Jesus Doesn’t Want Steven Furtick to Tell Anyone How Much He Makes.

 “Shun, as you would the plague, a cleric who from being poor has become wealthy, or who, from being nobody has become a celebrity.” —Jerome link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=134228&picture=colorful-donuts-2
Donuts

Today, the Deebs went to see the movie Spotlight. Bad news. The posted information was for next week's showings. We were about 25 minutes from home and decided we should do something together. Dee offered to introduce Deb to the number 1 ranked donut shop in the country- Monuts which is in Durham. (See the link and weep.) So we spent 11/2 hours sharing stories, donuts, lavender ice tea and hot spiced cider with whipped cream. It was a much needed break for the two of us. The rest of the day was the usual rat race.

Private versus public entities.

A private company can keep the salary of the owners secret. They run the show and don't really care about what you think about how much money anyone thinks they should make. A publicly traded entity, on the other hand, is at the mercy of its shareholders who actually get to express their concerns at shareholder meetings. These shareholders have invested their hard earned cash into the company and are concerned about how much is going to the CEOs, etc. and how much the shareholders are receiving in dividends. They expect to see their stocks gain value. If they don't, bye, bye CEO.

The church should be viewed as a congregationally held entity.

I contend that the church is essentially a company of Christian people formed around a central belief system as outlined in their statement of beliefs. The one and only CEO is Jesus Christ, not the pastor. Just about every church within the evangelical world is dependent on their members to contribute money in order to pay of the salaries of leaders and fund their ministries.  How many of our readers, like myself, have sat through interminable, annual sermons about giving *generously* to the local church? 

The church expects all members to tithe or contribute cash, stocks, etc. However, few church leaders are willing to open their compensation to the little guy who is giving his/her time, heart and money. In their supposed reports to congregations, they often report salaries and benefits as a single total figure. No one outside the inner circle can figure out who gets what.

If  the church leadership wishes me to contribute to their salary and benefits, then I have a right to know exactly what those entail. Or, is this one more way to tell me that I am far less equal than the church leaders and I have no right to know how my money is being used. My husband and I give generous contributions to organizations. It is God's money and we wish to contribute it wisely. I do not believe contributing money to a church leader who makes an exorbitant salary is wise.

Steven Furtick refuses to say how much money he makes from the church contributions.

In the Charlotte Observer, an article covers an interview Furtick gave to WCBN. Elevation Church pastor: Keeping mum about personal finances fair to family, in line with Jesus’ teaching

Those who attend the church contribute about $500,000 to Elevation every weekend, but money matters – including Furtick’s salary – are still decided by a board of out-of-town pastors rather than locals active in the church. Unlike most churches, where lay leaders from the congregation help govern and make decisions, Furtick’s flock does not set or even know how much the pastor is paid.

The bottom line: Furtick ain't talking.

But he said he planned to stay mum about his personal finances. “To go on record and say, ‘Here’s how much money we’ve given away and here’s what we do with our finances’ – to me, that would be the most arrogant thing that I could do and it would rob me of the blessing of doing what Jesus said, which is, ‘When you give, you don’t get up and tell everybody how much you’ve given.’ … (And) I wouldn’t do that to my wife and my kids.”

Furtick preaches most weekends. But he rarely speaks with reporters. 

Raw Story: Megamansion-building megachurch pastor says revealing his salary would violate Christ’s teachings

I know that we have to have integrity and we have to be generous, and I know the extent of which that is true for me and Holly,” Furtick said, referring to his wife of 13 years. “So to go on record and say here’s how much money we’ve given and here’s what we do with our finances, to me, that would be the most arrogant thing I could do and it would rob me of the blessings of what Jesus said, which is that when you give, you don’t get up and tell everyone how much you’ve given.

The audit given to his congregation is a smokescreen since it does not directly report Furtick's salary.

Do not trust any church which says they have ab outside audit of their finances. Auditors only make sure the money is properly recorded and disbursed. It makes no judgment on the amount of salaries and benefits. In other words, Furtick could be making $1,000,000 a year and the auditors could still certify the report.

The pastor said during a sermon that the church provides congregants to audited financial statements about the church, but those aren’t made public.

Elevation has about 20,000 folks attending but Furtick wants a whole lot more.

Can you imagine if Furtick is compensated by how many people come to his church? 

Asked if he ever imagined that Elevation, founded in February 2006, would grow so big so fast, Furtick said, “I imagined that we would have influence. I dreamed big. … I certainly didn’t think, in 10 years, we would be reaching 20,000 people every week.”

In a part of the interview that did not air, but is on the TV station’s website, Furtick appears to still be dreaming big. “I look forward to the day when 100,000 people are worshipping at our church,” he said.

How much money does Furtick make?

We wrote an Furtick's compensation committee. Elevation Church: Bamboozled by Steven Furtick’s Ridiculous Compensation Committee?Did you know that Furtick lives in the largest home (16,000 sq feet) under one roof in North Carolina? Here is another post on that matter. The answer is: he makes a boat load and he won't tell you how much that is. 

Yet, Furtick wants you to tithe your money to his church.

As Christians, God has called us to tithe back to the local church. It’s a scriptural, foundational principle found throughout the Bible. So why are giving and generosity such uncomfortable subjects for many of us to hear sermons about?

Thoughts to discuss.

1. If you are contributing money to the church, you have a right to know how much pastors and leaders are making off your contributions.

The pastors is a member of the congregation, not its CEO. If you help pay his salary, you have a right to know how much it is. If you are to sacrifice, so should he. If your church wishes to discipline you, you should get a chance to see if any pastor of church leader should be questioned about his compensation package. Why does discomfort only go one way-that is to you, the tithe machine?

2. If you do not contribute money to a church, then you should find out if you have the right to learn his salary if you do so.

One of the comments that Furtick made and quoted by Raw Story was:

Furtick told WCCB’s Morgan Fogarty that he would never release those records just to satisfy the media.

Here is a piece of advice to wealthy pastors. If you are not willing to let you light shine before men, then give it up. Can you imagine what sort of a witness Furtick is to the media with his arrogant and in your face wealthy lifestyle? Furtick deserves to be critiqued by the world if he claims to be a representative of Jesus Christ and jumps up and down to be recognized by the public. As an aside, Furtick and those who support his luxurious lifestyle are viewed as suspect by those who do not attend Elevation. Their light is not exactly shining. 

3. Pastors should be paid a comparable salary to the median salary of the particular congregation served. 

Recently, we have heard that the *fair*salary is one that compensates pastors at the median of salaries of pastors at comparably sized congregations. That means a pastor in rural Idaho could be paid the same as a pastor in a comparably sized congregation in Dallas and New York City. I propose that pastors should be paid the median salary of those in the congregation. The pastor in Idaho is one with that particular congregation; not one with the pastor in New York City. This would help a pastor to better identify with the members of that congregation.

4. Do not judge a pastor who lives in a nice home or takes nice vacations without first exploring his living situation.

  • One pastor that I know bought a 3,000 square foot house in an area that would perceive this house to be larger than the the average home of 2000 sq ft. However, his wife had received an inheritance and they decided to invest in that home in which they still live, 25 years later. He actually explained that to the members of his congregation so they would understand. 
  • Another pastor is married to a gastroenterologist and her salary supports a higher lifestyle.
  • Another pastor moved to Texas from California. They had lived in their California home for three decades and made a great deal of money at the sale. The real estate is quite cheap in the area of Texas in which they settled.

5. Do not give any money to a pastor who is building huge houses, flying private jets, and spending church work time writing books and speaking at conferences which also pay him large fees.

6. If you like your church but disagree with your pastor's lifestyle, give money directly to various charities and missionaries that are supported by your church.

7. If you ask the pastors, elders, etc to tell you the salary of the pastor and they respond poorly to your request or ask why you are asking or causing trouble, leave that church. You and your money are not respected. You are simply a tithing machine.

8. If a pastor will not tell you how much he makes, don't tell him how much you will give.

You know those annual pledge cards? Don't fill them out.

Stop giving to any church which is not transparent about salaries and benefits.

It is the opinion of TWW that it is time to stop giving to any local church which expects people to sacrificially give but will not be transparent about  their salaries and benefits.

Two years ago we wrote Steven Furtick Proves That It Is Time to Stop Giving to the Local Church. We have not changed our minds in those two years.

Stop giving if the church hires outside "well to do" pastors to be on a compensation committee in which the proceedings are kept secret. Also, ask if any of those people on the committee are ever given perks like paid speaking engagements, etc.

(Furtick's undisclosed salary) which is set not by a group of lay members of the church, but by a board of five out-of-town pastors. Furtick is also on the board, but doesn’t vote on his salary, Corbett said. These out-of-town board members are friends and mentors to Furtick and, like him, lead growing megachurches. They include Perry Noble of NewSpring Church in Anderson, S.C., and Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist in Plano, Texas.

Can you really trust other mega church pastors, who all live well, to actually police their buddy's income? Take a look their names and try to find out how well they live. I bet that they keep their income a big, fat secret, as well. Also, besides being on a committee, see if they ask each other to speak at each other's conferences and are paid for doing so. If so, could you see how can I get involved in this cash cow? I have heard of another church which has a retention fund in order to keep the pastor when he starts threatening to go elsewhere. Such Godly behavior demands rewards.

Please read the entire post. Let''s end with this.

Does the Bible say you must give to the local church?

All authoritarian pastors tell us that we must give to support their vision and enterprise. Many of them also demand a tithe which they define as 10% gross. But, if you look carefully at Scripture, this is not said anywhere in the New Testament. And the actual percentage of the tithe in the Old Testament was greater than 10% but that is a subject for another day.

I would urge all of you to stop giving to rich churches and pastors or abusive churches and pastors. Do you think they even give a hoot about your sacrifice? Instead, look around you and find Christian ministries that are housed in old buildings, sacrificially serving the poor, the let down, the homeless, and the disenfranchised.

How about an African American church that helps poor kids after school or feeds people under the bridge? How about rescue missions that reach out to the unloved? There are ministries that look after persecuted people groups or victims of human trafficking. I bet each of you know quite a few. I know such ministries would be thrilled with your donation and you might feel like your have done something worthwhile and eternal. Your money would actually do more good with these groups than the purchase of one more Bose speaker for Sunday morning. Think about it as you view the video from last evening. I will post tonights follow-up after it appears.

Comments

Jesus Doesn’t Want Steven Furtick to Tell Anyone How Much He Makes. — 222 Comments


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    I hope my friends in Charlotte read and share this article.


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    First?


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    Nope.


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    (Oh wow, I was first, which apparently means no one else is waiting for their laundry to dry on a Friday night)
    I’d also like to say that the Biltmore is *probably* the largest house in NC,but also that Furtick’s could be called AMONG the largest. A quick Google search reveals this one:http://www.wcnc.com/story/news/slideshows/2014/06/30/10899908/
    is bigger. Just a little note to be accurate. 🙂


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    Steven Furtick doesn’t want you to know his earnings, but with his 16000 square foot home he is glorifying that he is so very, very rich.


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    Furtick makes me want to throw up. How does he dare call himself a Christian? How does his congregation put up with his disgusting nonsense? I will never understand how these clowns get the positions that they do (Driscoll, MacDonald, and the rest of their ilk).

    At the end of the day, the people need to grow some discernment, or these serpents (no offense meant to all good snakes) will continue to thrive.

  7. Pingback: Theology-related quote for the day | Civil Commotion


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    @ Sarah:
    Note me exact wording. “Under one roof.”


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    @ dee:

    Isn’t Biltmore a museum now, or does someone actually live there?


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    Furtick sure knows how to use his family as a shield. He’s really good at deflection too. How despicable.


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    Steve Furtich to his church: ” thank you for your tithe money that helped me build a 16000 square foot home to my glory.”


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    @ Bridget:
    It’s no longer a Vanderbilt residence, but i have a sneaking suspicion that they might have retained a number of rooms for visits, as with their former summer “cottage” (it’s ginormous), The Breakers, in Newport, RI.


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    @ numo:

    True! I just visited The Breakers a few weeks ago. American castles is what I would call them. After a decade or so no one could afford the upkeep on them though.


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    On the other hand, sometimes it’s heartbreaking how little we compensate our pastors and those who give their lives for the gospel. I’ve seen that as well.


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    @ Bridget:
    Did you really? I haven’t been up thst way in many years, but it was fascinating to visit that mansion and a few others. Thd Breakers is a great example of gaudy, wretched excess, that’s for sure! It impressed me snd made me wonder why on earth they bothered, all at the same time.

    Btw, parts of the film version of Being There were shot at The Biltmore.


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    A 16,000 sq. ft. mansion …….. I wonder how many maids and gardeners salaries are being paid with those tithes?


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    @ Bridget:
    A few years ago i read a piece on Anderson Cooper in the NYT. He mentioned the family’s private suite at The Breakers and went on to say that he and his mother (Gloria V.) were staying there around the time that i visited. Maybd i saw him and didn’t realize that he was one of them – he mentioned gawking at the tourists. One of the other “cottages” used to be owned by a VERY eccentric family – they were kind of sneak-observing the house tour group thst i was in, and that was kind of creepy and Addams Family-ish.


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    @ Bridget:
    It is a museum and it is worth a walk through. I do not remember hearing anything about the family still visiting but that place is so huge, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Duggars lived there and no one saw them!


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    Why we left the mega church we attended. Furtick and Olsteen books appearing in the bookstore.

    Pastor demanding 10% without any reciprocal transparency. Cult like hiring of relatives and relatives of relatives.

    This guy is such a knucklehead.


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    @ dee:
    Well, the family being there in Newport was a closely guarded secret, although obviously, the staff knew.


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    The outrage about Furtick et al. is rightly placed in my opinion. But it obscures the reality most pastors and their families experience. I come from a family of elders and pastors. And I have seen plus my family has experienced the opposite end of abuse–i.e. from congregations not paying the pastor live-able wages.

    If I am not mistaken, the average salary for a pastor is less than $40K a year in the USA. That is less than most engineers make coming out of undergraduate. Many pastors have roughly twice as much education and are paid less than an engineer or a nurse for that matter. Do we value quality spiritual care so little?

    Personally, a fairer way to gauge compensation, in my opinion, is to consider what people with similar levels of education would be paid in one’s community. I was part of a church doing a new hire, and they decided publicly to pay the incoming pastor at the same level as a local junior faculty member at the university in that city. I thought that sounded fair to all parties, and it obviously has stuck with me as a good example of figuring out such things.


