First?

It appears that the Cameroon churches and seminary mentioned are in the western sector of the country that is anglophone. Years ago, we worked in the francophone eastern sector and crossed over into Central African Republic – also francophone. In both Cameroon and RCA, there are today factions that conscript minors into their militia. It is a very difficult time for families in the region. Would that God do a mighty work there, apart from or in spite of the USA church politics.

4th…. the worst place to finish…

🙁

"It will be fascinating to see whether the Southern Baptist Convention teams up with NETS in the years to come to plant or revitalize churches not only in New England but around the globe. "

Sounds to me they already have. Just not officially. One has to wonder how much NAMB money is involved.

Why would a New England based organization have their big banquet at SBTS? Also, some may not know Schreiner is a prof at SBTS.

Reminds me of something dumb the associate pastor at my church said a few weeks after he first moved here from IN. He claimed from the pulpit that “religion is ridiculed” in New England. Because he had so much experience accurately describing his environment after living here for a month.

Deb wrote:

It’s usually about the money

With the exodus of the “Dones” and “Nones” (Josh Packard, sociologist from the University of Northern Colorado), there is bound to be more re-grouping and re-branding for the sake of survival ($$$).

Tina wrote:

The alarm bells started going off in my head when I saw the word “revitalization”. What is their definition of “revitalization?”

Well… In Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea “revitalization” was what they called Seaview’s life-support system.

Tina wrote:

What is their definition of “revitalization?”

We convince enough of your people to give us your stuff and then we let you stay if you agree with us or at least keep quiet. Because if you do not believe that TULIP is Gospel and that Complementarianism is Gospel, and that the LocalChurchwithCovenantsandDiscipline is the Gospel, then you are without the Gospel and, therefore, dead. You need to be revitalized! And they will use the resources of other similarly dead people in the SBC to revitalize you until you either capitulate or leave. Because they are a parasitic movement that does not rely on the Holy Spirit but on the strategies and values of the world.

“… we hold fast to complementarianism and a Reformed orientation …”

Women of New England beware!!

I think I’ll alert my *female* pastor about this and get her allied with some people and plant an egalitarian Episcopal Church next door to every one of their church plants.

(kidding)

(kind of)

@ Gram3:
Yes, in Louisville we found out revitalization means using Other Peoples Money to gain debt free churches for a YRR pastor to take over.

And yes, they are masters of playing fast and loose with by laws…until they have power to rewrite them. Ezell’s (NAMB president and Mohler yes man) former church did this saying there was no provision in the by laws for shut ins to vote! Think of people who were there 30 years (an old est church) and still giving denied a vote because they could not come to the building.

If you guys wonder why I think so little of these men, there are thousands of examples. They are cruel and duplicitous.

William wrote:

I remember sitting in chapel at Southeastern and hearing about this project.

Totally off topic: William, did you have Micah Mattix for any of your English classes?

I have a couple of thoughts regarding NETS and the whole New England/More Than New England push:
1. In 1997 SEBTS launched a massive push to church plant in New Hampshire. At the time Paige Patterson was president, and as most know, he is DECIDEDLY anti-Calvinist. I remember sitting in several chapel sessions listening to appeals to move to NH to church plant, or to greater New England. (Ironically, I almost did when I transferred to Gordon Conwell but it was too expensive in Boston so I took classes at the Charlotte campus.)
2. NETS is a misnomer, unless world geography has changed. Cameroon and Dubai? Hmmm, western Cameroon is not hostile to Christianity and Dubai is the most open of all the Arabian countries (as Todd has pointed out). What this is starting to sound like is A29 with a more Neo-Calvinistic leaning. I wonder if NETS will eventually replace A29 as the go to church planting (CP) network for the TGC/9M crowd.

@ dee:

The patriarch stuff will not sell in Boston.

Nope. Any New Englander reading the stuff in the OP could tell them that they do NOT understand their mission field at all. Esp. since there are so many Catholics here. “Religion is dead in New England” only works if you redefine “religion” to mean “my particular denomination of Protestant Christianity.”

@ William:

I remember sitting in chapel at Southeastern and hearing about this project. My first thought: Great, they’re going to plant Calvinist churches in New England and spread Calvinism — cuz, you know, that’s what they do. What they call spreading “the Gospel” is them spreading Calvinism.

I also loved how they called themselves “interdenominational” and then proceeded to loudly label themselves Reformed/Calvinist and Baptist. Somehow I don’t think they’d mesh very well with Wesleyan or Greek Orthodox folk despite their “interdenominationality.”

knowing part of the Maine area pretty well, Calvinism is already there and has been for sometime. The culture of churches has been dominated by pastors or preachers that attended New Brunswick Bible Institute, Glen Cove Bible college which has closed its doors but the effects still remain. Ministries like CEF which are complementarian are quite large in the area and churches that adhere to the 9marks credo are more prevalent than one might think. The sending out of missionaries to plant these types of churches is supported by more local churches there already. These guys just see fertile territory and can go in and reap the harvest so to speak.

I’m surprised I don’t see Jared Wilson’s name in all of this. Doesn’t he have a church in Vermont?

@ Kevin:
Thanks for this insight.

@ Kevin:
Are you familiar with Oxford County (Bethel, Rumford, Paris)? I know a century or two ago Calvinism was a big thing there. Now, most churches in Oxford County are empty, unless there’s a wedding or a funeral. The last time we were in Maine, we visited a new church. It was not friendly! The song leader was the ONLY person who spoke to us.
Right now, I am only aware of three churches in Maine that are admittedly Reformed, and one of those may have recently closed it’s doors. New Brunswick (Canada)has about 100 students.
Of course, it’s been 4 or 5 years since I’ve spent much time in Maine.

dee wrote:

For a totally voluntary yet significant love offering, we will negate Dave AA’s position and declare you the winner.

That’s a great biblical focus on achieving gospel results, Dee – we’ll make a YRR out of you yet!

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Ahem.

It has been brought to my attention that in my passionate zeal to reach many gospels for Jesus, my previous comment may have inadvertently created the impression that some of my co-workers had contemplated bribery an overzealous use of gospelJesus funds.

