Spotlight: I Knew Father Birmingham

“I feel that some people have a hard time with the truths around us, not only the sexual abuse by priests, but all bad things. I call it chosen ignorance. This modified form of ignorance is found in people who, if confronted with certain truths realize that they have to accept them and thereby acknowledge evil, and that scares them. Opening up and letting the truth in might knock them off their perceived center. It is too hard, period.” ― Charles L. Bailey Jr., In the Shadow of the Cross link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=25728&picture=cry
link

Yesterday, the Deebs went to see Spotlight.

Spotlight is a 2015 American drama film directed by Thomas McCarthy and written by McCarthy and Josh Singer.[4][5] It is about The Boston Globe’s “Spotlight” team, the oldest continuously operating newspaper investigative unit in the United States.[6] The film depicts the team methodically uncovering a pattern of sexual abuse of children by Roman Catholic priests in Massachusetts and an ongoing cover-up by the Boston Archdiocese. It is based on a series of stories by the real Spotlight Team that earned The Globe the 2003 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.[

This movie had personal meaning to me because I knew the second priest outed by the Spotlight team. Deb encouraged me to write about my personal interest. Today I write about my personal connection. We will discuss more of the issues highlighted by the movie next week.

Father Birmingham of St James Church, Salem, Ma.

Kathy, JJ, Patrick, Steven, Marsha..these are some of the names of the kids who lived on my street in Salem, Massachusetts. We were all friends and loved to race go karts.  Except for my brother and me, these kids went to the Catholic school and attended the Catholic church, St James, down the street.  We loved St James church because one of the priests, Father Birmingham, would lets us race our go karts in the huge church parking lot when church and school was not in session. We laughed as he would take one of our karts for a spin. He would even invite us into the rectory where he would give us treats! We thought he was cool.

He was so nice to us that I decided that I would become a Catholic (I was about 10 years old.) My friends taught me what to do in confession and made sure that Father Birmingham would be hearing confessions the day I decided to try it. He knew who I was and he went along with my confession, assigning me the punishment of a few "Hail Marys" and about 10 "Our Fathers". My parents were not particularly supportive of my desire to "become Catholic" and my interest faded over time. However, we still raced our go karts and Father Birmingham was still friendly. 

Most pedophiles are clever, charismatic and know how to relate to the kids. They are fun to be around and even kind. To this day, I have to remind myself that Father Birmingham wasn't the fun loving priest that was so nice to this non-Catholic girl.  Father Birmingham was a pedophile and was molesting one of the boys who I grew up with. Birmingham would become one of the first priests that would be outed by The Boston Globe. He allegedly abused over 100 boys, as well as my friend.

Here is a link to the original Spotlight article about him. Spotlight is the name of the investigative team at the Globe.

But in the case of Birmingham, who was ordained in 1960 and died in 1989, the public evidence that the church stood by and did nothing to stop him early in his career appears to be even stronger: Separate groups of parents from Birmingham's first two parish assignments said they went to the Archdiocese of Boston with accounts of his serial abuse – to no avail.

…In response to Globe inquiries, McCormack, who was assigned to the same Salem parish as Birmingham in the 1960s, denied that he ever saw Birmingham bringing boys into his rectory bedroom. But he acknowledged that in 1970 or thereabouts he was warned that Birmingham was molesting children at St. James in Salem.

Yet there is evidence that church officials also knew of Birmingham's abusive behavior in the early 1960s, and that Birmingham began preying on young boys soon after he left the seminary. But the archdiocese apparently did nothing to restrict his access to children.

…The number of Birmingham victims is so large – as many as 25 alone from his third assignment in Lowell in the 1970s – that his profile is similar to former priest John J. Geoghan, who was rotated through six parishes of his own, where he allegedly accumulated close to 200 victims even though high church officials knew he was molesting children.

…Howard McCabe, a Sudbury parent who met with archdiocese officials in the early 1960s after Birmingham allegedly molested his son, said he was stunned to learn that the priest's only penalty was to be sent to a parish in Salem.

Last month, the Globe reported that Mary McGee and several other mothers from St. James in Salem – unaware that Sudbury parents had preceded them – also took their complaints to the chancery in 1970, just after Birmingham had been shifted to his third parish, in Lowell.

This is another original Spotlight story which discusses the testimony of some of the men who were molested as boys at St James Church.

t was the late 1960s. The man behind the wheel was their parish priest, the Rev. Joseph E. Birmingham. The boys were only 10, 11, or 12, but already they knew the routine: "Father B." would get them into his car, take them for ice cream, to the beach, or to a ballgame. But the outings would inevitably evolve into something more. The last one to be dropped off — "the last one out," the boys called it — would be the unlucky one. 

"At first, the car trips were fun," recalls McDaid. "But then a pattern developed. The last boy out of the car would get fondled and rubbed and assaulted, and Father B. would ask, `Does that feel good? Don't you think you might like boys?' And you'd say, `No, Father. I like girls, Father.' " 

McDaid tried to avoid the car. But his parents, devout Irish immigrants, thought priests were royalty; a visit from one was considered a high honor. They couldn't understand their son's reluctance to get into the car, and they would command him to do so. 

So Bernie and his friends developed other strategies. "We'd all get out of the car as soon as he'd drop the first one off," says McDaid. "We'd literally jump out of the car."

Just like the Southern Baptist crowd dominated society in the Bible Belt, the Catholic Church ruled the culture in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc. The church leaders knew how to play the political game, and they were supportive of the Kennedy family which was revered not only by Catholics but by those who grew up in working class neighborhoods. However, rumors were beginning to surface about priests that were hurting children. Unfortunately, those stories were buried deep inside the very thick Boston Globe because the newspaper also had ties to the church. More about that in another post.

My father became the chief of staff of a hospital that specialized in alcohol and substance abuse treatment. Since that hospital no longer exists and my father has passed away, I feel comfortable in sharing this next piece of information. He told my mom (and I was listening in) that the hospital signed a contract with the Archdiocese of Boston to take care of priests who abused alcohol and other substances. My father was stunned by the number of clergy that needed to be admitted for detox and treatment.

During that time, he became aware of stories that were surfacing about priests that "liked" kids. One time, late at night, I overheard him telling my mother that he felt some of those pedophile priests turned to alcohol as a way to escape their guilt. I know it was an issue that bothered him throughout the remainder of his life. 

Next week I will discuss this movie more in depth but not as a movie review. I want to look at what happened in this story and compare it to what is currently happening in the evangelical world in regards to the response to child sex abuse. There is little difference between the responses of the RCC, evangelicals, and society as a whole. 

Thoughts

1. Celibacy does not cause someone to become a pedophile.

I am quite tired of evangelicals saying that, if priests could be married, the Catholic church would avoid pedophilia. Pedophilia is not a way to cope with celibacy. It is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult develops a sexual preference for children. Celibacy does not cause pedophilia.

2. The evangelical church has a terrible problem with pedophilia and our pastors can get married.

In my former church, a seminary student was simultaneously dating a young woman and molesting young teen boys in the church. Mosey on over to Stop Baptist Predators and see how many Baptist pastors seem to like kids. Boz Tchividijian had this to say:

While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.

3. I believe that many Catholics are Christians just like I believe that many members of The Gospel™ Coalition are Christians. 

I have doctrinal differences with both groups. Please do not let this comment thread degenerate into people who are judge and jury of who is getting into heaven.

4. Independent journalists as well as bloggers have been influential in exposing serious problems with clergy child sex abuse.

As we have discovered, friends and allies always defend one another. Sometimes, they even cover up for one another. This movie highlights the need for an independent press.

The importance of caring for the least of these.

