"The news prompted an #IStandWithSGMVictims hashtag which SGM critics attempted to use to flood TGC's social media presence. (The hashtag generated about 1,500 tweets and did reach trending status in the U.S. on Friday—for about five minutes.)"
I am sitting in my hotel room, staring out at the beach, trying to make sense of all that is happening. I am not really clever enough to weave all of the threads into a perfect braid. Instead, I shall try a segmented approach.
#IStandWithSGMVictims
To all of you who have bravely told you stories and pursued justice, both within SGM and outside in the courts, I want you to know that you are amongst my first thoughts in the morning and part of my whispered prayers each night. May the conviction of Nate Morales bring a glimmer of hope to your soul that justice is sometimes possible in this world.
My Twitter Discussion with Joe Carter
Over the weekend, a firestorm erupted on Twitter. #IStandWithSGMVictims was started by Zach Hoag. A number of people sent tweets to The Gospel Coalition which promptly blocked a number of people using the hashtag. Folks were intently discussing their banishment from @TGC; your prevailed upon blog queen, Dee, being one of them. All during the weekend, tweets were flying as Joshua Harris discussed his situation and TGC appeared to drop Mahaney from their council lineup. At one point, I had 100 twitter notifications within an hour. That, for our website, is huge.
Joe Carter is the editor of The Gospel Coalition. I was excited when he, @joecarter, joined a Twitter discussion with me @wartwatch. I hoped to build a bridge between TGC and the victims. TGC has appeared to support SGM and CJ Mahaney throughout the civil lawsuit. Even on Tuesday, while the SGM abuse victims were testifying in court, TGC posted a puff piece on Carolyn Mahaney's new book True Beauty. This action appeared to demonstrate a lack of concern for the seriousness of the abuse charges.
My discussion with Carter didn't work out as I had hoped. I encourage all of our readers to view the exchange between Carter and myself on 5/16-17. Carter claims he is neutral in the SGM matter. Hoping that might be the case, I offered to broker a meeting between Carter and one of the victims. I thought it would make a very cool picture: a member of TGC sitting with a victim. It could have provide a balancing counterpoint to this picture of Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, Thabiti Anyabwile, John Piper and Kevin DeYoung sitting with CJ Mahaney.
However, much to my dismay, Carter began to accuse me of smearing and slandering. He hinted about legal action, inappropriately putting a smiley face next to one of these comments. It was not funny in the least. He did not quote anything that I had said and I would urge you to read my tweets on the matter. At that point, I had to stop participating in the conversation since it is never wise to continue after lawsuits get mentioned. Carter went on to go after Julie Anne Smith and who knows who else after that.
Then, Carter calls my very faith and ethics into question. Please look at my exchange and see if I did the same to him.
To top it off, one of the gospel™ fanboys compared TWW to Planned Parenthood.
Perhaps this brings us back to our posts regarding spiritual abuse. The person who brings forth the problem becomes the problem. This exchange was observed by many. However, there is a bright side. There were many who came to our aid: Janet Mefferd, Zac Hoag, Tim Fall, Bill Kinnon, False Wayne Grudem, Father Bryan and so many others. Thank you all for caring about us. In the end, it does not surprise me that those who believe in pastorcentric authoritarianism respond in such a manner.
CJ Mahaney and Joshua Harris removed or resigned from The Gospel Coalition Council.
On Sunday, an alert individual noted that Mahaney and Harris' names were removed from the TGC council. Interestingly, Joe Carter, Editor for TGC and supposedly an expert on all things TGC, immediately jumped into Twitter to say they had NOT been members of the council. Google cache, at the hands of @warwraith, quickly proved him wrong. Then Carter said they had "resigned" from the council over the weekend. Carter did not say why he said they had not been members of the council. (Could the purge have begun; Mahaney who?)
This development is significant, given the revelations in the Nate Morales trial, especially when paired with this next piece of information.
Josh Harris, head pastor of Covenant Life Church, former flagship of SGM , appears to be taking a paid leave of absence from the church.
You may listen to Joshua Harris' emotional sermon from this past Sunday at this link. Harris appears poised to take a paid leave of absence. He claims that this probable action should not be misconstrued as an admission of guilt. He seemed to indicate that he believes his action might be of benefit to the internal investigation that he claims is ongoing at CLC. However, it is of note that he took this action after the rather disturbing allegations made by Grant Layman under oath this week.
Of significance, Harris discusses 2007 which will come up again in the next section. Remember this.
The events related to 2007 are a significant issue for us and they are going to be fully addressed and accounted for by us. I can’t say any more than that.”
“This week, I requested, I asked the other pastors, the board of elders, that I be placed on administrative leave until this issue can be fully addressed. The three other men who had any connection to handling the Nate Morales issue are ready to do the same thing. This is me, Kenneth [Maresco], Corby [Megorden] and Robin [Boisvert].” link
The Nate Morales Trial: What could this mean for the future?
In this section, I will be reviewing the relevant testimony which is the basis for my speculation. I will not be reviewing the horrendous acts perpetrated on Morales' young victims. They were despicable and my heart goes out to each and every person who was harmed by this monstrous pedophile.
The following comments are taken from Brent Detweiler's transcript of the trial.
The first witness called to stand was Samuel’s and Daniel’s mother, Grace Charlene Bates. Of greatest importance, she testified they went to Grant Layman in 1992 and told him about the sexual abuse of Samuel. This fact was not disputed by the Defense. Grant was a pastor at Covenant Life Church. C.J. Mahaney was the senior pastor.
Brian told an older adult, Bob Rosencrantz about Morales’ abuse in late 1991 or early 1992. Bob then told his parents, Dick and Marsha Wolohan. Dick went to one of the pastors at Covenant Life Church to tell them about the alleged abuse. He could not remember which pastor specifically. This led to a meeting with Morales in a park behind the Wolohan house with Dick and Grant Layman or Robin Boisvert. Dick couldn’t remember which one. Morales denied the sexual abuse of Brian at this time.
Grant Layman was sworn in next. Under oath he told the jury he did not report the crimes told him by Scott and Charlene Bates in 1992 that were committed by Morales against their son, Samuel Bates. He also stated that within one year, he learned of the sexual abuse of Brian Wolohan and did not report it to the police either.
Under cross examination by the Defense Attorney Alan Drew (which was surprising), he was asked “Did you have a responsibility to report” the crimes committed against Samuel Bates and Brian Wolohan. To this Layman said, “I believe so.” Drew responded, “Did you report" to police? Layman answered, “I didn’t do it.”
It should also be added that Scott Bates, the father of Samuel and Daniel Bates, contacted the Covenant Life pastoral team again in 2007 when he learned that Morales was a pastor in Las Vegas, NV. The entire pastoral team talked about how to handle the situation with Morales. Layman was given the assignment to contact Morales. Layman talk to Morales by phone. During this conversation Morales admitted to the sexual abuse of boys but claimed he couldn’t remember the details. None of the pastors at Covenant Life Church reported this confession of sex abuse to the police.
Samuel talked to Grant Layman about the abuse of Jeremy. Layman assured Samuel that “They [the pastors] would take care of it.” Yet under oath, Jeremy said Layman “never talked” to him about the abuse. Under cross examination, Defense Attorney Drew asked Jeremy, “To the best of your knowledge did they [the pastors] take care of it” [i.e. report it to the police, etc.]. Jeremy responded with a firm, “No.”
Now, let's take a look at the report of the trial by WJLA . Pay particular attention to the State Attorney's comment @1:40 minute mark. Also, listen to Pam Palmer's(Involved in the civil lawsuit) comments as well.
As you know, Nate Morales is being tried today on another count and will be tried again in approximately 3 weeks. I believe the testimony will add more information and we will be posting any additional thoughts as they arise. Remember, the testimonies by the victims and Layman were made under oath. If they lied, they would be guilty of perjury. Therefore, I take what they say very seriously.
1. The Bates family reported Morales' abuse in 1992 to Grant Layman. Grant was a pastor at CLC, working under CJ Mahaney, who was the senior pastor. The Defense did not dispute this report. It is my opinion that the CJ Mahaney was a strong leader who ran the show at CLC. Is it not reasonable to assume that his brother in law, Grant Layman, might have discussed this with him? Doesn't the "buck stop" with Mahaney? Or did Layman decide to keep this all a "secret" from his brother in law? Did he keep it a secret from him in 1992 and in 2007 when Mahaney was the leader of SGM and also officed at CLC?
2. It is evident from the trial that Layman knew about the proclivities of Morales in 1992. Yet Morales was never reported to police. Even worse, it appears this was never reported to the people attending CLC. When Morales left, it appears that no attempt was made to contact the churches and organizations that hired Morales. This evidently led to further victims. Look at a comment made by Jeff Cole, the stepson of Nathaniel Morales on Brent Detweiler's Facebook page. I believe that anyone at CLC who knew of Morales' abuse, and did not report it, is morally responsible for subsequent abuse.
Jeff Cole If these so called men of God did what they were supposed to way back when they would have saved my mom 18 yrs. of marriage to this monster and my brothers from being victims and the countless others in MI, NV, OK possibly Puerto Rico and Mexico. I have almost lost my faith because of this man and all the other men of God (said with as much sarcasm add possible) who knew about it and covered it up. ******* hypocrites!!!!!!!!
3. Layman admitted that he learned (@ 1992-1993) of Morales' abuse of both Bates and Wolohan and did not report either. He also admitted that he believed he should have reported this to the police.
4. It appears that in 2007 the pastoral team were made aware of the abuse of Bates and reportedly discussed how to handle it. They did not, however, report it to the police.
5. In the above video, the state attorney makes an interesting comment. He implied that law enforcement used to have to wait for the victims to report their abuse. Then he says that they realize that this is no longer the right way to deal with these sorts of matters. Some believe he meant that churches should report these matters. I think he might have meant something very different.
First thought: Could a criminal investigation into CLC/SGM be in the works?
I believe that it is entirely possible that the state attorney's office will open up a criminal investigation into how CLC handled child sex abuse allegations within their church. Layman's testimony was devastating. He admitted that he knew Morales' abuse should have been reported and then admitted that he did not do so.
Even more striking is how Layman's testimony was elicited. The above televised report was wrong in one area. It was the Defense Attorney who got Layman to admit this under oath. It is also interesting that the prosecutors(who work for the state attorney) spent quite a bit of time ascertaining who in CLC was told of the abuse and when they were told. It seems to me that this information was not strictly needed to get a conviction of Morales.
Instead, could it be that the prosecution was setting up for a possible criminal investigation into CLC/SGM? I find it very interesting that both Mahaney and Harris resigned from The Gospel Coalition Council this post week and that Joshua Harris is contemplating a leave of absence from CLC. Certainly, Grant Layman's testimony was devastating.
Second thought: Could the civil lawsuit be back in play since a conspiracy of silence appeared to be hinted at in the testimony?
Atty Susan Burke argued that the statute of limitations that were applied to the civil lawsuits needed to take into account a conspiracy. From our post on the lawsuit
We (the victims and the lawyers) all knew about the statute issue at the outset. But fighting for justice means doing so even against known obstacles. We had a conspiracy theory to overcome the statute but the Court rejected it. The victims are all brave and courageous people whose willingness to fight against evil has already made a difference in the world. Also, please realize going forward with a civil lawsuit does not in any way prevent criminal actions – perhaps may even make it more likely. And please keep praying, as we think the Court erred, and will be appealing her ruling.
When this occurred, I was under the impression that, if a conspiracy existed that prevented a crimes from being discovered, the countdown to the statute commences at the time of discovery of said conspiracy. Of course, the judge did not listen to that line of reasoning since no conspiracy could be proven.
Guess where I am going…I believe that the Nate Morales trial has actually uncovered the very real possibility of a conspiracy of silence between certain members of the CLC leadership team. From my view in the cheap seats, it seems to me that the civil lawsuit might well be back in play since the Bates family reportedly made sure the abuse was reported to pastoral team in 2007. Therefore, it seems that a conspiracy was uncovered during trial last week! So, could the actual statute of limitations problem be overcome now?
Final Thought: The Buck Stops at the Feet of Authority
There is no question in my mind that Sovereign Grace Ministries holds to a high view of pastoral authority. The pastors are the leaders. Also, they believe in strict gender roles. Only men can be pastors. In their system, men should be strong leaders who lay down their lives for their churches. As one who is looking in from the outside, there appears to have been a grave breakdown in leadership within SGM. It would seem to me that "real men" would believe that vaunted leaders should take responsibility for consequential failures in an organization. The buck stops at the feet of the leaders of CLC and SGM. Who were they in 1992 and in 2007?
Sometimes, the church can give Love a bad name. I dedicate this song to, well, if the shoe fits…
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 35:1-36:38 James 1:1-18 Psalm 116:1-19 Proverbs 27:23-27
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First???
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Today, and yesterday, I am comforted to know sisters like you exist Dee! You and the TWW community are often in my prayers.
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As I tried to say within 140 characters on Twitter after my own encounter with Joe Carter on Saturday morning:
As an outsider, it appears to me that CJ Mahaney actively promoted and ran a highly authoritarian, hierarchically structured ministry with satellite churches that all reported to him. That was the platform & basis that he launched his entire public career from. He actively preached that this was the healthiest structure for a church.
He can’t preach for 20+ years on the importance of that tree, then suddenly disavow any responsibility for the fruit of that tree when the fruit is revealed to be rotten.
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Dee,
Great post. Here's the link to the review of True Beauty featured on TGC's website last week.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/article/true_beauty
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For those who may be disappointed that C.J. Mahaney is no longer 'serving' on The Gospel Coalition's Council, you will be please to know that he is still listed as a Council Member for CBMW.
http://cbmw.org/council-members-2/
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I think a charge of conspiracy to enable child sexual abuse would be an interesting one to hear presented. Conspiracy to facilitate a crime generally carries the same penalty and Statute of Limitations as the crime itself. Don’t know Maryland law, however.
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@ Warwick:
Check out this video produced by The Gospel Coalition. It features one of the techniques Mahaney used to exercise control over SGM when he was in charge.
.
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@ Warwick:
And here is C.J. Mahaney talking about HUMILITY on a video that appeared on The Gospel Coalition website.
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PAID leave? Seriously?
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I really hope that these men are ready to take responsibility for their inaction, but I’m not holding my breath. The damage done to the victims and their families can never be underestimated. If they were really concerned, why wait until now to take a leave of absence? Why not resign? After all they are all clearly not above reproach and as such are not fit to serve.
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I followed this Twitter war over the weekend. Sherwin-Williams must have had a huge sale on whitewash based on the amount of it the TGC-ites were slopping around. The TGC flunkies were out in force with Joe Carter doing a highly admirable job following in the footsteps of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, Saddam Hussein’s Minister of Information.
Ignore the facts, Joe, prop up your TGC cronies at all costs, and drive your bus over the already broken victims of their cover-up.
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I’m very confused by Joe Carter. Factually incorrect assertions, vague threats of legal action, a general lack of grace or Christian character – what is going on here? I would think that any reasonable non-sociopath, Christian or otherwise, would be appalled at Morales’ crimes, and appalled that it was covered up. And I imagine that good people everywhere rejoice that justice was served even as they mourn with the victims. What idol has been erected that empowers some to act like assclowns online in the light of these weighty matters?
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“Even children makes themselves known by their acts, whether what they do is pure and right.” Proverbs 20:11
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Dern, deb beat me to it. I found that “True Beauty” review as well. So I contented myself with playing Bon Jovi. So much hair! So young! I was in law school when “You Give Love a Bad Name” came out.
Remember how surprised people were a few years ago when C.J. basically abandoned CLC, moved off to Louisville and started up a new church almost immediately? My thought at the time was that C.J. was trying to make it harder to reel him in for testimony in Maryland-based cases. It’s not that he couldn’t be compelled to testify, but removing oneself outside the state and over 500 miles away could serve as discouragement to anyone seeking to compel testimony. Prosecutors don’t have boatloads of cash with which to make their case, and if they can get the crucial testimony they need with, say, a lower-level pastor named Grant Layman who is still living (according to his LinkedIn) in Maryland, then they will.
Just as a thought…it’s my understanding that the culture of CLC was such that it seems unlikely Mahaney didn’t know about the Morales child abuse in 1993 or 2007. However, what if these guys were more devious than we think and C.J. was insulated by plausible deniability? That Grant Layman took this information and did NOT pass it on to C.J. to keep C.J.’s hands clean? In some ways that almost makes the situation worse, because people would have known to keep C.J. above the fray.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
At this point we are only dealing with courts of law and their limits. Would anyone in their right mind consider CJ to pass Paul’s qualifications for elders at this point? wing the “big man” and not even knowing about serial child predation in your massive organization? Who would trust him?
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I've probably had more practice! 😉
Dee and I have been at this for over 5 years, and we're still going strong! 🙂
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JeffT wrote:
Joe Carter is an adjunct professor of journalism at Patrick Henry College. As far as I am concerned (and I told him this on Twitter) he did not do his journalistic due diligence regarding the Nate Morales case. Seriously, it doesn’t even look like he read even one article from last week’s trial! I wonder if the young people learning from him are learning things like due diligence, or are they learning whitewashing, covering up and obfuscating in the service of their employers?
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How ironic that Joe Carter co-wrote a book entitled How to Argue Like Jesus.
Is that what he was doing over the weekend on Twitter?
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@ Deb:
If that is the case, CBMW is no better than SGM, TGC, or CLC. That said, Our Lord said we would know them by their fruits. The fruits of “Christian” patriarchy is rotten; always has been and always will be.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Jeebuz, speaks volumes about PHC’s standards for academic integrity.
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@ Jeannie E. Hess:
I actually HAD a higher opinion about TGC than CBMW.
Of course, that has all changed in light of recent developments.
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Carter claims to be neutral on SGM? News for you, Joe, there is NO SUCH THING AS NEUTRAL when it comes to sexual abuse. If you aren’t vehemently opposed to it and supportive of measures to keep abusers out/hold abusers accountable for their actions, then you have decided to stand away from the victims.
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Okay, okay, okay – Deb, I made it through one minute and 13 seconds of the first vid you posted above and then had to stop and rejoice at being CJ-free for 5+ years. Then I could no longer stomach listening to him and watching his antics.
Since becoming CJ- and SGM-free I work in detention facilities with adult and juvenile arrestees and inmates. CJ presents as one who appears guilty, nervous, and has something to hide – and that is when he is shooting the breeze with a friendly! Wish I had had those intuitions 10 years ago …
Now for all you Game of Thrones fans: would you rather buy a used car from CJ or Varys?
Warm regards,
Former SG Pastor
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FSGP wrote:
🙂 For any Honor Harrington fans here, what would a treecat’s reaction be to CJ’s mind-glow?
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Dee, I guess I’m surprised that you ever thought you could ever get anywhere with anyone at TGC. They have proven over and over that their name is false advertising. They aren’t together for the Gospel. They are together for themselves and their positions of authority, their power structure, and for making a lot of money.
Apparently, you have more faith in the possibility of true goodness in these men than I ever will.
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Dee, Deb, Julie Anne, and everyone else who stands up to bullies like Joe Carter, thank you. I know it is not easy to constantly be fighting these battles and there are days when you grow tired. Your hard work is not in vain.
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I do not know if anybody else is thinking this, but I believe Layman may be rolling over on his brother-in-law and others. His attorney may have made a deal with the prosecution, hence Layman's attorney eliciting the incriminating response from his own client.
Perhaps Mahaney and Harris thought they "owned" Layman and were caught off-guard by his testimony. Why else would CLC previously issue a statement that they did not know about the abuse until many years later when they had to know it was not true and Layman could have testified to it? Hence the sudden scramble over the weekend to look remorseful? They were not expecting Layman to tell the truth under oath.
Quoting a Firesign Theater recording, "As the Good Book says, there are bigger deals to come!"
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Loren Haas wrote:
“Why”
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This is like Kremlin-watching in the old USSR, trying to figure out who’s in, who’s out, and who got the Tokarev bullet to the back of the neck based on who’s there and who’s not at the Lenin’s Tomb reviewing stand on May Day.
Lev Kamenev never existed, Comrade.
Leon Trotsky never existed, Comrade.
Alexander Malchenko never existed, Comrade.
Sergei Kirov never existed, Comrade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin.jpg
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Mara wrote:
Never underestimate the arrogance of God’s Speshul Anointed Elect.
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I can’t believe this is really happening. Thanks for doggedly keeping on this.
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Mandy wrote:
I had meant to post this, thank you so much for pointing this out. I could not have said it any better.
All I can think of is, let’s be sure to hold up the arms of Moses through this entire battle, lol!
Not to get all of my scriptures mixed up, because Moses was old, a man, and he was with Joshua then, but I just like the idea that people held up his arms because he grew tired. As long as he raised his arms high to God, things went well.
I leave this as an exercise to the reader to look up the exact story, chapter and verse.
Thank you again and again to the Deebs for all of this hard work, especially the Twitter battle. That sounds just infuriating.
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FSGP wrote:
I’d buy it from Littlefinger before I would Cee Jay.
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Some of us have been waiting for many years to see justice. There really isn’t justice because how can you get years of your life back from the hands of abusers?
T4G and TGC have shown their true colors for a long time.
But believe me when I tell you that the party is just getting started. Some of us have never spoken up because we cannot. I will be careful of what I say but I want to encourage everyone that the truth will prevail.
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Perhaps Tim Challies and Joe Carter will be without jobs eventually…if so, the people who are being called to the painting business may need some volunteers. If not, maybe Whole Foods is hiring and they can help some people with their headaches.
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Ardiak wrote:
I listened to the audio, then watched the video, and unless I missed something, there was no mention of whether or not the leave was paid or unpaid. However, I’m not familiar with what the term “administrative leave” actually means in this circumstance. In the past, I understood that Harris did not receive money during the church’s difficult transition time. Perhaps his best-selling book provided him with a comfortable financial base so that he was able to do that.
