Dedicated to Elevation Church: “Shun, as you would the plague, a cleric who from being poor has become wealthy, or who, from being nobody has become a celebrity.” —Jerome
The infamous compensation committee
Furtick, along with his buddy, the erstwhile "Chunks," refuse to tell you, their church contributors, including the leadership, how much money Furtick (and probably "Chunks" as well) is paid by Elevation. Furtick claims to be overseen by an "appointed" group of mega church pals to set his salary and benefits. I guess only those who labor daily in the fruitful vineyards are capable of understanding the intricacies of pastor wealth acquisition and how it is tied to the gospel.
One would assume that Furtick would go to great lengths to have some folks on the committee who are not "raking it in." That does not seem to be the case.
TWW has expressed concern about the theology of John Piper. However, in this area, he demonstrates great restraint. There is no doubt that he is one of the most prolific writers of modern times, a regular conference speaker and the lead pastor, for years, of Bethlehem Baptist Church. However, he lives in his original home in a decidedly non-tony area of Minneapolis and eats at the same modest restaurant each week. He gives all of the proceeds of this books back to the church. Rumor has it that his salary is $100,000 range. Think about this when you compare the lifestyles of Furtick and his BFFs.
So who are these guys?
- Ed Young Jr: Fellowship Church, Dallas/Grapevine, TX
- Perry Noble: NewSpring Church, Anderson, SC
- Stovall Weems : Celebration Church, Jacksonville, FL
- Kevin Gerald : Champions Center, Seattle, WA
- Jack Graham Prestonwood Baptist, Dallas/Plano,TX
Why Is Dee, rolling on the floor, laughing at the makeup of Furtick's compensation committee? Watch this clip from Stuart Watson, WCNC.
Let's look at two of these guys.
Ed Young Jr.
Elevation Church members, it is important to know that Dee, too, has been bamboozled. You are not alone. You see, I was member of Fellowship Church when it was called The Fellowship of Las Colinas. On October 31, 1991, I went trick or treating with Ed Young Jr.and our kids. We were neighbors, back in the day when Ed lived in a 3500 sq.ft. house. However, over time, I realized that I was tricked into giving money to the church and Ed was getting the treats. But, thankfully, my husband and I finally cut our losses, admitted our stupidity and ran to a wonderful church which made a major difference in our lives.
Ed Young Jr has been the subject of media investigations for his self indulgent lifestyle. Brett Shipp, an excellent investigative reporter for WFAA in Dallas, uncovered Ed and Lisa's life of luxury link. See if you can spot the similarities in the stories of Ed and Steve.
News 8 has also learned that Young's 10,000 square foot, $1.5 million estate on Lake Grapevine is not listed on the tax rolls in his name, but rather in the name of "Palometa Revocable Trust."
Records show that Young was paid $240,000 a year as a parsonage allowance; that's in addition what sources say is a $1 million yearly pastor's salary.
Young declined to discuss his salary and compensation with News 8, but his spokesman said the pastor's pay "is governed without his participation by an Independent Compensation Committee, relying on outside consultation with knowledgeable and experienced church leaders."
News 8 has also learned that in 2007, Young sold the intellectual property of Fellowship Church's marketing Web site, CreativePastors. He also sold the church's membership mailing list to a newly-formed, for-profit company called EY Publishing.
Today, CreativePastors.com is used by the Youngs to sell his sermons and books for profit.
You might enjoy Ed showing off his @$10,000 espresso machine in his mansion here. (Scroll to the second video-the first was done in his "modest" first house.) What an example of humility and sacrifice! Ask yourself: Is this the guy you want giving away your money to his buddy? You can read more about his antics here, here, and here. There is plenty more where that came from. Just Google it.
Furtick has said that Ed Young Jr. gave him a vision of what the local church can be. The question is "What is the vision, who pays for it and who benefits from it?" Ed sure did really well for himself with his vision.
Perry Noble
Perry Noble's church was involved in one of the most despicable stories that I have ever read and I have read a whole lot. It involved a blogger, Dr James Duncan, Associate Professor of Communication at Anderson University, who prevailed in a lawsuit against NewSpring Church. Tom Rich, of FBC Jax Watchdogs reported on this here, here and here. That last link brings you to the Pajama Pages, the blog of Dr. Duncan in which he outlines the whole, sordid affair. I urge you, church contributor, to read the entire post and see if you can sleep well while knowing that Perry Noble is advising your pastor and allocating your money.
Here are a couple of excerpts. One involves Furtick.
…What did Duncan get for his criticism? In 2009 Noble's employees and volunteers smeared Duncan's reputation by starting a phony Twitter account with gross and profane sexual posts attributed to Dr. Duncan, a fake resignation letter to his employer, and perhaps worst of all, sabotage of Dr. Duncan's adoption efforts in 2009. You can read all about these here.