It would appear that mistakes were made.

I can assure you all that my entire gospel focus is to servJesus for the gospel of Jesus. I am truly grieved and broken – sniff – that hurt was caused by my love for Jesus as I biblical gospel Jesus.

It was somebody else’s fault, but through my great love for Jesus I forgive those people who have so cruelly attacked me, and did I mention Jesus already?

lydia wrote:

My guess is we are looking at a strategy to plant new churches overseas with those trained in “correct” Neo Cal doctrine. They just aren’t saying so upfront.

Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
Purity of Ideology.
Ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields.

Tina wrote:

This reminds me of when the old Boston Movement from my background, the Churches of Christ, started “reconstructing” and “replanting” churches that their “mother movement”, the Crossroads Movement, had started. “Reconstruction” meant that new leaders came in, and everyone’s conversion and life in Christ was examined. More often than not, they were told that they weren’t really Christians in the first place and that they needed to be rebaptized.

After the Coup comes the Purge, Comrades.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

At last. Somebody in this festering pit of accusation and calumny who is truly Christ-centred.

If the rest of you would focus on Jesus as much as Nick Bulbeck’s last comment, instead of on attacking other believers and slandering godly men, all the world’s problems would disappear.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to savour the aroma of my own flatulence.

Up Yours sincerely,
Roger Bombast

@ Nancy2:
I know of some churches in that area from other folks but not intimately aware of their background or goings on. My experience is mostly midcoast Maine and some central near Augusta.

This is of interest to me, as I live in southern New England. I looked up the NETS church in CT, which they claim is the largest evangelical church in CT, a whopping 125 in attendence…Liar, liar, pants on fire!
I guess the Church I attend ( about 160/170 ) doesn’t count as evangelical as we American Baptist and non reformed. Really the hubris of their statement says it all.
Interesting sidenote, a new Southern Baptist plant (not associated with this group) was established in my town two years ago. Same dismal picture of New England is painted, ” darkness”, no church attendance, etc. We have a lot of Catholics who do attend church, guess their attendance doesn’t count.
Anyway, watching this new SB plant, so far, a good number of the people who go there, have been pulled from other evangelical churches.

Mae wrote:

I guess the Church I attend ( about 160/170 ) doesn’t count as evangelical as we American Baptist and non reformed. Really the hubris of their statement says it all.

You are correct, Mae. If your church doesn’t belong to the sending group, then it doesn’t count and never will. And pulling from other evangelical churches is acceptable because it is considered leading the people out of darkness and into the marvelous light…of whatever theology the sending groups aligns with.

Back in ’97, the big push as SEBTS was New Hampshire (see my previous comment). It was sold as a place of rampant darkness, etc.; largely because there were only 15 SBC churches in the entire state.

@ Deb:

How cute…if this is their history are they going to hold witch trials in the NE and determine who is and who is not a Christian? Mass hangings anyone?

lydia wrote:

I don’t think so. They all have a black eye from acts29 and they know it. However, One of the more successful Acts 29 plants distanced themselves a few years ago and started their own network: Sojourn. Has Driscoll DNA all oved it. They even hired Mars Hill staff pastors.

You’re referring to Brad House? To be fair he was one of the people from mars Hill that signed a letter saying that the treatment of Paul Petry and Bent Meyer was wrong. I do credit Brad for that…

Max wrote:

“… we hold fast to complementarianism and a Reformed orientation …”
Women of New England beware!!

Amen. These are not the chains of Christ that Paul was so honored to bear, but chains of a different master altogether.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Tina wrote:
The alarm bells started going off in my head when I saw the word “revitalization”. What is their definition of “revitalization?”
Well… In Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea “revitalization” was what they called Seaview’s life-support system.

Didn’t they get taken over by monsters quite often in that show?

refugee wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Tina wrote:
The alarm bells started going off in my head when I saw the word “revitalization”. What is their definition of “revitalization?”
Well… In Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea “revitalization” was what they called Seaview’s life-support system.

Didn’t they get taken over by monsters quite often in that show?

Let me rephrase that. Don’t they get taken over by monsters masquerading as members of the crew, quite often in that show?

Great parallel to the YRR “revitalization” crowd.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

After the Coup comes the Purge, Comrades.

For sure!

refugee wrote:

Let me rephrase that. Don’t they get taken over by monsters masquerading as members of the crew, quite often in that show?

In between the Seaweed Kaiju of the week.

@ Deb:

“Jared has moved on to greener pastures. Here is what he reveals about himself.”
+++++++++++++++++++

he’s being honest, at least. (or so it seems)

lydia wrote:

@ Eagle:
There was another one…cannot remember his name. May not even be there now. When did the letter thing happen? Was it while he still worked for Driscoll?

Tim Beltz. Still there. He became an MH executive just after the 2007 re-organization and bus driving, and apparently before that was a consultant who helped re-organize. http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/06/mars-hill-shoreline-and-pastor-tim.html
The letter was only 11/02/14, after Driscoll had safely re-signed.
To bring this back to NETS and their “re-planting”, this term may have been invented by Scott Thomas, former fellow MH executive and Acts29 honcho, now Journeying in St Louis. He signed the belated apology as well.
If someone else invented re-planting and Thomas just re-invented it, feel free to give credit. Do we have Ed Stetzer to thank for “re-vitalization” or did he re-vive the concept?
I do believe “re-surgence” is still the official property of Pastormark.

Dave A A wrote:

I do believe “re-surgence” is still the official property of Pastormark.

Looks as if the details on Mars Hill Church trademarks — including “Resurgence” for its publishing — have not been changed yet, though the Trademark database is updated regularly.

Here’s some info I posted on trademarks a while back, with some of the trademark serial numbers added in square brackets.

The misuse of trademarks, logos, word marks, and other such intellectual property has been noted as one of the top problems that non-profits tend to get into. If you want to research the series of registered trademarks related to Mars Hill Church, here is the procedure:

Go to the United States Patent and Trademark Office site.
http://www.uspto.gov/main/profiles/acadres.htm

Choose SEARCH TRADEMARKS (right hand side of the screen).

