"We were originally called the Center for Church Reform, but then we noticed pastors getting into trouble with their congregations for referring to an organization that seemed to suggest that they should change. So we decided to go for the simple positive name of 9Marks, which would represent those issues in the local church we were specifically addressing."
1. The idea of 9Marks of a Healthy Church originated in the early 1990s when Mark Dever was advising a church plant in the Boston area. Here is what Mark shared in an interview that appeared Tabletalk magazine on July 1, 2015.
I first thought of the nine marks in a letter I had written to a church plant I had been involved with in the Boston area. I wrote to them in 1991 laying out nine characteristics that marked their church, that were intentional, and that any pastor coming to work with them should understand before he came.
Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. in mid-1994. Prior to his move stateside, Dever had been living in England where he earned his Ph.D. from Cambridge University and where he served on the Faculty of Divinity. (link)
The 9Marks were later explained in an abbreviated format. Some years ago Jared Moore interviewed Bobby Jamieson, who provided the following information about the history of 9Marks. (see screen shot below)
*********************
**********************
It appears Founders Press Publications initially published the booklet. (see screen shot below)
It is also pictured here.
2. Mark Dever's ministry was launched in 1998 and was initially called the Center for Church Reform. This name is still listed on a couple of non-profit websites here and here. While we are not sure exactly when the name change took place, it was still going by "Center for Church Reform" as late as March 2002. Southern Seminary's website features a two-part interview between Matt Schmucker and Bob Kauflin from 2002 (see screen shot below).
You can listen to the interviews here – Part 1 and Part 2. In his introductory remarks, Schmucker identifies the organization as the Center for Church Reform.
No doubt 9Marks was the official name when Crossway published Dever's expanded book Nine Marks of a Healthy Church in 2004. It is interesting to read the preface (where Dever reflects on his 10 years at Capitol Hill Baptist Church), the endorsements (with some notable names) and introduction, which you can access here.
Why did Dever and Schmucker change the name of the ministry? Here is an excerpt from an interview with Mark Dever that appeared last year in Tabletalk magazine:
We were originally called the Center for Church Reform, but then we noticed pastors getting into trouble with their congregations for referring to an organization that seemed to suggest that they should change. So we decided to go for the simple positive name of 9Marks, which would represent those issues in the local church we were specifically addressing. [emphasis mine]
3. According to the Table of Contents of Nine Marks of a Healthy Church (2004 edition), the 9 Marks are as follows: (link)
The 9Marks website lists them as follows:
It is noteworthy that the descriptor 'Biblical' is used a lot less in the above list (as compared to the chapter titles of Dever's book).
Here is Mark Dever explaining why these 9 marks. (Are others besides us having trouble remembering what the 9 marks are?)
4. Here is what 9Marks does, according to the website. (link)
A Southern Seminary article entitled Doing Theology on Capitol Hill included the following explanation regarding what 9Marks does:
5. The seed money for the Center for Church Reform (now 9Marks) allegedly came from a 'generous neighbor' who is/was a non-Christian. In our post 9Marks' Initial Funding Purportedly Came from a 'Non-Christian Neighbor', we share comments on a previous post from someone who purports to know Mark Dever and Matt Schmucker. Another commenter – whom I (Deb) know and trust – corroborated this claim.
We are left wondering whether this 'generous neighbor' ever became a Christian…
The website page How is Nine Marks Funded explains the current funding arrangement.
6. 9Marks has its own bookstore. At this time there are 57 books available for purchase at this link. Here are screen shots of a few of them. With all these available resources, pastors who are attempting to emulate Mark Dever and his lieutenants must be getting church reform down to a science…
7. 9Marks has been hosting an event that coincides with the SBC annual meeting for several years now. Here is information on the gathering next month.
As you can see, two seminary presidents along with the president of the International Missions Board are heavily involved in promoting 9Marks.
8. The 9Marks website includes a list of 9 Marks churches which you can click below. I plugged in the city where I live, along with my zip code, and 13 churches came up. This kind of information could prove very helpful. 🙂
There is a disclaimer on the 9Marks website that states:
A church’s appearance in the Church Search tool should not be viewed as an endorsement by 9Marks.
9. At Together for the Gospel 2016, there was a breakout session called "Don't Be a 9Marxist! Using Church Authority to Help Not Hurt". Here are Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman promoting it prior to the event. In this video, Mark Dever acknowledges:
There are a lot of pastors who I think have very quickly tried to be obedient to what they see in scripture, but they've done it without a lot of wisdom in knowing how to implement things in their local churches, and it's caused a lot of unnecessary pain. They've drawn lines in the wrong places and they're misunderstanding things.
We were really looking forward to watching the Don't Be a 9Marxist! breakout session in the T4G archives. Since the T4G website features videos of all the talks and discussions, we are wondering why the 9Marxist one is not available. Did we somehow miss it???
The 9Marx moniker appears to be deserved, as evidenced by this 9Marks Facebook status update published just last week.
FYI — We are planning a follow-up post soon. It will be creatively be called…
9 More Things You Should Know about 9Marks
STAY TUNED!
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First
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@ George:
You are on the ball! 🙂
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Dee has posted several lovely article here about her former church in Texas, Bent Tree, pastors Pete Briscoe, Joanne Hummel, Pete’s encouraging Dee to teach at the church, and of course Bent Tree’s recently opening up elder positions to women (after much prayer and examining the scriptures by the elders).
I looked at Bent Tree’s website and I must say I was pleasantly surprised by their simple, unadorned Gospel message, their love, their humility, kindness. A night and day difference between the loveless and authoritarian RULES, RULES, RULES, LAW, LAW, LAW that Mark Dever & 9Marxist practice. (They damaged my life and many others at my ex-NeoCal church.)
http://benttree.org/about/distinctives/
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George wrote:
Deb wrote:
No, just happened to get lucky!
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#10 – supported by Founders Ministries: http://founders.org/ministry/
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This is well written and researched. I truly tried to watch the videos but the nine marks folks make me want to vomit up my lunch, sorry to be graphic and I admit it might just be me. When I hear the word biblical I often have the same “feeling”. The application of these ideas especially “church discipline” have not just caused pain or are a little oopsie they have ripped churches and families apart in some cases and have been applied in a retaliatory manner on occasions. Why, can’t one mark be, we are mandated reporters for spouses and children who are abused. I E we side heavily with the victim etc. Maybe a mark that has to do with leadership is responsible to the congregation and is held accountable by the congregation, not some handpicked yes club called elders.
Some mark about the church being a family and we don’t allow gutting family (faith) members or hacking the wounded to death to keep the machine running might be good as well. Personally, I would love to have a mark in the local church where showing grief is not some type of satanically inspired sin if it is committed by one of the non-professional Christians. I really mean the last one, it would have helped me a great deal.
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@ Ken F:
I'll include that endorsement in the follow-up post.
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The “church” has authority?
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In reading the blog over the past few years about this topic, the only mark I agree with is expository preaching. The other marks have been implemented in a way which hurt individuals very deeply. As Christians, we should live out our faith authentically and not be influenced by trends.If churches want a model to pattern their churches by, read the book of Acts.
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‘We were originally called the Center for Church Reform, but then we noticed pastors getting into trouble with their congregations for referring to an organization that seemed to suggest that they should change.”
Even though that was the plan! So they decided not to refer to “Reform” because that might suggest Calvinism and the churches they wanted to change would most likely resist a subtle introduction to reformed theology. It would be better to come in the back door by stealth and deception, rather than be upfront about the real objective (a strategy that numerous YRR picked up on to gain control of non-Calvinist pulpits … anything but a healthy church).
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Johnny Hopkins wrote:
Amen! But don’t read Acts 29 ;^)
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“Biblical Theology” = Reformed Theology, of course
“The Gospel” = Doctrines of Grace, of course
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This is the exact same excuse proferred by the shepherding/discipleship leaders when that movement’s abuses finally exploded into public view.
And let’s get honest here, 9Marks. It’s not as if thousands of pastors have independently “quickly tried to be obedient to what they see in scripture,”.
These thousands of pastors didn’t come across this Scriptural revelation as they spent personal time reading Scripture and seeking God.
No, these are thousands of pastors who have consumed your books, attended your conferences, listened to your teachings, watched your videos and are doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE TAUGHT THEM TO DO.
.
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@ BL:
Amen! There’s a reason ‘Elders’ (as in older and wiser men) are to lead the church.
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Johnny Hopkins wrote:
Welcome to commenting at TWW.
My former church was an authoritarian, abusive 9Marxist church, and I will never step foot in a 9Marks church again. The problem I have with Mark Dever’s claim about expository preaching is that it’s another form of idolatry for him and his fan boys. They are in love with themselves, with the long lost Biblical truths that they alone have uncovered and that other Christians have missed for hundreds of years.
They are in love with their *Biblical* interpretation of the Bible, one that denigrates others. They use the Greek and the Hebrew, and omit the real meanings to deceive people in the pews.
At the end of the day, they’re clanging bells. Devoid of love. Lacking in humility.
They use Mark #1 to make themselves an elite class, better than everybody else. Superior.
We are a priesthood of believers. They are no better than you nor I.
http://www.sermoncentral.com/pastors-preaching-articles/iain-murray-a-caution-for-expository-preaching-769.asp
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@ Johnny Hopkins:
I like expository preaching too, but I don’t think it’s the only acceptable method of preaching.
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Notice the 9Marx marketing niche is pastors. All these guys are making an extra, very good income off other pastors, wannabe pastors and seminary students. It’s ridiculous. But diabolically smart. The gurus are promoted by their professors, pastor or youth pastor. It is very Amway in its approach. It’s all about the inner ring.
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What appears to be missing is the one important Mark that Jesus taught: that his followers would be recognized by their LOVE. The ONE MARK of a healthy church is LOVE. When people come in the door, they will recognize the love that the members have for one another. Acceptance on a statement of faith in Jesus Christ verified by a loving nature. We need more ONE MARK churches. Just delete that unneeded X and we have One Mark.
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Deb wrote:
And if they define expository as meaning slowly going verse by verse through a whole book of the Bible over a period of months/years – then Jesus didn’t follow their Gospelly criteria for preaching/teaching.
From Luke:
I’m thinking Jesus probably skipped a verse or even a book or two…
.
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Exactly… We are called to love as JC loved us.. in a sacramental way… that is a HUGH bar to achieve, but we are told that is how His disciples are to be known.. And, for what is worth, I do not claim that I live the way that I should!
An Attorney wrote:
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Velour wrote:
Ditto to what you said for the Shepherding/Discipleship kafaufle from the 70s/80s as well.
Leaders who are going to help churchianity FINALLY GET IT RIGHT!
There is no difference in the foundational doctrines & practices between this current crop of leaders you experienced and the former crop of leaders I experienced.
.
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@ An Attorney:
Amen.
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Opps… Sacrificial way…
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
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An Attorney wrote:
Preach it!
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There are a lot of pastors who I think have very quickly tried to be obedient to what they see in scripture, but they’ve done it without a lot of wisdom in knowing how to implement things in their local churches, and it’s caused a lot of unnecessary pain. They’ve drawn lines in the wrong places and they’re misunderstanding things.
Huh! How interesting that if you are obedient to what you see in the scriptures, it can cause a lot of pain! Who knew? I wonder why the Bible doesn’t give this warning?
The scripture ought to reflect this danger so people don’t go around causing pain! Maybe something along these lines:
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. But, whoa, brother! Hold up there! Take your time and apply these things SLOW! Be careful you don’t misunderstand some “things” or you could cause pain!
LOL
These so-called marks of a healthy church have nothing to do with the the healthy churches I’ve been to. The marks of those churches were love for Jesus Christ and others, hunger for his word, and the fruits of the Spirit. And the the pastors of those churches were the first to demonstrate these traits.
It seems like these guys have no clue what makes a church healthy, or their definition of “health” is way different than mine. I think their definition of “wisdom” is a lot different than mine, too. Maybe like the “wisdom” James taught us about-
But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
There is nothing in the 9 marks about Jesus Christ and nothing about love. What a joke. These guys have no clue and the sad thing is, so many pastors apparently have no clue, either, if they are falling for this.
I have never been so thankful for the separation of church and state as I’ve been since hearing about 9Marx.
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@ siteseer:
Spot on.
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Lydia wrote:
Jesus would be flipping over their tables and unplugging their internet stores.
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Wisdom? Maybe. I’m think the lack of wisdom is only a symptom. The disease more like a lack of love. But then the lack of love may be only a symptom of the corrupt system that attracts narcissists who crave power and adulation and are incapable of love.
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One could only wish that they would package and produce “9 Marks of a Healthy Leader”.
I’m thinking that a few conferences addressing the sins and abuses of the ‘authority’ of churchianity leaders – that might be more useful.
And having a break-out session for leaders to guide them in regards to the need for congregationally elected oversight committees (not consisting of 30-year old elders, the leader’s handpicked puppets, or his father / sons-in-law) – who would work with the pewishioners in regards to issues and abuses between pewishioners & leaders.
Yeah, I’m thinking that one isn’t going to have a lot of paying attendees…
But, the ability for churchianity to discipline its *leaders* is needed much more than another teaching on disciplining the pewishioners.
I *know* that the leaders in the shepherding/discipleship movement had a moment in time when they could have repented, could have addressed the abuses & errors.
But, they were too big and too important to hear the warnings from the people they viewed as below them and under their authority.
It has become abundantly clear to me, that those who teach and focus upon disciplining the pewishioners, are the very men who cannot accept correction from ANYONE.
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St Paul’s 9 ‘marks’ of a healthy church, as written to the Galatian church in the 1st century:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Gentleness
8. Faithfulness
9. Self-control
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I was over on Eagle’s website and he’s also written about 9Marks.
And Sopy posted a video of some CA pastors refuting Calvinism. (I haven’t finished watching the whole thing. That NeoCalvinism that I experience…well it’s rabid.)
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/9-marks-what-is-it-how-mark-dever-undermined-it-and-made-it-worthless/
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Estelle wrote:
Right!! Why the need to write their own 9Marks? Scripture is not enough for the 9Marks guys.
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BL wrote:
Exactly. But these same men lay heavy burdens on Christians.
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Velour wrote:
Matthew 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. NASB
Luke 11:46 But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. NASB
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I had to snort at the one and only comment left under 9Marks FB status linked above: https://www.facebook.com/9Marks/posts/10154075815111203?comment_id=10154078142231203&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D
What in the world?
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An Attorney wrote:
“Francis Schaeffer exhorted, ‘Love–and the unity it attests to–is the mark Christ gave Christians to wear before the world. Only with this mark may the world know that Christians are indeed Christians and that Jesus was sent by the Father.’ More than ever, the church needs to respond compassionately to a needy world. More than ever, we need to show the Mark.
That was “back-in-the-day” …
http://jimbomkamp.com/1john/TRUECHRS.htm: Marks of a true Christian.
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so, this “to pastors who just discovered that church discipline is in the bible, Mark Dever has some advice: Don’t practice it… at least not yet”….
this is so silly. this is what it reminds me of:
a hot new product out there made by X Company that everyone wants because they think it’s necessary. it’s been marketed that way. so people buy it,
but when they get it home and start using it they discover it has problems. so X Company starts manufacturing an additional product which will make the first product work better. and people buy it, too. because it’s all so necessary.
these people are now doubly dependent on X Company (& two-times poorer) to meet this terribly important need they suddenly have. and since X Company created the need in the first place, only X Company can meet it.
I’ve observed this happening with many thing — electronics, toys, technology, appliances…. the Evangelical Industrial Complex…
it’s annoying, rotten, and exploiting the customer when manufacturers do this. it’s especially heinous when 9 Marks & the Evangelical Industrial Complex do this — they invoke the words ‘biblical’ and ‘Gospel’ (which now seems to be capitalized just like “God”), and of course the concept of God in the marketing of their ideas. oh, the power & control they wield in doing so.
talk about exploitation.
(and about “Gospel” being capitalized now… they done gone and deified it, I think)
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@ JYJames:
“Love–and the unity it attests to–is the mark Christ gave Christians to wear before the world.”
++++++++++
don’t know enough about Francis Schaeffer to know whether I like him or not, but what struck me is that love doesn’t require agreement to doctrinal or faux-biblical platforms (whether primary, secondary, tertiary…).
love is really not that hard. I mean, it is if you analyze it to death, turning it into a bunch of non-intuitive rules (& job descriptions…!). by then it’s some over-processed lump of radio-active velveeta cheese. how nice 😐
the Christian marketplace of ideas (& the products they generate) is all so divisive. everyone’s so nervous and scared about getting it right & not getting it right and censoring those ‘who got it wrong’.
I think it’s about viability.
(actually, I think leaders of churches & Christian entities are nervous and scared of losing financial viability. so they go on crusades & campaigns to rally the troops, planting ideas of “you have to get it right! you can’t get it wrong!” to make the troops dependent on them. it’s so wrong, all of it)
I think Anne Rice assessed Christianity correctly: “this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group.”
http://www.annerice.com/Chamber-Christianity.html
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I ran into an old friend, former church elder recently; he knows I have been functionally
ex-communicated from our former church. The last 10 years he has been first, a part of a Sovereign Grace Church, and now, for the past several years, a Southern Baptist Church that is under the influence (word choice intended) of 9 Marks.
I asked him about his family–he asked me if I was part of a Gospel-Centered church. I asked more questions about his family–he exhorted me about the need to be part of a Gospel-Centered church that was run according to Biblical principles. I think he used the word Gospel at least 10 times in our brief conversation; I had two thoughts regarding its use:
1. I do not think that word means what he (and 9 Marks) thinks it means (with apologies to Princess Bride).
2. My perception of their ‘Gospel’ is that they have lost sight of the person and presence of Christ–it is all about doctrine and knowledge, rather than relationship.
This is a man that I have great respect for–I am beyond sad at the capture of his heart and mind by what seems cultic, man-centered thought. . The other weird thing that he told me was that he made a statement of how smart Mohler and Dever are. I told my wife that if I hear the word Gospel used in that way one more time, I am going to start a ministry called Pound Sand Ministries. The ministry would encourage those who feel hammered by this distortion of the word Gospel to smile and tell the one using the Gospel as a weapon to ‘pound sand’; respectfully, of course.
The word Gospel has become weaponized; I can only hope for reformation that returns the Gospel to the context of ‘Good News’. Wade Burleson gets it–may the influence of Wade and like-minded men and women in ministry grow.
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I went to Liberty, and this reminds me of the two types of students I saw at LU.
The students whose parents taught them to do right, but loved and trusted them, were able to move quickly to mature adults.
The students whose parents sheltered and controlled everything they did as kids and teenagers went absolutely crazy when they got to college and their parents weren’t there telling them what to do. They were spiritually weak and immature, and they couldn’t deal with life.
Just because you think tight discipline of someone else will result in growth doesn’t mean it will. Discipline has to come from that person’s walk with God, and based on His love and trust.
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Hey, you did not use the word “biblical” in your list… It must not be truely biblical..
Estelle wrote:
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Great idea! But I think that we should say that winsomely and try to push people gently under our care. We should put them on our Pound Sand care list and pray for them to repent of their perversion of the Gospel and be restored to fellowship in a Pound Sand affiliated LocalChurch. Naturally, we would need to distribute resources to the Pound Sand affiliated LocalChurches and install bookstores or book sale racks for the Pound Sandway books.
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I am trying to understand why Dever says that pastors should not implement church discipline right away if it is “Biblical.” ISTM that a pastor who is not being “Biblical” should start doing things the “Biblical” way ASAP. Obviously, from a *pragmatic* POV it is clever to introduce things incrementally. But 9Marks is not about pragmatism, is it?
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Leeman asks, “Is there a track record of stupid pastors [implementing the 9Marks regimen]”
Dear Jonathan Leeman,
Yes.
Sincerely,
One of the Presbuteras
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@ Gram3:
Maybe it can be biblical and bad PR at the same time, in their hermeneutic?
Actually what it suggests is being even more covert.
Think if it: Who would even know about the Villiage church discipline process for a young woman who wants to separate from a missionary child pornographer husband unless she told her story publicly.
I wonder if that is what they are afraid of? Not bring able to control the one under their brand of discipline? Perhaps they are concerned for legal reasons…as they should be.
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@ Lydia:
And we are prepared to share their tragic testimonies with the world.
