What I find so sad is that this has happened in so many churches and other institutions. I could name at least three churches in the area where I live where this occurred, with the same dynamics. Years later, the only people left who remember are those who were victimized. The only “good” thing I can see coming out of the SGM debacle is the possibility that more people will feel empowered to take on churches when they do not follow through with reporting to authorities. Churches also need to get wiser about what they allow staff members and volunteers to do. “I don’t care how much you love my kid, there are no sleepovers in staff member homes.” That just seems like common sense.
I am so glad the author mentioned Dever, Mohler and Piper. Maybe more people will see how spiritually bankrupt they are.
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Cousin: The article was 6 pgs. which is long, but not long enough to tell the whole horrid saga. I know many details of trauma and heartache had to be left out — someone needs to write a book to tell it all! In addition, journalistic magazines have their own editorial requirements on providing fairness to both sides and covering their backsides legally, etc. There were major issues of unethical behavior by leaders that was not covered in this article (like the blackmail, domestic abuse covered up, pastors fired for daring to speak out) but which have been discussed on various blogs. One 6 pg. article can’t cover all this mess.
I am wondering what response the various defenders of Mahaney and the SGM mess have made in reply to the article that the Washingtonian printed. Are they just ignoring it, defending their position or what?
The Washingtonian is no penny-ante rag I’m told. And that’s a good thing cuz’ it lays to rest any retort that the victims are just disgruntled cry-babies.
Oh, Pam, my heart is with you, your family , and the other families involved. I actually think the author’s writing style will help to open the eyes of those who have blindly and foolishly “believed the best” of SGM leadership. Once they begin to give themselves permission to think, and evaluate, I think their hearts and minds may be more receptive to the lament of the children and their families as they tell their stories, whether in court or a more public venue.
That just about sums it up. Mohler, Piper and Dever are still drinking at the trough of CJ Mahaney. I read a comment on SGM Survivors in which Paul Kellen said the Mahaney paid for a sabbatical for Wayne Grudge. If this is true, I wonder how many other of the gospel™ dogs benefitted. We know Mohler’s seminary got a ton of moola from Mahaney and Mahaney has benefitted greatly from that friendship.
nancyjane wrote:
We know Mohler’s seminary got a ton of moola from Mahaney and Mahaney has benefitted greatly from that friendship.
1 Timothy 6:10 comes to mind….
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Cousin: Honestly, thank you for your care and support, however, we are just some of the public “faces” of the lawsuit, there are so many other survivors that couldn’t, for a whole host of reasons, stick their mug out there! I am so proud of my daughter and her husband, who forfeited their privacy for the sake of other little children. If leaders deny the cover-up happened and call us liars (directly or indirectly), why should anyone think that sexual abuse cover-up isn’t STILL happening in SGM or their former churches, like Covenant Life Church (CLC) or Sovereign Grace Church (SGC)?! Brent Detwiler posted on his blog that while our lawsuit was still active, there was a cover-up and pay-off by an SGM church of a sexual abuse case! RE: http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/hush-fund-set-up-by-top-sgm-leaders-to-meet-the-demands-of-a.html
Yes they are ignoring it. The Gospel™ Greed is just too great!
None of the T4G attendees would dare ask what happens to all the $$$$ generated at the upcoming event.
Yesterday in our bible study, my husband and I read a transition verse in Acts 6, that we have read before but passed over quickly, however, this time it gave us hope: “And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.” (v. 7) The “priests” of today, all the big dogs and other leaders — T4G16 – fellow – plenary – speakers with CJ ( Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, John Piper, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, David Platt, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung ) CAN repent and change. Many of the Jewish priests of that day, who presided over the sentencing of Jesus to death and the apostles’ beatings and imprisonment for preaching the gospel, repented and came to the faith! If God can do that, He can open the eyes of these men to do the right thing in relation to child sexual abuse and cover-up in churches. Pastors, don’t share the stage with a leader who is credibly accused of leading an organization, which has covered up child sexual abuse for over 30 years! Pastors, don’t attend T4G supporting an organization with your $$ when they are supporting an organization like Sovereign Grace. As Ronald Meldon Karren, a father of a sexual abuse victim from the Mormon church so clearly stated: “Pedophilia is a societal problem, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem – and donating to entities that perpetrate, hide or cover for perpetrators, only means that you are a financier of child molestation.” **Of note, R.C. Sproul, has recently backed out of speaking at T4G “in consultation with his medical advisors”.
I thought the article did an excellent job of explaining the framework in which cover ups like this can happen. If people’s lives hadn’t been so cloistered within a community (sans plumber) they might not have turned to church leaders first when abuses happened. There’s a dynamic at play here.
Also, out of all the things the author could have included, she pointed out that Mahaney “flapped his arms.” Too funny.
Pam and Renee look fearless in that photo. Go, Pam!
dee wrote:
nancyjane wrote:
We know Mohler’s seminary got a ton of moola from Mahaney and Mahaney has benefitted greatly from that friendship.
1 Timothy 6:10 comes to mind….
dee wrote:
nancyjane wrote:
We know Mohler’s seminary got a ton of moola from Mahaney and Mahaney has benefitted greatly from that friendship.
1 Timothy 6:10 comes to mind….
This passage also comes to mind
“Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them”
(II Peter 2:2)
Sadly so many perhaps genuine since believers have followed Mahaney and those associated with him. Sadly this has brought reproach on the body of Christ.
The “priests” of today, all the big dogs and other leaders — T4G16 – fellow – plenary – speakers with CJ ( Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, John Piper, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, David Platt, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung ) CAN repent and change.
As Christians (……true Christians), we are our own priests. Jesus made those fallible, human go-betweens unnecessary for us. I don’t know what these guys are. I know what they think they are, and they are wrong!
You and your daughter are awesome! I’m glad that God has given you, and others, the courage to come forward with the truth! Don’t just stay strong – grow stronger!
I do wish the title said “abuse scandal” instead of “sex scandal.” To me, a sex scandal has more to do with adults, something like Anthony Weiner texting pictures. What happened at SGM was abuse. (You guys might have said this when the article was first posted but I felt it was worth mentioning.)
Otherwise, great article.
Today I saw a Facebook post by a member of a former SGM church who said there was too much “gossip and slander” surrounding this article. He refused to give a link or even the name of the publication.
I suspect many Sovereign Grace members are saying the same thing…
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Agree 100%. The article is almost apologetically neutral, and yet devastating to SGM. Very powerful.
"And I wish to thank Sovereign Grace Ministries, a group of churches that has encouraged me and supported me with funds for additional research in this larger research project."
