diminish the work of Christ on the cross by saying the curse is broken only for men?

    My two euros…


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    mot wrote:

    Same thing with the 2000 BF&M. I believe there were 2 women on this committee.

    Mrs. Paige Patterson and Mrs. Al Mohler?


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    Question 4: Is Christ’s work of salvation as sufficient and complete for women as it is for men?


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    Addendum to all 4 questions: Justify your response…


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    Deb wrote:

    Mary Kassian was involved. So was Dorothy Patterson.

    Thanks for the correction. 😉


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    mot wrote:
    Same thing with the 2000 BF&M. I believe there were 2 women on this committee.
    Mrs. Paige Patterson and Mrs. Al Mohler?

    Shot coffee out my nose reading this….LOL….


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    NJ wrote:
    Actual blackberries? I’m getting ready to get up early on Saturday morning to head for one of the biggest black raspberry farms in the country and get some pounds of the tasty things for pies, jam, cobbler, etc.
    Yup. Not domesticated blackberries, either! Real, wild blackberries that are abundant and juicy in this area – so much more flavor than domesticateds! Jam, jelly, cobblers and pies!

    And picking wild blackberries….love the jelly and cobblers, but I scratch thinking of the chiggers that alway come with berry picking in East Texas…..especially mayhaws….


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    @ Ken P.:
    🙂


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    @ Ken P.:
    LOL


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    Lydia wrote:

    The students were saying how it was ok for women to be President but not the spiritual head, pastor, etc. So, Palin could be commander in chief but could not teach a mixed bible study. Got it.

    This explanation is one of the stupidest ones out there and they are hurt every time they use it.


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    @ Celia:

    I've been following this.


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    @ brad/futuristguy:
    🙂 I will try to call you soon. Things are very busy right now.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Would this be playing out differently today if the missionaries had done their job? Heart wrenching. They lost the opportunity to make a difference with truth on a whole continent.

    Would you ever be interested in writing a post about this?


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    Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    There are three simple questions that begged to be asked; I wonder why complementarians are not asked to answer these:

    They don’t want to find the truth. They just want to be in control.


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    K.D. wrote:

    And picking wild blackberries….love the jelly and cobblers, but I scratch thinking of the chiggers

    And ticks. Lots of ticks!

    Oh, yeah! Hey, okrapod, it isn’t really blackberries that draw the snakes. Wild blackberries are usually found near rocky areas and in thickets. Snakes like the rocks and thickets. That’s where they find their food and that can take their siestas in the shade!


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    @ Anonymous:
    Here PhD was from the university of S Africa and done long distance. We looked into this years ago. Apparently they give you all sorts of points for writing books, speeches, teaching, etc.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Same thing with the 2000 BF&M. I believe there were 2 women on this committee.

    Mrs. Paige Patterson and Mrs. Al Mohler?

    Believe so. Wonder what input these two women had–me thinks just signing their names to the document.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Well, now ….. Dee, in all fairness, Dr. Fundy. was the first MAN to comment. Nuff said?

    He will be first, forever and ever!!!


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    Christiane wrote:

    Mrs. Reissig is in a position to be a conduit between the men of her organization and those women with grave concerns.

    Can I be frank? I think she is pretending that she doesn't understand. It's a typical deflection tactic. But, I could be wrong.


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    “Wayne Grudem, Bruce Ware, Owen Strachan and others need it to justify the subordinate position of women to men in eternity. Here is one such article at CBMW: Relationships and Roles in the New Creation”

    Somebody help me out, here.
    I can’t wrap my banged-up, damaged head around the apparent need for women to be submissive/subordinate to men in the afterlife.
    Do they believe the men will praise and worship God in Heaven, and women will be there simply to “help” the men praise and worship God?


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    @ FW Rez:
    Agreed. See my comment below. We looked into this years ago. For a short time, a PhD from U. of South Africa was all the rage in certain groups.


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    Is there an egalitarian counterpart to CBMW?


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    Lydia wrote:

    She changed her bio! She took out the part where she attended a midnight buffet with Arafat.

    Snort!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Can you teach homemaking without a D.Min.?

    I think I need to do research on baseboard cleaning.


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    mot wrote:

    Believe so. Wonder what input these two women had–me thinks just signing their names to the document.

    Maybe fetching coffee and donuts – and being “winsome”!


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    ishy wrote:

    Is there an egalitarian counterpart to CBMW?

    Probably not. They tend to be too busy minding their own business. 😉


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    dee wrote:

    I think I need to do research on baseboard cleaning.

    Perhaps you should write a dissertation on it!


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    @ Nancy2:
    I saw some blackberries at the edge of one of our farm fields last Saturday. I guess I’ll just let the birds (and snakes) eat them.

    They weren’t all that plump and juicy anyway.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    owen strachan states this as the reason the ridiculous soapbubble article was taken down:
    “Post offline as folks got confused over it. That’s why. Thanks!”

    I didn’t see this. Thank you.

    Translation: We are just too stupid to understand such a deep post.


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    ishy wrote:

    They don’t want to find the truth. They just want to be in control.

    That is why places like voices controls the comments.


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    @ Nancy2:

    That makes sense.


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    Hey Dee, how are you doing?


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    @ ishy:
    CBE-Christians for Biblical Equality.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I saw some blackberries at the edge of one of our farm fields last Saturday. I guess I’ll just let the birds (and snakes) eat them.
    They weren’t all that plump and juicy anyway.

    We avoid those patches, too. There are some patches here and there that are small, hard, and really seedy ….. bird food!


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    dee wrote:

    Christians for Biblical Equality

    Thank you. I did a search, but all I came up with was links to CBMW. Perhaps CBE needs to work on their SEO.


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    dee wrote:

    For a short time, a PhD from U. of South Africa was all the rage in certain groups.

    At least when the fad was Edinburg or Rüshlikon they had to spend time on campus. Now apparently a weekend spent as a guest in the library of anywhere with a British accent is really something.


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    dee wrote:

    I think I need to do research on baseboard cleaning.

    Pinterest. Pinterest should be giving out degrees!

    [by the by, I did not know until recently that pinterest also has some scantily clad/naked ladies! I apparently have some sort of facebook (male) friend who uses it for that and it keeps showing up in my feed, along with all the cleaning/kids bday ideas/recipes. I am going to have to figure out how to get rid of that]


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    dee wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    owen strachan states this as the reason the ridiculous soapbubble article was taken down:
    “Post offline as folks got confused over it. That’s why. Thanks!”

    I didn’t see this. Thank you.

    Translation: We are just too stupid to understand such a deep post.

    I saw it when I was doing my twitter rabbit hole investigation the other day.

    We aren’t the ones who are stupid, methinks. They tipped their hat and now they’re trying to pretend they did not.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I met some Kenyan Anglican priests last summer who are advocating for women to develop ALL their spiritual gifts for the edification of the entire body. Their pleaing prayers for women made me cry.

    Lydia, were they also advocating for the ordination of women?


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    ishy wrote:

    Is there an egalitarian counterpart to CBMW?

    CBE, christians for Biblical Equality. A great group that I am happy to support.


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    I posted this on Owen’s FB wall and he deleted it. Simply said, “Curious what you think about this.”


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    dee wrote:

    For a short time, a PhD from U. of South Africa was all the rage in certain groups.

    My wife and I were at SEBTS in the late ’90s when this was en vogue. It seemed that everyone and their brothers were getting some type of Doctorate of Theology (not a Ph.D.) from somewhere in South Africa. I think I looked into the degree and discovered it was basically not recognized here in the U.S. – thus, for educational purposes, it has less value than a D.Min.

    But “earning” one, which is done via distance, makes you sound intelligent.


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    I think I feel sorriest for Aimee Byrd.

    I think she may be just starting to see how even so-called “true complementarianism” betrays women.

    You know how comps will say that the problem is not with complementarianism, but with comp incompetently carried out. (No, the problem is with complementarianism itself.)

    Complementarian materials pay a lot of lip service to women being equal in value to men, but in reality, you can see by their actions they don’t really mean that.
    I think this may be slowly dawning on Ms. Byrd.

    Non-complementarians have been warning others about this for years and years, but only now are a few starting to catch on.

    I think ladies such as Ms. Byrd should take a deeper look at Christian gender egalitarianism: it’s not liberal, it’s not capitulating to secular culture or to secular feminism, as so many complementarians have been taught. That’s all propaganda used to scare Christian comp women away from seriously considering egalitarianism (or mutualist) views.

    As for Courtney Reissig. I read her page at Christianity Today a few days ago.
    It was a rather rambling, muddled piece. It was hard for me to follow all of it.

    What I did take away from it (from what I remember reading), she brought up the Tone Police card. Rather than dealing with the crux of egalitarian arguments, she dismisses their views by saying she thinks they are acting like big meanies (they’re not being “winsome” enough).

    Her real issue, though, seemed to be with other complementarian women who dare to be critical of some aspects of complementarianism.
    She seems upset they are daring to disagree with male comps who are promoting E.S.S. (or ERAs, or whatever they are calling it now).

    I’m really only aware of one comp woman speaking out against ESS, and that is Ms. Byrd (though there may have been one or two others). Reissing acts as though there is an army of 50,000 comp women speaking out against it – but there’s not.

    Reissig should not be surprised that comp women who may be in support of ESS (if such exist) are not speaking up in support of it, because she belongs to a movement that -(CLUE BAT OVER HEAD!)- discourages women’s voices and input.

    Complementarians are constantly telling women, or subtly communicating in various ways, that women are not smart enough, God- approved enough, or ‘not- whatever- enough,’ to pontificate on theological matters, and that it’s “man’s work” to do so.

    Reissig is drinking the Kool-Aid. Not just the sugar-free stuff, but the strong stuff. I kind of feel sorry for her for still drinking the Kool-Aid and not seeing how bad it is.


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    I am of the opinion that CBMW, especially men like Strachan, Grudem and Ware, are inherently threatened by women like Aimee. She is very intelligent and her writing has more internal logic than almost everything put out by today’s YRR/9Marks/Neo-Cal oligarchs leaders.


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    I often wonder about doctorates from places like South Africa or worse, the Ukraine. I know David Duke got a PHD from some university in the Ukraine…


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    Nancy2, well I never had to worry about pests so much as those darn thorns. I’m sure the milder climate of western WA had something to do with that. With their permission, we could find some pretty tasty and juicy blackberries in our neighbors’ pasture. Must have been the natural fertilizer. 😀

    Dang it, now I’m thinking of the wild huckleberries and thimbleberries…


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    Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    were they also advocating for the ordination of women?

    According to wiki the anglican church of Kenya ordains women.


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    Lydia wrote:

    She took out the part where she attended a midnight buffet with Arafat.

    That is a good thing. Because at that buffet, she and Paige ran their mouths about the missions work being done in Palestine and my wife’s cousins had to flee the country.

    Under their ministry (we’ll call them the Smiths, which is not their actual last name), the nanny to Arafat’s children had become saved. Paige and Dorothy couldn’t resist telling Arafat that there was a Christian in his own household. He figured out who it was fairly quickly, and if memory serves me well, she disappeared and the Smith’s cover was blown.

    I have so little respect for Paige and Dorothy that it probably is causing me to sin.


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    Speaking of Reissing.

    I’m pretty sure it was Reissing who wrote a pretty awful article on CT months ago (at least it struck this childless woman as being pretty awful) where she shamed women for choosing not to have children at all, or for wanting to time when they have kids (like later in life).

    I had to look it up. Reissing’s work on that is on Christianity Today under this title:

    “Have Babies, Just Not Yet” by Courtney Reissig
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2014/august/have-babies-just-not-yet.html?paging=off

    It sets my teeth on edge when Christians take their personal opinions on how they think other people should live their live (like regarding on when or if to have children)…
    And assume to see their position as being God-ordained in the Bible, and tell other Christians they too ought to make the same choices, and *shame shame on you* if you don’t agree, or don’t do what they say.

    It really grinds my gears.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    the issue was the readers. the problem lie with how inept they were with comprehension.

    The readers OR the listeners.

    They’re the problem.

    They just don’t understand.

    They failed to see the nuances.

    They missed the heart of what we’re saying.

    They were young and overzealous in their implementation.

    There was nothing wrong with our teaching.

    It’s the readers & listeners that are the problem.

    That’s always the final summation.


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    Daisy wrote:

    As for Courtney Reissig. I read her page at Christianity Today a few days ago.
    It was a rather rambling, muddled piece. It was hard for me to follow all of it.

    Bah. Isn’t Courtney a married woman with children? If she is 100%, true-blue “Complementarian”, why doesn’t she just get off of the Internet, tend to her children, and rinse the soap bubbles off of her glasses???
    She is over-stepping the Comp. boundaries, anyway. The older women are to teach the younger women, and many (most?) of us are more than a few years older than she is! Practice what you preach and get back in your place, Little Miss Courtney!
    Whew. Rant over ……. For now.


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    Burwell wrote:

    That is a good thing. Because at that buffet, she and Paige ran their mouths about the missions work being done in Palestine and my wife’s cousins had to flee the country.

    The Patterson’s need to brag to Arafat and show how they had one over him, was ever so much more important than any successful mission work someone else was doing!

    It’s just like that time in Scripture when Paul went to eat at the Emperor’s and told him all about how great the church meeting in Priscilla’s and Aquila’s house was!

    Oh.

    Wait.

    Nevermind…


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    dee wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    owen strachan states this as the reason the ridiculous soapbubble article was taken down:
    “Post offline as folks got confused over it. That’s why. Thanks!”

    I didn’t see this. Thank you.

    Translation: We are just too stupid to understand such a deep post.

    oh I think he knows we ‘understood it’ all too well and said so . . . it was an exercise in a ‘husband’ humiliating his wife, one of the destructive things a man can do in a marriage ….

    for all the male hubris displayed in the ‘soap bubble’ saga, there is NO understanding on the male end of the destruction being done to the relationship

    ‘soap bubble’ was a prime example of the abrasive callousness of the domination/submissive model in any marriage, but in Christian marriage most especially


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    Lydia wrote:

    I used to remind the SBC comp dictators that Mrs. Criswell taught a mixed SS class of over 300 that was on the radio back in the 70’s and 80’s. The size of a typical SBC church! Why was that ok? Well… err….her husband okayed it.
    Right.

    Maybe folks who believe like that aren’t aware of this in the front of their mind, but to believe it’s only okay for a woman to teach men (or mixed gender group) is to really believe at your core that there is something inherently flawed, sinful, or wrong with women, femininity, etc., which the Bible does not teach.

    The Bible says both male and female are created in God’s image, God gave dominion to both, etc.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Maybe folks who believe like that aren’t aware of this in the front of their mind, but to believe it’s only okay for a woman to teach men (or mixed gender group)

    I meant, to believe it is OK for a woman to teach mixed group ONLY IF they have some man’s permission…


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    @ Nancy2:

    Thanks, Nancy2. I appreciate you letting me know. And drinking in deeply from a conversation with Mr Coffee this morning also helped put all things in a better light. 🙂


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Courtney Reissig’s last name was formerly “Tarter” not “Tater.”

    But “Tater” was funnier. 🙂

    It reminds me of Tater Tots, and I like Tater Tots.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I meant, to believe it is OK for a woman to teach mixed group ONLY IF they have some man’s permission…

    But only the husbands, which leaves single gals out.

    I bet brad would give me ‘permission’. Wonder if that would work?


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    Daisy wrote:

    It reminds me of Tater Tots, and I like Tater Tots.

    You did see the ron white skit on that, right?

    Its definitely more fun to think of her as tater tot!


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    Courtney Reissig said that most of the women’s voices in this debate have been critical ones. It’s possible I haven’t read widely enough, but from the various places I have been reading, the same is true of most of the men’s voices as well. This isn’t men vs. women; it’s a minority group of hard core complementarians vs. the rest of the Church. I wonder if they’ll ever realize that.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Thanks, Nancy2. I appreciate you letting me know. And drinking in deeply from a conversation with Mr Coffee this morning also helped put all things in a better light.

    Good morning, Brad!
    Sometimes I say something without thinking of how it might be interpreted. Thanks for cutting me some slack.
    ; ^ )


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Deb:
    Definitely. A bad joke from a woman who was exhausted from working up blackberries half the night! I forget sometimes …….. people can’t see the twinkle of sarcasm in my eyes on line!

    I can!

    Belly laughs.


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    Velour wrote:

    I can!
    Belly laughs.

    Velour, if you and I are ever in the same place at the same time ………..
    Ouch. Trouble will ensue, if you know what I mean!


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    dee wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    She changed her bio! She took out the part where she attended a midnight buffet with Arafat.
    Snort!

    Now. i’ll have to change my bio about meeting Elvis at the 7-11.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    (Reissig said):
    “Perhaps it begins with where CBMW started in the first place—with men and women working together for the cause of Christ, unified around our shared identity as image bearers of God, both male and female.”–courtney reissig
    ++++++++++++
    (elastigirl said):
    this is, like, crazy idealism while being high.
    CBMW is utterly divisive concerning men and women.

    I agree with you.

    I just wanted to add if you want a more accurate summary by Reissig, it should read more like this (additions made by me):
    ———————
    “Perhaps it begins with where CBMW started in the first place — with married men and married women working together for the cause of Christ,
    which involves promoting and pontificating about motherhood and marriage out the ying-yang, and marginalizing anyone who doesn’t marry or have children;
    unified around our shared identity as image bearers of God, both married male and married female (who have children and become mothers),
    and where men are always in authority over women, because male hierarchy and male gender idolatry.”

    –corrected courtney reissig, to more accurately reflect what CBMW complementarianism is REALLY about


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    @ Nancy2:
    Oh, and “twinkle”!


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    Testing ………


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    @ Nancy2:
    Sugar foot! My emojis don’t show on TWW!


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    Daisy wrote:

    “Perhaps it begins with where CBMW started in the first place — with married men and married women working together for the cause of Christ”
    –corrected courtney reissig, to more accurately reflect what CBMW complementarianism is REALLY about

    Boy, does she have even more of a problem then, because they seem to lump all women together. Maybe I should become a theologian, since I’m single and shouldn’t count in that argument.

    Of course, as those said earlier, in other places in CBMW, us single women are living in sin for not getting married. Because it’d be better to marry an idiot and be in submission than be single.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    in some ways it reminds me of the movie The Giver, which i just saw for the 2nd time. everyone had a role determined for them. everything was fake. fake people.

    I’ve seen the new Superman move (Man of Steel) a few times since it’s been on cable over the last year.
    There’s a scene where Clark Ken (aka KalEl, aka Superman) meets his dad JorEl (as a hologram or whatever).

    JorEl explains on their home planet, KalEl was the first baby to be created and born the old fashioned way. All other children on their planet were created in labs and grown in gardens of whatever. They were each designed to carry out pre-determined roles: like some of the babies were designed to be plumbers when they grew up, other guys, hockey coaches, whatever.

    JorEl said he and his wife wanted KalEl/Clark to be created the “old fashioned” way, so he could choose for himself to be whatever he wanted to be, so that all possibilities would be open to him.

    A secular, Hollywood film got something right that complementarians, (who claim to believe the Bible), got wrong.


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    @ Daisy:

    Sorry for the typeos.

    Move should be “Movie” and Clark Ken should be KENT.


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    ishy wrote:

    Boy, does she have even more of a problem then, because they seem to lump all women together. Maybe I should become a theologian, since I’m single and shouldn’t count in that argument.

    Married women don’t fare any better. Except, of course, those few women who are married to very speshul men!


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    Jack wrote:

    I’ve picked up the “submissive woman” at the fundamentalist church I went to but these clowns are taking it to a very strange place. I mean “good enough for Jesus, good enough for you” as applies to women makes no sense. They know Jesus was a guy right? So if their ESS theology applies only to women then are men superior to Jesus?

    I also don’t see how it applies to unmarried women.

    Secondly, there are 3 people in the Trinity, not two, not just the Father and Jesus. I don’t see how the two people in a marriage scenario maps to 3 people in the Trinity – the Holy Spirit becomes chopped liver in their theology.

    Also, as has been brought up on this blog before by others and myself, complementarians aren’t consistent about how they depict Jesus.

    When they are teaching women, and trying to convince women that being doormats with no rights, no respect, and no authority is really awesome, great, and biblical, they tell women:
    “Look at how happy Jesus was submitting to the Father! See, being second banana is not so bad if your Lord and Savior was cool with it!”

    However, when complementarians such as Mark Driscoll step up to the podium and try to appeal to MEN, all the sudden, Jesus is not the submissive, ever loving, demure, doormat who takes orders from the Father, but –
    Jesus magically morphs into the Take Charge, behind-kicking, Kung Fu, tough Guy and Manly Man.

    Like in this clip:
    “DJesus Uncrossed”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQyH5Vj1iVY


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    Daisy wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    Courtney Reissig’s last name was formerly “Tarter” not “Tater.”
    But “Tater” was funnier.
    It reminds me of Tater Tots, and I like Tater Tots.

    I prefer hash browns, but:
    Courtney is a Complementarian. Taters grow in the ground ….. they must be completely “covered” by dirt ….. man was made from dirt. Given those facts in one summation, I thought the typo was quite appropriate ….. and funny.


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    Jeff S wrote:

    “And even if you disagree vehemently with our views, we don’t want to be labeled as heretics or deemed unfit for a teaching position”
    Doesn’t feel great, does it?

    Great point. They usually accuse those who reject complementarianism in severe terms, or attributing views to them they don’t hold.
    They like to say egalitarians don’t take the Bible seriously, or have been swayed by secular feminism, etc.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Married women don’t fare any better. Except, of course, those few women who are married to very speshul men!

    That’s what I was saying, maybe it wasn’t clear. I was saying that by her argument, being single should give women a pass to be on the same level as the married men. But we all know that’s not true.


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    Megan wrote:

    I bring this up to say that I think this is part of what’s going on in complementarian circles. CBMW isn’t sexist because they have women! who they listen to! on their editorial team. And because of this, they don’t have to take other women’s voices seriously. It also helps explain Courtney Reissig’s position: she feels heard, and she’s an insider, so the critics don’t know what they’re talking about.

    They only give the stamp of approval to women who act as echo chambers on their behalf – which is what they believe in the first place: it’s okay to ignore women, women’s opinions don’t matter.


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    Speaking of John Piper, his Twitter account posted a link to an article by Douglas Wilson (yes, THAT Douglas Wilson) which can be found on Desiring God. The article is called “LGBT Basics.” I’m sure that Piper could have found someone to express similar views, someone who is not as tainted as Douglas Wilson. But he went with Douglas Wilson. No matter what you think about LGBT issues, just the notion that you’d go to Douglas Wilson for ANYTHING says volumes.

    This is another reason why I’ll probably never darken the door of a church again.


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    ishy wrote:

    Is there an egalitarian counterpart to CBMW?

