"@CJ Mahaney hopes to care for pastors who are currently suffering."
@T4GOnline Tweet (Screen Shot)
Spotlight Receives Two Oscars – One For Best Picture!
The 88th annual Academy Awards were presented last night, and Spotlight received two Oscars! (see screen shots below)
I had a feeling that Spotlight might bring home the top honor and expressed my sentiments about the documentary in last Monday's post. (see below)
We have to wonder whether the movie Spotlight is inspiring those who have been hurt in some way to (finally) speak out. Although I have never been enamored with Hollywood, I have to express my tremendous gratitude to those who brought Spotlight to the big screen. No doubt it was a collaborative effort, and I am praying that the movie will receive the Oscar for Best Picture this weekend. Spotlight and the journalists the movie depicts are highly deserving of such accolades. It's way past time to shine the spotlight on child sexual abuse. How ironic that it is Hollywood which is bringing it to the forefront.
I have now seen the movie twice and cannot recommend it highly enough. When I watched it in the theater, I had a hard time keeping up with the numerous characters and their connections to each other; however, the second time around, I followed it without any difficulty whatsoever.
For those concerned about the R rating, rest assured there are no graphic scenes. I believe Spotlight was given this rating because during their interviews with Boston Globe reporters, a couple of the victims described in detail how they were molested. My younger daughter watched the movie with my husband and me, and I feel strongly that we need to expose our children to the reality of pedophilia so they will be forewarned (of course, age appropriateness is important). This terrible crime has been cloaked in secrecy for far too long. It must be exposed and immediately reported to the property authorities!
T4G Honors Mahaney by Keeping Him in the Spotlight
Just in case you were planning to attend the Together for the Gospel (T4G) gathering and have not yet registered, today is the last day to sign up for the bargain price of $249. Tomorrow, the price of the golden ticket will jump to $329. Remember, this price just gets you in the door. Those attending have to get there, stay there, and eat there for three or more days (if they attend the pre-conference). Students do get a discount on the registration fee (and courses credit!) We would imagine that in quite a few cases churches are picking up the entire tab for their pastors who attend, perhaps without congregants even knowing about it. Oh, and let's not forget about the gynormous bookstore!
The T4G organizers owe a debt of gratitude to social media, which appears to be their primary means of advertising. They not only have a Facebook account, but they Tweet up a storm! It has been interesting to follow their Twitter account as the registration deadline approaches. For example, over the weekend three Tweets were sent out regarding the same Mahaney promo clip. See screen shots below.
Here is the short clip of Mahaney that T4G leaders seem desperate for their followers to see.
So Mahaney wants to help pastors who are suffering? We are left wondering if he means Neo-Cal pastors who have been hired by Non-Calvinist congregations and stealthily attempt to conform the church to the T4G standard? Some congregations are finally waking up to such cunning tactics and challenging the changes that their newly hired pastors are making. Will these pastors be getting together in Louisville to compare notes about their 'unregenerate' congregations?
Let's see.. who is T4G more concerned about? Suffering pastors who bring it on themselves or the victims of child sex abuse? We believe we know whom Almighty God favors, and it's not the pastors… Think… millstone.
As an aside, it was recently announced that R.C. Sproul will not be appearing at the 2016 T4G. Here is a screen shot of that update.
We leave you with this to ponder. We know that the T4G boyz believe in God's sovereignty over everything, so we have a question. Why do you think Almighty God arranged for Hollywood (of all people!) to vote Spotlight as best picture just weeks before T4G is planning to feature C.J. Mahaney on stage? Is Our Heavenly Father trying to tell the Neo-Cals something of utmost importance? We believe so…
First!
Spotlight was my favorite of the Oscars as well.
I think I smell a sequel, “All the Pastors Bald Heads”.
I hope so too.
I watched that video of C.J. Mahaney. Words fail. What about a message for suffering church members who have been abused by their pastors and elders? Or don’t the pew peons deserve that?
Fear is keeping me from seeing this movie. I am just beginning psychotherapy and counseling for all the abuse I’ve gone through since the age of 4. As for Mahaney, he can kiss my royal A.
What age would you think it would be good to take one’s daughters? How old is your daughter?
I’m also glad that Spotlight won. It’s a virtually flawless movie. However, it is not a documentary. Among other things, if it were a doc, it would employ the actual people involved, not actors. It was nice that the reporter portrayed by Mark Ruffalo was on the stage with the cast after the Best Picture announcement. There may have been other “real people” there; not sure.
I’m sure CJ knows a lot about suffering through persecution. He really does know how Job must have felt.
If, OTOH, all the reports about child rape, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, blackmail, influence-buying, cover-up are true …
Maybe he shouldn’t be playing the Job card after all, lest people start talking about those in SGM who must really have felt like Job.
Even if the Morales case was the only one in SGM – which is highly doubtful -, after the Morales court case and the testimonies there, particularly that of Grant Layman, anybody but the T4G crowd would advise him to keep a (very) low profile.
@ Darlene:
It can be overwhelming to fathom the depths of their narcissism. It is hard to believe just how ingrained it is. . Mahaney has set himself up as the victim for whom God is using to encourage other pastor-victims.
It is mind boggling, isn’t it? They live in their own alternative universe. It almost makes me believe in total depravity (inability). Nah. I still believe Mahaney has a choice in his behavior.
And Mohler and Dever have choices, too.
“You don’t get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.”
― L. Ron Hubbard
Last week at SBTS Dever announced that the T4G conference will be a sell-out.
Speaking of sell-outs….
check out these mug shots – http://t4g.org/speakers/
JeffB wrote:
I didn't know a documentary had to feature the actual people involved.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/documentary
Our Baptist pastor at the church we attend at the coast (of North Carolina) told us that when they interview pastors for positions at their church, they have to question and question again if the applicant is Reformed because they are not forthcoming of their reformed beliefs because they know they won’t get a job! Sneaky, sneaky.
I followed the link above provided by Todd Wilhelm, and noticed something interesting. You just can’t make this stuff up….if you scroll way way down past the “mugshots :)” to where they list the breakout sessions, in the second session Dever and Leeman are leading a talk called “Don’t be a 9Marxist”. They’ve co-opted the term!
@ Bookbolter:
Great observation! We have mentioned that here before.
@ molly245:
My daughter is grown. I think teenagers should be able to handle this sensitive topic. They are exposed to so much these days anyways. Parents know their children best.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
The way they have been hounding people to attend through social media, I'm not surprised. I have even been getting T4G posts on Facebook! I visited the T4G Facebook page once or twice, an voilá, I'm a conference prospect. 😉
@ Bookbolter:
It is basically an appeal to be a benevolent dictator instead of a dictator.
Gus wrote:
Exactly. And Deb, I like how you said: “Let’s see.. who is T4G more concerned about? Suffering pastors who bring it on themselves or the victims of child sex abuse? We believe we know whom Almighty God favors, and it’s not the pastors… Think… millstone.” As CJ always says: “Let’s keep the main thing, the main thing.” (the gospel) James, inspired by God says: “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.” One could strongly make the case that the “widows and orphans” of today include child sexual abuse victims and domestic abuse victims (battered wives). To fight for their justice is pure religion — without that your “gospel” is empty.