What a nightmare. If these men are sincere believers — and I think most of them are — can you imagine their sleepless nights at realizing their erroneous & illegal mishandling of this perp enabled two more decades and God-only-knows how many more victims? His marriage to a woman who now knows he molested her precious sons would never have happened. He couldn’t have skipped across the country from church to church, leaving a trail of broken lives in his wake. Morales appears to have been horribly prolific, and, as pedophiles are known to be, a master manipulator. He groomed the church, he groomed the parents, the pastors, his targeted victims — everyone in his life, apparently, so that they’d not only disbelieve the victims, but protect and enable the perp. Twenty years ago, not so much was known about pedophiles. Thanks to Boz and netgrace.org, there are many more materials available. Having been a ‘friend’ (read groomed parent) to a perp in a different SGM church, I sure wish I knew then what I know now. Thankfully, that perp spent the last 20 years in the state pen. Everyone, please avail yourself of those materials, and get educated. The next Nate Morales may waltz into your church next Sunday, charming the defenses off everyone he meets. Be on the lookout. Take notes. Watch carefully, and trust NOBODY.
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Loren Haas wrote:
Now there’s a blast from the past! Firesign Theater was hillllarious! Remember Georgie Tire-Biter? You made my evening Loren. On a more serious note though, sooner or later these organizations will start to howl ‘persecution’. It’s already been bandied about on conservative Christian talk radio in my area. I wait with avid interest (Jeffersonian infidel that I am) to see what the courts will have to say on what constitutes religious liberty and what does not.
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It looks like Tullian Tchividjian may have been given the left foot of fellowship by TGC. He posted on his Twitter several hours ago: “To all those asking about why I’m no longer listed as a contributor @TGC, I will post something brief @TGC before I go to bed tonight.” It doesn’t look to have been posted yet.
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And, while I’m on a rant — this case is another example that the 9-month condensed Pastors College-Light didn’t prepare these guys for the tasks ahead. Did anyone every mention the possibility of perps in their midst to these guys? Did they have any kind of understanding of what they were supposed to do? If they did, they put it as second to their loyalty to the idea of a theocracy that superceded actual law enforcement authorities. They were likely influenced, as was I, by the early homeschool gurus who espoused the idea that government was not to be trusted with our children — that the evil government schools were out to take our freedoms away. I remember reading that stuff and being scared to death that the big-bad government would send a police car to take my children away, and if I didn’t cough up the $$ to join the homeschool legal defense organization, I’d have no legal recourse. A few years later I started teaching in a public school — and whaddya know — there was no such conspiracy going on. There were actual Christians teaching in the schools — some were even principals. They were too busy teaching and trying to make ends meet on low salaries to be conspiring to take over the world. (And yes, I realize that there have been some legitimate homeschool nightmares, so please don’t follow that rabbit trail.)
All that to say this: the mindset at the time was that the church could do an oh-so-much-better job of taking care of ANYTHING than secular authorities could. And victims? Oh yes, what was that catch phrase that still crops up today? “Better than you deserve.” So buck up and get over it, and don’t bother us with your victimhood — we’re too busy singing about the cross.
I was talking to a veteran, high-ranking federal law enforcement person, now retired, about this trial, and when I mentioned the pastor’s testimony, he said if it was his case, he would’ve whispered to the prosecutor, stopped the trial right that minute, read the guy his rights, and charged him with conspiracy and accessory after the fact on the spot. In light of that, the idea of a deal sounds plausible.
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That is George LeRoy Tirebiter to you!
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Interesting you mentioned Zach Hoag. I remember his post from a year ago condemning “A False Gospel of Reconciliation” after the lawsuit failed. Including his outraged (and prophetic) “We all know how this ends, right? WE ALL KNOW HOW THIS ENDS!”
And now were finally seeing how this “ends”, exactly as predicted. Once the allegations were out, the facts were so clear… WE all knew this outcome was coming–how could they not?
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2 observations from a lawyer who has taken a few depositions and tried a few cases. These are mere guesses. I wasn’t in the court room to see the build up, the demeanor etc., and I don’t know Joe Carter. But here’s my take:
1. Grant Layman was overcome by the truth. I don’t think there is any way he could deny having received the information, and there was no way he could claim that he reported the incident.
2. Joe Carter is one angry man. This has not turned out as he had hoped, and he snapped at you. Dee, you are in about as much legal trouble as Aunt Bea. For him to have said that – twice, just shows his weakness.
3. I am really guessing here, but I suspect that the Maryland prosecutors are going to keep Morales and the abuse at center stage and leave CLC, Mahaney, Layman et al. to their own fate. If the Catholic Church litigation history is any example, Layman’s testimony just formed the basis for the writing of a big check to every child who was abused by Morales after the confession and failure to report by CLC and its pastors. I don’t know how that fits into the existing civil lawsuit, and whether the appeal can be won. it seems to me that the failure to report is actionable only to people who were abused later. The legal issue is whether CLC and its pastors had a civil legal duty to the late, future victims to report the abuse and whether the failure to report was the proximate cause of the later abuse. If so, that’s a basis for liability. I can’t remember how many of the plaintiffs in the current civil suit fit that description. There are some people in Arizona, New Mexico etc. who clearly do.
I suspect (and it’s just that, a suspicion) that the prosecutors are going to let CLC and its pastors suffer in the civil courts for their failures and that will be punishment enough.
But I have been wrong before.
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TGC has officially weighed in with an essay by Wendy Alsup: http://thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-trauma-of-abuse-and-the-blessing-of-repentance
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The hyper-defensiveness when questioned, the sudden resignations, the shifting statements. All of these are red flags to me. They seem like the reactions of people who don’t have much of a plan but to try and avoid the probably inevitable scrutiny and consequences. Gut feeling: something is very wrong here, and what is known so far probably only scratches the surface of it. Also, speaking of gut feeling (and I’ve learned to trust mine because it has a good track record of accuracy in my fairly considerable life experience), I got through a little over a minute of that first video and had to shut it off because my weirdness meter was peaking well into the red zone. Mahaney just comes across to me as creepy, and anything but plainspoken and genuine. I try to stay far away from this kind of thing.
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That Twitter thing was crazy – my notifications were going off the wall. Pardon me, TWW readers, but I’ve gotta do this.
Hi Joe. I’m sure you are reading because that’s what people like you do.
Since I’ve got your attention, Joe, I want to give you another opportunity to come clean on this: https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/467685746782908416 Oh, and you might want to look up the proper use of slander. You’re not using it correctly. ~ja
Joe claimed I “attacked” him and has blocked me.
Regarding all of the blocking going on: I find it very interesting that the people who are so hot on proper “Biblical roles,” who want to present themselves as so manly, are very weak and shut down conversations by blocking. So much for open and honest dialogue.
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@ Janet Varin:
Perhaps it would have been better for those involved at CLC and their defenders to experience the “blessing of repentance” before all the facts started coming out.
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How does a man in charge get to a place where he’s denying easily discoverable facts, like Joe Carter?
In my experience, leaders boldface lie when they operate in a sub-culture that isn’t allowed to ask questions, or has been lulled to inaction like bees in smoke. The smoke is the confusion that is created around the issue in order to create doubt. It becomes an efficient, expedient way to make a problem disappear by simply lying. People just shut up and back down.
Joe Carter failed to realize that these women are immune to his smoke. He was unable to do his magic trick. Either that -OR- he did what came naturally to him and he’s now facing a most unpleasant wake-up call that he doesn’t even know how to process because he thinks he was doing the “right” thing by protecting TGC’s reputation. As he wakes up further he will come to realize that he actually hurt TGC’s reputation, and worse yet, he will realize TGC’s reputation matters little. It’s Jesus’ reputation that he really marred.
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Warwick wrote:
Warwick, this is what Chuck Smith -founder of Calvary Chapel- did when he was faced with lawsuits towards the end of his life. He formed an association of churches and sometimes exercised church discipline and kicked people out of the association, while others were removed due to having Reformed Theology (Don’t ask, I still don’t get it.) But he suddenly started saying he never had any authority over the other churches and didn’t want to. It was a boldface lie, but he was advised to do so by a lawyer because of the lawsuits Chuck was facing.
The loss of money and/or freedom will make grown men lie, no matter if everyone can see it’s a lie. They just grit their teeth, close their eyes and hope it goes away. As long as the people want to worship them, they will not give up their idol. That’s how these men survive this.
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Pam wrote:
Money
Prestige of position and proximity to the inner circle
Need to be right, to be on the right team
Simply too much time in a bubble where dissent and objective critical thought are not allowed
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I just wanted to weigh in & repeat huge thanks to Dee & Debs, the survivors who have told their stories & anyone else, like Julie Anne who has been beavering away for justice. Bravo people! The moral spinelessness of these ‘leaders’, the ‘shepherds’ looking the other way as the lambs are brutalised needs to be dug out of the church.
I hope to God that each one of these ‘men’ is having a ‘holy sh*t, I covered up child abuse & children got raped’ revelation that shakes them to the core. In my job I’d be fired, prosecuted & rightfully imprisoned for exactly what they’ve done. Yes guys, you helped a predator ( & remember there are often 100’s of crimes before anyone speaks out), I hope you are proud.
All those hints of legal action against you Dee… what are they going to claim? Dee is guilty of caring for abused children? Well, yes, her & Debs are definitely guilty of that.
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Tullian Tchividjian has his final blog post up at TGC.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tullian/2014/05/20/ive-come-to-set-the-captives-free/
He didn’t pull his punches. I wonder who wanted him gone?
“I had informed The Gospel Coalition of my plan to make this transition in August when the new Liberate site is launched, but was informed on Thursday that certain members of The Gospel Coalition wanted the transition to happen ASAP.”
“None of the powers that be, however, ever mentioned anything to me (either by email or phone) before Thursday when I was simply told that the transition needed to happen now.”
“I have long admired the original mission of The Gospel Coalition to be a hallway where Christians from all denominational backgrounds who may disagree on non-essentials could gather and rally around the Good News (hence, the name “Gospel Coalition”). But, in my opinion, the messaging of The Gospel Coalition has morphed over the last seven years…”
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Muff Potter wrote:
Yeah, US Evangelicals who call “persecution” are childish. It works like a backward version of crying “wolf” – claim it often enough and it might come true simply because people get tired of hearing it.
One wonders why they want it so bad.
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@ Loren Haas: Corrected it 🙂
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@ BD:
We are finally seeing the underbelly of The Gospel Coalition machine, and it's not attractive at all…
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Dear Deb/Dee/Various Peeps
Please note that I am not a fanboy of any kind, despite what you categorize me as. I am vaguely aware of TGC and what they do, but only by association of some of the bloggers I like to read- in this case Justin Taylor, Kevin Deyoung and Tullian T.
As far as this whole mess with Nathan Morales goes, I believe that sexual abuse in the church is horrific, probably more prolific that even the best of us imagine, and that once discovered, it needs to be taken directly to the police and the people responsible for doing it, as well as anyone who tried to cover it up, need to be exposed- reputations and church unity and everything else be damned.
That’s my view on this. The comment about TWW being akin to planned parenthood in the fact that they like to kill reputations is wholly UNRELATED to this situation, though it some instances it certainly applies. I think it’s a good thing that you’ve helped bring awareness of SGM sexual abuse and have exposed how messed up the leadership is- its too bad you guys can’t stick with the facts, and instead must theorize motives and intentions of other parties vaguely related to this, all done in a supremely ungracious way.
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Has anyone obtained the transcripts of the Morales trial? Can they be obtained?
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@ Anonymous:
I would still like to see a prosecutor try to make a “conspiracy to enable child sexual abuse” case against the pastors at CLC,because that was exactly what they did, whether they intended it or not.
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Janet Varin wrote:
Ugh, some of the comments. And the reluctance to call rape by its name. Not to mention the poor girl subject to public shaming that would have been inappropriate even if the sex had been consensual. Ugh.
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@ BD:
I had heard some rumblings online about some, probably TGC-ers, being upset at Tullian’s position on the Law, and concerned about him being “antinomian.” I’m no theologian, and I’m “just” a SAHM, so have not had the chance to wade into the all the he said-he said on this. But that’s what I’ve seen around in the blogoverse.
Maybe distancing themselves from him because he’s Boz’s brother…and Boz has been pretty frank about the goings-on with the SGM/CJM thing?
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Loren Haas wrote:
Oh, yeah. It’s got that written all over it. Or, perhaps the prosecution was just trying to sew up the case and the defense was either inept, or had agreed to “help us get him like this and we will agree to ask for a lighter sentence? Either way, I wonder if Morales knew that his own lawyer was going to twist the knife? Would Morales have had to agree to a deal, if there was one, which did not require him to publicly repent on the stand? Whichever, I do note this: lawyers cut more deals than used car salesmen, be it civil or criminal, or so I observe from the peanut gallery.
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On a technical note. Apparently there was a hiccup at our hosting company for a few minutes just now and TWW wasn’t reachable. All seems OK now. No need for any discussion on this.
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@ dustin germain:
Surely, being such a stickler for concrete facts, you have some examples of baseless reputation assassination from this blog?
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Mara wrote:
I must admit-hope is fading fast.
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Warwick wrote:
Warwick – Thanks for this comment. It says in one sentence what iI have been feeling and couldn’t put into words.
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Here’s one, posted just a very minutes ago in this very combox
“Eagle UNITED STATES on Mon May 19, 2014 at 11:18 PM said:
Time to weigh in. First some thoughts about Joe Carter-
Joe Carter is a thug…
Joe Carter is a parasite…
Joe Carter is the “Joseph Goebbels” of THE Gospel Coalition. At this point he doesn’t give a rat’s behind about fact. He has propaganda to spin. He doesn’t care about fact. The industrial complex must be defended at all costs. And as this picture shows, when things are winding down….
You still defend the propaganda. This will be harsh but this is how I am feeling right now. I’ve stood by and seen common sense vanish from these people. They have lost touch with the Bible, God, humanity, and decency. Joe Carter is a fine example of that my friend. If THE Gospel Coalition were the equivalent of the Third Reich then I could see Joe Carter ordering, carrying out and ensuring the execution of the Jews in the Holocaust. Then I could hear him say, “What’s 6 million Jews lets go for 15 million…”
And then I could see him standing before the court in Nuremberg saying, “I was just following doctrine”
Whoever is the last man standing in this crap by Carter…make sure you leave him along side the cube and leave him out for the trash.
End rant….”
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Loren Haas wrote:
Interesting comment. Point of fact: Harris mentioned that statement they released. He appeared to say some might see it contradictory. Your thought definitely have merit.
Pingback: Josh Harris Requests Leave of Absence In Child Sex Abuse Case | The Common Room
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@ Marie2:
This blog, and Julie Anne’s blog only make a difference because of you. We could be simply talking to a wall. You guys are the ones who get this stuff out.
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Bella Stone wrote:
You go for it. TWW is behind you, prays for you and stands with you always. #IStandWithSGMVictims.
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dustin germain wrote:
Frankly, you can stick it up your nose.
You have deeply insulted me and my long time support of pro life efforts. I even wrote my own story on this matter.
You reflect the the attitude of gospel™arrogance. Unlike how you run things, you may comment here but you know you do so because I believe in hearing the opinions of those who disagree with us.
“Send me proof, just not from TWW.” What a crock.
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Anne, eh! wrote:
I have as well. You must play by their rigid rules or you are out.
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dustin germain wrote:
Were that the case, and if indeed that proves to be the case, not withstanding sworn testimony to the contrary which seems to indicate otherwise, then your comment would have more credibility.
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Katie wrote:
Regardless of whether it’s Joe Carter, Joe Soap, GI Joe or Nick Bulbeck, I think it tends to happen in one of two ways.
The more overtly shocking occurs when, like Judas Iscariot, one is dishonest from the very beginning, as the last few verses of John 6 strongly imply, and does not at any stage repent and allow oneself to be crucified with Christ. Right from the outset, a man like that sees church life as an opportunity to get something he wants – it’s true in secular walks of life too, of course, but we’re talking about church life here. And at no stage does he care who or what has to be sacrificed to get it.
The more subtle way is: one step at a time. Bear with me while I quote the most-misquoted verse in the Bible:
To me, that word “wandered” is instructive. That kind of man doesn’t wake up one morning and think, stuff the Kingdom of God, I’m off to get rich and influential at others’ expense. The pursuit of success that can be measured by numbers, the steady drip-feeding of statistics from all sides creating an atmosphere in which those numbers really matter; and so on. All of these steadily erode a man’s discernment, conscience and integrity (in approximately that order, I guess) until he starts to pursue them instead of the still small voice. Before long, he loves only those who love him, and/or from whom he can gain advantage. Necessarily, he despises little people and outsiders, and respects only those to whom he can tip his hat without losing face.
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It seems like things are starting to implode, and light is overcoming the darkness. I certainly am struggling with feelings of a “I told you so” to those who put me in the Box of Divisiveness. 🙂
The Gospel Coalition, T4G, and all these “gospel” gang members almost stopped me from even wanting to hear the word “gospel” ever again. But, they are just men, and the Good News can’t be boxed in.
Jesus continues to tell us all, “Do not be afraid.”
Do not be afraid.
Do not be afraid.
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Katie wrote:
Ummm. You mean like the upper level government people who testify before congress regarding IRS, VA, Benghazi, HSA, ObamaCare et al?
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If you click on his name, you will go to a blog post that Germain has written about TWW and all of us.
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Nancy wrote:
I am not referring to CJ or Harris, if that’s what you’re asking.
As it were, however, I would suspect that even if someone like Harris is completely exonerated, it would not stop the comments coming and no apologies would be forthcoming to him, his family, or his congregation members.
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Marsha wrote:
I have, yup
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dustin germain wrote:
I asked. What are you referring to, specifically.
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dee wrote:
So now that they have publicly parted on awkward terms, maybe some more people will gather around Tullian and his group in opposition to some of the stuff the TGC people are now advocating. He seems like he would be more than capable of being such a focal point of some serious opposition. Smart. Well spoken. Educated. Connected. Biblical.
Were I TGC I would not want to have alienated this man any more than I could help.
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@ dustin germain:
Proud of yourself for writing an attack piece with no specific examples. Pitiful.
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burn: i would be referring to the many members of the TGC who have been tar and feathered by association
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dustin germain wrote:
if you read the article, you’ll notice that I gave about twenty
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@ dustin germain:
Such as? And what lies have actually been told about facts?
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@ burnrnorton:
I guarantee you he will not even be able to point out even 1 lie and back it up with facts.
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@ dustin germain:
Listing a list of “mean things” said about Mohler (a single man, BTW, not several), out of context, sans links, and without actually discussing how the statements or the facts on which they are based are untrue, doesn’t cut it.
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@ dustin germain:
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. LOL!
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dustin germain wrote:
I wasn’t asking anything. I was issuing a challenge. Thank you for responding.
Your comment that apologies should be issued when and where they are due is absolutely correct. I probably disagree as to when and where they might be due. For example, I think it is right and just that people be held accountable for bad decisions in choosing associates.
But thanks for bringing up the subject. Open discussion is good.
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Marsha wrote:
But, of course. What else would you expect from a Mohler fan.
By the way, I don’t believe it was TWW who covered the comment about Sproul, Jr. spanking his wife.
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You are funny Dustin. You look a little scruffy in your selfie.
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I left this comment on Tullian’s post at TGC. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tullian/2014/05/20/ive-come-to-set-the-captives-free/:
The Gospel Coalition preaches the “gender gospel” and has elevated the complementarian view of gender roles to the status of an essential. The bad fruit of this position is becoming more and more clear.
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Nickname wrote:
Sounds just like the “Gimme Money or it’s the End of the World!!!!!” letters I used to get from the NRA: “If you don’t Give Us MONEY the Gubmint will take away your guns AND IT’LL BE ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!!”
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Patti wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a14vFqlYigc
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Patti wrote:
Yeah, but so do I.
Though to be fair, my selfie was taken at 7am on a remote Scottish mountain I had climbed that morning after a 4am start. I defy anybody to look good under those circumstances.
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As Brent Detwiler reported it at http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/the-criminal-trial-of-nathaniel-morales-report-on-day-1-2.html …
**
Under cross examination by the Defense Attorney Alan Drew (which was surprising), he was asked “Did you have a responsibility to report” the crimes committed against Samuel Bates and Brian Wolohan. To this Layman said, “I believe so.” Drew responded, “Did you report” to police? Layman answered, “I didn’t do it.”
**
The moment I heard of Grant Layman’s admission under oath, I had a gut feeling that this was “THE” loose thread sticking up that, when pulled on, would unravel the fabric of the whole thing that’s been woven together over the past 30+ years in the CLC/SGM case of alleged failure to report and refusal to report and telling/ordering others not to report known/suspected sexual abuse.
But I’m still trying to put the pieces together on that admission and make sense of it, and link it with the statement from the prosecuting attorney in the news report video on this thread, and link all that with what An Attorney has said about a *criminal* trial on conspiracy to enable sexual abuse and implications it also has for *civil* lawsuit for survivors.
Could someone with a legal background help me understand why the defense attorney drawing out this information has increased significance for the admission? Do Mr. Morales and/or Mr. Layman and/or Covenant Life Church share the same attorney? Does it have any legal implications for potential future criminal or civil cases that it was the defense attorney instead of the prosecution that brought forth this admission in court?
Thanks …
And The Deebs, many thanks for keeping a flow of information going, and especially for periodic summaries — you’ve helped helps greatly in keeping up with the geyser gush of details …
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dee wrote:
Here’s one of the most curious things to me about what’s been developing over time. Para-church organizations like TGC are, by definition, inter-denominational and, therefore, necessarily include a diversity of beliefs on a number of issues. But TGC has come to define a number of issues issues it considers to be foundational and will not tolerate any discussion of them. One of these foundational issues is absolutely no open discussion of the actions (or lack thereof) of any TGC’s poo-bahs will be tolerated no matter how immoral they may be – I almost think that if one of the TGC ‘luminaries’ were to sacrifice a virgin on the alter TGC wouldn’t allow discussion of it.