Thankfully, Dr. Duncan fought back. It is not an easy process to fight a powerful church and pastor for the harm they have done to your reputation, but Dr. Duncan fought back by filing a lawsuit against Noble and NewSpring. Since December 2009, Dr. Duncan's blog has been silent as he has fought the difficult legal battle
…
Maxwell repeatedly mentioned my family in his twitter posts in a way that felt like we were being aggressively stalked. He identified by wife and son by name, and even correctly revealed my son’s age and the location of his school. He also correctly described the make and model of our cars, and described journeys my wife took in our minivan.The tweets include vile descriptions of my wife’s sexual behaviors and anatomy (you’ll excuse me, I hope, if I don’t quote those ones). When Steven Furtick preached a series on cow tipping, Maxwell invited him to come and tip my wife over. Maxwell repeatedly described my son as abused and someone who wore women’s underwear around the house. He seemed to enjoy threatening me, warning me that I could “only shelter a child for so long.” One post seemed to promise vandalism against my home:
Oh yeah, Perry also blames homosexuality on non-tithing Christians link, showing a profound lack of Biblical, and medical, knowledge.
In the interests of time, I will not review the other three. However, they all preside over mega-churches and all of them live very, very well. Ask the question. What in the world is Furtick learning from these guys? Why them and not a Wade Burleson or David Platt?
Are these guys serving out of the goodness of their hearts, hoping to advance the kingdom of God by righteously utilizing the tithes of the good people of Elevation?
Do the committee members benefit from being on this committee? Yep. And will you, the contributor, be allowed to know how or how much? Short answer: Nope.
From Stuart Watson WCNC, link, who did a yeoman's job sifting through Christian celebrity culture:
Furtick recruited a so-called “board of overseers” to set his salary. The board is made up entirely of other megachurch pastors, just like him. Smith said to him, the board looks like a paper tiger. “The financial well being of those guys are intimately intertwined.”
That means Furtick agrees to pay them to preach at Elevation, and they pay him to preach at their conferences or megachurches. “They attend each other’s conferences and are compensation for that regularly,” said Smith. When Furtick held his Code Orange Revival last year, three of the headliners, pastors Stovall Weems of Jacksonville, Fla., Perry Noble of Anderson, S.C., and Kevin Gerald of Seattle, were all board members at Elevation. Those are three of the five votes that set Furtick’s salary.
Executive pastor James “Chunks” Corbett told NBC Charlotte that pastors get paid for appearances at Elevation Church, but said the pay is “small in scope,” and he won’t disclose the amounts.
Let's review this. These guys get paid to preach at Elevation and Elevation related conferences. Where does that money come from? From you, dear contributor. But, you cannot be told how much they get paid. Ask the questions. Why on earth not? What are they afraid of?
While you are at it, consider the following. What sort of life did the apostles lead? Remember, under their guidance, the church went from a tiny sect to a force to be reckoned with. Did the apostles get what they deserved? All of them died martyrs, except for John who was imprisoned on the island of Patmos. What happened to their followers? Many died horrible deaths, serving as human torches for Nero's garden parties.
The example of the apostles and the early church in no way demonstrates that a pastor, who presides over a growing church, should become wealthy and venerated. Kind of a bummer, isn't it? It's a really different outome than the American Dream. And Steven Furtick feels prevailed upon because a reporter is looking at his "not so great" house? I wonder if he would have had the chops to stand up to real persecution in the Coliseum?
Finally, it appears that Furtick has become quite friendly with another one of these pastor "in-clubs." It is called ARC (Association of Related Churches). TWW has been contacted by some folks asking us to look into the lifestyles of some of the pastors associated with this group.
These three videos are illuminating when viewed in the context of this post. TWW hopes that serious Christian will consider giving their hard earned money to Christian groups that really, really need it. Ask these questions. If Elevation has given $10 million to the community during its existence, how much did it keep and what was it used for? What percentage of the entire giving was the $10 million? Was it really that impressive? I am also curious how much Chunks is being compensated for his role in "face the press."
Steven approves a lot of stuff.
Perry Noble discussing greedy Christians (It's not about him).
Perry Noble's "Parable of the Greedy Christian and His Disappearing Skittles" from FBC Jax Watchdog on Vimeo.
Look at the guy (Ed Young) who is "advising" Elevation on how much to pay Steven Furtick.This is Deb's favorite video. Note the $ necklace.