Loren Haas wrote:
That needs to be a the title of a post!
WaitingForTheTrumpet2 wrote:
I certainly understand. Let me assure you that there are no scenes depicting molestation. It is merely the reporters getting the information and deciding to run with story. There are a couple of scenes in which a former victim, now adult, describes what transpired.
WaitingForTheTrumpet2 wrote:
I have to admit, this made me giggle as well as stand up and say “Kudos to a strong person.”
@ molly245:
Pur daughters are older. I think middle school would be appropriate if they understand the subject matter.
JeffB wrote:
I heard that several were present. I will try to look up where I read that today.
Gus wrote:
I have already started blabbing about this on Twitter.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Well, he is sure correct. They are all sell outs.
@ Janice McKenzie:
This is going on all over the country. The Deebs have a theory that the North American Mission Board may be giving money to church plants that are ONLY reformed.
Are they going to have another of those North Korean Busby Berkely numbers honoring The Humble One?
Bookbolter wrote:
They know they are in trouble. Church discipline is getting a bad rap. I am going to add to their heartburn tomorrow when I talk about the church discipline of Shauna and Billy. That’s right. They got in trouble at the church for *discussing* what happened to them. And this is a church that adores 9 Marks.
Finny thing-they still have not answered for Todd Wilhelm’s discipline. As far as I am concerned, they are 9Marxists until they do.
I bought the movie Spotlight right before the Oscars on Sunday night. I hope to watch it sometime this week. I am just waiting for a movie to be made about SGM and all its problems. Like what was written in the Washingtonian. Now that would be a big best seller movie. I know we all would buy it. Or maybe a movie made about Mars Hill and Driscoll. I won’t be holding my breath till these movies come out.
No matter what they say about the conference I am sure they are nervous about the article of the sex abuse. They are being exposed and may put on a good front but I bet at night they google the blogs and worry about what is happening……..
Folks
If any of you use Twitter, you can make your feelings known by using #T4G2016.
I would love to get a bunch of kids who grew up at CLC to go and stand up when CJ speaks and stare him down.
joy wrote:
That would be awesome. Get Marcia Griffeth too. She is a tiger!
Saw Spotlight. Was great!
This new Pope impresses me.
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/mar/01/vatican-newspaper-spotlight-oscars-best-picture?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Version+CB+header&utm_term=159542&subid=7987390&CMP=ema_565
“Not all monsters wear cassocks. Paedophilia does not necessarily arise from the vow of chastity,” wrote the editorial’s author, Lucetta Scaraffia. “However, it has become clear that in the Church some are more preoccupied with the image of the institution than of the seriousness of the act.”
Dever, Mohler, Duncan, Piper, Anyabwile, Platt, DeYoung, MacArthur and CJ could learn a thing or two from him.
Good Lord! These T$G guys will stick together to the death! I suppose the YRR will look at Mahaney on stage and see one who has suffered for the reformation; after all, his good name and reputation have been attacked by non-Calvinists and watchbloggers for years! I suppose Mahaney will play on the sympathies of the attendees as a suffering victim. He will speak as an expert to the suffering pastors in the crowd because he is suffering so much by those who are trying to silence him. He will sling snot and feel their pain. His talk will be both entertaining and inspirational to the hurting crowd of young and restless. Performers have a way of accomplishing that … Mahaney has successfully performed himself out of a ministry hole, while the real SGM victims still cry for justice. The YRR, unmoved by the Mahaney/SGM scandal will run and weep all the way to Mahaney’s book table after the plenary session. Their “We Protest” t-shirts flapping in the wind. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.
To identify the “suffering” of New Calvinist pastors with those of Job is a stretch. I wonder if Mahaney will touch on the suffering of Christian martyrs, such as the Anabaptists; they suffered tremendous persecution at the hands of the early reformers. To question Calvin’s teaching resulted in imprisonment, beating, or death.
There’s a strange teaching about “suffering” going round in New Calvinist ranks. An SBC-YRR church plant near me talks about it all the time, almost to the point of ‘requiring’ that their members suffer in some form or another if they are truly the “elect.” Don’t get me wrong, the history of Christianity chronicles many who have suffered for the cause of Christ … but for the cause of a movement or the cause of a theology or for some young whippersnapper pastor still wet behind the ears?
I have wondered if anyone is planning on a protest of the T4G conference with signs being carried and pamphlets being handed out?
Janice McKenzie wrote:
Whoops. I typed my last comment in Janice’s block quote. My comments to her comment starts with “Indeed! …”
dee wrote:
Yes, but for the wrong thing … selling out to New Calvinism is not the right thing.
dee wrote:
Well, it would be tough to find that information at NAMB … I doubt that they have check-boxes for “Reformed” or “Non-Calvinist” on their church planter application form. However, NAMB’s current leader Kevin Ezell is Al Mohler’s former pastor … think about it.
Just wanted to post this again to encourage anyone, but particularly Maryland Residents to come and testify for extending Civil Statutes of Limitations on Child Sexual Abuse crimes:
Next Tuesday, March 8th, 2016 at 1:00 p.m. the Maryland Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee will hear testimony about this proposed legislation (MD-SB69 – see link below) to extend Child Sexual Abuse – Statute of Limitations. Senator Robert Young, supported by victim advocacy organizations, such as SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests and Pastors) are attempting again to extend the civil statute of limitations.
Currently, in Maryland in most cases the civil SOLs are 3 years after a victim turns 18. As a mother of a sexual abuse victim, I know that is not enough time for a survivor to attempt to receive justice. This law was the primary law used to stop our lawsuit the first time around. The primary forces lobbying AGAINST it are the Roman Catholic Church! (Hmmm, I wonder why?? Watch the 2016 Academy Award’s Best Picture, “Spotlight”)
Victims are often not able come forward about their trauma into their adulthood – as seen in the recent criminal conviction of Nate Morales, the former worship and youth leader of CLC formerly of SGM (now SGC) – his victims did not come forward until their late 30s and early 40s. If they had not been able to receive a criminal conviction in this case, they would not have been able to sue in a civil court either – within the current statutes.
Criminal and civil laws are like the two bookends that hold up our judicial system to enable justice for victims and protect the society. Come join me in testifying for the extending of MD’s Civil SOLs on child sexual abuse.
Thank you.
Text of proposed bill: https://legiscan.com/MD/bill/SB69/2016
@ Deb:
Spotlight could be called a ducudrama. If it were a documentary, it would consist mainly of archival materials and interviews with the people involved. This is not to say that Spotlight is inaccurate – just that all docudramas take some liberty with details in order to tell a story entertainingly. Some take a LOT of liberty with the facts, and they are usually called out on it. From all I’ve read, Spotlight is not one of those. I’m almost positive that there was a note at the end of film saying that certain minor aspects were changed. This is standard.
http://the-difference-between.com/documentary/docudrama
Max wrote:
NAMB – Spreading the Word of Calvin.
“care for pastors”
Poor suffering “pastors”. His introduction is revealing of their mindset, IT IS all about them.
With so many stories of real suffering caused by their “pastoral” leadership, weighed as a whole they are the cause of a great deal of suffering. If they want to use suffering as a measure, some of these “pastors” will have to make some huge sacrifices and suffer greatly to tip the scales in the favor of their clique.