– Wayne Grudem
I'm getting a clearer understanding of why there is so much loyalty to C.J. Mahaney from the Neo-Cal leaders…
Today I saw a Facebook post by a member of a former SGM church who said there was too much “gossip and slander” surrounding this article. He refused to give a link or even the name of the publication.
I suspect many Sovereign Grace members are saying the same thing…
I wish I could say this really doesn’t surprise me. Sadly their broad definition of what is gossip or slander has allowed for a lot of at best questionable actions to occur. Members take this definition blindly and don’t even now see what it has allowed.
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Cousin: The article was 6 pgs. which is long, but not long enough to tell the whole horrid saga. I know many details of trauma and heartache had to be left out — someone needs to write a book to tell it all! In addition, journalistic magazines have their own editorial requirements on providing fairness to both sides and covering their backsides legally, etc. There were major issues of unethical behavior by leaders that was not covered in this article (like the blackmail, domestic abuse covered up, pastors fired for daring to speak out) but which have been discussed on various blogs. One 6 pg. article can’t cover all this mess.
If they wanted to cover it all, it would be a continuing series from now till doomsday.
J.M.
Thanks for sharing the link, Dee (and Deb)! I have written a piece on it from my perspective and back-linked to your more thorough treatment of the story that you did earlier. It continues to disturb me to see a pattern of evangelical pastors taking the position that they discouraged divorce for wives who discover their husbands are child molesters/pedophiles. SO DISTURBING!
@ Muff Potter:
The Washingtonian is no penny-ante rag I’m told. And that’s a good thing cuz’ it lays to rest any retort that the victims are just disgruntled cry-babies.
If this is true, I wonder how many other of the gospel™ dogs benefitted. We know Mohler’s seminary got a ton of moola from Mahaney and Mahaney has benefitted greatly from that friendship.
Bought And Paid For (HUMBLY, of course — chuckle chuckle).
I am so glad the author mentioned Dever, Mohler and Piper. Maybe more people will see how spiritually bankrupt they are.
Yep.
But financially they are all doing quite well. As long as Mahaney keeps putting cash in their pockets they will remain his buddy. They only cut ties with Driscoll because he was no longer a cash cow. It’s all about the bottom line.
All I can say is that it is my observation….sadly..that the secular world/press/counselors understand abuse waaaaaaaay better than the saints.
How is that possible? How are they able in this day and age to keep the coffers ka-chinging? I have my own opinion. Any others on how they can keep enough people cowed and docile?
@ abigail:
Totally. A friend works at a private school; there was a molestation incident. The child was believed, the police called, the school staff and parents ALL informed within 24 hrs. And the creep is NOT allowed back on campus. Period. How different it all is in the weird world of semantics and wrong-headed theology (aka the business of the church!) than a “secular” school? When will kids be truly protected? When we demand policies in our congregations that put children’s protection first. Period. Demand it in writing. If they won’t, vote with your feet. $$ Talks. It’s the sad reality of this world.
TIME has just published an article on sexual abuse at SGM.
From what I understand Mahaney still has the T$G conference business and perhaps others. And make no mistake, it is big business with vendors such as publishers, etc who pay to be there. My guess is the girlz are having to work. :o)
On a similar topic, an update on Fellowship Bible Church:
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Excellent interview. The SGM pastors/elders never pass up a chance to be cheesy and inappropriate. In one breath, they tell her they just want to move on and not talk about it,,(,who cares about victims). Next breath they send her a card telling her they are praying for HER.
Guys I did a quick post about this…juts enough to blast over the Twitter universe!
Yeah!! I hope a bald man in Louisville is sweeting profusely Todd!
You can bet he is.
R.C. Sproul has dropped out of the T4G conference citing health concerns. I believe if Mahaney does not “voluntarily withdraw” other celebrities will be dropping out. Mahaney may finally be approaching the toxicity levels of Mark Driscoll. Translation: the price of continued support of the humble little bald man exceeds the cash he is capable of producing for “good old boy” club of Christian celebrities.
P.S. I hope Josh “I Kissed CLC Goodbye” Harris is enjoying Spring Break in Vancouver, BC. Methinks he may soon be compelled to return to the scene of his crimes.
DONE! I just blasted it to T4G, David Platt, Thabiti Anyawbie, Justin Taylor, Joe Carter, etc… 🙂
How do I feel after seeing more publicity n this topic in such a national publication? This song expresses it perfectly!
. If leaders deny the cover-up happened and call us liars (directly or indirectly), why should anyone think that sexual abuse cover-up isn’t STILL happening in SGM or their former churches, like Covenant Life Church (CLC) or Sovereign Grace Church (SGC)?!
I have often wondered this same thing!!
Blessings to you & your family for speaking out!!
As Ronald Meldon Karren, a father of a sexual abuse victim from the Mormon church so clearly stated: “Pedophilia is a societal problem, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem – and donating to entities that perpetrate, hide or cover for perpetrators, only means that you are a financier of child molestation.”
That is a very wise statement. Thank you for sharing it with us here.
God’s promise to His people : “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.” Jer 32:40
I believe God will use this publicity to put the fear of God in many hearts. Though it hurts, in the long run the fear of God is a great blessing!
A young person inside the fold said the article is bull sh**. I was shaking after I saw that, and now I’m again. The amount of damage is devastating.
I wonder if it would do any good if we mailed copies of the Time articles to leaders so that they would be reminded that people are not going to stand for child sexual abuse in the church
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Excellent interview. The SGM pastors/elders never pass up a chance to be cheesy and inappropriate. In one breath, they tell her they just want to move on and not talk about it,,(,who cares about victims). Next breath they send her a card telling her they are praying for HER.
Don’t you know by now “I’ll Pray For You(TM)” is Christianese for “doing nothing and feeling good about it”?
“You have a saying: ‘I’ll Pray for You.’
We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”
— Filk of one of the best non-Londo lines from Babylon-5
I blasted it on Twitter last night! Justin Taylor, David Platt, Matt Chandler, etc.. all got it. Mark Dever in all his manliness blocked me a while back. What a coward….
@ Eagle:
Good for you,I am thinking about mailing a copy to all my ex sgm leaders who spoke doo doo into my life.Thirty years later I am just at a point where I feel that I am getting the smell out from my shoes.ha ha May justice be served.
I do not know how to thank you for this information. For years,I have been told by ex members of SGM that CJ funneled money to Grudem for hims to take a sabbatical and write this book. You have not given me the information that I need to write a post on this. I will give you full credit for this great piece of work. Thank you!!!!!!
Dee that is a confirmation I reckon in Wayne Grudem’s own words. I guess I can Tweet that he did accept money from C.J. Mahaney. So that is two people….Molher, and Grudem.