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@ dustin germain:
Dustin, it is clear you are happy and in the fold at xyz Baptist Chruch wherever you live. My guess is you have always been in the in crowd in that world and have no reason to question where you are. I myself am troubled by this over authoritarian group known taking over conservative evangelicalism. This is part of a mechanism of the right wing politicians to keep middle America in line to keep voting in yes men for big corporations. The Gospel Coalition is a group promoting ignorance among conservative evnagelicals. You stay in a narrow intellectual bubble and only read blogs by the approved authors they tell you to read. It is really sad but most Americans are sheep and want vaunted leaders to tell them how to think. Finally, I think you lack a sense of humor if you can’t laugh at the quotes in your blog posts. I recommend taking in some real humor like Carlin or Hicks and then reading some Zinn. Who am I kidding that will never happen and I dont want you to lose your spot with jocks at the SBC.
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@ dustin germain:
You have your head firmly planted in the sand. This blog exists to get the closed evangelical world to hear what the world is saying about them. Believe it or not, pretending how much we are loved is naive. You don’t get us and you are arrogantly sure of your opinion.
As for Eagle, he arrived at this blog an agnostic, angry at God and the church for very good reasons. Last November, a group of us participated in his baptism. Part of his healing has come from all of us listening, long and hard, to what he has to say,
In a couple of weeks, we will be posting his story. And frankly, he has done something that is so astonishing that it will move many to tears. So, go ahead. Pick on Eagle. Then read his story and weep.
Eagle has become my dear friend and I didn’t know him until I started blogging. You could only hope to have such a friend!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Probably so. There are also those who never gave a hoot in the first place. Not from the get go. My (former) husband was a pre-ministerial undergrad at Baylor back in the day. He and a couple of his buddies apparently had them a little preaching and singing student evangelistic group of sorts. There was a lot of this at Baylor apparently at that time. Many such little groups going out on weekends to various churches. Said (former) husband used to tell spine chilling accounts of the crassness and chicanery and deceitfulness and money-soliciting behavior of some of his compadres out on the weekend “missions” they were invited to at various churches. I heard no evidence of any early period of idealism or even innocence in the people he was describing.
This kind of stuff is one of the reasons I hesitate to hop on the good-old-SBC-days bandwagon.
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@ dustin germain:
Dustin’s comments might carry a little more weight if he was just as willing to hold his buddy Joe Carter and the others at TGC just as accountable for their words. Of course, he’d still need to actually back up his accusations with actual proof.
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JeffT wrote:
ROFL. And CJ Mahaney was one of those poo-bahs. I am trying to figure out if the TGC Council which met last week, decided that they are getting hammered to much and told them to pack their bags…
Wait, no, they just got rid of Tullian Tchividjian These guys have no idea how ridiculous they are beginning to look.
Hey HUG: The comrades are beginning the purge
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Okay Dustin, sorry about that slam on your photo, Actually, not sorry yet.
I’m usually not that kind of commenter that you are referring too, although I do believe that you are wrong about your TWW assessment and any comments that might ring true to your criticism are rare here.
Here is a fact… Your bio from your blog: I’m a 30 year old guy and husband to one wife. I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church, spent several years lost in the ultra Pentecostal/ Charismatic wilderness, and now have found peace and rest in the great Reformed traditions. I read lots, write lots, and I love God as imperfectly and as infallibly as I can. I also blog at pulpitandpen.org
You mentioned believing in the Heidelberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession and the Canons of Dordt. I used to have to say in my Calvinettes Club as a sworn pledge that I believed those three confessions to be the true interpretation of the scriptures.
I’ve also been in the craziness of extreme Pentecostalism. I have renounced many extremes not because they were extreme but because I found error in those extremes including the extremes of reformed traditions that you have found peaceful. From your blogging you don’t sound restful and peaceful to me yet, just young.
Personally I now have found rest and peace in Jesus Christ alone. That began when I was your age when I actually told God that I wanted to know Him, my heart changed instantly and then I read the Bible all by myself even though I had been raised on it my whole life in a few different traditions, memorizing whole chapters just to graduate from a Baptist school. You are so young yet, but if you keep reading lots of books by the same authors that we criticize here how will you know if your rest is the best? I suggest that you actually listen to what we say about their teachings and reputations rather than get too bent out of shape at how a few people talk about them, usually by people who have been deeply hurt by them and deserve some slack on their message delivery.
In Hebrews 13 we are told to consider the outcome of our faith heroes. This is one way we are testing spirits and doctrine to see if they truly be of God or not. You make that sound like a bad thing.
Now, you stop showing such dishonor to the the hosts of this blog. You just don’t know what you are doing. We have one regular commenter here who is just a little more than 2/3s your age, has own blog, has never been disrespectful here, has never talked like you say commenters here talk, and writes with the wisdom of someone much older than me, so I’m not saying I can’t learn something from the young but you sir have a lot of growing up to do before making a positive impact on me.
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I should have put a break after the second paragraph, that ended Dustin’s bio then I started talking about myself in the third paragraph.
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Dustin’s comment above was pretty mild compared to the stuff he tweets about TWW and me. Take a look: https://twitter.com/paperhymn/with_replies
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BTW – Dustin and so many like him make the job of a blogger easy. We don’t have to say much because their own words and behavior reveal their heart.
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@ Julie Anne:
Dustin is just another typical, ho hum, wannabe gospel™ boy who thinks he will be accepted by his celebs if he just sounds arrogant enough. Sorry about his slam.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Deb and I always laugh about it. If they would just shut their mouths, we would have nothing to do. But some people can’t keep quiet.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Excellent comment – you hit the nail on the head. When you think about it, his behaviour is ludicrous. He’s basically (and by extension TGC) defending those who covered up child abuse. Has he at any point expressed any degree of shock, regret, dismay at the sin that’s been revealed here and the suffering of innocent victims??
To answer your question, it seems that doctrine has become a god. It trumps everything else. It certainly trumps love and compassion. I see no love, I see no compassion from Carter et al. What is see is a desire at all costs to protect buddies who are in your camp and hold the ‘correct doctrine’. It’s horrifying when you think about it.
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@ burnrnorton:
Oh, I’m quite willing to say mean things about Albert Mohler. I’ll confine myself to two items.
* First, Mohler is a proponent of early marriage. This despite the fact that studies indicate early marriages are more prone to failure, in large part due to financial issues. A cursory review of Mohler articles on the subject indicates he doesn’t give a fig for sociological studies. Rather, it’s “d*mn the torpedoes and full speed ahead” in encouraging young people to marry despite their financial situation.
The second is related: Mohler calls “deliberate singleness on the part of those who know they have not been given the gift of celibacy is, at best, a neglect of Christian responsibility.” (August 20, 2004) Mohler still held this view as recently as last year when he again extolled marriage over singleness and predicted dire consequences for single women because we do not marry. (October 4, 2013)
In my opinion, this is all part and parcel of Mohler’s patriarchy. Too many single adult women are out from under the protective cover of a male headship. Marriage will take care of that problem, in addition to shutting up a bunch of uppity women who do not properly respect God’s order as expressed through male leadership.
And here’s another thing– Mohler is doing the world no favors by pushing this junk in his columns and at his seminary. He’d be of more use working the overnight shift at the local Circle K, preferably with a female manager. Then he might understand first hand what his teachings can do to the people who follow them.
So there you go–mean.
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@ Julie Anne:
Do you think that commenters need to tone down the language a tad in order to lessen any possible validity to such criticism, or do you think the way things are going is okay? Let me restate that idea for clarity. Do you think that it would make any difference one way or the other how things were said, or is the issue simply that they were said?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I was pretty vague. But actually I did just find a scruffy photo of him on pulpitandpen but I would never pick on someone’s real looks.
I was referring to the wolf photo here on his blog http://thepaperthinhymn.com I didn’t want to draw too much attention to his blog because I think he is trying to get a lot of hits from us. Oops, there I go again making him right about commenters asserting motives of ‘leaders’ and being snarky.
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One wonders if the Tullian Tchividjian is just the start of the flood.
One also wonders if the flood will include the likes of Tim Keller.
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To our readers
No one reads Dustin’s blog. He is using Julie Anne and us to attempt to propel himself into the spotlight. Do not feed the troll.
Any person who would compare our discussion to abortion has lost touch with reality.
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Janet Varin wrote:
Hmm, so the token woman at TGC is the only one with the balls to talk about the SGM case? The manly men who stood with Mahaney won’t say boo about it.. except to scold those who are talking and exposing the truth. The more they talk about “biblical manhood”, the more ridiculous their actions make them look. Real men stand up and defend the defenseless, they don’t plug their ears and close their eyes like Tim Challies (are you STILL convinced that purposefully keeping yourself ignorant about the SGM case is the “discerning” thing to do, Timmy??). I can only hope that the ‘men’ in TGC someday have half the courage and compassion for victims that Wendy Alsup has.
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@ Nancy:
Dustin has made his presence on the Internet known by his over the top comments. He has a habit of going to blogs and causing uproars. He has been successful, once again.
I have decided to deal with him via slow moderation. It will drive him nuts.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Someone needs to get out more. I have been attacked twice, once with a firearm. I didn’t start the fights, but I sure as hell ended them. Grow a pair, buddy. You don’t even know what an attack is.
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@ E.G.:
Problem: Tim Keller was at the 3 day meeting of the TGC Council on which he sits. It is my opinion that these recent actions were discussed and approved behind closed doors.
If Keller stays with this group, he is culpable in that he is sharing in these actions by not speaking up. So, he either approves or stands by them with his silence. I can only hope that he will speak out. Real™ men would do so.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Thank you for the best laugh of the week!
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Nancy wrote:
Nancy, I’m not quite sure I understand what you are asking, but let’s see if this works 🙂
I’m not a fan of squelching free speech. I do, however, believe that we as Christians should use our words thoughtfully and with purpose. For a guy like Dustin and many others like him, we hardly need to use our words to describe them, their words reveal everything.
I think it is important when someone is in a position of leadership and has a set of guidelines they expect others to follow, yet follow their own set of rules for themselves in communication/behavior, it’s good to identify it. Christ’s reputation is on the line.
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dustin germain wrote:
Um, Dustin, its called open conversation. Someone posted how they were feeling. You posted how you were feeling. Not sure if you are aware of this, but out in the “real world” there is no censorship. I’m glad you are able to express yourself here – but that goes for everyone else to. No one is required to agree with anyone else, friend.
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dee wrote:
LOL. I had my “resident artist” 11-yr old son draw me a picture of as SSB doghouse. When we encounter someone like Dustin, they get to visit the doghouse = slow moderation.
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@ Julie Anne:
I am so glad that you used our blog to get this message out. i have a feeling that there are lots of people reading this post due to my predictions for the future of SGM. I bet he reads what you have to say.
Joe Carter had quite a ride this weekend. My guess is that he was prepped to go to war, considering the actions of TGC. BTW, JA, their actions prove that they are beginning to eat their own-something that TWW has been predicting for a long time.
TGC has lost all claim to any particular moral authority. They are the guys who got beat up in the schoolyard and are now doing the same. Do what they say or be gone.
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SeanR wrote:
Good comment.
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@ Julie Anne:
Our motto:
We don’t block. We moderate after we have cooked dinner, let out the dogs, fed the birds, filed our nails and looked at Southern Living.
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Patti wrote:
Good thought.
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@ dee:
Sound good.
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In other news, a certain Doris Long has cemented her place in the Guiness Book of Records as the oldest person to abseil. She celebrated her 100th birthday by abseiling Portsmouth’s 320-foot Spinnaker Tower.
Judging by the foties in the article, her technique today is not as good as it was at 94. But hey.
This news item was brought to you as part of my continued effort to fit in with
🙂 Gaw bless ‘im, as The Simpsons think we say here in Blighty.
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
It was Julie Anne in a flurry of tweets. If you want I can link you to them. That would serve however as an example of attacking and accusing someone without any proof, except on the charge from one Anonymous Concerned Citizen,
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dee wrote:
[emphasis added]
I have used the word culpable more times in the last 10 days in my writings than in perhaps the previous 5 years all together — and that’s actually been a lot, considering how many profiles I’ve written about situations of spiritually abusive and misuse of power.
I wonder if that word will trend, given the multitudinous situations of silence on the Church horizon where much has apparently been talked about in the darkness but may well leak into the light. (Actually, the light might break through onto it, in more cases than not.)
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Patti wrote:
oh, that fotie – yeah, I saw that. I thought that was meant to be a collective picture of us lot!
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SeanR wrote:
Sean, I don’t mean to disabuse you of your theorizing and assumptions, but I do not attend a Baptist Church. I just moved to a new city, but before that I attended a Lutheran Church. Also, I have not always been in the “in crowd” I come from a Roman Catholic Background, and then attended for about 5 years a hyper-charismatic Church that my all measurable standards would be considered a cult, replete with a controlling leader who told me that he doesn’t need to preach from the Bible, as the Holy Spirit speaks to him directly.
I also am concerned about Evangelicals “Top Men” who refuse to respond to legitimately concerned people and who function like a club and protect people in that club who are acting and embroiled in controversy. As to what I read- I read a varying array of blogs and books, many come from reformed sources to varying degrees, but not all of them do.
I deny that “The Gospel Coalition is a group promoting ignorance among conservative evangelicals” though certainly I believe that some people within the organization are behaving in ways that I do not care for or appreciate.
As far as “being able to laugh at the things in my blog post” I don’t think they’re funny. Am I as a Christian supposed to sit back and laugh when someone is being insulted and called vicious names? I don’t think so, and I find it curious that you do.
In any case, if there is anything else about me that you would like to know, please don’t hesitate to ask
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@ Julie Anne:
i don’t mind moderation- feel free to moderate to your hearts content
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E.G. wrote:
No, Tim Keller is co-founder and right at the top. So is D.A. Carson. I’ve met Don several times and it always grieves me to see what he is now responsible for and what he signs his name to (support of C.J. among other things). These men will have a lot to answer for. They have ‘wandered’ from their first love, to echo a comment above.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Hi Dr. People are free to express themselves how they want, sure. But adding the qualifier “this is how I feel” is no excuse to say cruel things or behave irrationally and slander other people. I get that people are passionate, but just as how if I said “This is a rant on how I feel right now…that all the SGM survivors are liars and babies and need to suck it up” that the moderators would rightly rebuke me, ban me, and burn effigies against me. There’d be no excuse for my comments, and there likewise is there no excuse for eagle’s/
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dee wrote:
And then she also wrote:
Hmm… two things.
There’s been some comment traffic, but actually I see no uproar here. I beg to differ over how successful he’s been; in fact, he’s provided a golden opportunity for how dissent-tolerant this community actually is, compared to many who conceal vindictive hearts behind the carefully-chosen, faux gracious language of the trained rhetorician *.
Secondly, Jesus said that we are blessed when people heap insults on us for his name. If the trolls are going to keep flinging blessing around (whatever they themselves think it is) then I don’t mind a bit of it from time to time.
* “Rhetorician” is not actually a word, but it should be. It’s better than “rhetoricist”, which is also not really a word.
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May wrote:
Dibs!!!!
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dee wrote:
I know saying this for the third or fourth time probably won’t make any difference, but I have never suggested that you are personally pro-choice, or that your blog is as evil as planned parenthood, or a host of other similar accusations.
What I have said is that your blog as an organization like planned parenthood IN THAT abortion is only 10% of what they do. they do a lot of other good and noble things for women, and yet they are overwhelmingly known as THE ABORTION GROUP and the symbol for abortion.
Similarly while 90% of what this blog may do is good, your reputation is that you slander and destroy other peoples reputations, and the much of the vitriol on your combox serves as evidence for this.
There is no hint of thinking the best of people, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, or assuming best intentions of fellow believers, but rather any slight or action or even inaction is used as proof of evil intent and nefarious motives, and then that person gets blasted.
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Having been part of an SGM church for several years as a preteen and teen, I can understand how the atmosphere of SGM inspires the “We are all as bad as Morales” and “The perp needs grace too” sentiments. The youth pastor of my ex-church (a Pastors’ College grad) once shared the story of how he and his fellow SGMers decided that, morally, they were no better than Jeffrey Dahmer. When I argued that, while all sins could condemn a person before God, some were definitely more reprehensible than others, I was universally scoffed at (not by the pastor, who is a nice man and still a close friend of my family, but by the other youth who had swallowed all of the “sinny, sin, sin” theology they had been taught). There are only a few short steps between “I am no better than a child abuser” and “The abused should forgive (by pastoral fiat) the abuser and return to ‘fellowship’ with him.”
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Oh, and in further other news, a British pensioner has just built the world’s fastest toilet. I can only assume Colin Furze’s earlier powered toilet did not exceed 70, unlike his mobility scooter.
Rule Britannia!
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Nancy wrote:
May I take a mediating position here, especially in the light of one of Dee’s posts above regarding Dustin versus Eagle?
I found this site during the Strange Fire conference, being tired of discussions and comboxes where anything seriously challenging the ‘correct’ view tended to be suppressed. There is a whole range of opinion here, and this is a great strength. People are free to express themselves very forcibly as well. That, however, is a two-edged sword!
I also think Dee and Deb should be supported and commended for doggedly seeking to expose fierce wolves in the church. This is not really a discernment blog, rather sinful behaviour is primarily in the firing line rather than doctrine (though these are hardly exclusive to each other).
But, and you know that was coming, as a relative outsider some commenters here do get dangerously close to being the mirror image of the very thing they want to criticise. They may well be justified in their criticism, but I think the site is sometimes seriously undermined as an exposure of wrongdoing. Some speculation sounds like accusing the brethren, and we are in spiritual warfare and can be goaded into being OTT ourselves sometimes. Treating the Mahaney family with contempt would be an example. Even if they actually deserve it, saying so isn’t wise, is it?
Specifically Eagle’s comment quoted by Dustin is a classic example. Invoking the Third Reich, Joseph Göbbels, and comparing the actions of TGC leaders to those who carried out the holocaust is way, way, way over the top and does not impart grace to those who hear. It also debases an unimaginable level of suffering. OK he admits he is venting his feelings, but then talks about ‘they have lost touch with decency’. Dustin may be no better, but surely six of one and half a dozen of the other should be avoided.
My somewhat laid back complementarianism was compared by Eagle on one occasion to the taliban, and I would repeat what I said in response – ‘tone down the rhetoric’.
He may or may not have an inspiring testimony, I don’t know as I haven’t seen it yet! But the sort of comment he made above only needs to be shown to a leader in a church covering up abuse and defending dishonest leadership, and the exposé of evil will be conveniently forgotten and ill-advised comments remembered.
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Nancy wrote:
I think it would help the issue. Speaking as a “troll” It would remove 90% of my objections to this site
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dee wrote:
See previous comments. Nothing I said is a commentary on your pro-life commitments.
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I suppose I should say “near-universally scoffed at.”
Pingback: LINKS! | PhoenixPreacher
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dee wrote:
Good article on the neo-Cal movement including the following about the tribalism of it:
To be sure, neo-calvinists don’t shy away from controversy and aren’t reticent to critique those outside of the movement. (One might refer to some Calvinist’s blistering responses to Donald Miller’s announcement that he doesn’t attend church.) Yet these same leaders are often resistant, delayed, and then tempered with their critiques of other Calvinists who seem to stray.
An illuminating example of this might be the recent glut of Mark Driscoll controversies—from sexist comments to charges of plagiarism to proof that he bought his way onto the New York Times bestsellers list using ministry monies. Leaders in the movement were effectively mum until a select few broke the silence of late. The first accusations of Driscoll plagiarizing were revealed on November 21st, but the first truly critical response posted by neo-Calvinist mega-blog, The Gospel Coalition, trickles out on December 18th. One might compare this with the response to Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins” that was in full bloom before the YouTube trailer finished buffering.
Even those who were brave enough to critique Driscoll were mostly moderate. And several Calvinists told me off-the-record that many who offered full-throated criticisms of Driscoll—like Carl Trueman of Westminster Theological Seminary—have been relegated to the margins as a result.
http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2014/05/20/troubling-trends-americas-calvinist-revival/
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Julie Anne wrote:
Can anyone else access this. I’m having trouble . . . says page doesn’t exist? Could be me though since I don’t have a Twitter account.
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@ JeffT:
Good article by Jonathan Merrits. But I can’t agree with this sentence: “so Calvinists spur us on with their intellectual rigor.” Evidence please??
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SeanR wrote:
i.e. “The Lure of the Inner Ring.” — C.S.Lewis
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
Now that I Got Mine…”
— Glenn Frye
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JeffT wrote:
Purged from The Party.
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In some charismatic and Pentecostal circles, controversial pastors or their supporters frequently responded to critics with something along the lines of “Touch not Mine anointed.” It appears TGC, SGM, CLC and their supporters are simply following in those footsteps.
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singleman wrote:
It’s also called “Divine Right to Rule.”
The Christianized loophole to sneak in “The King is A GOD! All Bow and Worship MEEEEEEE!”
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May wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
Purity of Ideology.
(May, Dee, everybody: When the jokes and analogies to the Soviet System and its derivations in the works by G.Orwell come so easily, that is NOT something for these MenaGawd to brag about.)
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dee wrote:
You may, unfortunately, be correct.
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@ Nancy:
Not only choosing bad associates, but aggressively defending them by calling those who question bad names and alleging that the questioners are not Christians.
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May wrote:
All I know about Carson, other than hearing him speak a couple of times, is the amount of disruption and dissent that some of his followers caused in a local church that I was affiliated with.
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Great new post by Jonathan Merritt on this general topic: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2014/05/20/troubling-trends-americas-calvinist-revival/
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burnrnorton wrote:
Man, I wish I had saved the two comments I made under this blog! Because they were in moderation and now they are gone. Sigh.
I basically said that true consent is enthusiastic and continuous. The moment a person objects, and that objection is ignored, it’s rape, Period.
I also shared a comment in which I stated that as someone with a very, very traumatic history, my road to healing has been complicated and complex. And that the best thing a person can do when a victim opens up is to listen, not saying anything or say, “I’m so so sorry. This was NOT your fault.”
