Generations Church and Greg Kelley’s Christian Supporters: Another Christian’s View

“I should meet many people who do not know anyone personally who has been raped or molested as a child. But I can't remember seeing a newspaper without a rape or molestation charge in it somewhere, and when I ask groups how many people know someone personally with a history of molestation, almost always, every hand in the room goes up.” ― Anna Salter, Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, And Other Sex Offenders link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HK_Central_Statue_Square_Legislative_Council_Building_n_Themis_s.jpgThemis

Update 8/21/14 2:15 PM

It appears that this post and your comments may have had an effect on the Brydon family. This was posted this morning. Let us pray that their will be a continued softening of the rhetoric.

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Pedophilia is one of the most devastating crimes that can be committed. Its effects last a lifetime. Just this week we received an email from a man who still remembers his molestation at the hands of his pastor at the age of 9.

It is done in the dark, without the advantage of witnesses. The pedophile is often outgoing and charming. S(he) pretends to have a love for children and can even profess a deep religious faith. When s(he) is finally caught, his friends are incredulous. He was a pillar of the community. He may have been a beloved coach who is revered in college athletics who ran charities to help the disadvantaged. The pedophile can be married and have children who adore him because he is adept at hiding his perversity. Think Jerry Sandusky.

The common reaction to an arrest is usually shock and disbelief. "He was the best neighbor." "She was an awesome teacher who gave extra time to helping her students achieve." Deep down inside, some cannot imagine how they could have missed the signs. 

Here is a brief history of the events in the current Greg Kelley conviction.

*Trigger Warning: Graphic History

A little boy allegedly told his mom that Greg put "pee pee in his mouth." The mother reported this to the police who investigated. Kelley, a recently graduated high school football player, was tried and convicted of the offense and sentenced to 25 years in jail. He rejected a pretrial plea agreement which would have given him probation and listing on the sex offender list for life. After his trial, he agreed to waive his right to appeal and accepted a 25 year sentence, avoiding a possible 40 year sentence. He had to sign an agreement that stated he was guilty of the crime. Here is one link to the case and a second.

Here is a link that may surprise you. This descriptor by a child is common.

This blog has consistently emphasized our concerns with pedophilia and the church. So, for some time, except for this letter to the little superhero, we have been content to let justice takes its course in this situation since it did not seem to involve the church. However, it has become apparent that some of the people leading the effort to exonerate Greg Kelley are involved in the evangelical church. Also, a lead pastor in Generations Church appears to be part of the effort to exonerate Kelley. That church has been the site of "Freedom Fest" in support of Kelley. Perhaps this church is not aware of the number of churches in the US which have been involved in covering up for pedophiles or they may have been reticent to use the church for an event to raise money for a convicted pedophile.

Before I begin, let me state a few things.

  • I have no problem with a group of people who believe, and wish to prove, that their convicted friend is innocent. We admire groups such as The Innocence Project  which are dedicated to exonerating wrongly convicted individuals. Proving the innocence of the convicted is a noble endeavor.
  • However, I also admire those who have fought long and hard to get churches and courts to understand the pervasiveness of pedophilia in the church. This blog started after your hosts watched such a scenario play out in a local church. We admire and support the work of Billy Graham's grandson, Boz Tchividjian and his organization called GRACE as well as SNAP which are to be commended for their staunch advocacy for the conviction of pedophile pastors and priests.
  • I equally respect those who accept the verdict of guilty in the Greg Kelley trial. I am one of those. I usually believe claims of child sex abuse when brought by children (yes-I know of the McMartin case, et al). I am also a believer in the jury system, as imperfect. as it is. That does not mean that I am right.  Once again, pedophilia is a deed performed in the darkness and only God fully knows what has occurred.
  • When I became aware of the group that was supporting Greg Kelley, I was concerned that there could be a fair number of underage teens who were tweeting and representing the community. I advised the group, via some tweets, that they should password protect themselves and to be cautious with whom they interact on Twitter. Two days ago, due to the content of the Tweets, I was convinced I was dealing with junior high school aged children. However, I have since been informed that the some of the people, such as Megan Brydon and Jake Brydon, who have been tweeting, are adults and continued to interact with them.

Once again, the TWW readership can see that my first and foremost concern in all of this is the protection of children.

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This post will not be a retrial of the Greg Kelley conviction. I leave that in the hands of the folks at #FightForGK and the prosecutors. I will be closely watching comments to make sure that the conversation does not head in that direction.

Instead, I want to examine the process which the avowed *Christians* are using in their fight to exonerate Kelley. I will do this via screen shot of tweets and emails that have been posted online. The #FightForGK folks are claiming they are being "slandered." I tweeted the link to a post that I wrote on slander, etc. but received no response from the few people that I have identified as adults. I also offered, on two occasions, to post any evidence of *slander* and except for one example, which I will post, they offered me nothing else. A tweet, written by an individual that I do not know nor do I know their religious beliefs, appeared to accuse the church pastor of posting this outside the church. The church did not do so.

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I would also like to point out that Megan Brydon Meagan Agnew (Update ed. note 8/21) apologized for calling some folks "moron" in another tweet.

My concerns

Years ago, I went to a pastor to help me deal with an issue in my life. He said something that I recall on an almost daily basis. 

God is more interested in the process you take to get to the end result.

Here is my chief concern.

Some of the folks in this disagreement seem to not only disregard those who support Greg Kelley's conviction but also appear to accuse them of being liars and of "adding to the scars on Jesus' back."

This post is directed to the adult Christians in this fight. I did speak with Pastor Brydon on 7/28 and believe I understand his concerns.

1. It is perfectly reasonable for people to accept a jury's verdict of guilty in a pedophile case. 

2. Calling a 4 year old victim a liar is wrong. In fact, statistics indicate that child victims rarely lie regarding such assaults.

3. Amy Smith, besides being a representative of SNAP and an expert on pedophilia in the church, is a Christian. #FightForGK may choose not to listen to her but they cannot deny her expertise and her faith. She has sacrificed much to bring pedophiles and those who protect them to justice.

4. If anyone knows who the "real perp" is, then report it. It is your moral and spiritual duty to do so.

Pastor Brydon told me that he believes Greg Kelly is innocent. He also told me that if Greg Kelley is found innocent, they will have the real molester in jail in 30 days. I would hope that Pastor Brydon would report his suspicions immediately to the police.

5. Telling half a truth is a lie.

Some claim that the police never interrogated Kelley without mentioning that Kelley refused to be interrogated by the police which was his legal right. 

6. Some have made the Leander community, albeit unintentionally, seem like the worst place in the world to live.

Some claim that the police force, the DA, the jurors, etc. are deceitful. Why would anyone move there? The jails must be full of innocent people. I said as much to Pastor Brydon when we spoke. I have never heard a pastor speak in such a fashion regarding his chosen community. Who would choose to raise a child in Leander? Can one imagine the bullying that could go on in the schools if one is not a *star* football player? 

7. When a church takes sides, it can have a chilling effect on the willingness of victims to testify. It is hard enough to speak about this unspeakable crime. Imagine how this little boy will feel about churches as he grows up. A church took a stand against him.

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The church supposedly had people wear teal ribbons to show support for the victim during their GK festival. However, that got lost in the taped mouths and orange T-shirts. I asked the pastor when he would hold a similar rally for the little boy but he did not answer me. 

9. The name of Jesus is being "used in vain"  by Christians. 

Perhaps this has upset me the most. I want you to carefully read who was the intended target of the next tweet by a member of the Brydon family. Watchkeep is the Twitter handle of Amy Smith who has done so much in standing up for the victims of pedophilia in the church.

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I want to keep on this subject because it is vital to an understanding of how Christians can misuse the name of Jesus. I am going to make an assumption that anyone who uses the name of Christ and expresses a belief in Satan would consider themselves a Christian.

The following email was written by Dustin Brimberry who, until a couple of days ago, claimed he worked for Dell. Now, apparently, he is living in a Turkish romance drama. The reason I mention his place of employment is to help our readers to see that this is not an uneducated man.

Please see what he sent  to Amy Smith in an email. When she asked him to not send further emails, he did not comply. I ask our regular readers to employ your "discernment skills" as you read this letter.

M. Dustin Brimberry <mdbrimberry@confluentinc.com>

10:43 AM

to me

Amy,
Let me start off by saying that I 100% support the victims that have been molested (and I believe they probably were), that is not in question.  I would never support a predator, I have the facts on my side and we need to catch the actual person that did this, the longer we wait, the more likely that person is to strike again because Greg Kelley is not some monster and he did not do this!  Do your research, the police destroyed communication between themselves and CPS, which the judge partially blocked at trial. 

Greg is also a victim of a corrupt and evil DA, and police department.  Do you really think a church would support Greg if he did this?  NO.  The pastor of the church was not even taking sides in the matter until he saw the real facts of the case with his own eyes.  As soon as he was presented with the facts that were suppressed at trial, he quickly got on board because he saw the injustice of this whole thing.

I am extremely disappointed in your recent comments regarding the Greg Kelley case.  I know that you probably published the letter from the Cedar Park Chief of Police to be used to try and smear the #FightforGK movement that is quickly gaining momentum, but that is about to backfire on you.

I love how enemies of the true and living God (though they pretend they are not), play right into his hands when they partner with satan.  God loves to mock and ridicule satan, satan is always so arrogant that he always overplays his hand.  That is exactly what our and all the others who clearly have no understanding of the GK case and have continued to falsely accuse an innocent young man.  Your day along with all those others who have been on the side of injustice and corruption by the law enforcement (what a joke) of Williamson County have a day of reckoning coming very soon.  God is about to rub all your faces in your lies because the truth is about to explode on the scene and it is Greg Kelley, his supporters and his family that are about to have the last laugh. 

There is a movement building in Williamson County and the elected officials in Wilco are about to find out what happens to those in office that abuse their power and authority.  We have built huge support and registered several hundred voters during our rallies.  Once we secure a new trial for GK, we will be putting together strategic campaign to remove all those corrupt individuals that we elected in Wilco.  I am really not sure why you choose to take the wrong side, but your eyes along with many other eyes around this injustice are about to be opened wide. 

He is 100% innocent, he was never alone with the child, there are so many facts in question.  You should do yourself a favor and help us free GK so focus can be placed on catching the real predator.  If that person is not stopped he will strike again and we must not allow anymore victims.

