"I had preached for this church for a year and a half and they still called me."
Dennis Darville (44.33 mark)
Dennis Darville – Christ Covenant Church Facebook
In the wake of the annual gathering of Southern Baptists in St. Louis, I decided to take a look at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary's website, Between the Times, to see whether they had written about the election for SBC president that just took place. After all, J.D. Greear (one of the candidates) has two advanced degrees from Southeastern and is much beloved by everyone there.
I scrolled down to June 15th (the second day of the SBC meeting), and was quite surprised by what I saw. The post, which was entitled The Calling of God and the Pastoral Search Process, featured a conversation between John Ewart, Associate Vice President for Project Development (link), and Dennis Darville, who served on staff at Southeastern for over a decade. Here is the explanation under the video:
Recently, Dr. John Ewart and Dennis Darville sat down to discuss and give tips on how to properly conduct a pastor search committee.
Just after the 2 minute mark, John Ewart introduced Dennis Darville with these words:
I'm really excited my friend is here Dennis Darville – Pastor, Pastor Dennis Darville. Dennis Darville was here at Southeastern with us full time for many years as a vice president. He was in charge of everything from communications to kinda the financial support of the institution and oversaw a lot of our offices and one of my bosses and did a great job for us. God called him away to go full time at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount, North Carolina, America as the Pastor of Preaching and Leadership there, so you've been there three years now you were just telling me.
I immediately knew that the video wasn't all that 'recent' because Dennis Darville is no longer pastoring at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount (FBC Rocky Mount). It turns out the video was posted to Vimeo a year ago. So what happened at FBC Rocky Mount, and why is Darville no longer the pastor?
Perhaps it's best to start at the beginning…
When FBC Rocky Mount's pastor retired, the congregation began seeking a new pastor. At that time the church was healthy with a fellowship of nearly a thousand (perhaps more), which we believe to be fairly large for a town the size of Rocky Mount (located about an hour east of Raleigh).
According to the About Us section of the church website:
First Baptist Church of Rocky Mount was organized in 1880. We are associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, the North Carolina Baptist State Convention and the North Roanoke Baptist Association.
Dennis Darville became interim pastor at FBC Rocky Mount on January 1, 2012. In the SEBTS video, Darville states (at the 40.16 mark):
The search committee that I went through when I just had the great privilege of now being the lead pastor at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount, it was men and women and it was across all age stratas – eighty all the way down into the probably the youngest was maybe thirties.
Then at the 43.25 mark, Darville says:
When I went to this search committee three years ago, I had a unique situation in that I went through an interview process with this search committee just to do their interim, and they took me through the ringer. They asked a lot of questions, and there were three men being considered and I was one and quite frankly I was less credentialed than the other two in terms of academia. I had my Masters, and the other two gentlemen had their Ph.D's, and they were just looking for an interim and by God's sovereign grace they said "Would you come and be our interim?" But the interim for this church was not just come preach for us on Sunday. We want you to lead our on Wednesday nights. We want you to lead our staff meetings on Tuesday morning, and I've now got a full time job here [at SEBTS]. I got permission to do all that, and so I'm doing that. The first year and a half was fantastic because I actually got to know a large and sizeable staff, and they're still with me today other than my worship pastor who passed away unexpectedly just a few weeks back. And so I had preached for this church for a year and a half, and they still called me.
The Biblical Recorder made the following announcement on March 21, 2013:
First Baptist Church of Rocky Mount has called a Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary vice president as its new senior pastor.
Dennis Darville, 56, currently Southeastern’s vice president for institutional advancement, will start at First Baptist on May 1. Darville had been the church’s interim pastor since Jan. 1, 2012.
“My prayer for First Baptist Church Rocky Mount is that God would give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation of the knowledge of Him through His Word … That He would open our minds to see Jesus,” Darville said in a brochure distributed to church members.
While serving as lead pastor at FBC Rocky Mount, the following biographical information regarding Darville was included on the church website:
Dennis Darville was born in McComb, Mississippi. He received his Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Studies from The College at Southeastern and received his Masters in Divinity from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Dennis' professional background is diverse. He served twelve years as a campus minister, ministering to college students, at the University of Georgia and then moving to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He was also involved in planting a campus church in Houston, TX.
After serving as a campus minister, Dennis left the campus for the marketplace. Over a twelve year span, he served as National Sales Manager of Ashworth Golf, Vice President of Greg Norman Apparel, and another few years as Vice President of PING Apparel. Those years taught him a wealth of information, not the least of which is the need to see the primacy of Christ in all spheres of life and the urgent need for kingdom-perspective and balance. Dennis has also had the privilege of serving as an interim pastor, campus speaker and corporate consultant.
Most recently Dennis served (2007-2012) as Vice President of Institutional Advancement at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Additionally, he is a member of the Board of Links Players International, an international ministry using the game of golf as a platform to reach men and women for Christ. He also serves on the Committee for the Scripture and Hermeneutics Seminar and is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society.
I copied this information from the church website while Darville was still pastoring at FBC Rocky Mount – it has since been removed.
We understand that Darville served as a 'campus minister' with Maranatha Campus Ministries in the 1980s. In this bio and early in the SEBTS video, he mentions being involved in a campus ministry; however, he does not identify it.
The youth pastors at FBC Rocky Mount who were there before Darville arrived had strong Neo-Calvinist leanings (I seem to recall reading on the church website that they were SEBTS grads), so they obviously had great rapport with someone coming from the Southeastern family.
Not long after Darville was hired as Pastor of Preaching and Leadership in 2013, he began to express his desire to set up an elder-led form of church government, with some of the pastors serving as elders. Obviously, this would give him more control. As we understand it, the congregation voted AGAINST an elder-led system.
Once the members of FBC Rocky Mount took a strong stand against having elders rule the church, things began to deteriorate. Church discipline, charges of insubordination, and angry confrontations with members behind closed doors occurred. The pastors appeared to become obsessed with congregational submission.
In the summer of 2015, Darville spoke at MAN CAMP with colleagues from Southeastern. According to the Facebook page, 187 people were invited, and 29 planned to attend. Here is a screen shot of information about the event.
Then in early 2016 a 'Church Covenant Study' was announced. In the wake of a push for an elder-led church, it did not go over well…
Finally, in early February 2016, Dennis Darville asked for a 'Vote of Confidence'. I understand that the deacons wanted to bring in a third party to help the church move through some 'issues', but the pastoral staff turned this idea down. On February 14, 2016 (a Sunday as well as Valentine's Day), FBC Rocky Mount members cast their votes. The congregation voted 60/40 in favor of the staff, but Dennis Darville and the entire staff (with the exception of one associate pastor and a music assistant) immediately resigned. Most of the staff (Tim Griffin, Mike Avery, and Jack Helm) had been there before Darville was hired. It is widely believed that Dennis Darville and his lieutenants planned to resign well before the 'vote of confidence'.
Not long after this, a new church formed in Rocky Mount with Darville as the lead pastor. Obviously, this had been in the works for some time… As you might imagine, quite a few congregants demonstrated their loyalty to their pastors by leaving FBC Rocky Mount. The new church plant – Christ Covenant Church – was launched on Easter Sunday. The photo at the top of the post is from the church launch. Here is their Facebook page. The logo on the left is a screen shot from the church's FB account. I am left wondering how these pastors are able to maintain their lifestyles after walking away from the full-time positions at FBC Rocky Mount. Is this a church plant that has received special funding from the NAMB? I understand that it is impossible to get any information out of the IMB or the NAMB regarding the funding of church plants. As a member of a Southern Baptist church, I find that very troubling.
Incidentally, Christ Covenant Church meets on the campus of North Carolina Wesleyan College in Rocky Mount. Oh, the irony! The younger FBC pastors had organized a ministry outreach on this college campus not long after Dennis Darville was hired at FBC Rocky Mount, and this group, along with those who left FBC Rocky Mount, appears to be the foundation of this new work.
Keep in mind that it's only been four months since these pastors resigned from FBC Rocky Mount. In that short amount of time, families have been split and much harm has been done. Because of Dennis Darville's knowledge of Scripture and oratorical skills, many congregants have chosen to follow him to the new church plant. Those mesmerized by Darville refuse to believe the stories told by members who experienced verbal abuse behind closed doors.
FBC Rocky Mount's staff is now quite small, with the church having guest preachers fill the pulpit every Sunday. I decided to peruse the list of speakers in the 'Sermons' section of the church website and discovered that two of the pastors who have preached numerous times since Darville's departure have strong ties to SEBTS and both were pastors at churches that are 'elder-led'. One is working on his Ph.D. at Southeastern and the other is a professor there.
Perhaps you now understand why I thought it terribly unwise for Southeastern to feature this year old video of Dennis Darville with no update regarding his pastoral status. How irresponsible to regard him as an expert on the pastoral search process given what recently happened at his former church.
This Between the Times post provides a link to a 39 page packet of information that has been put together for churches wanting to hire a pastor as well as those who are pastoral candidates. Dee will be discussing this material in our upcoming post, and she will share some key questions that we believe pastor search committees should be asking pastoral candidates that were not included in the packet put together by SEBTS.
Since church planting is such a hot topic, especially in seminary circles, perhaps John Ewart will once again feature Dennis Darville — this time discussing his 'new work' in Rocky Mount.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Your articles are always so helpful as well as the conversations they produce. I wanted to thank you for all the effort hope all is well with you both and your families. brian
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wow! I’ll say that backwards–Wow! How anyone can think it is OK to do what Darville and the staff did in setting up a competing church is beyond me in light of what John 17 says. Wolves among sheep.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
NAMB no longer funds church plants in North Carolina. Their focus is on the SEND cities. They are not receiving funding from the state convention either, they are not listed on their website of funded churches.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This looks at Wayne Grudem’s un-orthodox view of the Trinity, ESS and asks the question…can the ESV Bible be trusted? I use the Church at Charlotte, the Evangelical Free in Charlotte, North Carolina as an example of a church that chucked the NIV only to embrace the ESV, to ask a lot of questions.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/06/18/wayne-grudems-un-orthodox-view-of-the-trinity-and-the-question-that-must-be-asked-can-the-esv-bible-be-trusted/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ brian:
Thank you brian.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
It is truly incredible. One of the reasons we want to get this information out there is to warn unsuspecting congregations who are in the process of hiring a new pastor (or will be in the future). Chances are if a church calls someone from the Neo-Cal camp, they will face a similar situation.
What was good at FBC Rocky Mount was that some of the congregants (particularly the older ones) were onto Darville and made sure that the elder-led model was voted down. I think that happened over a year ago.
I know about some shady things Darville did in the aftermath that I have decided not to share. Some of the more influential congregants left with him to plant this new church and, of course, they took their contributions with them. The congregation that remains has a large facility to keep up, while Darville’s runaway church plant is renting space at the community college.
Both sides believe they are right. My advice to those who left with Darville is – do a little research on these Neo-Cals. Our blog is a great place to start, although it’s a bit overwhelming for someone who is clueless about what’s going on. It’s hard to believe that we’ve been studying these trends for over eight years and writing about it, so our categories section is chockful of information in our older posts. The "Calvinista" and "YRR" categories would be a great place to start reading. There is a Neo-Cal playbook, and we now recognize many of their moves, although we're still learning…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb and Dee, praying for y’all and the ailing mother-in-law (Deb’s?? Sorry, I am old and senile).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
It's Dee's MIL. Dee is a nurse by training, and her husband is a cardiologist, so they have a better understanding of what's going on medically than the rest of us. Hospice is also a big help.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dave (Eagle):
Looking forward to reading your post!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ S.F Davis:
That's good to know. There has been a lot of secrecy in funding Southern Baptist church plants.
It's amazing that the pastors at FBC Rocky Mount could suddenly walk away from their secure positions. Most pastors wouldn't be able to do that, especially those with young families to support.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
S.F Davis wrote:
What’s a send city?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Interesting that this can be described as a business model; a hostile takeover, if you will, except for the lack of candor up front (which is the same as lying). How did his preaching in the 1.5 yr interim leading up to the ‘call’ differ from his preaching after the church made a long-term commitment to him?
For the members who were discerning enough to see it, In a way it is akin to parents watching naive daughter fall in love with a charming man, only to have the abusive traits that were cleverly hidden so long come to the forefront.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Yes. Based on Darville's own testimony, it looks like the pastor search committee did things right. They asked the tough questions. It was only after he was securely in place that he began to carry out the Neo-Cal agenda. That's what makes me mad about this situation.
Perhaps churches need to have pastors sign an agreement that they will not attempt to change the polity of the church, and if they do they're fired!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Yes, Deb, without a doubt; I think perhaps the profess in professional clergy is too fluid–I prefer confessional rather than professional. If the money/power motivation is removed from the dynamic, we might see a more modest, but more effective leadership dynamic emerge.
I feel for the youth in that church; the disillusionment that takes place when the ‘adults’ are fighting has long term effects.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Brother Darville could have benefited from the strategy used by a young reformer who recently took over a traditional SBC church near me. After he lied his way past the search committee about his theological leaning, the new “lead pastor” (they love that title!) promptly launched a campaign to educate the church on proper church governance. He expressed his desire to follow the “Biblcal” pattern by stripping congregational polity from the church to bring in elder-rule. When the congregation voted that down (they were onto the scheme by this time), he recruited enough like-minded members from a nearby reformed church to swing the vote his way a few months later. Surely, Brother Darville could have recruited enough SEBTS students into membership to work his magic this way. Not much of an expert on how to work the pastoral search process to takeover a church … take the staff with you and start a new church when you don’t get your way is juvenile behavior, not the work of an expert. Likewise, blindly bringing in a Calvinist to a non-Calvinist church is not exercising wisdom by the search committee … you just can’t trust all pastoral candidates these days folks – sad, but true … vet them rigorously, check their social media for reformed chatter, ask tough questions, but above all pray your guts out for discernment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is disgusting Deb. Have you tried to get a statement from SEBTS, Danville or NAMB?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
Right out of the Neo-Cal playbook…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dave (Eagle):
No. I doubt they would entertain my questions since I am the wrong gender.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Outright lying to gain control of a pulpit should never be in any Christian’s playbook! Forcing your belief and practice on a people who don’t want it is never right. Working behind the scenes to take staff and members with you to a competing work across town cannot be found in any “how to” Scripture. Somewhere/somehow, these new reformers have got it in their minds that stealth and deception are OK when its for the good of the movement. They must believe that since all of Christianity, besides them, are suffering in theological famine, it’s OK for a season to control, manipulate, and intimidate the planting of your theology by whatever means is necessary. That birthed in rebellion in Jesus’ name never prospers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ brian:
Thank you
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
S.F Davis wrote:
Fascinating. Do you have any links? I need to read about this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Deb:
They have SWAT teams prowling the roofs to watch for our approach.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Great post, Deb. There is gnashing of teeth today.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee, I am sorry your mother in law is not doing well. I hope you are holding up okay. Being a care taker to a sick person can be exhausting (mentally and physically).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Great analysis, Deb. I’ve seen this type of story play out locally, more than once, and it’s always tragic. Good thing we don’t have a local seminary.
And I’m not surprised to see Maranantha in his background.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I haven’t finished reading the whole original post yet. I will later.
At this point in time, I just wanted to comment on…
“Man Camp.” Lame. Super lame. insert rolling eye emoji here.
OP said:
Yes – verbal abusers usually only verbally abuse in private, when there are no witnesses present.
I have a sibling who is a huge, huge verbal abuse, and that is her operating procedure. She never (or very rarely) lashes out against me if she knows other people are around and can over-hear (or read, in the case of social media).
If you read “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” by author . Evans, she mentions this is a huge, huge, common characteristic of verbal abusers (among a few others):
they will seldom to never carry out their verbal abuse in front of others.
They generally only mistreat their targets when the targets are alone with them. They will wait until other people leave, or they can get the target alone in another room or on the phone to blast them.
(Not all verbal abuse involves name calling and screaming, though – there are other equally damaging forms.)
Read sample chapters from The Verbally Abusive Relationship here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=y9Kz6F22OdsC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
I have to go out and finish my daily exercises now, before it turns hotter as the day wears on.
The weather has turned awful the last few weeks where I live; it gets up to the mid- 70 degree range by like 7 o’clock in the morning, to mid 90s by late afternoon, and the heat index gets up to 110 or so.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Calvinist theology has for some reason been prone to a top-down authoritarian approach (Geneva). I don’t see a direct theological link but it might have to do with seeing two class of people: one special group loved by God, and one created for eternal torment. Maybe combine that with the sovereignty of God (“I’m right with God, and whatever I do has already been pre-determined, here we go, more control to fulfill my / God’s vision)! Islam (not just political Islam, every variant from the Levant to the Turks to Central Asia and the Maghreb) has very very similar tendencies.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
Thank you. I am handing in there but it has been a lot of work.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Excellent idea.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Try being a man and being subjected to this condescending BS.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Exactly. The movement is very condescending to men *and* women because it assumes that we cannot figure anything out for ourselves without their rule book and their teaching “ministry”, even with the Holy Spirit to teach us. I think the root of this is a spirit of elitism, as Roland Peer noted. The men of the church must heed the Top Men who are the ones in the know, and, in exchange, the lower men get to rule over the women. Sick and twisted.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Roland Peer wrote:
It actually does not make sense. If a person truly believed that God is sovereign and all things have been pre-ordained by him, I would think it would set the person free from selling their soul to accomplish and achieve. It should allow them to simply live out the Christian life in obedience to the word without any distress about results. It’s so inconsistent.
These people have bought the lie that the end justifies the means. I believe in the end they will be surprised to find out, it is all about the means. It’s not what you achieve that counts, it’s how you lived your life in the little moments.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Classic case of sheep-stealing. It really sounds like Darville planned to divide and then to alienate so as to come away with a core of the original Church members (sheep) to start his own little fifedom.
When DEB wrote “Perhaps it’s best to start at the beginning… “, I knew this case had history and ‘Wow’ did it ever. All the props were present: ‘man camp’, ‘elder rule’, ‘Church discipline’, and once the stage was set, the work of division (carving up) of a faith community began in earnest ….. and so we see how neo-Cals roll. It’s a vivid, ugly story that needed telling, and I congratulate DEB on her research. ‘WOW’ is right.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Common. Lie low for a year or so and then begin to dismantle and reconstruct according to the “agenda”. Most parishioners have a life, need to support their own families, and are naive to dealing with schemes at church of all places.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Roland Peer wrote:
Your are on track with the theological link. Here is today’s blog from John MacArthur’s site: http://www.gty.org/Blog/B160617. In this blog we find MacArthur’s view of God:
“As Creator, He is entitled to rule over all His creatures any way He pleases. The Potter quite simply has power over the clay to fashion it any way He desires. He makes the laws; He determines the standards; and He judges accordingly. He created everything for His own pleasure; and He has every right to do so. He also has total power to determine the principles by which His creation must function. In short, He has the absolute right to do whatever He determines to do. And because He is righteous, He rules in perfect righteousness, always holding to the highest standard of truth and perfect virtue.”
If it’s true that we become like that which we worship, a pastor who believes in this view of God is moving himself to be like this as he strives to become godly:
“As a pastor, he is entitled to rule over all his church members any way he pleases. The pastor quite simply has authority over the church to fashion it any way he desires. He makes the laws; he determines the standards; and he judges accordingly. He planned everything for his own pleasure; and he has every right to do so. He also has total power to determine the principles by which his church must function. In short, he has the absolute right to do whatever he determines to do. And because he is ordained, he rules in perfect righteousness, always holding to the highest standard of truth and perfect virtue.”
Is this what is happening with the YRR “leaders” or am I making something out of nothing?
