"Showers of shame are often more frequent than showers of blessing in evangelical churches."
Wade Burleson
Wade Burleson, our EChurch pastor, recently published a post that we found extremely uplifting, and we wanted to share it with our readers. We agree with Wade's assessment that sometimes church leaders use shame to manipulate their flocks. That should never happen! We hope you will take to heart his encouraging words. We are blessed to be able to feature Wade's grace-filled messages week after week.
Please continue to pray for Dee as she cares for her mother-in-law (who just turned 88), as well as her elderly mother and step-father. She has been such an inspiration to me as she has poured herself into the blog and selflessly devoted so much time to her family members.
The Shame Game vs. Inner Transformation (link)
Wade Burleson
Preachers sometimes use shame to motivate and manipulate people to give more, serve more, and do more. Christians will often find themselves being worn out over being worn out.
Those who know me understand my message is one of God's grace through Christ Jesus. I attempt to lead people to freedom that comes from knowing the truth that is in Christ. I believe shame is no motivation for the believer of the Good News. The passive obedience of Christ, His death, forever removes our sin. The active obedience of Christ, His life, forever becomes our righteousness. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (II Cor. 5:21). The favor of God is forever ours because of His grace to us in His Son.
Christians do what we do in this life because of our joy in knowing Christ. We serve God and others because we are awakened to Christ's sacrificial service for us. We love God and other people because we've been captivated by God's unconditional love for us. We are never motivated to do good because of our shame over sin, but rather, we do good because of the joy that comes from our full and free forgiveness and our radical and real righteousness (e.g. His righteousness) which becomes ours through our faith in Him! (Philippians 3:7-11)
Man of sorrows what a name
for the Son of God, who came
ruined sinners to reclaim:
Hallelujah, what a Savior!Bearing shame and scoffing rude,
in my place condemned He stood,
sealed my pardon with His blood:
Hallelujah, what a Savior!
He bore my sin and my shame. It's gone.
Personal shame is defined as "a belief that I am defective." The struggle of every believer in Christ is coming to the place of living out on earth what is true of him or her in before God. In Christ, we are counted perfectly righteous. That's who we are. The intense struggle Christians face in getting rid of personal shame is only enhanced when Christian leaders use language that is designed to convey Christians are defective. Showers of shame are often more frequent than showers of blessing in evangelical churches.
Again, I'm convinced there's no room for shame after coming to faith in Christ. The Good News changes the dynamics of who I am and what I've done. The testimony of every believer should go something like this: I realize I was defective, but grace changed my perspective, and now I see God's eternal objective.
God takes me, a shame-filled sinner, and radically transforms me into a grace-filled son. There is no longer any place for regret in my life, nor is there any room for shame in Christ. God is "at work" transforming me into the image of His Son and working all things for my good (see I1 Cor. 3:18 and Romans 8:28)
But there are two verses that seemingly go against this teaching that "shame" (e.g. grief over who I am) and "regret" (e.g. sorrow over what I've done) are gone in Christ. In the Corinthian church there were Christians suing other Christians over "everyday matters" and standing before civil judges who had no relationship with Christ. Paul writes:
"I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren?" (I Corinthians 6:5)
In I Corinthians 15:34 the Apostle Paul seems to say something similar:
"Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame."
These are the only two verses in the entire New Testament that use this particular Greek word translated "shame". What does Paul mean by these two verses? Are Christians supposed to "feel bad about themselves" and shrink back into a state of self-condemnation and shame because of what we have done?
No, not at all.
The word wrongly translated "shame" in I Corinthians 6:5 and I Corinthians 15:34 is the Greek word entrope, which means “a turning in upon oneself" or literally en – "inner" trope – "transformation." Paul is writing for "the inner transformation" of these Corinthian Christians, not their "shame."
A 19th century physicist coined the English word entropy – taken directly from this biblical Greek word – to describe "transformation energy between two states." Using the better and more literal English translation for the Greek word entrope, let's look again at the two places this word is used in the New Testament:
"I say this for your inner transformation. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren?" (I Corinthians 6:5)
"Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this for your inner transformation." (I Corinthians 15:4).
Why did the King James Translators use the word "shame?" Why do most modern Bible translations follow the same pattern?
I don't know. There are other Greek words used in the New Testament that are properly translated shame, but they are never used to describe how a Christian ought to feel about himself!
“Do not be ashamed (Gk. epaisxynomai) about the testimony of the Lord or my chains as a prisoner, but share in the suffering for the gospel by the power of God.” (II Timothy 1:8).
Effective, grace-filled leadership in churches and families will always seek to persuade Christians to "turn within" and see the "transformational power" of Jesus Christ at work within our hearts and lives. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27). "The Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you" (Romans 8:11).
If you start getting flustered with your circumstances, and if you feel compelled to take matters into your own hands to try to control the people and/or circumstances around you, take a deep breath and look within to the "inner transformation" that is happening by the power of God's grace.
God is at work in you. If the King of Kings and Lord of Creation has chosen to take up His residence within you and to transfer the same power that raised Christ from the dead into you (entrope), then you need to simply "turn within and see His power" and re-think what you are doing. You have the power to love others when their unlovely. You have the power to forgive others when they are unforgiving. You have the power to be at peace when all around you is war. You have the power of Christ in you.
Thinking about who you are by the grace of God, and the transformational energy inside you is enough motivation to be different than the world.
First?
Amen to what Wade Burleson wrote!
Those two passages make sense now! The “I’m so terrible-rotten-no value-just totally worthless” connotation of “shame” has seemed completely and puzzlingly unhelpful in those two verses, but “inner transformation” makes them light up. Thank you!