Lydia's Corner: Job 28:1-30:31 2 Corinthians 2:12-17 Psalm 42:1-11 Proverbs 22:7
I am so tired of hearing about how much money Elevation Church as given. In the Kingdom of God, it is not the amount you give that is counted in God’s bookkeeping, but the amount you keep for yourself. I’m glad they gave 10 million. I’m sure it helped. I wonder percentage wise, how much they kept for themselves. You know, there were lots of rich people making large donations to the temple as well in Mark 12, and only the widow with a penny was commended because she gave 100%. I’m guessing Elevation did not give 100%. Oh, and by the way, it is no coincidence that the very next passage is Jesus condemning and judging the temple (Mark 13). I think Mark did this in part because the temple TOOK the woman’s last pennies when it should’ve been helping her. Jesus judged them for that. You don’t have to look very hard to see that the Bible speaks to these things. It’s a novel idea that we should actually read it and try to by God’s grace to obey it. Wish these guys actually believed not just the inerrancy of Scriptures, but it’s authority as well. I’ve heard these types of preachers rail on tithing using the widow passage before but they never seem to actually speak on Mark 13 and how Jesus judges the false religion.
@ PP: It appears that they make about $390,000/week in receipts from givers. Add some other income and I am sure it is in the $20+million range. My guess is that they give about 10% of income to the outside which is what most churches do.
I believe that the shove it in the faces of the Charlotte community to get the media to lay off of them. However, the quid pro quo appears to be wearing off.
All fellow Rich Megachurch Pastors.
“Five kings rule o’er the Amorite,
Mighty as fear and old as night;
Swathed with unguent and gold and jewel,
Waxed they merry and fat and cruel.
…
“These five kings said one to another,
‘King unto king o’er the world is brother…’”
– G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
Dee
Any pictures from that trick or treat expedition in the ‘hood’?
Mega-church pastors like these are no longer focused on preaching the gospel. They are focused on preaching their brand. When you think about it, these men are CEOs of million dollar, for-profit companies – so they think they deserve CEO salaries.
I dated a guy who attends Kevin Gerald’s church. I went to a play they were performing and the first things I saw when I walked in was a coffee shop, a gift store, and an ATM. It was right then that I realized that they were in it for the money.
I was super grateful to go to mass the next day, hear 4 readings from the Bible, a simple homily that didn’t include a pitch for money, and a “hello” & hug from the priest as I was leaving.
That first video creeped me out. I might have nightmares. I will have to watch the other ones later. I need a shower.
One thing my family integrated church did right (in the midst of all the legalism) is not owning a building (expensive) and not paying the elders (who rotated giving the sermon). This meant that despite having only about twenty families, there was a surplus that could be used to help out poor members. They didn’t help enough, in my opinion, but they weren’t wasting money, either. Instead of passing a collection plate, they left a box in the back. I think many families gave more to outside ministries than the church, since they didn’t really need the money.
John 10:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
The NKJV isn’t my favorite translation, but I do love it’s use of the word “hireling.” Would Furtick or so many of these other “pastors” do any pastoring if they weren’t paid or were only hired part-time? While Paul (?) talked about the worker being worthy of his wages, he himself set the example of tent-making so as to not be a burden on others. I tend to think that missionaries should be the ones financially supported and that generally, pastors should consider carefully if their desire to serve God is supposed to be a career for them. Perhaps we’d be better off if people with the desire to care for the flock had a career first, saved like crazy, and then served full-time after an early retirement from their careers.
Birds of a Feather
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/11/learning_from_mark_driscoll.php
.
So, did Elephant Room buddies, Furtick, Driscoll, Noble, and MacDonald take their empire-building cues from Ed Young, Jr. and TD Jakes (as seems to be implied by Furtick), and CJ Mahaney?
Meanwhile in Germany, the Catholic priest Tebartz-Van Elst, the “Bishop of Bling”, has been suspended by the Vatican for extravagant spending.
http://www.independent.co.uk/i/page-3-profile–tebartzvan–elst-bishop-of-limburg-8899986.html
Furtick et al don’t answer to the Pope, but I wish there was some way to implement an accountability structure. The Vatican has spewed out plenty of wrongdoings in the past but at least the German dioceses know when to reel in a show-off.
My point being, is there any way Furtick and his buddies can be held accountable? There’s nobody above them to suspend them from their positions, so what to do to hold them back from their money-grabbing?
I am surely not alone in now having to take a shower. With bleach.
Anne wrote:
The very set up ensures no accountability and that is why it exists, IMO.
Crikey! So if it weren’t for stingy Christians, I’d be happily married (and probably have 2.5 kids and a house with a white picket fence by now). I mean, I knew God was kind of like a vending machine. I’d been told that when people tithe regularly, God will make their household appliances last longer. What I didn’t know was that tithing had such a far reaching “butterfly effect.” 😮
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Anon 1 just said the same thing a few comments above yours. Now I’m afraid to watch them.
@ Josh:
Kevin Gerald’s latest blog post http://championscentre.org/Blog/Kevin-Gerald/Holy-Shift
HOLY SHIFT OCTOBER 17, 2013
WHY SETTLE FOR LESS THAN ALL GOD WANTS TO GIVE US?
