What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)?

"The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation."

C. Peter Wagner

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Bible in Hand

As Warren Throckmorton has aptly pointed out, it was one year ago today that Janet Mefferd conducted her fateful interview with Mark Driscoll.  And the rest, as they say, is history… 

There can be little doubt that Driscoll will be returning to the ministry.  If and when he does, we can't help but wonder which 'tribe' he will be aligning himself with this time?  Will it be the Association of Related Churches (ARC) or some other church planting group?

In our most recent post, Dee linked to the Prayer Force Training Guide, which is being implemented at some churches in the ARC network.  The section on Spiritual Warfare (Week Nine, p. 113) was a definite red flag.  As Dee explained in her previous posts, we are venturing into unfamiliar territory as we explore this corner of Christendom.  But explore it we must!

In our previous post Building the ARC, we mentioned that Rick Warren's church hosted this year's ARC conference.  Interestingly, one of Rick Warren's professors at Fuller Seminary has been credited with founding the New Apostolic Reformation.  His name is C. Peter Wagner, whom some describe as a church growth specialist.  (It would be interesting to know whether Warren and Wagner have stayed in contact over the years.)

Not only that, Wagner has written extensively on spiritual warfare.  When we come across concepts such as spiritual warfare in a training guide used by churches in the ARC, we have to wonder to what extent, if any, the New Apostolic Reformation is influencing the leaders in this church planting network (ARC). 

In an effort to educate ourselves about a movement that began in 2001 called the New Apostolic Reformation, we thought we would share our findings here. 

Three years ago C. Peter Wagner was interviewed by NPR.  After that interview, Wagner weighed in by writing an article featured in Charisma News.   Here is how he described the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).

What Is the NAR?

The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine. It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam. Christianity is booming now in the Global South which includes sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and large parts of Asia. Most of the new churches in the Global South, even including many which belong to denominations, would comfortably fit the NAR template.

The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. This is not a doctrinal change. We adhere to the major tenets of the Reformation: the authority of Scripture, justification by faith, and the priesthood of all believers. But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

The NAR is not an organization. No one can join or carry a card. It has no leader. I have been called the “founder,” but this is not the case. One reason I might be seen as an “intellectual godfather” is that I might have been the first to observe the movement, give a name to it, and describe its characteristics as I saw them. When this began to come together through my research in 1993, I was professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary, where I taught for 30 years.

Wagner retired from Fuller Seminary in 2001 and is currently involved with Global Spheres.  He has made available his article The New Apostolic Reformation at this website, and he has some interesting remarks regarding modern-day apostles.  Here is what he wrote:

Apostolic governance. As I mentioned before, this is probably the most radical change. I take literally St. Paul's words that Jesus, at His ascension into heaven, "gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry" (Ephesians 4:11-12). Most of traditional Christianity accepts evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not apostles and prophets. I think that all five are given to be active in churches today. In fact, St. Paul goes on to say, "And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…" (1 Corinthians 12:28). This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.

I strongly object to journalists using the adjective "self-appointed" or "self-declared" when referring to apostles. No true apostle is self-appointed. First of all, they are gifted by God for that ministry. Secondly, the gift and its fruit are recognized by peers and the apostle is "set in" or "commissioned" to the office of apostle by other respected and qualified leaders.

Furthermore, Wagner had this to say about prophets in his article.

The office of prophet. Prophets are prominent in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As we just saw above, apostles are first and prophets are second. Every apostle needs alignment with prophets and every prophet needs apostolic alignment. One of the reasons why both should be active in our churches today is that the Bible says, "Surely God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). And also: "Believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper" (2 Chronicles 20:20). I want to prosper and I want you to prosper.

C. Peter Wagner ends his article with this unsettling explanation about the structure of the New Apostolic Reformation.

Relational Structures

Some of the authors I read expressed certain frustrations because they found it difficult to get their arms around the NAR. They couldn't find a top leader or even a leadership team. There was no newsletter. The NAR didn't have an annual meeting. There was no printed doctrinal statement or code of ethics. This was very different from dealing with traditional denominations. The reason behind this is that, whereas denominations are legal structures, the NAR is a relational structure. Everyone is related to, or aligned, with an apostle or apostles. This alignment is voluntary. There is no legal tie that binds it. In fact, some have dual alignment or multiple alignment. Apostles are not in competition with each other, they are in cahoots. They do not seek the best for themselves, but for those who choose to align with them. If the spotlight comes on them, they will accept it, but they do not seek it.

The key to this? The mutual and overriding desire that "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!"

And, of course, the final statement leads some to believe that C. Peter Wagner is a dominionist, which he appears to deny in the wake of the NPR interview.  We'll save this topic for another post. 

What we find extremely unsettling is Wagner's wishy washy description of the NAR —

"the NAR is a relational structure. Everyone is related to, or aligned, with an apostle or apostles. This alignment is voluntary. There is no legal tie that binds it. In fact, some have dual alignment or multiple alignment."

What in the world does that mean?  And who are the key players? 

When the one who 'first observed the movement' (as he explained it) is this vague about the NAR and who is involved, it deeply concerns us.  Why all the secrecy? 

Finally, here is C. Peter Wagner talking about NAR in such a nondescript manner that I still don't know anything about it.

Looks like there is much they don't want us to know about the inner-workings of their organization… 

In case you're as confused as we are about the New Apostolic Reformation, here is John MacArthur providing a helpful explanation.  This clip has been edited, but you can listen to the entire segment here

How interesting that this movement began the same year that Wagner retired.  wink

Lydia's Corner:   Genesis 23:1-24:51   Matthew 8:1-17   Psalm 9:13-20   Proverbs 3:1-6

Comments

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? — 228 Comments

  1. Well, in my experience, the NAR is the closest thing to a modern religious secret society as it gets. It is my personal belief that this ‘organization’ has infiltrated deep and wide throughout Christendom and is gaining adherents rapidly. Honestly, as frustrated and even angry as I get at the Neo-Calvinists, the just annoy me. The NAR does more than annoy me – it scares me. They want to have control of the government through back-door connections until key posts are controlled by actual NAR members. One of my fears is that this group will gain not just political power (they already have that to a degree) but actual executive power. That is the stuff of nightmares.

    Oh, and first. 🙂

  2. How interesting that some of Wagner’s people went to the Himalayas in 1997 and supposedly dethroned a female demon in something the refer to as Operation Ice Cantle. For more info., please plug this into Google: “Killing Mother Teresa with their Prayers.” It’s the title of a *most* interesting article that would be funny if it wasn’t so appalling. They believe that both Princess Diana and Mother Teresa *died* as a direct result of their supposed strategic level spiritual warfare.

    While I’m willing to grant that Wagner and his crew are religious to a fault, i honestly believe their religion is *not* xtianity in any sense and that it is a cult. I’ve seen NAR nonsense close up and believe me, these folks go to great lengths to both conceal their true beliefs from outsiders and lie about them (shamelessly) when they feel it necessary. Not only that, they fielded a vice presidential candidate in 2008. (Hint: it wasn’t Joe Biden.)

    I personally would love to write them off as far fringe, but the truth is that they’ve developed great political and social clout since the late 80s, and they show no signs of stopping.

    See also 7 Mountains, Joel’s Army, and the Latter Rain movement in the 40s-60s. They’re all connected, though various NAR groups often have their own ideas that can and do conflict with ideas espoused by other NAR groups.

    Above all, these people hide their strategies and *they LIE.* Big time. They will not reveal their true beliefs to outsiders. I know this because i was present during many services where lapel mikes were covered up and/or recording equipment was turned off at strategic points.

    See also YWAM and the Sentinel Group, run by former YWAM staffer George Otis Jr. That Church (the one that booted me) has close ties to both, and is therefore networked with people like Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets and *Benny Hinn,* who was pulled into the YWAM fold over a decade ago.

    Finally, i commend to you Rachel Tabatchnik’s incredibly well-researched series on the NAR over at talk2action.org Don’t be distracted by their politics – just go for the link to her series. She *really* knows her stuff and was interviewed on NPR’s Fresh Air a few years ago. Program should be easy to find in their archives, along with an interview (if you can call it that) with C. Peter Wagner, which aired the following day. Dee has heard it, i know – Wagner just would not give straight answers to anything in order to try and keep his real beliefs and agenda under wraps. Didn’t work out too well for him, though.

  3. @ Jeannette Altes:

    Said NAR church had many key government staffers as members, though most defected to the Falls Church (formerly an Episcopal church and notable for having a *huge* number of cabinet members – of GWB's 2nd term – in the house).

    You would all be very afraid if you knew just how deeply rooted these people are in Washington political culture. The Neo-Cals don't have that kind of clout and never will. I agree with Jeanette in her fears for the executive branch, though I'd add the Supreme Court to that as well.

  4. @ Jeannette Altes:

    What they want is a theocracy. They want to unite government (federal, state and local), business, the arts and everything else under their banner. The 7 Mountains mission statements are among the most recent reiterations of their ideas.

    Additionally, contemporary worship song with NAR-inspired lyrics have been out there for a while, but some key phrases ("dancers will dance upon injustice," for example) don't mean much unless you know what they're actually referring to.

    I wish I was making this up – all of it. It certainly sounds like it comes from a bad movie script written by conspiracy theorists, but it's all to real.

  5. I don’t perceive sound teaching here. It sounds similar to me to charms, spells, and voodoo dolls. Years ago I attended a small group prayer meeting of an evangelical baptist church. About two thirds of the small group had charismatic inclinations. Some of the visions and focus on demons concerned me. I didn’t see bolts of color or auras and the focus on demons seemed unbalanced. I heard that someone in group refused to allow their child to have surgery because it would be against their belief in faith healing. I don’t get it. Sorry.

  6. numo wrote:

    I wish I was making this up – all of it. It certainly sounds like it comes from a bad movie script written by conspiracy theorists, but it’s all to real.

    I believe it. It’s already happened with the moral majority movement of the 80’s. Tim LaHaye wasn’t secretive about what he wanted it all; he basically did advocate for soft theocracy. No old testament executions but the government would be completely controlled by Christians. This time though it appears they’re trying to be much calmer and controlled.

    Do you actually think they’d be able to do anything besides lower public opinion of Christians, though? I’m slightly skeptical of their capabilities.

  7. @ numo:

    Theocracy is exactly right. And in addition to governmental/political ‘strategic’ infiltration, they are infiltrating churches.

    One of the things that I was sucked into for a time was the Elijah List. I checked and it is still going. It was started by a man named Steve Schultz whose background is in the Vineyard. Chuck Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets and Kim Clement (among others) are regular ‘prophetic’ writers for this website.

    It is interesting to me how visceral my reaction to this series is. I still have fear of these guys and their ‘mojo.’ Sigh. As rough as the YRR and Neo-Cals have played with our lovable blog queens, in my opinion, they are mere street thugs and the NAR is La Familia.

    I wish we were making it up, too. I don’t talk about it much because most people I know are either into the surface teachings the NAR uses to ‘rally the troops,’ or just flat think I’m nuts. Sometimes, I wonder that myself. They will use psychological warfare – they’re masters at it.

    A couple of years ago, a friend gave me a book and I started looking through it – had a funny feeling about it – looked on the back cover and saw the name C Peter Wagner and my knee-jerk reaction was to throw it across the room – like I had just been bitten.

  8. numo wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:
    What they want is a theocracy. They want to unite government (federal, state and local), business, the arts and everything else under their banner. The 7 Mountains mission statements are among the most recent reiterations of their ideas.

    Additionally, contemporary worship song with NAR-inspired lyrics have been out there for a while, but some key phrases (“dancers will dance upon injustice,” for example) don’t mean much unless you know what they’re actually referring to.

    I wish i was making this up – all of it. It certainly sounds like it comes from a bad movie script written by conspiracy theorists, but it’s all to real.

    Am familiar with the 7 Mountains mission. Know a few homeschooling families who parrot the dominionist rhetoric. Not sure how much of an impact they are having in the political realm. The 2008 vp was shown to be a very unsuitable candidate. Still, I have read through various conspiracy articles, which insist half the R Party is tied into the 7 Mountains. I do believe there are conservative Christians who get caught up in the mantra of ”restoring” America without really understanding what that specifically entails, according to dominionists.

  9. numo wrote:

    How interesting that some of Wagner’s people went to the Himalayas in 1997 and supposedly dethroned a female demon in something the refer to as Operation Ice Castle.

    Ok, now you’re scaring me. I looked this up and even my Pentecostal mom laughed at it, and she said these people are trying to be like a Christian illuminati.

    I’m pretty sure I’ve had a pastor from Africa involved in this pray for healing for me. Afterwards my mom and I looked him up, and we found these creepy “transformations” videos. The same series referenced in the article. :(

    I didn’t investigate them any further because I just wrote them off as a nutty fringe group.

    This is starting to get creepy.

  10. There are a lot of medical conditions which do or can cause symptoms which these people would term demonic. Some are psychiatric conditions, of course, but some are not. Of the few history courses I actually had in school, in the history of medicine there is evidence of some really awful stuff that has been done to people with medical conditions when they were regarded as evidence of demonic activity.
    We must not under any circumstance let that sort of thing happen again. Ever.

    Let me give just one example: ocular migraine headaches and the things people see and experience during that particular kind of migraine episode. A quick google is better than any explanation I might attempt. There are even “pictures” of the sort of things these people can see as part of the aura. This is neither from the devil or from the Holy Spirit. Dear goodness, humanity must not do this again.

    I don’t scare very easily, but this business scares me.

  11. Wagner’s not very good with words, is he? Some Freudian slips here.

    Firstly, he says:

    ‘This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.’

    Sounds very much like a hierarchy to me, Pete.

    Secondly:

    ‘Apostles are not in competition with each other, they are in cahoots.’

    Yes, I’ll bet they’re in cahoots. But does he know what cahoots means? Here in the UK at least it means a secret partnership and questionable collaboration. Sounds about right.

  12. I do note one encouraging thing. Apparently these people did not get too far in trying to control the catholic, orthodox, anglican or established protestant churches. They seem to have struck out on their own out of necessity, and for secrecy like you all are saying. It seems that christianity has its own brand of the misguided and dangerous who want to establish a christian equivalent of a caliphate.

    That is just all we need.

  13. I have studied this stuff for several years and it was the beginning of the reasons I started to rethink church. I also believe these connections are a spider web with tentacles that are far reaching -meaning many denominations are connected but each has a specific goal of reaching a certain targeted group of people. Remember both Warren and Piper went to Fuller. What is being taught at Fuller and other seminaries? Is the teaching of dominionism more pervasive then we thought?

  14. “This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.”

    In practice it functions exactly like a hierarchy.
    It’s called the “five-fold” ministry. The way my former cult taught it was that the apostle was the thumb. He alone, as the only “opposable” member of the hand, can minister to all the other “fingers” (the prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers). The apostle is what other organizations might call the “vision caster.” He gives direction, and everyone else follows.

  15. One of the quotes in this article has C. Peter Wagner stating: “The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine.”

    This illustrates one of the problems with the term cult. While the core doctrine appears to be perfectly orthodox, in their practices, the whole thing has the distinct look of Persian dualism, with agents of good on one side, agents of evil on the other, and people starting out in the neutral center but being in a tug-of-war that pulls them either one way or the other by whichever forces. So that is not exactly Christian orthodoxy nor orthopraxy — despite holding to the Apostles’ Creed.

    Second problem is that there is such a thing as a sociological cult, namely, a group, organization, or society with an authoritarian rulership. For instance, “the cult of Mao” in Communist China. This kind of societal cult can be secular or religious in overall philosophy, while still implementing tactics that maintain a “psychology of totalism” in controlling every aspect of life among its citizens or adherents.

    From the examples readers have shared in the TWW posts on ARC and the NAR, it seems apparent that the spiritual warfare doctrines and authoritarian leadership of the NAR keep people locked into very specific patterns that control their lives. This post adds to that the “prophetic words” of apostles and prophets that are taken as authoritative as God-breathed Scripture – often (perhaps always?) with warnings about curses or blessings that go with disobedience or obedience to these extra-biblical “words.”

    So, I’d suggest that the New Apostolic Reformation has elements of both and is in fact both a Christian and sociological cult.

    The classic criteria for a sociological cult were developed by Robert Jay Lifton from research interviews he did in the middle- to late-1950s with released political prisoners of the cultural Revolution in China. If interested in details, I’ve introduced them in this post and detailed them in the two posts that follow that:

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/:

  16. I will cop to being both a long-term Christian and a long-term resident of the Babylon-on-the-Potomac region. Both streams of experience have taught me that conspiracy theories are typically not the best explanation for anything, either in politics or religion. To borrow a phrase from John Constantine, “You keep telling me there is a conspiracy. Now, convince me.” 😉

  17. That whole concept of “alignment” is really insidious. To me, it comes across as similar to the “umbrellas of protection” from Bill Gothard, yet another hierarchical means of control. It may *sound* like a “decentralized network” with no stair-step hierarchy to it, but that is not the net effect in practice. This leadership group forms a layer between disciples and God. They mediate the Spirit’s message, because individual Christians cannot “see” it or get it on their own. [This seems all too similar to Mark Driscoll’s approach at Mars Hill, basically providing an authoritative interpretation that was “all about Jesus” while instilling submission to an authoritarian regime. So, if he ends up associated with ARC, which seems highly connected with the NAR, it all comes full circle and makes a lot of sense.]

    These Councils of Apostles and Prophets are all voluntarily aligned, but they endorse people whose ministries or activities they approve, they commend each other’s “words” of direct revelation supposedly from the Holy Spirit.

    However, we witnessed a striking example in 2008 of how this “alignment” went wonky: the Lakeland (Florida) Outpouring. There the NAR high echelon leadership group gave their endorsement of Todd Bentley in a huge show of solidarity and confirmation of one another’s prophetic predictions about what God was doing, the giftings and calling of Todd Bentley, etc etc etc. And something like six weeks later, it came to light that Mr. Bentley had been in an inappropriate relationship with a woman on the worship/ministry team, and in the fiasco that followed, he eventually was divorced from his wife, married the other woman, and took up active public ministry again.

    It was particular weird to watch the scrambling of these NAR leaders, most of whom threw their hands up in a don’t-pin-this-on-me gesture when weeks earlier they’d authoritatively laid hands on Mr. Bentley to acknowledge their approval of him, his ministry, and what God was doing.

    How is it that so very many “aligned” co-leaders of a non-hierarchical network of voluntary connections could ALL get this so very very wrong?

    The first major case study I wrote after I started research work on spiritual abuse and toxic systems was on “Kingdom Leadership After Lakeland.” It looks at what happened, and especially how the leaders failed to take responsibility after publicly and elaborately endorsing Todd Bentley. If interested, here is the link to the first article in the series. A timeline and cast of NAR characters is in Part 2, and analysis and suggestions for moving from intervention to prevention of such abusive practices is in Part 3.

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/kingdom-leadership-after-lakeland-part-1-discernment-and-the-costly-descent-into-darkness/

  18. Not to mention the doctrine which I’ve observed for years, my one conclusion regarding the leadership of this movement can be summed up in one word: Ego.

  19. @ numo:
    I am looking forward to discussing Wagner and his *knowledge* of demons who rule countries. We should have done this sooner.

  20. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    This illustrates one of the problems with the term cult. While the core doctrine appears to be perfectly orthodox, in their practices, the whole thing has the distinct look of Persian dualism, with agents of good on one side, agents of evil on the other, and people starting out in the neutral center but being in a tug-of-war that pulls them either one way or the other by whichever forces. So that is not exactly Christian orthodoxy nor orthopraxy — despite holding to the Apostles’ Creed.

    Great comment. Remember when John Piper said he "loved Mark Driscoll's theology?" He said "We stand together on glorious truths." It looks like the hierarchy of Piper is Reformed, and Reformed only. It doesn't matter what else you get involved in. I am looking forward to seeing if Piper has anything to say if Driscoll goes down this road.

  21. @ Deb:
    Loved the intro to this stuff. Thank you for bringing up Wagner. He fascinates me (do not take this in a positive sense.)

  22. Eeyore wrote:

    To borrow a phrase from John Constantine, “You keep telling me there is a conspiracy. Now, convince me.”

    Deb will tell you that I am the most anti-conspiracy theorist she knows. That is why we are going to use links for everything that we write on this subject. I do know one thing-NPR has been following Peter Wagner and others for years.

  23. @ Nancy:
    I have sat through teachings that flat state that there was no such thing as mental illness. It is all just demon possession. As recently as 3 yeas ago. Haven’t had a desire to be in a church since.

    As the preacher described the symptoms of PTSD (symptoms I experiened from childhood), he labelled them demonic and and proceeded to describe the ‘cure’ which, among other things, included “pounding the Word Of God into them like a hammer.” This included, if necessary, being physically hit with a bible. This stuff is scary. They teach that “depression is a sin and Christians have no business being depressed.”

    Imagine growing up with this teaching while simultaneously being sexually, emotionally and physically abused…with a narcissist for a mother. They create (mental illness) what they deride as demonic. Now, imagine combining these things with nuethetic counseling……

  24. @ Eeyore:

    I agree with what you say about conspiracies, but there is a thing called discernment and wisdom given to us by God……” and if it walks like a duck, it is a duck”. One can discern patterns of deception after you look and research it.
    I don’t like to jump to conclusions either, but one thing I know with these guys is they have the money, resources and the lawyers to inoculate anyone from finding out the real truth anyways. So yes, they will claim anyone a conspirator who tries.

  25. @ Nancy:
    Ikwym about ocular migraines, having had them, complete with the “fortification illusion” passing across my field of vision. Neurologist Oliver Sacks explains this *very* well (with great illustrations) in his book titled Migraine. (For lay readers, but not dumbed-down.)

  26. numo wrote:

    Finally, i commend to you Rachel Tabatchnik’s incredibly well-researched series on the NAR over at talk2action.org Don’t be distracted by their politics – just go for the link to her series. She *really* knows her stuff and was interviewed on NPR’s Fresh Air a few years ago.

    Made me look.
    I’m glad someone has been on this.
    http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/9/9/133916/9724

    “What happens to those who want no part of the vision of the “Kingdom” of Glazier, Caballeros or Wagner? What happens to the individuals or “people groups” the NAR describes as an obstruction to this utopia on earth? In the worldview of the NAR, those resisting their movement are controlled by demons and the cause of ongoing droughts, crime, corruption, poverty, and illness in their communities.”

  27. For the past few years I thought Driscoll was a jerk who ended up with his own church and personal PR campaign. Annoying, a guy who should not be in leadership, but quite redeemable and if he was able to be discipled, someone who could be a mature Christian at some point in his life if he wanted to be.

    Meanwhile, I thought the rise and bizarre habits of the NAR was the big story that was being missed. This stuff isn’t just strange, it’s growing in influence in some pretty huge ways: and it also has a far larger affair count and body count than Mars Hill ever had. If you’ve sung much from Bethel, Jesus Culture, or International House of Prayer, you’ve sung music where Wager’s NAR is flourishing.

    Seriously, check out Boze Herrington’s account of his time in a cultic group that happened to be at IHOP at the time. He and those freed of the cult have zero good words for the group, and when a friend died in the group IHOP responded by bringing people over to scream in tongues at them until someone confessed to a murder (the confession was just thrown out, mostly because spiritual abuse isn’t exactly a good way to get info out of people). Also Google “What Rolling Stone Didn’t Tell You About Tyler Deaton.” IHOP ignored warnings, covered up relationships, and took credit when they claimed to have solved a problem.

    Meanwhile Bethel Church in Redding has their kids laying on graves attempting to soaking up the “anointing” of dead revivalists, and infamously had an incident where kids let a friend die in an accident instead of calling 911 because their pastor insinuated there was a lack of faith involved. Both Bethel and IHOP are filled with self-appointed apostles and prophets — and a growing number of broken lives and shattered faiths as well.

  28. Several comments have come up about political and cultural control, dominion theology, and the like. You don’t have to be a Rushdoony Reconstructionist with its Reformed theology in order to be out to control the world system …

    And how intriguing that the New Apostolic Reformation seems to be a hothouse for promoting the “Seven Mountains of Culture” form of social control. So, perhaps dominionism is a key overlap area where Mark Driscoll can find that happy “medium” where his form of New Calvinism fits with NAR Pentecostalism.

    Anyway, FWIW, dominionism is big stuff on my not-so-big blog. In January 2009, I posted an article on dominionism called *Examining “The Seven Mountains Movement*, and it’s turned out to consistently have THE most searches and hits of any post I’ve done — 11,500 hits out of the total 113,144 hits in that blog’s entire lifetime. I’m certainly not any sort of major blog at all, but when 10% of people who come to your blog are linking to that article, seems to me that the topic itself must be something of major concern.

    Even a couple of secular sources have linked to it periodically, one of which labeled me as a “theological moderate” in my critique. When they’ve done that, the hit count has jumped up to something like 300 hits on this post in just one week.

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/examining-the-seven-mountains-movement/

  29. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    The first major case study I wrote after I started research work on spiritual abuse and toxic systems was on “Kingdom Leadership After Lakeland.” It looks at what happened, and especially how the leaders failed to take responsibility after publicly and elaborately endorsing Todd Bentley.

    In my experience, the failure to take responsibility could be the defacto battle cry of leaders in this theological system. It happens regarding sexual, spiritual, or financial abuse.

    Numo is right. They will simply lie to cover it up.

  30. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ Nancy:
    I have sat through teachings that flat state that there was no such thing as mental illness. It is all just demon possession. As recently as 3 yeas ago. Haven’t had a desire to be in a church since.
    As the preacher described the symptoms of PTSD (symptoms I experiened from childhood), he labelled them demonic and and proceeded to describe the ‘cure’ which, among other things, included “pounding the Word Of God into them like a hammer.” This included, if necessary, being physically hit with a bible. This stuff is scary. They teach that “depression is a sin and Christians have no business being depressed.”
    Imagine growing up with this teaching while simultaneously being sexually, emotionally and physically abused…with a narcissist for a mother. They create (mental illness) what they deride as demonic. Now, imagine combining these things with nuethetic counseling……

    Big difference. There are people who are possessed and you will never know it…if these people will set back the treatment of mentally ill people, and depression is an illness, it isn’t demonic possession.
    There are a huge number of teachers who suffer from depression. I’ve seen it first hand, deal with knot heads all day, clueless administrators, and then people like Fox News or politicians attack the profession…..well, you’d get depressed too….

  31. From the article (which I’ve read about half of so far):

    The NAR is definitely not a cult.

    Well, yes, but then they all say that, don’t they? I hear this and I can’t help recalling a letter, which Grandpa Simpson reads as he types it:

    “Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.

    I am not a crackpot.”

    Oh, yes you are, Grandpa.

    Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine.

    Means nothing. It’s all well and good, but you can have all the right creeds, and still act controlling and treat people like garbage.

  32. P.S. I’d appreciate any prayers for the people of Nagano. A powerful quake struck there just two hours ago. I felt it slightly where I live (not Nagano), but only a bit of swaying. Reports are trickling in about damage — some wrecked roads, some collapsed buildings in small villages, and residents thought to be trapped inside. Please pray healing for the injured, and strength for the rescue workers.

  33. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    In my experience, the failure to take responsibility could be the defacto battle cry of leaders in this theological system. It happens regarding sexual, spiritual, or financial abuse.

    Numo is right. They will simply lie to cover it up.

    To quote that well-known philosopher … okay, so it was Stan Lee via *Spider-Man*, “With great power comes great responsibility.”

    Almost all of these men and women of the NAR Councils of Apostles and Prophets held huge authority, but refused the attendant responsibility — at least in the Lakeland debacle. That’s a good signal of taking a bad turn.

  34. @ numo:

    It certainly did not work well for them and this is how it should be.

    Every administration has its fringe groups that were die hard supporters and many end up in government jobs.

  35. I first went overseas as a missionary in 1985. I would occasionally run into people who aligned with many of the teachings described in your post. They came from a variety of churches, most of them charismatic. The seem to have have organized their teaching/strategies into something that can be better replicated at the local church level. If you live in the developing world, where you often seem to be totally at the mercy of the evil happening around you-illness, famine, war–this kind of stuff catches on quickly. When I was in Colombia in the mid-80s/early 90s, I often heard miraculous stories that could never be confirmed, but they certainly gave people hope. Not my kind of theology at all, but the desperate will grab on when nothing else is working.

  36. @ numo:
    I too have chronic migraines and I sure as heck don’t want them labeled as anything else, especially demons. I will definitely be reading the book you suggested as I have had migraines for as long as I can remember. I honestly forgot that “normal” people don’t experience migraines regularly until my husband panicked.

    As far as my health problems go, I have had many people who subscribe to such thinking tell me that I just haven’t prayed hard enough and I obviously don’t have enough faith. Otherwise God would have healed me by now instead of allowing conditions to continue for close to twenty years. I guess I take a different viewpoint. I am content to rest in Him knowing that physical healing won’t occur this side of heaven but when I finally do get to heaven it will be even more glorious to me. I take comfort in the idea of no pain, no wheelchairs, no being afraid of foods that will cause allergic reactions – that is all stuff I get excited about.

    Back to the original topic of the post. I have a very hard time with men and women who declare themselves to be “prophets” or leaders. I have spent many hours at my husband’s store sitting in a corner, book in hand and simply observing. What I have seen is that the true leaders in the store are those who quietly and humbly do their jobs. The others in the store look up to these men and women and respectfully seek out and listen to their wisdom. These true leaders don’t have to do a thing to declare their power for they assume none. There is an interim gm who puffs himself up and demands to be in charge but he is the least respected, least- listened to person at the store.

  37. In my experience, any “church” that claims to,have apostles is a cult, starting with the strange, highly liturgical Catholic Apostolic Church in the UK in the early 1800s, which became defunct; much of its property is held by a trust which leased it to the Greek Orthodox on a long term basis.

    To say that you are an apostle is to put yourself out as an equal to the Twelve Disciples and 70 Holy Apostles, and St. Paul. It shows a profound lack of humility; to claim apostolic succession is one thing, but to say that you are part of an elite club with Peter, Paul, Thomas, Barnabas, Jude and friends, a club that has been dormant since around AD 95, with the last major Christian who grew up as a disciple of an Apostle, Polycarp, being killed in the mid 2nd century, is insane.

    Who is to say furthermore that bishops, priests, missionaries and theologians are not functionally equivalent to the original apostles, albeit with the humility to not call themselves such, and that such hierarchs are devoid of prophetic gifts? When a missionary successfully figures out how to convert people in an anti Christian regime like the PRC, is that not prophecy in a sense, or at the very least, the fruit of divine inspiration from the Holy Spirit? I have heard of the NAR before, unlike ARC; they are old, well established and dangerous. Kyrie eleison.

  38. I spent all day yesterday reading Holly Pivec and Rachel Tabachnick’s information on NAR, which led me to Resistance is Futile by Chris Rosebrough. Have you heard of Dan Sutherland? Well, that will lead you to Peter Drucker. And then you might be tempted to consider a conspiracy theory.
    I don’t care who speaks in tongues. I don’t care if your music is loud and you have flat screen TVs. I do care if you claim extra biblical revelation through modern day prophets, because some people will believe the prophet over the Word. That’s how they lose focus on the Gospel and begin to think that Christians can take over the world and make it a better place. Now look up Empowered 21.

  39. NAR is growing faster than the world’s population, but it can’t be identified by metrics anyone would actually be able to identify? That makes for a handy movement to keep below the radar. It also suggests that the movement isn’t as large as they think. Of course, a movement doesn’t have to be large to be in charge.

    On their church structure doctrine, what are they worried about? If their interpretation of scripture is correct and the church does not exist without prophets and apostles, then apostles and prophets are in the church today as evidenced by the fact that the church still exists. Or am I being too tautological?

  40. Soooo, a question. How well do you think this is known outside the United States? Would Islamic countries for example, be aware of the NAR’s reach?

  41. And another query I had relating to the ARC group. Perhaps @LT or anyone else could answer. Is there still any evidence of “holy laughter” or the “Toronto blessing” in these churches, or elsewherer?

  42. Canna Berrong wrote:

    I do care if you claim extra biblical revelation through modern day prophets, because some people will believe the prophet over the Word. That’s how they lose focus on the Gospel and begin to think that Christians can take over the world and make it a better place.

    It completely takes the focus off Jesus and his gospel. And your point about changing the world through their own rule reminds me of 19th century post-millennial utopianism.

    Perhaps the NAR motto should be: “Making the world a better place for Jesus, because he’s not here to do it himself.”

  43. Haitch wrote:

    How well do you think this is known outside the United States? Would Islamic countries for example, be aware of the NAR’s reach?

    he NAR movement accounts for much of the phenomenal growth of Christianity taking place in the Global South—that is, Africa, Asia and Latin America, according to data from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. In fact, the NAR movement is part of the fastest-growing segment of non-Catholic Christianity worldwide—a segment these researchers call the “Independent” or “Postdenominational” segment—with more than 369 million participants.

    http://www.spiritoferror.org/2013/04/the-nar-movement-worldwide/3016

  44. You know, I think the NAR is interesting, but in point of fact, I would argue that the US government has already been infiltrated by a group called “The Family” / “The Fellowship.” It’s a secretive organization that is otherwise not known except that it puts on the National Prayer Breakfast every year.

    Here’s the Wikipedia article on the organization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_(Christian_organization)

    Jeff Sharlet has written a couple of books about the organization as well.

    One of the reasons I am not supportive of Hillary Clinton’s run for the Presidency is her close ties to “The Family.” But she’s not the only one.

    Now if you want a conspiracy, there’s one for you!

  45. Haitch wrote:

    Soooo, a question. How well do you think this is known outside the United States? Would Islamic countries for example, be aware of the NAR’s reach?

    Or would Israel, for that matter? Sorry, big international relations questions. I don’t expect them to be answered, just asking the question.

  46. Haitch wrote:

    Or would Israel, for that matter? Sorry, big international relations questions. I don’t expect them to be answered, just asking the question

    Haitch, I have a comment in moderation that may answer this question.

  47. @ Haitch:

    The same link I provided above also states this with accompanying validation:

    I’ve also learned that the NAR movement is making inroads in several countries of the former Soviet Union, especially Ukraine. To counter this trend, a influential apologetics ministry in Russia recently translated an article I wrote to warn over 1,500 Russian ministers and activists about the unbiblical teachings. See it here.

  48. Thanks a lot, Mirele. I can not spend all day on the internet again!!!
    And, believe me, I don’t want a conspiracy. Thanks to the Deebs for getting the information out. Praying some eyes will be opened.

  49. Canna Berrong wrote:

    which led me to Resistance is Futile by Chris Rosebrough.

    Oh, my goodness! Thank you for that. I’m going to listen to the presentation when I get a chance. The whole “community” thing was exactly what I fell for. It’s very appealing. Several commenters on TWW have wondered if the appeal of cults is related to our loss of “community” here in the U.S. There may be some truth to that. What you will get in a “community” with Apostolic leadership is not what most people have in mind when they sign up. You will be used to serve the “Apostle’s” vision until you are no longer of value.

    Someone said up above that there will be more bodies under this bus. I think they may be right. No wonder it holds appeal to Driscoll.

  50. @ Victorious:

    The word apostle has been around in some protestant traditions for a while. Also, don’t the mormons use that term? The word apostolic is part of the name of some churches (church groups?) at least I see it on church vans from time to time. And does not the RCC use the tern apostolate in one sense for what we might call “mission” or “directive” or “vision to be accomplished”? something like that. And there was a movie “The Apostle” about somebody on the model of Elmer Gantry more or less. The idea is not new exactly. Maybe it has been easy to miss the threat of this because we are used to hearing the word used in other circumstances.

  51. Victorious wrote:

    Holly Pevic has done extensive research on the NAR and written two books about it. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics and her website is here if any are interested:

    http://www.spiritoferror.org/

    Thanks Victorious, I’ll keep reading. Nothing under Rick Ross’s renamed website http://www.cultnews.com, but Apologetics Index does reference Holly’s work: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/722-new-apostolic-reformation

  52. @ Nancy:
    I think it is terrible to mislead people like the NAR does. They put the focus on the miraculous and totally disregard the entire canon of Scripture. People lose out on a deep relationship with God because they follow erroneous teaching. I do believe God heals and intervenes in other situations when He chooses. But I do not believe in miracles on demand. He has something much better in store for those who love Him.

  53. Sigh.

    When I was in college in the ’70s this sort of thing was beginning to circulate in non-sacramental Charismatic-type churches, and not only among people who later became part of the NAR. I was involved only minimally, at the fringes; I believe God protected me from deeper involvement, though the appeal of that way of thinking about things hit me at a couple of other times in my life, too. I think it’s the temptation that C S Lewis talks about, essentially that of being part of an in-group on whatever basis. Since this has a “spiritual” dimension to its exclusivity, the temptation is very appealing indeed.

    These kinds of groups, along with other more significant issues, made me curious about what the earliest Christians believed, what they interpreted scripture to mean, and how they practiced their faith. I went searching back through history, reading some of the best Christian writing of the first 8 centuries or so, especially of the Christian East, while at the same time reading a lot of N.T. Wright. It was a very eye-opening experience, and eventually led to a huge church change. Suffice it to say, NAR’s ideas about what apostles are and are for do not line up with those of the early Church, no matter what the NARs say about the Apostles’ Creed.

    It’s beyond too bad that NAR have apparently co-opted the song “Did you feel the mountains tramble.” That was one of my favorite songs from my last years as an Evangelical, and I never thought the words had anything to do with any secret, exclusive cabal. The song was was written by the English group Delirious? in the late ’90s; they’re a mildly prog-rock, avowedly Christian bunch of (at the time) young musicians that I doubt has had any connection to the NAR, especially in terms of political views.

  54. @ Haitch:
    Most adherents of NAR-think live on other continents – in Central and Sout America, Africa, parts of Asia.

    It’s bigger than we realize, though I’m not sure that it has anything like the same kind of political clout elsewhere.

  55. @ Haitch:
    Toronto, Lakeland, IHOP in Kansas City, Rick Joyner’s “church” – all part of the same fringe, though in different subsets thereof.

  56. @ Haitch:
    Could you check out Rachel Tabatchnk’s articles on the NAR at talk2action.org ? I think many of your questions will be answered. Her work has bedn invaluable to me in understanding just what was going on around me not all that long ago. (See my early comments upthread for more.)

  57. @ Haitch:
    I would be somewhat cautious about that website, Haitch. Try the suggestions i made way upthread first, as they are written by people without doctrinal axes to grind.

    There is more infighting on supposedly xtian sites that deal with these topics than is good or wise. And a lot of them miss the point entirely.

  58. numo wrote:

    ome key phrases (“dancers will dance upon injustice,” for example) don’t mean much unless you know what they’re actually referring to.

    Do you mean ‘Ekstasis’, Club Mysterio and Kundalini Trance Dancing?

  59. numo wrote:

    I would be somewhat cautious about that website, Haitch.

    Agreed, which is why I pointed out the (alleged) associations only…

  60. @ dainca:
    They didn’t co-opt that song; it’s all NAR-speak, albeit slightly coded. I really wish i didn’t know about any of it, but it was all around me for many years, starting back in the late 70s. I was like the proverbial lobster in the pot, with water slowly being turned up to boiling but no way of escaping.

  61. numo wrote:

    Most adherents of NAR-think live on other continents

    Don’t want to dominate the thread, this is good info also, but my question more related to those countries or organisations who may be responding to NAR (and I don’t mean positively), eg the Russian apologetics that Victorious referenced.

  62. @ Haitch:
    Well sure, they want to get control of political and financial systems elsewhere. The NAR is *very* active in Uganda – check Rachel T’s articles plus coverage of how Lou Engle et. al. got things stirred up there re. LGBT people, with the direct result of Martin Ssempa’s push to make homosexuality a capitalmcrime.

    That Churvhmwas up to their ears with Uganda…

  63. @ Haitch:
    Their goal is to “take dominion” – which is why an alternate name for their movement is Dominionism. I knew it under that name, along w/strategic levelmspiritualmwarfare, long before i heard it referred to as the NAR. But then, i was in places where people other than C. Peter Wagner were dominant…

  64. @ Haitch:
    I only heard about “kundalini spirits” last year, via a comment left on another blog. So i did a quick search and – !!!!!!

  65. @ Haitch:

    Actually, that list seems very good, although the lack of punctuation makes it extremely hard to read. Classic mid-90s web "design." 😉

  66. Apologies, all, for my many comments. I honestly don’t want to dominate this thread, but for me this is an issue in the same way that Mohler is for some of you. Though i am, thankfully, at a remove from it now and intend to stay that way. (Even though it’s here, in the rural area where i live.)

  67. dee wrote:

    One of these day I shall requote this!

    I have to say I agree with her after reading more about them.

  68. William G. wrote:

    In my experience, any “church” that claims to,have apostles is a cult,

    I agree William G. – this is just one of many red flags of these movements. Any movement that states that “you can be extraordinary and do BIG things for God” is another red flag.
    Any movement that states that one must obey their elders without question is a red flag or states that they have been given the word of the Holy Spirit to tell you what God wants from you.

    Oh yeah, look up the The Third Way- dominionism has many facets and many names. It is one way to keep people in the dark.

  69. numo wrote:

    but for me this is an issue in the same way that Mohler is for some of you.

    I don't have a problem with Mohler. I love how much he calms you down. Some apologists are alarmists, but not Mohler!! 😀

  70. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    Yep. The people are expendable if they won't join up. I want to make a further point: in my experience, adherents rarely speak of the passion and resurrection. Their notion of reclaiming dominion for God has no real need of Christ, except as a figurehead. Same book, entirely different religion, imo.

  71. numo wrote:

    Their goal is to “take dominion” – which is why an alternate name for their movement is Dominionism.

    I have every confidence that the men who founded our great Nation crafted enough safeguards into its Constitution so that no one tyrant or group of tyrants can seize the power they so desperately crave.

  72. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    You don’t have to be a Rushdoony Reconstructionist with its Reformed theology in order to be out to control the world system …

    I’m just now discovering this. For some reason I assumed Pentecostal theology and dominionism wouldn’t work together.

    Then again, my only knowledge of dominionism is of the Quiverfull/homeschool/reformed type.

  73. numo wrote:

    I live in D*mn Yankee-land, where there is no Southern Baptist presence. So i am in another, parallel, universe – kinda sorta.

    Well, I live in San Diego, which isn’t all that southern, culturally at least. XD. And his “MNN” (Mohler news network) revelations still make me giggle.

  74. @ dainca:
    YWAM has historically had a very real presence in the UK, though. That’s where the head honcho of the church that booted me is from, and his and his family’s involvementmin YWAM started there. They befriended some of the architects of Dominionism in that exact way.

    Fwiw, March for Jesus – another NAR thing – gained traction there back in the 90s, and an English songwriter whose name escapes me at the moment more or less wrote the soundtrack for it. I would put money on there being connections inside C of E churches like Holy Trinity Brompton.

  75. @ Muff Potter:
    And I’m not so sanguine, given that the movement has such a big presence in Washington and the surtounding area. It is well hidden, though.

  76. @ Corbin Martinez:

    That's different, though certainly, there's plenty of overlap. When i was still in the D.C. area, i knew QF types through church. Why they were in that particular church (es), i don't really know. Maybe they don't, either.

  77. @ Corbin Martinez:
    Why? I think he’s appalling – but you do realize that, as a woman, i react to his complementaianism with a desire to, shall we say, kick back? (“Kick” being very literal here.)

  78. @ Corbin Martinez:
    You’re young, and you’ve been around certain things. I was pretty young myself when i began rubbing shoulders with some Dominionists of various types, largely by accident. I never sought them out. But i ended up in the same pews with them, being preached at by them.

  79. numo wrote:

    Btw, i have asked Dee to send my email address to you, so that we can yak without spamming up this thread.

    Cool?

    Ja, good thought. Dont want any Club Mysterio dance tips though, ha.

  80. @ numo:
    I think it’s funny how Mohler always reminds his readers how he’s been ringing the bell for YEARS, but nobody listens.

    I laugh, but it’s at them, not the situation. It hurts that women in their churches have to go through this. I think it’s sad that these men are taking their culture and calling it doctrine.

  81. Corbin Martinez wrote:

    I’m just now discovering this. For some reason I assumed Pentecostal theology and dominionism wouldn’t work together.

    Then again, my only knowledge of dominionism is of the Quiverfull/homeschool/reformed type.

    A couple things occurred to me on my walk over to the local grocery store. (I’m in a snackful mood … helps concentration for writing!) (So I hear.) Anyway:

    * PRIMARILY PENTECOSTAL/CHARISMATIC. Here you have the New Apostolic Reformation, a lot of YWAM authors and teachers, and the strategic level prayer and spiritual warfare networks. And there is the Seven Mountains teaching/movement, founded by Bill Bright of Campus Crusade and Loren Cunningham of Youth With A Mission.

    * PRIMARILY REFORMED. There are some really specific Reformed theologies on concepts about Christians’ relationship with society. At one end of their activist spectrum is cultural involvement from a stance of biblical morals and ethics — even in politics. As best I understand it, this would include the approach of Abraham Kuyper, Francis Schaeffer, and more contemporary versions that use worldview analysis for apologetics, evangelism, and cultural contextualization. Such worldview topics started having a lot of books published about them starting in the 1970s, basically on any academic discipline and social or political issue.

    At the other end of the spectrum is cultural dominion and imposing biblical law in politics and society. The most notable example here is probably Reconstructionism from Rousas J. Rushdoony and The Chalcedon Foundation. However, people might not be so aware that South African apartheid has deep roots in a Dutch Reformed theology. The Dutch immigrant of centuries past trekked across the land of South Africa in search of places to settle. They saw themselves as a parallel to the children of Israel exiting Egypt and entering into the promised land.

    And that may help understand what seem to be some common-ground indicators for a dominion-type theology:

    (1) They do not distinguish between a theocratic kingdom state of Israel (with authoritarian rulers) versus the Church (with under-shepherds who serve — and not “overlord” — the Body of Christ under the authority of Jesus). Autocratic leadership seems to be the net effect of both Reformed doctrine that the Church = Israel, and the Pentecostal-Charismatic doctrine of non-cessation of the gifts so that Apostles and Prophets are still the primary leaders for the Church. There is a lot of reference to the Old Testament, sometimes far far more than there is to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.

    (2) Therefore, there is a strong sense of Christian entitlement, that we are here right now to rule and reign in this evil world as holy regents of Christ … as Israel was in its day. This is the “spirit” driving colonialism, “civil religion” of America as the savior of the world, and Moral Majority kinds of political party domination.

    There may be other key indicators, but these are the two most prominent factors that come to mind at the moment. It’s important to keep these in front of us, I believe, because there are other groups and movements that may use similar concepts but mean something quite different. And here I’m thinking primarily of the “missional ministry” movement, of which I have long been a part.

    NOT THE MISSIONAL MOVEMENT. The missional movement talks a lot about culture, and even focuses on the five-fold leadership giftings under the acronym APEST — Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Shepherds, and Teachers. However, the entire framework is almost totally the opposite of dominionism and theocracy.

    Missional Christians seek to live like Kingdom citizens, but we are not forcing the Kingdom on anyone. We are guests in a host culture, not colonists taking it over.

    In fact, I describe being “missional” as related to being a missionary. Only instead of the traditional idea of going somewhere else in the world, learning their language and culture, and sharing Christ cross-culturally with them, it’s the idea of sending down deep roots locally wherever the Spirit plants you, seeing yourself as a sojourner within that host culture, and learning how you can best serve to — as contemporary blogger Brother Maynard has said, “Live your faith and share your life.” (Instead of the conventional version of, “Share your faith. Live your life.”)

    This may be more typical of an ANABAPTIST theology, at least in terms of the Christian’s stance toward culture. We are a witness to it, not triumphant over it. We engage with people in it, not try to separate ourselves from it physically (though we exegete culture in order to connect where we can and avoid syncretizing with it where we shouldn’t).

    So, hope those thoughts about theology, culture, and take-over mentalities is helpful …

    Huh. Went through half a bag of Nacho Cheese Tortilla Chips. Guess they do help you concentrate while writing, well, at least some of us while writing.

  82. @ numo:
    The songwriter is Graham Kendrick. March for Jesus began in London. There’s lots of material about it on the WWW.

  83. @ brad/futuristguy:
    You are spot on Brad. This movement has so many arms and legs it would make you dizzy (and nauseated). They do feel they have replaced Israel. They take verses in OT and make false interpretations – based on what? Faulty hermeneutics

  84. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    (2) Therefore, there is a strong sense of Christian entitlement, that we are here right now to rule and reign in this evil world as holy regents of Christ … as Israel was in its day. This is the “spirit” driving colonialism, “civil religion” of America as the savior of the world, and Moral Majority kinds of political party domination.

    This is the system that my dad came out of, but still believes parts of it more or less.

    I guess I’ve been stereotyping Charismatics/Pentecostals as disorganized and unfocused. Which is pretty ignorant of me considering how my dad is proof that’s not right. He doesn’t talk about culture that much, but when he does he has a touch of the entitlement mentality you mentioned, a sense of America being owned by Christians, and we’re down on the job, letting “liberals”, (which is a catch-all) infiltrate.

  85. @ Corbin Martinez:
    Corbin, i think you’re so close to itbecause of your dad’s beliefs that you might not, as the cliche goes, be able to see the forest for the trees. Up til now, that is.

    Please keep in mind that a lot of these beliefs are discussed only with oyhers who adhere to them, rather than publically. RickmPerry’s huge prayer rally in 2012 was a notable exception. The ideology is one of stealth and infiltration, for the most part. March for Jesus and prayer walking are pretty much the public face of it, and these are generally viewed as eccentric and harmless. However, they are intrinsically political – the 2014 March for Jesus in my state’s capital city was accompanied by a series of closed-door meeting on bringing God back into govetnment. The main speakers were all elected officials, with thd exception of NAR leader Chuck Pierce.

  86. @ numo:
    By bringing God back into goverment, they mean *uniting* God and government. Xtians who disagree eith thrm need not apply, and people who profess other religions are part of thr target of their supposed spiritual warfare. And these people clsim to be peaceful at heart!

  87. Nancy wrote:

    Let me give just one example: ocular migraine headaches and the things people see and experience during that particular kind of migraine episode. A quick google is better than any explanation I might attempt. There are even “pictures” of the sort of things these people can see as part of the aura. This is neither from the devil or from the Holy Spirit.

    Yikes! As someone who is prone to ocular migraines, I am now officially scared….I’m not sure I want to google it, but I will, because this kind of belief system is terrifyingly close to what some folks around here are involved in. Forewarned is still forearmed.

  88. numo wrote:

    Corbin, i think you’re so close to itbecause of your dad’s beliefs that you might not, as the cliche goes, be able to see the forest for the trees. Up til now, that is.

    I think you’re right. Granted, I doubt my dad is this extreme, but he has surprised me in the past with some of beliefs. He’s very much into territorial demons and possessions and such. My mom is much more restrained and skeptical, but she holds the same base ideas.

  89. @ Corbin Martinez: Oh boy. If he believes in territorial spirits, he’s into it all, I’m thinking.

    Have you ever asked him what it is that he believes? Might be interesting, or it might be a convo that goes nowhere fast. Your mom is right to be skeptical, regardless of her allegiance to Pentecostalism (AoG, or is it another church?)

  90. @ Corbin Martinez:
    NAR-type thinking are very big in parts of Central and S. America. Brazil has one of the largest blocs of NAR adherents, from what I’ve read. Probably understandable, given that Africa and African-derived religions also have a big presence there.

  91. Haitch wrote:

    And another query I had relating to the ARC group. Perhaps @LT or anyone else could answer. Is there still any evidence of “holy laughter” or the “Toronto blessing” in these churches, or elsewherer?

    There is now – sort of. Spawned from and now attended by GW faithful, the Arnott’s have planted a new church right up the road from GW. Gateway claims to not “major” in any movements including the Pentacostal Movement but your (Haitch’s) link to Empower 21 disproves that since Robert Morris IS Gateway and Morris is also a key player in E-21’s Second Pentecost Movement. Former GW Pastor Alan Smith (who used to teach classes and then worked in the healing/deliverance department) just started his own Catch the Fire – DFW campus under the Arnott’s umbrella. A number of Gatewayans left to go with him. There are only four Catch the Fire Churches in the US and Smith wants to not just catch, but also spread that fire and have DFW be the hub of more Toronto Blessing type activities. http://catchthefiredfw.com However, CTF is not an ARC church.

  92. @ zooey111:
    oh, once you know what is involved in an ocular migraine, I think it’s a relief, but that’s just me. Had I not already known about them, I’d have been convinced that I was having a full-blown stroke during my 1st. I wasn’t, and what has followed has been equally benign.

    Funny, thought – the 1st one had a lot of vibrant color, while the 2nd was all white/b&w. *Not* fun, though having read Oliver Sack’s book Migraine, I finally understood why he thinks that the medieval writer Hildegard von Bingen had ocular migraines. Her (or her illuminator’s) drawings of fortification illusions look almost exactly like what I saw the 1st time around.

  93. What’s missing here? How about “And he said, Truly I say to you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.” Yet an organization (corporations are people too, my friend) will identify, extole, and…well picture Christ, his clothing coverage with sponsorship patches.

    Separation of church and state is NOT the problem. Corporate usurpation – be afraid, be very afraid.

  94. @Haitch
    You might want to check out this 3 min video by Gateway alumnus Alan Smith vowing to takeover our neighborhoods and schools plus establish a new School of Supernatural Ministry! Yes, because that’s what God’s people need more of. Not the gospels. Not repentance. But a school to teach you how to bray like a donkey and cast out demons. http://vimeo.com/97331970

  95. numo wrote:

    @ numo:
    By bringing God back into goverment, they mean *uniting* God and government. Xtians who disagree eith thrm need not apply, and people who profess other religions are part of thr target of their supposed spiritual warfare. And these people clsim to be peaceful at heart!

    This dominionism is concerning. I like Luther’s two kingdom philosophy, and I am not Lutheran. Whenever state and church become one and the same there will be persecution of Christians and other individuals of conscience who may not follow state doctrine. The Nazis tried to take over churches during world war 2. They created more than a couple martyrs. It can be the same way when churches attempt to create a theocracy. They state they don’t have orthodoxy or orthopraxy? What about Lou Engle’s belief in Capitol punishment for homosexuals? Lou Engle is affiliated with the ARC. Certainly the ARC’s adding to Scripture would be unorthodox, but if they want to found a theocracy, orthopraxy would be a given.

  96. @ numo:
    The original version of this took place in London in September 1971 and was called the National Festival of Light. I know because I was there!

  97. Ya’ll please pray for us. One of the good Bible studies we attend is hosted by an SBC church. It is pastorless, but considering a candidate. Tomorrow I hope to hear him preach.

    What scares me is he has already told the church if he comes, it is to change everything. He claims his spiritual gift is prophecy, and that he “will hold the church’s feet to the fire.”

    Now, the church has been troubled in some ways for over 10 years. He may bring great blessing if he comes.

    But his phrases remind me so much of when an NAR type guy, great fan of Wagner and Drucker and claiming to be a prophet, took over and ruined another Baptist church we were attending in another state.

    Pray for wisdom for my family.

    And read your Mullins, Hobbs, Anabaptists, and Quakers.

  98. @ numo:
    The Huffington Post UK version published an article yesterday suggesting that (conservative) religion is behind the USA’s current unrest.

  99. @ numo:
    My mom is from the four-square church. My dad is harder because I actually don’t know the exact churches he was in. He has Pentecostal beliefs, but he can be quite critical of them too. I showed him a video of the kundalini (spelling?) Cult thing on youtube, and he said it wasn’t of God. (My mom said THEY were influenced by demons.) He himself says he was taught Baptist theology. So he can’t be pinned down too much. We go to an assemblies of God mega church and have been for as long as I can remember.

  100. @ Corbin Martinez:
    OK, Foursquare kinda explains to me why she is a little more skeptical. (Not sure why I’m saying that, but I am!)

    The “kundalini” stuff IS weird, no question. As to whether it’s demonic or these people are simply in a trance due to repetitive rhythms and movement is another thing altogether. To my mind, some of these things are like raves without the drugs, and VERY SoCal (sorry, guys!)

  101. @ Corbin Martinez:
    Much as I have mixed feelings about Aimee Semple McPherson, her church seems to have a better “feel” to me than the few AoG churches I’ve been around.

    We have a longtime CA commenter who is AoG, and although she’s had to be absent for a while, I do hope she’s able to provide her take on this stuff.

  102. @ Corbin Martinez:
    i do wonder how different the “kundalini” (talk about a word taken out of context!) stuff is to what many people experience at NAR-type churches and revivals… some of them are completely out control as far as weird and disturbing “manifestations,” which I’m sure your parents would both – rightly – frown on. (I do!)

  103. @ numo:

    I know nothing about the kind of dancing you are talking about. However, the “try outs” for priestess in an animist religion that I saw in Africa involved dancing around in a circle (not twirling) in what looked like a state of altered consciousness. By the time they had completed the circle they “fell out” and sank to the ground at which point two women came and dragged them back into one of the huts. After some time (maybe 15-30 minutes) the walked out apparently awake, stable and unharmed.

    I am no authority on anything, but I do not think that messing with some of this stuff is safe. Induced states of altered consciousness (with or without drugs) is not without its problems.

  104. numo wrote:

    To my mind, some of these things are like raves without the drugs, and VERY SoCal (sorry, guys!)

    Oh, definitely, though I think that’s an older generation thing, the Jesus freaks and all.

    As for the kundalini stuff, that’s crazy to me. One part showed a girl sitting during a worship/prayer/spirit baptism session. Out of nowhere she gets up, starts screaming and runs into the wall several times before falling down next to it. People barely noticed. :O. My phone won’t let me post links here for some reason, but it’s one of 2 (3?) Video clips on YouTube, I’ll find the exact name later.

  105. @ numo:
    (I don’t know why i said later) it’s called “SHOCKING DOCUMENTARY-False spirits invade the church- kundalini warning” yes, cheesy title but there are some weird parts.

  106. Dee asked about the word ‘relational’. This takes me back to the 1980’s restoration movement and its various streams where this word was used. The idea was not to base unity so much on a denomination or particular doctrinal slant so much as the ‘apostolic team’ would have a personal relationship in the sense of personally know the churches and their leaders under their oversight.

    This might have worked in the beginning when the set ups were small, but as they grew it became less easy, and a system of managing churches at a distance took its place, i.e. the relationship became less personal. The team became more distant in much the way senior management of companies lives on the top floor and ends up rarely if ever being seen by ordinary employees. But I think it was initially a good faith attempt to avoid leaders operating in isolation from each other, and to personally support each other.

    I was never happy with the 4 or 5 fold ministry being restored, although a (small a) apostolic non-local ministry not so very different from bishops in more traditional churches but more mobile in where they are sent may qualify for this. To me the Apostles and Prophets on which the church was founded continue their ministry through the NT writings passed on to us, and this is the only valid apostolic succession.

  107.   __

    Pastoral Candidate: “I Will Tax Your Feet…?

    Hey linda ,

    hmmm…

    I think this proverbial potential pretentious prophetical pastoral candidate really should hold the congargation accountable to the scriptures, and leave the ‘fire setting’ to the Holy Spirit where the love, and the servant’s heart originates in the first place.

    Yeah!

    Sopy
    __
    Comic relief: Da ‘religious’ tax man cometh?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paOxJRMAsC4

    …U know da drill…

    🙂

  108. @ linda:

    I’ll be praying for you, family, and the church. It is tough when we are fearful of seeing a retake of a similar situation.

  109. linda wrote:

    Ya’ll please pray for us. One of the good Bible studies we attend is hosted by an SBC church. It is pastorless, but considering a candidate. Tomorrow I hope to hear him preach.
    What scares me is he has already told the church if he comes, it is to change everything. He claims his spiritual gift is prophecy, and that he “will hold the church’s feet to the fire.”
    Now, the church has been troubled in some ways for over 10 years. He may bring great blessing if he comes.
    But his phrases remind me so much of when an NAR type guy, great fan of Wagner and Drucker and claiming to be a prophet, took over and ruined another Baptist church we were attending in another state.
    Pray for wisdom for my family.
    And read your Mullins, Hobbs, Anabaptists, and Quakers.

    Oh man, prayers for you and the church…..

  110. numo wrote:

    That sounds like a psychotic episode, honestly.

    I just watched the videos again and I was slightly wrong about the girl ( haven’t watched them in a while). She was sitting but somebody else was already “anointing” her. When he let her go then she got up. But anyway, C. Peter Wagner is in it, anointing Todd Bentley. Creepy.

  111. I just googled this group in an attempt to see which churches are associated with it. Lo and behold, one of the major churches is Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena. Ironically, Che Ahn who is the pastor there, got sent out from CLC in 1984 to start a church in CA, and eventually broke from SGM due to philosophical differences. (And he water baptized me when I was in college, but that was a good experience and not a weird one.) Also, Lou Engalls, who leads “The Call” was also sent out from CLC. Interesting how everything intersects.

  112. @ Former CLC’er:
    Well, yes, which has always amused me (privately) when people talk up Che Ahn on other, shall remain nameless, blogs. It’s certainly no surprise that both he and Engle have that in common.

  113. @ Former CLC’er:
    There is no single NAR group – there are many, aligned with and around different people. Minor subsets aside, they all seem to believe in pretty much the same things.

  114. @ numo:
    Hmm…I remember Todd Bentley being featured on the Elijah List for a couple of years before the Lakeland thing, back when I was still in this stuff. It was, in fact, the stories coming out of Lakeland that helped break the spell, if you will, and get me to start separating. Particularly the stories of him kicking an elderly woman in the stomach to ‘knock the demon of infirmity’ out of her. Believe me, there are some serious horror stories of what is done in the name of getting demons out of people.

    Hmm…when I was a teenager, my father participated in an exorcism at our AofG church. The person that was the ‘subject’ of this later committed suicide.

    My mom used to get what she called ‘sick headaches’ all the time. Knowing what I do now, I believe it was to do with endometriosis as they stopped after she had surgery to remove a cyst and had a complete hysterectomy. But this one particular night when I was about 22, we were alone in the house and she was having one of her headaches and called me into her bedroom demanding that I punch her in the head and “knock the devil out of her.” I would not do it and she got very angry.

  115. @ Jeannette Altes:
    Umm. I have seen an unwilling (very unwilling) person forcibly prayed over for “deliverance” from a “spirit of anorexia.” She was crying and begging them to stop. They didn’t. I’ve also heard claims made about people being ultra-susceptible to demonic possession *while they are under general anesthesia.* Whrere that came from, i have no idea, but the same group of “pastors” was responsible for both things.

  116. @ numo:
    I’ve hear the thing about general anesthesia, too. It’s been a while and I don’t know where it came from, either. Hmm…but I think it was maybe someone on TBN. My mother watched TBN, well, religiously.

    I have to admit being a little embarrassed at the level of fear this stuff still triggers in me. What I grew up in paints the whole outside world as dangerous and Christians outside this belief system as misguided at best and possibly being guided by demons. I had nightmares about demons and hell when I was a child.

    Growing up, with my mother, everything that happened that interfered with her plans was an attack from the ‘enemy,’ from getting the flu to not getting a good enough parking space. We were always ‘binding the enemy’ to leave us alone. I finally had to cut myself off from her because of her narcissism. I haven’t see or talked to her in over 6 years. She blames the devil for my actions. Sigh.

  117. Pingback: The Old Way

  118. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    This illustrates one of the problems with the term cult.

    I would like to mainly talk about something that Brad has already discussed here.

    While reading that initial paragraph by Wagner I could not avoid thinking that, of course, he’s going to say that NAR is not a cult. It’s likely that most Christian cults, if not all, have some kind of explanation why they are not a cult.

    I remember well how the church I was a part of several years ago, whose system of belief contains many elements of cultic nature in my opinion, tried to defend itself from external accusation and explain why we were not a cult. And, blimey, we used many of the same points Wagner used there:

    – First, start by saying that your group is not a cult. Others definitely are, but not us.
    – Second, talk about how much and how fast you’re growing. For some reason, your group is always the fastest growing religious group in the world or in your faith. It doesn’t matter that, in reality, speed of growth is not a proof of the truthfulness of your belief or the group legitimacy, but it looks impressive. We all feel attracted by big numbers. And it certainly helps to distract from other issues.
    – Saying how much you love the principles of the Reformation, the Bible and traditional Christian belief and morals. The small differences here and there are simply, you know, curiosities. Basically, define cult in terms of doctrine only, and do what you can to show (disguise) your group’s beliefs in the best possible light to external examiners.
    – Don’t forget to mention that the existence of the group and what it is doing is the best thing to happen to Christianity since Jesus/the Reformation/whatever other event you fancy. It ‘demonstrates’ that we’re a special group, different to other churches and groups in the faith. We’re an anointed group, a remnant church and a blessing for others, carrying the torch of a truth that was forgotten by the church or hidden by God until the appointed time.
    – All this results in a ‘quality of church life’ and other issues that are a (positive) change with respect to what has been done until now. Our members are happier, more healthy, live longer, more in fire for Jesus… You name it. All this positively shows how God is blessing us, because we’re the chosen ones.
    – How can we be a cult? Don’t be silly. We don’t have a creepy LEADER like cults have! Of course, let’s forget that the leader may be already dead, but that his/her control on the group’s members may still be (posthumously) effected by his/her writings and teachings. And let’s forget that the leader in a cult does not necessarily have to be one person. It could be a group of persons, or simply the system of belief. If the system doesn’t pass away with the death of its founders, then they tend to self-perpetuate. In the end the system itself becomes the leader.

    There are differences between what Wagner wrote and the things we used to say, of course, but in its core it sounds like the same old story. For example, we used to talk a lot of persecution suffered by the church (that is, our church, not other Christians) as a sign of the truthfulness of our beliefs, and it wouldn’t surprise me if NAR also uses it someway.

    In the end, these statements mainly serve two purposes: first, to appease external critical examiners; and, second, to show the members of the group how well they’re doing and how special they are. With respect to the first point, the group simply has to smile to others, emphasising how similar they are and minimising the differences, which remain somewhat hidden except for those who like to dig deeper. And, regarding the second point, it makes many people in the pews feel happy with themselves, and even proud of being right and belonging to such a special group… With such positive proof, how could we be in the wrong place? I’ll bet that cognitive dissonance is very present in there.

    Sorry for sounding a bit too cynical, but the way that paragraph by Wagner was written was too familiar and hit too close to home.

  119. @ Haitch: well, I’d say they would recognize behaviors and pet phrases— at least if they have been visited by a YWAM outreach team. Our daughter did a DTS (Discipleship Training School) 4 years ago in Australia. Tge training was supposed to be for youth ministry focus, but at the end of the classroom phase (2 months long, and which gives them college credits through University of the Nations — whatever that is!), the students are divided up and sent somewhere on a mission trip (for which they raise even more money). The leadership on the YWAM base, after much secret prayer, hear from God and pass down the decisions– that is how all decisions are made, very top-down, no questioning the leaders because they heard from God. Massive and scary power trips over these young kids living
    Far from home, and set up for emotional brainwashing (sleep deprivation, inadequate food, intimidating practices) Then, after being trained in spiritual mapping, warfare, etc, they take their enthusiasm all over the world. My daughter’s DTS went from Australia to Mexico, NewZealand, and Papua New Guinea. I can tell you that the people of PNG certainly experienced the same teachings hyped by the NAR, whether they knew it or not. They at not know the names, but the behaviors are all there.

  120. @ Lisa:
    And, let me clarify: the kids are so sincere in their intent….they want people to be freed and to love Jesus— But they have been indoctrinated.

  121. Deb wrote:

    I’m praying for those affected.

    Thank you very much, Deb. I’m happy to report that no one was killed in the Nagano quake yesterday. This despite damage to roads, landslides, and collapsed houses. I hope that the coming aftershocks won’t be too bad, and that all those affected will be able to recover.

    I’m grateful to everyone for their prayers.

  122. @ Serving Kids In Japan:

    Glad to hear that no life was lost. I will pray for recovery. Although, after reading an article about NAR and how they have prayed for Japan, our prayers may have a canceling effect. NAR may view this earthquake as God dealing with demons afflicting Japans leader. Not that I believe all their rubbish.

  123. @ Bridget:

    I don’t want to know how these NAR twits viewed the 2011 tsunami. And I hope the victims of that disaster never hear from these self-appointed prophets and apostles. They’ve already been through enough.

  124. I’m certainly not on board with these groups that spend so much time addressing demons. Where/how/when do they care for the sick and downtrodden without first initiating those very people into their cult of demonology? On the other hand, I’m just as creeped out listening to MacArthur and seeing his humorous and smug attitude toward what he views as bad theology. MacArthur’s authoritarian and hierarchical view of church life is just as off putting to me as Wagner’s views of church structure. Both of them uphold structures, though very different, that are harmful to Christians.

  125. http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-warren-throckmorton/dominionism-what-dominionism.html

    The question doctrinally for me regarding Dominionism is the question of a secular society: if there should be a separation of church and state? A second question is the question of Reconstructionism or Christian nationalism: is the US or any other country a Christian nation? This may sound like outrageous questions solved years ago, but apparently these are unresolved questions for some. Personally I see both views as corrupt. Both promote an all powerful church. An institutional church with this kind of power is not the Kingdom of God in my view. And this brings up another question of how the view the Kingdom of God? What is so certain to some, I find more question to than answers.

  126. Would some of you musicians please go over to the open discussion page and answer a question for me about a musical thing that happened in church this morning? I would appreciate it.

  127. @ Nancy:
    Well, dancing can induce a kind of trance state, regardless of whether it’s being done for fun or as you describe.

    Have you everbern to a service at a black Pentecostal church?

  128.   __

    Ha!

    Picture a vibrant fruitful growing thirty year old non-denom church.

    Hun, hum, hum, hum-hum…

    First it was  Warren’s book.

    Then a pastor from Fuller, I think…

    Then Hybill’s stuff,

    ( I might have missed a fad, progression, or a swing through the trees  or two)

    then APEST ate up the church.

    chomp! chomp! chomp!

    then they started performance reviewing all of the paid staff and worker beeeees.

    up or out!

    check!
    check!
    check!

    you didn’t eat your puding..

    -snicker-

    now after going through a few lead pastors , with a touch of pastoral covered up sexual infidelity thrown in for ‘added’ measure, they now teach some type of ‘christian mysticism’.

    Big Whoop.

    This is exciting?

    The home group leaders are asking: “What do we believe now, anyway”? “What am I suppose to teach”, they say…

    These are grown mature christian adults saying these things.

    (bump)

    They have cameras everywhere, and pastors no longer do any counseling and Oh! apparently no member getz ta see da books.

    Cook UM!

    How fun is that?

    This ain’t Kansas anymore, Toto!

    🙁 

    Now members just sit at da ‘table’ N’ stuff their faces, and ask for second helpings, I kid you not!?!

    “More park sausages, Ma!”

    (sadface)

    Pastoral paddycake, anyone: ‘Don’t U rock no boat!!!’

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    Tooooooooooooot !

    Sopy

    🙂


    Disclaimer: Approximation may vary, none of the ‘products’ listed above came with any appropriate accompanying  warning label.

    Just this in ‘fine print’: “You can trust us to do the right thing!”

  129. Sopwith wrote:

    Just this in ‘fine print’: “You can trust us to do the right thing!”

    . . . . and don’t forget, we are the worst sinners we know 😉 but trust us to do the write thing and don’t ask questions.

    They seem to have no idea how ridiculous they sound.

  130. Bridget wrote:

    “Right” thing – spell check or me I know not.

    Around here it sometimes might be more like “rat” or something between “riet” and “rat.” I have tried to duplicate the sound but cannot do it. That and the glorious umlaut have escaped me. But a little creative play with the word never hurts.

  131. What Is the NAR?

    The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine.

    So they have Purity of Ideology.
    But do they abuse their people?

  132. Lisa wrote:

    @ Lisa:
    And, let me clarify: the kids are so sincere in their intent….they want people to be freed and to love Jesus— But they have been indoctrinated.

    Young and SO Sincere…
    Just like the Young Communists’ League, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, and the Jihadi products of Taliban madrassas.

  133. Lisa wrote:

    The leadership on the YWAM base, after much secret prayer, hear from God and pass down the decisions– that is how all decisions are made, very top-down, no questioning the leaders because they heard from God.

    Not just “Heard from God(TM)”, but Heard From God In Secret, Revealed only to His Speshul Illuminated Leaders. Just like Joseph Smith and/or David Koresh.

    P.S. The word “Occult” means “Secret” or “Hidden”, Speshul Sekrits of Supernatural Power Known Only To a Speshul Illuminated Few.

  134. Martos wrote:

    – How can we be a cult? Don’t be silly. We don’t have a creepy LEADER like cults have! Of course, let’s forget that the leader may be already dead, but that his/her control on the group’s members may still be (posthumously) effected by his/her writings and teachings. And let’s forget that the leader in a cult does not necessarily have to be one person. It could be a group of persons, or simply the system of belief.

    The “Fellowship (NOT a church)” that messed me up in the Seventies had no single Cult Leader unless you count an absentee Hal Lindsay and/or Jack Chick. Instead, the “Cult Leader” was actually a groupthink consensus among a cluster of “Elders” (all in their twenties).

  135. Martos wrote:

    – Saying how much you love the principles of the Reformation, the Bible and traditional Christian belief and morals. The small differences here and there are simply, you know, curiosities. Basically, define cult in terms of doctrine only, and do what you can to show (disguise) your group’s beliefs in the best possible light to external examiners.

    Oh, and since Christianese Cult-Sniffers of the time defined “CULT(TM)” in terms of Theology and ONLY Theology, that cultic group I mentioned above got a clean bill of health. Helped that their Theology (Calvary Chapel-style Hip Fundagelicalism) was the same as the Cult-sniffers.

    Yet while the Cult-sniffers were parsing their Theology letter-by-letter, these Not-a-Cults went right on abusing their people.

  136. numo wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Umm. I have seen an unwilling (very unwilling) person forcibly prayed over for “deliverance” from a “spirit of anorexia.” She was crying and begging them to stop. They didn’t.

    I’ve heard of Spiritual Warriors/Demon-Sniffers who if a light bulb burned out, instead of changing it they’d get out their Bible and start Rebuking the “spirit of burned out light bulbs”. Stops getting funny when one of them starts trying to cast “The Spirit of Aspergers” out of his kid when said kid was diagnosed. Really stops being funny when a pastor involuntarily commits his kid to a Teen Challenge halfway house for “deliverance from the Spirit of Dungeons & Dragons”.

  137. numo wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Umm. I have seen an unwilling (very unwilling) person forcibly prayed over for “deliverance” from a “spirit of anorexia.” She was crying and begging them to stop. They didn’t.

    “So what if I rack him ’til he die? I shall have Saved His Soul.”
    — “The Inquisitor” from Mark Twain’s Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court

  138. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ numo:
    Hmm…I remember Todd Bentley being featured on the Elijah List for a couple of years before the Lakeland thing, back when I was still in this stuff. It was, in fact, the stories coming out of Lakeland that helped break the spell, if you will, and get me to start separating. Particularly the stories of him kicking an elderly woman in the stomach to ‘knock the demon of infirmity’ out of her.

    On the orders of his Pet Angel Emma?
    “ANGELS! ANGELS! ANGELS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!!!”
    (Does “pet angel” translate from Christianese into English as “familiar spirit”?)

  139. numo wrote:

    The “kundalini” stuff IS weird, no question. As to whether it’s demonic or these people are simply in a trance due to repetitive rhythms and movement is another thing altogether. To my mind, some of these things are like raves without the drugs, and VERY SoCal (sorry, guys!)

    GOOD LINE, NUMO!

    P.S. When the Lakeland circus was going down, Tatted Todd’s sidekick “Shaking Stacy” was the subject of “Kundalini Alerts” claiming she was being possessed by some sort of serpent demon. Checking on YouTube showed these Kundalini Alert footage was edited — jump cut to the “juicy” part. Uncut footage shows her slowly working herself into a frenzy for a couple minutes before she cuts loose.

    P.P.S. Found the lost Shaking Stacy mash-up video to “Shake It Up!” by The Cars!
    Enjoy Stacy at her Shakiest:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQxcgGBiJI

  140. Mark wrote:

    It can be the same way when churches attempt to create a theocracy.

    Especially when the Theocracies in the news these days are the Islamic ones of Iran, Talibanistan, and ISIS/ISIL.

  141. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    This illustrates one of the problems with the term cult.

    Well, it was actually conservative Christianity that redefined “cult” to mean a religion that calls itself Christian but denies orthodox Christology. Originally “cult” essentially only referred to scoiological phenomenon – sometimes within the context of religion, but sometimes not. So Wagner’s “defense” hear sounds like a total deflection.

  142. Victorious wrote:

    Holly Pevic has done extensive research on the NAR and written two books about it.

    I read that name as “Holy Pelvic”.

    Head cold + sleep deprivation + a dirty mind will do that to you.

  143. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    While the core doctrine appears to be perfectly orthodox, in their practices, the whole thing has the distinct look of Persian dualism, with agents of good on one side, agents of evil on the other, and people starting out in the neutral center but being in a tug-of-war that pulls them either one way or the other by whichever forces.

    JMJ over at Christian Monist says basically the same thing, that this was Zoroastrian and Platonic Dualism influence on the early church.

    His blog is over at http://evangelicalinthewilderness.blogspot.com/ . You’ll have to go through the archives, as he doesn’t post often these days due to a crazy-busy work environment.

  144. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    That whole concept of “alignment” is really insidious. To me, it comes across as similar to the “umbrellas of protection” from Bill Gothard, yet another hierarchical means of control

    To me, that sounds like he’s plagiarizing Gary Gygax.

    Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Good, True Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil…

  145. May wrote:

    Wagner’s not very good with words, is he? Some Freudian slips here.

    Firstly, he says:

    ‘This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.’

    And guess who counts himself as an Apostle if not THE Apostle?

  146. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    One of my fears is that this group will gain not just political power (they already have that to a degree) but actual executive power. That is the stuff of nightmares.

    Because after the Coup comes the Cleansing(TM). And in the Cleansing after your Coup, you can never fill too many mass graves. GOD HATH WILLED IT!

  147. Dee and all who prayed for us: Thank you! Got some time to talk, and of course listen to the sermon, etc. First impression is very favorable. The guy seems very focused on the simple gospel and on removing many of the layers of silliness this church adopted over the last years in the name of “church growth movement.”

    Don’t know if he will be called, or accept if called, or prove good in the long run. But we really have hyper alertness for some of this stuff, which is why we have not joined this church. Last pastor was…..odd, but the Bible study lay led is excellent.

    So cautiously encouraged. Again, thanks for praying!

  148. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Well, they *don’t* quite qualify for “purity of ideology,” because they don’t affirm the Nicene Creed. Believe it or not, I actually got into hot water at That Church for asking why the Nicene Creed wasn’t part of the place’s official “statement of faith.” The head honcho – who was ordained C of E, of all things – was thrown totally off-guard when I asked him what I had *thought* would be a non-controversial question.

    Needless to say, by the time I came up with it, That Church was in *very* deep with NAR stuff, though had I realized the extent of it, and what the head honcho and many others actually believed, I’d never have asked in the first place, and likely would have left.

  149. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    The thing is, it’s dualism (more Zoroastrian; I don’t think Plato talks about cosmic battles!), but they retain the name of Jesus. What they don’t talk about: the passion and resurrection. Because he’s really just a figurehead to them, not the incarnate God and Messiah who suffered and died for our sins and rose on the 3d day, defeating the devil once for all.

    Because *they* think *we* are the ones who defeat the devil and demons.

    Which is why my question about the Nicene Creed was not only naive but explosive, since I was unwittingly pointing to one of the biggest things that had changed in That Church. When I 1st started there, they did adhere to orthodox Christology. Ten years later, not so much.

  150. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Funny thing (intersting, not humorous): C.S. Lewis used a *lot* of Plato’s actual ideas (as opposed to those developed by the Neo-Platonists) in his Narnia books. The Last Battle draws directly from Plato’s story of the cave, and explains clearly what he was talking about – that this world is only a “shadow” of the “real world,” of reality itself – which is heaven, in Lewis’ estimation (and doubtless that of many of the medieval writers he studied and taught).

    That really is’t “dualism” at all, and I think the whole notion is something good, not evil. It troubles me when everyone keeps slagging away at Plato himself when in fact their arguments aren’t with what Plato wrote, but with the Neo-Platonic school(s) of thought and ideas of metaphysics. I don’t see dualism in Greek mythology, really – it’s not like Norse mythology, where there really *is* an idea of good vs. evil and a great cosmic battle in which the gods and their realm are obliterated (Ragnarok). Grim as Norse mythology is, it’s actually much closer to the medieval (and later) concepts of hell than anything from the Greek world. (The word “hell” is actually of Norse derivation, from the goddess Hel. You can look her up; it’s all pretty gruesome and off-topic for sure!)

  151. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Oh, and since Christianese Cult-Sniffers of the time defined “CULT(TM)” in terms of Theology and ONLY Theology, that cultic group I mentioned above got a clean bill of health. Helped that their Theology (Calvary Chapel-style Hip Fundagelicalism) was the same as the Cult-sniffers.
    Yet while the Cult-sniffers were parsing their Theology letter-by-letter, these Not-a-Cults went right on abusing their people.

    Yes, I agree. I think that many Christian apologists, in their efforts to find a clear definition of what a cult is, actually ended up helping some cults to stay under the radar when they set the boundaries simply in a doctrinal basis.

    There are many cases, such as yours, where the beliefs of the groups are perfectly ‘orthodox’ and, therefore, they may be above suspicion until the situation explodes in a dramatic way. In other cases the situation of the suspect group may be a bit dubious. However, that will not necessarily stop them from trying to achieve acceptance from the critical examiners and present themselves under a correct doctrinal light. I can think, for example, of the discussions between the late Walter Martin and various leaders of the Seventh Day Adventist Church in the 1950s.

    As a disclaimer, I’ll say that the SDA church is the church I referred to in my previous post. Although I left over 5 years ago, which feels like a lifetime now, I think I can still feel the repercussions of such move from time to time. I do believe that many SDA members are honest, well-meaning, Jesus-loving people who live their life the best way they can and know. Therefore, I have no qualms to say that there are many real Christians in there… However, that is despite the SDA beliefs, not thanks to them. I also believe that the SDA system of belief has many cultic characteristics and can be toxic in various situations.

    It is interesting that what was described about NAR in previous TWW posts and comments, especially what appeared to me like a fondness for conspiracy theories, sounded so familiar despite the two theologies being so different. We also lived immersed in an atmosphere of fear of the future and of all those others that were allegedly going to persecute us.

  152. numo wrote:

    Because *they* think *we* are the ones who defeat the devil and demons.

    Then why don’t they just find a Dee & Dee group?

  153. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    From the article (which I’ve read about half of so far):

    The NAR is definitely not a cult.

    Well, yes, but then they all say that, don’t they? I hear this and I can’t help recalling a letter, which Grandpa Simpson reads as he types it:

    “Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.

    I am not a crackpot.”

    Oh, yes you are, Grandpa.

    Best RL lead-up to “I am not a crackpot” was in an Internet Monk free-wheeling comment thread about Life on Other Worlds which made some interesting side-trip tangents into UFOlogy. Went something like this:

    “There are no ‘Aliens’. They are all Fallen Ones come to deceive us. No, I am not a conspiracy crackhead.”

  154. David wrote:

    Meanwhile Bethel Church in Redding has their kids laying on graves attempting to soak up the “anointing” of dead revivalists, and infamously had an incident where kids let a friend die in an accident instead of calling 911 because their pastor insinuated there was a lack of faith involved.

    Redding, California? I know someone from there; gotta ask him next time I see him if he ever heard of this “Bethel Church”.

    But lying on graves to “soak up the anointing” is a new one on me.

  155. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Redding, California? I know someone from there; gotta ask him next time I see him if he ever heard of this “Bethel Church”.

    But lying on graves to “soak up the anointing” is a new one on me.

    Talked to him. When I asked him if he’d ever heard of a “Bethel Church”, his exact words were “OH. GOD. THEM.”

    He went on to tell me that even though Redding is a pretty large town, there’s still a “feeling of isolation” from living in Upper Northern California, and that Isolation makes people “strange”. And apparently up there in the shadow of Mount Shasta, it’s as much a Weird Religion center as Hollywood, so having kids lie on graves to “soak up the anointing” of the guy in the grave is NOT that far-fetched. Not after the Rajneeshies and the Manson Family.

    Guy used to tell me stories of the Rajneeshies doing “bus ministry” recruiting in Redding, and of some kids at one of the schools who preached about “Charlie is God” — “Charlie” as in Charles Manson; apparently there was a branch of the Manson Family laying low in the Redding area. And this led to a general paranoia of “Cults(TM)”.

  156. __

    “White Nuckled Spritural Rapids, Perhaps?”

    “Because *they* think *we* are the ones who defeat the devil and demons.” ~  Numo

    hmmm…

      These questionable 501(c)3 ‘christian pastoral leaders’ apparently instill into the minds of their church members that they, (the members) have to fight and prevail over the devil and over demonic influences. 

    Yet, where is the good news that Jesus once and for all, prevailed over the serpent, and brused his widdle head and took the keys of death and hell from him and set a whole host that were captive, free.

    YaHoooooooooo!

    Submit yourself to God, therefore resist the devil, and the bible says – he will flee from you.

    Simple.

    God sits upon His throne, silly.

    …waiting for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet…

    Sooooooooooo…

    Call upon His glorious name!

    Help will come in short order.

    Because of what Jesus has graciously done for us, with the proverbial temple vail rent, God can be very, very, generous!

    Accept absolutely no man-made · manufactured – imitations.

    (Please read the bible for details)

    ATB

    Sopy

  157. HUG,

    It ain’t called Harry Potter School (or Hogwarts) for nothing. It’s a whole mess of weird with guys like Todd Bentley, Wagner, and Bob “Make women undress so I can declare prophecy over them” Jones showing up now and then.

  158. David wrote:

    It ain’t called Harry Potter School (or Hogwarts) for nothing

    I think Hogwarts had more class than that.

    It’s a whole mess of weird with guys like Todd Bentley, Wagner, and Bob “Make women undress so I can declare prophecy over them” Jones showing up now and then.

    Now that Honey Boo-Boo’s nearing the end of its run (pedo scandal and all), we need a replacement Reality Show. And this “whole mess of weird” sounds like a pitch.

    “Make women undress so I can declare prophecy over them”

    All I can say to that is NICE RACKET.
    Especially if ManaGAWD adds Roofies (date rape drugs) to his Prophesying(TM).

  159. Looks like there is much they don’t want us to know about the inner-workings of their organization…

    Having grown upin Pentecostalism that was deeply influenced by Wagner, I can say that I don’t think NAR actually is an organization.

    It really is a movement, and it is fair to say it is constituted by relationships, ethos, and like mindedness.

    I’m no defender of NAR, as I left that way of thinking long ago, but I think it’s important to describe the movement accurately. I think part of what you perceive of “secrecy” is really more a function of the fact that NAR isn’t a solidified organization. The ambiguity and lack of definition is a result of that fact, not the result of an exclusive club that you can’t get into.

    I would say if one is interested in learning about NAR, one would need to spend a good 3-6 months in a NAR church.

  160. brgulker wrote:

    I would say if one is interested in learning about NAR, one would need to spend a good 3-6 months in a NAR church.

    And how much time should one set aside for post-NAR therapy?

    I once heard Jerry Falwell say (in reference to the necessity to consume pornography in order to understand it) “You don’t have to take the cap off of a sewer to know that it stinks.” I think that may apply here as well.

  161. An excellent book addressing the NAR is Dr Steve Crosby’s, “Authority, Accountability And The Apostolic Movement”.

    The church I attended until a few months ago, invited an “apostle” under Ché Ahn, who is an apostle in the NAR pyramid scheme under Wagner, to come in to our church and help the pastor. This led to most of the leadership, including 4 of 5 board members, leaving the church.

    The NAR preaches unity and family, but practices divisiveness. If alignment with an apostle and prophet at required in order for the church to move to the next level, then there is no room for anyone who opposes this doctrine. In fact, Wagner has written about the religious spirit influencing the “old wineskins” who will not acquiesce to the apostles.

    In the NAR, Jesus is no longer the sole head of the Body, His sacrifice sufficient for believers, but alignment with the apostolic is required to receive the fullness of what He paid for.

    I’ve watched what the NAR does to a church. It is not good.

  162. brgulker wrote:

    The ambiguity and lack of definition is a result of that fact, not the result of an exclusive club that you can’t get into.

    I don’t believe that anyone has stated that it’s ‘an exclusive club that you can’t get into’… That’s not at issue here.
    brgulker wrote:

    I’m no defender of NAR, as I left that way of thinking long ago

    This is my genuine question to you – are you really, really sure of that? (and btw, I describe myself as ‘post-Christian’ or a ‘none’ or atheish, whatever, I’m not in the sandpit of faith)

  163. Doug wrote:

    And how much time should one set aside for post-NAR therapy?

    Really good points Doug, and let’s hope that therapy isn’t nouthetic counselling…

  164. Haitch wrote:

    nouthetic counselling

    Speaking of which….

    Can anyone point me to a good resource on the dark side of nouthetic counseling?

    I have a friend who’s wife is really into this, and is trying to get him to go to one of these couples for marriage counseling. I am concerned that it will do more harm than good, and would like to help him with resources. So far he is resisting, but is close to the breaking point.

  165. Nouethic counseling – ugh! That was what CLC subscribed to and to me, it ended up with the person in perpetual self-condemnation. Not good at all, particularly for those with mental illness and clinical depression. A nightmare, really.

  166. Hi Folks – can I ask for prayers for my family. I’m here with my Dad now and he has been slipping fast the last few months, and we need wisdom to find a place where he can be cared for. Thanks!

  167. Just saw this posted on a site – might be good for the Dee/Debs who want a bigger look. If you want a rundown of what is being taught in NAR cirlces (specifically in this case, the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry by Kris Valloton), read this PDF. It is 100% looneyville.

    Remember: Your local KLOVE/Air1 stations are playing music by these guys. Your churches are playing music by their band Jesus Culture.

    http://www.kvministries.com/sites/default/files/downloads/documents/lesson_-_apostleships_-_bssm2_2014-2015_-_kris.pdf

  168. Thanks Tim – and Dee and Deb! Trying to keep my sense of humor. I’m not a parent nor am I a medical professional, but I am here for my Dad and so my sister doesn’t lose her mind. And to help figure this out. Thanks to the TWW community.

  169. David wrote:

    Your churches are playing music by their band Jesus Culture.

    My mom LOVES Jesus culture. This stuff is everywhere.

  170. Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry: A large (well, large for New England at least) Baptist a General Conference church has developed a surprisingly close link with Bethel and is offering courses from their curriculum. An impressive collection of churches are starting to align with this one (and each other). See link below. One of the founders of the CTHOP was affiliated with the aforementioned church. And yes, they ‘re in tight with IHOP. And Chuck Pierce. I suspect most of the churches in this network don’t know (or care if they do) too much about the ideology underlying the “prayer movement.”
    http://hartfordprayer.com/

  171. Chuck Pierce is one of the big names in the apostolic/prophetic movement (NAR). He spoke early last year at a church in the greater Hartford area (one of the few churches in CT that comes close to being a mega-church). Follow the link below for a transcript.

    I was at this event. I’ll be charitable and say it….. wasn’t exactly what I was used to, growing up as a Lutheran and as an adult in a (not UCC) Congregational church….

    http://www.kingdomwatchmen.org/chuck-pierce-prophesy-teaching-the-first-cathedral-ct-february-22-2013

  172. @ Asahel Nettleton:
    From one Lutheran to another – LOLZ.

    I’m amazed that anyone in New England would go for this stuff, but perhaps i shouldn’t be, since i was part of the rank and file myself, not that many years ago.

  173. @ Lisa:
    Thanks Lisa, most interesting. It would also seem there’s no discrimination between ‘wealthy’ countries, and developing ones.

  174. LT wrote:

    You might want to check out this 3 min video by Gateway alumnus Alan Smith vowing to takeover our neighborhoods and schools plus establish a new School of Supernatural Ministry! Yes, because that’s what God’s people need more of. Not the gospels. Not repentance. But a school to teach you how to bray like a donkey and cast out demons. http://vimeo.com/97331970

    Also heard this: “empowering women to bring the full voice and influence of their femininity”. Somehow it feels very prescribed…
    I wonder if they have regional specific animals related to their ‘School of Supernatural Ministry’ (and wouldn’t that look funky on your CV). In Australia we have mammals/marsupials/monotremes specific to this continent only. The “Spirit of the Echidna”, now that could be a prickly conundrum. btw, there’s a PhD begging on why the “Spirit of the Dingo” keeps popping up in some quarters (pure dingoes don’t bark).

  175. LT wrote:

    @Haitch
    You might want to check out this 3 min video by Gateway alumnus Alan Smith vowing to takeover our neighborhoods and schools plus establish a new School of Supernatural Ministry!

    Hogwarts needs the competition?

    Yes, because that’s what God’s people need more of. Not the gospels. Not repentance. But a school to teach you how to bray like a donkey and cast out demons.

    So Legba may open de gate and de Loa mount their horses and ride, ride, ride.

  176. Lisa wrote:

    @ Lisa:
    And, let me clarify: the kids are so sincere in their intent….

    So were the kids of Komsomol, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, and Jihadi suicide bombers.

  177. numo wrote:

    @ Corbin Martinez:
    I hear you, Corbin. Can’t imagine how people on the West Coast could avoid it.

    Living in the current Weird Religion Capital of the US, you get used to it.

  178. The NAR is definitely not a cult.

    Because if I say it, it must be true.

    It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam.

    …which should terrify everyone if it’s true.

  179. Apparently, Jaeson Ma (a young talent agent and church-planter with strong ties to the NAR) had a minor hit single back in 2009, featuring Bruno Mars of all people.

    The NAR, like Scientology, seems to have a lot of well-connected adherents for being such a small and secretive group.

  180. Also, there was a NAR guy (Jim Garlow) who somehow finagled his way into being interviewed on Ancient Faith Radio.

    Ancient Faith Radio is one of my favorite internet radio stations (it’s Eastern Orthodox-themed and I will probably be heading in that direction). They apparently didn’t research Garlow enough before they interviewed him. I’m sure he views them as a bunch of picture-worshipping, spiritually dead apostates. If they knew what HE believed, they’d (correctly) call him a neo-Montanist.