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I am in Houston for the week with the wife. Her job has her staying over here for a month, and her ne’er-do-well husband followed.
When I clicked on the 9Marrks church search, I was not shocked to see where there churches were. Most were in wealthy areas. The Woodlands, The west side of Houston, Ft. Bend County…..
Follow the money…..
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
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Christiane wrote:
I once had an SBC blog administrator tells me that the ‘biblical gospel’ was not the same as the four Holy Gospels of sacred Scripture. I have come to learn that the use of the word ‘biblical’ by fundamentalists is ‘code’ for cult=like applications of isolated verses.
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Velour wrote:
The Occult Gnosis (Greek for Sekrit Speshul Knowledge) that only the Inner Ring of Truly Reformed Illuminati can Understand?
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sorry, my first attempt to comment went awry . . . not sure what I did wrong there . . . need more coffee
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Pushing this type of issue is very important, it helps to define/contrast the YRR/neo-cal from traditional christianity
Christiane wrote:
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That facebook status is priceless.
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Max wrote:
Lies from day one.
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Velour wrote:
Maybe he would be hacking their website 🙂
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Estelle wrote:
And while we’re at it: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.”
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Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Ha!
BTW, check out this post, from 20 hours ago:
“QUESTION: Why should churches discipline members who no longer attend?”
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I haven’t checked, does the ESV even have this part? Or do they just skip it?
1 Corinthians 13 The Message (MSG)
The Way of Love
13 If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don’t love, I’m nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.
2 If I speak God’s Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, “Jump,” and it jumps, but I don’t love, I’m nothing.
3-7 If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don’t love, I’ve gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I’m bankrupt without love.
Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn’t want what it doesn’t have.
Love doesn’t strut,
Doesn’t have a swelled head,
Doesn’t force itself on others,
Isn’t always “me first,”
Doesn’t fly off the handle,
Doesn’t keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn’t revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.
8-10 Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
11 When I was an infant at my mother’s breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good.
12 We don’t yet see things clearly. We’re squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won’t be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We’ll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!
13 But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
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Oops, apologies to Lea – you beat me to the same thought.
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ishy wrote:
This was my impression in high school. The kids whose parents were most restrictive were wilder than the ones who were mostly free and trusted.
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Gram3 wrote:
The problem with church discipline is not that it isn’t biblical, it’s that it should be pretty rare, imo. But all these pastors have this shiny, control freak toy and they want to use it. Like giving a small town police department a tank. Wouldn’t you want to play with it? Even if it was only to get a cat down from a tree?
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Thanks for making me smile. Most recently I was trying to get a non-profit to consider a better human resources policy than just Matthew 18 “go to a brother”. The response I received was “but its biblical”. I found they were completely unable to engage, it was like trying to move a Mack truck that was out of gas, it is going to just sit there unmoving, nothing running internally.
Next time I will smile and think of “Pound Sand Ministries”. Can I print up business cards with “Pound Sand Ministries” on the front and on the back “What I want to tell you when you say its biblical”.
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Lea wrote:
Make an Example of one and the others will fall right into line.
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Bookbolter wrote:
Great minds! They especially should pay attention to the parts about not being proud or self seeking – because that’s pretty much all of them.
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Like a North Korean spokeshole using the words “Democratic” and “People’s”?
Or just a Smurf or Marclar?
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My view of 9 Marks is generally positive.
We started a church in 1992. We did not know Dever or what he was doing, but I met him a few years later.
It seems to me in Christian history many movements or ministries are often reactions to the excesses or failings of previous or existing ministries. One can almost pick out any Christian movement in the history of the U.S. and see some positive things, but also see how the movement is lacking. I believe this is almost inevitable.
Each of us is like that. We are raised in particular time, place, and in a particular family. And each of us probably has some ideas about how to correct the shortcomings of our own upbringing.
So, when I look at the 9 Marks, I can clearly see that they are a corrective or a counterbalance to some things.
In my view, the movements or unhealthy things to which 9 Marks was reacting are the trends and characteristics of the continued presence of theological liberalism, the health and wealth and prosperity Pentecostalism, the “Seeker” movement which was dominant at Willow Creek and other places, and some church movements which believe in the Bible and are in the “Baptist” camp (so to speak), but which through poor exegesis may have strains of legalism (an over emphasis on certain cultural behaviors) and an imbalance in the pulpit of emphasizing a “decision” every week (sometimes rooted in the Gospel, but sometimes not) without the balanced discipleship of people of by going through the entire Bible and trying to help a proper understanding.
There are also some particular polity descriptions (e.g. plurality of elders) that accompany their recommendations. Some I agree with. Others I do not.
9 Marks is not a list of the Christian virtues (e.g. love, joy, peace etc.) because that is not the particular thing that 9 Marks was seeking to address.
I am certain that Dever and others at 9 Marks are very familiar with Jesus’ statement that “people will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.”
They would not deny that. Nor did they forget it. I believe they would say that the principles they are trying to describe are the best way to establish a fellowship of believers where love will be shown because the place has the correct emphases and operates in a way that promotes love. At least that is what I think they would say.
When viewed in this light, we can see that each one of the 9 Marks addresses an unhealthy aspect of the movements or ideologies I have mentioned above.
The reason, in my view, that 9 Marks has been so successful is that the problems they are addressing are very real problems. Young pastors flock to these guys because they see the problems that the 9 Marks prescriptions address.
Dever and his staff are very accessible to pastors, and while I have never been to a 9 Marks conference, I have observed how Dever and others take an interest in pastors and seem to be offering something that is beneficial.
So – that’s the good side, in my view.
But as I said at the beginning – every Christian movement in the history of the U.S. has shortcomings. We can always find an overemphasis on one thing – and an underemphasis on another. Many times, these shortcomings can be serious, so serious that they threaten to undo the very good that the group is seeking to do.
Here is what one of the Wartburg Watch commenters, Eyeore, wrote about that:
“You may disagree with the particular stances of how they interpret Scripture and what they consider “unchanging moral truth”, but from their understanding they are trying their best to be faithful in an unfaithful world. The problem is, the blind-spots in the Reformed culture are deep enough and dangerous enough to blow the entire project sky-high, and leave lots of wounded and disillusioned parishioners in the wake.”
I have saved this quote because I think it is so good! Thanks, Eyeore!!
With 9 Marks, I believe that may be the case with the issue of church discipline and church membership.
I understand why 9 Marks has addressed the issue. It needed addressing. The same is true of the concept of membership.
These issues are correctives to a generation of seeker churches that for many can become entertainment venues, and a previous generation of church attendees for whom church became more like a country club membership.
But I do not agree with the particular theology that 9 Marks employs in some of its discipline and membership analysis. And I believe the application of their principles can lead churches into serious error and harm to people.
I also believe that Dever’s continued, devoted association with C.J. Mahaney, without any public word or discussion or repentance from Mahaney about all that went on at his churches, is disastrous in the wider evangelical world.
So – when it comes to 9 Marks or any Christian teaching ministry, I employ the advice I received as a young believer. You have to listen to Christian teachers as you eat a piece of fish –
Eat the fish – leave the bones.
Don’t become slavish fan boys of anyone or any movement.
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@ Lea:
I agree with all of that. What makes no sense to me is that Dever is essentially saying, “Don’t do what is Biblical right away. Keep on doing what is unBiblical until you can do what is Biblical in a way that does not make you a stupid pastor.” For a ministry that prides itself on doing church in the Biblical way, ISTM that they would not want to say what Dever is saying. If all these 9Marks are so essential, then how is it wise to not implement all of them right away? He undermines the reason for 9Marks’ existence.
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Anonymous wrote:
This is one major problem in itself.
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Johnny Hopkins wrote:
The funny thing about this is that most of the churches I have attended for decades have held to expository preaching and were not Calvinistas.
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Anonymous wrote:
But these were present in my nonCalvinistic churches throughout my life. I believe the real reason for 9Marks is to promote NeoCalvinism. If it wasn’t, they would have joined with other groups that truly care about similar issues.
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K.D. wrote:
Add Dubai…
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Great post, Deb.
I wonder what Joe Carter will think. 🙂
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@ Anonymous:
“You have to listen to Christian teachers as you eat a piece of fish – ”
++++++++
can I eat a piece of fish minus the Christian teachers?
(an honest question)
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Anonymous wrote:
There is a lot of good stuff in your comment, and I think that they do see themselves as bringing correction to the church in all the instances you listed. The question is really whether their view of themselves is based in reality, and I do not think that it is.
What they do *not* see is that they have brought merely a different *form* of departing from the texts and a different *form* of legalism and a different *kind* of altar call. Instead of “liberalism” they have gone all in with fanciful eisegesis and illogical reasoning regarding “complementarianism.” I cannot see a functional difference between denying the truth of the texts of the Bible and importing new doctrines and pretending they are in the texts while making them essentials of the Gospel. Both are forms of denying the Gospel, though different people prefer one over the other. Instead of no dancing and drinking legalism we have onerous membership covenants and churches where any hint of dissent is not tolerated. None. Zero. Instead of an evangelistic altar call, they are evangelistic about their philosophy of ministry and their doctrinal distinctives. They have an altar call to a different gospel.
I understand why someone who has not been on the receiving end of 9Marks’ philosophy might not be as alarmed by it as someone who has been on the receiving end of 9Marks’ philosophy. And it is a philosophy that is grounded in the idea that some people should rule over other people. Obviously they cannot come out and say that plainly, but that is what is behind their ministry.
Karen Hinckley’s experience with The Village and Matt Chandler’s ElDERS is a perfect picture of an implementation of 9Marks philosophy. It received well-deserved outrage and ridicule. And it exposed the truth behind the facade they promote.
I so appreciate your words about Mahaney. If only more people who are sympathetic to the YRR positions would express what you have. Thank you.
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dee wrote:
But those other groups promote the Word of God, NOT the Word of CALVIN.
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Gram3 wrote:
I mean, I think we all know the answer right? They are at least smart enough to realize that some people are using church discipline in ways that are harmful/andor embarrassing (TVC) to their movement. They are not willing to chuck a mark. So they come up with this halfhearted ‘don’t try this too soon’ position.
It’s ridiculous, but very human.
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Anonymous wrote:
Obviously not. But they are advising church leadership in how to lead. These passages are very important counterbalances to the authoritarian impulses. When you leave them out, you miss the point. If you don’t truly love bobby joe or suzy gene you may do something incredibly stupid with this ‘church discipline’ mark, like deciding someone should be disciplined because you disagree with them on something trivial, or alternately something very important!
Of course, people without love in their hearts will not be convinced by having someone mention the umpteenmillion times Christians are told that everything else is garbage if you don’t have love…but maybe they could at least be peer pressured into keeping up appearances.
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@ Lea:
“They are at least smart enough to realize that some people are using church discipline in ways that are harmful/andor embarrassing (TVC) to their movement. They are not willing to chuck a mark. So they come up with this halfhearted ‘don’t try this too soon’ position.”
+++++++++++
they can’t backtrack now, can they. too much already invested. the loss in money, reputation, and social standing would be too great.
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@ Lea:
Definitely human. And pragmatic rather than principled. I think the Karen Hinckley situation was deeply embarrassing to them. Not enough to make them change, but enough to generate a PR breakout session.
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And I think the Gospel Glitterati, including 9Marks, *should* be ashamed of their performance and their doctrine in the wake of Karen Hinckley. And I mean ashamed in every sense of that word. Shame in being exposed and also a reason to look inward in self-examination. The entire Village meltdown reminds me of Jael and Sisera. Except their wound is totally self-inflicted. Karen just refused to be a victim or be shamed by her ELDERS who shamed themselves.
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Gram3 wrote:
It should have been more than embarrassing, it should have been a wakeup call. Sadly, I agree with you that this is just PR for now.
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Lea wrote:
The only comment there now is some guy thanking someone else for waffle mix. Biblical waffle mix, of course.
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@ Lea:
“Of course, people without love in their hearts will not be convinced by having someone mention the umpteenmillion times Christians are told that everything else is garbage if you don’t have love”
+++++++++++
love?? perhaps it’s not that they don’t have love in their hearts but rather that they have been religiously conditioned to turn off their normal & healthy intuitive sense of love.
considering statements from leaders of influential churches such as:
-“….motivated by a desire to care for you and your family”, while simultaneously destroying them. (Brad House to Paul Petry in the Mars Hill true shenanigans)
-“Have we tried to help push her under our care?”, as in control her life, marriage, & finances while destroying the social fabric of her life. (Steve Hardin regarding Karen Hinkley in The Village Church’s Gospel-centeredness)
….I reckon the 9Marks/Acts 29 influence is enough to brainwash away healthy, normal, and intuitive understanding of love and twist it into something grotesque and destructive.
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Gram3 wrote:
Your commentary brought to mind this… It's the Gospel + 9Marks
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Lea wrote:
This reminds me of the Duggars.
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Lea wrote:
Perfect!
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Anonymous wrote:
The 9 marks philosophy does not appear to be aimed at bringing people to church. Seems to be aimed at locking the doors to keep people in. The authoritarian religion espoused forces you to eat the bones & some people are choking.
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@ Jack:
Welcome to the Hotel California! You can NEVER leave (unless you transfer your membership to a like-minded church, and you have to do it ASAP!)
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Deb wrote:
Gospel math says that 9Marks (or anything or anyone else) must take the value of zero in order for Gospel to be Gospel.
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Here's a post from 2010 that seems just as relevant today.
Nine Marks of an Abusive Church
Those Nine Marks are:
(1) Control-oriented style of leadership
(2) Spiritual elitism
(3) Manipulation of members
(4) Perceived persecution
(5) Lifestyle rigidity
(6) Suppression of dissent
(7) Harsh discipline of members
(8) Denunciation of other churches
(9) Painful exit process
A number of these do seem to apply to some 9Marks churches.
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Bill M wrote:
Bill, feel free to make up business cards–Pound Sand Ministries will be under the ‘covering’ of the First Church of the Rebuked Brethren–Divided. Our mission statement is that “a rebuke a day keeps the devil away”. Women have full rights and responsibilities though we would say it is OK to be earnest, like the men, rather than winsome. The only rule is that we can laugh at ourselves and those in pharisaical-style leadership. We will not laugh at those who have suffered at the hands, however well meaning, of others
If I could not laugh about this stuff, I would surely cry…
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I think personal healing is often proportional to the measure that we understand God’s mirth. Chesterton stated that the mirth of God is so holy, that Scripture does not directly address it. Though a prayerful reading of the parables will surely give one a wonderful taste.
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Gram3 wrote:
And it was implemented by one of the most glittering of the gospel boys who is supposed to be so awesome.
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With apologies to Chesterton lovers, I paraphrased his commentary regarding mirth–a more exact rendering is that mirth is spoken little of in Scripture because His mirth is so holy.
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Gram3 wrote:
I think that Mark Dever is feeling the heat of all of the excommunications and shunnings, lives and reputations of good Christians destroyed for exercising Christian conscience/dissent/autonomy over one’s own life, friendships destroyed, families destroyed, churches destroyed.
It was like Mark Dever handed all of these pastors/elders scalpels [church discipline, the ‘power of the keys’/excommunication as Dever is fond of saying] and Mark Dever repeatedly advocated that they use it. They did. Mark Dever failed to send them to ‘medical school’ first to become ‘surgeons’ to use the tool properly. Damage done, Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and other 9Marxists. Christians ‘cut up’, wounded, and bleeding everywhere.
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Anonymous wrote:
This is the very problem with Mark Dever and 9Marks. Pastors should NOT be flocking to Dever for solutions, nor should he be providing them with solutions. Every congregation of believers is perfectly capable of solving problems through prayer, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Scripture, wisdom, and the brains and gifts the Lord gave those believers.
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@ Velour:
This is why we continue to focus on 9Marks. They have done much damage in the kingdom of God.
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Lea wrote:
Because they are running out of whipping boys?
But seriously let's think this through for a moment. In effect, wouldn't anyone who attends that church and signed a membership covenant automatically be in church discipline? They could call it 'first time obedience for adult members'. Hee hee.
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Anonymous wrote:
Isn’t this a false dichotomy?
The swinging pendulum is a political dynamic, of the world system. You would think that seeing unscriptural things going on in the church would inspire one to turn back to the Bible, not set up an opposing unscriptural system.
Maybe 9marks is a reaction to trends and characteristics, or maybe it is seizing an opportune moment while believers are distracted by one extreme, using it to push the other extreme in the door.
I fail to see it as corrective because a church can easily practice more than one wrong at a time. A church that is already wrong can add 9marks to their system and be more wrong.
How can it be corrective to legalism, when it is legalistic itself? It’s all about control of people and organizations, “the deeds of the Nicolaitans”- the separating of laity and clergy, the creation of a ruling class.
As someone who learned my error the hard way, I want to encourage you not to assume the intentions or motives of others. If love is not the most important part of their message, there is no logical reason to make assumptions about their value of it.
There is a pursuit of power inherent in 9 marks. I suggest that a person or church cannot pursue both power and God. “No man can serve two masters.” Power belongs to God alone. God alone can exercise power righteously.
The most healthy churches I have attended have been those where the pastor saw his role as serving God, wherever God sent him, and leaving the results in God’s hands. These were men who faithfully taught the word of God and allowed the Holy Spirit to work in the believers’ lives. They had no need or desire for membership lists or contracts or any other methods of coercion. These were men who were building up treasures in heaven, not building themselves little kingdoms to lord over here on earth. Maybe the problem is that many are pursuing the pastorate when they have not been called to it. Maybe they would be more suited to business.
Eat the fish – leave the bones.
This can be poor advice to a young believer, since they do not have the knowledge, wisdom and experience yet to recognize what is fish and what is bone. Better advice would be to test all teachings by the word of God, remembering that “a little leaven leavens the whole lump.” (A review of Galatians 5, one of the places this statement is found, is very applicable to 9marks.) When you discern leaven, do not keep picking around. Turn away.
I want to suggest a better way to examine 9marks:
1. Compare it to the scripture.
2. Look at the fruit.
Examples of the fruit are all over the internet.
I think it is time for believers to put away all the books, the programs and the man-made systems, and turn wholeheartedly back to the word of God. It is more than ample to guide us.
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@ Anonymous:
I am aware that you are totally immersed in that world. However you find Mahaney a horrible embarrassment. And you comment on the Mahaney problem here. However you are not connecting the dots between Mahaney, Mohler and Dever on church discipline and many of the other behavioral problems that have taken place. Why in the world would Dever have anything to teach or model for you or your church? Are you separating the actual person from their own behavior?
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@ siteseer:
Good points. And when we study the passages they use for church discipline it becomes very interesting indeed. They simply don’t fit their own models.
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Lea wrote:
Reminds me of how they dug up Wycliffe’s bones to burn them.
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Bill M wrote:
I would like to be a charter member of Pound Sand Ministries. I’d like to help run the online store. For ladies, I’ll be stocking PSM leggings and Down with the Patriarchy t-shirts. This will surely get us in trouble with the Calvinistas for violating *Biblical* woman dress codes.
For the truly *Biblical* men that you know, the PSM online gift shop will be carrying dresses and sandals, because after all that’s what Jesus wore! (It would be nice if we passed the hat and bought Owen Strachan, the young pup who heads of Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and son-in-law of Bruce Ware (the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son heresy) a dress and sandals. I’ve been worried for quite some time that Owen isn’t *practicing what he preaches*.
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Anonymous wrote:
Lol! I live at Ground Zero and have a totally different perspective. They don’t have a clue about the problems except what they were told were problems at Seminary. They were groomed to be little despots who hold the truth while most pew peons don’t.
If anyone should know you should know those membership covenants are legal documents.
The 20-somethings flock to 9 marks because it will teach them how to control people and have power. They are all about being obeyed. Now they couch it in the smarmy caring language worthy of mahaney as in “caring for your soul” and our responsibility as Elder before God, etc. But make no mistake, they love the pedestal 9marks teaching puts them on.
9marks is the Neo Cal equivalent to giving teenage boys whiskey and car keys. Dangerous and very unwise.
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Velour wrote:
I would winsomely suggest this be changed to PSM Yoga Pants and ‘Smashing the patriarchy is my cardio’ tops!
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siteseer wrote:
I think a lot of abusive, authoritarian pastors/elders used the “I was called by God to the ministry” line the way they use *Biblical* (do it my way or you’re a heretic), simply to shut down all discussion and questioning. If you don’t think he was called to the ministry then you’re challenging God.