Mahaney shouldn’t even argue their works outweigh the collateral damage, but for him to stand at a podium and say “look at us, look at us, see how we suffer” just turns my stomach.
Janice McKenzie wrote:
Wasn’t this called “Takkiyeh” in Arabic? Where the Jihadis would play fast and loose with the definition to where it became “Lying is Not a Sin if It Advances the Cause of Jihad and Islam”? And the reaction of distrust that followed among non-Muslims?
In the words of the Sawi of New Guinea, “fattening them for the slaughter.”
Or a more secular example: the Know Nothings in 19th Century American politics, whose response to any question was “I Know Nothing”.
Or the generic stealth takeover of Front Groups, Plausible Deniability, and Disinformation for The Cause? (Saw that all the time — and suspicion and paranoia about it — during the Cold War.)
Bill M wrote:
With only last year’s model of Gulfstream 650…
And a parsonage smaller than the Furtick Mansion…
Janice McKenzie wrote:
As it is known in some circles as…” Lying for Jesus” or in this case, ” Lying for Calvin.”
Did anyone see Lada Gaga’s performance? i think i stopped breathing. i was so moved by it.
the timing on all of this, the raw honesty of it all (at last), is quite extraordinary.
the church my kids attend (for youth group purposes) just did a sermon called “Love Your Abusers”. I didn’t hear it, so don’t know exactly what was said — and dread finding out. but Spotlight seems to be influencing sermon material.
sure wish church people could resist the urge to turn this into sanctification task lists & lessons for victims.
with Lady Gaga’s amazing performance (i don’t think it was a performance), i can imagine (some) church people pulling their religious hats firmly down on their heads and rejecting and objecting to it simply because she had mean eyes(!).
Max wrote:
People cannot even get a figure on how much went to Reformed only Acts29 plants over the years. And that does not include the other YRR Akin son dynasty, Baptist 21, or former Acts 29,Sojourn, now a new Reformed only network.
Bill M wrote:
This is true. I once heard one of the Gospel Glitterati make a comment about pastors suffering for the gospel. An older and wiser and wiser Christian corrected him (they wouldn’t be a her, of course!), saying that it may be the lot of ALL Christians at some point in life. Glitterati retort: But ESPECIALLY the pastors. He then casually threw around a proof text to make his position unassailable. (It was in Luke, but I couldn’t find anything there; perhaps he was thinking of 2 Timothy 1:8)
Sorry about the fuzzy recall; just the retort of ESPECIALLY pastors (as opposed to the entire body of Christ) stuck in my head. It showed a clear bias towards the teaching role as having a greater significance than “laity” who have other gifts – at least to this famous person
Or, as HUG says often, “Rank hath its privileges”
@ Bill M:
Suffering? Many YRR live in the bubble, have no supervision all week long while they tweet and Instagram guru quotes/pics to each other. They exist conference to conference for their high. They whine about the back breaking work of cutting and pasting Piper sermons and they evangelize and counsel in Starbucks. They bring in seminary friends who all take over and then do nothing. They find lone trip mission opportunities so they can travel on church dime. I am still waiting to see all the church planting opportunities in India, Romania, Poland, Spain and South America that were lauded as essential.
Tough life.
Lydia wrote:
These guys wouldn’t know an honest day’s work if it were to hit them in the face….and why people so adore these guys is beyond me?
Lydia wrote:
A few weeks ago, T$C featured a video of David Platt preaching, justifying his need to preach in Northern India for a short-term (1 week) trip, lest 480 million souls perish in hell. Their souls are indeed very valuable, but I find it despicable for Platt to co-opt their worth only to support a massive guilt trip and prop up his image
This was posted to the Grace to You blog yesterday.
Abusive Shepherds
http://www.gty.org/blog/B160229
The post’s author quotes MacArthur from his study Bible notes:
The author himself writes:
@ Chemie:
It is all about them. Plus he needs to garner some foreign mission bonafides since he was appointed to the IMB in a “radical” 6 figure job when his former church did not support the program. In his world, one week works.
Frauds
@ Chemie:
I am confused though. Platt believes the elect were chosen before the world was formed. So how could his preaching make any difference?
This just came across my Facebook feed. All I can say is what the……..
I simply don’t get the entitlement mentality of these people, Catholic or Protestant.
https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/Media_and_Resources/Press_Releases/Press_Release/?pid=2341
elastigirl wrote:
Lady Gaga is a rape victim,too.
Lydia wrote:
This is where it gets tricky for the Calvinist, Lydia. The Great Commission to preach the Gospel is a command. It is a command given by Jesus; to ignore it would be a sin. To the reformed mind, preaching their gospel (Calvinism = Gospel) is the means by which the elect will be harvested. They don’t know who the elect are, sometimes doubting themselves if they have been elected, so they occasionally cast a net that sounds like the gospel (= evangelism to them). Of course, they can do that without leading folks to pray a sinner’s prayer, which Platt rejects as necessary. We once attended a reformed church, without knowing it at the time in our youthful ignorance … the pastor periodically gave an altar call and invited folks to Christ (every couple of months) just in case he was wrong. That’s why there are so many 4-point Calvinists … they just aren’t sure about “L” in TULIP (limited atonement); to gamble with lost souls in light of the Great Commission is dangerous ground. The whole doctrine is just strange; it amazes me that so many folks fall for it. It is risky, indeed, for a pastor to give a lifetime of ministry to it. If he’s wrong …
Bill M wrote:
It really really does.
Chemie wrote:
As Lydia has noted in the comment stream, such preaching (from a Calvinist perspective) makes little sense. As they stand on a platform looking out at the mass of humanity in India, a Calvinist sees them as “some” who have been elected, with “most” damned, before any of them ever drew breath. To be true to his theology, he knows that his preaching can do nothing to change their eternal destiny. That is not evangelism; that is not fulfilling the Great Commission; that is not preaching.
@ Nancy2:
I did not know that.
JeffB wrote:
Phil Saviano, abuse survivor and SNAP leader played by actor Neal Jay Huff, was on stage as well!
@ Max:
What I don’t get is the insistence of how important their preaching/message is for people. Nothing is more important than their sermons. It is a big sin to miss their sermons at church. I have heard this for years from those in that movement. That insistence just does not match their soteriology.
“T4G Honors Mahaney”
In the ESV version of the Bible, the young reformers read “Give respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed” (Romans 13:7). It’s amazing who New Calvinists dispense respect and honor to! I don’t think that’s what Paul had in mind when he penned those words. The Phillips version of that same verse puts it this way “Give everyone his legitimate due” … New Calvinists leaders are operating with illegitimate authority.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, their preaching is all about indoctrination in reformed theology, not instruction in righteousness … and certainly no saving merit in it. In a New Calvinist sermon, you will hear a lot about God, very little about Jesus, and hardly a note about the Holy Spirit. Their preaching is not designed to reach the lost, but to instruct the elect … it matches perfectly with their soteriology. Their gospel is not the Gospel that saves, since they have little to do with that … God already took care of our eternal destiny before the foundation of the world, you know. Us poor souls were born either saved or damned, with nothing we can do about it. Thus, a Calvinist preacher must devote his time to teach the elect, not reach the lost.
nancyjane wrote:
Interesting that you should use the word “protest.” The T4G conference theme is “WE are PROTESTant”, with emphasis on “We Protest.” It’s another way to fuel the passion of the young rebels who are caught up in the new reformation. I can see them all over Louisville wearing those conference t-shirts!