    YES! Christians for Biblical Equality, based in Minneapolis. Its website menu includes its Blog, Board of Directors, Board of Advisors, Bookstore, Conference, Membership, Statement of Faith, award-winning periodicals and academic resources.

    http://www.cbeinternational.org

    CBE holds an annual conference–one year is USA location, the next in an international location. September 14-17, 2016, CBE is in Johannesburg, South Africa in partnership with two groups:”Gender Equality Matters in Africa” and “CBE South Africa.” Conference focus/title is “Truth Be Told: Speaking Out Against Gender Based Violence.”


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    Megan wrote:

    CBMW isn’t sexist because they have women! who they listen to! on their editorial team. And because of this, they don’t have to take other women’s voices seriously.

    Alternately, you could say it’s simple tokenism…they put a few women on the team just so it doesn’t look bad. Then they proceed to do what they want.

    I want to say something regarding the numbers of women on these groups. They are generally small, but they are pointed to as if they are not. I saw a study the other day saying that people perceive something to be more female than male at the point when it gets to something like 30% female representation. I wonder if this accounts for some of the ‘churches are too girly!’ complaints we have heard from some of these guys.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Josh wrote:
    With that said, given how they keep being “misunderstood,”
    ————
    I don’t believe their being “misunderstood” is the problem! I think the problem is that they are failing to convince us to agree with them.

    It’s fairly common for complementarians to claim the person who is disagreeing with comp does not understand comp. Never mind if you’re someone (like me) who used to be one and have heard numerous pro-comp sermons, read pro-comp Christian books and articles over her life, and had parents (especially a mother) who encouraged me to think in those terms.

    I understand what comp is just fine, and I was raised under “true” comp, not comp incorrectly implemented.

    I don’t think complementarians can grasp, or want to, that people understand their position just fine but still disagree with it.


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    I saw ‘doug wilson’ and ‘lgbt’ and thought there’s no way I’m reading that!

    mirele wrote:

    This is another reason why I’ll probably never darken the door of a church again.

    I know a lot of people are opposed to this, but have you considered going to a full on liberal church?


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    Tree wrote:

    Thanks for the name correction, Brad! Typos are funny sometimes. Tater/Tarter. But I think “Tater Tot” might stick. Maybe she’ll keep considering and learning and eventually grow up into being “Spud”.

    Spud. That is funny!


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    Daisy wrote:

    It’s fairly common for complementarians to claim the person who is disagreeing with comp does not understand comp.

    Snort.
    I hereby do claim that comps disagree with egalitarianism/mutualism because they don’t understand!


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    Deb wrote:

    Here’s a post Wade Burleson wrote about Courtney Tarter (ed.) before her last name changed to Reissig.

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2008/10/my-prayer-for-miss-courtney-tarter-that.html

    Oh man, what a post. It was painful to read about Elizabeth Keckley, suffering so unjustly at the hands of a so-called minister. Ghastly.

    So, clearly, Courtney has been snookered by the ESS from way back.
    From the article:

    (2). “Instead of seeing our gender differences as mere cultural constructions we must first admit that there was something far greater going on in the Garden than we now realize, and when Creation fell, it was distorted. In creating man and woman differently, God was pointing to the beauty of the Trinitarian relationship.” Miss Courtney Tarter

    This is all heresy, based upon reading between the lines. There is “something” “going on” that no one realized… until Mr. Grudem and Mr. Ware were so kind as to let us know about it.

    I’m sorry but no. no. NO.

    1 Corinthians 4:6
    “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”


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    Lea wrote:

    I saw ‘doug wilson’ and ‘lgbt’ and thought there’s no way I’m reading that!

    My imagination on what Dougie might say is more than enough. ‘How can lgbt people possibly “conquer, colonize, and plant”?’ Uhg. : (


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I hereby do claim that comps disagree with egalitarianism/mutualism because they don’t understand!

    Sadly, this is probably true.


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    brian wrote:

    Do no harm. I find that same or even a higher commandment in the Bible, Love God and love neighbor and these commandments are one in the same. I think people should serve where their gifted if gifted to teach or preach then do it and we will all be blessed if gifted hospitality then also do that. I don’t think gender should really be a limiting factor.

    Brian, I have often wished that Christianity went by the Hippocratic oath “first, do no harm.”


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    Usual lurker here, but wanted to make two comments on this discussion…

    1) Not to make a bigger deal of it than it is, but the exchange upthread between Brad and Nancy2 was great for me to see. Speaking up when bothered by something, acting graciously toward one another, avoiding defensiveness in addressing it – just not seen that often in online discussions. I was encouraging for me to see apparently psychologically healthy adults treating each other well on the the internet!

    2) Since Courtney claims that the folks at CBMW don’t know how their work affects us, here another way that they hurt: These ideas are not only by potential abusers to justify harm, they also can damage marriages between two well-meaning Christians who take this stuff seriously. Many of their “principles” really are just stereotypes or perceived norms in their subculture. The more of these “norms” they promote, the more likely an individual or couple will fall outside at least one of them. So, what the wife is the more decisive or the more financially savvy or has the greater sex drive of the couple? What if the man is the more nuturing or the more physically attractive (no “smokin’ hot wife”)? I think that expecting people to take on “roles” that do not suit them can lead to shame and frustration in the relationship. At CBMW, what would they say of a Christian marriage in which the wife has a breadwinning corporate career and the husband is an artist and both are happy and flourishing with that arrangement? Why try to make everyone feel like they’re is only one “biblical” way to do marriage? I get fired up about this, partly because one of the low points in my own marriage came when we tried to take on “roles” that did not work for us at all.


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    Sorry for so many typos above…


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    Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    There are three simple questions that begged to be asked; I wonder why complementarians are not asked to answer these:
    1. Was the curse prescriptive or descriptive?
    2. If the curse of sin was broken through the work of Christ, why does the breaking of that curse apply only to men, and not women?
    3. Where in Scripture are you given permission to diminish the work of Christ on the cross by saying the curse is broken only for men?
    My two euros…

    All excellent questions, and as to your Question 4 (from another post),

    “Question 4: Is Christ’s work of salvation as sufficient and complete for women as it is for men?”

    Since so many complementarians teach that
    1. a husband is the “priest and king” of the home,
    2. a man will be held accountable in the afterlife by God for his wife (or her sins?),
    and that
    3. all women supposedly need a “male covering”

    I will hazard a guess that complementarians don’t think women can receive salvation by faith alone in Jesus, but must be married and submit to a husband.

    Somehow, in complementarian soteriology, a husband (and/or other men, like male elders or pastors) is a necessary ingredient in the recipe of salvation.

    Women also apparently need this male headship even after they die, according to complementarian men who promote the idea that women submit to men through all eternity, not just on earth.


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    Way off topic, but …… Aarrrggghhhhhh!
    My husband just got back to the house from picking berries. Low and behold, another one of our dog got bitten by a snake. Please pray that the snake was a copperhead and not a rattler or a cottonmouth!
    We’ll know in about 20 minutes!


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    Jeff S wrote:

    “And even if you disagree vehemently with our views, we don’t want to be labeled as heretics or deemed unfit for a teaching position”

    “If the shoe fits, wear it.”


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    ishy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Christians for Biblical Equality

    Thank you. I did a search, but all I came up with was links to CBMW. Perhaps CBE needs to work on their SEO.

    CBE received three times more contributions than CBMW did in 2014 (according to the latest data provided to the ECFA) and has 4 times the assets. (see below)

    CBMW – Revenue for 2014: $262,171

    Net Assets: $136,055

    http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=12088

    CBE – Revenue for 2014: $828,975

    Net Assets: $577,676

    http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=7313


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    @ Nancy2:

    Oh no! Praying for your poor dog!!!


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    Megan wrote:

    I bring this up to say that I think this is part of what’s going on in complementarian circles. CBMW isn’t sexist because they have women! who they listen to! on their editorial team. And because of this, they don’t have to take other women’s voices seriously. It also helps explain Courtney Reissig’s position: she feels heard, and she’s an insider, so the critics don’t know what they’re talking about.

    Good point. Isn’t this the whole idea of “tokenism”?

    I also doubt she is “heard” on any subject of significance. Possibly her input is more about how to word an article to appeal to women or such like.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Do they believe the men will praise and worship God in Heaven, and women will be there simply to “help” the men praise and worship God?

    I have no desire to go to their heaven, I’d rather go to the heaven my little dogs go to.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I can’t wrap my banged-up, damaged head around the apparent need for women to be submissive/subordinate to men in the afterlife.
    Do they believe the men will praise and worship God in Heaven, and women will be there simply to “help” the men praise and worship God?

    I think they just like the idea of being able to wipe their feet on women even after life here.

    Their views are reminisce of Mormonism, and the schools of Islam that teach young men who get killed in Jihad get 72 lady virgins (really, raisins*) in the afterlife.

    There is something very peculiar and sick about any theology that not only seeks to keep women subservient (and as sex objects) in the “here and now” but after death, as well. That is a special kind of twisted, IMO.
    ————-
    * “Quran scholar: Martyrs get raisins, not virgins”
    http://www.wnd.com/2016/05/quran-scholar-martyrs-get-raisins-not-virgins/


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    @ mirele:
    I usually try to at least occasionally expand my perspective by reading the views of people with whom I don’t agree and likely never will agree. Doug Wilson is an exception to that rule, and I’m not even ashamed to admit it, nor will I care if anyone calls me hypocritical for avoiding him. Life is too short to spend it getting angry at vile filth like that which proceeds from Doug Wilson’s mouth / keyboard.


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    dee wrote:

    Can I be frank? I think she is pretending that she doesn’t understand. It’s a typical deflection tactic. But, I could be wrong.

    That and she probably draws a not-too-shabby ‘compensation package’, but as you say, I could be wrong too.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Their views are reminisce of Mormonism

    I meant, reminiscent


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    ishy wrote:

    Is there an egalitarian counterpart to CBMW?

    There’s Christians For Biblical Equality (CBE)

    And sites like this:
    http://juniaproject.com/


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Maybe fetching coffee and donuts – and being “winsome”!

    In all seriousness, I’ve read this is a big problem in a lot of American (and probably UK and other similar places).

    I’ve read studies and articles about how often, most men in workplaces naturally assume and expect women at their jobs to do stuff like fetch coffee, plan parties, keep the staff kitchenette clean etc, even though the women have the same job titles the men do (they are not employed as maids or administrative assistants)


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    ishy wrote:

    Thank you. I did a search, but all I came up with was links to CBMW. Perhaps CBE needs to work on their SEO.

    Here’s a link to their home page:
    Christians For Biblical Equality:
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/


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    Jack wrote:

    Does my Hawaiian shirt collection make me more inferior. A non sequitur, I know but it makes as much sense as what’s described above.

    Hawaiian shirt collection? You’d be right at home with the old boyz of Calvary Chapel. I believe it was Papa Chuck who started the Hawaiian shirt craze back in his heyday.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Article on ESS controversy. Scroll down and read the comment by HEBREWSDNT, posted yesterday at 10:49.

    Here is a link to the specific post:
    https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/which-is-it/#comment-4784

    That poster says much the same thing Gram3, myself, and a few others were saying to a comp guy who posts here on occasion. You have to take the original audience and culture that Bible was written in and to into account.

    Otherwise, you end up with some very dangerous, awful doctrines (such as complementarianism).

    And as that guy’s post sort of mentions (which I have more pointedly before) comps accuse non-comps of reading the Bible through secular culture, but it’s quite the opposite.

    Comps have an anti-secular feminist agenda to push, so they use any passages at all that SEEM to permit men to “biblically” step on women to silence all women. They view the clobber verses as a way of keeping left wing, secular feminism from creeping into the church.

    It’s sad, really – the Bible does promote or endorse egalitarianism/ mutualism, but they are fighting the Bible on that.

    Here is a snippet from that guy’s post, HEBREWSDNT:

    …while I was doing my coursework, and she gave a quote from a New Testament professor she really liked that went something like this:

    “Evangelicals have a tendency to confuse the idea that the Bible was written *for* us with the idea that the Bible was written *to* us. The text was not specifically addressed to our problems, but to issues in the Ancient Near East and Greco-Roman world that are, nonetheless, still relevant to us today.
    Thus, these men who believe in the ESS have simply read these texts about the temporary economic submission of the son in the light of the battle between feminism and traditional gender roles, and voila! You have the ESS.
    It will appear “Biblical” to them, because they were interpreting scripture when they got it-even though the battle between feminism and traditional gender roles was interfering with their ability to understand the text.


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    Excellent blog at this link to Christians for Biblical Equality (CBE)by Jamin Huber in response to a recent CT article on the “doctrine” [ESS]of the Trinity supported by CBMW. “The Trinity” is the theme of this October’s meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS):

    http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/contemporary-revisions-trinitarian-theology-concise-assessment

    Here’s Jamin’s opening paragraphs of his blog/assessment:

    “As many of you are aware, a particular debate involving the doctrine of the Trinity is causing no little stir in American evangelicalism. This past Thursday (June 16, 2016) Christianity Today even felt it necessary to write a primer on the discussion.

    Since my area and career focus is on systematic theology (and gender), I have watched with particular interest but have let others (more seasoned) do the “heavy-lifting.” I also happen to be the moderator for the Evangelicals and Gender Study Group at the annual ETS [Evangelical Theological Society] meeting this October, which is themed “the Trinity.” I did not think this topic would publicly escalate so fast in the months prior to this event, but it apparently has. (So, although I won’t be speaking there, I may be wearing a flak jacket…).”

    Enjoy reading Jamin’s assessment!


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    elastigirl wrote:

    in some ways it reminds me of the movie The Giver, which i just saw for the 2nd time. everyone had a role determined for them. everything was fake. fake people.

    Good flick. I have it in my DVD collection.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Under their ministry (we’ll call them the Smiths, which is not their actual last name), the nanny to Arafat’s children had become saved. Paige and Dorothy couldn’t resist telling Arafat that there was a Christian in his own household. He figured out who it was fairly quickly, and if memory serves me well, she disappeared and the Smith’s cover was blown.

    That is awful.


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    ishy wrote:

    Boy, does she have even more of a problem then, because they seem to lump all women together. Maybe I should become a theologian, since I’m single and shouldn’t count in that argument.
    Of course, as those said earlier, in other places in CBMW, us single women are living in sin for not getting married. Because it’d be better to marry an idiot and be in submission than be single.

    I was engaged to an idiot but did the smart thing and dumped him. 🙂

    Complementarians don’t know what to do with single and childless adults, much like they don’t know what to do with the Holy Spirit in the Trinity.

    If something or someone does not fit their pre-conceived ideas, or can’t be crammed into an “authority / submit” framework, it, she, or they gets ignored.

    Which is probably why complementarians ignore singles (or try to argue or scold them into getting married, to make them fit), and why they ignore the Holy Spirit.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Do they believe the men will praise and worship God in Heaven, and women will be there simply to “help” the men praise and worship God?

    That reminds me of watching Charles Stanley on TV. When the choir sings during service, all of the men are front and center on the stage/altar area. The women are in two groups, one on each side of the men.


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    @ Nancy2:

    Oh, I like hash browns, too. I like potatoes in about any form, cooked any way. Baked, fried, whatever. 🙂


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    Lea wrote:

    I want to say something regarding the numbers of women on these groups. They are generally small, but they are pointed to as if they are not. I saw a study the other day saying that people perceive something to be more female than male at the point when it gets to something like 30% female representation. I wonder if this accounts for some of the ‘churches are too girly!’ complaints we have heard from some of these guys.

    Yes, I’ve seen the same stories or studies.

    This seems to especially hold true in movies. If women account for more than 30% of the people on screen, male viewers tend to assume that is too many.

    I think I’ve seen similar studies about women, talking, and workplaces – like if a woman only does 20% or so of the talking during a meeting (if the men actually dominate the talking), most men feel as though that 20% was 95% (much more than it was).


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    @ Deb:
    Thanks Deb. It’s been more than 45 minutes since Allie was bitten (right on the side of her face), so she will survive. I’m sure the snake was a copperhead!
    She is badly swollen, but I have given her meds, and she is resting here in the house a few feet away from me. Poor baby, she’s only 8 months old – Red Tick/Boxer mix. I hope she saw the snake and learned something!
    Lizzie was bitten Friday night. Amos was bitten last July and the snake came in the carport.
    This is WAR! ; )


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    When the choir sings during service, all of the men are front and center on the stage/altar area. The women are in two groups, one on each side of the men.

    At our church, the men are in the front and the women are in the back. Really.
    They get my vote for an all- male choir and an all-male church!


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    elastigirl wrote:

    “biblical” manhood and womanhood… i think there’s a credibility problem.

    I think that on one level they know this, and that their movement is doomed to get flushed so to speak by more and more people of faith who bought into it in good faith. And yet on another level, they’re in denial, much in the same Berlin was when the Eastern Front began to collapse in late 1944.


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    Daisy wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    Oh, I like hash browns, too. I like potatoes in about any form, cooked any way. Baked, fried, whatever.

    Me, too! Sliced and fried in a skillet; stewed, drained, and mixed with cheese sauce; mashed with gravy on top; in foil on the grill ……


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    caroline wrote:

    2) Since Courtney claims that the folks at CBMW don’t know how their work affects us, here another way that they hurt:
    These ideas are not only by potential abusers to justify harm, they also can damage marriages between two well-meaning Christians who take this stuff seriously.
    Many of their “principles” really are just stereotypes or perceived norms in their subculture.

    I think Reissig is being disingenuous.

    If she and other complementarians want to know how complementarianism has hurt women, there is plenty of testimony out there online.

    When Ruth Tucker wrote a book about how complementarian views on male headship (such as is promoted by CBMM and others) enabled her first husband to abuse her, other comps brushed that all off as her just being emotional.

    Her concerns, critiques, and experiences were written off by Tim Challies and others.

    I’ve discussed on this blog a billion times over in much older threads how complementarianism damaged me personally. I’m still dealing with ramifications of it now.
    I mention a little bit about that in a few blog posts on my blog:
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/

    The information on how complementarianism has hurt women, and how Non-Comps view the topic, is out there in spades and droves, but complementarians prefer to pretend as though it’s not.


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    @ Nancy2:

    I am sorry your dog is injured. I hope he or she is OK.


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    siteseer wrote:

    Possibly her input is more about how to word an article to appeal to women or such like.

    Yes, I suspect this is a big part of it. They want her to finesse their sexist drivel, so it doesn’t sound so obviously sexist to women.


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    Josh wrote:

    I usually try to at least occasionally expand my perspective by reading the views of people with whom I don’t agree and likely never will agree. Doug Wilson is an exception to that rule, and I’m not even ashamed to admit it,

    I think there are maybe exceptions to this. Wilson is one of those guys who, if you’re read one of his blog posts, you’ve read them all.

    I’ve probably read anywhere from six to 10 or so of them. He’s equally obnoxious in all of them. He’s extremely uncharitable to Christian women who don’t buy into comp, and he’s very nasty to Non-Christian liberal feminist women.

    I can deduce from that he doesn’t have anything nice or polite to say about LGBT people in his new post about them. It’s probably filled with many caricatures and (to what sounds like to him), witty put-downs.


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    brian wrote:

    I think people should serve where their gifted if gifted to teach or preach then do it and we will all be blessed if gifted hospitality then also do that. I don’t think gender should really be a limiting factor.

    In another lifetime and in a place where the marriage of time and space is strained almost to the point of divorce, I sojourned with a coven of forest crones who taught the same things.


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    @ Nancy2:

    Thank goodness! I'll keep praying for your furbaby.


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    Daisy wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I am sorry your dog is injured. I hope he or she is OK.

    Thanks, Daisy. It’s been over an hour now since she was bitten. She will be in some pain and have to eat soft, canned dog food for a couple of days, but I think she will be okay. She’s sleeping on a doggie bed near an air conditioner vent right now.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    That reminds me of watching Charles Stanley on TV. When the choir sings during service, all of the men are front and center on the stage/altar area. The women are in two groups, one on each side of the men.

    I’ve never noticed that before. Next time I watch his show, I’ll have to keep a look out for that.

    I don’t care so much for Stanley’s preaching now, in the last few years.

    He’s not sympathetic about mental health problems. He’s even flip flopped on that subject.

    Many years ago, when he was speaking to a group of Christian psychologists, or whatever it was, he was quoted as saying it’s insensitive and ineffective for Christians to tell Christians who have mental health problems to “pray it away” and not to see doctors or use medication.

    But then, Stanley has flipped course at some point, because the last several years, Stanley has done sermons where he chastises Christians who have depression or anxiety for using medications, and so forth.

    Stanley also has odd hang-ups about stuff I see as inconsequential, like the posture one should take when praying.

    Every fifth or so episode of his TV show, he will pressure Christians to think they have to literally get down on their knees when praying.

    He thinks kneeling while praying shows more reverence or impresses God the most, or whatever.

    I don’t have a problem with him, or anyone, who wants to kneel when they pray, but DO NOT take your personal preference and guilt trip me for not doing it, or for not even wanting to do it (which is what he does).

    I think God hears prayers OK even if you pray while standing up, seated, or laying back in bed.


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    @ Daisy:
    I agree that there is plenty of evidence, but so often those stories are dismissed with claims that the people involved are not really Christians or not really committed to “biblical marriage” or don’t take the bible seriously. The point that I’d like to make to them is that this stuff can be poison to a marriage even if both partners are wholly committed to one another and to Christ. It is no small thing to be told that if you really had a Christian marriage, such-and-such would be different in your communication style, or your finances, or your career, or your sex life. Not to mention the incredible stress that can be added to a marriage when one partner is told how the other should be or do differently.


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    @ Nancy2:

    Mrs. Muff and me have fur babies too and we know where you’re at. May Providence work her magic on yours at the behest of the Almighty.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    @ Nancy2:
    Oh, I like hash browns, too. I like potatoes in about any form, cooked any way. Baked, fried, whatever.
    Me, too! Sliced and fried in a skillet; stewed, drained, and mixed with cheese sauce; mashed with gravy on top; in foil on the grill ……

    We sound like that guy from the Forrest Gump movie who really, really liked shrimp:

    Forrest Gump – Shrimps
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhfK98f5S00


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I’ve found that those are usually the type of women who yell the loudest for wifely submission.

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Would that be because maybe they want some people (other than children) to submit to them? “If I can’t be at the top of the ladder, I’m going after the second rung!” ????

    The man wanting to rule over women was one result of the fall. Another result was the woman turning to the man- putting him in the place only God should be in.

    I believe the supporters of comp are codifying and practicing the results of the fall/curse- the male part of the curse as well as the female part- as opposed to walking in newness of life in Christ.

    As Ann Landers used to put it, the rocks in the one’s head match the holes in the other’s.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ BL:
    Mary Kassian was involved. So was Dorothy Patterson.

    They are on the seminary payroll so they supporting the party line drivel is to be expected. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you…


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    @ Nancy2:

    I’m glad to hear she will be okay 🙂


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    caroline wrote:

    I agree that there is plenty of evidence, but so often those stories are dismissed with claims that the people involved are not really Christians or not really committed to “biblical marriage” or don’t take the bible seriously. The point that I’d like to make to them is that this stuff can be poison to a marriage even if both partners are wholly committed to one another and to Christ. It is no small thing to be told that if you really had a Christian marriage, such-and-such would be different in your communication style, or your finances, or your career, or your sex life. Not to mention the incredible stress that can be added to a marriage when one partner is told how the other should be or do differently.