@ Josh: I am so sorry that men like Noble purport to represent the faith. May God protect us from this nonsense. It is destructive and I am getting really mad.
Dave A A wrote:
I almost expect him to go all Oprah on us and started talking about recognizing the “God consciousness” in all of us to make a “holy shift” to a higher plane of spirituality.
@ dee:
“Not All Like That” is already in use, but these shenanigans make me feel like I need to give a disclaimer before answering in the affirmative whenever someone asks me if I’m a Christian.
Anne wrote:
I saw that on the national news yesterday. The Bishop of Bling does have a RING to it. 🙂
deb wrote:
I remember that night because Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor 2 weeks later. I often reflected on how carefree I felt that evening. Things changed so drastically for years after.
Perry Noble IS the guy who always looks like he’s straining on the can with massive constipation!
Good grief. I cannot believe the waste of $$.
If these guys – Furtick, Noble, and Young – ever need another line of work, they should try infomercials.
Oh, that's right, the king of infomercials Kevin Trudeau is back in jail…
http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/23290379-418/infomercial-king-kevin-trudeau-tossed-back-in-jail-over-hidden-money.html
Hi Julie Anne
Its good to hear from you! Hope all is well.
Dee…this blog will forever be your repentance! 😛
For your support of Ed Young…I have one thing to say… REPENT WOMAN!!! :-p
You know…I’d never thought the day would come where I would really heap praise upon John Piper. Honestly I didn’t…but in this area John Piper should be commended and lives as an example. I will butt heads with him, and wish he wouldn’t get excited at (ed)Jonathan Edwards or tornados…but I can’t question his finances. His finances aren’t a distraction and if others lived like John Piper would some of these scandals continue to happen?
Oh well….at least with this one we’re not learning about a male prostitute and meth in the process…SO THIS is good! 😀
Deb wrote:
This makes me happy…Trudeau had been playing the judge like a fiddle…did you know that Trudeau is alleged to have been a Scientologist? (No surprise there.)
And he said to them, ‘Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions.’ Luke 12:15
This verse (and the many others like it) must be missing from the Bible used by the members of the “Compensation Committee”. Or maybe they did like Jefferson and cut and pasted their own version of the Bible:
And he said to them,
‘Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for‘one’s life doesnotconsist in the abundance of possessions.’Jack Graham has the time and care to serve on a fellow mega’s (or I prefer Jax Watchdog’s title “Giga”) compensation committee, but not for those wounded in his church? The week after Brett Shipp’s Langworthy story ran on WFAA in Aug. 2011, the parents of one of the Prestonwood victims went up to the church and requested a meeting with Jack. He refused. This man was one of the brave victims who came forward to Mississippi prosecutors. He is a convicted sex offender but served no time in prison. He was given a 50 year suspended sentence. Perhaps he would be in prison today if he would have been reported to police by Prestonwood in 1989 when someone in MS alerted them to the allegations, prompting their internal search for victims, apart from law enforcement. These other victims may have come forward then before so many years had passed. http://www.scribd.com/doc/117329773/Langworthy-State-s-Response
World Magazine’s new cover story discusses the Prestonwood/Langworthy case:
“The high cost of negligence” http://www.worldmag.com/2013/10/the_high_cost_of_negligence#.UmnTbPfFRI8.twitter
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
My computer monitor got all slimy when it played those videos.
I smiled at the “fan of dollars” pic – you were probably intentionally ambigious? Some fans of dollars have names and faces.
Anyway, it is good to know not everyone in the Christian world is like that. I just read this on facebook, told about Christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga:
HoppyTheToad wrote:
I think something in that direction too, but not early retirement: I believe churches may need a lot of volunteers who serve the church in their spare time, instead of one paid minister. Nobody have to retire early, they only need to set aside some hours a week for ministry.
OK. I finally looked.
Haterade? Jr. really is friends with Furtick, isn’t he? I have such a difficult time imagining Jr. as the former pastor of our blog host.
It’s too late to take another shower. I’ll just pop a couple of Advil and sleep it off.
Perry Noble is the one who claimed that if you asked your pastor to visit the sick, talk to people, etc. – you know, pastoral work, like pastors are supposed to do – he’d quit in two years or less, right?
He needs to talk to my pastor. He’s been busy actually doing his job for decades and he hasn’t burned out yet. Of course nobody knows his name so maybe he doesn’t count in Perryland?
I was so moved by Perry Noble’s clip that I have vowed to give 10% of all the Skittles I get to his “church”
@ Amy Smith:
amy, you want to know the sad irony? The revelation he is on Furtick’s “board” will probably damage his cred more than hiding the child molestation stuff. But then, not sure anything will damage his cred INSIDE Prestonwood.