@ Paula Rice: Yes! 🙂
Thank you Wade!!! Beautiful deep breath grace filled and lovely…this is what Christ has done for us!!!
This is a beautiful and true message and way too seldom heard. Why is that? My soul is rejoicing! Thank you.
These neo-Cals have abandoned a central theme in Christianity: that God-given dignity always and everywhere must recognized and honored. The duty to respect the dignity of each human being, in whose nature the image of the Creator is reflected, is a duty than neo-Cal pastors cannot be ‘above’.
An old familiar hymn calls us to ‘guard each man’s dignity’ (‘man’ here means ‘human person’)
I suppose women are primarily the victims of the neo-Cal discipline of ‘shaming’ . . . witch hunting, scarlet letters, shaved heads, branding, all from a past where women were targeted by abusers who used the Church as an excuse to be bullies and maintain their control and power by publicly shaming those they could bully . . . the new neo-Cal playbook has a very bitter and rotten past, dangerous to the emotional health of all who engage in the brutality as well as their victims
Great word, and so timely, too. My heart has been strengthened by this, thank you. From the post:
This is so good! All of us look within ourselves, and it’s easy to become discouraged with ourselves or with our circumstances, and lose heart. But God is the God of all encouragement, and his Word is true (and can seem too good to be true)! When we look within ourselves, it’s so good for the Christian to find hope there!
I confess this issue right here is the crux of my complaint, and the ground I stand on in my opposition to CJ Mahaney and SGM. It boils down to this. The gospel they preach is a different gospel. It’s not this. Here is a quote from Carolyn Mahaney, “Our hearts are full of evil desires and lusts.” Full! That is was the continuous drumbeat. That’s what they wanted you marching to, looking down and not up. I’m not making this up. It’s a serious thing when the very Person who died to set us free from the power of sin, and to establish a new life within us, is turned into a subordinate, and His Gospel striped of its power. But this is what happens under the “ministry” of CJ Mahaney, despite words being bandied about that give off a different impression.
So, thank you for putting all right words together in the right way so that the Gospel of Jesus Christ shines brightly through them! A message like this helps people to apprehend the truth and to identify a false gospel that leads to sin-obsessed condemnation. But there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!
The real battle here is for the Gospel! A message like this helps us to put on the weapons of our warfare and fight the good fight!
Dear Wade,
Thank you for this post. You bring an interesting interpretation to the passages you’ve highlighted, and certainly something to think about.
However, I still wonder whether shame or regret should be entirely absent from the Christian life, especially when we do things to hurt each other. Consider the case of officials in the Catholic church, or pastors and elders in SGM. (It’s an extreme case, I know, but I think it’s on point.) Allegedly, some of them are guilty of committing sexual abuse against their congregants, and others are guilty of covering up those crimes. If, as Christians, they shouldn’t be experiencing “shame” or “regret” for their misdeeds, what should they be feeling?
“Preachers sometimes use shame to motivate and manipulate people to give more, serve more, and do more.”
Evidence that such preachers should not be in the pulpit! Intimidation and manipulation are not spiritual gifts. If a believer knows who they are in Christ, they will not be shamed into giving more, serving more, and doing more than they are led by the Spirit. Being forced through the shame game to operate outside your spiritual gifting will not enhance your life in Christ.
I once had a pastor tell me that God had spoken to him and told him to tell me that I was to take the lead role in a Christmas production at the church. I discerned the manipulation and responded that I felt absolutely no leading by God in that regard – acting was not my “spiritual gift.” The pew needs to know that it’s OK to say “No” if they feel uncomfortable when intimidation and manipulation comes from the pulpit. It is a check in your spirit to protect you from doing what you aren’t called to do. TWW continues to warn about authoritarian leaders who control – such sad examples of pastors are not beyond shaming you into submission.
I think there is a tremendous difference between preaching the Law along the lines of, “this is what you are required to do, now get your butt in gear”, vs. preaching the Gospel followed by, “because of the overwhelming love and mercy of God toward us in Christ, here is how we can love Him”.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I don’t know if that’s shame…maybe it should be repentance? I agree with you that there should be a stirring of conscience when we realize we’ve hurt someone.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I hope you don’t mind me commenting on your question. You raise an important point! Here’s what came to my mind as I read your comment:
I believe there’s a sorrow for sin that is produced by the Holy Spirit that leads one to repentance. This is a unique experience, known only by those who have come to faith in God through Christ. It’s the keystone of our fellowship with God, for its through repentance that our relationship to God is restored, and remains a vital part of our transformation. Repentance is a mark of genuine faith.
There are people who profess Christ, but who do experience repentance. Apart from repentance a person is unable to turn from what the bible calls sin. We need to recognize this difference. Saying one is a Christian does not make one a Christian. The bible says we will know the difference, which is important, so we can lead those to Christ who are not saved, and identify false Christians who masquerade themselves among us.
There is a sense of shame and regret we experience when we sin, but in repentance, that is washed away. We may have trouble letting go, but the Spirit helps us in our weakness and strengthens our faith. We also need daily encouragement, which this message provides!
But when someone claims to know God but continues in sin, it’s a sign. I’m also wary of those who show habitual partiality to those outside the fellowship of Christ, who seem callous and unconcerned with preserving the bond of peace of peace we share. CJ Mahaney, for example, is responsible for the injury he’s caused and needs to be held accountable. His friends have disdained the voices of numerous Christians and shown him favoritism. That’s remains a huge problem here, calling into question the nature of the bond that people share with CJ Mahaney.