I hope there will be some area folks protesting at the conference, but the apathy in non-Calvinist churches runs so deep, I’m not sure they can be moved with anything. You would think that the Louisville media would be covering controversial Mahaney speaking there.
Dang, the chuckling one gets two pics in the article this time round’! He’s movin’ up in he world. Well, y’all know the Lord designs everything for his glory an’ all that good stuff…
elastigirl wrote:
Sure did (Gaga’s performance). She really is the cat’s meow. Haven’t heard a better music performance in many a year.
Max wrote:
Again, why bother? If you are already elect/saved regardless of what you do or believe, then what does it matter what you either do or believe? So what is to teach? Doctrine? Why pray tell? How to live a life pleasing to god? Their god cannot be pleased apparently. To store up riches in heaven? Who is kidding whom, this cannot be done in their theology. I know, to officiate at the sacraments. Well, oops, scratch that. To head up works of mercy? Did I say works? I need to quit talking dirty like that. To minister to the wounded among them? Well, not if you can do a cover up and find somebody to blame such that the wounded do not need ministered to, they only need to repent.
Lord, have mercy.
In case it is any comfort to anybody I think there are signs of leaks in the flood wall for the calvinists.
They have already identified the fact that for all their talk about comp…ism most of the their people are functionally living in egalitarian marriages according to Russ Moore. That must be truly frustrating to them.
And now what with the political primaries we see that evangelicals are not voting as a bloc, and if they are values voters then it is apparent that they do not all have the same values priorities that the neo-cals have preached. They are voting according to however they want to, not obediently doing what they are told. Again, how frustrating.
And most of them do not marry right out of school nor do they have more children than they can take care of. They have not set the world on fire getting their men (mostly) off certain web sites. And church women even have abortions so I read.
Who are they kidding anyhow??
@ Max:
We should put on some 15th century poor peasant Anabaptist garb. Wear signs: was drowned for adult baptism. Or, was tortured for disagreeing with Calvin……
(Yes, I know about Munster and They were not monolithic)
David Platts talk at this year’s T$G:
Talk Title: Martyrdom and Mission: Why Reformers Died In Their Day, How We Must Live In Ours
You can’t make this stuff up.
Max wrote:
They’ve caricatured the Almighty as mean kid with an ant farm, some bright sun, and a magnifying glass.
Hey, a shout-out to Amy Smith of SNAP, who was just written about in the Dallas Observer for her activism with an alleged child abuse cover-up in Presentwood Baptist Church.
http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/an-advocate-for-the-sexually-abused-demands-answers-from-prestonwood-baptist-church-7132274
@ Pam Palmer:
Thanks for alerting us Pam. Hope the media will continue to focus on child sex abuse.
Muff Potter wrote:
“A God who is Omnipotent but NOT Benevolent.”
— JMJ (Christian Monist), describing his experiences with Islam when he was in Egypt
patriciamc wrote:
In the words of the Prophet Zimmerman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4EkQfXtheg
Lydia wrote:
This is SO much like Furry Fanboys, spending all their time on Social Media (“FURRY! FURRY! FURRREEE!”) when they’re not existing Furry Con to Furry Con.
Chemie wrote:
I’d like to hear an opinion on that from one or more of those 22 Copts.
elastigirl wrote:
I don’t follow Lady Gaga.
Which performance was this and why was it so memorable?
Muff Potter wrote:
That’s why they call us ProtestANTS ;^)
Google Lady Gaga and Oscars. She performed at the Oscars.
I am not particularly a fan of hers but that took my breath away.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I didn’t watch it but am familiar with her and saw the headlines about her Oscar show appearance all over social media.
Lady Gaga is a pop singer (probably best known for the songs “Poker Face” and “Bad Romance”).
Gaga sang a song on the awards show called “‘Til It Happens to You,” which is about survivors of sexual abuse.
Source:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3468845/Emotional-Lady-Gaga-gets-standing-ovation-powerful-performance-Til-Happens-Oscars-Kesha-thanks-star-supporting-sexual-assault-victims.html
This is from a Christian satire news site:
Counsel On Biblical Gender Roles To Update Manuals With Correct Spelling Of ‘Complementarian’
http://babylonbee.com/news/counsel-biblical-gender-roles-update-manuals-correct-spelling-complementarian/
I thought some of you may get a grin or laugh out of that.
@ Daisy: Funny!
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
The HEAVY HITTERS! All the BIG NAMES in current Calvinism.
Lydia wrote:
This is another scam. They get a bunch to join them on a trip to the “holy land” and they get a big kick-back. So not only do they travel on the church dime, they line their pockets also. A lot of corruption.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Good news, bad news, from the “register” tab, “registration is now closed”
Good news: no one else can go, bad news: it is sold out.
At about $250 a pop, how many attend these things? I’m curious what the speakers pocket, anyone know for sure?
Deb wrote:
Deb, you can’t be, you’e a female.
Harley wrote:
This article from Warren Throckmorton might interest you. A RICO lawsuit is being filed against former leaders of Mars Hill Church.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/02/29/rico-lawsuit-filed-against-former-leaders-of-mars-hill-church/#st_refDomain=www.facebook.com&st_refQuery=/
elastigirl wrote:
Oh my, I just watched it now. One of the most moving performances I have ever seen. And yes, I was crying.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I dunno, HUG, I wonder if any of these Calvinistas would even admit to those Copts being Christians. Remember J.D. Hall (Reformation Montana) who bullied Braxton Caner, Ergun Caner’s son, on social media and soon afterward the boy took his own life? That J.D. Hall had the audacity to state that he doubted that they were Christians because they didn’t hold to the Five Solas of the Reformation. Because as we know – CALVINISM IS THE GOSPEL.
Darlene wrote:
“THERE IS NO CHRIST, ONLY CALVIN…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljCnqii8Qgw
Daisy wrote:
Bill M wrote:
Come on Bill, it’s not about the money! 🙂
But seriously, it is all about the money. If it wasn’t they could simply put their sermons on Vimeo and you could watch the celebrities from the comfort of your home, or with your small group, etc. The money you save on registration, hotels, meals and travel could then be used to aid the needy as you best see fit.
As to what the speakers are paid, I do not know the amount, but my guess is the “plenary speakers” pull down 5K. Added to that, it is customary to pay for their transportation, meals and lodging.
I base my guess on solid information that when Mahaney pastored CLC guest speakers were routinely paid 1K, some celebrities were given 2K. That was years ago; add inflation and the cash flowing in to a conference and I think 5K is a reasonable guess. Quick math tells you if 10,000 attendees pay $250 to attend the conference that is 2.5 million. Obviously they have expenses, but these conferences are big money makers, which is why there are so many of them.