Eagle
For our readers-Eagles is referring to the Ted Haggard scandal. You know, anyone who would say that he is building a “not so great” house, assuming he believes it, could be subject to other temptations that he could explain away as well. Keep an eye on people like this. There is usually more to come.
HoppyTheToad wrote:
They really don’t want volunteers or non-paid full time help/ church staff….It keeps their “buddies” from getting jobs. Trust me, I know. I tried to volunteer at a church I was attending, and they said “thanks, but no thanks. BTW I am not some Joe Blow” off the street. I am an alumni from SWBTS in the 1980s..and I’m retired, so I have the time…three of the people on staff don’t have college degrees, two hired since I volunteered….I no longer attend that church…
@ BeenThereDoneThat: BTDT
I wanted everyone to know that he was my former pastor. All of us can get sucked into a church which appears successful or claims they are doing church “God’s way.” I am so glad I went to his church. Watching a Southern Baptist pastor get sucked into the “prosperi-me” gospel taught me so much.
My daughter became quite sick while I attened there and we continued going, long after we knew there was a problem, because we didn’t have enough energy tp look for another church. I think God was in that, showing me the nonsense that is out there. Since that time, I have avoided the celeb pastor churches and the ones who do a big show with jumping 20 somethings pretending that their music is “almost Grammy level.”
God had one more lesson for me. I attended a church that, superficially appeared decent. But, underneath,there was some darkness. There was a predator stalking the children and the pastors did not handle it well, kindly, compassionately or forthrightly. Since that time, other things have come to light as well which revealed some deep seated issues.
I have come to believe that you can really know a church only when you see them handle a crisis. I had one pastor who brilliantly handled a potentially damaging situation. That was the church I attended after I left Ed’s church. He, and the elders, restored my faith that the church can function well.
God decided to show me the opposite after the next move. Bad to good to bad to good-each with tis own lesson.
I hope this blog encourages people to recognize that we all can get sucked in. We see HIm more clearly when we make a stand and leave because we are truly serving and following Him and value Him more that a manmade institution. For all of us who done that, I say “well done!”
K.D. wrote:
I have heard that in some of these churches, they only want the young and good looking to greet people. Old (above 40) and plain doesn’t cut it when it comes to the show. Also, degrees and appearance of successful is vital to the plan.
True Ed Young story:
One Sunday, my husband got a call and was asked to pray on stage. By this time, we were beginning to tire of the show. The ones who prayed usually had letters in front or back of their name Judge Smith, Atty Smith, Dr Smith, CEO Smith-you get the drift.
My husband said he would do it on one condition-he did not want Dr in front of his name, either in the bulletin or when he was introduced. This caused a ruckus but he held firm. It would have been too difficult to say he couldn’t do it because he wouldn’t let them put “Dr” in the bulletin, etc. So, he prayed, for the first and last time. He refused to play the game.
@ JeffT: Did you see that stuff from the Pajama Pages??? People who continue to attend that church, in light of those revelation, deserve him and each other.
@ Hester: Perry Noble doesn’t have time for the riff raft. He is too busy figuring out compensation packages for Furtick. et al. Now there are some really “important” people.
Retha Faurie wrote:
How perceptive of you! 🙂
dee wrote:
I did, although I could only read it a bit at a time-I got too angry and depressed. It is so troubling to see that there are so many people willing to turn a blind eye
@ dee:
Nobody can sympathize with another person better than someonene who has been there done . . . well, you know.
Anne wrote:
The only way for them to be held accountable is for we, “the little people”, to keep exposing this nonsense. If you’ve watched what’s happened with The Elephant’s Debt, you can see how overtime, exposing the corruption does begin to impact those of who were once “true believers.” (Sad how so many Christians act like Beliebers rather than believers.)
I’m reminded of that great line from Bruce Cockburn’s Lover’s in a Dangerous Time (also quoted by U2),
“You’ve got to kick at the darkness ’til it bleeds daylight…”
>What in the world is Furtick learning from these guys? Why them and not a Wade Burleson or David >Platt?
Great post Dee, but I would respectfully disagree with naming David Platt in the same sentence as Wade Burleson. I only know Platt from what he has done in Dubai and it appears to me he has lied and sensationalized things in order to make a buck. I lost all respect for him after the shenanigans he pulled here.
http://thouarttheman.org/2013/08/17/630/
K.D. wrote:
I’m sad to hear of your experience with that church. I hope you’ve found a place to worship and share life together 🙂 I too belive that it would be better to have a communuty where many and all can use their gifts as they volunteer. I believe that elders should be “elder” and probably bi-vocational or not paid a “salary” at all.