Here’s something else that is very important. John MacArthur says this about God’s justice in this blog: “Justice is a legal term that describes the righteousness of divine government. God is a just God. His justice is as unchanging as any other aspect of His character. God cannot change His mind or lower His moral standards. Since He is utterly perfect, any change at all would diminish His perfection—and that would be unthinkable. So His justice is inflexible; His holy nature demands that it be so. … If any creature chafes under God’s rule or rebels against divine government, that creature then falls immediately under the judgment of God. Anyone who does not conform to the will of God incurs the inflexible justice of God.” MacArthur is wrong. I’ve read quite a few articles on this that pretty much say the same thing. Here is one example: http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/06/06/how-the-bible-understands-justice/32339. The Calvinist view of justice is legal retribution. The “Biblical” view of justice is restoration and wholeness. That is a ginormous difference. It’s this small view of God and his justice combined with a fatalistic view of sovereignty and the special status of the elect that seems to fuel the YRR tactics.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
They remind me of Absalom standing outside the gate, unbeknownst to David, greeting people who were coming to see David, and giving them help & advice himself (while denigrating David and his way of doing things).
And in this way, Absalom seduced to himself the hearts of men who had originally come to see David. And when Absalom had won many men over to himself in this way, he then used them to take the kingdom from David.
These men want power. And they have deceived themselves that what they are doing is for a righteous cause. Since they view their end goal as “good & right”, they gloss over the means by which they accomplish it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The link you provided for Darville’s post on “The Calling of God and Pastoral Search Process” provides an accompanying guide for search committees. I found the following sample questions interesting – I wonder if Calvinist candidates for non-Calvinist church pulpits would answer them honestly. The playbook they have been using in my area suggests not.
Question 21: Describe your understanding of elder-led congregationalism.
Question 25: What do you consider to be nonnegotiable theological issues? Do you hold any unique theological views or personal convictions that have been controversial in your other ministry experiences?
Question 32: What is the role of women in the church and ministry in general?
Question 37: Who are your favorite living theologians, pastors, and authors? Why?
Question 38: What are the most recent books you have read? Who are your biggest
influences in preaching, theology, and leadership?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darville and gang swiftly resigned and were out the door so that the church leaders wouldn’t have time to put together a non-compete agreement. At least that’s how I see the urgency of their departure.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
I read some of those questions to Dee yesterday during our phone conversation. She will be discussing that packet of information on Monday and will share some questions that we believe should be asked. Looking forward to that post!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Like others, I’ve seen this play out. In one church, a few young guys who had family ties to a traditional church became infatuated with all things Piper. One got placed on the search committee and began recruiting people with ideas like “Reformed theology is serious and not man-centered like we have been” and “We need to attract some young people, and young people are enthusiastic about Reformed theology.” This message takes root with some influential and wealthy people in the church, and the search committee starts asking the Usual Suspect organizations for recommendations.
The guy who is recommended is hired and brings along his hand-picked staff. Elder polity is introduced within a few years and has the effect of concentrating political power within the church, since the pastoral staff has a near-majority on the board and has an effective majority because the influential members have been cultivated and brought to heel via appeals (ironically) to missions and evangelism.
During the next few years, staff that the church has had for years continue and are quiet about their concerns. Gradually they leave for the usual stated reasons along with a lot of members who do not agree with the new structure and very new takes on familiar doctrines. After some period of time, the church looks nothing like its former self. Mission accomplished. The church is much smaller but much more “pure.”
In another church, elder polity was already in place (mildly Calvinistic but not YRR) but the church called a new pastor who was oriented toward “growth.” The church was relatively small but close. However some believed that the church had become stagnant. Personally, I believe that the church was feeling overwhelmed by a mega.
The new guy convinces wealthy and influential members to “build the kingdom” by expanding the church building. Church acquires debt for building, people leave because the pastor becomes overbearing, and some of the people who are left call for the pastor to resign. He takes a core group and leaves and plants another church nearby. The original church has huge debt service and a much smaller congregation.
Those are just two examples of church leaders behaving badly that I have seen.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
JYJames wrote:
Has anyone looked at what parts of the country and what types of churches make this tactic more successful than in other places? I’ve been suspecting that it works better in the South by taking advantage of Southern gentility. Their focus seems to be on Southern Baptists, but that does not necessarily mean it’s a Southern thing. I don’t have any hard facts.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Off-topic: I am so sorry to hear about Dee’s mom-in-law. 🙁
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee,
Praying for your MIL and your family. I’m sure I is a difficult time. Remember to rest and refresh when you can.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Just let the menfolk handle things silly! They obviously have it well in hand…
(I agree with you this behavior is disgusting)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
Don’t know of things beyond the South. However, I do not think the appeals are effective because of Southern gentility. What I have seen are appeals to the Southern Baptist traditional concern over missions and evangelism, concerns over the cultural decline, and many SBC members’ concern over a lack of Biblical literacy in the SBC. Of course, the remedy to these is presented as books by “reliable” teachers and formulas.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Exactly what happened at FBC Rocky Mount.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
All this elder polity is certainly a convenient way to remove some from the decision making process entirely…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BL:
Great analogy!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
Sorry some = women.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Interesting. I could be thinking only from my own Southern church experience. I’ve been in several “Life Groups” and I’ve found few people who want to talk about topics like this. I get the impression lots of folks are going along for the ride. One of the common themes seems to be the YRRs getting a foothold before anyone either notices or takes decisive action. I don’t know how they are able to do that in so many cases.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
And it ties in with earlier comments about father wounds. King David was not a stellar father figure for Absalom. It does not excuse what he did, but perhaps it helps to explain what we are currently seeing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ S.F Davis:
How can you really know? There are non disclosure agreements everywhere. The IMB kept a huge budget deficit secret for a long time. And then used it to get rid of a certain population of career missionaries.
Deception in the SBC is now the normal.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
Same here regarding personal experience. In order to take over an existing traditional church, it is necessary to reassure older members and appeal to their concerns. The appeals I listed are the ones that were effective in taking over a traditional SBC church and turning it Calvinista. Many staff and members were left wondering what happened. Then they left because they were put off by the changes or they were invited to leave or they were “encouraged” to leave or they were disciplined.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Great metaphor. They are quite adept at hiding their true agenda to get hired.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Hilarious. Da big manly men have to have SWAT teams to protect them against a couple of lowly wimmen!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
You see why this has been so effective in Louisville due to geography.
What also blows my mind is all the double dipping that goes on. How can you be full time at a seminary and be the “lead” pastor of a church?
I recently heard if a local church that hired a full-time Seminary professor to work in a church 20 hours a week for $40,000. In addition to his full time gig at Seminary. I have come to the conclusion they probably don’t do much in either job except wreck havoc.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I led worship at a church that had a full-time seminary professor as a pastor. It wasn’t Calvinist. He just worked a lot. I also went through full-time at SEBTS working a 30-hour a week job. It was crazy hard, but possible. I don’t think it’d be possible at a large church, but could be done at a smaller one.
As a former SEBTS student, I’m so disappointed after reading this. I didn’t even know how to respond. I’m not familiar with Rocky Mount, but while I was there, I and other students were certainly alarmed at the forced move toward Calvinism.
I will say that SEBTS, when I was there 10 years ago, was very slow about getting things done and sometimes a bit unorganized. They could have put that video up before all this happened, and just never got around to taking it down. I would hope that as this gets out, they take it down.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just a caution: we have experience with Calvinist take over of a traditionalist SBC church. You have to have your terms theologically precise or they (YRR) will walk all over you.
Properly speaking, not all the YRR are Neo-Cal. That is a specific subset of beliefs and is actually quite old. Some YRR are Calvinist and some are Neo Calvinist. It has nothing to do with “new” meaning what is happening now. Don’t ask a YRR if he is Neo Cal unless you really mean that specific subset. He will just say no and let you believe he is no Calvinist at all. The reverse is also true. Many Calvinists embrace John MacArthur and SGM and 9Marks but reject Neo Calvinism.
And then there is new Calvinism, which tends not to be Neo at all.
And there is Puritanism and New Puritanism and Neo Puritanism, all nuanced and with just enough difference to allow them wiggle room answering your questions.
And be sure to google TULIP and the 5 Solas. They most definitely are not the same thing. Many Wesleyans hold the Solas but not the TULIP of course. As do many Baptists. Here again they may know what you mean but will answer what you say.
Which can allow a Calvinist Puritan to deny they are Neo Cal New Puritans and indeed run the latter into the ground so a search committee thinks they have a trad.
And be very specific on the definition and operation they give for each Sola and each petal of the TULIP. They will try to skate with “oh no I reject them and adhere to Biblical theology.”
Horsefeathers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
Moore, Setzer, and other big and not so big names have been doing this for years. What is the reason? Money? Moore and Setzer make 6 figures in their day jobs. Moore was main teaching pastor in a well heeled mega (Ezells former church)
They claim to be churning out qualified candidates for such positions. The pew sitters end up paying them twice through church salary and also the CP. But the pew sitters are thrilled to have a Seminary man.
I am obviously not talking about the full time Seminary student working part time at a church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
S.F Davis wrote:
What’$ $o $ignificant about the$e $END citie$?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Knock-and-drag and bus them in from The Projects?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I’m sure the big names have enough staff to do much of the day-to-day stuff. There were a number of pastoral students that seemed to think all they’d have to do as a pastor is write sermons and books, and other people would deal with those pesky people in the congregation. I think that completely defies everything I see in the Bible about being a pastor.
But many professors at SEBTS were working at churches, but I don’t think any were lead pastors at larger churches, just tiny churches or as non-lead pastors.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Have the search committee submit the final candidate to a complete psychological exam by a trained professional. If your search committee is not doing this, explain why they should. If they don’t, offer to pay for it yourself. If they still don’t have the pastor candidate evaluated, it is time to ready a lifeboat and abandon ship when needed.
There is a better then 30% chance of getting saddled with a narcissist and I would bet this guy is an NPD. Tearing apart a church to gain unbridled authority is a near guarantee of an NPD at work. It is time for pew sitters to wise up, this is now common place.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
This is yet another example of what submission looks like with these guys. They always talk big about submission but the submission talked about by the new testament writers is mutual submission. I don’t see any example of “submit to one another out of reverence to Christ”, it appears they revere themselves more.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
This is only very marginally related to your comment, but –
(Warning. The following clip contains zombie brains/blood shots, and at least two cuss words):
Dawn of the Dead (8/11) Movie CLIP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS6_Y6r5r-8
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
They say submission but they mean capitulation to their demands, which, of course, is what NPDs want as well. The one I have in mind would be all sweet and winsome until behind closed doors. Then the teeth were bared. With a gospelly veneer, but bared. Imperious and winsome at the same time. Crazy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
These guys are like warring tribal chieftains. Native American or the blue-painted Picts of old, alpha male dominance is the name of the game.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
It is very fact that this “playbook” is “played” many times that makes it so depressing. Integrity, honest, openness sure does not seem to be the pastor being trained in this specific “Neo-Cal” tradition..
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
(Quoting J Mac)
It’s kind of sad and telling how much some preachers obsessively focus on rule and authority.
I suppose it’s true that God can rule over all his creation any way he sees fit, but even in the Bible, God lays out (or we’re told, or we can deduce from some stories) that there are some things God will not do.
God also chooses to summarize his essence as being love (1 John 4:8), not authority.
I know that some people stumble over some of the Old Testament stories of God ordering the annihilation of some foes of ancient Israel and so forth, but if you really stop to think about it, God also showed mercy at times in the OT.
God repeatedly sent prophets to warn even foreign nations – he gave them a chance to change, rather than wipe them out.
God chastised Jonah for lacking compassion on Israel’s enemies (whom God spared in that case, since they repented), see Jonah Ch 4,
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%204
Then you have things like Genesis 18:16-33, “Abraham Pleads for Sodom”.
Abraham whittles God down to ten men, and the text says God was willing to spare the cities:
In other words, as I see it, there were plenty of instances in the Bible where God was not (or is not) AS consumed with authority, rulership, and power, as some of these preachers are.
One of the things I take away from the Bible is that if you lack love and compassion for people – but are all-powerful, or really educated, and have great doctrine – is that you are a big nothing. (Paul gets into this in 1 Corinthians 13:1-2.)
My understanding of Satan is that he was very powerful (not as powerful as God), but one thing that made him a big jerk, is that all he wanted was even more power, worship, and to rule over others. Satan didn’t care about loving people.
It looks to me (again, based on my understanding of the Bible) as though God is more interested in having relationships of affection and mutuality with his creation, than he is in throwing his weight around and being The Boss.
God wasn’t so much into authority, but some preachers today are certainly preoccupied with having authority.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The situation at FBCRM is sad. Families split, going to FBC or the new church “split.” Friends no longer friends. You run into one another in town and feel really uncomfortable, unable to discuss real issues. Praise God FBC is really healthy financially (especially after the departure of the large salaries). How does this church explain what happened to the Body? There are lots of folks that are confused as to what took place.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
That does not exactly sound good in a non profit ministry venue. Take Moore, for example. What does a Seminary Dean do? I am familiar with what they do at secular universities.
It is all so personality driven. It is all about being front and center. They honestly believe that whatever comes out of their mouth is brilliant and God inspired.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
This is the deception I just can’t take anymore. And after the closed door bared teeth is over and you might not still be silent about your concerns, they play the victim so well which Garner’s a lot of empathy from those who did not see the bared teeth.
I tell people to never meet with them without an objective third party. Of course no one ever thinks that is necessary at the time. If Only They would learn from other people’s experiences because I was the same way. It never dawned on me early on that I was dealing with complete deceivers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I wouldn’t know MacArthur from Adam, but he sounds like he has the authority to lay down the rules for God, as to what God can and cannot do. This is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of result of smug unbridled pride, that some man would claim to know the mind of God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
He carries quite a lot of weight in conservative evangelical circles, and he is a speaker at T4G. He often criticizes the YRR pastors for their immaturity, but he is still part of that movement. He is complementarian, but rejects ESS. He is much more consistent in his theology than John Piper, which is one of the reasons he is seen as an authority on theological matters. His study Bible is quite popular.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I spent a good deal of time trying to understand Islam through reading and discussions with Muslin friends. The Calvinistic view of God is very much like the Islamic view. In Islam, God is so transcendent and unknowable that it results in practical agnosticism. They have 99 names for God (like the 99 topics in The Gospel Project?). One of their names for God is deceiver. They say that there is no such thing as inherent goodness. Rather, God declares what is good and what is bad. Sounds pretty much like Calvinism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Linda wrote:
YES! This is one of the best posts ever on YRR. What you describe is what gives the YRR-types the ability to sneak in under the radar. Most people don’t have the time to investigate what is going on, especially folks with kids in school. The only reasons I have been able to dig into this over the last year and a half are my kids are all out of the house, I had an OCD-like compulsion to dig, and my wife is very patient with me. It drove my wife nuts, but I learned a lot. I discovered this site in the middle of that digging, but only started making comments about a month ago. Being able to participate in these conversations has been a very helpful way for me to clean up after digging through so much theological garbage. My wife asked me to stop telling her what I’ve been finding on the YRR sites because it literally makes her sick.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I’d just like to say there is far more disclosure in a merger or purchase of a bank (havng been through several successful purchases/mergers and one explosively failed merger, which was virtually unheard of). Is it possible that evil, too big to fail financial institutions have more morals than sealth Calvinista pastors?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
So I’m not the only one to notice that. Though I would put it that God becomes too abstract to be real or approachable.
And He holds the Biggest Whip, so what He says goes.
“You end up with a God who is Omnipotent but not Benevolent.”
— JMJ over at Christian Monist
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
— Lord Voldemort
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
Well, one thing’s for sure … some of these folks are not in their right spiritual mind. There is nothing holy and pure about church takeover behavior, even if the New Calvinist big dogs say it’s necessary to restore the “right” theology.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
I’m sure the Neo-Cals will find a way to exploit the “con” in “confessional”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
This is a big aspect of the ESS debate i.e. how the word “head” is defined. In modern English it is taken to mean “boss” or “authority,” but this isn’t what it means. The original language coveys Christ’s headship (and used as a model for husbands) as one of servanthood, who provides life and growth. Jesus is head of or to the church, but never head “over” her in the sense of a ruler or a boss. But the guys who promote male rulership can’t seem to sacrifice themselves, take on the role of servants, letting go of their “authority.” Funny how they claim to simultaneously be following Christ.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Can’t let the Angel of Light mask slip in public.
Have to keep all those others properly groomed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Ask the Killing Fields of Cambodia about what’s necessary to restore the “right” Ideology.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Well put. It is sick in the sense of being unhealthy and pathologic, and it is twisted in the sense of turning Jesus’ words about servanthood upside down. Sad, really.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
They have learned Deception well from their Master, the Father of Lies.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I am not a Baptist and am unaware of all the nuances….Can anyone explain the significance of the New Calvinists leaving the NIV version and going to the ESB?
I do know enough to distinguish ESB from ESS however!!
Those of us in Evangelical Lutheran churches are not in the mainstream of all this for sure. 🙂
Thanks!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL wrote:
For a good case study on bad parenting and family dysfunction, start reading in 2 Samuel 13. Absalom (David’s third son) killed his half-brother Amnon (David’s first son by a different mother), over the ‘the late unpleasantness’ committed against Absalom’s sister. David never confronted either son, but seemed glad that Absalom took care of the problem. What a mess.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!
PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!
PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
CHRISTIANE, especially since Rome is the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
This is so true! They use the same words like ‘Grace and sovereignty’ but they mean totally different things than what most non Cals are used to but have no idea they are using it so differently at first because they are not honest.
In order to talk to a Neo calvinist you have to Define terms and that takes forever. Usually the conversation cannot get past defining terms. They use a determinist filter to read scripture which takes humans out of the equation with no ability to respond.
It can take a long time to realize you are basically talking about two different God’s, if folks ever do.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
It also sounds really Islamic to me. As a Muslim scholar once insisted to Scott Hahn, “Allah is not a father. He is Master!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
molly245 wrote:
Crossway. It’s all about Mammon.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
The in consistencies are everywhere. John Piper, who is one of the most quoted of the YRR leaders, is probably the most inconsistent. Everything he write is a confusing mess of gibberish. I don’t know why more people don’t see through this. Maybe they assume they don’t understand him because he is so intelligent. I look at his site almost everyday. I guess by now I shouldn’t be so surprised by how much he contradicts himself daily. For example, this is what Piper posted today in his daily devotional: “When we believe in the sovereignty of God — in the right and power of God to elect and then bring hardened sinners to faith and salvation — then we will be able to pray with no inconsistency, and with great biblical promises for the conversion of the lost. Thus God has pleasure in this kind of praying because it ascribes to him the right and honor to be the free and sovereign God that he is in election and salvation.” Did he say anything meaningful?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Hi Catholic-Gatecrasher,
the quote struck me in that McArthur is saying what God is ‘entitled to’. I wonder sometimes if people that write things like that could actually HEAR outloud what they have written …. they might be able to pick up on how lame it comes across.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Paula Rice:
have I offended a McArthur fan?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
molly245 wrote:
New Calvinists are complementarians and objected to the gender-neutral language of the more recent NIV translations which Wayne Grudem (reformed) argued was “feminist-leaning.” One of the goals of the SBC Conservative Resurgence was to bar women from the priesthood like the RCC does, and a gender-inclusive translation wasn’t going to help the men maintain their power over the women!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I was part of all this at FBC-rocky mount. The story is accurate. Most of the people who left are/were “mesmerized” as you put it. I can’t argue with Darville’s teaching from the pulpit. There was nothing that raised red flags to me. It was the behind the scenes stuff that was scary. He has his “yes men and women” surrounding him. They do the dirty work. The way he puffs up and builds up those in his immediate circle is amazing to watch. Constant flattery….he’s a master. One of the pastors was quoted as saying numerous times they couldn’t stay at a church where the congregation was not submissive to leadership God had ordained.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
What could be missed in this quote is who did the entitling. Did God entitle himself, or is there a higher authority than God? Or do we entitle him? Does that make us sovereign? Calvinists also state that God cannot let sin go unpunished. Says who? If God is under rules that even he cannot break, who made those rules? They have a very messed up view of God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
molly245 wrote:
Crossway. It’s all about Mammon.Ken F wrote:
Yes. Which is why they rarely dig into Jesus except for passing references. Jesus does not fit the determinist model God they promote.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
Oops !