Who is next? Who else accepted money? Did Mark Dever, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, or D.A. Carson accept money from C.J. Mahaney? We need to find those links Dee and prove them. Remember what Deep Throat told Bob Woodward in the movie “All the President’s Men”…’Follow the money…” The key to unraveling the SGM scandal is find out who accepted money, who was bribes, and who was purchased. I think that will tell a lot about why things are the way they are.
on’t you know by now “I’ll Pray For You(TM)” is Christianese for “doing nothing and feeling good about it”?
I actually view it as a condescending insult coming from these guys. As if SHE needed praying for….why? They cannot see their own predicament in wanting to pretend it never took place so they can continue with empire building?
This sort of upside down Christianese cheesiness always reminds me of the story in John 9 of the man born blind interacting with the Pharisees and the man telling them that God does not hear the prayers of sinners. The SGM pastors are like the Pharisees yelling at the man born blind that Jesus healed: “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” :o)
That investigative reporter is a conduit for the healing of the victims of SGM evils. The SGM pastors are a conduit for enabling and protecting evil. What an upside down world in Christendom.
It’s hard to maintain your integrity when you accept tithe money collected by another from average working people in the pews not to go out into the rough mission field where you might be beaten and imprisoned and beheaded, like Paul of Tarsus did, but to cozy up and take time off from work and write a book which has the potential to make you a nice chunk of change. I think most people would feel, if they accepted that money from Mahaney, that it’d burn in their hands.
Who is next? Who else accepted money? Did Mark Dever, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, or D.A. Carson accept money from C.J. Mahaney? We need to find those links Dee and prove them. Remember what Deep Throat told Bob Woodward in the movie “All the President’s Men”…’Follow the money…” The key to unraveling the SGM scandal is find out who accepted money, who was bribes, and who was purchased. I think that will tell a lot about why things are the way they are.
It would probably be something akin to David Horowitz’ “Discover the Networks”. It took years to map that. You would have to “prove” publishing connections, speaker gig connections, etc, etc. Things that look normal to the average observer.
One thing I did find curious was that SGL came here and took up residence in some fancy offices in an office park. You can google an image at
303 North Hustbourne Lane, Louisville 40222.
However, they do church at the Marriott for a hundred or so. Why the offices right away? They would not need such an office for church. Could it be they are funneling SG business as in marketing the T$G conferences, SG Music stuff and such through the special tax status of a church organization? John Haggee did this years back when the amount of money of his non profit was bringing in became a source of internet fodder because people could now look it up. Now, it is hidden….
I actually view it as a condescending insult coming from these guys. As if SHE needed praying for….why? They cannot see their own predicament in wanting to pretend it never took place so they can continue with empire building?
I think they view her as the enemy of God for writing an article that exposes their church. In saying they are praying for her, they try to come across as the victims and the good guys because they are “praying for their enemy.” Sick.
Or, as one of the commenters in the above article said: “Also, I’ll pray for you can be translated as ‘you are so far gone that only God Almighty can help you.”
… but to cozy up and take time off from work and write a book which has the potential to make you a nice chunk of change.
Minus the $210 grand to ResultSource to juice it onto the best-seller lists.
Thank you all so much for the link to the article; I think it was good and informative, and I do hope that it reaches the eyes and ears of the Reformed “big dogs” who continue to support Mahaney and cause them to think more seriously about who they are supporting (CJ) and the seriousness of abuse in the church.
Additionally, I think they (the big dogs) should give more thought to actually supporting those who are reporting abuse cases within the church instead of instinctively characterizing those reporting as gossips and slanderers who are just “bitter.”
I would love to see someone write about how mental issues/psychiatric medications were handled at SGM. I told my story on this website a long time ago as well as at SGM Refuge and Survivors, but after almost five years at a SGM church, I ended up with a weeks vacation at a psych ward and extensive counseling after that.
While I don’t attribute ALL of my mental issues to SGM (it was a culmination of a lifetime of issues and experiences), I do many of them. My problems were exacerbated because of the suffocating, legalistic environment there and the way that my situation was handled. SGM did not value any counseling outside of the church; they somehow felt that the pastoral staff could handle any and every case that walked through the door.
Also, they were not supportive of psychiatric medications – it was somehow thought of as “happy pills”, as a way of avoiding responsibility for sin.
I know I could have pursued counseling on my own, apart from the church, and I did try, but I would feel “guilty” and quit. For whatever reason, I put an infinite amount of trust in these men; I basically considered what they said as having come from the mouth of God!
Thinking back on the situation, it was just crazy, but I really had just lost any ability to think for myself, and I did not listen to my instincts, which I learned in counseling were actually quite good.
My situation became extremely critical in the sense that I was dealing with EXTREME obsessive compulsive thoughts that I could not stop, and I was very suicidal. I was at home with three small kids, reaching out to the church for help, and they WOULD not recommend outside help. It was only when I reached out to our parents (mine and my husband’s) and medical help outside of the church was I able to get the help that I desperately needed.
SGM might have changed their minds on that issue; I don’t know because I haven’t really been keeping up with them for a long time. This happened ten years ago. But, I think that churches not only need to learn how to effectively deal with issues of abuse and really get it together, but they need to learn about mental health issues as well (instead of merely treating that as a “sin” or “heart” issue). Both of these issues are very much a part of the real world, and the church can not be effective until it can come to grip with these issues and stop living in a bubble.
Also, they were not supportive of psychiatric medications – it was somehow thought of as “happy pills”, as a way of avoiding responsibility for sin.
To me, that is the same thing as refusing to give a child antibiotics for a strep infection, or telling someone not to see medical care for cancer or a ruptured appendix because it is a sin issue.
PS
When I said the “church” needs to learn how to handle issues of abuse and mental illness, I was referring to the church as a whole, not just SGM. There might be some churches who deal with these issues really well, but I have a feeling that many are woefully lacking in their ability to deal with these cases effectively.
I think that churches not only need to learn how to effectively deal with issues of abuse and really get it together, but they need to learn about mental health issues as well (instead of merely treating that as a “sin” or “heart” issue). Both of these issues are very much a part of the real world, and the church can not be effective until it can come to grip with these issues and stop living in a bubble.
Very well said!
I hope you are much better now and I am sorry that the SGM church prolonged your pain and suffering. It is very sad how much of the Church views mental health issues.
Thanks; I am in a much better place. Since my experience with SGM, we’ve been a part of two different churches, and they both handle those issues in a much healthier way. I mean, nowhere is perfect of course, but the difference between those two churches (one is Lutheran and our current one is Presbyterian PCA) and SGM is like night and day!