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    I remember Steven saying it was money from his privately-authored books that generated so much cash, and that he donated all or part of it back to the church, somehow justifying his likely tithe-based income. I can think of dozens of evangelical pastor/authors that could say the same, but the bottom line is that the books (of most of these guys) would not sell without the direct and indirect support of the church, which provides the platform from which to build your brand, the accommodated work schedule and resources to research, write,publish, and publicize, and the obvious fact that once a book sells, the celebrity of the pastor/writer grows, the church becomes more well-known, more people attend, and revenue grows. It’s a business like any other. Only sleazier.


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    @ Janet:
    Money changers in the Temple.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    A 16,000 sq. ft. mansion …….. I wonder how many maids and gardeners salaries are being paid with those tithes?

    Paid?
    You really expect Pastor’s maids & staff to get PAID?
    It’s a MINISTRY(TM)!


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    How much more abuse will it take before the people wake up and realize this shallow show is not church and that motivational speaker is no pastor?

    Wake up people. You can get far better entertainment for much less than 10% of your income. Even the most expensive annual pass to Disneyland is only a thousand bucks. As blogger Michael Newnham once wrote, “Pastor, if your media budget is bigger than your ‘benevolence’ budget, you need to get saved.”

    I have a feeling that Elevation Church spends far more on its weekly shows, stage props, lighting, and so on, than on helping the poor, the widowed, and the orphaned. I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt it.


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    Janet wrote:

    I remember Steven saying it was money from his privately-authored books that generated so much cash,

    Does ManaGAWD count juicing costs?
    Juicing a book onto the best-seller lists costs $210,000.
    Twenty-one hundred Benjamins. Cash up front.
    “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”


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    numo wrote:

    @ dee:
    Well, the family being there in Newport was a closely guarded secret, although obviously, the staff knew.

    They still visit. The third floor is furnished for their use.


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    5. Do not give any money to a pastor who is building huge houses, flying private jets, and spending church work time writing books and speaking at conferences which also pay him large fees.

    Even when threatened with Eternal Hell.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Janet:
    Money changers in the Temple.

    “If you want to make a million dollars, start your own religion.”
    — L Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology


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    @ Bridget:
    So now they’re open about it? Interesting, but… it’s Newport. I wouldn’t expect anything other than solidarity among the rich.


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    @ Bridget:
    See, it’s been a couple of decades since i was there. Some things actually have changed a bit, maybe because anyone can post to social media now.


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    Elevation church had 33 million dollars in contributions per year, 9 million dollars in personnel per year, 3.2 million dollars in outreach per year, and Elevation church has 25 million dollars in cash. Something is missing here?


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    The quote by Jerome summarizes Furtick best.
    His video…whew. I really like how he completely flipped Morgan’s question about his personal income, into how it’d be arrogant for him to tell how much he GAVE! No one asked what you gave, they asked what you made….

    Divorce Minister mentioned that a lot of pastors aren’t making even the median income; I’m sure this is true for some, but I choke a bit knowing more than a handful of folks who are profiting, than sacrificing and serving. This has been a point of contention for me for those in church leadership and ministries, for a very long time. Perhaps I’m in a rare minority who happens to know a large amount of folks making bank, but somehow I don’t think it true.

    To be upfront: I no longer attend church, have been “done” for a long time. And my personal view is that most churches are little more than cleverly disguised businesses. I am always a little surprised at just how good people are at manipulating money from others, and how very willing folks are to give their hard-earned cash over to those asking for it.

    I could list a dozen examples of those I personally know who profit from others under the guise of ministry. And while I know there are good//honest folks out there, I think an unfortunate majority of *ministers* as nothing more than smaller-scale versions of Furtick. They’re all in it for the easy money.
    Most would not willingly work normal jobs where they’d be subject to management, accountability, schedules, timelines, demands, secular ethics, and complete removal of all the theological BS.

    “Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you. What people don’t realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course it is the cross.” – Flannery O’Conner


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    Steven Furtive. FTFY.


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    perhaps Furtik’s congregation all live at his house too? In that case he’s got fairly economical digs eh?


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    The outrage about Furtick et al. is rightly placed in my opinion. But it obscures the reality most pastors and their families experience. I come from a family of elders and pastors. And I have seen plus my family has experienced the opposite end of abuse–i.e. from congregations not paying the pastor live-able wages.
    If I am not mistaken, the average salary for a pastor is less than $40K a year in the USA. That is less than most engineers make coming out of undergraduate. Many pastors have roughly twice as much education and are paid less than an engineer or a nurse for that matter. Do we value quality spiritual care so little?
    Personally, a fairer way to gauge compensation, in my opinion, is to consider what people with similar levels of education would be paid in one’s community. I was part of a church doing a new hire, and they decided publicly to pay the incoming pastor at the same level as a local junior faculty member at the university in that city. I thought that sounded fair to all parties, and it obviously has stuck with me as a good example of figuring out such things.

    Not all of us live near cities, where we have a “local junior faculty member” to compare salaries too. In my neck of the woods, the average wage is $38, 000, which is why very few churches near me can afford full time pastors.


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    EricL wrote:

    How much more abuse will it take before the people wake up and realize this shallow show is not church and that motivational speaker is no pastor?
    Wake up people. You can get far better entertainment for much less than 10% of your income. Even the most expensive annual pass to Disneyland is only a thousand bucks. As blogger Michael Newnham once wrote, “Pastor, if your media budget is bigger than your ‘benevolence’ budget, you need to get saved.”
    I have a feeling that Elevation Church spends far more on its weekly shows, stage props, lighting, and so on, than on helping the poor, the widowed, and the orphaned. I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt it.

    I doubt it too.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    5. Do not give any money to a pastor who is building huge houses, flying private jets, and spending church work time writing books and speaking at conferences which also pay him large fees.
    Even when threatened with Eternal Hell.

    For sure.


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    Haitch wrote:

    perhaps Furtik’s congregation all live at his house too? In that case he’s got fairly economical digs eh?

    Giving new meaning to “house church”.


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    I came across this link which reverse engineered Steven Furticks salary based on public documents concerning his home. It estimates at LEAST 500k.

    https://efurtick.wordpress.com/

    Pretty good estimates if you ask me.


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     __

    “Religious Mud Slingers R Us?”

    hmmm…

      Steven Furtick’s proverbial detractors (for many years now) keep throwing da mud, –but nothing seems to be really sticking…

    Skreeeeeeeetch !

    Wartburg Watch, please ‘try’ harder,

    Steven Furtick is apparently not as crass, loose mouth, ambitious, greedy, or as coporately fianically challenged  as MarkyD apparently was, or as ethically challenged as Brother Humility Charles  J. MyHinny was…

    -snicker-

    huh?

    “We here at Elivation exist so that people far from God will be raised to life in Christ.”  -Steven Furtick

    What?

    “Buried In Baptism, Raised In The Newness Of Life” ?

    https://vimeo.com/73148422

    could b.

    Deze shoes are made for walking?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvvVFavzX3U

      Jesus instructed His disciples NOT to pull up the ‘teres’, least they disturb the ‘wheat’. The Lord has commissioned his angelic host the job to harvest and place His wheat in His barns, on THAT DAY…, 

    Wait for it?

    hmmm…

    You will certainly not run outa ‘towns’ to preach da foolishness of the gospel in fo da Lord returns…

    “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, ‘
    I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside…’ ”  -Apostle Paul

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes… For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who ‘believe’ (R) .” -Apostle Paul

    Charlotte, North Carolina is only one of many ‘towns’…

    (grin)

    These ‘towns’, –they are ‘all’ white with harvest…Nežpa?

    Well then?

    A ‘gentle’ reminder, perhaps?

    (bump)

    “This ‘gospel of the kingdom’ ™ shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come…” – Jesus

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” Apostle Paul. 2 Thess. 2:11

    Sure, there are may ways that ‘wickedness’ ™ deceives those who are perishing, Yet , they perish because they ‘refused’ to love the truth and so be saved…

    (sadface)

    Dear Wartburg Reader, Please don’t be one of them…

    TTFN  🙂

    Sopy
    __
    Regale’d Respite: “Doctor My ÊYÈS?”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj6Q55ZbVio


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    Did anyone else get the impression Steven Furtick wanted everyone to think he’s zero percent greedy, and that he gives more than he gets? Because that seemed to be the message he wanted to convey in the interview, which served as the basis for why he was keeping mum on his income, because the Bible says we shouldn’t announce our giving? As the Brits say, “Pull the other one!”

    So, we’re supposed to believe he and his wife are giving more than they are receiving? Or, if we knew how much of their income they were giving away, people would be astonished at how they still manage to live so lavishly?

    Because I think that may be what he’s attempting to drive home: give, give, give more than you receive, and God will pay you back 100 fold. So, it’s like this: “Look at our lives! See how well off we are? That’s because the more we receive, the more we give, and we don’t want to brag about how much we’re giving but obviously we’re giving away a whole lot, because look at how well we’re living! Which can happen to you, too, if you give away more than you receive!”

    I think he was primarily concerned in the interview with protecting the idea he’s planted in the minds of the people who attend Elevation that he and his wife are just super generous, godly people without a selfish, greedy, bone in their bodies.

    But, of course, if they knew the actual numbers, then that bubble would burst in an instant.

    It really should have busted when he first told his congregation that the house he was building wasn’t “that great”. Why lie about it, hmm?

    And I gotta say, the guy loves to be adored. I get a really weird feeling about him. If he’s willing to say God gave him that house, what else might he be assuming? I’m sure he’s already assuming a lot more than that house.


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    I would take things one stage further and say do not go to a church that is not governed democratically by its members (in some form or other). Otherwise who are the leaders accountable to? Not the people who make up the church!


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    I just looked looked up what Junior Faculty members make at the local university…..it is less than what I made before I retired from teaching at the poorest paying school district in this region of Texas.
    They might use a little different gauge here….perhaps the median pay at Beaumont ISD? ( Got the oil money….well, they had oil money…)


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    Recently attended a day seminar on stewardship, or generosity as my denomination now calls it. The main speaker challenged pastors to be very open and transparent about what they give, not to brag; but rather to show the congregation that they practice what they preach. Perhaps that is good idea, if and only if, the pastor is willing to give verifiable evidence of his giving claims.


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    Steven Furtick started the church therefore Steven Furtick owns the church. It’s a corporation with one owner that provides a service for fee arrangement with the customers. What galls me is that it’s tax exempt. I watched the documentary on Scientology “Going Clear” – there’s a part about how the IRS completely rolled over when Scientology claimed religious persecution. It’s all about religious freedom and it seems that as long as the celebrity pastor doesn’t stray to far into the political realm, there’s nothing the government can do about it. Furtick’s customers are getting something from the church. Ultimately it will be the attendees who will decide the fate of Elevation Inc. I think it’s great that TWW gets the information out there for attendees and future attendees (and those who may attend similar organizations) to make an informed decision.


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    Btw, I’m guessing Ariana Grande would find it difficult not to take a few licks of those donuts in the display case! They sure do look yummy. And the cider sounds good too, although I’ve never had hot cider served with whipped cream. Is that a southern thang?


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    Jack wrote:

    Ultimately it will be the attendees who will decide the fate of Elevation Inc.

    Absolutely. And what needs to be considered here is the culture surrounding the locations where this type of thing is allowed to breed.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    what needs to be considered here is the culture surrounding the locations where this type of thing is allowed to breed.

    On, well, let me mention here that Charlotte is in the South and we in the South are thoroughly on the side of individual freedoms including freedom of religion. Something about the bill of rights and all.


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    IMO the Charlotte Observer does well to be concerned about financial shenanigans. That shenanigans go on with untaxed dollars needs to stop. As to how that plays over into the religious culpability of the attendees I am not so sure. As I have mentioned before a person at my former church is strongly pro-Elevation for reasons that have nothing to do with the money, and is willing to overlook and/or disbelieve that the shenanigans matter one way or the other. Her reasons are not bad reasons though I think that she goes too far. Perhaps we as a nation need to tax all churches and church missions equally. That would implement one of the aspects of the church/state separation issue at any rate.


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    @ Ian:
    Every single church I was in as a kid, the congregation debated and set all staff salaries and voted on it. I just do not understand this willingness by folks to go along with this. It worries me for our country as a whole.


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    @ Paula Rice: How many Catholics in the North know what their Bishop is paid or even been to his residence? This might seem unusual for evangelicals but it is really not new.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Ian:
    Every single church I was in as a kid, the congregation debated and set all staff salaries and voted on it. I just do not understand this willingness by folks to go along with this. It worries me for our country as a whole.

    We left a church because the polity changed from congregations to elder led. Church constitution was dismantled, and financials hidden.


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    @ numo:
    I agree. The Biltmore is so big, they could have the Armed Services Marching Band practice in one wing and no one would ever hear it!


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    @ Mae:

    That’s understandable. I am aware that paying a pastor is more challenging in rural areas. That said, what does the area pay a high school teacher with a masters? Or the principle? I consider those sort of jobs comparable as well. Not every pastor has gone to seminary and has seminary debt. They may be able to make a go with less and actually use the housing allowance properly–i.e. so that rural communities can have a pastor as opposed to these swindlers who abuse that tax exemption.


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    The first church my husband worked for was a mean racist little congregation in a dying town (there aren’t a lot of options for a single preacher). I doubt they ever gave to charity, but they had a million dollars collecting dust in the bank.

    My general rule for judging congregations/churches is how do they spend their money and how do they treat people. That seems to be how Jesus often judged.


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    @ Mae:
    Usually they look for loopholes in the by laws while the pew sitters had no clue what they were doing during the honeymoon phase. Later the argument would be about what the by law meant–a distraction from their deceptive behavior. Damage done. If not nipped in the bud right then by sending them packing, the church, its assets, etc are theirs.

    They are like covert disguised Barbarians at the Gate. Trojan raiders? And that is not even including the Starr up church plants.

    Still, I wonder if we could pressure NAMB to tell the world how much they gave Furtick to start Elevation?


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    @ Mae:
    That’s understandable. I am aware that paying a pastor is more challenging in rural areas. That said, what does the area pay a high school teacher with a masters? Or the principle? I consider those sort of jobs comparable as well. Not every pastor has gone to seminary and has seminary debt. They may be able to make a go with less and actually use the housing allowance properly–i.e. so that rural communities can have a pastor as opposed to these swindlers who abuse that tax exemption.

    Yes, that’s possible. Our part time pastor, is also a music teacher at the middle school. When he was 40, he went to seminary. We only support his housing costs. He is a fine man, and a good pastor.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Paula Rice wrote:
    what needs to be considered here is the culture surrounding the locations where this type of thing is allowed to breed.
    On, well, let me mention here that Charlotte is in the South and we in the South are thoroughly on the side of individual freedoms including freedom of religion. Something about the bill of rights and all.

    Unless, they are non-Christian, and then they fall under scrutiny.