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Which I’m told is very similar to the study materials at a Madrassa in Pakistan.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
I see they have some problems in the WAY that they speak about God, as though they have some secret knowledge (like the gnostics felt they had) as to the workings of God’s mind. The smugness is amazing. The worst of it is they try to set the limits of what God can do and cannot do …. I think they have a very small ‘god’ that they can control, which is sad because I don’t know if they REALIZE how this comes off to people outside of their little bubble. So strange. The whole ESS thing is an outgrowth of this gnostic way of attempting to ‘define’ what can never be defined about the internal workings of the mystery of the Holy Trinity.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Christiane:
CHRISTIANE, yet another subterfuge?
SUB’TERFUGE, noun [Latin subter and fugio, to flee.] Literally, that to which a person resorts for escape or concealment; hence, a shift; an evasion; an artifice employed to escape censure or the force of an argument, or to justify opinions or conduct.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
Of course he did! He said biblical, sovereign, and elect, and those are the RIGHT words, so he’s RIGHT.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Haha! Piper wore me out years ago trying to get through his books. Sheesh! Wish I had had someone like you to talk to back then. I was surrounded by Piper fans, many of whom were non calvinist!
Listening to or reading Piper always made me think of a John Wayne quote: the only way he could say more would be to talk less.
:o)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
You get a gold star! Calvinism could rightly be called neo-Gnosticism because it turns out that only special people understand it. Whenever you try to argue Calvinism with a Calvinist you will be told, “but you really don’t understand Calvinism.” Apparently no one really understands it, even Calvinists, because Calvinists cannot consistently articulate their beliefs.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Paula Rice:
Hi PAULA,
I’m not the one evading my question. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
That is a memorable quote.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Hi CHRISTIANE, you are entertaining to observe. Please, carry on. I’m amused!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Paula Rice wrote:
Is this hostility, or is it an inside joke between you two? I don’t understand the signal you are sending to all of us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Let us remember that God cannot ‘please’ to sin, though. God is love.
Psalm 25:10
“All the paths of the Lord are lovingkindness and truth”
I think you are right, Ken.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
Hi KEN,
It does sound like someone is trying to start a Crab-In, but I’m not interested. Dee is busy with her mother-in-law’s hospice situation, and Deb has given us a very fine example of research into the workings of some very destructive people. No crab-in for me today. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ DustInTheWind:
Very sorry for your experience!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele wrote:
There are laws the banking world must follow.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I totally agree. I had to experience it first hand but then had to step back to see it clearly. Those on the periphery thought all was well, much of the corruption was only visible from within. Unfortunately those on the inside were flattered by the deceiver. They were being groomed and were unable to see him for who he is.
It still amazes me still that this con works so well. At first I didn’t even think it possible and had nagging doubts but now after a few years I have read the same story over and over and over.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
Calvinista pastors are a law unto themselves – right? Elder ruled with one elder being the Senior Pastor . . . see how that works? They get make and define the rules to suit themselves.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
molly245 wrote:
The ESV is the sword of choice by New Calvinists for several reasons. It has been approved by New Calvinist icons; it is published by Crossway, the Calvinist publishing house; carrying it is a sign that you are in the reformed movement; the ESV Study Bible contains lots of Calvinist commentary. Other than that, it is a fairly harmless version comparable to the NIV in translation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Dave, I’ve read the ESV and it is very similar to the RSV, which is the translation I have used for decades. What specifically is it about the ESV that you think promotes ESS? My take on it is that the Patriarchy camp will defend their views regardless of what translation of the Scriptures they’re using. Why? Because they begin with the premise that women are a derivative of man, and their equal but not equal fallacy. From there, they build upon their premise and find the Scriptures they need to prove their point.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
Well said and fairly easy to find elsewhere, too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
No. Piper hasn’t had an original thought or meaningful writing since The Pleasures of God. I suspect his editor is largely responsible. I don’t have anything against the guy, or even his theology, but I struggle to understand how he has a platform. He is not a good communicator.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’m with you on this. The more I read and listen to Piper to more stunned I become. His theoflawgical teachings should be sounding all kinds of alarms, but people keep buying his books. Maybe the point is to lull us into some kind of hypnotic submission.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I had a SBC pastor who is now a professor at a Neo-Cal seminary who outright told his young sycophantic seminary lemmings that they should essentially lie to gain control of a church before introducing Calvinism. At the time it bothered me because I was under the impression that pastors aren’t supposed to be liars, but now I just kind of shrug. Seems to be par for the course these days.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
But seriously, I think the internet exposed a lot. I think Piper’s early books had a good editor. Once he started trying to create regular web content any semblance of beauty or order disappeared from his works.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Another similarity with Islam. Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels to advance the cause of Islam. Nothing new under the sun…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
Creepy!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dustinthewind:
For my money, anyone who runs around telling me to submit to them is going to be first on my list of people I should Not submit to!
That’s just not how things should work.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
It’s the old Reisinger Founders playbook that is so ingrained by the leaders the YRR don’t even have to read it. It is SOP.
What horror that these men believe they are glorifying God by deceiving people. How there can be any trust or unity with these types is beyond me. I would not trust them with my family recipe.
There have been disasterous movements in history that followed a similar path. They are the perfect example of blind guides.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I read something strange that he wrote, this:
“Jesus rules the wind. The tornadoes were his.
But before Jesus took any life in rural America, he gave his own on the rugged cross.”
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/fierce-tornadoes-and-the-fingers-of-god
He sounds confused, like he has taken his God of Wrath and created a Jesus of Wrath. It’s not what I expected to read from someone so prominent in the evangelical world. Did Piper have a breakdown? Is he okay? It happens sometimes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
How far back are you going to ‘sane Piper’? I go back to 1995 and “Future Grace” which read like a black hole of mazes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
Max, I would have to disagree on the ESV being similar to the NIV. The NIV is both word for word translation where possible and moves to thought for thought where things can get clunky. So the accuracy of the NIV is not as high as the word for word translations. The ESV is almost exactly like the NASB which was the gold standard for Bible translation for years. Both the ESV and the NASB are very clunky to read but by translators from all walks are considered to be the best translations. The ESV as you’ve stated became poplar among the reformed because the neoCal celebrities pushed it because of it’s publisher. All of the “study” Bibles in the ESV have neoCal contributors. And of course the connection to Crossway. But the translation itself isn’t bad – it’s how the neoCals twist the Scriptures. Anybody know whatever happened to the Holman Bible? Thought that was gonna be the official Baptist Bible. Holman was another NASB wannabe that is clunky to read. I personally prefer NKJV – love the language – still beautiful but somewhat more modern than KJV.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Daisy wrote: “At this point in time, I just wanted to comment on…
“Man Camp.” Lame. Super lame. insert rolling eye emoji here.”
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote: “Try being a man and being subjected to this condescending BS.”
+++++++++++
at least you’re not invisible & can tell them it’s condescending BS and they would hear you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It was my understanding that the ESV was based on the RSV – evidently Crossway had gotten hold of the copyright. I read somewhere that the ESV is only 6% different from the RSV, whatever that may mean. I’ve never heard of any affinity between the ESV and ASB/NASB.
Incidentally, when I was 10 years old, my church gave me an RSV Bible. I still have it, but I can’t really read it – font too small…
Celia wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ DustInTheWind:
So sorry you had to go through that, but also thankful that you did get through it. We know exactly what you mean about the behind-the-scenes flattery and sometimes intimidation. It is a false power religion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
The NKJV is my favorite translation, too, and I’ve read quite a few. It really is beautiful, and doesn’t seem to have any particular axe to grind. It’s the Bible on my nightstand.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ roebuck:
The ESV is a revision of the RSV. My understanding is very little was changed between the RSV to the ESV. My thought which I didn’t make clear enough is that the more “ivory tower” accepted translation before the ESV was the NASB. John MacArther Study Bible was NASB for years. So the NASB was the Bible of choice by those who thought themselves to be “serious” Bible students. Now the ESV holds that distinction because the neoCals consider themselves to more “serious” and needed a new translation to show just how serious and superior they were. It’s just marketing. It’s not like anybody has found anything knew to translate in the last fifty years.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
Ah, I get it now…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ roebuck:
When I do studies I have several translations I like to look to (which I would recommend everyone do) but for just my day to day reading I love the NKJV. But I do have a literal stack of Bibles available. I want a new amplified Bible and I’m thinking of buying one of Joyce Meyer’s because those are the nicer ones and it would make me feel good knowing I’m buying something that would make a Calvinist head explode.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ roebuck:
I needed to tease that thought out a bit more since I wasn’t clear with my first comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Christiane:
A church plant? That’s like calling an awful divorce a “family plant”- Also members were hand picked and only certain members received an invitation to the “church plant”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
It’s the new normal. In the article you posted he said this: “Therefore, God’s will for America under his mighty hand, is that every Christian, every Jew, every Muslim, every person of every religion or non-religion, turn from sin and come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and eternal life.”
Sounds nice enough, but search his site for “election” and you will find stuff like this: “Unconditional election is God’s free choice before creation, not based on foreseen faith, to which traitors he will grant faith and repentance, pardoning them, and adopting them into his everlasting family of joy.” (see http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/five-reasons-to-embrace-unconditional-election)
Put those two thoughts together and he is saying that EVERY American will be saved because it’s God’s will for all Americans to turn from their sins to Jesus.
But not so fast, because he also wrote this: “Affirming the will of God to save all, while also affirming the unconditional election of some, implies that there are at least ‘two wills’ in God, or two ways of willing. It implies that God decrees one state of affairs while also willing and teaching that a different state of affairs should come to pass.” (see http://document.desiringgod.org/does-god-desire-all-to-be-saved-en.pdf?1446647103).
So what does he really believe? Has he been set up as a distraction to confuse people so that the dirty pastors/elders can do their work?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele wrote:
Yes. What are they teaching at Mohler U?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ ishy:
“There were a number of pastoral students that seemed to think all they’d have to do as a pastor is write sermons and books, and other people would deal with those pesky people in the congregation. I think that completely defies everything I see in the Bible about being a pastor.”
+++++++++++++++++
these silly self-entitled pastoral students aside, what is the everything you see in the bible about being a pastor? i must have missed it all.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
So do I, including a couple of off-beat ones. I have a beautiful hardbound New Testament in 2 volumes, newly translated by Orthodox monks at a monastery out in Colorado. It purports to very accuarely convey the feeling of the Greek verb tenses, and is quite diffent from anything else I’ve encountered. You know, instead of ‘do this’, it’s ‘be doing this!’.
But for day to day, yes, the NKJV for me…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lavender:
sounds like you are in the middle of it all.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family during this difficult time. {{{HUGS}}}
I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread…
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-260214
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Heart broken wrote:
Lure of the Inner Ring from Day One.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
I keep wondering why he hasn’t shot his mouth off (over Twitter) regarding the Orlando Nightclub Massacre. He’s usually been first with the itchy Twitter finger whenever something like this happens. I can only conclude one of his subordinates disabled his Twitter account before he could Tweet something really stupid and Truly Reformed with his Fluttering hands.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Takkiya.
Especially the extreme for convenience version you find today among Jihadi, after centuries of Entropy and self-interest.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
The Cause so Righteous it justifies any evil whatsoever to bring it about.
Citizen Robespierre and Comrade Pol Pot would agree.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Speshul Sekrit Knowledge — “Occult Gnosis” in Greek — for only Speshully-Initiated Illuminati.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
As in passing reference to the Prophet Isa?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Socratic Atheism — if God is under rules that even he cannot break, he is not God; worship the One who makes the Rules even God cannot break!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, Wizards
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
With an IQ of 160, I sure wish I could pull off that racket.
“Only a lawyer can talk for two hours and say absolutely nothing.”
— my father
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lavender wrote:
Been there. I’m so sorry, it hurts and to be honest with you, it’s something you never really get over all the way. At least in my experience.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Bingo. Except this one was cosmically murdered by his dad to satisfy the dads wrath.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You know, it just occurred to me why the Neo-Calvinists seek to take over non-Calvinist churches. They're lousy at Evangelism. After all, when you don't believe that Christ died for the sin of everyone, what kind of gospel can you offer people? Oh, that's right. They don't even believe that the gospel of Christ is an *offer* to begin with!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
That, in a nutshell, is the ultimate response that a hardcore Calvinist falls back on when he/she sees no other recourse.
Tell me again how that is not gnostic in essence?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lavender wrote:
That is a great point about the departure of the big salaries. This is one way they pillage churches that are financially sound or debt free. They bring in comrades and put them on staff. Many of them are paid elders who are given some title.
I still cannot figure out how the Acts 29 Neo Cal planted Sojourn churches here pay their huge staff of pastors and elders. NAMB? There are so many like this!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
Darlene, I think you’re on to something. I just had a sudden realization of my own… Calvinism is not Christianity. There, I said it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Darlene:
It’s about converting the converted to Calvin. That is how their brand of evangelicalism works in pracice.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
John MacArthur’s view of God is horrifying. His god only knows might and power. His god is so worried that people will threaten his power and might, that there is no love, compassion, or mercy to be had.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
Until I started asking questions. I had no idea how political translations were. It is big money. Think of all the churches buying pew Bibles. A LifeWay manager told me years back the Holman was commissioned because of NIV royalties they did not want to pay. But this was before the Calvinistas started Hawking the ESV. They have good reason to help Crossway by promoting it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ roebuck:
Some call it Chrislam.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I am beginning to see that. And I am beginning to see new manifestations of ancient heresies. I suppose it never ends… until it ends…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
We left the SBC a few years ago. So I’ve completely forgotten the reasoning behind the Holman. You’re right about the royalties. All the SBC literature used to post Bible verses in KJV and NIV and I know they were moving toward the Holman and dropping the NIV. What Bible version does the Gospel Project use, do you know? As I said upthread it’s not as if new translators are finding lost manuscripts that are changing the meaning of anything. You’re right about it being simply and only about money. The ESV would be considered better than the Message but it’s not really any better than NASB so it’s just a question of a publisher wanting that sweet green money.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
Evangelism to the reformed mind is harvesting the elect, not reaching the lost. I can go anywhere on planet earth, look any person in the eye, and say “God loves YOU – Jesus died for YOU.” A Calvinist cannot do that and stay true to his theology. What love is this?
Here’s an example of “evangelism” by a “lead pastor” at an SBC-YRR church plant near me. I listened to his sermon podcast after he had returned from a mission trip to West Africa. During his “sermon”, he noted that a young man had approached him in a village and told him that he had been reading a New Testament given to him by a previous American visitor. He said he had some questions about John, chapter 3 and basically asked the pastor “What must I do to be saved?” To which the young reformer responded “You don’t have to do anything. God’s grace has been extended to you.” What?!! No message of the Cross, nothing about Jesus dying for him, no praying a sinner’s prayer with him, no repentance, no accepting Jesus into his heart?!! What gospel is this?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
Second that….although I love the old English of the KJV. My mum a retired English teacher, imparted to me a love of classical English lit, particularly Shakespeare. I find the KJV a bit like that, can be read and enjoyed as lit in its own right.
Maybe I’m just getting grumpy as I march towards my half ton but I find the later translations less appealing from that perspective.
Just an aside, off topic. Not a theological position or anything 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
The central message of Christianity points folks to Jesus. There is a scarlet thread woven throughout Scripture. Calvinists talk a lot about God, but very little about Jesus.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
And so do I some times – it’s the other Bible on my nightstand.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
I have only seen one adult leader guide on the first release of TGP which used the ESV. I do know there was a lot of push back to its Reformed roots and slant so they might have mixed up the translations used in subsequent releases.
The Gospel Project was a losing battle. It was kept under wraps and then had a media blitz with evangelicals. The non Cals did not know what hit them.
I am former SBC myself. My view is once you know what is going on, you can’t unknow. Besides, at ground zero they now own all the SBC churches. Successfully infiltrated by overripe boys. Most pew sitters have no clue. They mistake their totalitarian niceness and top down changes as just youthful ministry zeal….at least for the first 1-4 years. By then, it is too late so they either leave orjust drink the kool aid because it is easier and they are accepted by those still there. It is sad to watch.
I wish more split like the one in the story. It is actually more healthy in the long run.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Rick Warren has been hanging out in that camp.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
You better get your mithril coat on…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ron Oommen:
Is there any writing in English more beautiful than the 23rd Psalm KJV? All of the Psalms in KJV really.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
So has Paige Patterson and Ronnie Floyd. It’s where the fame and money is.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
Absolutely.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
I wonder how they justify paying royalties for the ESV when the whole purpose of the Holman was to avoid that expense in the SBC literature? We've experienced a Calvinist takeover and watched several through friends. We knew exactly what was happening and tried to sound the alarm but people could not believe that these wonderful young men would do the things they eventually did. I knew enough about their MO that I was predicting each step of the way and still people were surprised. Now that poor church has zero staff because once some of the old stubborn deacons realized they were going to lose their power if they didn't start pushing back the three young staff members resigned all at the same time.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
I think I have it packed away here somewhere. Or did I donate it to the Mathom House? Can’t remember any more – getting a bit hazy.
But then nobody cares what I think, so I’m not worried about it. We’ll leave that to the Great Ones to decide… 🙂 🙂 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ roebuck:
Calvinists don’t grow their churches by evangelism They grow churches by taking members from other churches. It’s all about conversion to Calvinism. Look at the SBC. How many church plants in the last many years and yet membership and baptism continues to decline. All those new church plants are not converting new Christians they’re just stealing members from other churches.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
Too true. We’re not important enough for the rings of power to worry about.
Until we are. Like the Hobbits.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
It’s all so sad. Who are these members they are stealing? What kind of Christians are they? Who are the mega-church Christians anyway? Etc.? The term ‘Christian’ seems to mean just about anything and nothing any more. Seems like very strange times to me…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I see connections between Calvinism and gnosticism in the way the Gnostics called Creation ‘totally depraved’;
and in how the Gnostics thought themselves superior, as in the Calvinist slant on the word ‘elect’;
and, of course, on the ‘special knowledge’ thing that the young neo-Cals seem to revel in where they understand what others are not given to understand;
and finally, I see in Calvinism a gnostic ‘separation’ from humankind in that the Calvinists feel that Our Lord only died for ‘the elect’ and not for mankind.
I think John Calvin must have been great influenced by the pagan Greeks, because even today, the neo-Cals are so devoted to the idea of women being inferiors who are forever to be subordinate to male authority . . . very Platonic, wherein women were ‘incomplete’ beings and men were whole humans
Yeah, there are strange similarities, some more in tune with Greek paganism than with the teachings of the whole Church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
That is an uplifting thought… 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Calvinism, imho, is recycled Augustinianism and Augustine brought a good deal of Platonic and gnostic thought into Christianity from his Manichaean background. A friend of mine has been researching the early church for a few years and shared a lot of information with me that has been truly eye opening. The only “totally depraved”, deterministic types in the days of Ignatius, Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr,etc etc. were the Gnostics and their spinoffs.
Disclaimer: I’m no expert on the early church so if I am wrong, feel free to correct me.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
“For the time will soon come when Hobbits will shape the fortunes of all.”
(Galadriel, LOTR)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ roebuck:
Many Christians are not real deep theologically. So the Calvinists exploit this by first telling them what they actually believe – “you think you save yourself” or “don’t you believe in the Sovereignty of God” It’s all straw men used to first convince naive Christians that what they believe is wrong and then they teach them Calvinism as truth. This appeals to people who want to puff themselves up – now they are part of the club who really know what the Bible says. Of course some people genuinely want to do better at understanding the Bible. What they don’t realize of course is that the Calvinists are deceptive in what they say those who reject Calvinism actually believe. So it’s always hard when you have a conversation with a former “Arminian” because they don’t actually know what people who have rejected Calvinism mean – only what the Calvinists have told them. They think because they didn’t actually know what they thought that they must have had wrong thoughts and now the only right thought is Calvinism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ron Oommen:
There was a guy around these blogs a while ago who explained that the whole paradigm that Western Christianity has been based on is wrong because it starts with Augustinism. This is why Calvinists believe that only their definitions of words like Sovereign are the only definitions.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I've always been fascinated by the emphasis within Western Christianity that is derived from Greek philosophy; as opposed to the Eastern influence on the Church (my godmother was Ukrainian) where there is a respect for mystery and for spirituality.
