“Whenever we face a situation that is ‘not good’, we can believe that God is behind it and wants to meet us in it.”
John Loftness (in his message on Work delivered at Covenant Life Church – 2002)
When the class action lawsuit was filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries et al last October, we wondered about the defendants. We were familiar with their names; yet we knew very little about some of them. In this post we are going to take a closer look at John Loftness, who recently resigned as Chairman of the Board of Sovereign Grace Ministries. Here goes…
John Loftness currently serves as Senior Pastor at Solid Rock Church, located in Riverdale, Maryland. Solid Rock began in 1975 and joined the Sovereign Grace Ministries family of churches in 1987. Here is his biographical information on the church website:
"John Loftness, Senior Pastor, has been a pastor since 1981, most of that time at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD. John came to be Solid Rock's pastor in September of 2007."
On March 19, 2012, Dave Harvey announced SGM's new board. Here is the information about John Loftness that was presented on the SGM website:
"John Loftness received a B.A. from Houghton College in 1978 and has studied extensively at the Masters degree level at Fuller Theological Seminary and Reformed Theological Seminary. He began his career as a pastor in 1981 when he joined the staff at Covenant Life Church. Over the years has served in a variety of roles in local churches and in SGM, primarily as a pastor. From 1990-2007 he served exclusively at Covenant Life. In 2007, John left Covenant Life to become the senior pastor of Solid Rock Church in Riverdale, Maryland."
Then on April 14, 2012, Loftness was appointed Chairman, as indicated in the post Update on Sovereign Grace Board:
"We also nominated, discussed, and approved officers for the Board. John Loftness will serve as Chairman and Paul Buckley as Vice-Chairman. Tommy Hill, though he is not a Board member, will continue his service as Secretary and Treasurer."
A short ten months later, Loftness resigned as SGM's Chairman of the Board. Here is an excerpt from that February 18, 2013 announcement on the Sovereign Grace Ministries website: Board Update Regarding John Loftness
"John has worked hard to serve the Board and our churches since July, 2011. He has logged countless hours as a Board member and since March, 2012, as the Chairman of the Board. He has done all this while serving as the Senior Pastor of Solid Rock Church."
John Loftness contributed a chapter in the book Why Small Groups, and page vi includes some information on Loftness, indicating that he was:
"a former school teacher, principal, and editor of People of Destiny magazine (later Sovereign Grace Ministries magazine), has served Covenant Life Church as a pastor full-time since 1989."
We found the following excerpt, written by Loftness and included in the Why Small Groups book, interesting in light of recent accusations against him. Loftness wrote:
"Each of us has family responsibilities in the church. Fellowship encompasses a major responsibility to care for another's soul and to get help for our own so that together we can be all that God intends us to be.
A good local church–and a good small group–is like the best of families. Good families take responsibility for each other. Good families are honest with each other. Good families take care of each other. Good families deal with their problems. Good families love each other–no one is lonely. Good families love and respect the head of the household–in our case the one we call Father and Lord." (Why Small Groups, p. 29)
Shortly after the class action lawsuit was filed against SGM,The Christian Post published Sovereign Grace Ministries Accused of Covering Up Child Sexual Assaults. Here is an excerpt from that post involving Loftness:
"The parents of Norma Noe, another plaintiff, found out that their then 2-year-old daughter had allegedly been abused by someone who served as a babysitter for one of the ministry's Home Groups in Maryland.
They called the police the day after the incident. They then called Loftness, who allegedly told them, "Do not call the police" and said it was an issue that should be handled by church leadership. The church also tried to arrange a meeting between Noe and her predator so they could be "reconciled" to one another, the complaint states, which further traumatized the girl."
Additional charges against John Loftness are forthcoming. Peter Lumpkins has chimed in on Loftness in a post published earlier today. Here is an excerpt:
"More top officials at SGM are being arraigned in the sex abuse scandal reportedly including John Loftness who resigned as Chairman of the Board for SGM on February 18. Last week it was announced that a plaintiff has come forth alleging John Loftness physically and sexually abused her as a child."
The amended lawsuit names John Loftness in Norma Noe's testimony. It is included below and can be found here and here.
74. On or about March 17, 1993, a church member sexually molested Norma Noe. Norma Noe was two years old at the time of the sexual assault and living in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
75. The parents of Norma Noe learned of the abuse the day after it occurred. They immediately called the police and reported the assault. After calling the police, they contacted Defendant Loftness. He immediately advised the parents “do not call the police.” When the parents of Norma Noe advised Defendant Loftness that they had already called the police, he expressed his displeasure (stating “that is going to be a problem”), and explained that such matters were handled internally by the church leadership, not by secular authorities.
76. Defendants, acting through Defendant Loftness, immediately interfered with the administration of justice by tipping off the perpetrator that the parents had reported his sexual predation to the police. Defendant Loftness also took steps to ensure that other church members in the neighborhood were not alerted to the crime.
77. Defendant Loftness continued to interfere with the impartial administration of justice. Defendant Loftness “obtained” a confession from the predator, and began to serve as an intermediary between the police and the predator in order to control and prevent the dissemination of information to other families whose children were at risk of predation.
78. Defendants required the parents of Norma Noe to bring Norma Noe to a meeting to be “reconciled” with her predator. When Norma Noe (who had just turned three) was brought into the same room with her predator, she was visibly scared and crawled under the chair. The “reconciliation” meeting created additional damage to Norma Noe, already traumatized by the initial abuse, and traumatized the parents of Norma Noe.
79. Defendant Loftness involved Defendants Ricucci and Layman to assist him in disseminating false and misleading information to the police and to church members.
80. Defendants did not take any steps whatsoever to learn the extent of sexual predation by the predator, such as advising the police that the predator had been charged with the care of numerous toddlers in his role as a Home Group babysitter. The parents of other children exposed to the predator were never advised of the sexual assault, and never counseled to be alert for signs of trauma in their children.
81. Defendants advised the parents of Norma Noe that they were required to remain completely silent about who had committed the assault, and thus refrain from providing other members of the Church information needed to protect their own children from the sexual predation.
82. Defendants required the parents of Norma Noe to refrain from telling any other church members the name of the sexual predator who had sexual assaulted their three-year old daughter.
83. Defendants knowingly permitted the sexual predator to continue to participate, unsupervised, in church activities with children despite his conviction for molesting Norma Noe.
84. Defendants withheld information from the parents of Norma Noe about the assault that the Church had obtained directly from the predator.
85. Defendants misled the parents in order to prevent them from attending court appearances and filing a victim impact statement.
86. Upon information and belief, the juvenile perpetrator who molested Norma Noe may have previously been a victim of the pedophilia ring operating at the School.
We have learned from an extremely reliable source that John Loftness was present at the reconciliation meeting described in #78 and that his expectation was that the toddler would forgive her abuser. How sick is that? Shame on you John Loftness! Those words you wrote in Why Small Groups about 'a good local church' and 'good families' are a sham in light of how you traumatized a little three year old girl. How despicable!