Select BASIC WORD MARK SEARCH.

Search Term = Mars Hill Church [or Resurgence]
Field = ALL
Submit Query

In the results, not all of Mars Hill items belong to Mars Hill Church in Seattle. The registered trademarks links that are relevant include:

Mars Hill Church
Mars Hill Music
Re:Lit
Re:Sound
Re:Train
R [Serial number = 85563474]
Resurgence [Serial number = 85763326]

Click on the link for a profile page that includes the registered owner of the trademark.

Burwell Stark:

Did you ever run into my friend Robbi Fischer at Forest Hill Church in Charlotte? They used to host (and may still) the Gordon Conwell campus in Charlotte.

#1 They lost me at “A Brotherhood of Men.” Not only is that ridiculous, but it’s redundant.

#2 I’m guessing that New England is in as much dire need of new churches as Portland, OR is. Portland has always been one of the most unchurched areas in the U.S., but drive by any street and a church is not hard to find.

Dave A A wrote:

Better known as 02/11/14 for … *god*.

Listen, sonny – it’s thanks to Me you have dates in the first place. 😉

Best regards,
God

@ lydia:

Lydia-

Read the link, there was a letter sent to Paul Petry and Bent Meyer that a number of former Mars Hill elders (15) signed. It addressed the issues in the 2007 trial.

http://repentantpastor.com/confessions/letter-confession-bent-meyer-paul-petry/

Eagle wrote:

@ lydia:

Lydia-

Read the link, there was a letter sent to Paul Petry and Bent Meyer that a number of former Mars Hill elders (15) signed. It addressed the issues in the 2007 trial.

http://repentantpastor.com/confessions/letter-confession-bent-meyer-paul-petry/

Most of them are still in paying ministry jobs. Why? Because they confessed when they saw it crumbling? I would have a ton of respect for these guys if they got out of paid ministry. But this looks like image rehab to me.

@ Hester:
I know. But they don’t seem intetested in actual people, so why bother doing any research?

I can’t imagine thst most people in the New England states would so much as give them the time of day. Even if they *are* planning “stealth” takeovers of Unitarian churches, or whstever… 😉

@ Anonymous:
“Ethnic churches”? That’s an odd way to characterize recent immigrants from anywhere, imo…

dee wrote:

@ Hester:
Great comment. Their definition of the gospel™ is believing in secondary doctrine their way. The patriarch stuff will not sell in Boston.

Quite right, it will not sell. For which we will be branded as….rebellious, unrepentant, reprobate.

Hester wrote:

Reminds me of something dumb the associate pastor at my church said a few weeks after he first moved here from IN. He claimed from the pulpit that “religion is ridiculed” in New England. Because he had so much experience accurately describing his environment after living here for a month.

That reminds me of when hubby and me were living outside of Atlanta, and attending church. They were sending out a pastor to plant a church in MA. You can’t imagine the ignorance they proclaimed in regards to the spiritual flavor of New England. That was thirty years ago, but I am guessing it’s not changed much.

@ Lydia:

“Disciplined” . . . I couldn’t help but laugh, and I know this is no laughing matter, but these guys treat members of the Body of Christ like unruly little children. What God must be thinking . . .

Ted wrote:

I’m in the Mt Desert Island/Ellsworth area of Maine.

OT. I was just there two weeks ago for a New England trip. It was beautiful up there, although Autumn was a bit late. Long Pond was beautiful, and Acadia, and Bar Harbor. I actually liked the quiet side much better.

@ numo:

Numo:

I have seen the term “Ethnic” church used to describe churches made up of people of a distinct ethnic minority – as opposed to the anglo majority in the U.S.

For example, we have a Burmese church that meets on our church property at a separate time. Most of the adults are recent immigrants who do not speak English. They have a Burmese speaking pastor, use Bibles written in Burmese, and sing in Burmese.

Many immigrants have come to the U.S. in recent years from countries that would not allow the planting of a church.

That’s what I mean. Hope it makes sense. I have seen this term used before. Promise that I did not invent it.

Ted wrote:

I’m in the Mt Desert Island/Ellsworth

We’ve been camping in Acadia and explored Cadillac Mtn. Breathtaking! I took lots of photos! I have a gold-toned lobster lapel pin from there that I wear quite often. I think of Mt. Desert every time I wear the pin, and sometimes even when I don’t!Ted wrote:

Most people in our church are unaware or apathetic. Only seven (7) people were at the after-church meeting on Sunday to discuss this, and about the same at a meeting last spring.

That’ scary. Do you think that 9Marks/YRR can really get a foothold there?

brad/futuristguy wrote:

Well, it’s been just over a year since Mark Driscoll re:signed, and — at least publicly — no one seems to know what re:mains. It was, is, and shall be a mess.

I’m reminded of the former Evergreen Christian Fellowship, a cautionary tale of ever there was one for churches which want to “live again” (revitalization) via the Acts 29 method.
http://sammamishreview.com/tag/evergreen-christian-fellowship
Just over 3 years from revitalization to — SOLD!

@ Ted:

Ted…what did they speak about at the meeting?

@ Lydia:

I don’t know what their numbers are.

I have visited, and enjoyed it. I have had friends who live in NYC from Mexico who were members. They enjoyed it. I have another friend who was reared in my city and swore off organized religion for years. She is involved in the acting and film community. She attends and likes it.

I believe that Keller is a respected voice for the faith in NYC, even by those who do not believe.

Nancy2 wrote:

Ted wrote:
I’m in the Mt Desert Island/Ellsworth
We’ve been camping in Acadia and explored Cadillac Mtn. Breathtaking! I took lots of photos! I have a gold-toned lobster lapel pin from there that I wear quite often. I think of Mt. Desert every time I wear the pin, and sometimes even when I don’t!Ted wrote:
Most people in our church are unaware or apathetic. Only seven (7) people were at the after-church meeting on Sunday to discuss this, and about the same at a meeting last spring.
That’ scary. Do you think that 9Marks/YRR can really get a foothold there?