This is a post on why Redeemer Arlington which is led by Eric Simmons broke away from SGM.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/why-redeemer-arlington-separated-from-sgm-ministries-eric-simmons-view-of-sgm-and-the-9-marks-elephant-again-in-the-room/
What I appreciated from my faith crisis and what I regret.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/what-i-appreciated-from-my-faith-crisis-and-what-i-deeply-regret/
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
This is a good question. I think the answer may be in 1John chapter 2.
Maybe the applicable part of your statement is “as Christians.” When we come to know Jesus Christ as savior and receive his Spirit, we have a new heart that does not want to sin, that feels sorrow when we sin. We don’t need to be bashed over the head with it because our motivation is already to be more free of sin in our lives than we are right now. We need to be encouraged and lifted up by the reminder of what Christ has done for us.
If a person does not show any evidence of this change (in deed, not in word) then one has to ask… do they really know the Lord? And, if not, then, yes, they should be feeling the guilt/shame that would bring them to the Lord in repentance.
I have found, in my life, though, there are some persons who do not feel guilt or shame no matter the circumstances, they are incapable of it. Strangely enough, some of these very persons are driven to become spokesmen for God.
There is a lot of shame and stigma associated with mental illness (and a few other topics) in Christianity.
The Christian Struggle with Mental Illness
http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2016/may/christian-struggle-with-mental-illness.html
Snippets:
– – – – – – – –
The first glaring issue is that Christians struggle with how to struggle with mental illness. In many ways, the church, the supposed haven for sufferers, is not a safe place for those who struggle with mental illness.
…However, according to a LifeWay Research study, about half of evangelical Christians believe that prayer and Bible study alone can heal mental illness. God can absolutely miraculously intervene and right a chemical imbalance, He can do the same for a broken leg. Yet virtually everyone acknowledges there is nothing wrong with going to the doctor for the latter.
This deep-seated belief that somehow seeking help for a mental illness can not only pit scripture and medicine as enemies, but also ostracize and dishearten the countless Christians who, along with their friends and families, struggle with these issues.
When the suffering doesn’t go away through reading the Bible or prayer, the person affected may despair of his or her spiritual ability or maturity.
“God is at work in you. If the King of Kings and Lord of Creation has chosen to take up His residence within you and to transfer the same power that raised Christ from the dead into you (entrope), then you need to simply “turn within and see His power” and re-think what you are doing.”
So the responsibility is on God to first “choose”to take up residence in us? Only then we have the ability to turn and rethink what we are doing?
By this we should assume those who speak for Him, as His paid servants , yet continue in evil patterns of behavior were never chosen by God as a residence in the first place and have no ability to behave differently?
My thanks to everyone for your comments in response to my question. I think my own ideas are pretty much in line with what others have expressed. When I spoke up, I was thinking of how C.S. Lewis addressed the topic of shame early on in “The Problem of Pain”. To him, a proper sense of shame was essential to produce repentance, and to understand Jesus’ teachings, and what He died to save us from. That has always made a lot of sense to me.
Paula Rice wrote:
siteseer wrote:
I agree with that. I remember Lewis saying, “The emotion of shame has been valued not as an emotion but because of the insight to which it leads.” To him, that insight into our condition was key, but trying to keep feeling worthless and miserable over that condition is probably a bad idea. He wasn’t “commending universal gloom”; after all, Paul commands us to rejoice in the Lord.
The attempt by some in modern Christendom to shame us into doing more, or humiliate us into believing whatever nonsense they shove down our throats, has nothing to do with joy.
Wade, thank you for this. It seems, in my experience, that ‘shaming the sheep’ is fairly standard practice in most churches. It usually drives people away from God and teaches them to rely on their own behavior for a sense of rightness with God. Dangerous ground.
Also, to all who are interested, here is the latest ed on my situatiob:
Here is my latest update. Thanks to you all, my May bills were paid and I have ordered/purchased the treatment supplies that were running out. I have food and gas and am able to stock up on the non-food items that were running low – TP, toothpaste, shampoo, etc. I am still looking for job possibilities – just found a graphic design one I’m hopeful about (will let you know if it pans out). I’m still pursuing writing, as well. The tumor is shrinking, slowly, but still. I am tired some, but doing well. I am confident that this will be dealt with. What my needs are: June’s rent is due in a week ($565), and then the usual monthly bills after that (starting on the 8th through the 14th) at $500 – they’ve gone up a little). I am still amazed at the generosity of people who know me and especially those who do not. You give me hope, which is no small thing. Sincerely, thank you all. You are beautiful in my eyes.
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
@ Jeannette Altes:
Sorry for typos. I’m using my phone…
Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher
Jeannette Altes wrote:
That’s so good to hear your report. I’m so glad that people have stepped up to help you!
Just a reminder that Shauna and Billy in TX have need of our help as well, financially and prayerfully.
(They were terribly abused by their church after the son was a child abuse victim.)
Dee has kept open the Go Fund Me campaign: https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
Thank you.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
A fear of a righteous God
And a deep sorrow that leads to repentance.
But, as we have seen, the people who are most often attempting to inflict regret and shame on others, seldom seem to ever inflict it upon themselves, no matter how heinous their acts.
People who feel regret and shame have already considered the possibility that they have erred.
It is people who already have a sensitive conscience that are more likely to fall into regret and shame, even after cleaning up whatever mess they may have caused. They are the ones most impacted when someone in the pulpit is laying out their current list of “things you should be doing.”