I’ve never seen anything like SGM before or since – they way they hammered in the authority of spiritual leaders, the leadership of the husband, the way they continually focused on “indwelling sin”, etc. It was sooooo unbalanced and unhealthy.
Today I saw a Facebook post by a member of a former SGM church who said there was too much “gossip and slander” surrounding this article. He refused to give a link or even the name of the publication.
I suspect many Sovereign Grace members are saying the same thing…
A story I was reading this morning about problems in Washington state’s largest psychiatric hospital comes to mind- the charge is being made that employees who speak out about abuses in the system are being retaliated against- my point is, group dynamics are so predictable! The same methods are used to silence opposition whether it be a Christian organization or anything else. http://komonews.com/news/local/western-state-hospital-staff-say-they-face-retaliation
This quote:
“People talk, and they have a right to discuss matters as they see fit as long as they are not being intentionally disruptive or libelous,” she said. “Leadership does not need to respond to breakroom chatter as long as people feel able to bring their genuine concerns to their leaders without fear of retribution.”
This statement could fit so many church situations without any change.
Over years of seeing issues in churches silenced in this way, I have come to have a huge red flag pop up as soon as I hear words like “gossip” and “slander.” People talking about what has and is happening is NORMAL. As the person in the quote above said, people have a right to talk and discuss matters honestly. If people feel that it is wrong to openly discuss a matter, then it is a sign something is seriously wrong. If they willingly remain silent and try to silence others, they are helping perpetuate the problem.
Christians should not be people who fear the truth.
My situation became extremely critical in the sense that I was dealing with EXTREME obsessive compulsive thoughts that I could not stop, and I was very suicidal.
Do you think maybe this was your mind’s way of alerting you that you were in a bad situation? Just wondering; it seems like sometimes our will can force us to keep living in an unhealthy situation too long because we’re convinced it’s the way it’s ‘supposed to be’ until finally our body or mind says ‘no more.’ In so many churches we learn to ignore cognitive dissonance but there is a pressure exerted on us when we do this.
The SGM pastors are like the Pharisees yelling at the man born blind that Jesus healed: “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” :o)
Yes! this!
@ siteseer:
Hi. I’m not really sure how to answer your questions. Did they discourage that? No, I don’t think they did. Maybe they weren’t encouraging us to trust them as much as I did or to see their words as the same as God’s. I think they would certainly say that we shouldn’t trust man as much as God, but they certainly seemed to encourage unwavering trust in their leadership.
In my remembrance, we constantly heard about “coming alongside your leaders” and “joyfully serving your leaders”. We heard about it ad nauseam! And questioning leadership was pretty much “taboo”. It was as if we little people, the congregation, couldn’t have insight into any flaws in leadership. If questioned, leadership would always turn the tables on the questioner and she would be grilled about her “heart” issues. So, it was never THEIR problem, it was always YOUR problem, your sin or heart issues. I don’t know if this makes sense.
In both of my churches since, I fully believe that if I came to the pastor or an elder and brought something to his attention, I believe that he would have no problem with it at all and in fact, would probable welcome someone bringing it to his attention.
SGM always talked about their “apostolic” team; I think some of the pastors really did consider themselves “apostles”, maybe not quite on the level of Paul, but maybe a notch below!!
Yes, my mind probably was telling me to get the heck out of there. But, when your hammered week after week about following your husband’s lead and your husband is “led” to stay there, you start thinking that your the problem. I did talk to my husband and tell him I wanted out, and he was just not at the same place I was at the time. Looking back now, I would have put my foot down and emphatically stated, “I’m NOT going back there!!” I just didn’t have the courage then, and I thought that God would be mad at me if I did!! So, I kept going to a church where I felt sick attending week after week until I couldn’t physically go anymore!
My mind was just sick and tired. I had dealt with OCD, much milder versions, off and on since childhood. But, this reached an unbearable level; my mind started going from the time I woke up until the time I went to bed, and I had no rest. When I lost the ability to sleep, that is when I became suicidal. I could not escape from my thoughts, and I saw no other option than killing myself in order to find relief. When I got the medications that I needed, they kicked in and I began to function as a human being again. I had the ability to calm my thoughts, to say to myself, “I’m not going to think about this anymore.” Prior to that, I had lost the ability to do that.
I did talk to the pastor about 6 or 8 months after I left, and I confronted him about this issue. I said that they taught that EVERY AREA of our lives are affected by sin, including our physical bodies. The church had no problem with people seeking medical care for their physical bodies – debilitating headaches, etc. Why do they treat our minds differently?
SGM always talked about their “apostolic” team; I think some of the pastors really did consider themselves “apostles”, maybe not quite on the level of Paul, but maybe a notch below!!
Back when they were called “People of Destiny, International”, didn’t their founder/leader HUMBLY(TM) title himself “Head Apostle”?
BoughtTheField wrote:
Today I saw a Facebook post by a member of a former SGM church who said there was too much “gossip and slander” surrounding this article. He refused to give a link or even the name of the publication.
I suspect many Sovereign Grace members are saying the same thing…
A story I was reading this morning about problems in Washington state’s largest psychiatric hospital comes to mind- the charge is being made that employees who speak out about abuses in the system are being retaliated against- my point is, group dynamics are so predictable! The same methods are used to silence opposition whether it be a Christian organization or anything else. http://komonews.com/news/local/western-state-hospital-staff-say-they-face-retaliation
This quote:
“People talk, and they have a right to discuss matters as they see fit as long as they are not being intentionally disruptive or libelous,” she said. “Leadership does not need to respond to breakroom chatter as long as people feel able to bring their genuine concerns to their leaders without fear of retribution.”
This statement could fit so many church situations without any change.
Over years of seeing issues in churches silenced in this way, I have come to have a huge red flag pop up as soon as I hear words like “gossip” and “slander.” People talking about what has and is happening is NORMAL. As the person in the quote above said, people have a right to talk and discuss matters honestly. If people feel that it is wrong to openly discuss a matter, then it is a sign something is seriously wrong. If they willingly remain silent and try to silence others, they are helping perpetuate the problem.
Christians should not be people who fear the truth.
It’s just a way for abusers to continue the pattern of abuse by forcing people to look to them, rather than each other, for answers. If talking with another Christian about something that has genuinely happened to you, asking for advice about, warning someone about someone who’s toxic, etc. is classified as “sinful gossip”, then the fellowship will go straight to the devil–but of course, that’s the point, it’s what abusers want.