Perhaps this comment sounded too feminist? I don’t know.
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I was in some of that Twitter exchange on Sunday night with Joe Carter initially claiming that Mahaney and Harris were not on the council. To be the senior editor of the TGC, he sure is inept at his job. After he checked with “someone” and corrected his earlier denials, he tried to excuse his error, saying, “I don’t really keep up with the council.” I replied to him and pointed out the fact that Mahaney is listed as a speaker at The Gospel Coalition Arizona conference in June. It’s listed as an event on TGC homepage: http://arizona.thegospelcoalition.org/events/event/9/anchored-conference/2014-06-20
Joe Carter’s reply about Mahaney speaking was that “Regional chapters/conferences are independent entities.” (sound familiar? Local, Baptist autonomous polity ring a bell?https://twitter.com/joecarter/status/468201477249331200
So CJ is no longer on the council, but he’s still one of TGC speakers?
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May wrote:
That’s one of the really weird things about the movement. There are some very intellectually rigorous such as D.A. Carson, Carl Trueman, John Frame, etc. but there are a majority, like Driscoll, who have no intellectual component and make stuff up by pulling doctrine out of their arse.
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dee wrote:
You do not need me to say this, but NONE OF THE REGULAR COMMENTERS AT TWW HAVE ANYTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR. Everyone carry on and keep being who you are. The “Young, Restless, and Reformed” are a disgrace. One great thing about my small, boring, and backwards denomination (though we try to market ourselves as anything but) is that it is not cool enough to have attracted too many of the “Young, Restless, and Reformed.” Personally, I don’t want people like Dustin to even worship with us, let alone have any platform at all within my church. Dustin, God bless you, but please stay away from normal churches and normal Christians, until you are prepared to become one.
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Amy Smith wrote:
Well said. Most of us have already come to the conclusion that Joe Carter is a graceless bully, but it is almost laughable how inept he is. And he is the official spokesman for TGC? They deserve each other.
Four types of people in this world:
1. Talented and humble.
2. Talented and proud.
3. Mediocre and humble.
4. Mediocre and proud.
The fourth type are insufferable.
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@ Dr. Fundystan:
In fairness to Dustin, I think he quoted this from Eagle and didn’t say it himself. Your point still stands, however.
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dee wrote:
Sobering, but hard to argue with.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I had to look up abseiling. We call it rappelling here in the Colonies. Thanks for teaching me a new word!
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@ An Attorney:
Yes. Precisely.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
In Scientologese, Suppressive Person Declares have been issued on the official goldenrod paper, but the SP isn’t allowed to see the Declare. Instead he is given to believe that he is a degraded and aberrated person whose only terminal (avenue for recourse) is the International Justice Chief.
My only question is, who has the ability to “un”farewell a person in Calvinista circles.
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__
“The SGM Legend Dissssss-Con-tin-ued?”
huh?
The SGM “Code Of Silence” has been broken.
hmmm…
…soon you will be able to pass a speeding red Peterbilt through it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrlXBpatQcE
http://www.peterbilt.com/
—
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mirele wrote:
Indeed – neither of us has an English word for it, tbh, because “abseiling” comes from the German abseilen (to lower by rope), whereas “rappelling” comes from the French rappeler (to call back).
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have this image of the TGC honchos assembled at the clubhouse with Tullian Tchividjian paraded in front of them while his TGC lapel button is ripped from his suit, his TGC-imprinted pen is broken over a knee and Tchividjian is sent with a drum roll through their ranks to the exit, then change the secret handshake.
Either that or the scene from Mary Poppins where the father is dismissed from the bank.
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@ dee:
Dee you will have to forgive me, I had to go take a peak. All I can say is “unreal”. This guy created a blog post, and did the exact same thing he accused you of doing. I sure hope he at least gets a Christmas card for Al Mohler.
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@ JeffT:
P.S. There’s a sign on the door of the clubhouse that reads “NO GIRLZ ALOUD”
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1 comment removed at reader’s request.
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@ JeffT:
I agree with you re Carson and Trueman – haven’t read any of Frame. But that’s a small fraction, as you say, of the hoards of men that are held up as wise people to follow – lightweights like Challies and deYoung. Piper can’t write for toffee and is constantly getting into knots with his crackpot theology. Yet he’s held up as a paragon of a theologian. Any theological movement will have its heavyweights – I just feel that in this one they’re pretty thin on the ground – and in fact, if anything, New Calvinism has been characterised by strident anti-intellectualism (a la don’t you dare debate, leave a critical or questioning comment or engage with what I’m saying: just follow blindly). So I can’t agree with Merritt’s comment.
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@ Raymond:
Forgiven. We have a saying in the South “Bless his little heart.” Poor guy, he so wants to be recognized.
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JeffT wrote:
Thank you for making me laugh.
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pcapastor wrote:
Pretty sobering, isn’t it?
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG-This story is made for your comments! You are pretty smart so this comment is for you. They plan to bury Mahaney just like they originally buried Madam Krupskaya.
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Interesting point made over at SGMSurvivors that got me thinking.
I had always thought that C.J. would be pretty p***ed off that CLC opted to leave SGM. Original, flagship SGM church, he was pastor there for 27 years, etc. But now I’m wondering if in fact he wanted, orchestrated the whole thing. How convenient is it for him now not to be associated with the church, and for the church not to be under SGM? Even more conveniently, he lives thousands of miles away.
I’m starting to feel a tad sorry for Joshua Harris who I believe has been manipulated and cowed by C.J. for decades.
C.J. is as slippery as an eel. He reminds me of Gerry Adams. Everyone knows he’s guilty but no one can pin him down. What gets me is how the Calvinist BigDogs can’t see through him. I’ll have to add discernment to the list of godly qualities that are so sorely lacking (along with love and compassion).
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Ken wrote:
You need to place the blame for this at my feet. I have a policy. The church has protected itself from the real feelings of people for many years. They want people to say it in a manner that is pleasing and acceptable.
I want to hear the truth. I allow people to call us names and insult us. I want to hear the truth, or what people believe to be the truth, in all of its unvarnished manner. I accept people where they are and how they feel. The only thing that I will not allow is threats of violence, lawsuits or outright lies.
This is one place that you can come where you won’t be told you are not accepted because you don’t say it “right.”
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@ May:
I agree with you on that. The intellectual rigor that exists among the scholarly few in that crowd has definitely left very little imprint on the rest of the bunch.
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dee wrote:
That is so true!!!! The youngish associate pastor of my former church (reformed) is a major kiss up to all the gospel (TM) boys…non-stop tweeting flattery and quoting of Dr. Mohler’s brilliant books. And his own youngish protegees make sure all of their defense and flattery of their own leadership gets cc’d back to leadership, just so they know who’s loyal. Dustin, are you making sure your “leaders” see your performance?
Pingback: The Gospel Coalition ShakeUp – Tullian Tchividjian and Too Much Grace for The Gospel Coalition? | Spiritual Sounding Board
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I wonder will Piper and Grudem et al continue to line up to speak at SGM Louisville??
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Janet Varin wrote:
If not, Dustin, you can always brown your nose by informing on Traitors and Thought-Criminals. Your Leaders will always want to know just WHO is Plotting Against Them. Just go to your Leadership and start pointing fingers until you are the only one who isn’t Plotting Against Them.
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mirele wrote:
Has Directive R2-45 LRH been invoked by Flag yet?
Or disappearance into RPF and/or formal Overboarding?
In any case, Fair Game Law is now in effect and the GO is eager to enforce.
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This is so sad. So terribly sad. I can’t imagine how God must have grieved over the deception and corruption over the past few decades. (Heck, since He made man kind.)
I look forward to His return or our home-going, when this will all be over.
Dee and Deb and all those who are speaking out, please, do not lose hope. Do not grow weary in doing good. There will come a day (whether here or on the other side) when we will see God’s truth revealed. But when, God? When? Please, God, give us the grace and strength to continue.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
More assumptions on your part. I have no “leaders” who are aware of me, or who i am posturing for.
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Someone should take a screen-shot of the page that this links to:
http://www.sgclouisville.org/guest-speakers
I would but I don’t know how to. Mind you, it’s not a page that’s likely to disappear if C.J. can help it.
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Sara wrote:
Looks like my comments did make it through moderation at the TGC article, for which i am grateful. Few things make a survivor feel worse than being silenced. That’s why I am so so grateful for this blog. Thank you for giving so many of us a chance to make our voices heard.
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pcapastor wrote:
I always used to think the fourth type were Jehovah’s Witnesses. (The ones I’ve met and spoken to at any length have all manifested what can only be described as out-and-out bigotry.)
Then I discovered Fiscal.
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@ dee:
I must be way further south than you, cause down here we say. “This guy needs and old fashion southern *** whipping. Don’t print this Dee, this was just for you.
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@ Jeannie E. Hess:
This website and its constituents are completely bonkers. Your platform could be described as feminism disguised as Christianity. Glad your site doesn’t attract much visitors…when bitterness takes root, sites like TWW come into being. Joe Carter aptly described you both as character assassins. There’s a difference between airing dirty laundry and transparency. TWW has been doing the former in spades. Great job!
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Dee: ‘TGC posted a puff piece on Carolyn Mahaney’s new book True Beauty. This action appeared to demonstrate a lack of concern for the seriousness of the abuse charges.’
And I thought the British were experts in understatement! Given the circumstances the Carolyn Mahaney piece is unbelievably crass in the current context. It’s almost a dark sitcom parody subplot but … but… oh no.. I can’t…. it’s for real!
Having read the exchange with Joe Carter I can’t believe how inept he is being for someone representing an organisation. Honestly Joe, if you read this, which you should, go into a dark room sit there and think… think …. think….think… and then you will see what fools you are making of yourselves and of the Gospel.
And oh yes – of course we should use the internet to speak out. I imagine if Martin Luther had access to it he would have been the first to post / twitter/ facebook his criticism of corrupt church leadership, the lies and the hypocrisy that brings the Church into disrepute.
And yes … CJ …. he wouldn’t have had a cosy chat with you to help be sensitive to your non-verbal communication (see his video) – he would have nailed his comments on the doors of your church.
Keep it up Wartburg Watch….
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Nancy wrote:
Nancy, I only know for myself how horribly slammed I was on blogs that I knew nothing about when I was first looking for help when my daughter was getting involved with SGM. For instance I ended up on a Russell Moore blog. I had no idea who I was dealing with. I was answering very politely and sincerely and I thought that his public post was sincere. He had put forth a question from a young pastor who was married to an egalitarian yet he himself was complementarian and he was wondering if he could actually pastor a church when his own marriage had this disagreement in it. I thought I had some really good ideas for him. Now remember I had no idea that Russell Moore was a staunch comp. I could not believe how horribly rude the commenters on that blog became with me. The way they treated me certainly had no basis on just how I said anything. They were ferocious and Russell Moore said nothing. It never made sense yo me until later finding out who all those comp leaders were.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Grr, it was removed. How do we find it again?
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I will say one thing for CJ; he has good hair.
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@ Patti:
That is a good example for the question I was asking. I am sorry that happened to you. The religiously ultra-correct are impossible, especially when they are in the wrong it seems.
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Does anyone have a screenshot of the Christian Post article just taken down, about Tullian calling out TGC? The links I’ve tried don’t work.
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Bradfuturist guy:
I am not certain why the defense attorney would elicit this testimony from Layman. It seems irrelevant to the prosecution of Morales. Here are some possibilities – all of which seem far fetched to me:
1. Defense Counsel was probing whether a confession was made and use that for sympathy at some point (e.g. Morales was seeking help? Perhaps? In the sentencing phase.
2. To deflect or create shared responsibility from his client onto others for later molestations?
3. Morales hates the CLC guys and instructed his lawyer to obtain such an admission.
4. To probe the truthfulness of the allegations? After all, if a person doesn’t report to the police maybe it’s because he doesn’t believe the allegations.
5. Does Morales want his victims to get a financial settlement from CLC and others and he is helping to lay the groundwork for that?
That’s the best I can do on guessing. I have to confess to ask that question makes no sense in the context of this criminal trial.
As to the effect of the answer, for Layman, it could be huge. Layman may have just admitted under oath that he broke the law for which he can be punished.
If the reporting statute in Maryland has criminal penalties for failing to report and the statute of limitations has not run, then Layman just admitted in court to committing a crime for which he can be punished.
On the “conspiracy” end, I am not as clear. An Attorney mentioned that above and said that he doesn’t believe Layman and the others intended to foster child abuse by failing to report. I agree with him. My understanding, however, is that engagning in a conspiracy usually requires intent. I don’t think that Layman and the others wanted Morales to go out and commit some more crimes. I think they wanted to do things “biblically” and their warped understanding of that took them down a horrible road. I also think that since 2007 on, they were concerned for their own skin, and it had nothing to do with being “biblical.”
Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth.
@ brad/futuristguy:
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erik wrote:
I don’t know how long it is going to last, but here you go.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-blasts-sovereign-grace-ministries-handling-of-sex-abuse-scandal-prematurely-departs-the-gospel-coalition-120062/
I saved the cached page to my Evernote.
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Thank you Mirele! I also just saw that Julie has it available on the Spiritual Sounding Board Facebook page.
“Give me a break. These people, they’re family. Of course he knew,” Tchividjian told The Christian Post. “C. J. was, for many years, the micro-managing head of the organization and nothing happened under the umbrella of Sovereign Grace that he wasn’t made aware of, so for anyone to say, ‘Well he didn’t know,’ that’s totally naive.”
Tchividjian added that he was “pretty disturbed” when Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor published a statement on TGC website in May 2013 which defended Mahaney, saying that it looked “like the good-old boys club covering their own.”
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Erik wrote:
That’s the key right there. Everyone knows C.J. was/is a micromanager and there’s no way he would not know about the child abuse. It would be totally out of character for him not to know. I’m thinking of another sign right now:
C.J. KNEW
ABOUT THE
CHILD ABUSE
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@ Deb:
Reminds me of the Coneheads on old SNL way back in the day.
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It will be interesting to see how much there is to this. Is Trueman not being asked to join in any neo-Cal Reindeer Games anymore?
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Two words: PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
Traditional foundation of Russian/Soviet Bureaucracy: If it wasn’t written down, It Never Happened and You Can’t Ever Prove It Did.
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JeffT wrote:
He has been Purged from The Party.
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jackleeknows wrote:
doubleplusgoodthink, comrade!
doubleplusgood doubleplusduckspeak!
pat on the head and cookie from CJ himself!
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With all the silence and cover-up of sexual abuse, the calls to reduce women to perpetual servitude, the vitriol directed at those those who attempt to call them to account, the disappearance of embarrassing information from the Internet without comment, and the excommunication and/or marginalization of insiders who disagree, a world ruled by the neo-Cals would be as cold, heartless, and frightening as any dystopian novel ever written. {shudder} Thank God for the First Amendment.
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@ Eagle:
@ dustin germain:
@ dee:
@ Ken:
Okay – generally, I think the use of calling people ‘Nazis’ is overused and over-the-top. Here’s why I don’t think that is true in this case. (I just spent an entire weekend immersed in WWII history, so….)
This is absolutely true. They have elevated a specific sub-doctrine above all things. It does not matter what you do – what crimes against humanity you commit (and child sex abuse is a crime against all humanity) or cover up – if your Doctrine™ is the correct one and you stay lock-step (goose-step? sorry…), then you will be defended and the propaganda machine will be in full swing on your behalf.
I have had up close and personal experience with this tactic, as have many on the blog. It is my opinion that some of these people, if given the platform to rise to the level of power and authority to do so, would behave in the same fashion as any other tyrant you would care to name in history. They have already proven a willingness to sacrifice the ‘weak’ and purge the ‘impure.’
As to the comparison to Joseph Goebbels…teach them what to say, what to read, who to associate with, what to think…do this when they are young and impressionable, and when they grow up they will be your propaganda fodder, spreading the lie with zeal. Hmmm…a very ugly twist on ‘teach your children the way they should go, and when they are old…..” And that is what we have with this group…they have had a generation or two to groom the young ones. Those that don’t revolt and flee often become more rabid than the teachers. And it really becomes more about saying the right things at the right time and quoting (as HUG would say 🙂 )’the Party Line’ than being about Jesus.
Yeah….I have seen this in action. You see, the followers will imitate the leaders to curry favor – to get noticed. And become just as morally bankrupt. Just as much as the brood of vipers in Palestine 2000 years ago….
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jackleeknows wrote:
Oh no, not feminism! Next thing you know, Owen Stracham Wil be accusing us of heresy, just like Rachel Held Evans who one time referred to God as “herself”.
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@ Anonymous:
My bet as an attorney who never practiced criminal law I’d he was trying to elicit testimony that the Layman hadn’t found the allegations credible or that they didn’t meet the standard of criminal action. Pretty stupid, but you have the case you have.
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@ dustin germain:
Justin, your statement “your reputation is that you slander and destroy other peoples reputations” means that neither you nor those with you obvious level in inadequacy in education knows what “slander” means. First off, it has to be false, and nothing posted here can be proved to be false.
Second, it has to be about fact, and not an opinion. “I think you are an imbecile.” is not slander but “You are not among the elect.” may be, depending on whether the stated fact is true or false.
Third, it has to harm someone, e.g., damaging their reputation in a provable way. The people subject to criticism here do more to damage their own reputation than do the Deebs or the other commenters here. Some examples: You, the people at TGC who endorse those who hide sexual abuse, thereby enabling the abuser to abuse more children. Caner. SGM pastors. Dominionists. Ham.
Christians should observe the Jewish dietary laws in one respect, they should not swallow Ham.
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“Bless his little heart.” is a very strong insult to the person to which this refers. A normal heart is a good thing. A “big-hearted” person seems to be one who carries out the second commandment Jesus gave us, to love and to share with those in need. But a person with a little heart — suggests a lack of caring or compassion and a need to psychological or psychiatric heart therapy. In some instances, it could mean someone is not brave but chicken, as in “chicken-hearted, which for a human is a tiny little heart — flutters and clucks and flees.
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jackleeknows wrote:
I guess that means a Jezebel spirit? Since when did supporting victims of clergy sexual abuse become feminism? Evil should be called out for what it is. Rather than support the victims, you want to support the status quo. Real men know how to apologize when they are wrong!
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@ Stunned:
Thank you 4 ur encouragement here, it means a great deal to me!
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Tired wrote:
Anything that isn’t propping up male supremacy and hiding the sins of patriarchy is considered feminism to these people. Victims of clergy sexual abuse are simply viewed as unfortunate but sometimes unavoidable collateral damage in the war against evil feminism. Better to have a few victims of sexual abuse swept under the rug than to deal with a pack of uppity women who have the gall to believe that they are equal to men.
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I don’t agree with everything Tullian teaches, but I have to respect him for saying his peace about SGM. I’m wondering if TGC caught wind that the article was being printed and that is part of what drove the quick boot of fellowship? They’ve been sticking up for CJ nonstop.
Tullian also mentioned in the article that he was told by a friend on TGC that men at TGC had been discussing him for a year, but no one had said anything to him regarding his wtiting. I guess it’s okay for the men at TGC to gossip then?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m hoping TGC and its fanbois understand that being compared to the unpersoning of people in the Soviet Union and in Scientology is not a good thing. Really, not something to aspire to or emulate *at all*.
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jackleeknows wrote:
I am overcome by the depth of thoughtfulness and strength of intellect in your poignant comment.
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jackleeknows:
Uhhhh…I don’t know you, but have you ever heard the phrase, it takes one to know one? Looks like it fits here. I bet that you’ve never read the book of Romans, either.
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jackleeknows wrote:
Oh my goodness, you are calling us feminists! Well yes, we believe that women deserve equal social, economic, and political rights. Don’t you or do you actually think that women deserve to be discriminated against? Can you cite any Scripture where Jesus mistreated or disrespected women or treated them as inferior to men? I can’t find any. Perhaps you believe that Jesus died to save men and women just get in on their husband’s, father’s or older brother’s ticket?
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Bridget wrote:
This all feels a bit like the conservative takeover of the sbc some years ago…what I find interesting is that you have arguably the biggest dog in the pca on the counsel (and a founder) in keller, and another pca pastor gets the boot? If he was too far off the reservation, should he even be allowed to remain a pca pastor? Seems like tgc might be trumping denominational lines…
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dustin germain wrote:
The person I spoke with regarding Sproul, Jr. revealed their identity to me. I was able to easily verify this person’s identity due to pictures/videos online.
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jackleeknows wrote:
Constituents? Platform? Deebs, are you gals running for public office or something?
Sir, might I suggest you spend some quality time with Mr. Strunk and Mr. White?
Sites like TWW have come into being because of false shepherds.
Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them. They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered. My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill; My flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them.”’”
Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: “As I live,” declares the Lord God, “surely because My flock has become a prey, My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock; therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.”’” ~ Ezekiel 34:1-10
Ad hominem is the last resort of people who don’t have the facts on their side.
Why is it that when church leaders publicly expose the sins of congregants it’s called “holding brothers accountable to the word of God”, but when congregants publicly expose the sins of church leaders it’s called “airing dirty laundry”?
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Nickname wrote:
Thank you for your wise words of caution. I hope that everyone reading here takes them to heart.
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dustin germain wrote:
Grow up, laddie.
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JeffT wrote:
Well, of course, they wouldn’t. They probably wouldn’t even be surprised.
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jackleeknows wrote:
Can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I’m a feminist and proud of it.
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Spoken like a Wartburg-ette. Going waaaaay overboard with that passage in Ezekiel. Really? TWW is because of false shepherds? lol. wow… I would strongly suggest you listen to yourself. GOD is the judge. Not TWW. Or you. Or me. The heart is deceitful above all else. Not my words, God’s truth.
As for having no facts on my side — this BLOG is my exhibit A, your honor. B I T T E R R O O T. Listen…our discernment is not 100% but accusing and calling out virtually everything and everyone in the Evangelical world is not doing any good. TWW is the site that cried wolf too many times that most of us in reformed cirlces just shake our heads at TWW and their “e-Church.” E-church…really? (can you see me shaking my head — wait, I’m doing it again for dramatic effect).