THEY need to know what Christ has accomplished for them. They need to know that they do not need to accept the burdens that some leader is attempting to strap upon their back.
OTOH, people whose consciences are seared – they aren’t going to feel regret and shame. Oh, they can cry and moan, and play the repentance game – temporarily – when and ONLY when they have been overwhelmingly exposed.
But, they don’t feel regret and shame.
If and when they ever actually repent, they will. Until then, it’s just crocodile tears and manipulation in order to get right back to where they were before.
“The favor of God is forever ours because of His grace to us in His Son.”
And there’s a gospel=soaked sentence if I ever read one, Wade. Thanks for getting the no-shame and all-grace message out so clearly. When it comes to how we treat others, I think there is a real Shame of Shaming.
This is good stuff. I started learning about grace and identity about 22 years ago through reading books by Bob George, Steve McVey, Jeff Vanvonderen ,and Neil Anderson. That teaching helped me to escape from the type of teaching of John MacArthur. I had heard of the distinction between guilt (about what I did) and shame (about who I am). But this is the first time I’ve seen the word entrope explained. Thank you very much.
I was working on a mindless task just now so I listened to John MacArthur’s “The Doctrine of Actual Atonement, Part 2” that is featured on his site today. It’s been a long time since I last listened to him. I am so grateful for having been delivered from that type of theology. His teaching is pure flawgic. But he makes it sound so convincing as he qualifies definitions in order to spin the real meaning on its head. These reformed teachers put so much emphasis on “sola scriptura” and then trample all over that idea by making numerous assertions that cannot be found in the Bible. But they say it comes from the Bible, so I guess we are supposed to believe them. Perhaps the Bereans would be excommunicated if they lived today.
Thanks again for the great post. It’s such a great contrast to what I heard from MacArthur this evening.
Ken F wrote:
Yes, I too am glad to be free of John MacArthur’s insufferable legalism. I have come to view his The Master’s Seminary in CA for what it is: a franchisee training ground for future “business owners” of the JMac brand to plant their own franchises (aka *churches*).
You are right, Bereans are excommunicated at this churches. It happened to several of us at my JMac/9Marxist church, including to a personal friend of JMac’s – a doctor in his 70s. JMac’s teachings came back to bite him in a very personal way. So glad to be free of it all.
Adding to the list of authors that Ken F. mentioned, I also found helpful:
*Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue
*Spiritual Abuse Recovery by Barbara M. Orlowski
*Dethroning Male Headship by Shirley Taylor
Ken F wrote:
To those who will not do their own homework by digging, comparing, using their God given reason, conscience, and internal moral compass, guys like MacArthur are very convincing. It becomes a God said it, I believe it, and that settles it thing.
Velour wrote:
Despots of any stripe, religious or non, hate and despise human freedom of any kind.
Muff Potter wrote:
John MacArthur and his franchisees have the *spin* down so well. They back it up, or so they claim, with Greek and Hebrew interpretations, which most folks don’t know. And what do you say to that?
They also claim that what they teach is *Biblical*, and as someone else posted on TWW that means that anyone who questions them is *unBiblical* and *a heretic*.
I was naive about the whole thing. I simply wanted to go to a church, be known, know others, and grow as a Christian. I didn’t realize that there were so many dangerous teachings that were being espoused.
And I sincerely regret ever having judged those who don’t go to church. Now I see why.
@ Muff Potter:
So true!
Terrorist or pedophile? This start-up says it can out secrets by analyzing faces
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/05/24/terrorist-or-pedophile-this-start-up-says-it-can-out-secrets-by-analyzing-faces/
I would also add to the list that buying in to their “method” also makes you feel superior since you are part of their “tribe”… Which has it more figured out than any other “tribe”..
Velour wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Sounds like a play for venture capital funding to me.
Why do the lexicons and translators translate entrope as “shame” in its two instances in 1 Corinthians? Maybe because they know what they are doing.
For example, the LXX (Septuagint – the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT) uses this Greek word (entrope) in Ps 35:26 and 71:13 to translate a very common Hebrew verb (bosh) which means “to be ashamed” with reference to the enemies of the Psalmist.
The translators also do not commit the root fallacy – that is, appealing to the parts of the word to determine its meaning rather than its usage. Furthermore, the translators do not commit the fallacy of semantic anachronism – that is, explaining its meaning based on a much later usage (See D.A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies).
Sorry, but as attractive as it is, I don’t find Wade’s argument compelling.
Problem with shame is that unlike guilt and like blackmail, shame requires the sin becoming known to third parties. Which leads to the first axiom of an Honor/Shame culture:
IF NOBODY KNOWS OF MY SIN, I AM NOT SHAMED.
And its honor-killing corollary:
DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
And I would add to your add:
Along with that sense of superiority, a deep fear is installed.
To leave them, is equivalent to leaving God.
While Driscoll had his run-’em-over bus, the shep/disc stuff in the 70s had a slightly different take.
When questions began to arise amongst some of the pewishioners in my former church, we soon had teachings on the children of Israel in the desert – following the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, as God led them through the desert to the Promised Land.
Our leaders were following God’s cloud and pillar of fire, any pewishioner who chose to rebel and not follow our leaders, would soon find themselves alone in the desert.
Without God.
So, you pewishioners who are questioning where your leaders are leading – well, this is the direction in which God is moving. You don’t follow your leaders? Then you aren’t following God.
Yeah, there was also fear. A lot of it.
ION:
Fans of the late Douglas Adams will be interested to note, if they didn’t know it already, that today (May 25th) is Towel Day.