Quite late to these comments and I realize that my comment may detract from the purpose of the article (sorry). But I just can’t stop chuckling at this caption under one of the photos. It is a picture of one of the SGM churches, speaks of how close everyone was and ends with “and housed single church members in their basements.” This comment says so much about how singles are viewed. I get what it means, I attended an SGM church in Baltimore for 2 years. Keep the singles “covered” (in your basements). And don’t forget to give them multiple opportunities to serve you in their free, single capacity. Babysitting, errand running, homework tutor, house keeper. These singles are free to serve families. What a wonderful, glorious God-given opportunity – SGM singles are informed of this frequently. Again, sorry that I went down another path from the intention of the article. No disrespect intended. I’m done now….
I thought the article devastating in its understatement; article is not a polemic in any way.
This article is a must read!
Here is the summary we posted when the piece was first published.
Washingtonian Magazine Spotlights C.J. Mahaney, CLC, SGM
What I find so sad is that this has happened in so many churches and other institutions. I could name at least three churches in the area where I live where this occurred, with the same dynamics. Years later, the only people left who remember are those who were victimized. The only “good” thing I can see coming out of the SGM debacle is the possibility that more people will feel empowered to take on churches when they do not follow through with reporting to authorities. Churches also need to get wiser about what they allow staff members and volunteers to do. “I don’t care how much you love my kid, there are no sleepovers in staff member homes.” That just seems like common sense.
I am so glad the author mentioned Dever, Mohler and Piper. Maybe more people will see how spiritually bankrupt they are.
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Cousin: The article was 6 pgs. which is long, but not long enough to tell the whole horrid saga. I know many details of trauma and heartache had to be left out — someone needs to write a book to tell it all! In addition, journalistic magazines have their own editorial requirements on providing fairness to both sides and covering their backsides legally, etc. There were major issues of unethical behavior by leaders that was not covered in this article (like the blackmail, domestic abuse covered up, pastors fired for daring to speak out) but which have been discussed on various blogs. One 6 pg. article can’t cover all this mess.
I am wondering what response the various defenders of Mahaney and the SGM mess have made in reply to the article that the Washingtonian printed. Are they just ignoring it, defending their position or what?
The coneheads have hit the big time!
@ Muff Potter:
The Washingtonian is no penny-ante rag I’m told. And that’s a good thing cuz’ it lays to rest any retort that the victims are just disgruntled cry-babies.
Oh, Pam, my heart is with you, your family , and the other families involved. I actually think the author’s writing style will help to open the eyes of those who have blindly and foolishly “believed the best” of SGM leadership. Once they begin to give themselves permission to think, and evaluate, I think their hearts and minds may be more receptive to the lament of the children and their families as they tell their stories, whether in court or a more public venue.
nancyjane wrote:
That just about sums it up. Mohler, Piper and Dever are still drinking at the trough of CJ Mahaney. I read a comment on SGM Survivors in which Paul Kellen said the Mahaney paid for a sabbatical for Wayne Grudge. If this is true, I wonder how many other of the gospel™ dogs benefitted. We know Mohler’s seminary got a ton of moola from Mahaney and Mahaney has benefitted greatly from that friendship.
dee wrote:
1 Timothy 6:10 comes to mind….
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Cousin: Honestly, thank you for your care and support, however, we are just some of the public “faces” of the lawsuit, there are so many other survivors that couldn’t, for a whole host of reasons, stick their mug out there! I am so proud of my daughter and her husband, who forfeited their privacy for the sake of other little children. If leaders deny the cover-up happened and call us liars (directly or indirectly), why should anyone think that sexual abuse cover-up isn’t STILL happening in SGM or their former churches, like Covenant Life Church (CLC) or Sovereign Grace Church (SGC)?! Brent Detwiler posted on his blog that while our lawsuit was still active, there was a cover-up and pay-off by an SGM church of a sexual abuse case! RE: http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/hush-fund-set-up-by-top-sgm-leaders-to-meet-the-demands-of-a.html
nancyjane wrote:
Yes they are ignoring it. The Gospel™ Greed is just too great!
None of the T4G attendees would dare ask what happens to all the $$$$ generated at the upcoming event.
Yesterday in our bible study, my husband and I read a transition verse in Acts 6, that we have read before but passed over quickly, however, this time it gave us hope: “And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.” (v. 7) The “priests” of today, all the big dogs and other leaders — T4G16 – fellow – plenary – speakers with CJ ( Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, John Piper, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, David Platt, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung ) CAN repent and change. Many of the Jewish priests of that day, who presided over the sentencing of Jesus to death and the apostles’ beatings and imprisonment for preaching the gospel, repented and came to the faith! If God can do that, He can open the eyes of these men to do the right thing in relation to child sexual abuse and cover-up in churches. Pastors, don’t share the stage with a leader who is credibly accused of leading an organization, which has covered up child sexual abuse for over 30 years! Pastors, don’t attend T4G supporting an organization with your $$ when they are supporting an organization like Sovereign Grace. As Ronald Meldon Karren, a father of a sexual abuse victim from the Mormon church so clearly stated: “Pedophilia is a societal problem, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem – and donating to entities that perpetrate, hide or cover for perpetrators, only means that you are a financier of child molestation.” **Of note, R.C. Sproul, has recently backed out of speaking at T4G “in consultation with his medical advisors”.
Pam Palmer wrote:
That sounds like his health is bad. Not like he is standing for the abused. ???
@ Lydia:
Agreed. However, we can hope.
I thought the article did an excellent job of explaining the framework in which cover ups like this can happen. If people’s lives hadn’t been so cloistered within a community (sans plumber) they might not have turned to church leaders first when abuses happened. There’s a dynamic at play here.
Also, out of all the things the author could have included, she pointed out that Mahaney “flapped his arms.” Too funny.
Pam and Renee look fearless in that photo. Go, Pam!
Pam Palmer wrote:
I was not aware of that. Just went over to the T4G website and saw that explanation note at the speakers' link about Sproul not speaking in person.
K.D. wrote:
K.D. wrote:
This passage also comes to mind
“Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them”
(II Peter 2:2)
Sadly so many perhaps genuine since believers have followed Mahaney and those associated with him. Sadly this has brought reproach on the body of Christ.
Pam Palmer wrote:
As Christians (……true Christians), we are our own priests. Jesus made those fallible, human go-betweens unnecessary for us. I don’t know what these guys are. I know what they think they are, and they are wrong!
You and your daughter are awesome! I’m glad that God has given you, and others, the courage to come forward with the truth! Don’t just stay strong – grow stronger!