My former NeoCalvinist pastor was fond of telling the flock he was called by God to preach. All of the former church members and church staff members would beg to differ.
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Lea wrote:
Duly noted. Yes, I will be carrying PSM yoga pants AND leggings and “Smashing the patriarchy is my cardio’ t-shirts. You see, we have been able to solve small problems without Mark Dever. So there.
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Velour wrote:
Maybe that’s because we’re women? With no one in charge by virtue of their manhood, we learned to actually talk to each other! Yay us.
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Deb wrote:
Thank you, Deb!
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One thing that concerned me about the 9Marks movement is that they attempt by polity to perform the work of the Spirit in terms of members’ commitments and choices. By placing such an authoritarian emphasis on the members responsibility to their local church, they do not allow people the freedom to follow the Spirit, unless the members are directed to do things within the parameters 9Marks has specified. For example, members may be punished for not tithing, for not attending small group meetings, for not evangelizing, for admonishing leadership where they need it, for resigning membership, etc. 9Marks churches require members to fit a particular mold instead of allowing the Spirit to prompt and define what an individual Christian’s life. They would contend that they are only requiring members to do what Scripture requires. It is obvious that they have gone beyond what is written and in some areas have “neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith”.
“Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Is there freedom in these churches? Is the Spirit allowed room to work (outside of the box that it appears they have created for him)? Are the gifts of the Spirit freely allowed to function within these churches? With the emphasis on discipline and membership, it appears that they have neglected the “weaker” parts of the body, whom we NEED in the church for a healthy functioning body, in favor of the teaching/administration gifts! The majority of these churches are cessationist. How can they properly function without the gifts they need to be healthy? “And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.” The gifts of the Spirit really do not seem to play into the 9Marks schema (other than in the box they have created).
“You shall know them by their fruit.” What sorts of fruit have been borne from these churches? I’m sure some people have come to know Christ, and like Paul, we’re grateful for however that happens, but look at the public incidences of bad fruit: pastors who have brought shame upon the name of Christ for their handling of sexual abuse within their churches, pastors who have been removed from their pulpits for sin, a parachurch organization that doesn’t stand alongside those abused within these churches, a culture of celebrity pastors, etc. Are these the fruits of the Spirit working in the church? Healthy churches should see an increase in the things mentioned in Ephesians 4: “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace… From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, joins and builds itself up in love… Put off your old self…Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
One of the distinguishing features of healthy churches I have been a part of was an emphasis on prayer, praying, seeking God together, seeing answers to prayer, seeing discernment given, seeing lives transformed. It was an acknowledgement that we cannot “do” church without the supernatural power of God. I find it interesting that prayer is not one of the 9 Marks. It was one of the defining characteristics of the churches in Acts: “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.”
Jesus himself seemed to know what the marks of a healthy church were as he addressed the churches in Revelation. He called them out for leaving their first love, for tolerating idolatry and immorality, for having dead works, and for being spiritually poor, lukewarm, and blind. What Jesus loved in the churches was their patience, their discernment, their perseverance, their hearts of faith, their good works even amidst trials and hypocrites, their steadfast devotion to him, their love, faith, patience, their commitment to Jesus and his words. In focusing on what is biblical, they have missed the forest for the trees. The Spirit, his activity in his gifts and his fruits and his reality in believers’ lives– Spirit-filled believers make a Spirit-filled church which is a healthy church.
Lots of thoughts lately on these things. 🙂
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bea wrote:
Good thoughts!
Liked 🙂
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Lea wrote:
We don’t know better. :o)
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Lea wrote:
My former church was an authoritarian, abusive, NeoCalvinist, 9Marxist church. I can answer this question because I saw it in practice. Mark Dever claims in 9Marks that the local church has the ‘power of the keys’ to pronounce whether someone is saved or not. Anyone that tries to leave the church because they differ say on matters of doctrine is not permitted to leave. If they leave they are still *disciplined before all* and everyone is told to shun them, have nothing to do with them, they aren’t one of us. “We worked with them for a long, long, long time — to no avail [meaning the Christian wouldn’t bow and scrape].
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Anonymous wrote:
I’ve heard this one a lot myself. It bothered me some 40+ years ago when I heard it first from Corrie ten Boom. A few more decades have only made it bother me more.
That advice, I am sure, works well as a response to ‘taking in’ an INDIVIDUAL book or teacher. As when the ‘bone’ is along the lines of choosing to overlook some quirk, mannerism, or goofup specific to the speaker, that doesn’t really impact the fullness of what they are teaching/writing.
In which case, one can and should enjoy the fish and get rid of the *occasional* bone encountered.
But this well-used phrase is too easily mis-used. It is fuzzy and can be used to obfuscate, excuse.
What is the acceptable ratio of fish-to-bone?
When this bony fish is being served, is there ever an opportunity for the fish-eaters to publicly speak out at some point and note that they just encountered a fish bone – and warn their fellow pewishioners to chew more carefully?
Do the men presenting the fish ever warn the fish-eaters to always be wary of potential fishbones in the fish they are serving?
I know for the decade+ I was in the shepherding/discipleship movement, not once did leaders EVER say that there might be bones in that there fish.
In point of fact, just the opposite – we were told that those bones WERE fish, and no amount of showing them the bright shiny bone stuck in the roof of your mouth from the fish they just served, ever caused them to question themselves or what they were serving.
And the saying doesn’t take age into consideration. Toddlers have to be told more than once to ‘watch out for bones.’ Yet, spiritual toddlers are never warned by leaders about potential fishbones in the teaching they are about to hear.
It isn’t an occasional quirk or error that could easily be ignored, in my opinion, it isn’t that we need to watch out for the occasional bones – it’s that poison permeates the fish.
.
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A bone that I can not swallow is that Mark Dever, or a pastor like him holds “the keys” to the kingdom for me… While the reformation was Many things, one was that we “commoners” can go to G$d directly…. We do not a human mediator…. Claiming you “hold the keys” says otherwise… I do not see how 9Marks, YRR, etc, can Wessel out of their claim to be our ” mediator”…
BL wrote:
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I used the church search function you linked. None in my town. Whew.
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Anonymous wrote:
The problem is that Mark Dever, 9Marx, Acts 29, and the NeoCalvinists have been serving up the toxic, deadly Blow Fish (known in Japanese sushi because if it is miscut the diner dies and immortalized in an episode of ‘The Simpsons’ http://www.hulu.com/watch/33383 ).
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Lydia wrote:
Lydia, the “local church” has become a sixth Sola.
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The true nine marks of a healthy church:
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-control
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@ Tim:
Great news! It's incredible to think that churches have gotten along without the 9Marks, Acts 29, etc. for over 2,000 years!
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siteseer wrote:
I do not think their approach would fly in the business world. I am having difficulty coming up with names of men who I think could have any prayer of surviving, much less prospering, in the world of business. Most of these guys went to seminary right out of college and have never had a real job with real accountability. They already have the best gig they could possibly land, and I think many of them know it at one level or another.
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Lydia wrote:
Agreed that Siteseer has great points, as usual. You are highlighting a truly glaring problem that Anonymous is overlooking for some reason. And that problem is the utter hypocrisy of the CJ Mahaney nonsense. What does Dever teach all these pastors about Mahaney? One thing or possibly two: loyalty to ones’ friends trumps loyalty to Christ, and the Rules only apply to the pewpeons. I do not think that either of those two lessons is consistent with any part of the New Testament or with the example of our Lord himself.
They have nothing good to teach because they have become leaders before they were learners at the feet of anyone other than one of the Anointed Ones in GG land.
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dee wrote:
Dee: I don’t disagree. 9 Marks promotes its stuff within the context of Reformed theology, and that is clearly their brand.
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Gram3 wrote:
I’m thinking of the passages about leading by example (which doesn’t seem to be a mark). He is teaching them, by example, that pastors and people in with the in crowd are exempt. Period.
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elastigirl wrote:
Sure. That is a part of the Christian life – to have direct communion with God, and have the Holy Spirit teach you.
I have still found a few bones when I do that; however 🙂
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Gram3 wrote:
Gram: Lots of good wisdom from you here. I am old enough to look back on all of the stuff that I did that I thought was going to change this or that, and sometimes only see that I was as bad as the people I was trying to correct.
Christian truth and the life of the church has so many facets. It’s worse than a golf swing or a swimming stroke. There are so many things to master that once you think you get one aspect down, you are messed up somewhere else.
That’s why being kind to people in church is so important. We don’t worship people, but it really is about how you love people.
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Velour wrote:
Velour: You are right. But I guess since Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield were preaching in the U.S., pastors and people have looked to other pastors and speakers to assist in advice etc.
It’s a careful balance. A lot like sermon preparation. You want to a message from God in communing with Him, but if there are helps and books written by others, they, too, can be helpful. The problem is our human nature to elevate people.
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Anonymous wrote:
While that wisdom may generally apply, sometimes the meat itself is poisonous.
What then?
Some of what is going on in “survivor blogs” is to point out the Fukushima-type radiation already in the fish *before* people try to figure out whether it’s toxic while attempting to eat it.
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Lydia wrote:
Lydia: Good question. I suppose so. My context for meeting Dever, Mohler and others over 20 years ago was completely separated and aside from Mahaney. I have never even met Mahaney. I suppose people inhabit different spheres and only intersect when they have common interests or connections.
Also, our church does not buy into everything these guys say – church covenants, discipline, biblical manhood – most of the stuff on here that is rightfully discussed as problematic is not something that is part of our church or experience.
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@ BL:
Anonymous said: “You have to listen to Christian teachers as you eat a piece of fish – Eat the fish – leave the bones.”
BL: “But this well-used phrase is too easily mis-used.”
++++++++++++++++++
i’m stuck on why I have to listen to Christian teachers in the first place. I’ve heard it all — haven’t heard anything fresh or inspired in years. if we’re talking about spiritual nourishment here, it’s a no-Christian-speaker-required state of affairs. I can feed myself a nice piece of fish.
i’m sure i’m kind of missing Anon’s point. too tired today – minimal sleep the last few nights.
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Gram, Bill M. and HUG, appreciate your humorous comments–a website selling the appropriate gear would really help my retirement savings–if only I could get one of the Big-Dogs to endorse it. Best, though, to share humor and pathos freely.
The friend I referenced in my 6:38 AM comment was genuinely concerned for my soul. Goes to the 9 Marks emphasis that one cannot be saved if one is outside the ‘right’ kind of church. I am touched by his concern–though again, saddened at the theological trap he has fallen into. It seems this trap induces a desire in many to conform to a rigid system–I wonder how they preach expositorily from Galations?
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When someone can make a list and write a book on the marks of a healthy church and not one of them is love, something is very wrong.
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elastigirl wrote:
LOL.
You’re preaching to the choir here. 😉
I point out all the time that Jesus taught folks for about THREE YEARS – and then sent them off into the world.
While we have leaders who teach folks for THIRTY YEARS – and won’t let them move across town without permission.
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Anonymous wrote:
There are no bones in caviar. Too many fan boys and useful idiots believe that everything these guys serve up is top quality caviar.
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Anonymous wrote:
What if they’re trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you?
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John wrote:
A+
Thanks to you and everyone else who noted that this is the ONLY mark of the church.
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@ Gram3:
“What does Dever teach all these pastors about Mahaney? One thing or possibly two: loyalty to ones’ friends trumps loyalty to Christ, and the Rules only apply to the pewpeons. I do not think that either of those two lessons is consistent with any part of the New Testament or with the example of our Lord himself.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
or, in my observation, with character standards in your average human being. my agnostic relatives and friends would find this reprehensible. (the fact that someone who believes in the God of the Bible would compromise like this)
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Anonymous wrote:
i.e. Impure Ideology (not TRULY Reformed)?
And Objectivism addresses the unhealthy aspects of Communist Ideology.
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Jack wrote:
“We never had to build a wall to keep our people in!”
— JFK regarding the Berlin Wall
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elastigirl wrote:
“Urrr… It’s all Under the Blood.”
— Mike Warnke
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FWIW: Dever defines a healthy church as “a congregation that increasingly reflects God’s character as his character has been revealed in his Word.”
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Velour wrote:
Meet your reformed competition: http://www.missionalwear.com/
Missional Wear began in 2010, with the aim of blending theology with apparel in order to create a truly unique product.
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Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Read it again. 😉
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@ FW Rez:
Thanks!
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
We can offer you the endorsement of a couple of little dogs, Pugs to be precise (the official mascots of TWW). They have all of the ferocity, however, of the *big dogs*.
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Tim wrote:
I wish our community were so lucky.
We have at least two in our area. Our church regularly gets refugees from them, generally fleeing because of controlling teachings about women and marriage. We sit with them through their tears, assure them that they are not crazy, tell them they have a home here and have them serve communion!
Actually, all our former 9Markers have been great people. We are grateful to have them.
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John wrote:
I believe we are just beginning to see the fruit of the 9Marks way of doing church.
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Velour wrote:
Not just pugs. Let's not forget my Maltese Coconut. She's tiny but fearless! 🙂
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Deb wrote:
Awww.
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@ Loren Haas:
As I stated in the post, we have 13!
When you talk with some of these refugees, please let them know that we are always open to telling their stories. Not only is it therapeutic for those who have been hurt, but it helps others trapped in the 9Marx system and warns those not yet involved to beware.
Thanks for showing so much of Christ’s love to these sisters in Christ.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That reminded me of this 9Marks article:
https://9marks.org/article/pastors-dont-let-your-people-resign-into-thin-air/
Why would anyone want to resign into thin air if they were 'feeling the love' in their Christian fellowships?
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Correct. I am not talking about Mahaney and his churches and the survivor blogs. My exposure to 9 Marks, Dever et al. is not at all connected to Mahaney.
I would not characterize everything Mark Dever says as radioactive or toxic. I believe he does a very good job with much of what he teaches. I do not agree with the basic framework of their view of discipline per Matt 18 and I Cor 5, though I believe that church discipline is important. Morales, for example, should not only have been prosecuted, but he also should have been disciplined in the church.
I also have problems with their approach on membership, membership covenants, biblical manhood and a host of other cultural issues.
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elastigirl wrote:
Therein lies the rub: Is this someone who believes in the God of the Bible or the God of their own authority, the Doctrines of Grace, and their “local church”?
One can graduate from a seminary, occupy a pulpit, speak at conferences (and even scatter their talk with the word “Jesus” and “gospel”), they can recite scriptures and argue persuasively from an orthodox Christian perspective, they can donate money to just causes and maintain a superficially righteous aura–and not know Jesus at all, in fact harbor secret resentment towards Him that even they are afraid to acknowledge to themselves.
I tend to care more how one treats another, do they reflect the image of God by demonstrating true love (not hateful, passive-aggressive “loving you well”), are they patient, kind (not nice!), gentle, self-controlled, do they do this all with true joy (not false piety), do they, in humility, consider others better than themselves, do they understand that leaders are to lead, if at all, by godly example, do they understand that they’re to be the least and the last and never reserve the best seats for themselves (e.g., such as at T4G conferences), do they allow the entire church to discipline, as the Bible says, or do they do things in secret counsels, in the inner rooms, or in the open?
Are they Christlike or more antiChrist?
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Loren Haas wrote:
Do you mind if I ask the denomination of your church?
I will keep it in my mind in my own area if they’ve managed to escape Neo-Calvinism, 9Marx, Acts 29, Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood, and the other authoritarian groups.
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Loren Haas wrote:
I just read it. Then I read Dever’s post from 2010. Spotted 2 huge problems. 1 – he cited the Village Church in Dallas, TX as a church practicing discipline the right way.
Well, how a church could ever even come close to disciplining a woman who was leaving her husband who was into child porn (and maybe worse) just tells you that the construct for discipline is way off.
Then you read Dever’s description of Matt 18 – it says that the church should discipline an “unrepentant sinner.” That is NOT what Matt 18 says.
Matt 18 is specifically addressing one person in the fellowship who has sinned against another person in the fellowship. This passage is a mechanism for helping protect one person in the congregation who has been harmed by another and it’s a method for resolving that.
Matt 18 is not addressing disciplining people who sin generally. You would have to discipline everyone, every day.
I Cor 5 is there – but it applies to a heinous situation that “even the Gentiles” recognized was wrong.
I would submit that these 2 categories are very small and limited.
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Gram3 wrote:
The loyalty/friend angle is what I hear the most which is now accepted by society in many areas: politics, business, entertainment. They even manage to make themselves out to be semi Heroes for sticking by their friend during a crisis. Not a lot is said about the victim’s left behind. And people end up admiring their loyalty to their friend in crisis.
Of course this angle became all-encompassing when the elite started hiring image professionals. It works so why not copy when you can make the Bible say anything you want and you are the masters of the church discipline universe. The youngens are over come with their greatness and even laugh at a joke made by one of the loyal friends…. at the expense of the victims.
Yes, Just like Jesus.(sigh)
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Gram3 wrote:
Exactly
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Gram3 wrote:
This is why they are adamant about elder polity in the SBC as the one most true to scripture. How they get there must be read into it.
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@ Gram3:
Gram3 is correct. These “leaders” would NOT be good in business. For starters, their business organization will suffer when they (1) hire and promote only those just like them, (2) get sued for gender and age discrimination, (3) use authority to stifle collaboration and creativity, (4) listen only to those who agree with them rather than others with experience and wisdom, and (5) micro-manage so the focus is on mindless “transgressions” rather than issues of substance.
As a recently retired woman from a 30-year career in consulting and administration in healthcare businesses across the country, I might have a little credibility in predicting those outcomes. And in a couple real life scenarios, I witnessed these manifestations of business colleagues whose [negative] behaviors in business are unfortunately reinforced every Sunday by their authoritarian and/or complementarian local churches.
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Anonymous wrote:
There you go. The other excuse I hear for ruining people. We all make mistakes when we are young…blah, blah. And I realize now I was just as bad as the other people….
Really? You were helping to protect pedophile protectors when you were a young man? Ruining people is part of growing up?
You want to stick to vague generalities and I really do get that because when one gets specific about Dever, Mahaney and Mohler- the connections between them and what has gone on in so many churches now, it makes it very hard to defend 9 marks and what, if anything is good about. The balance sheet is in the red with blood.
I don’t think there is anything harder in this world then admitting that one invested ones credibility into something one thought was a spiritually good thing for people which turns out to be a cruel self serving total disaster. Most people, especially if elders, are embarrassed to admit their part in supporting these authoritarian extra biblical ministries. I have seen this up close and personal way too often.
There Comes A Time when innocent people are more important than loyalty to friends or a program one went along with at church. There is an arrogance out there that says we can do it right. But the foundation and premise of 9 marks is the real problem. It is based on the idea that special men must be over the ignorant masses who need discipline. That is a disaster waiting to happen
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@ Anonymous:
I am confused at your defense and attempt to water down the glaring problems of the 9 Marx philosophy which demands an authoritarian top-down model of the body to operate. Perhaps you are an elder at your Reformed church which adopted some of the 9 Marx philosophy?
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@ Velour:
Velour, we are American Baptist. You should know that churches in this denomination vary widely. Ours is moderately progressive, others not so much. Our church is very supportive of women in the church- female associate pastor, majority female board. We also make space for more than twenty recovery groups each week.
Check us out: crosswalknapa.org
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Anonymous wrote:
I and others who’ve had experience in abusive 9Marxist churches so lives, friendships, reputations, and Christians’ dignity and self-worth destroyed by Mark Dever’s abusive 9Marks and his teachings. Dever’s teachings have destroyed lives and churches. Dever’s teachings have destroyed marriages. Dever’s teachings have destroyed families. Dever’s teachings have given rise to such anguish and grief, that Christians have been forced to get medical care for their problems (giving the name of Christ a reproach among unbelievers who want to know why purported ‘Christians’ could be so vicious, because not even unbelievers would do such a thing!).
Dever is toxic.
Todd Wilhelm and others who post here can also attest to that.
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^correction, should read: “have seen so many lives…”
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@ Loren Haas:
Thanks Loren. I’m a few hours away from you, Silicon Valley.
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BL wrote:
And they were not the cream of the rabbinical crop. That was later with the educated Paul. No, our Lord chose the ones who did not even make the first cut and had to go work mostly at 14. I guess He thought they could get it at some point. :o)
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Nancy2 wrote:
Love it!