Lydia wrote:
If Platt would have been born in the Muslim world I imagine he would be the perfect recruiter for suicide bombers. He seems to constantly be on message and that message is Christians must be radical, lose your life radical, give up all and go to a dangerous foreign country radical. But hey, it sells books. Personally, I think Platt needs to chill. I wonder if he has ever watched the sunset while sipping a glass of wine? His message resonates with 20-year-olds, book publishers and conference planners; 58-year-olds? Not so much.
I prefer Matt B. Redmond’s “The God of the Mundane.” I believe Redmond has got it right:
“For as long as I can remember I had been reading the letters to the churches in the New Testament and missing something. I missed it as a young man wanting to enter vocational ministry, and I missed it as a seminary student. I sadly missed it as a pastor. Sometimes we may miss things because they are hidden. But we seem to always miss much because we see it every day.
I missed the obvious: the Apostles are writing to normal people. Most of them are nameless. They are Jew and Gentile, yes. But they are also not apostles. And most are not pastors. They are carpenters, farmers, traders, sailors, fisherman, shepherds, guards. They are mothers and fathers and children. Compared to the life of an apostle, their lives are probably mundane. These are ordinary men and women believing an extraordinary story. They are not the Apostle Paul, or Peter, or any of the other apostles, who are immortalized in the pages of sacred writ. They are ordinary people who huddled in someone’s home, drank their wine, ate their bread, and listened to the Holy Spirit through the words of an Apostle. And then they went home. And they got up the next morning and lived a normal life, probably to the end of their days. And now, poof! They are forgotten.
My guess? Most of them lived out the rest of their lives after coming to faith with the most exciting thing in their lives being when they believed and aligned themselves with Christ and his people. They kept on living where they were and making a living as they did before they believed. They lived normal lives. Only more so. They listened to Paul’s teaching, learned from him, and in faith stayed where they were after he left. All of this should have been obvious to me but it wasn’t. For years I read and thought and then taught as if Paul was the standard for those I was teaching. “Look at Paul and his singular devotion to Christ,” I would implore them. And then it hit me. The nameless, ordinary believer who listened to Paul and lived faithfully as a farmer, mother, etc., right where they were — they are the standard. The forgotten mundane existence of those whose names we will never know is the endgame.
It is true Paul says to his readers, “imitate me…” And he says it more than once. In each instance, Paul wants his readers to see that he is an example of what he is asking of them in that particular context. His life is consistent with what he is teaching. He isn’t out of step. But he never asks them to stop being who they are. He never challenges them to go anywhere. We don’t even get hints that lead us to believe he is making them feel guilty for living in comparative comfort compared to his lack of it. That’s weird. And it’s weird because this is so common in our pulpits and in conferences held for zealous college students.
So many pastors today, famous ones and otherwise, are asking young people and everyone else if they are willing to give it all and go overseas as a missionary. It’s not a bad question to ask. There is no question in my mind that this question needs to be out there. But they — or someone — also needs to ask, “are you willing to be numbered among the nameless believers in history who lived in obscurity? Do you have the courage to be forgotten by everyone but God and the heavenly host? Are you willing to be found only by God as faithful right where you are? Are you willing to have no one write a book about you and what you did in the name of Christ? Are you willing to live and believe — in stark contrast to the world around you — there is a God of the mundane?”
-Matt B. Redmond
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Some college aged kid got burned out and spiritually abused buying into all that “be radical for Jesus” stuff, and he wrote a book called “Runaway Radical” about it. He was interviewed on Christian shows about a year or two ago.
Being Radical For Jesus
http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/02/20/radical-jesus-stories-dont-get-told/
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
So this is what Mahaney defines as suffering. Understood.
Daisy wrote:
LOL. You know, when you add the -ism, it’s a really long word. For me, “comp” isn’t so much a put-down as a term of convenience.
Jenny wrote:
Somehow, their blog notes only apply to others, not themselves.
Daisy wrote:
Thanks Daisy for the link, I’ll bookmark that one.
I was especially glad to see the one about Yosemite Sam entering the GOP race. Being over-run by rabbits gorging on our landscaping my vote will definitely be for the guy that says “I hates rabbits”.
For those survivors who may be concerned about watching Spotlight – – I think you may find it powerful in that you see the reporters really consider what the survivors faced. They do not minimize the abuse whatsoever. In fact, they get very worked up over it and want to fight on behalf of the survivors. This movie validates the experiences of survivors. They want justice.
Daisy wrote:
Great article Daisy. I will have to get the book. I had not seen this.
“Boz: What is the one thing you would tell a young person today who wants to be radical for God?
Jonathan: There are a lot of people out there willing to exploit those who give up their whole lives for a cause. For every radical who gets on a plane, there’s a con artist waiting for him on the other side. And sadly, sometimes that con artist is a church or a mission agency.”
– See more at: http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/02/20/radical-jesus-stories-dont-get-told/#sthash.hPkOBSEc.dpuf
It’s been a while since I commented here (hi!), but given the subject of this post I though I’d mention the Royal Commission into child sexual abuse Australia has been holding for the last couple of years. I’m sure quite a few of you have hear about what’s happening with it right now, as the number 3 Catholic in the world, George Pell, an Australian, is currently being questioned about his knowledge of abuse. He was in Ballarat in rural Victoria in the 1970s and 1980s when it was the worst place for sexual abuse, but claims he knew nothing. Worst of all, his actual quote about rumours of abuse was that he thought it “was a sad story that didn’t interest me much”. There’s a lot of excellent detailed coverage of it here in Australia and online, with The Guardian a great place to look, but I thought I’d just give you one link. The cartoonist below does a fantastic job of cutting through and show up the dark awfulness of it all.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2016/mar/02/george-pell-they-didnt-tell-me-because-they-were-worried-i-might-ask-difficult-questions
Thanks for sharing that link Pam. I have been following the news about Pell; his actions are typical, disgusting, but typical.
Nathaniel Morales, a pedophile sentenced to 40 years for his crimes, claims he has no remembrance of any of his crimes.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
i read the book and totally agree.
But what bothers me about Platt is he did not stay “Radical”. He moved on to a bigger stage with 6 figures while he exhorts people to write a blank check. That to me says it is all a shtick.
Based on his behavior in Dubai, I think he is the type who sends others to be in danger.
Max wrote:
Well said Max!
@ Darlene: 🙂
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Excellent comment, Julie Anne!
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
CJ Mahaney does not remember learning of any instances of child abuse in his family of churches either. Nor does he remember blackmailing Larry Tomczak.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
You know, JA, that’s what Jesus did. Always got worked up over the plight of the abused, got WAY worked up, to the point of calling abusers things–e.g., “sons of hell”–that go well beyond the language typically used on watchblogs, He got worked up to the point of going Indiana Jones with a whip on the abusers who were using the church for their financial advantage.
These so-called Christian, so-called leaders with exceptionally thin skins who block people on twitter and cover for each other and imply they’re jus’ like poor persecuted ol’ Job.
In my opinion they should just be thankful that it’s only watchbloggers and shunned and disenfranchised victims they’re dealing with and not Jesus Himself still walking among us, or they might just feel the lash of a whip across their buttocks and see their tables flipped over and their money clattering across the floor for anyone to snatch up.
@ Law Prof:
You are absolutely correct, but what does that to a modern idea in some circles of ‘gentle Jesus meek and mild’ as the only Jesus in the scriptures?