    This is so true!


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    @ Nancy2:
    Thoughts for your dog Nancy. Love from mine to yours.


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    siteseer wrote:

    The man wanting to rule over women was one result of the fall. Another result was the woman turning to the man- putting him in the place only God should be in.
    I believe the supporters of comp are codifying and practicing the results of the fall/curse- the male part of the curse as well as the female part- as opposed to walking in newness of life in Christ.

    That’s exactly what I think, too.


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    Daisy wrote:

    DO NOT take your personal preference and guilt trip me for not doing it, or for not even wanting to do it (which is what he does).

    I absolutely agree, Daisy. The Bible leaves so much open to personal convictions. “Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” It’s okay for one person’s walk with Christ to play out differently than another believer’s; they are two different persons with two different temperaments, environments, experiences and ways of thinking. The error comes in when they try to make their personal perspective on a level with the truths that are defined in the scriptures.

    A funny thought is that if all preachers left off preaching about their own personal convictions, it would pretty much silence a lot of them right there! lol


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    Josh wrote:

    Doug Wilson is an exception to that rule, and I’m not even ashamed to admit it, nor will I care if anyone calls me hypocritical for avoiding him. Life is too short to spend it getting angry at vile filth like that which proceeds from Doug Wilson’s mouth / keyboard

    Well said. Have you read “The Truth About Moscow” blog? It is a great source of DW accountability.

    http://moscowid.net/


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    @ Patty in Massachusetts:
    Sure but it wasn’t presented so formal but as full co heirs in all spiritual gifts.


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    @ Muff Potter:
    @ Beakerj:
    Thank you!

    Thanks to all of you for the well wishes and prayers for Alligator Allie!
    I just checked on her. She has moved into the spare bedroom where it is quiet, dim, and cool. She is resting.

    Once I knew Allie would be okay, I realized that all of this Tater talk had made me hungry. So, I put a skillet of taters on to fry!

    Hey, could some of y’all do me a big favor? Contact the guys at CMBW, et al, and tell them to get their manly bee-hinds down here and help me get these blasted snakes under control! (Girly giggles here!)


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    @ Daisy:
    The assertion by the radical feminist Koranic scholar that the word means “raisins” finds its origins in the works of Christoph Luxenberg and of Alphonse Mingana before him who claimed that the Quran was not written in Arabic but in Syriac. Their views have been discredited.

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/vowel.html


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    Daisy wrote:

    Here is a snippet from that guy’s post, HEBREWSDNT:

    …while I was doing my coursework, and she gave a quote from a New Testament professor she really liked that went something like this:

    “Evangelicals have a tendency to confuse the idea that the Bible was written *for* us with the idea that the Bible was written *to* us. The text was not specifically addressed to our problems, but to issues in the Ancient Near East and Greco-Roman world that are, nonetheless, still relevant to us today.
    Thus, these men who believe in the ESS have simply read these texts about the temporary economic submission of the son in the light of the battle between feminism and traditional gender roles, and voila! You have the ESS.
    It will appear “Biblical” to them, because they were interpreting scripture when they got it-even though the battle between feminism and traditional gender roles was interfering with their ability to understand the text.

    What an excellent post.

    The thing that impresses me is that so much error is the result of not trusting God and letting him be God. Worry, fear, catastrophizing… the idea that if “we” don’t “do” something, God’s plan will come to naught… instead of just teaching the scriptures and letting people apply them to their own lives. A spirit of control reigns, as if God needs these people to help him be God. And all they do is make a mess of things, corrupting the word of God to fit their current agenda. It really gets confusing then, when the perpetrators say they believe in the sovereignty of God! Their actions show that they do not. Thousands of years of history have not convinced them that God prevails through culture and change.


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    Burwell wrote:

    I am of the opinion that CBMW, especially men like Strachan, Grudem and Ware, are inherently threatened by women like Aimee. She is very intelligent and her writing has more internal logic than almost everything put out by today’s YRR/9Marks/Neo-Cal oligarchs leaders.

    I think you are exactly right.


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    NJ wrote:

    Dang it, now I’m thinking of the wild huckleberries

    Love Love Love Hucleberries!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    Dang it, now I’m thinking of the wild huckleberries

    Love Love Love Hucleberries!

    Huckleberries…


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    Another good comp-refuting resource:
    Recommended article by Baptist pastor Wade Burleson, The Wartburg Watch’s EPastor on Sundays, on the whole comp doctrine/patriarchy and the Eternal Subordination of the Son:
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html
    “Here’s the catch. Southern Baptist leaders have made the tragic error of believing that a husband should rule and a wife should be submissive because the Bible demands it. Truth be known, the Bible calls any desire to control and dominate–be it the husband or the wife– “the curse.” The divorce rate increases when Southern Baptists call “the norm” what the Bible calls “the curse.” When the first man (Adam) sought to rule over the first woman (Eve), Adam was manifesting a curse, not meeting a commandment (Genesis 3:16).
    Jesus came to reverse the curse. Redemption causes curse-filled people to become grace-filled people. Those who seek to rule over others by exerting authority, when they come to see what Jesus says about life, will turn loose of trying to control other people and will only seek to love and serve, NEVER exerting any alleged authority. Again, Jesus said that “the Gentiles lord over others” and “exert authority,” but “it shall not be this way among you” (Matthew 20:24-26).
    Southern Baptist Convention leaders have wrongly pushed for men to lord their authority over their wives, and called on wives to submit to the authority of their husbands because of a belief in and promotion of “the eternal subordination of the Son.” I’ve written about this doctrinal problem among Southern Baptists for years, but I recently came across a brilliant article by Dr. Keith Johnson (Ph.D. Duke), the director of theological development for Campus Crusade for Christ. Johnson’s article is called Trinitarian Agency and the Eternal Subordination of the Son: An Augustinian Perspective.”
    Dr. Keith Johnson’s article:
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/journal-issues/36.1/Themelios36.1.pdf#page=9


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    In both places I lived during my childhood, there was a big, old stump in the yard with a sizeable huckleberry bush growing out of the top. My mom would let me climb up there with a large bowl and pick all the pink huckleberries I wanted. I still miss their unique taste, but sometimes they end up in mom’s multi-berry jams, which she sends to us.


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    I’ve said this before but the CBMW is just completely whacked out and run by men who seem really insecure and overcompensating.

    Outside of white collar professions, men have a substantial advantage over women in getting good jobs. Most blue collar jobs that pay well require physical strength that women simply don’t have. This builds in a natural advantage in favor of men. Also, hormones and brain chemistry naturally make the man more dominant and the woman more compliant. This is just biological reality.

    It’s also part of the Adamic Curse which is a CURSE. Men need to be taught to recognize the predisposition to be insensitive and domineering toward women, and mitigate that. The CBMW spins it around and makes the Curse a good thing.

    But more than that, the idea that a man is in anyway responsible for the faith or behavior of his wife is to put him in an unbelievable slavery if he takes the command seriously. It’s textbook codependency, trying to manipulate another adult into being good. It’s part of why I suspect a lot of these men possibly had domineering mothers or were parentalized by their mother. They seem to really believe that managing their wives’ emotions and behavior is their biggest job in life.

    And… that is why they hate secular psychology. A good counselor would immediately call them out for being codependent and not really a man’s man.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    owen strachan states this as the reason the ridiculous soapbubble article was taken down:
    “Post offline as folks got confused over it. That’s why. Thanks!”

    https://twitter.com/ostrachan/status/747575472553234432

    so let me get this straight:
    grant castleberry says soapbubble article was taken down because it was unbiblical
    aimee byrd explains that owen strachan refused to take it down because, as it turns out, it was biblical
    then owen strachan explains it was taken down because readers were unable to think clearly.
    the issue was the readers. the problem lie with how inept they were with comprehension.
    CBMW can’t figure out what’s biblical and what isn’t, owen strachan and co-hort grant castleberry contradict each other, so let’s just put the blame on the readers and wash our hands of it. see how easy that was?
    that way owen doesn’t have to recant that he embarrassingly affirms control-freakery-abusiveness as headship because it’s biblical. he doesn’t have to say that he was wrong, grant was right. owen wins!
    what flailing idiots…

    Mansplaining. That’s what we need per Owen The Trinitarian Heretic who can’t get a real job and works for his heretic father in law’s business CBMW.


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    Daisy wrote:

    It reminds me of Tater Tots, and I like Tater Tots.

    Speaking of patriarchy and Tater Tots, the Duggars almost ruined Tater Tots for me…But I actually like the Crispy Crowns better. More crunchy surface area for ketchup.


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    @ Burwell:
    I don’t follow that blog regularly, but I’m aware of it and am thankful that it exists (though I could also say that I’m sad that it has to).

    @ Lowlandseer:
    Finding this out, I’m disappointed, but I’m still going to laugh at Robin Williams’ bit on Jihad every time I hear it. It’s just too funny (albeit highly NSFW).


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    Daisy wrote:

    plan parties

    Did you ever watch the office? One their running skits was the party planning committee.

    I don’t like doing this sort of thing and only do it when necessary (baby shower/retirement of close coworkers) but what I really hate is organizing lunches! Such a pain dealing with orders and money.

    And here is where I put in a plug for Jason’s deli because we learned that you can organize a meal online, send the link to everyone coming, and they can go in and order the food and even pay! Somebody at Jason’s deli gets this and we have not done anything else since we found out.


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    NJ wrote:

    it’s a minority group of hard core complementarians vs. the rest of the Church. I wonder if they’ll ever realize that.

    They believe they are the Faithful Remnant.


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    @ Daisy:

    Oh! one more thought on the parties thing! I think some of it women bring on themselves – when I was 22 or so I worked in an office with mostly 20something guys and 2 or 3 women and we NEVER had birthday cake or anything like that. Just beer and a card, which the guys generally took care of.

    Then we got one or two more women and all of a sudden we had to get a birthday cake every month or something!


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    @ Nancy2:
    Poor fur baby. I am glad she will be OK.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I don’t see how the two people in a marriage scenario maps to 3 people in the Trinity – the Holy Spirit becomes chopped liver in their theology.

    I don’t think the ESS people were finished with the Trinity … so the Holy Spirit was likely ‘next’ to be enlisted in some strange morphed way into their agenda …. did the ‘pushback’ from other Calvinists who reject ESS slow them down? perhaps, but these folks have likely gone beyond the point where for them NOTHING is sacred in the pursuit of their agenda …. look at the young pastor’s ‘cheap Walmart juice and crackers, take ’em on the way out, if you want’ act …. no concept of the sacred …. EXCEPT in one area: the Rise of the Dominant Males, new idols for a new cult

    Even Christ the Lord was cannon fodder for these ESS guyz.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    She is badly swollen, but I have given her meds, and she is resting here in the house a few feet away from me. Poor baby, she’s only 8 months old

    Oh my goodness! Poor little thing. Can you put an ice pack on the swelling? I’m not a vet, but ice and swelling are a good match. Gee, if I was in your neck of the woods, I’d get a gun, too.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I think that on one level they know this, and that their movement is doomed to get flushed so to speak by more and more people of faith who bought into it in good faith.

    At my deepest, I was a “thin complementarian” but now that I have had too many doses of CBMW’s toxic theology, I am really fighting mad about the duplicity and heresy. Yes, I’m not afraid to use heresy because they are preaching another gospel. They are heretics who say that the Gospel has Female Subordination at its core and that we cannot understand the Gospel without their eisegetical machinations. Their tricks have been exposed, and the act is probably not going to sell as many tickets in the future. And meanwhile there are more and more people like me who are ashamed and furious that we allowed ourselves to buy into any form of this.

    These are men and a few women who are willing to sacrifice the nature of the Eternal Son on the altar of their power religion. And, yes, I do know that they deny that they are impinging on the nature of the Eternal Son. They say a lot of things that just are not so.


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    siteseer wrote:

    The man wanting to rule over women was one result of the fall. Another result was the woman turning to the man- putting him in the place only God should be in.

    I believe the supporters of comp are codifying and practicing the results of the fall/curse- the male part of the curse as well as the female part- as opposed to walking in newness of life in Christ.

    Exactly. They miss the Good News that God has reconciled male to female. We no longer need to live at enmity. Some people just cannot stand peace and want to stir up trouble between people while others want to play power games with other people. Again, I say this is Cluster B theology, and I think there is some real pathology behind it. At the very least, it is driven by fear.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:

    When the choir sings during service, all of the men are front and center on the stage/altar area. The women are in two groups, one on each side of the men.

    At our church, the men are in the front and the women are in the back. Really.
    They get my vote for an all- male choir and an all-male church!

    Crazy!! Most normal choirs are arranged by some combination of heights and singing voices (altos, tenors sopranos together) right?

    Mine has the choir in the back because it’s about worshiping God not performance.


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    Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    There are three simple questions that begged to be asked; I wonder why complementarians are not asked to answer these:

    1. Was the curse prescriptive or descriptive?
    2. If the curse of sin was broken through the work of Christ, why does the breaking of that curse apply only to men, and not women?
    3. Where in Scripture are you given permission to diminish the work of Christ on the cross by saying the curse is broken only for men?

    My two euros…

    Excellent points.

    In their Comp logic Jesus died for Adam’s sins but not Eve’s therefore Eve is greater than Jesus?


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    That reminds me of watching Charles Stanley on TV. When the choir sings during service, all of the men are front and center on the stage/altar area. The women are in two groups, one on each side of the men.

    I don’t know that I would read too much into this. My secular classical choir uses the same arrangement. The reason they do is that there are a lot less men and the sound doesn’t balance otherwise.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    They say a lot of things that just are not so.

    Makes me think of Gershwin’s opera Porgy and Bess and the lilting ditty sung by Sportin’ Life:
    It Ain’t Necessarily So


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    I will apologize from the outset to those who disagree for my “strong language”. The Eternal Subordination of Women comes from a most infantile understanding of the Trinity and Heaven. We should expect better from the people led by the man CJM calls the smartest man he knows and all the PhD’s.

    The assumption is that there is gender in heaven. That gender is more than a human expression for biological purposes. How can women be truly formed in God’s image if women are eternally women and God is eternally male?

    This clinging to gender flies in the face of Jesus’ teaching about gender when asked about marriage and divorce in heaven. It flies in the face of what Paul wrote about gender in heaven.

    It infuriates me that the same people who complained about all the liberals who didn’t believe the Bible, destroyed the lives and careers of good, honest, thoughtful folks in the name of Biblical inerrancy are now teaching one of the basest forms of heresy in ESS to justify their hatred of women who are smart, capable, and better gifted than they by God.

    I am jumping off my soap box now. Hope I don’t break my neck since it is so high.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    They miss the Good News that God has reconciled male to female.

    The teaching of the ‘domination/submissive’ thing as ‘God’s will’ is probably one of the greatest abuses of sacred Scripture in the sense that a group of men have announced a part of a CONSEQUENCE of sin to be a part of the answer to sin, instead of the truth that Our Lord is the only answer ….

    I just don’t get it, how they got away with it for this long. ?

    There is a portion of LOTR given at the start of this post, where the lady Eowyn, who is not afraid of pain or suffering, tells what she IS afraid of:

    “What do you fear, lady?” [Aragorn] asked.
    “A cage,” [Éowyn] said. “To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

    We see in her reply that she is speaking about a kind of death of the spirit, a rejection of life as it was meant to be celebrated, a hellish burial before death …. which is what SIN does to us, and when you look at the DISGUSTING treatment of women in patriarchal cults, of course there was no room IN patriarchy for Our Lord as the One Who reconciles us not only to God, but to one another.

    The attacks on Our Lord were seen as necessary for the complete vindication of the domination of males, as THE main tenet of the new cult. That is how I see it.


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    I am jumping off my soap box now. Hope I don’t break my neck since it is so high.

    I’d say you were standing on some pretty level ground, there.


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    Velour wrote:

    In their Comp logic Jesus died for Adam’s sins but not Eve’s therefore Eve is greater than Jesus?

    No, it was Jesus’s TESTOSTERONE that killed Satan! Which is why he’s scared of men? Or something like that.

    Girl testosterone doesn’t count, because reasons.


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    It infuriates me that the same people who complained about all the liberals who didn’t believe the Bible, destroyed the lives and careers of good, honest, thoughtful folks in the name of Biblical inerrancy are now teaching one of the basest forms of heresy in ESS to justify their hatred of women who are smart, capable, and better gifted than they by God.

    BAM.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    And meanwhile there are more and more people like me who are ashamed and furious that we allowed ourselves to buy into any form of this.

    Yes! But I worry that for everyone who wakes up and “gets it”, there are too many others who are still being beaten down by all of this.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    I am jumping off my soap box now. Hope I don’t break my neck since it is so high.

    I’d say you were standing on some pretty level ground, there.

    ‘I am WOMAN, hear me roar”

    for the sake of those men’s souls who are mis-treating their wives (soap-bubble humiliation et al),
    it would be a work of mercy for women to take responsibility to tell these men that ‘the emperor has no clothes’ ….. they are men, human persons, who see also ‘as through a glass darkly’ and whose only hope is Our Lord who leads us into the light.

    These men have injured themselves in the process of attempting to be gods. And what they have attempted to do to women is ‘not of Christ’, nor could it ever be. Let women speak to the truth of this, for the sake of the men who are in over their heads.

    Sojourner Truth, the great former slave woman who advocated for women’s rights, said:
    “The womens is coming up and they bringin the mens with them.”
    This patriarchy thing needs for the women to take the reins for the sake of the men who are drowning in their fake hubris and their illusions of a god-like superiority demanding obedience and ‘submission’.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    She took out the part where she attended a midnight buffet with Arafat.
    That is a good thing. Because at that buffet, she and Paige ran their mouths about the missions work being done in Palestine and my wife’s cousins had to flee the country.
    Under their ministry (we’ll call them the Smiths, which is not their actual last name), the nanny to Arafat’s children had become saved. Paige and Dorothy couldn’t resist telling Arafat that there was a Christian in his own household. He figured out who it was fairly quickly, and if memory serves me well, she disappeared and the Smith’s cover was blown.

    How sacrificial of them. …….. They put others in danger for the sake of their own personal, cushy glory.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    How sacrificial of them. …….. They put others in danger for the sake of their own personal, cushy glory.

    No one in the SBC has ever held Paige accountable. Why?


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    Christiane wrote:

    These men have injured themselves in the process of attempting to be gods. And what they have attempted to do to women is ‘not of Christ’, nor could it ever be. Let women speak to the truth of this, for the sake of the men who are in over their heads.

    Sadly, they believe they are gods and do not expect to be questioned.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    gain, I say this is Cluster B theology, and I think there is some real pathology behind it. At the very least, it is driven by fear.

    YES. “Cluster B theology” is exactly what it is. It’s tailored to Narcissistic men and Borderline women.


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    Lea wrote:

    It infuriates me that the same people who complained about all the liberals who didn’t believe the Bible, destroyed the lives and careers of good, honest, thoughtful folks in the name of Biblical inerrancy are now teaching one of the basest forms of heresy in ESS to justify their hatred of women who are smart, capable, and better gifted than they by God.

    Yes, these are the same people.


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    mot wrote:

    No one in the SBC has ever held Paige accountable. Why?

    Why they or any of the other leaders we often discuss here are still in positions of authority is a mystery to my.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Why they or any of the other leaders we often discuss here are still in positions of authority is a mystery to my.

    I they “liberals” had conducted themselves the was Paige and many of the other takeover crowd the FUNDAMENTALIST would have tried to burn them at the stake.


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    If the “liberals” had conducted themselves the was Paige and many of the other takeover crowd the FUNDAMENTALIST would have tried to burn them at the stake..


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    If I were to kneel, the paramedics would have to be called to help me rise!


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    mot wrote:

    No one in the SBC has ever held Paige accountable. Why?

    Because he was a useful ……. something???


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Some people just cannot stand peace and want to stir up trouble between people while others want to play power games with other people. Again, I say this is Cluster B theology, and I think there is some real pathology behind it. At the very least, it is driven by fear.

    When they get into their beliefs about the care of infants and children, the cluster B really gets obvious.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    mot wrote:

    No one in the SBC has ever held Paige accountable. Why?

    Because he was a useful ……. something???


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    Not sure if any of you folks watched the “Fire by Nite” videos back in the 80’s but whenever I hear of women who support the comp teachings, I always think of the wife of “brother Peter Brothers” in this skit-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnlK2s08A-w&t=40m9s
    “Whatever my husband says is right” lol


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    R2 wrote:

    YES. “Cluster B theology” is exactly what it is. It’s tailored to Narcissistic men and Borderline women.

    I think that is the pattern that is being held up as ideal, and that is pathology. If so, and to the extent that this is so and to whomever it applies, I mean actual personality disorders, there is no use demanding that these people change. Which presents another aspect of the situation to be dealt with.


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    mot wrote:

    Same thing with the 2000 BF&M. I believe there were 2 women on this committee.

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Mrs. Paige Patterson and Mrs. Al Mohler?

    No, those two were on a 1998 committee that inserted a section on “The Family” to the 1963BFM.

    Dorothy Patterson’s friend Mrs. O. S. Hawkins (‘Susie’) and twentysomething protege Miss Heather King stood in as the two gals on the 2000BFM committee:

    http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfmcommittee.asp


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    Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    mot wrote:

    No one in the SBC has ever held Paige accountable. Why?

    Because he was a useful ……. something???

    When the Pattersons have retired to emeritus status, and everyone has returned to some sense of doing what is appropriate, maybe there will come a consensus of the faithful to remove the stained-glass tribute to the Pattersons, which Paige ordered installed,
    and in its place, put up a nice remembrance of Lottie Moon or, if they want to celebrate someone especially beloved who taught at the seminary, a nice tribute to Dr. Sheri Klouda, the beloved professor who taught so many SWBTS students Hebrew, and whose career was martyred at SWBTS, and whose own blood was sold to pay for her sick husband’s care.

    Impossible? In the Kingdom of Our Lord, no.

    Maybe someday, when people have sojourned a bit further down the road.


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    Can I have a reference to the term ‘Cluster B Theology’ please. The allusions to it sound ominous.


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    @ Christiane:
    I think it refers to Cluster B personality disorders (narcissistic, histrionic, borderline, antisocial). As in, this theology would only work for people with these disorders.


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    Anonymous wrote:

    Anyone who has been at the manse on campus and seen Dorothy and Paige in action knows who the boss is.

    Well, someone needs to “complement” Paige closely these days before he shoots his foot off with one of his big game rifles!


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    Max wrote:

    Well, someone needs to “complement” Paige closely these days before he shoots his foot off with one of his big game rifles!

    Paige seems to be invisible in the SBC world. With his big ego this has to chafe him.