The truth will COME OUT!  Those in our legal system will be held accountable and we will do everything in our power to make sure that all parties that supported this injustice are given their pink slips by the voters of Wilco.  Jana Duty and made promises to clean up the corruption in the Wilco DA office, and has done the same thing the previous DA did.  It is certainly true that power corrupts.  I supported her during her original election because deep down I had hoped she would do what she said.  Instead she is continuing to persecute the innocent with her draconian tactics.  Greg and the kid with the pot brownies are the ones unjustly treated.  Once we elect a new DA that can be trusted, I hope that a full investigation is done into Ms. Duty and her band of misfits, and that myself, Brunner and the other ADA clowns all spend some time behind bars for their illegal and unjust politics.

I really think you should educate yourself on the facts of this case, and stop believing the lies that have, at least for now ruined an innocent man’s future.   Open your eyes, stop the bias, and you will only come to one conclusion, Greg Kelley DID NOT commit this crime, someone else did.
Sincerely,

Dustin Brimberry


UPDATE 8/18/14: 

I (Amy) replied last night to the above email from Dustin Brimberry saying, "Please do not contact me again." 


(He did)

What you can't handle the truth?

You can rant on and on your campaigns, but when someone stands up to you you whine and say "don't contact me, I can't handle someone calling me out.

I will challenge you and anyone else who lies about Greg Kelley.  We want justice for the child too, and I would think you would want to ensure that the correct person by caught, or they will do it again.

Just you watch that judge will grant a new trial and Greg will be acquited (sic) and

I want you to see what this man who claims to be a Christian says about Amy, who happens to disagree with him about Greg Kelley. 

  • Hater
  • Bias
  • A Partner with Satan
  • God will rub your face in your lie
  • Enemy of the true and living God
  • Lies

Two further observations.

1. Brimberry says the "real" molester must be caught or he will do it again. From what I am able to determine, no further molestations have been reported since the arrest of Kelley. That is awkward.
2 .There is an assumption that a pastor is infallible. If he says it must be true, then it is true. I think Brimberry needs to read our blog.

Christians need to model for the world how they handle conflict. So far, this one is not going very well. Perhaps there is time to reverse course?


Here is a letter written by the Police Chief of Cedar Park whose department apparently covers the town of Leander. This was published on Amy's Watchkeep blog as well. Please note the words "cultlike" and "lawyered up." Also note that Kelley claimed to be a Marine. He wasn't. Note also that the chief says people involved in this fight are, for the most part, very good people. I wonder if the *Christians* might return the favor? (Formatted for easier reading. No words have been changed. Bold added by editor.)
 

Cedar Park Police Chief on the Greg Kelley Case

I am posting with permission of the Cedar Park, Texas Chief of Police Sean Mannix, his statement on the Greg Kelley child sexual assault case emailed on July 30, 2014 to his police department, a matter of public record.

All,

As you are all aware, on July 15, 2014, Greg Kelley was convicted of two counts of Super Aggravated Sexual Assault of a small child and sentenced to 25 years in prison with no eligibility for parole or appeal, through a plea agreement.  In most cases the next step would be a quiet departure to a state prison with little fanfare.  Not in this case. 

I know that you are all in tune with the fact that Mr. Kelley has garnered much support from his old classmates and others and a movement was established called “Fight for GK”.  This group has been very vocal in their support of Mr. Kelley and very critical of the police department and the DA’s office. 

The Fight for GK movement has taken on a cult-like appearance, as it is mostly high school kids that have only been exposed to the news reports and what fellow supporters have told them, with no interest in seeking the truth.  This movement, in my opinion, has been fueled by what I can only characterize as some of the most biased news coverage of a trial that I have ever encountered in three decades of doing this work.

  In this case there was tremendous coverage of the defense case and Mr. Kelley’s support group and very little coverage of the substance of the trial itself.  I have not been able to figure out if the bias was intended or just lazy reporting.

You all saw Detective Dailey take a beating by the Defense with no coverage of his testimony to the Prosecution.  A picture was painted that he did something improper by entering the interview room and asking the child to tell them what the child had told his mother.  This was irregular, but not improper.  In a perfect world the child would have been subject to a deep forensic interview, but at the time the CAC had lost their only staff member qualified for such interviews.  We have a luxury of having a child advocacy center available to us.

  Many investigators around the country do not have access to these resources and are forced to do the child interviews themselves.  While that is not ideal, it is anything but improper.

I have been asked by many of you, why we have not taken a more public stance on setting the record straight while this cult-like group drones on. 

It is as simple as this; we are in the business of keeping our community safe, enforcing the law, and developing prosecutable criminal investigations.  We did all three of those things resulting in a solid conviction, so we move on to safeguarding the next potential victims of crime instead of entering the tent of the circus they are trying to create.  We do not spike the ball and do a victory dance every time we get a conviction on a violent criminal and we will not start now.  In fact, I find this case to be particularly sad because so much of it could have been avoided if Mr. Kelley had the character to do the right thing on several occasions.

.Pedophilia like alcoholism is a disease.  It is not having a desire for young children that got Mr. Kelley into trouble, it was acting on that desire.  Mr. Kelley let his demons get the better of him and has signaled that he has no desire to treat the disease, as the first step is recognition and personal accountability.  Instead he chooses to claim innocence, con his friend and family,  and blame the system and others for his actions.

The Fight for GK movement is largely based on the following position that is posted on their web-site.  “The problem is, he was convicted based solely on the testimony of a 4 year old boy. Not to discredit the words of a 4 year old, but no other supporting evidence was given. Kelley was never interrogated by the police, no other suspects were sought out, and the police department kept their investigation focused only on Kelley without admitting there could be other explanations… We believe he was wrongly charged, by not allowing more evidence in support of Kelley's innocence to be brought forward.”

As you may be aware, Kelley was not interviewed because he exercised his constitutional protection against self-incrimination by invoking his right to remain silent through his attorney, Patricia Cummings.  In other words, he lawyered up. At that point we are not allowed to interview a suspect. 

You don’t get it both ways, refuse to give a statement and then whine that the police did not get your side of a story.  He did get to tell his story on the stand and was caught lying to the court, about a lie of stolen honor when he told somebody he was a Marine Sniper returning from Afghanistan.  As an old Marine I am disgusted with this lack of honor.  No evidence of Kelley’s innocence has ever been brought forward by him or his defense team, other than claiming innocence. 

No other suspects were sought and the investigation stayed focused on Kelley because that is how a proper investigation is conducted in all cases in which the perpetrator is known to the victim and positively named and identified as the assailant.  When a small child makes an honest outcry that somebody molested them and named their known attacker it would be gross incompetence to try to take them down a different path. 

The Kelley supporters have evolved from an earlier position that the kids made up their stories, to a more modified explanation that one of them was likely exposed to sexual abuse at the hands of another.  This is very twisted logic to believe that a child is intellectually developed enough to articulate the most horrific thing they have been the victim of, but not intellectually developed enough to recognize the known perpetrator that they are exposed to daily.  Never in the investigation was there another “Greg” or another “Greg’s room” living or located at that house. 

As you are all aware, it is rare in these cases to have any physical evidence as the outcry generally occurs weeks or months after the victimization of the child.  Using their logic, we should free all the pedophiles and rapists that were jailed on eyewitness victim testimony.  How safe would our children be then? 

The prosecutors did an outstanding job and the jury was unanimous in making likely the most difficult decision of their collective lives.  Mr. Kelley made a plea agreement and gave up all right to appeal which speaks volumes as to the strength of the Prosecution’s case, as his attorney most likely saw nothing that would lead to a successful appeal.  The judge and jurors were absolutely correct in throwing out the charges related to the second victim when the child recanted.  This does not negate the child’s initial outcry that specifically identified Mr. Kelley but does create a reasonable doubt.  I can think of no reason for a small child to make up a false outcry, but I can think of many reasons that the child would not want to retell the story.  Please keep the children and families of both victims in your thoughts and prayers.

Please understand that the Fight For GK group is mostly kids, with some adults, who firmly believe in their cause even when faced with the truth of the matter.  They are mostly very good people and well intentioned for the most part, not recognizing that with every little rally they hold they are subjecting the families of the victims to re-victimization and possibly stifling future sexual assault victims that are seeing this rabid support of a convicted child rapist. 

They have a First Amendment right to express their beliefs and should be treated with respect and professionalism.  In my estimation these folks are just more victims to Mr. Kelley’s lack of personal accountability.  Letting his friends and family finance his feigned innocence, after asking for a plea deal,  is shameful.

Keep up the outstanding job that you all do every day and do not be discouraged by our detractors as we have chosen a profession that guarantees critics of our work.  JFK once remarked “too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
God Bless.

Sean M. Mannix
Chief of Police
Cedar Park Police Department
512-260-4600


Finally, here is the letter from SNAP, commenting on the Freedom Festival held at Generations Church. Please pay close attention to their concern for the victim while not denying GK supporters their rights in this matter. 

TX- Church to hold rally for admitted molester

For immediate release: Monday, July 28, 2014

Statement by Amy Smith of Dallas, SNAP leader (281 748 4050, watchkeepamy@gmail.com) 

Supporters of a convicted child sexual predator are holding a rally today to support him. We hope they will change their minds and cancel the event. We also urge officials at a Leander church to cancel a similar event set for Aug. 10.

This month, a jury found Greg Kelley guilty of sexually abusing a four year old boy. Before sentencing, Kelley voluntarily accepted a plea deal in which he admitted guilt. Two young boys testified against him. One mom testified that her son told her Kelley had molested him.

People who want to support a convicted and admitted predator should do so privately, not publicly. To hold rallies for a convicted and admitted predator endangers kids by making it harder for those who see, suspect and suffer child sex crimes from speaking up. 

Those who believe Kelley is innocent should visit him, pray for him, write to him and help his family. But they should do so in ways that do not scare other victims of other predators into staying silent.

By mounting public displays of support for a convicted and admitted predator, these misguided individuals are rubbing even more salt into the already – deep and still – fresh wounds of abuse victims and making it harder for police, prosecutors and employers to catch and oust child molesters. 

Adults must learn to accept a disturbing truth: child molesters don't have forked tongues or devil’s tails or horns on their heads. They are usually not "creepy" people who give us "the willies" or seem socially inept. They are usually charming and charismatic and outgoing. That is often how they are able to gain the trust of children and adults.