G’night and goodbye.
Jenny wrote:
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jackleeknows wrote:
Wow. Feminism. Think of that!
Seriously, though: I’m a man, but if thinking that women have been given the same rights and equal voices by God (in the church) and by the various constitutions in free countries means I’m a feminist, I’m proud to be one.
If thinking that women have equal social, economic, and political rights, and that anyone withholding those rights from them actually is in the violation of their constitutional rights, if that means I’m a feminist, then I’m proud to be one.
Feminism does have its loony fringe, but then so does christianity: quiverfull, patriarchy, the Dougs (Wilson and Philips) are only different from many complementarians be degree (and not by much).
And if one complementarian theologian (IIRC Grudem) complains that many christian couples, while they call themselves complementarians, actually leve egalitarian lives, where is the difference? What am I as a husband to do? Tell all the women in my life (wife, daughter( that from today onward, they are to submit to me, heed my pronouncements and follow them to the letter?
Evangelical culture suffers from a huge amount of silliness, and the fact that no one can be silly enough, extreme enough, that they won’t have some defenders who call this “biblical”. Consequence: zero credibility.
And don’t even get me started about celebrity pastors – the entertainment business with extra portions of gaudiness. Consequence: zero credibility.
Evangelical “leaders” are very ready to denounce sin in everyone else, but if someone is credibly accused of covering child abuse, after having been proven a blackmailer to get rid of a co-pastor, they circle the wagons. Consequence: zero credibility.
For the Christ’s church to live, this “church” has to die.
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@ JeffT:
Now you’ve reminded me of Calvin, the little blond tyke with a tiger, not the dead theologian:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iRE1f7T37Zk/TU-5oC0SsXI/AAAAAAAAAWU/dLEaih26TR0/s1600/9a.+Slimy+Girls.gif
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Anonymous wrote:
When I read that it was Morales’ Defense Attorney that elicited Layman’s admission under oath that he knew all about Morales, what he had done, but then failed to report it to law enforcement, thought the same thing, so on this point I would agree – that he asked Layman those questions because he knew that if Layman and those together with him within CLC had acted appropriately, Nate Morales would have been exposed and prosecuted back then, and prevented from committing further crimes.
Clearly, Layman & CLC enabled Morales and set him free. They didn’t serve him, they didn’t serve the victims, they didn’t serve their families, and they didn’t serve the congregation of CLC. The men & women in the know and in control in the church were serving themselves.
This, I think, is what continues to drive all this talk and discussion: the knowledge that we have that the leaders of that thing (CLC) were liars. They were lying through their teeth while presuming the role of truth-tellers, purveyors of the Gospel, messengers of the Good News. And as they stood there in positions of assumed “spiritual authority” talking about how humble they were and emphasizing the importance of submission to leadership (“you need to be a joy to pastor”), insisting members go to them with all their troubles & cares, pretending as they did to be serving the Lord, we come to find out none of this was true.
If these people had honestly messed up and felt convicted, they would have moved to come clean long ago. There’s been so much time that has transpired now since 2007, for instance, and coincidentally the year the blog SGM Survivors (then SGuncensored) in which these people, men & women included, could have acted in ways in keeping with the commandments of God.
Instead, what have we witnessed? We’ve witnessed a steady denial of all wrongdoing. We’ve witnessed them take the position against us who have worked to expose them, telling others that all their detractors are gossips and evil. I could go on. While we’ve been involved in exposing the truth, they’ve been involved in opposing the truth. They are anti-Christian. They’ve had plenty of time to prove otherwise and have failed.
The whole business needs to be shut down. People need to realize it’s not a church, and that aren’t preaching the gospel. Anyone remaining attached to them is part of the problem and not part of the solution. Sad the depth of deception that resides in the minds and hearts of so many. I now realize how many of these people who “seemed to be something” weren’t true believers. Their belief was limited to the cult, which they were followers of, over and above the Lord and His Word. All of us need to be very careful in believing. Not all who claim to be Christians are. Test the spirits.
And lastly, many people were praying for the trial. God could easily have worked to move Morales’ Defense Attorney to grill Layman with those questions. The Attorney knows what went down. He saw the opportunity he had to put the whole thing in perspective and to implicate Covenant Life Church and Layman’s involvement in their efforts to cover-up what Morales had done. He knew they also broke the law, and did so with malicious intent. Who writes a letter for a Church saying they didn’t know when the truth is they knew? Corrupt men. False Shepherds. That’s who.
This wasn’t just a little “oops” moment, it was a answer to prayer. We have the Defense Attorney, who was an instrument of righteousness, to thank and thank God for.
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@ gus:
What a really great statement!!!!
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Nancy wrote:
Belated response to a very good question.
I don’t think there’s one simple answer to this, for which, please accept an apology in advance for a longish comment…
If you rebuke a fool (in the Proverbs sense of the word) he will hate you, full stop; there is no way to challenge a person like that without his exploding at you. I’ve read fairly extensively round the topic of Petrie and Meyer’s expulsion from Mars Hill, for instance, and I can’t find any evidence anywhere that either of them said or did anything inflammatory. Yet Fiscal labelled them as such, lashed out at them with every ounce of political power he had, and didn’t stop until any vestige of standing or influence they had within the company was destroyed. We are to have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but rather expose them, in the full knowledge that it will inevitably cost us.
At another extreme on the rim of the circle are the trolls: the people who post under multiple aliases and whose only interest is in stirring up mischief for their own amusement. They may not even know what TWW actually stands for, much less care, and TWW probably isn’t the only site they spam. The well-known rule is, don’t feed them. I’m not sure what “Jack Lee knows”, I must say.
Then it gets complicated, though. Let’s suppose, for a minute, that our friend Dustin is genuine: he has found peace and rest in the reformed traditions. It’s natural that he’d describe them as “great”. This site, however, inevitably focuses a painful spotlight on some of the public heroes of those reformed traditions. I think any of us would take that personally, because we’d feel it personally. As Patti ably pointed out, no tradition, reformed or otherwise, can truly give us peace or rest – only Jesus can do that. Traditions only give us something to identify with, and the “peace and rest” Dustin has found cannot possibly be real. So it can’t protect him either; he has to protect it. I’m not, of course, offering any “psychoanalysis” there, because all of that is generically true of human beings, me included.
To come back, finally, to the question: yes, occasionally I think we do make accusations here which go beyond the evidence we have. And occasionally, when we do have evidence, we push it home using over-the-top language. And sometimes, when new commenters have come along and asked us to tone it down without actually disagreeing with us, we have not welcomed them graciously. But then, some regulars here have spent years on the receiving end of the nastiest personal attacks possible, in settings where they had no chance to fight back or defend themselves.
I hesitate over the word “victims” because there’s always something slightly demeaning about it, IMHO, but TWW is about giving a voice to the voiceless. It would be selfish and unjust to expect the voiceless to have only nice, comfortable things to say. Anyone posting here has to bear that in mind.
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@ gus:
Hear, hear!
Complementarianism becomes an easy subterfuge for individuals like Betsy Ricucci, Carolyn Mahaney, Nancy Loftness, Denise Griney, Valerie Maresco, Karin Layman et al to hide behind. “We’re just all poor women, unequal in responsibility to that of the men whom we follow & obey. Even though we knew, we don’t have minds of our own, and only act when our husband’s give us permission to. We knew our husband’s covered up a lot of things, but we knew and used that information to become vigilant ourselves, acting, as we did, as though our vigilance was something proceeding from our superior parenting skills when it fact it developed as a result of what we were told, but then withheld that information from others who had the right to know as well. But we used all the information we gathered to beef up the lordship we exercised together with our husband, acting as we did, on the basis of the knowledge we obtained but hoarded, that we were somehow more righteous. We know others would have benefitted from knowing what we knew, especially about Nate Morales, but knowing made us stronger and gave us the leverage we needed to be in control. Plus, we liked knowing everybody’s secrets. It made us feel special as those on the Inside, with “insider” information.”
Complementarianism will not be a valid defense for any of these women before God. Perhaps it would be if there was any truth in it, but as you say, men and women are equal, and equally responsible to report to the police criminal activity.
Grant Layman is always referred to as “CJ’s brother in law.” I suggest we start saying “Grant Layman, Carolyn Mahaney’s brother.”
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Awesome comment. I especially like the part I quoted 🙂
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Am I the only one who thinks that the parents of the children have some responsibility here? I mean I’m glad that the pervert finally got convicted and I hope that SGM gets sued into non-existence. But, if the parents didn’t go to the authorities because leadership at the church said not to – then aren’t they part of the conspiracy?
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@ Melissatheragamuffin:
They were taught by those “pastors” that doing anything against the directive of the “pastor” was to defy GOD himself. And that would the the sin of all sins, denying GOD’s authority. You have to dig into the mindset created by these “pastors”. I put in the quote marks here because these were really wolves.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Good thoughtful analysis. I wish it were more simple than that, but I believe you are absolutely correct.
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jackleeknows wrote:
Ummmmm . . . immature much?
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Acg116 wrote:
From what I read (I was not there) the church that Tullian started was evangelical presbyterian. They then merged with Coral Ridge (PCA) and at the time there was some sort of dust up about the level of influence of the smaller group and its people. So, maybe Tullian and Keller are not, at heart, the same kind of presbyterian on some issues which TCG deems crucial. Like the current issues concerning the relationship of grace and law in which Tullian leans toward grace more than the rest of that bunch. It seems to be that that they think that unless law is seen to trump grace then the whole hyper-authoritarian system would crumble, especially for the ecclesiastical elite. It seems also like their understanding of the genesis origins stories requires the curse to trump the promise, even after fulfillment of the promise, or the same hyper-authoritarianism would go up in smoke for males in general. If you thought that hyper-authoritarianism was your hill on which to die, you sure would not want somebody on the level of Tullian hanging around shooting your ideas down.
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Nancy wrote:
Sounds plausible. As for keller, I hope you’re right..,
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Melissatheragamuffin wrote:
You are not the only one. I am with you on that.
What I really cannot understand is why, in the face of a primitive and strong biological urge to protect the young of the species, some parents still do not do it? What can they thinking/wanting that supersedes biology itself? Reminds me of some of the ancient Israelites who took up child sacrifice to Moloch and how God reacted to that. Reminds me of some form of worship of the leaders perhaps bordering on similar idolatry, for something to be strong enough for parents to fail their children this miserably.
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dustin germain wrote:
Yet, you wrote a post accusing TWW of discussing this issue. Which serves as an example of YOU “attacking and accusing someone without any proof.” Your journalistic skills are lacking. You have zero credibility.
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@ Nancy:
Let me clarify. Not knowing on one thing, with the exception of willful ignorance. Knowing and then doing nothing is entirely different.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thank you.
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Christian Post article appears to be back up this morning as of 5:49 am.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-blasts-sovereign-grace-ministries-handling-of-sex-abuse-scandal-prematurely-departs-the-gospel-coalition-120062/
Am checking old version that disappeared yesterday with this version. If there are any differences, I’ll note them in the reply comment to this one …
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An Attorney wrote:
Great comment.
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Melissatheragamuffin wrote:
One must take into account the influence of the church and its teachings on individuals. If one has been taught that the church is the ultimate authority and that the pastors are in authority over you, one might find it difficult to go against the advice of the pastor.
This sort of teaching has been part and parcel of the authoritarian movement seen in today’s churches. It is dangerous, very dangerous.
People are waking up to the serious flaws and heresies involved in such teachings and are extricating themselves, often teams after decades, from these churches. It is a difficult process.
I commend the many folks of have stood up an walked away from this nonsense, often at great personal sacrifice.
And, times have changed. Today, most people would tell such pastors which lake to jump in and report it.
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@ brad/futuristguy:
So, do you ever sleep????
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Melissatheragamuffin wrote:
Hey Melissa,
Few thoughts in response:
Not all parents complied with the Pastors. There are stories of some parents who reported the abuse of their child(ren) to police upon discovery (and when church leadership found this out, the leaders expressed disapproval and dismay i.e. John Loftness for one).
The Pastors put direct pressure on the parents in an effort to take control of situation, suppress the truth and exchange it, implicating the victims themselves. Also, the defense church leadership has used was, “We were complying with the wishes of the parents.” I say this is a lie. The right thing to have done for everyone would be to have reported it, embarrassing as it was. The Pastor’s pressured the parents to comply with their desires to not report it and manipulated them into agreeing with them in doing so. Think about it: reporting the abuse immediately would have cleared their children of any sense of involvement. The blame would have rested entirely on the perpetrator in the minds of everyone. The fact the Pastors manipulated the parents into keeping it quiet and covered, makes the parents took bad, as well as the churches statement that they ‘complied with the wishes of the parents.’
If one were to look closely at the motivation behind the kind of pressur these guys and their wives put on members to silence them and to insist upon unquestioning trust and conformity they would see revealed an evil spirit at work. There was a spirit operating amongst these people that was not the Holy Spirit. And this spirit operated throughtout the ministry and manifested itself in various different ways, but the most vicious manifestations were the immediacy in which those in leadership lashed out and attacked members whom they took advantage of, and suppressed any and all efforts made in challenge of their manmade agenda. “This wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.”
You’ve probably read the stories of victims and their parents who recognized the deception (“they purposely told us the wrong court date, deceived us, and supported the perpetrator”*) or who were manipulated by the suggestibility contained in the messages to members: submit, be a joy, don’t ask questions, trust us, we are called by God to watch over your souls, etc. The result of all this was that people were trained to feel afraid of stepping out of line, and they were so brow-beaten with ‘indwelling sin.’ You might as well forget bringing an ‘observation of sin’ to anyone in leadership as your motivations would be immediately questioned and you were considered to “proud.”
Some parents may have been compensated for their silence in some form. Others who were not cooperative were forced out of the church and, in one case, a mother was told the financial hardship she ended up suffering was because she had left her husband (who had been sexually abusing the children) against the counsel of the pastors (Gary Ricucci, John Loftness), who didn’t lift a finger to help her or her children – but they certainly didn’t hesitate to spend church money that should have been used to support these people on trips to Disneyland for themselves, right Gary and Betsy? From the Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville’s website: http://www.sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-our-pastors
I don’t know how all the parents of the victims responded. I do know Marcia Jo Griffeth, who used to be married to Nathaniel Morales, upon finding out about his after his arrest and discovering some of her sons has been molested by him, moved to divorce him.
I just want to say that this woman stands in stark contrast to women like Carolyn Mahaney, who continues to stand by her husband, and who stood by him all along.
Carolyn Mahaney is to the SGM Sexual Abuse Scandal what Dorothy Sandusky is to the Penn State Sexual Abuse Scandal.
Thank you Marcia Jo Griffeth. I have admired you from afar. I think you’re amazing. May God heal and restore your life and the lives of your wonderful sons.
There is one parent who I hope, after all these years, has realized the seriousness of his mistake and that is Richard Wolohan. Why on God’s Green Earth would he have traveled to visit Morales after he was sent to Teen Challenge, along with Leader(s) of Covenant Life Church, and together with his son whom Morales had molested? What is the story there? And why isn’t he talking? It would seem to me the Wolohan’s should definitely be amongst those who would go public with their story of how the leadership of Covenant Life Church manipulated them. Did the church compensate them? We know the Wohohan’s left the church, but what were the reasons? It seems to be that these people should be willing to go more public with their stories, unless, of course, their stories will be part of upcoming (let’s hope) criminal trial against CLC. I think, however, that something seems very peculiar to me about these people if they are forced to testify rather than willingly come forward with the information that they know sheds light on the truth of all these allegations.
*I think I read that Covenant Life Church also provided financial assistance to the perpetrators and for their defense. If this is true, it should surely be part of the criminal investigation. And for these reasons, it not only proves a cover-up, but that darker, more devious forces were at work.
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@ brad/futuristguy:
Okay, I could have missed something, as it’s hard to read PDFs side by side, but I read both word for word and compared, a paragraph at a time. And it appears the articles are identical in title and content, and the same quotes and links are present. The only thing that is definitely different is the post date/time: May 20, 5:57 PM for the version that mysteriously disappeared, versus May 21, 5:49 AM for the one that reappeared this morning.
P.S. It would be great to hear directly from the Christian Post publishers themselves what happened, and why this article disappeared for 12 hours. Given that “culture wars” seems to have shifted from outside battles between church/state to inside factions within the church itself, it is far too easy to speculate that the news agency pulled it under the influence of certain individuals or organizations. If a specific news outlet allows particular views or influential people/associations to trump others in this culture war, so be it, but then it seems to me it’s become an issue of trust in that agency. Personally, I’ve long since stopped believing in the supposed “objectivity” of the press. Everyone has a bias. I’d just like to know what the bias is, as that affects whether/how I share my views with them and about them.
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jackleeknows wrote:
LOL! 😆
Yep, we're just an obscure blog that "doesn't attract much visitors". Who taught you grammar?
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Here’s Morgan Lee’s explanation of what happened to the Tullian Tchividjian interview article (which by the way is the same possibility she offered to me yesterday after I contacted her privately):
https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/469108671587180544
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@ brad/futuristguy:
IN REFERENCE TO THE CHRISTIAN POST “MISSING ARTICLE,” THIS JUST IN FROM JULIE ANNE SMITH:
https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/469108671587180544
My concerns answered by the article writer, Morgan Lee, herself. Also, the fact that the version are identical other time date and time published seems good enough to go on to confirm that it was just a fluke. (Uhh … who hasn’t hit the “Publish” button too soon at least once on their blog …)
Thanks Julie Anne and Morgan for clearing that up.
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Gee, that was “biblical” timing, Julie Anne, like when the answer arrives before the prayer is even done. Thanks for compiling that Twitter post.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
I can’t help but wonder: in what other matters would they have deferred to the wishes of the parents (or anyone else) in the organisation?
Probably not many.
In what way did they defer to the parents who wanted Morales to face criminal proceedings?
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Okay. I read the CP article. This old issue of law vs grace is a biggie for these guys. And I note that Tullian T. noted that TGC was just “some” presbyterians and “some” baptists. I bet they would just love to shut him up!
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My favorite comment under Tullian’s article at TGC:
Made me laugh out loud lol
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’m going to answer this only because I’m the one that said it 😛
You know what I think? I think CLC’s reordering of the Youth Ministry stemmed from all this. They made this huge change, and suddenly the parents were required to attend all the Youth Meetings, too.
Of course it was all lauded as an example of Amazing Leadership! Isn’t Grant Layman so inspired that he would do this! What wisdom! How wise and thoughtful for this to occur, that instead of the kids just going to a meeting at church, their parents get to go, too!
I’m sure the kids were all jazzed about that.
But seriously, why else would they have initiated this odd change? Where do you find this happening, where parents are required to attend youth meetings with their kids. REQUIRED.
You know why? Because if something were to go wrong, the PARENTS
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Melissatheragamuffin wrote:
This is where I think the whole concept of “bounded choice” is relevant. The entire system of control is geared to remove the legitimacy of personal discernment and decision-making, and transfer it to the “leaders.” There is pressure to conform to the group’s expectations, to obey the authorities as God’s spokesmen to the flock and protectors of the flock, perhaps strong beliefs about dealing with issues “in house” instead of going to the world, etc. It creates a series of lose/lose situations about whatever you say, do, or are.
* Don’t behave in the way expected, and you’ll be pointed out and punished.
* Don’t obey the leaders, and you are disobeying God!
* Go to the world for it’s judgments, and you must not really be a Christian.
When you’ve been fed the equivalent of toxic faith drugs that condition the conscience, deaden discernment, and squash decision-makings skills … rather like the drugs given in daily doses to all of Libria’s citizens in the movie, *Equilibrium*. What would we expect but that some parents might succumb and not put up much or any fight at all? That’s the overall effect of “bounded choice.”
So … were the parents part of the conspiracy? I’m not sure a “yes/no” question is the best way to examine this. Bounded choice might suggest a spectrum of awareness, understanding, intent, willing participation, etc. I guess I just see it as more complex than that because of how life at SGM churches seemed utterly prescribed and circumscribed: Here’s the boundaries of how far you can go, and what you must/mustn’t say, do, feel while you’re inside “our” territory.
For some helpful material on bounded choice and how these kind of “totalist systems” work themselves out, you might want to check out Cindy Kunsman’s guest post series at Spiritual Sounding Board. Three parts are up already, and a final part is forthcoming.
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/05/12/lourdes-lifeboats-and-bounded-choice-part-iii-raised-in-a-totalist-institution/
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oops…continuing on…
Because if something were to go wrong, the PARENTS would be the automatic go-to place for the blame.
I think the reality of the situation is since Layman knew all about Morales, and Morales had been a youth leader at CLC, then instead of being transparent with the church and explaining the problems, and allowing their children to attend youth meetings at the church or not, or to attend as parents themselves or not, then fine. But that is not how this went down.
I was there during this change over. It was highly touted as an example of Great and Godly Leadership on the part of Grant Layman, right? You CLC’ers reading this know I’m right.
This wasnt an example of great leadership at all. This was another move by those in leadership to protect themselves at the expense of members, and to set up parents to take the fall if anything went amiss.
Seriously. How does it serve the youth, especially the large numbers of them who ar homeschooled, to have a meeting for them where their parents have to be there?
Again, nothing but self-serving in the guise of serving the Lord – and then unabashedly receiving the glory for it, as though the whole motivation behind it were that you were following God’s will or something. Lies!
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Paula wrote:
My bad!
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
No, you’re fine. Didn’t want you to think I was answering for Brad.
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Melissa:
You are right about the parents’ responsibility. They, even more than Layman, would be liable criminally if they knew of abuse of their kids and did not report it to the authorities. I am not aware of a legal exception to that obligation that is based on the parents being taught something different by their church.
But we do recognize that the parents were in a system where they were educated to believe that involving the secular authorities was wrong. And the church bears moral responisbility for that.