Christianity Today posted Spotlight" What happens when good men stop doing nothing? by Kenneth R. Morefield

Spotlight is all the more powerful for being so understated. Ultimately, I would argue, the toll of bringing the truth to life, and the sheer horror of that truth, while never expressly stated, is evident in each character’s numbed, pained incredulity. If it is true, as Shakespeare once wrote, that the evil men do lives after them, perhaps one of the greatest goods we can enact is to finally acknowledge that evil and speak the truth about it.

Of course, doing so will not change the past, but it can change us in the present. But if we come to care more about the “least of these” than we do about our own or God’s reputation, perhaps we will have taken the first small step towards becoming a light, rather than cursing the darkness.

Next week we will explore some of the issues on child sex abuse coverup as raised by the movie. If you are interested in learning more about Father Birmingham, here are some links.

Bishop Accountability

Do You Remember Father Birmingham?

New York Times: A Second Priest in Boston Is Accused of Years of Abuse

 

Comments

Spotlight: I Knew Father Birmingham — 126 Comments

  1. According to the movie 6% of the Roman Catholic clergy were pedophiles. Probably the same with Evangelicals.

  2. Cardinal O’Connor never realky answered for any of thid, did he? (Hope i got his surname right.)

  3. 1. Celibacy does not cause someone to become a pedophile.

    2. The evangelical church has a terrible problem with pedophilia and our pastors can get married.

    Thank you. I’m a celibate adult and have zero desire to touch children sexually. I am zero, zippo attracted to children.

    I’ve read studies that a larger percentage of child molesters are married men – there are more married ones than single ones.

  4. Janey wrote:

    According to the movie 6% of the Roman Catholic clergy were pedophiles. Probably the same with Evangelicals.

    I’ve seen estimates the regular population is 4 or 5 percent with the urge but the urge is one thing acting on it is another. So I wonder how the the 6% stat compares with the general population.

    Couple this with the large over-representation of narcissism in the clergy and it is yet another reason I’m highly suspicious of the whole construct of the modern church, something is terribly wrong. That such people are attracted to the position can question the legitimacy of the professional clergy role. That so many make into the position, and remain protected there, is a significant warning the system is debased.

  5. 1. Celibacy does not cause someone to become a pedophile.
    2. The evangelical church has a terrible problem with pedophilia and our pastors can get married.

    Besides this, there’s another depressingly common belief in evangelical circles about pedophiles; since the gender of the abused children comes up often in these conversations (usually as a way to further vilify the so-called “militant you-know-whos”), I’m just going to leave this link below, for some background on the science of gender with respect to child abuse.

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

  6. The famous quote, alluded to in the title of the Christianity Today article and usually attributed – but probably wrongly – to Edmund Burke goes something like this:

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    On the other hand, Proverbs 25 contains the following:

    Like a muddied spring or a polluted well are the righteous who give way to the wicked.

    IOW: People who do nothing in the face of evil are not “good men” (or women).

  7. As long as we’re reminding everybody of these distinctions, there is an awkward but psychologically crucial difference between sexual attraction to children per se, vs. post-pubescent teenagers. The latter is psychologically quite normal, though such desires still need to be suppressed through age-of-consent laws, self-control, threats from relatives, and so forth.

  8. Such awful stuff. My Irish Granny, who gave up her job as a Priest’s Housekeeper aged 86 found out that the Father she’d worked the longest for years before had been a paedophile. My Mum found out that the orphanage attached to her convent school had also had problems with child abuse. Last time I was in Ireland the effect those revelations had had on public respect for the Church was tangible. I recorded my Gran talking about her life (she was born in Dublin in 1922) a few years ago & that was definitely a world in which the Priests were royalty. I still find that gap between how the Priests were viewed & what some of them did mind boggling. How dare they touch the children in their care?

  9. A good reminder pedophilia doesn’t discriminate across theological lines. It’s cunning is in opportunity…..where the children are, they will be present.

  10. Zla’od wrote:

    As long as we’re reminding everybody of these distinctions, there is an awkward but psychologically crucial difference between sexual attraction to children per se, vs. post-pubescent teenagers. The latter is psychologically quite normal, though such desires still need to be suppressed through age-of-consent laws, self-control, threats from relatives, and so forth.

    Good comment. We must not confuse normal vs abnormal with good vs bad or legal vs illegal. It does not do society any good to label the common criminal as some sort of mental case and therefore someone whose behavior is not quite as bad because he has the can’t help its. And conversely if some condition is in fact mental illness-some biological or emotional malfunction that reaches that level-then we must not hesitate to isolate and neutralize the problem and forgiveness is not the answer. The problem here is that the definitions of normal vs abnormal are societal constructs based on what? When different cultures see it differently, who is correct when it actually comes to mental illness?

    We do so need in our society to get the science right, and get the laws right and pull our heads out and quit being cowards and protect those who cannot protect themselves. In order to not have to face reality we enable abuse and all sorts of evils.

    We must not say that there is no such thing as incurable mental illness and that forgiveness will make it be alright. We must not say that there is no such thing as evil and that we need to quit it already with the ancient superstitions that say that evil is real. And we must not say that every illegal act must necessarily be either mental illness or evil per se, sometimes it is merely illegal because our society says it is illegal (like left turn on red so to speak).

  11. From the post: ” There is little difference between the responses of the RCC, evangelicals, and society as a whole. ”

    Oh yeah. Preach it. Great post. Looking forward to the series.

  12. Clarification. Some of you with a charismatic background hear the word ‘evil’ and think ‘demons.’ I do not have a charismatic background and that is not what I mean. There was a radio drama decades ago which had a narrator who used to say in some really scary voice ‘evil lurks with the heart of man.’ That is what I mean. I do think there are evil spiritual realities, I do not discount the idea of demons, but that is not what I am talking about. I mean like God said to Cain, that sin is crouching and teshuqah you and you must overcome it.

  13. Dee,

    What an incredible movie! It was so chockful of names/information that we need to see it a second time.

    Thanks for sharing your childhood story. I hope it serves as a warning to parents to keep a close eye on pastors and priests who pay too much attention to their children. 🙁

  14. numo wrote:

    Cardinal O’Connor never realky answered for any of thid, did he? (Hope i got his surname right.)

    Neither did Mahoney of Los Angeles.

  15. Daisy wrote:

    I’ve read studies that a larger percentage of child molesters are married men – there are more married ones than single ones.

    Better camouflage.
    Plus, like Pastor’s Court Favorite in Moscow (Idaho), you can breed your own prey.

  16. okrapod wrote:

    There was a radio drama decades ago which had a narrator who used to say in some really scary voice ‘evil lurks with the heart of man.’

    THE SHADOW.
    Best-known of the classic pulp crimefighters of the Thirties.
    (Though The Spider racked up a much higher body count per story.)

    “WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN?
    THE SHADOW KNOWS…”

  17. okrapod wrote:

    Clarification. Some of you with a charismatic background hear the word ‘evil’ and think ‘demons.’

    And say hello to Bob Larson:
    “DEMONS! DEMONS! DEEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!”

  18. Christopher Hitchens was a man I admired. I found him to be brutally honest in his contemplation of God. I would disagree with his conclusion that there is no God but nonetheless admire his rigorous investigation of the subject.

    He was interviewed concerning the revelation that the Pope covered up the sexual abuse of children and had this to say:

    “It’s no longer up to the church to decide this or how to police itself. All it’s good at is forgiving the criminals and ignoring the pleas of the victims. Enough of forgiveness – we need justice here.”

    He also stated that the clergy who covered up the abuse should be charged as an accessory to the crimes.

    I agree. And I hope and pray that the former “pope” of Sovereign Grace Churches – C.J. Mahaney – will someday be charged as an accessory to crimes for covering up the sexual abuse of children in his corporation/denomination.