So we must overcome the dangerous temptation to believe an accused sex offender is innocent just because he's likeable or talented or devout. Discrediting victims and publicly supporting predators, especially convicted ones, not only hurts the innocent victims who have already suffered too much, but it also hurts other victims who suffer in silence and self-blame.

It creates a hostile environment and does not encourage victims to speak up and help protect other innocent people.

We urge officials at Generations Church to cancel this hurtful event. If congregants really must support a convicted predator, we ask that they do so privately. 

The church is run by pastors Bob & Tammy Brydon (1461 E. Woodview Dr. in Leander, TX (512-616-7000, info@generationschurch.net). According to the church website, the Brydons have been “actively involved in local church ministry, in both lay and pastoral staff positions, in several large Austin-area churches.”

Generations Church, Pastor Brydon and Christian GK supporters-there is a better way. Let's agree to pray that the love of Christ would guide our interactions. Remember, no matter the outcome, God is in control.

Lydia's Corner:Zephaniah 1:1-3:20 Revelation 10:1-11 Psalm 138:1-8 Proverbs 30:11-14

Comments

Generations Church and Greg Kelley’s Christian Supporters: Another Christian’s View — 121 Comments


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    First!


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    @ Amy Smith:
    You should be!


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    Ms. Smith thank you for taking a stand for victims. It is admirable. Dee thanks for posting this, I’m sure it wasn’t easy.


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    Some of the folks in this disagreement seem to not only disregard those who support Greg Kelley’s conviction but also appear to accuse them of being liars and of “adding to the scars on Jesus’ back.”

    That sounds so much like the TV trailer-park redneck tag line of “You made Baby Jesus cry”.

    Who would choose to raise a child in Leander? Can one imagine the bullying that could go on in the schools if one is not a *star* football player?

    I don’t need to imagine it. I experienced it as a High School Omega Male where Star Football Players WERE the Master Race.

    UPDATE 8/18/14:

    I (Amy) replied last night to the above email from Dustin Brimberry saying, “Please do not contact me again.”

    (He did)

    What you can’t handle the truth?

    Translation: “TRUTH HURTS, DOESN’T IT?”

    Last time I had that line used on me was several years ago, in a series of harassing emails falsely accusing me of bestiality. You’d think a church would be above Furry Fandom Drama-Rama.

    And the preceding missive from the guy kept reminding me of “If your Conspiracy Theory doesn’t fit the facts, Invent a Bigger Conspiracy.” And A-holes ALWAYS have to have the last word; because in their little brains that means They Won.

    And even the local police chief used the word “Cult-like” to describe these guys. In a “Cult-like” environment, their One True Way becomes “I Reject Your Reality and Substitute My Own!”

    Adults must learn to accept a disturbing truth: child molesters don’t have forked tongues or devil’s tails or horns on their heads. They are usually not “creepy” people who give us “the willies” or seem socially inept.

    They’re not synonymous with D&D geeks, animated cartoon buffs, Furries, or My Little Pony fans.

    They are usually charming and charismatic and outgoing. That is often how they are able to gain the trust of children and adults.

    Successful child molesters, serial killers, and sociopaths in general are masters at camouflaging what they are, “grooming” third-party allies as well as their victims. If they weren’t, they’d have been exposed long ago. We only hear about the ones dumb enough to get caught.

    Ever heard of the phrase “For Satan himself can transform himself into an Angel of Light”?


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    I have been asked by many of you, why we have not taken a more public stance on setting the record straight while this cult-like group drones on.

    It is as simple as this; we are in the business of keeping our community safe, enforcing the law, and developing prosecutable criminal investigations.

    i.e. We have jobs and lives; this Cult-Like Group has neither, and can devote 100% of their time and energy to their Cause and out-shout us and everyone else.

    (You see this in Activist types, no-life fanboys, and media hogs everywhere; it’s at the point where the first question I ask about a Number-One Fan or Big Name Netizen is “Who’s the sucker he’s mooching off of?” And in fandoms, the loudest and most extreme crazies gravitate to the media like moths to a bug-zapper.)


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    I live very close to Leander. This case is in the local print and TV media several times a week. I believe that although Williamson County law enforcement has a (arguably well-deserved) reputation for being extremely hard-line, inflexible, and reactive, I support the prosecution and defense in this case.

    On a personal note, I am an adult survivor of child sexual abuse perpetrated by a church member, but I never disclosed to anyone as a child, for good reason in my case. But with my personal experience, and also based upon the research I have read over the years, I believe it is extremely uncommon for a child to falsely accuse–especially at this age and this level of detail–and I am heartbroken that the convicted perpetrator is being publicly supported by a faith community. Do they not understand, particularly given what they represent, how horribly painful and damaging their support of Kelley is to the victim? Even when they state that “something happened, but it’s not what everyone thinks,” that stance is invalidating and dismissive beyond description. I’m just flabbergasted that these folks think it’s a good idea to continue this effort in the face of his conviction, the DA’s cautionary statements, and all sense of compassion or sensitivity.

    I have lost all faith in a higher power at this point, but I hope so sincerely that this child and his family are able to grow beyond this with some belief in good and kindness in the world and the people that inhabit it, and maybe even something greater.


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    Since GK took a plea bargain, what are they basing an appeal on? If the media is interested, they should post the trial transcript for anyone to read.


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    I am the first to admit our justice system isn’t perfect. But if guilt or innocence depends on the amount of public support one can drum up with no basis in fact,then we have essentially submitted ourselves to mob rule.For a chuch and ministry to lead such a baseless crusade at the expense of an abused 4 year-old boy is a demonstration of total depravity.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    Since GK took a plea bargain, what are they basing an appeal on? If the media is interested, they should post the trial transcript for anyone to read.

    According to the local newspaper:

    “Kelley’s attorneys filed a motion for a new trial Wednesday that included a sworn affidavit from a juror who said he was the lone holdout during deliberations in the trial last month. The juror said it was only after intense pressure from fellow jurors that he agreed to find Kelley guilty of assaulting a 4-year-old boy at a Cedar Park daycare.

    In the response, Williamson County prosecutor Geoffrey Puryear argues that jury deliberations are by law secret and jurors cannot testify about the process that led to a verdict. Calling the unnamed juror “disgruntled,” Puryear writes that the juror had a chance to make his feelings known in court when the court polled each juror individually.”


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    lemonaidfizz wrote:

    The juror said it was only after intense pressure from fellow jurors that he agreed to find Kelley guilty of assaulting a 4-year-old boy at a Cedar Park daycare.

    Oh, such bravery….the deliberations took a mere 12 hours. Poor juror couldn’t hold out 12 hours? Truth deserves much more time. Then, poor juror couldn’t tell the judge he/she was under duress? Oh good night!

    I think it is a form of buyer’s remorse. Can you imagine living in that town having voted to convict Kelley?


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    lemonaidfizz wrote:

    The juror said it was only after intense pressure from fellow jurors that he agreed to find Kelley guilty of assaulting a 4-year-old boy at a Cedar Park daycare.

    Anyone here old enough (besides me) to remember the movie “Twelve Angry Men” with Henry Fonda? He was a lone juror who experienced intense pressure from the other eleven (who just wanted to go home). If I remember correctly, he was successful in changing their minds to a not-guilty verdict. One of my all-time favorite movies.


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    “Here is a letter written by the Police Chief of Cedar Park whose department apparently covers the town of Leander.”

    Actually, Leander does have its own police force. We have a combined school district (Leander ISD) which covers both Leander and Cedar Park. The assault happened in the city of Cedar Park, and Greg Kelley attended Leander HS in Leander (which has kids from both Leander and Cedar Park attending.)
    This is an excellent article. Thank you for your hard work and dedication!


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    So I’ll spend my 50 minutes of therapy this week talking about this 🙂

    What happens when a child encounters a sexual predator: lifelong shame, confusion, uncertainty, self-doubt, self-blame, self-loathing, feeling separate from the rest of humanity, the expectation that we should take all blame upon ourselves when something goes wrong interpersonally (or online), the belief that whatever hatred and vitriol we encounter we undoubtedly deserve and fueled, that we should without question forgive our trespassers as those we trespass against.

    This is why we victims so often abandon the faith as adults: the Bible says that we reap what we sow (is that Proverbs? I’m a Gothard girl, I should know). So I did something–even as a child–to bring this pain upon myself, and therefore I deserve it? Do you see how this works? Where is God in all of this? That’s what the child in the Kelley case will be asking someday, when he is old enough and strong enough to look back at this. Why was “God” on the other side?

    I just think that if Kelley’s supporters want to do something for him, they should keep it low-key. Raise funds for his defense, write letters, visit him in prison–I totally understand their support their efforts, emotions, and zeal, but I do think out of a sense of propriety and sensitivity it should be kept low-key and local. In summary: Please do not cause any further damage to this very young child and his family. He needs compassion and privacy right now.

    I’m going to bed now. To sleep, perchance to dream.


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    I would like to let you know that I did not respond with further slander because I have learned that every word I say seems to be used against me…… there were many things said about our family and our church that are just not true…. We do not hate gays, Our church is not Anti gay or racist…. We love all people and all are welcome…..

    We did have an event at the church. It was not a church event, in fact there was never an invitation to members. The pastor is in support, but plays no role in this movement. He offered the building because he felt like justice was not served and that it should be. The church did not pass out ribbons supporting anyone. The pastor is not a leader of this movement, that is just not true.

    The reason we did this was to raise money for Greg’s defense fund. His family is ver poor. The lawyer his family could afford did not do the best job. In his first trial his lawyer did nothing to prove his innocents. she did no leg work to help Greg build a case to defend himself. Never hired a PI never accounted for his time…. Nothing, she believed Greg was innocent and there was no was no way he would be sentenced. She believed in innocent tell proven guilty, not having to prove your innocents.

    @billconcerned was not speaking truth, who ever it is. There are no email communications asking anyone to lie about there relationship to Greg. Our family has never met Greg or anyone in his family. We do not have secret meetings. We never have asked anyone to change facts about the trial. Those things are just not true.

    Our family truly believes that a fair trial was not given. We have so much info from private investigators hired, that things really do not add up. We truly believe that Greg is an innocent man in jail and that there could be someone out there that is guilty. We do support the child, we are trying to also help him in this fight.