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    Max wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    Anyone who has been at the manse on campus and seen Dorothy and Paige in action knows who the boss is.
    Well, someone needs to “complement” Paige closely these days before he shoots his foot off with one of his big game rifles!

    His office at SEBTS before he moved over scared the living daylights out of me. I think it’s one reason I’m now a vegetarian.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:
    I am jumping off my soap box now. Hope I don’t break my neck since it is so high.
    I’d say you were standing on some pretty level ground, there.

    Amen.

    Kimberly, do we call that a “Soap Bubble Submission” Box? Next year during the annual Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood conference, my fellow TWW troublemaker Nancy2
    and I will be hosting an alternative, competing conference, a para-church organization
    of Pound Sand Ministries (TM) founded right here on TWW.

    No, you won’t be getting a bag full of free submission books. But we will be having gun classes led by that spitfire Nancy2 and we will shoot down soap bubbles. Attendees will also be issued the “Down with Patriarchy is my Cardio” tshirt and matching, subversive yoga pants (which really makes the people at CBMW bothered). Nancy2 will have to decide if we will be printing these in a camo background.

    We will also have a “Soap Bubble Submission” t-shirt for Day 2 of the event, with of course the bubbles being blasted to smithereens.

    Sincerely,

    Velour, Vice-President of Marketing and Online Retail
    for Pound Sand Ministries (TM) and its para-church organizations


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    Lea wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    In their Comp logic Jesus died for Adam’s sins but not Eve’s therefore Eve is greater than Jesus?
    No, it was Jesus’s TESTOSTERONE that killed Satan! Which is why he’s scared of men? Or something like that.
    Girl testosterone doesn’t count, because reasons.

    Those Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood guys have really “lost it”. At their recent conference a man (egal/scientist) tweeted to them that men have estrogen and women have testosterone. Radio silence from Owen & Company at CBMW. (They blocked me and others a long time ago for having the temerity to ask them any questions.)


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    mot wrote:

    Paige seems to be invisible in the SBC world. With his big ego this has to chafe him.

    Agreed. He was on top of the SBC pyramid during and shortly after the Conservative Resurgence. Once the Calvinist Resurgence got the spotlight, he faded into the background. He’s done, but not quit yet.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Sojourner Truth, the great former slave woman who advocated for women’s rights, said:
    “The womens is coming up and they bringin the mens with them.”
    This patriarchy thing needs for the women to take the reins for the sake of the men who are drowning in their fake hubris and their illusions of a god-like superiority demanding obedience and ‘submission’.

    I was just thinking of Sojourner Truth last night. That Jesus birth had nothing to do with man and was between a woman and God.

    “How came Jesus into the world? Through God who created him and woman who bore him. Man, where is your part? But the women are coming up blessed by God and few of the men are coming up with them. But man is in a tight place, the poor slave is on him, woman is coming on him, and he is surely between a hawk an’ a buzzard.” –Sojourner Truth, addressing the 1851 Ohio Women’s Convention, as recorded by Marius Robinson, secretary


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    Jack wrote:

    Does my Hawaiian shirt collection make me more inferior.

    Jack, your attire will be fine. If you need to learn how to hula, I can loan you a copy of the Dennis the Menance the comic book, which taught me the steps in how to hula when I was a lass.


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    Jerome wrote:

    No, those two were on a 1998 committee that inserted a section on “The Family” to the 1963BFM.

    Oops.
    I wonder if,there is any real distinction between them, though?


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    caroline wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    I think it refers to Cluster B personality disorders (narcissistic, histrionic, borderline, antisocial). As in, this theology would only work for people with these disorders.

    What I had in mind is people who think this theology is a good thing. Cluster B is characterized, among other things, by distorted thinking patterns and a lack of empathy and mind games. And appearances. Above all, appearances. Someone would have to have Cluster B traits, IMO, to propagate the Fall and call it God’s Good and Beautiful Design.


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    Max wrote:

    Agreed. He was on top of the SBC pyramid during and shortly after the Conservative Resurgence. Once the Calvinist Resurgence got the spotlight, he faded into the background. He’s done, but not quit yet.

    Why does he not just go ahead and retire?


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    BL wrote:

    Were there any women in the discussion when the CBMW were laying their foundation of absolute truth on ‘complementarianism’?

    Deb wrote:

    Mary Kassian was involved. So was Dorothy Patterson.

    http://swbts.edu/news/releases/southwestern-inaugurates-installs-first-ever-chair-women%E2%80%99s-studies/

    “Patterson was a member of the founding group of the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (she was the only woman in the founding group)”

    An article at the CBMW website contradicts this claim, citing Susan Foh as a founding mother as well:

    http://cbmw.org/about/history/

    “CBMW has been in operation since 1987, when a meeting in Dallas, Texas, brought together a number of evangelical leaders and scholars, including John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Wayne House, Dorothy Patterson, James Borland, Susan Foh, and Ken Sarles.”

    Has anyone heard from Susan Foh recently? Is there a reason Dorothy Patterson and SWBTS would want to ‘disappear’ her from complementarianism’s history?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    At our church, the men are in the front and the women are in the back. Really.

    That’s just tacky. Didn’t Mary sit at Jesus’s feet and not in the back?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    so let me get this straight:
    grant castleberry says soapbubble article was taken down because it was unbiblical
    aimee byrd explains that owen strachan refused to take it down because, as it turns out, it was biblical
    then owen strachan explains it was taken down because readers were unable to think clearly.
    the issue was the readers. the problem lie with how inept they were with comprehension.
    CBMW can’t figure out what’s biblical and what isn’t, owen strachan and co-hort grant castleberry contradict each other, so let’s just put the blame on the readers and wash our hands of it. see how easy that was?
    that way owen doesn’t have to recant that he embarrassingly affirms control-freakery-abusiveness as headship because it’s biblical. he doesn’t have to say that he was wrong, grant was right. owen wins!
    what flailing idiots.
    courtney reissig, you defer to these flounderers on purpose?? I assume, then, that this is a laudable example of biblical womanhood.

    Several years ago, the Council for Biblical Wackiness had an article on their site on how women shouldn’t participate in the Olympics. A year or so after that the US women won the World Cup and Christian Brandi Chastain was interview in by several outlets and talked about her faith. CBMW must have had a tizzy. Oh, and that article disappeared.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I wonder if,there is any real distinction between them, though?

    Right, the 1998 ‘The Family’ addendum to the 1963BFM could be considered a trial run.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Someone would have to have Cluster B traits, IMO, to propagate the Fall and call it God’s Good and Beautiful Design.

    Yes, I can see this.
    I have read that certain personalities gravitate towards situations where they receive affirmation and gratification of their own narcissistic needs.

    No doubt the CBMW group is like-minded and share personality traits where a healthy moral conscience doesn’t get in the way of their agenda;
    OR they have the ability to ‘turn their eyes away’ from the damage they have done.

    Some pretty heavy compartmentalization and rationalization is going on in patriarchy, for any of these people who do see themselves as ‘Christian’. I fear for those who are victims of the ones who coldly and with no conscience at all will do anything to maintain power and control over others. The lack of empathy in such cases is a sure sign of personality disorder, yes.

    A question: is there a way to save the perpetrators out of their own darkness, and thereby bring help to those who are trapped in the patriarchal system as victims?
    Is a part of the answer to examine the perpetrators as people who are also trapped in the web they have spun for their victims?
    Is a saying: hurting people hurt people.

    There is some movement in the Church towards less judgment and more perception of people who harm others as very troubled people themselves, and this is not to excuse the harm done, and not to try to care for and protect victims;
    but more of an awareness that those inflicting pain on others are themselves troubled souls acting out their pain. That would explain the theory of the ‘theology’ of such neo-Cals resulting from personality disorders or aberrant negative traits, yes.
    Such people are not going to listen to reason. They are under the control of that which they themselves have little or no understanding.


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    mot wrote:

    Why does he not just go ahead and retire?

    Mohler hasn’t had time yet to maneuver a New Calvinist into his position.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    “The Giver” (book & film) — (dystopia, highly controlled society because of fear, fear of the unpredictable & uncontrollable & of anything going wrong, only perfection is tolerated, extreme censoring, everything and everyone’s lives are monitored and planned by the few in power, words and concepts and values redefined by those in power, no freedom of choice on anything….)

    actually, for full diclosure, as i watched the movie (really enjoying it), i was thinking to myself, “blimey…. this is christian culture…. this is why everything in my being resists against the notion of attending church of any kind”.

    but not having had a chance to analyze my thoughts & feelings, i wonder if i’m off-base on that. even partially. anyone?


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    @ Gram3:
    Thanks for clarifying. I can see narcissistic traits in some of these guys, but I agree with you that a general lack of empathy seems to characterize the entire movement. I still have a hard time understanding the motivations of the women who tolerate it or, like Courtney Reissig, promote it.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    but not having had a chance to analyze my thoughts & feelings, i wonder if i’m off-base on that. even partially. anyone?

    I think you are very tuned in to the wonder of being ABLE to ‘choose life’ …
    Determinists can’t fathom allowing that we have the power to choose, given to us from God Himself, and that this power is evidence that we are made in the image of God and are not robotic victims of some behind the scenes God of Wrath who merely pulls our strings and has pre-planned our eternal fate before we were brought into this life

    Maybe what you want to ‘not set foot in’ anymore is any reminder that we are ‘less than’ and unworthy of the dignity of the human person made in God’s image.
    If that is true, I don’t blame you at all. Those kinds of controlling, condemning environments say little of Christ anyway.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Determinists can’t fathom allowing that we have the power to choose, given to us from God Himself, and that this power is evidence that we are made in the image of God and are not robotic victims of some behind the scenes God of Wrath who merely pulls our strings and has pre-planned our eternal fate before we were brought into this life

    Most have made God in their image, and not the other way around.


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    caroline wrote:

    I still have a hard time understanding the motivations of the women who tolerate it

    I think that sooner or later, New Calvinist women will rise up en masse and declare “Wait just a darn minute here!” They will then start dragging their sorry husbands/boy friends out of the mess. Yep, the ESS false teaching and its extension to subordinating women could prove to be the Achilles heel of the reformed movement.


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    caroline wrote:

    I still have a hard time understanding the motivations of the women who tolerate it or, like Courtney Reissig, promote it.

    Stockholm Syndrome?


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    At our church, the men are in the front and the women are in the back. Really.

    Good Lord, Nancy2! You might as well just stay home and shoot snakes!

    P.S. hope your dog is doing OK.


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    Jerome wrote:

    Has anyone heard from Susan Foh recently? Is there a reason Dorothy Patterson and SWBTS would want to ‘disappear’ her from complementarianism’s history?

    I have wondered about that. She is the one who came up with the interpretation of Genesis 3:16 that women desire to usurp their husband’s authority. For those of you younger than 50, that has not always been the interpretation. Her novel interpretation came about at about the same time as George Knight III’s novel idea of roles within the Trinity and also at about the same time as Grudem and Piper were launching their careers. The rest is CBMW history.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    “biblical” manhood and womanhood… i think there’s a credibility problem.

    Oh my gosh, that should be a bumper sticker or something. There are few things that set my teeth on edge like slightly undereducated arrogant boys like Strachan proclaiming to have any kind of insight into manhood.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    Perhaps it begins with where CBMW started in the first place—with men and women working together for the cause of Christ,

    Evangelical word salad alert!!!


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Oh my gosh, that should be a bumper sticker or something. There are few things that set my teeth on edge like slightly undereducated arrogant boys like Strachan proclaiming to have any kind of insight into manhood.

    Those boys are clueless and have nothing to teach anyone.


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    Deb Willi wrote:

    I also happen to be the moderator for the Evangelicals and Gender Study Group at the annual ETS [Evangelical Theological Society] meeting this October, which is themed “the Trinity.” I did not think this topic would publicly escalate so fast in the months prior to this event, but it apparently has.

    I hope the “real” theologians who travel to that meeting will call the CBMW folks into account for their teaching. Right now, only a handful of folks in the blogosphere appear to be challenging this abuse of Scripture. It would seem to me that an “Open Letter” by prominent, reputable theologians should be sent to CBMW and published in the religious press to rebuke CBMW and inform Christians of this error.


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    @ Daisy:
    Oh my gosh, that was so terribly awful. What a horrible, horrible article. And you’re right, absolutely callous toward those who aren’t just like her. Sad…and a little pathetic.


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    caroline wrote:

    I still have a hard time understanding the motivations of the women who tolerate it or, like Courtney Reissig, promote it.

    I can only speak for the ones I know and have known. They fall into two basic categories: women who are afraid of displeasing God and women who believe that the System will enhance the likelihood that they will get a “good” husband who will be a protector and nurturer. Both of those things are grounded in fear, and the second makes marriage into a transaction. For the guys, the second reason is that they will get a compliant wife who will not be a nag and a shrew. For some reason, it just never occurs to them that they have made a relationship dependent on rules rather than on mutual love and respect.


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    caroline wrote:

    like Courtney Reissig, promote it.

    I think that once you have bought into the System, the only way to realize any kind of personhood as a woman is to become SuperComp. Sort of like the SuperMoms that are currently in fashion. But that is just my opinion. Another reason might be the church parallel to the corporate wife. Her husband’s career benefits if she plays that role well. Or possibly both.

    I do not know Courtney, so I do not know what motivates her in particular. I do know that her writing in this post is very shallow, and I do not mean that as a slam. She is doing the best she can with very little evidence for her position from the text of the Bible. So she becomes creative to make the System “fit” with the Biblical narrative.


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    @ elastigirl:
    I’ve never seen the movie but based on my brief time in a fundamentalist church, I can see where you’re coming from.
    I used to be Christian but the fundamentalist world view really opened my eyes. No spiritual abuse but the Bible was revealed to me in a most intolerant light & I found it abhorrent.
    I have not been able to attend church even in my previous denomination.
    Guess I really took a bite from the tree of knowledge.


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    Jack wrote:

    Guess I really took a bite from the tree of knowledge.

    Not on my A game today. Should have been the fruit of the tree.


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    @ Velour:
    Thanks but I need a manly grass skirt. Something biblically approved. I think I’ll send the question to “ask the pastor” at 9 marks. Seriously. I’ll let you know if I get a response. Should I ask anyone else? I can tally the responses & report back so we are all correctly attired.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    caroline wrote:
    I still have a hard time understanding the motivations of the women who tolerate it or, like Courtney Reissig, promote it.
    Stockholm Syndrome?

    I also refer to it as Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. Odorless. Tasteless. Deadly.
    You’re knocked out before you know it.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I have wondered about that. She is the one who came up with the interpretation of Genesis 3:16 that women desire to usurp their husband’s authority.

    Even Wendy Alsup has pushed back on this belief.


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    Jack wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks but I need a manly grass skirt. Something biblically approved. I think I’ll send the question to “ask the pastor” at 9 marks. Seriously. I’ll let you know if I get a response. Should I ask anyone else? I can tally the responses & report back so we are all correctly attired.

    Well finally we have a “true Biblical man” (TM) in our midst. So proud of you. Unlike all of the other shirkers – Mark Dever, Bruce Ware, Wayne Grudem, Owen Strachan, and all of the other “faux [that’s fake in French] Biblical men” who refuse to wear long dresses and sandals. It’s such a terrible disappointment to me. I expected them to be like Jesus, just like they’ve always claimed.

    You Maple Leafs are a good lot.


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    @ Daisy:
    A “less violent Passion of the Christ” indeed!


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    caroline wrote:

    but I agree with you that a general lack of empathy seems to characterize the entire movement.

    That’s because it’s counterfeit Christianity.


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    Paige Patterson was unable to consolidate power like Mohler. Not that he didn’t try. I’m sure Patterson can’t stand it that he never quite made SBC Pope the way Mohler has been. Mohler completely outmaneuvered him.

    The complementarian movement was a calculated move to bring the disparate groups like Farwell, Piper, et al into the SBC fold. Once you could get them in, it became a numbers game where the neo-cals outnumbered the traditional SBC.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    but not having had a chance to analyze my thoughts & feelings, i wonder if i’m off-base on that. even partially. anyone?

    Not off the mark at all. The common thread in all tyrannies (religious or secular) is the obsession with a kind of enforced perfection. Whether it’s couched in a sin-flesh-vs.-spirit thing as in the many favors of Christianity, or a what have you analog in the secular realm, both hate and despise human freedom.
    I’ve long been a fan of the dystopian fiction genre and I still think David Mitchell’s Cloud Atlas is the best of the lot, in both print and film.


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    @ Velour:

    I love this! 🙂


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    siteseer wrote:

    A funny thought is that if all preachers left off preaching about their own personal convictions, it would pretty much silence a lot of them right there! lol

    I know. I agreed with the rest of your post too.

    I see so many Christians who take topics the Bible is silent on or neutral about, or where even God says he’s all “meh” about it, but they try to insist their personal preference is iron clad, biblical, and you must follow it or else you’re in sin.

    Or, else, like Stanley with the “kneeling while praying” thing try to shame you and guilt you into complying.


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    @ Burwell:
    Oh this is horrible! This is malpractices. If the “Smiths” reported this , to I can bet no one cared. That is typical SBC when it comes to celebrities.

    This just makes my blood boil.


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    @ Nancy2:

    I am glad the dog is doing better.

    As for taking care of snakes, the CBMW crowd would probably suddenly decide that dealing with snakes is woman’s work. 🙂


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I can only speak for the ones I know and have known. They fall into two basic categories: women who are afraid of displeasing God and women who believe that the System will enhance the likelihood that they will get a “good” husband who will be a protector and nurturer.

    My experience with complementarianism is that the men generally are not wife beaters or anything like that. But they have something like a hero complex when it comes to women.

    The women can get by with a lot of misbehavior and the men will write it off to her being the weaker vessel. They can also present him with a laundry list of things he has to do to be a Real Man™. I knew guys who were in seminary, working 60 hours a week, trying to raise six home school children, and it just never seemed to be enough to satisfy the wife.

    I’m not saying there aren’t cases where you have almost sociopathic men who are domineering and controlling their wives, but in all too many cases you have men who get something unhealthy from catering to a woman who has Daddy issues.


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    Daisy wrote:

    As for taking care of snakes, the CBMW crowd would probably suddenly decide that dealing with snakes is woman’s work.

    I would agree with them – about the two-legged snakes in particular! (Smirk)


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    Allie, our snake-bit dog is improving. Her neck is still swollen, but by 10:00 pm, the swelling had gone down quite a bit in her face! ( I took a couple of ugly photos of her!) She’s a toughie. She ate half a can of dog food this afternoon, then some lasagna at supper! It was difficult for her to eat with the swelling, but she was hungry! I had to spoon feed her, and the lasagna made her feel much better! She walked with us after supper and barked at a ground squirrel and ran around a little bit. She even tried to play with a sneaky toy, but the swelling made it to difficult.
    She’ll have some scabs where the fangs got her, but I think she’ll be fine by Saturday morning!


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    @ Nancy2:
    Should say squeaky toy! We don’t like sneaky toys – sounds too snakey!


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    @ Lowlandseer:

    I may or may not research that more in the future, but it’s funny to think they think they are dying for virgins but are getting raisins.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I think you are exactly right.

    I noticed in part of her response that she said some of her feedback from complementarians were accusations that she’s secretly an egalitarian, a “thin” complementarian, etc.

    You cannot disagree with these guys at all, or else they will throw the “you are a liberal who hates the Bible, and I bet you’re a bra burning feminist too” rock at you.


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    R2 wrote:

    And… that is why they hate secular psychology. A good counselor would immediately call them out for being codependent and not really a man’s man.

    I find this interesting. I have seen a lot of complementarian men who talk poorly of psychology. They are very paranoid of it. Your explanation might be the thing that links the two together.


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    Velour wrote:

    Mansplaining. That’s what we need per Owen The Trinitarian Heretic who can’t get a real job and works for his heretic father in law’s business CBMW.

    This only is somewhat realted to your post, but I have unfortunately seen Christian men, even ones who claim the label egalitarian (or mutualist) who get their underwear in a twist on Christian egalitarian groups if a Christian man is indeed man-splaining to a woman, get told his behavior man-splaining.

    They claim they feel deeply hurt that their behavior is being called out as mansplaining.

    So, I’ve seen some blogs or groups ban the term being used at all. Instead of banning the term, I think the men being called out for it need to do some soul searching: are you in fact mansplaining? Because maybe you are, you know.

    Men are often blind to the fact they do thi to women, and I’ve seen several admit to it and say they weren’t aware they were doing so until a woman pointed it out to them.

    Men are being pandered to in such groups, which are really meant to be safe spaces for Christian women to vent their frustrations over comp, among other things.
    Christian women can’t always get a fair shake even in groups intended to be places where they can be heard. The men and their feelings are still pandered to, at the expense of women.


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    @ Lea:
    They used to do birthday party type stuff and bday cards in one office I worked in, which was fine, when we started out with like 6 people.

    Then the office grew to 30 or more people, and it seemed like EVERY DAY we were having to plan or go to a B-day party or sign bDay cards for everyone, and I got so tired of the Bday stuff after awhile. It was usually the ladies in the office who took care of all that stuff.


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    Lea wrote:

    Then we got one or two more women and all of a sudden we had to get a birthday cake every month or something!

    One lady I worked with LIKED making cakes. It was all good at first, when it was only like 5, 6 people, but when our office blew up to like 30 or more, she started to sort of tire or resent baking the cakes.

    I told her if it stopped being fun, to just stop. She was not under an obligation to bake cakes several times a month.


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    @ Christiane:

    I don’t know, maybe.
    My experience with these guys is that they do not know what to do with people or concepts that don’t fit their preconceived ideas and doctrines, so they will insult those people or things, or ignore them.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Their tricks have been exposed, and the act is probably not going to sell as many tickets in the future.

    Maybe I’m wrong, but my perception is that the internet is helping to expose complementarianism for the sham it is.
    There are also more materials easily at the go for anyone who doubts it. If you search the web enough, you can find mutualist / egalitarian content.


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    It infuriates me that the same people who complained about all the liberals who didn’t believe the Bible, destroyed the lives and careers of good, honest, thoughtful folks in the name of Biblical inerrancy are now teaching one of the basest forms of heresy in ESS to justify their hatred of women who are smart, capable, and better gifted than they by God.

    I know, this bugs me, too. Complementarians claim to be biblical and accuse those who disagree with them of playing fast and loose with the Bible, but they are constantly reading stuff into the Bible that is not there, all to support their Male Hierarchy views.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Several years ago, the Council for Biblical Wackiness had an article on their site on how women shouldn’t participate in the Olympics. A year or so after that the US women won the World Cup and Christian Brandi Chastain was interview in by several outlets and talked about her faith. CBMW must have had a tizzy. Oh, and that article disappeared.

    Is there anything they do think it’s OK for women to do, other than marry and have children?

    Wouldn’t it be shorter for them to make a list of stuff they think women CAN do?

    Might it look like:
    1. marry 2. have a kid 3. bake casseroles

    I can’t think of anything else they would allow. Piper doesn’t want women taking Karate (or using it), doesn’t want them reading Bibles in churches, doesn’t want them being cops.