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    @ Divorce Minister:
    Except teachers are not asked if they have college debt. Expensive education for low paying job. I see massive change coming on that one.


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    @ K.D.:

    We wish. Our government is not under wage/pension scrutiny at all. Especially in mid management and up positions. Administrative Gov jobs these days tend to pay better and have better benefits and guaranteed pensions.


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    @ Lydia:
    Haha,yes they are like, “Trogan Raiders”. Exposure of the excessive financial incentives, gains of these so called, *churches*, might put the right kind of pressure on the NAMB, to rein in these abuses.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    We wish. Our government is not under wage/pension scrutiny at all. Especially in mid management and up positions. Administrative Gov jobs these days tend to pay better and have better benefits and guaranteed pensions.

    You haven’t lived in East Texas have you?


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    @ Haitch:

    Funny!


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    K.D. wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ K.D.:
    We wish. Our government is not under wage/pension scrutiny at all. Especially in mid management and up positions. Administrative Gov jobs these days tend to pay better and have better benefits and guaranteed pensions.
    You haven’t lived in East Texas have you?

    Deebs, please omit my above post, I misread the post….sorry…


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    danlinrm wrote:

    Compare Furtick et. al. with this wonderful faithful woman.
    http://www.arlington-tx.gov/news/2015/11/12/tillie-burgin-mission-arlington-helping-others-realize-the-american-dream/

    Tillie and Mission Arlington are the real deal. Living in the Arlington, TX area myself, it’s a great outreach/ministry to support whether financially or in person. I encourage any DFW residents to support this cause!!
    Tillie and Mission Arlington put Furtick and Elevation church to shame.


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    Tillie and Mission Arlington put Furtick and Elevation church to shame.

    Heck, Tillie and Mission Arlington put the majority of DFW churches (Gateway, Fellowship, TVC I’m looking at you) to shame.


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    K.D. wrote:

    Unless, they are non-Christian, and then they fall under scrutiny.

    It may be that there is more of that in smaller towns or rural areas than here where I live, and I gather that east texas may some some issues that we do not have so much, so that is a good point you have mentioned.


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    Sarah wrote:

    I hope my friends in Charlotte read and share this article.

    Oh, I am sharing every chance I get. This guy gets my blood boiling like no other.


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    “… Furtick lives in the largest home (16,000 sq feet) under one roof in North Carolina …”

    “Jesus sent them out to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick, with these words, ‘Take nothing for your journey — neither a stick nor a purse nor food nor money, nor even extra clothes!’ … ‘Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head.'” (Luke 9)

    Paul says “The elders who perform their leadership duties well are to be considered worthy of double honor (financial support), especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching [the word of God concerning eternal salvation through Christ] … The worker is worthy of his wages [he deserves fair compensation].” (1 Timothy 5)

    Thus, considering the 1st century design for the New Testament church (even in a 21st century context), we should ask this about our pastors: (1) are they willing to follow Jesus’ calling to sacrifice all – even money – for the Kingdom of God – is this truly the attitude of their heart?; (2) are they truly preaching and teaching the word of God concerning eternal salvation through Christ or are they more focused on the teachings and traditions of men; (3) are they performing their duties well enough to be worthy enough of “double honor” – how would we calculate double honor in today’s church? … is a huge salary, mansion, and fancy car double, triple, quadruple or more what the average folks in the pew possess?; (4) are they ‘really’ working hard or hanging out in the coffee shop? are they accessible to their congregation? are they expending their lives throughout the week to reach the lost with the Gospel that saves or focused on a tickle-the-ear gospel which accumulates wealth?; (5) what is fair compensation?

    If there is not enough evidence to convince you that your pastor is willing to live as in (1) above and preach as in (2) above, then send them packing! If they are obviously more dedicated to the Kingdom, rather than their kingdom, then compensate them as God moves you to do so. In all the religious noise that is out there, if you can find a true shepherd whose heart is to love, feed, and protect the flock (rather than use and abuse it), then hold onto him with all your might! They are rare and endangered species in the 21st century.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    If I am not mistaken, the average salary for a pastor is less than $40K a year in the USA. That is less than most engineers make coming out of undergraduate. Many pastors have roughly twice as much education and are paid less than an engineer or a nurse for that matter. Do we value quality spiritual care so little?

    They should be paid less, engineers and nurses are more valuable to society.


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    Joe2 wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:
    If I am not mistaken, the average salary for a pastor is less than $40K a year in the USA. That is less than most engineers make coming out of undergraduate. Many pastors have roughly twice as much education and are paid less than an engineer or a nurse for that matter. Do we value quality spiritual care so little?
    They should be paid less, engineers and nurses are more valuable to society.

    You know the same preachers as me?


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    The answer to the megachurch establishment is found in the previous post: Upside Down Church Through Inside Out Christianity – Wade Burleson.

    Burleson reveals the substitution of external trappings (building, leader, programming) for the internal or what he terms “inside out” transformation of growing in Christ.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Perhaps we as a nation need to tax all churches and church missions equally. That would implement one of the aspects of the church/state separation issue at any rate.

    Very much agreed. It really is high time to tax religion and overhaul the 501-c3 system so that grifters and hucksters can no longer operate with impunity under the guise of ‘serving jeezus’. The thing is though, every time lawmakers try to reform the system, said reform always gets buried in committee.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    I would even settle for the more rigorous accountability of non religious non profits at this point.

    Can you imagine the amount of money in property tax alone since the advent of mega churches over the last 40 years? A bit has been written on this speculating as much as 100 Billion in property tax alone across the US. That means citizens who don’t even attend the mega are subsidizing it.


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    @ Jimmy:

    Interesting article. 3.2 million dollars is listed by elevation church as for outreach. I wonder of it went into this mansion as a form of outreach? Home is listed as 3 million dollars.


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    *
    *
    __

    “Freebird?”

    hmmm…

    Yeah, you know it might be time for Jesus to take His church and fly… 

    huh?

    We got rockstars in the churches,
    All our church preachers look like porn,
    All my religious heroes hit the highway long ago…
    They don’t hang out here no more …

    What?

    You can tell me on my cellphone,
    You can text me all day long,
    But you won’t catch this  religious freebird,
    I’ll already be long gone…

    Like Steve McQueen 
    With all this insanity racing about,
    All we seem ta need is the Holy Spirit, a Bible, and a prayer ta Jesus…
    And we’ze gonna make it all right…

    I ain’t takin’ $hit off no one 
    Pastor that was yesterday 
    I’m an all American Christian 
    Making my big box church getaway 
    Yeah you know it’s time 
    I gotta fly…

    Like Steve McQueen 
    Underneath your church radar screen 
    Your proverbial pastor never gonna catch me with his lies… [1]

    VaaaaRooooooommmm!

    “I Am The Way, The Truth, And The Life… and I’m coming soon…” -Jesus

    Party Crasher?

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

     could b.

    Skreeeeeeeeetch !

    Might wanna ‘Watch’ for ‘Him , huh?

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    [1] *My thanks to Singer/Songwriter Sheryl Crow for the use of her tune: “Steve Maqueen”, I did give it a bit of a Tune-Up…-snicker- Rock-On!
    Sheryl Crow: “Steve Maqueen”

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qlywcuw-1TU

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/sherylcrow/stevemcqueen.html

    Writer(s): Sheryl ‘Suzanne’ Crow, John Shanks
    LyricsCopyright: Sony/ATV Tunes LLC, Warner-tamerlane Music Corp., Old Crow Music, WB Music Corp.  All rights reserved. U.S. Title 17 copywrite infringement (graciously) unintended…

    ;~)


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    Thing is like any fraud out there, Furtick makes it about something else, attempts the sort of clumy misdirection that only works on someone brain numbed enough to attend his church–which is, I suppose, effective for him in its own way.

    Hey Steve, we’re not curious about how much you contribute. Not really that concerned. That’s not on the table. We want to know how much YOU MAKE. You hear that, Steve? HOW MUCH YOU MAKE. You capable of comprehending the English language to the level of say, the average six year old child?

    If I ask my six year old: “Hey Matthew, what’s your allowance?” And he answers “I can’t answer that, because the God said in the Bible that I’m not supposed to brag about how much I give away”, I’m going to be led to wonder whether that kid has some kind of auditory issues or is addled in some way.


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    @ roebuck:

    “I will never understand how these clowns get the positions that they do (Driscoll, MacDonald, and the rest of their ilk).”
    ++++++++++++

    church culture is heady with psychotropic fumes. objectivity erodes away.


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    Monuts is the best!


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    Joe2 wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:

    They should be paid less, engineers and nurses are more valuable to society.

    This sort of sentiment actually fuels the situations of non-disclosure of clergy pay. They (rightly) are fearful of congregants financially abusing them–i.e. using their skills and services without fair compensation (which means being able to pay off seminary loans and provide for their families).

    While Furtick is an extreme example and probably missuses such Scripture to legitimize such financial issues, I would just like to point that Scripture is very clear that pastors/elders ought to be respected and paid well (see I Timothy 5:17-18).

    If one wants quality pastoral care, then one ought to be prepared to pay for quality pastoral care. Personally, I think it would be foolish to have a mechanic do heart surgery on a loved one–even a well read mechanic–and similarly, I think it is foolish to have an engineer provide soul care without any professional training. That’s just me.

    I could go on…but I will just say that either extreme is wrong–i.e. the Furtick extreme (maybe swindling?) or the “keep the pastor poor” extreme. Both are ungodly and shameful stances.


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    Eagle wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Lol!! True HUG!!

    Serve God by serving the god???
    (note upper and lower case)


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    Furtick’s clothing and movements amp up the showmanship and scream narcissism. This hunk o’ man o’ Gawd strides, leaps, and prances around in an endless succession of teen-casual pants so tight they look sprayed on. The poor hapless worshiper has a duty to look at the preacher, and the preacher is selling his own sex appeal, along with that onion-in-the-hanky sincere emotion.

    OK. I’m calling him the Hanky Hunk.


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    Jack wrote:

    Furtick’s customers are getting something from the church. Ultimately it will be the attendees who will decide the fate of Elevation Inc.

    Every year the customers spend listening to this man’s shallow, misleading “messages” is a year they are not hearing a deep, authentic challenge. Every dollar they give to this man’s theater is a dollar that does not clothe the poor, or put a potato on the plate of a sincere minister.

    The members likely believe in Christ, but they are following a fad if not an utter fraud. What a waste of goodwill, time, and money.

    Does anybody know if this church makes it hard to leave?


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    Friend wrote:

    Furtick’s clothing and movements amp up the showmanship and scream narcissism. This hunk o’ man o’ Gawd strides, leaps, and prances around in an endless succession of teen-casual pants so tight they look sprayed on. The poor hapless worshiper has a duty to look at the preacher, and the preacher is selling his own sex appeal, along with that onion-in-the-hanky sincere emotion.
    OK. I’m calling him the Hanky Hunk.

    If there were any doubts about this creep’s narcissism, consider the fact that there is an official ‘Pastor Steve’ coloring book handed out to the kiddies in the Sunday School. I wish I was kidding, I really do.


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    This is all very interesting of course. However I would like to point out that as far as I know people living in the US are literate, can read and think, can buy Bibles in a multitude of translations, can see and taste what is good, and thus if they wish to follow this young man, be part of the church he fronts and tithe what must be vast amounts of theor money, then so be it. That is their right; and their responsibility too, naturally.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    I would just like to point that Scripture is very clear that pastors/elders ought to be respected and paid well (see I Timothy 5:17-18).

    I guess I have to disagree with the interpretation being “clear”. Although I hope you understand I have no problem with you being paid as a pastor! I just have a problem with that interpretation being “clear”.

    In 1 Timothy such are paid with “double honor” and examples are used from Duet about the ox, etc and a worker worthy of his wages. Who is paid with single honor?

    We see some aspect of this in Luke 10 where Jesus tells them to go out on their travels and accept hospitality-food, shelter- which was referred to as a “wage”.

    Salary, benefits and tax exempt housing allowances, etc, are a far cry from the spirit of 1 Tim 5. If it is true then what about churches that don’t pay their plurality of elders?

    So in reality scripture is not really all that “clear” concerning pastor/elder “wages”. But then, I would not do what you do for free, either. :o)


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    roebuck wrote:

    an official ‘Pastor Steve’ coloring book handed out to the kiddies in the Sunday School

    Sorry to react in a juvenile way, but… Ew!


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    Bill Johnson of Bethel Church Redding Ca makes $350K from his “ministry” signs and wonders and stroke folks by telling them they are “royalty”


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    Clarissa wrote:

    This is all very interesting of course. However I would like to point out that as far as I know people living in the US are literate, can read and think, can buy Bibles in a multitude of translations, can see and taste what is good, and thus if they wish to follow this young man, be part of the church he fronts and tithe what must be vast amounts of theor money, then so be it. That is their right; and their responsibility too, naturally.

    Of course it’s the church members’ right to let themselves be fleeced. What’s your point? That we shouldn’t point out the nature of this creep’s act and that it has little or nothing to do with Christ? In that case, I must disagree.


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    @ Lydia:

    I Timothy 5 is not the only place that speaks about paying pastors/elders. I Corinthians 9 is another place. There the Apostle Paul talks about receiving this “pay” as a right that he chooses to forgo as was his prerogative (as someone who supported himself via another profession). My point from that passage is that such pay was viewed as rightfully due a New Testament religious leader in the Church.

    I do not claim to say the Bible sets what that pay or compensation exactly looks like in modernity. However, I do not think God would want His pastoral servants put in a place where they were unable to meet basic needs, because they chose to be pastors and not, say, an engineer or even a CEO of a non-profit.


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    I have said here before, and I will repeat it again until all American churches follow my advice……because of course they will….

    Tie salaries to local school districts. First year teacher = first year pastor. Principal = Lead pastor in a medium to large church, etc. It is a clear cut way to set salaries, it is hard to argue with from the congregations point of view, or, the church staff point of view.

    As far as Furtick goes, I don’t think it is inappropriate to point out the appearance of gross financial stewardship abuse….I think his theology and “juicing” spontaneous altar calls is a bigger red flag. If someone is willing to accept those things, they aren’t going to be too bothered about him making 500k a year(or more).