On June 15, 2011, Kris over at SGM Survivors explained in comment #168 that she received the following e-mail which she had been given permission to share: (link)
"Hi Kris, all the conversation on the blog has brought to mind several SGM marriage retreats we have attended over the years. Yes, CJ has been credited as being the consummate romantic; greater than Larry, anyway. Larry and later Josh have been asked to teach and write books on roving eyes and lust, but CJ has always gotten high marks on ‘loving’ his wife. And, he led all but the last retreat on sex. And they have always been well-attended, but still, there was always much pressure to attend. There were mixed main sessions and men and women have individual sessions where they get into much more details, such as sex toys (men) and lubricants (women). Since I wasn’t in the men’s session I don’t know why they brought up sex toys but I heard they did. At a women’s session, Shannon, Julie, Marie and Valori had a panel discussion. I kept my eye on the exit, as in my experience, these sessions always present ‘cringe’ TMI moments. I really wish to be spared hearing about the sexual exploits of the pastors and their wives. Do we really need to know how much they love to observe each other’s naked bodies or how much moisture needs to be added to the event? Goodness! But, the all-time saddest story was once told by CJ in mentioning how Carolyn used to ‘serve’ him even as she suffered from ‘morning sickness’. I’m sure her condition kept her from doing much of anything else but not this. His comments still grieve me. He chose to use it as an example about romancing your spouse. He complained how ‘unromantic’ it was that when Carolyn was pregnant, she needed to get up and ‘vomit’ after intercourse. He laughed loudly and used it as comic relief in his talk. Okay. Here his wife was so sick that all the commotion of ‘serving his needs’ made her so violently ill that she needed to flee to the bathroom to expel her dinner and he was reduced to peels of laughter as he lead the whole room to join him? His needs obviously exceed his wife’s needs. I never looked at him quite the same again."
Mahaney's testimony about his intimacy with his wife is extremely disturbing. This is not normal behavior in a church meeting or otherwise!
And let's not forget that when the Mahaneys fled from Covenant Life Church, they first went to Dever's Capitol Hill Baptist Church and then to Solid Rock Church, where John Loftness served as the Mahaneys' shepherd.
When we put all of these puzzle pieces together, there appears to be some extremely bizarre behavior in this 'family of churches'. First of all, we have the leader of SGM, C.J. Mahaney, divulging extremely sensitive information in a public forum. Then Dee and I heard Mahaney brag in person to a local SGM congregation that his marriage is S-I-Z-Z-L-I-N-G! And John Loftness demands that a toddler forgive her abuser, among other serious issues…
Something is VERY WRONG, and it appears there are much deeper issues in Sovereign Grace Ministries. We are left wondering whether SGM has systemic problems that they have tried to keep hidden for decades.
"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light." Luke 8:17 (NASB)
Lydia's Corner: Judges 15:1-16:31 John 2:1-25 Psalm 103:1-22 Proverbs 14:17-19
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The Norma Noe case is so heartbreaking – and frustrating! Why did this leader get to walk all over this family? I am not a fan of TGC/neo-Calvinist's obsession with authority in any way shape or form, but this is ridiculous. As if a church can manage criminal actions "in-house". These people have to be rudely awakened to the fact that they are really nothing in the scheme of things – even the Catholic church (far, far, more powerful) was not able to protect its priests from the courts. If anything, they are giving the government good reasons to eradicate laws protecting churches – Pastors not being conscripted, tax-free status, clergy living-allowance. It may be time to treat churches like other country clubs – if they collect dues (mandatory tithes), tax them. And I hope the first amendment appeal backfires on them hugely. Piper says women should endure abuse for a night – then take it to the church (ha!), CJ et. al. say raping a two year old should be hidden from the police. These pastors are trying to operate outside of the law – this better be stopped.
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“Malicious Blog Stocking: Disconcerting Discourse?”
“Each of us has family responsibilities in the church. Fellowship encompasses a major responsibility to care for another’s soul and to get help for our own so that together we can be all that God intends us to be.” -John Loftness
HowDee,
hmmm…
[Personal SoapBox Moment…]
Crunnnnnnnnnch!
It would appear, Gavin White’s recent post comments violated Wartburg Watch policies of posting and blogosphere edaquet last week and became subject to removal, banning, and a general bad taste in the proverbial pallet for their actions.
It would seem that Gavin White failed to cooperation with Wartburg Watch in maintaining a courteous and useful public environment where the engagement in reasonable thought provoking discourse, is made possible.
(Shame on you Gavin White…)
Gavin White apparently (from my point of view) has been stocking Wartburg Watch since November of last year.
For what purpose?
Huh?
Apparently, Gavin White is (from my point of view) currently known to stock Wartburg Watch commenters to other blogs and harassing them , and making false accusations to discredit them and limit their ability of fruitful blogosphere dialog engagement.
http://jaredmoore.exaltchrist.com/2013/03/22/top-christian-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-31476
(Again, Shame on you Gavin White…)
Which leads to the question –as to ‘Why’ Gavin White was posting at Wartburg Wartch in the first place? And Who’s interests does Gavin White represent?
hmmm…
The First Amendment protects the right to freedom of expression from government interference.
ok.
However, when you submit a comment on Wartburg Watch , it is my understanding that an individual is posting on private web property and comments are bound by Wartburg Watch websites’ policies.
Sure.
It is also my understanding that posts violating Wartburg Watch policies of posting are subject to removal, and the user may face bbbbbbbanning. Removal and banning from Wartburg Watch is a drastic safeguard measure.
Lyons, and Tigers, and Bears…Oh My!
Note: As Dee stated earlier, drastic removal and banning from Wartburg Watch has only occurred some four or so times in the past to date.
—-> Bad folk, doing bad stuff.
(sadface)
We commend Dee, and Deb for their efforts to date for bring ‘aid’ and ‘comfort’ to the many victims of spiritual abusive practices.
Known and documented abuses within Sovereign Grace Ministries is only a part of this effort.
✿*´¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ “Is There A Wartburg Watch Religious Test?”*´¨)
What?
Just as there is no religious test for public office, there is no religious requirement for posting at Wartburg Watch. I am grateful to Wartburg Watch for this broad stroke of genius!
(Apparently, poster Gavin White forgot that or choose deliberately to disregard that…)
In closing, may I offer my sincere thanks to all for their cooperation with Wartburg Watch for keeping and maintaining a courteous and useful public environment where the engagement in reasonable thought provoking discourse, is made ever-so possible.
I have benefited most greatly for this effort.
(smiley face goes here)
Bravo! Kind Folk! 🙂
Bravo Wartburg! 🙂
When I survey the wonders of Wartburg…. hum, hum, hum…
… Ize pretty dang grateful.
‘So are the victims of nefarious snake in da proverbial grass’ spiritual abusers.
Hi Ho..?
>-((S“㋡”py((º>™
—
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Deb
Great post.
When I read that these charges against Loftness would allegedly be forthcoming (Lawyers; Take Note: keep adding allegedly in front of very word that I say) on Saturday, I became deeply disturbed. For some time I had thought the SGM leaders were just a bunch of dangerous yahoos, thinking that they could “heal” pedophiles and exact “forgiveness.”
However, when one puts together statements like the one Mahaney made in this post(he laughed???) one is led to the possibility that there is something darker going on.
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I don’t think the sexually charged meetings were limited to CLC within SGM. Our small groups had an annual discussion about sex around Valentine’s Day, which were disturbing on many levels, as I recount here:
http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-thoughts-on-sexualization-of-church.html
And again, my thoughts on the silencing and shaming of sexual abuse victims: http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.in/2013/01/abuse-thrives-in-culture-of-shame-and.html
Virginia
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I can testify to a similar thing happening at the Knoxville SGM church – Cornerstone Church of Knoxville. My husband and I attended a leaders retreat. They divided the men and women and the senior pastor and his wife respectively addressed us. Of course the topic was sex. The women were taught the 3 A’s…that we were to be 1)Attractive 2)Attentive and 3)Available to our husbands. Meanwhile the men were discussing multiple orgasms. This is no joke, the senior pastor told my husband and all of the leaders that if their wives were not having multiple orgasms then something was wrong. You are correct…something is VERY wrong.
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FYI: According to the new post at http://www.recoveringgrace.org, April is sexual abuse awareness month. Recovering Grace is a web site for people who have been negatively influenced by the teachings of Bill Gothard and his ATI/IBLP programs, which have also been associated with mishandled sex abuse cases.
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@ Michelle: I read a book on a partial history of the charismatic/shepherding movement called Days of Firs and Glory by Julia Duin. One of the things that struck me was that sexual immorality was rampant. This jived with some other things that I have read about the Jesus movement out on the west coast in the same time frame.