    I guess in Complementarian Land, women are supposed to be like robots, after a day of wife-ing and mom-ing, turn them off, stick them in a closet over night to re-charge?

    There was a TV show on years ago about a girl robot called “Small Wonder.” I guess complementarians think women should be like that girl robot.


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    @ Max:

    A lot of Christian women I’ve seen have already said they won’t marry a complementarian guy.

    These comp guys won’t have any wives to lord authority over.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I have seen a lot of complementarian men who talk poorly of psychology. They are very paranoid of it. Your explanation might be the thing that links the two together.

    I’m convinced of it. Cluster B theology was such a good way of putting it.

    I’ll go a step further and say that if someone has grown up around people who have personality disorders then a fatalist view of the world such as Calvinism is easier to accept. Within the same family you can have basically good people and people who are intractably evil, and the doctrine of election and reprobation helps make sense of the world. A personality disordered person has no conscious awareness that they’re sick and rarely do they change: that fits perfectly with the idea they’re reprobate.

    A person who has adopted Calvinism due to such psychological trauma will see secular psychology as threatening because it exposes their coping mechanisms. And a person from a dysfunctional family may prefer violate Nicean Christology than to face the fact their dad was a jerk or the fact their mom was crazy. The anger and instability you see from them may result from some deep inner wound.

    If I were a gambler I’d bet money that’s the case for many of them.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Oh my gosh, that was so terribly awful. What a horrible, horrible article. And you’re right, absolutely callous toward those who aren’t just like her. Sad…and a little pathetic.

    Yes, all that and I have to say, I’m more than tired of complementarian Christians acting as though I (or any woman) am second rate, selfish, or defective, all because I didn’t put my ovaries to use in having a kid.

    I’ve never even been married, what do they want me to do, hook up with strange men I pick up via dating apps or at bars for one night stands and raise a kid alone, on purpose?


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    Jack wrote:

    A “less violent Passion of the Christ” indeed!

    What I find fascinating is that when that clip first came out (DJesus Uncrossed, on SNL), a lot of conservative critics ripped it apart for disrespecting Jesus or Christians.

    However, the Jesus in that clip (where he’s using machine guns and stuff) is exactly the same Jesus that conservative, complementarian guys like Mark Driscoll or John Piper promotes!

    Christians are pushing this cartoonish, Manly Man Jesus figure in their sermons and books, not just secular Hollywood in goofy skits.


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    R2 wrote:

    But they have something like a hero complex when it comes to women.

    I linked to a page by a complementarian guy on here weeks ago who wrote a page called “An Open Letter to Rey from Star Wars” where yes, he wants to play the hero to women, but feels he can only do so if women would stop being so darn confident and competent.

    He was begging women (seriously) to stop being independent, tough, competent, all because he says they were making him feel un-needed, weak, etc.


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    @ Nancy2:

    Glad to hear she is improving. 🙂
    I wish I had lasagna. It’s one of my favorite foods.


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    Daisy wrote:

    R2 wrote:
    But they have something like a hero complex when it comes to women.
    I linked to a page by a complementarian guy on here weeks ago who wrote a page called “An Open Letter to Rey from Star Wars” where yes, he wants to play the hero to women, but feels he can only do so if women would stop being so darn confident and competent.
    He was begging women (seriously) to stop being independent, tough, competent, all because he says they were making him feel un-needed, weak, etc.

    He got a lot of justified grief on Facebook for that post. Poor thing didn’t realize that he had pasted a big “Undatable” sign on himself.


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    Daisy wrote:

    If you search the web enough, you can find mutualist / egalitarian content.

    my goodness, you can go back to the early days of the Church and find egalitarian content:
    “From a letter by Tertullian, an Early Church Father, to his wife, ca. 202 A.D.

    ” How beautiful, then, the marriage of two Christians, two who are one in hope, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow, one in the religion they practice.

    They are as brother and sister, both servants of the same Master. Nothing divides them, either in flesh or in Spirit. They are in very truth, two in one flesh; and where there is but one flesh there is also but one spirit.

    They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another.

    Side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another, they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts… Psalms and hymns they sing to one another.

    Hearing and seeing this, Christ rejoices. To such as these He gives His peace. Where there are two together, there also He is present, and where He is, there evil is not.”


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    Daisy wrote:

    Christians are pushing this cartoonish, Manly Man Jesus figure in their sermons and books, not just secular Hollywood in goofy skits.

    When he’s not submissive,like women are supposed to be. Which still confuses me. If they believe Jesus is submissive to the father then where do they translate it into women submitting to men?
    It cannot be emphasized enough. There is nothing redeeming about complementarianism. Nothing. Period. It is nothing more than an excuse to abuse.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    For some reason, it just never occurs to them that they have made a relationship dependent on rules rather than on mutual love and respect.

    Preach it, Gram3!


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    Jack wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks but I need a manly grass skirt. Something biblically approved. I think I’ll send the question to “ask the pastor” at 9 marks. Seriously. I’ll let you know if I get a response. Should I ask anyone else? I can tally the responses & report back so we are all correctly attired.

    That will be just fine, Jack. Start with 9Marxists and then contact the Boyz over
    at Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood. Then Acts 29 and Matt Chandler, since
    Mark Driscoll is no longer involved.

    While you’re at it, I’d like to make you a future salesman at our online store here
    for Pound Sand Ministries (TM). Could you get orders from the Boyz for their manly Biblical dresses and sandals, just like Jesus wore.

    I’m concerned that they’re (falsely) claiming to be “Biblical men” (TM) but aren’t dressed for the part.

    Sincerely,

    Velour, Vice President of Online Marketing and Retail
    for Pound Sand Ministries (TM) and its parachurch organizations


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Several years ago, the Council for Biblical Wackiness had an article on their site on how women shouldn’t participate in the Olympics. A year or so after that the US women won the World Cup and Christian Brandi Chastain was interview in by several outlets and talked about her faith. CBMW must have had a tizzy. Oh, and that article disappeared.

    For the love of God, CBMW ALWAYS finds new ways to make themselves look like idiots.
    Their only consolation is that John Piper is such a nut – his bizarre tweets, and interviews, blogs – that he seems to me like he couldn’t pass a drug test.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I can!
    Belly laughs.
    Velour, if you and I are ever in the same place at the same time ………..
    Ouch. Trouble will ensue, if you know what I mean!

    Girl, don’t you know it!

    Thelma and Louise ride again.


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    @ Gram3:

    “Some people just cannot stand peace and want to stir up trouble between people while others want to play power games with other people.”
    ++++++++++

    in my misguided days of working in an admin-type job at an aerospace supplier (not where a creative person belongs), i remember often hearing in jest how peace time was bad for business. i’m sure it’s the same for other industries, as well.

    it strikes me that relational peace with others, peace with God, peace with oneself are bad for business in the christian industry. there’s just not a whole lot to talk about.

    i truly believe that professional christians, whether knowingly or not, manufacture all kinds of problems and issues between people and God and between people and people. tasks and to-do’s and formulas are invented, and sold as the path to God & to success if you embrace them, or grave consequences if you do not. all this creates jobs. gives them something to talk about. the means to make money. the means to carve out significance for themselves.

    i really don’t think the pursuit of God is hard.

    it’s dang mysterious, but so what. God is invisible so of course it’s going to be mysterious. let’s let that one go and be ok with it.

    and choosing what is morally right and of good character is often not easy.

    but none of this is complicated.


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    @ R2:

    “but in all too many cases you have men who get something unhealthy from catering to a woman who has Daddy issues.”
    +++++++++++

    what are Daddy issues?

    “all too many cases” — you think more women than not have these Daddy issues? or is it complementarian women you’re referring to?


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    @ Muff Potter:

    “The common thread in all tyrannies (religious or secular) is the obsession with a kind of enforced perfection. Whether it’s couched in a sin-flesh-vs.-spirit thing as in the many favors of Christianity, or a what have you analog in the secular realm, both hate and despise human freedom.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    how and why does the pursuit of God devolve into a tyranny?

    i guess first off there must be a tyrant. (thinking out loud here)

    what is it about the pursuit of God that activates tyrants and activates a following for said tyrant?


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    @ kimberly rock-shelton:

    “The complementarian movement was a calculated move to bring the disparate groups like Farwell, Piper, et al into the SBC fold. Once you could get them in, it became a numbers game where the neo-cals outnumbered the traditional SBC.”
    +++++++++++++

    revolting. unbearable. using people, manipulating their marriages, loading down men with unnecessary pressures and subjugating women…. for institutional advantage. power consolidation.


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    “biblical” manhood and womanhood… i think there’s a credibility problem.

    Oh my gosh, that should be a bumper sticker or something
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    GREAT IDEA!!! wonder if i could do this…. how would i distribute them? a website?


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    @ Christiane:

    “Maybe what you want to ‘not set foot in’ anymore is any reminder that we are ‘less than’ and unworthy of the dignity of the human person made in God’s image.”
    ++++++++++++

    i’m still at the avoid-places-where-i-start-hyperventilating stage.


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    @ Patriciamc:

    “Several years ago, the Council for Biblical Wackiness had an article on their site on how women shouldn’t participate in the Olympics. A year or so after that the US women won the World Cup and Christian Brandi Chastain was interview in by several outlets and talked about her faith. CBMW must have had a tizzy. Oh, and that article disappeared.”
    +++++++++

    they clearly have too much time on their hands.

    imagine, a job where you are paid to mine areas of society where women are not restricted enough. CBMW, employer of female-achievement nazis. What a noble use of funds. How proud comps must be! 😐


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    @ Josh:
    I agree with you, Josh. My blood pressure is generally on the low end of the scale but I’m not gonna raise it by reading Wilson. Eating biltong is a much tastier way to counter low BP. (Not jerky, I was given some once to try – yuck. Sorry.)


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      __

    Submit! : “The beauty of complementarity?”

    hmmm…

      Are these comp guys trying to convert Christians to Calvinism instead of encouraging the sharing of Jesus’ gospel with the unsaved, which includes ‘All folks’, not just John Calvin’s or Augustine’s ‘elect’?

    huh?

      Apparently, with a 16th century false gnostic gospel under their proverbial belt, (or per sad chance the congregational hood) the New Calvinist now corrupt everything they touch (including the Holy Scriptures) ; now their corrupt teaching include the Christian home? Next the workplace, or the marketplace, as well?

    What?

    could b.

    (sadface)

    Please Beware!

    *

    Some ‘Complementarity’ Videos:

    https://m.youtube.com/results?q=the%20beauty%20of%20complementarity%3F%20&sm=3

    (Might wanna see your bible for the correct details)

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    P.S. If you watch the videos listed above, please don’t forget the beverage n’ da popcorn. They don’t come in Surround Sound or 3D, sorry.   🙂
    __
    notes:

    “Leaving New Calvinism” a video full of interesting questions, perhaps…
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5wkg95a_qUw

    “When is it ‘safe’ to leave a New Calvinist church?” food for proverbial though, perhaps…
    https://m.youtube.com/results?q=leving%20a%20clvinist%20church&sm=3


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    This is one of the most powerful and heartbreaking stories I have ever read and it explains why Aimee Byrd is making such a courageous stand against the abuse of power by men in the marital relationship.

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/listening-to-abused-women?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=02ac9b4e1c-Housewife+Theologian&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-02ac9b4e1c-119263361


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    @ Lowlandseer:
    And by courageous I mean in breaking ranks with those who promote complementarianism to highlight the suffering of others. The real heroes of course are the victims who find the strength to speak out.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Then we got one or two more women and all of a sudden we had to get a birthday cake every month or something!

    One lady I worked with LIKED making cakes. It was all good at first, when it was only like 5, 6 people, but when our office blew up to like 30 or more, she started to sort of tire or resent baking the cakes.

    I told her if it stopped being fun, to just stop. She was not under an obligation to bake cakes several times a month.

    Lol at your overemphasis on ‘liked’!i love baking, but we don’t have enough people in my office or everyone’s diabetic or on a diet…a cake wouldn’t be eaten. We have worked out a Jason’s deli/cupcake place plan that seems to be working well for birthday with minimal work involved. The hardest part is scheduling a day people are actually there.


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    @ Sopwith:

    Oh dear, lil miss Courtney has a video!


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    Lea wrote:

    Oh dear, lil miss Courtney has a video!

    What Bible is she using to come to this sick view of the scriptures?


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    This is one of the most powerful and heartbreaking stories I have ever read and it explains why Aimee Byrd is making such a courageous stand against the abuse of power by men in the marital relationship.

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/listening-to-abused-women?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=02ac9b4e1c-Housewife+Theologian&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-02ac9b4e1c-119263361

    There are two articles listed in the post. The second one about narcissists is fantastic. Truly.


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    Sopwith wrote:

    Submit! : “The beauty of complementarity?”

    It should be “The beauty of complementary: a man’s perspective”!


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    Ken P. wrote:

    In response to kitty the other day, SBC Voices has done a post on ESS. Feel free to check it out. http://sbcvoices.com/the-eternal-subordination-of-the-son-is-a-biblical-viewpoint-by-john-wylie/

    Wow! They did this all because of Kitty–eyes rolling. My prediction the comments for the most part will say how biblical ESS. It is cr#p (ed.) in my books. Just another way to keep those wimmin in line.


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    Is There A Line Between Complementarianism And The Patriarchy Movement? by Ashley Easter
    http://www.ashleyeaster.com/blog/complementarianism-and-patriarchy

    Snippet:
    ——————-
    Yesterday Tim Challis posted a blog post about why he is not Egalitarian. There were several things that I obviously look at differently but one thing really stuck out to me. He distinguished Complementarianism from the “patriarchy movement” which he said “dangerously disempowers women”.

    …is Complementarianism clearly distinguished from “hyper-headship” or the “Patriarchy Movement”?


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    @ Gram3:
    A third category. Women whose assent and often income is part of the promotion of comp doctrine. I saw a lot of that in the 90’s. The marriage conference circuit was huge.


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    Daisy wrote:

    …is Complementarianism clearly distinguished from “hyper-headship” or the “Patriarchy Movement”?

    No. It seems a sliding scale, but if you go too far in the egal direction you are accused of being a ‘thin’ complementarian, which seems, as near as I can tell, means you think women are fully formed people.


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    @ Christiane:

    That is true, but going online to find stuff makes life a little easier. I grew up pre-web, where you had to go to a library and use a card catalog to look up books and articles.

    This was the case up until around the mid to late 1990s. A lot of libraries were just starting to transition to putting their info on computers, rather than cards.

    A lot of people didn’t have the internet then, either.


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    R2 wrote:

    The women can get by with a lot of misbehavior and the men will write it off to her being the weaker vessel. They can also present him with a laundry list of things he has to do to be a Real Man™. I knew guys who were in seminary, working 60 hours a week, trying to raise six home school children, and it just never seemed to be enough to satisfy the wife.

    Thank you for pointing that out. If a man is supposed to be Jesus, then certain kinds of women are going to demand that he be just that. Now that you mentioned it, I can think of a couple I know where the wife has an extreme attitude of entitlement and another couple where the guy bears an enormous pile of guilt. Toxic stuff for authentic relationships.

    There are all sorts of pathological patterns.


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    ESS is the tip of an iceberg. In the following poll results from Barna they discuss a lot of beliefs, but if you scroll down there is a paragraph on what self professed christians believe about Jesus. I found the entire poll interesting, but especially that part.

    https://www.barna.org/barna-update/faith-spirituality/260-most-american-christians-do-not-believe-that-satan-or-the-holy-spirit-exis#.V3Zz_EvxWLI

    As you can see from the title alone, in that poll, most respondents were not trinitarians.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Women whose assent and often income is part of the promotion of comp doctrine.

    And also those women whose income depends on keeping a comp man happy so he, and his income, will stick around. You know the saying ‘you got to pay the light bill’ applies to more than just sex.


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    Velour wrote:

    For the love of God, CBMW ALWAYS finds new ways to make themselves look like idiots.

    I don’t know if this is the same article as the Olympic one someone above mentioned or not, but I think Julie Anne had a post about CBMW (or some other comp group) on her blog who did an article around 2 years ago stating that women should not be ice figure skaters or something?-

    Or something about how marriages should be like ice skating, but only where the male partner does the catching / heavy lifting, and it’s the wife’s (female skater’s) duty to just look like pretty arm candy next to the man, and to be dainty and poetic on ice? -Something like that.

    Tim F. did a post about some complementarian guy who wrote a post saying something about how God designed women tennis players (or women in general), to want to show off their female form and body to men, and to want to “twirl” in a tennis skirt.

    I think tennis skirt twirl guy eventually pulled his article down.

    Here is Tim’s post about it:

    On the Denseness of Men – Tennis Twirl
    https://timfall.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/on-the-denseness-of-men/


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    elastigirl wrote:

    what are Daddy issues?
    “all too many cases” — you think more women than not have these Daddy issues? or is it complementarian women you’re referring to?

    I read an article about this awhile back. I can’t remember exactly where.

    This might be it:
    You Don’t Have Daddy Issues
    http://jezebel.com/you-dont-have-daddy-issues-but-your-piece-of-shit-fathe-1712656531

    Snippet:
    —-
    The narrative I’d been told my whole life—that because I’d been neglected and mistreated by my horrorshow of a father, I would suffer forever from daddy issues—was actually a complete lie. The person who suffered from daddy issues wasn’t me. I was actually quite together. I had a friendships, goals, a career. I had a full heart, I was eager to give, I was trusting.

    By simple principle of the fact that my dad could not handle being a dad, he was the one who had daddy issues, not me. I just happened to be raised in his crossfire.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Yesterday Tim Challis posted a blog post about why he is not Egalitarian. There were several things that I obviously look at differently but one thing really stuck out to me. He distinguished Complementarianism from the “patriarchy movement” which he said “dangerously disempowers women”.

    Go find his posts on sex where he tells women to “have sex for God’s sake.”

    Poor guy.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Tim F. did a post about some complementarian guy who wrote a post saying something about how God designed women tennis players (or women in general), to want to show off their female form and body to men, and to want to “twirl” in a tennis skirt.

    I heard about the ice skating one (which was annoying mostly because the women are really athletic too and that wasn’t acknowledged but also because figure skating is a ROUTINE. It’s a dance, it’s choreographed and it’s no more than 5 or 6 minutes long. Idiots), but not this tennis one! That is pretty outrageous.

    I wear dresses all summer long because they are comfortable and cool. I hope none of these idiots think it has anything to do with them. Actually, that’s a common theme from this type – they think everything a woman does is because of men. It’s not.


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    R2 wrote:

    Go find his posts on sex where he tells women to “have sex for God’s sake.”

    You really do have to wonder what it is about all these men that their wives don’t seem to want to have sex with them. Maybe they should consider that they might be doing something wrong here…


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    R2 wrote:

    Go find his posts on sex where he tells women to “have sex for God’s sake.”

    How romantic! Did he tell us to say the Serenity Pray over and over during sex, too?


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    Daisy wrote:

    Tim F. did a post about some complementarian guy who wrote a post saying something about how God designed women tennis players (or women in general), to want to show off their female form and body to men, and to want to “twirl” in a tennis skirt.

    Couldn’t the same be said about men tennis players/figure skaters, etc, wanting to show off their male form……..????


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    mot wrote:

    What Bible is she using to come to this sick view of the scriptures?

    The Eisegete Standard Verseion.


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    Clobber Verseion.


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    @ Daisy:

    I’m just reading that tennis article: “They were little girls, who were made to display the beauty they were given and to have that beauty honored.”

    Ew, ew, ew! And way to miss the entire point of why people were irritated btw. Ugh.


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    Lea wrote:

    I know a lot of people are opposed to this, but have you considered going to a full on liberal church?

    No, I haven’t. Right now I’m spending my Sunday mornings in front of Mark Driscoll’s attempt to reinvent himself in Scottsdale. I expect to be spending even more time in front of the building as he ramps up to two services later this month. This tends to conflict with regular church times.


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    Sopwith wrote:

    Are these comp guys trying to convert Christians to Calvinism instead of encouraging the sharing of Jesus’ gospel with the unsaved, which includes ‘All folks’, not just John Calvin’s or Augustine’s ‘elect’?
    huh?
      Apparently, with a 16th century false gnostic gospel under their proverbial belt, (or per sad chance the congregational hood) the New Calvinist now corrupt everything they touch (including the Holy Scriptures) ; now their corrupt teaching include the Christian home? Next the workplace, or the marketplace, as well?

    Spot on, Sopy.


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    mirele wrote:

    Right now I’m spending my Sunday mornings in front of Mark Driscoll’s attempt to reinvent himself in Scottsdale.

    I think that’s fantastic! I hope you don’t think I’m trying to send you back to church. Just curious.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Tim F. did a post about some complementarian guy who wrote a post saying something about how God designed women tennis players (or women in general), to want to show off their female form and body to men, and to want to “twirl” in a tennis skirt.
    I think tennis skirt twirl guy eventually pulled his article down.

    Thanks, Daisy. I look forward to reading it later. Tim Fall has a knack for knocking these guys out of the water in a nice way and honing in on Biblical truths that refute their nonsense.

    Does anyone tell these guys, “Don’t say/write that because you sound like an idiot!”
    They don’t listen to wise counsel, not a one of them.

    Just like the Puritans were undone by their antics, so too will the NeoCals be undone by their antics and lose adherents. People will only put up with so much, and then they won’t.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Tim F. did a post about some complementarian guy who wrote a post saying something about how God designed women tennis players (or women in general), to want to show off their female form and body to men, and to want to “twirl” in a tennis skirt.

    OK, I’ll say it … these New Calvinist complementarians have their brains stuck in their zippers! There is nothing Christlike at all about their thoughts and behavior; they are driven by flesh, not Spirit. The Body of Christ better wake up soon – the reformers are coming to a church near you (if they are not already there). Help you children steer clear of them.


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    mirele wrote:

    No, I haven’t. Right now I’m spending my Sunday mornings in front of Mark Driscoll’s attempt to reinvent himself in Scottsdale. I expect to be spending even more time in front of the building as he ramps up to two services later this month. This tends to conflict with regular church times.

    mirele,
    Have you ever thought that just maybe you are doing what God is leading you to do?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    “Maybe what you want to ‘not set foot in’ anymore is any reminder that we are ‘less than’ and unworthy of the dignity of the human person made in God’s image.”
    ++++++++++++

    i’m still at the avoid-places-where-i-start-hyperventilating stage.

    Oh, my dear, what have they done to you ?


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    This is one of the most powerful and heartbreaking stories I have ever read and it explains why Aimee Byrd is making such a courageous stand against the abuse of power by men in the marital relationship.

    I think it’s great she is taking that topic on, but I don’t think complementarians will ever deal effectively with abuse.