    I feel like @watchkeep is unwilling to listen to anything. She is so set in her ways thinking just because a church is involved she feels like she needs to attack. The night the comment I made about adding scars to the back of Jesus…. (I know not nice and I did say sorry and erased the comment, but I guess that is overlooked). She was personly attacking our family, church, my husband and everything else I care for. She had no ears to hear why we were doing what we were doing. I would like to say that she did not repost over and over what she was saying……

    I truly feel attacked for standing up for something I believe. We have the best of intentions with this and do not want to hurt anyone. We also feel like an innocent person should not be behind bars. So you see our conflict.

    I hope you see this and can further understand our family and our view on this.


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    I also never called anyone a moron or never apologized for that…. You must have the wrong Megan Brydon.


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    this is my favorite part of the whole article, from dustins email to amy:
    “Once we elect a new DA that can be trusted, I hope that a full investigation is done into Ms. Duty and her band of misfits, and that myself, Brunner and the other ADA clowns all spend some time behind bars for their illegal and unjust politics.”

    don’t have bold so I will excerpt it again, “and that myself, Brunner (&)… all spend some time behind bars”

    he said he hopes that he spends time behind bars (for his unjust politics I guess!)


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    I have to say that the Police Chief appears to be a professional well able to handle this. The same can’t be said of the rhetoric produced by Kelley’s supporters.


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    Megan wrote:

    I also never called anyone a moron or never apologized for that…. You must have the wrong Megan Brydon.

    I did have the wrong Meagan-it was Meagan Agnew. I am sorry that I said that you were sorry for calling anyone a moron. You were part of that volley of Tweets and I was confused.

    Now, can we get back to things that you have said that are quite damaging and unChristian? “scars on Jesus’ back” for example.


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    Megan wrote:

    He offered the building because he felt like justice was not served and that it should be. The church did not pass out ribbons supporting anyone. The pastor is not a leader of this movement, that is just not true.

    Wow, wow, wow! Now this is getting interesting. The pastor used the building, paid for by members of the church to host an event. He is most definitely showing support. The Brydons have been out in front of this movement, utilizing the name of Jesus as if He were some sort of mascot. This is not another football rally. This is serious and lives are at stake. Pastor Brydon told me that he was going to have the people at the rally wear teal ribbons to show their care for the little boy. That did happen as shown by TV coverage. I have no idea why you do not know about it. But I guess that is further proof that you have little concern for the little boy in this scenario.
    Megan
    wrote:

    In his first trial his lawyer did nothing to prove his innocents. she did no leg work to help Greg build a case to defend himself. Never hired a PI never accounted for his time…. Nothing, she believed Greg was innocent and there was no was no way he would be sentenced. She believed in innocent tell proven guilty, not having to prove your innocents.

    Just another example of the continued denigration of the town, the lawyers, the police the everything. I wouldn't advise anyone to step foot in your town if the way you and your friends represent it is true. Also, you need to understand that a jury of Kelley's peers said he was guilty. He was innocent until proven guilty. He was proven guilty by the decision of the jury. He is now guilty until proven innocent.

    Megan wrote:

    We do support the child, we are trying to also help him in this fight.

    How? Where is a rally for him? I see nothing that supports that child in that community. Nothing. Megan wrote:

    She is so set in her ways thinking just because a church is involved she feels like she needs to attack.

    And this is where you and your "movement" have gone wrong. You are not listening to an expert in the matter. In fact, your entire comment is just one more "whine" that you are being attacked. You chose to bring your movement to the public and now you must listen to what people think. You can't have it both ways.

    Amy believes the conviction was fair, just and warranted and that the #FightForGK movement has been over the top in the rhetoric department. She believes that your actions and words have been short on empathy for the little boy and I tend to agree. She is a Christian-listen to that carefully. She is not attacking because a church is involved. She is stating her point of view-a learned one at that. Not everybody believes that Kelley is innocent. You need to accept that. You need also to respect those who disagree with you.

    Finally, I have been watching all of the #FightforGK tweets. I have been appalled by the content of many of them.The misuse of the name of Jesus is what threw me over the top. I do not know what theology is being preached in that town but everyone needs to take a course on the life of Jesus to see just where you all have stepped over the line. "Partners with Satan" my foot!


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    lemonaidfizz wrote:

    I believe it is extremely uncommon for a child to falsely accuse–especially at this age and this level of detail–and I am heartbroken that the convicted perpetrator is being publicly supported by a faith community. Do they not understand, particularly given what they represent, how horribly painful and damaging their support of Kelley is to the victim?

    I am so sorry that you were abuse. The pain of such an encounter lasts a lifetime.

    They do not understand nor do they care about the pain they are causing in their efforts to prove their friend innocent. I believe this entire campaign was started by some teens who are clueless and watched over by some adults who do to know how to rein in their kids.

    Worse, some of the adults are acting like kids with their rhetoric. I was startled when I realized that in some cases I was dealing with adults online. This “partners with Satan” stuff is indicative of the level of theology espoused by some church members in that town.

    They are treating this as another football rally and do not see the problem with the way they are expressing themselves. And then, they will gather in their church and bemoan the fact that people are leaving the faith-never looking at themselves and their “Groovin for Greg” crusade as another nail in the coffin for many.


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    @ Beakerj:
    I feel for that police chief. He is being smeared along with everyone else in public service in that town.


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    sam h wrote:

    and that myself, Brunner (&)… all spend some time behind bars”
    he said he hopes that he spends time behind bars (for his unjust politics I guess!)

    I saw that as well and realized he must made a typo. I think he deserves some time locked in a monastery while being force to read the Bible to see why his theology is totally whacked!


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    lemonaidfizz wrote:

    I just think that if Kelley’s supporters want to do something for him, they should keep it low-key. Raise funds for his defense, write letters, visit him in prison–I totally understand their support their efforts, emotions, and zeal, but I do think out of a sense of propriety and sensitivity it should be kept low-key and local. In summary: Please do not cause any further damage to this very young child and his family. He needs compassion and privacy right now.

    This needs to be sent to the entire #FightforGK crowd.


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    JeffT wrote:

    But if guilt or innocence depends on the amount of public support one can drum up with no basis in fact,then we have essentially submitted ourselves to mob rule

    These folks claim Jesus as their mascot. Yet they do not show equal concern for a little boy. This is mob rule-that is well said.

    I have been appalled at their tweets when challenged.They blow off the opposition as “partner of Satan.”Then, they whine when challenged. One young adult said something to the effect of “I am only 19. Stop attacking me.” That, of course, after she was spouting off.

    There are some adults that need to have their backsides kicked. They have encouraged this nonsense and even sound a bit whackier than the kids at times as evidenced by that email by Brimberry.


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    Megan wrote:

    We do support the child, we are trying to

    Wasn’t there more than one child in this case? You believe the outcome was unjust, yes? So why leave out the other children since the “unfair result” was only based on the one? Surely that was unfair too?

    But I am glad to know that you are also helping the child. How is your group doing that? Because you are correct, fairness is indeed very important.


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    For me, the fact that Kelley ultimately made a plea agreement speaks volumes, not to mention invoking his right to counsel and staying silent. In my experience, innocent people behave differently than Greg Kelley has in this process.


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    Megan wrote:

    I would like to let you know that I did not respond with further slander because I have learned that every word I say seems to be used against me…… there were many things said about our family and our church that are just not true…

    Your responses suggest you’ve been living in a Christian greenhouse and have never developed the sturdiness to handle critique. Every critical statement is not slander. Slander: “Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person’s reputation.”

    Your group believes Greg has been unjustly treated but the majority of what your responses has been inflammatory and careless, and certainly not reasoned: “to review or analyze; to evaluate the merits and flaws of.”

    Those who critique you also make justice and compassion a priority, as you say you do. They see that your responses, as practical fact, are at the expense of deeply wounded children. They are upset by it. Plus, they see that the way your group has proceeded has been destructive rather than constructive to your whole community. Moreover, they see flaws in those critiques you have offered.

    Of course, there will always be a few critiquers who only offer inflammatory statements and all-around silliness. Discernment is a necessary tool to distinguish between solid and absurd critique. And after we get a handle on that, it takes humility (along with another dollop of discernment) to find, among the solid critiques, that which is accurate to us.

    I recommend that you more openly listen to those with accurate assessment skills and honorable motives. It will help a great deal—I’ve found it so in my life.


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    Now I have apologized and asked for forgiveness for saying that. She can accept it or not…..at this point I have done all I can do to make that right…. if someone wants to keep holding tht over my head its on them….


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    I was only trying to set the records straight so you would know. I am not here to argue with you. Everyone can have there own opinion about this. it is the very personal attacks that has caused backlash. @ dee:


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    I am not talking about critique I am talking about personal attacks. Calling us racist anti gay. Attacking our family, business and church. You can call It what you want but those things are not christ like.
    @ Patrice:


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    JeffT

    “I am the first to admit our justice system isn’t perfect. But if guilt or innocence depends on the amount of public support one can drum up with no basis in fact,then we have essentially submitted ourselves to mob rule.”

    Somewhat off topic, but this is currently being played out in Ferguson, Missouri.


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    Megan wrote:

    I am not talking about critique I am talking about personal attacks. Calling us racist anti gay. Attacking our family, business and church. You can call It what you want but those things are not christ like.
    @ Patrice:

    Where and how did Dee call you racist, anti-gay, and attack your family, business, and church? I don’t see it in the above article. Are you referring to somewhere else she wrote something? I’m confused by your conclusions and hope you will help us understand your comments.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Where and how did Dee call you racist, anti-gay, and attack your family, business, and church? I don’t see it in the above article. Are you referring to somewhere else she wrote something? I’m confused by your conclusions and hope you will help us understand your comments.

    Nor have I or SNAP. She’s referring to one parody Twitter account. And I never retweeted any of those tweets she is referring to.


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    NJ wrote:

    JeffT
    “I am the first to admit our justice system isn’t perfect. But if guilt or innocence depends on the amount of public support one can drum up with no basis in fact,then we have essentially submitted ourselves to mob rule.”
    Somewhat off topic, but this is currently being played out in Ferguson, Missouri.

    To me there’s a big difference. In Ferguson there are huge questions about what happened and how the investigation is being handled. Ferguson is looking for answers to important questions. On the other hand, I haven’t seen any legitimate basis from the #fightforGK side for claiming an injustice was done – they just plain don’t think he’s guilty with no basis in fact.