I suppose the best of the whole Church really IS the whole Church itself, with the traditions of all the early centers of Christianity merged. The beauty and solemnity of the Eastern Church is much needed in the West, I think. We are too cerebral. We want to KNOW all the answers too much. And sometimes theologians make stuff up shaping 'god' into their image of Him. In the East, the mystery of God is respected.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Tina:
Thank you
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bridget:
Thank you for caring.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
I have been told by some that one cannot get the figures for the number of church plant fails.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ishy wrote:
I doubt they will. They are probably proud of their employee.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Linda:
Excellent comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill M:
Great comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lavender wrote:
Well said!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
A drift in theology always leads to a shift in eccesiology. The Southern Baptist rank and file have no idea what is headed their way, as SBC belief and practice merges into full-blown Calvinism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
Darn-what an awful experience with a really self-centered pastor.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Paula Rice:
Please tone it down. I can barely keep up with the comments. Help me out here.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
You know what is so sad? People who sent their hard earned money to the CP– trusted their seminaries. They trust them to prepare young men for ministry.
I don’t buy into that model anymore but I understand the thinking that goes with it. And the confusion people have in churches going through this who don’t know the history or the bigger picture.
I honestly don’t think it can be fixed. We are talking about something seriously sinister. The SBC has churned out thousands and thousands of young men with indoctrinated personality disorders who believe God has called them to deceive people.
I just think we need to call it what it is. It is not a simple matter of doctrinal differences. We have coexisted with the frozen chosen and social gospel Cals for a long time. They did not pick pockets or try to deceive.
It is much more serious than doctrinal differences. They simply want power for the sake of power. They were taught that they are entitled to it. That they are special. For this to end, the money has to dry up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Never, ever forget that pastors are sinners.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Linda wrote:
Yes, I’ve heard that baloney. They are the same young reformers who claim to be “historical” Baptists. Yet another smoke screen to deceive the pew.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
I continue to use the NIV as a subtle form of protest.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Heart broken wrote:
No kidding? Could you expand on this a bit. Sounds interesting.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Jeannette Altes:
Thank you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
Doth thou sayeth that thine NKJV is more modern than sayeth the KJV? Hark! Upon my word! I do sayeth that thou has spoken truly! And I must also declare that I, too, along with my kinsmen, believeth it to be so as well! Upon my oath! I find the beauties of the New King James Version to be of unestimatible worth!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Is there a DSM Code for that?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
This one infuriates me. It stops people cold.
I just ask them why they think I am Jesus Christ. :o)
(That statement is a first step in getting control. Getting people to stop thinking about and living out sanctification, to use a churcy word. It works! But, It is ridiculous. Fire back, folks. They are really little cowardly bullies)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
BOOM!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
Personally, I think they’ve sown the seeds for the collapse of the SBC the way they’ve indoctrinated the YRR. These kids are not going to be able to handle real life for any length of time and it’s only going to lead to a lot of destroyed lives.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Yeah but is the new NIV or the old 1984 version? Cuz if it’s still 1984 you haven’t completely gone down the road to perdition yet.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
They’re eventually going to run out of members to steal and won’t be able to replace the members who leave their churches after they experience all the abuse.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Heart broken wrote:
The Elect of the Elect. How special they are!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
Oh I agree. I have seen major cracks already. I have seen one totally sold out to SBTS and all things Neo Calvin later become athiest because real life tragedy happened and they could not handle such a hateful God who determined what happened to them. Left ministry.
The Puritans died out for a reason. Their descendants became Unitarian, Universalists, etc.
It is an exhausting religion full of vitriol and injustice.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ FW Rez:
Hee hee. The ways to do it are outlined in “Quiet Revolution” by Ernest Reisinger.
psychologists and cult trackers would have a field day with that book.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I agree with that. I actually do not think that the *main* problem with the YRR is Calvinism. I think it is a lust for power of a relatively few men who have persuaded legions of young people that YRR is the way for them to be authentic, serious Christians who can make a difference and recover the Gospel. That is ridiculous, of course, but young people are vulnerable to a Grand Narrative with them at the center. For all the talk of avoiding “man-centered religion” the YRR movement is nothing but man-centered. And male-centered.
The reason I say that Calvinism is not the *main* problem is that I have seen the exact same behavior by a pastor who had strictly congregational rule. No elders. He is not a Calvinist. He is, I believe, narcissistic and rules *his* church. That is what I am most afraid of. Pure narcissism in the name of Jesus.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
True. Not strictly confined to Calvinism. Calvary Chapel is run by alpha male strong men wherever they have a satellite. Authoritarian rule by the pastor has always been their way of doing things.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
Just some thoughts. I think Calvinism makes that lust for power a prerequisite. The interpretive filter behind it is inherently about power and control. Their God is all about power. Calvin himself, was all about power and control. Power is the life blood of that ST. History is a pretty good teacher on this. From Geneva to the Boers to the pro slaver Boyce.
Conversely, I saw the seekers had to hide their ruthlessness. They were all about stage personas, the show, whipping up emotion and entertaining. Church discipline would not work there to the extent it has worked with the Neo Cals. It was more of a social club with a plastic Jesus. All feel good stuff.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
I hear you. Calvinism can provide a very good structure for indoctrinating kids who have come out of generic seeker evangelicalism. It is not your father’s Oldsmobile. Calvinism does have hierarchy at the core, so I think that combination has created a mess for this generation of conservative evangelicals. For all I know, there may be messes in other sectors of the church, but these are the folks I know.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Muff Potter:
Never had contact with Calvary Chapel, but I hear it was a tightly run ship.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I just got a copy of the TNIV (Today’s New International Version), discussed here by posters on other threads, that the Comp-promoting ESV Bible promoters wanted to quash.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
I have seen two versions of the Bible used for The Gospel Project – The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) and the English Standard Version (ESV). I am guessing that there are only two choices.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
We are definitely seeing this in the Raleigh-Durham area.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
John MacArthur was sold to me by other NeoCalvinists as “Biblical” and solid and in The Word, and not like the entertainment mega churches. I went to a new church plant about a decade ago that was started by a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary in Southern California.
I witnessed authoritarian control over members, punishment for dissent (being called in to meetings by the pastors/elders and not being told what it was about), public denouncements, excommunications, and shunnings.
I witnessed good and godly families flee the church, elders and their families who helped start the church, the conservative, married church secretary left, singles left, couples, and just many solid people — never to be heard from again.
John MacArthur’s college (The Master’s College) and seminary really utilize a great deal of mind control over the students, constant questioning, etc, according to the reports of those who planned their escapes from such insufferable control.
I have come to see JMac as a brand and his seminary as a franchisee training ground. The young men are basically being trained to start a franchise like JMac’s.
There’s a complete lack of love in the system. (There are loving, decent people who get caught up in it, of course.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Ditto! I also use the NASB quite a bit. I don't need to go out and buy ANOTHER Bible. 😉
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
I have the older version of the NIV. When I wanted another copy of it to keep at our country home, I went online and bought a used copy since the original is out of print.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
AMEN! The Nones and the Dones continue to increase in number. I wonder why???
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Celia:
You definitely see the big picture. You must have the gift of prophecy (and that's a compliment!)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Paula Rice:
I also have the KJV and the NKJV. Students at the Christian school my daughters attended used the NKJV exclusively.
I also have the New Living Translation and The Message. When I was in college I used the Revised Standard Version (which I still have).
I never plan to own the ESV as a matter of principle. I've gotten this far in my Christian walk without it. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
The Inner Ring of the Inner Ring.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
AKA “Sheep Rustling”.
And just who is it who enters the sheepfold to Steal?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I wouldn’t describe it as sheep rustling. I think that people are dissatisfied with problems at one church and go looking for another church. I went from a mega church (where I’d been invited by a friend) to what seemed like a much smaller, more stable church (several hundred people).
Like Gram3 has pointed out on other threads people frequently miss the red flags/warning signs at the new church, that seems so much different than their former church. I did. I went from an anonymous, superficial mega church to a controlling, authoritarian, Comp-teaching, NeoCalvinist church complete with excommunications and shunnings for the slightest dissent. It was Salem Witch Trials II.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
Bingo!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Last night I posted some links showing Piper’s contradictory teachings. I think his teachings are purposely meant to confuse the flock. That’s bad enough, but this morning I checked his site – the feature article is by Voddie Baucham. It’s been a while since Piper has featured Baucham. He is among the best of the best when it comes to abuse. Here’s one example of many articles about him:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistparenting/2016/05/parenting-advice-that-correlates-with-abuse/.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I am a member of FBC RM, witness to this split. Since the Elder Led vote a year ago,the attitude from pastoral staff and their followers was that the majority of the members were in direct disobedience to God because of not following the pastor’s leadership. Rather than having the belief that God did not will it for the church at this time, they have the arrogance of deciding that we were all sinners and not the Elect. Obvious to many that this split has been planned for some time since this vote failed. How does a person who supposedly walks in Faith and led by the Holy Spirit not see this madness. Amazing to me how many followed this man to this new church. cult like leadership?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I think my kindle bible is an esv because it was either free or really cheap. I have nivs, nkgb and a precious moments bible at home (and I have no idea what that translation is 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
That’s true as well. I’d just add, maybe, the “enlightened Calvinist” sees himself (choice of pronoun not random) as free, but not everyone else, who hasn’t bought into the doctrines of grace. Therefore, he must set them free by any means possible.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
You’ve just described an SBC-YRR church plant near me. Cool preacher, groovy band, feel good – sway to the beat, coffee shop, free donuts, come as you are, nothing expected, plastic Jesus and cookie-cutter followers. But, if you step out of line, the elders will come knocking to discipline, shun and/or excommunicate.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
It is nothing but a cult. As long as you stay in line all is well. Step out of line and you are in big trouble.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
I prefer the KJV – the version the Apostles carried 🙂
Actually, I have several translations in my library for Scripture comparison, but keep retreating back to my KJV Thompson Chain Reference Bible where I have a lifetime of underlines and marginal notes.
As noted earlier, I’m sure Crossway is tickled to death (laughing all the way to the bank) when New Calvinist icons (who they publish) promote their ESV.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
Now there is a name that gives me the creeps. I am trying to remember exactly how Voddie phrased it but he basically taught that older men need the attention of young females and that is why their relationship with their daughter was important. It was in some series he did on male authority.
I just remember that the evangelical watch dog blogosphere just about blew up over it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mot wrote:
John Piper even excommunicated his own son, Abraham! (true story)
Another son, Barnabas, wrote a book entitled “The Pastor’s Kid” where he talks about growing up in the Piper household. In an interview pertaining to the book, he noted “Those who are huge fans might be surprised to know that our family has a lot of tensions and quirks. We have dysfunction and conflict. We don’t always get along very well. It’s not the idyllic repository of peace and knowledge they might have painted a picture of in their heads.”
Beware of smoke and mirrors in the ministries of New Calvinist leaders.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
The ESV Study Bible suggests that it is permissible to conceal truth in order to mislead. In the section Biblical Ethics: An Overview it asks that very question. This is the answer – “..whether or not one believes that God ever approves of false statements, there are surely conditions under which it is appropriate to tell someone less than one knows or believes. For example, candour – being totally frank, or saying exactly what is on ones mind – must be used judiciously. Charity should temper how one responds to another person. To say to the pastor bluntly ‘Your sermon was terrible’, would not be edifying but destructive….In any case, the obligation never to speak a falsehood does not imply that one has an obligation to tell everything that one knows. There are many times when silence is appropriate (cf.Matt.26:63)
Note how it’s bad to criticise the pastor whose feelings you may hurt but it seems to be okay to hide the fact that you are a New Calvinist when applying to pastor a church and that you are planning changes to the polity and governance of that church. What is particularly offensive to me is that they try to justify the deception by citing Christ’s silence before Pilate (where there was no deception at all).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lowlandseer wrote:
Whoa! There it is! Now we know why these young Calvinists have no qualms about lying to non-Calvinist church search committees about their theological persuasion! If it’s for the good of the movement, it’s OK.
In an upstream comment, Lydia made a comment about Chrislam. If you’ve ever done any reading about Muhammad, you may know about his treatment of the Quraysh tribe to gain control over them. When they outnumbered his own army, he formed a (false) peace treaty with them and then broke it when his army was of sufficient strength to overpower them. To this day, “The Quarysh Model” is used in the Middle East … it’s OK to lie to your enemy. (America take note when you sit down at the peace table).
To the YRR, I borrow an Abraham Lincoln quote “It is never right to do wrong.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Darlene:
The ESV study Bible states “The Trinity provides the ultimate model for relationships within the body of Christ and marriage”(p 2515. And on the previous page this “The uniform pattern of Scripture is that the Father plans, directs and sends; the Son is sent by the Father and is subject to the Father’s authority and be didn’t to the Father’s will…”( that well known mantra of Wayne Grudem).
So in marriage, as in the church, “do as you are told, we (the pastor, elder, husband) know best! ” The ESV is a Complementarian handbook for people who can’t think for themselves, in my opinion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
And from Jesus, I borrow the following. Regarding those who operate by stealth and deception in the church, Jesus said “You are of your father the devil, and it is your will to practice the desires [which are characteristic] of your father … When he lies, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and half-truths” (John 8:44 AMP).
Just what have these folks been “elected” to?!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Witness wrote:
So when 9Marks says elder-led but congregational-ruled, they actually mean elder-ruled. What is the point of even taking a vote except for appearances? Seen that before in multiple totalitarian regimes, but those were explicitly not the church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
You will get put on a “care” list like Karen Hinckley so you can be “cared for” if you allow yourself to be “pushed under” “care.” But your alternative is to “resign into thin air” and the elders must not let that happen.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lowlandseer wrote:
However, if you tell a woman that she is rebellious and wants to usurp her husband’s authority because she does not see any warrant from the Biblical text for Female Subordination and she does not see any warrant from the Biblical text for ESS and no warrant from the actual text for females being created in the derivative image of God then that is good and righteous and edifying to said woman. She should receive such doctrine with great joy! Or, as Owen would say, “She should be thrilled!!!!!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Lord, you would think there would be enough horror stories floating around in communities where this occurs that those churches would be empty by now! One thing I’ve noticed about sheep on the farms in my area – when one sheep moves, the rest follow, even if it is not a good idea. But in this case, it would be a great idea to take the lead of a sheep which goes astray (rebels against the patriarchy). Too many stay, I guess, because sheep need a shepherd and will trust them to the bitter end.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
And their two-faced, backstabbing God delegates power to them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lowlandseer wrote:
I actually did that once on the way out of a church I visited. It was true – that sermon was terrible and filled with error! But, of course, I told that pastor the truth in love. He looked at me like a raccoon caught in the headlights of a car when I pointed out what Scripture ‘really’ said about his sermon topic. It was not time to edify, but time to rebuke and correct the brother. I always hoped he found my comment to be helpful in future sermon preparation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This post should be a must-read for all churches who don’t want to be taken over by the YRR. Beware. Even though we live in Raleigh, we attend a Baptist church at the coast on a regular basis. The pastor, whose degree is from Southwestern, is excellent, excellent. Anyway, a lady member told me a few months ago that she was on the search committee for an associate pastor. The pastor warned them about the neo-Cals and their sneaky ways. In an interview with a candidate, they asked all the probing questions which made them think he was not Reformed. Then the pastor did some further research on this candidate and suspected a closet Calvinist. Sure enough, he did some razor-sharp questioning of the candidate and he admitted he was reformed. This lady said that either this candidate was desperate for a job or he was going to sneak in his theology. This pastor is S M A R T and will have none of it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
Because they are conforming themselves to His image.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w
Except the sons of Calvin take this BBC comedy bit as TRUTH.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Holding the Whip by Divine Right.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lowlandseer:
Ok. The ESV as a Bible translation is not bad but the neo Cals have added “study helps” that are bad. It’s the actually Bible part but the added helps.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
Should read It’s NOT the actually Biblical text but he added study helps that are bad.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
I have an NIV that was given to me by one of my high school teachers as a graduation gift in 1982.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
I remember it as something like “As a man gets old, his eye turns to younger women. That’s why God gives him daughters.”
Go down that road without the word salad and you get “Incest is Best!” and Craster’s Keep:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Angel of Light mask, check…
“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS!
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS!
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND!
COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
— Emerson Lake & Palmer, “Karn Evil Nine, First Impression, Part 2”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48
Unicorns farting Rainbows, Free Ice Cream, and a little momento from classic Dr Demento:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khf3t1GQZMw
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
— Lord Voldemort
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the powerless. Do you want to see the Future, 6079 Smith W? A boot stamping on a man’s face. Forever. LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
“For the hearts of Men are easily corrupted, and a Ring of POWER has a Will of its own.”
— J.R.R.Tolkien(?)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
“I pasrticularly enjoyed writing Flim and Flam. They’re villains, but they’re designed to be charming and entertaining. They speak very quickly. They finish each other’s sentences. Evertything they do is designed to dazzle and confuse people, so they can shake your hand while stealing your wallet.”
— writer Mitch Larsen, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, the Official Guidebook
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Witness wrote:
Whatever would God do on J-Day without Pastor Wormtongue at His right hand to tell Him who’s Really Elect and who’s NOT?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Witness wrote:
If you are asking I’ll venture an answer of yes. Now that this “pastor” has taken a bunch of people who are comfortable submitting to his rule there will be continuing stories. Abuse seems inevitable.
I am sorry you had to endure this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
From an unpublished SF novella of mine:
She looked up at Tan with blazing green eyes. His ears started to drop.
“And not just attempted assassination. The way they attempted it. Under cover of a peace overture. Do you know the human word ‘Hudna’?”
Tan didn’t, but Astrid continued, emphasizing each word.
“Old Arabic for ‘ceasefire’ or ‘truce’. Since the Islamic Wars, Chinglish for ‘Pretend to make peace with the Infidel, then when his guard is down, strike and kill!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hi HEADLESS,
I’ve wondered for years HOW this great and secret knowledge of ‘being elect’ is conveyed. LOL, your comment gives one perspective: the neo-Cals will tell God who’s in and who’s out. After all, they seem to possess an ‘authority’ that has decided Our Lord Himself is a ‘subordinate’ for all eternity, and so the neo-Cals casually and authoritatively put Him in His place?
I cannot BELIEVE the arrogance of this strange cult-like group. Angels have fallen for less than this kind of mockery.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head. It’s the hurt that is really difficult to get past. How did your Church move forward. There are so many hurting. Ezekiel 34
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Deb:
I just realized I’ve never purchased a bible for myself! Each one has been given to me as a gift, beginning with the one my grandmother gave me! God has been so good to me and I’m so grateful for His Word which is a constant source of fellowship and encouragement.
For me the Bible stands as Exhibit #1 of the progressive nature of God’s revelation to us since the Scriptures weren’t written in one sitting by one person. It’s exciting to see the growth and expansion of Christ’s ministry on earth. There’s simply no greater news than the Good News!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That was such a creepy quote!!
Also kind of reminds me of a song on crazy ex girlfriend ‘I love my daughter but not ina creepy way: https://youtu.be/wSj2wy7ZJVo
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Paula Rice wrote:
Amen Paula! May we all be ambassadors for Christ – there is no better news to share!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
My ex-church was a NeoCalvinist/9Marks/John MacArthur-ite church. The pastors/elders sneak in The Elect brain-washing in a variety of ways. When they introduce new members they say that God knew before the beginning of time that this person was among The Elect, chosen to be saved.
If anyone disagrees with them, asks a question, has critical thinking skills, they are called into meetings with the pastors/elders, not told what it’s about, not permitted to bring a witness, and bullied behind closed doors by pastors/elders, screamed at, etc., and the chairman of the elder board reads a Scripture that you “must not be one of us”, and basically to get ready to be shunned/excommunicated.
Then the pastors/elders hold closed door meetings, after the Sunday church service, with all members present. They announce that [name of man or woman] is under church discipline, how long they’ve worked with that person to no avail, lie to church members, tell everyone to “pursue that person” (basically criminally harass them/stalk them) “to repent”, and/or ‘have nothing to do with them, they aren’t one of us.’