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Tim wrote:
Oh my, Sometime ago I just checked and found none, now there is a Baptist church that show up on their map. I visited the church website, went to their membership page, and what would you guess was the first thing under “Why membership”? … Hebrews 13:17! Okay, easy guess, but it was the very first words.
Later in their text:
“pastors are accountable for their sheep (members) and people (members) are to submit to their leader (pastors).”
Yup, its 9Marks alright.
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@ FW Rez:
The Word is Jesus Christ. He is God and our example of what God is like and what we can be like. That becomes a problem for the 9 Marxists.
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@ Anonymous:
Ok. So what exactly does he have to teach you and your church when you admit he gets the obvious wrong from scripture. He transports his personal philosophy in to the scripture passages!
Is your church 9Marks?
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Agreed. Even the unbelievers generally understand that protecting a child predator is morally wrong. And I believe most unbelievers understand that covering up for someone who has systematically covered up such sin is wrong. Such clarity of principle is lacking in 9Marks and in the YRR movement in general. The north star of the Gospel Glitterati is who you are. They cannot deny the numerous examples of cronyism and nepotism. That is certainly not exclusive to 9Marks and the YRR, but when someone is hectoring everyone else about how to do church right it just as certainly neuters their message. Some might say that it does worse than neuter their message.
I am curious which of 9Marks teachings you find attractive enough to counter all the negative and anti-Gospel teaching, and what positive results do you thing justify the abuses within the System? ISTM that adding to the Gospel and adding to the text are two things which should be categorically unacceptable to *any* conservative evangelical who can make a connection between a half-dozen brain cells. For “leaders” to endorse and promote such unEvangelical ideas is nearly unimaginable in any sane world, but here we are talking about those very things.
Top-down polity should be anathema to Baptists. And most certainly, a supra-LocalChurch organization that effectively dictates what local churches do is un-Baptist by definition. And let me assure you that 9Marks reaches into local Baptist churches directly by supplying them with “resources” and via informal networks and formal networks.
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Lydia wrote:
Like that scene early in A Man for All Seasons:
King Henry VIII is disembarking from the Royal Barge onto the bank of the Thames where there is no pier or quay. King Henry drops off the bow of the barge and lands in the mud up to his knees. The courtiers and nobles aboard the barge watch in shocked silence for a moment; then King Henry starts points at them and starts to laugh. All the courtiers start laughing in unison with King Henry.
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I just wanted to share this. It’s on why women are leaving the church. It’s more Catholic-based, but I think it can apply to Protestants too. One person commented that the conservative church is getting crazier and crazier. Another responded that once the disgusted leave, all that is left are the disgusting. So true!
http://religiondispatches.org/women-are-leaving-church-and-the-reason-seems-clear/
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@ Law Prof:
“[they can do all manner of wonderfully ‘christian’-looking things]”…they can donate money to just causes and maintain a superficially righteous aura–and not know Jesus at all, in fact harbor secret resentment towards Him that even they are afraid to acknowledge to themselves.”
+++++++++++++
I’ve truly wondered about this. my intuitive sensors pick up on feedback that suggests that some church leaders are threatened by Jesus and the attention & limelight he gets. and they compete with Jesus for these things by ignoring him while they have the mic and the spotlight (at least as much as they can get away with).
the feedback also suggests that this is partly subconscious on their part. I suspect the reason for it all is how their realm of Christian culture ascribes power and glory to upper echelon men leaders, pumping up their egos.
but this is old news, isn’t it.
———
I tend to care more how one treats another, …..and never reserve the best seats for themselves (e.g., such as at T4G conferences), ….
++++++++++++++
well isn’t this one of the top vital signs for “i’m-a-celebrity-&-yes-i’m-all-that-and-more-why-just-look-at-how-humble-&-disinterested-in-my-own-greatness-i-can-appear-as-I-sit-here-in-my-chair-in-the-celebrity-section-pre-show-with-hunched-over-humble-body-posture-all-by-myself-so-as-to-draw-attention-to-myself-as-i-read-my-notes” egocentrism.
crimany, these silly men…
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Gram3 wrote:
I might add, in my 50 years in fundamentalist Baptist, evangelical, campus ministry, and mainline denomination, I NEVER heard that my pastor “holds the keys” to my salvation!! Nor did I hear that he could he could withhold communion from me?? This is not minor doctrinal differences!
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elastigirl wrote:
Very interesting!
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FW Rez wrote:
From the site: “The largest selection in Reformed lifestlye products anywhere!” and “Lifestyle on mission to the glory of God.”
I guess reformed is now a lifestyle, not that there is anything wrong with that…
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
According to Mark Dever/9 Marxist the local church (i.e. pastors/elders) can ‘determine’ if you are saved or not by your ‘fruit’ (not spiritual fruit as the Bible would have it, but lock-step obedience to the pastors/elders dictates).
At my former 9Marxist/NeoCalvinist/John MacArthur-ite church lovely Christians were *disciplined before all* and *keyed out [Gram3’s TM for excommunication] for:
*wanting to leave that authoritarian church
*missing church
*missing Bible studies on work nights
*wanting a congregational vote
*disagreeing with the pastors/elders and asking any questions
*choosing your own friends and not permitting the pastors/elders to choose your friends
*not believing in Patriarchy/Complementarism
*not believing in Young Earth Creationism and that the world is 6,000 years old
[as Dee and Deb have noted the Hebrew word used in creation has 56 different meanings in Hebrew including ‘a long time’]
*what you fed your children
*what you brought to church potlucks
*what you wore
*the safety of children
*home decor [things from other countries, gifts]
*fraternizing with liberals, gays, people who were different than them
*not using hate speech
I was excommunicated for opposing the pastors/elders bringing a Megan’s List sex offender to church, membership, a position of leadership, access to children, inviting him to volunteer at a 5-day sports camp for children, and telling NO ONE.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I remember that scene. I bet similar scenes played numerous times in the Kremlin and Reichstag.
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Ken F wrote:
I can remember when the “Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy” T-shirts were all the rage here.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Apparently Mark Dever believes in a closed communion, for members in good-standing only. As people here have previously pointed out since Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. gets so many visitors for 9Marks that Dever’s wish for closed communion would insult the very people he’s trying to sell his ideas to.
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@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
It is incredibly scary to me because it has become the new normal for too many.
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Anonymous wrote:
This is very insightful. The problem is that effectiveness is not a measure of truth. Islam is very effective in addressing real problems. Hitler rose to power because he was able to address the real problems of the German people. Criminal gangs meet the real problems of their gang members. Drug dealers address the real problems of the drug users (after all, they could die without that next fix). Such a list is unending.
Addressing “real” problems doesn’t necessarily it right unless the end justifies the means. But the most important part of this discussion is the meaning of the word “real.” How “real” are the problems 9Marks addresses? Are they just as real as the “real” problem an abuser addresses by abusing?
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@ Lydia:
Saw it on the cover of Christianity Today when the YRR article was featured.
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Anonymous wrote:
I agree with church discipline also, and it is always, in every single circumstance without exception in the NT something for the entire church to practice, not a select group of elite to do and then foist as a fait accompli upon the church. That method is not biblical and I sincerely believe not of God. This is why I believe you’re enormously foolish to support Dever in much of anything, because the biblical model of church discipline is absolutely anathema to Dever’s paradigm.
What I would tell you, anonymous, is to repent, perhaps meet Jesus for the first time, and reject the poison you’ve been swallowing.
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Lydia wrote:
Heheh, even Paul notes more than once that he wasn’t much of a speaker.
As God tells us – He doesn’t look at the impressive outer appearance like people do, He’s looking at the heart.
“God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things–and the things that are not–to nullify the things that are,”
“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.”
Unschooled & ordinary – but these men HAD BEEN WITH JESUS.
THAT is what we need to see when we’re looking at ‘leaders’ – that they’ve been with Jesus.
Not whether:
-they throw a great conference with lots of goodies for the other leaders.
-they are entertaining on stage.
-they’ve written a gazillion books.
-they’ve coined a new ‘spiritual’ term to market.
-they rub elbows with the religious elite.
-they’ve repackaged and sold authoritarianism to the susceptible & gullible as THE answer to the church’s problems TODAY.
How can we know they’ve been with Jesus? They’ll focus on what Jesus did.
For the people:
-to preach the gospel to the poor
-to heal the brokenhearted
-to preach deliverance to the captives
-and recovering of sight to the blind
-to set at liberty them that are bruised,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
For the religious leaders
Rebukes for those:
-who disregard justice and the love of God.
-who love the most important seats in the synagogues.
-who love respectful greetings in the marketplaces.
-who are hypocrites.
-who load people with burdens too hard to carry.
-who will not even touch, much less carry themselves, the same burdens they put on others.
-who have taken away the key of knowledge.
-who won’t go in themselves, and hinder those who were going in.
-who kill and persecute anyone God sends to correct them.
I do not know of any of the elite religious leaders who do the above.
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@ Law Prof:
When the topic of church discipline was becoming All the Rage in the emerging Neo Cal movement, I started paying attention to its trajectory. One of the early gurus of this was Jay Adams who is also the father of nouthetic counseling. I realize that not all Neo cals are going to make these connections because they are immersed in 9marks and might have missed the earlier roots that revived what is basically a Puritan interpretation/ tradition in pracice. ( as if that isn’t scary enough)
Jay Adams was doing a lot of speaking on the subject back then at conferences so I found a podcast and listened. I am no scholar but I was aghast at how he added to the scripture to make it fit his agenda of church discipline. He literally added a step in Matthew 18 to take it to the elders before it is taken to the entire church. I am dead serious. He said it plain as day.
Ok, so what really upset me is no one challenged him during the Q&A. He was speaking at a conference for young pastors. I am chilled to the Bone when hundreds of young pastors do not challenge something that blatant and obvious. And this was probably 10 years ago.
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@ Law Prof:
The way Todd Wilhelm was treated by Mark Dever's extremely close colleague when he resigned from UCCD illustrates how unbiblical 9Marks really is.
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Lydia wrote:
I figured that out a few years ago at my ex-NeoCal church, on my own.
Yes, this extra step is also in Jay Adams’ book on church discipline.
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Law Prof wrote:
I don’t think the implication is necessary or useful
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@ Ken F:
Great points. My view is that the shallowness of the Seeker movement drove a lot of young people to what is really a pseudo-intellectual Neo Cal movement.
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@ Velour:
It’s unbelievable, isn’t it?
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@ Bill M:
Agreed. I have met Anonymous, and he is a sincere Christian.
Even though he's reformed, I still consider him to be a brother in Christ. 😉
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One of the problems that I have with 9 Marks and other Christian groups is that they never, ever ever examine their presuppositions. Let’s just take Mark’s word that “church discipline is in the Bible”. Who cares? So is stoning your adulterous wife, cooking food with human poop, cannibalising babies and all kinds of cool stuff. Why should we practice church discipline? I don’t have a problem with church discipline in concept – any social group has rules. But I do have a problem with lemmings who don’t think critically.
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@ Ted:
Amen Ted! Seems like the reformed boys overlooked most of these.
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Bill M wrote:
I said “perhaps” and I absolutely, positively stand behind it 100%, Bill. I think what we’re seeing here in Dever, Mahaney, YRR, et. al. is for the most part apostate. I look at the fruits and simply do not believe they love Jesus. Do. Not.
Not backing down from that.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
But what does *church discipline* actually mean? I thought when I signed a Membership Covenant at my ex-NeoCal/9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite church I was agreeing to be disciplined if I fell in to some grievous sin, such as sexual immorality that I needed rescue from.
But in these authoritarian churches it’s a crowbar used by the leaders and their friends against everyone else. It was like being in junior high.
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@ Velour:
I think what makes all of this power-trip stuff fly is the dream-come-true of jr. high redemption. men with leader hats get to regress and role play jr. high as powerful alpha males and full-fledged members of the in-crowd.
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elastigirl wrote:
Yes, and a lot of them had bad relationships with their own fathers (including my ex-pastor whom you know).
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Deb wrote:
If so, I consider him a sly and clever one. We know each other from The Outpost days.
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Law Prof wrote:
Some folks are more comfortable talking about fruit. But, That has really gone out of fashion, hasn’t it? I think one reason why that has gone away is that there is now more of a focus on correct Doctrine as being good fruit, not our actual behavior.
But, I do agree with you. One of the things I tell my kids is that I spent years in and out of just about every kind of organization you can imagine and I’ve seen some pretty bad stuff done to people. But nothing prepared me for what I witnessed as evil/cruelty done to people in the name of Jesus Christ by leaders.
I just cannot pass it off as “sinners, sin” as if they have no choice. This stuff is seriously harming people in many ways. In my view there is a powerful deception going on.
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Velour wrote:
Very depressing….
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Lydia wrote:
This why it is said that the church is the only organization that shoots its wounded…
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I repeat again…. This concept that M Devers, and his “flavor” think they hold the keys to our salvation is setting off all sorts of warning bells in my brain… Especially when connected with their authoritarian bent…. Thank G$d we have separation of church and state!!
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Totally agree.
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Deb wrote:
‘Love’ is not negative enough for leaders who want to intimidate with ‘membership contracts’, public shaming before the congregation, and enforced exposure to predators . . . these ‘leaders’ rule by fear and shaming, and ‘love’ has no place in their play-book. But I don’t get it how the people who join these ‘churches’ don’t run like hell when the horns begin to grow out of the leaders’ heads? How can a ‘leader’ be respected who has taken money to allow someone in who coddles pedophiles? I don’t get it because these members have children to protect, not to serve up as offerings to these cultic monsters. It’s unnatural. Unloving for sure, but where there is a rabid spirit that is not ‘of Christ’ introduced by leadership into a congregation, that IS something to fear.
Just ‘why’? (?)
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Lea wrote:
That article was absolutely disgusting. And the pugnacious responses from the author even more so.
Amos Love repeatedly and completely destroys the author’s assertions regarding the use of Matt 18 as the go-to proof text for his concept of ‘church discipline’ in the comments section.
.
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BL wrote:
Go Amos Love! He has repeatedly raised these points over at Spiritual Sounding Board
and reminded us all of these points.
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Christiane wrote:
Many members don’t run because it takes them time to get what’s going on. One spouse may be ready to leave and another may not be ready to leave. People have relationships that will in all likelihood be forever changed and severed once they leave these abusive churches. I compare it to a domestic violence victim leaving a batterer. She should leave, but is she emotionally ready to leave? It usually takes a lot of growth and planning to leave, and to do so safely and wisely.
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@ Christiane:
Oh, one more point: The pastors/elders in these churches are masters of manipulation and controlling the narrative. since people have seen them in respected roles throughout the church, teaching classes, etc., why wouldn’t they be believed when they spout lies about a church member and control the narrative? Members are intentionally NOT given the other side of the story.
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elastigirl wrote:
They get to be the teacher’s-pet bathroom monitors?
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Anonymous wrote:
Seems like you recognize they have a lot of problems.
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Anonymous wrote:
This would make a good inspirational meme-
Mark Dever:
Not everything he says is radioactive or toxic.
heehee, sorry…
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So: play starts in a few minutes’ time at Chester-le-Street. Will Alastair Cook make it past 19 this time?
#10000RunsInTestCricket
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bea wrote:
Excellent observation. That was exactly my diagnosis when I left CHBC. As much flack as “Anonymous” has gotten here in the comments, he(?) does have a point – not everyone in the New-C movement, not even all the leadership, are hypocrites. Many people – and I was one of them – genuinely believe that lax discipline, lack of strong theology, etc. are the root problems of the American church today, and must be dealt with. The problem with the 9 Marks system is, however, exactly what Bea just pointed out – it’s trying to accomplish by rules what is best (only?) possible by a move of the Spirit – and I say this as a total NON-charismatic. 😉 And without the Spirit, the rules are going to end up chaining people down, end up being used as tools for abuse, end up becoming the end rather than the means… end up exactly where SGC/CHBC/ad infinitum are today.
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Eeyore wrote:
Excellent analysis! Dever and gang are hindering the work of the Holy Spirit by imposing their 9Marks.
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Anonymous wrote:
Although even at the time, I thought his sermons were VERY short on grace. I often remarked then that CHBC and the church I had left to attend there would both be served very well if Dever and my old pastor switched pulpits for a month – my old church was too wealthy and too comfortable, whereas CHBC could stand to hear some Lutheranesque “You ARE a sinner, but Christ saves you anyways!” a bit more often…
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Anonymous wrote:
I would add that it seems to me the 9Marks movement IS a reaction – but not to the seeker movement or the prosperity movement, but rather to the emergent movement. Among other things, the emergent movement encouraged more time engaging our world and less time in the church subculture bubble and the deconstruction of institutional church hiearchy. The key word being “authority.” Instead of Christ is the head we are the body, it’s Pastor is the head and will tell the body what to do.
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I write this with such sadness as my husband has been a pastor for thirty five years and during that time, so much change has taken place. Years ago one could not be a senior pastor until about 45 years of age with experience as associate pastor required, as well as with age generally comes wisdom. Now at 55 you are too old for ministry. Also, the Pastor visited the sick, preached, and cared for the flock. Now the Pastor is the CEO of a corporation where money and people are needed to keep this machine going. Many pastors are big fish in a very little pond. The theology reinforces their personality…which is Type A, and that personality are the only one that are wanted in most churches. The love, joy, peace, patience, has been replaced with high energy, control and manipulation, and growth is in many ways happening because people are leaving smaller churches to go to larger mega ones. My heart is grieved.
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lynn wrote:
What you write is mirroring our culture in general
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I agree with your comment Jeffrey, I just did not think the culture would affect the church so much, I thought it should be the other way around. Jesus was very counter-culture of his day.
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@ lynn:
This is happening here in the United States as well. Much harm is being done in the body of Christ by young authoritarian pastors.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Answer: no. Cook’s gone for 15.
#9995
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Velour wrote:
In this system tithes + showing up + obeying your leaders = indulgences?
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@ Deb:
I predict that eventually it will become a negative growth cycle. Most growth seems to be from within the ranks. Those who already identify as Christian. Purpose Driven Life with it’s 5 purposes turned me off church. I won’t go back to “9 marks” . I can’t see anyone signing up from a non Christian background. I think Dever has realized this with his “don’t try this at home, kids” message. No new people + attrition of disaffected= eventual collapse.
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@ Lea:
Well here is another example of how prescriptive 9Marks is. It reminds me of the Pharisees whom Jesus upbraided for placing intolerable, unnecessary, and unlawful burdens on the backs of the ordinary man and woman. It is legalism gone mad.
Pay particular attention to the advice on how to deal with egalitarians – essentially “repent or be disciplined or excommunicated”.
https://9marks.org/article/4-ways-to-categorize-complaints-in-the-church/
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Further sporting news:
10th seed Petra Kvitova (who, by coincidence, is the spitting image of one of the Inghams holiday reps we met in Mayrhofen a couple of years ago) has just been bagelled in the opening set by world no. 108 Shelby Rogers. Andy Murray is a set and a break up against wee Croatian laddie* Ivo Karlovic.
Cricket: Compton has gone for a rather jittery 9 off 45 balls. His replacement, Joe Root, has 10 off 9 balls – a rather more positive start, you’d have to say. Meanwhile Hales is on 45 as we begin the last over before lunch.
IHTIH
* I’m joking, of course – Karlovic stands 6’11” tall (and is notoriously difficult to lob) – check out this twitter fotie from Annabel Croft interviewing him from a stepladder! As a matter of interest, he is also – at 37 – the oldest man to reach the third round at Roland Garros since Jimmy Connors.
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@ lowlandseer:
Thought police. They have their own brand of political correctness. Even if a member wondered about mutuality, they would not dare bring it up at church. The environment is stifling. There is no spiritual growth or iron sharping iron. It is all conformity.
One just wants to throw the windows open and let light and fresh air in for people in these systems but it doesn’t work that way. They are in it because it provides something for them.
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@ Jack:
9Marks has marketed itself to pastors and wannabes. All their books are instruction manuals for those in church leadership.
Now that we are starting to see the underbelly of 9Marks, I believe it's just a matter of time before this man-made movement fizzles.
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lowlandseer wrote:
Whoa! Baptism is an opinion and egalitarianism is a conviction? What?