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    Megan

    You mean your personal attacks?


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    Megan

    That was done by one person and it has not been repeated. You know, for a fact, that this is a Christian?

    Let me reiterate, my argument is with Christians in this debate. Please stick to the facts and do what I did. Give proof for your contention that you are being personally attacked. You were offered a chance for this post and did not do it. So, ante up and show me the attacks from Christians-emails, screen shots, etc.


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    Bridget

    I did not, neither did Amy. One parody account by someone did but we know nothing about the person. I gave #FightforGK  an opportunity to provide examples by Christian for this post. They did not so I did my best to scrounge up something and even that I can’t address from a Christian perspective. 


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    @ Megan:
    Megan wrote:

    I am not talking about critique I am talking about personal attacks. Calling us racist anti gay. Attacking our family, business and church. You can call It what you want but those things are not christ like.

    Yes, I know, that was the reason I wrote my comment to you. Please read this openly–we are not here to hurt you, the person Megan who God made, but trying to help you become aware of something vital for your own (and those around you) spiritual/mental health.

    You need to learn discernment; it’s very important. Most of your critiquers did not call you racist or anti-gay. Most, when they brought up church or business or family, only criticized aspects that they saw awry. In fact, less than a handful of commenters threw “racist anti gay” at you, right?

    There are always those few who lash out hatefully, no matter what position a person takes. Every human who takes a position of any kind is a recipient of it. It’s not just Christians who get it and it is often Christians who do it. So it is.

    Wave those few hateful comments away. They are there to keep you from the good critique, the stuff that your heart needs to hear, that your mind needs to consider. You are letting them do that, and thus you stop the pursuit of truth on this matter, done for the love of God and others/self.


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    @ Patrice:
    I mean that the pursuit of truth is done for love of God others/self. Oy.


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    I’ve watched the #FightForGK movement unfold on twitter with equal parts astonishment and dismay. Make no mistake, despite some people’s lip service about “we care for the child,” the movement’s central rhetoric is based on openly calling the child a “liar.” When they say “we want to protect the child,” it will be followed with “…by catching the ‘real perp,'” who of course couldn’t possibly be the “Greg from daycare” that the child(ren) identified by name.

    Contrast this with Jesus’ attitude toward children in Matthew 18:1-10– “Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. […] Whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. […] If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. […] See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.”

    For anyone, let alone a church, to invoke the name of Jesus in a movement dedicated to despising little children borders on–arguably tips over into–outright blasphemy.


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    @ Megan:
    If you are indeed open to solid critique, would you answer several people’s requests for what your group has been doing to support/help the sexually abused child and family?


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    dee wrote:

    These folks claim Jesus as their mascot. Yet they do not show equal concern for a little boy. This is mob rule-that is well said.

    This is FOOTBALL. Pep Rally for the Football Star. Remember Bee Jay Driscoll & MMA Cage Fighting? Similar dynamic, personified in the loser father from Married With Children, constantly bragging about how He Was A Football Star in High School (20+ years ago).

    There’s this movie titled Best Years of Our Lives about small-town high school football mania in California’s Central Valley (specifically set in Taft, a tiny farming town in Kern County). Some 20-30 years before, a high school footballer messed up costing Taft High a regional championship and ended up having to leave town and make a new life in Los Angeles. The Football Star of the time is now some sort of intermittently-employed blue-collar type in town, but is still The Football Hero. (The girl who was the romance interest for both also left town for “the Big City” — Bakersfield.) The main plot of the movie is a Football Rematch, replaying that 20+year-old game so the Loser Who Lost THE Game (now a successful white-collar type in LA) can finally redeem himself.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    P.S. I went through a Football-Maniac High School in the early Seventies. I can attest it was NOT “The Best Years of My Life”. Just the opposite.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    P.P.S. Ain’t Cee Jay Mahaney (The HUMBLE One) and his cronies also heavily into Fantasy Football League role-playing games?

    (I’ve heard of pro athletes getting death threats from Fantasy League gamers when they give a poor performance in a game, causing the Fantasy League lineup stats to tank.)


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    I think the movie is called “The Best of Times.”

    The Best Years of Our Lives is a Top 100 classic film that deals with the difficulties of some who returned from World War 2.


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    You do get bonus points for naming a Robin Williams film, though.


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    The obvious parody account “OJ_Simpson_32” is the only one I’ve seen make the “racist / anti-gay” assertions. However, he isn’t entirely groundless; for instance, he provides a screenshot of Jake Brydon (a FightForGK spokesman who has made several official statements to the news) in a 2013 Facebook post saying, quote,

    “First day back in Austin and it happens to be the ‘Rainbow Run’ and ‘Pride Parade.’ Almost forgot why I moved to the South Texas Coast. This doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals, the flamboyant ones just annoy me!”

    https://twitter.com/OJ_Simpson_32/status/500637737616035841/photo/1

    You’ve got to admit, “The flamboyant ones just annoy me!” is pretty unmistakably an anti-gay sentiment. Has Jake dialed back on these statements any in the past year?


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    dee wrote:

    Bridget
    I did not, neither did Amy. One parody account by someone did but we know nothing about the person. I gave #FightforGK  an opportunity to provide examples by Christian for this post. They did not so I did my best to scrounge up something and even that I can’t address from a Christian perspective. 

    I couldn’t see where you or Amy had done any of the things she claimed. I am wondering why she came to this site to accuse you of anything. I wonder if she bothered to read your article.


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    Megan wrote:

    I am not talking about critique I am talking about personal attacks. Calling us racist anti gay. Attacking our family, business and church. You can call It what you want but those things are not christ like.

    I just read through the body of tweets that have come from your group. Oy! Everyone on this thread (and that’s a lot of people in one small spot) have been simply accurate or have understated your group’s mean-spiritedness.

    I don’t think you have any idea how infantile you appear when you come here cranky/whiny about receiving what you yourself are doing in plenty.

    So forget ideas of discernment; you need to first learn the Golden Rule. That’s a standard upheld throughout humanity, which I point out to show you how far away your group is from anything that can be called particularly Christ-like.

    It’s just embarrassng.


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    JeffT,

    “To me there’s a big difference. In Ferguson there are huge questions about what happened and how the investigation is being handled. Ferguson is looking for answers to important questions. On the other hand, I haven’t seen any legitimate basis from the #fightforGK side for claiming an injustice was done – they just plain don’t think he’s guilty with no basis in fact.”

    What I was highlighting in the Ferguson situation was all the protesters/rioters who are just SO CERTAIN that Michael Brown was an innocent victim of police injustice, with the mainstream media and apparently even the Governor piling on. It’s possible the officer involved screwed up big time. It’s also possible he acted with justifiable force. At the rate things are going, it’s going to be pretty difficult for the truth to come out if it doesn’t happen to fall in line with the politically correct script.


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    @ NJ:

    I agree with that. There are those in the Ferguson group who have already rushed to judgement and concluded that Micheal Brown is innocent. Another problem is that the police have really botched their handling of this by releasing little or no information thereby fueling suspicions that they’re more interested in protecting their own than seeking the truth.


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    What I’m getting at is that in both cases the ones doing the protesting have a desired, predetermined outcome that involves exoneration of their guy, whatever the evidence might actually show.


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    NJ wrote:

    What I was highlighting in the Ferguson situation was all the protesters/rioters who are just SO CERTAIN that Michael Brown was an innocent victim of police injustice, with the mainstream media and apparently even the Governor piling on. It’s possible the officer involved screwed up big time. It’s also possible he acted with justifiable force. At the rate things are going, it’s going to be pretty difficult for the truth to come out if it doesn’t happen to fall in line with the politically correct script.

    I wish I could afford to fly out there. I would be marching with the protestors. I don’t care that Brown stole the cigarillos, he was unarmed and 35 feet from the police car and that man kept shooting at him to the point that the last shot went into the top of his head. Since when do we execute people for theft?


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    To our readers;

    It appears that you all had an affect on Megan Brydon who is apparently married to Jake Brydon the son of Pastor Brydon. Jake has been leading the efforts for #FightForGK. Megan has closed her Twitter account for 6 months. I will take this as a positive sign that they are rethinking their strategy.

    I placed an update at the top of the post.


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    Eric wrote:

    “First day back in Austin and it happens to be the ‘Rainbow Run’ and ‘Pride Parade.’ Almost forgot why I moved to the South Texas Coast. This doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals, the flamboyant ones just annoy me!”
    https://twitter.com/OJ_Simpson_32/status/500637737616035841/photo/1

    I was aware of Pastor Brydon’s tweet so I know that the parody was not completely off base. However, i was stretching to find something to throw this group a bone. It wasn’t easy. I really, really tried. I asked them for proof prior to writing the post. I spoke with Pastor Brydon.

    That was all I could come up with and I knew it was a weak one at best.

    Frankly, the tweeter known as OJ Simpson has done a good job in finding evidence in the request for a new trial, etc. His tweets are quite informative and I have to admit I find his handle humorous.


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    @ NJ:
    I have avoided discussing Ferguson like the plague. Unlike the Greg Kelley situation, this has not gone to trial, criminal or civil (and I expect both) and all of the evidence has yet to be presented. My guess is most of the evidence will be presented in the next month and things will become clearer. It is such a sad story and I have prayed for all involved.


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    Patrice wrote:

    So forget ideas of discernment; you need to first learn the Golden Rule. That’s a standard upheld throughout humanity, which I point out to show you how far away your group is from anything that can be called particularly Christ-like.

    I think comments like yours have had some effect. i have heard that even #FightForGK has been rather silent today. Let’s pray that their hearts were convicted by love.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Wasn’t there more than one child in this case?

    There was and even that makes me sad. There is good reason to believe that the little guy became intimidated and scared, even with the accommodation made for his age. I pray one day he will feel safe enough to tell his story. Poor little guy…


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    J Pow wrote:

    I think the movie is called “The Best of Times.”

    OK. I’m writing this from memory of a title and description I heard years ago.

    Mixing up the titles still doesn’t invalidate the premise. (Unless youre a UC Berkeley debating team type who parses semantics letter-by-letter and goes for the kill.)