When I look at the charges in the lawsuit and combine it with some of these statements (CJ laughing about his wife’s morning sickness) along with the other reports of rather bizarre “talks”, I fear we may be looking at the tip of the iceberg.
Something appears wrong and I have been trying to put my finger on it for a long time. Instead of things fading away, it continues to grow with each new allegation. I hate conspiracy theories. However, with report after report of strange talks coupled with the lawsuit, one would have to be totally disengaged not to become concerned.
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@ Eagle: If Carolyn Mahaney agreed to this, it is not rape. However, it could be considered abuse by some. How sad I feel for her if she thinks that this is normative for “godly” husbands. Perhaps she has a harsh view of God as well.
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Looke at this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/03/north-carolina-religion-bill_n_3003401.html
NC lawmakers are trying to have an official state religion. Some are asserting that the First Amendment only applies to Congress, not the states. Who could possibly think this is a good idea? It never works out.
The comments on the article are interesting. Several people think NC is trying to re-start the Civil War.
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Eagle,
It was a late night. Why do I sometimes deprive myself of sleep to get the post right? Because I love you guys and don’t want you to get hurt.
Thanks for your concern, Eagle! You’re a great friend.
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@ Eagle: Very much agreed, Eagle.
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They act like sixteen year olds with sex on the brain. Yuck. These husbands who supposedly are loving their wives as Christ loved the church should be on the defensive when some church leader acts as if their wives should be little pleasure factories for the man. Christ in no way talks to his bride in this manner. This is giving a wrong picture of what unity within the Christian faith looks like. For any bible scholars out there, is this teaching heretical? Do you know of any ancient church heresies that mirror this SGM nonsense?
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I always looked at all that intimate sex talk in SGM as a way to be super-conservative theologically while saying to the world that “we’re cool, we can out-talk, one-up you about intimate sexual issues.” That’s kind of how I see all the cigar and ale talk in reformed circles at the moment. “HEY, WE’RE NOT FUNDAMENTALISTS!”
That of course does not go into the whole issue of how appropriate/inappropriate it was. At our church the pastor’s wives were notorious for going into a lot of intimate details with other women in the church, and there was a point when the pastors decided to rein that in. Around the same time of the first CJ sex sermons and his ridiculous book on “intimacy and the glory of God.”
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How disturbing. I did not know about the sex education retreats requirement. gag
And Deb, remember how Mahaney made a comment abut how the marriage is still sizzlin’ very recently at a large conference…cannot remember which one…but I think it was a J. Mac one, iirc. The last Resolved?
And it is beyond sick how Loftness treated that toddler by allegedly making her “forgive” her alleged abuser…as if she knows what abuser and forgive even means?? What, oh what is wrong with these people?
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@ HoppyTheToad:
I’m sure reconstructionists love this idea.
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John Loftness is also mentioned in a very heartbreaking story…exclcer’s…link above in the sidebar.
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Julie Anne sends cyber hugs and support to the survivors and their families in this particular story. I’m sure just reading this article and rehashing can make the day an emotional one. You are loved and prayed for!!
In Peter’s article he quotes from Challies talking about making the gospel look great. Challies and others are making “gospel” decisions by ignoring. The outside world is watching these “gospel” decisions and showing the gospel to be a fraud. A gospel decision would be to call out abuse and defend the wounded sheep. They have it all backwards.
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I think I am going to faint…JL was the main abuser in my case…he “counseled” me that my porn addicted and abusive husband did not need counseling and that I needed to submit to his “leadership” during 10 weeks of coercive meetings. I suffered 7 years of PTSD. It nearly destroyed my extended family as well. I always heard and suspected that a man that would counsel me that way was probably guilty of abuse himself. That was in 1995.
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“Do we really need to know how much they love to observe each other’s naked bodies or how much moisture needs to be added to the event? Goodness! But, the all-time saddest story was once told by CJ in mentioning how Carolyn used to ‘serve’ him even as she suffered from ‘morning sickness’. I’m sure her condition kept her from doing much of anything else but not this. His comments still grieve me. He chose to use it as an example about romancing your spouse. He complained how ‘unromantic’ it was that when Carolyn was pregnant, she needed to get up and ‘vomit’ after intercourse. He laughed loudly and used it as comic relief in his talk. ”
What disturbs me is this is the new normal in Christendom. How is this any different than Driscoll at Acts 29 boot camp telling the pastors and wives that whe she is not up to it, she should offer up her backside to him.
I guess I am shocked that more men and women sitting in the audience listening to these reprobates don’t get up and walk out. It is so childish and selfish it boggles my mind. Where is the Holy Spirit for these people?
They are disgusting and crude.
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It’s beyond me why any leaders think it is their job to tell couples what their sex life should be like!!! Every couple is different and they don’t need to conform to the world’s, CJ’s, or the Micky Mouse man’s ideas of what intimate relationships in a marriage should involve. Think about the guilt and stress added to relationships when couple’s sex habits don’t appear to look the way they should (according to the sex gurus anyway)?!? Imagine IF a leader is a sex addict and teaches what sex in marriage should be like. Imagine if one’s spouse is a sex addict and you are taught to always be available. Imagine if someone has been abused and finds they struggle with sex, or there is illness that affects sex and/or sex drive.
Where is scripture are people told to instruct others in such things. There is almost nothing written about sexual conduct within in marriage. If couples come with questions and concerns then be wise with what you say and don’t add burdens to their backs. Medical doctors do know a lot about the body. Pastor’s are better off covering the love and relational aspects of relationships which are definitely covered in scripture.
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The fact that Loftness and others allegedly failed to warn other parents (for whom the alleged perpetrator was babysitting) is crazy. The fact that they allegedly ACTUALLY TOOK STEPS TO PREVENT WARNINGS FROM GETTING OUT is absolutely horrific.
Can you imagine if you were someone who had been part of this group back in the day, and you were just now hearing about this, and wondering if anything ever happened to your kid? I can’t imagine the terror and fury.
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Bridget wrote:
Bridget, I used to tell the YRR around me so excited about Driscoll to talk to an ER doctor before they take Driscoll’s advice on sodomy. He has absolutely no care for the health and welfare of women….especially his wife. He is reprobate.
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“Silence is one of the most common failures of the Christian community in preventing child abuse. In 2 Samuel 13, upon learning that his sister Tamar had been raped by her brother Amnon, Absalom stated, Keep silent my sister, he is your brother, do not take this matter to heart. Tragically, not much has changed in over three thousand years. Too many within the Christian community respond to the prevalence of child abuse with a dangerous and very hurtful silence. A silence that is too often preferred over acknowledging the existence of such evil within our midst. A silence that is too often preferred over openly discussing how to protect our little ones from perpetrators. A silence that is too often preferred over the hard work required to develop and implement effective child protection policies. A silence that is too often preferred over the cries of hurting children.” – Boz Tchividjian, No More Silence: An Interview with Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian
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@ Diane:
Wanted to clarify “these people” as Loftness and any other pastors involved…not in any way did I mean the victims.
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Sopwith wrote:
Many pastors will teach that as the bible stating silence on such matters is a GOOD thing.
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Why exactly did pastors start dispensing detailed sex advice…?
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Q: “What are some of the most common mistakes churches and Christian organizations make when it comes to responding to abuse? ”
BT: “The greatest failure of the church/Christian organizations when it comes to responding to abuse is institutional self-protection. ”
BT: “Too often Christian institutions have been willing to sacrifice the individual human soul in exchange for the protection of their own reputation.”
BT: “What makes such responses even more heinous is that they are often justified in the name of ‘protecting the name of Christ’. ”
BT: “Such a justification is nothing but a pious attempt at self-protection.”