    This blogger outlines a few reasons why this is so, and I think his page is pretty good:

    Control: The Reason The Gospel Coalition and CBMW Cannot Actually Condemn Spousal Abuse
    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2016/01/control-reason-gospel-coalition-and.html


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    Lydia wrote:

    A third category. Women whose assent and often income is part of the promotion of comp doctrine. I saw a lot of that in the 90’s

    I have seen that as well, also at SBTS. Women would work and put their husband through seminary. He would stay home to study, and by study I mean play video games.

    There were a lot of broken and dysfunctional couples. Maybe not any worse than you find out in the world but the marketing doesn’t match the reality when it comes to the CBMW. All hat, no cattle.


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    Velour wrote:

    Tim Fall has a knack for knocking these guys out of the water in a nice way and honing in on Biblical truths that refute their nonsense.

    Lifeguard Tim Fall, rescuing these guys from drowning in a sea of estrogen?


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    mot wrote:

    What Bible is she using to come to this sick view of the scriptures?

    Did you see this I linked to yesterday?
    She also has some pretty terrible views about women choosing when or if to have children:

    Have Babies, Just Not Yet” by Courtney Reissig
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2014/august/have-babies-just-not-yet.html?paging=off


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    Daisy wrote:

    CBMW (or some other comp group)…who did an article around 2 years ago [about] figure skaters

    The figure skating fanboy was Piper pal John Ensor:

    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/an-olympic-lesson-for-husbands-and-wives

    It’s the pairs event he’s especially fixated on:

    “He leads her onto the ice and initiates each part of their routine. She receives that leadership and trusts in his strength. His raw physical strength is more on display than hers…”


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    @ Lea:
    Thanks for the link to Aimee Byrd’s post from an emotional abuse survivor. I think I must add her to my “must read daily” list.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Lifeguard Tim Fall, rescuing these guys from drowning in a sea of estrogen?

    I imagine that being a judge is good training for spotting stuff that needs to be spotted and handling it accordingly.


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    Jerome wrote:

    “He leads her onto the ice and initiates each part of their routine. She receives that leadership and trusts in his strength. His raw physical strength is more on display than hers…”

    They are soooo creeeepy! Do they rank women right up there with blow up dolls and crash dummies?


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    Ken P. wrote:

    In response to kitty the other day, SBC Voices has done a post on ESS. Feel free to check it out.
    http://sbcvoices.com/the-eternal-subordination-of-the-son-is-a-biblical-viewpoint-by-john-wylie/

    He thinks ESS is biblical.

    He says:

    Secondly, there are those who are egalitarians who have an aversion to anything that smacks of a hierarchy or submission.

    As to “submission,” it would not be such a horrible word or concept except that complementarians deny the Bible’s teaching that believers are to all submit to each other, and it’s a voluntary thing, not something to be demanded by one from the other.

    Comps distort the meaning of the word “submission.”

    Eph 5.21 applies submission to husbands, so that husbands are to submit to wives.


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    Lydia wrote:

    The marriage conference circuit was huge.

    I am constantly seeing Christians on Christian TV or some of their sites promoting marriage-related advice books, seminars, etc. There is an obsession with explaining or promoting marriage or giving marital advice. (Of course there’s nothing about being single in one’s adulthood).

    Jimmy Evans has a weekly or daily show on a Christian network, and it’s always about marriage. I can’t figure out how or why this guy and ones like him has an audience. He’s no more of an expert on marriage than anyone else. I can’t believe people pay good money to buy his books and stuff about marriage.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Eph 5.21 applies submission to husbands, so that husbands are to submit to wives.

    They have conveniently cut that verse out of their Bibles.


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    okrapod wrote:

    As you can see from the title alone, in that poll, most respondents were not trinitarians.

    From the linked to page you provided:
    “Most American Christians Do Not Believe that Satan or the Holy Spirit Exist”

    I’d say with all their droning on and on about Jesus vs the Father, complementarians don’t believe in the Holy Spirit, either.

    The Neo-Cals in general, including Neo Cal comps, have a Trinity of Father, Son, Holy Bible. There is no Holy Spirit with these guys.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    They are soooo creeeepy! Do they rank women right up there with blow up dolls and crash dummies?

    I can not imagine the nightmare that takes place when as a woman you are married to someone with this warped view. I can imagine a woman holding a position of supervision in the workplace and then coming home and being treated like a robot that must be programmed to do the most menial task.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Comps distort the meaning of the word “submission.”

    They have turned submission into blind obedience, which it clearly was never meant to be. They have gone 50 steps beyond to turn it into all sorts of things it also isn’t meant to be, like never communicating, being happy about doing something you disagree with, etc…

    Submit to each other, as per the bible, but that doesn’t mean any of the things the comp guys think it does and it doesn’t mean a hierarchy with them on the top, being selfish bosses. That is actually expressly forbidden in the command to LOVE their wives. They ignore scripture at every turn. I don’t care a fig for what they think, I only wish it wasn’t hurting people.


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    R2 wrote:

    Go find his posts on sex where he tells women to “have sex for God’s sake.”
    Poor guy.

    Challies waffles on sexual sin.

    Before I get to that. Challies tells people who are virgins past the age of 30 (who want to be married and having sex) that their virginity is “for God’s glory”. He (like 99% of Christians) have no inkling that when you want to be married and having sex, no amount of spiritualizing it away (“your unwanted celibacy status is for God’s glory”) helps.

    Challies spent one post downplaying celibacy and virginity and actually said that all fornicators are virgins now (he feels it’s wrong for Christians to adhere to biblical sexual morality).

    But then, a few years after that blog post, he let his wife do a guest post where she big time scolded Christian men who had affairs via the Ashley Madison cheating site scandal.

    So, with Challies, singles engaging in extra-marital sex is dandy and should not be condemned, but he and his wife will come down hard on married dudes who cheat.


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    Daisy wrote:

    So, with Challies, singles engaging in extra-marital sex is dandy and should not be condemned, but he and his wife will come down hard on married dudes who cheat.

    There is a huge difference in those two things, though. Singles are not hurting another person they promised to love by sneaking around on them. That is very damaging.


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    Lea wrote:

    You really do have to wonder what it is about all these men that their wives don’t seem to want to have sex with them. Maybe they should consider that they might be doing something wrong here…

    That is because they are selfish, entitled, and buy into secular stereotypes about women and sex.

    In almost every sermon I’ve seen or heard, the preacher assumes all married women hate sex and must be pressured to “put out” more for their sex-starved husbands.

    (They apparently never see the letters to advice columnists I do from married women who are dying to have sex, but their husbands have no interest or libido.)

    Further, Christian men feel the need to spell out in great detail the very sort of sexual positions or acts that all dudes prefer (Mark Driscoll really got into this).

    I’ve never yet heard a Christian preacher describe in detail the sorts of sexual acts wives would like their spouses to perform on them and tell the husbands to get to that pronto.

    Single women are depicted in Christian culture as being randy harlots who seek to target married men for affairs, so hence, Christians adopt the “Billy Graham Rule,” where single ladies are not allowed inside the Temple with everyone else, never mind the Holy of Holies.


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    Daisy wrote:

    He thinks ESS is biblical.

    From Wylie’s post on SBC Voices:

    “Those who have concerns about the implications of ESS to the doctrine of the trinity have my respect and understanding, but those who have an ulterior motive of advancing egalitarian doctrine, and who despise every idea of submission and obedience do not.”

    Well, in all due respect, these folks are not listening to the concerns of the rest of Christendom as they ought. Certainly, we have issues with ESS and its implications to the Trinity! But equally disturbing is the unBiblical extension of ESS to subordinating, controlling, intimidating, and manipulating women believers. Those who post and comment on TWW are not pushing egalitarian doctrine, nor do they have a problem with submission and obedience as defined by the whole of Scripture. Bottom-line concern is to speak out against the treatment of any believer as a lesser citizen in the Kingdom. In the Body of Christ, there should be no distinctions by race, social status, or gender: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). It’s tough to be “one” with those who preach and teach otherwise … sometimes you just can’t agree to disagree, you need to take a stand for Truth.


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    Max wrote:

    It’s tough to be “one” with those who preach and teach otherwise … sometimes you just can’t agree to disagree, you need to take a stand for Truth.

    Max. Amen. I’m glad they are babbling about ESS at voices it means they are seeing that they do not get the last word.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Couldn’t the same be said about men tennis players/figure skaters, etc, wanting to show off their male form……..????

    Nope. In their view, men were not created to be pretty, but women were. Women were put here by God for men’s enjoyment, and they want to look at sexy women. This gets into the Christian fantasy that women aren’t sexual and don’t like sex and don’t notice if men are sexy or not.

    We women do notice and we are just as visually oriented as men are, but Christian dudes (particularly the complementarians) keep wanting to deny all that.

    Complementarian men must find it comforting for some reason to ASSUME that women (esp married ones) are not visually stimulated by hot dudes who are in shape, and to assume that women are asexual and not as into sex as men are.


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    This is one of the most powerful and heartbreaking stories I have ever read and it explains why Aimee Byrd is making such a courageous stand against the abuse of power by men in the marital relationship.

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/listening-to-abused-women?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=02ac9b4e1c-Housewife+Theologian&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-02ac9b4e1c-119263361

    so the ‘husband’ found her ‘replacement’ and moved on, likely to continue the abusive pattern ……

    for some reason, reading that dreadful story, I thought for a moment ‘I wonder how Anna Duggar is enduring?’ In the days when the Josh Duggar stories (plural) were breaking, one of my heroes was Anna’s brother who wanted her to leave ‘that _ _ _ ‘ (rhymes with ‘dig’). I assume the brother was also brougt up in the patriarchy model, but he at least had empathy and love for his poor sister’s plight.

    I think about ‘love’ in the best possible Christian light, and I know that even in the midst of the darkest messes, love can make room for the way of grace if we withhold condemnation …. but, my dear God, just reading that story, I kept thinking how very sick that man’s behavior was, and how it would likely be perpetuated, unless there was some intervention that brought him into conviction that his concept of ‘male’ privilege to treat a wife with contempt is ‘justified’. Maybe the way of grace in such situations IS to intervene, and maybe it falls to the woman to take the intitiative for the sake of her sick spouse, but how does someone in the middle of patriarchy do this in a way that reinforces their own dignity as a human being and also their desire to help a spouse who lacks empathy to the point of emotional illness and is very capable of doing great harm as a result?

    Another thought, in the middle of all the mess, the children are watching.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m just reading that tennis article: “They were little girls, who were made to display the beauty they were given and to have that beauty honored.”
    Ew, ew, ew! And way to miss the entire point of why people were irritated btw. Ugh.

    It’s been awhile since I read that posts, but seeing that comment again brought to mind how it’s filled with inconsistencies.

    Comps spend half their time telling girls and women to cover their bodies so they won’t cause men to lust and stumble, then they spent the other half of their time telling girls and women to diet, stay in shape, look pretty, because dudes like checking out hot women.

    Complementarians often send conflicting messages like this.


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    Max wrote:

    “Those who have concerns about the implications of ESS to the doctrine of the trinity have my respect and understanding, but those who have an ulterior motive of advancing egalitarian doctrine, and who despise every idea of submission and obedience do not.”

    Anyone else see the influence Miller has had on this pastor. Seems mighty passive, agressive in this quote to me. I would post at Voices but I would never get my comment published.

    I do not frankly care whether he thinks ESS is biblical or not.


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    Christiane wrote:

    unless there was some intervention that brought him into conviction that his concept of ‘male’ privilege to treat a wife with contempt is ‘justified’.

    Correcting:
    ‘into’ shoud be ‘out of’ the conviction


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    Lea wrote:

    like never communicating

    I disagree with you a little there. I think they are all for on-way, top-down communication!


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    Daisy wrote:

    Further, Christian men feel the need to spell out in great detail the very sort of sexual positions or acts that all dudes prefer (Mark Driscoll really got into this).

    I’ve never yet heard a Christian preacher describe in detail the sorts of sexual acts wives would like their spouses to perform on them and tell the husbands to get to that pronto.

    That is so icky. I can’t imagine a man who has any empathy for his wife discussion his preferences in the bedroom in public. Or even in private.


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    Daisy wrote:

    A lot of Christian women I’ve seen have already said they won’t marry a complementarian guy. These comp guys won’t have any wives to lord authority over.

    What makes you think a New Calvinist complemenatarian would provide an honest answer to a prospective wife in this regard? Good Lord, if they will deceive their way into a pulpit, they would lie about their comp persuasion. As in the case of a church takeover, the truth will be revealed later in a wife takeover.


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    Jerome wrote:

    “He leads her onto the ice and initiates each part of their routine. She receives that leadership and trusts in his strength. His raw physical strength is more on display than hers…”

    He must really hate the singles competition, where the women ice skate alone.

    Oh, I remember at Julie Anne’s blog making a joke about the Blades of Glory movie, where two hetero dudes end up having to ice skate as a couple for ice skating competitions.

    Blades of Glory
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0445934/


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    Max wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    He thinks ESS is biblical.
    From Wylie’s post on SBC Voices:
    “Those who have concerns about the implications of ESS to the doctrine of the trinity have my respect and understanding, but those who have an ulterior motive of advancing egalitarian doctrine, and who despise every idea of submission and obedience do not.”
    Well, in all due respect, these folks are not listening to the concerns of the rest of Christendom as they ought. Certainly, we have issues with ESS and its implications to the Trinity! But equally disturbing is the unBiblical extension of ESS to subordinating, controlling, intimidating, and manipulating women believers. Those who post and comment on TWW are not pushing egalitarian doctrine, nor do they have a problem with submission and obedience as defined by the whole of Scripture. Bottom-line concern is to speak out against the treatment of any believer as a lesser citizen in the Kingdom. In the Body of Christ, there should be no distinctions by race, social status, or gender: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). It’s tough to be “one” with those who preach and teach otherwise … sometimes you just can’t agree to disagree, you need to take a stand for Truth.

    “those who are opposed to unorthodox, or heretical teachings have my respect…” isn’t that kind of an obvious statement?


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    Daisy wrote:

    Comps spend half their time telling girls and women to cover their bodies so they won’t cause men to lust and stumble, then they spent the other half of their time telling girls and women to diet, stay in shape, look pretty, because dudes like checking out hot women.

    Complementarians often send conflicting messages like this.

    Like Gothard wanting the women to dress ‘modestly’ but then also wanting women and girls to have long, curling hair which he thought very attractive ….. so strange … he had a hair fixation and out of it comes the required patriarchal hair do of very long curling hair. Reminds one of the identical hair styles sported by FLDS plural wives who array themselves in pastel prairie dresses.


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    Max wrote:

    “Those who have concerns about the implications of ESS to the doctrine of the trinity have my respect and understanding, but those who have an ulterior motive of advancing egalitarian doctrine, and who despise every idea of submission and obedience do not.”

    Yet, they use ESS to support and advance comp/pat! Kind of a “Biblical” way to say, “We can create it and use it to advance OUR agenda, but anyone who disagrees with us in any way can’t use it to defend their position! Na-na-na-boo-boo!”


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    Daisy wrote:

    Tim F. did a post about some complementarian guy who wrote a post saying something about how God designed women tennis players (or women in general), to want to show off their female form and body to men, and to want to “twirl” in a tennis skirt.

    Off topic, but it reminded me that I read in the paper that the Miss Teen USA pageants will no longer feature a swimsuit competition. The pageant will now include a athletic wear competition instead.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2016/06/29/miss-teen-usa-to-eliminate-swimsuit-competition/86502942/


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    mot wrote:

    They have conveniently cut that verse out of their Bibles.

    The rare comp will admit that it exists but argue that it does NOT apply to husbands, even though the text itself does not say that. So much for their claim of sola scriptura and taking the Bible seriously.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I’ve never yet heard a Christian preacher describe in detail the sorts of sexual acts wives would like their spouses to perform on them and tell the husbands to get to that pronto.

    Ha! Wouldn’t that be an interesting sermon…


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    Lea wrote:

    There is a huge difference in those two things, though. Singles are not hurting another person they promised to love by sneaking around on them. That is very damaging.

    They’re both still sexual sins and should be called out.
    I think that singles engaging in extra marital sex can be damaging to other people in other ways, like to one’s future spouse. There are or can be emotional ramifications, comparing your current sweetie to previous lovers, STDs, etc. But Christians really balk these days at holding single adults to an expectation of celibacy, they are willing to let that slide.

    It’s not consistent to act like ‘singles sex’ is no big deal but when that single later marries expect him or her to act like married sex should be sacred. It sends a mixed message.


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    Daisy wrote:

    The rare comp will admit that it exists but argue that it does NOT apply to husbands, even though the text itself does not say that. So much for their claim of sola scriptura and taking the Bible seriously.

    Yeah. Many times, I’ve heard preachers and SS teachers spend a lot of time on Eph. 5:22-27, and then skim over Gal. 3:28 as fast as their little Southern-drawl-tongues will move!


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    Max wrote:

    (quoting the comp guy from the other site)

    “Those who have concerns about the implications of ESS to the doctrine of the trinity have my respect and understanding, but those who have an ulterior motive of advancing egalitarian doctrine, and who despise every idea of submission and obedience do not.”

    I’d also add he’s being dishonest. It’s not egalitarians who have “ulterior motives” (they are pretty straight forward with saying what they believe and why), and it’s comps using the Trinity to push a view of gender, not so much egalitarians.

    He’s projecting what “his side” is guilty of on to his opponents.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Complementarians often send conflicting messages like this.

    This is what happens when you create a theology that is entirely centered around men. Every. Single. Thought those people have regarding women is how they can benefit men – whether it is making them happy with their looks or sex, cooking supper, or making them ‘not sin’ somehow.

    It’s toxic.


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    Max wrote:

    The Body of Christ better wake up soon – the reformers are coming to a church near you (if they are not already there). Help you children steer clear of them.

    Yes, they are coming and may already be in your church.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    like never communicating

    I disagree with you a little there. I think they are all for on-way, top-down communication!

    I stand corrected!


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    R2 wrote:

    That is so icky. I can’t imagine a man who has any empathy for his wife discussion his preferences in the bedroom in public. Or even in private.

    I know. Are you familiar with preacher Mark Driscoll, formerly of Seattle’s “Mars Hill” church, now in AZ?

    The guy was all about spelling out specific sex acts and saying those were what all men prefer, so Christian wives should shut up and put out the way men want it. Driscoll even quoted Biblical text to back his views.

    He wrote a book called “Real Marriage” where he promoted the notion that females should cater to male sexual fethishes and preferences.


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    Max wrote:

    What makes you think a New Calvinist complemenatarian would provide an honest answer to a prospective wife in this regard? Good Lord, if they will deceive their way into a pulpit, they would lie about their comp persuasion. As in the case of a church takeover, the truth will be revealed later in a wife takeover.

    They’re too dumb to do it well? I’m sure there are some that are very good at pretending, but the guys like this that have hit on me do it very badly. And they really believe I’m going to be dumber than them, and fall at their feet.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I’d also add he’s being dishonest. It’s not egalitarians who have “ulterior motives” (they are pretty straight forward with saying what they believe and why), and it’s comps using the Trinity to push a view of gender, not so much egalitarians.

    This is so true.

    And ideas are right or wrong, regardless of motivation.


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    @ Max:
    Some comp guys will lie on dating sites to snooker women into dating them, but some are very upfront.

    It depends on the invidual guy. Some women on dating sites are upfront about being egal, and the comp men will debate them over the dating site.

    This blog did a post with one such example, a comp guy who kept trying to argue with an egal lady that she was a big, fat heretic for rejecting comp.

    But I have read anecdotes online by Christian women who say the man presented himself as being egalitarian or feminist when they met, but after they got married, or dated awhile, the guy would eventually admit he was a sexist, cavemen complementarian who demanded subservience from the woman.

    I’ve seen it go both ways – some of these comp men misrepresent their gender views, while others broadcast it loudly, even on their dating site profiles.


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    R2 wrote:

    That is so icky. I can’t imagine a man who has any empathy for his wife discussion his preferences in the bedroom in public. Or even in private.

    well apparently among male self-worshippers, this must be some kind of ‘sport’ . . . a way of publicly humiliating their wives; but are they also sending signals to other women about their own ‘needs’ and are they also crowing a bit so that their buddies will admire/be jealous their self-touted ‘male prowess’ in the marital bed?
    So very immature. Bunch of fraternity boyz.


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    Christiane wrote:

    well apparently among male self-worshippers, this must be some kind of ‘sport’ . . . a way of publicly humiliating their wives; but are they also sending signals to other women about their own ‘needs’ and are they also crowing a bit so that their buddies will admire/be jealous their self-touted ‘male prowess’ in the marital bed?
    So very immature. Bunch of fraternity boyz.

    Driscoll is especially creepy in that they both had sex before marriage, but he publicly humiliated her about it, saying that her sin was ruining their marriage, but without pointing out his own errors at all.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I think that singles engaging in extra marital sex can be damaging to other people in other ways, like to one’s future spouse. There are or can be emotional ramifications, comparing your current sweetie to previous lovers, STDs, etc.

    Aside from STDs, I have to say I don’t really agree. Maybe if you get married very young, you will have a clean slate? But once you hit your 30’s, you have previous relationships and the emotions are there whether the sex was or not.


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    ishy wrote:

    Driscoll is especially creepy in that they both had sex before marriage, but he publicly humiliated her about it, saying that her sin was ruining their marriage

    It is really, really inappropriate for him to talk about that sort of thing in public at all, let alone to blame her for something he also did.


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    ishy wrote:

    Driscoll is especially creepy in that they both had sex before marriage, but he publicly humiliated her about it, saying that her sin was ruining their marriage, but without pointing out his own errors at all.

    How do you say ‘low-class cad’ in Christianese? What a foolish man. Could his wife ever respect him after that kind of betrayal of her dignity? He’s a little short, not very good-looking man, and Grace is a beautiful woman. Why does he try to knock her down publicly? It doesn’t make sense. Well, I suppose ‘icky’ and ‘sick’ will have to do for now, but what IS such a man? What is going on inside his head???? Poor Grace.


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    A little OT, but this is a little entertainment for Mirele as she continue her vigil outside Mark Driscoll’s church.

    Apparently a new career path for Mars Hill’s former PR guy:

    http://www.doxa.media/bad-press-proof-your-church/


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    Christiane wrote:

    Why does he try to knock her down publicly? It doesn’t make sense. Well, I suppose ‘icky’ and ‘sick’ will have to do for now, but what IS such a man? What is going on inside his head???? Poor Grace.

    Everything I read, see, and hear from him points to him being a textbook narcissist. All those people hurt at Mars Hill, and he goes right back out and starts a new church with the exact same methods.


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    @ Lea:

    “Actually, that’s a common theme from this type – they think everything a woman does is because of men. It’s not.”
    ++++++++++++

    fellas, it’s 105 degrees.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    caroline wrote:

    I still have a hard time understanding the motivations of the women who tolerate it or, like Courtney Reissig, promote it.

    Stockholm Syndrome?

    They get to be the Wives in the new order. They have privileges the Marthas and the Handmaids don’t have. (See “The Handmaid’s Tale.”) But they’re still trapped.