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    Thank you for this article! I live in the same county as Leander/Cedar Park and I’ve been following the case since the beginning. As a parent to two little boys, this case inspired me to do my own research regarding abuse and to make myself aware of the warning signs. When I tweeted my support to the victim, I was attacked and argued with by the local teenagers and once I started debating with them, they instantly would turn around and accuse me of harassing teenagers. I don’t think the supporters are bad people, I think they are just blind to the fact that their vocal public support is causing harm to innocent children.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    J Pow wrote:
    I think the movie is called “The Best of Times.”
    OK. I’m writing this from memory of a title and description I heard years ago.
    Mixing up the titles still doesn’t invalidate the premise. (Unless youre a UC Berkeley debating team type who parses semantics letter-by-letter and goes for the kill.)

    No big deal, really. I was intrigued by your description but I knew the classic post WW2 movie was “The Best Years of Our Lives.” So, I figured the title must’ve been similar.

    I live in the Southeast USA. I’m always interested in any media that illustrates the absurdity of football fandom (even if the movie’s goal isn’t to point out the absurdity).

    It really does make me wonder. Was it Greg’s football “stardom” that has galvinzed such support? If not that, then what?

    Quite a strange phenomenon.


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    Dee,

    Fair enough. Sorry if it seemed like I was hijacking the thread.


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    Brittany D

    Thank you for your comment. I do not doubt your account. I saw isimilar behavior myself as I followed the tweets. You boys are blessed to have such a savvy mother as yourself. Thank you for doing your homework.


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    NJ

    No, no. You were not hijacking the thread at all. I was just sharing with you my thoughts on the matter. I have not “banned” the discussion of Ferguson. I have not felt comfortable in discussing it myself. Please feel free to discuss it if you wish.


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    J Pow

    I do believe it was his popular status as a football player dating the blond haired popular girl that played into this story. From what I can tell, he is no star in the college circuits and felt the need to pretend he was a Marine. Football is big in Texas just as basketball is the game of choice in my neck of the woods. 


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    Patrice wrote:

    Wave those few hateful comments away.

    Well said.


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    One quibble.

    A verdict of guilty is not “proof”. It is a legal decision rendered after a certain process of examining evidence. However, it is not proof.

    Like I said, just a little quibble.


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    I think that Christians can be very naive about crime and offenders. Many do not understand that people who are otherwise law abiding citizens who regularly attend church and have charming personalities can have a very dark side of themselves that they keep hidden.

    Many years ago there was a man in my community who was suspected of burning down his house for insurance money because he was drowning in debt. Three members of his family perished in the fire. When he was charged, his church held prayer vigils, they raised money for his defense, then for appeals after he was convicted, and also to rebuild his house. No matter what evidence emerged and no matter that the jury convicted him, they were convinced he was innocent.

    More than thirty years afterwards, I went before the commutations board to argue for the commutation of the life sentence of a woman who had killed her abusive husband over twenty years before. She was sentenced back when officers would walk the guy around the block to calm him down and not arrest him. They never did arrest this man, not even when he put her in the hospital.

    Much to my surprise, a young prosecutor stood up to oppose the commutation. He said that he wasn’t always opposed to commutations and said that he had supported the arsonist/murderer’s release. I almost fell out of my chair. Apparently this man was quite the charmer.

    It is not that innocent people are never convicted, they are. And people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. But I don’t find arguments like ‘I know this man; he’s a great guy who wouldn’t do something like that’ to be at all persuasive.


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    Rob

    I agree. OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony have been declared innocent. 


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    Dee, I’m simply stating that “guilty” and “proof” are not synonyms. In no way am I implying that a guilty verdict is invalid, nor does it imply that any specific individual is innocent.

    I understand what you mean when you say it, although it does grate my ears just a bit.


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    Rob

    I know what you are saying. That is why I mentioned OJ. He is “innocent” of the crime, and cannot be retried, but he may not be innocent. I get that proof and guilt may be two different things.

    But, there is a saying that you are “innocent until proven guilty.” That proof, in the US, is a guilty verdict, although one has appeal rights all the way to the Supreme Court. Even then, even if the highest court upholds the verdict, it does not finally prove anything. That is ultimatly in the hands of the Almighty whose judgement is final!

    So, a question…when would you say that proof is sufficient in order to say someone is proved guilty? Is it a matter of opinion? One man’s proof is not accepted by another man. We get into this all the time. Was Oswald proven guilty? Some say yes, others say no.

    I must say that I take comfort that there will be an ultimate Court with no appeal one day. I will be curious to see how wrong I was about lots of things.

     


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    Dee, I understand what you are saying. Proof is elusive and juries must render a decision based on the evidence they have, even in face of a certain degree of uncertainty. We
    accept the verdict as final.


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    @ NJ:
    @ JeffT:
    Re Ferguson: Being in Detroit, I see what police often do where live the poorest people, and most particularly where they are also black. After a long time of abuse stacked upon insult stacked upon abuse, a community will explode out. To me, they are super-sized metaphors for the abused spouse. The dynamics are similar.

    When there is an explosion of this sort, the particular event is important but not the real point.

    FWIW, police’ opaqueness and “protecting their own” is part of the story that Ferguson is protesting. That it continues to happen in real time guarantees perpetuation of uprising. It’s like Driscoll doubling/tripling down as his church topples around him.


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    The big take away for me from all of these stories of child abuse, is that churches need to have policies, both written and procedurally, in place to avoid these incidents.

    These days there are no excuses. There are resources available that churches can access in order to put the proper safeguards in place.

    What boggles my mind is that some denominations (or, non-denominations) refuse to take these steps.

    If the churches refuse to do so perhaps legislatures need to start looking into these issues.


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    Megan wrote:

    The pastor is in support, but plays no role in this movement. He offered the building because he felt like justice was not served and that it should be. The church did not pass out ribbons supporting anyone. The pastor is not a leader of this movement, that is just not true.

    It seems to me you and pastor Bob aren’t on the same page,according to this email he sent several SNAP leaders. Subject line is “FIGHT FOR JUSTICE.”

    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/08/email-from-pastor-of-generations-church.html


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    Amy Smith wrote:

    It seems to me you and pastor Bob aren’t on the same page,according to this email he sent several SNAP leaders. Subject line is “FIGHT FOR JUSTICE.”
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/08/email-from-pastor-of-generations-church.html

    “Pastor plays no role in this movement” = Plausible Deniability?

    Or just “I Reject Your Reality and Substitute My Own!”


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    “Remember, no matter the outcome, God is in control”

    This always confuses me. If God is in control why was the little boy molested?


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    Lydia

    In the end, He works in and through every mess that we make of this world.


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    dee wrote:

    Lydia

    In the end, He works in and through every mess that we make of this world.

    Amen and amen.


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    Lydia wrote:

    This always confuses me. If God is in control why was the little boy molested?

    Good question Lydia. In my opinion it is only partially true (the God is in control trope). Earthquakes, tsunamis, death by decrepitude and a host of other bad things are beyond our pay grades to rectify. Agreed. But the vast array of the other evils which plagues us? The abuse of the weak and the vulnerable, man’s inhumanity to man, that’s all on our own dime, The Maker ceded control of all that stuff to us long ago when He crowned us with glory and honor (as the Psalmist wrote). Isn’t it high time we started acting like it?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Isn’t it high time we started acting like it?

    Yes.


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    Marsha wrote:

    I think that Christians can be very naive about crime and offenders. Many do not understand that people who are otherwise law abiding citizens who regularly attend church and have charming personalities can have a very dark side of themselves that they keep hidden.

    This is sad but true. It grates on me every time I hear Christian people defend someone on the grounds that “he is such a nice person & even teaches in Sunday school,” etc, etc.
    This kind of comment used to make my grandmother speak up to remind folks that, after all, one of Jesus Christ’s own disciples sold our Saviour for a handful of silver …..
    But there is this kneejerk reaction to defend people who have done horrible things, but not to THEM. (Many of these same ones, though, will then turn around and ask why parole boards keep letting known criminals loose to commit more atrocities).


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    Rob, that is not a little quibble. Illinois had to release quite a few prisoners, jailed for years on death row, when law students investigating cold cases and using DNA tools got them new trials. Tainted evidence, failure to disclose evidence; emotional judgments (the nature of the crime); many things enter into this decision other than outright evidence.


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    Rob wrote:

    We accept the verdict as final.

    Umm. No we don’t. We do not slam the door forever on the idea that an injustice may have been done. There is the appeal process. There is the new evidence issue, including newer technologies, there is the degree of unreliability of eye witness testimony (a general statement not applicable to the testimony of a victim of course). There is the history of some poor legal defense for the poor. There are procedural irregularities (including cases in which the prosecution withheld evidence from the defense) and bad decisions/actions by judges as well as juries. This very thing is one of the major safeguards in our criminal system.

    That said, the way this church has gone about what they are doing is not how to do it. They can raise money for an appeal and for a new trial and for a better defense attorney without trying to make the child/children out to be liars. If they have more information they need to turn it over to the authorities. They should make it a personal issue and not a church issue. In fact, if they follow all avenues and fail to establish what they hope to demonstrate, then the matter can be more apt to be put to rest than if they just seethed with anger and did nothing. But they are going about it the wrong way.


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    Rob wrote:

    We
    accept the verdict as final.

    We always do when the verdict Agrees Completely With ME.


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    Geez, you guys disagree with me even when I disagree with myself. I pointed out that “guilty” is not “proof”. Dee wondered what I would consider as proof. I indicated that juries render a decision even without always having exact proof. We consider their decision final in a legal sense. That is why someone can say that a person was “proven guilty”.

    Of course, we know there are tons of qualifiers to that. We know the legal system is not perfect. We know there are mistakes. We know there are options such as appeals. Remember, my first point was that a guilty verdict is not exactly the same as proof.


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    @ Rob:

    You did say that, but you also said that we accept the verdict as final. I am not disagreeing with your observations but rather with the statement of accepting the verdict as final.


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    As an attorney in Texas, my comment:

    Children under age seven or so, almost never lie. Sometimes their testimony or statements can be misinterpreted, and sometimes they have active imaginations, but an intentional lie is very, very rare. I have heard the taped statements of a four-year old child who was raped by an older pre-teen, and within the ability of a four year old, was making an accurate statement of what had happened. I have read the transcript of a taped statement by a seven year old child who described the assault by an older boy who forced her to do oral sex on him. The description is chillingly accurate, again within the limit of the knowledge and experiences of a seven year old. Both interviews were the first conducted after outcry, by extremely well trained interviewers, who were careful not to “plant” any ideas into the child, but to get the child to tell the complete story without leading.