IHTIH
#DontPanic
n-paul,
Entrope is a word – which by its very nature – demands “interpretation.” To look within and be transformed (it’s definition) either assumes you are looking in and finding BOSH (Hebrew word for “shame”) or you are looking in and finding DUNAMOS (Greek word for “power”
The LXX translators were translating the Hebrew word BOSH, using a Greek word (ENTROPY), ASSUMING that people would look within and feel “sick about themselves” and “ashamed about themselves.” They wrote about 100 years before the Anointed One lived, died and rose again to “make the ungodly righteous” (Paul’s words, not mine). Therefore, when I look within, I see the power of God “at work in me.”
I realize my arguments are not compelling to all – particularly anyone who desires to merge the Old Covenant Law with the New Covenant agreement that “sinners are made righteous in the eyes of God by grace (in Christ) through faith.”
Thanks for your comment.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Do YOU know where YOUR towel is, you hoopy frood?
Well, it is official. I have been blocked at SBC Today….Somehow and I know this is not right, I wear it as a badge of honor…
BL wrote:
They didn’t invoke Korah’s sin of Rebellion (and what happened to him), did they?
“If you question what I say to you —
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
Especially during the heyday of Hal Lindsay and Christians for Nuclear War:
“DON’T BE LEFT BEHIND(TM)!”
there is a huge difference between trying to shame others, and the transforming process of looking upon Him Whom we have slain with our sins and being heart-broken with grief . . . the former is pure Pharisee,
but the latter is the realization that our sins were the nails that held Christ to the Cross, and we are convicted and ‘mortified’ of what we have done, He has drawn the misery of our sin upon Himself out of His infinite mercy, and we are in great grief for having pained Him . . . which in sacred Scripture is compared to the searing grief a parent feels for the loss of a first-born son, a grief that pierces the heart and opens us to the grace of the Holy Spirit’s working in us.
we have a word in my Church: misericordia, a word that expresses the transforming repentance of looking upon Him Whom we have slain, and mourning Him with a broken heart opened to His merciful grace
Christiane wrote:
Not everyone who is trying to drive home a point is a Pharisee. At my ex-NeoCal church there was an older, retired woman who (enjoyed) freely humiliating men and women alike (all backgrounds, races). She took particular pleasure in *kicking people while they were down*. (She told people who had been laid off that they would probably become homeless and laughed in their faces. Cruel. She told them, including men executives who’d been laid off not to come to the church potluck any more “until they could contribute”. They ALWAYS brought things. She told Asian & Hispanic women who didn’t know how to bake cookies, not to come to the ladies’ Christmas event and cookie exchange. I told them to come anyway, love to have them, and just buy cookies or don’t participate in that part of the event. I told them I would teach them how to bake cookies, which they wanted to learn.)
She loved humiliating people in public. There was no stopping her, ever. People even stopped going to church because of her. I confronted her: “Have you NO SHAME?” Lighter confrontations never worked. Nothing worked.
Hi Folks,
Just a reminder that Dee has kept open the GoFundMe account for Shuana and Billy, the mother and son in TX. After the son became a crime victim by a church member, the church retaliated against this single mom and her son, and cost her house cleaning jobs.
She needs help to pay rent, bills, food, and other expenses. If you can, please help financially. (Also please pray for them.)
Thank you.
https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
In one part of the globe, every day is Towel Day. Make mine terrible!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrible_Towel
Velour wrote:
wow, it sounds like she was a very sick individual and your attempt to stop her negativity, though well-meant, would probably have failed …. she was feeding from the discomfort of others, and we all have seen this kind of person seeking control and power by kicking down others ….. where was the minister in all of this??? She needed a lot of help. I once had a principal that went off of the deep end and said horrible things to the staff, attempting to humiliate them,
but she was asked to resign because SOMEONE in the school system realized she was in trouble emotionally. When people get like that, they are very ill indeed. The more they victimize others, the worse they dig themselves deeper into trouble. Perhaps this lady needed a private therapeutic ‘confrontation’ by the whole pastoral staff intending to help her? Seems like her behavior was a bid for attention AND a huge cry for help.
Christiane wrote:
Thank you for your insightful post. Yes, that was my conclusion about that abusive woman church member: She needed professional help, I think to deal with all of her rage, anger, and losses in her own childhood that she’d never dealt with.
The (NeoCal, authoritarian, Patriarchy-espousing) minister was beyond useless in dealing with her. He saw nothing wrong with her. She was a friend. He said that because he wasn’t there when she said these things to people that it hadn’t happened. Ohhh puhhhhlllssseee.
A verbally abusive bully himself, former church members (men and women) and church staff said that he screamed, bullied, and threatened them in meetings and openly lied about them. Birds of a feather flock together…
__
“The Winning Of Souls Is Wise?”
hmmm…
 The Scriptures tell us that Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.  This preaching and spreading of Jesus’ gospel can be done by any able bodied spirit lead christian with a desire to win souls!
No PHD or ordination certificate is required!
(grin)
Just read-up, pray-up, N’ go share!
P.S. The Angels in heaven rejoice over the salvation of a single soul…
Let there be light!
ATB  🙂
Sopy
—
__
“Growing in Christ?”
hmmm…
“I didn’t realize that there were so many dangerous teachings that were being espoused…”Â
–Velour
 May I suggest the use of Logos Bible software products to aid and comfort you in your investigation? (Logos.com)
ATB
Sopy
—
Christiane wrote:
*edited by moderator.* That "old" hymn was written in 1966. It's not old.