@ dee:
Grudem (ed.) acknowledges SGM funding in the preface to one of his books. You can read it here.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Jc6Pj5PoUAwC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=funding+%22wayne+grudem%22+sabbatical&source=bl&ots=QIgSre2far&sig=Me3yqh-KLzbhPkNUIK5l8rKgxZE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz5IfF-frKAhXH1xQKHeW1AmwQ6AEIKjAG#v=onepage&q=funding%20%22wayne%20grudem%22%20sabbatical&f=false
*Grudem, not Grudges
I do wish the title said “abuse scandal” instead of “sex scandal.” To me, a sex scandal has more to do with adults, something like Anthony Weiner texting pictures. What happened at SGM was abuse. (You guys might have said this when the article was first posted but I felt it was worth mentioning.)
Otherwise, great article.
Today I saw a Facebook post by a member of a former SGM church who said there was too much “gossip and slander” surrounding this article. He refused to give a link or even the name of the publication.
I suspect many Sovereign Grace members are saying the same thing…
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Agree 100%. The article is almost apologetically neutral, and yet devastating to SGM. Very powerful.
BoughtTheField wrote:
They have all been well trained to stick their heads in the sand.
@ Lowlandseer:
Thank you for that link. I had not read Wayne Grudem's Preface of his book Business for the Glory of God
Here is the pertinent quote from the Preface:
I'm getting a clearer understanding of why there is so much loyalty to C.J. Mahaney from the Neo-Cal leaders…
BoughtTheField wrote:
I wish I could say this really doesn’t surprise me. Sadly their broad definition of what is gossip or slander has allowed for a lot of at best questionable actions to occur. Members take this definition blindly and don’t even now see what it has allowed.
@ BoughtTheField:
Here’s how CLC has chosen to respond: https://thouarttheman.org/2016/01/30/is-p-j-smyth-enabling-child-sexual-abuse/
https://thouarttheman.org/2016/01/22/clcwashingtonianarticle/
Pam Palmer wrote:
If they wanted to cover it all, it would be a continuing series from now till doomsday.
J.M.
Thanks for sharing the link, Dee (and Deb)! I have written a piece on it from my perspective and back-linked to your more thorough treatment of the story that you did earlier. It continues to disturb me to see a pattern of evangelical pastors taking the position that they discouraged divorce for wives who discover their husbands are child molesters/pedophiles. SO DISTURBING!
Here’s what I wrote: http://www.divorceminister.com/sgm-scandals-and-what-ought-to-go-without-saying/
@ Deb:
Now THAT is disturbing…follow the money…sadly.
Muff Potter wrote:
And BITTER. Don’t forget BITTER.
Deb wrote:
All about the Benjamins, Baby!
dee wrote:
Bought And Paid For (HUMBLY, of course — chuckle chuckle).
Muff Potter wrote:
Let us Consume Mass Quantities!
Lydia wrote:
Yep.
But financially they are all doing quite well. As long as Mahaney keeps putting cash in their pockets they will remain his buddy. They only cut ties with Driscoll because he was no longer a cash cow. It’s all about the bottom line.
All I can say is that it is my observation….sadly..that the secular world/press/counselors understand abuse waaaaaaaay better than the saints.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
How is that possible? How are they able in this day and age to keep the coffers ka-chinging? I have my own opinion. Any others on how they can keep enough people cowed and docile?
@ abigail:
Totally. A friend works at a private school; there was a molestation incident. The child was believed, the police called, the school staff and parents ALL informed within 24 hrs. And the creep is NOT allowed back on campus. Period. How different it all is in the weird world of semantics and wrong-headed theology (aka the business of the church!) than a “secular” school? When will kids be truly protected? When we demand policies in our congregations that put children’s protection first. Period. Demand it in writing. If they won’t, vote with your feet. $$ Talks. It’s the sad reality of this world.
TIME has just published an article on sexual abuse at SGM.
http://time.com/4226444/child-sex-abuse-evangelical-church/?xid=tcoshare
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Yeah!! I hope a bald man in Louisville is sweeting profusely Todd!
@ Todd Wilhelm:
We plan to discuss this in an upcoming post.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
SGM is getting quite the coverage. Not the kind they want I’m sure.
@ Muff Potter:
From what I understand Mahaney still has the T$G conference business and perhaps others. And make no mistake, it is big business with vendors such as publishers, etc who pay to be there. My guess is the girlz are having to work. :o)
On a similar topic, an update on Fellowship Bible Church:
http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/williamson/brentwood/2016/02/16/judge-wont-dismiss-fellowship-bible-church-child-rape-suit/80467930/
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Excellent interview. The SGM pastors/elders never pass up a chance to be cheesy and inappropriate. In one breath, they tell her they just want to move on and not talk about it,,(,who cares about victims). Next breath they send her a card telling her they are praying for HER.
Guys I did a quick post about this…juts enough to blast over the Twitter universe!
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/time-magazine-writes-about-sovereign-graces-child-sex-abuse-issues-yet-c-j-mahaney-is-still-scheduled-to-speak-at-t4g-eagle-asks-why/
Eagle wrote:
You can bet he is.
R.C. Sproul has dropped out of the T4G conference citing health concerns. I believe if Mahaney does not “voluntarily withdraw” other celebrities will be dropping out. Mahaney may finally be approaching the toxicity levels of Mark Driscoll. Translation: the price of continued support of the humble little bald man exceeds the cash he is capable of producing for “good old boy” club of Christian celebrities.
P.S. I hope Josh “I Kissed CLC Goodbye” Harris is enjoying Spring Break in Vancouver, BC. Methinks he may soon be compelled to return to the scene of his crimes.
DONE! I just blasted it to T4G, David Platt, Thabiti Anyawbie, Justin Taylor, Joe Carter, etc… 🙂
How do I feel after seeing more publicity n this topic in such a national publication? This song expresses it perfectly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUmE-tne5U
Eagle wrote:
Nice! I like this song, it sums up Mahaney's feelings and Moby even resembles the Humble One.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQMMsv-LMjE
Muff Potter wrote:
“TITHE! TITHE! TITHE OR ETERNAL HELL!”?
Muff Potter wrote:
“TITHE AND PROVE YOU ARE ONE OF THE ELECT!”?
Bridget wrote:
But to NPD, even Bad Publicity is still Publicity and Attention.
Pam Palmer wrote:
I have often wondered this same thing!!
Blessings to you & your family for speaking out!!
Pam Palmer wrote:
That is a very wise statement. Thank you for sharing it with us here.
God’s promise to His people : “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.” Jer 32:40
I believe God will use this publicity to put the fear of God in many hearts. Though it hurts, in the long run the fear of God is a great blessing!
A young person inside the fold said the article is bull sh**. I was shaking after I saw that, and now I’m again. The amount of damage is devastating.
http://time.com/4226444/child-sex-abuse-evangelical-church/
Time magazine has some coverage too.