A foothold? Yes. A large one? No.

At some point, the YRR is going to blow themselves up…They ( IMO) cause more and more people to become ” Nones” and ” Dones” and I do not see the trend ending.

Anonymous wrote:

But the way we see them – 2 guys from the middle east who have converted – we expect them to love each other.

They may be Christians now, but they are still human. In a situation like that, brotherly love takes time, even with a conscious effort on both parts …….. sometimes a couple of generations, even.

Anonymous wrote:

I have seen this term used before. Promise that I did not invent it.

No, you did not invent it. I have heard it used a lot. We have an interesting ‘ethnic’ church in a near by town composed of Arabic speaking people and the church is SBC. They play up the fact that they are/consider themselves Arabs (apparently a broad term) and have a yearly festival similar to the Greek festival except much smaller. The church is small and probably struggling but unique and ‘out there’ in the community.

Mae wrote:

dee wrote:

@ Hester:
Great comment. Their definition of the gospel™ is believing in secondary doctrine their way. The patriarch stuff will not sell in Boston.

Quite right, it will not sell. For which we will be branded as….rebellious, unrepentant, reprobate.

Counter-revolutionary, Reactionary, Imperialist Stooge, Thought-Criminal, Goldsteinist…

brad/futuristguy wrote:

P.S. I suppose that by using ” – ” instead of ” : ” you wouldn’t be guilty of an exact duplication of the registered wordmark. Well done, Dave A A!

Sounds like those Sovereign Citizen types who spell their names ::first-middle:last:: or :first-middle:of House last: instead of the Gubmint Legal Fiction Name FIRST MIDDLE LAST.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Weren’t those Unitarian churches in New England started by the burned-out descendants of Calvinist Puritans?

Hee Hee. Yes.

Nancy2 wrote:

There are definite culture barriers just between Kentuckians and “Mainiacs” (my husband’s terminology).

I've heard that there are issues between "Mainiacs" and people from Massachusetts who have moved to Maine to avoid the high taxes of their former home. The locals call them "Mass Holes".

@ William:

He and I have been friends for nearly 20 years. I will tell him what you said and that you enjoyed his class!

All this talk about Christianity in New England has drawn me out of lurking-mode…

I grew up in SW Connecticut, in a town that was literally founded by a Puritan church in 1639. This church was the government. This town was actually a theocracy for many years, until the need (for security reasons) to join the CT colony required extending the vote to non-churchmembers.

Fast forward 300 and some years, and this was the exact church I grew up in. Only now it was very liberal and inclusive, and still is. But very Christian still.

What do any of these latter-day Baptist/Calvinist clowns know about Christianity in New England? It has a long, long history, and has evolved in many ways, and has subtleties of its own that I doubt any outsider can posibly fathom,

I feel like my old home church (that I haven’t been a part of for many years -I live too far away) is now closer to the teachings of Christ than it’s ever been in all its long history. And I feel like it’s what they were always aiming for.

Yes, I said the teachings of Christ. Read the Gospels, and try living up to the teachings of Christ. It is nothing like these Calvinista wack-jobs…

Why do people like to complicate things?

Eagle wrote:

Ted…what did they speak about at the meeting?

It was informal. The pastor asked if we had any questions (there has been some info over the past year or two, and a sermon series on eldership).

The move at this point is solely about changing to an elder format, perhaps three elders, pastor included. Change in by-laws to accommodate. Keep the diaconate, which would continue to include women; but eliminate the church council, which is made up of department heads including women. The elder board would include NO women because women were not elders in the New Testament (some, however, were deacons, as Phoebe in Romans 16).

So, doing the math: one board added, no girls allowed; one board subtracted, that presently allows girls…

Stated reasons for elder board supplanting the diaconate and church council:
1. It’s more biblical.
2. It would make discipline more efficient.

One woman in particular is as upset as I am, and she asked some tough questions, including “Would this make the church more Calvinist?” and while that is not really mentioned as a goal, the Sunday school class had in fact been treated to a video series on Calvinism this spring. This woman was as concerned by that video as I was.

I kept my mouth shut for as long as possible (she handled her part quite ably) but when it was time I voiced my concern (“to the point of alarm,” I reminded the pastor, referring to an earlier conversation with him) that indeed, Calvinism, or rather “New Calvinism” seemed to be a phenomenon affecting many Baptist churches, as well as a move toward Complementarianism—and indeed, one of the current deacons just finished a Sunday school series on Comp, called “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,” based on a book by Piper and Grudem. So, although Calvinism and Comp are not stated as goals in this plan, they cannot be ignored.

The discussion became an exchange between myself and the pastor from there, and we are great friends, but I let him know that if it’s biblical we’re talking about there are holes in the interpretation that women may be deacons but not elders (1 Timothy 3, elders must be husband of one wife, which obviously means male, but I pointed out that the same requirement is expected of deacons, and if they must be the husband of one wife, what about Phoebe? It’s agreed at our church that women may remain in the diaconate, although its role would be subordinate to the elder board). He had an answer for that that I didn’t really connect with and don’t even remember, and he said that wherever deacons are mentioned in the bible there also elders.

Fine. But my argument revolves more around Galatians (all of Galatians, but specifically chapters 1 and 2 where Paul rebukes Peter and others for insisting that believers must practice circumcision and dietary law). I maintain that neither elder government, nor episcopal gov’t, nor congregational gov’t is best, that any will do nicely (and our cong gov’t has performed well for 100+ years). The problem comes when anyone insists that we must do it this way or that because it’s “more biblical.” Do we start serving wine at communion? Welch’s grape juice was not served by Jesus or the apostles.

The pastor insists that eldership is needed, that it will facilitate discipline (we can’t apply discipline as deacons?) and the example that keeps coming up is “if a man should leave his wife for another woman.” I’ve reminded him more than once that when a man leaves his wife (or a woman her husband) they always leave the church too, and don’t ask permission.