K.D. wrote:
You brought up the CR negatively. That will do it. I have yet to meet an SBC Pastor who has the courage to do that. It did not help that you have actual experience with it in a seminary and church. You are not just another ignorant pewsitter. :o)
The CR is the only unifying event for both the Calvinists and the Free Will folks left in the SBC! Congrats on being gone!
@ n_paul:
When I had time, I was going to research this, too. D.A. Carson is not a credible source in my view. Further research is necessary.
Wade Burleson wrote:
Again, this is the root fallacy – you cannot claim the definition is “to look within and be transformed” based on the etymology of the word. The meaning of words depend on how they are used. A very good reason to understand this word as meaning “shame” is based on its use in the LXX.
You also write:
The LXX translators were translating the Hebrew word BOSH, using a Greek word (ENTROPY), ASSUMING that people would look within and feel “sick about themselves” and “ashamed about themselves.”
So instead of giving a straightforward translation of BOSH (“be ashamed”) with an equivalent Greek word (which I argue that they actually do – using ENTROPE), you are suggesting that they made a convoluted translation of “be ashamed” with a word you claim means “to look within and be transformed” – and the Greek readers would know (but only before Christ came) that this word ENTROPE actually was communicating “be ashamed” (which is clearly the meaning in the Psalms I cite).
Again, sorry, this isn’t very convincing to me.
K.D. wrote:
Congratulations! Boz T at G.R.A.C.E./Christian/attorney/law school professor/former prosecutor (sex crimes)/child abuse advocate, said that my getting excommunicated from my former NeoCal church over protesting the pastors bringing their friend a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer to church, membership, leadership, carte blanche access to all activities and kids, was *a badge of honor*. Woo hoo!!!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Oh, but, yes! More than once. We got the full dose of:
The rebellion of Korah.
The rebellion of Miriam & Aaron.
Touch not My anointed ones.
The Jezebel Spirit.
The example of Naaman being OUR example when it comes to obedience.
Rebellion is as witchcraft.
To question your need to obey your leaders means that you are not trusting God.
Any questions about teachings and practices in general was the leading indicator that your were both rebellious AND deceived.
BL wrote:
Oh yes. Same thing at my former NeoCalvinist church. The NeoCals pastors/elders were fond of telling us that they would give an account to God for our souls (what???) and therefore we were to obey because it was this grievous task ahead of them. Liars.
Ken F wrote:
Flawgic- I love that, it’s the perfect descriptor.
theShield wrote:
When the last model of iPhone or previous release of an App is Ancient History…
n_paul wrote:
I’m not saying you are a poseur, though I certainly consider it a possibility. A means of dispelling this would be to tell us the basis for your expertise in Koine Greek (i.e., your education, from whence it comes, your experience in translation and interpretation).
I’m no expert in translations of ancient languages, but having checked into this, Mr. Burleson’s interpretation of the word Entrope is by no means unique–on the other hand, your apparent contention that the etymology of a word is irrelevant to its meaning is unique.
Lydia wrote:
I wrote a blog on it and I was amazed at how many people, even here in East Texas have been hurt or abused or just left out by the local SBC Churches. The entire thing is about power and control…and the Baptist’s fear of losing it.
theShield wrote:
It’s 2016, so 1966 is at least pre-millenial. 🙂
The basis for honoring the dignity of all human persons regardless of their circumstances comes from the Church’s teaching that human persons are made in the image of God;
hence their dignity comes from bearing His image.
I expect I would have used the word ‘ancient’ or the term ‘from ancient Church’ to speak of a hymn that was what you might consider ‘old’ . . . a hymn like the Phos Hilaron, perhaps
sorry if I confused you there, Joe
@ Christiane:
I appreciated your thoughtfulness and post regarding the hymn, and of course your other posts too.
Your meaning was clear.
@ K.D.:
Can you share the link?
n_paul wrote:
The message of the post is not dependent on that word or verse, it is congruent with the entire NT. Not sure why you are giving this one word such weight; are you arguing that it’s ok to drive believers by shame?
The Holy Spirit is our teacher and is described as comforter, not shamer.
siteseer wrote:
Well said!
And well done, I might add.
As someone who can often lose sight of the big picture, I’m often distracted by the gnats that are often flung out.
So, while I was concentrating on straining out that gnat that suddenly appeard, I *greatly* appreciate you bringing my attention back to the CAMEL. 🙂
.
In synchronizing seeming discrepancies in the Scripture, one always looks to the clear and plain teaching to understand the seemingly difficult and obscure passages. I am not only in agreement with siteseer, I believe my explanation of the two “obscure and poorly translated “shaming” passages of Paul” reconcile the those two passages using the word “entropy” with the entire New Testament.
I may not have convinced n-paul, but I myself am convinced.
🙂
Somethings Wade says here triggers a good memory of a kind from a Firelight song: “I want to take control, but I know better…”
Whoa-prayers for all in Enid-just saw torbado was near there! Hope all ok.
Wade Burleson wrote:
I appreciate your teaching, Wade, it was a great encouragement to me to be reminded of these truths.
Law Prof wrote:
I’d be interesting in seeing who else translates the Koine Greek word “entrope” as Mr. Burleson does: “To look within and be transformed” – I see this in no Koine Greek lexicons (not Classical Greek). Based on its use in the LXX Psalms passages I cite above, it is evident that “entrope” is being used for “shame” by NT times.
My contention is not that etymology is irrelevant – but that it is well recognized that etymology does not determine the meaning of a word – its usage does (and that usage may or may not be in keeping with its etymology).