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Law Prof wrote:
Law Prof, isn’t that a bit harsh? Anonymous has been giving a very sober and practical report on 9Marks, from first-hand experience. If you think he’s too generous to Mark Dever, please don’t question his faith in Jesus.
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Lea wrote:
That is essentially Carl Trueman’s take. And he is complementarian.
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Gram3 wrote:
This blows my mind.
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Gram3 wrote:
Although now that I’m thinking about it, is trueman Presbyterian? Maybe that’s why a system that came out of a ‘baptist’ church now thinks that your different opinion on baptism is no big deal. Just go on your meery way. They can sell to more people.
But if you think women are equal you are divisive and hurting the church. Insanity.
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Gram3 wrote:
Baptism does not serve to reinforce the caste system as comp Doctrine does. If comp is an “opinion” the entire caste system is in danger including the idea that they are specially appointed by God to teach and lead others. Some are softer comps than others. In some traditions, women can be Deacons and Witnesses but they cannot sit in any judicial decision making capacity in the church. Even though Paul mentions that women will also judge the angels.
Comp is an essential for them. If it is allowed to be an opinion then the whole top down system is in danger.
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@ Lydia:
This would be an excellent topic for a post 🙂
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Lea wrote:
I wonder how the New Calvinists will fare when they cast their preferences, opinions convictions, and attitudes at the foot of Jesus on judgment day?
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Gram3 wrote:
Gram3:
I agree with you totally about top-down policy be anathema to Baptists. We believe in autonomy, which is an extension of the Priesthood of the Believer. 9 Marks believes in that – to my knowledge.
Sovereign Grace Churches (SGM) does not.
Where I believe that Mohler and Dever do a good job is on the topics that have been central to Christian teaching throughout the centuries. Take the Apostles Creed, for example. I believe that you could take any of the doctrines mentioned in that creed, and I believe that Mohler and Dever would each do an excellent job of presenting that.
Where I part company with Dever (am not sure of Mohler – because I have not heard him speak on these topics) is the membership and church discipline stuff.
There is also a cultural aspect to some of the Reformed culture that really bothers me. I was asked above, but our church is more reformed on soteriology, but not totally or truly reformed. We have rejected that.
And because we started completely outside the orb of 9 Marks and all of that, we don’t have that in our DNA. There are doctrines that we would share and agree with, and therefore would be seen as being in affinity with them. But there are significant areas of disagreement.
Also, the unqualified defense of Mahaney and SGM is another area where I strongly disagree with Mohler and Dever. It does not make sense to me. Even with all of the possible explanations I have heard, it still does not make sense.
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@ Ted:
For me, it is not so much questioning faith but concern they have a different Jesus. At some point in their quest to control and deceive people, it is wise to at least acknowledge that possibility.
Honestly, I don’t hear a lot about Jesus Christ from the Neo Cal movement. They tend to focus on their version of the Old Testament God. It is much easier to manipulate into a tyrannical despot who implemented a human caste system and call it love. Paul is their go- to New Testament savior.
However, A focus on Jesus Christ as the full representation of God makes all that impossible to sell unless He is positioned as a lesser God in the Trinity. That is where ESS became crucial to keep it all up.
These days I never assume we are talking about the same Jesus when I am talking to certain segments of the Christian population. Jesus Christ is either the full representation of God or He is not.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Jeffrey:
I agree with you about the whole “Keys” thing.
Churches with hierarchies believe that. And what Dever and Leeman teach about that is that the Church, not the pastor, holds those keys, and those keys are communion and membership in the fellowship.
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Anonymous wrote:
Oh. My. Word. You are protected here so I will back off but this is Barbra Streisand.
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Law Prof wrote:
Law Prof:
Wow!
Unbelievable.
Do you really think this way and relate to people like this?
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Law Prof wrote:
There is no doubt that the multitude ensnared by New Calvinism need a Come-to-Jesus time in their lives. A young reformer at an SBC church plant in my area said this in a sermon “This is one prayer you should never pray: ‘Jesus, forgive me of my sins’.” That, of course, was delivered to those assumed to be the elect. When the NC bubble breaks, one of the greatest mission fields on the planet will be among the disillusioned 20s-40s who wake up to the deception.
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Deb wrote:
Thanks, Deb and Bill M.
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siteseer wrote:
Yes. I do. Thanks for noticing!
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Eeyore wrote:
Eyeore:
That is a really wise hypothetical suggestion, and drives at one of the points of my original comment.
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@ Lea:
Trueman is OPC, IIRC, and is a professor at Westminster Seminary Philadelphia. I think he correctly observes that the meaning and mode of baptism is a dividing line for the local church. He wonders why the YRR are more concerned with “complementarianism” than they are with baptism. On Trueman’s part, I think his view is shaped more by the importance he places on baptism rather than being wishy-washy on “complementariansm.” I think the YRR make baptism less important because they are more concerned about building their movement across the spectrum of the conservative church. “Complementarianism” is a bridge while baptism is a wall for the Gospel Glitterati’s advance. For them, Female Subordination is dogma and essential to the Gospel. Trueman does not share that view.
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Ted wrote:
Ted:
I appreciate your thoughts and support.
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Anonymous wrote:
You have received a lot of pushback on your comments, so I appreciate your willingness to engage. From the perspective of those of us who are alarmed by 9Marks’ teaching, your POV appears to ignore the poison in their teaching. Would you be willing to give your kids a drink of water on a hot day that contains a bit of arsenic? How much arsenic is tolerable before the whole cup of water must be discarded lest the children be poisoned?
I recognize that you have repeatedly said that you disavow some of their weirder teaching and their defense of Mahaney. The problem is that these things come bundled with their teaching on the Apostle’s Creed. It is what they add to the Gospel that makes their doctrines so toxic. And they have elevated their distinctives to the level of non-negotiable dogma. In other words, they have essentially added their distinctives to the Apostle’s Creed since their distinctives are viewed as Gospel necessities.
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Lydia wrote:
Barbra Streisand believes in the Priesthood of the Believer? I am so glad to know that 🙂
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Anonymous wrote:
Having been in a church heavily influenced by 9Marks, I can assure you that the Priesthood of *every* believer was never taught when I was present, and I was present when the doors were open. Mohler worked to change the BFM to muddy that point, IMO. I think that they believe in a de facto priestly class though, obviously, as Baptists they cannot come out and say that. Everything must be carefully couched. Also, it is important to note that what an organization *formally* embraces and what it *informally* promotes or suppresses may be very different things.
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Anonymous wrote:
That may be what they say, but practically speaking, the pastor holds the keys because the elders are carefully vetted yes-men and the congregation receives recommendations from the elders. In other words, the pastor’s authoritarian ruling is laundered through an elders meeting and an essentially pro forma congregational vote in order to maintain the convenient fiction that it is the church which holds the keys. And that is *assuming* the “keys” are what they say they are. I think they are gravely mistaken about that.
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Gram3 wrote:
Thanks Gram3!
Yes, I think that the point of disagreement is how to gauge the level of danger in these doctrines regarding Membership and Church Discipline and the “Keys” interpretation and such.
You are right to note that I disagree with them. And you are right to note that the way I would view them more charitably than many readers here.
That seems to be the dividing point.
I understand that several readers on here have had bad experiences at the hands of these churches, and other churches. I have not experienced that, fortunately. I my life, I have been in following types of churches – High-Church Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist. I learned something valuable at every one of these churches, but I have seen imbalances and incorrect things taught at all of these churches.
So I guess it’s one’s experience and perhaps human personality that drives different convictional feelings toward different people.
I can appreciate someone’s perspective and acknowledge their feelings, but I may not share them.
Thanks for elucidating the dividing line here.
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@ Lydia:
I agree with you here, Lydia. But I’m not sure it applies to my comment to Law Prof. I don’t see Anonymous as someone who is trying to control or deceive people–rather, he (or she) is telling us firsthand about 9Marks and how they may be doing that.
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Gram3 wrote:
I agree totally with your observation.
9 Marks would criticize our church because we have more of a modified elder rule polity, whereas 9 Marks has a congregational rule.
But you have pointed out that is in word only. You will recall that recently Jonathan Leeman wrote a post on how Capitol Hill was doing away with a requirement for a certain number of lay elders, as opposed to staff elders. This meant that power would be more consolidated in the staff.
And Leeman also recently wrote about the limitations of congregational rule at Capitol Hill. It was basically the ability to do certain things, but not to do many things that one associates with congregational rule, as is in most Baptist churches.
So – the official teaching is the that local church holds the “Keys”. But the practice is that the pastor is very powerful.
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous, I’m also in an American Baptist Church, very conservative, and we’ve recently gone through a process, very 9Marksian, to move toward an elder-led (male-only) complementarian government. Thank God the proposed by-laws failed for lack of a 3/4 vote, although it was a majority.
The more I hear about “The Authority of the Local Church” (what I call the Sixth Sola) the more I understand that “The Priesthood of the Believer” has been flushed down the toilet.
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Gram3 wrote:
This has been a long standing objection to T4G, particularly among Presbyterians but also some of the more traditional Reform Baptists. I can’t remember but I think Tom Ascol even raised the point.
Dever answered this back in 2005 or 2006. His statement was that while pedobaptists held wrong views about Baptism they otherwise had a track record of being Biblically faithful whereas egalitarians did not.
That’s pure drivel as just a half mile away from SBTS you’ll find LPTS, which is for the most part flaming liberal. On the other hand, the Assemblies of God denomination, which ordains women, is hardly a liberal organization.
The claim simply doesn’t bear scrutiny. However your average 25 year old seminary student will lap it up. They really don’t bother to check basic facts.
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Ted wrote:
Ted:
That is interesting. I did not know that the American Baptist Church was going through that.
I have said for a long time (though very few people seem to want to entertain the idea – either Reformed or not Reformed) that what has generated a renewed interest in Reformed Soteriology (though not Reformed in all things – Baptist Churches, for example, can never be reformed) have been cultural developments related to Evangelical efforts at evangelism.
There is an increasing divide between the secular and the sacred. And there seems to be resistance to many of the “programs” and approaches tried by evangelicals.
I believe this has created a desire to understand why that is. And I believe that the younger generation has discovered and more closely examined doctrines related to the sovereignty of God.
In a previous generation, if evangelism wasn’t working, there must be a problem with the approach being used. Hence, we get the seeker movement and other countless ideas about how to make a more effective pitch.
The younger generation often sees this as craven and ineffective. And they find some alternate explanations in Reformed Soteriology.
On the “Priesthood of the Believer”, I tend to believe that traditional congregational evangelicals are reaching out to try and bring better order to the church. I believe it is that simple.
I know that when we started our church in 1992, that we all came from traditional congregationalism that was highly politicized and dysfunctional. It basically gave the loudest and most obnoxious and uninformed person in the room the right to hold everyone else hostage.
I have come down on the side of saying that when it comes to polity, the NT gives very little guidance. I believe that elder rule, congregational rule etc. are all acceptable options. All can be done abusively. All can be successful.
The goal is to recognize the Priesthood of each believer, but also to provide a structure where people are heard but there is order at the same time.
Much of this is dependent on things that cannot be written down. But exist in the spirit of people. It’s a very hard thing to script.
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Anonymous wrote:
That made me smile. I have also been within the realm of the Presbyterians and Baptists. I agree with you about strengths and weaknesses. But that is not the point of the objections to the dogma being taught by 9Marks and the Gospel Glitterati. The point we are trying to get across is that they are preaching another gospel which is not The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are not talking about nuances of doctrine. Is a cup of water with a bit of arsenic in it a cup of water or is it a cup of poison? We are saying it is a cup of poison. They are attacking the Gospel by denying the full authority of the Son, by denying the freedom in Christ of over half of their congregations, and they are denying the power of the Holy Spirit. They use deceptive language and propaganda techniques. Friendly dissent makes one into an enemy of the “Gospel.”
Those are toxic to a body, and I believe it is only a matter of time before the signs of the body being poisoned are impossible to ignore. For some of this, that point has been reached. For others, it may take someone close to them being given the 9Marks and Gospel Glitterati treatment to wake them up.
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@ Gram3:
Better words were never spoken.
What irks me about the top-down stuff where we are the peons and they are the know-it-all’s, is that a large number of pastors are recent seminary grads. Not only do many of them have little knowledge of Scripture other than parroting back what they were told in class, but most of them have never 1. dealt with the death of a parent, or a baby, or a spouse; 2. had the life experience to understand how people can “con” other people; 3.had licensed training in counseling; 4. held down a real job. Most can get their kids’ Christian schooling paid for by the congregation while we peons have to pay $7-10K/year to send kids to Christian school. And sometimes if we use public school they are looked down upon, but peons live in the real world. The good young ministers are few and far between.
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Gram3 wrote:
Since I was the one who brought up Fukushima and “radioactive fish,” I wanted to try to expand on my earlier comment. The above quote from Gram3 gets at the core of what I should have said.
In my way of thinking, this is not merely about doctrinal statements (which are symptoms), but underlying presuppositions and paradigms (which are systems). Basically, all Christian traditions hold to the Apostles’ Creed, so that isn’t much of an indicator of anything except perhaps adherence to the broadest possible threshold of “orthodoxy.” It’s the other stuff where we find the presuppositions played out, as they build a paradigm system of beliefs and values, of organizational strategies and structures, of cultural lifestyles of modes of collaboration styles. All those items are in a paradigm, even if most of them are out of sight, hidden underneath behaviors.
Picking up the Fukushima analogy, if the presuppositions are toxic, the entire fish is infused with poison. We may think we’ll be okay if we eat the meat, and spit out the bones as obvious choke spokes — but we’re still ingesting the radioactive assumptions that will poison our paradigm.
It is a legitimate critical thinking tool to “work backwards” from behaviors to figure out what those presuppositions are, and this is part of what survivor blogs do. A large number of case studies in spiritual abuse show up on such blogs, and there are crowd-sourced MRIs to inspect through various layers of details to assess what happened and why. This is where we’ve seen toxic patterns show up across many different organizations and doctrinal systems.
Back to 9Marks: In terms of the wonky doctrines about covenants and memberships and complementarianism and such like, in my assessment, their underlying way of processing information is to divide everything while analyzing it into categories by separating this from that, men from women, those supposedly supposed to be in authority from those supposedly supposed to be in unconditional submission, etc. That hyper-analytical processing style links to a divisionary mindset that affects everything, not just the bones we see that need to be picked out or spit out.
This mindset is why it makes sense to me to question the idea that the Church holds the keys in terms of discipline, because functionally speaking, the leaders of the local church, being those in authority and thus to be submitted to be subordinate laypeople, hold and turn the keys. If you look only at the surface doctrine of the Church holding the keys, that seems to resonate with Scripture and be truly biblical. However, if you look at the entire system — and the behaviors of those who are its followers — the surface statement is contradicted when the elders act as if they are the Church. Looking at the ways adherents seem to function (as seen in multiple case studies posted on survivor blogs) the overseers in effect replace the Holy Spirit’s role in discernment and decision-making, and they replace Jesus Christ by assuming the role of mediator between God and people.
Final thought: If we can identify wonky doctrines, that’s good. But again, I’d suggest those are only symptomatic indicators of a deeper endemic system problem with presuppositions.
Anyway, I hope that makes sense and helps explain a systems point of view, and why I’d suggested thinking about Fukushima-ized fish.
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Anonymous wrote:
Even frank Arminians believe in the sovereignty of God. The question is how God exercises his sovereignty. God is the only non-contingent being. How can he not be sovereign? Sovereignty does not demand control-freakery on the part of God. So, I think we are really talking about is what God’s sovereignty necessarily entails.
I absolutely agree with you about the Seeker Sensitive movement. However, I believe that the YRR kiddos have jumped headlong into the fire without thinking about the consequences of that and without considering other possible solutions to being in the frying pan of late 20th century evangelicalism. And I know a few of them…
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Anonymous wrote:
Don’t you find this very deceptive? I would go as far as saying it is, and it is not a proper way to lead (by deception). They then teach that it is “biblical” which is a further deception. For me, this disqualifies these men from being considered elders.
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Gram3 wrote:
[Boldface added.]
This entire quote from Gram3 captures the espresso of what my wordy explanation above on symptoms versus systems was trying to get at. When behavior diminishes the face value of stated doctrines, or outrightly contradicts it, there is a system problem — and there is also a problem with transparency and truth-telling.
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@ Deb:
The irony is the 9 marks crowd craves an audience & has tried to soften the church discipline angle. Purpose Driven also had a pastor training component if I recall correctly. It seemed a softer sell than 9 marks. I wasn’t invested so never went through the program. How any of these authoritarian churches intend on increasing or retaining membership baffles me.
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R2 wrote:
Their very peculiar form of logic is that liberal denominations ordain women. Therefore, conservative denominations cannot ordain women. Obviously there are some logical leaps there.
Another path is that ordination of women resulted from a denial of inerrancy. Therefore, ordination of women leads to a denial of inerrancy which then leads nowhere good. More logical oddities. Never is any consideration given to the fact that people can reach the same conclusion–the full participation and freedom of women within the church–via very different paths and for very different reasons.
Logic is not their strong suit though their Ph.D.s were supposedly earned.
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Gram3 wrote:
Al Mohler refers to God’s plan of salvation as not an essential doctrine to fuss about in his “theological triage”. He believes if Christians (of whatever flavor) can agree on essential tenets of faith (e.g., the virgin birth), secondary and tertiary things like soteriology are not that essential and we shouldn’t be fussing about them. As I read the Bible, I see God’s plan of salvation woven throughout the Scripture as THE essential to grasp – it is not simply a nuance of doctrine! Mohler’s rhetoric is designed to calm the SBC masses about reformed theology to buy time as he continues to champion Calvinization of the denomination.
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Eeyore wrote:
There is another huge issue I have with their system and that is the “accountability” model.
When James 5 mentions confessing our sins to one another, I believe the message is clearly about being genuine, being open about it and owning it when we offend someone; not pretending to be perfect or to be someone we’re not.
These guys have turned that simple statement into a weird system of bondage where one person is beholden to another human being and made to confess their deepest, darkest secrets to that person or persons. This is so unhealthy and destructive! I believe this may be a big part of what keeps people stuck in these systems, the fact that there are others who own a part of you that no other person should. It’s a source of pressure and downright blackmail. It is the shepherding error all over again.
I honestly believe the accountability model is not only will-worship and using the flesh to try to accomplish spiritual growth, but I believe it is satanic.
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Gram3 wrote:
As I noted in an earlier comment, New Calvinism is characterized by “flawgic” not logic.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Amen
I always got the sense a lot of these guys have massive psychological problems they’re rationalizing away. Their zeal is just baptized anger at some core wound.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
This, totally–my experience with authoritarian systems is that a question to them is not a question–it is filtered by their ‘systemic thinking’ to be rebellion. A critique of their way of doing things, no matter how mild or respectful, is filtered by their ‘systemic thinking’ be to slander, or gossip and slander. Words no longer have objective meaning; the meaning is assigned by their system–it is impossible to get a fair, objective hearing.
In a way, their way of thinking or system of thinking is an auto-immune disease in the body–they attack often times healthy people in the church because healthy, spiritually aware people often question heavy-handed, non-transparent, authoritarian leadership decisions.
I no longer have confidence that authoritarian leadership paradigms can be corrected–it must be excised in order to have a healthy leadership. Since the authoritarians hold the power of excision, it will happen in a healthy way very rarely. Thus, the need for Pound Sand Ministries. When people I care about come my way describing engagement with an authoritarian church system, I tell them to run for their lives–
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Gram3 wrote:
Unfortunately what is now clear to you and me is not clear to almost everyone still within these “churches”. I’ve heard many a metaphor used to assert the need to spread the gospel, “intervene to save the perishing!!”. I find it ironic that those who wish to save others can’t see themselves drowning in an abusive Christian sub-culture.
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Gram3 wrote:
Scripture speaks much about God’s sovereignty. Scripture speaks much about human responsibility. They work together in a way that is beyond the comprehension of mere man. To put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him. We don’t need to adhere to a complex systematic theology to come to Christ; we come by childlike faith. The Gospel (the real one) is easy enough for a child to understand. Whosoever will may come.
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Anonymous wrote:
Oops. It was another commenter, not you, who said that he was with an American Baptist Church.