I believe another reason that many churches don’t want volunteers on staff is because they can’t control volunteers as easily (or at all) because the church/elders/leaders don’t control the means of livelihood for volunteers. You can subtly get people to agree with you, or people decide that disagreeing (strongly) is not worth possibly losing their job over — especially a well paying job. None of this is how we are to treat one another, especially brothers and sisters in Christ, whether paid staff or volunteers.
Followed Furtick’s example. Just put my two dogs and the cat on my compensation committee – give them a treat and they approve whatever salary I suggest.
@ TW: Actually, I believe that you are correct. I meant that in only a limited sense. Platt lives in a tiny house in a tough section of Birmingham. My comment was meant in the same way I mentioned John Piper. Live modestly. I am sorry that I didn’t make myself clearly and will try to do so with an update.
JeffT wrote:
Great comment! Yup, that's the gist of how it works. A whole lotta back scratching going on…
@ Anon 1:
There’s a continual supply of Kool-aid there! Tragic, indeed. Kids are no safer there today. There has been no recognition of wrongdoing, in fact, they have doubled down on their decisions to break the mandatory child abuse reporting law. Jack continues to say he handled it the right way. Langworthy is one of 4 child sexual predators that I have knowledge of, having heard from their victims, some of them my friends. One of these predators, a then SWBTS student and youth minister, made sexual advances to me when I was in high school in the Prestonwood church parking lot. About a year ago, I reported this incident to the Dallas police. I know he has other victims that he raped from our youth group. I hope that maybe one day they will have the courage to report him too. Maybe my report will help if they do. I know one of his victims is scared because the perp still lives in the dfw area and is a chaplain.
“Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants” – Justice Brandeis
@ Bill Kinnon:
Great quote! It brings to mind your post “Cracks in the Celebrity-Driven Church”
http://kinnon.tv/2013/06/cracks-in-the-celebrity-driven-church.html
I couldn’t learn much about Kevn Gerald, one of the lesser-known committee members. But I do know a bit about his main sanctuary building, from before he got there. I’ll call this story a cautionary tale of a Pastor, a Prophet, a Plan, a Place, and a Problem. The story is mostly true, but hard to substantiate, so I won’t name names. It’s a biased story– my only personal acquaintance being with the prophet. For the sake of the story, we’ll assume that prophets are still for today, and that this prophet was a true one. Pastor and Prophet have passed away, but the Place remains, now run by Pastors Gerald (Kevin’s wife is co-pastor).
In the 70’s an ordinary charismatic pastor was approached by a youth leader whose ministry had exploded. They needed somewhere to meet and had been rejected by other churches (some converts being despised hippies). Pastor took the chance, the church grew and grew, moved to a nice new building, big-name musicians and preachers stopped in, and conferences were held. At one “Prophets Conference”, one of the prophets had some unpleasant things to say. 🙁 One quote, based on Acts 16: “What are you looking for? Numbers? Can you be moved from your success for just one person? Unless you’re willing to cast your ministry away for one, you have no valid ministry. God took men away from a successful field of venture in order that a woman in a city called Philippi might be found on the day of the Shabbat outside the city and there receive the word of God unto salvation.”
Pastor was unwilling to cast away his ministry. He made a Plan to grow even larger called “Build it– they will come”. So the church built a Place– a mega-sanctuary– by borrowing at exorbitant 1980ish interest rates. After a few years they had a Problem. To stave off foreclosure, they bamboozled investors to keep afloat. Eventually the investors lost everything and some denomination stepped in to help. When or how Pastors Gerald took over is unknown.
Josh wrote:
Evolve to the Next Level —
Join Bo and Peep behind Hale-Bopp…
dee wrote:
Just like High School.
Football Jocks and Cheerleaders.
Pingback: Steven Furtick and the Walter White conundrum ← Pajama Pages
dee wrote:
I’ve read it’s not just greeters, but with anyone who serves in a visible way, such as singers.
There was a story about a month ago where a female preacher (or elder? – someone in charge) sent a memo to her church asking for people of a certain color to be greeters at the church doers. This memo was leaked to the public.
The lady meant it from good motives, but it came across really bad, and she had to retract and apologize. I think (IIRC) she is a black lady but was trying to attract more white people, and again IIRC, she was asking for light skinned people to serve as greeters. She figured more white people at the door would put white people at ease or attract more whites.
You can also read stories from Christian women over the age of 40 who were asked to step down from being church worship leaders, and from other visible roles, by their preachers for not being 25 years old anymore, or for not being cool hipsters:
In which they are overlooked in a sea of hipsters
I see some 20 and 30 something women (usually Christians) who are horrified by that kind of thing, but sometimes, on secular sites, I see ageism from the 20 something women about stories similar to that, where they think 40 is “old.”
(Miley Cyrus, 20 something pop star, recently made comments that people over 40 are “old” and ‘not sexual’).