    To Clarissa’s point, I agree, in principal, where you are coming from. But the TWW (who I agree with as often as I disagree) generally focuses on abusive attitudes, not money issues. They haven’t written an article about Creflo Dollar, or St Augosteen, because they aren’t also showing(that I am aware of) the same level of haughtiness that Furtick displays in his responses. He didn’t just say, “It’s none of your business”. He twisted the entire meaning of the question and forced in some spiritual sounding mumbo jumbo to justify his obsfucation of the issue. THAT it is leading indicator for other manipulative behaviors. If he is willing to act that way in this instance, it isn’t difficult to imagine he uses that same reasoning(or lack thereof) to force his people to go along with whatever he says is the way to go.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    I Timothy 5 is not the only place that speaks about paying pastors/elders. I Corinthians 9 is another place. There the Apostle Paul talks about receiving this “pay” as a right that he chooses to forgo as was his prerogative (as someone who supported himself via another profession). My point from that passage is that such pay was viewed as rightfully due a New Testament religious leader in the Church.
    I do not claim to say the Bible sets what that pay or compensation exactly looks like in modernity. However, I do not think God would want His pastoral servants put in a place where they were unable to meet basic needs, because they chose to be pastors and not, say, an engineer or even a CEO of a non-profit.

    There is an awful lot of territory between ‘meeting basic needs’ and the opulent lifestyles of many of the mega-celebrity-pastors – which is what we’re talking about here. Surely a pastor ought to be paid enough to not have to worry about money all the time (though half of his congregation probably does). But if the pastor becomes a wealthy man, he is going to forget what it’s like to be a normal person. To be blunt, he will be an ineffective pastor.


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    “Earthly goods are given to be used, not to be collected…. Hoarding is idolotry.” — Dietrich Bonhoeffer
    Checked out the link at the top of the post and found this quote from Bonhoeffer. So, Dee and Deb, you have posted regarding sexual predators in the church, as well as financial predators in the church, and power predators in the church. God bless you both, and God bless Wade Burleson for his post about what is the real church. Bon courage.


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    @ roebuck:

    Agreed that there’s a lot of room between these celebrity pastors and poverty-line compensation. Obviously, I am against financial abuse as in the Furtick case apparently.

    However, I disagree that having wealth–whether through salary, inheritance, etc–NECESSARILY makes a pastor ineffective and out of touch. That is a character thing and not a wealth matter. The Apostle Paul knew both wealth and poverty yet was not ineffective, IMO.


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    roebuck wrote:

    I will never understand how these clowns get the positions that they do (Driscoll, MacDonald, and the rest of their ilk).

    As long as you have folks willing to buy a ticket to Circus Church, you will always have clowns to entertain them. In Circus Church, platforms have been constructed over prayer altars (which aren’t needed anymore) to provide celebrities to strut their stuff. In Circus Church, there is cool music and hoochie-cootchie praise teams in tight pants to entertain you. In Circus Church, you can come as you are and leave as you are. We have clowns because they have an audience who want it so.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    @ roebuck:
    Agreed that there’s a lot of room between these celebrity pastors and poverty-line compensation. Obviously, I am against financial abuse as in the Furtick case apparently.
    However, I disagree that having wealth–whether through salary, inheritance, etc–NECESSARILY makes a pastor ineffective and out of touch. That is a character thing and not a wealth matter. The Apostle Paul knew both wealth and poverty yet was not ineffective, IMO.

    We will have to ‘agree to disagree’. If you are struggling financially, and your pastor is living in a huge mansion with all the perqs of wealth, I say that’s a problem.

    In any case, Paul never had wealth in the sense we’re talking about here. And the poverty kept him ‘real’. In fact, using Paul as some sort of benchmark for pastor compensation is absurd when you think about it for 10 seconds.


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    roebuck wrote:

    In any case, Paul never had wealth in the sense we’re talking about here. And the poverty kept him ‘real’. In fact, using Paul as some sort of benchmark for pastor compensation is absurd when you think about it for 10 seconds.

    Dee’s point 3 is about what a proper compensation level ought to be for a pastor in general–i.e. the median amount earned in the congregation. So, I would argue that the conversation is more than just a discussion about mega-celebrity pastor compensation.

    As to using Paul, I am simply trying to ground this conversation in Scripture as opposed to simple opinion. Paul talks about being in plenty and being in want in Philippians 4 while yet being content. My point from that is to say that he was the same person, and it was the character–Paul’s–that mattered, NOT the “financial” circumstances.

    I am in total agreement with you regarding financial abuse as I repeatedly say. It is absurd to say you care about your flock and Scripture while many congregants go for basic needs while you drive a Mercedes and live in a mansion all brought to you via church offerings.

    But the mega-church pastor raking in millions is the exception and not the rule for pastors. See:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2013/12/15/average-pastor-salaries-in-united-states-churches/

    It is a little dated (2013), but puts the average pastor’s salary at $28K. Personally, I think that is pathetic and suggests the majority of pastors are closer to the poverty line than living in mansions.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    In any case, Paul never had wealth in the sense we’re talking about here. And the poverty kept him ‘real’. In fact, using Paul as some sort of benchmark for pastor compensation is absurd when you think about it for 10 seconds.
    Dee’s point 3 is about what a proper compensation level ought to be for a pastor in general–i.e. the median amount earned in the congregation. So, I would argue that the conversation is more than just a discussion about mega-celebrity pastor compensation.
    As to using Paul, I am simply trying to ground this conversation in Scripture as opposed to simple opinion. Paul talks about being in plenty and being in want in Philippians 4 while yet being content. My point from that is to say that he was the same person, and it was the character–Paul’s–that mattered, NOT the “financial” circumstances.
    I am in total agreement with you regarding financial abuse as I repeatedly say. It is absurd to say you care about your flock and Scripture while many congregants go for basic needs while you drive a Mercedes and live in a mansion all brought to you via church offerings.
    But the mega-church pastor raking in millions is the exception and not the rule for pastors. See:
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2013/12/15/average-pastor-salaries-in-united-states-churches/
    It is a little dated (2013), but puts the average pastor’s salary at $28K. Personally, I think that is pathetic and suggests the majority of pastors are closer to the poverty line than living in mansions.

    I am totally in favor of pastors making a living wage, such that they and their families can be free from worry on that score.

    As for Paul, when the average pastor gets himself stoned/flogged/run out of town/imprisoned/executed/etc., well… I think I’ve made my point. Paul’s pastorate was not a cushy sinecure. But you knew that.

    The pastors making hundreds of thousands of dollars per annum are surely the exception rather than the rule, but that is what we happen to be talking about in this thread.

    If you want to get all Scriptural and not just ‘simple opinion’ (and my opinions are not simple, and are based on a lot of thinking about these matters over decades), just pop into the Gospels and refresh yourself on what Jesus said about money and the love of money, and how much you should worry about it.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    Personally, I think that is pathetic and suggests the majority of pastors are closer to the poverty line than living in mansions.

    Congregations have expectations. In the church where I grew up, ministers were paid quite poorly but expected to produce several children and live a middle-class life. In my current church, a lovely old house is provided for senior clergy; members want his family to be comfortable, but splashy living would turn people off.

    The subculture at Elevation seems comfortable with Furtick’s wealth.

    Maybe he’s everybody’s one rich friend.


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    @ roebuck:

    I am sorry for writing something offensive regarding “simple opinion.” And I hope you can forgive me.

    The point of my saying not “simple opinion” was NOT to call your position or thoughts simple. It was NOT my attempt to insult you. I try to make it a point when discussing Christian matters to try to ground MY opinion in Scripture as well as to discuss it as a Berean would.

    As to the matters discussed:

    Clearly, we disagree over the use of Paul as an example in this discussion of pastoral pay. That’s fine. We do not have to agree. Let’s try to disagree agreeably. I am no Jesus, but I still strive to live like Him.

    Finally, just as there is a vast range between mega pastors’ salaries and poverty-level compensation for a pastor there is a vast range between serving Money and seeking to be a good steward of resources including money/salary.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    @ roebuck:
    I am sorry for writing something offensive regarding “simple opinion.” And I hope you can forgive me.
    The point of my saying not “simple opinion” was NOT to call your position or thoughts simple. It was NOT my attempt to insult you. I try to make it a point when discussing Christian matters to try to ground MY opinion in Scripture as well as to discuss it as a Berean would.
    As to the matters discussed:
    Clearly, we disagree over the use of Paul as an example in this discussion of pastoral pay. That’s fine. We do not have to agree. Let’s try to disagree agreeably. I am no Jesus, but I still strive to live like Him.
    Finally, just as there is a vast range between mega pastors’ salaries and poverty-level compensation for a pastor there is a vast range between serving Money and seeking to be a good steward of resources including money/salary.

    I don’t really need to forgive you for anything in the heat of a blog comment section. But I totally do 🙂 Vice-versa, I hope…

    Paul as an example of anything is problematical to me – he was a category of one.

    And Jesus had a lot to say about money and its weird effects on people.

    Let’s move on…


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    @ Sopwith:

    True. Maybe the best thing is not to be so judgmental, which I fell into on this issue. I hope everything Furtick said on the television interview and elsewhere is true. I just have a concern with ostentation within a religious context.


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    The wealth of megachurch and seeker-friendly church pastors is repulsive on many levels.

    What is tricky for me is how much is too much and when do I give my opinion and when do I mind my own business?

    Is it OK for a pastor and his family to live in a 1500 sq foot house? 2000? 4000? Where is the line drawn? Some posters have said that pastors should be paid ‘more’ or paid a living wage. How is that defined? Some have said the pastor should be paid the median income of his congregation. How is that determined? Would it be tempting to woo wealthy professionals to your church and not families on gov’t assistance?

    My pastor drives a car that’s about 10 years old. He told me several months ago (when we were discussing pastor salaries) that he could never, never, never get away with driving a new SUV even if he could afford it. Pastors in small towns just can’t do that. But again I thought about where the line is. Are people OK with a car 2 years old? 5 years old? When is it the congregation’s business and when isn’t it?

    And this goes for vacations, hobbies, clothes, etc. also.


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    @ Mark:

    “Maybe the best thing is not to be so judgmental”
    +++++++++++++++

    I feel you’re selling yourself short. You are simply recognizing how ridiculously inappropriate and wrong this whole situation is. This is not being judgemental.

    It’s putting your voice in support of what’s right, honest, and true.


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    @ Haitch:
    Like that giant, rambling hobbit mansion in LoTR (can’t remember the name) that was packed with eccentric relatives and odd memoabilia.


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    @ numo:
    Great Smials, ancestral home of the Took family (info from the internet, natch).


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    Joe2 wrote:

    They should be paid less, engineers and nurses are more valuable to society.

    As an engineer I’m biased and conflicted, I know some good people in the pastor role but I’ve also run across some “pastors” that weren’t worth minimum wage. Sure they had a fan club of devotees but it should have been clear they simply were not delivering to anyone but themselves. Possibly a way to figure out what to pay them is to ask how they value their title of “pastor”, their pay should then be set inversely proportional to how much they revere their title. If the title is that valuable, maybe they should buy their way in?

    I’m typically averse to figuring out what someone should be paid, it is hard enough to figure out what to pay employees in my own business. But we are talking about a non-profit that survives on donated funds so anyone who donates has a direct interest. There is no justifiable reason to keep it secret form the stakeholders.

    As a believer I find it offensive what some of these charlatans are taking in but a question is what is my interest? One of the issues is the special privilege that churches enjoy as non-profits. As much as I loathe the busy bodies in the government and the current government’s corrupt favoritism, I’m beginning to think that churches should enjoy no special status but be required to submit to the same requirements as any other non-profit.

    I may have once thought that what a church pays their “pastor” is their business if it is all out in the open, now I question whether a church should get a non-profit status, in a sense a subsidy, when the non-profit appears to be a vehicle of aggrandizement for a “pastor”.


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    If one wants to be rigidly “biblical,” then pastors should forego a salary and benefits, and live on donations from you individuals. And pay taxes, as Jesus enabled Peter to do, with the whole coin in a fish mouth thing.


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    roebuck wrote:

    There is an awful lot of territory between ‘meeting basic needs’ and the opulent lifestyles of many of the mega-celebrity-pastors – which is what we’re talking about here.

    “Just like LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”


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    Friend wrote:

    This hunk o’ man o’ Gawd strides, leaps, and prances around in an endless succession of teen-casual pants so tight they look sprayed on. The poor hapless worshiper has a duty to look at the preacher, and the preacher is selling his own sex appeal…

    In the words of the Prophet Josie Cotton:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw


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    Eagle wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Lol!! True HUG!!

    Muff Potter wrote:

    It really is high time to tax religion and overhaul the 501-c3 system so that grifters and hucksters can no longer operate with impunity under the guise of ‘serving jeezus’. The thing is though, every time lawmakers try to reform the system, said reform always gets buried in committee.

    Because all GAWD’s grifters and hucksters play the PERSECUTION!!!!! Card and all the Bible Belters tithing their Social Security checks raise a big stink with the Congressmen on the committee. Nobody touches THEIR Pastor/Televangelist/ManaGAWD. (And I wonder if there’s Campaign Contributions(TM) going on as well. Remember how Calvary Chapel Visalia has a lot of the local authorities in Pastor’s pocket? And the Jerk with the Kirk trying to pull a Rajneeshpuram in Moscow, Idaho?)


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    The real issue is the deception and concealment. It is risky to engage in inurement. Churches could theoretically lose their tax exempt status over inurement so they pay vast sums to firms like Capin Crouse to provide reports that will justify high salaries for mega senior pastors. These salaries are based mainly on other non-profit charities where highly skilled and experienced CEO’s fill the top spot. Real CEOs have a risk of being recruited and/or losing their jobs and are compensated competitively. This makes the comparisons of people like Steven Furtick, Perry Noble and Robert Morris to the CEO’s of the American Cancer Society or Goodwill Industries a bit of a stretch.

    Next, Capin Crouse (and their competitors) allow volunteers to be counted as employees. Churches like EC and Gateway have several thousand volunteers. They weight them as full time equivalents (FTE), meaning a volunteer who only works 20 hrs/wk counts as .5 a FTE, 10 hrs/wk = .25 FTE. But it serves to make these kingpins look like they are CEO’s supervising thousands of qualified staff with very real FT staff motivation and employment issues verses greeters, ushers, atmosphere teams and parking lot waving people who can’t wait to be at church/work.