    All the evangelical “leaders” who have enabled C.J. Mahaney and continue to speak at conferences with him will have to give an answer for their actions someday.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp6oU0PqXZk

  19. I would like to encourage everyone reading this post to buy a copy of Dr. Anna Salter’s book “Predators”. I know the Deebs have mentioned it before, which is why I started to read it. I’m only halfway through, but it’s given me a lot of good information and statistics in regards to pedophilia and other sexual aggressors, and cites reputable studies rather than just hearsay.

    It is similar to reading Gail Dines’ book “Pornland”, another I highly recommend. They are hard to stomach, but worth getting a more solid, expert view to be able to bring to discussions like this and even more so to discussions in real life.

    I know DA Carson is not a popular man around here, but he did once say something that I quote and think of every time I talk about sexual abuse: “Ignorance may be bliss, but it’s certainly not a virtue.”

  20. There’s a big knot in ky throat and a hole in my heart after reading. I take a breath trying to breath as I know that my boy experienced grooming and abuse. It wasn’t by a priest or a pastor but the,response was the same. They protected my sons perpetrator and accused my child of being a homosexual and a lier. I just recently found out that my son was victimized by his perpetrator prior to his assault. The fear these boys experienced is what my son went through and because I’m a mother who grieves for my son’s loss I find myself grieving for the children (boys) being abused. I can not wait until I can share this story with these two beautiful ladies at the wartburg watch. I can’t wait because my heart burns for justice for light to be shined in such darkness and evil. The abuse it seems is even worse when those who know do NOTHING!! and that’s all I can say.

  21. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    ISHOULDHAVEBOUGHTAHONDABUTIBOUGHTAHYUNDAI

    So now there’s a Mahoney and a Mahaney? With names like that, how will I be able to keep these clergy who cover up child abuse straight?

  22. I have one problem with this focus on Boston. the pedophile priest scandal first broke here in New Mexico in the early 90s. Why here? Priests from all over the country were sent here to the Servants of the Paraclete in Jemez Springs for “treatment”. Once deemed cured, they were sent to parishes all over the Southwest to accumulate new victims. I feel that these victims, hispanic and native american, often are ignored in the media’s focus on Boston or other big cities. The Archdiocese of Gallup is facing bankruptcy as insurance companies argue who is going to pay damages. New victims are still coming forward, but no movie will ever focus on their suffering. So if you pray, pray for our victims too.

  23. @ nmgirl:
    Today The Daily Beast has a story on a group of “Minnesota Monks”. I wonder if some similarly were hidden in New Mexico post exposure as pedophiles.

  24. Abuse is abuse and whether it breaks in one economic class or the other the point is to shed light on it, period. That is the point of this article and from what I understand this blog has a huge reader base. Boz of “GRACE” and others like Justin Holcomb and his wife who are not just hearing bUT doing something That story in Boston was picked up most likely because it caught the attention of a reporter who wanted to break that story. Abuse is in every class of home rich , poor, n9 matter ethnicity. Because if we get down to it what about our brothers and sisters right now as we speak being sold into the SEX TRADE BY ISIS…..??? They to endure unspeakable horrors so we need to keep the focus on what’s important and that is shedding light on abuse no matter where it occurs nmgirl wrote:

    I have one problem with this focus on Boston. the pedophile priest scandal first broke here in New Mexico in the early 90s. Why here? Priests from all over the country were sent here to the Servants of the Paraclete in Jemez Springs for “treatment”. Once deemed cured, they were sent to parishes all over the Southwest to accumulate new victims. I feel that these victims, hispanic and native american, often are ignored in the media’s focus on Boston or other big cities. The Archdiocese of Gallup is facing bankruptcy as insurance companies argue who is going to pay damages. New victims are still coming forward, but no movie will ever focus on their suffering. So if you pray, pray for our victims too.

  25. Mae wrote:

    A good reminder pedophilia doesn’t discriminate across theological lines. It’s cunning is in opportunity…..where the children are, they will be present.

    Where the prey gathers, the predators will swarm.

  26. Sarah wrote:

    I know DA Carson is not a popular man around here, but he did once say something that I quote and think of every time I talk about sexual abuse: “Ignorance may be bliss, but it’s certainly not a virtue.”

    With what’s been coming to light, more like:
    “Ignorance is Bliss AND I DEMAND EUPHORIA!”

  27. Bill M wrote:

    Couple this with the large over-representation of narcissism in the clergy and it is yet another reason I’m highly suspicious of the whole construct of the modern church, something is terribly wrong. That such people are attracted to the position can question the legitimacy of the professional clergy role. That so many make into the position, and remain protected there, is a significant warning the system is debased.

    A huge concern of mine, too. And one reason I question the concept of a clergy class as I believe is read into the NT.

  28. okrapod wrote:

    Some of you with a charismatic background hear the word ‘evil’ and think ‘demons.’ I do not have a charismatic background and that is not what I mean.

    Me either. I was a bit amused listening to NT Wright try to explain this one in a talk. He finally settled on “forces”. :o)

  29. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    “It’s no longer up to the church to decide this or how to police itself. All it’s good at is forgiving the criminals and ignoring the pleas of the victims. Enough of forgiveness – we need justice here.”

    Oh boy is he right. I became very frustrated with the constant “forgiveness” talk coming from pastors and their brain dead followers. The focus was always on “how come you cannot forgive them. Don’t you believe in repentance”. Then it becomes all about “watching” them at church, escorting them everywhere (yeah, right) and so on. The whole focus is on the predator’s repentance and NOT the innocent victims.

    We saw this attitude all over the YRR movement recently with The Village Church debacle concerning the predator, Jordan Root.

    I don’t trust someone else’s long con predatory behavior “as a Christian” and then instant repentance. There is more safety for the innocents when we seek justice.

  30. nmgirl wrote:

    I have one problem with this focus on Boston. the pedophile priest scandal first broke here in New Mexico in the early 90s. Why here? Priests from all over the country were sent here to the Servants of the Paraclete in Jemez Springs for “treatment”.

    I will be dealing with the scandal from around the world. The reason the focus on Boston in this post was that it was based on the movie and The Boston Globe. I then wanted to address it from a personal perspective.

    Thanks to your comment, I will also look into the supposed treatment™ facility or would *hideout* be a more precise term? I spent two years in New Mexico in Gallup, working for the Navajo Tribe. New Mexico has a special place in my heart. It truly is the Land of Enchantment. After my husband retires, we may try to do a locum tenens back on the reservation for a few months at a time.

  31. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Christopher Hitchens was a man I admired. I found him to be brutally honest in his contemplation of God. I would disagree with his conclusion that there is no God but nonetheless admire his rigorous investigation of the subject.

    I loved Christopher Hitchens. I watched his material during my faith crisis. He was honest, engaging and stimulating. I almost felt like you could watch his mind work when he thought. He was a seeker…I still think he was on his journey and investigating. Who might have known what would have happened in the course of time. Because of my experience and watching and processing Hitch I think a lot of people are closer to the faith than many people want to admit. Here’s a post I wrote about Hitch.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/a-personal-reflection-on-the-late-christopher-hitchens/

  32. It seems like there are 2 main classes of people in the church. The crafty and shrewd, and the gullible and witless. You might say the wolves and the sheep. The deceivers and the deceived.

    There are those with eyes wide open but their numbers are few.

    The working relationship between the deceivers and deceived makes it impossible for abuse to be handled. It needs to be taken out of the church’s hands somehow.

  33. Lydia wrote:

    The focus was always on “how come you cannot forgive them. Don’t you believe in repentance”. Then it becomes all about “watching” them at church, escorting them everywhere (yeah, right) and so on. The whole focus is on the predator’s repentance and NOT the innocent victims.

    Repentance & forgiveness Do Not alter the principle of sowing and reaping.
    Karma and her sister comeuppance are relentless and do not stop until Themis’s balances are reset.

  34. @ Sarah:

    I read excerpts from the Anna Salter book on a book site, probably Amazon, and what I read was so disturbing.