Note that I am simply defending our modern NT translations, every single one of which translate it “shame”. I am not suggesting something unique – Mr. Burleson is. He is the one saying that all of our modern translators got it wrong (those who clearly have the expertise you are concerned with).
Here is one link that discusses this word and its range of meaning. It seems that this is an instance where context determines meaning. 🙂
I think that Paul is instructing the Corinthians to examine themselves to see if their behavior is consistent with an identity in Christ. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, and he has removed both our shame due to our sin and the shame we have brought upon the name of God, our Creator, by our sin (in terms of shame/honor culture.) In the process of redeeming humanity, God is redeeming his name. However, we do still sin, and we should examine ourselves. The point of that exercise is not to wallow in shame but to see that our lives do not match our Example who is Christ.
The Holy Spirit is doing a work in our lives. We should want to examine ourselves to see how we are progressing in our walk. That is focusing on the positive aspects of change (into the fullness of being a New Creation in Christ) and not the negative aspect of shame or confusion/disorder brought about by our sin.)
Link: http://biblehub.com/greek/1788.htm
siteseer wrote:
Or somebody’s arguing as a lawyer.
Remember the famous quote “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is”?
To a lawyer, that makes perfect sense; Law is a profession of exact definitions and minimal ambiguity. In Law, you have to define a beard by number of hairs for an exact definition — so many hairs, a beard; one hair below the definition, no beard.
Law requires precise defintions. Natural systems (and reality in general) have a lot more ambiguity and grey areas.
Gram3,
Bingo.
Wrong word:
http://biblehub.com/greek/1791.htm
n_paul wrote:
The fact that “respect” is one of the listed definitions is interesting…
n_paul wrote:
But is actually is possible that all of our modern translations got it wrong. Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t mean it is right. It’s certainly a data point, but it’s not a proof.
Here is another great example. Gal 2:20 talks about our faith “in” Christ. But there is very good grammatical evidence that the better translation is faith “of” Christ. This was pointed out to me several months ago independently from completely different sources. Try doing an internet search on “Faith in Christ or faith of Christ” and you’ll get plenty of hits. It’s a big difference whether it’s our individual faith that saves us or whether it’s Christ’s faith or faithfulness that saves us. I believe the reason so many modern translations use “in” rather than “of” is because we live in a very individualistic culture. Cultural biases are certain to impact Bible translators, especially when the original Greek and Hebrew are not as clear as we modern’s prefer – we want to fill in the gaps rather than let it be ambiguous. I’m no expert, but I’ve seen enough by now to know that there are cases where we don’t have airtight proof that a particular translation is the right one.
n_paul wrote:
You are correct in that I linked to 1788 rather than 1791. The words are related, and according to your link, 1791 is from 1788, so I clicked on the link for 1788 and then mistakenly pasted that page. As far as I can see, your case is not helped by the distinction, but I may be missing something. One of Paul’s recurring themes is to examine ourselves, compare ourselves to the one whose character we should bear. Am I missing some place where Paul directs people to shame other people into Christ’s likeness?
I am not sure of the point you are trying to make.
 __
Jesus Said: “I am The Way, The Truth, And The Life…” ?
hmmm…
 The scriptures have a vast amount to teach us; studying them matures our judgement and frees us from blind submission to present-day 501(c)3 professional pastorial prejudices.
huh?
On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand?
What?
Be very, very, careful who you follow; following certain 501(c)3 pastoral professionals today could very well wind you up in a ditch. (sadface)
ATB
Sopy
—
I don’t often comment here, but I generally read the posts, and many of the comments. I do read Wade Burleson’s blog, whose gentle spirit and ministry I truly admire. Here are my thoughts about this post and about n_paul’s response…
Shaming people into changing, publicly humiliating them, being authoritarian and trying to lord it over people’s faith seems to be so prevalent in churches nowadays. And it is wrong, I totally get that. I’ve had some experience of it too. Abuse stinks, and so much more when God’s name is used to endorse it.
I don’t think anyone here had a problem with these thoughts, n_paul included. What I don’t really see is why, when respected reference materials indicate one sense of that Greek word, we should assume all are wrong, and all Bible translations are wrong, and Wade’s interpretation of those two verses based on the word meaning he proposes is the right one. (And again, I mean no offense, Wade Burleson, I do appreciate your messages so much!) And even if we can’t agree on the particular meaning of the word in those two passages, the point can still be made that it’s wrong to try to shame and humiliate people into changing anyway…
While I fully believe spiritual abuse is terrible, with all my love and respect for Wade B., I can’t agree that once you’re a Christian there should be no place in your life for ever feeling shame or regret (at least, that’s what I understand from his post, sorry if I interpret it wrongly). I really can’t accept this for the life of me. Yes, I am a child of God, and yes, He sees me as perfect because of Christ’s perfect life in my stead and His perfect death… but when I hurt someone and I realize it, it’s all right to feel regret and shame. Because as a child of God I could be more loving than that, and I wasn’t. Of course, that doesn’t mean wallowing in guilt for ever, but if I don’t feel regret, something is very wrong with me.
Someone once said that there is a great difference between how the devil accuses you and how the Spirit of God convicts you of sin. The devil accuses you in order to destroy you, to drive you to despair, and pour guilt onto you over things that are indefinite, unclear, nebulous, so it’s nothing definite to even fight against. The Spirit of God brings to mind specific sins, and convicts of sin for the purpose of restoring relationships, not for driving away. But that conviction of sin done by the Spirit of God (while I still have the assurance that I am God’s child) involves sorrow or regret over the sin committed and shame that I did it. And I use shame in the sense of “the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself” or “a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong”, “ability to feel guilt, regret, or embarrassment” (definitions from online dictionaries).