    In 2011 a copy of the highly secretive Capin Crouse study was divulged by Mars Hill staff. This is the study that sought to justify raising Mark Driscoll’s salary to $650,000 a year (plus $200,000 housing allowance and tens of thousands more in benefits and perks). Here is that study: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/11/20/mars-hill-church-2011-and-2012-executive-compensation-studies/
    Church Budget Church Attendance Senior Pastor’s Compensation
    1) $ 30,000,000 13,000 $ 1,000,000
    2) $ 35,000,000 7,500 $ 1,100,000
    3) $ 9,000,000 7,500 $ 429,518
    4) $ 53,700,000 17,000 $ 330,000
    5) $ 8,800,000 3,316 $ 325,000
    6) $ 16,700,000 8,500 $ 275,000
    7) $ 15,000,000 10,000 $ 265,000

    This was 5 years ago. Salaries for top senior pastors have doubled and tripled since 2011. #4 was Gateway. Another blogger confirmed that Robert Morris now makes over $1M per year just in GW salary and Robert says that his 7 figure salary is now determined by these salary studies. Robert first mentioned switching to the salary studies in 2013. There was a noticeable change in Gateway senior and executive pastors upgrading homes and cars around then.
    .
    Five years ago before Sr Pastor salaries skyrocketed, Furtick, with his current level of budget and attendance, could have supported being paid over $1M. In 2015 it would be far easier to justify. Furtick’s comp committee is not going to short change Furtick because to do so would drag down their own salaries. That’s the real reason why Furtick picked the most heavily paid pastors. They have the most to lose if they make SF’s pay too low. These megas can only legally justify the high salaries IF the other megas all have upper 6 to 7 figure salaries. It is highly improbable that Furtick’s base is significantly below $1M a year, since he claims he does not set it. Some Senior Pastors will not accept super high pay because they think it looks bad. Furtick coyly states he accepts what the committee recommends.

    This amount does not include his book royalties, his speaking fees and probably not his cut of the outrageously overpriced EC 7 day seminary – $2,500 tuition for a 7 day conference. But what really rustles my jimmies is the further concealment.

    Furtick’s house was purchased using a secret trust called ‘Jumper Drive Trust’ to keep members from knowing how much it cost. Furtick has a separate ministry business called Steven Furtick Ministries (SFM) https://stevenfurtick.com/. Most the other mega pastors have similar eponymous titled 501(c)3s. They need them to collect book royalties, accept donations and to exempt their large speaking fees from taxation. They record these 4 and 5 figure speaking fees as ‘love offerings’ or ‘contributions’ to make them tax free instead of calling them earned income, which they are. These 501(c)3 Form 990’s are one of the few ways you can check out how much your pastor is making on the side, because most pastors choose to put their name in the 501(c)3 to avoid looking sketchy to the churches and individuals writing them large checks. By using the name Steven Furtick Ministries SF accomplishes this sublimely.
    .
    Now this is where SFM differs from other megas. SFM states this ministry is under the EC umbrella so that all the donations are tax deductible. But if all this money went to EC WHY would SF need a separate SFM website with mailing address in South Carolina to receive donations and process orders for books, cds and dvds? He wouldn’t. EC bookstore and EC accounting would handle these transactions if all the proceeds went straight to EC. SFM merely uses EC for their tax free status so folks can deduct their donations. EC would still have to theoretically roll up SFM into their consolidated financials. But here’s the real genius. Now SFM doesn’t have to file a Form 990! Ever. These pastors make a quarter to a million dollars extra per year on speaking and books and nobody except EC Accounting and the IRS will know how much SF takes in via SFM. Oh that crafty Chunks!
    .
    This way Furtick can pull out more cash in addition to his salary and parsonage allowance yet NO ONE can see how much via a Form 990. His BFF James Brett “Chunks” Corbett also has a nice side for-profit business called Corban Enterprises. As a for profit LLC, Chunks also never has to report his side income to the public. Like Jumper Drive, the name of Chunks’ LLC is meant to deceive members and conceal Corbett’s side income. The address for his Corban Enterprise? The Mathews EC Building. Corbett incorporated at that address back on 5-30-07 when he and Furtick were first setting up shop in Mathews. They’ve been scheming this stuff since back in Shelby.
    .
    These men are money grubbing scoundrels who are hiding as much money and information as they possibly can. There is nothing “biblical” about using these sneaky trusts and misdirected named LLCs and consolidating your personal ministry accounts with EC to avoid filing a Form 990. It is deceitful and we know who the father of all lies is. Wake up folks. This man and his henchman Chunks are world class con artists. When you give 10% of your gross income to EC you are not putting God first; you are putting Steven Furtick first.


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    The title of this article has been making me laugh because when I first read it it sounded like Jesus had told SF how much he, Jesus, makes & forbidden him to tell. Now that would be an interesting number…


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    Bill M wrote:

    As much as I loathe the busy bodies in the government and the current government’s corrupt favoritism, I’m beginning to think that churches should enjoy no special status but be required to submit to the same requirements as any other non-profit.

    Me too. And my thinking changed on this over the years with the rise of celeb pastors and mega churches.

    Take one aspect of a mega church…zoning laws and traffic patterns. Major conflict within a community over those issues yet non members subsidize that sort of infrastructure. Judges tend to be lenient toward churches when it comes to challenges in zoning. Examples from across the country are used in disputes.

    Yet they pay no property tax on acres of prime land in wealthy zip codes.

    I do not believe this is being a good neighbor.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    how much he, Jesus, makes

    I think it’s safe to say that Steven Furtick has more money than God. <—(Ambiguity included at no extra charge.)


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    Mourning Dove wrote:

    What is tricky for me is how much is too much and when do I give my opinion and when do I mind my own business?

    This was the standard response in the mega world to those who inquired about salaries. It is designed to make anyone inquiring look bad and on the defensive.

    You know, people will give to a big non profit and never check the 990 first. In my neck of the woods there have been several non profit CEOs ousted over financial shenanigans and people are shocked to learn they were making base salary of almost 300 grand. It never occurred to them to check that. But it was not enough! At the very least, mega churches should have the same accountability as the typical non profit. The housing allowance is ridiculous.

    I think this complacency is even more pronounced at megas. People don’t think it is their business. And those are the people paying! The question is why do educated American adults think this way about their own money?

    In the cases of Furtick, Noble and others are they paying for weekly entertainment? Club dues?


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    The day before you posted this, the Rev David Robertson, Moderator of the Free Church of Scotland, wrote about megachurches, and Steven Furtick, in his blog “The Wee Flea”, much of which I agreed with. However he closed his piece by saying that Matt Chandler was a good example of a mega church pastor. I posted a brief response, urging caution and mentioned his mishandling of the KarenHinckley case. I referred him to TWW for a full description of what had happened. His response was rude, ill-judged and offensive and it has continued even today. He rated Matt Chandler very highly and a good role model for other ministers of the gospel and put him on a par with John Piper and Timothy Keller. I have withdrawn from further dialogue with him because of his repeated misrepresentation and intemperance. If you are interested, you can catch the article here.

    https://theweeflea.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/elevation-church-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/#comments


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    Friend wrote:

    Furtick’s clothing and movements amp up the showmanship and scream narcissism.

    These young rebels better make their millions now … they will really look stupid gyrating on stage is such garb when they hit 40. Potty-mouth Driscoll’s spiky hairdo was already getting thin by the time he was forced to exit the stage. What little “Word” these characters offer are lost in the package it’s being delivered in. American “Christians” are some of the most gullible folks on the planet to fall for this stuff. “Culturally-relevant” is overworked, while Truth is trampled in the street.


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    @ Max:
    Driscoll was desperately trying to rebrand himself toward the end as the wise uncle in a tweed jacket. You could practically hear his brand manager in the background it was so obvious.

    I am treading on dangerous ground here but I am aware of what some aging celeb pastors do to project image. Some nearing 60 or 70 have even opted for plastic surgery. They were on the celeb trajectory 30 years ago with radio/book deals.

    I am also noticing some sports coach celebs doing this. Warning to men: there are tell tell signs that can be more pronounced on men if one knows what to look for. It actually looks fake.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I am aware of what some aging celeb pastors do to project image

    Indeed! Make-overs are not new to the ministry. Pastoral pride has been playing with plastic surgery, toupees, hair dye, and slick clothes for years. And beware of a pastor with a gold choker-chain – he can see your wallet coming a mile away! Of course, those are descriptors for aging charlatans. The young shepherds prefer tight pants, Spurgeon t-shirts, spiky hairdos, pointy beards, and Calvin tattoos.


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    @ Lydia:

    “I am treading on dangerous ground here but I am aware of what some aging celeb pastors do to project image. Some nearing 60 or 70 have even opted for plastic surgery. They were on the celeb trajectory 30 years ago with radio/book deals.

    …Warning to men: there are tell tell signs that can be more pronounced on men if one knows what to look for. It actually looks fake.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    why is this dangerous ground? Gah, i’m so sick of my stupid religion.

    yes, a man with a face lift, etc looks like a woman cadaver. ie, Ed Young, jr. There are many other examples I can think of.


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    As a teacher, I understand the lack of pay. And trust me, I worked at a very poor district. Say what you will, I knew what I was getting into when I took the position.( And my school salary was published along with everyone else’s by the local paper, each year.)
    Minsters however getting “wealthy” as a minister? Do I think they need a living wage? Yes, of course, but when you get so rich, you seem “ashamed” to let people know how much you’re making…well, it just seems fishy…


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      __

    “A Workman Is Worthy Of His Hire?”

    hmmm…

    Senior Pastor’s Compensation in a 501(c) non-profit corporation is subjective, thus compensation can be certanily justified and is by many factors. 

    Good Stewards?

    The board that oversees EC have a responsibility, and like any other entity or corporate body have contracted experts in the U.S. tax code, a standard practice.

    huh?

    “This man and his henchman Chunks are world class con artists.” -LT 

    What?

    Q. What U.S. law (or tax code) has EC or SFM broken?

    Please explain.

    Please note that (according to the leading authorities in Charlotte) SF is providing a valuable service to the Charlotte community at large. 

    huh?

    (Unpacked)

    The community at large there, profits from citizens who uphold the laws, live peacably, respect the authorities, vote in elections, pay their taxes, provide for their families, and demonstrate responsibility towards their neighbors.

    SF encourages ALL this type of benevolent behavior among the EC community, the greater Charlotte Meteopolis and more.

    Q. What more could a thriving North Carolina metropolis ask for than the peace and prosperity of its citizens, the security and the promise of its posterity?

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    Inspirtional relief:
    Ambrosia: “Time Waits Or No One…”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qwv0dJdSYmg

    ;~)

    — 


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    @ elastigirl:

    “Gah, i’m so sick of my stupid religion.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    Christianity schmistianity

    I resign. (did it long ago, really) feels really good, to be free of any connection to such ‘tomfoolery‘.

    if I have to be anything, it’s a GodJesusHolySpiritian


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    elastigirl wrote:

    i’m so sick of my stupid religion

    It’s never really been about “religion” … it’s about relationship with the living God, rather than religious practice. Organized religion in American is so far off-track, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to locate the genuine remnant in the counterfeit cloth. Personally, I hope I live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached! As one TWW commenter posted in an earlier blog, religion in America is exhausting.


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    I will agree about pastors who live comfortably from other sources of income, until they start talking about being… telling us to be “radical” a la David Platt.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Warning to men: there are tell tell signs that can be more pronounced on men if one knows what to look for. It actually looks fake.

    That is simply not true! That is Kenneth Copeland’s (78 years young) natural hair color and face. His skin is supernaturally tightened through prayer time with his master. It is simply a coincidence that he looks more and more like Liberace with every passing year. Also, cryotherapy doesn’t count as plastic surgery and Michael Jackson wanted Kenneth to have his hyperbaric oxygen chamber to sleep in. Tell tell signs…..really


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    LT wrote:

    It is simply a coincidence that he looks more and more like Liberace with every passing year. ,

    Lol!


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    Max wrote:

    Of course, those are descriptors for aging charlatans. The young shepherds prefer tight pants, Spurgeon t-shirts, spiky hairdos, pointy beards, and Calvin tattoos.

    From Liberace to Hipster.


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    @ Lydia:
    You know, someone needs to tell men when they have their eyes done that women have the advantage of makeup to disguise those tell tell signs. Men end up looking like wide startled mannequins.


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    LT wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Warning to men: there are tell tell signs that can be more pronounced on men if one knows what to look for. It actually looks fake.

    That is simply not true! That is Kenneth Copeland’s (78 years young) natural hair color and face. His skin is supernaturally tightened through prayer time with his master. It is simply a coincidence that he looks more and more like Liberace with every passing year. Also, cryotherapy doesn’t count as plastic surgery and Michael Jackson wanted Kenneth to have his hyperbaric oxygen chamber to sleep in. Tell tell signs…..really

    Liberace…that’s funny…


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    Lydia wrote:

    Driscoll was desperately trying to rebrand himself toward the end as the wise uncle in a tweed jacket. You could practically hear his brand manager in the background it was so obvious.

    However, Wise Uncle in Tweed Jacket doesn’t work after 10-20 years of prep in Mickey Mouse T-Shirt, puka-shell necklace, Potty Mouth, and Willam Wallace II paper trail. Oh, and don’t forget the MMA Cage Fight Fanboy (“I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! ARMORBEARER! BEAT HIM UP!”)


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    You know, someone needs to tell men when they have their eyes done that women have the advantage of makeup to disguise those tell tell signs. Men end up looking like wide startled mannequins.

    They say Liberace had so many facelifts he was literally unable to close his eyes. Even when he slept.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    When you own the authoritarian bubble and can pay, no one will tell you those things. No one would tell the emperor he was naked. No one wants to be the first one to stop clapping after Stalin’s speech. :o)


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    LT wrote:

    In 2011 a copy of the highly secretive Capin Crouse study was divulged by Mars Hill staff. This is the study that sought to justify raising Mark Driscoll’s salary to $650,000 a year (plus $200,000 housing allowance and tens of thousands more in benefits and perks). Here is that study: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/11/20/mars-hill-church-2011-and-2012-executive-compensation-studies/
    Church Budget Church Attendance Senior Pastor’s Compensation
    1) $ 30,000,000 13,000 $ 1,000,000
    2) $ 35,000,000 7,500 $ 1,100,000
    3) $ 9,000,000 7,500 $ 429,518
    4) $ 53,700,000 17,000 $ 330,000
    5) $ 8,800,000 3,316 $ 325,000
    6) $ 16,700,000 8,500 $ 275,000
    7) $ 15,000,000 10,000 $ 265,000

    This was 5 years ago. Salaries for top senior pastors have doubled and tripled since 2011. #4 was Gateway. Another blogger confirmed that Robert Morris now makes over $1M per year just in GW salary and Robert says that his 7 figure salary is now determined by these salary studies. Robert first mentioned switching to the salary studies in 2013. There was a noticeable change in Gateway senior and executive pastors upgrading homes and cars around then.

    “Flee as you would the plague anyone who by becoming a cleric has become rich or from nobody has become a celebrity.”
    — St Jerome, around 1600 years ago

    “IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A MILLION DOLLARS, START YOUR OWN RELIGION.”
    — L RON HUBBARD, A FEW YEARS BEFORE HE FOUNDED SCIENTOLOGY

    (and even Furtick and Creflo have a ways to go before they can match Elron…)


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    LT wrote:

    This amount does not include his book royalties, his speaking fees and probably not his cut of the outrageously overpriced EC 7 day seminary – $2,500 tuition for a 7 day conference. But what really rustles my jimmies is the further concealment.