    If I could take my brain out and soak it in Lysol to forget or lessen the impact of what I saw, I would. But it is a very educational book.

    Another blog member (Velour) here linked to videos on You Tube and elsewhere with commentary or interviews with Salter.

    I think this is one of the podcasts she linked us to:
    Predators Among Us: Interview With Dr. Anna Salter
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sottradionetwork/2013/12/08/predators-among-us-interview-with-dr-anna-salter

  35. Lydia wrote:

    The focus was always on “how come you cannot forgive them. Don’t you believe in repentance”.

    My other favorite they repeat a lot:
    “But we’re all sinners!”

    Yes, true, but some sins are worse than others, as even the Bible puts forward.

    I may have done stuff like taken a ball point pen from a bank once (unintentionally; I put it in my purse when done without thinking about it, ’til I got home and saw it, was too lazy to drive back and return it).

    But I don’t fondle kids like Sandusky, and I never would. I have no desire for kids like that, nor would I ever hurt a kid.

    If you had kids at home, who would you rather babysit if needed a baby sitter, me, the pen stealer sinner, or Sandusky who is attracted to children and assaults them sinner?

    “But we’re all sinners!!!!” 🙄

  36. Daisy wrote:

    “But we’re all sinners!!!!”

    Ummm, no I’m not a sinner by default. I’m only a sinner if my deeds cause real harm to others in real time and in real space.
    Ah Potter’s heresy knows no bounds!

  37. Eagle,

    Had CH lived longer, it’s possible he might have at least wound up where Anthony Flew did.

    I should actually check out some of Hitchens’ stuff. Peter can sometimes be rather engaging himself.

  38. siteseer wrote:

    It seems like there are 2 main classes of people in the church. The crafty and shrewd, and the gullible and witless. You might say the wolves and the sheep. The deceivers and the deceived.

    The Predators and the Prey.

  39. @ Janey:

    Not true.

    According to the movie, at least 16% (SIXTEEN) of Catholic priests are pedo-priests.

    Richard Sipe says on the phone that he thinks it is 6%, but at the end of the movie, they’ve found 249, out of 1500, which is 16%.

    The number is now known to be 271, according to a recent Globe article.

  40. @ Bill M:

    Again, you are distorting the truth. Where did you get the “4 or 5%” number? Was that an estimate, i.e. someone’s made up number?

    The Catholic 6% number that you reference was based on actual cases that Richard Sipe saw, but as the movie makes clear, in the Catholic church in Boston, it was 249 out of 1500, or 16% pedo-priests, and that number is now up to 271/1500.

  41. @ Daisy:

    One of Satan’s favorite phrases is “We’re all sinners”, meaning it’s ok, everyone is doing it.

    Jesus said childrape was unforgivable in Matt 18:6

  42. Daisy wrote:

    My other favorite they repeat a lot:
    “But we’re all sinners!”

    This goes a little off subject, but I have a question as to whether someone without a conscience is even capable of repentance. My friends counter with “but God can do anything! God can change anyone’s heart!” but honestly I have doubts.

    Conscience is like language, it’s developed at a certain crucial stage early in life. If it doesn’t get developed then, I don’t think it ever can.

    So… am I a heretic for feeling some people are beyond God’s grace? Or is the typical Christian hopelessly naive?

  43. Muff Potter wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    “But we’re all sinners!!!!”
    Ummm, no I’m not a sinner by default. I’m only a sinner if my deeds cause real harm to others in real time and in real space.
    Ah Potter’s heresy knows no bounds!

    I am right there with you at heretic central on this one.

  44. john mccormack wrote:

    Again, you are distorting the truth. Where did you get the “4 or 5%” number? Was that an estimate, i.e. someone’s made up number?

    Welcome!

    I don’t believe for a minute Bill M. is trying to distort the truth. Maybe he can tell you where he got those numbers. We don’t need to accuse him of anything though.

  45. @ JYJames:
    I* think one of our priests came from Minnesota. Let me do some research.
    And Dee, Thank you for keeping up with all this.

  46. john mccormack wrote:

    at the end of the movie, they’ve found 249, out of 1500, which is 16%.

    That was a stunning number. I also found it interesting that @50% of priests do not keep their vow of celibacy.

  47. Pedophiles can show up anywhere. Schools, sports teams, Scouts have all had their share of scandal. I think churches have a special attraction. In general they tend to be on the insular side. Often the parents will either adore or believe the pastor/priest more than they will their own children. In many cases the parents own faith is used against them. And what is the root?
    The Bible. The man is the pinnacle of creation. A woman’s or child’s testimony does not carry the same weight. If the man is ordained by the Church then the more so as he has been uniquely placed above you in a position by none other than God himself. In many traditions the Church = God therefore it would be against God to bring charges against his servants as the man is a “brother in Christ” – cue the forgiveness angle.
    One example that I recall is from Job. God allows Job’s family to be destroyed.
    “18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    But don’t worry, God gave him a new one (funny there’s no mention of the wife – or wives):
    “12 And the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning. And he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 yoke of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He had also seven sons and three daughters. ”

    I think this idea of the “disposable family” came from the fact that infant/child mortality was very high and many women also lost their lives to child birth and related complications. Not that men didn’t feel grief but I do think that death was less of an abstraction and more a fact of life. Men probably did live longer which may have led to a great ascendancy in the culture.

    Anyway these ideas continue to have ramifications into the 21st century – unfortunately with devastating results.

  48. @ Jack:
    P.S – It just occurred to me that the sheep, camels, oxen and donkeys took top billing. The kids are almost a postscript and wife doesn’t even rate a mention. That was the way things were in the culture at the time.

  49. Jack wrote:

    But don’t worry, God gave him a new one (funny there’s no mention of the wife – or wives):

    I’m not sure if I’m following you here, but I don’t recall his wife being taken away. She told Job “curse God and die.”

    Job 2:9
    His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”

  50. Dee,

    Thank you for addressing this painful but necessary topic. Your comments are always insightful and edifying.

    However may I comment on an issue you raised. You state:

    “3. I believe that many Catholics are Christians just like I believe that many members of The Gospel™ Coalition are Christians.

    I have doctrinal differences with both groups. Please do not let this comment thread degenerate into people who are judge and jury of who is getting into heaven.”

    You surprise me with this opinion.

    I agree that it’s not up to us to determine who will be in heaven. But aren’t you doing precisely that by saying you “believe many catholics are christians”?. Is that not a value judgement? BTW how do you arrive at “many”? Would you say the same about other churches and religions, Mormons, JWs, Muslims? Jesus teaches us to let God be God in choosing and calling sinners, but he also calls us to test spirits in our relationships. (Sorry, he isn’t as PC as we’d like him to be.)

    I think it’s helpful to distinguish between 1. what a church officially teaches, and 2. the personal relationship of a person with Jesus.

    The Bible calls us to assess what a church teaches and what a person believes because false teaching leads people to disaster. (eg Matthew 28 false christs; Galatians, “another gospel”). On the other hand adherents of false churches can conceivably be believers – eg, they may have recently come to know Christ, but are still ignorant of the Bible’s teaching and their church’s doctrine. In the same way it’s conceivable that people who live an immoral lifestyle can be believers; (adulterers, tax cheats, pedophiles???). I believe it’s important to clarify that although a person can become a believer while they are still associated with a false church or identify with an immoral lifestyle, God wants them to grow in their relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit will assist them (over time) to be more like Jesus; ie to separate themselves from false teaching and immoral lifestyles. So it’s a distinction between justification and sanctification.

    The Roman Catholic Church has an official, explicit doctrinal statement. It does not, and has never taught that:
    1. The Bible is the ultimate authority in matters of faith;
    2. A person is saved by grace alone (through the once for all sacrifice of Christ for sin); and
    3. A person is saved through faith alone in Christ.