A godly, sweet, kind (volunteers with the elderly at convalescent hospitals and with the mentally ill at group homes), giving, middle-aged, married, professional woman had it with this bizarre, authoritarian church and left for a saner denomination. The senior pastor went to her home and screamed at her, according to my interview with her. He told the congregation that she “wasn’t submissive to her husband” who was still going to the church.
This dear woman responded to this harassment by moving out of the family home to an undisclosed location not even known to her husband, disconnecting her cell phone, and disconnecting her email account.
The pastors/elders did the same to a godly doctor, a personal friend of pastor John MacArthur’s, a man in his 70’s, faithful and loving husband and father. He’d questioned how the pastors/elders were leading the church in private, using the Scriptures. And they made him pay for it.
And finally it was my turn to be excommunicated over the issue of child safety, and the pastors/elders bringing their friend a felon (convictions involve kids), telling no one,
and giving him membership and access to kids. I found him on Megan’s List by accident!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Dear God, what a terrible account of what happens when the Baptist tradition of ‘soul freedom’ is replaced by the neo-Cal authoritarian model of human male sovereignty. I hope that poor woman survived her ordeal. Is it known if her husband ever stood by her in the end? Very sad story, this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
Not strictly the case. The ESV refuses to properly translate gendered pronouns from Greek to English. For example, while the pronoun “andros” is masculine, all the other koine literature shows us that “andros” just refers to “human” (in much the same way that English refers to “MANkind”). In fact, andros is used to refer to Nefertiti in one reference (which I forget just now). The ESV translators, however, chose to translate this word as male gendered. I don’t know if this was influenced by by their patriarchy or was just a throwback to when English could use male gendered substantives to refer to both (actually, “all” is the better term) genders. The fact remains, however, that the meaning of the text is sometimes obscured by this poor translation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Seriously. He even quoted Psalm 18:26 and other scriptures to demonstrate that it is ok by God to use deception. Consider for example this wonderful word salad contradiction by John Piper that lays it out there pretty plainly:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-lie
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Can you point to one of the word for word translations which isn’t using the male gendered substantives to refer to both? It’s been a while since I’ve looked at how translators translate but I’m pretty sure your criticism would apply to all those who are in the word for word category.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
These pastors and leaders are evil people as far as I am concerned! I’m not sure they would know Jesus if he stood right in front of them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
Synopsis well put Lyds. It’s a land of extremes for sure. It explains why some of their former and most fervent devotees jump ship and become atheists. We used to have a guy visit us here at TWW who at one time was an apologist for reformed thought and who is now a full-on atheist.
In my area there’s a guy on ixtian talk radio who brags about how he used to be a new-age practitioner of sorts and who now claims to be “on fire for the Lord”.
You know it’s funny, but for all the bad-mouthing of the bad-old-days, and don’t get me wrong, there was indeed a lot of bad stuff, but they seemed to have a better handle on balance, reason, and common sense.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
This is why the term “Chrislam” is so appropriate: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lydia:
I’m a little confused as to what the Neo Calvinist motive is to sneakily take over so many churches and win people to Calvinism.
In their theology, doesn’t God make all choices? Doesn’t God predetermine who is the elect or not, etc, and so on?
If so, what is the point in doing anything? What is the point in trying to plant Calvinist churches, or take over churches in the name of Calvinism?
If God wanted John Doe to be a Calvinist, then doesn’t God do that on his own, rather than having to rely on Joe Calvinist to do the converting?
If God controls everything, and God wants 90% of churches in America to be Calvinist, then he’ll find a way and doesn’t need Calvinists trying to steal churches.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
John Piper’s site has a section called “Ask Pastor John.” I don’t consider myself a complete internet novice, but I have yet to find a way to submit an actual question on that site. I have not been able to find a “Contact” link. So I don’t know where he gets his supply of questions. But the “Donate” tab is easy enough to find.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
I have multiple KJV's too! Bought the Celebrate Jesus Milennium Bible sold by LifeWay which was the 'Classic King James'. I have 2 copies of it which I bought for my daughters when it came out. They use different Bibles now.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bill M:
Perhaps they will come across this post at some point in the future (when the scales fall off their eyes) and realize what REALLY happened.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Either he is VERY confused (my guess), or he is a heretic having created a ‘god’ who actively creates evil, rather than a God who permits evil but does not commit evil deeds. In any case, in thinking that God authors evil, Piper is departing from orthodox Christianity big time.
I think he is confused. Old age doesn’t always bring ‘wisdom’, sometimes it can bring medical changes that affect judgment. Someone mentioned ‘fluttering hands’ and maybe that is a medical symptom.(???) I’d want to give him the benefit of the doubt before I’d call him a ‘heretic’, assuming he ever believed in the God of traditional Christianity, but he is in error, here.
I wish he had a group of honorable people around him to help him instead of what sounds like a bunch of sycophants who praise his every word. He needs help.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Heart broken wrote:
Thank you for this! It applies so well. There’s no shortage of churches in the US… there’s just a shortage of love and listening and reconciliation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Here’s a link: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/11/the-role-of-doug-phillips-daughters.html.
Voddie Baucham was a rising start in the YRR crowd until people started getting too creeped out by the things he was teaching. A few years ago he ended up leading a ministry somewhere in Africa. It thought he was pretty much a YRR has-been. That’s why I was so surprised to see him get the top billing on Piper’s site on Father’s day. Piper should be distancing himself from Baucham, not endorsing him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
I study from Bullinger’s Companion Bible. First published in 1921 (King James Version), it’s available in reprint form from Kregel Publications. I love the lilting beauty of the Elizabethan prose, always have, Psalm 23 simply does not have the same ring of comfort in the ‘newer’ translations.
It is not a commentary, nor does it promote any particular ‘doctrine’ or ideology.
The margins and the extensive appendices are chock full of scholarship and factual data from which readers can allow the text to speak for itself and draw their own conclusions about what Scripture says or does not say.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
As someone who watched this from the outside and attends neither church, perhaps I can lend some facts to the speculation: this was a sad state of affairs, for sure, as it is sad when any church is rent in two. I think God weeps at this. However, since everything you’ve written has been “we’ve heard” or “it seems,” I think it’s irresponsible to place all the blame on people following one leader in a cult-like way. There is a divide in ways of thinking in baptists that spans generations (not just the last few years) that separates those who believe different things about church government. Assuming that people that believe one way about it are being led astray while others are thinking rightly about it sounds self-righteous and hopefully that’s not what all these commenters mean. I know for a fact that this new church (I agree with not calling it a church plant) was not planned over the span of a year. I also know that they are not receiving funding from namb or otherwise. When you have a church of 300+ from the jump you don’t have to take a pay cut; the members tithe like usual.
As a former pastor’s kid who has been through public family disgrace, I have a very sensitive BS monitor. Though Dennis is smooth like some say, he has been honest with FBCRM from the beginning and not the liar people are claiming. I’ve witnessed his honesty with this congregation on multiple congregations. The rumors and lies that the members of FBCRM have circulated have hurt a lot of people and I hope that they and you (Dee, Deb, and anyone else commenting) will remember that when you’re discussing ideas that’s one thing, but when you begin to speculate and gossip about people’s fathers, brothers, sisters, moms, etc, you can really hurt people.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Velour:
We must have brave men and women who are watchmen on the walls-educated and able to spot these people from a distance.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
This often does happen, and people certainly should move on if a congregation is harming them and unwilling to treat the flock better.
However, some churches do set themselves up as New! and Exciting! just like retailers–and people follow fashion.
My least favorite are the churches that set themselves up as Righteous, Not Like Those Churches Full Of False Teaching And Sinners And Yes I’m Talking About YOU.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Friend wrote:
I wonder if these churches acknowledge themselves as sinners? Or have they become like the Cathars and see themselves as ‘pure’? Or like the Lapsi who once said that IF a baptized Christian fell into sin again (relapsed) they could not be forgiven?
Or is it just the old Pharisee thing, remodeled and put out for consumption for them what harbors Phariseeism in their hearts?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Even that story has details that make me wonder. Here’s how Piper relates it: http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/should-a-pastor-continue-in-ministry-if-one-of-his-children-proves-to-be-an-unbeliever.
I read somewhere that Piper said he continued to meet his son for lunch even after the excommunication. Meeting him for lunch is not excommunication because excommunication means “out of communion.” Another word for that is “shun.” All he did was let the elders kick him out of the church so that he would not have to step down as the senior pastor. It strikes me as crass for him to make such a public spectacle of it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Exactly. And it usually takes a few years to see what is going on. That’s how they keep this going.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
I am grateful for your outsider's perspective. The congregation of FBCRM expressed their desire regarding church polity a year ago when they voted down the elder-led model of church governance.
In my opinion, if the lead pastor was not willing to abide by their wishes, he should have resigned on the spot. Instead, he hung around for a year and divided the congregation.
Perhaps you are not aware that this has played out all over the country in Southern Baptist churches. It is harmful to unsuspecting congregations, and that's why we are exposing it.
Forewarned is forearmed. Caveat emptor!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
I see it as anti-evangelism: Make others feel dirty and bad for not going to their pure church, whose members will have heaven all to themselves.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I wouldn’t mind so much their using ‘man’ as in mankind if the ‘get back in your place woman’ folks didn’t make so much hay of it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
He is a clever “business man”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Deb:
I currently have 25 Bibles in my study. From the Geneva Bible 1599, Companion Bible,ESV Study Bible, Reformation Heritage KJV, Zondervan NIV Study Bible, NASB, RSV, RV, to the Catholic Study Bible. They all speak to a part of my life that's gone before. Pride of place though goes to an old Family Bible that records the marriage of my great, great grandfather in 1832 in Carlisle, England.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
I first read about Baucham and what he was selling back in the ’00 years just after the turn of the century. A steaming pile of horse poo-poo is the best way to describe it. But now, with his blather about young virginal daughters and such, it reads high on the creepometer too. Like rads on a geigercounter.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Gram3:
Speaking of “hand picked” They “handpicked” people to “plant” new church…Sent out letters inviting who they wanted. And I wouldn’t call it a church plant- more like ripping a beautiful garden and taking as many fruits with you as possible. (Or what you consider the “best”) It’s like someone divorcing abruptly to “plant” a new family?????
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The issue of church splits, and denominational splits, and the splits that accompanied the reformation is not viewed the same by everybody. Should ‘unity’ be preserved at all costs? The whole reformation said no. Maybe it is not all that simple.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
I appreciate what you are saying, but the fact is that too many of us have seen behind the curtain in churches where there are still people who say the same things you are saying. I hope you can understand how that perspective shapes how we interpret what we hear.
A church split is always tragic, and people are always hurt. The responsibility for seeing that this does not happen is on leadership. There is a new philosophy of ministry, and it has nothing to do with either Jesus Christ or the New Testament. There are lots of people like me and Gramp3 who are Dones. Perhaps that is because we are too old. Or perhaps it is because we remember a time when Baptist churches were not ruled from above but from Above via the Holy Spirit. That is no longer trendy, and too many people seek after the latest trend.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Muff Potter:
“You know it’s funny, but for all the bad-mouthing of the bad-old-days, and don’t get me wrong, there was indeed a lot of bad stuff, but they seemed to have a better handle on balance, reason, and common sense.”
+++++++++++
it’s very true. just now, i was ruminating on how to explain to my mom why we (I, her daughter, my husband and our kids/her grandkids) don’t put a priority on church & mostly do not attend.
the best explanation i can give her is to explain that it just is not the same place as it was in past decades. so many weird, non-intuitive, restrictive, pressure-filled, and extreme things are now standard operating procedure.
it all was so much simpler and happier in times past. relationships organically happened, nothing forced or engineered, people were free to pursue divine and human relationships based on a handful of clearly discernible premises (God loves us, forgives us, helps us; it is right to be kind, honest, generous, patient). and people took initiative — it was a natural response.
i tend to think the more controlling the envirnoment (even when it feels benign), the more people turn off initiative. the more consumerist it becomes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
The married couple almost divorced over this. Her husband proudly stood with the senior pastor who ran his wife into the ground, saying that she wasn’t “submissive” to her husband. Her husband has bought the Comp/NeoCal brain-washing. A real man would have never permitted his wife to be treated like garbage, in my opinion.
The wife refused to return to this abusive NeoCalvinist church and the senior pastor had to announce during the yearly members’ meeting that they had to “let her go”. No kidding.
It’s America, pal. She can go to whatever place of worship she wants to.
I personally think that these NeoCal pastors should be arrested and criminally prosecuted for stalking, criminal conspiracy, etc. I think that getting arrested and prosecuted might be the wake up call they need.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
And I'm sure you realize that that is exactly what the YRR and Gospel Glitterati say about all those who went before them. And paved the way for them. They say that those people (people like me and so many others) led people astray. The real question is who looks more like Jesus? Who is urging people to be conformed to his image and not to the image of the latest American Pulpit or Podcast Idol?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Friend wrote:
Welcome, to my ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marks/John MacArthur-ite church. Hindsight is 20/20 as the saying goes. I wanted a smaller, more solid church from a big mega church. I didn’t realize, as Gram3 has pointed out, that in leaving one bad church I completely missed the red-flags/warning signs about the new church, which on the surface seemed so different than the old church.
The mega church require no accountability. The small church had Membership Covenants, elder-led, Matthew 18:15-17 (Biblical church discipline), and we were told that the “pastors/elders watched over our lives.” They had Nouthetic Counseling/Biblical Counseling. I didn’t realize that the “watch over your lives” was the heavy-Shepherding movement from the 1970’s in a new disguise and just as toxic, that Membership Covenants were about Authoritarian control and didn’t apply to the church leaders or the inner circle, that “church discipline” was applied capriciously to any one that disagreed with the leaders (no matter how benign the disagreement), that Biblical Counseling was just a bunch of untrained, uneducated, unlicensed quacks/leaders running their mouthes about serious life problems and having to sit there and listen to their insufferable arrogance.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Yes- those that were selected to plant- I suppose “the elect” are VERY proud and constantly boasting about their great church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mot wrote:
The NeoCalvinist Pharisee pastors/elders would kick out Jesus too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
“Though Dennis is smooth like some say, he has been honest with FBCRM from the beginning and not the liar people are claiming. I’ve witnessed his honesty with this congregation on multiple congregations. The rumors and lies that the members of FBCRM have circulated have hurt a lot of people and I hope that they and you (Dee, Deb, and anyone else commenting) will remember that when you’re discussing ideas that’s one thing, but when you begin to speculate and gossip about people’s fathers, brothers, sisters, moms, etc, you can really hurt people.”
+++++++++++++
you describe yourself as someone who has watched from the outside and attends neither church.
you know nothing of what has happened behind closed doors. if you weren’t there (on a consistent basis or perhaps ever) you do not know what things were implied or inferred or the subtle spin in how things were communicated to the congregation.
i have to say that you, Elizabeth, have begun to speculate yourself, which has the potential to be just as hurtful. you have explicitly told the people who directly experienced what went down at FBCRM that they are liars. how in the world can you make such an assertion? you weren’t even there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
Why do you say ALL the blame? Re-reading the comments the blame was put on the Darville. People following this divisive “pastor” is a secondary question. Darville divided the church in only three years and I have not seen an explanation that makes his actions sound reasonable. I often hear similar allusions to “I don’t know the rest of the story”, if there are specifics please supply them. I simply cannot connect honesty with this outcome.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
you might add ‘alienation of affections’ to those charges, except that the ‘husband’ fell for the neo-Cal line willingly, so HE bears the responsibility of breaking his solemn marriage vows in participating in his wife’s torment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
No, but when the congregation is upset, the first impulse should not be to grandstand about leaving. When my denomination was having problems, agitators among the parish mothers’ group said that we should either storm off to All Straights Church or withhold donations we had pledged to the parish. (Pledges are included in the annual budget, so this gesture was intended to harm.)
There was an illusion that we had to pick a side and fight. I tried to bring about reconciliation within the group, but the group eventually foundered. Parish survived, did not leave the denomination, and slowly recovered. I genuinely miss the dissenters, who gradually left for one reason or another.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Well “alienation of affection” is a civil tort, brought by a person and not the state/government against a person (who brings criminal charges). I still think criminal charges followed by a civil lawsuit would take the wind out of their arrogant sails.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Agreed.
I also don’t know how these pastors/elders’ wives can stand their husbands. I would have ZERO respect for a man that lied, bullied, and threatened people – including in public.
I wouldn’t want a guy like that touching me. I would just despise him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Here’s the first one that should be asked by the search committee in an SBC non-Calvinist traditional church:
“Are you a Calvinist? Don’t lie to us, boy. Are you a Calvinist?!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Going through the split at FBCRM is heartbreaking what has been the most heartbreaking is watching families who were extremely close torn apart. Also people who have been friends for 20, 30,40 years- who have walked through life together – birth of children, marriages, deaths etc, NOT even able to really speak to one another. There are some ppl who know EXACTLY what happened, how it happened, and then there are others who know some, then there are still others who know nothing. At the very heart of this mess is one person. One man and it all stems from him. His name is Dennis Darville.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
“Leaders” like this are generally paper tigers. They want to use the membership covenants as a hammer, but most of written as swords that can slice in two directions. I am not a legal expert, but I suspect it would be entirely possible to file a restraining order against leaders in a church who use “intrusive leadership” tactics to strong-arm parishioners. And there might be wording in the membership covenant about the care that the leaders are supposed to provide. If so, I’m guessing a good lawyer could use that to good effect to get the church to back off. Has anyone ever tried to sue an abusive church to recover tithes?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
brian wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dennis Danville is the type of person who wants to be in control of everything and if you don’t agree with him, he will find a way to get you out of the church. He bullied several families out of FBC RMT. Those who followed him to his new church have put him above God which is wrong. Hope their eyes will be open to see that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Friend wrote:
Oh, yeah. That reminds me of ‘I am going to take my dolls and go home’ out of the mouth of a child. She may need to do that, but not before efforts have been made for a better solution.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Everybody loves clarity. Rules are appealing, even if they’re hard to obey. The more I think about Jesus, though, the more I see him penetrating the gray area, the mysterious part of life, the human heart, the mind. That’s where sin and repentance are found. A committee of elders cannot know any of this, no matter how clear the rules. They might stand a chance of analyzing actions (such as criminal convictions), but those seem oddly irrelevant.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
As my favorite teen’s UNC t-shirt says, “HEEL YEAH!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
When a pastor is not forthcoming with a church regarding his Calvinistic beliefs prior to taking the job, that’s deception. Especially when he applies his doctrine to church polity. This is dangerous and the result is a church split in many cases.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lavender wrote:
Or a Coup from Within, followed by a Purge/Cleansing in the Name of Calvin.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
I keep hearing that in Mel Blanc’s Foghorn Leghorn voice…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
How did Camille Cosby stick with a husband who was not only a womanizer, but proved to be a rape-drug sexual predator?
The money, the perqs, and the CELEBRITY of being the Big Man’s Little Woman.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
How about “Divide and Conquer” or “Divide and Rule”?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Re: what Elizabeth said regarding Darville’s integrity is interesting; don’t know how you reconcile starting a competing church and taking a significant portion of the congregation with him. Splitting a church is beyond the pale for me–a beyond words selfish act, especially over polity.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Plus turn him over to the Magistrates for Crucifixion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth, at what point in his tenure there did Darville inform the congregation of his intent to leave the church, start a new one in the area and essentially split the congregation? I am doubting they would have hired him had he been forthright with his plans in the beginning.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Just like “I’m an M.B.A. and…” CEOs and top managers who leave a trail of bankrupt companies in their wake, paying for their yachts and private jets with the golden parachutes from all those dead companies.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“Boy, I said Boy, are you a Calvinist?”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
He writes his own?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mot wrote:
“CRUCIFY HIM!!!!!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Like Fight Club, you never talk about how. That’s part of the Great and Sekrit Knowledge, the Occult Gnosis known only to the Ascended Masters and Inner Ring of Illuminati.