– Boz Tchividjian, No More Silence: Rachel Held Evans, An Interview with Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian
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@ sad observer:
Similar to Doug Wilson and the Sitler case. Wilson waited 8 months before telling his followers that a pedophile had been living in their midst for 18 months, iirc. And when he did inform, it was to a mens only “heads of husehold” meeting. In Wilson’s mind, since Sitler had been arrested, the children of his cult-ish church were safe…but he failed to realize (or did realize and did not wish to address) that there could possibly have been more victims yet to be discovered, which would have been made apparent upon questioning by parents to their children if only they had access to the information about Sitler’s arrest when it happened. Horribly sad.
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@ Eagle:
It’s a combination of a particular interpretation of “biblical” and “Christian Sex™ – just like the world’s but better because You’re Married!” and self-will run riot.
Those men would not know what real love looks like if it bit them in the a$$. Which is why they, as well as their wives and other victims, need our prayers. Again, it’s very likely that the attitudes they have were formed in relationships where they were being abused in some way.
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“… plain reading of Romans 13, clearly indicates that the civil government plays a role in God’s design for society and His people.”
“…there seems to be a general consensus among Christians that the civil government has a general duty and obligation to establish order within society for the purpose of protecting its citizenry from physical harm intentionally inflicted by others.”
…A central purpose of criminal laws is to punish those in society who intentionally commit inherently wrong actions that result in some form of harm to another.”
“Such punishments are a necessary and central ingredient to an orderly and safe society. ”
“If that is the case, can there be any greater responsibility of the civil government than to punish citizens who violate laws designed to protect society’s most vulnerable members…children?”
“In order to determine whether such a law has been violated, the civil government must be notified of the alleged offense.”
“Governments are incapable of carrying out this Biblical mandate if the citizens fail to report the alleged criminal actions.”
“Therefore, Christians impede this biblical mandate when we fail to report suspected crimes against children to the civil government for investigation and possible prosecution of the offenders. ”
– Boz Tchividjian, No More Silence: Rachel Held Evans, An Interview with Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian
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These “pastors” seem to want their churches to be Full-Service Communities. Don’t go to the police; we can handle it. Don’t go to sex therapists; we can handle it. In short, stay away from that heathen outside world; they will only lead you astray. This is cult thinking.
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“I have yet to encounter an abuse situation that was handled “in house” where the consequences were not extremely harmful to the abuse survivor.”
“All too often these issues are handled ‘in house’ in a church-centered attempt to avoid public scrutiny and to bring the matter to a close as quickly as possible so that the church can return to more ‘productive Gospel work’. ”
“The sooner a church can manipulate some form of ‘reconciliation’ between the victim and the perpetrator, the sooner it can forget about this messy situation.”
“Tragically, this rush to reconciliation will often guilt the victim into thinking that the harmful effects of the abuse are a result of his/her own spiritual weaknesses or failures and that a ‘godly response to abuse’ requires the embrace of the offender while minimizing the effects of the abuse.”
“Not surprisingly, this church-centered response leads to devastating consequences in the life of the abuse survivor.”
“Such responses to abuse have nothing to do with the Gospel, and everything to do with placing the institution over the individual.”
– Boz Tchividjian, No More Silence: wRachel Held Evans, An Interview with Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian
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“Tragically, this rush to reconciliation will often guilt the victim into thinking that the harmful effects of the abuse are a result of his/her own spiritual weaknesses or failures and that a ‘godly response to abuse’ requires the embrace of the offender while minimizing the effects of the abuse.”
This is the rotten fruit of almost every spiritual abuse situtation I have encountered, too. What it does help enable evil because the person doing the abusing is often someone who feigns repentence fast. And it only ends hurting others in the long run.
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@ Lisa: I am so sorry. if there is anything we can do to help you, please let us know. If you would like to tell your story, anonymously or otherwise, we would be happy to post it.
I am sorry for the late approval. We have been meeting with another exSGMer and just returned.
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@ Eagle: You are correct. However, the only one who can tell us is Carolyn and she’s not talking except on the Girltalk blog about all sorts of “nice” things.
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Actually the Bible does talk about men and women teaching wrong things about sex within the church.
It’s in Revelation 2 in two places.
One is referred to as the teaching of Balaam:
Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.
The other is referred to as the teaching of Jezebel:
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
Preachers make the mistake of believing that if it is confined to the marriage bed, then it isn’t sexual immorality or fornication.
The Greek word used for sexual immorality can be translated as fornication or pornography.
These men and women are spreading the teachings of Balaam and Jezebel in the church and calling it the gospel. They ought to be shaking in their shoes over this but they are too tempted and tantilized.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202&version=NIV
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@ sad observer: I believe that these accusations will cause other people to come forward. There is a reason that the suit is structured as a class action. I predict this thing is going to get uglier.
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@ Hester:With Driscoll things started to get out of hand.
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Eagle wrote:
Now you know how the Church Ladies and God’s Elect get their porn fix.
“Porn for the Pious — just like Pornography, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
I’ve heard of the term “Salvation by Marriage Alone” used to describe the Christianese obsession with Marriage Uber Alles, but I never figured that could justify these levels of Porn-inspired Kink.
And like in Porn, the woman exists only as a plaything for the Man. A F’able domestic animal who must submit to his every whim, sexual or otherwise. (When I first read about Carolyn’s Gospelly Submission to The Humble One while puking her guts from morning sickness, my first thought was “Just like Porn”.) This not only ties into Porn, but into Male-Supremacist cultures throughout history. All that’s missing is polyg herd-harem behavior, where the Alpha Male gets to take all the females in the herd for his personal harem and spread his DNA at the expense of the permanently-single Betas-to-Omegas. This is not only Rape Culture Porn fantasy, but ANIMAL behavior. ANIMAL.
I’ve been in Furry Fandom since it split off and coalesced into a separate tribal grouping. I’ve been a Brony for two years. I’ve been fascinated with upright talking animals since Rocky & Bullwinkle and Kimba the White Lion. When you’re a thinking man with that sort of interest as far back as you can remember, you think a lot about what separates Man from just another Animal (in Christianese, the Imago Dei unique to Man). When I read Cahill’s Gifts of the Jews, what struck me was that Torah was given to force humans into “Transcending the Animal”, becoming people in the Image of God instead of just another pongoid ape.
And this sort of crap returns Man to the ANIMAL, no matter how many Calvinist Points or Bible Proof Texts or Christianese coats of paint you give it. And associates Return to the Animal with God and Christ.
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Eagle wrote:
No, Eagle. They see it as GODLY. They see it as GOSPELLY GOSPELLY GODLY. They see it as Commanded/Predestined by God from before the Foundation of the World for His Elect (i.e. MEEEEEEE!).
And this doesn’t even have the excuse of a Fertility Cult. They have made God into their Pimp and Pornographer. Like Manichean Gnostics, they can indulge their every sexual kink or obsession and claim God’s Blessing for sin.
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I am coming to see more and more that there appears to be some sort of correlation between a lack of education/training and these sorts of problems in the church. I notice that Loftness has “studied extensively as the master’s degree level.” What does that even mean? You can get an M.A. for around 30 hours, or 10 courses. He can’t have studied that extensively or he’d have actually earned a master’s.
In all honesty, I think a big problem among churches is that pastors have been placed (or have placed themselves) in positions of leadership for which they are not qualified, trained, etc. (I know that we are all aware of how this is particularly the case in the MH/Acts29 movement).
A good starting point for eradicating this sort of tragedy in the church is to hold our leaders to higher standards of education, training, and accountability. Contrary to whatever folk legends circulate out there in our American consciousness, being a good pastor takes more than a Bible and a loud voice. Sure, God can miraculously use ill-equipped people when nothing else is available, but this is not his primary M.O. (Even the disciples – often pointed to as an example of simpletons who became great leaders – spend three years in 24/7 mentorship program with God himself! They were the most trained and equipped leaders in the history of the church!).