Oh nevermind- just saw it was already addressed!
I wonder if it would do any good if we mailed copies of the Time articles to leaders so that they would be reminded that people are not going to stand for child sexual abuse in the church
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Video not available in the USA.
Lydia wrote:
Don’t you know by now “I’ll Pray For You(TM)” is Christianese for “doing nothing and feeling good about it”?
“You have a saying: ‘I’ll Pray for You.’
We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”
— Filk of one of the best non-Londo lines from Babylon-5
@ Mandavilla:
I blasted it on Twitter last night! Justin Taylor, David Platt, Matt Chandler, etc.. all got it. Mark Dever in all his manliness blocked me a while back. What a coward….
@ Eagle:
Good for you,I am thinking about mailing a copy to all my ex sgm leaders who spoke doo doo into my life.Thirty years later I am just at a point where I feel that I am getting the smell out from my shoes.ha ha May justice be served.
Lowlandseer wrote:
I do not know how to thank you for this information. For years,I have been told by ex members of SGM that CJ funneled money to Grudem for hims to take a sabbatical and write this book. You have not given me the information that I need to write a post on this. I will give you full credit for this great piece of work. Thank you!!!!!!
dee wrote:
I shouldn’t speak for dee, but I’m pretty sure she meant “now” given me the the information…”
@ dee:
Dee that is a confirmation I reckon in Wayne Grudem’s own words. I guess I can Tweet that he did accept money from C.J. Mahaney. So that is two people….Molher, and Grudem.
Who is next? Who else accepted money? Did Mark Dever, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor, or D.A. Carson accept money from C.J. Mahaney? We need to find those links Dee and prove them. Remember what Deep Throat told Bob Woodward in the movie “All the President’s Men”…’Follow the money…” The key to unraveling the SGM scandal is find out who accepted money, who was bribes, and who was purchased. I think that will tell a lot about why things are the way they are.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/when-it-comes-to-c-j-mahaney-what-the-evangelical-christian-church-can-learn-from-deep-throat-and-watergate/
Eagle wrote:
Where did CJM get all of the money? Tithes and offerings?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I actually view it as a condescending insult coming from these guys. As if SHE needed praying for….why? They cannot see their own predicament in wanting to pretend it never took place so they can continue with empire building?
This sort of upside down Christianese cheesiness always reminds me of the story in John 9 of the man born blind interacting with the Pharisees and the man telling them that God does not hear the prayers of sinners. The SGM pastors are like the Pharisees yelling at the man born blind that Jesus healed: “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” :o)
That investigative reporter is a conduit for the healing of the victims of SGM evils. The SGM pastors are a conduit for enabling and protecting evil. What an upside down world in Christendom.
It’s hard to maintain your integrity when you accept tithe money collected by another from average working people in the pews not to go out into the rough mission field where you might be beaten and imprisoned and beheaded, like Paul of Tarsus did, but to cozy up and take time off from work and write a book which has the potential to make you a nice chunk of change. I think most people would feel, if they accepted that money from Mahaney, that it’d burn in their hands.
Eagle wrote:
It would probably be something akin to David Horowitz’ “Discover the Networks”. It took years to map that. You would have to “prove” publishing connections, speaker gig connections, etc, etc. Things that look normal to the average observer.
One thing I did find curious was that SGL came here and took up residence in some fancy offices in an office park. You can google an image at
303 North Hustbourne Lane, Louisville 40222.
However, they do church at the Marriott for a hundred or so. Why the offices right away? They would not need such an office for church. Could it be they are funneling SG business as in marketing the T$G conferences, SG Music stuff and such through the special tax status of a church organization? John Haggee did this years back when the amount of money of his non profit was bringing in became a source of internet fodder because people could now look it up. Now, it is hidden….
Lydia wrote:
I think they view her as the enemy of God for writing an article that exposes their church. In saying they are praying for her, they try to come across as the victims and the good guys because they are “praying for their enemy.” Sick.
Lydia wrote:
Because they perceive her as doing something terrible. This is the best explanation I’ve found:
http://countryoutfitter.life/southern-insults/
Or, as one of the commenters in the above article said: “Also, I’ll pray for you can be translated as ‘you are so far gone that only God Almighty can help you.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Wow, something can be viewed in the UAE but not the USA? That’s a first.
The video I referred to was Moby- Beautiful.
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Bridget wrote:
doubleplusgoodthink INGSOC.
Law Prof wrote:
Minus the $210 grand to ResultSource to juice it onto the best-seller lists.
Thank you all so much for the link to the article; I think it was good and informative, and I do hope that it reaches the eyes and ears of the Reformed “big dogs” who continue to support Mahaney and cause them to think more seriously about who they are supporting (CJ) and the seriousness of abuse in the church.
Additionally, I think they (the big dogs) should give more thought to actually supporting those who are reporting abuse cases within the church instead of instinctively characterizing those reporting as gossips and slanderers who are just “bitter.”
I would love to see someone write about how mental issues/psychiatric medications were handled at SGM. I told my story on this website a long time ago as well as at SGM Refuge and Survivors, but after almost five years at a SGM church, I ended up with a weeks vacation at a psych ward and extensive counseling after that.
While I don’t attribute ALL of my mental issues to SGM (it was a culmination of a lifetime of issues and experiences), I do many of them. My problems were exacerbated because of the suffocating, legalistic environment there and the way that my situation was handled. SGM did not value any counseling outside of the church; they somehow felt that the pastoral staff could handle any and every case that walked through the door.
Also, they were not supportive of psychiatric medications – it was somehow thought of as “happy pills”, as a way of avoiding responsibility for sin.
I know I could have pursued counseling on my own, apart from the church, and I did try, but I would feel “guilty” and quit. For whatever reason, I put an infinite amount of trust in these men; I basically considered what they said as having come from the mouth of God!
Thinking back on the situation, it was just crazy, but I really had just lost any ability to think for myself, and I did not listen to my instincts, which I learned in counseling were actually quite good.
My situation became extremely critical in the sense that I was dealing with EXTREME obsessive compulsive thoughts that I could not stop, and I was very suicidal. I was at home with three small kids, reaching out to the church for help, and they WOULD not recommend outside help. It was only when I reached out to our parents (mine and my husband’s) and medical help outside of the church was I able to get the help that I desperately needed.