Or maybe it’s like “Tap Night” for Skull & Bones at Yale — one night they knock on your door with “Accept or Reject?” and spirit you away to the Initiation Rite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSpOjj4YD8c
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Celia wrote:
Well for starters, I think the ESV translation committee would be offended by your characterization of their work as “word-for-word”. Perhaps you did not mean it as a pejorative, but that is how it would sound to a translator (this is because it is fundamentally impossible, so anyone claiming to do so would be ignorant, a liar, or possibly both). A phrase that the ESV translation committee does use, however, is “essentially literal”. Among the essentially literal translations that properly interpret male gendered substantives that refer to all genders include the NASB and NIV in some places. The KJV is probably the best here, but it is masked because the male gendered substantives in English at the time referred to both genders. However, the conversation would not be complete if we didn’t add that we have learned quite a bit about how koine works in the last 30-50 years, so the ESV and newer translations should be held to a different standard than the translators of older versions.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
If you read Piper’s writing that I linked, he doesn’t even say that God permits deception – he says that God ordained deception as a means to judge sin. Typical word salad.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HEADLESS, go ahead and blame them!
Reason? Well, the Crucifixion has eternal implications in that all of humanity’s sins of all time put Our Lord on the cross, so the sins of the Neo-Cal Pharisee pastors are INCLUDED in that, by virtue of transcending time and being as much a part of the Crucifixion as if they WERE there …. we modern Christians like to think ‘our’ sins didn’t nail Christ to the cross, but we need to get over that, and deal with the reality of Christ crucified.
“This thought should keep us humble:
We are sinners, but we do not know how great.
He alone knows Who died for our sins.”
(John Henry Newman)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
While the courts are generally loathe to get involved in church matters, I think a church member with money could hire the right litigators who could sue this type of church/elders for NOT spelling out the terms of the Membership contract, as is required to do by law.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Maybe she meant formal equivalence (vs. dynamic) (?)
Either term is just a way of describing the approach the translators used.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I guess so HUG. Sad, eh?
I also think some of these pastors/elders’ wives may be biding their time, waiting to raise children and get them graduated from high school, before filing for divorce. Because when they leave, if they ever do, they will lose everything and have their reputations trashed.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
The strange thing about NeoCalvinists, and this whole argument about being The Elect of God, chosen before you were born, is that why would God have to bother with Jesus’ birth, death and resurrection? If God already knew where everybody is going – Heaven or Hell – and it was all predetermined that it makes Jesus redundant.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
I’m wondering if a restraining order could be obtained if one attempts to leave a church but they won’t let you and continue to hound you. But in that case I would think the restraining order(s) would be against particular people. But even a well written letter by an attorney to the church could make a difference. Once a person is legally represented in a manner it is against the law to personally contact them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Calvinists are not deep thinkers. The whole system is a house of cards.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’ve never had my IQ measured because I’m afraid to find out I could be an idiot. Ignorance is bliss in this case.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Do you have a link or a reference? I would like to read on this. Both andro- and gyne- are used in words to indicate male and female in medical vocabulary. So I checked on line dictionaries and they say for andro- male, man, masculine, and also I got the information that it was from classical Greek.
The thing is, it was not just bible translators who were dealing with this issue. So, sure, everyday usage may differ when a language becomes rather a linqua franca, I get that, but it seems strange that this information is just now coming forth. It is not that I don’t believe you; it just seems odd.
Thanks.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Spot on, Ken.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
I think a restraining order would be appropriate, although the NeoCalvinists will accuse you of going to court before unbelievers (gasp, manipulation).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
But at that point it wouldn’t matter because they would already think you are a non-elect goat. I would think it a badge of honor to be accused by such dishonorable people.
Also, I continued my nearly uninterrupted streak of typos. I meant to type matter, not manner.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
Yes. Anyone that disagrees with them is not among The Elect. I know. It happened to me too.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Regardless of potentially enabling an ability to do “theologymnastics,” high IQ will never be an accurate or automatic measure of strong conscience about right and wrong (and the commitment to do what’s right), or compassion for those harmed, or for following through on one’s word.
This is the beauty of real discipleship and following Jesus Christ and developing Christlike character — it is open to all, by the empowerment and equipping of the Holy Spirit, and is not some mere function of intellect.
Which gives us a potentially good indicator of any theology that is on a disastrous trajectory: It will ignore, downplay, or redefine the sanctification roles of the Holy Spirit in the everyday life of the disciple. (And usually replace it with the voice of overseers, and their systems of rules and ex cathedra decrees.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Christiane:
Is it not a basic tenet of Calvinist thought that God is the author of evil? At least I have come across a fair bit of material from Calvinists that suggests that. Eg. RC Sproul Jr explicitly claims that in a book he wrote.
God is the author of evil and sin and caused the sin of Adam and Eve, so I was preached to by a know-it-all. But we are under judgment for our sin, even though God caused it because it glorifies Him. You can't make this up….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
Oh my. I don’t know what to say, except that people who promulgate this nonsense are going to find themselves in deep doo doo. I didn’t realize Sproul was such a wack-job.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ron Oommen:
I believe there are two or three places in the OT where God allegedly claims to be the author of evil. I looked this up last time this came up, but this time somebody else can do it if they want.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
Mormons operate the same way Max. It's okay to lie and deceive in the end. The means justify the end.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Kind of like “elections” in communist countries. All about appearance in the end.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
Yes. And the whole NeoCalvinist argument that God permitted some really bad thing to happen to you. It makes a person feel horrible, and horrible about God. It’s a betrayal.
How could a loving Father permit evil to happen to one of His children that He claims to love.
To me the Third Commandment against misusing God’s name is really not about cussing but the larger and more serious issue of dishonoring the character of God.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Some of this is addressed in the ESV and Wayne Grudem post I wrote.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I googled the phrase “word for word Bible Translation” and there were several on the first page where the phrase was not used as a perjorative but is as you say meant as “essentially literal” As I stated earlier it has been a while since my husband and I researched the different Bible translations. Our disagreement here is whether the ESV should be held to a different standard as the other “essentially literal” translations. Regardless, having issue with the Bible study notes of a Bible vs having issues with the translation – and all translations have varying degrees of issues – is not the same argument. Now the fact the Calvinists own Crossway the publisher is certainly an issue and a reason for not recommending any of the ESV Bibles even the ones without all the study helps.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
Why doesn't Dennis come on here and give his side of the story? Explain the facts. I am open to hearing that side of the story.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Yes, so do I. That’s why I think these people are in grave danger…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Lol! You’re a riot HUG!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Blanc was a genius at his craft. Porky Pig and Daffy Duck are American icons that still make kids young and old laugh to this day.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
Yes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
This is a very tricky topic that gets into the question of whether God is all good but not all powerful, or all powerful but not all good. I like the Easter Orthodox idea of calling it a mystery. Calvinists reject mystery and claim it’s all determined by God’s sovereignty. I saw MacArthur answer the question about how God chooses which to save and which to condemn,and he smugly (not winsomely) answered, “mystery.” So even Calvinists have to appeal to mystery at some point. And so do atheists. Ask an atheist about the exquisite fine tuning of the universe and they will appeal to random chance, which is just a different way of saying, “mystery.” We cannot get away from the mystery factor. All we can do, perhaps, is to choose when to invoke it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
He of the “I left an old email address on Ashley Madison and never used its services” fame. For which Ligonier ministries (run by his daddy) disciplined him by placing him in paid leave until June/July this year.
Why the need for discipline if God authored his sin?
And discipline for his sin is a ln extended paid vacation?
Tis all about the money.
And nepotism too. But that’s about money too.
But God authored it all, so who are we to protest?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ okrapod:
Hi OKRAPOD,
I like this concept from Thomas Aquinas: “Evil is a privation, or the absence of some good which belongs properly to the nature of the creature. There is therefore no “summum malum”, or positive source of evil, corresponding to the “summum bonum”, which is God”
There is a history in the Church of Manichean dualism with the evil ‘God of Wrath’ in the discarded OT, and the new good God, Christ, in the NT. The Manicheans could not resolve the contrast, rationally so they (surprise, surprise) made up their own theology and doctrines. The Church had to resolve this heresy and did so over several centuries of battles, deciding that Manichean dualism has no rational basis.
Isaiah’s reference (Isaiah 45) is handled by pointing out that God sees choice as ‘good’ and that if freedom of choice is mis-used, it results in evil. But God does not make us robotic performers, but has given us souls and choice as a part of our being made in His image. If we do choose to abuse our freedom, as the fallen angels did, we sin and commit evil. God permits evil to happen, but He is not it’s Author.
The complexity of the philosophical and theological explorations makes it difficult to understand what is not in our power yet to fathom,
but the Church feels that God is all good, and that He cannot contradict His own nature. Hope this helps the discussion a bit.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I was there at FBCRM every step of the way during those dark times preceding the split. I can tell you that it was not the remaining members, of whom I am one, who lied and mistreated people, but the leadership who left. I was one of those who was on the receiving end of a lesser attack, but know others who were viciously attacked. FBCRM is being blessed now with unity of mission, and joy in worship and fellowship that we have not experienced in a very long time. We may not have an interim pastor yet, but we keep the doors open, the pulpit filled, the committees working, and the programs running. We are happy in our new situation because we are finally free to simply worship the Lord in love and joy. I am not afraid of the future for us, and from the moment the leadership left, I have never doubted we would survive, and I am not alone in that feeling.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ron Oommen:
Oops, couple of typos in there. Sorry.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
That's an easy one. They do not explain anything because everyone who disagrees with them automatically is unworthy of their time and effort. Been there, done that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
I agree with the mystery view. What I ask myself when I ask myself The Question of Evil is, “Why do you expect to understand the ways of…God??? Are you God???” After which I give myself some ice cream to make myself feel better about being so arrogant. Seriously, anyone who has grappled with God over difficult issues is going to limp.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I hope you make a Sacred Cow Sundae, like you suggested once before to me!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
I recognized the intent but the first thing that popped into my head was those who only attend church on Easter.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Catherine:
So very sorry you had to go through that, and thank you for the encouraging report of how the remaining church is healing. Maybe y’all could go all Bent Tree Bible and test Anonymous’ assertion that it would be OK for an autonomous church in the SBC to have female leadership. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Catherine:
I’m sorry for the horrible way that dear saints like you were treated by such *leaders*.
I’m glad that sweet souls are left to worship together without drama and that you all
have peace and joy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m at FBCRM, and pray our deacons won’t make the same mistake again! They left quickly because they realized we had dug our heels in and would not allow the power grab they wanted. It was a huge relief when they left.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Thank you! So far so good! We feel very blessed right now, and eager to see who God sends to lead us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bill M wrote:
That was one of my better typos. I obviously meant “Christmas” Orthodox. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It should be known that the new church was in motion long before the covenant study and the confidence vote. It was conceived as soon the church voted down elder led governance. They were shams to give them time, and use our resources. None of it was to further the church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Catherine wrote:
They obviously wanted all control. Where is an “elder led” church governance even “biblical” as they say? They always act like they want the church to be elder led because it is “biblical.” Hogwash is what I say.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Catherine:
“We may not have an interim pastor yet, but we keep the doors open, the pulpit filled, the committees working, and the programs running. We are happy in our new situation because we are finally free to simply worship the Lord in love and joy.”
++++++++++++++++
good for you! in all sincerity. what a positive, encouraging comment.
and i am really wondering… what’s the interim pastor / pastor for??
look at you! you’re doing it! faith in action. if ‘pastor’ is a function, a verb, it’s happening at your church, no man-at-the-top-with-a-title and brass nameplate on office door required.
giftings are being being utilized, instead of being snuffed. you are setting the example for all. you’re the church. why do you need a man with a title who demands a hefty salary?
think of what you could do with the $. how you could impact your community & beyond on a practical level.
i am very proud of you.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
Better yet, come right out and ask the SBC. So far they have disfellowshiped the churches with godly women pastors, including Baptist churches that refused to get rid of their excellent women pastors.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
elastigirl wrote:
Yes, Catherine’s church is doing an awesome job without a pastor.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ron Oommen wrote:
So that often used phrase when someone does something naughty, “The Devil made me do it!” , should really be “God made me do it!”, according to these people?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
This is in any Biblical greek textbook written in the last 15 years, but a quick Google search will also answer your questions. I suppose it would be cliche to refer you to BDAG.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy2 wrote:
John MacArthur said, “God killed Jesus.” I’m not kidding.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Linda wrote:
I’ve encountered this sort of doing the soft shoe and squirming when talking to Calvinists on a Facebook. I’ll quote Calvin from his Institutes, or explain the implications of their doctrine – very clearly laid out mind you – and they will play some kind of hide ‘n’ seek game. They would rather not use the term Calvinist, but Christian. Or, they don’t agree with everything Calvin said. Or some other such thing. It’s a squirming tactic. I recently posted something from the Babylon Bee at the Calvinist Fb site, that was titled “Local Calvinist’s Sense of Superiority Visible From Space.” One of the folks commenting took offense at the article, to which I responded: “Are you aware that it is Calvinists who post at the Babylon Bee? I think those within your camp are quite aware of the problem of superiority.” The fella responded: “No, I wasn’t aware. My camp? I didn’t know I had one.” To which I replied: “You are a Calvinist, correct?” To which he replied: “I am a Christian who most certainly and unapologetically holds firmly to the doctrines of Grace which the Bible teaches. It has a nickname as I suppose, yes..Calvinist.” I’ve had to pin Calvinists down in conversations more than once to admit that they are Calvinists. It’s a strange phenomenon. I don’t quite get it. Look, if you are so darned proud of being a Calvinist, then WHY NOT ADMIT IT? Why not boldly proclaim in all situations that this is your identity? It seems they are covert about their identity when they want to hide their motives. Such as taking over a church. Or perhaps convincing someone against their will of Calvinist tenets, without telling the person that you’re preaching Calvinism. Come to think of it, I recall hearing Calvinist minister on a program once say that he doesn’t generally come out and tell people that he is a Calvinist because he knows the negative reaction he’ll get. Then he went on to say his approach was to teach people the Scriptures (which was really Calvinist tenets) but not mention that its Calvinist teaching. Oh, the sleight of hand and duplicitous methods to bring people to Calvinism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
John Piper implies the same thing – that the Father killed the Son: “Just as Abraham lifted the knife over the chest of his son Isaac, but then spared his son because there was a ram in the thicket, so God the Father lifted the knife over the chest of his own Son, Jesus — but did not spare him, because he was the ram; he was the substitute.” http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/who-killed-jesus
Jesus weighs in on this: “I lay down my life, and I lay it down to take it up again! No one is taking it from me, but I lay it down of my own FREE WILL. I have the power to lay it down and I have the power to take it up again” (John 10:17-18).
The Calvinists don’t like that “free will” part, so sovereign God killed Jesus.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I can assure you there is nothing hidden about his beliefs. He was interim there for a year before they "called" him as pastor. So if they couldn't hear what he was saying from the pulpit for a year I guess they weren't listening? @ Lavender:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I do understand your hesitance but just to clarify, they did not vote down elder led church- they just voted by a margin where the pastors leadership decided it wouldn’t be helpful to keep pressing it at the time (since their church by-laws state that a “super-majority” is helpful in these kinds of votes). They did have a majority of congregants who wanted Elder headship, just not a super majority (I think 75%?) so they (wisely I think) chose to not press the issue. I understand that you’re troubled by Elder led churches and that “movement” in the SBC but pretty much everyone on here is commenting with a bias and little to no facts. And with a lot of hatred which I think is the opposite of the point only all of this. @ Deb:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Those were not his plans. He had no plans to “plant” in the area. It’s not a big area and there are several healthy churches that do not make the need great. I think leadership realized they had a significant portion of the congregation that would not budge, come hell or high water, and they decided these people didn’t want the same things they wanted for the community and city. But Dennis did not have plans to plant a small church in RM (why would he when he had a great job at southeastern and already lived in the wake forest area?). He came to serve and love the people of this church I honestly believe, i think he may have tried to implement change too quickly and there are many old families at FBCRM that care about tradition before many other things.@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
That is a problematic concept and phrase if Sola Scriptura means anything. The Bible talks about “elders” but does not associate that with “headship” AFAIK.
I do not hate the men, but I do hate what they are doing and the way they are hurting real people and will continue to hurt people in the future because…WHY? If the by-laws of the church require a super-majority, then that is what governs the church until said by-laws are changed.
The deacons who wanted to be elders did not get their way and so they think it is morally and spiritually acceptable to plunder their own church body so that they get their way? How monumentally juvenile can overripe boys get? The humble and spiritually appropriate way to react to a congregation that was acting according to its rules of self-governance (which is premised on the leading of the Holy Spirit) would have been to lead a prayer of thanksgiving for the Lord’s direction. Or, alternatively, they could have humbly accepted the vote and gone on with their ministry work.
However, what they believe is revealed by what they actually did. Their goal was to takeover a church, and the way we have confidence in that conclusion is because that is exactly what they did by other means when the vote did not go their way. There is no way to sugarcoat what these “men” did. There is not enough leadership lacquer to make them leaders, either.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I can tell you have been hurt by this and trust me I am so sad for you. I think this whole this is horrible. I actually do know what has gone on and do know facts but I won’t tell you exactly how. I know that there have been many injustices and wrongs on both sides and I hate that there have even been sides. I hope you will go forth in love and not bitterness. @ elastigirl:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth, with all due respect, unless you have been a member of FBCRM, you do not know what actually happened. I’m guessing you are friends with this man and are taking his word.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
Let me get this straight…
You began your initial comment as follows:
How can you assure us of anything if you weren’t there at FBC RM?
Do you have relatives and/or friends at Darville’s current church?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
But it doesn’t make sense. How do Piper and McArthur try to sell that one to Southern Baptists? I am almost positive that Southern Baptists know that Jesus IS God. And Jesus Christ, God in the second Person of the Holy Trinity, was crucified as a PERSON and a Person died on the Cross. They didn’t crucify just His human nature, they crucified HIM, whole and entire, fully God and fully Man.
I just don’t get it. ?????
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’d just love to know how you know their heart motives to “take over a church” I guess, since a couple of these men worked for 15+ years at or below the poverty line as pastors at FBCRM. Doesn’t seem very cut throat or conniving to me. But I don’t think we will agree on it which is fine! I just see so much speculation on their motives from your end. You have already mentioned being disillusioned by church leadership so that’s ok if it’s where that’s coming from. @ Gram3:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You said in your article that he was interim there for over a year? @ Deb:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
Evidently not. I think that “planting” the church with the people who “would not budge” was his fallback position. Why did he and the deacons instruct the ones who “would not budge” that they were tearing the church apart that *they* should pursue unity? I am quite certain that any pewpeon who created that much chaos in the church would not have been granted nearly the grace that you are granting to these leaders. Said pewpeon would be decried as divisive, argumentative, contentious, contumacious, and hell-bent.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Christiane:
You know, it looks like Piper and McArthur have problems with the Deity of Christ. I thought ESS was messing with the Trinity. This is worse. (and yes I do know that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were NOT crucified on the Cross).
With all the Scriptures that confirm that Our Lord laid His life down willingly, I could never support the teachings of these two men. The Deity of Christ is a core orthodox Christian teaching.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nope! Definitely not friends 🙂 but thanks @ Catherine:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
I'm sorry. What was your point?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth, it’s simply not wise to continue to tell someone who experienced the ugliness first hand that it didn’t happen, when you are not in either church. You have your beliefs, but I have facts about what actually transpired. Where do the ideas you have originate from?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
That is called learning by experience. I hope you are not playing the “you’ve been hurt” card in order to diminish the points made on this thread.
To answer your question, I will quote myself: “Their goal was to takeover a church, and the way we have confidence in that conclusion is because that is exactly what they did by other means when the vote did not go their way.”
Re-reading that I see that it was awkwardly worded, and I should have said “the reason we can have confidence in that conclusion.”
The trick is to look at what people do and not what they say. And even then it is best to observe them over a period of time for consistency.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just that you yourself said he preached there for over a year. Why would they call him if the content of his sermons was something they were offended by or didn’t want? The point being they didn’t go into this blindly like you seemed to be suggesting (that his motives or ideologies would have been hidden to the congregation) @ Deb:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
What?