    Although Catholicism acknowledges the sacrifice of Christ, it is ultimately a religion of works. That’s why no Roman Catholic who is consistent with their church’s official teaching can be sure of their salvation. The latest Catechism states that adherents who sin, need to be “re-justified”. Catholicism has always confused justification with sanctification.

    Dee, this is not merely a matter of “doctrinal differences”. Let’s lovingly state it as it really is.

    Cheers
    Piero

  51. siteseer wrote:

    My friends counter with “but God can do anything! God can change anyone’s heart!” but honestly I have doubts.

    “God can change a cow into a tree, but has He ever done so? Bring evidence!”
    — some cleric in Medieval times

    And JMJ over at Christian Monist used to write about the results of the Christianese idea that redemption/change of heart/new creature in Christ is instantaneous and total, and never ever ever regresses.

  52. Daisy wrote:

    Jack wrote:
    But don’t worry, God gave him a new one (funny there’s no mention of the wife – or wives):
    I’m not sure if I’m following you here, but I don’t recall his wife being taken away. She told Job “curse God and die.”
    Job 2:9
    His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”

    You’re right! I was going pretty much by memory and she’s mentioned a couple of times, the verse you mention, and again in chapter 31 (during one of the discourses).
    But she’s really a minor character (not even given a name), and seen as an antagonist. Doesn’t get a mention in the happy ending (the farm animals still get top billing). The attitude seems to be that her worth isn’t very much.

  53. @ Dee:
    That doesn’t surprise me. The church demands too much of the people who work for it. If they ever allow priest to marry, I’m thinking their gocations problem will decrease exponentially.

  54. @ Jack:
    If we accept it as a literary composition and not as some kind of history, it makes more sense. Job mis the protagonist, and the friends are mouthpieces, really.

    Leviathan and the other fantastic animal – am blamking on its name – get way more lines than Job’s wife, too.

  55. @ Zla’od:
    You can make that distiction, but there are lots of people who prey on teenagers. I mesn, truly prey on them. And that is, imo, no less evil than molesting prepubescent children. Kids might (occasionally) feel like they’re getting a “good” kind of attention from these peoplr, but deep down, most realize that something is very off. The individuals who prey on teenagers are just as accomplished at grooming their victims as those who go after young children, and are often likeable, even having much personal charisma, just as Dee said sbove.

    My HS was very dangerous territory, for boys and girls alike, in this regard, and nobody did anything about it. They closed ranks around the predators.

    Keep in mind that many girls hit puberty by age 10 or so, and…

  56. @ Zla’od:
    I kind of feel like you’re minimizing the whole issue of adults preying on adolescents, and am very uncomfortable with your attempts at writing off the whole scenario. It’s one thing for a 19 y.o. to be attracted to a 16 or 17 y.o., quite another for suuposedly mature adults to consistently go after teens. It is, imo, disturbed behavior (certainly disturbing), even though it has been a social norm at various times, and in many places. That doesn’t make it right.

  57. john mccormack wrote:

    Again, you are distorting the truth.

    Well first I’m not clear how you think I’m distorting the truth. Do you think the number from the general population is higher or lower? I don’t recall the source, it came from reading months ago but at the time I think I found similar numbers from different places. I can go dig them out but you have similar capability and I would welcome your research. Your protest does recall the old joke that 63.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

    I was reacting to the 6% number reported by Janey. That it was reported in error and is 16% only strengthens the point. Unless you believe 16% of the general population are pedophiles then this number represents yet another category of serious personality disorders that is dramatically over represented within the clergy. Similarly the Presbyterian Church in Canada did a study that discovered as many as a quarter of their clergy may exhibit narcissist personality disorder.
    http://www.academia.edu/8945796/CLERGY_AND_NARCISSISM_IN_THE_PRESBYTERIAN_CHURCH_IN_CANADA

    There are two ways of dealing with these issues, one is to setup systems to filter out bad actors. The other is to step back and question the system, why are the worst elements attracted? I believe pastors and clergy have way too much trust, way too much authority, and way too little accountability. Simply because pastors have been elevated above us makes it extremely difficult to question them, let alone stop such appalling behavior. I used to advocate for the first solution, tweaking the system which I did for 30-40 years. I’m now worn out and looking at alternatives.

  58. The Presbyterian Church in Canada Study (which I conducted) build on Studies in the Netherlands which found 22% of clergy there with Narcissistic Personality Disorder(NPD). And “Yes” there are some similarities in that many pedophiles would suffer from NPD. In working with First Nations Communities and the after effects of the “Indian Residential School” particularly sexual abuse, it appears that the two are often related conditions.

  59. Piero wrote:

    That’s why no Roman Catholic who is consistent with their church’s official teaching can be sure of their salvation.

    I disagree with you on this matter. I have met Catholics who are Christians. They have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior just like some who identify as evangelicals.

  60. Bill M wrote:

    The other is to step back and question the system, why are the worst elements attracted? I believe pastors and clergy have way too much trust, way too much authority, and way too little accountability.

    Bingo.

  61. R. Glenn Ball wrote:

    he after effects of the “Indian Residential School” particularly sexual abuse,

    I worked on the Navajo Reservation for two years as a nurse. I know a number of families whose children were in such schools. Are these the ones to which you are referring? I would like to read more on the subject. Do you have any suggestions?

    Thank you for your informative comment.

  62. R. Glenn Ball wrote:

    The Presbyterian Church in Canada Study (which I conducted)

    I continue to be impressed by who passes by here. Someone forwarded a link to your study shortly after it was posted so I will take the opportunity now to thank you for your work. I do wonder how you are received in some settings.

  63. Thanks for calling attention to this movie. I think it is a must see for your readers. I went and took others in order to show support to producers who took the risk to make this movie about a less than block buster topic. I was pretty familiar with the story but the movie was still impressive and even had a few unexpected twists.

    For TWW readers going I will say that Liev Schreiber did not have as prominent of a role here as I had hoped for. His titular show, Ray Donovan, while not fit for many (it’s a Showtime production with sex, violence and bad language), takes an unflinching look at the Boston cleric abuse, the ruination of the victims and their families and the Boston Globe’s role in exposing the Catholic Church. Surprisingly, in Spotlight, the extremely talented Schreiber plays only a minor role.

    Please support this film if you can. It is on limited release so it won’t likely be in theaters for too long. Publicizing abuse is one of the only weapons we the people have of combating its proliferation through awareness and education. This movie reminded me of the Deebs in that Spotlight is a tiny team that made a huge impact because they cared and persisted.

    No spoilers here but I will say at the end of the film something appears on the screen and we could hear audible gasps throughout the theater followed by a lot of sniffling. Saying you will enjoy the film would be like saying you will “enjoy” Schindler’s List. But we did appreciate the film profoundly.

  64. @ dee:
    And many good xtians who are psrt of the RCC would never use evangelical conversionist vocabulary to describe their faith, yet they are very much part of the body of Christ.

  65. @ R. Glenn Ball:
    Not surprising. As I’m sure you know, we have our own very dark history regarding these same kinds of schools. But we have not faced it doen on a national level, and likely never will.

  66. Piero: That’s why no Roman Catholic who is consistent with their church’s official teaching can be sure of their salvation.

    Dee: I disagree with you on this matter. I have met Catholics who are Christians. They have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior just like some who identify as evangelicals.

    Dee,

    With respect, your comments really add nothing new to the issues I raised.

    My contention is that a Roman Catholic who is consistent with their church’s official teaching cannot be certain of their salvation.

    The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is ultimately dependent on one’s conduct and merit. The Current Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994 – Latin)(CCC) at Parag. 1036 states …” we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly, so that… we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast…”. (CCC) Parag. 2036 states “We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved”.

    The doctrine of assurance is contrary to Catholic teaching. In fact, it was specifically rejected by the Council of Trent: “If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.” (Sixth session, Canon XVI).