    Did you take Book Juicing expenses into account?
    (Going rate $210,000 per week on the NYT Best-Seller List. “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”)


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    Lydia wrote:

    Yet they pay no property tax on acres of prime land in wealthy zip codes.

    I do not believe this is being a good neighbor.

    Interesting, I was only thinking of the Feds. Recently our community changed local zoning that specifically made it harder for local churches to expand their properties. The church I am currently attending was one that actively worked against the measure that eventually passed. It certainly makes it harder to plead a case you shouldn’t receive special negative attention on zoning laws when you receive special status by not paying property taxes.
    I live in a community that contains many hostile to churches but I wonder how many have their hostility justified by the likes of Furtick, Driscoll, etc.


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    @ Stan:
    Young Platt gave up Radical for the six figure IMB job even though Brookhills did not support the CP.. Then he threw the over 50 career missionaries to the curb with a Godfather retirement deal all the while planning to add young missionaries. He has quite the bonafides in Foreign missions due to his time at the dangerous Dubai Marriott.

    It is amazing what passes for modeling leadership these days in the SBC.


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    Lydia wrote:

    At the very least, mega churches should have the same accountability as the typical non profit. The housing allowance is ridiculous.

    A big AMEN ! here Lyds. Why is it our lawmakers are unable to revamp the 501-c3 laws so that mega-biggies have to follow the same rules everybody else has to?

    And don’t get me started on the Chem teacher who got fired from a mega-biggie’s k-12 school in my area cuz’ she wouldn’t sign onto the head-honcho-pastor’s YEC belief statement. Apparently these mega-biggies skirt the labor laws whenever they feel like it too. True to form, she lost her appeal when the 9th circuit court ruled in favor of the mega-biggie.
    These mega-biggies enjoy the full benefits of a tax-supported infrastructure (water, power, roads, etc.) and yet they are allowed to decide which laws of the land they will follow and which they’ll flout.
    Religious freedom is a pillar in our society and rightly so, but I think it’s time to reassess what it is and what it is not.
    Rant over.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    A big AMEN ! here Lyds. Why is it our lawmakers are unable to revamp the 501-c3 laws so that mega-biggies have to follow the same rules everybody else has to?

    Because the law is a sacred cow and the lawmakers will get serious push back from the folks who benefit from the law. This in turn could cause the representative to lose his position? Back scratching at its finest 🙄


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Religious freedom is a pillar in our society and rightly so, but I think it’s time to reassess what it is and what it is not.

    It is not religious freedom it is religious privilege. And Mosques, Mormon Temples and others have it, too.

    There is a Mosque here that is fundraising to for a solid gold dome. Seriously. We have 6000 poor Muslim Somalis living in government housing but they want a solid gold dome for their new Mosque and Madrassah. Tax exempt. They assess my dwelling for taxes, how about yours?

    Another example of this are megas buying acres and acres of land in a high end zip code. They have hundreds of thousands of square feet of building space. They pay no property tax on any of it. I can only imagine what the assessments would be. They are not even public buildings like arenas, etc that take up similar space.

    I am all for private ownership what I am not for are special privileges on property taxes. Other citizens must pay their share for shared services while such churches rake in money and are tax exempt.

    All this took place while there were plenty of dying churches to buy if one wants to “expand”. But better to have people driving in from all over the city. But then, that got old so not to lose folks, they expand building into other places. Never believe mega attendance numbers. They all lie.

    The megas I am familiar with fought zoning suits and won. There are even tricks to get around certain things like planting so many trees per parking spaces in their massive parking lots.

    Our school district is metro and the taxes go to all the schools in the entire city not just that particular area. They are not even helping to pay for firefighters. They take up a ton of space that is really only occupied on weekends. But don’t go near there on weekends or you will be in traffic for an hour. (Nevermind Jesus is rarely to be found in the parking lot after church :o)

    We should not expect the judges to touch these things until local governments and the Feds change the laws.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Because the law is a sacred cow and the lawmakers will get serious push back from the folks who benefit from the law. This in turn could cause the representative to lose his position? Back scratching at its finest

    You will find this problem on both sides of the aisle. Both parties have voting blocks they bring in from church goers from the Jerry Falwells to the Al Sharptons.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    And don’t get me started on the Chem teacher who got fired from a mega-biggie’s k-12 school in my area cuz’ she wouldn’t sign onto the head-honcho-pastor’s YEC belief statement. Apparently these mega-biggies skirt the labor laws whenever they feel like it too. True to form, she lost her appeal when the 9th circuit court ruled in favor of the mega-biggie.

    Paige Patterson’s attorney argued that SWBTS operated as a church and won the discrimination suit Dr. Klouda filed when she was demoted from teaching Hebrew simply because she was a woman.

    Everyone should heed this: NEVER go to work for a religious organization. NEVER. You put your family’s financial well being into their hands and you have NO laws to protect you. NONE.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    If one wants quality pastoral care, then one ought to be prepared to pay for quality pastoral care. Personally, I think it would be foolish to have a mechanic do heart surgery on a loved one–even a well read mechanic–and similarly, I think it is foolish to have an engineer provide soul care without any professional training. That’s just me.

    You mention that one ought to pay for quality pastoral care, but your posts have never explained what you mean by quality pastoral care or how a congregation can determine whether they are receiving quality pastoral care. Can you please provide such a definition or explanation? I assume you have used pastoral care and soul care interchangeably.


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    @ Lydia:

    Don’t forget that the numerous hospitals, colleges and universities in your town are also eligible for tax exempt status.

    That said, I am not at all sure that I would want all that money in the hands of the government should it be that all these were taxed.

    I do think we should revamp our entire tax structure from the ground up of course. But we don’t want to got from bad to worse in doing so.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (and even Furtick and Creflo have a ways to go before they can match Elron…)

    HUG, I suspect since you appear to be the TWW expert on Scientology (and many other things) what is its teaching on the age of the universe and evolution?


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    The outrage about Furtick et al. is rightly placed in my opinion. But it obscures the reality most pastors and their families experience. I come from a family of elders and pastors. And I have seen plus my family has experienced the opposite end of abuse–i.e. from congregations not paying the pastor live-able wages.
    If I am not mistaken, the average salary for a pastor is less than $40K a year in the USA. That is less than most engineers make coming out of undergraduate. Many pastors have roughly twice as much education and are paid less than an engineer or a nurse for that matter. Do we value quality spiritual care so little?
    Personally, a fairer way to gauge compensation, in my opinion, is to consider what people with similar levels of education would be paid in one’s community. I was part of a church doing a new hire, and they decided publicly to pay the incoming pastor at the same level as a local junior faculty member at the university in that city. I thought that sounded fair to all parties, and it obviously has stuck with me as a good example of figuring out such things.

    Paul the tentmaker. Wow he needed another job to get by. God bless the ones who preach and teach the gospel not for gain but for the love of the Lord and a heart for the lost.

    I have also seen Pastors of small churches (30 people)that get money from a denomination require a salary of $5,000 a month plus benefitss.

    Even within the catholic church it’s only been recently that the Pope has gotten after some who went after the lucrative, money, power.


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    Joe2 wrote:

    You mention that one ought to pay for quality pastoral care

    Other than officiating at a family wedding, all the care I’ve ever received from the church was from friends, they did it gratis, friends wouldn’t do it any other way.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Don’t forget that the numerous hospitals, colleges and universities in your town are also eligible for tax exempt status.

    I am not forgetting. But I am making the point that if a seminary can demote a professor simply because she is a women (her evals were great. No problem before Patterson came as she WAS hired by the seminary) and churches can fire people with NO concern for any labor laws because they are exempt from them, then it is best not to work for them.

    I would like to see a non profit hospital try what I have seen some churches and seminaries do. I don’t think they could.

    It is not the tax exempt status. It is the kind of religious tax exempt status we are talking about.


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    BC wrote:

    Paul the tentmaker. Wow he needed another job to get by

    I have always wondered about this. If we go by the typical track of education for a guy like Paul, he must have learned tent making when he was converted. Perhaps when he was back in Tarsus? Acts makes it sound like he already knew tent making when he met up with Priscilla and Aquila. Anyone have any insight into this?


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    okrapod wrote:

    I do think we should revamp our entire tax structure from the ground up of course. But we don’t want to got from bad to worse in doing so.

    Let me assure you I am big time Libertarian. However, I have no problem with non profit tax exemption with a published 990. Churches are exempt. And we would probably not be having this conversation if not for the advent of mega churches. A few years ago, I was astounded to learn of the land owned by the Catholic Archdiocese in this city. They needed some money and were selling some of it off. Yes, some of it was land for hospitals but some of it had shopping centers and such. Vast tracks of it. I had no idea.


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    OldJohnJ wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    (and even Furtick and Creflo have a ways to go before they can match Elron…)
    HUG, I suspect since you appear to be the TWW expert on Scientology (and many other things) what is its teaching on the age of the universe and evolution?

    There are others far more experienced than me (ask Mirelle or check out Operation Clambake for my main sources), but Elron taught that humans evolved from clams — specifically, a clam called the “Weeper” or “Boohoo”. Then 75 million years ago, Xenu nuke-fried all those aliens in the volcanoes of Teegeeack (Earth) and brainwashed the resulting Thetans (remember South Park and “THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE”?) which then glommed onto the first ex-Boohoos to produce Body Thetans (which can only be removed through Scientology!)

    A lot of this was Elron’s conmanship, especially later on when he seemed to be playing “Can You Top This?” with himself to see if his followers would swallow it. (They did.) And eventually, Elron came to believe his own con. (The parallel to the Mega-Lead-Pastors and Head Apostles who end up profiled on Wartburg Watch is obvious. However, Elron’s mansion at Scientology Gold Base (finished after he “shed his body” and maintained in perfect condition for his reincarnation to return and take up residency — hi, Stan from South Park!) is said to make the Furtick Mansion look like a mud hut, and I don’t think Furtick’s plans called for gun emplacements around the perimeter. (Rumor has it Elron’s did.)


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    Lydia wrote:

    You will find this problem on both sides of the aisle. Both parties have voting blocks they bring in from church goers from the Jerry Falwells to the Al Sharptons.

    That’s what I meant.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Did you take Book Juicing expenses into account?
    (Going rate $210,000 per week on the NYT Best-Seller List. “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”)

    TBH I didn’t. That’s a great point and these expenses can be significant. However, I think most mega pastors operate like Mark Driscoll, where they arrange for all of the income from their book sales to go to them personally while they have many, if not most of the expenses paid for by their church. Mark and Grace Driscoll personally received the advance and royalties on the Real Marriage book while Mars Hill paid the $210,000 to Result Source to buy the NYTBA designation. The Driscolls then said they used the RM money to buy a $1.5M house under a secret trust name. The Result Source contract was also intended to be kept secret from MH staff and the sheep paying for it.

    This applies to all the expenses incurred for book juicing (great term!)hiring editors, illustrators and ghost writers, paying to produce high quality video trailers for the books, the extensive advertising budget and even certain travel expenses to other churches to promote their books, etc. The expense that really annoys me is when the book doesn’t sell well so the church “buys” thousands of copies and “gives” them away as a “free gift” effectively transferring more tithe money to individual pastors and falsely increasing their local sales. I am looking at a stack of such “free” unread books right now. It’s all about sneaky wealth transference. So I wouldn’t personally view those expenses as a reduction in monies received by a senior pastor since I doubt many pastors personally pay those expenses.

    I understand that there are some who think this is totally acceptable. I do expect such behavior from cut-throat corporate executives. But I still would like to see more transparency from men who present themselves to be God’s representatives on earth. Would God really rake in obscene amounts of wealth selling the gospel, then use secret trusts and other corporate structures to hide their total income from those paying it, then twist scripture to justify this?


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    danlinrm wrote:

    150 years ago Søren Kierkegaard spoke of our generation

    Yep, his words fit the times we are in: “As soon as the least bit of worldly advantage is gained by preaching or following Christ, then the fox is in the chicken house.”

    2000 years ago, Christ also spoke of today’s American church:

    “… I know your deeds, that you are neither cold (invigorating, refreshing) nor hot (healing, therapeutic); I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm (spiritually useless), and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth [rejecting you with disgust]. Because you say, “I am rich, and have prospered and grown wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked [without hope and in great need] …” (Revelation 3:14-22).


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    Bill M wrote:

    Joe2 wrote:
    You mention that one ought to pay for quality pastoral care
    Other than officiating at a family wedding, all the care I’ve ever received from the church was from friends, they did it gratis, friends wouldn’t do it any other way.

    And you got to wonder, how many of these guys ( clergy)would ” act” like a Christian, if there was not a paycheck involved?


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    LT wrote:

    Furtick’s house was purchased using a secret trust called ‘Jumper Drive Trust’ to keep members from knowing how much it cost. Furtick has a separate ministry business called Steven Furtick Ministries (SFM) https://stevenfurtick.com/. Most the other mega pastors have similar eponymous titled 501(c)3s. They need them to collect book royalties, accept donations and to exempt their large speaking fees from taxation. They record these 4 and 5 figure speaking fees as ‘love offerings’ or ‘contributions’ to make them tax free instead of calling them earned income, which they are. These 501(c)3 Form 990’s are one of the few ways you can check out how much your pastor is making on the side, because most pastors choose to put their name in the 501(c)3 to avoid looking sketchy to the churches and individuals writing them large checks. By using the name Steven Furtick Ministries SF accomplishes this sublimely.This way Furtick can pull out more cash in addition to his salary and parsonage allowance yet NO ONE can see how much via a Form 990. His BFF James Brett “Chunks” Corbett also has a nice side for-profit business called Corban Enterprises. As a for profit LLC, Chunks also never has to report his side income to the public. Like Jumper Drive, the name of Chunks’ LLC is meant to deceive members and conceal Corbett’s side income. The address for his Corban Enterprise? The Mathews EC Building. Corbett incorporated at that address back on 5-30-07 when he and Furtick were first setting up shop in Mathews. They’ve been scheming this stuff since back in Shelby.

    L.T., so much good info in your posts. This is the essence of what Furtick and Corbett have masterminded. It’s complicated, highly secretive and difficult to understand, but they are counting on just that. I think that this is so far above most heads that it shuts the conversation down most of the time, but it shouldn’t.

    Furtick and Corbett came up with the idea of buying and flipping houses in Shelby. Problem was it took work and they weren’t very good at it. They absolutely hit the ball out of the park when they came up with the idea of starting a church. Incredibly little oversight and cloaked in scripture. The average person at Elevation Church never realizes they’re taken year after year.