I cannot wait until such dim bulbs get to 40 themselves, and let’s see how they appreciate being called “old” and “non sexual” by 20 year olds.
I never felt that way about over 40s when I was 20.
dee wrote:
Totally agree, Dee. What they did to James Duncan was not only cruel and childish but insidious. When I meet people who attend these sorts of churches after all these things have come out (let’s face it, most of them are young and cruise the internet) I cannot trust them. They are people to be avoided. It is their right to attend and give Noble their money but they should not expect people to trust them for their lack of wisdom and discernment.
@ dee:
That is not always an indicator. I know a mega church pastor who lived upper middle class, drove a Toyota and socked away millions for retirement. And he highlighted single moms who gave sacrificially in tithing as an example for others to give more. Not sure who is worse. The mega church pastor who flaunts it or the one who hides it?
Anon 1 wrote:
Was he getting paid a ridiculous salary? Sometimes people manage to save or invest millions for retirement because they don’t spend much of their income.
HoppyTheToad wrote:
It’s the highlighting of individuals as an example to others is what I find offensive. Many years ago, I attended a church that was raising money for a building project. The pastor, from the pulpit, commended a newlywed couple for giving money to the project that they were saving to spend on furnishing for their home. The message was clear. If a newlywed couple who have little furnishings can give sacrificially, just how much more other families can give who already have furnished their homes.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
…….,…………………………………………
Thanks for a good laugh. After reading through all these depressing posts about money grubbing pastors, some humor hit the spot.
dee wrote:
Yes.
“The main reason for this is that, as Gary Lamb discovered when he had to work a real job, megachurch pastors don’t really know what hard work is.”
ROFLMAO!!!
Joe wrote:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. Matt. 23:25
How about highlighting the couple who visited the children’s cancer ward at the hospital. Or the group who collected food for the family down the street whose father has just returned from the Iraq war. Or provided shelter for the woman whose husband has been beating her and abusing the children.
Oh no… our priorities are very different. /sarcasm off/
@ Joe: Let me tell you a funny story which I know is true. A mega pastor is asking his people to consider giving some expensive to the church. He told them that if they were thinking of moving to a more expensive house, they shouldn’t. Instead they should give that extra money to the church.
Well guess what? Said pastor, right after the sermon, bought an expensive new house which cost about $250,000 more than the old house. And he moved while encouraging his people not to do the same thing!!
@ Anon: Ditto.
@ Dee:
a name? accountability has to come from somewhere.
Justin Taylor just had this story on his Twitter feed.
Daisy wrote:
“Never trust anyone over twelve.”
— Last line of dialog from the Sixties satirical movie Wild in the Streets.
I do think John Piper is using wisdom in not living the lifestyle of the rich and famous, but he flies around the country and the world at the expense of Desiring God Ministries. Look at the clip below from their website last summer – 20 speaking engagements including 3 trips overseas this year? He’s been preaching his entire life – what else does he have to say that we haven’t heard already?
——————————————————————————-
“So what will John be doing? Here’s a short portion of an update and invitation he sent last week to some of our financial partners.
There are over 20 speaking engagements, including three trips overseas. I’ve plunged into three book projects………………………………
With our fiscal year ending June 30, we are praying toward a goal of $255,000, representing 6.2% of our $4,152,254 annual budget. That’s what we need to press on with next year’s expanded goals. Thank you for anything you are able to give. I love this ministry and feel affection for every kind of support.”
——————————————————————————-
Desiring God plays the same game as some of the other celebrity ministries. Look how they recently piggy backed on the success of “Radical” by releasing a chapter from “Don’t Waste Your Life” as a stand alone book called, “Risk is Right”, complete with forward by David Platt. (these preachers sure like to endorse each other) Just one more way they figured out how to dig into Christians’ pockets. (and yes, I know they offer his books for free online, but certainly they expect a certain amount of sales)
And Piper moved to Tennessee to work on his writing and speak at conferences. Not exactly “Risky” or “Radical” in my opinion.
@ HoppyTheToad:
Yes, he was paid a ridiculous salary that was hidden from the pew sitters. My point was highlighting a single mom that gave “sacrificially” when he knew he would have a secure life. She wouldn’t. But she felt so “special” and “holy” to be recognized for her sacrificial giving. And of course that prompted well heeled folks to give even more. They know what they are doing but the pew sitters don’t seem to get it. They just feel so important when the celebrity on stage gives them 5 minutes. It is not unlike they way folks are over Hollywood stars. But when you slap a fish on a celebrity, it becomes pious.
As to investing wisely. Let me put it this way. This mega church pastor had elders who paid a huge down payment on his nice upper class home to make his payments much lower. Free exotic vacations and always the best of everything. There are perks most folks are not aware of. Like drawers full of gift cards to every restaurant you can imagine.