Also, as Paula mentioned, some parents did involve the police. And from the stories I have read, the church leadership criticized the parents, became involved in the prosecutions, and pleaded for leniency for the molester. I believe in those cases the molester(s) were juveniles.
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Paula wrote:
My bad!
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Every time I hear about churches insisting or suggesting that parents attend youth functions I want to gag.
I became serious in my faith as a teenager in the mid 70s. On Wednesday night, the youth met separately, in the gym, and had a service with a band etc. Our youth pastor was a phenomenal speaker and later went on to become nationally known and a teacher of youth pastors. The church was large (for that day), but the youth ministry could hold an event and have 500 or more students, many of whom were unchurched or troubled. We did not have a “hot dog supper and youth choir” type of youth ministry. It was intense and very real world.
When I hear of parents being added to the youth group it makes me believe that the church is just trying to create a safe place for the teenagers. The church is not creating teens who are going to impact their schools and those around them, and perhaps bring some of their friends to Christ etc.
It’s a closed, cradle to grave, system.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
I should warn you that ADHD people are notoriously recidivistic, so don’t encourage me.
😉
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@ Anonymous:
I found your comment very helpful, Anonymous. While the whole bounded choice/totalist system helps us understand the constraints that *everyone* who’s an underling in these kinds of organizations is under, that’s more about the personal-moral-ethical-faith side of things. It doesn’t release them from the legal ramifications. And since we are both citizens and saints, it’s important to look at both sides of that coin.
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Anyone else find it ironic that the Christian Post hosted an article on the 5 Rs of “true” repentance that included no reference to restitution, or even reconciliation (forget confession – that’s a “C”)? Here it is http://m.christianpost.com/news/5-characteristics-of-true-repentance-to-clear-up-confusion-120018/. The writer doesn’t even mention the human victims of someone’s sin. Oh no, God is the true victim. Absolutely disgusting and inadvertently revealing of the mindset of these people.
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@ Pam:
I am a feminist also. A couple of years ago I was chatting with some complementarian family members after a wedding. They were making snide remarks about the bride’s grandmother being a feminist. I asked if the grandmother was a Christian. My sister-n-law snootily snapped in my direction with “noooh! We just told you! She’s a feminist! I said, “I’m a feminist AND a Christian.” It was the first time I was brave enough to label myself and announce to the clan that I, too, am a feminist! That side of my husbands family hasn’t gotten together with us since. It hurts, but not enough to recant.
I used to think that they all hatedfeminists because they thought that feminists want to reverse the gender abuse and that all feminists are pro choice, so I would avoid the label for myself. I have been appalled to find out that the feminist haters know that feminism is about equal rights, but they don’t want equal rights. For the record, I am a pro-life feminist. There is even a Feminists for Life activists group that I support. I don’t think that it has a particular Christian label. They believe as I do that we need to have more support for the pregnant and babies in our schools and work places.
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@ burnrnorton:
Ohhh that’s awful, breeding another youth generation that will declare their repentance was enough for God so it should be for everyone else they have hurt. One of my father-n-law’s favorite lines to his kid’s confrontations about past abuse. “Well God has forgiven me so so should you!”
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@ burnrnorton:
From the article that you linked: “In an effort to clear up any confusion about what it means to “repent,” a leader from Harvest Christian Fellowship’s student ministries spells out the “5 R’s of Repentance” in a recent blog representing the church-led evangelistic youth movement, Uprising.”
Harvest Christian Fellowship is a Calvary Chapel church. This is another organization with an authoritarian, hierarchical structure. CCs also have a track record of abuse and cover-up thereof.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Amen to that. Perhaps some prosecution of parents would be indicated, not sure you meant that, but I am saying that. The court could always take into consideration at sentencing any inability to function that second generation adults might have. The courts deal with the “I have the can’t help its” defense a lot I hear. And perhaps some do. The system sounds horrific. That should be taken into consideration, after the fear of god was thrown at the whole crowd in the process, so to speak.
Well, think about it. We prosecute the poor vet with PTSD who kills somebody when he gets home, even though he maybe can’t help it. We just deal with the mental health issue in the process and try to see that justice is done to all the parties involved. Why use bad religion and closed system education as an excuse if we don’t use war and its residuals as an excuse? Come on now.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Firstly, as ‘new’, I haven’t experienced much that could be considered ungracious as far as I am concerned.
I have no problem at all with D & D allowing comments evangelifish might not want to hear, nor bluntness, nor showing strength of feeling. We are commanded to discern and expose evil. I do however think that there are some parameters laid down in the NT as to how we express ourselves.
Just emoting though, or unwise commenting where ‘the tongue’ has got out of control can be counterproductive in getting those who need to hear about abuse or other error from hearing it. That is a great pity.
I’m sure the shepherding error did indeed often create an ‘elder-type system of little Hitlers’. But invoking the Third Reich (and breaking Godwin’s law), the holocaust and comparing authoritarian pastoring with that era is a good example of unwise commenting.
I had the privilege together with my eldest daughter of hearing a Polish Jew now a pastor in Israel give his testimony here in Germany. Lost all his family, was hidden by Catholics, beaten to pulp twice by the SS who didn’t know he was a Jew, later a messenger during the Warsaw uprising, who had to wade through the sewers. “When I came out, I didn’t exactly smell of roses” – that’s Jewish humour for you. Goodness knows what suffering he endured and saw, though he didn’t overly dwell on it. Yet he was there blessing the very country who formerly perpetrated such horrors.
Now my point is that this mass suffering is demeaned by comments calling pastors Nazis or similar. I’m not in any way belittling suffering that has gone on in churches (so-called), but trying to argue for some perspective. I certainly got some perspective on my own church hassles that night without going down a guilt trip or denying the less savoury aspects of my Christian experience.
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Inverse credibility: If Dustin says it, I have to believe that opposite is likely to be true.
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@ burnrnorton:
This is fascinating.
Of course, the OT law is replete with examples in which restitution must be made to a wronged party other than God. This from Exodus 22:
I quoted that one because God explicitly undertakes to hear the person who cries out, not to rebuke them for sinfully craving answers, gossiping, or slandering the lender, or just inconveniently rocking the boat when we’ve got more important things to do than sort out these annoying little people and their petty somebody done me wrong‘s.
Then, Deuteronomy 24 commands Israel not to deny justice to the foreigner or the orphan – the ones with little corporate standing, in other words.
If a community of people can’t treat each other properly, what right do they have to claim that they’re treating God properly? And I’m not making that up, of course; it’s spelt out in 1 John.
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@ Nancy:
When I made my point about citizen-saints, I was thinking more about how criminal and/or civil action *could* be taken against parents who didn’t report, and that the potential consequences of a trial and conviction and sentences might be unavoidable. Not expressing an opinion at this time as to whether legal action *should* be taken.
As a related note, as best I can recall from my research of mandatory reporting laws in the past few years, there may be some states that have on their books that anyone who knows/suspects child sexual abuse is obligated to report it to the authorities. Not just clergy, counselors, officers of the law, etc., but anyone. (It’s a messy system to figure out with no federal standards, different state statutes, plus changes over time, etc. Hopefully something will happen along that line, along with changes in statutes of limitation for sexual abuse, coming out of the past few years of Penn State, etc etc etc.)
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@ Anonymous:
No I did not say that that I believe Layman and the others intended to foster child abuse by failing to report. I do believe that that is the effect of what they did, partly because the whole lot of them chose to be willfully ignorant of the nature of child sexual abuse and pedophilia. And willful ignorance of the likely effect of what someone does (in this case repeatedly) can substitute at law for intent.
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@ Patti:
Yep. And the reference to David saying against God only has had he sinned to justify it. Um, no, no that’s not right, it’s not true, and it defies the whole point of giving guidelines to recognize true repentance. Actually doing something difficult to help someone you wronged is an actual sign that people can judge. Everything else is just words and internal feelings.
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Patti wrote:
That’s how I identify myself as well. Christian feminism is a Christ-centered ideal that seeks to restore a godly partnership between men and women. They are not afraid to confront all forms of violence against women in all cultures—wife beating, emotional cruelty, sexual molestation, rape, female genital mutilation, sexual harassment, male dominance and machismo (male pride).
When the word is used negatively in an effort to silence women, we should not be afraid to confront that manipulation as well.
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Wow, Tullian doesn’t pull his punches in that Christian Post article.
At last, some real leadership. I hope he leads many away from the FALSE gospel of TGC and towards TRUE grace.
Reading his comments is like taking a breath of fresh air.
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burnrnorton wrote:
i.e. “See How SPIRITUAL *I* AM?”
The Gnostics of old were also into “More SPIRITUAL Than Thou”. In more than one Gnostic cult, the goal was to become “Pneumatic”, so SPIRITUAL that you ceased to be physical.
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Patti wrote:
“Waddaya mean, my Get-Out-of-Hell-Free Card isn’t a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card? It’s Signed By GOD Himself!”
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I’m so thankful Tullian spoke out. However, I have to ask, why wait to speak publically until he was given the “left boot of fellowship?” I know that the crickets, snide remarks, flat denials, and baldfaced lies coming from TGC are a stark contrast to Pastor Tullian’s condemnation, but if those *weren’t* there to contrast it, how highly would we hold Tullian for waiting to speak out until Grant Layman was caught on stand?
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May wrote:
Now you know how he got Purged from The Party.
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I have some words for Joe Carter…but they would offend most folks and make children cry and I’m sure they’d get modded, so I’ll just think them 🙂
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Paula wrote:
TIME OUT!
Morales the Molester was stashed in Teen Challenge?
I remember one of my writing partners telling me a horror story about a preacher he knew who forcibly committed his son to a Teen Challenge halfway house for playing Dungeons & Dragons. If there was a Morales in that halfway house at the time…
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Patti wrote:
If that is representative of a person’s level of repentance, then exactly how much forgiveness has been received is a grey area to say the least.
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Eagle wrote:
Loyal Attack Dog and Good Little Party Member.
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Eagle wrote:
And Stalin racked up at least twice the body count of Hitler. And Mao racked up at least twice the body count of Stalin. Then there’s Ideologically Pure Comrade Pol Pot, who still holds the record for democide as a percentage of the original population.
Just ask Pol Pot’s spiritual mentor — Citizen Robespierre and his Republique of Perfect Virtue, beckoning from the other side of the “Regrettable but Necessary” Reign of Terror. (The Jacobins of the French Revolution even had Pol Pot-style depopulation programs under serious consideration — including one proposal for “Mass Asphyxiations by means of Gas”. Since according to Plato’s Republic the Perfect State could not have a population greater than 15 million and France had a population of 25 million….)
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Nancy wrote:
What does Truly Reformed TCG think of the “ecclesiastical elite” of the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy? And their Pope?
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Estelle wrote:
Out of the mouths of babes…
(Or at least six-year-old rowdies…)
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With regards to the Christian Post, there are some strange things in its background. Ownership of the Christian Post is murky but it is believed to be held by the same people who own the International Business Times and, more recently, Newsweek. A couple of months ago, newspapers such as the Guardian and USA Today reported on the murky connections in the wake of an article claiming to have identified the creator of Bitcoin in as an otherwise undistinguished 60 something year old man of Japanese ancestry living in Southern California. (For his part, the man denied it.)
More to the point, Christianity Today identified a shadowy figure named David Jang who appears to be a spiritual leader to quite a few people involved with the Christian Post in 2012. Googling the “Second Coming Christ Controversy” will give interested parties mo r r detail than I can type in two-fingered on my phone.
I’m just saying with that background there could have been some shenanigans we’re not privy to. Or just the regular old political stuff, but I thought people should know the Christian Post’s background is somewhat murky.
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HUG, Teen Challenge has a lot of satellite houses/ministries. Where was your writing partner located?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You have brought up something like this several times, and I think you are absolutely correct. They condemn the RCC for a lot of things they themselves practice.
For example: they object to the RCC claims to the teaching authority of the church while they themselves claim that teaching authority for themselves in the name of god/bible. They object to hierarchy while they themselves practice it. They used to condemn the idea that there were specific things that the RCC required people to believe, and now look at how they do with their list of doctrines. They criticized the RCC for behavior rules, fish on Friday sort of rules, and now they are into a staggering list of comp rules for everyday life. They reject RCC theological tradition in any form (the very idea of tradition) and then they bow before Calvin and Spurgeon. They used to decry creeds, but you better sign on the dotted line of the latest baptist faith and practice statements. I don’t know what else–just on the spur of the moment.
The only thing they lack is smells and bells. Oh, and vestments. Oh yes, and a more generous attitude toward humanity as a whole. Just saying!
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Anonymous wrote:
There was at least one case where the perp was an adult and leaders of the church supported him and offered no help to the victim and the rest of the family.
There were also many cases where women and children were not given proper care, counsel, and protection due to the warped teaching of male headship and submission of women and children to husbands and fathers and husbands and father to male leaders of the churches.
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Here’s one for you, loosely picking up on a topic that’s dusted this thread here and there.
The phrase “little H1t1ers” originated, as might be expected, during the years immediately prior to the second world war. Anyone with a pompous or overbearing manner – including, say, a bossy older sibling – might be given the label. But the group who were given it more than any other were the Air-Raid Wardens, tasked with enforcing the Air-Raid Precautions or ARP regulations.
They were in place for some time before any actual air-raids occurred, and during that period they became known for petty enforcement of the regulations and little else that was useful – in fact, ARP was said to stand for ‘anging round pubs. It was widely assumed they were little people who enjoyed wielding the little authority they’d been given. But when the Blitz began, their reputation changed. For the most part, they proved to be brave and selfless men and women who patrolled during raids, helped rescue the injured from under rubble, and risked their own lives extinguishing fires and even incendiary bombs. Indeed, a significant number were killed in the course of duty.
It remains to be seen whether a similar group will emerge from among nominally Christian businesses whose past misdeeds are dragged kicking and screaming into the light by the secular justice system in the coming years. I hope so.
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@ mirele:
Good information. I did not know that.
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Patti wrote:
Some time back congress proposed an equal rights amendment to the constitution. NC did not ratify that amendment. In the time prior to the vote there was a lot of intense rhetoric I heard from those opposed to the amendment. Strangely enough, a lot of it had nothing to do with actual possible abuses of “equal rights” but rather seemed to be just seething emotion against the idea of gender equality as a principle. And almost 100% of the opposition that I saw came from women. I never did get a good grip on what people were thinking. But a lot of folks (enough to sink the idea in NC at the time) just do not believe in equal rights for women at all any how at any time under any guise. I got to thinking, some of these women have some sort of self hatred. I could have been wrong. I hope so.
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Sara wrote:
I made a comment (on TGC blog post) that appeared briefly after about 10 hours of moderation and then disappeared again.
I pointed out that the first sentence that said “an elder” testified needed to be corrected and filled in the positions “the elder” held at CLC and his relationship with Mahaney. I also asked why the downplaying of the role and position of “the elder” and asked that they please, for the sake of the victims, be up front about the levels to which the alledged cover-up reached.
Oh well…it remained up long enough for at least half a dozen people to read and click the “up” button.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Wasn’t The Patient in The Screwtape Letters an air raid warden who died in the line of duty?
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@ Nancy:
Not sure… I believe the character is killed in an air-raid, certainly.
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Taylor Joy Young wrote:
I don’t understand his motivations and I won’t even try to speculate. I can, however, speak to something that occurs within certain types of environments. I don’t know if it occurs within the TGC camp. Sometimes the pressure toward groupthink is so incredibly strong that it doesn’t feel safe for a dissenter — personally, spiritually, financially — to step out and speak up. Once someone removes himself or herself — or is removed — that person then feels safe enough to say something. Again, I have no clue if that’s what’s going on here. It’s just something that came to mind.
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muzjik wrote:
I saw that comment! It was excellent. And true.
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@ burnrnorton:
@ Nancy:
And while I am on an idea, here, suggested by HUG, about similarities to and/or attitudes about catholicism among anti-catholic protestantism, here is a popular American English Version of a catholic Act of Contrition. I see some similarities to the referenced article about repentance.
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended You,
and I detest all my sins, because I fear
the loss of heaven and the pains of hell,
but most of all because they offend You, my God,
who are all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Your grace,
to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life.
Amen.
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Nancy wrote:
Nancy, I think there may be many reasons for female resistance to the idea of equality. One, may be a reluctance to accept responsibility and/or to make serious decisions. Another might be learned behavior; i.e. the “princess” mentality that shouldn’t have to do the things required of those women who are “burdened” with heavy things. Another might be training in Christian “roles” and the “equal, but different” teachings absorbed from an early age. And last, but not least, sermons that equality is likened to that nasty word “feminism.”
Just some of my guesses.
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Taylor Joy Young wrote:
Currently he’s located in central Pennsylvania. This incident would have happened in either central PA or the Baltimore area, though I think PA is the most likely because he still hears occasionally about the kid (who he says became a complete train wreck, alternating between channeling Fred Phelps and Marilyn Manson at rock-slam intensity).
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An Attorney:
I thought that’s what I said you had said. Sorry if I got that wrong.
I personally don’t think they were even wilfully ignorant. I don’t believe they were that knowledgeable when the matter first surfaced.
From 2007 on, they were operating to keep what they had known and done secret. But it initially, I believe it was their view of the Bible and ignorance to try and deal with this by sending Morales to Teen Challenge and by not reporting the abuse.
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Nancy wrote:
They also lack a historical track record.
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Sara wrote:
I understand there’s also an 80/20 rule in effect with most organizations or tribal groups. Once a consensus reaches aroung 80%, the groupthink hits critical mass and the 20% dissenters either conform or get expelled.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
sadly, that sounds right 🙁
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Eagle wrote:
It is really bizarre to me. He is getting paid. If I behaved like this for my employer, I would be fired (and yes, we have had people fired for their behavior on social media). It can only be seen as TGC endorsing foolishness, bullying, and immaturity. I’m not sure what he hopes to gain, but I can tell you what he has lost: the respect of me and any other reasonably mature adult human.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This is true. Although, among some baptists, and in one line of baptist thought, they like to trace baptist-like ideas back through seemingly innumerable channels of non-conformists, and declared heretics and such since the earliest days of christianity. They do/did until the calvinistas, have a significant minority who denied that the baptist tradition was ever, historically, protestant. That seemed to be so that they could deny that their religious predecessors were ever Catholic. That idea was fairly prevalent in my youth, but I don’t know how many people hold to that idea now.
This has nothing at all to do with apostolic succession but only with tracing ideas from era to era.
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Nancy wrote:
Say what you want about Catholics, but the sacrament of reconciliation is pretty decently thought out. You confess and get counsel from a priest, do appropriate penance to show sincere repentance and be held accountable (e.g., you won’t get absolved, generally, until you confession that murder you committed to the authorities or start repaying the money you stole), then you rejoin the faith community. You’re supposed to do all the internal work, too, but you have to show externally that you are sorry and accountable. A priest would never leave restitution/penance off the list of markers of true repentance.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I would also add buffoonery.
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Patti wrote:
Film maker Ridley Scott has a knack for probing religious questions and their ramifications for real life. Is karma and comeuppance all of a sudden negated because one’s theological doctrines seem to say so? I think not. Watch the film clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5XPClOckPs
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Did you all see that The Gospel Coalition posted a response this afternoon?
http://thegospelcoalition.org/article/on-some-recent-changes-at-tgc
Authored by Tim Keller and Don Carson.
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Marge,
I have placed a call to Tullian. I have sent a message to Justin Taylor at TGC. If I find out that the Gospel Coalition, Tim Keller, Don Carson, Justin Taylor and the whole group of men who run the network removed Tullian because of his criticism of TGC’s leaders for prematurely speaking a word of support and defense for CJ and Josh in the sexual abuse cover-up several months ago, then I promise to use barrels of ink (or type) to go after The Gospel Coalition. That’s not a threat. It’s a fact. I am waiting for some response, but I saw the same article to which you linked and very few things make my blood boil, but that article did. They say, “it’s a ‘doctrinal’ matter’ that caused them to remove Tullian, but to my naked eye and with a ton of experience in “Hardball Religion” it sure seems retaliation for the criticism Tullian sent TGC’s way for blindly supporting CJ and Josh and denigrating the victims. I’m waiting….. but I feel compelled to do something … hoping somebody straightens me out and tells me where I’m missing it.
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burnrnorton wrote:
In private, so there is no opportunity for gossip.
With all that is said confidential, so that the penitent may speak freely with no danger of exposure. Whether face-to-face or anonymous through a screen.
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@Marge Sweigart:
(from http://thegospelcoalition.org/article/on-some-recent-changes-at-tgc )
Spin. Politics. Halftruths. Lies.
Spin. Politics. Halftruths. Lies.
Spin. Politics. Halftruths. Lies.
Because there is obviously no connection between the “the ongoing civil suit” against Joshua Harris’ church and CJ Mahaney. In fact, CJ Mahaney isn’t even sure he has met Joshua Harris apart from a few tgc council meetings 😉
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@ Marge Sweigart:
Saw it–and it’s only interesting for the big elephant in the room not mentioned.
That would be the child abuse covered up at CLC as exposed by Grant Layman’s testimony lat week. There’s not a word, not a breath…
This is absolutely, completely unacceptable. D.A. Carson, Joe Carter, all of you at the Gospel Coalition, you deserve every bit of opprobrium which will be heaped on your heads. If the welfare of children matters to you and you’re part of TGC, you need to get out now because “the least of these” DO NOT MATTER to the TGC power brokers.
And the sanctification excuse for giving Pastor Tullian the left foot of fellowship I’d just crazy. It’s just a way to draw the charmed circle ever tighter. And yet the cries of abused children at churches count for nothing in TOY’S calculus.
Disgusting.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Artists of all sorts tend to have a knack for doing that.
Maybe that’s why they often get driven out of their churches.