I can’t remember who sent me this clip – probably a seminary friend – but it frustrates the heck out me because it so visibly displays the haughty, arrogant, and dismissive attitude the Calvinistas display towards education and training. I think Mark says at one point, “You guys were promised at least a year of training, but after 3 months, we said, ‘Alright! Go out!'”
http://marshill.com/2013/03/22/on-leading-without-face-planting-a-candid-talk-with-our-lead-pastor-residents-part-2
In my family’s experiences with the Calvinistas, so many of the problems that arise in their ministries are things that are addressed during most basic seminary programs (esp. MDiv programs). Why can’t they just humble themselves, acknowledge that they need training, and just submit to a good 3-4 years of in-depth education?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Another two thumbs up agreement.
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I agree that the sexualization of the church is inappropriate. The only time I can see the subject mentioned would be in teaching Song of Solomon. But even there, what one can read is much different from what one can speak about in a public setting.
I continue to be astounded at how the different issues come together and point out an unhealthy (to the point of being abusive at times) trend in churches. Just one whiff and you know something is rotting …
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@ Lisa:
Lisa, please contact Susan Burke, the attorney for the Plaintiffs in the SGM lawsuit, if you haven’t done so already. I know from experience that she’s very approachable and professional.
Please just tell her what happened to you without worrying about what anyone else thinks. This is her website. http://burkepllc.com/attorneys/susan-l-burke/
This is her contact info:
sburke@burkepllc.com or 202.386.9622
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Sue
Thnak you for placing this info here. I think I may put it into a permanent link on our blog. There are mroe people beginning to emerge as these stories are told. I believe that charges against John Loftness are very, very disquieting. Form my perspective, i am am beignning to think that there is something quite dark going on here.
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@ dee: I think a permanent link would be great – and needed.
As for “very dark,” yes.
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@ Mr.H: “Studied extensively” is b.s. – my guess is that he took a handful of courses.
either you study for an advanced degree or you don’t. I’ve never seen anything like “studied extensively” in a real-life CV, resume, etc.
Pingback: Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: When Did “Roles” Become a Primary Doctrinal Issue? | Spiritual Sounding Board
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numo wrote:
I had the same reaction. It is BS pure and simple. but the lack of higher education has become an issue with SGM especially within some of the Reformed movement folks inside the SBC. They hold SGM in some disdain because of the lack of formal higher education with it’s leaders. Seems Loftness is one of the few with any higher ed so they were milking it in the CV.
Lisa wrote:
God Bless you, Lisa. May His mercies be new to you every day. I hope you will consider contacting Susan Burke about your experience.
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“I am coming to see more and more that there appears to be some sort of correlation between a lack of education/training and these sorts of problems in the church.”
Mr H, gotta disagree with you. SBTS/SEBTS has Mahaney, Driscoll, Piper etc in to teach the young men. They are getting MDiv’s and PhD’s and think Mahaney, Driscoll, Piper, etc are wonderful. And there are plenty of other seminaries just as bad.
I would agree with you when it comes to proper education. :o)
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@ dee:
Thanks, Dee. Now that long-time insider Brent Detwiler, has signed off an affidavit backed up by written material published by SGM, proving that SGM, as a corporate entity in MD, controlled the salaries and employment status of all its supposedly independent pastors, the defendants will have a hard time playing the “jurisdiction” (i.e. we were never employed by SGM or beholden to it in any way) card they were counting on as the named SGM Churches are in two different states and this is a unique class action suit.
Their First Amendment argument fell flat too.
As such the defendants and their supporters have a big incentive to intimidate victims and/or discourage people who have knowledge of abuse from coming forward. One tactic is telling folks that if they signed a so-called confidentiality agreement with Biblical Reconciliation groups purporting to mediate cases through an underground pseudo-legal system controlled by SGM, they could be sued for coming forward about the horrible things that happened to them at the behest of this organization.
I ran this issue past Susan Burke and she said to tell anyone that wanted to contact her to just contact her.
I think that’s an important message at this point. If something awful happened to you at an SGM church or you have knowledge of abuse meted out to others in the community, just call Susan. You have nothing to lose and much to gain.
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The subtle manipulation of SGM has been overwhelming. CJ and John Lostness did a good job of commanding obedience in members. It was a subtle power structure that they strove to put in place. Obey the system, if you can figure it out, and you’ll go far, maybe.
I’m not aware of any sexual misconduct though. Except the cover ups. I don’t believe there’s more than the occasional mix up in that area. The darkness is about manipulation of good people’s mindsets. And it did get very dark, in my opinion.
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Virginia Knowles mentioned the sex issues at her non-SGM church. There were sex issues at my former church. What is the common pattern?
Obsession with modesty, obsession with purity, teachings against sexual immorality, extreme focus on sin, little-to-no focus on grace. I think the above is a recipe for disaster.
Now the young adults who have been raised in this environment are dealing with sex issues in a real way and trying to sort through the mess. I feel so bad for them.
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Cognitive Dissidence: “Discerning The Gravity Of The Present Situation?”
“Over 140 legal complaints have been filed (Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit) and more are reportedly coming. Already, this is the largest litigation of this kind against an evangelical organization in our lifetime. And, Challies wants to frame it as ‘disrupting unity’ “? -SpiritualSB
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@ Bridget:
Unless a pastor takes sexyology I, II, III and IV during seminary training, and hangs the framed certificate (with earned grades) behind his desk, one would suppose anything he declares about sexual activity to be lascivious opinion.
On the other hand, if a pastor has obtained said certificate, one would be well-advised to run, not walk, out.
🙂
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Bridget wrote:
I’ll bet they do Bridget. It would be a glorious return to our Biblical right to private property (and that of course includes nigras as property) and free enterprise.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“… When I first read about Carolyn’s Gospelly Submission to The Humble One while puking her guts from morning sickness, my first thought was “Just like Porn”.
Yup, unless sex is shared seeing/exploring/enjoying, (like SofS, since scripture seems to be required for every little thing), it is pornography because The Humble One is all about himself and “the other” is mere object. Inside marriage, it’s also a form of adultery because, in having sex with/for himself, he breaks the vow to keep it with/for his spouse.
There is no mutual consent when one is preoccupied with holding onto the contents of one’s stomach until the sexual act is over. It is hugely abusive, if not veering into rape. Just because a person defers rather than demurs to ahthoritah or powwow-er, doesn’t mean damage to her inner self doesn’t occur. The immense loneliness, all on its own, would make one feel plain hollow.
It is worse than animals, who do not destroy each other for sex–it is like some insects.
As their world turns, my stomach churns. In sympathy.
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Eagle wrote:
If we’re talking Extreme Calvinism, I would expect some resemblance to Islam. Both Calvin and Mohammed put a lot of emphasis on Predestination, and I would expect followers of both to show the side effects and fallout of that.
Also, I have heard Islam described as “an end-stage religion” with a stable rest state that once achieved is very hard to break out of. Nothing prevents another religion or belief system from falling into a similar rest state.
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Patrice wrote:
If you’re talking praying mantises and spiders (arachnids), it’s usually the female who kills and eats the male during mating. In Comp/Patrios it’s the other way around.
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Muff Potter wrote:
That anything like my local newspaper who describes themselves as “Libertarian”, rants about “statism” in Randspeak, praises Ayn Rand as a God, and cites 1840s England as their type example of the Perfect Free-Market Economy(TM)?
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Sue wrote:
This is starting to resemble a cartoon snowball rolling downhill.
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Julie Anne, that was an SGM church, just not Covenant Life. Sorry I wasn’t more clear. There is more I could say now, but I will bite my tongue.
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My current church is a mellow little PCA. Not a whiff of this stuff.
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Dee –
Not trying to change the subject, just wondering if you ever heard back from Jared Moore about his post the other day.
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Original post:
Considering the general sex obsession and all the detailed sex talk with many of these married pastors, (even in church or convention settings, getting right down to mentioning sex toys and specific sexual acts and so forth), I think they need to re-consider the usual stereotype among many conservative Christians that
being married with kids = maturity
and that only unmarried Christians need to hear sexual purity sermons and lectures.