    Williamson County, where the Greg Kelley thing happened, is notorious for agressive prosecution, sometimes while hiding information from the defense. However, that era appears to be over, after intervention by the Innocence Project and the upper courts.


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    Rob wrote:

    … you guys disagree with me even when I disagree with myself.

    Rob, I think you are wrong to disagree with yourself. Please consider apologising to yourself immediately.

    Er – joking aside, though: since I’ve come slightly late to the discussion (mainly due to the time difference) I have just read through your various comments back-to-back, and I think I have a fair grasp of what you’re saying overall. In which case, I do agree with you.


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    Nancy, I get what you’re saying. No quibble there. I try to keep my comments brief, without lots of qualifiers, which always results in needing to add more qualifiers.

    Remember, I was responding to Dee’s comments in a context of “guilt” and “proof” regarding a jury verdict. And, it was a quibble over the use of a word. Of course, I knew what she meant. It was not a complete discussion of the validity of every jury verdict.

    Sometimes I wish we could just write a paragraph or two without all the qualifiers which everyone already knows. You know what I mean?

    So, I guess I was just adding a qualifier to what Dee was saying.

    Oh brother, I bet I’m just digging myself in deeper here.

    Nevertheless, I am not taking issue with the main point in Dee’s post, about the methods some people have used in supporting the convicted child molester.


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    Rob wrote:

    Oh brother, I bet I’m just digging myself in deeper here.

    You have not dug yourself into anything at any time. There is nothing “diggable” about what you said. I just have seen/ heard about right much of the other side of the coin also and I want to be sure to maintain a balance in discussion.


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    Fae the post itself:

    I usually believe claims of child sex abuse when brought by children (yes-I know of the McMartin case, et al).

    As I think Dee was hinting, the McMartin case is a classic example of “the exception that proves the rule”. From what I have read of the case, many false testimonies appeared to have been made by children. But in reality those testimonies had been coerced from them by adults involved, or else the children were forcefully misled into making statements which, when taken out of context, could be used to implicate the McMartins.

    The children’s real testimony, on the other hand, overwhelmingly exonerated them. And it all began through an allegation made, not by a child, but by a parent, based on indirect and flimsy evidence. The parent in question was the estranged wife of the plaintiff, and her history of serious mental illness was concealed from the defence. Though her allegation that the plaintiff could fly – yes, she really alleged this – would have been a clue that something was amiss. There were many other issues surrounding the case that I won’t detail for the sake of brevity, but Dee’s point remains: it would not have happened if the children themselves had been taken seriously.

    From An Attorney’s comment:

    Williamson County, where the Greg Kelley thing happened, is notorious for agressive prosecution, sometimes while hiding information from the defense. However, that era appears to be over, after intervention by the Innocence Project and the upper courts.

    This kind of notoriety is a great tragedy too, because it inevitably fuels exactly the kind of rejection of the judicial process that we’re looking at here. I hope the Innocence Project has truly worked, because if it hadn’t then one could at least understand – from this distance – the existence of a “John Doe is Innocent” kind of campaign, even if I didn’t like the way they went about it. Transfer the context for a moment to western evangelical culture, though. Suppose I heard that a person had been expelled from a local church congregation, complete with “shunning order”, on the grounds that they had been “divisive” and had “slandered” the leadership. They might be guilty of those things, of course; but how easy would I find it to believe that?


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    Rob wrote:

    Nancy, I get what you’re saying. No quibble there. I try to keep my comments brief, without lots of qualifiers, which always results in needing to add more qualifiers.

    Whereas I write War and Peace, and I still need to add qualifiers.

    “Of the making of books there is no end” – that crazy old man in the Bible was right…


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    Boz T’s new post:
    A Texas high school student named Greg Kelley was recently convicted of sexually victimizing a four year old boy. Despite the jury verdict, a small vocal group of supporters have been working hard to convince the public that this sexual offender is innocent.. Marginalizing the powerful voice of the child victim is often at the heart of this disturbing and all too common objective. In my years as a child sexual abuse prosecutor, I discovered that offenders and their supporters use three common strategies to try and convince others to embrace their distorted definition of innocence:

    http://boz.religionnews.com/2014/08/22/three-common-strategies-sexual-offenders-use-discredit-children/#sthash.FinWXi2K.dpuf


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything or anybody just now. Just adding a comment to this general discussion.

    Some people seem to want to believe and trust the doctor, the preacher, the judicial system, the public school system and so on. That would be except, of course, for those who want to distrust all doctors and all preachers and teachers and lawyers and such. I am personally in the camp of believe (sort of) but verify. Also said as believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you read (before of course I found out that believing half of what you read is giving too much credit to written words.)

    At any rate, what I have found by my jaded and suspicious approach is that there tends to be something to argue on both sides of most arguments, and that makes it all very difficult. I think the answer to almost everything is “yes,but” / “no, but.” It is an uneasy position, and time consuming, and you distance a lot of folks in the process, but I cannot see any better approach.

    At the same time, I have come to believe that what the scriptures say about humanity is true. Difficult but true. Complicated but true.


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    Nancy wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything or anybody just now. Just adding a comment to this general discussion.
    Some people seem to want to believe and trust the doctor, the preacher, the judicial system, the public school system and so on. That would be except, of course, for those who want to distrust all doctors and all preachers and teachers and lawyers and such. I am personally in the camp of believe (sort of) but verify. Also said as believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you read (before of course I found out that believing half of what you read is giving too much credit to written words.)
    At any rate, what I have found by my jaded and suspicious approach is that there tends to be something to argue on both sides of most arguments, and that makes it all very difficult. I think the answer to almost everything is “yes,but” / “no, but.” It is an uneasy position, and time consuming, and you distance a lot of folks in the process, but I cannot see any better approach.
    At the same time, I have come to believe that what the scriptures say about humanity is true. Difficult but true. Complicated but true.

    Nancy, that is an excellent analysis – in my humble opinion. Sen


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    Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:

    in my humble opinion

    You can be humble all you want. Just don’t shave your head.


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    Nancy wrote:

    Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
    in my humble opinion
    You can be humble all you want. Just don’t shave your head.

    It’s in the process of “self-shaving” so to speak. sigh


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    Nancy wrote:

    Just don’t shave your head.

    Too late.


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    @ Seneca “j” Griggs:
    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    My husband was bald. His hair fell out when he was a sophomore in college. It bothered him immensely. I thought it was kind of “manly.” Judging from his extra-marital and post marital success with women apparently so did a lot of other women–or at minimum they did not care.


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    roebuck

    See our new post.


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    dee wrote:

    See our new post.

    Aha! I don’t usually look for the new post this early in the day 😉


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    Nancy wrote:

    @ Seneca “j” Griggs:
    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    My husband was bald. His hair fell out when he was a sophomore in college. It bothered him immensely. I thought it was kind of “manly.” Judging from his extra-marital and post marital success with women apparently so did a lot of other women–or at minimum they did not care.

    Nancy, I hope that he, somewhere down the road, he realized he sacrificed the”good” for the “cheap.”
    *
    Hair today, gone tomorrow.


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    Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:

    Hair today, gone tomorrow.

    Good one. I will pass that on to my son whose hair is trying to escape as well.

    Poor kid, not tall enough to feel good about his height nor short enough to have an excuse. Glasses, and now scalp. That however did not stop him from getting a guilty-on-all-counts verdict last week for a double bank robbery when all he had was circumstantial evidence and no specific ID from either the witnesses or the surveillance tapes. He says he agreed to take the case because he is “not afraid to lose.” That’s it, actually. On the job, with the ladies, whatever, it is not about height or eyesight or hair. It is always about who you are and what you do with who you are. Well, maybe the NFL cares, but for most of the real world, that is not where the action is.

    I know you know this. But maybe somebody needs to be reminded of that.


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    Hmm….I know I’m late to the discussion on this, but its been a heck of a week at work and with family. 🙁

    So, to the point of his post. Being a survivor of child sex abuse, I want the people of Generations Church to hear this. This public display in which little or no thought or concern for the 4 year old victim is demonstrated is an exemplar study in why I don’t want to be anywhere near a church again. This behavior is toxic to victims. Its toxic to them psychologically and its toxic to them spiritually. I speak from a place of experience, not just opinion. This behavior will twist the heart and the soul of any child victim within your sphere of reach.


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    dee wrote:

    In the end, He works in and through every mess that we make of this world.

    I understand where you’re coming from, but on the other hand, isn’t it also possible that the Almighty gets tired of cleaning up our messes when we ourselves know damn good and well that it’s time to grow up as humans and police ourselves? I’m more and more convinced that God has a kind of Star Trekkian policy of non-intervention and more often than not, lets us reap our own consequences for good or bad.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Fae the post itself:
    I usually believe claims of child sex abuse when brought by children (yes-I know of the McMartin case, et al).
    As I think Dee was hinting, the McMartin case is a classic example of “the exception that proves the rule”. From what I have read of the case, many false testimonies appeared to have been made by children. But in reality those testimonies had been coerced from them by adults involved, or else the children were forcefully misled into making statements which, when taken out of context, could be used to implicate the McMartins.
    The children’s real testimony, on the other hand, overwhelmingly exonerated them. And it all began through an allegation made, not by a child, but by a parent, based on indirect and flimsy evidence. The parent in question was the estranged wife of the plaintiff, and her history of serious mental illness was concealed from the defence. Though her allegation that the plaintiff could fly – yes, she really alleged this – would have been a clue that something was amiss. There were many other issues surrounding the case that I won’t detail for the sake of brevity, but Dee’s point remains: it would not have happened if the children themselves had been taken seriously.

    I agree. It is not the case that small children lie; it is that adults with an agenda make accusations & scare their little ones into compliance. Once fear of being punished is allayed in kids, they tell the truth.


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    Nancy wrote:

    My husband was bald. His hair fell out when he was a sophomore in college. It bothered him immensely.

    I gather, from impeccably reliable socio-historical sources, that lack of hair is a big issue for men in the States. The sources in question are
     An episode of the Simpsons, and
     A series of strips from Scott Adams’ Dilbert cartoon

    Adams in particular noted that it was not possible for a man to occupy a senior role in corporate America without a magnificent head of thick, side-parted hair. Hair that would deflect a bullet. Hair that would protect a space vehicle on re-entry.