    For Catholics, the destination of a person after death is determined at the point of death. (CCC Parag. 1022 ) “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.“

    This is a matter of vital significance to hundreds of millions of precious Roman Catholic people today who need to know the Christ of the Bible and the assurance that only he can give. They need to trust in the Bible alone, and be saved by God’s grace alone and through faith alone in the finished sacrifice of Jesus.

    The Apostle John says: “ And the witness is this , that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his son. He who has the son has life; he who does not have the son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.“ 1 John 5:11-13

    Cheers
    Piero

  67. @ dee:

    Indian residential Schools were run in Canada by the government and some churches. We have just finished our Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to hear the testimony of residential School survivors. and yes there was a lot of abuse both cultural and sexual. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has a lot available on line, and you should be able to access and/ or order some of the reports.

  68. Zla’od wrote:

    there is an awkward but psychologically crucial difference between sexual attraction to children per se, vs. post-pubescent teenagers. The latter is psychologically quite normal, though such desires still need to be suppressed through age-of-consent laws, self-control, threats from relatives, and so forth.

    I don’t agree, at least with how you worded it. Yes, when kids are developing, or recently developed, adulthood starts its long reveal, and it is beautiful. But teens are also immature and awkward, unpracticed and ignorant. When healthy, they socialize within their own age group and tend to view adults as slightly ridiculous.

    If an adult finds him/herself seriously sexually attracted (something more than a passing physical reaction) to a kid under say, under 17, they need to walk away and take a good look at themselves.

    It is not psychologically normal to separate the physicality of sex from the rest of the desired person so far that one thinks it fine to have sex with half-formed adults, except for those pesky laws and cranky relatives.

    I’m fairly certain you didn’t mean what I’m arguing against, but I want to be clear here because it is constantly questioned by hebephiles and immature power-hungry adults. And many of us tolerate their views because yes, teens are lovely in their new beginnings.

  69. Piero wrote:

    They need to trust in the Bible alone

    I disagree. My trust is by no means in the bible, much less it alone. It is in Jesus Christ.

  70. Bridget wrote:

    Piero wrote:
    They need to trust in the Bible alone
    I disagree. My trust is by no means in the bible, much less it alone. It is in Jesus Christ.

    i.e. “YOU have a RELIGION (sneer). I have a RELATIONSHIP(TM). (I Thank Thee, LOORD, that I am nothing like those filthy Romish Papists…)”

  71. LT wrote:

    Saying you will enjoy the film would be like saying you will “enjoy” Schindler’s List.

    Or Mel Gibson’s “Passion”…

  72. Piero,

    It isn’t just consistent RCs who cannot be certain of salvation. A whole lot of reformed protestants haven’t been either. When you come from a theological tradition with an emphasis on God’s absolute sovereignty, divine election before creation itself, and predestination (both ways), you can read any of the promises in the Bible and still be left mired in uncertainty over whether that is something *for you* as an individual. Mix in the neverending reformed debates about sanctification, and you’re left wondering whether attempts at obedience are even worth it, or whether you’re probably damned and should just eat, drink, and be merry while you still can.

    Trust me, once a person has been steeped in 5 point Calvinism for enough years, it’s very difficult to read Scripture in a different way. The good news of the gospel is more like the uncertain news of a potential gospel.

  73. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    i.e. “YOU have a RELIGION (sneer). I have a RELATIONSHIP(TM). (I Thank Thee, LOORD, that I am nothing like those filthy Romish Papists…)”

    A standard Calvary Chapel meme to the ‘unsaved’. The only ‘relationship’ you can have with Jesus is the one they teach. All others are destined for the lake of fire.
    (Potter included)

  74. @ Muff Potter:

    Even though I hold fast to the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed and especially its supernatural components, in some circles that’s still not good enough.

  75. NJ wrote:

    It isn’t just consistent RCs who cannot be certain of salvation. A whole lot of reformed protestants haven’t been either.

    That is true. There are extreme Calvinists who don’t think it’s possible for even the “elect” to know if they are the elect.

    I’ve read that some of them think that a person can really think he is the elect but really not be and go to Hell in the afterlife.

    There are also some Protestants who think you have to work to keep your salvation.

    In some circles, this is known as Conditional Security. They detest the teaching of OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) and Eternal Security.

    I also note how strange I find to see Protestants that this blog often discusses who are big into church authority, discipline, and they make their church preacher into a Pope figure.

    What was the point in Protesting the Roman Catholic Church in the first place, if you only go on to sort of adopt some of its views, or practices, or what not? It makes no sense to me.

  76. The original reporting behind the Spotlight movie can be read here, if anyone is interested:

    Church allowed abuse by priest for years
    http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/special-reports/2002/01/06/church-allowed-abuse-priest-for-years/cSHfGkTIrAT25qKGvBuDNM/story.html

    I think they put their reporting of that story into a book, too. I also read some other coverage of this story the other day.

    The church not only shuffled around abusive priests within the U.S.A., but it appears to have been a common practice to do so in other nations, too.

    American media at the time were pressured not to report on the abuse, and even the police of decades past were asked to keep quiet about it.

    That to me was one of the most alarming and odd things about the story, that so many people were complicit in helping the church cover up all this abuse, when they should be exposing it and protecting children.

  77. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    i.e. “YOU have a RELIGION (sneer). I have a RELATIONSHIP(TM). (I Thank Thee, LOORD, that I am nothing like those filthy Romish Papists…)”

    A standard Calvary Chapel meme to the ‘unsaved’. The only ‘relationship’ you can have with Jesus is the one they teach. All others are destined for the lake of fire.
    (Potter included)

    And a meme I had used on me way too often during my years in-country.

    The Gospel According to Jack Chick and Hal Lindsay begets these type of monsters.

  78. @ Muff Potter:
    Well, you know what Groucho Marx said about any club that would accept him as a member…

    You fit right in with the *other* “club,” to whicj i certainly belong. 😉

  79. God knows those who are his. As for you and I, it is not so easy to define. In fact, it defies any kind of neat, clear delineation.

    Every church contains wheat and tares. Every single one. Regardless of the fine points of doctrine they teach. And I think it would surprise people just how many tares there are. There are many motivations for attending church.

    Correct Biblical teaching and doctrine seems to be more for a Christian’s growth in understanding after one has come to know Jesus. Some forms of teaching bring the Christian into bondage and others reveal the grace and freedom that are our birthright in Christ. And this seems to be the continual struggle in the Christian life.

    My husband was raised Catholic. When I first came to know Jesus, I went to Catholic church with him. I bought a Catholic Bible and read it from cover to cover. Eventually, after he became a believer, too, we decided to find a church that was focused on teaching the Bible. And that was the beginning of a looong and often painful learning experience.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all!

  80. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    IOW: People who do nothing in the face of evil are not “good men” (or women).

    Thanks for this. It was only this week that I had occasion to make that observation to a young Christian woman who was allowing evil to continue by ignoring it. I said, OK, then do you want to take responsibility for the outcome of your failure to pursue good rather than ignore evil? It may have made a difference, at least for a time. I cannot get inside the minds of people who can ignore little children being harmed. What could be more important than protecting them?

  81. @ Daisy:
    A lot of the abuse was allowed to continue due to the political union of the CC and the courts, police, political leaders. To be catholic in Boston was to predominantly Irish and vote democrat. Which spilled over into political appointments in state jobs, the courts, police, etc. Cardinal Law was never prosecuted or brought to justice, has a high ranking position in the security of the Vatican. Many CChurches and schools were closed, property sold , in and around Boston, in large part to pay for all the legal expenses, compensations rightly awarded to the victims. As in other cities, including the small town I live in in CT, church membership decreased sharply after a local priest was found to have molested as many as 15 young men at the local parish. One man killed himself, after the accusations came to light. God help us to wake up and get the predators/abusers out of leadership of any church, para church organization.