“The content of each sermon should be informed by Paul’s specific charge to preach the GOSPEL.”
The operative term there; *should*.
Ok, just watched the video. The thing that struck me as weird was the reference to Job, who at most functioned as the family priest as well as patriarch. He wasn’t a pastor (as we know them) to people outside his household, although he had a good reputation in his community.
The apostle Paul on the other hand, was arguably in a pastoral role for the various churches. I forget the exact reference at the moment, but there is a passage where he goes down the whole litany of ways he has suffered, both at the hands of Christianity’s enemies as well as things like being shipwrecked. You’d think that if they were going to have this big theme of suffering pastors, they would be going on about Judaizers, Hymenaeus and Alexander, Diotrephes, superapostles, scoffers in Jude, Corinthians in need of discipline, etc.
NJ wrote:
Thanks NJ for reminding us what “suffering” looked like in the early church. It’s well worth taking a look at the passage you reference about Paul’s sufferings for the cause of Christ:
“Are they ministers of Christ? I have more claim to this title than they. This is a silly game but look at this list: I have worked harder than any of them. I have served more prison sentences! I have been beaten times without number. I have faced death again and again. I have been beaten the regulation thirty-nine stripes by the Jews five times. I have been beaten with rods three times. I have been stoned once. I have been shipwrecked three times. I have been twenty-four hours in the open sea. In my travels I have been in constant danger from rivers and floods, from bandits, from my own countrymen, and from pagans. I have faced danger in city streets, danger in the desert, danger on the high seas, danger among false Christians. I have known exhaustion, pain, long vigils, hunger and thirst, going without meals, cold and lack of clothing. Apart from all external trials I have the daily burden of responsibility for all the churches.” (2 Corinthians 11: 23-29 Phillips)
In regard to C.J. Mahaney, “suffering” for Christ is not having your ministry sins pointed out in watchblogs or the subject of prominent magazine articles. 21st century Western Christianity knows little about such suffering.
NJ wrote:
NJ,
Mahaney will be preaching from Job because he just recently completed a series at his run-away church plant from that book. Although he continually tells everyone how hard pastors work on sermon preparation, (“hours and hours and hours and hours and hours” every week, is what he said) he doesn’t seem too fond of putting in the required hours, choosing instead to recycle old sermons. Perhaps that gives him more time to practice synchronizing his flailing arm movements and with his speech!
My guess is he will be preaching from Job 42, his last sermon in the series, and he will throw in a few quotes from Luther to tie it in with the Reformation theme.
https://thouarttheman.org/2014/01/18/c-j-mahaney-once-again-displays-minimal-effort/
okrapod wrote:
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
“I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
— Johann Banner’s Sgt Schultz
Bridget wrote:
“I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
— op cit above
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
“All Animals are Equal
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!”
— G.Orwell, “Animal Farm”
@ Pam:
WOW!! That cartoon is very powerful! Thanks for the link!! And it is so obvious that protestants are next in line for such scathing rebukes!!
@ Todd Wilhelm:
There were several editorials by Christians that popped up which criticized the whole “be radical for Jesus” philosophy a year or more ago.
Here is one:
Radical for Jesus a New Kind of Legalism?
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2015/June/Radical-for-Jesus-a-New-Kind-of-Legalism
Max, thanks for the reference. I thought this comment of HUG’s was apropos:
Chemie wrote:
Bill M wrote:
Poor suffering “pastors”. His introduction is revealing of their mindset, IT IS all about them.
This is true. I once heard one of the Gospel Glitterati make a comment about pastors suffering for the gospel.
Headless Unicorn Guy:
“I’d like to hear an opinion on that from one or more of those 22 Copts.”
Brilliant comment.
Now, pastors can suffer for the Gospel in all sorts of ways, most well short of martyrdom. I don’t want to downplay genuine problems of pastors here in the West, and I do believe there are degrees of persecution. Christians supporting ordained clergy in suffering is a good thing, as long as the suffering was not deserved.
Max wrote:
The conference promoters screwed up once and booked his seat in coach and not in 1st class. Oh the suffering.
Todd, thanks for the info. In that post you linked to about Mahaney was this:
“The time pressures on the guy must be more intense than us common folk can grasp.”
Maybe he’s got a schedule to rival Kevin DeYoung’s.
Max wrote:
And yet the chuckling one has the nerve enough to call himself an ‘apostle’. These guys and all their ilk have no shame whatsoever.
Muff Potter wrote:
And the young folks who follow them don’t have a lick of sense.
Bill M wrote:
Yes, that would be called suffering in 21st century Western Christianity.
Daisy wrote:
Thanks Daisy. It was a good article. It is heartening to know there are many others out there who see through the schtick of Platt and his ilk.
NJ wrote:
And neither do I! My son-in-law, an SBC bi-vocational pastor, just went through a period of persecution at the hands of an ungodly deacon board … but, God delivered him from it by calling him to another church. However, he didn’t go looking for “suffering” to prove his Christianity; he was dealt a bad hand by an unqualified leadership and dealt with the “suffering” until God made a way of escape for him. New Calvinists seem to go looking for ways to suffer as proof of their elected-ness.
@ Daisy:
I wish I could remember where and I would link to it– but on a more obscure blog of a former young pastor who got out of the business, a couple formerly from Brook Hill commented. This was back when Platt was still there. They had been there from the start and Radical. They had downsized, gotten rid of everything but the bare bones and were constantly focused on not accumulating and giving more away. Finally after years, They were burned out. They got out.
I always think of that comment when I see any news of Platt, his Dubai “undisclosed location in danger for Christ”, his 6 figure salary, stating people should give “blank checks” to the IMB even after a 210 M deficit bombshell they blindsided people with, etc, etc. Now after the attempt to get rid over 50 career missionaries,—the broke IMB led by Platt, is hiring young new ones!
Darlene wrote:
Yeah, Calvin is ” God.”
Daisy wrote:
Yes, I bought that book several months ago. Very insightful. He also has a facebook page you can follow where he writes updates occasionally https://www.facebook.com/runawayradical/?fref=ts
Max wrote:
Isn’t that usually called “masochism”?
Though I notice that the New Calvinist Ayatollahs always seem to limit their personal suffering. (Again, those 22 Copts are unavailable for comment.)
Lydia wrote:
To Preach the Word of CALVIN.
And they’ll work cheaper than the older career missionaries.
Muff Potter wrote:
Not just “apostle”.
“HEAD Apostle” of the “People of Destiny”
(HUMBLY, of course — chuckle chuckle)
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Yes, excellent book. Matt hits the nail on the head. For those of you who haven’t read it, I highly recommend you pick up a copy. It’s a short book and easy to read, but packed with a lot of good insights. I enjoy reading his “Random Thoughts” on his website, Echos and Stars, too.
https://mattbredmond.com/
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
They will be part of the Platt-Calvin Army. Working for their heros
@ Julie Anne Smith:
Apparently GTY blog is doing a series of posts on good/bad shepherds.
http://www.gty.org/Blog/B160302/what-to-look-for-in-a-shepherd
I think I’ll have a Welsh cake and a wee dram to wash down that irony. Yeesh.