I was waiting until marriage to have sex, I find myself still unmarried at 40+, am still refraining from having sex, and I am not any where near as fixated on sex as some of these preachers are, or think about it as often.
(Would I like to have marry and have sex? Yes. I only toss that information in there for those who think, “You celibates past 35 years of age must have no libido at all!,” (or), “You celibates must have a special gifting where God removes all sexual desire!”
~No, we don’t, not all of us.)
About the pastor guy “bragging” about his wife “serving” him (maybe he meant “servicing”)? Shades of frat boy preacher Mark Driscoll.
That situation sounds less like “sacrificial giving” on the wife’s part and more like absolute selfishness and insensitivity on the husband’s, and that’s nothing to brag about.
If a Christian husband were loving his wife the way Christ loved the church (Christ gave up his very life), that husband would and should, out of compassion and empathy, be able to go without sex for however many days, weeks, or months (yes, I said months) if his wife is having some kind of physical or mental health problems.
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Eagle wrote:
That fits, considering their attitude (and that of many other churches/ denominations) concerning child and spousal abuse, is like this scene from Nielson’s Police Squad show:
Nothing to See Here
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@ Bridget: We communicated back and forth a couple of times. He continue to say that we do not deserve to be on his list of blogs because he does not think we are very nice. He does not believe that I complimented SBC Voices no matter how many times I say it.
His church does not have a website or a telephone.he claims it is just an average church. So, I offered to buy him a phone and some minutes and help him set up a website but he isn’t taking me up on his offer. He has not returned my last email.
Oh yeah, I pointed out how a blog on his “list” probably does not fit his definition of orthodoxy and I think he is avoiding me on the issue.
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Daisy wrote:
LOL! 😀 Very fitting. Nielson was a genius.
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Michelle wrote:
Yeah, as I've mentioned before, there is a double standard as far as some of these things go, especially in the physical appearance department, also when it comes to dating advice given to unmarried Christian men and women. I'm a "visually oriented" woman (I read all the time in Christian material that only men are "visually oriented") who is picky about looks, am not turned on by fat or balding, yet I am expected to date dumpy out- of- shape guys. I seldom hear Christian men (specifically preachers) tell other Christian men to get a gym membership and lose the beer gut or to get hair plugs if they're balding. I'm supposed to remain super fine sexy looking (I do stay in shape, thank you) with sexy long locks, but I'm supposed to look past a man's double chin or spare tire to see his spiritual inner beauty, or overlook the extra weight or missing teeth, because he reads his Bible daily. Just no.
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Sue wrote:
If they do this they are despicable. Well, they are despicable anyway but this makes them doubly so. And if said pseudo-reconciliation group participates in this, I will write about their duplicity until the day I die. And I will make sure that everyone in the evangelical community hears about it. Pontius Pilate comes to mind…
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Eagle wrote:
That’s interesting. I have no doubt it (extreme judgmentalism) happens in some churches, but usually, I hear the total opposite.
I don’t believe people should be beaten down over sexual sin, but…
I’m someone who really believes that sex is for marriage only, so I’m still holding on at 40+ (still not married), and I’ve noticed in many sermons (I watch a lot of Christian television, and every so often I’ve been to churches in person), that the attitude is usually, “Every one will have sex outside of marriage, so it’s okay if you do it too. God will forgive it.”
Sexual sin is passed off as being a trivial thing in most sermons I’ve come across.
It makes me wonder why I should bother remaining chaste if having sex before marriage is basically seen as the norm, as acceptable, etc., by most preachers and by most Christians.
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Virginia Knowles wrote:
Thank you for that link. I’ll have to look at that later.
Someone here posted titles to books about sexual abuse the other day, one is by an author who I think is a Non Christian, who is a psychologist or something.
She has studied sex offenders for years and how the mental health community has viewed sexual abuse.
I was appalled to learn from her books that even in the secular community, victims were often blamed for being abused!
She said the new trend in the 1980s was for therapists to not blame the victim so much but to blame the whole family or to blame just the mother, but never the abuser him- or her- self.
It’s mind boggling to me that the people who commit these crimes are not held accountable, but the people (usually female) around them are.
Either her book or another one someone here linked to said that most child molestors are frequently married men, that the number of never- married molestors is much lower.
That lady’s book also has quotes from molestors who were caught, who she interviewed in prison, who said they love using churches as places to get victims, because most religious people are too trusting and naive.
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Eagle wrote:
I wondered that too.
I was on a secular site where people of all backgrounds were arguing about a 16 year old girl who wrote in to say she was making out with an older guy (I don’t remember the guy’s exact age, it was either 18 or 20).
She said she explicitly told the guy from the start, “just kissing, some touching but no sex (no intercourse).”
They wound up having sex. She said he made the moves on her, but she was too afraid to speak up, fight back, say “no.” She wanted to know if that was rape or not.
As far as I’m concerned, she was raped. She clearly told the guy ‘no sex’ from the start. Just because she was too naive, afraid, or whatever to blurt out “no” during the act doesn’t mean she wanted it, asked for it, or was to blame.
I was disturbed to see most of the people leaving comments say no, it wasn’t rape, she was to blame, etc.
I don’t think people understand rape doesn’t always have to involve physical force.
A lot of perverts use guilt, trickery, threats, etc, to get sex from a person (this was also a point brought out by the author I mentioned in a post above who has studied rapist and child sex abusers for 20 – 30 years now. She said a lot of adults who prey on kids use bribery, guilt trips, or “I’ll kill your Mom” as means of getting sex).
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I think I’ve written about my personal experience with SGM marriage conferences before, but can’t remember where, so forgive me if I’m being redundant. I went to three SGM marriage retreats, but they were for ‘peripheral’ churches, not the flagship guys. None of the bigwigs spoke. At one, Mickey was the main speaker, but he was just a normal, run-of-the-mill pastor at the time.
Not one SGM/PDI person there said anything gross, or sexually instructive, or mentioned toys, or the mechanics of sexual intimacy. The sessions were about communication, honesty, stuff like that. Nothing that registered on my ‘bad taste’ meter was said. However, at the marriage retreat in 1998, we were told to go back to our rooms and discuss things — and specifically instructed not to watch the Olympic ice-skating final in which Tara Lipinski won over Michelle Kwan. The next morning, several couples freely admitted that we watched it –I guess we’d gotten watered-down servings of koolaid. Others admitted that they had wanted to watch, but followed directions. I thought the instructions NOT to watch were ridiculous and out-of-line.
At least two retreats were in the same hotel, so I can’t remember which one was which. But at one –I think this one was not the Olympic year, probably circa 1995 or 1996 because the people leading were obvious charismatics — a couple from Australia or New Zealand led the retreat. Cannot remember their names. During the last session, as the wife stood there staring with rapt attention at the husband’s face, he explained that he had previously committed adultery with a woman in their former church — their marriage had been restored. I’m still not sure how I feel about that session — whether it was TMI, or if it was honesty that encouraged people that God can redeem bad situations. In that last session, he encouraged questions. He said the most common question he was asked in marriage conferences was “Is oral sex okay?” to which he answered something to the effect of ‘I am not a sex therapist, so I’m not qualified to answer how you should conduct your sex life.’ And that’s about as graphic as it got. We never heard tell of this guy and his wife ever again. I think they were probably too charismatic for the new regime. Before hearing about the sex-toy talks, I had thought they might have been somehow too graphic.
In thinking of all this, it seems to me that the ‘underling’ pastors had a sense of decorum about what should and should not be said in a public Christian forum. In the bigwig-run marriage conferences, once the bigwigs lifted the lid off good taste, it signaled to everyone else that they could and should get graphic and personal.
In non-SGM marriage conferences we’d attended, the only statement about specific bedroom activity was basically ‘whatever is desirable to both consenting married adults is fine.’ ‘Nuff said. That pretty much covered it.