  82. Gram3 wrote:

    I cannot get inside the minds of people who can ignore little children being harmed. What could be more important than protecting them?

    NOTHING.

  83. Daisy wrote:

    The original reporting behind the Spotlight movie can be read here, if anyone is interested:
    Church allowed abuse by priest for years
    http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/special-reports/2002/01/06/church-allowed-abuse-priest-for-years/cSHfGkTIrAT25qKGvBuDNM/story.html

    That to me was one of the most alarming and odd things about the story, that so many people were complicit in helping the church cover up all this abuse, when they should be exposing it and protecting children.

    One of the better lines from the movie is when Stanley Tucci explains to Spotlight reporter Mark Ruffalo that “if it takes a village to raise a child, it also takes a village to abuse a child.”

  84. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    IOW: People who do nothing in the face of evil are not “good men” (or women).

    No matter how many Honorary Doctorates they are awarded on the Church Conference Circuit?

  85. Zla’od wrote:

    As long as we’re reminding everybody of these distinctions, there is an awkward but psychologically crucial difference between sexual attraction to children per se, vs. post-pubescent teenagers. The latter is psychologically quite normal, though such desires still need to be suppressed through age-of-consent laws, self-control, threats from relatives, and so forth.

    Pedophilia refers to sexual attraction to PRE-PUBESCENT children.

    Sexual attraction to post-pubescent teens (i.e. legally-underage “Jail Bait”) is EHEBEPHILIA.

    And way up this thread there was a link to a study comparing Pedophiles to Ehebephiles on the subject of same-sex molestation. It claimed the following:

    Same-sex Ehebephiles normally self-identified as Gay, and sexual arousal trigger tests seemed to bear this out. They seemed to be a same-sex version as “going after jail bait” a la Polishing-the-Shaft Schaap and (without contact) Got Hard, and I have observed this in Furry Fandom (which locally is very gay-heavy). In both Gay and Straight porn, the Ideal Body seems to be a teenager or extremely young adult; the older the guy, the younger the Ideal in comparison.

    However…

    Same-sex Pedophiles were most likely to self-identify as Straight; again sexual arousal trigger testing seemed to confirm this. Despite their same-sex molestation, male pedophiles showed every sign of being otherwise Straight. The study theorized that what otherwise-straight pedos key on in little kids is the lack of masculine characteristics; male secondary sex characteristics — beards, deepening voice, robust builds, heavy body hair — don’t develop until puberty and pre-pubescent children share the lack of masculine secondary characteristics with females. Compared to adults, male children exhibit feminine characteristics — no facial hair, fine body hair, high-pitched voices.

    And there was one unique exception, confirmed in recent scandals on local drive-time talk radio: Opposite-sex ehebephilia between a female young adult teacher and teenage male student. The common reaction to this among the teens and some adults is best expressed by Beavis & Butthead: “HEY BEAVIS! HE SCOOORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!”

  86. Here’s an commentary on Pedo-Priest Scandals in Ireland from over at Internet Monk around 2 1/2 years ago. Mae wrote:

    A lot of the abuse was allowed to continue due to the political union of the CC and the courts, police, political leaders. To be Catholic in Boston was to predominantly Irish and vote Democrat. Which spilled over into political appointments in state jobs, the courts, police, etc.

    So One Hand was Washing the Other.

    I would like to point out that in Boston (and many other East Coast port cities), Irish Catholics had a lock on police jobs for a long long time. (Mostly because police work was beneath the dignity of Real Americans(TM) in the late 19th Century. Same with Italian Catholics and the fire department.)

    Here’s a commentary from Internet Monk about 2 1/2 years ago on a similar situation (and pedo priest scandal) in the Church in Ireland itself:
    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/sex-and-power-an-irish-perspective-on-the-abuse-scandal-in-the-catholic-church

  87. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Yes HUG, it’s true that the Irish Cops of 19th century, early 20th century, were mostly the only Americans applying for the jobs. The House/Senate in MA.has been held by a democrat majority ( heavily Irish in 20th century, think Bulger family) for 100 years.

  88. Mae wrote:

    Yes HUG, it’s true that the Irish Cops of 19th century, early 20th century, were mostly the only Americans applying for the jobs. The House/Senate in MA.has been held by a democrat majority ( heavily Irish in 20th century, think Bulger family) for 100 years.

    Jaysus, Meery, and Joosef!

  89. john mccormack wrote:

    @ Bill M:

    Again, you are distorting the truth. Where did you get the “4 or 5%” number? Was that an estimate, i.e. someone’s made up number?

    The Catholic 6% number that you reference was based on actual cases that Richard Sipe saw, but as the movie makes clear, in the Catholic church in Boston, it was 249 out of 1500, or 16% pedo-priests, and that number is now up to 271/1500.

    Bill M. is most certainly not distorting the truth. No one can be sure of the actual percentage of pedophiles in the general population because so many cases go unreported and people in even anonymous surveys of sexual behavior are reluctant to admit to being attracted to prepubescent children. However, there are some educated estimates. The four percent figure comes from Dr. John Bradford, a psychiatrist at the University if Ottawa who has been studying pedophilia for thirty-five years.

  90. __

      A reasonable person will make a distinction between all persons of a certain religious faith and those who abuse their religious faith in order to feed their lusts. An extremely biased opinion will treat an entire religious faith as scapegoats for those among them that are truly dangerous.

  91. NJ wrote:

    Trust me, once a person has been steeped in 5 point Calvinism for enough years, it’s very difficult to read Scripture in a different way. The good news of the gospel is more like the uncertain news of a potential gospel.

    This is even true for one who’s simply been exposed to it and had it revealed for what it was. It adds such deep darkness and hopelessness.

  92. Daisy wrote:

    1. Celibacy does not cause someone to become a pedophile.

    2. The evangelical church has a terrible problem with pedophilia and our pastors can get married.

    Thank you. I’m a celibate adult and have zero desire to touch children sexually. I am zero, zippo attracted to children.

    I’ve read studies that a larger percentage of child molesters are married men – there are more married ones than single ones.

    I’ve read that information in enough places to believe that it is true. (If you think about it for a second, you can see why: if people believe that only celibates are pedophiles, marriage is a good place to hide).

  93. Lydia wrote:

    I don’t trust someone else’s long con predatory behavior “as a Christian” and then instant repentance. There is more safety for the innocents when we seek justice.

    Amen.

  94. siteseer wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    My other favorite they repeat a lot:
    “But we’re all sinners!”

    This goes a little off subject, but I have a question as to whether someone without a conscience is even capable of repentance. My friends counter with “but God can do anything! God can change anyone’s heart!” but honestly I have doubts.

    Conscience is like language, it’s developed at a certain crucial stage early in life. If it doesn’t get developed then, I don’t think it ever can.

    So… am I a heretic for feeling some people are beyond God’s grace? Or is the typical Christian hopelessly naive?

    I believe that anyone COULD repent, but that there are people who would prefer their sin rather than admit they are sinners. We call these folks “sociopaths”, or in extreme cases, “psychopaths”. All these folk know that what they do is evil & wrong, but they don’t care, because they enjoy it.
    Some are serial killers. Some are serial rapists. And some of them are pedophiles. These are the people who are the really scary ones.
    However, there are folks who believe their lies. (Ted Bundy pulling the wool over James Dobson’s eyes comes vividly to mind). These people are, whether they know it or not, accomplices to the evil that the criminals do….

  95. numo wrote:

    @ dee:
    And many good xtians who are psrt of the RCC would never use evangelical conversionist vocabulary to describe their faith, yet they are very much part of the body of Christ.

    A dear & trusted frind of mine, who was a Catholic, passed away in 2010. After his death, I was speaking of him in a group of Protestant Christians, one of whom snapped that “he was no Christian, he was Catholic!” To which I replied: “If that man isn’t in Heaven right now, there is no hope for any of us standing here”. That is, you see, simply the truth. Yet he would naver have used evangelical language. But he shone like a bright light of faith in Christ.