M. Joy wrote:
Barnabas Piper has also moved to Tenn. To work for Lifeway as “content media strategist”. He was not even a Baptist as he went Presbyterian over baptism. My guess is now he is SBC as Lifeway pays well.
The dynasty building is unbelievable in Christendom. And pew sitters pay for it all. how nice of ’em
TW wrote:
Thanks for that link, TW. I know some people who live in Dubai, too and from their experiences, it’s not exactly a hotbed of radical Islam. Since part of Platt’s schtick is to encourage people to do “radical” things, he has to keep up the appearance that he is also doing something “radical” if he wants people to keep buying his books.
(off topic)
I wonder if these non-tippers were from Westboro?
I can’t believe anyone would think doing something like this would change anyone’s mind:
Carrabba’s server receives show of support after anti-gay message
(rude note left to waiter in place of tip by people claiming to be Christians)
Another page I read said other Christians came in, asked to have that same guy as their waiter, and I think they gave him big (monetary) tips.
I think this blog or some of the commentators mentioned someone (Piper maybe?) spending a small fortune to fly to some European city to film a five minute spot for a video.
I’m pretty sure I saw something about Furtick going all the way to Israel to film a brief video for one of her sermon intros or something. I wish I could remember where I saw it.
The only reason it sticks in my mind is reading about the Neo Reformed guy discussed here who spent big bucks going to Europe to make a video.
Maybe this is where I saw it:
Stuff Christian Culture Likes
@ Daisy:
Oops. I meant, for one of his sermon intros, not “one of hers”
@ Anne:
Maybe Catholics can do some things right. . .
@ Daisy: Re. Miley Cyrus: she has *no* idea, but hey… she’ll learn. (I hope!)
@ M. Joy: Thank you for your comment. In this case, it appears you are right and I am wrong. I superficially looked at his day to day lifestyle while he was in Minneapolis. I did not take into consideration other factors.
siena
I do believe that Cathollics do a lot of things right.
@ M. Joy: I agree with both you and TW. I have been meaning to do a post about his appearance at the Marriott in downtown Dubai. This was billed as an “undisclosed location deep in the Muslim world.” This was deceptive and Platt should have known better.
However, in his day to day life he does live quite modestly and that was what I was thinking when I wrote this.
Anon 1 wrote:
Lifeway is all about money and they hope Barnabas will draw some titles their way. That is why they dreamed up a title like that. These days, churches hide the fact they are Baptist so maybe Lifeway thinks hiring Baptists is no longer necessary.
@ Anon 1:
Homeschool leadership can be the same way. I know for a fact that state-level leaders in other parts of the country (I live in CT) got to take a spa weekend kind of deal, etc. every year (AFAIK with dues money paid to their organization), because the one year my mom was on the state homeschool support board, her fellow board members complained that they didn’t get to do this. (She didn’t care and this was part of why she quit after a year.) And these people are small potatoes next to national leadership like Farris, etc. I can only imagine what the perks are like at that level.
@ JeffT:
That is the best idea ever!
Happy Reformation Sunday, Dee and Deb!
Thanks so much for everything you do, and your vigilance towards abuse in the church. While I can’t respect everything about Martin Luther, he sure new how to use the technology he had to combat abuse and nonsense by the RCC. It’s great to see you continuing that tradition.
It’s hard to choose which of those three vids is the worst. Way I see it, Furtick’s is the most arrogant and disgusting, Noble’s is the silliest, and Young’s … it’s just the most bizarre. I couldn’t finish it.
And it’s revolting that Perry Noble has a say in what goes on in any church, let alone one other than Newspring. Do the Elevators not know he’s on this advisory board? Or not know what he did to James Duncan? Or do they just not care, as long as they get a good show?
TW, Thanks for that link. I had NO idea Platt was involved in such a staged event billing him as “risking his life” by speaking in Dubai! This only reinforces something I read by a couple that left his church who became weary of the constant material sacrificing that was considered holy there. It is always sad to realize what lengths these men will go to prop up their schitk.
As for Dubai; it was a layover place for some of my extended family who were doing medical missions in Afghanistan. They enjoyed it there after constantly being on guard in Afghanistan/Pakistan. They had also mentioned the willingness for the folks in Dubai to discuss spiritual matters where they had to be very cautious in Afghanistan/Pakistan back then.
One has to wonder how much Platt is socking back from books and speaking engagements while he lives modestly on the outside. Sorry, but I have seen that before so I am suspicious and even more so after finding out how his speaking in Dubai was billed as risking his life. How cheesy.
@ Anon 1:
Plus toleration and freedom of religion are part of that American Dream Platt so eagerly decries. Oops. I guess maybe the American Dream isn’t so bad after all. He really should start using “materialism” and “consumerism” instead. Otherwise he’s just biting the hand that feeds him and I’ll never be able to take him seriously.
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