    Many of the staff have upgraded their homes (Corbett, Hubatka, Hogan, Brock, Joye to name a few) taking on much bigger mortgages. That makes them waaaay more loyal to Furtick. If Furtick can’t continue to fool people, they’re all in trouble. They know it and come out at crucial times to defend him.

    Another loyalty move is to employ couples. Now, all of their household income is dependent on Furtick. This is really scary to see.

    When Stuart Watson did his investigative reporting it changed some crucial elements at the “church”. For the first time, rudimentary financial statements were made public. Stuart is off on other adventures, so I think change is going to have to come from the attendees of the “church” or else people vote with their feet and take their money elsewhere.

    It’ll happen. People are only dumb for so long.

    Thanks for writing so in-depth, L.T.


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    “I contend that the church is essentially a company of Christian people formed around a central belief system as outlined in their statement of beliefs.”

    Why is it so important to you that other people believe certain things? Many religious groups define themselves according to other criteria, such as behavior or relationships–which means you don’t get kicked out of the community when you change your mind, or disagree with the others on something.

    “The one and only CEO is Jesus Christ, not the pastor.”

    Since when did he agree to be your CEO? It’s not like he’s around and available to be consulted (or at least, not in a way that we can all agree on). And it’s not like you’re prepared to blame him when something goes wrong.


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    LT wrote:

    sneaky trusts and misdirected named LLCs

    Oh! What a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!


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    Olivia wrote:

    LT wrote:

    It’ll happen. People are only dumb for so long.
    Thanks for writing so in-depth, L.T.

    This is why there is constant recruitment. There is always a new crop coming of age looking for a movement or group to join. As many leaving, new are coming in. It is a revolving door. This works in Megas. There is a reason these type of churches are mainly filled with people under 40.

    You don’t happen to know if Furtick received SBC church planting money, do you?


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    Lydia wrote:

    Let me assure you I am big time Libertarian.

    Cool Lyds, and I’m an old school FDR style Socialist.
    I bet we could argue politics like two Jews in TelAviv.
    L’Chaim !


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    Lydia wrote:

    You don’t happen to know if Furtick received SBC church planting money, do you?

    According to an article link at the end of this comment, “Elevation was planted with seed money from Southern Baptists.” The article pertains to Furtick’s use of volunteers for “Spontaneous Baptism Services.” It seems that he strategically plants folks in prominent areas, who respond immediately to Furtick’s calls for baptism with the intent of inspiring “spontaneous” baptisms of others … this emotional flurry of folks moving to the baptismal waters questions the genuineness of conversions at Elevation. The video attached to this post notes 10,000 baptisms in recent years – were they genuinely saved or a deceptive “elevation” of the baptism rate? On a related note: there is an SBC church plant near me where the reformed lead pastor occasionally posts on social media “Baptizing next Sunday. Sign up on Facebook!”

    http://www.wcnc.com/story/news/investigations/i-team/2014/07/04/11102082/


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    And once again Steven Furtick swoops in to embarrass the good city of Charlotte (where I am typing this from.) Steven claims it’s “arrogant” to reveal where his money’s going? No, Steve, it’s arrogant NOT to reveal that info. Honestly, with all the obfuscation with multiple 501(c)3’s and revocable trusts, not to mention the Furtick Estate held by one of those trusts, how is there any question at all that Elevation “Church” is anything but the Steven and Chunks And Co. Money Making Enterprise? It’s such an intricate web that it really does take much investigation and research to unravel it all. Clearly there’s something regarding Steven’s/Elevation’s finances that they don’t want the pewpeons to know. I’ll give you three guesses as to what it is, and the first two don’t count.

    And the idea of 100,000 people in Charlotte eventually falling for Steven’s antics and tight jeans really frightens and concerns me.


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    Lydia wrote:

    This is why there is constant recruitment. There is always a new crop coming of age looking for a movement or group to join. As many leaving, new are coming in. It is a revolving door. This works in Megas. There is a reason these type of churches are mainly filled with people under 40.

    You don’t happen to know if Furtick received SBC church planting money, do you?

    Max already confirmed that SBC supplied funds to Steven Furtick to plant Elevation Church and that is my recollection also. I don’t think they participate in the Cooperative Program, Lottie Moon or other SBC programs. Maybe someone else here knows for sure.

    At times, the calls to bring friends to church have been shrill. The latest campaign is called “Sit with Me”. I’d like to know what their churn rate is because it’s got to be high. That or maybe they just need to have a constant stream of new bodies to hopefully give money for the next building.


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    OldJohnJ wrote:

    HUG, I suspect since you appear to be the TWW expert on Scientology (and many other things) what is its teaching on the age of the universe and evolution?

    Someone posted Scientology’s myth of the fall (the story of Xenu). However, Scientology has lots and lots of “secret scriptures” in its Operating Thetan levels where Hubbard talked about various incidents. The one I remember specifically (because it was so outrageous and colorful) was the “Gorilla Goals.” Wikipedia recounts it as follows:

    According to Scientology, the Gorilla Goals were a series of implants created by invaders from Helatrobus “between about 319 trillion[1] years ago to about 256 trillion trillion[16] years ago”.

    Hubbard state the Gorilla Goals were

    given in an amusement park with a single tunnel, a roller coaster and a Ferris wheel…. The symbol of a Gorilla was always present in the place the goal was given. Sometimes a large gorilla, black, was seen elsewhere than the park. A mechanical or a live gorilla was always seen in the park. This activity was conducted by the Hoipolloi, a group of operators in meat body societies. They were typical carnival people. They let out concessions for these implant “Amusement Parks.” A pink-striped white shirt with sleeve garters was the uniform of the Hoipolloi. Such a figure often rode on the roller coaster cars. Monkeys were also used on the cars. Elephants sometimes formed part of the equipment.[17]

    More at the link, but Hubbard had a grandiose idea about the age of the universe, as you can see here.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_(Scientology)


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    K.D. wrote:

    And you got to wonder, how many of these guys ( clergy)would ” act” like a Christian, if there was not a paycheck involved?

    In similar fashion I’ve heard at least two people say they would not fund a missionary because the person had no outreach prior to going out into the field. Was the gifting only supposed to appear when they became “professional”?


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    And the idea of 100,000 people in Charlotte eventually falling for Steven’s antics and tight jeans really frightens and concerns me.

    “Today Charlotte, TOMORROW THE WORLD!”?


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    mirele wrote:

    More at the link, but Hubbard had a grandiose idea about the age of the universe, as you can see here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_(Scientology)

    Looks like Elron was "drinking lots of Scotch and popping lots of pink and blue pills" with that one. Remember what I said above <b>—</b> about Elron being a con man who kept playing "Can You Top This?/Let's see if they'll swallow this one" and then ended up believing his own con?

    This activity was conducted by the Hoipolloi, a group of operators in meat body societies. They were typical carnival people. They let out concessions for these implant “Amusement Parks.” A pink-striped white shirt with sleeve garters was the uniform of the Hoipolloi.

    "Operators in meat body societies"? It's Flim & Flam, the conpony unicorns from My Little Pony! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se-V_NPiW1g

    <b>MOD: inappropriate commentary deleted</b>


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    Olivia wrote:

    At times, the calls to bring friends to church have been shrill. The latest campaign is called “Sit with Me”.

    “BUTTS IN SEATS! BUTTS IN SEATS! TITHE TITHE TITHE! TITHE TITHE TITHE!”

    Furtick Mansions are expensive.


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    Max wrote:

    According to an article link at the end of this comment, “Elevation was planted with seed money from Southern Baptists.” The article pertains to Furtick’s use of volunteers for “Spontaneous Baptism Services.”

    Not “volunteers”.

    The word is SHILLS.

    Just as spontaneous as Party Commissar for Spontaneous People’s Demonstrations.


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    No, Steve, it’s arrogant NOT to reveal that info. Honestly, with all the obfuscation with multiple 501(c)3’s and revocable trusts, not to mention the Furtick Estate held by one of those trusts, how is there any question at all that Elevation “Church” is anything but the Steven and Chunks And Co. Money Making Enterprise? It’s such an intricate web that it really does take much investigation and research to unravel it all.

    (I keep going back to this because it's such a good fit.) From the writer who came up with the abovementioned conponies Flim & Flam <b>—</b>. A foolish thing to confound the wise, out of the mouths of cartoon ponies: "They are villains, but they are designed to be charming and entertaining. They speak very quickly. They finish each others' sentences. They're in constant motion. Everything they do is designed to dazzle and confuse people, so they can shake your hand while they're stealing your wallet."

    <b>MOD: Inappropriate commentary deleted.</b>


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    Olivia wrote:

    The latest campaign is called “Sit with Me”

    I have seen some doozies in my time. One mega gave out cardboard people cut outs. One was to write the name of a person they would bring on the specified date. Then the cutout was thrown into a large fenced off area in the football field sized foyer. People get into this stuff. It’s all for Jesus.


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    @ Max:
    Oh my word! The SBC has funded so much madness and cruelty.


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    Max wrote:

    ? On a related note: there is an SBC church plant near me where the reformed lead pastor occasionally posts on social media “Baptizing next Sunday. Sign up on Facebook!”

    Don’t worry Max, they will only sign up on Facebook if they are elect. Hee hee


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Oi vey. That is my idea of a good time!


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    __

    Q. “What Is The Gospel ?”

    The good news of the gospel begins with Jesus!

       God planned for the bringing of Kind Folk, who are far from Himself back into a right relationship with God. 

    Because of this, God sent His Son to the earth.

    He lived a perfect life so that He could be a substitution for us in satisfying God’s demands for perfection. 

    Jesus defeated death in His resurrection so that we can have life.

    Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 14:33; 16:16; 28:5-6; Luke 22:70; 24:46-47; John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 11:25-27; 17:1-5; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 8:1-3; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; Gal 4:4-5; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15; 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16

    Man was created to exist forever. 

    Yes, He will exist either eternally separated from God by sin or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation. 

    Yet, to be eternally separated from God is Hell. 

    But most importantly, to be eternally in union with Him is Heaven. 

    Heaven and Hell are very real places of eternal existence.
    John 3:16, 36; Romans 6:23; 1 John 2:25; 5:11-13; Revelation 20:15

    Man is made in the image of God and is the supreme object of His creation. 

    Man was created to have fellowship with God.

    But Man became separated in that relationship through sinful disobedience. 

    As a result, man cannot attain a right relationship with God through his own effort. 
     
    Genesis 1:26-30; 2:7, 18-22; 3; Psalms 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18, 23; 5:6; 6:6; 7:14-25; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19, 21-22; Ephesians 2; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11
     
    The blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the only way of salvation through the forgiveness of sin. 

    Salvation occurs when Kind Folks like you, place their faith in the death and resurrection of Christ as sufficient payment for their sin. 
    Isaiah 1:18; 53:5-6; 55:7; Matthew 1:21; 27:22-66, 28:1-6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:12; 3:16, 36; 5:24; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 16:30-31; Romans 1:16-18; 3:23-25; 5:8-10; 6; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 2:12-13; Hebrews 9:24-28; Revelation 3:20

    “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”
    2 Corinthians 5:17

      If you have accepted Jesus Christ through any of our various ministry efforts, congradulations, we would like to hear from you! 

    We’re so excited about your decision to accept Christ!

    We’d love to provide you with some additional resources to help you grow in your faith, and a special gift to commemorate your decision. 

    Also, we’d love to hear how God’s been working in your life. 

    http://elevationchurch.org/accepting-jesus/

    Please let us know about your wonderful decision to receive Christ. 

    Your story is very important to us. 

    –From all of us at Elevation Church,

    Steven Furtick


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Olivia wrote:
    At times, the calls to bring friends to church have been shrill. The latest campaign is called “Sit with Me”.
    “BUTTS IN SEATS! BUTTS IN SEATS! TITHE TITHE TITHE! TITHE TITHE TITHE!”
    Furtick Mansions are expensive.

    That’s the mantra of all the SBC today…..has nothing to do with Jesus….


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    God has called us to tithe back to the local church. It’s a scriptural, foundational principle found throughout the Bible

    Tithing to the local church isn’t found in the bible at all.

    There is the OT system which was up to a point the equivalent of a taxation system, and like all taxation systems was not voluntary.

    Then there is the NT system of systematically giving on a regular basis, the amount of which is never specified and is within the believer’s discretion.

    He who oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to want.

    Hence tithing to a local church, depending on what the money is then used for, could in fact if not actually sinning, be an act of folly.


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    @ mirele:
    Also HUG and Zla’od,

    Thanks for the entertaining references on scientology. At the other end of the spectrum is the satirical CoFSM (Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org ) where YEC, Intelligent Design and “but think of cults, or churches where the leaders are scamming their followers out of money” are also opposed. The last item makes this comment relevant to the current post. At least the CoFSM doesn’t take itself too seriously.


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    Lydia wrote:

    they will only sign up on Facebook if they are elect

    I remember the SBC of old where lots of folks were “elected” in the red hot fire of revival! The denomination is not experiencing such a move of God now because it appears to be satisfied to live without it. Cool church is in … evangelism is out … no room for old fuddy duddies like me. Even in “traditional” churches, the folks that know better are sitting on the premises, but not standing on the promises … you can’t get them to move, pray, shout, or anything! Apathy and apostasy has settled over a once-great people of God.

    P.S. Another thing about the SBC church plant mentioned … in addition to signing up on Facebook for baptism (like it was the lottery or something), I once heard the young pastor treat a communion service with irreverence in which he instructed his flock that cheap grape juice and crackers from Walmart were available on the way out. They laugh and exit. I’ll be glad when his tribe is on the way out!


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    Oh my word! The SBC has funded so much madness and cruelty.

    And now that everyone knows theater the IMB is i


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    AnonInNC wrote:

    Honestly, with all the obfuscation with multiple 501(c)3’s and revocable trusts, not to mention the Furtick Estate held by one of those trusts, how is there any question at all that Elevation “Church” is anything but the Steven and Chunks And Co. Money Making Enterprise? It’s such an intricate web that it really does take much investigation and research to unravel it all.

    Again, the description of Flim & Flam:

    “They speak very quickly. They finish each others’ sentences. They’re in constant motion. Everything they do is designed to dazzle and confuse people, so they can shake your hand while they’re stealing your wallet.”


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    Oh my word! The SBC has funded so much madness and cruelty.

    And now that everyone know that the IBM is in a financial mess, the SBC is screaming “BE SACRIFICIAL! OPEN YOUR WALLETS AND GIVE US MORE!”


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    @ Nancy2:
    Not one penny, if folks are wise.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    Oh my word! The SBC has funded so much madness and cruelty.

    Just like a Roman Circus.
    “Let the Games Begin!”


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    Not one penny, if folks are wise.