After the 1998 marriage conference, I refused to go to any others. We’d rather spend the time and money just going off by ourselves or with good friends to a fun place — normal restorative activities. Sitting in a straight-backed chair listening to some guy talk about things we already knew wasn’t much of a retreat.
I remember only a few specifics about those retreats. Once, the heat was on non-stop in our hotel room, sending the thermometer to 92 degrees all night. Yeah, that was one sizzlin’ night for sure. We always had huge fights on marriage retreat weekends, because one of us really didn’t want to go, and the other (guess who?) insisted that we should go because it was the spiritual thing to do. What I will remember forever was watching Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan skate their hearts out. There wasn’t enough koolaid in the world to make me not watch that. Guess I flunked Marriage Retreat 101.
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@ Patrice:
That made laugh – thanks! 😀
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy, all humans are visually-oriented.
All PRIMATES are visually-oriented.
Sight is our primary sense.
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@ dee:
Very strange set up for a church. I wonder what reason he had for doing the post to begin with.
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@ Eagle:
“This is no different than pornograghy. The difference is that many people who deal with porn know its a problem and will be open about it.”
Thankfully I’ve never viewed porn. Are there really that many correlations with what these guys are advocating? People keep saying that and I don’t want to believe it but…
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@ Daisy: These guys might have adult bodies, but their emotional maturity is just about nil.
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@ Hester: Yes.
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@ Hester: In Driscoll’s case, especially so, but he’s not the only one.
the sheer crass/rude way he says things is, to me, really sickening. And I know for a fact that there are sexual abuse survivors who’ve been *very* badly affected by the things he says about sex and specific sexual acts.
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Nickname wrote:
Nickname, you made me immediately think of something C.S. Lewis wrote aboout in The Screwtape Letters. The old devil Screwtape admonishes his nephew Wormwood for allowing his “target” (the soul he is trying to win) to experience some mundane activity that he truly enjoys for its own sake:
“I would make it a rule to eradicate from my patient any strong personal taste … even if it is something quite trivial such as a fondness for county cricket or collecting stamps or drinking cocoa … there is a sort of innocence and humility and self-forgetfulness about them which I distrust.”
Lewis goes on to make clear that – of course – Christians must resist many of their natural inclinations. But his point is that it’s dangerous to repress our God-given individual traits in order to win the approval of others, especially in a social setting where there’s pressure to simply go along with the group. These church cultures that put such enormous pressure on people to obey and follow — no matter what happens — are really saying it’s a sin to think for yourself. And although the intentions may not always be bad to begin with, that kind of conformist, authoritarian culture can clearly lead to serious moral dilemmas — and outright horrors in the worst cases.
So I like your rebellious watching of figure skating. 🙂 It may be a small thing, but that ability to say “That’s stupid, and I’m not doing it” can be a real saving grace. Certainly it’s healthier than “I will do what they say, no matter what…”
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@ Bridget:Furtick has been on the receiving end of some questions about his questionable theology. He doesn’t like it.
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@ dee:
We were talking about Jared Moore on this thread 🙂
Furtick (and his insanity) is on the other thread. Sorry if I confused you 😉
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Regarding the email Kris received in this post:
Imagine Muff driving through the high desert with a T-1000 model cyborg. You know, the ones that are living tissue over a titanium endo-skeleton? Imagine also that said robot looks a lot like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Muff asks if the T-1000 can pull up TWW’s latest post, which he does:
T-1000: I have detailed files
Muff is dumbfounded when the T-1000 expounds on the bit about the sex toys at the SGM marriage retreat:
Muff: Are you $h&ttin’ me??
T-1000: No, I am not $h&ttin' on you.
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Bridget
I am always confused and it is no one’s fault but mine.
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@ Bridget: Now for the correct answer. Why does a church not have a website or a phone? Few members? Poor? I offered to send him a phone and fund raise to pay the bills for one but he is not returning my email. He could even put a separate page on his blog for a church communications page.
As for the post, who knows. He sure got some attention from me. He kept hammering me that Tim Challies and the others do not know who he is. I told him that they do now!!!
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@ Eagle:
That is exactly why I left. After awhile, I saw alot of passion in CJ’s delivery, but also realized how little depth and background CJ’s sermons had. He quoted other people alot, but it didn’t seem to me he was doing his own exegesis and research. . .
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To me his lack of educational background was and is glaring. . . @ elizabeth ann seton:
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Mr. H, MH may have taken a shot at starting its own seminary program back in 2009. Some stuff that Wenatchee The Hatchet plans to get to writing about some time later this year since the graduates of that one-time Masters in Missional Leadership program seem to have graduated and started going out into the job market.
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@ dee:
Not to worry. Many years have passed and all has been resolved. I can’t imagine who I would not be if it had not been for that experience. It just took me aback to see myself in that situation now knowing that JL wasn’t just a purveyor of bad theology…that he may have been an actual abuser of children himself at the time he was “counseling” me.
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Eagle wrote:
Oh dear.. now I’m going to have to watch all of the Naked Gun movies. I have no doubt I will laugh just as heartily as I did the last time I watched them, probably going on 8 years ago now… some movies never get old! 😀
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Hester wrote:
I’m guessing it’s because they want to appear hip and relevant.
My feeling is that some Christians are not happy that they are perceived by some in the secular culture as being prudes, nerdy, or unhip. I guess they think if they preach and talk about sex a lot, they will come across as cool to teens and to secular culture.
I think some preachers have this misplaced notion that if they preach on married sex and how great it is, maybe it will prevent or cut down on premarital sex, divorce, porn addiction, unplanned pregnancies etc.?
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
It seems to me that many males, particularly Christian ones (pastors above all), believe that only men enjoy or want sex.
Maybe most men do want sex more often than most women, but – this doesn’t mean all women hate it, or don’t want it, or don’t experience desire.
Male Christian pastors and leaders are shocked whenever they find out that plenty of women do indeed have sex, want sex, enjoy it, or are addicted to sex sites and movies. Example:
Women Watch “Pornogracy [sic]?” Pat Robertson Creepiest Moment Ever
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@ Mr.H: I'm not disputing your information, I'm only mentioning again that my personal experience with Calvinists – the hyper and garden variety – has been different.
Most of the ones I ran into online in the past ten years or more have been intellectual snobs who place a lot of stock in education and being brainy.
They think the only people qualified to critique Calvinism (or opine about theology at all) are people who can read koine Greek, ancient Hebrew, who went to seminary, etc. Anyone else who doesn't have multiple college degrees and have an IQ of 250 is looked down upon. Maybe the YRR guys are different from this.
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@ Searching and Eagle:
Since you guys posted that, here’s this:
Bathroom scene from Austin Powers movie
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lilyrosemary wrote:
Thanks. I am glad to say this was not the only time we didn’t follow the rules. We must’ve been viewed as radically rebellious and prideful. And I am proud (not prideful) of it!
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@ Hester: Yes Hester, I'm afraid so. I also believe that just as people in the Old Testament days were set aflame by their passion inflaming images that God so hated, that is what our pornography is today and that is what has inspired these pastors and laymen, no pun intended. I believe that they are still addicted to the pornography that they have viewed rather than addicted to their wives as they piously and hypocritically claim. They might not need to actually view a video anymore as long as they can dupe their wives into being their very own private porn stars. If they are convincing them to role play, even worse. If they don't repent and turn from this, the addiction will get worse just like viewing the videos and taking drugs, it takes more to get the same 'high!' Wives? Just say NO
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@ elizabeth ann seton:I have seen this ridiculous reporting of supposed extensive studies towards some sort of degree not only with another at SGM but all over the place. If they were so into it, they would have finished their degree. Its called long distance learning.
Also there are a bunch of guys running around evangelicalism being address as “Dr” who only have honorary degrees and that is plain embarrassing. Heck even Dorothy Patterson did a long distance PhD from the U of South Africa.