  96. Bridget wrote:

    Piero wrote:

    They need to trust in the Bible alone

    I disagree. My trust is by no means in the bible, much less it alone. It is in Jesus Christ.

    Amen.

  97. siteseer wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    I cannot get inside the minds of people who can ignore little children being harmed. What could be more important than protecting them?

    NOTHING.

    Again, amen.

  98. zooey111 wrote:

    I believe that anyone COULD repent, but that there are people who would prefer their sin rather than admit they are sinners. We call these folks “sociopaths”, or in extreme cases, “psychopaths”. All these folk know that what they do is evil & wrong, but they don’t care, because they enjoy it.
    Some are serial killers. Some are serial rapists…

    Some are CELEBRITIES, some are CEOs…
    And some are PASTORS(TM).

  99. zooey111 wrote:

    numo wrote:
    @ dee:
    And many good xtians who are psrt of the RCC would never use evangelical conversionist vocabulary to describe their faith, yet they are very much part of the body of Christ.
    A dear & trusted frind of mine, who was a Catholic, passed away in 2010. After his death, I was speaking of him in a group of Protestant Christians, one of whom snapped that “he was no Christian, he was Catholic!” To which I replied: “If that man isn’t in Heaven right now, there is no hope for any of us standing here”. That is, you see, simply the truth. Yet he would naver have used evangelical language. But he shone like a bright light of faith in Christ.

    So agree. In my circle of friends/relatives, I know Catholics/Protestants, who know Christ and other Catholic/ Protestants who do not.

  100. Piero wrote:

    no Roman Catholic who is consistent with their church’s official teaching can be sure of their salvation

    No five point calvinist who is consistent with calvinist theology can be sure of their salvation. Nor for that matter can any number of protestant groups who believe that actual apostasy is possible. Not to forget that if what Jesus said about the judgment is correct, then quite a few folks will be sorely surprised to hear ‘I never knew you’.

    I know that I know that I know, which you did not exactly say of course, is nonsense. It does not depend on what we know or whether we think we know Jesus, but rather on whether He knows us. The better statement would be ‘I take comfort in the emotional relief that comes from thinking that what I know is actual reality merely because I think that I know it; because of course I am immune to deception, unlike the rest of humanity.’

  101. zooey111 wrote:

    I believe that anyone COULD repent, but that there are people who would prefer their sin rather than admit they are sinners. We call these folks “sociopaths”, or in extreme cases, “psychopaths”. All these folk know that what they do is evil & wrong, but they don’t care, because they enjoy it.

    See, this is where I am unsure. I got close to this issue after I fostered a boy who was a sociopath, I learned a lot about how they think and do not think… It is pure insanity, up close and personal.

    If someone has no conscience, how do they turn to God? How do they repent? God would have to create in them a conscience, which would be as miraculous as creating a missing limb.

    I think what people don’t realize is that a person with no conscience cannot “return” to something they never had. It’s missing, it’s non-existent.

    I know it’s a side-issue but I wish the average Christian had more understanding of what they are up against. Stop and think about it a minute, a person who can rape children is a person without conscience. To expect them to repent… to be willing to accept a story of repentance, it’s so unrealistic. It’s asking to be offended against over and over.

  102. @ Deb:
    Saw the film. Two questions.
    1. So, if Mass (Spotlight), Minn (Jeff Anderson & Assoc.) and New Mex (wayward priests) is the Bermuda Triangle of the Catholic Church, where is the same for Evangelicals?
    2. And who are the truth tellers, the whistle blowers, the ethicists who are not just standing by?

  103. @ siteseer:

    Great comment. Yes a person who can molest a child has no conscience but at the same time, project themselves as a great Christian. The long con. But then when caught can plead repentance and everyone at church falls for it. After all, the pastor believes it. And, we are all sinners, right, so who are we to judge.

    It has become a dangerous sick game using Jesus as cover. The con person may not have what we call a conscience but they do have the ability NOT to act on their desires. But we rarely hold them accountable. Instead they are held up as paragons of repentance.

  104. Lydia wrote:

    It has become a dangerous sick game using Jesus as cover.

    Gives new meaning to the words of Jesus: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    (Matt 7:21)

  105. dee wrote:

    Piero wrote:
    That’s why no Roman Catholic who is consistent with their church’s official teaching can be sure of their salvation.
    I disagree with you on this matter. I have met Catholics who are Christians. They have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior just like some who identify as evangelicals.

    As a Catholic, I think about the 21 martyrs of the Coptic Church who refused to deny Christ and were beheaded by ISIS . . .
    The Coptic martyrs come from a faith that professes Christ with these words prior to the reading of the Holy Gospel in their liturgical worship in community:

    “. . . You are the life of us all, the salvation of us all, the hope of us all, the healing of us all, and the resurrection of us all.”

    At the moment of their death when they called on Jesus for help, it was not their first acknowledgement of Christ as Lord.

    There are many who do not see these men as ‘Christians’, I know, but their blood was shed as a witness to Christ. That is what we know to be true that they believed in the prayers of their faith that honored Our Lord as Savior. And they, as His blood witnesses, belong to the WHOLE Body of Christ, by the shedding of their blood as martyrs. Beside their witness of great faith, I think our words of theological disagreement fade and our divisions lose their power to completely separate us from one another ‘in Christ’.

  106. Lydia wrote:

    It has become a dangerous sick game using Jesus as cover. The con person may not have what we call a conscience but they do have the ability NOT to act on their desires. But we rarely hold them accountable. Instead they are held up as paragons of repentance.

    Makes you want to be a Sociopath and Con Artist.
    i.e. a WINNER.

  107. Christiane wrote:

    There are many who do not see these men as ‘Christians’, I know, but their blood was shed as a witness to Christ.

    THAT was good enough for the early Church.

    Too bad it’s not good enough for Jack Chick and his Disciples…

  108. siteseer wrote:

    I know it’s a side-issue but I wish the average Christian had more understanding of what they are up against. Stop and think about it a minute, a person who can rape children is a person without conscience. To expect them to repent… to be willing to accept a story of repentance, it’s so unrealistic. It’s asking to be offended against over and over.

    I have seen my probable NPD and possible Sociopath younger brother turn the Repentance(TM) and Genuine Sorrow(TM) on and off like a light switch.
    CLICK ON!
    CLICK OFF!
    CLICK ON!
    CLICK OFF!
    I fully expect him to lie his way out of the Last Judgment.

  109. I just finished reading a book c1992 Doubleday pub/Lead Us Not Into Temptation/Jason Berry (a Catholic journalist who was pulled into this story in the 80’s in his state of Louisiana. I highly recommend it. There were also some other books around that time such as “Goodbye Good Men”(I don’t recall the author) recommended interestingly enough by a news show on EWTN. The C. Church was not only guilty of transferring these priests to keep them from experiencing consequences, of covering up the criminals and their crimes, but to inexcusable acts of persecuting the victims and their families.. telling lies about them, subjecting them to drawn out court proceedings to wear them down and break them financially, ruining their reputations and the children who had been abused.. children who went on to commit suicide, etc etc.

    How’s that for a run on sentence ?… sorry about that

  110. @ R. Glenn Ball:
    During WWII and after, there were many orphaned and children who had been placed in Catholic facilities in the British Isles who were sent to Australia to be worked like slaves and were sexually abused by those Australian Catholic schools. Parents who returned to the homes in the British isles to get their child/children were told that they had died and not that they had been sent to Australia.

  111. @ Sopwith:
    And………….do you really think that those who abuse children or those who cover up for the ones who do will have any problem with lying? In other, words, any questions that are put to them do not necessarily result in a truthful answer.