Heart motive?
Not trying to discern their hearts.
Their actions speak loud and clear as to their sneaky, underhanded, divisive actions. Whatever was going on in their hearts, their actions were wrong. Don’t care what their motives were. The end doesn’t justify the means. Their means were wrong on so many levels.
Their actions are being judged. Not their motives. Their actions, or their fruit is being judges. We shall know them by their fruit. And their fruit is rotten.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You are correct, and trying to push people out at our church was attempted in different ways, but was unsuccessful. I follow no man before Christ. I was told by my family to leave, but God never told me. I stayed and fought for what was right.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Thanks for your wisdom! Certainly not implying that you don’t have your own experience. I actually do have facts not just beliefs, and have many friends at both churches. But again, not trying to diminish your hurt and heartache bc I think any time a church is torn apart it is an absolute tragedy and I hope the best for you and your church. Like I mentioned in my original comment, I have an unfortunate lot of experience with this kind of sadness and wouldn’t wish it on a single soul, that’s where I’m coming from. Just hope you can see that to make someone into a monster and stay angry doesn’t hurt the other person it only eats away at you (in my experience). @ Catherine:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I am not hurt at this point. I am, along with the rest at the church are at peace with our situation. I am also not in rebellion against all church leadership, just that which attempts to control our lives in and out of church. Christ is a better gentleman than that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
Sorry, not buying that argument. I have no doubt that Darville was doing quite the selling job while serving as interim pastor.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Through “Eternal Subordination of the Son” theology.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Correct. His language and focus changed gradually over time. Believe me, I was one of the 95% who voted for him to be our pastor. Then we began to lose members. At some point later programs disappeared with no discussion or knowledge by the membership. We became like the frog in boiling water, though fortunately we woke up in time.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I love how Elizabeth, and those whose eyes have scales, believe their “facts” are indeed true but our “facts” are hurtful lies. I don’t know how ANYONE on the outside looking in could say that going through with a vote of confidence on the whole staff when they had already decided to leave is right. Then, for ALL of them to resign on the spot…from the pulpit…. in such DRAMATIC fashion…..each taking their turn to say how much they love the church but that they were resigning……100% designed to divide.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
okrapod wrote:
Try reading some Rabbinic literature on this topic. Jewish lore will often times offer up a different viewpoint than what’s generally accepted in Western theology.
Or as another alternative, read Greg Boyd’s take on whether or not God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Both the Jewish view and Boyd’s agree, God did no such thing, Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
But Christ didn’t ‘lay aside’ His Divinity when He was incarnated. I realize that ESS is above all an attack on Christ AND on the Holy Trinity, but do Piper and MacArthur teach that Jesus is not fully God, as well as fully Man? I’m not getting their teaching on the Incarnated Jesus Christ. ?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
You may find the page I linked to in this post on a past thread helpful:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/06/10/the-battle-for-the-eternal-subordination-of-women-disguised-as-a-disagreement-on-the-functional-roles-of-the-trinity/comment-page-2/#comment-260389
The link is to a page at Christianity Today and provides a summary of some of the positions.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Theirs is a sick and twisted god.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
Not true from what I am reading. Most people aren’t even commenting about article subject.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Catherine wrote:
Praise God! So many times it's the Neo-Cal pastor who stays while the long-time members (who built the church) leave. This is so wrong!!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Catherine wrote:
Sounds to me like you all are doing just fine without a pastor. Do you really need a professional pastor?
Sorry for the left field question!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Yes
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
pa·tron·ize
ˈpātrəˌnīz,ˈpatrəˌnīz/
verb
gerund or present participle: patronizing
1. treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
elastigirl wrote:
I asked a similar question further down without realising you’d already asked it.
Second this!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Good point!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
“A false dilemma (also known as a false dichotomy) is a logical fallacy which involves presenting two opposing views, options or outcomes in such a way that they seem to be the only possibilities: that is, if one is true, the other must be false, or, more typically, if you do not accept one then the other must be accepted. The reality in most cases is that there are many in-between or other alternative options, not just two mutually exclusive ones.”
[Rational Wiki]
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ken F wrote:
You are correct. I wanted to submit a comment once regarding an article they had posted and could not find a contact link anywhere on the Desiring God website.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
“I can tell you have been hurt by this and trust me I am so sad for you. I think this whole this is horrible. I actually do know what has gone on and do know facts but I won’t tell you exactly how. I know that there have been many injustices and wrongs on both sides and I hate that there have even been sides. I hope you will go forth in love and not bitterness.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
you presume much. i haven’t been hurt by this — i couldn’t be more far removed from any of this (thousands of miles away geographically, no SBC affiliation, etc.) i have no bitterness against anyone or anything.
what i do have is objective observation here. you claim to be the expert on what happened without having had any direct experience. your ‘facts’ have come to you through the biased filters of others. you do not even acknowledge that there are other perspectives beyond the one you have received second-hand. you go so far as to call the people with direct experience liars.
i simply find your comments unfair, patronizing, & covered with sugar syrup.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
Elizabeth, We’re a priesthood of believers. The current swing to Authoritarianism is destructive, Membership Covenants, etc.
There’s something to be said for congregational votes and not having a concentration of power. What they’ve really brought back is the heavy-Shepherding Movement from the 1970’s, and its abuses.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
If people in leadership lied, or others did, then they need to make amends. They sinned and did damage and they need to go clean it up.
If they wanted to leave in peace, God called them to start a new church, they could have done so in a loving manner.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
I went to a church that was co-opted by a new pastor who held different beliefs than the church had historically held. I forget exactly how long it was now, but it seems like he taught for a few years before his plans for change came out in the open. In the beginning his messages were actually filled with grace- the church was growing and people were blossoming and serving happily together- then, at a certain point, boom- goodbye grace, hello coercion. Suddenly we’d been doing and believing things all wrong and we had to change.
Elizabeth wrote:
I remember when it was considered godly to offer oneself to God for his service, allowing God to define where one would be sent and seeking to learn how to minister to those He sent one to. Nowadays it seems more popular to define to God what one is available for, which people one is willing to serve, and defining exactly what that service will entail.
All I can say is, people do what they do for many reasons; no one else can guess why someone would or would not make a certain choice.
I’m not clear on whether you are saying you honestly believe he came to serve and love the people of the church, or whether you’re saying you honestly believe he tried to implement change too quickly.
You do admit he came with the expectation of changing the church and his mistake was to try to do it too quickly, though? And I ask, is it honest, is it sincere, to come to a church that has not asked to be changed, with a plan to change it?
Is it inherently wrong to be an “old family”?
How do you define tradition?
Can a person serve others while disrespecting their traditions?
Can you define the “many other things” these people care less about than tradition?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
Check out this post on the Spiritual Sounding Board https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/01/03/the-christian-patriarchy-movements-dark-secret-of-wife-spanking/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lavender wrote:
I wish I had a good answer for you. The faithful were forced out of the church in our case. People handled it in different ways but I’m sure we all experienced a loss of trust to one degree or another. The church imploded due to ongoing issues after we left but I was not involved to know how those who stayed managed. I do know a small core group kept it going and eventually called a new pastor, hopefully with better luck. But we moved out of the area and I have not kept up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Velour:
9Marks suggest that it is easier to take over a small church than a large one. See here
https://9marks.org/article/church-reform-when-youre-not-necessarily-the-pastor/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The same article cautions against super-majorities, which Elizabeth refers to as to why the takeover didn’t happen. It’s easy to understand why these people don’t like the super-majorities – it prevents them from getting their own way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
Wrong. The context is ecclesiastical shunnning, not personal or social shunning. It means they cannot be a member of the assembly.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Exactly. Why indeed? The only reason to want elder led is to concentrate power so you can do whatever you want without the congregation agreeing. So I would suspect anyone pushing it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Catherine wrote:
This is the creepiest common theme of these guys. Cancel Sunday school. Cancel potluck. Cancel anything they can’t control.
Creepy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
Have you read Quiet Revolution by Ernest Reisinger. It could be you might not recognize some of the strategies.
Are you saying the interim pastor made it clear from the beginning that the church should be elder ruled and he would make it so once hired?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Velour wrote:
Some have taken the “doctrines of grace” to their logical conclusion and have taught “eternal justification” which is a form of hyper-Calvinism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
Often done a year or two out. One seasonal community sports program ran by a retired member with many volunteers was cancelled. No one really knows how it came about. The man who had run it for about 6 years was not told and ignored when was trying to reserve the gym and get the program promoted for that season.
People inquiring about were told n a whisper the person who had been running it was getting too old.
A great but deceptive way to get people not to push it.
Truth is they despise anything run by the pewsitters they don’t control. Everything has to be top down.
Once you know how they operate you know what to look for and the right questions to ask. But once you do that, you are considered an enemy and will be marginalized.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lowlandseer wrote:
How to steal a church?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ siteseer:
Amen. Amen. Amen. Very well said!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I wonder how many other churches in the North Roanoke Association have been similarly “reformed.” The same process can occur within Associations as well. I have heard of informal networks of like-minded pastors meeting outside of regular Association meetings. It seems like a logical extension of the strategy to “reform” the SBC church by church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
http://www.brnow.org/Opinions/Guest-Columns/July-2012/Is-there-a-Calvinist-agenda-to-reform-traditional
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
SEBTS website posts video represented as “recent” with presumably full knowledge that it was no longer representative of the current situation with the pastor and church in question? I’m beginning to think I may not be able to trust everything I read on the internet.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
Faithful Defender of the Party Line, Comrades.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara wrote:
Also note how Elizabeth phrases everything in thick Christianese Newspeak.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Next thing you know Piper & McArthur will be knocking on your door Witnessing for Jehovah.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
I am reminded of an abusive family singing in unison “We’re One Big Happy Family/As Ozzie & Harriet as We Can Be” with a big side order of “It’s All THEIR Fault! It’s All THEIR Fault!”
Did any of these MenaGAWD ever grow up beyond age three Center of the Universe?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
That is because you have never been Initiated and Illuminated with the Speshul Occult Gnosis understood only by the Inner Ring.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Blue wrote:
Wow! “The majority of these Southern Baptist Calvinist pastors are coming from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (Louisville, Ky.) and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (Wake Forest, N.C.). In North Carolina, small rural churches have been particularly vulnerable to Calvinist graduates from these seminaries because of their close proximity to churches in our state.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
“You put the lime in the coconut, drink them both together…”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
“Is there an issue with pastoral candidates not being truthful to search committees about their beliefs? Apparently it is an issue that Danny Akin, president of Southeastern Seminary, thought was worthy of comment. [In an article published on the Between the Times website] he wrote:
“Act with personal integrity in your ministry when it comes to this issue. Put your theological cards on the table in plain view for all to see, and do not go into a church under a cloak of deception or dishonesty. If you do, you will more than likely split a church, wound the Body of Christ, damage the ministry God has given you, and leave a bad taste in the mouth of everyone. …”
Is there a Calvinist agenda to reform traditional Southern Baptist churches? Absolutely.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Really looking forward to Elizabeth’s reply.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I thought this might be of interest to some of the readers here:
Meticulous Sovereignty Meets Morality
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/06/20/meticulous-sovereignty-meets-morality/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Blue:
Another post topic in the hopper. Thanks! 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ FW Rez:
I'm not sure how many people are reading SEBTS's blog Between the Times anyway. Very little commentary over there…
It was a fluke that I saw that post from last Wednesday because I rarely visit that website.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
siteseer wrote:
BINGO!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
Also, you couldn’t be a more terrible ‘witness’ for your reformed religion than doing it by deceit and cloak of darkness…Assuming you care about those things. Maybe they just write you off as ‘not elect’ if you don’t get in line?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Deb:
You’re welcome!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth said that two of these men “worked 15+ years at FBCRM at the poverty line or below”
Elizabeth, this is not opinion but a fact, the federal government defines the poverty level as an annual income of $23,283 or less for a family of four.
The two pastors who worked at FBCRM made around $74,000 base salary. They made six figures package(benefits: medical,disability,retirement etc)
This does not include all the extra benefits the congregation supported over the years BC WE LOVED these pastors and WE were HAPPY to do it such as, remodeling their home, buying Christmas trees,fixing their air conditioner when it broke, paying for dinners,lunches,breakfasts,buying them a car,paying for diapers,and providing a low interest loan…so please, Know your facts before you paint them as “impoverished”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Blue wrote:
From the link Blue provided:
“Is there a Calvinist agenda to reform traditional Southern Baptist churches? Absolutely.” (Les Puryear)
If you are a Southern Baptist and don’t realize this yet, you are uninformed, misinformed or willingly ignorant.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ DustInTheWind:
Frankly, reading how things transpired (and being well informed concerning the tactics) I am thrilled there was a vote at all. And that people know the outcome.
I know of a situation of a vote to hire a pastor that the super majority was exactly two votes over. Yet many left after the vote. The congregation was told by an interim on day of vote they should not be voting because the Holy Spirit has chosen that person (I kid you not)
So the vote was counted by committee who wanted the guy. And the ballots destroyed right after count.
And yet, those who stayed did not want to look mean by suggesting things could have been more above board. The totalitarian niceness is turning people into Stepfords.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Peter:
I bet the 74,000 + benefits and perks is above the average in that area.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Peter wrote:
Thank you for the information! Elizabeth kind of sounds like one of those ‘you don’t know the whole story’ people who popped up about the TVC debacle. IOW, we do know the story and it is as reported…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
When faced with someone you are inclined to trust, or once trusted, it takes quite a lot to realize you’ve been duped. I can understand why people did not want to be mean. That is generally my natural inclination.
I need good evidence or a really bad feeling about something to switch over into that suspicious camp.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
A man’s actions reveal a man’s heart.
That is not rocket surgery.
Man robs a bank? Greed in his heart.
Man kills random person in the street? Murder in his heart.
Man beats his wife? Violence in his heart.
Man splits a church? Desire to rule in his heart.
“Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Elizabeth:
All the typical strategic words and phrases are used in this comment. “The caring insult”.
Bill M wrote:
Bingo.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
Quoting you:
” So if they couldn’t hear what he was saying from the pulpit for a year I guess they weren’t listening? ”
I believe Deb’s question was how do you know what he was saying from the pulpit, when you had already identified yourself as an outsider who is not affiliated with either church?
Since you weren’t there, how would you know what he was teaching during that year? Are you asserting that he spent the whole year teaching on ‘elder rule’ & Calvinism?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
Some of us need more than one dose of reality. For me and Gramp3 it took several doses of different flavors of “medicine” to get us to see.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I say, I say, I say son! 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You nailed it. Were you also there then?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Ken F:
No idea.
However, we are not Southerners and we see this happening at churches – with folks who do not accept climate change, think Obama is not American, public school is evil, women require male supervision, etc.
Perhaps the place to look is where there is a need for thoughtful and intentional people to look beyond rhetoric at facts regarding science, education, media, church, and leadership.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
And because deception is the currency there is never good evidence. In fact they often point that out.
With deception it takes lots of time, focusing on patterns of behavior and words and actions that don’t match. (Akin quote above perfect example!)
By that time, too late. That is why this worked so long. What cheers me is that so many more people are waking up to the deception.
The big cheeses are now moving on to social issues for pushing for unity.
How can one be unified with those who are deceptive? There is no trust.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
and
Perhaps you just misspoke (when you stated that you do not attend either church), but these 2 statements are mutually exclusive.
Did you mean to say that you are not a member of either church but that you have attended them?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Indeed. This is why it’s so good that this blog focuses on the patterns.
Things like ‘programs disappearing’ I have always thought were a bad sign of church health, but I would not have seen that they might be a church takeover sign as well!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
DustInTheWind wrote:
There are six SBC seminaries:
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary(SBTS) in Louisville, Kentucky;
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary(SWBTS) in Fort Worth, Texas;
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary(NOBTS) in New Orleans, Louisiana;
Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary(GGBTS) in Mill Valley, California;
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary(SEBTS) in Wake Forest, NC; and
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary(MWBTS)in Kansas City, Missouri
Southern & Southeastern are particular hot-beds for New Calvinism. Southern has the honor of being known as Ground-Zero for New Calvinism and home of the infamous New Calvinist icon Al Mohler. Midwestern also draws students with a reformed leaning (or they get it while there). While Southwestern has stood firmly in the past against Calvinism due to Paige Patterson’s past anti-Calvinist influence, it appears to have moderated on the issue. Bottom-line, SBC seminaries are cranking out lots of YRR heading eventually toward traditional SBC pulpits – usually after short tours of duty in SBC’s church planting program. Much has been said in upstream comments about how they employ stealth and deception to do their part in the new reformation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
During that time “unity” meant doing things the way of the staff instead of a coming together in love. Some people are better at dicerning, and I was not one initially. It took some “hard knocks” to make me see what was going on. Most really want to see to good in people, especially when they are Christians.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
Thanks for sharing. This is very important information!
FYI – Golden Gate Seminary is now "Gateway Seminary". They passed a resolution in St. Louis about the name change. The seminary is moving to Los Angeles. Thought you'd like to know.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The difference between Calvinism and the 1963 Baptist Faith & Message teachings (which appear more ‘traditional’) are so very different. When did Baptist seminaries like the one in Kentucky and the one in North Carolina start emphasizing Calvinism to their students?
Was it after the ‘resurgence’ and the institution of the BF&M 2K ?
And the strong patriarchal strain in neo-Cal followers …. has Calvinism always treated women so poorly? Did the SBC actually believe they were returning to The Good Way when they embraced the ‘submissive wife’ thing in 2000 BF&M???
(I did read Siteseer’s link on Sproul Jr. which was so shocking.) https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/01/03/the-christian-patriarchy-movements-dark-secret-of-wife-spanking/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
brad/futuristguy wrote:
^This.
Rather than teaching about the sanctification of the Spirit, and that our lives should exhibit the fruit of this process – instead, as you say, they set up their edicts, their programs, their ideas to accomplish your sanctification.
The Spirit’s work is replaced by man’s work, and the Spirit’s voice is shouted down by man’s voice.
In fact, one of the primary, subterranean goals of authoritarian rulers is to completely undermine your ability to actually hear, much less obey, the still small voice of God.
They instill fear in you as a believer, fear that you cannot trust God in relationship to you *without* their assistance.
They don’t put it that way, of course, but that is exactly what they believe and act upon.
Of course, they place the focus on *you* rather than God. You need *them* in your relationship with God, otherwise you’re going to mess up.
But, I’m not the strong one in my relationship with God. HE is. And if I ask Him for a fish – he isn’t going to give me a snake. If I ask for bread, He is not going to give me a stone.
And He has assured me, that He Who has begun a good work in me will complete it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
Before we started blogging, I was involved with a church re-plant, and I had absolutely NO IDEA about any of this stuff. It was a small Southern Baptist church, and we voted to disband the church in order to start a new 'healthier' work. I was probably the most enthusiastic supporter of this change. What that meant was we no longer had deacons. Programs were then eliminated, and I still didn’t ‘get it’.
Then when we were ready to re-launch the church, the pastor and his seminary buddy were going to be the only two elders. As the congregation grew, they would hand pick additional elders. It was around this time that the light bulb came on, and we never joined the church re-plant.
Been there, done that… so I hope no one feels bad about not recognizing the WARNING signs. We Christians can be way too trusting of our leaders.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL, very well said!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
And you know this as fact how?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
YES!
Thanks, DAISY … the ‘God of Wrath’ thing when taken to the extreme of seeing God as the author of evil doesn’t mesh with THE BEST REVELATION we have of ‘Who God Is’ as shown to us by Jesus Christ.
I think the literal fundamentalism that doesn’t know about the Judaic way of describing ‘the Ban’ in the OT is at fault. OT verses were taken literally that should never have been seen that way, and the myth of the extreme fundamentalist ‘God of Wrath’ took form and contributed to the Christian heresy that attacks:
1. Who GOD is.
2. Who Christ is.
3. The orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
Your quote really helps here, DAISY. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BL:
Of course planting a church wasn't his original plan. He was going to take over the existing church.