Discipline does seem to be a growing concern for our pastor. But I’m afraid that an insistence on what’s “biblical” may be misguided, even idolatrous. Peter was led astray, even Barnabas, by those who insisted upon one way to practice. Merely because this is the way they did it back then (and I think they did it because it was practical, not because it’s commanded by God) doesn’t make a mandate for us. Something else seems to be at work here.

The pastor and one of the deacons (and by the way, I was a deacon until term-limited a couple of years ago) went to Washington DC for a four-day “Weekender” conference at Mark Dever’s Capital Hill Baptist Church. They speak fondly of that weekend.

I’ll shut up now.

Jerome wrote:

“The Personal and Family Track concerns itself with the secret life of each believer and the strength of each marriage. It takes at least one year to penetrate the veneer of a couple’s life.”

This is sick voyeurism.

Ted wrote:

Discipline does seem to be a growing concern for our pastor. But I’m afraid that an insistence on what’s “biblical” may be misguided, even idolatrous.

I know I’m overstepping my bounds here, but I’m gonna let ‘er fly anyway ……. Does the church body still have the authority to fire this pastor??? If so, the church might be better off with a layman serving as interim pastor until you can find a new pastor.

Nancy2 wrote:

Ken P. wrote:
I’ve herd that there are issues between “Mainiacs” and people from Massachusetts who have moved to Maine to avoid the high taxes of their former home. The locals call them “Mass Holes”.
Very true. They can’t stand one another.

Here’s a little more on that issue:
Granted, Mainiacs are not famous for friendliness and hospitality, but many (not all) from Mass. act like they own the state of Maine ~~ rude, territorial, and uppity. I have encountered a few of them. ( A couple of them believe that Walmart in Mexico, ME is there for the sole purpose of serving “Mass Holes” and everyone else is in their way!)
I have a friend who is originally from Mass. who now lives in Dirty Lew. He is friendly and respectful, but it took ten years for the locals to accept him. He now calls others from his “home” state “Mass Holes”.

@ Anonymous:
I’d be inclined to say something along the lines of “churches started by immigrants from [name of country],” myself, or “thd Burmese/Korean/Etiopian (whatever),” church, but then, i used to teach/tutor ESL in the D.C. area, which has vety large gtoupsmof recent immigrsnts, many of thrm regugees. “Ethnic” is sometimes used a code for non-white, and in some cases, it’s an outtight slur.

I figured that wasn’t your intention, which is why i asked… so i could get some clarification. Text-only can be a pretty fifficult medium at times! 🙂

@ Anonymous:
Umm, i think it’s more that many of the Kurds would like to form their own independent state. The national borders in most of the world are pretty arbitrary, as in the case of the Kurdish minorities in a number of Arab countties plus Turkey.

Jerome wrote:

“The Personal and Family Track concerns itself with the secret life of each believer and the strength of each marriage. It takes at least one year to penetrate the veneer of a couple’s life.”

This is just creepy and wrong on so many levels.

@ brad/futuristguy:
Of course, all of these publications you cite were written by white people, likely middle-class at that. The word “ethnic” ends up being = Someone Who is Not Like Us, for most of the people eho read such matetials and use that terminology.

Understand that immigrants also have code words and not-always-complimentary terms for us, too. And our churches, and all of our institutions, really. It goes both ways.

I kinda wish that the prople who write these kinds of books would avtually go snd live in a non-white, recent immigrants from wherever enclave, to actually get a little bit of a sense of how their neighbors live, how they socislise, learn some new (to the Americans) customs, and so on. (I’ve made my own mistakes in this regard, and honestly, my comment shows up how much i really *don’t* know and need to learn.)

Fwiw, in England, “ethnic” = code word for Indian and Pakistani. And not always in a well-meaning way.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes, which is one readon that i added thd winky face at the rnd of yhat sentence…

@ roebuck:
Full disclosue: i worked at Mystic Seaport for a summer when i was in undergrad, and there were exactly zero Portuguese or black employees. There’s a huge Portuguese fishing fleet just a couple of miles away, but it took far too long for the Seaport to so much as acknowledge them, and many other folks, in their NE fisheries exhibit texts and displays. But it was founded and run by wealthy WASPS, so…

numo wrote:

Of course, all of these publications you cite were written by white people, likely middle-class at that. The word “ethnic” ends up being = Someone Who is Not Like Us, for most of the people eho read such matetials and use that terminology.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that many SBC materials that reference “ethnic churches” were written by middle-class Caucasian men. But I also have African-American and Hispanic church planting friends who use this term when they talk and write about the churches they planted and pastor, conferences they attend, etc.

Which is why I talked about it being a “label.” And when I use that term, I almost automatically of the quote from Dana Carvey, “To label me is to ignore me.”

Language on all this stuff is a bear that needs to be dealt with.

Would be intriguing to compare terminologies used by American Baptists (who used to be Northern Baptists), Southern Baptists, and National Baptists (predominantly African-American). Also compare racial diversity among memberships.

Also wondering what could happen if NAMB absorbed IMB … would a more respectful terminology emerge?

dee wrote:

Having grown up in Salem, Mass and still having family in the area, I predict that the “beat them over the head” with obedience and doctrinal minute will not sell well. The Christians that do the best are the ones who embrace a unity of different points of view on the secondary expressions of the Gospel. Tim Challies and Al Mohler and their harping on Young Earth creationism will not be receive well in that environment.

Having recently visited the Boston area, I am pretty sure you’re right. They might make headway in western Massachusetts, further out, but it’s hard to say.

Ted wrote:

Stated reasons for elder board supplanting the diaconate and church council:
1. It’s more biblical.
2. It would make discipline more efficient.

After #2 my thought would now be where is the nearest exit?

dee wrote:

I find this “let’s go to Dubai” initiative a bit curious. I am wondering if things are not going as well as hoped in New England and they are now looking for more fertile ground. Funny-there are already two 9 Marks churches in Dubai.

Rumor has it that things are not going that well in Dubai either.