As a denomination, I don’t think ABC-USA is going through a 9Marks challenge, only individual churches, and we’re all over the spectrum, liberal to fundamentalist.
Yes, exactly. And that, I think, is what has been driving a move toward authoritarianism in my church and others. Same-sex marriage, the Boy Scouts’ new policy to allow gay members (our church had hosted the Scouts, but no more because of that) etc, have caused churches to circle the wagons and crack down on sin. It’s not going well.
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R2 wrote:
Great way to put it. I know YRR pastors whose fathers and grandfathers were SBC “traditional” pastors. They saw the way their families were treated by ungodly deacon boards and have struck back with “baptized anger” to reform the system … New Calvinism has been a perfect vehicle to vent their misplaced passion. As a 60+ year non-Calvinist Southern Baptist, I have considerable concerns about the YRR rebellion and their authoritarian elder-rule church polity. But, the old system of populating deacon bodies with unspiritual men and governing church with unregenerate congregations also has its flaws.
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Jack wrote:
I am not sure what you mean by soften the “discipline angle” because they have promoted it a lot, bringing it up in the most unusual places. I’ve visited many of their church websites and their documents are full of submission and discipline. Are some now beginning to camouflage it?
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
I like that analogy, probably because I have a deranged immune system, and it is not good at all. And probably because I fancy Gramp3 and myself as healthy questioners.
I also agree with R2 that at least some of these men have seriously disordered thinking and perceptions. I am not a psych-anything but I am nearly certain that one of these guys is NPD. He is colder than ice but puts on a warm and friendly mask that only falls when he is crossed and behind closed doors. He rules *his* elder board and staff with fear because more than a few have been purged.
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@ BL:
What would you say were the 9 (or whatever number) marks of the shepherding movement? Is there a way to sum it up? I can’t seem to get my head around it. I don’t know if there is a CliffNotes version, or not.
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elastigirl wrote:
I’ll say. Jesus even taught a parable about guys like these.
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@ Cousin of Eutychus:
I couldn’t help thinking of the Borg Collective when you described the conversation with your old friend, and your description of his mindset.
It sounds as if he has been assimilated.
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@ Bill M:
Just going by the post, with Dever stating that churches not implement discipline yet and the Don’t Be a 9 Marxist video. Doesn’t sound like church discipline has gone a bit off. Maybe softening wasn’t the right word.
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@ Jack:
Meant to say “sounds like church discipline has gone a bit off the rails”
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@ Eeyore:
People forget two things in this system,
1. Pastors are sinful…Mark Dever and CJ Mahaney are just as jacked up as other people. But the rules are only applying to the people in the bottom.
2. Also people are broken and things work over a lifetime. The way many of these people look at sanctification is jacked up.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/26/you-are-going-to-fail-make-mistakes-and-fall-because-you-are-human-some-thoughts-on-evangelical-sanctification/
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Another very prominent characteristic of authoritarian leadership is that their attempts at correction and discipline often devolve into inflicting punishment; they are seeking vengeance rather than correction in love. My last go-round (I have been banished from two authoritarian church systems in my 43 years in the Kingdom) was surreal.
Elders in these type of systems imprint onto their denominational or extra-church leaders rather than Jesus. I was always creeped out by the shaved heads in the church leadership of SGM churches. But is it is the attitudes more than appearance (though the appearance ought to have made people wonder) that are dangerous.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
From 2 Tim 3: 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. (emphasis added)
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Exactly. You would not get very far in fishing without any bait. The hook must be baited with something not just palatable to the fish but inviting, alluring. What lurks under that bait is the purpose of the whole exercise, the hook.
Of course every false teaching contains enough truth to snare the unwary, otherwise it would not progress very far. There is no reason to look to Dever for some acceptable teachings that can easily be found elsewhere without the underlying hook.
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elastigirl wrote:
They view pewishioners as ‘dumb, directionless, & defenseless.” They do not view themselves as also being sheep – so they do not equate themselves as dumb, directionless, & defenseless.
So it is their job to control those sheep – tell them what to think, tell them where to go.
How you view someone guides and determines how you treat them. Their view of the parishioners flavors throughout the whole of what they say and do.
They think they are doing what’s best for the pewishioners. But their low view of the pewishioners and their high view of themselves is a sure guarantee that they will abuse.
C. S Lewis explained it well:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
That’s describes the former shep/disc leaders and today’s current leaders.
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refugee wrote:
Refugee, your analogy totally makes sense; one of the things I tried to emphasize with the leadership that struggled with my questions is that unity does not necessarily mean uniformity. When I look at 9 Marks or SGM, I see uniformity in behavior as the goal rather than a unity in love.
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@ Anonymous:
I really appreciate your commenting here. SGM and being invited to a SG church in the DC area (Redeemer Arlington) helped justify atheism in a faith crisis. All the scandal and issues hemorrhaging out of SGM was stunning. SGM and former SGM churches have deep systemic problems. When I was seeking forgiveness for my faith crisis the only person who rejected me was a CGL from Redeemer Arlington. I also noticed issues with Redeemer’s leadership as well. While nice, they seemed to not know what forgiveness and repentance is. They seem to think as long you say the right word but not mean or imply it…well that is fine. In my case I needed the guy to retract a false accusation and he refused to do that. I have him as many outs as I could because I wanted to get this issue resolved for his sake and mine.
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@ Anonymous:
If you ever make it out to the Washington, D.C. area I would love to buy you coffee and chat.
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Gram3 wrote:
Well, what do I know, here I thought Jesus’ prophecy to Peter in Matthew 16:16-20 (“whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven”) was fulfilled in Acts chapter 10…
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
This is why someone who claimed to love me turned around and claimed I was a threat to his family. He couldn’t deal with the questions and was threatened by them. Thus an Air Force Officer had to use his position and claim I was a threat to his family and how nervous he was around me. This happened at work, and he took aim at my name, reputation and more. Because of that I learned why rape is a serious issue in the US military. Its about power and control.
Many people in these churches are insecure and frightened about questions. Questions cause harm. Actually if I took their POV and didn’t ask questions I never would have pushed back from Mormonism earlier in my life.
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OT Comment crash! I’m in a conversation with someone and I need a quote. Where is the quote that says if you get the comp thing wrong you get the Gospel wrong? I’ve tried searching and cannot find it. Does anyone have that link and who said it? I’m thinking Piper? Thank you!
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Deb wrote:
You have just described the church we left, which, oddly enough, was not a 9Marks church. Though towards the end they were passing around the “Church Elder” book.
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous, you have shared that your church does not actually accept or follow a large part of 9marks or Dever’s teaching, nor do you, personally, agree with much of it. I am confused; what exactly are you defending about 9marks? And why?
Anonymous wrote:
Have you looked into the bad experiences others have had and empathized with those persons? Have you connected the results to the teachings? Do you see these results as evidence of the fruit the teachings bear or do you see them as just some random aberrations? Surely, you do not need to suffer personally before you can recognize the errors that lead to others’ suffering? I mean no offense in asking this, I am confused as to what exactly you are trying to communicate.
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ION:
Dr Henry Heimlich (now aged 96) yesterday saved a woman from choking using, naturally, the famous Manoeuvre that he invented. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada.
IHTIH
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Sallie Borrink wrote:
https://9marks.org/article/why-complementarianism-is-crucial-to-discipleship/
Here’s an article I just read. Maybe not the one you are looking for, but maddening, all the same!
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Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for offering your perspective. I’m glad to know that more and more people are listening to the experiences of 9Marx and their victims.
Anonymous wrote:
“Not everything he says is toxic”… Not exactly a ringing endorsement…
My own opinion of the man: He’s a hopeless hypocrite. He’s broken his own precious 9 marks by helping Mahaney to run from the All-Important church discipline, and by giving him a new pulpit. And if Dever’s a hypocrite, why listen to him at all?
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Max wrote:
That low rumble Nick is probably hearing now is Charles Spurgeon going into hyper-rotation in his grave…
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Nancy2 wrote:
That’s not the one I was thinking of, but it will work. Thank you so much!
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@ Sallie Borrink:
Sally, on this page http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/04/26/complementarianism-a-primary-doctrine-at-together-for-the-gospel/ check out Piper’s comments esp “If you do the kind of gymnastics that I think you have to do in order to escape Ephesians 5, you’re gonna get the Gospel wrong.” I know there are others I can’t think of now. Owen Strachan said the gospel has “a complementarian shape.” HTH
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@ Ted:
Words are not praxis. It just kind of irks me when i know there is deception going on.
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
I have read your story and am sorry for all the trouble you have experienced in church. Yikes.
I have a relative who was in a church here in town that is Baptist but follows a lot of 9 Marks teaching. The pastor has been so good to him and has helped disciple him. But due to all of the membership and church discipline stuff, when my relative moved to DC a few months ago, he chose not to affiliate with a 9 Marks church. He is going to an Anglican Church – in Arlington, I believe.
I am going to try and get to DC this summer to see my relative. When I do I will DEFINITELY put you on my list, and we’ll get together.
Thanks for asking. I would really enjoy getting to meet you.
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Bridget wrote:
I saw a video of him recently, teaching from one of the epistles. The guy sure yells a lot.
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@ Sallie Borrink:
http://www.dennyburk.com/why-complementarianism-is-a-gospel-issue/
Here’s another one. Includes a JP video.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
That comment brought to mind a much earlier (and possibly even worse) chapter from Japanese history. Namely, Minamata disease. Ordinary people poisoned and sickened over decades, from eating shellfish and sea life contaminated with mercury, courtesy of industrial pollution. And ignored by the greedy and heartless executives at a local corporation.
That reminds me even more of 9Marx.
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siteseer wrote:
It looks like ’empathy’ IS a huge problem in the 9 Marks world where victims complain and are persecuted for it, and those who are in leadership make jokes about the victims. Lack of empathy is a sign of emotional immaturity or worse; in a Christian, lack of empathy for suffering is a sign that the Holy Spirit has ‘left the building’.
inability to ‘connect the dots’ between man-made rules and the consequences of suffering …. we could also call this ‘turning a blind eye’ because it’s not our ox who is gored,
only in a real Christian community of faith, when one suffers, all respond in solidarity to support the one who is in pain
A Christian community takes the hurting ones into their heart and surrounds them with care;
a 9 Marks community ????? Apparently if the man-made rules are applied abusively, a 9 Marks community is capable of great cruelty which Anonymous knows has happened but feels aloof from as he was not scathed personally ….. wow, that alone is telling
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siteseer wrote:
Thank you! 🙂
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BL wrote:
Recently, I started watching Season 10 of “Bones”. The first few episodes pick up where the previous season left off, with Brennan, Booth and the rest facing a conspiracy, one that reaches into the FBI itself, and relying on blackmail and murder. When they finally have one of the head honchos semi-cornered, he goes into manifesto mode, holding forth on how democracy is threat to order, how the ignorant peons need to be controlled by the elite for their own good, because that’s how the Founding Fathers really wanted it.
Nauseating to listen to. Even worse to hear it from pastors and so-called leaders like Dever.
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Lydia wrote:
Agreed. It drives me wild. There’s a lot about the 9Marks movement that you know is wrong, but it’s hard to put your finger on—like trying to pin a jellyfish to the wall. They keep using works and calling it grace, law and calling it gospel.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Thank you!
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siteseer wrote:
Siteseeer:
Thanks for asking.
First, just to clarify again, I know absolutely nothing of SGM or Mahaney other than what I have read. I have read the survivor blogs, and it sounds awful. My take on it is it is a lot like the Independent Baptist Fundamentalism that I experienced from about age 19 to 22. They were truly sincere people, and were trying to do the right thing. They believed the Bible and essential Christian doctrines. But they went to seed on the doctrine of separation and legalism.
I still have wonderful memories from that time in my life, and I admire the good part of what they did, but not the bad. And I think the bad was so bad that I would not want to organize a church around that.
My perception is the SGM is a lot like that – only a newer, cooler version, with Pentecostalism thrown in.
I say all that to again distinguish my experience and feelings. I have no experience with or feelings for SGM.
I separate them from 9 Marks. So it’s important for me that people understand that.
Many people will disagree with this, too, but I was a big supporter of the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. That does not mean that I support everything that went on in the name of that movement. It means that I supported an intentional effort to see that the SBC seminaries were teaching in accordance with essential Christian doctrine and the SBC’s Confession of Faith – the Baptist Faith and Message.
I met Al Mohler through that before he became President of Southern. I am supportive of the changes at Southern. But again, as in the case of my time with IBF, it would be a mistake to assume that I agree with everything that goes on there or with every cultural aspect of Southern. I do not understand or agree with it’s connection to Mahaney and that baffles me.
My exposure to Mohler and Dever has been in the context of the recovery and promotion of essential Christian doctrine and what I believe to be the proper view of Scripture.
So, when 9 Marks promotes things that relate to that, I am in full support.
When 9 Marks supports its particular brand of Membership or Discipline theories, I am not supportive of that.
I hope that this makes sense to you. I realize I have opened another can of worms but discussing other matters, but it may help you understand how I have met people in one context and enjoyed and appreciated what they do, but do not agree with them in other ways.
I also count among dear friends people who disagree vehemently with some of the views of Reformed theology and the Membership and Discipline issues.
I also count among dear friends people who are very liberal theologically. I believe it is awful to fail to recognize the Christian doctrinal essentials. But I don’t judge those people’s salvation or say they are devilish, though I would not want my church to organize around certain aspects of what they believe.
I hope this makes some sense to you. I can look at Al Mohler and Mark Dever and tell them where I think they are wrong and where they are right and remain friends with them. But I do that with people of all stripes in my life.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I hope my explanation to Siteseer will answer that. I do not agree with allowing Mahaney to “escape” the discipline of his own congregation.
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This is somewhat off topic but the following link is from The Baptist News regarding Baylor University decisions following the findings of the investigation regarding sexual assaults on campus. Hope the link works. I don’t think anyone else posted this yet.
http://www.bpnews.net/46941/baylor-fires-coach-briles-demotes-pres-starr
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Anonymous wrote:
Thanks much for your honest answer, Anonymous. I wonder why you find it necessary to support 9marks for the few things you agree on when those things are found elsewhere (most notably, I hope, in the scriptures). Since 9marks comes as a system, as a whole (support for Mahaney included, a natural outgrowth of the philosophy), why speak in support of the system when in fact it seems like the only thing you agree on is some portion of reformed theology?
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lynn wrote:
I would attend a church your husband pastored and be glad to have such a humble servant, who truly shows the love of Jesus. This mean-streak of NeoCalvinism and authoritarianism that Mark Dever/9Marks, Acts 29, John MacArthur, Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood, T4G espouse is not of God. They repeat the verses of Scripture and know not what it means in practice. The greatest commandment – Love – they all fail at.
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Deb wrote:
Yes!
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siteseer wrote:
It’s been a while since I looked through the 9 Marks stuff, but I think Marks 1-5 and Mark 8 are fine, generally. But, again, don’t credit me with knowing too much.
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Lydia wrote:
Yes. Women having any thoughts, agency, and autonomy is a HUGE threat to their system.
The first woman I saw be subjected to *church discipline before all*, she wasn’t present, was a Godly, middle-aged, professional woman who had left our NeoCalvinist/9Mark-ist/John MacArthur-ite church for a saner church, a denomination that had been around for a long time and had stability. Hundreds of church members were ordered to stay after the church service. The woman church member was accused by the senior pastor of *not being submissive to her husband*! We were ordered to *pursue her* and to *get her to repent*. In other words to harass her.
And that’s because she changed churches and wouldn’t keep attending the NeoCalvinist church with her husband. She ended up disconnecting her cell phone, email and moving out of the family home to an undisclosed location – that not even her husband knew.
I have never seen anything more grievous. Lovely woman. Lovely Christian. Faithful. Prayerful. Constantly helping the “least of these” (she had a special ministry with mentally ill adults who were living in group homes). She also went to convalescent homes with another local Christian group and ministered to patients.
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@ lifelongfling:
Interesting. Sounds plausible, especially when protecting the male hierarchy is an issue – one of the factors in why Complementarianism is the hill Kevin DeLong, for one, is going to die on. Complementarianism keeps women subjugated and in the place these guys assign, roles lacking authority which they only ascribe to men. Which, essentially, takes the Sword out of their hands and tells women, “Welcome to the church. Us men fight the battles here so you can tend the garden. Lay down your swords. Let us warriors protect you and your dainty petals. Do not argue, fuss or fight; it’s unbefitting for a woman. Here, let us disarm you since we don’t allow you to enlist. There, there, that’s a good girl.”
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@ Ted:
Ted they are re-defining words. Love is now discipline, etc…. That is the problem.
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Anonymous wrote:
In 9Marxist churches anything – the slightest dissent and not even any kind of gross, unrepentant sexual immorality – gets a person subjected to *church discipline* by the pastors/elders including being threatened with you *must not be one of us*, banned from church property, excommunicated and shunned. Dever and Leeman believe that the local church [pastors/elders] can determine if a person is saved or not, by their unwillingness to be in lock-step obedience to the pastors/elders. There is NOTHING Christian about Dever or Leeman, they teach outright heresy. They are two pompous, arrogant men who have happily destroyed Christians’ reputations, lives, families, friendships, marriages, and churches across the land. Dever and Leeman have harmed the name of Jesus Christ before outraged unbelievers who don’t even subscribe to this level of viciousness. Quit trying to mitigate the damage Dever and Leeman have done and giving them a pass.
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@ Anonymous:
Anonymous…please do look me up. I have had a number of people that travel here who want to meet me. I love meeting people…it’s the best part of writing. I would be happy to help your relative if he needs any assistance.
While we disagree on some points I am grateful that you are discussing a differing point of view. There are many people who can’t articulate their thoughts. So I appreciate that you can engage here and explain your perspective.
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FW Rez wrote:
The drinkware includes an item with this description:
“Pint glasses with minor defections that need a home!”
Minor defections. In other words, if you’re under church discipline and locked into the church, you can smuggle yourself out in a beer glass with a picture of Charles Spurgeon on it.
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Anonymous wrote:
Membership the 9Marks way.
At my ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist church the pastors/elders announced from the pulpit that if any attenders weren’t willing to sign a Membership Covenant that they *obviously weren’t one of us* and *God hadn’t called you to be at this church*. The pastors/elders announced from the pulpit in arrogant, snotty, revolting language: “How do we know you’re one of our sheep if you didn’t sign a Membership Covenant?” Oh for the love of God, my cheeks burned scarlet with embarrassment at the SHEER RUDENESS shown to Christians who looked up the church address and Sunday service, woke up, got dressed, got there…and were treated to this kind of galling, uncivil rudeness!
What would the Lord Jesus Christ say that these 9Marxists put their precious Membership Covenant above welcoming fellow believers? Not come back!?? Telling them NOT to come back?
The senior pastor would say from the pulpit that he was SHOCKED that people thought of him as their pastor when he didn’t know that because they hadn’t signed a Membership Covenant. They show up every week, they give, they serve. What more do you need to know about them?
The whole thing is an appalling disgrace.
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Velour wrote:
I appreciate your beliefs and feelings about this, and I am sure it is born by some experience you or friends have had. Christians don’t all share the same opinions, as I think we have established, and that, too, is part of the Priesthood of the Believer. You and I can feel differently about something, and we have to process that directly with the Lord. Neither of us can demand that the other must feel a certain way or do a certain thing.
But we can remain cordial, internet friends.
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Thanks, Eagle. If I come to DC, I definitely will do so.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Home run post, Brad.
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Gram3 wrote:
There is a reason why some are so hostile to psychology and push nouthetic counseling. They are threatened by psychology or even any sort of mysticism or intuition. They have rationalized their problems. They have patched up their wounds with out of context Bible verses and sanctimony. If they had to face themselves or their presuppositions (as Dr Fundystan suggests) they would have to face the damage at the core of their psyche.
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Anonymous wrote:
Thank you for your reply and sharing your views with all of us, including about your acceptance of a wide variety of people on the Christian spectrum. I have watched Salem Witch Trials II, courtesy of Mark Dever’s 9Marks, and all of the lives and relationships destroyed. And it’s NOT funny.
Putting Mahaney aside, what do you have to say about all of the damage that Mark Dever has done to the lives of Christians at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C.? Those are well-documented, by the scores.