SGM might have changed their minds on that issue; I don’t know because I haven’t really been keeping up with them for a long time. This happened ten years ago. But, I think that churches not only need to learn how to effectively deal with issues of abuse and really get it together, but they need to learn about mental health issues as well (instead of merely treating that as a “sin” or “heart” issue). Both of these issues are very much a part of the real world, and the church can not be effective until it can come to grip with these issues and stop living in a bubble.
traci94 wrote:
To me, that is the same thing as refusing to give a child antibiotics for a strep infection, or telling someone not to see medical care for cancer or a ruptured appendix because it is a sin issue.
PS
When I said the “church” needs to learn how to handle issues of abuse and mental illness, I was referring to the church as a whole, not just SGM. There might be some churches who deal with these issues really well, but I have a feeling that many are woefully lacking in their ability to deal with these cases effectively.
traci94 wrote:
Very well said!
I hope you are much better now and I am sorry that the SGM church prolonged your pain and suffering. It is very sad how much of the Church views mental health issues.
@ Bridget:
Bridget,
Thanks; I am in a much better place. Since my experience with SGM, we’ve been a part of two different churches, and they both handle those issues in a much healthier way. I mean, nowhere is perfect of course, but the difference between those two churches (one is Lutheran and our current one is Presbyterian PCA) and SGM is like night and day!
I’ve never seen anything like SGM before or since – they way they hammered in the authority of spiritual leaders, the leadership of the husband, the way they continually focused on “indwelling sin”, etc. It was sooooo unbalanced and unhealthy.
@ Nancy2:
Totally agree with you on that!
BoughtTheField wrote:
A story I was reading this morning about problems in Washington state’s largest psychiatric hospital comes to mind- the charge is being made that employees who speak out about abuses in the system are being retaliated against- my point is, group dynamics are so predictable! The same methods are used to silence opposition whether it be a Christian organization or anything else. http://komonews.com/news/local/western-state-hospital-staff-say-they-face-retaliation
This quote:
“People talk, and they have a right to discuss matters as they see fit as long as they are not being intentionally disruptive or libelous,” she said. “Leadership does not need to respond to breakroom chatter as long as people feel able to bring their genuine concerns to their leaders without fear of retribution.”
This statement could fit so many church situations without any change.
Over years of seeing issues in churches silenced in this way, I have come to have a huge red flag pop up as soon as I hear words like “gossip” and “slander.” People talking about what has and is happening is NORMAL. As the person in the quote above said, people have a right to talk and discuss matters honestly. If people feel that it is wrong to openly discuss a matter, then it is a sign something is seriously wrong. If they willingly remain silent and try to silence others, they are helping perpetuate the problem.
Christians should not be people who fear the truth.
traci94 wrote:
Did they ever discourage people from doing this?
traci94 wrote:
Do you think maybe this was your mind’s way of alerting you that you were in a bad situation? Just wondering; it seems like sometimes our will can force us to keep living in an unhealthy situation too long because we’re convinced it’s the way it’s ‘supposed to be’ until finally our body or mind says ‘no more.’ In so many churches we learn to ignore cognitive dissonance but there is a pressure exerted on us when we do this.
Lydia wrote:
Yes! this!
@ siteseer:
Hi. I’m not really sure how to answer your questions. Did they discourage that? No, I don’t think they did. Maybe they weren’t encouraging us to trust them as much as I did or to see their words as the same as God’s. I think they would certainly say that we shouldn’t trust man as much as God, but they certainly seemed to encourage unwavering trust in their leadership.
In my remembrance, we constantly heard about “coming alongside your leaders” and “joyfully serving your leaders”. We heard about it ad nauseam! And questioning leadership was pretty much “taboo”. It was as if we little people, the congregation, couldn’t have insight into any flaws in leadership. If questioned, leadership would always turn the tables on the questioner and she would be grilled about her “heart” issues. So, it was never THEIR problem, it was always YOUR problem, your sin or heart issues. I don’t know if this makes sense.
In both of my churches since, I fully believe that if I came to the pastor or an elder and brought something to his attention, I believe that he would have no problem with it at all and in fact, would probable welcome someone bringing it to his attention.
SGM always talked about their “apostolic” team; I think some of the pastors really did consider themselves “apostles”, maybe not quite on the level of Paul, but maybe a notch below!!
Yes, my mind probably was telling me to get the heck out of there. But, when your hammered week after week about following your husband’s lead and your husband is “led” to stay there, you start thinking that your the problem. I did talk to my husband and tell him I wanted out, and he was just not at the same place I was at the time. Looking back now, I would have put my foot down and emphatically stated, “I’m NOT going back there!!” I just didn’t have the courage then, and I thought that God would be mad at me if I did!! So, I kept going to a church where I felt sick attending week after week until I couldn’t physically go anymore!
My mind was just sick and tired. I had dealt with OCD, much milder versions, off and on since childhood. But, this reached an unbearable level; my mind started going from the time I woke up until the time I went to bed, and I had no rest. When I lost the ability to sleep, that is when I became suicidal. I could not escape from my thoughts, and I saw no other option than killing myself in order to find relief. When I got the medications that I needed, they kicked in and I began to function as a human being again. I had the ability to calm my thoughts, to say to myself, “I’m not going to think about this anymore.” Prior to that, I had lost the ability to do that.
I did talk to the pastor about 6 or 8 months after I left, and I confronted him about this issue. I said that they taught that EVERY AREA of our lives are affected by sin, including our physical bodies. The church had no problem with people seeking medical care for their physical bodies – debilitating headaches, etc. Why do they treat our minds differently?
Anyway, I hope that answers your questions!
traci94 wrote:
Back when they were called “People of Destiny, International”, didn’t their founder/leader HUMBLY(TM) title himself “Head Apostle”?
@ traci94:
What a heartbreaking testimony! So glad you are doing better now.
siteseer wrote:
It’s just a way for abusers to continue the pattern of abuse by forcing people to look to them, rather than each other, for answers. If talking with another Christian about something that has genuinely happened to you, asking for advice about, warning someone about someone who’s toxic, etc. is classified as “sinful gossip”, then the fellowship will go straight to the devil–but of course, that’s the point, it’s what abusers want.
Quite late to these comments and I realize that my comment may detract from the purpose of the article (sorry). But I just can’t stop chuckling at this caption under one of the photos. It is a picture of one of the SGM churches, speaks of how close everyone was and ends with “and housed single church members in their basements.” This comment says so much about how singles are viewed. I get what it means, I attended an SGM church in Baltimore for 2 years. Keep the singles “covered” (in your basements). And don’t forget to give them multiple opportunities to serve you in their free, single capacity. Babysitting, errand running, homework tutor, house keeper. These singles are free to serve families. What a wonderful, glorious God-given opportunity – SGM singles are informed of this frequently. Again, sorry that I went down another path from the intention of the article. No disrespect intended. I’m done now….