Several years ago the Sheikh of Ras Al Khaimah agreed to allow an evangelical church to be built on the grounds of an area where there was already a Roman Catholic church and an Anglican church. UCCD, pastored by John Folmar was a bit deceptive in their publicity campaign to raise money for this effort. They made it sound like this was the first church allowed to be built in RAK, then when challenged on this declaration they changed their tune and said it was the first “evangelical church.”

Folmar hand-picked Josh Manley, an SBTS graduate who at the time worked on Al Mohler’s staff, to come to the UAE and be the pastor of the new church plant (so much for UCCD’s congregational polity). There were plans to make this new church into a hub for spreading the 9Marks gospel throughout the Middle East. They had hopes of making a training/conference center at the new church but due to lack of growth and funding this has never materialized. Perhaps this is going to be the focus of the “Vision conference” mentioned in your article – they may hope to jump start this with renewed publicity and then donations from the USA.

I have heard several of the families that initially left UCCD for the church plant in RAK have left the RAK church. I have also heard that the Manley’s are discouraged and I wonder if they will continue in their ministry there.

RAK is a small town about an hours drive north of Dubai. It is very conservative and very Muslim. Not many westerners live there. Church growth is proving to be a much more difficult task than in Dubai.

As an aside, UCCD and Redeemer Church of Dubai love to foster the impression that their churches are doing great things amongst the Muslim population. I do not believe this to be true. They mostly cater to the expat population living here. Anyone who has lived in the Middle East knows it is very, very rare for a Muslim to attend a Christian church. I have seen a few at weddings, but that is it. If there is any evangelism occurring it is done slowly through developing true friendships. My wife has been friends with an Iranian woman for 5 years. They discuss religion but it is not forced and is only possible because these two are true friends. I contend that this type of “evangelism” is the only type possible in Muslim countries and, contrary to what John Folmar would tell you, it would occur with or without a Christian church in the city.

http://uccdubai.com/rakchurchplant

lydia wrote:

What is “content strategy”. If I recall correctly, that is similar to the title LifeWay gave Barnabas Piper.
Sounds Orwellian.

It’s common these days to call anything published on the internet “content” whether it’s words, photos, or video. I bet Jared C. Wilson runs the Twitter/Facebook/Vimeo accounts for Midwestern Seminary. Or is the boss of whoever runs them.

@ Nancy2:
Massachusetts migration to Southern NH has produced similar results and acrimony.

@ Todd Wilhelm:
So, according to Wes Pastor, the foundation of true Christianity revolves around:
1.) instructions in the Pauline letters (twisted and misinterpreted!!!)
2.) forcing women into permanent subservience
3.) blind obedience to church leaders
4.) givng until it literally hurts
5.) handsomely rewarding church leaders for lording over the congregation

Church = feudal serfdom under monarchical rule???

numo wrote:

i worked at Mystic Seaport for a summer when i was in undergrad

Numo, was John Gardner there? I have a couple of his boatbuilding books, and his “Dory Book” changed my life (or at least the way I look at small boats).

Nancy2 wrote:

Does the church body still have the authority to fire this pastor???

Technically, yes, but that’s not going to happen. He’s still a good pastor, and even I would not want to see that. We disagree on certain points, and if we can’t reconcile we either have to live with that, or I’m the one to leave. Todd Wilhem, at 5:20 AM, put his finger on it.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Ted stated that he is friends with the Pastor. My experience is Ted is being tolerated at the present time out of necessity. Once the 9Marx transition is fully implemented Ted will be encouraged to find a new church.

After the Coup, the Purge.
And Ted will have Outlived His Usefulness to The Party.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

“RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!
PREPARE TO BE ASSIMILATED!”

LIVE FREE OR DIE!!!!!

@ Ted:
Not then, no. I worked in the small boat shop (answering visitors’ questions) some of the time, but it was an annex. The “real” small boat shop wasn’t open to thd public.

@ Ted:
Here’s the thing: the bostbuilders made the most lovely wooden boats… that none of them vould afford. They were sold to very wealthy people. Every year they recreated a different type of small boat. It seems a shame thst all of them ended up in places far from the museum, where nobody but the owners could admire the hard work and master craftsmanship that went inyo them.

Ted wrote:

We disagree on certain points, and if we can’t reconcile we either have to live with that, or I’m the one to leave. Todd Wilhem, at 5:20 AM, put his finger on it.

If that’s the way it is, then ipso facto, he is not a “good pastor”, because a good pastor would realize that the forcing out of another over a secondary difference was not only outside of the scope of his authority (can anyone tell me from the Bible what authority, if any, a pastor has? Is that defined? I’ll answer it for you: No, it’s not, simply not there, a pastor is a lowly servant, not a singular CEO).

Ted

I can empathize with your situation.
I had a disagreement with a good friend, my pastor. Ouch!!! Help!!! Oy Vey!!! 🙁
The Benifit??? I had NO place else to Go – but to Go To Jesus…

And jesus is the Best

Sounds like you’re now involved in a riveting, stimulating, adventure. 😉
I hope I’m wrong, but it looks like…
Your Faith, “more precious than Gold,” is about to be tried with fire…
I pray that your Faith Fail NOT…

1 Pet 1:7
That the trial of your faith,
being much more precious than of gold that perisheth,
though it be **tried with fire,**
might be found unto praise and honour and glory
at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire…
———-

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Wes Pastor, in his Masters Thesis on church leadership (http://www.thenetscenter.org/files/pastor_wes/PastorWesMastersThesis.pdf) is quite an informative read. I am no scholar, but I am somewhat amazed that this Thesis passed muster

Thank you, Todd, for this link. While I have only worked my way through the Abstract, I cannot help but notice that he quickly adds the word “apostolic” to leadership, without defining the term or demonstrating why it should be included, to form “apostolic leadership”. I cannot help but think this is an attempt to elevate the man in said ‘position’ beyond the reach and questioning of the common member.