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Anonymous wrote:
Do you think that they are qualified to be elders according to the Biblical texts? This particular point does *not* make sense, at least to me. The comment you made about the CR in the SBC I totally understand. Gramp3 and I were absolutely in favor of that and probably damaged some relationships because of our support. I infer that our reasons for supporting the CR were probably
similar to yours. We are conservative, and we *assumed* that these men were conservative and were bringing correction. What we have since learned from personal observation and experience and also from people who have lived behind the curtain is that the CR no longer appears to have been about the truth. Or at least it became a movement that was not God-honoring and which routinely employs worldly means to their supposedly Godly ends.
You may already know that the “can’t we still be friends” with these men is one of the most frequently offered excuses for continuing affiliation with men who have facilitated or directly caused the pain and alienation from the church and from Christ. These men have failed in their most basic functions: to guard and protect the flock. Instead of that, they have embraced the abuser and condemned the victims. For the supposed sake of the Gospel, according to Mohler.
These are not the actions of men who are being guided by the Holy Spirit, IMO. That does not mean they are unbelievers, but it does mean that their *behavior* over multiple years and unknown situations is counter to the Gospel message and to the example of Christ. That is a point I intend to continue to emphasize.
You can befriend anyone you choose to befriend. But be aware that others are going to wonder why you continue to support men who have *objectively* disqualified themselves from leadership according to what the texts actually say. They are preaching another gospel, and that dishonors Christ’s atonement. Yes, it does because it diminishes what he came to do and what he did and who he is.
I’m coming down hard on you in this comment because I really want you to see what you are covering for (I am speaking of their continued behaviors and false teaching.) It is “nothing less than” (my favorite Mohlerism) gross dereliction. It is not a mistake. It is a willful series of decisions that these men have made despite the cries of the victims who have been abused and misled by their cronies. Many have left the church, and some have left Christ.
You are inviting people to drink from a poisoned well. I am not condemning you because I could have written and have said every single thing you have written and more. For *years* I and others trusted these men, our Usual Suspects. I know one of them, Gramp3 has met another one, and we are within one degree of separation about a zillion different ways from several of the Gospel Glitterati. I know disillusioned young seminarians who were appalled at what they found at seminary. They refused to turn a blind eye and spoke out and were accused.
I have given up on the conservative church, and not because I have given up on Jesus. Right now, I think God has given the conservative church over to its desires including the desire to be great, the desire to be influential, the desire to be part of something Big and Important, the desire to be more Christian than Christ himself, the desire to be wealthy in the name of the One who became poor for our sakes. These men have brought shame upon the name of Christ and upon the names of people like me and Gramp3 who supported them.
You should be their friend. And you should be a faithful friend who is willing to wound them with the truth and call them to repentance before they hurt any more people. Before they drive any more away from the church and the true Gospel because the unknowing have imbibed their false gospel believing that it was the water of Life.
I am an older woman, and I realize that in your world (my former world) my words do not carry any weight, but thankfully in the Kingdom women are not subordinate persons who lack basic human agency. IOW “humans” created in the derivative image of God. I have been freed, and I refuse to put on the yoke of slavery these men are commanding me to wear.
For the sake of the Gospel, I implore you to examine *all* that these men are teaching and doing and speak out. I believe that your intentions are good, and from what I can glean from what you have written, I think that you are a caring individual, perhaps an elder or pastor. You have very serious and weighty responsibilities to warn the flock as well as to warn the false teachers, and *especially* if they are your friends.
Sermon over.
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R2 wrote:
To expand on this, my personal observation of some of the men reviled on here is that they do not strike me as controlling or demeaning of their wives and daughters. I have seen them with their families in person and have spoken to some. My suspicion is more toward them having had a controlling and domineering mother, which gave them a deep suspicion of women and a belief that they need to be held in check. Also they can rationalize their mother’s illness by saying “she’s just a woman.” That’s my $0.02.
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Velour wrote:
Well, to be fair to him, he’s right on both counts:
1) Any attender unwilling to sign a blasphemous and idolatrous agreement renouncing the sufficiency of Jesus’ own covenant, sealed with his own blood, obviously isn’t part of such a company;
2) God hasn’t called anybody to join a counterfeit church, but rather, to have nothing to do with it.
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R2 wrote:
Just like Lydia pointed out about their views about Comp doctrine (if that goes than so does their whole does their power structure), the same is true of Nouthetic Counseling (“the Bible is sufficient counsel for all problems”) which is one more enforcer in their authoritarian power dynamic. If pastors/elders humbled themselves and admitted that they don’t have the education, training, and licensing to diagnosis and treat church members and referred them to outside professionals the pastors/elders would lose their *authority* and *power*. And why would they do that?
As someone pointed out over on Spiritual Sounding Board, why is it that pastors/elders who claim the “Bible is sufficient counsel for everything” wear prescription eyeglasses and didn’t treat their vision problems with Scripture verses?
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
So very true.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes, Nick, I came to view it as a blessing in disguise. Some visitors would get up and walk out during the sermon and didn’t even stay for the entire thing. In retrospect, I wish I had been like them.
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Velour wrote:
So much for winsome being Mark 9.1 So sorry for what you went through with this bunch.
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refugee wrote:
I’ll give a shot at an overview of what I know & experienced.
Late 60s – early 70s and the Charismatic Movement swept through the US – impacting all ages (though the largest percentage were highschool & college age) AND all denominations.
People who were not believers as well as people who had been believers and church members for years. These people encountered God, and it changed them. They had tasted and seen that the Lord was good.
I know heroin addicts who stopped overnight and never went back.
I know church members that had been content with feeding on their Sunday sermons, that began voraciously reading Scripture.
I know highschool students who gathered together in groups of 3 or 4 to worship and praise God, to pray to Him and to seek His face.
People continued going to their denominational church, and would meet with other charismatics at other times. Young people who had not been church members, would go wherever they could find a church – to a Southern Baptist church on Sunday mornings, a Methodist church Sunday evening, an Assembly of God on Wednesday night.
And when there wasn’t an official church meeting somewhere, they would get together (again across all denominational lines) in homes, or offices, or the back of a motorcycle shop to worship, to share what they learned that week, to pray for each other, etc.
I say all this to point out that no man was in charge. No organization was determining who did what when.
And in response, several men already in various ministries decided that something needed to be done. There was concern that people were not being held accountable, they might not be maturing.
These were already nationally known speakers and authors, and had established relationships among themselves (that sounds familiar).
It is within the above that the Shepherding/Discipleship movement was launched.
I’ll continue in a following post on what came next.
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Friend wrote:
Nice exegesis!
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous, you continue to confuse me. It’s “been awhile” since you’ve “looked through” the 9marks stuff, you “think” marks 1-5 and 8 are fine “generally” but you “don’t know too much” and yet you are here defending them. I can be kind of dense, it’s true, but I’m missing something here.
Are you simply trying to say that you are friends with the proponents though you aren’t really conversant on or subscribe to the teachings? Which is fine if that’s how you feel, I’m just trying to understand. I’m not really clear on your message.
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R2 wrote:
Sounds very plausible.
Similar to how a lot of the Manosphere/MRA types strike me as having been burned bad by women in their past and have gone full-honk out for revenge against anything without a penis and/or Y chromosome.
Personal reaction given universal application (and Cosmic justification).
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Velour wrote:
I wish I had realized that when you see the older believers, especially, start disappearing from the congregation, it’s a big, fat warning signal.
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BL wrote:
So did Joss Whedon:
“Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
— Captain Mal “Tight Pants” Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity
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siteseer wrote:
In Marxspeak, “Enlightened Self-Criticism before Party Commissars and The Masses”.
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FW Rez wrote:
Thank you for your kind words. It means a lot. I came away from that bad church realizing that I know far more than I sometimes give myself credit for and that I won’t let mere men have *authority* over me again.
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Gram3 wrote:
Actually, no.
The logic goes “ENEMY ‘CHRISTIANS’ DO X, THEREFORE *WE* TRUE CHRISTIANS *MUST* DO THE OPPOSITE OF X”. “Protestsnt” carried to its theoretical ultimate.
Communism begets Objectivism — total opposites on the surface, identical at the core.
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R2 wrote:
That sounds like an Intellectual Snob who’s entire psyche is nothing but Cold Equations.
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
As Headless Unicorn Guy would say:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Orwell was a genius.
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Friend wrote:
On a related note, there is actually a Calvinus beer with a picture of John Calvin on the label … made in Switzerland, of course. True story.
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous, that is exactly the problem I had with one of the chief proponents of the elder-led, male-only movement that recently failed to be adopted in our church.
Separatism is a huge factor in fundamentalism, and I’m convinced that the new calvinism is merely the old fundamentalism but in a reformed instead of a dispensationalist style.
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siteseer wrote:
Yes, I observed that too. 20s-40 year olds, mostly. Older people with spiritual discernment don’t stay around.
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Gram3 wrote:
Thanks for these words, which I can tell were meant in great sincerity. I am working on something, and will give you a substantive response later. Did not want you to think if it took a while that I was ignoring you. Thanks.
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refugee wrote:
Part 2:
The discipleship leaders were initially involved with a ministry in Florida whose leader committed sexual sins. In response to this ministry’s failure, they sought protection from such failure by committing to each other for accountability.
So, we had a large number of on-fire Christians going from one meeting to another, one denomination to another, caravaning to other cities for some traveling evangelist, spending hours reading books or listening to teaching tapes, as well as talking to and teaching each other.
The men, Mumford, Simpson, Prince & Simpson (Baxter joined later) thought that the burgeoning charismatic movement needed to be accountable to someone and that someone needed to oversee it in order for the people to grow and mature.
They named themselves Christian Growth Ministries.
And in no particular order – they emphasized the importance of:
Restoring biblical church government.
The local church.
Covenant.
Spiritual authority, spiritual covering, delegated authority.
Male authority.
Accountability.
Spiritual covering (everyone had to have a personal shepherd).
Unquestioned obedience to your shepherd.
Wives’ submission & obedience to husbands.
Honoring & serving leadership.
Not gossiping, no negative speech, no spreading strife.
This church – Elitism (we’re the ones who are doing it right).
Not making any decisions without your shepherd’s approval.
Unity (with no place for dissent or disagreement.)
Small shepherding groups.
Obeying your shepherd even if he is wrong & trust God will fix it.
Leaving this church and your are leaving God.
Shunning anyone who has left.
.
I’m sure I’ve overlooked some aspects.
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siteseer wrote:
Good question.
No. It’s not as you surmise – that I am friends but haven’t read the 9 Marks stuff.
I read it. Years ago. I don’t keep up and don’t remember what they say exactly, but when I read it, I don’t remember them saying anything heretical in those chapters.
I read the 9 Marks material on the web from time to time. When they are on Membership and Discipline, I find lots I disagree with. When they are not, I don’t.
Does that help?
If there are particular passages in those chapters (Marks 1-5 and 8) that you think are heretical, I would be very interested to know. I would be glad to give you my thoughts.
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Paula Rice wrote:
It goes beyond that. It relegates wives to the status of glorified plantation slaves. They just choose flowery words to say it, hoping we won’t really see what they’re up to!
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siteseer wrote:
I COMPLETELY agree. A little more than a year ago I put together a paper on this topic, but it’s a bit too long to post as a comment. Evangelical Christianity has bought into a lie when it comes to accountability. There is no passage in the Bible telling us that Christians are accountable to each other. Not one. Check out this list of synonyms for “hold accountable” – http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hold+accountable. What I think we mean when we talk about Christian accountability is something more along the lines of mutual support. Interestingly, “support” is one of the listed antonyms of “hold accountable.” I don’t know how this word came to be so Christian. It appears to have come out of the diet fads of the 1970s. But I could be wrong. But I do know that “accountability” is used to shame people into submission by the YRR crowd.
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Anonymous wrote:
If you are a big supporter of BF&M 2000 Article xvii, I am among the many who disagree.
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Nancy2 wrote:
The “spiritually correct” flowery word is “Winsome” as in “winsomely glorified plantation slaves.” If that doesn’t work, then add “for the Lord’s sake” or “for/to the glory of God” to the end of the sentence.
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Ken F wrote:
“for the Lord’s sake” or “for/to the glory of God” = flowery words for “sanctified testosterone”?
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Nancy2 wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of “I’m right, your wrong, and to argue with me is to argue against God.” It’s called “taking God’s name in vain.”
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Anonymous wrote:
Some people have found that very useful. 🙂 My feelings are the absolute least of the problem, but I appreciate that.
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Ken F wrote:
Tee hee. I though it was all the same ……. at least that’s the idea I got from the last T4G conference!
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Anonymous wrote:
What specifically was lost that was recovered by Mohler & Dever?
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Ken F wrote:
It was also used by the shepherding discipleship crew to get all the pewishioners lined up under their hierarchical structure. Fear was also a motivating factor.
Failing to submit to their authority in order to held accountable meant that we would never mature as believers. Choosing to question or ‘rebel’ against their authority over us, meant that we would be easy pickins’ for Satan & Co, vulnerable to God’s wrathful judgement for our disobedience, and was clearly an indication that we were already deeply deceived.
Definitely fear.
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Ted wrote:
Or a very good observer of human behavior. I often refer to various aspects of “1984” as apt metaphors for what I see today. What I take away from Orwell is the behaviors I identify now and he wrote about in the 40’s were alive and thriving in his time.
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BL wrote:
And there we have some of the key words: shepherding and discipleship — two authoritarian movements that constantly misuse Bible words/concepts like “submit” and “obey” and “authority” to pressure followers to conform to those in authority if they want to “prove” they are truly serious about following God.
This is a heresy, is it not? At least, that appears to be the consensus of Christian books on cults and on spiritual abuse and recovery published over the last 25 years. And that is why it is crucial to identify that the functional reality of these authority figures is that they take the place of the Holy Spirit by imposing law on those who seek to follow Jesus, and take the place of Jesus Christ as the supposedly authorized mediator between the everyday disciple and the Father. It’s insidious … and it contradicts the gospel, turning it inside out so people are supposedly saved by Grace — and yet required to live by Law.
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Ken F wrote:
I have come to agree with your conclusion and find it interesting that the 9Marks folks see the need for accountability for everyone but themselves as leaders. If you believe in the need for leaders and believe in the need for accountability, then the ones that need the most accountability are leaders.
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Bill M wrote:
“But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.” (1 Timothy 5:20, NIV) Seems the whole context of the passage involves special accountability — and consequences — for leaders who act irresponsibly.
Also, even if that weren’t there in the Scriptures, if a U.S. church is registered as a non-profit entity, it is subject to accountability via IRS regulations. You don’t want that accountability, then don’t sign up for tax breaks that require you to have transparency, good governance that disallows for conflicts of interest and excessive benefit to board members, staff, their families, and their friends.
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@ brad/futuristguy:
P.S. … and financial accountability, and spending designated donations for the precise purposes for which the church solicited them.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Where the Gospel Glitterati and the Federal Vision agree. No wonder the YRR like Doug Wilson!
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
We are so used to using “accountability” in Christianity that it’s difficult to know what to do without it. Here are a few thoughts that could help.
Here’s the definition from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountability:
“A is accountable to B when A is obliged to inform B about A’s (past or future) actions and decisions, to justify them, and to suffer punishment in the case of eventual misconduct. Accountability cannot exist without proper accounting practices; in other words, an absence of accounting means an absence of accountability.”
A web search on “held accountable” will show plenty of articles about how people are or should be held accountable in non-church settings. In all cases it means something along the lines of punishment. For example, I never find articles about holding a corrupt government official accountable by coming alongside him with love and support. If the rest of the world uses that word in a very different way than the way we use it in the church, does our use of the word create an obstacle for outsiders? Does it help the world to know that the Gospel is good news when they hear us speak so much about the need for accountability within the church? Or does it make the Gospel sound like bad news?
One important point to note is that accountability is not a choice made by the person who is held accountable. They are accountable for their actions whether or not they want to be held accountable. For example, a person does not get to choose whether or not they are accountable to civil officials if they break the law. And an employee is accountable for meeting performance standards whether or not they agree with the expectations. By contrast, in church settings, accountability is very often talked about as if it is a freely made choice. This suggests that the church is not using the right word.
The Bible stresses the importance of involvement, even including rebuke and reprovel. But that is not accountability. That’s where is can seem complicated. But since the Bible does not use language about being accountable to each other then we also need to be careful how we use it.
Legal accountability as a non-profit organization is a different issue. It’s perfectly right for churches to be accountable for their finances in the same way that any other non-profit is accountable.
Does this help.
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@ BL:
“They view pewishioners as ‘dumb, directionless, & defenseless.” … So it is their job to control those sheep – tell them what to think, tell them where to go.
They think they are doing what’s best for the pewishioners.
++++++++++++
well, I sort of appreciate whatever goodness is in their motives 😐 — and of course there are oodles of reasons to doubt their benevolence.
benevolence aside, this is the deal: I didn’t get born into the free world growing up learning all manner of varied things into a mature, highly capable, gifted (just like everyone) & educated adult only to end up turning my decisions and thoughts over to a male human being wearing a Christian leader’s hat to manage for me so they can receive a paycheck.
memo to the man wearing the Christian leader’s hat (who’s probably young enough for me to be his mother): you are pleasant, and kind. now take your hands off my life.
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous, I think you should try having that conversation with Dever and Mohler and let us know how it goes. I have no doubts that you would desire to remain friends with them–I think you may be naive regarding their reciprocity regarding friendship. The one thing that may keep them in your circle of friends is if you contribute significant financial support or have some community standing that is useful to them. I, evidently, did not have enough of either when I engaged my friends who were embracing authoritarian leadership patterns.
Personal experience while engaging lesser lights than Mohler and Dever, but who shared a similar authoritarian ministry paradigm. Friendship with men that I had know for 20+ years ended quickly–not by my choice. My sense was that winning was more important to them than understanding and reconciliation.
Be careful when you have the conversation with them–take someone with you; if you go alone, you may be surprised at the way your conversation is framed. I wish you the best…
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Ted wrote:
As someone who went from the frying pan into the fire, I quite agree with you!
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@ Cousin of Eutychus:
“I was always creeped out by the shaved heads in the church leadership of SGM churches.”
+++++++++++
grown men…. acting just like all the girls in my junior high circa 1980, all dressed alike in their newly minted guess jeans (with the red & white triangle on the back pocket) and their long feathered hair.
except no need for the big fat comb in the back pocket, of course.
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Ken F wrote:
My experience is, as soon as the word “accountability” gets brought out, it is some variation on shepherding error.
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@ Ken F:
Some helpful thoughts there, thanks for posting them, Ken. I need to think through how related concepts do/don’t fit in — responsibility, rebuke, consequences, etc. — and differences that might be there between terms we use in English and current culture versus biblical words.
But this is definitely an important topic to explore, as “accountability” is misapplied to disciples and puts false burdens on them, while authoritarian leaders act is if they are biblically off the hook from consequences and can do whatever whenever whyever.
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Anonymous,
Thank you for responding to me (and to siteseer).
Anonymous wrote:
Separate SGM from 9Marx? I don’t see why. After all, Dever and Mohler don’t have the sense or the conscience to separate themselves from Mahaney. Why should anyone else treat them as distinct?
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Absolutely, positively, even turning their backs on my wife in an unscripted encounter at a public venue. It is so important to be right that relationships are abandoned and people are pushed aside all in the name of their church. A prideful authoritarian is a sickening sight.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
There are very many Christian web sites that talk about Biblical accountability. What I find interesting about these sites is that they consistently emphasize the “one another” type of passages rather than the actual meaning of the word, and most emphasize making accountability voluntary and relational. It’s probably a noble attempt to Christianize the word, but it completely changes the meaning of the word as the rest of the world understands it. The problem with redefining words to mean something different in church is the confusion it creates for those who don’t know exactly what we mean by the word. How can any of us know for sure what the other person means by this word when the church meaning is almost the opposite of the non-church meaning?
However, there is a place for accountability within the church: when church people behave illegally or unethically. In those cases they should be reported to the appropriate authorities so that they can be appropriately held accountable for their conduct. Examples include abuse, extortion, tax evasion, stealing, drug use, fraud, bribery, and kick-backs. The important distinction is that these are offenses against the civil legal system, not moral lapses that are otherwise legal.
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Ken F wrote:
The Bible has a long history of supporting or not supporting just about anything its readers fancy or don’t fancy.