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    ishy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Why does he try to knock her down publicly? It doesn’t make sense. Well, I suppose ‘icky’ and ‘sick’ will have to do for now, but what IS such a man? What is going on inside his head???? Poor Grace.
    Everything I read, see, and hear from him points to him being a textbook narcissist. All those people hurt at Mars Hill, and he goes right back out and starts a new church with the exact same methods.

    Well, he doesn’t have earning potential doing anything else so it’s back to his usual sales pitch.


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    Christiane wrote:

    How do you say ‘low-class cad’ in Christianese? What a foolish man. Could his wife ever respect him after that kind of betrayal of her dignity? He’s a little short, not very good-looking man, and Grace is a beautiful woman.

    True that, I’ve always thought his appearance was rather porcine. Interesting thing is you look at pictures of him as a young man, back in the 80s, and he was rather handsome (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/24/6050155/megachurch-pastor-mark-driscoll-was-an-evangelical-rock-star-heres), just as C.J. Mahaney was the All-American boy in the 70s (https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/14/the-sex-abuse-scandal-that-devastated-a-suburban-megachurch-sovereign-grace-ministries/). I understand all of us age and lose something (have experienced a fair bit of that myself), but some people seem to look more and more ugly and pinched and cruel, more and more like their underlying person as the decades go by. I’ve known brothers and sisters in Christ who, even though they were old, there was something about their character and kindness that showed in the lines on their faces and they aged beautifully, can think of quite a few examples of this phenomenon. Can also think of the opposite side of the equation, such as a leader of my former neocal who, though in his early 40s, looked a good 20 years older–and his poor spouse looked completely worn out and aged way beyond her years. This phenomenon appears to happening to Driscoll and has very much occurred with Mahaney–how do you get from 1976 Mahaney to 2016 Mahaney? Possibly by being a cruel, phony person.


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    My husband is a perfect example of how a husband provides for and protects his wife.

    He is going on a short mission trip soon, so he broke the semi-auto that I carry (the one I use the most) down and cleaned it good for me! He said, “I was afraid you may need it while I’m gone. So, I wanted to make sure we have everything in good working order.”

    I wonder …. Do comp men do things like that for their wives?

    BTW, Allie still has a turkey-gobble neck, but other than that, she is back to her old self!


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    Velour wrote:

    Well, he doesn’t have earning potential doing anything else so it’s back to his usual sales pitch.

    I understand he still makes quite a bit through his website and books, but I think he’s the sort of person that really believes that everyone else is wrong and he is right.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Grace is a beautiful woman. Why does he try to knock her down publicly? It doesn’t make sense.

    My question is, “Why does she allow it??????!!!!!!!”


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    Christiane wrote:

    one of my heroes was Anna’s brother who wanted her to leave ‘that _ _ _ ‘ (rhymes with ‘dig’). I assume the brother was also brougt up in the patriarchy model, but he at least had empathy and love for his poor sister’s plight.

    Anna Duggar’s brother Daniel (Daniel?) and at least one sister left the Gothard lifestyle. Many are hoping that some of the Duggar kids will too.


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    Jerome wrote:

    The figure skating fanboy was Piper pal John Ensor:
    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/an-olympic-lesson-for-husbands-and-wives
    It’s the pairs event he’s especially fixated on:
    “He leads her onto the ice and initiates each part of their routine. She receives that leadership and trusts in his strength. His raw physical strength is more on display than hers…”

    I guess he doesn’t realize that single female skaters can do amazing jumps on their own. Of course, since they’re just female, he probably doesn’t watch when they’re on.


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    mirele wrote:

    (See “The Handmaid’s Tale.”) But they’re still trapped.

    that book, that movie !!! the horror of watching all the women grab the rope and start pulling to hang the poor victim

    yeah, WHY DO women allow what is happening to them in patriarchy? At least in the dystopian world of the Handmaids, the choice was ‘submit’ or ‘die’.
    WHAT keeps patriarchal women coming back for more?


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    Lea wrote:

    I heard about the ice skating one (which was annoying mostly because the women are really athletic too and that wasn’t acknowledged but also because figure skating is a ROUTINE. It’s a dance, it’s choreographed and it’s no more than 5 or 6 minutes long. Idiots), but not this tennis one! That is pretty outrageous.

    It annoys the heck out of me when people say that figure skating isn’t athletic. It’s very, very hard and extremely physical!

    Okay, rant over. Carry on.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    There are all sorts of pathological patterns.

    Thanks for pointing out that the ancient battle between the sexes is not as cut-and-dried and as one-dimensional as some would have it.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    i truly believe that professional christians, whether knowingly or not, manufacture all kinds of problems and issues between people and God and between people and people. tasks and to-do’s and formulas are invented, and sold as the path to God & to success if you embrace them, or grave consequences if you do not. all this creates jobs. gives them something to talk about. the means to make money. the means to carve out significance for themselves.
    i really don’t think the pursuit of God is hard.
    it’s dang mysterious, but so what. God is invisible so of course it’s going to be mysterious. let’s let that one go and be ok with it.

    Yes, yes, and yes!


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    ishy wrote:

    I don’t know that I would read too much into this. My secular classical choir uses the same arrangement. The reason they do is that there are a lot less men and the sound doesn’t balance otherwise.

    Re: Charles Stanley’s choir. Yeah, I can understand if there are a lot fewer men, but it doesn’t look that way with his choir. I could be wrong….


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    Lea wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    Right now I’m spending my Sunday mornings in front of Mark Driscoll’s attempt to reinvent himself in Scottsdale.

    I think that’s fantastic! I hope you don’t think I’m trying to send you back to church. Just curious.

    No, you’re fine. Years and years ago, when I made a regular practice of picketing Scientology, one of my friends, who is a professor of anthropology and studies religion, told me that I’d made my picketing into a spiritual practice, because I believed so much in the goodness of letting people know there were serious problems with Scientology via standing outside the local Org with a sign.

    When I talk to people out in front of Driscoll’s place, I make it very clear that I’m not telling them to not go to church. I am saying that if they want to go to church, there are plenty of conservative churches in Scottsdale which don’t have the baggage which come along with Mark Driscoll and “The Trinity Church.”

    My only real complaint in this is I wish they’d get done with the widening on the freeway. I’m tired of taking rocks in my windshield (I’ve already had to replace it once and I’ve only had the SUV four months). Otherwise, I’m really of the opinion that the truth will set people free, or, in this case, keep them from what is likely to turn out to be Seattle Part Two.


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    Oh and by the way, what church needs a “Security Team”?

    SECURITY TEAM: Along with the launch of Trinity Kids, we need to launch a security team as well. This team will keep an eye on the kids area”The Backyard” as well as the rest of the property. Additionally they will be the first responders if there is any kind of incident. They will serve for the duration of one service. Men and women can both be on this team. For full coverage, we would like to have four volunteers per service, per week. A background check is required to serve on this team.

    Maybe I should apply. I know I can pass a background check…hahahahahahahah


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I can only speak for the ones I know and have known. They fall into two basic categories: women who are afraid of displeasing God and women who believe that the System will enhance the likelihood that they will get a “good” husband who will be a protector and nurturer.

    Gram3 wrote:

    I think that once you have bought into the System, the only way to realize any kind of personhood as a woman is to become SuperComp

    I really had to do some scrolling to find these points, but I just wanted to thank Gram3. These really help to explain why some women buy into this comp nonsense. As for me, I was just too ornery as a child to fall for it.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    mirele,
    Have you ever thought that just maybe you are doing what God is leading you to do?

    Well, *possibly*. I know the big thing among the churched is “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” (Hebrews 10:25 KJV), which is interpreted as “don’t skip church.” I just know that it’s important to let people know that Mark Driscoll has a lot of unresolved issues and he really should return to Seattle and fix what he broke before starting up another church. If that’s God’s will…

    I will say this, it’s probably NOT God’s will to sleep in on a Sunday morning LOL.


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    mirele wrote:

    Oh and by the way, what church needs a “Security Team”?

    Wow! Is that to keep people out, or to keep people in?


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    Daisy wrote:

    He wrote a book called “Real Marriage” where he promoted the notion that females should cater to male sexual fethishes and preferences.

    That’s one of the things I talk about when people ask me why I’m out in front of Driscoll’s new outfit. Not so much the sex, but the fact that he used church money to hire ResultSource and game the New York Times bestseller list.


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    @ Gram3:

    BINGO!


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    Regarding Courtney Reissig’s other article, I actually agreed with some of it, especially her point that being a SAHM is not something a wife should have to “earn” to the satisfaction of people outside her marriage. Where I think there may be an issue is her application of Genesis 3 to the point that every Christian couple is obligated to have children if able. I don’t know if the CBMW crowd are also quiverfull in their ideology, which would raise questions for how at least some of them have lived their lives.


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    Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    A little OT, but this is a little entertainment for Mirele as she continue her vigil outside Mark Driscoll’s church.

    Apparently a new career path for Mars Hill’s former PR guy:

    http://www.doxa.media/bad-press-proof-your-church/

    I notice it doesn’t talk about “How to deal with that persistent middle-aged woman who stands with a sign on the public sidewalk every Sunday.” I would note that neither Driscoll nor his official staff (the ones with the lanyards) have come out to talk to me. You’d think after three months they would have figured out that I don’t bite.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    It annoys the heck out of me when people say that figure skating isn’t athletic. It’s very, very hard and extremely physical!

    Okay, rant over. Carry on.

    Clueless talkers and arm chair quarterbacks annoy me to no end too.


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    Mirele, I forget which megachurch in Colorado it was where some gunman came in to shoot people. He was shot dead by a female security guard. I’m still glad the church had the foresight to hire her.


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    mirele wrote:

    I know the big thing among the churched is “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” (Hebrews 10:25 KJV), which is interpreted as “don’t skip church.”

    Yes, that Scripture is over-worked these days; the “Dones” are obviously done with the loose interpretation of that passage about skipping church. If you can find the real Church meeting in your area (the genuine Bride of Christ), then don’t forsake assembling with it! However, we are living in a day when believers need to balance that Scripture with “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins” (Revelation 18:4 KJV). Contrary to what Calvinists teach, believers have a will in this regard and need to exercise it by either joining it or leaving it! Not every institution called church is ‘the’ Church. The American church in far too many places resembles Babylon, rather than the Church of the Living God. TWW provides a steady stream of evidence supporting that observation.


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    @ JYJames and Lydia,

    Lydia, your comment encapsulates a present reality!

    “It pains me to even think we are exporting something that embeds and affirms such brutality in a culture because they interpret head as boss/authority. Seeing women as lesser beings does not translate into protection as they claim. Their view of themselves as in authority actually harms their soul and spiritual growth.

    I met some Kenyan Anglican priests last summer who are advocating for women to develop ALL their spiritual gifts for the edification of the entire body. Their pleading prayers for women made me cry.”

    It was both heartening and heart-rending to hear of your Kenyan contacts and their plea. Do you have any contact information for these folks in Kenya?

    I was invited over a year ago to come and speak at an inter-denominational pastors and church leaders conference in April, 2016. It was an amazing opportunity given by a progressive thinking brother who is an overseer for a network of churches. I was invited by him to teach on the topic of: Biblical Gender Equality, for their 4 day conference.

    There was receiving of God’s Word and decisions made in hearts to make a change and embrace the teaching on mutuality as a biblical ideal. On the last day, three of the leaders stood on the platform. The one brother led on behalf of all the brothers to apologize to all the sisters there for following cultural ways rather than God’s Word. They immediately applied what they had received as God’s truth for men and women in Christian community. It was a humble and heart-felt gesture that was a highlight of my time with Christian Family in Kenya.

    I describe my experience in this article on my Church Exiters website:

    @ http://www.churchexiters.com/2016/05/women-in-the-church-exploring-biblical-gender-equality-in-a-kenyan-context/

    While at this conference, I was implored twice, by a young Ugandan pastor, to ‘please come and teach this in Uganda’! I said, we’ll see what the Lord might have in mind. So, in God’s providence, I am presently working with my contact in Kenya, Bishop Chris Lusweti, as plans are coming together for me to speak in Uganda in early Nov. My heart was not at peace until I knew that I was going back!

    Thanks for prayers for this event. If anyone would like to assist financially there is a need to provide food for our brothers and sisters at these conferences–since poverty dominates. People drive many hours to come to a conference and food is provided for them. Those who come from the west to do a conference are required to fund the meals for those who attend. It is a joy to be able to support such a Kingdom adventure. Maybe you’d like to join me in this venture.

    I invite the TWW Community to be a part of this solution to patriarchy in Africa and empower ‘Family’ there, who have a hunger for God’s Word, to get their own answers.

    If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, you can contact me through my website email: info@churchexiters.com


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    mirele wrote:

    Patty in Massachusetts wrote:
    A little OT, but this is a little entertainment for Mirele as she continue her vigil outside Mark Driscoll’s church.
    Apparently a new career path for Mars Hill’s former PR guy:
    http://www.doxa.media/bad-press-proof-your-church/
    I notice it doesn’t talk about “How to deal with that persistent middle-aged woman who stands with a sign on the public sidewalk every Sunday.” I would note that neither Driscoll nor his official staff (the ones with the lanyards) have come out to talk to me. You’d think after three months they would have figured out that I don’t bite.

    Bad press proof your church. Nah,that’s just hogwash!
    Hey, Mark Driscoll! The best way to bad-press-proof-your-church is to behave yourself!!!!!


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    Max wrote:

    If you can find the real Church meeting in your area (the genuine Bride of Christ), then don’t forsake assembling with it!

    Jesus wasn’t standing in a pulpit when he gave “the Sermon on the Mount”.


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    mirele wrote:

    Oh and by the way, what church needs a “Security Team”?

    Churches who know they’ve offended a lot of people?


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    Lea wrote:

    It is really, really inappropriate for him to talk about that sort of thing in public at all, let alone to blame her for something he also did.

    Since when has he cared about being appropriate, though?
    I’m wondering if people actually get a vicarious satisfaction out of this? Is he saying what his followers want to say but don’t have the guts?
    I guess I just keep wondering what attracts people to these fools.


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    andrew wrote:

    “those who are opposed to unorthodox, or heretical teachings have my respect…” isn’t that kind of an obvious statement?

    When someone states something that anyone would assume is obvious, that should not need to be stated, it is often a tell that they believe the opposite.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    how and why does the pursuit of God devolve into a tyranny?

    i guess first off there must be a tyrant. (thinking out loud here)

    what is it about the pursuit of God that activates tyrants and activates a following for said tyrant?

    Good questions all. Probably best pursued over on the open discussion thread.


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    @ Patriciamc:
    I was an ornery kid, too. Still am, but Gramp3 knows how to work around that. 🙂


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    Lea wrote:

    Maybe if you get married very young, you will have a clean slate? But once you hit your 30’s, you have previous relationships and the emotions are there whether the sex was or not.

    And weather you have sex or not, sex is made to be the most important aspect of the relationship. In my opinion, sexual activity should not be put on a pedestal either way.


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    @ Bridget:

    This part especially –

    “Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be abusive without displaying rage. In fact, the very worst abusers I have ever encountered were never angry. The calm and collected man out to exact absolute control is the most dangerous, because he can toe the line between legal and illegal, between socially acceptable and unacceptable. He can always appear the good guy, while he calmly destroys the psyche of his victim.”

    The article does point out that women are capable of “control issues” as well.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Jesus wasn’t standing in a pulpit when he gave “the Sermon on the Mount”.

    Quite correct. Jesus ‘was’ the pulpit! The difficult thing is locating where Jesus goes to church. When you find it, you know it!


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    Daisy wrote:

    There is an obsession with explaining or promoting marriage or giving marital advice

    …and, by extension, sex. I have only visited megachurches a few times and listened a few times online over the last few years, but without exception the messages have all been about marriage relationships/sex. I suspect it is a marketing strategy. Appeal to the lowest denominator of the broadest group and fill the most seats. Sex sells.


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    @ Daisy:

    “Further, Christian men feel the need to spell out in great detail the very sort of sexual positions or acts that all dudes prefer (Mark Driscoll really got into this).

    I’ve never yet heard a Christian preacher describe in detail the sorts of sexual acts wives would like their spouses to perform on them and tell the husbands to get to that pronto.”
    +++++++++++++++

    christian culture is going through a delayed sexual revolution (late to the game as usual; in this case, 50 years overdue). it’s only for men, though. (obviously at cross-purposes, but they miss that)

    maybe this is revenge for women’s liberation. at the very least finding redemption for it.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    @ Patriciamc:
    I was an ornery kid, too. Still am, but Gramp3 knows how to work around that.

    Well, there’s the ice cream. It would work for me!


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    Barb Orlowski wrote:

    I was invited over a year ago to come and speak at an inter-denominational pastors and church leaders conference in April, 2016. It was an amazing opportunity given by a progressive thinking brother who is an overseer for a network of churches. I was invited by him to teach on the topic of: Biblical Gender Equality, for their 4 day conference.
    There was receiving of God’s Word and decisions made in hearts to make a change and embrace the teaching on mutuality as a biblical ideal. On the last day, three of the leaders stood on the platform. The one brother led on behalf of all the brothers to apologize to all the sisters there for following cultural ways rather than God’s Word. They immediately applied what they had received as God’s truth for men and women in Christian community. It was a humble and heart-felt gesture that was a highlight of my time with Christian Family in Kenya.
    I describe my experience in this article on my Church Exiters website:
    @ http://www.churchexiters.com/2016/05/women-in-the-church-exploring-biblical-gender-equality-in-a-kenyan-context/
    While at this conference, I was implored twice, by a young Ugandan pastor, to ‘please come and teach this in Uganda’! I said, we’ll see what the Lord might have in mind. So, in God’s providence, I am presently working with my contact in Kenya, Bishop Chris Lusweti, as plans are coming together for me to speak in Uganda in early Nov. My heart was not at peace until I knew that I was going back!

    Wow. Those are people who actually listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    christian culture is going through a delayed sexual revolution

    That’s an interesting thought. siteseer wrote:

    I have only visited megachurches a few times and listened a few times online over the last few years, but without exception the messages have all been about marriage relationships/sex.

    I’ll add that my last visit to gateway the sermon was on marriage. They threw a teensy tinsy bone to single people with some sort of ‘you’ll totally find someone’ thing thrown in. Whatever.


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    Max wrote:

    The difficult thing is locating where Jesus goes to church. When you find it, you know it!

    “For where ever two or three are gathered in my name ………”


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    “For where ever two or three are gathered in my name ………”

    Grrrr ……l just want to point out something. Jesus did not say, “Where ever two or three MEN are gathered in my name…. “, either! He wasn’t “gender specific”!


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    Jeannette Altes, long time poster here, just posted about her financial needs on the Open Discussion board. Her rent of $585 is due. She will also need food and gas money.

    She lost her job, is being treated for a tumor, and is looking for work.

    Today’s status.
    I am continuing to look for ways to make money…and working on not being afraid (ha!).
    I still need $330 to cover July’s rent, and July’s bills start coming due in a week ($500 for usual plus another $150 for 2 yearly bills coming due). Plus the ongoing need for food and gas, living….
    With all that is going on, the anniversary of my mom’s passing snuck up on me and the emotions there caught me off guard. Sigh. I am a survivor, however, and I am not going to give up.
    The financial help you all have given still overwhelms me and the notes of encouragement and prayers are very much appreviated. You all are so special. THANK YOU!!
    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    “Further, Christian men feel the need to spell out in great detail the very sort of sexual positions or acts that all dudes prefer (Mark Driscoll really got into this).
    I’ve never yet heard a Christian preacher describe in detail the sorts of sexual acts wives would like their spouses to perform on them and tell the husbands to get to that pronto.”
    +++++++++++++++
    christian culture is going through a delayed sexual revolution (late to the game as usual; in this case, 50 years overdue). it’s only for men, though. (obviously at cross-purposes, but they miss that)
    maybe this is revenge for women’s liberation. at the very least finding redemption for it.

    I really resent that these NeoCalvinist pastors spend so much time talking about sex from the pulpit. They are crass and bizarre. They seem to like to hold an audience hostage.

    My ex-NeoCalvinist, abusive pastor pulled this stunt no less at an Easter service. There were people who were new and visiting in town for Easter. They were so outraged they got up and walked out, and I should have as well! Sex talk at Easter.

    He was one crass, bizarre person with ZERO manners. A liar and a bully. Countless former members accused him of lying. (He also lied about his job history claiming a job at a well known church that the senior pastor called “a lie” and said he only volunteered and claimed a teaching credential that the State of CA said was also “a lie” and they’d never issued a teaching credential to anyone with his name!)


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    NJ wrote:

    Regarding Courtney Reissig’s other article, I actually agreed with some of it, especially her point that being a SAHM is not something a wife should have to “earn” to the satisfaction of people outside her marriage. Where I think there may be an issue is her application of Genesis 3 to the point that every Christian couple is obligated to have children if able. I don’t know if the CBMW crowd are also quiverfull in their ideology, which would raise questions for how at least some of them have lived their lives.

    True enough. There is a lot of hostility aimed sometimes at stay-at-home moms. On the other hand, the same is true for stay-at-home dads. I think that every couple has to decide what’s best for their family and their circumstances and should be respected for doing that.


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    Velour wrote:

    NJ wrote:
    Regarding Courtney Reissig’s other article, I actually agreed with some of it, especially her point that being a SAHM is not something a wife should have to “earn” to the satisfaction of people outside her marriage. Where I think there may be an issue is her application of Genesis 3 to the point that every Christian couple is obligated to have children if able. I don’t know if the CBMW crowd are also quiverfull in their ideology, which would raise questions for how at least some of them have lived their lives.
    True enough. There is a lot of hostility aimed sometimes at stay-at-home moms. On the other hand, the same is true for stay-at-home dads. I think that every couple has to decide what’s best for their family and their circumstances and should be respected for doing that.

    My brother isn’t a Christian, but his dream is to be a stay-at-home dad.


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    Velour wrote:

    True enough. There is a lot of hostility aimed sometimes at stay-at-home moms. On the other hand, the same is true for stay-at-home dads. I think that every couple has to decide what’s best for their family and their circumstances and should be respected for doing that.

    Have you checked into the costs of child care lately? In many instances, family is financially better off if one stays at home with the kids.
    And with C. Reissig, if she is in a paid position, she isn’t exactly a SAHM. She worked from home.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I’d also add he’s being dishonest. It’s not egalitarians who have “ulterior motives” (they are pretty straight forward with saying what they believe and why), and it’s comps using the Trinity to push a view of gender, not so much egalitarians.

    He’s projecting what “his side” is guilty of on to his opponents.

    Bingo. ‘Projecting’ in his case appears to be consciously done …. I think he is very aware, as ALL these hyper-comp men are, of using ESS to promote a way of life that results from Adam and Eve cooperating with satan. God did NOT prescribe domination/submission as a REMEDY for Eden’s sin. He pointed it out as a CONSEQUENCE of sin.