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Eagle
I still like this old, old saying that Christianity is one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. We all struggle and will do so until we die. The glory is in the struggle-the willingness to keep on even we we fall down. And we find friends along the way to stumble along with us.
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Eagle
We all must discern. But the key is knowing our bias when we do discern. The most fascinating comment, IMO. in the Tim Challies stream at his site came from one person who asked about “good” discerning blogs. They mentioned Team Pyro. Challies said that was “good” blog. In that answer he gave up his entire argument and didn’t see it. He is as deceived as he thinks we are. His motives are as mixed as everybody else. The wise man admits it.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“If you’re talking praying mantises and spiders (arachnids), it’s usually the female who kills and eats the male during mating. In Comp/Patrios it’s the other way around.”
Yah, I was thinking in general terms, wherein one half of the sexual union destroys the other. And it would have to be female over male or nix on propagation.
It seems to me that animal sexuality functions more like eating does—-intimacy not involved, therefore no issues such as whims and submission. These “Christianese” men are “just rutting” but since human sexuality is entwined with intimacy, “just rutting” will always be a destruction of the act, labeled “narcissism” and/or “power-over” (causing abuse, porn, lust, rape, etc.).
I guess I’m saying that animal sex is as it is meant to be and when humans “act like animals”, they act worse than animals. They do evil.
This is likely little different from what you wrote.
I take your point about the animal who wins the right to impregnate all the females in his herd. It keeps the group maximized for physical-strength survival and doesn’t allow them to develop differently.
The underlying question of what makes humans different from the rest of created life is fascinating.
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Daisy wrote:
Hehehe!! 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmJKY59NX8o
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@ dee:
I had to quit reading Pyro because, well, they are just so mean to people.
“He is as deceived as he thinks we are. His motives are as mixed as everybody else. The wise man admits it.”
I posted a bunch of quotes from this interview with Challies from 2011 just now at survivors, so I won’t do it here but it is interesting to see how his mind thinks:
http://www.challies.com/interviews/the-code-in-the-christian-blogosphere
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@ Dee~
“His motives are as mixed as everybody else. The wise man admits it.”
Challies can wisely admit his motives are mixed. He can know if he critiques, he lo$e$ big time. He can humbly admit all his sin sniffing mixed motive faults on blog article after blog article so all can marvel at his humble transparency.
The question is…what will he do about the mixed motives?
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Dee & Diane on Pyro-blog:
These guys (at Pyro) would probably be much happier in Calvin’s Geneva or Cromwell’s England. They should get in contact with Mr. Peabody and see if he’ll loan them his way-back machine.
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@ Muff Potter:Wouldn’t they all be happier back then. Uncontested power, how long before we’d be dead. Burned alive with green wood.
Eagle, I’m going to try out those naked gun movies. I’ve never seen them. I think I was busy with my seven kids at the time;-(.
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dee wrote:
Dee, that is beautiful. This is why I come here. It seems like sometimes Christians seem to think we have to act like we have all the answers, to the extent that I sometimes feel like I need to repress all doubt and deny any struggle I’m having. But holding fast to truth and keeping the faith should not be about repression and denial — right? I think it means something might be amiss.
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Patrice wrote:
The irony is rich also in that the Almighty was not interested in the best and most powerful sperm donor as a means to bring himself into the world as Messiah. One could argue speculatively that the long genealogies in Holy Writ were carefully pursued in order to retrieve the least damaged ovum from the fall.
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lilyrosemary wrote:
And abusive churches often require you to repress more and more and more of your “Flesh” to be “Godly” or “Gospelly”, until almost everything is Forbidden and that which is not Forbidden is Absolutely Compulsory.
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Eagle wrote:
I heard that quote of Reichsminister Goebbels as “Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.” And kept seeing parallels with Altar Call Tract Witnessing, where 66+ books and 2000 years of spiritual tradition are condensed to a few chapter-and-verse sound bites repeated over and over and over.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Yeah. Never mind Augustine’s idea that “Original Sin” transmits through the male line, think of the “What If?” What if He DID use the Best and Most Powerful Sperm Donor? Christ with puka-shell necklace, kewpie fauxhawk, and Mickey Mouse T-shirt… Where’s the brain bleach?????
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Eagle wrote:
I have a copy of the 1943 OSS psych profile on A.H. Several independent eyewitnesses were cited as describing the Nuremberg Rallies as “revival meetings”.
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Eagle wrote:
JMJ/Christian Monist often says the same thing in his blog.
Appropriate b/g music for this phenomenon:
“Veterans of the Psychic Wars” by Blue Oyster Cult
“We’re All Stars in the Dope Show” by Marilyn Manson
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@ Eagle:
The thought control you mentioned is exactly what is happening today. I am seeing it over and over with my former classmates who are now incapable of original thoughts. All they can do is quote Mohler, Piper and Mahaney. This is not what we were taught at our secular (gasp!) university. Every single professor I had told me “I do not care what you believe, I just care that you can defend it in an appropriate manner with appropriate references and that you are open to critique.”
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@ Nickname:
Did they give a reason why all of you should not watch the Olympic ice-skating final? This is weird.
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numo wrote:
Listen to the late-period Baby Boomer:
There are a LOT of permanent six-year-olds running around in sexually-active adult bodies.
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Mandy wrote:
EES PARTY LINE, COMRADE…
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Michelle wrote:
1) Attractive as “HAWT HAWT HAWT”?
2) Attentive as “She hangs on his every word, praising him with trembling lips”?
3) Available as in “She spreads her legs every time he snaps his fingers”?
Because that’s straight out of porn fantasy, and in Furry Fandom I’ve been exposed to a LOT of porn — I know the patterns.
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Michelle,
I thought the 3A’s were batteries for the vibrater.
My bad.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“He who wants to persuade should put his trust not in the right argument, but in the right word. The power of sound has always been greater than the power of sense.”
—Joseph Conrad, Lord Jim
Right Words—
KnottyHawty: A awkward doctrine explaining Eve who God ordained to fail in Eden because she could then produce more children for the church which is elsewhere described as his body.
Knottyhawty toddy: A simmered kool-aid blend that people drink before applying above doctrine.
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@ Muff Potter:
“One could argue speculatively that the long genealogies in Holy Writ were carefully pursued in order to retrieve the least damaged ovum from the fall.”
Speculatively more complex, at any rate, what with Rahab, David et al. Handsomeness, sexual prowess not priorities.
HUG, after you find it, would you pass the brain bleach this way? Kewpie fauxhawk does me in.
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“No one understood better than Stalin that the true object of propaganda is neither to convince nor even to persuade, but to produce a uniform pattern of public utterance in which the first trace of unorthodox thought immediately reveals itself as a jarring dissonance.” (Alan Bullock, Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives)
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Patrice wrote:
Heavily spiked with Everclear and Lysergic Acid.
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Patrice wrote:
“I try to make everyone’s day a bit more surreal.” — Calvin & Hobbes
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Good one since good looks are only required of men, some of us women would need to trip on acid to be willing to shag. rolling my eyes.
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honestly, deb, women not men.
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SGM Detox is on: Thriving Outside the System http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vincecoakley
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amen eagle!!!!!!!!!@ Eagle:
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Mandy wrote:
In 1984, G.Orwell coined the term “duckspeak” for this phenomenon — reciting the Party Line (“goodthink”) without engaging a single neuron above the brainstem. All stimulus/response.
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Daisy wrote:
“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— G.K.Chesterton, in one of the Father Brown Mysteries
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I found your website while searching for info on CJ Mahaney. Our pastor is beginning a reading class – read a book – meet -discuss what you think….
Book to jump start this endeavour: Humility by CJ Mahaney. After researching, which I do faithfully as a Berean on almost everything, I am wondering – what is the pastor thinking.??.
Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
Also, I do not do Facebook or Twitter so this venue works best for me. thx