But things don't always go according to plan…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is so sad. So destructive, and so unnecessary.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL, sadly she is not speaking from experience at FBCRM of any kind. Perhaps taking a third party’s word, or trying to play “Devils advocate”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Anonymous:
Never forget that this pastor has two degrees from Southeastern and was on staff there for over a decade before taking this position at FBCRM. This reflects very poorly on SEBTS.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
And you know that people are responding with ‘a lot of hatred’ how?
Since I am reading the same thread that you are, and have not seen ‘a lot of hatred’ displayed, would you be kind enough to copy and paste several of the sentences that exhibit ‘a lot of hatred’?
Thanks!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
Would you say that Jesus made the Pharisees into monsters?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
In the community some have told us that “taking over” is not off the table. There has been some hope that we would fail financially, giving others the opportunity to get our building.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Good for you that you did!
It seems like an effort to get rid of congregational votes seems to be a wakeup call for people…and how smart of this church above to have put a super majority into the bylaws! The other stuff can just be confusing unless you know it’s a red flag.
And a Baptist church without deacons on the membership votes just seems like not a Baptist church to me. Might as well get rid of baptism too. So strange. [sidenote: I am fascinated by the fact that there is a named female deacon in the bible and yet they were excluded so long. Is this why the focus on ‘elders’ instead of deacons by the super comp neo-cal folks? Even though I am increasingly convinced that the ‘older woman’ were meant to be elders in an official church capacity as well. So most of their anti-female leaders arguments are based on a couple of teensy passages and ignore all the other stuff.]
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Since church polity appears to be a primary issue in the divide of FBC-RM, I’ve become curious as to what is meant by “Elder-led Congregationalism”. I’m not sure if this is the form that was being proposed at FBC-RM, but curious just the same.
The first article I found was from the Between the Times. While it appeared to be attempting to discuss it, the post never connects the dots between the congregation and the elders. http://betweenthetimes.com/index.php/2013/01/23/on-plural-elder-led-congregationalism/
The next article was by Jonathan Leeman on the 9 Marks site. It contained this statement: “If a member’s life becomes compromised, the congregation should VETO (metaphorically speaking) that person’s profession of faith through excommunication.” This is too bizarre for me to parse. https://9marks.org/article/clarifying-congregationalism/
Does anyone know a good working definition?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The Elder focus gets rid of ALL female voice within the church.
I don’t think that can be overstated when talking about motivations.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Catherine wrote:
This is so gross.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Hi DEB,
sounds like you got a jolt of discernment from the Holy Spirit to jump-start your conscience and allow it to take its proper place of ‘competency’ in your decision-making. The idea of following the prompting of the Holy Spirit and obeying one’s God-given conscience are sancrosanct in orthodox Christianity. No ‘leader’, or minister, or priest or authority can overrule a person’s conscience, even in my Catholic faith. I think Southern Baptists had a good thing in their idea of ‘soul competency’. I don’t think the neo-Cals want folks to think for themselves, ask questions, or come to their own decisions about matters of faith, morals, and ethics. The neo-Cal thing seems very dark in that way, yes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Christiane wrote:
I believe I can speak to this regarding SEBTS. Paige Patterson became seminary president at Southeastern after the Conservative Resurgence. He left in 2003 and went to Southwestern, and Danny Akin (who was a Dean at Southern Seminary and a close friend of Al Mohler) became SEBTS president in 2004.
I attended chapel services there regularly in 2006-mid 2008 because I enjoyed hearing the speakers. When Danny Akin preached through the book of Jude, I went to hear every single message that academic year. Didn't miss one! I sat in the back and took notes because I was hungry to learn. In addition, I went to several of Akin’s presidential forums. He was asked questions about election vs. free will, and his emphatic response was:
“It’s a mystery.”
I stopped going by the fall of 2008 (when I started doing extensive internet research on the topics we discuss), and I think things began to change quickly after that. That’s what I believe. Perhaps someone with a closer connection to the seminary can respond.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
roebuck wrote:
He wrote a free book, Ligonier Tales, that was online until he was defrocked and the Ligonier financial scandal hit. He took it down.
Oh my it was creepy. To start, he referred to the wealthy woman who originally financed Ligoneir and took care of his family as a ‘white witch’s.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth,
I wonder from whom you received your information since you attend neither church? Maybe could your info be coming from a sister or 2 who used to attend FBC but now attend CCC? You just seem to have so much info for someone who was not a tithing nor active member.
You say we are wrong. You are actually calling what we are saying BS. Wow, you are a much better Christian than me because I would of said the words bull**** not just the initials…you win. If you ever took a logic class in college the first thing you learn is that everyone has a bias. You, Elizabeth, have a bias. You are pro CCC staff, and I have a bias and it is pro FBC. The reason for my bias is that I have actually received abuse from 3 of the staff. Instead of talking behind their backs I chose to tell them the problems I was having with them. Oh my…..not a wise choice. Almost immediately I was blackballed and called divisive. Divisive was the the hot word back then when they felt threatened from the congregation.
So in the future Elizabeth, don’t tell my church family that we are in the wrong. We have the battle scars to prove we were there and saw ALL that happened. But, the wonderful thing that happened was that FBC saw the mighty hand of our Lord work by removing almost all the staff and clean our church from it’s suppressing spiritual pride. We are still hurting, no lie. We are wounded, no lie. But the Lord’s hand is mighty and He will see us through. We have been told that we must take the high road by some of the members of FBC I just hope this high road doesn’t turn into “The Trail of Tears” along the way.
Dear Deb, thank you for allowing FBC members to vent and heal. We NEEDED this and we appreciate your allowing the use of this blog as a healing tool.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Christiane:
Yes indeed! What I didn't share was the tremendous emotional pain I felt as a result. It was complicated, but I have moved far past that pain. Co-writing this blog has been very therapeutic for me. 🙂
I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe all of this was PROVIDENTIAL…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
It seems that a lot more people in the SBC world are getting multiple degrees from the same institution instead of branching out. Is this a symptom of the institutions becoming more focused on indoctrination than education?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
“When faced with someone you are inclined to trust, or once trusted, it takes quite a lot to realize you’ve been duped. I can understand why people did not want to be mean. That is generally my natural inclination.
I need good evidence or a really bad feeling about something to switch over into that suspicious camp.”
++++++++++
But direct questions and speaking frankly are not being mean.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Max:
Mohler was able to put his young inexperienced protege, Jason Allen, in as president of Midwestern. I suspect Mohler owns/influences many Trustees. I am seeing on SWBTS trustee promoting the YRR strategies.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
elastigirl wrote:
No I don’t think they are, I was simply responding to Lydia’s language.
I’m saying I get that impulse – where you don’t want to go too far in suspecting someone’s motives. Until you are sure.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ elastigirl:
Not because it IS mean, but because it FEELS mean.
Especially if you were raised with your mother saying things like ‘if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all’. Talking to a family member, not everyone got these lectures to the same degree growing up as I did. I really don’t like confrontation, personally. I will set boundaries, though. That is more likely to be leaving than it is to be confrontation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL wrote:
Special Revelation?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL wrote:
Unless the Sons of Calvin and Mohammed are right and He screws you over “Just Because *I* Can”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Watchman on the Wall and fellow FBCRM member, thank you for your comments! Well said. I agree with your assessment of the "high road". I have always believed in not burying the truth, however hurtful it can be. If those who inflicted hurt did not want their actions revealed, then they should not have acted that way in the first place. We cannot move on if we stick our heads in the sand because the truth is painful. And, we don't want others to suffer the same injuries. I feel blessed and hopeful at FBC. It is, once again, a place where we can worship freely without worry of condemnation from men.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, this is another aspect of SBC life that the rank and file don’t have a clue about. Several SBC entities are now led by New Calvinists with direct links to Al Mohler. As you note, prior to becoming MWBTS President, Jason Allen was Executive Assistant to Al Mohler at SBTS. Over at SEBTS, President Danny Akin was formerly Al Mohler’s Dean of Theology at SBTS. Prior to assuming his role as President of SBC’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, Russell Moore was also Dean of Theology at Mohler’s Ground-Zero for New Calvinism. And we can’t forget Kevin Ezell, President of SBC’s North American Mission Board and champion of its church planting program – prior to that position, he was Al Mohler’s pastor!! The Mohler family tree is growing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
I knew nothing about any of this prior to a few months ago when I found this blog (and a few others). It’s fascinating and crazy.
All I knew was that I could not find a Baptist church that seemed to fit and I found the emphasis on male leadership annoying. For a long time, I was done.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
When was the “bitterness” word was used an indicator light went on “We have a match”. I think there must be a manual somewhere they follow. Eagle recently banned the word from his site.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Lea:
“But direct questions and speaking frankly are not being mean.”
—-
“No I don’t think they are, I was simply responding to Lydia’s language.
I’m saying I get that impulse – where you don’t want to go too far in suspecting someone’s motives. Until you are sure.”
++++++++++
i don’t doubt your willingness to go to direct and frank places in conversation. i was mostly commenting to the air… thinking of times past in christian culture where honest appraisal made one out to be “a mean person”, earning you a reputation as being bad and suspect, to be avoided.
ridiculous.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
Dear DEB, ‘Providence’ in the orthodox sense of the word is all about God’s MERCY …. not about ‘control’, never that
I think the neo-Cals have ruined some terms for many, and I guess that’s why you never hear much about the Mercy of God in their lexicon, which is sad.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
FW Rez wrote:
Unfortunately, this is the modus operandi for the SBC, with a only few exceptions. Many (too many IMO) professors have earned two, and sometimes all three, degrees at the same institution where they teach. It is the academic or educational equivalent of in-breeding.
The exceptions referenced above are when a student gets accepted to a British or European university. Usually the academic reputation of the school does not matter; after all, they (the student) must be intelligent seeing that they went to a school in Europe.
For the most part, elite U.S. universities (Ivy League, etc.) are not well represented. This may be due to: 1. the “liberal” nature of the U.S. school, which could result in the applicant from a theologically conservative institution not being accepted; 2. the liberal nature of the U.S. university may discourage an insecure conservative student from applying (which is ironic given the nature of British/European schools), or; 3. the students simply aren’t academic enough to meet the standards of elite U.S. schools.
(Please note, there are some genuinely intelligent and well-educated scholars at SBC seminaries. However, they are in the minority. Usually, the better educated, well-rounded scholars are not used as institutional show-pieces.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
I suspect they are very happy about the outcome. Not about the publicity, though.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
The foundation of New Calvinism is the teaching contained within the ‘Institutes Of The Christian Religon’ a sixteenth century document written by theologian John Calvin, who repackaged Augustinian gnostic ideas and presented them to the uneducated and the ambitious, as ‘Solid Bible Truth’ ™ .
The core of that ‘truth’ presents a theology whereby God is pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds His tender mercies, as He pleases, for the glory of His ‘Soverign Power’ (R) over all of human kind, to pass by and ordain, certain of them, to dishonor and wrath, for their sin to the praise of His glorious justice.
huh?
This is nothing but Augustinian Gnosticism, and certainly not a true depiction of the good news Jesus, and later His apostles presented.
What?
Jesus’ truth is very simple, in that God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Accept no substitutes.
ATB
Sopy
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
They have just about done that with the word “Gospel” for me. They have taken a word that either referenced the first four books of the New Testament (Gospel according to …) or the good news of salvation (after all, ‘gospel’ means ‘good news’). Now it is used to make something more theologically correct than something else.
It is a sad day when a Christian cringes whenever he hears the word “gospel,” even if it is in the correct context. Yet that is what’s happening to me.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ FW Rez:
What you find on the 9Marks site is the model used. There are churches, like the PCA and generic Bible churches (which came out of Presbyterianism) that have elder rule. Practically speaking, there is not much difference in my experience. I suppose Gramp3 and I have been members under every form of polity on the spectrum from elder-ruled to traditional Baptist congregationalism. I am not persuaded that any is free from corruptibility. Though obviously when power is concentrated, that corruption is usually easier.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Sproul, Jr. is Federal Vision, too. He is untouchable due to his last name. From time to time you find his name on YRR sites. They love him because Patriarchy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Watchman on the Wall wrote:
Oh my, so very well said. We had the exact same experience! Keyed out of their little kingdom.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Elizabeth wrote:
So you see a movement in the SBC toward elder led church polity?
Are you one of those who imputes hatred to people who disagree with you? How do you feel yourself capable of judging the heart attitude of people you’ve never met, based on a few comments you’ve read?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
Now that’s pretty creepy…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
Did you see this –
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/06/17/sebts-expert-on-the-calling-of-god-and-the-pastoral-search-process-and-the-rest-of-the-story/comment-page-1/#comment-260552
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
Hi DAISY,
Yes, I saw it and I love that quote. As far as I am concerned, any description of ‘God’ that opposes what we know of God from Christ would be a false ‘god’. Our Lord spoke and acted in the Very Person of God as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
The whole ESS, ‘Wrathful God’, ‘God authors evil’ thing is an outgrowth of heresy, and the Church dealt with these heresies in early years. Some of these heresies are ‘resurging’ in the worst ways, with dreadful applications that bring emotional pain to victims.
That quote was spot on. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lea wrote:
As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I’m sorry that you experienced this Lea in your search for a good church. Things were not always this messed up in SBC ranks. There are 45,000+ SBC churches, so you might still be able to run across one in your area where the preacher talks more about Jesus than Calvin, Piper, etc.; where the pulpit doesn’t lead by control, manipulation, and intimidation; where congregations love the Lord and are at work in the Great Commission to reach ALL people for Jesus with no emphasis on the chosen few; where the Gospel is the right one.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lowlandseer wrote:
Oh my! Thanks for the article link.
While there were several things of interest, the following really caught my attention:
Can you imagine what the response would be from the Calvinistic leadership if someone in their congregation began doing the above, except from an Armenian view?
That member would be called out for being a divisive, disobedient, rebellious to his leaders, devious, usurpating spawn of hell and would be forced to choose between repenting (and shutting up) or leaving (and shutting up).
That they are blind to the fact that they are encouraging their like-minded people to do something to other churches that they would never allow in their own assemblies is boggling.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
FW Rez wrote:
If you’re committed to the reformed movement and want to move up the New Calvinist ladder, it would be best to stay in the network that will get you there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Burwell:
Hi BURWELL,
I tried for a long time to find out how the term ‘gospel’ was defined when I first began exploring my grandmother’s Southern Baptist faith. But I couldn’t get a specific answer …. only many answers, some emphasizing certain things, and some in conflict with other answers.
In my Church when we hear the word ‘Gospel’, we also think of the four holy Gospels that witness to Our Lord. And we understand the beauty and the powerful simplicity of the way St. Paul explained this encapsulation of the Good News, in his words to the Philippians:
” 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to cling to
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lowlandseer wrote:
And another gold quote from the above referenced article:
Did you catch that?
A man who had only been a member of this church for a few months was elected as a deacon.
So, Mr I’ve Been A Member For Less Than a Year, gets elected as a deacon. At which point he tells us:
When he says “all of us knew” he ISN’T talking about ALL the DEACONS, he’s talking about him and his other 3 buds.
My guess is that the other 3 deacons who weren’t in on the scheme who didn’t collude with each other to produce 1 candidate to support, and instead made the mistake of being honest and were supporting multiple candidates, thus splitting their vote.
Leaving Mr. Been Serving for a Few Months as the winner of the Grand Plot to Become Deacon and take over the Church.
.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“Oh my it was creepy. To start, he referred to the wealthy woman who originally financed Ligoneir and took care of his family as a ‘white witch’s.
It really does beggar the mind how otherwise rational 21st century folks can swallow the nonsense these guys come up with.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
How odd.
I learned what the Gospel was as a child in the Southern Baptist Church.
Very specifically. Not with many answers, or changing emphasis or conflict.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Burwell:
Darville earned his undergraduate degree from the College of Southeastern and his M.Div. from SEBTS. He was probably one of the older undergrads at the time.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
I saw the link but haven't had time to read it. I will though… Thanks!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Missy M wrote:
I have not heard of there being two types of shunning before, is there some kind of scriptural basis?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Pastor Darville just re-started his Twitter account. At the top of the posts are re-tweets by Mahaney and 9Marks, as well as a recommendation for “carefully chosen reformed books”. These guys love to promote each other.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
The thing that I noticed the most was the break from ministry and then the return after several years of secular employment – in another area of the country.
I suspect something went on there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Christiane wrote:
I realize that my earlier response contained some snark.
And this is not an attempt to apologize for it, because I do not.
I actually should have said it straightforwardly.
Whether you realize it or not, or whether you are purposely doing so, many of your posts come across as proselytizing for your denomination.
Not Christianity, but Roman Catholicism.
I know that we share many things in common, but there are many things that we do not share.
Since the focus here is something else entirely, something that we do share in common, I would greatly appreciate it, if the ‘my Church’ aspect of your responses could be reigned in a little.
Otherwise, there is likely to be some pushback.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BL:
Greg Gilbert is speshul. He was an intern at Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/past-interns/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL wrote:
Catch this from Greg Gilbert, author of the link provided: “Reform is easier in a small church than in a large one … There are fewer people one has to persuade in order to change the church’s direction.”
Persuade?! Dupe would be a better word. None of this sounds Christlike to me. Small churches beware – the New Calvinists are coming to get you!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL wrote:
My favorite part of that article was this: “I realize I’m in danger here of sounding like I’m calling for some Macchiavelli-style takeover of a church. I don’t want to do that, which is why I posted numbers 2 and 3 of this series before this one.”
HAHAHA. Yes, that will fool them.
Max wrote:
I’ve pretty much given up for now and gone another direction…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Burwell wrote:
See, that makes some monetary sense, if they are teaching while picking up extra degrees, as you probably get a discount, it’s convenient, etc…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BL wrote:
Sounds like another good topic for discussion. Odd that they would be proud of that kind of behavior and recommend it as a strategy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
I can still hear Mohler’s interview of Gilbert after release of Gilbert’s book “What is the Gospel?” At one point, Gilbert exclaims “Oh Dr. Mohler, what a sweet question!” I feel slimy all over again when I think about that exchange between those two very speshul people. While they are trying to redefine their gospel to a reformed grid, faithful servants of God are preaching the real one!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Darlene wrote:
I can offer a great slogan for them, adapted from the Brooke Shields ads for Calvin Klein blue jeans in 1981:
Nothing comes between me and my Calvin.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb wrote:
And the author of the little Gospel book, too. Who knew that political maneuvering in the church is part of the Gospel along with Female Subordination. It’s almost like the Gospel is about taking power over people or something.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Yes. Just like Jesus said – be a servant and don’t lord it over people by sneaking in, taking over churches, putting yourself and your buddies in charge, telling everyone how much authority you have over them, telling women what to sit down and shut up while the men folks handle things…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Max wrote:
Yep. Persuade? Who is he trying to deceive?
In the case he references – THEY DIDN’T PERSUADE ANYONE! What “few”?
How ’bout “none”?
In fact he said:
It WAS unethical.
It WAS also covert.
It WAS also duplicitous.
And then he followed with “BUT” and then attempts to justify the whole takeover-via-deacon-election by appealing to pragmatism.
Pragmatism – a great tool of Stan. 😉
Satan was all about pragmatism when tempting Jesus in the desert.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Friend wrote:
Perhaps there is a secret society component to being a Calvinist that we don’t know about … of course, it wouldn’t be a secret if we knew about it ;^)
Or perhaps some of the new reformers are not real sure what they are doing is right (because it’s not) and they are ashamed of the bully pulpit behavior of their movement, while advancing a theology that most church folks simply don’t want!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Gram3 wrote:
Have you forgotten that Jesus told us how our leaders should rule like the Gentiles and lord it over people? And how our leaders were to emulate the world’s high officials and exercise authority over others? And that our leaders should give themselves titles, like Benefactor, when they rule over the people?
Sheesh, Gram. One might think that you weren’t gospelly enough in your Gospel! 😉
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Lydia wrote:
The word “interim” in this story keeps getting my attention. In many traditions, the interim is barred from being hired as the senior pastor. The interim is there to see the congregation through the loss of the previous pastor, to get folks used to the idea of change, and generally to keep things goi