    This does, however, appear to be changing. Patrick Stewart, for instance, regularly appears in (and often tops) “sexiest man” polls. He’s even a regular guest on Family Guy.

    Personally, though I’m not actually bald, I started cutting my hair very short all round soon after I started going thin on top. If you can’t fix it: feature it!


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    If you can’t fix it: feature it!

    Also said as advice for women: If you can’t hide, it decorate it.

    Patrick Stewart is soooo awesome.


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    Muff

    I think we are saying the same thing. One pastor I know says that God can allow for a number of things to occur within his paradigm. I do believe he allows us to reap the consequences of our actions. How, because he loves us, he still reaches into our situations to give us strength, hope and peace. He urges us to love and he wants us to care for the poor amd needy. He is still there, walking us through. And thankfully, he still offers us his grace.


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    Nancy

    My daughter and her husband are going to see Patrick Stewart in Atlanta next week. They will try to get me his autograph. If they do, I will post it.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    What you and Dee are talking about is at the heart of one of the calvinist issues in one of the Piper books I am currently reading. Don’t throw rocks, I told you all I was going to do this. While I think I am going to disagree with Piper in some of his conclusions, his discussion of places in scripture where this very conundrum shows up is going to be a good place for me to start thinking about the issue.

    Personally I think that we may start with the wrong assumptions. One being that God is somehow limited and has to have one and only one purpose and one and only one methodology and (opps here) that he treats everybody alike and that he has no option but to repeat his prior behavior especially as it relates to me. Maybe not.

    Another assumption is the idea that we can potentially understand God if only we think about it long and well or else if He explains Himself to us. Again, maybe not.

    Another assumption is the idea that now that “Adam and Eve ate the apple” we actually do understand good and evil from God’s viewpoint. I am just pretty sure that such is not the case.

    For a lot of people one starting point is the obvious: who hardened pharaoh’s heart, and when (apparently not from the beginning) and why and how many questions can I dig out of that circumstance in order to have a list of questions as a starting place for thinking. Link that, in my mind, with something from the 103rd psalm: “He will not always chide, neither will he keep his anger forever” and I keep coming back to the observation that “god” seems to be a person, not a program. If so, then one potential answer to the question of what does “god” do would be “it depends.”

    Of course, since our minds are programmed to look for patterns, and if the actions of “god” do not fit nicely into a pattern which we can spot, process and understand, then one potential conclusion is that there is no god. Which may be why some people need fixed and tied down simple answers-to avoid dealing with that potential conclusion.

    Thanks for letting me bend your ear about this. i have a dearth of people who will tolerate my verbiage.


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    @ Muff Potter:
    I like this analogy.
    Also, I wanted to let you know your comment on my blog got caught in the filter and tucked in the “ads” folder. I just found it and responded. 🙂


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    I have to tell yall something interesting about the Leander area…… I live in Cedar Park, which if you look on a map of the area it’s right next to Leander. Residents of Cedar Park and Leander shop at the same mall, drive on the same freeways. They might as well be the same town, but Cedar Park is more developed and is closer to Austin.

    Anyhow, we relocated to Cedar Park several years ago. When we first started looking for a home, I was interested in Leander because it has a certain rural charm and the homes are less pricey. But I have to tell you that for some reason, anytime my husband and I would drive around Leander to look at homes, I would be overwhelmed with a profound (and I mean PROFOUND) feeling of depression. Yet, when I would leave Leander and go back towards Austin (where we were renting at the time) I would feel it lift. It’s hard to even put into words, and I’m sure it sounds like I’m emotionally koo-koo. But it was very real. Very odd, very inexplicable, but very real. I’d drive around Leander and be overwhelmed with the heaviest feeling of despair. But when I left Leander, the emotion would dissipate soon after.

    In spite of these silly/inexplicable feelings, we continued to look at homes in Leander because it’s affordable and has some areas with beautiful scenery (for example Crystal Falls…..just gorgeous!). But then one evening I had a profoundly disturbing nightmare. In the nightmare, we had purchased a home in Leander and had been living there for a few months. My son (who was a toddler at the time) was playing in the backyard when suddenly a man reached over the fence and grabbed him, dragged him off and raped/murdered him. The dream was so horrifying that I woke up shaking and crying. I had never had a dream that profoundly disturbing before, nor have I had one since.

    After that, we never looked at houses in Leander again. We wound up buying in Cedar Park. I don’t have those same feelings of depression/oppression living in this area/suburb of Austin.

    Call me crazy, but looking back on it all…..it really does seem that the Holy Spirit was warning me to stay out of Leander. I recently checked the sex offender registry for my area, and this search pulled up Leander as well. I was shocked……absolutely shocked……to see how many sex offenders live in Leander (way more than Cedar Park or other surrounding towns).


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    Neither you, your husband, son, or anyone else in your family has ever met Greg Kelley (or his parents) yet you are willing to put your entire church, and the testimony of a 4-year-old child, on the line? And you’ve never even met Greg Kelley? I’m sorry, but that DOES NOT add up in any way, shape or form. Something is seriously amiss with you, your son, and your husband. I don’t know what it is, and I won’t try to guess. But while you post things thinking that you sound so convincing……it is clear to everyone else that your emotions and statements just don’t add up. And neither do your husbands, or your son. Why on earth does your son need to go on local Austin and news giving elaborate press conference speeches for a young man he supposedly has never even met? I’m sorry, but that offends the senses of anyone paying attention. If you’ve never even met him, why are you so ridiculously convinced of his innocence? I could understand it if you were his friend, mom, sister, cousin, teacher, coach. Yet you are none of these, and you declare you’ve never even met him. THIS DOES NOT ADD UP.

    Megan wrote:

    I would like to let you know that I did not respond with further slander because I have learned that every word I say seems to be used against me…… there were many things said about our family and our church that are just not true…. We do not hate gays, Our church is not Anti gay or racist…. We love all people and all are welcome…..
    We did have an event at the church. It was not a church event, in fact there was never an invitation to members. The pastor is in support, but plays no role in this movement. He offered the building because he felt like justice was not served and that it should be. The church did not pass out ribbons supporting anyone. The pastor is not a leader of this movement, that is just not true.
    The reason we did this was to raise money for Greg’s defense fund. His family is ver poor. The lawyer his family could afford did not do the best job. In his first trial his lawyer did nothing to prove his innocents. she did no leg work to help Greg build a case to defend himself. Never hired a PI never accounted for his time…. Nothing, she believed Greg was innocent and there was no was no way he would be sentenced. She believed in innocent tell proven guilty, not having to prove your innocents.
    @billconcerned was not speaking truth, who ever it is. There are no email communications asking anyone to lie about there relationship to Greg. Our family has never met Greg or anyone in his family. We do not have secret meetings. We never have asked anyone to change facts about the trial. Those things are just not true.
    Our family truly believes that a fair trial was not given. We have so much info from private investigators hired, that things really do not add up. We truly believe that Greg is an innocent man in jail and that there could be someone out there that is guilty. We do support the child, we are trying to also help him in this fight.
    I feel like @watchkeep is unwilling to listen to anything. She is so set in her ways thinking just because a church is involved she feels like she needs to attack. The night the comment I made about adding scars to the back of Jesus…. (I know not nice and I did say sorry and erased the comment, but I guess that is overlooked). She was personly attacking our family, church, my husband and everything else I care for. She had no ears to hear why we were doing what we were doing. I would like to say that she did not repost over and over what she was saying……
    I truly feel attacked for standing up for something I believe. We have the best of intentions with this and do not want to hurt anyone. We also feel like an innocent person should not be behind bars. So you see our conflict.
    I hope you see this and can further understand our family and our view on this.


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    @ dee:

    You’re right Dee, we’re not as far apart on the ‘God is in control’ thing as it might seem. TWW has done an excellent job of bringing to the forefront the fact that the Churches have not done a good job of keeping predators away from children. Some Churches will even insist that it is best handled in house and will invoke the ‘God is in control’ mantra the whole while. I am fully aware that achieving perfection in this life is a fool’s errand, but at the same time I also believe that the worst abuses from the dark side of our nature can be minimized and from that standpoint, God is not in control, we are.


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    @ Nancy:

    Thank you for your kind reply. Don’t worry about the verbiage, sometimes it is not possible to condense ideas and what they imply as results into one or two sentences, or even a single paragraph. A good example of this is where you point out the question of: ‘what does God do?’ and rejoin it with: it depends.

    This is not an answer that many folks in the Evangelical subculture want to hear. They want something that they can take to the bank and not have to think about, something that will fall within the bounds of the five solas and something that will give them certainty. This is not a slam of Evangelicals, it’s merely an observation. I have met many kind and good people among them, good people who have made the world a better place for all.


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    Still looking forward to the final installment Eagle!


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    I may be off and moderators feel free to delete this if needed. But I use to be on the Christian BBS’s back in the late 70’s and early 80’s and the language used was astounding and graduated to usenet back in I think late 81 or early 82. The BBS’s I were on were centrally located servers that were owned by one or two people. Usenet was far more diverse. Now usenet was far more colorful, I got told to go to hell or I was going to hell in so many different ways it was amazing. My most favorite phrase came from a unique individual I won’t post his name so he does not migrate his dog and pony show here. “False Christian” (the last word is used to describe residue on a bathroom sink. Again I dont use the full phrase because he trolls for it. He really was a hoot. Well I digress. I think there is a different type of swearing that may not contain any four letter words but it can hurt far more. Such as sermons that degrade and belittle the hearer of the sermon. Sermons or phrases that demean people such as is often done to women in and out of the church. Threatening people with excommunication for asking questions is also a type of swearing or cursing in a way, a phrase used to intimidate and belittle.

    I remember a sermon I watched online with a preacher Paul Washer. There was not one swear word in it, but it talked about how evil children, even babies are / were. You can find it on youtube it is an amazing view of really cursing. I get he is trying to really bring home the original sin and just how fallen we are. But he even said Hitler is not anomaly outside the common grace of God we would all make hitler look like a choir boy. Thats just stupid, I am not questioning his sincerity nor his commitment to God, I question his schtick. We all have one, I have one or two they are sort of like defense mechanisms or this is the only way to preach if that makes sense.

    A great example of that is Ray Comfort, he has only one way to evangelize and it is echoed in the likes of Tony Milano or most of the presuppositionalists. It is something we have to be aware of and in my opinion avoid. There should be balance and diversity and above all grace in our speech to others.