Gram3 wrote:
My point is simply that the word entrope (1791) is a noun defined as “shame” in the lexicon you linked to. This was my original point that you responded to. I still see no reason to understand it in 1 Corinthians and LXX Psalms as anything but “shame”.
Monica,
Superb comment.
BTW, I realize I could be wrong in my interpretation of Paul’s two “shame” passages – and so could those who think I’m wrong (e.g. “Be wrong”). A workman who “rightly divides” the Word of God will always be ready for an answer for the hope that is within him. For those who struggle with shame, my post may be helpful. I believe I’m right, but respect those, including n-paul,, who disagree.
In terms of the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin, I would ask “Why does the Spirit convict?” The biblical answer, seemingly contrary to the opinion of many, is “for our good.” Most think the Spirit convicts us for the Spirit’s good. However, the only grief the Spirit ever feels is FOR us; you don’t need to hand the Spirit a tissue when you sin for His hurt, or His pain, or His unhappiness. He grieves FOR you. So I believe you and I will never escape the bondage of sin until we are enthralled and ravished by the mercy, love and grace of God for sinners. That means no more guilt and shame. It ended at the cross. Stop sinning because you’ve find out there’s no greater high than the Most High!
This is opposite of what organized religion might tell us, but I believe it’s the heart of true Christ – in – I – and – you.
 __
Is Guilt Or Shame Sometimes Useful In Our Walk With Christ, Perhaps?
hmmm…
 If you have the Spirit of Christ, God is at work in you. Â
True.Â
 Yet, if you fail to measure up (miss the mark) to scriptural guidelines, guilt and shame can possibly lead to a godly remedy, that is to informing you as to the correct scriptural assessment thereby positively effecting your attitude, outlook, and behavior.
 Please note that God, nor the scriptures never expect an individual to wallow (dwell) in guilt or shame. We are however, asked by scripture to posess the heavenily possession brought about by the work of Christ Jesus on our behalf; hope is thereby not deferred, and the possibility of abundant health is rendered to the individual.
(Please see the scriptures for details…)
ATB
Sopy
—
n_paul wrote:
“Shame” is not the only meaning that Strong and Thayer’s list. They also include “respect” and “confusion.” That wide semantic range should give us pause to carefully consider the context of the word within the immediate text, the book of 1 Corinthians, the book of 2 Corinthians, the entire works of Paul, the entire NT, and the entire canon. Certainly the Septuagint should be a reference in the consideration of the meaning, but should it be conclusive on its own?
Has anybody on here ever listened to Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones? Although he is reformed I absolutely love him and am always here convicted by his messages… I do not care for John McArthur and find him arrogant and full of himself….Lloyd-Jones? Never! Can anyone comment???
Apparently the big dogs of the reformed movement like Lloyd-Jones which upsets my apple cart…..
Gram3 wrote:
Which of those other meanings could fit the context of the two 1 Corinthians passages under discussion? It doesn’t look like either of them do to me.
And neither of those possible meanings is anywhere close to what is being suggested by Mr. Burleson.
Debbylynn wrote:
I’ve read MLJ, but not listened. Can you please post a link to where you’re listening?
I completely agree with you about JMac. I took my MacArthur Study Bible, ripped it up, and tossed it in the recyling container. Ditto for all of his other books.
@Wade Burleson Thank you for your kind answer!
Look him up on google Velour… I think the link is Banner of Trust…
Wade Burleson wrote:
WORD!
n_paul wrote:
The concept of shame in a shame/honor culture has to do with one’s identity, and specifically one’s identity in relation to other people, whether that is the tribe or the family or some other group. One of Paul’s recurring themes is confusion over one’s identity In Christ. The Corinthians had a problem with behavior that is inconsistent with their identity In Christ. They were *confused* and needed to look within to see whose they were.
Shame/honor cultures are about who you are which is dependent on *whose* you are. That may resonate more with folks from the South and places like Texas which were settled by Southerners. Old South culture was shame/honor based. It mattered very much “who are your people.” You were expected to live according to the way of “your people.” In the case of the Corinthians Paul had to point out that they were behaving like the pagans they once were. They had been transformed into New Creations and were to be conformed to the image of Christ rather than their tribe, family, or ethnic group.
I think that is basically what Wade is saying. We should examine ourselves to see if we look like Christ. In no case is there cause for someone who is In Christ to feel shame or to be shamed by another. I have no idea why the KJV translated that word as shame. Perhaps this is an instance of over-literal word-for-word translation that does not convey the thought accurately. But that is another topic. IMO the word “shame” does not fit with 15:34 in particular. But you have your opinion, and others have theirs. 🙂
@ Gram3:
Someone dear to me used to say on appropriate occasions, “Straighten up and fly right.” Similar idea.
Gram3 wrote:
Unlike Guilt and like blackmail, Shame requires more than one.
“If Nobody Knows of my Sin, I AM NOT SHAMED.”
Which goes hand-in-hand with coverups and pretending facades.
And (in the most extreme honor/shame cultures) “Dead Men Tell No Tales”.
And didn’t the Church originally function as a tribe or family to those without either?
Gram3 wrote:
I’ll just point out that you are using the definition “confused” from “entrepo” (word 1788 – which is listed under the 1791 listing – it is a verb – note the “from entrepo” which links to 1788) not from “entrope” (word 1791 – the noun).