Several years ago on Internet Monk, there was a free-for-all over the role of artists among Christians, with special emphasis on the abysmal propaganda pieces churned out by the Official Christianese Publishing/Film-making/Arts. And one comment in the thread piqued my interest:
He claimed a special word from God. Coming from a church where “Mary Channeling” is the preferred way to flake out, I’m normally skeptical of such “Private Revelations”, but this one intrigued me. For what it’s worth:
He said that God was removing his mantle from the Official Christianese “Art” Machine and placing it on secular artists/writers/filmmakers. (“Mene, Mene, Tekel, Uparshin…”) Henceforth secular art/fiction/movies would begin to say and show what God wanted said, since Christianese art/fiction/movies had dropped the ball so bad.
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Let’s be careful about assuming all women who choose traditional roles do so because they hate themselves, or refuse to accept responsibility, or don’t want heavy burdens.
Heavens, I never figured fostering, adopting, or raising a special needs child in addition to a gifted one, while growing our own food and preserving it, serving in the church, and teaching voluntary simplicity in addition to part time work in a library and school was for weak willed, timid sissies who didn’t want responsibilities.
Many times I thought how much easier a paid full time career would have been.
It wouldn’t have been any easier, of course, just different. Just as my life wasn’t any easier, just different.
Now if we can just get women to respect women…..
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@ Marge Sweigart:
Now I am really confused. If the issue is basically doctrine, and if as he says it is difficult to maintain a coalition of evangelical pastors (my words-his idea) and if there is a history of this causing some problems/bad feelings in the past, and if they currently disagree on so many questions, why do it? What is the purpose of the organization in the face of that many negatives?
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That piece from TGC not only tiptoes carefully around C.J. Mahaney, but it also backhand slaps Tullian Tchividjian pretty smartly.
All the fanboys will soon fall in line with tweets and blog posts decrying the way Tchividjian spoke out. He will become the new pariah.
These guys are so predictable.
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@ burnrnorton:
I hope I have not given the wrong impression here. You will seldom find a protestant with more good things to say about catholicism than I. None the less, I do think that there is a shared emphasis between the act of confession and the guy’s article on repentance on the issue that sin is sin against God, not just against society or fellow humans.
You have written a good defense of the sacrament of reconciliation. I was neither defending nor condemning anything but rather pointing out one point of similarity.
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burnrnorton wrote:
There’s a story I heard regarding the birth of St Martin de Porres that touches on this. If you’ve seen statues of this Panamanian saint, he looks BLACK. Actually, he was what was then called “mulatto” and is now called “mixed-race” (like a certain B.Obama), the son of a Spanish colonist (Conquistador or descendant of same) and his black slave girl. (You know, like the ones who got sold off all over the South? “Brown Sugar” for fun and profit?)
Well, when he went to Confession for getting his animate property pregnant, the priest gave him his penance. No “Five Hail Marys and you’re back on the street”; more like “You will free the girl and her son, acknowledge the son as your bastard, and provide for both until the boy comes of age.”
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IIRC, CS Lewis wrote in one little book (Can’t remember the title, and I have it no longer), that Christian artist shouldn’t strive to make “Christian” art, only good art.
The goal was to be as good as possible as an artist, not to make it specifically “Christian”. He also said that most purportedly Christian art wasn’t worth a lot.
Once sentence I can still quote from memory: “Even holy shoddy is shoddy.”
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mirele wrote:
Here’s the real problem….joe carter questions why they should mention anything, because they’re not a denomination and those issues are at the local, church level. Yet, they have no hesitation to comment on every cultural foible, the evils of egalitarianism, etc. Surely they can see the double standard, right? I guess that’s the problem with para church groups….they can speak with impunity, but hide behind church polity nonsense when they want to….cake and eating it. And I’m equally surprised by their comment about unity. It’s actually pretty easy to obtain in TGC..just give the boot to anyone to disagree. This is a dark day for me personally, for the first time I’m strongly considered leaving my PCA church over this (it”s in the NY presbytery). Need some time to think about this….I keep thinking, “maybe I’m wrong, maybe CJ really didn’t know, etc..”, but seems like I would need to insert my head in the sand to think that.
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gus wrote:
This was in reply to HUG HUG
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Nancy wrote:
To show how united they really are (tongue n cheek)!
Conferences, books, doctrinal conformity, a platform . . . a coming together to create a tower to reach to heaven (which defeats the purpose of the Gospel).
My 2 cents . . . take it or leave it.
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linda wrote:
Who assumed that???
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linda wrote:
You are talking about choosing. I was talking about a constitutional amendment that would widely affect all women, regardless of what they chose or not. There is a difference in saying that one chooses this or that as opposed to saying let’s pass laws which require changes which affect everyone.
However one chooses, and however one believes for oneself, there is a line when it comes to laws and constitutional amendments and such. It would be vastly different, for instance, to say that I do not want to serve in the military (and I surely did not want to do that) and on the other hand saying let’s pass some laws that prevent any women from serving in the military. This is just an example.
Now why would women so actively try to deny other women some opportunities just because they themselves do not choose that, even to the extent of rejecting the very concept of gender equality? It still looks somewhat like some women hate women. Like I said, I could be wrong and I hope so.
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@ Nancy:
Oh, I didn’t think you were. I do find it amusing they take all the authority/hierarchy stuff and skip the counter balancing doctrines and practices.
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@ Wade Burleson:
Thank you, Wade.
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@ Nancy:
Second. Feminism isn’t about forcing women into a different kind a box but about freeing us to choose our own roles.
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linda wrote:
Linda, just for clarification… my comment regarding refusal of some women to accept responsibilities was directed to those who may prefer their husbands to carry the majority of responsibilities to the exclusion of their participation. That was in response to Nancy (I think) wondering why some women were strongly in favor of complementarianism as opposed to egalitarianism.
Hope that clarifies what I meant. I did not have women who choose traditional homemaking in mind. Having chosen that myself, I’m fully aware of the load it entails! 🙂
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@ Nancy:
It occurs to me that one thing I said in the original comment may have been misunderstood. I used the term self hatred. That is a term used within a particular religious/ethnic group to describe individuals of that group who seem to hate not only themselves but mostly the group of which they are a part. It is patly self (I) hatred but mostly self (we) hatred It has been postulated that oppressed groups do this. That is what I was referring to. Perhaps some women feel that way about themselves by virtue of and because of being female.
I can’t think right now of any more ways to say it. This will have to do.
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Off topic, but I would require the prayers of those TWW readers who pray as my father is in the hospital again. He has advanced Alzheimer’s. Please pray that God’s will be done. Thank you.
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For some reason the Keller/Carson TGC piece will not open on my computer. Not sure if it’s a glitch on my end, a glitch on their end, or a pulled article. In any case, the Google Cache saves the day (and I’ve Evernoted it too):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6Yhemh8TGQEJ:thegospelcoalition.org/article/on-some-recent-changes-at-tgc+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
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burnrnorton wrote:
So why are the women I am talking about so opposed to it? How come, I had to listen to so much mess for so long from people who thought I had done them some harm by choosing differently from them, while at the same time I could not care less what paths they chose for themselves and certainly did not try to determine their lives in any way? How was I a threat to them? You have good ideas. Talk to me here.
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Alex wrote:
You’ve made me curious. Are you able to put together a bleeped-out or watered-down version? Or are you able to pass on a few choice highlights or reasons why you have “some words” for Joe Schmo Carter?
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
I used to think Keller and Carson had some moral integrity. There is no moral compass at all in TGC.
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@ Nancy:
On the sidelines of this generation’s Mommy wars, I think a lot of women were and are very ambivalent about their choices and a lot of women felt and feel like they didn’t really have choices or opportunities. Some women handle these feelings well, some let it plunge them into depresion, but some direct their own negative feelings outward. The only way they know how to feel better is to elevate themselves at the expense of women who made different choices. If they can find a group to validate them and help them do it, so much the better. Self loathing and jealousy play a role, but a lot of it is basic in group-out group behavior of the kind we like to think we left behind in high school.
Myself, I have children and a career and like it. I think, for practical reason, that it’s best for most parents to continue working to provide insurance against death, disability , unemployment, or abandonment by the other, but that’s not a moral judgment and I have friends who made a different choice. Heck, if I made more money or my husband did, we might have made a different choice. I have regrets and unfulfilled dreams, but I live a pretty happy life and the fact that someone in my peer group has more of what I wanted doesn’t make me want to put her down or attack her. I have zero patience for people who want to attack me for the same reason. Ad little as I care tof fight the Mommy wars, though, being surrounded by a media that spews constant judgment about women’s choices wears me down. I’m just glad I don’t face people in real life who act that way.
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@ Nancy: well… there’s at least one woman out in the “manosphere” blogging world (very misogynistic and just poisonous; identified a hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center) who firmly believes that women in the US should NOT have the right to vote. (btw, I have no idea what her reasons are – I took one quick glance at her blog and hightailed it out of there!)
It takes all kinds, I guess, but I wish some of them would be quieter.
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@ numo:
I know of whom you speak. Do not speak her name lest she appear.
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@ burnrnorton:
Yeah, me too. What you said.
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@ Nancy: I was just a teenager when the ERA was being debated – and when it was scuppered. It seemed that an awful lot of adults were SO frightened of the idea that they made up God alone knows what reasons for not supporting it, and assumed that all hell would break loose upon the earth if it was passed.
The fury and the crazy ideas being touted as fact in rants against the ERA never struck me as coming (maybe) from multiple parallel universes!
I know that doesn’t answer your question, but it’s what my young, bemused self was thinking at the time. (I was in favor; it seemed like a no-brainer to me!)
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oops – struck me as coming from multiple parallel universes. “Never” shouldn’t be in comment above.
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@ burnrnorton: It’s not them, but someone else, secular, actually.
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JeffT wrote:
I am profoundly disappointed in Tim Keller today. Someone who once seemed theologically accessible, discerning and safe no longer seems so. And it breaks my heart.
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This recent D.A.Carson/Tim Keller statement is I think the last straw for me.
I need to think on this for a stretch, but I am close to speaking out with my real name here and perhaps elsewhere. I have done what (little) I could behind the scenes, but this defense from the two “Senior Statesmen” and co-founders of The Gospel Coalition comes close to rendering the whole project not just somewhat meaningless (which is how I have viewed TGC to this point — the real work of God happens in Methodist Churches and Catholic Churches and Lutheran Churches etc. etc.), but as positively DESTRUCTIVE, in which case I will feel compelled to use my little voice to speak out.
My one (and really only) concern — perhaps you all here at TWW can help me with this — is that I do not want to complicate things for the normal and good brothers and sisters in Christ in my own congregation. No one needs a pastor who is distracted by other things or seen as a blowhard, and so my relationship with my own congregation must be my chief concern. No one needs to come to church on a Sunday wondering if their pastor has really been thinking about and praying for them all week long. That is why I have remained anonymous here at TWW for the past several years. Anyway, I am going to reflect on things moving forward.
But I must say again how deeply, deeply disturbed I am by who D.A.Carson and Tim Keller have shown themselves to be with today’s statement. The whole TGC enterprise has not just been “much ado about nothing” (which would be bad enough), but has provided safe harbor for positive evil.
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Who here after reading that piece by Carson and Keller is wondering what is the point of the Protestant reformation? Due to corruption and indulgencies and Papal abuse we threw off a Pope, only to replace that with a corrupt, decandant, tyrant like CA Carson and Tim Keller.
I feel sick…..
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One of the saddest things is that I could point to any number of passages in Tim Keller’s Center Church or Carson’s book on 2 Corinthians, or probably any of their other books, that would militate AGAINST doing exactly what they did with this statement today….
I don’t expect them to listen to me. But I did and do expect them to listen to themselves. And they have not been.
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@ pcapastor:
I would say pray and talk to a few people in your congregation who will give you honest feedback about the direction of your thinking. In the end, of course, you need to be bound by your conscience.
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Failed SGM Stepford Wife wrote:
Assuming anyone with a brain takes that propaganda seriously – which I doubt. If they really -if they really – gave Tullian the boot because of his views on sanctification, then they are no longer a Gospel Coalition. They are a “perfectly parsed theology” coalition.
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@ Amy Smith:
Amy, what’s interesting about the Anchored conference is how it’s being administered by “Mission Hills Bible Church,” which is based in Kansas. I live here in Arizona and I’m trying to figure out in what world would a regional conference based in Arizona be administered out of Kansas. Particularly when there are TGC affiliated churches in the Phoenix area. So the talk about it being a regional conference is just a smokescreen in my opinion.
And, I should note that since TGC has cast its lot with C.J. Mahaney, it will also be a target of my protest at the Phoenix Convention Center June 20-23. I will be warning attendees that TGC cares more for its reputation than for “the least of these.”
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This whole thing is so troubling! I understand all to well the manipulations of those in pastoral leadership. I just don’t understand in all of this where was the parents responsibility to go to the police. Don’t you think Responsibility for the future victims rest on their shoulders as well?
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Marie2 wrote:
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@ Eagle:
I don’t believe enough people are to blame here. Carson and Keller are the public faces but they couldn’t have been the only ones to sign off on this fiasco.
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
Someone is asking why Matt Chandler is no longer part of the council.
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pcapastor wrote:
do you have any idea how much, if any of a PCA church budget goes into the local presbytery?
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@ pcapastor:
I don’t know anything about you or your situation at all. But I do know something about myself; that it is awfully easy to get caught up in some fight (all that excitement and adrenalin) and awfully hard to maintain the nose-to-the-grindstone of same old same old day after day. But it is the latter that usually pays off in the end, for me that is.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hmm….during the process these last few years of facing and investigating my childhood abuse/abusers, I made the disturbing discovery that the man who molested me when I was 2 1/2 was later sent by his church/family to be a counselor at Teen Challenge as some sort of attempt to rehabilitate him (he had also become an alcoholic). All of this happened long before I began investigating, but I have to say that finding out that was a pastor’s idea of rehab – send a pedophile to Teen Challenge? Really? It boggles the mind…..
Of course, my opinion of Teen Challenge is a whole other issue – but it is akin to sending you kid to Christian™ reform school….with all the attendant built in abuses…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It is my contention that if the repentance does not include the understanding/belief that nothing whatever may be demanded of the victims, including God, then it is not true repentance. Any time someone says that they have repented and therefore you have to forgive them, that is not true repentance. That is manipulation and/or self-deceit.
I remember the day I walked out of my former church – during the 2 1/2 hour session spent in the pastor’s office, one of the things he said concerning his standing after having preyed on one of the women who came to him for marriage counseling: “I have been spanked by the Great Shepherd, and there is no one west of the Mississippi that is more righteous than me.” The tone and body language added that I needed to back off and treat him with due respect because of this. My mind kind of went on ’tilt’ and I didn’t even know how to respond…..
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Well, Tullian was already withdrawing but was not going to be ready, he said, until August. And they say he was not a member of TGC but just wrote stuff there. And he already has disagreed with some of them in the past, like that latest thing TWW commented on. So, yes, I think they differ on some doctrine. And the way they emphasize every relatively slight doctrinal variation, I do think that doctrine has been an issue between them, having read a little of his stuff.
But get out now as in right this minute because of your ideas on sanctification? Nah. There is emergency surgery and there is emergency evacuation but who ever heard of emergency sanctification doctrine corrective action? They ought to give the guy a bonus who thought that one up.
What I don’t get, however, is if they think he is or might be a problem for them right at this time why risk such a dramatic action? Why not just ease along and hope for the best. Do they want to make as many people angry as possible? Makes no sense to me.
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burnrnorton wrote:
I think Paul Simon put it best when he wrote:
I know a woman, (who) became a wife
These are the very words she uses to describe her life
She said a good day ain’t got no rain
She said a bad day is when I lie in the bed
And I think of things that might have been
Slip sliding away, slip sliding away
You know the nearer your destination, the more you slip sliding away
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Nancy wrote:
Nancy: let’s start with this idea: They were just jackasses. period.dot.decimal. Can you allow the fact that women can be jackasses?
Or how about this idea: they saw gifts in you that they felt were going to be wasted in your chosen path and were not able to communicate that concern in a constructive manner.
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Bridget wrote:
Thank you! Very helpful.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Brilliant. An utter lose/lose for them.
Either they were not forthcoming with the real reasons for giving him the boot — in which case they are now liars (according to my reading of the Larger Catechism, anyway). Or, as you said, they gave him the boot because he doesn’t “perfectly parse” his theology in a way they approve of — in which case they are utterly sectarian know-it-alls who elevate themselves and their judgements above the visible church of Jesus Christ (of which, Tullian’s presbytery – which officially approves of Tullian’s theology — is most certainly a branch).
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acg116 wrote:
It varies from church to church, and from presbytery to presbytery. I have seen it be anywhere from 0% (roughly half of PCA churches give nothing to their Presbytery) to, perhaps 1.5% of the overall budget at the most. There may be churches and presbyteries with higher numbers, but that has been my experience.
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Nancy wrote:
Wow. Thank you for this. This is the sort of thing my wisest friends and family say.
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Per the Keller-Carson piece, was that a diplomatic way of saying that Tullian “vilified” them and that he shouldn’t have? And then they tack on a thing at the end saying that graciousness should be present in saved people, i.e. Tullian was not gracious? Take that to its logical conclusion, and if we’re inclined to be really uncharitable, they could be calling Tullian’s salvation into question. I hope they’re not, but I’ve think we’ve all read a lot of backhanded “you might not be saved because X” or “you’re barely saved because X” statements, and this sadly isn’t all that dissimilar. It reminds me a little too much of John Piper implying that agreeing with him about divorce is a mark of salvation. It would be really sad if Keller stooped to that level, esp. since theological differences about sanctification should in no way get you there.
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Warwick wrote:
Amen, amen and amen.
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@ pcapastor:
Yeah, as someone who never reads TGC and thus hasn’t followed this sanctification debate that’s apparently going on, I don’t see how a difference in doctrine about sanctification should get you booted from an organization that’s ostensibly united around the barebones Gospel (i.e., Jesus died for you, believe in Him). Heck, in a way we could call just about anything a difference in doctrine about sanctification. For example, you think Christians can drink? You don’t understand sanctification because if you did you’d agree with me about practice, and as it is you’re encouraging people not to be fully sanctified, so get out. Now replace drinking with just about anything else – divorce, birth control, violent video games, etc. However, I know that’s probably not what was under discussion here.
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mirele wrote:
I’ll pray for him. 🙂
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Nancy wrote:
TGC has baptists, presbyterians, Reformed Church in America, etc. There have always been doctrinal differences (RCA, for example, ordains women, and of course there is the whole baptism thing). Furthermore, Tullian’s position on sanctification is wholesome, orthodox, and in concordance with the majority of the protestant creeds – his position is that sanctification is an act of God that works out in a believer’s life when they draw near to God and are overcome by his grace. Some of the other council members believe rather strongly that sanctification is the result of our hard work to please God. So the only thing in that whole blurb that makes sense would be kicking him for “divisiveness” – which is pretty rich considering the recent buffoonery (stole that one!) of Carter, e.g. Something is rotten in Denmark.
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Hester wrote:
“Heck, in a way we could call just about anything a difference in doctrine about sanctification.” Great point. They are no model of how to build any sort of coalition.
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mirele wrote:
You got it.
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Will the real Tim Keller please stand up?
Seriously, I am trying to figure out how Tim Keller can sign on to this. Two days ago I literally finished his book The Prodigal God and was deeply encouraged by what I read. It was a beautiful book about God coming for us Prodigals as well as the Elder brother. It was gospel saturated. Sure he talked about your transformation but in the same light Tullian does. When you are gripped by a loving and merciful God it is naturally going to produce things in you. I didn’t see that much difference between Tullian and Tim Keller. I also remember watching T. Tchvidijian on Fox News speaking to their religion reporter and commenting on how great it was that she was part of Redeemer which actually focused on the gospel. This dialogue happened no more than six months ago.
Has Tullian’s views really changed that much in six months?? Puh-leeze. The sanctification issue isn’t what finally sent him packing, his comments about CJ being a micro managing, control freak sent him packing. He didn’t say anything uncharitable about TGC but he did have a few unkind things to say about CJ. I really believe that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
God Bless Tullian, his brother, and the whole family. It isn’t easy to go against these guy on any minute point. I am so sad for them because the next shoe to drop will be that they are heretics and anyone who listens to them are headed to hell also. Interestingly, I heard a podcast from a Lutheran minister who was critiquing a Calvinistic Baptist who was denouncing Luther as a heretic and was discouraging his congregants from following anything he said. He was dismayed that he (Luther) was being lauded in the Reformed world as well. It’s almost as if they were preparing people for what was to come. You can’t just drop the guy. You have to say he is a false teacher. It saves face.
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@ Hester:
In this case, I don’t think it is about practice. If you look at the comments on the thread about TGC Changes you will see that Joe Carter uses the word Gospel when he seems to mean justification. He then says that most Christians believe that the Gospel is tied to the doctrine of sanctification. I would never say that justification is tied to our sanctification. That would be justification by works instead of by faith in Christ alone. I would say that sanctification is a result of, and flows from, being justified in Christ.
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Paula wrote:
I messed up. I thought I had read somewhere that Richard had taken Brian with him to visit Morales at Teen Challenge. I have that wrong. Richard took Kevin Wolohan with Him. I’m not sure who Kevin is, but again, it was Brian like I had assumed. I apologize for the misinformation.
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I will.
mirele wrote:
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While I’m glad that eagle is no longer an agnostic angry at God, evidently he seems to have directed that anger and hatred towards other people instead. Even his most recent comments about how he is honestly convinced that joe carter wants to kill people, and torture them, and that he is an evil parasite and nazi and so on and so forth. No one is rebuking him, save for one person, ken, who gets my kudos and a shoutout. By not correcting this sinful behavior on Eagles part you are enabling him and in fact are hurting him by not building him up in his sanctification.
I have no reason not to believe that Joe Carter is my brother in the faith, Even if I believe that he is acting badly, or is in great sin, he still deserves to be treated like a brother in the faith. Evidently the vast majority of people have written him off as the spawn of satan himself, and that is a shame
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@ Robin:
This is really ironic because I know I once read Charles Spurgeon reference Luther favorably. Spurgeon being the Calvinist Baptist giant that he is, that could be hard to explain for these guys.
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Hour 3- Tullian Tchividjian discusses his departure from The Gospel Coalition.