Another perspective on *Spotlight,* form a left-leaning journalist who is no friend of the Catholic Church:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/29/oscar-hangover-special-why-spotlight-is-a-terrible-film/
Before y’all bite my head off, please read this thoughtful, balanced article with an open mind. And rest assured that I am NOT excusing Catholic clerical sex abuse — far from it. I am the daughter of a sex-abuse victim (the perp was just a guy in the apartment building, not a priest), and I DO believe the victims before the alleged perps, and I acknowledge that even a single case of child or teen sex abuse is heinous, egregious, horrible beyond belief.
But (a) there *have* been false accusations along with the many legitimate ones; (b) a church with deep pockets is especially vulnerable to false accusations; and (c) during the height of the Catholic Scandal, we lay Catholics went through Hell, getting relentless grief from self-righteous Protestants, Orthodox (e.g., Rod Dreher), and others who painted our Church as the Apotheosis of Evil wherein every priest was a devil incarnate. Their own communions, we were assured, were spotless, perfectly transparent, models of integrity and probity. *Their* communions, we were told, dealt with allegations swiftly and completely, etc. etc. etc. After all, as we all know, in American lore since the days of Maria Monk and the Know-Nothings, Only Catholics Are Bad.)
And, all the while, these critics’ communions were rife with clerical sex abuse, which conveniently flew under the radar. Just as one example: Ask Rod Dreher, the king of double standards, how often he has written about the Greek Orthodox monastery in Astoria, New York, which imported young Ukrainian novices for the express purpose of molesting them…or even about the Blanco, Texas, monastery that was busted for serial sex abuse, but which Dreher still insisted had “blessed” him. [insert rolleyes here].
To say that the Catholic Scandal fanned the flames of good old-fashioned American anti-Catholic bigotry is an understatement. As Episcopalian sociologist Philip Jenkins (who has extensively studied Catholic clerical sex abuse) has repeatedly pointed out, anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable American prejudice. And, in the wake of 2002, it was out in full force.
Again: I am NOT excusing the perps — far from it. I am VERY grateful to the Deebs for acknowledging that the same abuse problems exist in other communions as well. But, as horrific as our Catholic Scandal was, please do not magnify it beyond what it was. As the author of the linked article observes, justice is not served by a perversion of the truth. And apparently *Spotlight* (which I have not yet seen) does indeed distort the truth.
From the Salem witch trials to the daycare abuse allegations of the ’80s, Americans have tended toward bouts of hysterical panic, in which truth, reason, and due process go out the window. Yes, rightly condemn and fight the real sex abuse that has too often occurred in the Catholic Church. But, at the same time, don’t believe everything you read or watch; don’t jettison due process; and don’t refuse to give us Catholics credit for making HUGE strides to clean up our act. Unlike Mahaney and company, we have a zero-tolerance policy, a “Protecting God’s Children” program for all church workers (I’ve been through it), and a drastically reduced incidence of clergy sex abuse. (Most cases occurred between the ’60s and the ’80s.) Are we all the way there yet? No, we are not. But arguably we’re trying a heck of a lot harder than most other communions.
By the way, I’m from Boston, and I can testify from MUCH personal experience that most Catholic priests in Greater Boston are not sex abusers. The myth that pedophile priests lurk under every rock is just that — a myth.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Thanks for your comment. Please help me understand why you think the truth was distorted in the movie Spotlight. Here is some information for your consideration:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reveals-how-many-priests-defrocked-for-sex-abuse-since-2004/
Hope you will take the time to watch Spotlight. In my opinion, it was well done.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher: (ed.)
Meanwhile, the attorney general in my state just announced the conclusion of a Grand (ed.) Jury investigation of sexual abuse in a nearby diocese. 40 years' worth, with approximately 30-50 individual involved. One was defrocked a long time ago, while others were just recently ut on leave.
I am no anti-Catholic sort, not by any means, nor do I think every priest is some sort of "devil incarnate," but that there has been unprecedented abuse on a worldwide scale is, well… pretty much undeniable. That we *don't* know about more than a tiny fraction (the very highest tip of the iceberg) regarding Protestant churches and clergy … that's a whole other problem, and Protestantism is by no means some kind of unified front – pretty much the opposite.
What disturbs me is the way in which many higher-ups have clearly colluded to suppress evidence that should, by rights, lead to both defrocking and criminal charges. The other thing is: why are there so many documented cases of abuse? Is there something that is endemic to the whole process of education for the priesthood that actually fosters and protects pedophiles? (And I do mean pedophiles, not gay men – that's a whole different thing.)
@ numo:
Oops – that should be @Catholic Gate-Crasher.
@ numo:
Grand jury.
I gotta hand it to this AG for her dedication to getting the law on statutes of limitations canned.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
I am confused how it has been magnified beyond what it really was on this blog? What priests were wrongly accused? I think that needs to be made public. But I would be careful when accusing someone of falsely accusing a priest just to get money. People lived with this shame and horror for many years when the priests were protected.
And I believe no matter what denomination or group, all abuse must be outed. If you have information on other groups some of us are not familiar with, then share it, please.
Evangelicals are just as bad when it comes to covering up abuse. And many of us are shouting it from the rooftops. No church or denomination is worth protecting or defending from such heinous treatment of the least of these.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
BTW: When priests were moved around instead of charged with crimes and a trial, the victims did not get “due process” of justice.
@ numo: Corrected it. 🙂
“But (a) there *have* been false accusations along with the many legitimate ones; (b) a church with deep pockets is especially vulnerable to false accusations; and (c) during the height of the Catholic Scandal, we lay Catholics went through Hell, getting relentless grief from self-righteous Protestants”
Sure, there will always be false accusations – but the bulk of the accusations were historical in the sense that they had been made at the time, in an era that was much less understanding to the victims, who often numbered in the 10s and the 100s – so much more likely to correlate.
And absolutely these things should be confronted wherever they occur – and this blog has done much work in terms of exposing these crimes when they occur in evangelical circles.
Let me say on further thing; in the old testament there is an injunction against ‘putting your son or daughter to the flame’. When the Catholic Church – often at the highest levels – decided to sacrifice the lives and futures of children in order to prop up their institution, they were worshiping Molech and Chemosh in the sense that really matters.
So does any other church, evangelical, orthodox or otherwise who engages in similar behavior.
dee wrote:
Fwiw, when I was at SBTS, this was openly talked about. The missions money had been “squandered” on churches that weren’t “theologically robust” (read, Neo-Cal). It wasn’t even controversial – it was just assumed that the Neo-Cals would take over and do their thing.
Chris S wrote:
Powerful words!
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
You make an excellent point that Catholics have made large strides in handling this problem, and no one here wants to give the impression that we think all Catholic priests are molesters. We’re just pointing out that there apparently was a cultural problem in the organization of the Catholic church because there were a large number of priests who were molesters and who were protected by the leadership. Yes, that has been uncovered and dealt with, at least partially. It’s going to take a while to uncover all the wrong-doers and totally heal the culture. With Catholicism, it’s a bit easier to point out the problems since it’s one organization. With Protestants, it’s harder since there are so many different groups and many with little formal organizational leadership outside of the local church. I think what I’m trying to say is that we don’t think all Catholic priests are molesters, and we certainly recognize and are trying to uncover the problem within the Protestant communities.