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Muff Potter wrote:
At many authoritarian churches they use the “confess your sins to one another” verse to justify intrusive, unwanted, boundaryless “accountability”.
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Bill M wrote:
That is just disgusting! I am so sorry for your dear wife and for what you folks have gone through. No wonder the name of Jesus is the subject of eye-rolling and mockery among unbelievers when supposed Christians would shun other people, let alone people in the same faith.
It reminds me of that quote, attributed to Gandhi, ‘I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Shaved heads among YRR pastors/elders are common in my area. I think it has something to do with appearing more dominant and masculine, as compared to naturally balding guys. Oh, how these guys love anything that makes them appear more dominant and authoritarian, you know! Creepy, for sure.
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@ Muff Potter:
“The Bible has a long history of supporting or not supporting just about anything its readers fancy or don’t fancy.”
+++++++++++++
in the present time, all these differing conclusions, dire enough to warrant splitting off into how many denominations now? (or non-denominations)
they can’t all be right. I doubt all are wrong.
my conclusions:
-they’re all part right and part wrong, as are my views.
-might as well focus on kindness, champion what is life-giving, and intelligently protest what is harmful to people, fauna and flora.
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Max wrote:
Reminds of the King of Siam character 😉
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RE: Financial Needs of Shauna and Billy; Dee has kept the GoFundMe Account open
Hi TWW Readers,
A slightly off-topic post from the subject, since everyone is reading here right now.
Dee has kept the GoFundMe account open for Shauna (mom) and Billy (son). They are in Texas. People here previously helped them. Shauna is a single mom. They were terribly abused at their church when a church member sex abused the son. (Dee has all of the documents and has covered this case.) The church members cancelled housecleaning jobs that Shauna uses to support her and her son.
https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
This is what Shauna posted about her needs tonight, when I asked here at TWW under the title that Dee has with their names:
“Sorry it took so long my Internet on my phone has gone in and out with all the storms and flooding here. Our needs are very basic and to most would seem like nothing but to us it is difficult to keep up.
Utilities
Trash service
Car insurance
Food
Rent
Gas
Water bill
Rent / I pay a difference
Clothing /shoes / school lunch whatever billy’s needs happend to be that month.
Car maintenance
Medical bills / from billy’s assault (I can’t pay much on that not enough income )
Tutor for billy
Counseling for billy not sure if I will pay or how much yet.
Billy is having difficulty lately sleeping. He is afraid lately of his recent flare up of nightmares.
Anyways this is all I can think of right now. Billy and I live very simple. I cut out the luxuries and I’m glad I don’t have them as it is not practical.”
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@ Bill M:
“…It is so important to be right that relationships are abandoned and people are pushed aside all in the name of their church. A prideful authoritarian is a sickening sight.”
++++++++++++++
i’m very sorry for the horrible and rotten way your wife was treated. these people…. did they never mature emotionally or does their church culture cause them to regress to petty playground behavior?
‘principle over people’. reminds me of Christian men going to a Christian venue where a woman was due to speak (ie, Anne Graham Lotz, Jill Briscoe), and turning their chairs around with their backs facing her when she stepped up to the podium. what dix. what is it about our silly religion that causes people to be so cruel? is it not the most ironic thing.
even in my most recent egalitarian church experience (which truly was the best of churches), i was very surprised to observe ‘principle over people’ in very hurtful ways. it hammered the final nail in the coffin for me.
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Bingo
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elastigirl wrote:
People who have a genuine relationship with the Lord are not cruel; “religious” people can be. Some of the meanest people on the planet go to church (little “c”). The Church (the real one) operates in love and kindness; the Bride of Christ is not mean-spirited, but filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. The institution we call church is OK if it is fulfilling the Great Commission in love to reach ALL men with the message of Christ … and then equipping ‘them’ to do the work of the ministry. The genuine Church focuses on a relationship with the living Christ, rather than devotion to religious teachings and traditions of men. Personally, I hope to live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached!
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Bill M wrote:
Ah, yes – the spiritual gift of shunning.
After ~10 years in which there was almost daily interaction with multiple fellow church-members, after we received the left-boot of fellowship – it was as if we had never existed to them.
Under the dire warnings that we were rebelling and sure to encounter God’s judgment (and being especially vulnerable now without our spiritual covering), the miscarriage we experienced a few weeks afterward was actually used from the pulpit as an example of what happens to those who leave ‘the church’.
Can’t you feel the love?
.
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BL wrote:
That is just disgusting.
I am sorry you went through such an awful experience at the hands of a church, BL.
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elastigirl wrote:
Pretty much my conclusions too.
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OK. Again I get to say this.
To keep out the nuts and SPAM we have a LOT of moderation filters running. And they catch a LOT of normal comments. They are simple computer algorithms, not people examining every comment.
What this means is if you get moderated it is most likely because you used a combination of words that might be construed as “bad”. It does NOT mean the comment is bad. And so we let them through.
My point. If you get a comment moderated, chill. We release 99% of them with no issue. If your comment is in the 1% we will email you and let you know what’s up.
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@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:
Thanks GBTC!
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@ BL:
What kind of church / what denomination / what church is this?
(whatever you feel comfortable sharing, even if it’s nothing)
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elastigirl wrote:
The church was one of the shining stars in the shepherding discipleship movement from the 70s/80s.
The movement led by Simpson, Mumford, Baxter, Prince, & Basham.
Their primary doctrines were in lockstep with the current teachings of the YRR crowd. They would feel quite at home with each other.
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@ Max:
“People who have a genuine relationship with the Lord are not cruel; “religious” people can be.”
++++++++++++++++++++
well, I suspect they started out with a genuine relationship with God. church stupidness infected them with a virus that is eating away at it. they must still possess a modicum of genuine relationship — I mean, I don’t see how it could all erode away in all of such people.
so… the question at this point is…. (my brain is shutting down)… what is it about church that makes people cruel?
or, what is it about Christians that they can have both somewhat of a relationship with God and yet be so blind to their cruelty?
or,…. anyone? anyone?
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elastigirl wrote:
I think what makes us cruel is our view of God. If we believe that he is angry and controlling then we will become angry and controlling.
The internet is too easy sometimes. Based on your question I searched on “we become like what we worship” because it’s something I heard one. What a surprise, an article with that exact title was published on Piper’s site a few years ago: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/we-become-what-we-worship. Normally I have to search a bit harder than that.
Here is what it says:
“Greg Beale titled his landmark book We Become What We Worship. His thesis is simple: ‘What people revere, they resemble, either for ruin or for restoration.’ He traces the theme throughout Scripture to show that we are worshippers, and that our worship exposes us and changes us. We either revere the world and are conformed to the sinful patterns of the world, or we revere God and are progressively conformed into his likeness.”
Calvinists believe that God defines his own terms, that he hates sinners, that he is so disgusted with humanity that he can only be appeased after an innocent person suffers, and that he has his chosen favorites who get saved and everyone else goes to hell just because he said so. We should not be surprised that the fruit of Calvinism is people just like that.
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@ BL:
wouldn’t be part of MFI, would it? (ministers fellowship international)
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@ Ken F:
“I think what makes us cruel is our view of God.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
I observe all human beings to be anywhere on the cruel to kind spectrum, regardless of their view of God.
Atheists are kind and cruel. As are people from any other world religion to no religion.
I still wonder what it is about pursuing God/Jesus/HolySpirit that somehow can make people the biggest @xxh01es on earth. What part of human nature is activated by such spiritual pursuits so as to generate cruelty?
i’ll answer my own question with ‘primal urge to control’.
maybe that’s it.
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elastigirl wrote:
No, the church referenced no longer exists, nor does the shepherding/discipleship movement (at least by that name and with those leaders).
I googled “Ministers Fellowship International” and found it is led by Frank Damazio, who appears to be running the same “join our network and we’ll keep you accountable” scheme employed by the shep/disc folks as well as a similar focus on conferences, networking, training and materials for young leaders as the YRR folks.
Have you had a close encounter with MFI?
The freakiest info is that he and his MFI is connected with C. Peter Wager’s National Apostolic Reformation pinheads.
All the leaders and organizations associated with Wagner & his NAR are pushing their version of dominionism on the world.
Wagner & associates have been working hard and have established a network of networks with global reach headed by self-appointed ‘Apostles.’
I’m more familiar with NAR’s work in the US (via their Seven Mountain Mandate) and more specifically their push to unite all churches in every city/town, by networking the pastors under various “city transformation” ministries.
The goal of this particular endeavor is to have the equivalent of one church in each city, one church but multiple congregations. And an apostle of the city to oversee them, of course.
This same dominionistic thread also ran through the shep/disc movement. Why would anyone want to argue against unity?
Because the goal isn’t unity in and of itself. The same frustration expressed by today’s YRR that people just leave one church and go to another was expressed back in the 70s & 80s.
Unified together, pastors across denominations networking would prevent a member ‘under discipline’ to be able to attend or join another church in the city.
So, the purpose of the unity was/is… control.
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elastigirl wrote:
I think that’s a big part of it. But I also think it’s related to our view of God. We can only love others to the extent that we feel loved by God. If we believe that we don’t measure up, that we have to jump through a lot of hoops for him to find us acceptable, then that is how we will feel about others. We’ll expect them to have to jump through the same hoops we think we have to jump through. If we believe that God’s love is conditional, our love will likewise be conditional.
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elastigirl wrote:
The devil goes to church, too. He’s in the cruel business.
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Anonymous wrote:
The child porn missionary husband also confessed to his (now ex) wife that he had gotten away with on-contact sexual abuse of children.
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@ Ken F:
“We can only love others to the extent that we feel loved by God.”
++++++++++++++++++++
i’m afraid I have to say this is not true at all. the people in my life who are agnostic, atheist, and muslim love me great. they are the kindest, most sincere and loving people. with regard to their fellow human being.
perhaps they feel loved by God (on a subconscious level for those of an agnostic and atheist bent). I believe my muslim friend feels loved by God.
perhaps Christianity (or certain strains of it) is what clouds if not walls off the experience of God’s love.
like, people are introduced to God and how wonderful God is. then Christian churches chime in and say “Now, lesson 1: You’re a worm. Lesson 2: you’re worthless. Lesson 3: you’re incapable of doing anything good. Lesson 4: whatever goodness is in your life is more than you deserve.
I think there’s truth to this. and irony of all ironies it is.
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@ BL:
yes, went to an MFI 1st Church of Dysfunction. It’s been 10 years — I think i’m done detoxing. but i’ll never be the same. in some ways that’s good.
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elastigirl wrote:
And perhaps people go looking for a version of God that fits them (authoritarian, angry, judgmental, condemning, hate-filled, arrogant)…because that’s what they are and anything else is too threatening and they might have to change.
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@ Velour:
our mutual ‘friend’, when I knew him, was fun-loving, kind, goofy, sincere. your description is like, no, it can’t be. something about the environment he went into changed him.
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elastigirl wrote:
I’ve told you this before but he was raised by a very violent, abusive father. I think he’s never worked on those issues and has turned out just like dear old dad.
He went to John MacArthur’s The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary in Southern California, as you probably know. That cultic environment certainly could brain wash anyone. Adding on all of the Patriarchy teachings, homeschooling (more of the Rushdoony and Gothard and Philips garbage coming through) that he and his wife did, Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood (more of the same Patriarchy obey and submit stuff), Young Earth Creation (he believes that the earth is only 6,000 years old, even though there are some 56 different Hebrew meanings for the word in the creation story including for the meaning “a long time”)…I don’t know what happened to him. He also believes that the Bible is sufficent counsel for everything, i.e. Nouthetic Counseling. He’s poorly educated, not licensed, and gives dumb and dangerous advice to people about incredibly serious things that they should see a licensed professional for. He could also use some really good psychotherapy to work on his own messed up life, but he doesn’t believe in that. (As several people have pointed out, his wife seems “wound very tightly”. I would want to live with someone like him.)
He certainly has deceived many people about his background. A ministry position that he claimed that he had at John MacArthur’s church, JMac said is a lie and that he was never on staff at the church and was ONLY in a volunteer position.
He told all of us about defending The Gospel before liberals in a Southern California college while he was taking classes to become a teacher. The State of California Teacher Credentialing said they’ve never credentialed anyone with his name to teach in California.
He seems pretty dishonest about himself and has been by countless people of lying to them, lying about them, and abusing them. Behind closed doors, he’s a thug. A bully. Screaming. Put-downs. Countless church members describe being reduced to tears by him.
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^correction: I WOULND’T want to live with someone like him.
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elastigirl wrote:
It doesn’t seem to matter when or where or what the name might be – spiritually abusive leadership in churches follows the same pattern.
As you say – good and bad. My rose-colored glasses were broken, clearing away a susceptibility to someone’s soaring words and claims of authority.
I found out that MFI was actually founded by Dick Iverson who was involved in the Latter Rain Movement from the 40s – as was several of the Shep/Disc leaders.
He and they were members of various ministry network groups for decades. Simpson & Iverson were both members of the Apostolic Presbyters of the Network of Christian Ministries.
The multiple connections probably explains the commonality between our experiences.
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elastigirl wrote:
I have discovered the actions of many people are not governed by an inner transformation but an outward conformity to “acceptable” behavior. Thus if you have nothing to offer them or their peers then there is little left to regulate their behavior towards you.
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elastigirl wrote:
That’s where I’m thinking a particular view of God causes people to be jerks. But as you suggest, their attitude could be the cause of their beliefs rather than the effect. I don’t know how to speak for an atheist, but I would think that someone who does not believe in God would not believe in the Calvinistic view of God and would therefore not be drawn to that type of behavior.
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@ Max:
Also first name sounded old fashioned and not cool bro.
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@ Ken F:
“I would think that someone who does not believe in God would not believe in the Calvinistic view of God and would therefore not be drawn to that type of behavior.”
+++++++++++++
indeed.
wouldn’t said atheist, then, be less adulterated in his/her ability to feel/express/have love for other human beings?
certainly many things can interfere with a person’s experience of love (trauma, a less-than nurturing childhood, lack of emotional skills to get through hurts and disappointments, clinical depression, etc.). but without the virus of religious groups that tear down the individual (whether doing so with sweet smiles or not), isn’t an atheist in a better position to feel/express/have love for other human beings?
you had said, “We can only love others to the extent that we feel loved by God.”
I have to counter your statement with this: it is a true statement that my atheist friends have been as loving and kind as the best Christian person I’ve ever known. they have been self-sacrificing, generous, patient, and so sincere.
God is great. but, to be honest, knowing God is not a prerequisite to love. or any other kind of strong character. it just isn’t so.
(i’ll go further by saying I see the goodness in my atheist friends as down to them having been created in God’s image, whatever that means)
thank you for your thoughtful reply. I do appreciate it.
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2002 IRS filing of Center for Church Reform:
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/522/122/2002-522122636-1-F.pdf
Last page says:
“On December 30, 1999, the Board of Directors for the Center for Church Reform made a resolution that it be dissolved at December 31, 1999. The assets were to be transferred to Capitol Hill Baptist Church EIN 53-0232505. However the checking account was not transferred until 2000. Below are the assets transferred
Checking Account”
There are three officers listed on p. 6, all with addresses on the 500 block of East Capitol, Washington, DC:
Matt Schmucker, President
Chris Vizas, Treasurer
Mark Dever, Chairman/Secretary
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BL wrote:
Following is the initial apology that came from the shep/disc that is so very similar to what Dever said above.
“We realize that controversies and problems have arisen among Christians in various areas as a result of our teaching in relation to subjects such as submission, authority, discipling and shepherding. We deeply regret these problems and, insofar as they are due to fault on our part, we ask forgiveness from our fellow believers whom we have offended.
We realize that our teachings, though we believe them to be essentially sound, have in various places been misapplied or handled in an immature way: and that this has caused problems for our brothers in the ministry. “
It’s deja vu all over again!
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elastigirl wrote:
This stuff? Theses 1 through 4? In my opinion?
Lies from the father of lies.
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elastigirl wrote:
That is a very good point that I have to think about. I was looking at this from the perspective of Christian. We Christians believe that God is love. So if we think that God is like how I described above in the Calvinist sense, then we will end up treating others like that. I think that was my main point.
I honestly don’t know what motivates atheists to love. If atheism is true, then the universe (or potentially multiverse) is nothing more than a freak accident with no design or purpose because a design or purpose would imply designer, which implies an underlying intelligence, which is exactly what atheists reject. So if there is no design or purpose, evolution has no design or purpose. Similarly, there is no moral standard because a moral standard would require a standard bearer. Since there is no ultimate meaning or purpose, then morality, as quaint as it may be, has no meaning because it has no standard on which to compare things as good or bad. It would mean there is no such thing as good or bad/evil. The most foul crime against humanity would be nothing more than a mere accident of a certain combination of subatomic particles. It would have no moral value. Likewise for love. One could argue that love is an evolutionary response to benefit the species. But even this is completely accidental since evolution can have no goal since there is nothing meaningful to shoot for since the universe has no underlying purpose. Love itself is just another random accident that has no ultimate meaning. It’s just like what the writer of Ecclesiastes stated: “Everything is meaningless,” says the Teacher, “completely meaningless!” How cheery.
This is why I wonder if there are any true atheists. I’ve not yet met one who in practice buys into the logical conclusion that everything is utterly meaningless. I’ve not met anyone who believes life is utterly devoid of meaning.
I think you are right that all of humanity expresses God’s image, whether we know it or not. I think atheists can love well because they have not been infected with such a horrific view of God.
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@ Jerome:
Interesting information. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!
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BL wrote:
OK…
Is that “Communism failed only because The Wrong People were in charge”?
Or Joseph Smith’s “The Bible, Insofar as it is Translated Correctly”?
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BL wrote:
You were doubleplusunperson.
Or Entheta SP, with Disconnect Decree from Flag.
As in they put a Hex on you for going over the Wall?
“O GREAT CHEMOSH! O GREAT BAAL! SEND DEATH AND DESTRUCTION DOWN UPON THESE *MY* ENEMIES!”
As in Ministry of Love, 1984?
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Max wrote:
Fanboys trying to Be Just Like The HUMBLE One.
“HE shaves His head (SQUEEEEEEE!) So WE Must Shave Our Heads.”
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Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
You need a Witness who isn’t in THEIR pocket.
That or wear a wire.
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Gram3 wrote:
That and it promises THEY get to be the Commanders of Gilead, Penetrating/Colonizing/Conquering/Planting their Handmaids.
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BL wrote:
Real True Christianity.
The same thing that was lost via Constantine and recovered by Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G White, Mo David, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, and every Reverend Apostle Nehemiah Scudder with his Original New Testament Church of One.
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Ted wrote:
“The new Presbyter is but old Priest writ large.”
— John Milton
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BL wrote:
Anyone remember the panel in Jack Chick’s “The Beast” where The Antichrist crows in triumph “Now All Religions Are One!”
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The reason Dever is saying do not do it right away is because a new pastor needs time to teach properly on this subject as like many things it is often misunderstood and misrepresented. A pastor needs three to five years in a church before trust is established.@ Gram3:
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John wrote:
These excommunications and shunnings that Dever proposes, the “keys” being given to the local church to “key” people out of the church, for the slightest dissent, Christian conscience, autonomy (no sexual immorality whatsoever), has resulted in a great deal of damage across the U.S. in churches.
Mark Dever has gotten pushback and withering criticism and he is obviously feeling it. That’s why he issued this warning. It blew up in his face.
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I wonder at what point they will decide to change it to 10Marks and add Complmentarianism to the list. Clearly they consider it at least as important as any of the others.
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Junkster wrote:
Indeed, they do.
Don’t give ’em ideas. They’ve already missed the One Mark of Christians: Love!
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@ Junkster:
Hi Junkster! Welcome back!
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John wrote:
I can assure you that what they actually mean is greatly misrepresented to the pewpeons and to at least some of the elders who are presumed to be on board with it when it is implemented in the LocalChurch.
If these guys have such a great system which has been developed and propagated by such great teachers, then why is it apparently so difficult to implement by younger pastors without debacles like Driscol, Chandler, and Mahaney? Non of those will go away with a wave of the hand and giving them more time to study the system. The system is rotten and wrong and, yes, UnBiblical. Really, are these pastors so slow that it takes 5 years to persuade people of something that is truly Biblical? Where is the Holy Spirit?