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Bridget wrote:
You might want to check out my old post here:
My previous post on another thread
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numo wrote:
David Barton tackles women’s voting rights
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mirele wrote:
I’m very sorry.
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I went back to the TGC’s post on its website re: Tullian and CJ, and was floored by a comment made four hours ago according to the timestamp. I’m copying it verbatim (in case the moderators there decide to delete it):
“Dennis HC • 4 hours ago
Putting TGC’s and TT’s statements regarding this issue side-by-side, it seems clear which one is more gracious and less accusatory. Perhaps it’s just because Pastors Carson and Keller have more years of walking in the faith than TT. Or, perhaps it’s because Christian maturity and bearing fruit in accordance with salvation are benefited by a proper and biblical view of sanctification. My best wishes to both TGC and TT.”
The shot at Tullian is bad enough. The follow-up comment is way worse; it implies those who DO not have the commenter’s ‘proper and biblical view of sanctification’ are not mature and not bearing fruit in accordance with salvation.
At best this is poorly expressed. At worst, it implies a great arrogance on behalf of the Reformed world against the rest of Christendom.
Someone has to push back on this. I’m not that person, but surely someone with sufficient pastoral and theological training and experience who is a regular on this blog could be.
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Awmj3rd wrote:
Ummmm….I do hear you, but I think it is hard to understand what these parents might have been going through – the intense pressure that the SGM system creates is extremely difficult to describe. I have every feeling of sadness possible for those parents – I am sure they are wracked with guilt for what happened, and don’t need any more.
Here is hoping that people start pressuring the powers that be for more stringent pastoral reporting laws on a national level.
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mirele wrote:
Hi I am extremely sorry that you are going through this. I will definitely say some prayers for you and your Dad tonight.
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burnrnorton wrote:
That’s true, and it’s a really important point here, because there is a tendency for those of us on this side of the Tiber, to gloss over the fact that the confessional is not where you go to get a “get out of jail free card”. It’s where you are made to come to terms with the damage that your sin has done.
And if some of these guys with the big names & the big attitudes to match had been required to do a penance (of whatever kind), they wouldn’t have been able to develop the sense of “Me-me-me-me” that makes them so toxic. They would have to actually DEAL with sin, not sweep it under the carpet.
Indeed, I have long suspected that the irrational, kneejerk anti-Catholic sentiments that ooze from the pores of so many of these super-entitled uberpatriarchs.
But, hey, that’s me, & I’m one of the cranky old ladies who get snarled at (in absentia) by many a patriarchal donkey’s hindquarters in that camp.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes!! I seriously LOVE that priest, who is, I have no doubt, a saint himself.
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anon for a good reason wrote:
I particularly dislike comments such as the one you highlighted there, anon. The old “God bless” trick at the end of a snide, venomous put-down. As Paul pointed out to Corinth: love builds up, but knowledge only puffs up, and the comment typifies what happens to a person who thinks he has the proper and biblical view of anything.
I know what you mean, but I wonder. We’ve all seen what happens when movements fall for the “perfectly parsed theology” delusion (to paraphrase Dr Fundystan’s comment earlier). But if I think I’ve seen something wrong with this, it’s (duh…) doubly important not to walk into the same trap.
Not sure how clearly I’m expressing this, but what I mean is, I think someone with more love needs to push back on this sort of thing. Theological training and love aren’t mutually exclusive, of course, but theology can be gained without God; whereas the love we’re talking about cannot.
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pcapastor wrote:
Point 1 of 2
In a world where the noisiest pastors concern themselves with marketing their books, travelling the conference circuit and sitting on high-profile boards with their buddies, it’s nice to be reminded that there are pastors to whom people matter more than profile.
Point 2 of 2
Maybe the key is the phrase normal and good brothers and sisters in Christ. These are men and women seated with Christ in heavenly places, far above the dominions of men with their proper and biblical views of this, that and the other. Might it actually be the case that you and the whole congregation can address the likes of TGC with one voice here? To the effect of, You do not own the Gospel, and we do not find your actions in keeping with the Gospel? What I mean is, what is the view of the congregation together here?
In one of Neil Cole’s “Organic church” books, he describes a conversation with the pastor of a church that was in the process of appointing elders. The pastor, who’d been in place for 23 years, brought in some theological heavies from the seminary at which he was an associate professor, to help with the appointment. Cole asked him why the people in the church couldn’t appoint their own elders, and the pastor responded that they couldn’t be relied on to tell whether the candidate elders’ teaching was good or not. To which Cole predictably responded (I paraphrase), So, after 23 years of your ministry – 1000 Sunday sermons – they still can’t tell good teaching from bad? How many years would they have to listen to you preach before they could tell good teaching from bad?
Cole had a point, and that attitude is all too common – but (if I may so venture) I am persuaded of better things concerning you!
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What is happening to the other SGM alleged abusers? e.g. Loftness and Griney? I don’t understand why they haven’t been arrested yet? Or if they’re innocent, why aren’t they doing everything they can to clear their names?
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burnrnorton wrote:
Using your example of “murder” and “money you stole”, would the priest give the individual making the confession a deadline for going to the authorities or repaying the money? And if the individual failed to meet the deadline (assuming one was given) would the priest be obligated to inform the authorities and report the murderer or thief?
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@ Joe2:
There wouldn’t be a deadline per se, they just wouldn’t be absolved and technically wouldn’t be permitted communion until they compelted their penance. The confessional is sacrosanct, so a priest can’t report what they hear in it to the authorities.
Pingback: Finally, A Leader at The Gospel Coalition Speaks | 1st Feline Battalion
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I rarely comment here, but I have been a regular reader for a long time. Many times I’ve read through tears for those who are suffering. I mourn for them, and for the desperation I sense in the Church. It sure isn’t the Church I grew up in. I don’t say that out of some musty longing for tradition…I just feel that things are desperately, desperately wrong in so many places. God help us!
Forgive me for rambling a bit, here is what I’ve de-lurked to say:
-given CJ Mahaney’s long-standing and well-known affinity for “accountability”, and
-given the evidence that he has previously engaged in blackmail of one close to him, and
-given the high profile of those in charge at The Gospel Coalition, and
-given their statements that they are “pastors” to one another…
I’ve been wondering if their dogged defense of CJ might be more out of terror that he will start talking about what was said in some accountability group than out of ignorance or stupidity. I have absolutely no reason to believe this, no evidence, no nothing. Just wondering why otherwise smart, successful people would be such snarling guard dogs for CJ, who is certainly at the tiny end of the Bell Curve around there. I’ve watched people all my life. They don’t act like this for no reason.
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Forgive me, I’ve been reading in order and playing catch-up for a few days. I now see that my question has been raised in the comments on the newest post.
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petrova wrote:
Ah, yes, sin-levelling. The starving child who lifts Donald Trump’s spare change to buy bread is no different than the psychopath who kills little old ladies & eats them for breakfast. Obviously, to the clowns who spew this nonsensical filthiness, a child molester is just a poor, misunderstood soul who needs only to hear the words of the High Patriarchal Poobah of Extraordinary Wodrousness, & he will stop it, right there & then. Because, you know “nobody ever told the poor guy it was wrong”.
That’s a whole lot of the bad-smelling stuff you fall into when you get too close to the north end of a southbound horse. (And they know it, the Poobahs do. But it SOUNDS so nice when it rolls off their silver tongues).
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Oops. That’s wondrousness, not wodrousness. As much as I believe that spellcheck is of the devil, I am a singularly horrible typist…..
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thank you so much for both points! Very thoughtful, encouraging, and thought provoking. I will keep listening to the wise voices here at TWW, and attempt to do my part — and hopefully keep pastoring my congregation as best I can.
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If you love them and respect them as equals in the Kingdom of God, then you will do well as their pastor. Just as we love God because of his great love for us, as shown by Jesus, so they will love you because you love them and are not about being the “boss” of the church.
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Loren Haas wrote:
I thought the same thing.
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dustin germain wrote:
So…you’re upset that men who chose to defend alleged liars/criminals are now looking bad because of their association with these alleged liars/criminals?
This is the real world. Decisions have consequences. If you defend someone who allegedly covered up sexual abuse, and then the cover up is exposed in a court of law, you are going to look bad. So what is it exactly that you want?
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dee wrote:
The Way of the Calvinista.
Amazingly consistent.
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@ Mr.H:
Amen to that.
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jackleeknows wrote:
I’ve always been confused by people who appear to initiate dialogue and subsequently discontinue said dialogue.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I wonder what the tax collectors and sinners hanging out with Jesus had to say about the religious establishment of their day, and how Jesus responded to them.
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__
” ‘Shame & Silence’, ‘Sterlize & Shun’, and a touch of ‘Worm Theology’, perhaps as well?”
sniff, sniff…
PU
proverbial trademarks of SGM?
hmmm…
“You will know them by their fruit”, da Master said?
Make a 501(c)3 Church good and its fruit will be good, or make a 501(c)3 Church bad and its fruit will be bad, for Jesus’ church is recognized by its fruit.
Pass da ‘salt’…
(grin)
Sopy
__
Notes:
@ Mr.H
*
Proverbial Drive Bye’s:
Reference: jackleeknows
Reference: jackleeknows
;~)
—
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Patti wrote:
I disagree. I think a lot of gender comps and social conservatives conflate the term “feminist” to mean things such as pro-choice, bra-burning, pro homosexual marriage, anti-traditional values, anti-Christianity, etc.
I don’t use the term “feminist” to describe myself or my views in part because the term has been co-opted by a lot of secular, vehemently left wing types, who do in fact usually vote Democrat, hate Republicans, scoff at Christianity, hate traditional values, etc.
And yes, contrary to some comments I got here, I have been on feminist sites where the feminists do not approve of women choosing to be stay at home mothers.
A couple of these feminists at one site I was on a few years ago even went so far as to say (in the comment section) that any women who receives a college education but who chooses to marry and have a kid and stay at home and be a house wife is “wasting” her college degree.
I am right wing and a social conservative. While I reject gender complementarianism, I also reject much of far-left type feminism.
When I am talking to other right wingers on political sites, the moment I disagree with gender comp type views, the other conservatives start dismissing me not because I support female equality, but because they automatically assume rejecting gender comp = I am pro-choice, I hate men, love the Democrat Party, believe the US govt (tax payer) should buy birth control for women, that I voted for Obama, I must burn bras, hate traditional values.
I always have to preface my anti-gender comp views on those sites by establishing my right wing cred on such sites, otherwise I get accusations of being a liberal, an Obama supporter, an abortion supporter, a hater of traditional family units, etc.
Many of these same people, though, are opposed to extremist Islamic treatment of women (i.e., the honor killings, gm, forcing them to wear burkhas, not allowing women to receive an education).
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mirele wrote:
I agree that Mohler is extremely prejudiced against adult singleness, though the Bible is fine with adult singleness. The Bible does not place marriage above singlehood or vice versa.
About your quote, the funny thing is that some of the more outspoken women getting these guys in an uproar are married Christian women!
I’m a woman who’s never married, but I don’t have a blog calling churches and pastors out on child sexual abuse or pastoral abuse, it’s married ladies such as Dee, Deb, Julie Anne, and several others.
When male preachers have tried to shut down Julie Anne, they have asked her questions about who her preacher is, and I think one of them asked her if she has her husband’s permission to post on Twitter or a blog or whatever.
It’s ridiculous anyway, as if a grown woman needs her husband’s permission to go on the internet, as though she is five years old!
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mirele wrote:
P.S. on that part of your post.
I’ve wanted to get married for years. Wanting to be married does not make it happen.
I hate how so many married people (and Christians seem even more prone to this), engage in fairy tale thinking, that they think “if you want to be married, it will just happen.”
No, if you are single over 35, getting married does not “just happen” because you want it to, or pray about it. You have to join dating sites and look around.
There is nothing easy about getting married in your 30s and older, unless you have zero standards in men and want to date the unemployed, dope smoking, long-haired guitar player at your local bar and have sex before marriage, then you lots of options
(This is what one of my family members does, sets the bar very low, so she is never short on boyfriends and prospects but after she catches them she complains about how terrible they are).
If, however, you want a guy who is at a minimum average across the board – a guy who is employed (does not need to be wealthy, but just able to pay some bills), trim and in shape and okay looking (not Clark Gable handsome, but not grotesque to look at), someone who is not a drug addict or a jerk, it’s much harder landing a catch.
Guys like Mohler do not appreciate any of this, and I suspect Mohler probably met his wife from the age of 18 to 21, when they were high school or college kids. After you get out of college, your chances of running into suitable mates (even with dating sites) is slim to none.
You can sit there and lecture me til you are blue in the face I am shirking my Christian duty by not marrying, but how do you want me to get a husband, wave a magic wand? God did not give me a wand, sorry.
Also, there is no such thing as a “gift of celibacy.”
I have refrained from sex my whole life because I made a choice to do so and used self discipline. Anyone can do it but most chose not to.
There is not “gifting” in this area by God (and that Christians further equate it to God supernaturally lowering the libido of the single adult), I wish Christians would stop teaching that, because it is not true. I, a single adult, experience the same sexual urges as married people, only I am not acting on them because I chose not to.
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Daisy wrote:
The term “feminist” originated in larger society, so it really couldn’t be coopted by them.
Plus, it is important to understand that inside any group gathered around an ideology or issue, there is a small extremist end and a much larger moderate group. To take up effective criticism of any group, it is vital to focus on the center of the ideology/issue, not it’s outer edges.
Thus it is a waste of energy when secularists criticize all Christians on the basis of, say, Wilson’s Federalist Vision. In the same way, criticism of feminism is ineffective when based on the rhetoric of the extreme feminist bloggers.
Think of all the garbage that various extremist Christian bloggers spout! How often I have had to denounce what they write as I’ve gone through my life as a believer! And I must do so because many secularists also don’t understand this basic principle of criticism: argue the center of the issue/ideology, not it’s extremist ends.
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@ Patrice:
I just do not like to use the term to describe myself, it comes with so much baggage, and I don’t like having to spend 45,675 posts convincing fellow right wingers on other sites I am a right winger as they are, I just am not in total agreement with them on gender roles for ladies.
There is a lady on this site who assumes I am a far left, man hating, family hating feminist liberal all because I don’t like gender complementarian, cannot fathom why some women choose to have more than three kids, etc.
She chooses to characterize my views as being anti-motherhood, which they are not.
It’s the same thing. I tire of having to explain to people on either side of the debate that I am not a man- hating, child- hating, pr-o abortion, anti- stay at home mom type, but I am also opposed to some on the right (including Christians) who insult any and all women who choose to stay single and childless, or who are so by circumstance.
My view is, if a woman of her own free will wants to be a wife and mom, and chooses to do so (she is not conditioned or pressured into either one), that is fine.
But if a woman wants to stay single, or finds herself single because she can’t meet an eligible bachelor, that is okay too.
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Daisy & Patrice:
I happen to choose to be an egalitarian. I believe that equal rights, opportunities, and privileges should apply and be available to all in society, without regard to personal characteristics like race, gender, marital status, etc., etc., etc. For that I am considered liberal, and in the philosophical and historical, that is classically liberal (as in the use of the term in “liberal arts”), though many of my views are libertarian and others conservative. I have been an egalitarian on racial issues since about 1957 or 58, on gender issues since the early 1960s, on gender preference issues since about 1980 (though a heterosexual myself), and on other issues since different times.
I am also an egalitarian on people’s political preferences. I would prefer that voting districts be made as compact as possible and not be gerrymandered, because that disenfranchises people. I would prefer that ballots not indicate party preference and not enable straight ticket voting, and that there be one primary and the top two people would be on the ballot for the general election, without regard to party (parties are not mentioned in the Constitution btw). I vote for people of both parties based on their statements, positions and experience.
Similarly, I believe that men and women doing similar jobs should have similar wages.
I live in a state and a town where few minority men reach age 30 without a criminal record and where overcharging is rife, with a simple shoving match between a man and a woman, no one injured, will get the man, if he is a minority, a felony charge, even if she initiated it. Of all of the black men I encounter in my profession over ten years (and I do not do criminal law), there is only one over the age of 25 without a felony criminal record. To say the least, we have a rigged justice system. It appears to be the same in much of this country, and it is both a violation of the American ideals I was taught as a child and a sin against God.
I see much that disturbs me as I work with cases that involve getting appropriate jobs for people so that they can support their children, as required by law. “Temp to hire” is generally a lie — the temp agency will see that the employee never gets to the 90th day when they would be full-time employed by the client instead of the temp agency. To me, that is a violation of Biblical teaching; it is unequal treatment.
I do not believe that being famous, rich, well-educated, or of any particular faith should give you more rights or status in society than those who are not those things. Jesus and the OT prophets taught against privilege, but Christians violate those teachings continually in our society.
I have heard people say you cannot be a Democrat and a Christian. And I say, yes, but you cannot be a Republican and a Christian either, because when you give loyalty to a party and its platform, there are things in there that are contradictory to the teachings of Jesus.
So, equality and liberty, not masculinism or feminism, or any other ism that seeks to divide.
Pardon my rant.
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@ Daisy:
Yeah, I totally understand not wanting to take the label because of the baggage. I’ve had that internal debate about the label “Christian”, too, actually, and for the same reasons. And ISTM, it’s largely because we do not know the rules of proper critique. When we misuse the extremes of a stance, we make it a caricature, thus the debate is degraded and all those involved are dehumanized.
And when someone does it this way, everyone eventually does it. Thus you get the crazy from extreme complementarians as well as from extreme feminists. As you say, it’s endlessly tiresome. I have had to quit listening to poor criticism because it’s a complete waste of energy. I wish so much that we’d work it differently.
And yes, I completely agree, women who are single, who are married with or without children and who stay home or don’t stay home—it’s fine or not, depending on the hearts involved. My best to you, Daisy!
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@ An Attorney:
It’s funny about the feminism = liberal thing. I suppose it was true when it began in the 60s, since it was a rejection of some essential in the “traditional”. But that’s not how it is anymore, at least not outside religious authoritarian structures (which always seem ~50 yrs behind).
And oh yes, today’s reality for black men is awful! I know several neighborhood boys, who mow my lawn, help me in the garden now/then, and walk my dog. They come and sit with me on the stoop and they freely chat about this/that, happy for a listening ear. They are dear boys and I worry about them. I can only imagine how their mothers/fathers feel!
Our country has been in a long decline regarding civic awareness and responsibility and the disintegration is now wildly apparent. I think it started when our businesses/banks lost any sense of responsibility of fair wage for fair work, maintaining ethics for workers’ communities/environment, etc. Power-hungry business people worked themselves into the gov’t and loosened/lost banking regs, established poor trade agreements with unprotected outsourcing, methodically worked tax laws to their favor, etc. Thus our gov’t turned from democracy and now we have gerrymandering, TTP, NSA over-reach, etc. The lack of ethics has subsequently spread into every field/endeavor, even the pulpit.
The chronic complaining of the conservatives about the loss of ethics is true, just not in the ways that they see it, nor for the reasons they think. IMO.
I enjoy your rants, An Attorney, partly because I’m of the same opinion on most points lol
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dustin germain wrote:
Good heavens!! You really MUST stop reading National Enquirer, yean; we haven’t tarred & feathered a single TGC member around here.
(Now that Dustin has mentioned the subject, however, I know where we can get some tar. Has anyone any 😉 fowl to offer up?)
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“Bible ethics” hahahahahah is he kidding thats funny coming from that crowd.
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May I ask a question these full grown men expect an abused kid to sit in the same room with the person that molested them and listen to the molester say he/she is sorry then said kid is suppose to forgive them and reconcile?
That is one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Seriously is this what they actually expect and they call that bible leadership. Gag.
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“mirele wrote:
The second is related: Mohler calls “deliberate singleness on the part of those who know they have not been given the gift of celibacy is, at best, a neglect of Christian responsibility.” (August 20, 2004)”
HA HA HA HA That is just silly on its face, “Christian responsibility”, like protecting kids from pedophiles or speaking up when there is rampant abuse in a system? Or maybe being accurate when dealing with subjects like science. O wait that does not count. Some of us had no choice in being single we were too busy caring for family members one after the other and really did not have time. Oh and in most evangelical singles groups you better have your 1040 form ready if you’re a guy and your doctors note saying you are a virgin if you’re a woman. That type of stuff is an insult to both groups. I gave up looking long ago because I got tired of being looked at like I was some vile monster or just a toad.
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brian wrote:
With me, it was “Growing up Martian” as a psychologically-isolated kid genius and getting the emotional/social retardation side effect HARD. By the time the rest of my personality had grown up, I had aged well beyond any marriageable age.
I’d like to see someone reverse those two (requiring a doctor’s certificate of virginity from the guy) and see what happens.
By “have your 1040 form ready” do you mean all they’re looking at in a guy is his money? Like some gold digger? I wasn’t a giant brain in a jar, and I’m not going to be a bottomless ATM.
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Daisy wrote:
If they’re lecturing you about Singleness with wagging finger and God-talk, they got married at 18 themselves. It’s always those who’ve never been there who are free with the Advice From On High for those who have.
As a possessor of a Y chromosome and the accompanying magic wand, I can tell you getting given a wand is not all it’s cracked up to be. (And if I waved it around, it sure wouldn’t make Godly Women Submit to my Manly Manliness — more likely it’d get me registered as a sex offender.)
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zooey111 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gW2vVM2WAc
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I had a long diatribe but I have learned well from the evangelical faith, one does not share one’s pain and I am utterly convinced the unpardonable sin is to actually really need Jesus. Jesus cant forgive you for needing Him, even when He says you need Him to be forgiven, it is the carrot and the stick and that is the point. That is what drives people crazy.
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brian wrote:
Which is a major problem in a “church” organisation, of whatever kind, that – for all its fashionable doctrine or other spiritually worthy façade – does not actually have Jesus. Somebody once said that a church can be as straight as a gun-barrel doctrinally and just as empty spiritually. The person who comes in needing Jesus just exposes the emptiness of the organisation.
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