@ patriciamc:
I totally agree with your comment. Thanks for sharing!
@ Deb:
Thanks muchly!
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Personally, I am not so impressed with the current Pope. His actions do not seem to line up with his words: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/world/americas/calling-protesters-in-chile-dumb-pope-francis-sets-off-uproar.html?_r=1
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Your comments about Rod Dreher are not true. He has in fact talked about clergy sex abuse in the Orthodox communions in multiple posts on his blog. Here is just one: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/forgiving-sexual-offenders-in-the-clergy/
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
When were you at SBTS, Doc? Was this dorm room chatter or openly discussed by SBTS professors in class?
@ Max: What are recommendations for Baptist churches who don’t want to be taken over by a Neo Calvinist pastor? I believe the only SBC seminary not taken over by the YRR crowd is SWBTS, and maybe NOTS? Liberty might be another option? Then there is Samford whose Calvinist president is pretty irenic towards non Calvinists. What about Gordon Conwell? Probably should hold it against then that Dever attended there? Baylor is funded by moderates but is classified as evangelical. This is all going to take plenty of thinking for a church. Mistakes can be made outside the SBC realm as inside the SBC. Don’t think Norman Geisler’s seminary would be a bad choice? Have tradionalist Baptists made any recommendations?
@ Mark: Sorry, there is going to come a time when separation is inevitable: traditionalist SBC from the Neo Calvinist usurpers. I am a pessimist. I feel this is a disaster.
Mark wrote:
Mark, a couple of years ago, SBC executives formed a “Calvinism Advisory Committee” to look into implications of New Calvinism. The committee, comprised of both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, issued a report which essentially called all Southern Baptists to agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room for theological diversity under one big tent. This effectively provided the reformed movement more time to Calvinize the denomination; since that time, they have positioned Calvinist leaders in most SBC entities and seminaries. You can read that report at: http://www.sbclife.net/Articles/2013/06/sla5
Mark wrote:
Traditional Southern Baptists (the majority millions are non-Calvinist in belief and practice) are loosely represented by a group called Connect 316. It maintains a blog called SBC Today. Just today, it put up a post entitled “Unity Through Transparency” where it presents some recommendations for going forward. You can read that piece and comments at: http://sbctoday.com/unity-through-transparency-agenda/
@ Mark:
Yes, this very well may happen.
Mark wrote:
Mark, the gulf is wide between Calvinist and non-Calvinist soteriology. I just don’t see how two distinctly different plans of God’s salvation can co-exist with each other, as it pertains to evangelism and mission.
Is separation inevitable? Would it be the right thing to do? When I ponder this as a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I think of the following Charles Finney quote (Finney was a great evangelist in the early part of the 19th century):
“It is evident that many more Churches need to be divided. How many there are that hold together, and yet do no good, for the simple reason that they are not sufficiently agreed. They do not think alike, nor feel alike … and while this is so, they never can work together. Unless they can be brought to such a change of views and feelings as will unite them, they are only a hindrance to each other and to the work of God. In many cases they see and feel that this is so, and yet they keep together, conscientiously, for fear that a division should dishonor religion, when in fact the division that now exists may be making religion a by-word and a reproach. Far better would it be if they would agree to divide amicably, like Abraham and Lot. ‘If thou will take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, I will go to the left.’ Let them separate, and each party work in its own way; and they may both enjoy the blessing.” (Charles G. Finney, Revivals of Religion, Lecture XVI: The Necessity and Effect of Union)
Max wrote:
I wouldn’t agree in this case, however, that the New Calvinists would be blessed following a potential SBC split. God never blesses rebellion. The reformed movement within SBC has involved stealth and deception to take what non-Calvinists organized and financed over several generations.
@ Max: I hate separation. It makes me feel like fundamentalist brethren. In fact it kind of breaks my heart. Separation would be and is far from amicable like the Finney quote. And it sure isn’t amicable in SBC right now. It seems that one faction, the Neo Calvinists talk down to the Traditionalists and everyone else.This was my impression when I read the SBC today link. I would submit a separation is already happening with churches becoming independent and not joining any Baptist communion. These churches don’t fit in with the moderates nor with the IFB. They aren’t happy with the direction of the SBC. The problem is — even independent churches need to associate and work with like minded churches. No church is its own oyster. Don’t know if this awful but possibly inevitable topic has been discussed?
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
All those Protestant protectors of pedos like The Humble One, Flutterhands, Raney, and the Jerk in the Kirk polishing their halos with “I THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOORD, THAT *I* AM NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMISH PAPISTS…”
@ Max:
They won’t be blessed. They will form more cult like churches that are critiqued in Wartburg Watch. And the heresy of ESS will be taught in these churches. There will be little really taught about grace and love of God, an awful lot taught about election, and very little about salvation through Christ, and a lot about authority of pastor and elders, instead of priesthood of believers. Spiritual and orther abuse will be rampant. You are right, they won’t win, but maybe there is no hope for these arrogant ________. They made the free will what they have decided to do. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Yo can’t argue with them. They are right. Everyone else is wrong because they have the perfect system (my foot). They worship John Calvin.
Mark wrote:
The only thing that SBC non-Calvinist churches have working for them right now is SBC’s position on local church autonomy. They can fairly well do what they want to in regard to belief and practice, as long as they conform to the Baptist Faith & Message. Unfortunately, the BFM was revised in 2000 to provide wiggle room for theological diversity within the denomination … Al Mohler was on the revision committee and orchestrated certain changes to the statement of faith trending toward Calvinism. Sadly, long-held Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of the believer were diminished in the revision.
Max wrote:
This cannot be emphasized strongly enough.
@ Max:
Finney was a huge Reformed boogeyman for years. He was trotted out regularly as the free will anti Christ until enough people started comparing his abolitionist stance with the pro slavery Calvinists of the era.
Not good for business.
Deb wrote:
Yes, it has been about control over what others paid for and changing it. Barbarians at the gate in disguise. Many take overs of debt free older churches. I know one church they took over but would not allow home bound tithing seniors to vote unless they could get there to vote. No absentee votes which had been the practice out of consideration for the sick.
Kevin Ezell orchestrated that one. These are cruel men with no conscious.
Lydia wrote:
So much for respecting your elders according to the Bible, versus Calvin! Sorry.
What does,lady Gaga have to do with sexual abuse and church discipline, just wondering not being rude : )Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Mark wrote:
Didn’t the Communists make the same claim?
(And North Korea’s still claiming to this day…)
@ marquis:
Hi, Marquis. well, in my mind, everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2j42NoeeKk
(this one didn’t have Joe Biden’s introduction, which I thought was touching)
The story in Spotlight needed to be told. The Oscars would have more credibility if one of the self congratulating speeches chastised all those in the audience that had circled the wagons around Roman Polanski.
Lydia wrote:
Indeed: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2010/09/ezells-failed-leadership-on-sexual.html
Paige Patterson made an advisor to Ted Cruz: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2016/03/why-ted-cruz-should-see-spotlight.html
Nicholas wrote:
Birds of a feather flock together.
I am watching spotlight for the first time. This is so hard, all these boys they were babies. A very profound quote from the movie ” if it takes a village to raise a child it takes a village to abuse one”! @ Loren Haas: