Joshua Harris Announces His Departure from Covenant Life Church

"I don’t know all that the future holds, but I know that Jesus is leading me into a season of recalibration as a leader. I believe my Master wants me to turn aside for a time of study and training."

Joshua Harris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Harris_%28pastor%29#mediaviewer/File:Joshua_Harris_cropped.png

Joshua Harris

Joshua Harris, senior pastor of Covenant Life Church (CLC) for the last decade, has had a string of resignations since 2011, when things began to unravel for Sovereign Grace Ministries.  The first one occurred in July 2011 when he resigned from SGM's Board.  What followed was the withdrawal of CLC from the SGM 'family of churches' on December 12, 2012; and on May 19, 2014, Harris resigned from The Gospel Coalition's Council. 

image-1Then in a not so surprising announcement during church yesterday morning, Joshua Harris broke the news to the congregation that he would be resigning as senior pastor, effective in the spring.  He also shared with those in attendance that his family plans to finalize their move sometime during the summer. 

Eagle — our 'boots on the ground' — swooped into Gaithersburg yesterday and took this photo of Harris sharing the news and explaining the reasons for his decision.  

In the wake of his announcement, Harris (who has seldom written on his website in recent years), just added a post entitled A New Chapter, which contains the video of his Sunday remarks (see below).  The message is also featured on CLC's website.

The CLC website also has the Text of the Message of Joshua Harris, along with a Statement from the Elders of Covenant Life Church about Joshua's transition.

During his message Joshua Harris recounts how over the last 23 years he has lived a sort of backwards life — a life out of the normal sequence of events.  He recently turned 40, and only now is he going off to school.  In fact, Joshua has never attended formal school in his life.  Why?  Because he was homeschooled by his mother.  Also, his father was a well-known leader in the homeschooling movement.  Josh received early recognition through his first book I Kissed Dating Good-Bye, which became quite popular.

It was during this time that C.J. Mahaney took Joshua Harris under his wing and groomed him to be his successor.  In 2004 Mahaney passed the baton to Harris, who was just 30 years old.  A decade ago Covenant Life Church was 3,000 members strong.  (Since that time, the congregation has shrunk considerably.) 

During his address Harris reflects on how, had he received formal seminary training, he might not have accepted the position of senior pastor at Covenant Llfe Church.  Harris then explains that just six months ago he had no intentions of leaving CLC; however, he now believes he needs a time of recalibration so that he can spend a season sharpening his axe.  Furthermore, he states that he is not being pushed out. 

Here are some of our 'observations' regarding the announcement made yesterday. 

No Formal Education

Joshua Harris said he received 'no formal education' and is just now taking steps to earn an undergraduate degree (with the intention of attending seminary afterwards).  From our vantage point, that sounded like a passive-aggressive dig at his father as well as C.J. Mahaney.  It is common knowledge that neither Gregg Harris (Josh's father) nor C.J. Mahaney placed any value on a college education.  They both became Christians during the Jesus movement, and seminary education wasn't valued.  Harris admits that 'mistakes were made', and we wonder whether Josh is using his lack of education as a scapegoat.  

C.J. Mahaney – Apostle Over CLC and SGM

Joshua Harris made the following statement during his talk:

The plan was for me to be the pastor of Covenant Life with C.J. as the apostle over our church and our movement. I’m not going to go into the story of how that plan got derailed. But suffice it to say there were serious flaws in this structure and from the earliest moments of my tenure as Lead Pastor there was tension and great difficulty behind the scenes.

It is interesting that he referred to C.J. Mahaney as "the apostle".  Back in 2004 the plan was for Harris to be the pastor of Covenant Life Church, with C.J. 'serving' as apostle over CLC and Sovereign Grace Ministries.  While we have no way of knowing Harris' intentions, this appears to be a dig at Mahaney because it is clear from Harris' statement that Covenant Life Church was not autonomous.  If the flagship church was not autonomous, you can be sure that neither were any of the other SGM churches.  Remember, some of the arguments against the lawsuit were that each SGM church was independent.  We believe Josh's remarks indicate otherwise.

Plans to Study at Regent College

The timeline Joshua Harris gave about getting his undergraduate degree and then a seminary degree at Regent College doesn't make sense to us.  How will he be able to complete his undergraduate degree in a year's time?  Is he getting a sweetheart deal similar to the one C.J. Mahaney's sons-in-law got at Southern Seminary?  We seem to recall that none of them earned college degrees either; yet, they are/were seminary students.  How is any of this possible?

We would welcome any commentary you may have on Joshua Harris' announcement.


In other news… 

Another church has left Sovereign Grace Ministries. This time it's Solid Rock Church — see screen shot of a comment left on the SGM Survivors website. 

Screen Shot 2015-01-26 at 9.40.12 AM

Solid Rock Church is no longer included in the alphabetical listing of churches on the Sovereign Grace Ministries website.  You may remember that the pastor of Solid Rock Church was John Loftness, who also served as Chairman of the Board of SGM after Dave Harvey.  We wrote a post on him a few years ago.  After C.J. Mahaney fled to Capitol Hill Baptist Church, he took refuge at Solid Rock Church until it was time for him and his entourage to relocate to Louisville.  

The Solid Rock Church website is being revamped, and Curt Allen is now the Senior Pastor… Where is John Loftness?


So what has C.J. Mahaney been up to while all of these other things are happening?  We didn't have to look too hard to find out.  Just last week Mark Dever featured a photo on his Twitter account (see screen shot below). 

https://twitter.com/MarkDever/status/557983332474966018From left to right — Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever Thabiti Anyabwile, John Piper, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung, C.J. Mahaney, and David Platt. 

Todd Wilhelm recently called attention to this chummy photo on Dever's Twitter feed in his post — Gospel Glitterati – Attempting to Get Mahaney Back in Circulation?

Apparently, the show must go on because Together for the Gospel 2016 has already been announced.  It will be held April 12-14.  Will Mahaney take the stage?  We'll just have to wait and see…

Lydia's Corner:   Exodus 19:16-21:21  Matthew 23:13-39   Psalm 28:1-9   Proverbs 7:1-5

Comments

Joshua Harris Announces His Departure from Covenant Life Church — 195 Comments


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    Regent accepts mature applicants without undergraduate degrees. Harris would fit this criteria.


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    Maybe first?!?!?! Woah….


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    @ Jim Sarco:

    Perhaps colleges in Canada do things differently than here in the states. Thanks for this info.


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    @ Sarah K:

    Almost…  Another Canadian beat you by a nose… 😉


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    Darn, second.

    Seriously though, this could be really good. Regent is a fantastic seminary. I think Joshua Harris will get the shock of his life over the rigor of actual theological study. It’s the alma mater of some of my fave people as well, including Eugene Peterson (who taught there for a time) and one of my former Bible College professors, who is now an Anglican priest. I am hopeful that he will also get a huge amount of guff for “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”. We do that a lot in Canada 🙂


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    @ Deb:

    Yes, fantastic school. Many top theologians and the total acceptance and embracing of women, rigorous study and questioning and lack of lock-step are the order of the day. I seriously considered studying there for a masters program and I have many friends as well who studied there. The fact that Joshua Harris chose to study there as opposed to many other places that he could have chosen says to me that he is trying to break away from the way things are done in SGMland. I have hope for him and I hope that others follow in his footsteps. (Not that Regent is a perfect place, but it is a healthy one, which is what I appreciate.)


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    Sarah:

    What is it you guys do a lot in Canada? Give guff to people, date or kiss?


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    I can’t help but wonder if the parade of exits over the last few months have not taken its toll. Perhaps the men who left were the ones that shared his views. We will probably never know.


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    @ Anonymous:
    Anonymous wrote:

    Sarah:
    What is it you guys do a lot in Canada? Give guff to people, date or kiss?

    All of the above, on a good day 😉


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    I sympathize with Harris more than I thought possible: he’s seen Gothard and Mahaney both go down in flames–one as a malignant, predatory narcissist, the other as an impotent, full-of-hot-air narcissist. I can’t say this strongly enough—>It is traumatic and life changing to realize that the people who were supposed to love you and mentor you were **wrong**, were actually **using you** and seriously harmed other people.

    I’m the child of a narcissist father and a borderline mother. I had to work for *years* to change speech habits, ways that I reacted to things, automatic (and physical!) responses to people, ideas planted in my head that were not mine…gosh, I could write a freaking novel about this. I probably will. I remember being so embarassed when I realized that phrases I’d adopted from my dad were actually *insults*, when I’d thought they were compliments, and had used them with other people that way. Whoops.

    I’ve spent the last ten years on the healing journey that Harris is just starting on. I wish him well.

    I also have another reaction: “Thanks for SCREWING UP SO MANY LIVES, BUDDY!!” I know full well that Harris was “exhibit A,” and was truly **used** by his father and SGM mentors, but still, I’m angry that his writing screwed up so many marriages, including my best friends’ (divorced!) and mine (barely made it through!).

    Yet, still, I know it wasn’t him. 🙁 Now, he gets to go and develop his own ideas, apart from Gothard, Mahaney, etc. I hope he does a lot of repenting. I wonder what ideas will come out on the other side.


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    @ XianJaneway:

    Great points regarding Gothard and Mahaney.

    I hope Josh will one day address the serious problems his book I Kissed Dating GOODBYE caused for so many people.


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    John Loftness has started a new church. I assume the SGM faithful left Solid Rock with him. He spoke this past week at C.J. Mahaney’s church. -Loyal to the bitter end.

    http://sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-sermons/sermon/2015-01-25/is-christian-community-still-possible-acts-2:41-47-john-loftness

    Loftness, as you may recall, is accused of not only covering up the sexual abuse of minors, but also participating in said abuse:

    http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/john-loftness-in-focus-former-chairman-of-the-sgm-board-alle.html

    Another “well qualified” elder. 🙁


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    Deb wrote:

    I hope Josh will one day address the serious problems his book I Kissed Dating GOODBYE caused for so many people.

    I was going to ask when Josh plans to apologize for that book. Maybe after he spends some time at a real institution of higher education…

    That said, I’m jealous. My ex said I missed my calling by not taking a master’s/PhD degree in some sort of religious studies and instead going to law school. Maybe so. I wish Josh the best of luck in his new experiences.


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    My reactions to Joshua Harris’ resignation are mixed. He clearly didn’t have what one would consider a normal upbringing and I can understand how that influenced his beliefs and worldview. A change is in order, although I’m wondering how someone without a bachelor’s degree will fare at an academically rigorous school like Regent College.

    At the same time, Harris needs to own up and accept responsibility for where he’s led his flock, and the greater body of Christ, astray. The cult-like atmosphere at SGM was in place long before he arrived, but he did little to change it until some years into his pastorate. Harris has also been less than forthcoming with what he knew, and when he knew it, regarding the sex abuse coverup at Covenant Life Church.

    As Deb noted, he also needs to address the adverse influence that his best-known book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, has had, particularly on Christians under 50. Personally, I’d like to see Harris publicly renounce the book and ask forgiveness for the damage it’s caused, although I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s counting on the royalty income to support him and his family during his studies.


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    Harris stated he would be attending Regent for one year, with the strong possibility of staying two years so he can obtain his Masters.

    I wonder how these guys can do this with no college credit? Are they granted “life experience” credit?

    Harris, by his own admission, has lived a very sheltered life. I wonder if I could get credit for “life experience?” I have, after all, been a member in three very dysfunctional churches! I would venture to say I have also read much more than Harris, who admitted yesterday that with constant crisis management he has really not had time for focussed learning.


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    I echo what Sarah said.

    Regent accepts mature students. It is a world class school, and if he is only going for a year, he’ll probably be testing the waters with the diploma program, which could lead to going for an actual degree.

    It’s been difficult as a Canadian to see Regent disparaged online with the news about Harris, (mostly by Southern Baptists of the Calvinist persuasion). Regent is evangelical and orthodox. The profs at Regent come from all over the world – top in their disciplines and Calvinists and Arminians work and study together in peace.:^) Students represent over 30 denominations from over 40 countries.

    He will get a world class education, and not just world class academics. He may not know what hit him, and I think he has made a wise choice. He will be challenged with as people are wont to say, a ‘world-view’ in the true sense of the term. Most students already have degrees and go on to do Masters programs, but it is also a place of exploration for those thinking of going a masters route. He will be stretched in ways he cannot dream of and his USA centric beliefs will be challenged daily.
    Regent is one of the theology schools associated with the University of British Columbia.

    I know folk from Regent – and they are top-notch in their chosen fields and ministries.

    From Regent:

    Grad Diploma in Christian Studies:

    “REQUIREMENTS
    You must have a bachelor’s degree

    or

    be at least 28 years of age and able to demonstrate how your life / vocational / educational experience can be seen as equivalent to a university degree.”

    As Regent states Most students in the one year course:

    “-are taking sabbatical leave to reflect on their vocation or ministry
    -want to deepen their understanding of their faith, but do not require a master’s level credential for their vocational work
    -want to study theology but are unsure about taking on a full master’s degree
    -Seventy-five per cent of GradDipCS students go on to complete a master’s degree at Regent. The other 25% return to their vocations newly invigorated, or pursue new vocational directions.”

    Vancouver BC may be a bit of a shock to his family, it is an expensive place to live.
    Harris has broken with family tradition big time to take this step. I hope and pray the Holy Spirit will convict him as he starts what could be a remarkable journey.
    I envy him this opportunity.


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    Vancouver BC may be a bit of a shock to his family, it is an expensive place to live.

    So is suburban Washington, DC, where Joshua Harris and his family currently live. (So do I, although I’m on the other side of the Potomac River in Northern Virginia.)


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    Well, ain’t that interesting, Mr. Harris is coming up to our neck of the woods. Yes, Regent College is a reputable seminary. Many fine qualities with keen profs. SarahK described it well. It is also a chance for him to be in a foreign country for awhile–should do him good too.

    Greetings to all the other Canucks on this thread!


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    Absolutely what Bene D said above. Regent is an amazing school – he will be very challenged, especially if the views he held in "I kissed dating goodbye" are still views he holds tightly to. This actually makes me feel kind of hopeful – like some of the male-centric, U.S.-centric white middle-upper class thinking will change. Vancouver is a very culturally diverse city as well. I hope it is an exciting change for him and his family. (and just for the record, I HATED his book 😉


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    John Loftness is now preaching in Bowie, MD, and has been since October, apparently:

    http://dev2.livinghopebowie.org/

    The church website touts affiliation with SGM/SGC but it’s not on SovGrace’s alphabetical list. I wonder why…


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    p.s. I too am a Canuck – not sure why I have this american flag coming up next to me!


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    nothing compares to Vancouver for prices. It is second only to Hong Kong I think. As in, you can’t buy a house in the city proper for under a million. 350k gets you a two bed condo in a questionable neighbourhood 30 min from UBC campus. @ singleman:


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      __

    “Sweet Hour Of Prayer?!?”

    hmmm…

    Is dissolution for CLC a possibility? 

    huh?

    Bringing in an outside pastor, the loss of Josh, with already dwindling and declining attendance numbers, Ceege, strapped for cash, foaming at da mouth to sell the building. 

    From Da Cheap Sheetz?

    Q: Is Josh getting paid off, and gotten out of the country before Burke has another court go, this time with (former) SGM Fairfax?

    What?

    Batter Up!

    🙂

    “Out of Aces?”

    “You’ve got to know when to hold ’em,
    Know when to fold ’em,
    Know when to walk away,
    And know when to ‘run’…” ~ Robert Bradley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8o6Os0xQf8

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha 

    **

    ‘Similitudes and Instruction?’

    …choose your bruise?

    …He who digs a pit will fall into it, 
    He who rolls a stone – it will come back on him,
    A lying tongue hates those it crushes, 
    A flattering mouth works ruin…

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    “Nice, Nice, Very Nice?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEf5PIehes

    ;~)


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    @ Bene D:
    I didn’t realize that people had been dissing Regent until i saw your post, and am sorry to hear it.

    Regent is an excellent school, but i honestly have to wonder how someone who has no experience of undergrad (or the personal independence that’s part of it) will fare in going into this environment full-tilt. It’s hard enough for adults who’ve been out of undergrad/grad for even a few years to go back into that kind of environment, let alone a person who has absolutely no experience of anything like it. I wish him well, ditto for his family, but think they’re in for some big-time culture shock. (Fwiw, i know a lot of us down here tend to think of Canada as an extension of the US, but it is a different country, and they will have that adjustment to make as well.)

    But… i think the only way Harris will *ever* stand a chance of gaining perspective on his life and years at SGM is by clearing out of there altogether. Am hoping that being in an environment that is open to many ways of thinking/living will be good for him, but i suspect it’s going to hit him like an ice hockey body check (a series of them) for a good while.


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    @ kay:
    Back in the mid-80s, real estate – even apartment rentals – were like one of the circles of Dante’s hell out there; can’t even begin to imagine how or why prices and competition can keep escalating without the bottom dropping out of the market entirely. (I have friends who used to live there, although they left Vancouver for a rural location some years ago, and built a thriving horticultural business in their current location.)

    If i lived on the other coast, i wouldn’t mind taking some classes at Regent myself.


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    @ singleman:
    Apples and oranges, really. It might be a shock for Harris; i know it would be for me. And that’s only the financial aspect; the Pacific Northwest is a very different world to D.C.


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    numo wrote:

    (Fwiw, i know a lot of us down here tend to think of Canada as an extension of the US, but it is a different country, and they will have that adjustment to make as well.)

    Thanks for acknowledging that we are a whole ‘nother country, haha 😉

    As Jane Austen would say, ” For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?” -Mr. Bennett, Pride and Prejudice

    Happy to see other Canadians on the thread as well.


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    XianJaneway wrote:

    I sympathize with Harris more than I thought possible: he’s seen Gothard and Mahaney both go down in flames–one as a malignant, predatory narcissist, the other as an impotent, full-of-hot-air narcissist. I can’t say this strongly enough—>It is traumatic and life changing to realize that the people who were supposed to love you and mentor you were **wrong**, were actually **using you** and seriously harmed other people.

    Wait – we cannot forget about Doug Phillips (Vision Forum)!

    Check out this quote I just found which certainly backs up what I was taught from Gregg Harris at his homeschool conferences. Gregg Harris (Josh’s dad) really pushed for men to have their own private businesses – even from the pulpit at his Household of Faith churches – not just at homeschool conferences. He did not encourage young adults to go to college at all.

    I recently heard Josh Harris speak about the advice his friend Doug Phillips has given him concerning whether to attend college or not. Doug works with the National Center for Home Education and has young children. Doug told Josh, “If you think college will guarantee security, know that only the Lord can guarantee security.” How true. Yes, college can equip and train, but guarantee security, no. If college affords you skills to do God’s will for your life, then go. If you think it will guarantee security, then stop and reconsider.

    http://www.home-school.com/Articles/to-college-or-not-to-college.php


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    Tennis: Thomas Berdych beat Rafa for the first time in 9 years in the quarter-final in Melbourne today. Had he lost, it would have been his 18th successive defeat to Nadal, which would have set a new record for head-to-head successive defeats in mens’ tennis.

    Berdych awaits the winner of today’s other quarter-final between Andy Murray and Nick Kyrgios who are, as I write, on court (early in the second set).


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Tennis:

    Would I be right from this post that you are a fan of the NET bible? …


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    He must be wealthly to do this. perhaps the books?


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    @ numo:

    Thanks Numo. I think people diss just. because.
    As you can see we Canucks have no difficulty speaking up.:^)

    Harris is 40, he was daddy’s shadow, and Mahaney’s golden boy. He is leaving his bubble and will have to grow up. He will no longer be a big fish in a small pond. Agreed, adjusting to a different culture and a rigorous academic environment isn’t going to be a walk in Stanley Park.


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    He must be wealthly to do this with a non working wife and kids.


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    Hmm. Long-standing member Sue Robb, known for her quasi-spirituality enhanced by a South African accent, enjoyed captivating the crowds at CLC with her prophetic routines at the microphone on Sunday mornings. Oh, how she speaks for the Savior!

    Not.

    After challenging her “gift” and the content of one of her soothing prophecies given at CLC a few years ago, in which she stated CLC’s “best days are ahead” on Jeff Truesdale’s FB page (member of CLC’s Advisory Committee comprised of “lay” members – more like “lame” members), Jeff promptly deleted my comments.

    I reposted my opinions regarding Sue Robb and her feel-good, inaccurate “prophecies”.

    Deleted.
    Reposted.
    Deleted.
    Reposted.
    Deleted.

    Fine. Hear what you want to hear. Do what you want to do. I said it then, I’ll say it again now: “CLC’s best days are not ahead.” That was just straight-up deception, couched in a spiritual-like speech, passed off as an authentic expression of the Holy Spirit, within a false church setting – which pretty much sums up the “ministry” of Covenant Life Church.

    But good luck to all of you “faithful” diehard CLC members who have remained “true” to the church *cough* (cult). I’m sure people like Sue Robb will lead you on to The Promised Land (fill)!


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    singleman wrote:

    he also needs to address the adverse influence that his best-known book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, has had, particularly on Christians under 50.

    I’m no Josh Harris or homeschooling or SGM apologist. I read this book when it came out. I even used it in a woman’s Bible study I led. I didn’t think it was bad in and of itself, but in time a lot of legalistic teaching formed around it. It went from being Josh’s personal suggestions to the “Only Gospelly Way to Approach Marriage” in short order.


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    ps. The content of S. Robb’s “prophetic word” was posted, along with a photograph of her giving it, on Jeff Truesdale’s FB page a few years ago, which is where I challenged its’ content, as well as its’ promotion. I was not present at CLC at the time since I was already long gone.

    The problem at CLC was, of course, two-fold: the followers & and the leaders. When blind followers follow the blind leaders, they end up in the same place together. A pit! But as they’re heading there, you’ll have those that say, “Don’t worry! Things are fine! In fact, our best days are ahead!” (Just ignore those road signs that say, “Danger: Large, disastrous pit ahead. Turn back now!”)

    Kool-Aid anyone?


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    Wow! I wish him well, and hope this really is a time of sabbatical for him and his family. He has a lot of baggage to sort through. I am sort of stunned that he chose Regent. It’s an excellent school, and disparaged as a stronghold of egalitarianism by the Calvinistas. I will be praying for him and his family.
    Interesting to compare Frank Schaeffer’s reaction to his upbringing and Josh’s. Josh seems to be choosing the way of humility; Schaeffer is still just royally po’ed at Dad.


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    Bene D wrote:

    He will get a world class education, and not just world class academics. He may not know what hit him, and I think he has made a wise choice. He will be challenged with as people are wont to say, a ‘world-view’ in the true sense of the term.

    Good for Josh to choose a place so different from the Rushdoony/Gothard bubble he’s been living in. Gotta say when I heard he was going to Regent, I was pretty sure it could not possibly be Regent in Vancouver. Didn’t know what Regent, but just that it could not be *that* Regent…Oh me of little faith. Sometimes the only way to detox is to get as far away as possible, and as you pointed out, he will meet people from all over the world who have very different perspectives. Vancouver will definitely be culturally challenging for him, but that’s how personal growth happens.

    WRT his book, I read it out of curiosity as a “mature” adult and could not believe it. What must it have been like to be a teen reading it and thinking it was a magic formula for a successful marriage. Maybe he will write another one to refute his earlier thinking that was misshaped by the uber-controlled environment of his youth and young adulthood. This could be a very redemptive move if he gets away from the SGM System and repents of his part in it. Let’s pray that he does.


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    I posted this comment on my FB page on Sunday.

    Joshua’s greatest need is not formal study. He needs courage, integrity and an uncompromising commitment to Christ. A good seminary will increase his knowledge of the Bible but it won’t produce truth or wisdom in the inward man. “Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, and in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.” (Psa 51:6) Going to seminary won’t relief Joshua’s conscience or end the conviction of the Holy Spirit in his life. Larry Tomczak, C.J. Mahaney, and Dave Harvey all ran from the dealings of God. Josh is following in their footsteps. What he needs most is to deal with the deceitfulness, broken promises and man pleasing that have often characterized his leadership since becoming sr. pastor in 2004. For example, Josh and his pastoral team decided not to report Nathaniel Morales to law enforcement in 2007 out of concern for a lawsuit even though they knew Morales was a serial, predatory and self-confessed child molester going back to 1980. In this regard, crucial evidence of an incriminating nature was withheld by Joshua, Mark Mitchell and CLC lawyer, Lars Lieberer in their oral reports to CLC in October. The “independent investigation” was neither independent nor credible. Over the next 6-8 weeks, I hope to finish a book length expos’e on the subject. It will prove their guilt in no uncertain terms. For years I tried to help C.J. in private. I never intended to send out the documents to the SGM pastors. Only his lying and intransigent made it necessary. Now, I am at a similar crossroads with Joshua and the CLC pastors. I have made every effort possible to meet with them in private in order to help them. They have no interest. It is now time to present the facts in keeping with Scripture. The cover up must be exposed. I have never desired the demise of SGM or CLC but both have come to pass. It is the Lord’s doing. I hope revival comes to CLC but that won’t happen until Joshua and the pastors deal with the past and pursue “truth in the innermost being” in the present. As it stands they have demonstrated no willingness to do so.


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    @ Patricia Hanlon:
    How, exactly, is this “the way of humility”?

    Humility – word introduced into SGM jargon by CJ Mahaney and used, carte blanche, to define his life and the motivations of all his staff, and used as the basis to exempt them from criticism. The standing belief was that if you were one of the chosen SGM pastors, you were, above all, humble. More humble than anyone else in the church that you “served”. And this status as humble-servant gave you the supernatural ability to walk on a higher spiritual plane, above all others, who were expected to yield, humbly, to your humbleness.

    And if you weren’t humble to The Humble Ones you were, of course, proud – “pride” being another word CJ Mahaney used to manipulate people.

    So, again, how does any of this reflect humility?

    Seems to me getting an honest job would be the humble thing to do, just sayin’


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    lydia wrote:

    He must be wealthly to do this. perhaps the books?

    Wealthy? Not from book royalties.

    His top books: I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Boy Meets Girl, and Sex is Not the Problem (Lust Is) aren’t as popular now. They sell much less than they did 5 years ago.

    From 1997 to 2000, IKDG sold 714,293 copies (according to the publisher) = averaging 178K units/yr)

    From 2001 to 2005, IKDG sold another 285,835 copies = averaging 57k units/year for those 5 years.

    There seems to be some evidence that IKDG is selling at a much slower pace now, perhaps about 10%-25% of the unit sales during the glory days.

    But let’s take IKDG in 2005, if 57k units were sold annually and he made a 15% royalty, he probably made about $64k-$85k depending on how many he sold himself.

    If that royalty estimate is correct, today he might make $15k-$20k per year on that one book; and the other two combined probably add another $15k-$20k. That’s just a high educated guess.

    Now add speaking fees. And add whatever he got for advances on his last 3 books, which aren’t good sellers.

    Wealthy? No. Comfortable? Probably.


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    In my 4th paragraph above, please change the “4 years” to “5 years”


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    Also, add in Josh Harris’s generous CLC salary. Yes, he’s got money for tuition and living expenses.


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    Sarah K wrote:

    Happy to see other Canadians on the thread as well.

    I, too, am grateful for our Canadian commenters! 😉


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    @ Brent Detwiler:

    Thanks for posting your FB comment here for our readers to see.


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    The people I know who’ve attended Regent are people I greatly respect. Let’s hope Josh learns a lot there.

    And I’m pretty sickened by that photo of all the buddies including C.J. Mahaney. Why aren’t they ashamed to be standing next to him?? What is it about this guy?

    By the way, can anyone tell me if Josh actually followed his own advice in IKDG? I mean, did he meet his wife through courtship? It’s just I read on another forum that he actually ‘fell in love’ with her and went against C.J. Mahaney’s wishes in starting to date her. It just didn’t sound like the courtship route.

    Just curious!


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    @ Janey: Changed it. 🙂


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    Patricia Hanlon wrote:

    I am sort of stunned that he chose Regent. It’s an excellent school, and disparaged as a stronghold of egalitarianism by the Calvinistas

    I was wondering about that as that is what I thought of Regent, too. One has to wonder how that will affect his wife? I hope for the better. May she find HER calling, too.


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    @ Deb:

    I’m sure apologizing for the thing you’ve been most known for is a hard, hard pill to swallow. Perhaps he is on the road toward making that step, perhaps not. Only time will tell.

    Certainly stepping away from a position of power and toward more education is movement in the right direction, and the optimistic among us can see that this is a potentially good trajectory for him.

    Yes, there is much to undo from what he’s been a part of- but none of that happens overnight. Even if this move is because he’s been abandoned by all the people he’s put his trust in and has nowhere else to turn, that can be the start of something great. Isn’t that how anyone who has ever come to repentance has started? By recognizing that the things we’ve trusted in are not good enough to sustain us?

    A fully mature Christian full of grace and honesty would apologize for that book, but I wouldn’t expect him to be there yet. If he is on the right path, he’ll get there. If not, we’ll see it soon enough.

    Of course, I’m ever the optimist- I want to see a good work done in this man's life.


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    Brent Detwiler wrote:

    Joshua’s greatest need is not formal study.

    He’s getting more than just formal study by this move, no? It appears to me that he’s moving out of a position of power and surrounding himself with a different kind of community.


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    As someone who has come through the crucible of seminary and been changed by it in many ways (I believe for the better), I’m happy to see him going somewhere he will learn (at the very least) that there are lots of things he doesn’t know yet. A good seminary education should not only teach you to learn, it should teach you that A) there are always people who are smarter and more gifted than you, and B) that’s alright, God can and will use ANYONE.
    Hope he gets used to having female classmates quickly, most of them won’t care to hear the comp. party line.


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    Poor Josh. Poor, poor Josh. That’s all I got out of his announcement. Nothing at all about any admittance, much less apologies for the lives wrecked by his unbiblical and toxic ‘theology’; nothing at all about his illegal, immoral, and unChristian failure to report the predations of a pedophile in his congregation; and nothing at all about his role in silencing the victims of this sexual predator. Nope, it’s all about him. Sorry, it doesn’t appear he’s learned a thing about what it means to be a Christian, never mind a true minister.

    Nope, I’m saving my sympathy for his victims.


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    Joshua Harris has been what I have come to call “kept men” in Christendom. They are groomed, mentored and sheltered from young age. They are given big salaries without real trench experience and the wisdom needed in earning it in a more real life way. They market their books using the name recognition of those who groomed them.

    I am at a loss as to how this is “life experience” to Regent. But then, that is how it often works. He had the title and position.

    Yet, he is in for a real culture shock coming out of that kept man bubble.


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    I noticed David Platt in the pic with The other Gospel Glitterati. And this just on the heels of becoming the President of the SBC IMB. Work related trip?


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    JeffT wrote:

    Nope, I’m saving my sympathy for his victims.

    Thanks for saying this Jeff. Harris is a smooth talker, but let me know when he meets with some victims and apologizes. Brent will undoubtedly bring much to light in the lengthy document he is now writing. Suffice it to say that I don’t think Harris meets the requirements of an elder. He should pursue another line of work, but it’s clear from his chat on Sunday that he believes the Lord has bigger and better things for him in the future. (:


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    Jeff S wrote:

    Brent Detwiler wrote:
    Joshua’s greatest need is not formal study.
    He’s getting more than just formal study by this move, no? It appears to me that he’s moving out of a position of power and surrounding himself with a different kind of community.

    Brent knows Harris a lot better than I do (which is not at all, TBH), but I do think there are grounds to share Jeff’s optimism on this. Here’s why…

    Suppose that Mr Harris had simply taken one pace sideways into some sock-puppet seminary established by SGM, or CLC, to extend its earning power and propagate its teachings and influence. (Or maybe because all the cool denominations had their own seminary.) In that case, it would have been an empty gesture and he would gain nothing of substance. He’d inevitably get a free pass through “seminary” and be accorded fawning admiration whatever he did there.

    But if indeed Regent is a hotbed of egalitarianism, he will find a community that owes him nothing, has nothing in particular to gain from him, and in which there are many confident and articulate people (both men and women) who will feel no need to defer to him. At the same time, neither will it be a toxic and corrosive atmosphere of hostility and resentment towards him. He may well emerge from that experience as a better man.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    At the same time, neither will it be a toxic and corrosive atmosphere of hostility and resentment towards him.

    Re-reading what I wrote – mainly out of vanity, TBH – it occurs to me that this wasn’t well-expressed. I meant, not that TWW and other muck-raking hateblogscumpits [snort] create an atmosphere of toxic and corrosive hostility, but that in such an atmosphere, anybody would struggle. It may even be that CLC created such an atmosphere for some of its members if they asked the Wrong Questions. That doesn’t in itself mean that I wish the same on him. He might learn to be a champion of those who cannot defend themselves. You never know.


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    Can someone explain what this means: “he now believes he needs a time of recalibration so that he can spend a season sharpening his axe.’

    Is that code for something? The phrase jumped out at me. Just curious if it did to anyone else.


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    @ Doug:

    Not sure. It was lingo from Josh's address to the congregation.


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    Deb wrote:

    Not sure. It was lingo from Josh’s address to the congregation.

    It sounds subversively violent to me. I wonder why he chose the word “axe”? Most people I have read that are retreating to “re-calibrate” use different, more peaceful language.

    “Re-calibration” also suggests that tweaking is all that is needed, rather than revolution of the soul.

    Just my observations.


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    @ Doug:

    I don’t think of an axe as violent- I think of it as a tool.


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    Formerly anonymous is still currently jaded. I feel an invitation to hope that I do not trust, but will keep half an eye open.

    I hope this is not Eustace trying to scratch off the dragon skin. However, if it is it will fail. Perhaps then an appeal would be made for Aslan to use his claw.


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    Jeff S wrote:

    @ Doug:
    I don’t think of an axe as violent- I think of it as a tool.

    Doug wrote:

    Can someone explain what this means: “he now believes he needs a time of recalibration so that he can spend a season sharpening his axe.’

    I think it all depends on one’s experience of the word ‘axe’ word. Is it a tool of help and survival to you or a vision from horror movies? 😉


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    @ Bridget:

    My mother works in forestry 🙂


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    Doug wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    Not sure. It was lingo from Josh’s address to the congregation.

    It sounds subversively violent to me. I wonder why he chose the word “axe”? Most people I have read that are retreating to “re-calibrate” use different, more peaceful language.
    “Re-calibration” also suggests that tweaking is all that is needed, rather than revolution of the soul.
    Just my observations.

    It makes me think of an illustration I heard once (I don’t remember the context. I don’t believe it was a church sermon. It might have been a Reader’s Digest in a waiting room or something.) about two men who were competing in a wood chopping contest. One just started hacking away and his ax became dull but he just kept hacking. The other took time to stop and sharpen when his ax started to dull and as a result was able to win the contest, and with much less effort. Or it might have been that the ax sharpener started out with a dull ax and was expected to lose, but had the presence of mind to sharpen it and ended up passing the other fellow and winning because his opponent never did sharpen as his own ax was growing dull.


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    The axe reference is from Josh’s address to the congregation. Here is the quote:

    I read a quote by Abraham Lincoln that challenged me. He said, “If I had eight hours to cut down a tree I’d spend six hours sharpening my ax.” I believe Jesus is calling me to do some ax sharpening.

    It’s offensive to me that Harris would spend his sermon time talking about himself. That time should be reserved for preaching the gospel and nothing else. His choice to make it about himself instead is revealing.


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    @ Deb:
    Thanks!


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    Bridget wrote:

    I think it all depends on one’s experience of the word ‘axe’ word. Is it a tool of help and survival to you or a vision from horror movies? 😉

    I guess I must have instinctively thought of the latter. Maybe I have seen too many movies where the angry farmer was sharpening his axe, very slowly, on a foot power grinding wheel. I have no axe to grind in this story tho…


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    Jeff S wrote:

    @ Doug: I don’t think of an axe as violent- I think of it as a tool.

    This is how I've always heard that term used.


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    @ Doug:

    I grew up in a rural area and the phrase "sharpen my axe" was used often. Everyone I knew had a fair amount of acreage and also owned an axe or two. In caring for the land, getting farm work done, etc…some jobs took more time if done with a dull axe. Therefore, one must take time to "sharpen the axe". You can extrapolate the meaning from there.

    As for Harris going to Canada…I am wondering why Canada? Is it because it is a different country? Does he want to be out of America for a reason? I'm wondering if it might be a way to avoid future legal battles, or at least, not be in the eye of the storm should one hit.


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    Phil wrote:

    It’s offensive to me that Harris would spend his sermon time talking about himself. That time should be reserved for preaching the gospel and nothing else. His choice to make it about himself instead is revealing.

    I don’t know that I see at as “revealing” about him in particular, in that that this type of thing happens a lot (taking the sermon to spend time giving information), but it’s something that I agree is offensive to the Gospel.

    I remember when George W. was running for president the first time and he game to my church to “give his testimony”. I was actually pretty excited to hear him talk about faith and Jesus. Instead we got a political speech appealing to our faith. I was disturbed and felt like I missed worship that day.


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    Lisa wrote:

    As for Harris going to Canada…I am wondering why Canada? Is it because it is a different country? Does he want to be out of America for a reason? I’m wondering if it might be a way to avoid future legal battles, or at least, not be in the eye of the storm should one hit.

    You're not the first person to raise that question. I'm not sure what, if any, legal problems Joshua Harris may face from any failure on his part to report sex abuse allegations to the authorities. Is it possible he knows something we don't? Perhaps. Then again, there may be no legal significance at all concerning his decision to attend a Canadian theology school.


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    singleman wrote:

    You’re not the first person to raise that question. I’m not sure what, if any, legal problems Joshua Harris may face from any failure on his part to report sex abuse allegations to the authorities. Is it possible he knows something we don’t?

    It really says something about MenaGAWD when that’s the first thing that comes to mind.


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    Doug wrote:

    Can someone explain what this means: “he now believes he needs a time of recalibration so that he can spend a season sharpening his axe.’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oojl_D3qEw
    He’s a cop
    With an Axe
    And he likes
    To relax
    By chopping
    Off the heads
    Of the bad guys
    Til they’re dead
    Chop! Chop!
    Axe Cop!
    Chop! Chop!
    AXE COP!


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    Jeff S wrote:

    @ Deb:

    I’m sure apologizing for the thing you’ve been most known for is a hard, hard pill to swallow. Perhaps he is on the road toward making that step, perhaps not. Only time will tell.

    Certainly stepping away from a position of power and toward more education is movement in the right direction, and the optimistic among us can see that this is a potentially good trajectory for him.

    Yes, there is much to undo from what he’s been a part of- but none of that happens overnight. Even if this move is because he’s been abandoned by all the people he’s put his trust in and has nowhere else to turn, that can be the start of something great. Isn’t that how anyone who has ever come to repentance has started? By recognizing that the things we’ve trusted in are not good enough to sustain us?

    A fully mature Christian full of grace and honesty would apologize for that book, but I wouldn’t expect him to be there yet. If he is on the right path, he’ll get there. If not, we’ll see it soon enough.

    Of course, I’m ever the optimist- I want to see a good work done in this man’s life.

    Jeff S, for what it’s worth, I continue to be impressed by the candor, clarity and graciousness in your comments. Our world could benefit from more Jeff S’s!


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    Not surprised but not really deeply invested in this development either. But I do want to comment on the language:

    “Season.” “New chapter.” “Recalibrate.”

    Ugh!

    Why can’t these guys be real and just admit they screwed up and/or their lives took a turn they didn’t expect? So tired of the jargony euphemisms that so many conservative evangelicals use to cover up life’s twists and turns. It sounds so much like corporate PR that sometimes I just want to puke.

    Sorry. I’m in a “season” of grumpiness today.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    WRT his book, I read it out of curiosity as a “mature” adult and could not believe it. What must it have been like to be a teen reading it and thinking it was a magic formula for a successful marriage. Maybe he will write another one to refute his earlier thinking that was misshaped by the uber-controlled environment of his youth and young adulthood.

    IKDG was like a widespread mania when I was a teen (it came out when I was about 15 years old). The damage that book caused is pretty widespread over those in my age-group, but I don’t completely blame Josh Harris, since he was just 21 when he wrote it and the golden boy, as was stated elsewhere. It was popular for a reason, such a book would not be popular in today’s climate, for example. But the 90’s were the heyday of True Love Waits and the desire for marriage and to avoid heartbreak (the latter more than the former, in hindsight) made it a ripe time for such a teaching. We wanted a formula, and boy did we get one.


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    @ Sara:

    Awww- that means a lot. I’m glad to be an encouragement 🙂


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    May wrote:

    By the way, can anyone tell me if Josh actually followed his own advice in IKDG? I mean, did he meet his wife through courtship? It’s just I read on another forum that he actually ‘fell in love’ with her and went against C.J. Mahaney’s wishes in starting to date her. It just didn’t sound like the courtship route.

    In his follow up book, Boy Meets Girl, he talks about how he met and married his wife. It definitely wasn’t the typical courtship situation and she wasn’t a typical virginal homeschooler, so it looked differently, but he did try. There was a rather humourous passage I remember about him enjoying the view of her rather nice legs in a hammock. The poor guy just bolted, to avoid lusting I guess (they were engaged at this time). I just wish I could be a fly on the wall at his time at Regent. What a wake up call he will get! The entertainment value alone would be worth the price of tuition. Maybe it’s not too late to apply? 😉


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    I wouldn’t hold your breath on Josh Harris admitting problems with his “kissing dating goodbye” book anytime soon. He has known about the problems and issues for a while and has pretty much chose to remain silent about them with the exception of a few sermons at CLC. Sadly Harris never chose to use his blog to publicize the problems KDG has caused so that it could at least be fine tuned or realize its limitations and problems. (My blog discusses issues I have seen with KDG).

    I am sure Josh meant well with his book but after being out for so long and with the defects that are in KDG one would think he would be willing to admit these etc.

    Interestingly enough it may be another home schooler who is going to to set the record straight on kissing dating goodbye etc.

    http://www.thomasumstattd.com/2014/08/courtship-fundamentally-flawed/

    I agree with a lot of what this person shares. I am not so sure why he needs to solicit money to be able to write and publish this book but he really is not asking that much and those who do give a reasonable amount do get something for that.

    It will be interesting to see what happens with this book and the affect it has.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But if indeed Regent is a hotbed of egalitarianism, he will find a community that owes him nothing, has nothing in particular to gain from him, and in which there are many confident and articulate people (both men and women) who will feel no need to defer to him. At the same time, neither will it be a toxic and corrosive atmosphere of hostility and resentment towards him. He may well emerge from that experience as a better man.

    Indeed. No one will defer to him or consider his opinion as higher than anyone else’s. It should be a very healthy experience. He will not be allowed to live in the cognitive dissonance for much longer, and hopefully repentance will come from that. I am being more gentle on him now simply because he’s made this decision and I have hope because of it. If he bows out when things get tough or holds fast to the old party line in spite of his time there, my opinion would rival anyone’s here in calling him out for his failures (and they are serious failures), past and present.

    As far as going to Canada to escape allegations of abuse cover up or legal action…this isn’t Mexico. He can be found and sent back over legal stuff. And if not, I’m sure there are some WW readers near Vancouver who will hunt him down to face any consequences in lieu of law enforcement 😉


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    Jeff S wrote:

    Phil wrote:
    It’s offensive to me that Harris would spend his sermon time talking about himself. That time should be reserved for preaching the gospel and nothing else. His choice to make it about himself instead is revealing.
    I don’t know that I see at as “revealing” about him in particular, in that that this type of thing happens a lot (taking the sermon to spend time giving information), but it’s something that I agree is offensive to the Gospel.
    I remember when George W. was running for president the first time and he game to my church to “give his testimony”. I was actually pretty excited to hear him talk about faith and Jesus. Instead we got a political speech appealing to our faith. I was disturbed and felt like I missed worship that day.

    Good point! It does happen a lot. The pulpit should be free from politics.


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    Also I am not sure why anyone would buy Harris’s I Kissed Dating Goodbye book new these days. Last I looked you could go online and for a $1.00 plus postage get a used copy. It truly was more of a fad than something that lasted.


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    @ Sarah K:
    Yeah, well… i lived near the Ontario border for 10 years, andto me, the closets large city that i thought of as a “real” city (with lots of cultural stuff) was Toronto. A lot of the cities closer by had great things available, but Toronto seemed much closer to being like Manhattan than Pittsburgh or Cleveland ever will. And yes, i was young, and had an idealized view of things, but parts of Toronto remindef me of European cities i had visited. Vancouver (the only time ivisited there, in the mid-80s) was a whole different ballgame, compared to Seattle at that time.

    Re. making sport of our neighbors Austen-style, i never have been able to understand why Canada has (had?) a party named Progresdive Conservatives. [Cue Joe Clark joke]

    I’d better get out of here before i get in trouble for making political cracks! 😉


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    @ Steve240:
    I like that article, but too little too late, unfortunately.

    As to my above comments, I mean no offense to Mexico. It just seems like that’s always the place people run to in the movies to escape the law…and I loved the ending to Shawshank redemption. 😀


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    @ numo:
    Don’t get me wrong – i think coastal B.C. is wonderful, but i actually preferred Vancouver Island to Vancouver city. Very much so, in fact, but then, i really didn’t have much time to poke around and visit all the places i would have liked to go in the latter.


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    @ Sarah K:
    That’s in TV and movies (and sometimes in real life), so not exactly representative.


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    @ Bene D:
    Stanley Park! That’s one of the nicest city parks ever, imo.


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    Lisa wrote:

    As for Harris going to Cananda…I am wondering why Cananda? Is it because it is a different country? Does he want to be out of America for a reason? I’m wondering if it might be a way to avoid future legal battles, or at least, not be in the eye of the storm should one hit.

    Maybe he has made a decision to detox in an environment that is somewhat culturally similar, though not identical obviously. Not knowing either Harris or the other SGM personalities, I would like to extend the benefit of the doubt and hope that this is the breakaway moment that will lead to greater clarity of thought and then to repentance and then to reconciliation with the victims that the SGM system created. He was complicit in the abusive system, but he was also a victim of it. Maybe he will be able to see his part in it once he gets far enough away to have perspective and once he has breathed the clean air of grace rather than the stifling legalism.

    I do have some familiarity with the extreme legalism of the Rushdoony/Gothard/Shepherding movements, and I can actually understand how a young man who only ever knew “obey your authorities immediately and without questioning or God will curse you” could get caught up in SGM. That environment would have made perfect sense to him. I’ve known more than a few of them. But Joshua is not a young man any more, and he needs to face what the system he participated in has done to so many.

    It is at least possible that Joshua is undergoing a kind of conversion experience with the Holy Spirit showing him the necessity of Grace rather than the Law he has always known. If he had chosen to go to Southern Seminary, then I would be very, very skeptical of his motives. But he has chosen to go to a school that in some respects is the opposite of Southern while still being evangelical. I take that as a good sign, but time will tell.

    It would be helpful if one of the attorneys or judges who read would let us know if living in Canada affords any legal protection.


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    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo…….

    On Saturday afternoon I was running errands and enjoying life when I was contacted and asked if I would be willing to undergo a James Bond 007 Top Secret mission. Totally caught me off guard. And as I thought about it I was like, ‘Oh Boy!!!” and “Awesome!”

    I had all these images and information flashing through my mind upon hearing the news. What type of gadgets would I have? An exploding pen? Could I have a passenger ejector seat installed in my Nissan Sentra? A watch with a laser? A cell phone with a jamming capability? :-P Then I thought of possible the henchmen you always see in James Bond films…you have Oddjob (Goldfinger) Nikko (Living Daylights) Mr. Kill (Die Another Day) Jaws (Spy Who loved Me) and Xenia Onatop (Goldeneye) and I wondered what henchmen would I have to contend with? Then how can you have a successful James Bond without a Bond girl!! I thought of Urusela Andress walking up out of the ocean in Dr. No. Then I thought of Halle Berry as Jinx popping up out of the water in Die Another Jay. Then I thought of the intelligent but risky Ms Pussy Galore from Goldfinger. Plus who could forget Naomi from the Spy Who Loved Me?

    Then my mind drifted to exotic locations…every James Bond travels to an exotic location. Where would I be sent? Kenya? Tanzania? Azerbaijan? Thailand? Spain? Argentina? Ukraine? My mind was on overload thinking of all I wrote above combined.

    So I told the people who contacted me, "Yes, I will do it!"  What is my Top Secret Mission? And I was asked if I could infiltrate a service of Covenant Life Church in Gaitherburg, Maryland. Could I penetrate it, take notes, take a picture or two for this post? And I was like “woah!” But I thought of all the limping and hurting people from Sovereign Grace and I was like, “I’ll do it!”


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    numo wrote:

    Re. making sport of our neighbors Austen-style, i never have been able to understand why Canada has (had?) a party named Progresdive Conservatives. [Cue Joe Clark joke]

    I’d better get out of here before i get in trouble for making political cracks! 😉

    Ah the PCs. RIP. They tried, they really tried.

    On a different note, as I’m coming out of lurkdom land, it’s like floodgates! I can’t stop commenting Dee & Deb! On anything and everything! It’s an addiction! Pretty soon I’ll be adding hockey scores to match Nick’s tennis updates! Stop me if you need to!


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    My mission to CLC was going to be named “Operation Date Church” in honor of Josh Harris. Q Branch told me that I needed a pen to take notes, so it couldn’t explode. Not a lot of time to install an ejector seat for the Nissan. I made a request…could Q Branch give me some type of detox formula? Some potion or liquid that I can drink that can bleach my brain to make sure I will not get sucked into the system? I was told that this mission was risky and filled with peril. But I proceeded and attended. 🙂


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    Wow…I have a really long post in moderation guys, it precedes the one I typed above.


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    I have to say that this was my first service at a former SGM Church since I had a co-worker who unsuccessfully recruited me to Redeemer Arlington. You can read about that story in this blog. CLC felt oppressive, you walked through the door and the oppression just hit you. It had a dark and controlling feeling to it. The first thing I did was pop up in the bookstore. I wanted to see who and what they were selling. The Book store attendants reminded me of North Korean Minders. I felt like my every action, every move was being monitored, observed and witnessed. I felt like it was hard just to breathe in peace plus I had someone breathing down my neck. I carefully examined the selection there and noted that I did not see CJ Mahaney’s books being sold. I did see Mark Driscoll being pushed though. I took a picture of that and texted it to Dee. Then I took a picture of JD Greer’s book and also texted that to Dee. Honestly I was afraid I was going to be kicked out of the church when I took those pictures. It felt that controlling, oppressive and I was that frightened. But I did what needed to be done and did so…and I wasn’t going to back down.


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    CLC felt off…it felt oppressive. As I sat there in the main auditorium listening to every thing I was reflecting as to how much CLC felt like Redeemer Arlington. Healthy? Not at all….and there was another thing that happened that I sent a text to Dee about. When I was in Mormonism and attending some Mormon services in college I got feelings that were distinct, troubling and confusing. My head felt confused and I would get a headache sometimes. My stomach felt in knots and very uncomfortable. I felt uneasy like something I snot right. I would also start to feel confused as I would sit in the pew at the Mormon Ward (Church)

    That feeling I’ve only had a couple of times in my life. It actually came back at Redeemer Arlington. That feeling really spooked me out especially when I had a military officer who was recruiting me there. That feeling, the vibe, bothered me and as I sat in CLC it started to come back. I started to feel dizzy in the head, confused, uneasy, my stomach didn’t feel right. It all came back. So during the service I sent a text to Dee saying that i felt like I was sitting in a Mormon service. It felt like deja vu. It deeply troubled me.


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    Also as I was frantically taking notes the guy sitting next to me gave me an evil eye. But I was determined and didn’t let that stop me. I was afraid of being thrown out of the auditorium when I took pictures. I took three pictures.

    1. Harris announcing his resignation
    2. Another one (my index finger covered part of the photo oops)
    3. And of the people jumping up automatically to clap and cheer Harris.


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    I often wonder about seminaries….espcially after I attended one.
    The admissions, the teaching, the students both traditional and non-traditional have changed so much in the last 30 yrs, I seriously couldn’t tell you any more what passes for ” good” or ” bad” academically.
    I hate to say this, but the last 10 years I taught high school, my senior economcs class was harder than the 131-132 micro/macro courses that were being taught at the local state university, so I hesitate to even guess what they do at seminary any more….( I thought it was just me until I went to economics seminar in San Antonio and all the older HS teachers were telling how much they were now having to ‘ water-down’ their classes.)
    Perhaps someone can enlighten me?


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    I noted how CLC felt off, felt contrived, and the niceness felt forced. I didn’t feel like anything there was spontaneous, instead I felt like the people were programmed by robots. I noted how people jumped up and started to clap Harris after he resigned. I never saw people act like that. I’ve seen people clap a pastor when a gift is given. But the way people popped up out of the seat…different. It felt like people were programmed, or trained to operate that way.

    Someone behind me started to sniffle and it sounded like they were going to cry at the news that Harris was leaving. There also was a feeling of sadness.


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    Phil wrote:

    Good point! It does happen a lot. The pulpit should be free from politics

    then you would have to get rid of the pulpits in every black and progressive church, too. They are full of politics and who to vote for.


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    So having completed my mission. Having penetrated the inner workings of CLC. hearing the announcement i needed to hear, taken 3 detailed pages of notes, plus pictures all against an oppressive atmosphere and some nasty glares, my next thought was getting out. Given the risk involved I wondered if my leaving the CLC parking lot would be like this James Bond scene 😛

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBlOc79L0So


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    One other thing I will state….I think I know who my henchman/henchwoman is in this James Bond assignment. I think its “Just Saying” from SGM Survivors. Man does she/he go for the jugular.

    In the spirit of James Bond there is always cheezy quotes and puns. So in the spirit of James Bond and “Just Saying” these would be the quotes I would use should our paths ever cross (like CLC next weekend? 😛 )

    (Imagine this in either a Pierce Brosnan or Roger Moore voice)

    1. “Just saying…..you’re just in time….”
    2. “I’m sorry Just Saying…what did you just say?”
    3. “Just saying…you’ve had just enough kool aid…”


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    Phil wrote:

    The pulpit should be free from politics.

    The pulpit should be free from the government. Free from politics is a trap, because anything and everything can be labeled politics in order to silence people.


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    Eagle wrote:

    In the spirit of James Bond there is always cheezy quotes and puns.

    And rewards at the end — the Hawt Babes with the really dumb names.


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    So now that the plot to Bond 25 has been spilled (only at Wartburg Watch by the way….) I wonder what’s next? Do I have a future at the National Clandestine Service at the CIA having penetrated the mother ship of one of the larger cults in the Neo-Cal movement?

    What is my next assignment Mom? (Dee will be my M…think of her as Judi Dench) Do you want me to penetrate another ex-SGM church? There is a Harvest Bible Chapel in Fairfax just down the road from me… What next Mom? Whatever that mission is make sure Moneyponey knows about it…

    No close shaves ok? (See Skyfall) 😀


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    From left to right — Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever Thabiti Anyabwile, John Piper, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung, C.J. Mahaney, and David Platt.

    Todd Wilhelm recently called attention to this chummy photo on Dever’s Twitter feed in his post…

    This is like Kremlinologists during the Cold War, trying to figure out the internal workings of the Politboro from who was standing next to who atop Lenin’s Tomb on May Day.


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    K.D. wrote:

    I hesitate to even guess what they do at seminary any more….

    Depends on the seminary. I dare to say that Duke is as tough as it comes. I worked extremely hard to graduate with a 3.08, and I’ve seen grown people just about sweat blood before a major exam in core classes like Church History. Oh, and add to it that Duke is one of the few seminaries in the country that still regularly turns people down for admission. It’s not easy getting in, it’s not a walk in the park staying in and graduating. But it’s worth it.


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    Eagle wrote:

    So now that the plot to Bond 25 has been spilled (only at Wartburg Watch by the way….) I wonder what’s next? Do I have a future at the National Clandestine Service at the CIA having penetrated the mother ship of one of the larger cults in the Neo-Cal movement?

    Eagle, You really should check with Deb & Dee about doing a guest post — your after-action account & analysis of your covert op, complete with the pics you snapped. Of course, if you get disappeared by the Elect, we can always close with the immortal line from Doonesbury:
    “Regret to inform you the Eagle has bombed. Dipstick.”


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    Brent Detweiler:

    I hope that you will write a book about your experiences. I never waded through the document dump. Just too long and I was never in or exposed to an SGM church. I have read one of Maheney’s books, but beyond that, have only followed the sexual abuse stuff.

    Your writing a book would be helpful because you were an insider and know the overall ethos of the SGM churches and the storyline on the abuse issue.

    It would also help me place, persons, events and such.

    Thanks.


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    Eagle wrote:

    I wonder what’s next?

    Next Mission if you choose to accept it: T$G.


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    numo wrote:

    Back in the mid-80s, real estate – even apartment rentals – were like one of the circles of Dante’s hell out there; can’t even begin to imagine how or why prices and competition can keep escalating without the bottom dropping out of the market entirely.

    It did drop out in 08′. The criminals (oops!, er ahh… financial oligarchs) who planned it that way got away with it. They gambled with your money (made possible by the repeal of Glass-Steagall), bet against your money, and made a killing.


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    I had a colleague at a law firm where I worked in the mid 80s who left the practice of law to go to seminary. He went to TEDS for his masters, and then did a doctorate in Puritan theology under Packer at Regent.

    For him, Regent had its baggage. I don’t remember the particulars, but had nothing to do with gender roles. Some of the profs he mentions (whom you would know if I mentioned them, so I won’t) had some weird issues.

    But that is true of any seminary. No seminary is perfect.

    There are seminaries that are based on an orthodox confession, and there are seminaries that are not. I would recommend the former, and not the later, unless one’s interest is strictly academic, and even then one must be wise.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Someone behind me started to sniffle and it sounded like they were going to cry at the news that Harris was leaving. There also was a feeling of sadness.

    Like Norks weeping and mourning at the announcement of the death of Comrade Dear Leader.


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    Sarah K wrote:

    Pretty soon I’ll be adding hockey scores

    I’m a big hockey fan and regularly attend our local minor pro league’s games. I do catch the NFL teams on TV and have always been impressed with the Canadian teams and the fan attendance at their games. I’ve also been impressed with the entire arena singing the Canadian National Anthem. I don’t find that enthusiasm at our games down here.


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    @ Gram3:
    Gram,

    You are so right. It could be exactly as you say and he must leave to work through it all.
    It wasn’t until I started reading this blog about two years ago that I began to make sense of my fundamentalist background and, much like a turtle, poke my neck out for a look-around. It is extremely slow going to rethink every thought I’ve ever had, relearn all the material I thought I knew, and examine every belief I thought I held dear. Extremely slow and painful. It, literally, renders one speechless. Or, at least, it has me. Speechless in the sense that I dare not speak because I’m not sure if that’s what I actually believe any more. Then, too, the emotional wasteland has to be waded through. Many prayers for Josh!
    Thanks to all of you erudite folks who post such intelligent comments. They are teaching me so very much.


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    @ Anonymous:

    Excellent suggestion!


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    Anonymous wrote:

    There are seminaries that are based on an orthodox confession,

    Whose “orthodox” confession? :o)


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    TW wrote:

    John Loftness has started a new church. I assume the SGM faithful left Solid Rock with him. He spoke this past week at C.J. Mahaney’s church. -Loyal to the bitter end.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The Solid Rock Church website is being revamped, and Curt Allen is now the Senior Pastor… Where is John Loftness?
    As of today, He Never Existed.
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union
    L! L! C! J!
    L! L! C! J!

    The revamping Solid Rock website has sermons only back to October, when Loftness “planted” the new church.
    So it appears he’s become an unperson to them, while remaining BFF with CJ. Rather than a traditional church split when they decided to leave SGM, SRC seem to have done a “plant”. Will be interesting to see if any SGM heritage is mentioned once the website gets finished. It’s happened before. The old website pretended there was no founding pastor prior to SGM. This is because, after the founding pastor made the mistake of joining SGM (or PDI, or GOB or whatever it then was) he was allegedly ousted (this is known as “degifted” in SGM circles), offered the job of church custodian, and replaced by his young protege Connolly, who was eventually replaced by Loftness.


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    @ Eagle:

    Just now approved. I had lunch plans today. 🙂


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    Lisa wrote:

    I began to make sense of my fundamentalist background and, much like a turtle, poke my neck out for a look-around. It is extremely slow going to rethink every thought I’ve ever had, relearn all the material I thought I knew, and examine every belief I thought I held dear. Extremely slow and painful. It, literally, renders one speechless.

    That is such a good way of describing it. What a blessing that God gave you the courage to peek out! Now, try to focus on and rejoice in the freedom you have in Christ. Fundamentalism has become twisted from what it was originally about at the beginning of the 20th century. A desire to uphold the truth and authority of the Bible was wrapped over the years with so many rules and checklists and and gatekeepers and doubt and fear that it does take awhile to unwind it all. Take your time.

    The true deposit of faith is hiding underneath all those layers like a crystal heirloom that has been “protected” by layer upon layer of bubblewrap and duct tape until no one can appreciate its beauty. In fact, many have forgotten what they were trying to protect in the first place and why they were protecting it. Protecting it became more important than seeing it and enjoying its beauty and sharing its beauty with others.

    The Holy Spirit will guide you into the truth he wrote in his words. Imitate Christ, the Incarnate Word, and not the gatekeepers and fearmongers who want to keep you captive. Meditate on the words and life of the Savior rather than the clanging cymbals out there who are clamoring for your attention. Learn from the mistakes of older people like me who are willing to talk about where we went wrong while thinking we were doing right.


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    I have a little compassion for Josh Harris having grown up under the spotlight of one of the 4 original pillars of the Homeschool Movement, Gregg Harris. For him to go to college is a bold move against the movement his father and all of his Homeschool Movement heroes pushed for years. It’s making a bold statement to the homeschool community, too. I still think he has unfinished business with the sex abuse case at SGM, but I think this is a man who is sorting through the mess that befell him, and that he enabled (intentionally or not). Remember, he, too, was under the spell of CJ et all. He was groomed for his position within SGM. Let’s hope that this is a move that will bring more clarity and openness about what happened.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    (this is known as “degifted” in SGM circles

    What a pious way to pretend you are not actually stealing a flock!


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    @ Gram3:
    Many thanks for your encouraging words.


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    @ Julie Anne:

    I hope that is it instead of the money drying up. You know, preaching/leading seems to be all they know how to do. But outside of the SGM bubble, seminary is expected. Even the pastors college was looking to partner with SBTS for grad credits. Until the pushback ended it.

    I don't put a lot of stock in what these guys announce as their reasons for what they do. Color me jaded.


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    Eagle said:

    “I noted how CLC felt off, felt contrived, and the niceness felt forced. I didn’t feel like anything there was spontaneous, instead I felt like the people were programmed by robots. I noted how people jumped up and started to clap Harris after he resigned. I never saw people act like that. I’ve seen people clap a pastor when a gift is given. But the way people popped up out of the seat…different. It felt like people were programmed, or trained to operate that way.

    Someone behind me started to sniffle and it sounded like they were going to cry at the news that Harris was leaving. There also was a feeling of sadness.”

    Perhaps CLC is on its way to being healed of the “Clap n Snot.?”


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    Eagle wrote:

    (Dee will be my M…think of her as Judi Dench)

    That’s just too funny.


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    Eagle wrote:

    My mission to CLC was going to be named “Operation Date Church” in honor of Josh Harris.

    Awesome.


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    Numo, he was raised in the Pacific northwest – in Oregon. Also a multi-cultural family as his late mother was Japanese. @ numo:


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    @ Julie Anne:

    Thanks for sharing your perspective on this.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    This is because, after the founding pastor made the mistake of joining SGM (or PDI, or GOB or whatever it then was) he was allegedly ousted (this is known as “degifted” in SGM circles), offered the job of church custodian…

    Forcing the ousted Enemy of the People du Jour into the most menial scut-work job possible was a favorite shtick of Chairman Mao’s Red Guard.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Jim Sarco:
    Perhaps colleges in Canada do things differently than here in the states. Thanks for this info.

    Getting a legit undergrad degree in such short a time is a bit baffling. However, perhaps he started a degree in the past and never finished it so is simply completing requirements?

    As for admission to college/seminary, the one thing that I can say is that his seemingly (from what I’ve read of his and heard from him) narrow view of our faith is going to be radically challenged at Regent. This is the seminary of J.I. Packer, John Stackhouse, and Eugene Peterson (to name a few). That’s a diverse group right there. And not the sort of professors that won’t challenge assumptions.

    So, I see this as a good thing if that’s, indeed, where he is headed.

    —–

    One more thing, admission of mature students without a degree isn’t just a “Canadian” thing. Some US seminaries also admit some select students without prior degrees.

    E.g.:

    http://fuller.edu/microsites/academic-catalogs/2013—2014/admission-standards/ (scroll down)

    That was just some quick Googling. I’m sure I could find more if this one (at this level of prestige) exists.


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    @ Julie Anne:

    At which point, it would be interesting to hear progress reports on IKDG Harris. As was pointed out near the top of this thread, Regent is completely different than the Christianese hothouse where he spent 40 years of his life and could introduce him to a wider world. Once he starts there, the ball’s in his court. Let’s see how he does.


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    lydia wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:

    I hope that is it instead of the money drying up. You know, preaching/leading seems to be all they know how to do.

    Don’t forget “devouring the Tithes of widows and orphans”.


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    Regent has a diploma in Christian Studies which would be suited to Josh’s current state on life. He could go on to a Master’s from there. *jealous*


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    mirele wrote:

    Regent has a diploma in Christian Studies which would be suited to Josh’s current state on life. He could go on to a Master’s from there. *jealous*

    Good point. Here:

    http://www.regent-college.edu/graduate-programs/gdcs

    Regent is no diploma mill, by any means. In fact I suspect that both in terms of academics and challenging preset notions, it is on par or tougher than many others out there.


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    @ Corbin:

    One other thing Corbin as I sat in CLC I got a text from M, saying she was going to que the “Mission Impossible” theme song. As I sat there in CLC I took the pictures and should my life have been lost in the process. Or should I end up like Servetus and burned at the stake in the lobby of Covenant Life Church I texted M the photos I was asked to get.

    And with that it was “Mission Acomplished”!

    So if my life was over the mission was a success! 😛

    (Then there was the debriefing afterward where I read over my detailed notes that I took as well!)


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    @ Sarah K:
    I wouldn’t mind seeing some hockey scores and commentary. Or updates on curling. (Seriously!)


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Did that happen in Canada, too? In Vancouver?

    My comment was in reply to one about the ridiculous prices of the housing market in Vancouver. I’d be very interested in knowing how the US bank crash affected Canadians.


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    @ Julie Anne:
    Amen to your comment.


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    @ Virginia Knowles:
    interesting – I didn’t know this, only knew about his father. But from what I understand (please correct me if I’m wrong), there is a serious difference between the coastal cities (Seattle, Vancouver, Portland)and the interior – you don’t have to go far from either Seattle or Portland to get into hardcore Bible Belt territory, from what I am told and what I’ve read. So there’s more than one culture in the PacNW, the question is, which one is he familiar with? My guess is the latter, not the wide-openneness of the large coastal cities. But I might be all wet on this.


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    I think his heading for Regent is an excellent idea. Friends who are long-term L’Abri workers went there & he will find many many people whose impeccable Christian character he will not be able to doubt, but who are as far from the circus side of evangelicalism as you can get. I really hope some solid types from various strands take him under their wing,love him dearly & challenge him to within an inch of his faith.


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    Anonymous wrote:

    I hope that you will write a book about your experiences. I never waded through the document dump. Just too long and I was never in or exposed to an SGM church. I have read one of Maheney’s books, but beyond that, have only followed the sexual abuse stuff.
    Your writing a book would be helpful because you were an insider and know the overall ethos of the SGM churches and the storyline on the abuse issue.
    It would also help me place, persons, events and such.

    Thanks for your encouragement to write a book. I hope to do so by the end of the year. I know it is hard to digest all I have written because I have written in great detail. I felt this was necessary for two reasons. One, I could not expose C.J./SGM as a matter of conscience without providing overwhelming evidence. Two, I knew C.J./SGM would do everything in their power to discredit my writings if that were possible. In this regard I succeeded. They have rarely challenged the veracity of what I’ve written. They’ve simply labeled what I’ve written as “slander” and threatened to discipline and/or excommunicate people in their churches who read what I’ve written. They’ve also put together a nationwide campaign to condemn me in Reformed evangelical circles as vengeful slanderer. Just the other week, I received an email informing me that people were praying the Lord would silence me through death. On a personal note, my wife was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. See my FB page. It is serious. She is undergoing 20 weeks of dose dense chemotherapy that will be followed by surgery and radiation therapy. Please pray for her health and healing as the Lord leads you. Back to the beginning. I could never write a “short story” about C.J./SGM without my “Moby Dick” of documentation. In other words, I won’t feel the need to back up every point in a book that tells the essential story. I can simply reference other of my writings for detail. I hope such a book will help people like you easily grasp the “places, persons, events and such.” I first need to finishing writing about the conspiracy. It is a difficult task. Then I hope to begin work on the book that will tell overall story of SGM in a condensed fashion. I’d also appreciate your prayers. Thanks.


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    TW wrote:

    Harris, by his own admission, has lived a very sheltered life. I wonder if I could get credit for “life experience?” I have, after all, been a member in three very dysfunctional churches! I would venture to say I have also read much more than Harris, who admitted yesterday that with constant crisis management he has really not had time for focussed learning.

    This is why I have never been impressed with SGM from the beginning and any self-appointed churches who start up without any support from an established denomination. They have no accountability and they just self-govern according to whatever strange beliefs they have, such as believing one is an apostle. My husband has a doctorate of ministries besides his masters of divinity and his undergraduate education. He is continuing with a masters in theology. Our church is solid, some may say it might be too academic, but once an attender starts to get used to his sermons, they come back for more because the truth through scholarship is preached. I hope Joshua Harris will see the need for more than just one year or two, because we desperately need well educated pastors in today’s church.


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    I think that getting the facts re: higher education going against family tradition is important. Alex Harris (a younger brother), when this article was published, was in his last year at Harvard law school. The entire article is quite interesting.
    I’m not a follower of their particular way of homeschooling, church, etc., but I think that as fellow brethren we need to be fair with one another and get the facts if possible.

    http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/alex-and-brett-harris-are-doing-hard-things

    Also at a homeschool conference in Portland in the late 90’s, my take from Gregg Harris was to find what ‘delights’ your child and let them run with it. It seemed to me to be a college is ok if they want/need it, but don’t be pressured to just do it because others say you should. Every child is unique. Just my take at the time (with 3/4 in college right now)

    @numo
    The Harrises are from the Portland area. As a born & bred Oregonian, I can say that calling any part of the state Bible Belt cracks me up. More conservative east of the Cascades – yes – but a very liberal state over all. Godly – no – a 2012 Gallup poll had Oregon ranked in a tie for the 5th Least Churched State. Individualistic, pioneer spirited, tree hugging, organic, cowboys, loggers, hippies (they never went away in Eugene) a diverse and proud of it group. (In my opinion)


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    Bridget wrote:

    I think it all depends on one’s experience of the word ‘axe’ word.

    That’s a big true true Bridget. ‘Axe’ makes me think of a 1967 Gibson SG special with two black P-90 pickups. But I suspect that for many males (and some females too) the connotation would be gearing up for battle against reprobate heathen and Godless liberals such as myself. ===> (smiley face goes here)


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    @ Eagle:
    You should go to Capitol Hill Baptist church next.


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    Brent Detwiler wrote:

    It is serious. She is undergoing 20 weeks of dose dense chemotherapy that will be followed by surgery and radiation therapy. Please pray for her health and healing as the Lord leads you.

    I’m so sorry, Brent. Please convey our heartfelt love and best wishes to your wife on our behalf. Sending up a prayer….


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    The way I recall the story about Josh Harris eventually moving to Gaithersburg to live with the Mahaneye’s was that initially CJ’s daughters, who were all homeschooled, were drawn to Joshua Harris through the magazine he was publishing for homeschooled kids (forget what it was called). What came first, the chicken or the egg, I don’t know. Did CJ notice Josh Harris first, or did CJ’s daughters? In any case, CJ was the first one to court Joshua with the hope that he would end up courting (and marrying) his daughter. It seemed like a match made in heaven: Joshua would take over CJ’s position with CJ’s daughter at his side. You’d have a popular, young guy who could draw crowds and keep things rolling, and a career like his wife’s for their daughter who could continue the Mahaney reign at CLC.

    But Joshua made the mistake of falling in love, which may have been part of the “behind the scenes tensions” that Harris described happened. Normally, when a new pastor is installed, you don’t have the old pastor’s wife staying on full-time, continuing her task of leading the Women’s Ministry. But this is precisely what Carolyn Mahaney did – with a plus. Together with her daughters she launched the Girl Talk blog. Joshua Harris may have become Senior Pastor, but it was no changing of the guard. Nicole Mahaney couldn’t be assigned her mother’s position without being married to the new Senior Pastor, and it wouldn’t’ do to have Joshua Harris’ new wife take over the role from Carolyn and out rank her & her daughters, so Shannon Harris was politely relegated to the background while Carolyn kept her job. (One must realize that within the strict complementarianism that Carolyn Mahaney taught, the only true form of “career” advancement for women, with it’s associated honors and opportunities, rested in marrying a man who could provide her with a position “serving” alongside him. A pastor’s status was conferred within SGM to the wife. And although Carolyn Mahaney would vehementaly deny this, she wanted more for herself and her daughters than being “stay at home Mom’s, focused exclusively on their families because that’s the highest calling a woman has”. It was sure easy for Carolyn Mahaney to preach that messasge to women while hiding the extent of her involvement in CLC, while she worked continuously at developing a name for herself and her own career. And she completely expected that her daughters would follow in her same footsteps by marrying men who would provide them with a status and a career within the SGM system. For surely, no woman should do something as brash as attend college and work to develop a career path that was focused outside the home. It was crystal clear: Carolyn Mahaney thought she was *the* standard of biblical womanhood to which all women should aspire to. Joshua Harris’ book may have been damaging in and of itself, but it was the culture Carolyn Mahaney helped establish within CLC (and SGM) that made it particularly toxic. For there was no one else apart from Carolyn Mahaney that managed the message to women within SGM and at CLC than Carolyn. She played a key role while acting the whole time like she was this nice, quiet little church mouse.

    And as far as what has been said about Joshua Harris’ bold, new move: If he’s thinking about chopping down the tree he helped plant, water and sustain with the axe he says he plans on sharpening, let’s hope he realizes how big that tree is, and how extensive the root system is. Because the longer one was in SGM, the longer it takes to chop down that tree, and I don’t get the impression Joshua has even identified the plant, let alone know what a monster it is.


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    If you are looking for some stimulating seminary class sessions, especially when you have a no-brainer job to do, Regent has a number of free audios available.

    “Regent Radio is designed to bring selections from our library to the body of Christ outside the walls of the College.”

    1. Regent Radio has audio sessions available online for free. It is sponsored by Regent College Bookstore.

    RegentRadio.net

    Unfortunately, it is not operating at this time but check later.

    2. Check out: Regentaudio.com For a huge selection of Free Downloads.

    http://www.regentaudio.com/collections/free


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    ‘Axe’ makes me think of a 1967 Gibson SG special with two black P-90 pickups.

    That’s funny you should say that, because I happen to have one, snuggled in its case, not 10 feet away from me as I type. Haven’t played it all that much for quite a while – I’ve been acoustic now for many years (Martins – D-18 and HD-28), but now I’m thinking I ought to crank it up and make some joyful noise, as it were.

    I also own 3 axes of the more conventional type, and several various hatchets and what not. But then, I live in the woods, and heat with wood, and work in my woodlot, and so on and so forth.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    …he will find many many people whose impeccable Christian character he will not be able to doubt, but who are as far from the circus side of evangelicalism as you can get.

    This. Exactly. Regent is still evangelical, but big-tent, making-a-real-difference-in-the-world evangelical.

    E.g.: we are currently going through this Regent-produced study, and it’s been excellent: http://marketplace.regent-college.edu/Reframe


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    That said, it’s also possible to go to Regent and emerge as a mega-church-building, Canadian (so a bit more polite) version of Mark Driscoll: http://www.pastormarkclark.com/about/


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    Muff Potter wrote:
    ‘Axe’ makes me think of a 1967 Gibson SG special with two black P-90 pickups.

    I was thinking of a Selmer Mark VI tenor sax 🙂


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    JeffT wrote:

    I was thinking of a Selmer Mark VI tenor sax 🙂

    Sweet!


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    @ JeffT:

    Both would go well in collaboration, doing some lazy blues licks, down and dirty, call and response, the kind of stuff you’d hear way back in the day when Muddy Waters was still around.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    ps. The content of S. Robb’s “prophetic word” was posted, along with a photograph of her giving it, on Jeff Truesdale’s FB page a few years ago, which is where I challenged its’ content, as well as its’ promotion. I was not present at CLC at the time since I was already long gone.

    The problem at CLC was, of course, two-fold: the followers & and the leaders. When blind followers follow the blind leaders, they end up in the same place together. A pit! But as they’re heading there, you’ll have those that say, “Don’t worry! Things are fine! In fact, our best days are ahead!” (Just ignore those road signs that say, “Danger: Large, disastrous pit ahead. Turn back now!”)

    Kool-Aid anyone?

    @Paula,

    I have really appreciated your insights about that church and its many, it seems to me, manipulations of folks.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ JeffT:
    Both would go well in collaboration, doing some lazy blues licks, down and dirty, call and response, the kind of stuff you’d hear way back in the day when Muddy Waters was still around.

    John Coltrane’s 1965 model was donated by his son to the Smithsonian. Oh, the music’s that come out of that axe!


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    roebuck wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    ‘Axe’ makes me think of a 1967 Gibson SG special with two black P-90 pickups.

    That’s funny you should say that, because I happen to have one, snuggled in its case, not 10 feet away from me as I type. Haven’t played it all that much for quite a while – I’ve been acoustic now for many years (Martins – D-18 and HD-28), but now I’m thinking I ought to crank it up and make some joyful noise, as it were.

    I also own 3 axes of the more conventional type, and several various hatchets and what not. But then, I live in the woods, and heat with wood, and work in my woodlot, and so on and so forth.

    Wow, fun! I am going to take up the fiddle, since I was recently excommunicated and shunned from my church regarding a sex offender whom the pastors/elders defend and don’t protect children from. (I am also joining a free exercise group that does walk/runs and at the request of a coworker I have signed up to do a summer marathon with her.) I vowed that I would expand my wings and learn/do new things after my horrible church experience.


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    I don’t know much about Shannon Harris, but I believe she became a Christian as an adult and did not have a sheltered life like Josh. It may have been a big blessing for him to marry someone opposite himself.


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    Michaela wrote:

    I vowed that I would expand my wings and learn/do new things after my horrible church experience.

    If Jesus has his eye on the sparrow’s wings, imagine how he’d enjoy seeing you use yours.


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    @ Sopwith:

    Wow Sopy! That chick is Fantastic!… What a talent!


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    Michaela wrote:

    I vowed that I would expand my wings and learn/do new things after my horrible church experience.

    Nice! Do expand your wings, and make music! Making music with other people is one of those things about which you can say ‘it is good’.


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    Mother wrote:

    Eagle wrote: CLC felt off…it felt oppressive…I got feelings that were distinct, troubling and confusing. My head felt confused and I would get a headache sometimes. My stomach felt in knots and very uncomfortable. I felt uneasy like something I snot right. I would also start to feel confused as I would sit in the pew at the Mormon Ward (Church) That feeling I’ve only had a couple of times in my life… I started to feel dizzy in the head, confused, uneasy, my stomach didn’t feel right.

    It may be an anxiety attack. It certainly sounds like one, and it may be triggered by your intuition, a sense that something is not right, even if you can't define why. You are probably picking up on information and cues that are triggering that response.


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     __

    “All Along The Wartburg Watchtower?”

    Muff ,

    hmmm…

    “No reason to get excited,” the Wartburg Watch Reader, kindly wrote,

    “There are many here among us who feel that the American 501(c)3 Christian church system is but a joke.

    “There must be some way out of here,” said the ‘Done’ to the ‘None’,
    “There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief…”

    But you and I, we’ve been through that, and dispair is not our fate,
    So let us talk freely now, the hour is really getting late…

    All along the TWW watchtower, the blog queens kept the view,
    While all the victims came and went, the dones, and the nones, they did too.

    Outside in the cold distance a 501(c)3 religious pulpit pounder did growl,
    Two more were fastly approaching, the wind began to howl… [1]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOKZxQDcjpY

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    [1] Lyrics reflects parody adaptation. “All Along The Watchtower?” ; Songwriter: Bob Dylan; lyrics  © Dwarf Music;  All rights reserved; U.S. Title 17 copyright infringement unintended.

    ;~)


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    @ Mother:
    Yes, panic attack was my 1st thought, too. Very understandable, given the circumstances.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    I vowed that I would expand my wings and learn/do new things after my horrible church experience.

    If Jesus has his eye on the sparrow’s wings, imagine how he’d enjoy seeing you use yours.

    @Muff,

    Thanks for the word of encouragement! Yesterday and today I got all kinds of emails from former church members, who have been ordered to shun me, telling me that I was to never have contact with them again. It’s…bizarre. People I had sweet fellowship with for 8+ years, that I ministered to, took care of, cooked for, laughed with…have said horrible things to me based on the lies of the horrible pastors and their orders of how to treat me.

    So it’s nice to hear an encouraging word…from somewhere.

    And honestly, I do feel free of it…that nightmare church. And I just couldn’t be complicit with all of their insufferable treatment of people and lying/excommunicating others. It was wrong. And I went and apologized to those former members saying the pastors and the congregation owed it to them. They said I was the ONLY person to have ever come from that church to apologize to them for how badly they were treated.


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    roebuck wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    I vowed that I would expand my wings and learn/do new things after my horrible church experience.

    Nice! Do expand your wings, and make music! Making music with other people is one of those things about which you can say ‘it is good’.

    Awesome, Roebuck!


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    Kay–thank you for the link to the article about the current lives of the Harris twins. I asked my sons to read their book (Do Hard Things) and just haven't thought to wonder what had become of them. Very interesting! I also read their older brother's book years before my kids were old enough for me to have to really make decisions about dating or courtship. (Josh's IKDG) I thought the idea seemed rather…idealistic and non-workable. Never had my kids read it and they've made their own dating choices, which have been fine. One of my kids asked if I'd heard of the book, so we had a bit of discussion on the topic. I told him he could read it if he wanted and we could discuss it. He knew I thought the idea of courtship was problematic. After thinking about it, he realized he didn't really want his parents or a girl's parents interfering at the outset. And I certainly wouldn't have wanted my parents picking out a husband for me. I would still be single, in fact.


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    Brent Detwiler wrote:

    On a personal note, my wife was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. See my FB page. It is serious. She is undergoing 20 weeks of dose dense chemotherapy that will be followed by surgery and radiation therapy. Please pray for her health and healing as the Lord leads you.

    My thoughts are with you and your wife (especially)…


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    @ Brent Detwiler:

    Sorry to hear about your wife, Brent.

    I do hope you write your book (and, going from your blog posts, I hope you get some people to look over it and help edit it!)

    I fear that if and when you do publish it, the Gospel Glitterati will simply roll their eyes and claim you’re being even more obsessive, fanatical and slanderous. If that was really the case though, C.J. would sue. And I think we know he won’t. If C.J. really believed that you have been so ‘slanderous’ which should really be libellous since your documents and blogs would be classed as libel (if untrue), surely he’d have sued by now.
    And if the C.J. buddies had any sense they’d realise that.


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    @ Kay:

    “…Godly – no – a 2012 Gallup poll had Oregon ranked in a tie for the 5th Least Churched State. Individualistic, pioneer spirited, tree hugging, organic, cowboys, loggers, hippies (they never went away in Eugene) a diverse and proud of it group. (In my opinion)”
    ****************

    these are incompatible with “godly”? really?

    what, pray tell, is “godly”, then?

    if to be “godly” as a result of being “churched” curtails descriptives such as these, then you’ve just presented one heck of a reason to be a “none” and a “done”.


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    Brent Detwiler wrote:

    On a personal note, my wife was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. See my FB page.

    Brent,

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply to Anonymous, whom I had the privilege of meeting last year. 🙂 Looking forward to reading your condensed account in book form.

    I am so sorry to hear about your wife, and I will be keeping her in my prayers.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    But Joshua made the mistake of falling in love, which may have been part of the “behind the scenes tensions” that Harris described happened. Normally, when a new pastor is installed, you don’t have the old pastor’s wife staying on full-time, continuing her task of leading the Women’s Ministry. But this is precisely what Carolyn Mahaney did – with a plus. Together with her daughters she launched the Girl Talk blog. Joshua Harris may have become Senior Pastor, but it was no changing of the guard. Nicole Mahaney couldn’t be assigned her mother’s position without being married to the new Senior Pastor, and it wouldn’t’ do to have Joshua Harris’ new wife take over the role from Carolyn and out rank her & her daughters, so Shannon Harris was politely relegated to the background while Carolyn kept her job. (One must realize that within the strict complementarianism that Carolyn Mahaney taught, the only true form of “career” advancement for women, with it’s associated honors and opportunities, rested in marrying a man who could provide her with a position “serving” alongside him. A pastor’s status was conferred within SGM to the wife. And although Carolyn Mahaney would vehementaly deny this, she wanted more for herself and her daughters than being “stay at home Mom’s, focused exclusively on their families because that’s the highest calling a woman has”. It was sure easy for Carolyn Mahaney to preach that messasge to women while hiding the extent of her involvement in CLC, while she worked continuously at developing a name for herself and her own career. And she completely expected that her daughters would follow in her same footsteps by marrying men who would provide them with a status and a career within the SGM system. For surely, no woman should do something as brash as attend college and work to develop a career path that was focused outside the home. It was crystal clear: Carolyn Mahaney thought she was *the* standard of biblical womanhood to which all women should aspire to. Joshua Harris’ book may have been damaging in and of itself, but it was the culture Carolyn Mahaney helped establish within CLC (and SGM) that made it particularly toxic. For there was no one else apart from Carolyn Mahaney that managed the message to women within SGM and at CLC than Carolyn. She played a key role while acting the whole time like she was this nice, quiet little church mouse.

    Thanks for sharing this.

    This certainly helps give more detail to the history. A reason C.J. Mahaney gave for fleeing to Capitol HIll Baptist when his sin and hypocrisy was exposed (vs. remaining at CLC like he similarly required other pastors to do) was protecting his wife. With Carolyn Mahaney still being so connected at CLC and having her own little “kingdom” there the exposure of her husband’s sin and hypocrisy and their drop in status I was as hard or harder on Carolyn then it was for C.J. Mahaney.

    Interesting to see Carolyn is like her husband C.J. Mahaney where it is a practice what I say vs. what I do. I am sure with her and her daughters’ “Girl Talk” blog they have brought in some additional income for the Mahaney families.


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    @ elastigirl:

    elastigirl- oops! That was badly worded/punctuated. Instead of Godly, I should’ve said Biblebeltish.

    And the description should’ve been a separate paragraph- it was just a general description of the diversity of the state. It had nothing to do with anyone in those groups not having or having Godliness.

    For the record, we are currently not in a “church”. So I suppose we’d fall into the unchurched category even though we love the Lord.

    I’m so sorry to have offended. I don’t comment on things as a rule just for that reason- it’s scary. Guess I’ll go back to just reading. 🙂


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    @ Tree:

    We did read IKDG when it first came out, but my kids were too young for dating. We saw it as a very general guideline for middle school/high school ages. Which, if my memory serves me, was what age group we thought he was addressing. I’m not sure about that though as it’s been long gone from our house!

    Once the kids got older they’ve gone the more “intentional dating” route – with lots of prayer!

    On DHT, I’m thinking of having my youngest read it – after I read it. 🙂

    I think that a problem with books on ‘how to’ in general is people taking them as their bible and becoming a follower of this or that philosophy. That is not to say that books don’t have value, but I believe only the Bible deserves that kind of place in my life.