    The ESS hyper-comps have assumed that which is not theirs to assume. They are enforcing a consequence of sin on women. They are most surely agents of darkness in this misbegotten destructive work.


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    I’m scrolling down that old Wade comment section on lil miss Courtney and found this doozy. I’ve heard ‘woman was deceived’ but not this particular spin. Heaven help us! Adam sinned willingly so he should obviously have all the responsibility.

    “Secondly: The New Testament teaches that wives are to submit to the leadership of their husbands (not women to men) because Adam was not deceived but knowingly and blatantly sinned against God–and was punished the greater for it by being assigned the horrible responsibility of never leading his family wrongly again but answering for it at Judgment. “


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    Bridget wrote:

    And weather you have sex or not, sex is made to be the most important aspect of the relationship. In my opinion, sexual activity should not be put on a pedestal either way.

    GASP…! You mean we should rethink it in terms of a responsible pragmatism instead of the mystical forbidden fruit plinth it occupies in evangelical culture???
    Pure Heresy!


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    Lea wrote:

    “Secondly: The New Testament teaches that wives are to submit to the leadership of their husbands (not women to men) because Adam was not deceived but knowingly and blatantly sinned against God–and was punished the greater for it by being assigned the horrible responsibility of never leading his family wrongly again but answering for it at Judgment. “

    Book, chapter, and verse, please? I wonder if that is somewhere in Acts 29, too?


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    Lea wrote:

    The New Testament teaches that wives are to submit to the leadership of their husbands (not women to men) because Adam was not deceived but knowingly and blatantly sinned against God–and was punished the greater for it by being assigned the horrible responsibility of never leading his family wrongly again but answering for it at Judgment.

    I think if someone really believed that, they wouldn’t say the things about women that they do, and they’d be really afraid of doing things wrong. Most of these guys don’t seem to have any fear at all.


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    @ Lowlandseer:
    MoS took comments on that post!


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    @ Nancy2:
    My kind of guy!


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    Christiane wrote:

    The ESS hyper-comps have assumed that which is not theirs to assume.

    They do this with everything. Pick any topic that they promote and you will find this common thread. We commoners need to challenge their assumptions.


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    @ elastigirl:
    One of my favorite bloggers on another blog says something similar about the Neo Cals. They give him answers to problems he does not have. :o)


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    Lea wrote:

    “Secondly: The New Testament teaches that wives are to submit to the leadership of their husbands (not women to men) because Adam was not deceived but knowingly and blatantly sinned against God–and was punished the greater for it by being assigned the horrible responsibility of never leading his family wrongly again but answering for it at Judgment. “

    That part of the man answering to God is nowhere in scripture. Plus, and I’m no theologian, but if someone is answerable like that, then what does that mean for
    Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? I thought that we stand innocent before God because of Christ’s sacrifice (if we believe in Christ). Right? So how can someone be answerable?


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    @ Patriciamc:

    Hmmmm. I must have accidentally hit Return above.


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    @ Barb Orlowski:
    Maybe the Deebs can send you my email. Will be happy to direct you to the right place.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Pure Heresy!

    🙂


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    @ Patriciamc:
    The only way I could figure it was they believe they answer for their wives and the wife answers for her submission or not, to the Lord.

    How else could their extra biblical construct work?


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    ishy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Well, he doesn’t have earning potential doing anything else so it’s back to his usual sales pitch.
    I understand he still makes quite a bit through his website and books, but I think he’s the sort of person that really believes that everyone else is wrong and he is right.

    Spot on. Mark Driscoll still believes that the people he abused owe him apologies.
    He has some kinda nerve!

    Here is the website for some of the former pastors/elders at Mars Hill who have
    repented: http://repentantpastor.com/


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    True enough. There is a lot of hostility aimed sometimes at stay-at-home moms. On the other hand, the same is true for stay-at-home dads. I think that every couple has to decide what’s best for their family and their circumstances and should be respected for doing that.
    Have you checked into the costs of child care lately? In many instances, family is financially better off if one stays at home with the kids.
    And with C. Reissig, if she is in a paid position, she isn’t exactly a SAHM. She worked from home.

    Oh, I agree with you about the costs of child care, etc. I just don’t buy the Comp argument that it *has* to be the mother who stays home. I really think that every couple is the best judge of their circumstances, earning potential, etc.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    True enough. There is a lot of hostility aimed sometimes at stay-at-home moms. On the other hand, the same is true for stay-at-home dads. I think that every couple has to decide what’s best for their family and their circumstances and should be respected for doing that.
    Have you checked into the costs of child care lately? In many instances, family is financially better off if one stays at home with the kids.
    And with C. Reissig, if she is in a paid position, she isn’t exactly a SAHM. She worked from home.

    Oh, I agree with you about the costs of child care, etc. I just don’t buy the Comp argument that it *has* to be the mother who stays home. I really think that every couple is the best judge of their circumstances, earning potential, etc. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Tim Fall has a knack for knocking these guys out of the water in a nice way and honing in on Biblical truths that refute their nonsense.
    Lifeguard Tim Fall, rescuing these guys from drowning in a sea of estrogen?

    Tim Fall is rescuing them from their own STUPIDITY (and don’t we all know it!).


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    ^OK. No clue what just happened there. Response was to Nancy2 about Tim Fall. Thx.


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    One thing I’m guessing is that Reissig as a female editor probably has to “submit” her articles to a male “head” editor before publication for the purpose of making sure that her ideas align completely with the men’s. Although she seems so much in the thick of it, that probably anything she would say would be potentially aligned.

    Beware, CBMW, these women, these daughters of Eve, are tricky and may deceive you. Reissig may not be as much under your thumb as you imagine. 😉


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    I have to wonder how the CBMW and the rest of the comps are dealing with the fact that for the first time in American history, there are more single adults in the USA than married adults. (This has been the case since 2009.) Their “gospel” is wrapped up completely in gender roles based on certain verses, which are, IMHO, taken out of context. How is this “gospel” supposed to relate to adults who are not married, and who may have no intention of ever marrying?

    Is the gospel of CBMW limited only to the married? What about evangelizing the whole world? Oh yeah, I forgot, they’re neo-Calvinists. They’re not worried about that.


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    @ Patriciamc:
    what of being answerable to one’s private conscience before God?
    A submissive wife get told (commanded) by her ‘Christian’ husband to do that which she knows violates her God-given conscience . . .
    in Neo-Cal Land,
    what ARE her options?

    I know what they are in Christendom, but these hyper-neo-Cals have a whole thought-system all their own

    at least some of the pain of these women must be that they are involved in activities that are repugnant to their consciences . . . and nothing is so egregiously harmful to the personhood of a human being as to be denied the guidance of their own conscience before God


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    mirele wrote:

    I have to wonder how the CBMW and the rest of the comps are dealing with the fact that for the first time in American history, there are more single adults in the USA than married adults. (This has been the case since 2009.) Their “gospel” is wrapped up completely in gender roles based on certain verses, which are, IMHO, taken out of context. How is this “gospel” supposed to relate to adults who are not married, and who may have no intention of ever marrying?
    Is the gospel of CBMW limited only to the married? What about evangelizing the whole world? Oh yeah, I forgot, they’re neo-Calvinists. They’re not worried about that.

    I don’t know about not wanting to ever be married. But in most of the churches I’ve been to, the singles groups were heavily female. I think more singles guys come to services and don’t get involved. I had a conversation once with a Catholic who said there were a lot of single guys at his church, and no single women, and we thought maybe different churches appealed to different genders. It’s an interesting thing to ponder at least.

    I posted an article in open discussion. Church is trying to out the names of young underage girls for suing the church for allowing a known sex offender work VBS.


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    I just got an email from Driscoll.

    His outfit has bought the old Glass and Garden Church. I looked on the Maricopa Tax Assessor’s website and it has not yet been updated to indicate the new owner. I can say this, though. For 2017, the assessed Full Cash Value of the property is $21,265,300. The Limited Property Value is $14,508,167.

    He’s got some serious money behind him, that’s all I have to say. Except, “I’ll be out there on Sunday with bells on!”


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    @ mirele:

    Is this the same building they currently reside in?


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    Bridget wrote:

    Is this the same building they currently reside in?

    Yes.

    Back in the Dark Ages, I worked in commercial real estate. Granted, church lending is not commercial real estate lending, but man, I have so many questions. SO MANY.

    The thing is, the church building is old (50 years). It’s the land that is very valuable.


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    @ mirele:

    Where in the world did he get that much money or the wherewithal to finance the purchase?


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    mirele wrote:

    I just got an email from Driscoll.

    And what is the story behind this? Did you get on an informational mail list for the church?


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    The word “winsome” is overused?! I don’t think I’ve ever heard it spoken by any living person. But I probably move in different circles.

    Anyway, all this stuff is giving me lots of ideas for my new fanfic, “Complementarians of Gor.”

    Complementarianism: the Manosphere at prayer!


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    Bridget wrote:

    Where in the world did he get that much money or the wherewithal to finance the purchase?

    That’s one of the questions I have!


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    Bridget wrote:

    And what is the story behind this? Did you get on an informational mail list for the church?

    Yup, I subscribed myself to the church’s e-mail list so I could keep track of his doings. I attend every Sunday, I should know what’s going on, right? (Attend-stand on the sidewalk)


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    @ ishy:

    It’s the accountabilibuddies.


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    @ mirele:

    You are a super trooper!! Bless you for warning people about Driscoll dangers.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’ll add that my last visit to gateway the sermon was on marriage. They threw a teensy tinsy bone to single people with some sort of ‘you’ll totally find someone’ thing thrown in. Whatever.

    “You’ll totally find someone,” they say, [unless you’re gay, then you can’t have a relationship, like ever, and we’ll ignore you until you ‘slip up,’ at which point we’ll disown / shun / excommunicate you because you failed at flawlessly implementing our unfunded mandate of celibacy]. But I digress… And don’t forget the straight singles who can’t or simply don’t want to find someone. But there’s just no room for us, living in a complementarian paradise, so we’re cast aside.


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    mirele wrote:

    Mark Driscoll … His outfit has bought the old Glass and Garden Church … For 2017, the assessed Full Cash Value of the property is $21,265,300.

    Whew! There’s more to that story!! There must be some deep pockets in those handful of cars that have been showing up for Sunday services!


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    That part of the man answering to God is nowhere in scripture. Plus, and I’m no theologian, but if someone is answerable like that, then what does that mean for
    Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? I thought that we stand innocent before God because of Christ’s sacrifice (if we believe in Christ). Right? So how can someone be answerable?

    Here’s the part that gets me: Is Reissig saying that men are being punished for Adam’s sin in the fall by God assigning them responsibility for and authority over women?
    Did anyone else get that from what she said?


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    Max wrote:

    Whew! There’s more to that story!! There must be some deep pockets in those handful of cars that have been showing up for Sunday services!

    Or, maybe he has some Mars Hill money stashed somewhere!


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    ishy wrote:

    But in most of the churches I’ve been to, the singles groups were heavily female. I think more singles guys come to services and don’t get involved.

    Well, in most SBC churches I’ve been to, if it wasn’t for faithful Southern Baptist women over the years, LOTS of them would have closed their doors. It’s been my experience (60+ years as a Southern Baptist) that women members are a whole lot more serious about their faith than men. Call a prayer meeting and mostly women will come. Ask for volunteers to teach Sunday School and mostly female hands are raised. Visiting hospital patients and shut-ins, yep the women. I would rather be in a fox-hole fighting devils with SBC women than most of the wimpy churchmen I’ve met. Baptist women appear to be more sensitive to the Holy Spirit, than men; while Baptist men enjoy fleshing out theo-politics. The New Calvinists are side-lining a spiritual dimension of the church that needs to be there when they subordinate women; when they do so, they cut the Body of Christ into pieces. I tell my wife all the time that she is one of the mostly godly men I know :-); we are complementarians in the sense that we complement each other in our walk of faith, each using the gifts God has given us freely.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:

    That part of the man answering to God is nowhere in scripture. Plus, and I’m no theologian, but if someone is answerable like that, then what does that mean for
    Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? I thought that we stand innocent before God because of Christ’s sacrifice (if we believe in Christ). Right? So how can someone be answerable?

    Here’s the part that gets me: Is Reissig saying that men are being punished for Adam’s sin in the fall by God assigning them responsibility for and authority over women?
    Did anyone else get that from what she said?

    Just to clarify, I don’t know if Courtney said anything about the adam thing…that was some random comment I just thought it was oddball enough to post.


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    @ Max:
    I just read your comment to my husband, and he absolutely concurs! He grew up Southern Baptist in rural North Carolina. He has told me time and time again that had it not been for the female members of his family (his mother, three old maid aunts, and a married aunt) along with other ladies in the congregation, the small Baptist church he grew up in would not have survived.

    What he doesn’t understand is twofold:

    WHY are Southern Baptist women allowing this to happen?

    WHEN are they going to put their foot (feet) down?

    Thank God I'm married to a man who supports my blogging efforts!


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    Deb wrote:

    What he doesn’t understand is twofold:

    WHY are Southern Baptist women allowing this to happen?

    WHEN are they going to put their foot (feet) down?

    Thank God I’m married to a man who supports my blogging efforts!

    Deb:

    Thank you for your blogging efforts. I also share your husband’s concerns. It is past time for SBC women to take a major stand in the SBC and sooner not later!


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    And to add to my husband’s commentary, his married aunt (mentioned previously) was very active in church until the day she died. As the church service was getting  underway one Sunday morning in the summer of 1989, the pastor said to the congregation: “Where’s Miss Maggie?” No one knew, but she never missed church.

    He told the congregation that the church service would have to be postponed because he had to leave right away to go check on her. (Now that's a true pastor!)

    When he and several others arrived at her home, they somehow got inside and found her dressed, Bible in hand, and dead in her recliner. She was on her way to church when the Lord called her home.

    I have always loved that story and have a fondness for country churches.


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    Lea wrote:

    Aside from STDs, I have to say I don’t really agree. Maybe if you get married very young, you will have a clean slate? But once you hit your 30’s, you have previous relationships and the emotions are there whether the sex was or not.

    I think having sex with another person adds more, or a certain type of emotion, into the mix.

    I was engaged to years for a guy, we spent time alone, but there was no hanky-panky. That’s not the same thing as a couple that “does it.”

    As I’ve tried explaining on here before, once the church acts blase’ about singles sex and/or brush off my virginity (over 40 yrs of age here, still abstaining) as though it’s meaningless and with no value-

    You’re basically not giving me any grounds or encouragement to keep on keeping on, so I figure I might as well become sexually active with the next boyfriend I get.

    And I really don’t see the Bible teaching that pre-marital relations are OK.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    BTW, Allie still has a turkey-gobble neck, but other than that, she is back to her old self!

    I am glad that she is doing better!


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    mirele wrote:

    Quoting something from Mark Driscoll’s church (if I’m understanding correctly):

    Men and women can both be on this team. For full coverage, we would like to have four volunteers per service, per week. A background check is required to serve on this team.

    How un-John Piper of him, to permit WOMEN to be on his church’s security team.

    That throws me off. He did pay some lip service about a year ago in an interview of wanting to come across not as sexist towards women.

    John Piper sure as hey does not think women should do anything like that, no karate, no self defense, not be police officers. Only men-folk should do that stuff. I wonder why Driscoll is wandering off course with that?


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    mirele wrote:

    That’s one of the things I talk about when people ask me why I’m out in front of Driscoll’s new outfit. Not so much the sex, but the fact that he used church money to hire ResultSource and game the New York Times bestseller list.

    That was certainly another controversy attached to that book for sure.


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    NJ wrote:

    Regarding Courtney Reissig’s other article, I actually agreed with some of it, especially her point that being a SAHM is not something a wife should have to “earn” to the satisfaction of people outside her marriage. Where I think there may be an issue is her application of Genesis 3 to the point that every Christian couple is obligated to have children if able. I don’t know if the CBMW crowd are also quiverfull in their ideology, which would raise questions for how at least some of them have lived their lives.

    The majority of her article, from what I can recall (I really do not want to have to reread it) was off base. She is taking her personal opinions about culture and motherhood and guilting and shaming any woman who does not have kids and have them young.

    There are women who cannot have kids, don’t want them, or who only want them at a certain age – it’s not Reissig’s place to lecture them on any of that or imply there’s something un-biblical, selfish, or wrong with women who chose to forgo to have kids or time them differently from her.


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    Daisy wrote:

    John Piper sure as hey does not think women should do anything like that, no karate, no self defense, not be police officers. Only men-folk should do that stuff. I wonder why Driscoll is wandering off course with that?

    Probably to avoid more lawsuits…


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    Deb wrote:

    He told the congregation that the church service would have to be postponed because he had to leave right away to go check on her. (Now that’s a true pastor!)

    When he and several others arrived at her home, they somehow got inside and found her dressed, Bible in hand, and dead in her recliner. She was on her way to church when the Lord called her home.

    the way of grace . . . . beautiful story! Thanks for sharing this


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    Bridget wrote:

    In my opinion, sexual activity should not be put on a pedestal either way.

    My understanding of the Bible was that sex was reserved for marriage, so I’ve abstained my whole life, since I’ve never married. That’s not putting it on a pedestal.


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    siteseer wrote:

    …and, by extension, sex. I have only visited megachurches a few times and listened a few times online over the last few years, but without exception the messages have all been about marriage relationships/sex. I suspect it is a marketing strategy. Appeal to the lowest denominator of the broadest group and fill the most seats. Sex sells.

    Those could be some of the reasons why they do what they do. All I know is when you’re sexually abstaining like I am, the last thing you want to sit through is ANOTHER kinkified Driscollian sermon or another middle of the road “Sex is great, designed by God, so married couples have more of it.”

    I’m still waiting for an entire sermon to be devoted to sexual abstinence of older (as in over the age of 30) adults. It never arrives.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    christian culture is going through a delayed sexual revolution (late to the game as usual; in this case, 50 years overdue). it’s only for men, though. (obviously at cross-purposes, but they miss that)

    I’ve read articles that say the assumptions by Christians of 200 or 300 years ago was the exact opposite of what it is today.

    The assumptions a few hundred years ago was that women had the larger sexual appetites, the men were more controlled and didn’t need or want sex as much. So guys back then were thought more moral than woman. Women were thought debased and rather vulgar for supposedly wanting sex.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’ll add that my last visit to gateway the sermon was on marriage. They threw a teensy tinsy bone to single people with some sort of ‘you’ll totally find someone’ thing thrown in. Whatever.

    The way I usually hear it, the preacher will tell the singles listening, “What I’m about to say about marriage will apply to you singles one day, so listen closely!”

    Or, “The marital advice I’m issuing can also be used in other relationships, singles, so listen and apply it to your boss or family.”

    (If their martial sermon advice is so nondescript as can be applicable to career, family and friendships too, why have marriage-centric sermons to start with, which excludes over half the U.S. population?)


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    Velour wrote:

    I really resent that these NeoCalvinist pastors spend so much time talking about sex from the pulpit. They are crass and bizarre. They seem to like to hold an audience hostage.

    Not that I’m disputing that, but it goes beyond the Neo Cals.

    IFB weirdo Jack Schapp (however it’s spelled) simulated a certain sex act during a sermon in church. You can find it on You Tube by searching for his name and/or “Polishing the Shaft.”


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    Velour wrote:

    True enough. There is a lot of hostility aimed sometimes at stay-at-home moms.

    Ironically, most of the hostility and fighting about motherhood and how to Mom is carried out by – other mothers.

    Women such as myself who never had kids don’t care how or if or when women have kids.

    However, I see plenty of SAHMs insulting career women who leave their kids in day care and so on, and the career women putting down SAHMs. The “Mommy Wars.” Childless and CF women don’t really get into any of that or have opinions on it.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    That part of the man answering to God is nowhere in scripture. Plus, and I’m no theologian, but if someone is answerable like that, then what does that mean for

    The NT explicitly says that Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator (high priest) between God and humanity, and the NT refers to all believers (not just men) as being priests.

    The NT says nothing about husbands being a priest-figure responsible for a wife’s sins – she already has a high priest, Jesus Christ.


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    Lydia wrote:

    The only way I could figure it was they believe they answer for their wives and the wife answers for her submission or not, to the Lord.

    Hmm. Supposing any or all of that were true.

    What do they suppose would happen on judgement day if the wife confessed to God that she didn’t submit enough to her husband?

    God’s response would be to revoke her salvation, or give her a lashing with a wet noodle? Is that what complementarians think? I’d like to see the Bible passages for that, for what the unsubmissive wife’s punishment would be.


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    @ Deb:

    A beautiful story Deb, one which needs telling in a world that’s dying for lack of beauty.


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    mirele wrote:

    I have to wonder how the CBMW and the rest of the comps are dealing with the fact that for the first time in American history, there are more single adults in the USA than married adults. (This has been the case since 2009.) Their “gospel” is wrapped up completely in gender roles based on certain verses, which are, IMHO, taken out of context. How is this “gospel” supposed to relate to adults who are not married, and who may have no intention of ever marrying?

    Yes, I’ve been raising these very points for the last few years, on this blog and a few others.

    CBMW and other complementarian groups pay lip service to respecting singlehood but their true interests are betrayed because the sheer number of articles, books, and conferences deal with wifely submission and how all women should be mothers.

    You just do not see the same amount of attention and care paid by comps towards divorced women, widows, childfree, childless, or the never married.


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    @ Deb:

    This story made my day. I grew up with pastors like that. I am thankful to have known what church can be.


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    @ ishy:
    I did go to a church once where there were more single dudes present than single women in the adult singles class for those age like 35 or older… which is odd, b/c usually the ladies out number the dudes.

    In this case, though, the men were, to put it politely, not marriage material. Some of them had questionable personal hygiene, one guy acted very weird, etc.


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    @ mirele:
    I’ll be interested a little in knowing if he gets his “mid century retro chairs” and yellow fire engine truck. 🙂
    (He was asking for stuff like that in one of his videos)


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    Josh wrote:

    “You’ll totally find someone,” they say, [unless you’re gay, then you can’t have a relationship, like ever, and we’ll ignore you until you ‘slip up,’ at which point we’ll disown / shun / excommunicate you because you failed at flawlessly implementing our unfunded mandate of celibacy]. But I digress… And don’t forget the straight singles who can’t or simply don’t want to find someone. But there’s just no room for us, living in a complementarian paradise, so we’re cast aside.

    I’d still like to marry, but the standard line people like myself, over age 40 ge from preachers and churches is,

    “If you’re 40 and older and still single, God wants you to stay single. God has gifted you with singleness. Otherwise God would have sent you a spouse before you hit 40.”

    The Bible really does not teach the GOS (gift of singleness) concept, and secondly, it sure as heck does not say,
    “If you are still single by age X, God has pre-ordained you to never, ever marry.”


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Here’s the part that gets me: Is Reissig saying that men are being punished for Adam’s sin in the fall by God assigning them responsibility for and authority over women?
    Did anyone else get that from what she said?

    I don’t know about her specifically, but a lot of