    They haven’t been in the past, why should they wise up now?

    “When coin in Furtick’s Coffer rings,
    Then your soul to Heaven springs!”


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    Folks I feel as though we need to examine our little buddy Steven’s big deflection in this interview. He says “I am not gonna talk about my salary because bible tells me not too.. so there”. Unfortunately the verse he uses is completely out of context. Scripture does tell us to keep our giving private… we aren’t asking about that. We are asking about how much you make from the tax-exempt racket called Elevation Church Inc. We don’t care a lick about your giving cause you aren’t going to “out give” the compensation that allows you to keep the lights on and maids cleaning in your 16000 sq ft house. Sure is a good racket though when Steven talks to Ed Young in Dallas (another airplane flying, multi-million dollar house buying, spanks wearing jesus dude) and the two golf buddies figure out how much money they wanna get paid over steaks at Mortons.

    I gave up giving to the church long ago because I haven’t yet run into one that was completely transparent about the way they handle their money and I am of the opinion that these churcherations shouldn’t be tax exempt either unless they disclose and submit to congregational governance of their salaries. In addition beware of charities like Samaritans purse that pays their “CEO” 900k a year before benefits to run the org. Clearly the concept of “non-profit has been perverted in the US to mean “get as much non-tax profit as possible”.


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    Olivia wrote:

    SBC supplied funds to Steven Furtick to plant Elevation Church … I don’t think they participate in the Cooperative Program, Lottie Moon or other SBC programs. Maybe someone else here knows for sure.

    That is a good question. Like most of the cool church plants (with funky names) in SBC today – established with SBC funds – there is no clear indication that they are affiliated with SBC! I couldn’t find that link on the Elevation website. The financial statement posted on their site for 2014 is not detailed enough to show distributions to SBC programs, if there are any.

    Speaking of “cool”, I suspect that the crowd of thousands in their 20s-30s were drawn to Elevation’s music, rather than the message. The messenger is certainly entertaining … but the beat of drums, deafening whine of electric guitars, and gyrating singers is surely pulling them in. Forget what Furtick makes, Elevation better be paying the “worship” leader well! Smart young pastors with mega-church in mind know to get a good band right out of the chute … it’s in the recipe for success.


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    @ Sopwith:
    Sound doctrine I believe as baptist Christian. Are ancillary issues such as financial transparency and the other issues brought up by WWW of no concern? I don’t know and am trying to decide?


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    @ Max:
    I fear supporting SBC programs such as cooperative program and Lottie Moon and other programs is less of a concern since “conservative” resurgence.


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    I believe a pedophile shielding at Elevation Church was concerning to WWW in past blogs?


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    Mark wrote:

    I fear supporting SBC programs such as cooperative program and Lottie Moon and other programs is less of a concern since “conservative” resurgence.

    Traditional Southern Baptists are just now waking up to the fact that the “Conservative” Resurgence was really a “Calvinist” Resurgence. After the liberals and moderates were routed from the denomination, a New Calvinist army of young, restless and reformed (YRR) found a way to penetrate SBC ranks under the guidance of General Mohler and his lieutenants. Cooperative Program funds and the annual Annie Armstrong offering is funneling $60 million this year to SBC’s North American Mission Board’s church planting program … to plant 1,000 new churches in 2015 – which are predominantly staffed by YRR. As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I know look at those Annie Armstrong envelopes in the pew with sadness. I’m certainly not opposed to planting churches, but the aggressive New Calvinist movement is more about planting theology contrary to SBC’s mainline belief and practice.


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    @ Joe2:

    Quality “pastoral care” or “soul care” can be rated in multiple ways.

    Standard gates or evaluative ways to somewhat weed out the poor providers includes having an M.Div. from a reputable seminary/divinity school. Having a unit or more of Clinical Pastoral Education (CPE) is a good thing as well in assessing a pastor’s ability to provide quality care. I happen to be a Board Certified Chaplain (BCC) through the Association of Professional Chaplains (BCCI affiliate to be precised) having to have met professional standards as well as having over 8 years of post-graduate education.

    All of such training and experience is costly. If a congregation does not care whether or not their pastor is properly trained, then it ought not be too terribly surprising when that lack of training and experience shows in teaching and leadership. True, seminary and CPE are not fool-proof ways to weed out the poor pastoral care providers. Yet, they ought to alert the pastor to common historical errors as well as hopefully encourage self-awareness–a VERY important part of providing quality pastoral care.

    I could go on…but I think you get the point.


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    Also, I would add that a pastor could not be hired by the US federal government without an undergraduate degree and seminary education plus pastoral experience and an endorser who is supposed to keep him/her accountable to their faith tradition and values. The government pays well for such training and experience realizing such isn’t cheap.


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    Furtick says that to disclose how much he GIVES is in violation of what Christ said about keeping that a secret. He’s right about that, but no one is asking what he GIVES, they want to know how much he TAKES, and there is no Biblical prohibition against that. In fact, it is contrary to Biblical teaching to give when you are not told where your money goes. We are stewards of what God gives us, and to give to someone who demands it, but doesn’t tell you how it will be spent, is to violate that stewardship. I attend a small Congregational Church, and every January, we are presented with the detailed budget to approve for the following year. It details the salaries of our small staff, and we all approve (or not, but that has never happened yet) those details. We KNOW where our money is going, because we are responsible for it.


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    Mark wrote:

    I believe a pedophile shielding at Elevation Church was concerning to WWW in past blogs?


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    I posted by mistake above, please feel free to remove it.


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    @ Divorce Minister:

    You write…
    “…I would just like to point that *Scripture is very clear*
    that pastors/elders ought to be respected and *paid well* (see I Timothy 5:17-18).”
    ———-

    Here is someone who found Scripture saying something quite different.
    Here is a young pastor who resigned from being a salaried pastor because…

    “Not only did I find no evidence for salaried pastors,
    **I didn’t find any evidence for modern pastors at all.**”
    ———-

    “I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring – four years later”
    http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-i-resigned-from-professional.html

    “I wanted to find out whether or not pastors in the bible received salaries. Well, I found a lot more than I was looking for. Not only did I find no evidence for salaried pastors, **I didn’t find any evidence for modern pastors at all.** Beyond that, what I saw of the church in the New Testament was drastically different from the institutional churches of today. All these findings sent me into a bit of a crisis.”…

    “…After seeing all this, I couldn’t remain a salaried pastor. After several months of study, prayer, and struggle, I decided that I simply had to resign. I could not in good conscience continue to either receive a salary or continue to be a modern day pastor. **There just isn’t any biblical basis for either.**”

    —————–

    Seems the only one in the Scripture with the “Title/Position”
    Shepherd/Leader/Reverend…

    IS…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}


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    @ Divorce Minister:

    You write…
    “…I would just like to point that *Scripture is very clear*
    that pastors/elders ought to be respected and *paid well* (see I Timothy 5:17-18).”

    ”If one wants quality pastoral care,
    then one ought to be prepared to pay for quality pastoral care.”
    ———-

    Sorry, but, pastors being paid well, Is NOT clear at all in scripture.
    In 1 Tim 5:7-18, the reference you gave, there is NO mention of pastors.
    If *Scripture is very clear* would there be a need to ADD the word “pastors?”
    And, I find nothing, in the Scripture, about “pastoral care.”

    And, Scripture is diffinitly NOT clear whether elders in the Bible…
    Are like today’s, Hired, pastors.

    Are ALL elders today, in the 501 c 3, Tax Deductible, IRS Corporations, “Paid” pastors?

    Haven’t you ever wondered why? In the Bible?
    NOT one elder, NOT one of His Disciples, took the “Title” shepherd/leader/reverend?
    NOT one elder, NOT one of His Disciples, called them self, shepherd/leader/reverend?
    NOT one elder, NOT one of His Disciples, was Hired, as a shepherd/leader/reverend?

    Haven’t you wondered why? In the Bible? NOT one of His Disciples, became a…
    Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit, Preaching, to People, in Pews?

    NOPE – Todays “Titled,” pastor/leader/reverend, and what they get “Paid” to do…
    Does NOT exist in the Bible.

    Now, if some want to get “Paid” as a “Titled,” professional pastor – that’s their ”business.”

    But, Please, – Do NOT say…
    “*Scripture is very clear* that pastors/elders ought to be respected and *paid well*”

    That is NOT accurate. That is NOT in the Scripture.
    ———-

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}


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     __

    “These Are Da Dayz When Anything Goes?”

    hmmm…

    My House is Full Of Lies…

    huh?

    b>Mark,

    hey,

    Your widdle question brings a ting of proverbial fained ignorance to TWW, huh? 

    What?

    You might wannna re-visit the minor leagues fella, huh?

    (…itz safer.)

    -snicker-

    “…And Jesus said to me ( His Apostle John) , “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.” “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done…” -Jesus

    hum, hum, hum… I’m gonna soak up da Son…
    gonna tell every one to lighten up,
    I’m gonna tell um, I’ve got no one  but myself to blame, 
    every time I feel so spititually ‘lame’…
    I’m simply lòòkin at da wrong stuff… 
    I’ve been down this road more than twice…

    *
    “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned… – Jesus

    Whoa !

    Preachin da ‘Great Commission’ needs no  ‘library card’ ™ …

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    …’every day is a winding road’ ? I get a little closer…to da Son who’s love shines on all of us…

    …and feeling fine,

    All the best!  🙂

    Sopy


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    Quality “pastoral care” or “soul care” can be rated in multiple ways.

    The credentials you mentioned are required for employment in a hospital setting or a prison and not for the local church.


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    Joe2 wrote:

    The credentials you mentioned are required for employment in a hospital setting or a prison and not for the local church.

    Some denominations have requirements about education and experience and some apparently do not.


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    @ Joe2:

    True. I am just stating one way pastors COULD be vetted. Some denominations require these things as well as okrapod states. It is costly but valuable to have such training. The pay ought to cover the cost for proper training, imo.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    True. I am just stating one way pastors COULD be vetted. Some denominations require these things as well as okrapod states. It is costly but valuable to have such training. The pay ought to cover the cost for proper training, imo.

    Teacher pay does not cover the cost of education requirements that are mandatory.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    @ Joe2:
    True. I am just stating one way pastors COULD be vetted. Some denominations require these things as well as okrapod states. It is costly but valuable to have such training. The pay ought to cover the cost for proper training, imo.

    Isn’t the vetting in scripture dependant on character not education? There are many, many, educated pastors which I would not want to be overseeing any Christian group. They have been educated to think a certain way that is anti-gospel as I see it.


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    Another profession with public salary information is elected official like me. Perhaps the pastor a congregation can be analogized to that type of position, since the congregation is part of a Kingdom.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:
    True. I am just stating one way pastors COULD be vetted. Some denominations require these things as well as okrapod states. It is costly but valuable to have such training. The pay ought to cover the cost for proper training, imo.
    Teacher pay does not cover the cost of education requirements that are mandatory.

    Agreed. But teachers ought to be paid for their training and some are just as some pastors are.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Isn’t the vetting in scripture dependant on character not education? There are many, many, educated pastors which I would not want to be overseeing any Christian group. They have been educated to think a certain way that is anti-gospel as I see it.

    I do not see it as an either/or. You need both to be qualified as a pastor/elder as I read Scripture. I Timothy 3:2 lists “able to teach” (NIV) as a requirement as well. Usually, we education of some sort is needed to develop that ability.

    That said, seminary is not a fool-proof way to weed out the bad pastors either. It takes discernment…and yes, an eye to character. I just suggest that seminaries were founded historically to address these concerns–need for qualified and able pastors–for a reason.


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    Divorce Minister wrote:

    teachers ought to be paid for their training and some are just as some pastors are

    Yes. Some recent changes in my state have changed the system except for those who were already under the old system, but the educator in my family is under a system which pays more salary for more education-provided that education is applicable to the job. And there is a gracious plenty required continuing ed which is free or almost free.


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    Why would a church want a pastor who would work for little or no pay? If he did that it would mean that he either had an inheritance, or was bi-vocational and therefore had limited time for the church, or else his wife was supporting the family, or else he had no family or home and lived out of his car. So this is how a christian man is supposed to act as a responsible adult? This is an example to be followed? Not in this culture where we don’t respect that.


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    @ okrapod:

    That’s what his second job is for 😉

    (I call that abuse if it is expected of the pastor as opposed to gifted by the pastor willingly to the congregation.)


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    okrapod wrote:

    Why would a church want a pastor who would work for little or no pay?

    From my perspective, which is probably different than yours, so that the entire body is functioning as a body of believers and there is not one person doing all the functioning. One, or a few, doing all the doing helps promote the issue we often discuss here; the pastor ends up being the CEO of a church.


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    Hmmm?

    “Why would a church want a pastor who would work for little or no pay?”

    Well, isn’t Jesus, who refers to Himself as…
    The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader – The “ONE” Shepherd – For His Disciples…
    Willing to work for “no pay?” 🙂

    ————

    Jesus, when teaching His Disciples, refers to Himself as – The “ONE” Teacher.
    And, WE, His Sheep, His Ekklsia, are ALL brethren.

    Mat 23:8 NKJV
    But you, do NOT be called ‘Rabbi’;
    for “ONE” is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

    ————

    Jesus, when teaching His Disciples, refers to Himself as – The “ONE” Leader.
    And, the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    ————

    Jesus, when teaching His Disciples, refers to Himself as “The “ONE” Shepherd.
    Seems, the only “ONE” in the scriptures with the “Title” Shepherd is {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Teacher – One Leader – One Shepherd

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}


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    roebuck wrote:

    Furtick makes me want to throw up. How does he dare call himself a Christian? How does his congregation put up with his disgusting nonsense? I will never understand how these clowns get the positions that they do (Driscoll, MacDonald, and the rest of their ilk).

    At the end of the day, the people need to grow some discernment, or these serpents (no offense meant to all good snakes) will continue to thrive.

    Amen!

    [PS: There are no good snakes. They may do some useful things but a snake is a snake is a snake is a–varmint!!]


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    roebuck wrote:

    Friend wrote:

    Furtick’s clothing and movements amp up the showmanship and scream narcissism. This hunk o’ man o’ Gawd strides, leaps, and prances around in an endless succession of teen-casual pants so tight they look sprayed on. The poor hapless worshiper has a duty to look at the preacher, and the preacher is selling his own sex appeal, along with that onion-in-the-hanky sincere emotion.
    OK. I’m calling him the Hanky Hunk.

    If there were any doubts about this creep’s narcissism, consider the fact that there is an official ‘Pastor Steve’ coloring book handed out to the kiddies in the Sunday School. I wish I was kidding, I really do.

    I seriously need a puking smiley right now. No other way to express my disgust at this kind of 3-day-old carp.