    I hope that made sense, I’m not too good at getting my thoughts written out, and am a bit worried about how it comes across.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    I am sure with her and her daughters’ “Girl Talk” blog they have brought in some additional income for the Mahaney families.

    The blog is basically a promotion site for their books and for the youngest daughter’s photography and artwork business. And daddy’s books (and sermons) get plugged every now and again too of course.


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      __

    “SGM/SGC, Inc. You Can Check Out Any Time You Like, But You Can Never Leave?”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0QDf0xt-40

    hmmm…

    Hey Brent :,

    Respectfully,

      If the conclusion of your upcoming book does not lead to justice, for the kind folk you ‘helped’ to injure, your hope is poorly spent.

    Making sure you tell kind folk, you are sorry, as well, can’t hurt…
     …I say unto you, Love your enemies, Bless them that curse you, do Good to them that hate you, and Pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you… ~Jesus

    We do.

    ATB

    Sopy
    ___
    (sorry bout your wife…)


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    Kay wrote:

    I think that a problem with books on ‘how to’ in general is people taking them as their bible and becoming a follower of this or that philosophy

    One of may favourite bible teachers used to have a horror of ‘how to’ books. He felt you would start to follow a formula instead of getting at a general biblical principle and applying with thought and care to the individual circumstances. It also can replace the Holy Spirit nudging believers in the right direction and giving them wisdom.

    Of course to write a ‘how to’ book makes the giant assumption that the author actually knows how to do it himself or herself. Not a particularly modest claim!

    Mind you, I think I have had moments that would qualify me to write a book on How To Get It Wrong!! Replete with study guide to assist the reader and questions for general discussion.


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    @ Kay:

    hi, Kay. thanks for the clarification. I understand now. you didn’t offend me. I just disagreed (strongly) with what I thought you were saying. No cause for worry.

    Please keep commenting — your perspective has value and contributes to the multifaceted nature of the conversation. there’s nothing more boring than a conversation where everyone agrees with each other (& of course it’s not even possible — such agreement is only pretend and is as synthetic as the powder in a pink packet of Sweet ‘n Low). and nothing more unsatisfying than a conversation restricted from honest thought and communication (with discretion).

    as we go though our daily life, we step on people’s toes by accident more than we realize–it’s ok–people tend to be resilient and forgiving and get over things like that. the goodness and uniquely quirky wonderfulness of our personhood fingerprint far outweigh toe-stepping-on proclivities. I think most people recognize that.

    all to say, please interact with your thoughts. your comments are appreciated and they help keep things interesting and rich.


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    @ Sopwith:

    Thanks again Sopy. Hendrix covered Dylan with aplomb and in my opinion this young woman does the best cover of Hendrix’s Strat-work I’ve ever heard. The nuance and attention to detail is hands down top o’ the heap.


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    Brent,

    I will be praying for your wife, you and your family. The Lord is constantly at work in our lives and although we never know the reasons for “why?”, we do know that He is in complete control of all. We’ve had a lot of “why” questions in our lives over the past 3-4 years in our immediate family and with our close circle of relatives and friends. I am just freshly reminded that God’s ways are not our ways, He loves those that are His and He pours out His blessings on us each and every day.


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    @ Somewhereintime:

    Haven’t been in SGM circles so it isn’t personal like it is for so many who have been hurt. I don’t want to be an apologist for Josh, but ISTM that Josh can be the one to ultimately expose not just the coverup but also the toxicity of the underlying Gothardism/Rushdoonyism/Shepherding theology that has wrecked so many lives and marriages over the last 4 decades or so.

    He’s seen behind the Mahaney and SGM curtain like few others have, so we can pray that his head will clear and that he will listen to different voices at Regent that can help him interpret his time in MahaneyWorld with a truly biblical perspective. That would be the Saul/Paul story all over again, and it would be a marvelous thing for the church to see such repentance and reconciliation.


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    Kay wrote:

    We did read IKDG when it first came out, but my kids were too young for dating. We saw it as a very general guideline for middle school/high school ages. Which, if my memory serves me, was what age group we thought he was addressing. I’m not sure about that though as it’s been long gone from our house!

    That is one of my biggest points. This is something more designed for teenagers especially more at the middle school and possibly high school age. A shame when they try and take something designed for that age group and impose it on all ages as a “one size fits all” way to go.

    I always found the title of one blog that included “regretting” kissing dating goodbye interesting. This person found that follow the book’s teach lead to him being an older single man with little social skills with single women. He attributed it to following that pattern.

    I will never forget one person commenting on a blog that it was interesting that Josh Harris after dating and learning social skills with the opposite sex wrote a book that encouraged others not to date and thus not develop social skills.

    My experience with KDG is that it leads to people learning to avoid relationships with those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to do it properly.


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    Gram,

    It will never happen. Harris had the opportunity to do this MANY times to protect the sheep and for the honor of our Lord. He did not. He will not.
    Great, he pulled CLC out of SGM. Not too much of a big deal when you think about it. It’s like one pulling their hand out of the fire.
    To your point, he lived in Mahaney’s basement. He knows practically EVERYTHING that Mahaney did. Like most, if not all, SGM pastors, he chose to look the other way.

    His love of CJ was, and still is, greater than his love of Christ and of the truth.

    @ Gram3:


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    New book by Joshua Harris — I KISSED CLC GOODBYE?


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    Steve240 wrote:

    I will never forget one person commenting on a blog that it was interesting that Josh Harris after dating and learning social skills with the opposite sex wrote a book that encouraged others not to date and thus not develop social skills.

    I haven’t read the book, but the title certainly implies that Harris had experienced at least some dating, in which case that comment would be fair and accurate – and I agree that it is fascinating and insightful. The whole question of what might be good about dating, what Harris himself learned out of it, and how to avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater, might just be one that the book never addresses.

    I have read the blurb about the book that appears on the Amazon marketing page for it. Now, of course, the blurb is not the book. But two sentences therein caught my attention, and not in a good way.

    Dodgy marketing phrase 1 of 2

    … with its inspiring call to sincere love, real purity, and purposeful singleness…
    This reminds me of: Let your yes be yes, and your no, no. Why do they need the qualifying adjectives with “love” and “purity”? Do they think everybody else has ulterior love and fake purity? And what is “purposeful” about singleness if the idea is still to end it with marriage?

    Dodgy marketing phrase 2 of 2

    …it challenges cultural assumptions about relationships and provides solid, biblical alternatives to society’s norm.
    OK… but who has challenged the book’s own assumptions? Sadly, the word “biblical” has been so over-used as a marketing gimmick that, to me, it is now practically a synonym for prideful, arrogant or self-deluded.

    Whether Harris himself is, or was, that prideful, arrogant or self-deluded, I don’t really know. I’ve had a look at Umstattd’s blog, to which you linked – I agree about the level of buy-my-book marketing on it, but also that it has some very good material. He makes the interesting observation that it was older leaders in the church’s cultural hierarchy, and not Harris himself, who (in Umstattd’s word * ) “weaponised” the book to help propagate their own teachings.

    * Strictly speaking, Umstattd spells it with a zed.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I haven’t read the book, but the title certainly implies that Harris had experienced at least some dating, in which case that comment would be fair and accurate – and I agree that it is fascinating and insightful. The whole question of what might be good about dating, what Harris himself learned out of it, and how to avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater, might just be one that the book never addresses.

    In fairness to Josh people will say that he never said dating was wrong or “sinful.” When I read the book a long time ago I think if it was taken with grace and not in a legalistic manner it wouldn’t have had nearly the negative affects that it did. On the other hand Josh did very little to try and counteract the negative effects his book had.

    For Josh Harris he needed to “kiss dating goodbye” because dating had too much emphasis in his life. Why people would take what worked for Josh due to his situation should be what everyone else did is beyond me.

    Josh also didn’t really define what he was kissing goodbye. “Dating” can mean a lot of things. I go into it more detail on one of my blog pages but Josh claimed later that he could have said I kissed “short term premature selfish directionless romantic relationships” goodbye but that would have been too long of a title for a book. Sadly his book lead to many singles “kissing goodbye” any type of relationships or interaction with the opposite sex.

    https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/what-is-“dating”-and-what-did-harris-supposedly-“kiss-goodbye”/

    Josh could have very well meant well with his book but sadly has done little if anything to correct the problems it has created.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    In fairness to Josh people will say that he never said dating was wrong or “sinful.” When I read the book a long time ago I think if it was taken with grace and not in a legalistic manner it wouldn’t have had nearly the negative affects that it did.

    Agreed. The book itself isn’t bad, I used it in my ministry, but in the hands of naive people wanting a magic formula, it quickly spun out of control.


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    Janey wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    In fairness to Josh people will say that he never said dating was wrong or “sinful.” When I read the book a long time ago I think if it was taken with grace and not in a legalistic manner it wouldn’t have had nearly the negative affects that it did.
    Agreed. The book itself isn’t bad, I used it in my ministry, but in the hands of naive people wanting a magic formula, it quickly spun out of control.

    Janey

    I am glad to hear you have been able to successfully use Harris’s book in your ministry. From all that I have heard, you are an exception or more likely an aberration (quite an exception). Most groups where this book is promoted end up having all sorts of issues and problems. The books application has been that people are at one extreme and then it moves them to another extreme.

    Again it is sad that Harris has done very little to try and counteract the negative effects including “people wanting a magic formula.” People become so conceited about something like this that they won’t admit the problems with this approach or its limitations. Thus when one won’t admit their aren’t any problems with it they see no need to fine tune its application and sadly won’t learn from its history of problems.

    I am glad to see sites where people question the KDG mentality vs. blindly accept it like seemed to be the case for so many people when it first came out. If Josh Harris would just admit the problems KDG has caused would be a good start.

    I would be curious to hear how you were able to correctly apply this vs. the misapplication that is so common with this “alternative” to dating. You could either post here or find my email address on my blog.


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    Janey

    One other thought. Josh Harris does use a shopping cart illustration

    https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/josh-harris%E2%80%99s-shopping-cart-illustration-does-%E2%80%9Ckdg%E2%80%9D-just-change-the-cart%E2%80%99s-drifting-direction/

    These are the shopping carts that never seem to want to go in the direction that you are trying to push them. With these carts you always have to make adjustments or they will veer off course either into a food display or another shopper. These are the “swervers” to avoid when shopping.

    Maybe there are some pitfalls and a natural tendency to possibly go the wrong way with dating. On the other hand, with KDG it seems to also be a “swerving” system that always take people to legalism with it and singles avoiding relating to the of the opposite sex vs. learning how to relate to one another.

    A shame Harris can’t see the natural “swerving” of his alternative to dating.


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    Steve240 wrote:

    Maybe there are some pitfalls and a natural tendency to possibly go the wrong way with dating. On the other hand, with KDG it seems to also be a “swerving” system that always take people to legalism with it and singles avoiding relating to the of the opposite sex vs. learning how to relate to one another.

    “But it swerves in the OPPOSITE direction!”


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    Not surprised by all that has happened with PDI / SG / CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris. I 1st met all these people and leaders in 2000 and several came to my church to preach. The are openly very nice men. But I discerned conduct, attitudes and practices that set off spiritual RED FLAGS that the entire operation was built upon the Vain worship and doctrines of men and was headed for a crash that would bring great harm to people, and would cause the blind to follow the blind. No matter how many sermons I heard from CJ, he always came across as a clown injecting very stupid unnecessary humor, which is often an indicator for other internal esteem issues.

    NOW,it has all come to pass. The Volcano has exploded, many have been harmed and the wounded are enumerable for generations.
    HAS real genuine repentance happened?
    Who can really say and know? Only God !

    Now Harris is off to another Institution of men who will sit him down in their basement and now explain the Bible to Josh from their perspective.
    Another failure for Josh, another victory for Lucifer.

    Josh, it is this simple, Flee the doctrines and theology of men.
    YOUR only medicine, open Matthew Mark Luke and John, consume them till you are healed
    and your mind renewed to hear the Masters Voice only.
    It is the ONLY way to heal and repair and be reconciled to God.
    Deny self, Listen to his voice, follow what he commanded.
    Please become fully aware of the Schemes and Devices of Lucifer.
    Only Matthew Mark Luke and John can destroy the doctrinal cancer and vain ideas of men that have poisoned multitudes.

    A snapshot of sin is man substituting himself for God!

    There are over 40,000 Christian colleges in the world,, Are they all correct?
    Is yours?
    Which ones has Lucifer beguiled?
    UNTIL you can only hear his voice You will never be able to spot a counterfeit.
    You do not need a MAN to explain to you what the Bible and the Master speaks.

    MY sheep,,, hear MY voice and follow me.
    Renew the mind, back to the Masters voice.

    FEB 10, 2015
    Please put current post at the top, It helps readers!
    Thanks