Secondly, and perhaps more trivially, I am constantly dismayed at the quality of most theological scholarly writing. I have read through, or at least attempted to, several theses and dissertations and am amazed at what passes for academic thought (in this context) these days. I cannot help but believe that most ‘secular’ universities would send these students back to remedial classes in order to improve their thought and ability to communicate intelligence on paper. Of course, at one point I was working on a thesis-based degree at one of the SBC seminaries; the “introduction to academic research” class consisted solely of developing a 70 entry bibliography…something I had done as an undergraduate majoring in English. That should be telling enough.

Burwell Stark wrote:

“apostolic leadership”. I cannot help but think this is an attempt to elevate the man in said ‘position’ beyond the reach and questioning of the common member

Well, there’s certainly been an outbreak of that in New Calvinist churches in my area! These young reformed 30-something “apostles” and “elder” teams in their 20s-30s quickly squash theological dissent … “it’s my way or the highway” drives their belief and practice (they read that Calvin did that, too … so it’s OK).

Max wrote:

These young reformed 30-something “apostles” and “elder” teams in their 20s-30s quickly squash theological dissent … “it’s my way or the highway” drives their belief and practice (they read that Calvin did that, too … so it’s OK).

Just ask Servetus.

@ Law Prof:
Law Prof wrote:

Ted wrote:

…and we are great friends…

Ted, in all candor, here’s my hip shot opinion: that is yet to be proven and about to be tested.

At first it is OK to have differences but when the goal is ultimately control for discipline the differences mean choice and that is dangerous for them.

I have Calvinist friends. But their Calvinism does not define them or others. It does not define their relationships. They view 9 Marx discipline as a horror. They are not seeking control of others, either.

It sounds like the pastor is going to allow his power to discipline to define his relationship with the other priests in the priesthood of believer. Sad.

elastigirl wrote:

professional Christian scumbags.
off topic comment, I know, but there’s satisfaction in making it.

Sordid– to borrow the KJV from Peter and Paul’s “PE’s”.
But NOT off topic in the least.
From the local article, “members of a Sammamish church are finding new life as a branch of the mega-church Mars Hill” The kind Sammamish folks could have just sold their building and found a smaller meeting place and had “new life” that way. Or scattered like the early disciples, and brought “new life” with them.
New life = Revitalization
The NETS have changed their name precisely to add “revitalization” to “planting”.
Because, as “revitalization” inventor Stetzer has discovered, planting is hard and often fails.
And pastor Pastor includes “replanting” in the official NETS mission statement. And “replanting” comes directly from Acts29, which comes from Mars.

Dave A A wrote:

And pastor Pastor includes “replanting” in the official NETS mission statement. And “replanting” comes directly from Acts29, which comes from Mars.

Replanting sounds more like transplanting. Same old body, but invasive surgeons remove original organs and insert different ones. If the body rejects the new organs, it dies.

William wrote:

I think I’ll alert my *female* pastor about this and get her allied with some people and plant an egalitarian Episcopal Church next door to every one of their church plants.
(kidding)
(kind of)

Don’t kid! That’s how we deal with the Borg–we take out their transwarp hub, then they can’t go to all 4 quadrants of the galaxy so quickly.

In other words, yes, plant an egalitarian church next to *every* Gospel Glitteratti church you can find. 😀

lydia wrote:

@ Law Prof:
Law Prof wrote:
Ted wrote:
…and we are great friends…
Ted, in all candor, here’s my hip shot opinion: that is yet to be proven and about to be tested.
At first it is OK to have differences but when the goal is ultimately control for discipline the differences mean choice and that is dangerous for them.
I have Calvinist friends. But their Calvinism does not define them or others. It does not define their relationships. They view 9 Marx discipline as a horror. They are not seeking control of others, either.
It sounds like the pastor is going to allow his power to discipline to define his relationship with the other priests in the priesthood of believer. Sad.

It’s sad. Back in my college days nearly three decades ago, still a decade or so before before the present calvinista revolution and SBTS purge, my nondenom college group was led by two people: one who largely identified as a Calvinist and the other as an Anabaptist. Today, I think, that would be a nonstarter. But they got along great and the group flourished because no one was about forcing secondary doctrine down anyone’s throat and no one seemed to be into making secondary issues hills to die upon. We all seemed secure enough in our relationships with Jesus that we didn’t need to enforce rigid doctrinal purity, we were perhaps not quite arrogant enough to assume we had some kind of sacred lock on all truth other than Jesus as Lord and His death for our sins. That was the only hill anyone seemed to care about dying upon.

@ numo:

The Portuguese and Cape Verdean immigrants are going to be a surprise to them, too.

…and in the case of SE CT, at least, all the Greek people who have the awesome Greek food festivals at their churches. It’s also why a lot of pizza joints here serve moussaka, stuffed grape leaves and baklava along with pizza and stuff. There’s also the big ruckus sometimes when people get into arguments about The Best and Most Correct Kind of Pizza, since Greek, New Haven and NY style pizza all coexist on the CT shoreline. It’s a bit like watching Southerners argue about barbecue.

We have Portuguese people here too. There is a Portuguese Holy Ghost Society the next town over from me.

Jamie Carter wrote:

Like the word biblical, apostolic is useful for defining more specifically who can do what.

Didn’t The HUMBLE One (chuckle chuckle) originally title himself “HEAD APOSTLE”?

K.D. wrote:

Nancy2 wrote:

@ Todd Wilhelm:
So, according to Wes Pastor, the foundation of true Christianity revolves around:
1.) instructions in the Pauline letters (twisted and misinterpreted!!!)
2.) forcing women into permanent subservience
3.) blind obedience to church leaders
4.) givng until it literally hurts
5.) handsomely rewarding church leaders for lording over the congregation
Church = feudal serfdom under monarchical rule???

Sounds like a d*** cult to me….

“Cults are normally started so the Cult Leader can (1) GET RICH, (2) Get Laid, or (3) both. But the Moonies went after Political POWER from Day One.”
— my old D&D DM, decompressing with Recreational Thinking after an all-nighter

Patti wrote:

I am finding that a pledge CAN be legally binding, whereas a promise cannot, Any help here? Thanks

I don’t know about a promise-sorry-but I have been given to believe that a pledge is/can be binding. Our church is just winding up stewardship emphasis month (to use baptist words for it) and they want us to turn in pledge cards tomorrow. Some of the folks who have been there a while clued us in as to how to do that. Figure out how much you can and will give and turn in a pledge for a lot less than that. Then give over and above the pledge whatever you had decided in the first place. Gets them off your case and makes you look responsible and enthusiastic. IMO it takes a firm hand to get other people’s hand out of your wallet.

Hester wrote:

It’s a bit like watching Southerners argue about barbecue.

Kentucky:
BURGOO!!! BURGOO!!! BURGOO!!!

@ Nancy2:
And if it dies, the surgeons just move on to the next patient, not discerning the body left behind.

Hester wrote:

@ Ken P.:
The locals call them “Mass Holes”
We use that term here in CT too, but it refers to the (perceived?) recklessness/entitlement of MA drivers…

Well, I guess I pegged those drivers after one visit! They’d prefer to run you over in the crosswalk rather than stop so you can cross. My experience anyway.

Amusing NETS pamphlet (pdf), mostly about a trip to clean up a spat involving their guy in Cameroon:

http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/CCom_Ministries/media/cmc/pdf/cmc_20500101_8f29a7c2-7d9c-4463-9990-762536e7585a.pdf

Also this:

“That naturally leads to the question, “How?” How do you start churches and set up NETS satellites in foreign countries without offending or being exploited by the locals?

1. Work only in areas where some infrastructure already exists, including a stable denomination and ongoing seminary. NETS is not equipped to start from scratch in a cross-cultural setting.

2. Make contact with key denominational and seminary leaders and share the vision. Make it clear that we’re coming in as humble partners, seeking to further their organizational objectives.

3. Find candidates about whom both denomination and seminary alike are excited, and who seem to hold promise as “franchise” players for new NETS franchises.”

@ Bridget:
Yep. In Boston, they just love to run red lights, too.

elastigirl wrote:

I saw or read something once where several big US cities were evaluated on pace of life or laid backness (can’t remember). how fast its citizens drove, walked, talked, etc. Boston came in first, leaving NYC in the dust.

And everyone always says Cali drivers are the worst . . . I think Cali just has some of the worst traffic.

Bridget wrote:

And everyone always says Cali drivers are the worst . . . I think Cali just has some of the worst traffic.

No, Las Vegas has THE worst traffic.
I grew up driving Los Angeles traffic, but after the last time I had to drive Vegas traffic, I’m never getting anywhere near Vegas again.

@ elastigirl:

Boston came in first, leaving NYC in the dust.

Speaking from my experience, NO ONE walks faster than Manhattanites – seriously, I don’t know how they do it, it’s like superhuman/preternatural – so Boston must have come in first for some other reason.

@ Hester:
Not everyone does thst, though New Yorkers talk fadter than just about anyone.

D.C. people sre, generally speaking, Fast Walkers. They even walk/run up and down *working* Metro station escalators *during rush hour.*

@ Hester:

“NO ONE walks faster than Manhattanites – seriously, I don’t know how they do it, it’s like superhuman/preternatural – so Boston must have come in first for some other reason.”
++++++++++++++++

it’s funny, how people adjust and adapt to the way things are where they live. I visited a friend who lives in another city 6 hours away. she’s totally laid back. but behind the wheel in her van, all of a sudden she’s manic, in a nervous hurry, driving as fast as possible at all times. just to go get cereal. I noticed everyone was driving like that in her town.

I’d like to think i’m above all that — but i’m sure I succumb as well.

Dave A A wrote:

Tina wrote:
More often than not, they were told that they weren’t really Christians in the first place and that they needed to be rebaptized.
I can’t recall if I mentioned before that I have a daughter in the ICOC. She became convinced she wasn’t re:ally a Christian in the first place and needed to be re:baptized. Her first baptism, by her father who was at the time a pastor and a failing church-planter (tried to “plant” in a poverty-stricken locale) just wasn’t re:al.
Of course, good ol’ Kip McKean would probably want the whole ICOC to be re:baptized, since they’re no longer re:al disciples and not “sold out”.

I’m too familiar with this story, Dave. 🙁

While everyone here is speculating about a stealth Calvinista takeover of New England, the really interesting phenomenon is being overlooked: the rise of NAR and NAR- wannabes in this region. Just start with one website, let’s say The Connecticut House of Prayer, and then in the words of David Horowitz (yes, I’m mixing domains here), “discover the network.” Absolutely fascinating….

@ Deb:
Yes, I’m talking about New Apostolic Reformation.

Here’s the link to CTHOP
https://hartford prayer.com/

The David Horowitz reference was kinda obscure; sorry if it was confusing. Horowitz is a former Sixties radical who has become a neoconservative. One of his projects is “Discover the Networks”– showing how different left-wing political and cultural movements interconnect. The concept and process (i.e., identifying interconnections between groups) is what interests me, more so than the particular political agenda behind it.

Getting back to CTHOP website: Check out their Links at the bottom. You’ll quickly see there are *lots* of NE churches who are getting into the orbit of this movement. Many more so than are caught up with 9Marks etc

Also, check out Holly Pivec’s website http://spiritoferror.org/ She’s no crackpot. The book she co-wrote is pretty solid.

@ Asahel Nettleton:
It’s dot.com; at leadt, Google says so.

And yes, they are an NAR group, based on the pattetn established by the Interantional House of Prayer in KC MO, which is a cult. Mike Bickle is the head honco there. I really cannot nd will not refer to them as a “church”; they are WAY out there. I’ve had a lot of convos with a survivor (from the Mothership) on another site. I’d recommend doing some background research on the NAR, and on IHOP itself.

Is the SBC now officially a neo Calvinist denomination with uber arrogance?

@numo – two things: 1) SE CT has never been accused of being a racially integrated place, although it has gotten better, possibly due to the casinos. 2) People in DC do not play especially when they are headed home from work. If you ride the metro, stand on the right side of the escalators and out of my way. I want to get off the metro as soon as I can!