After reading this post, it’s obvious that TGC co-founders Tim Keller and Don Carson have a lot more explaining to do. I read their post, “On Some Recent Changes at TGC,” and find it woefully inadequate, especially after reading what Tullian Tchividjian had to say.

Dr. Fundystan,

I finished Prodigal God two days ago so I was SHOCKED when I read what Tim Keller had to say about all of this. It is quite confusing.

Isn’t it absolutely shocking that they send Tullian packing on short notice, but didn’t send CJ anywhere and he is still scheduled to speak next month at the TGC-sponsored Anchored conference in Arizona: http://arizona.thegospelcoalition.org/events/event/9/anchored-conference/2014-06-20

(Yea, I know CJ voluntarily left, but whatever, they didn’t ask him to leave and they should have.)

Oh, rats, ya’ll, missed the special they were having for the conference:

Use the code “TGCAZ” for the special registration rate of $125 until May 1st!

SICK, SICK, SICK!!!! @@ – rolling eyeballs

Kids are getting abused, leadership is covering for it and they’re concerned about obscure points of dogma? The Gospel Coalition seems nice.

Just as an FYI – I sent an email to TGCAZ when the verdict was announced and again when Mahaney disappeared off TGC members page asking about his inclusion as the #2 listed speaker. No response as yet.

I have some good news. My father woke up from the fugue state (that’s the best way to describe it) and was watching baseball on TV in his hospital room when my brother went by after dinner. Dad knew where he was, he wanted his dentures, he wanted food and he also wanted his clothes and shoes so he could go home. That last is notgoing to happen right yet–you can tell where he got bruised up on his face, apparently from a fall yesterday morning. My brother brought over the dentures but left the clothes in the car. I went and saw my dad at 9 pm and he knew who I was.

Thank you everyone who prayed!

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Kids are getting abused, leadership is covering for it and they’re concerned about obscure points of dogma? The Gospel Coalition seems nice.

So much is “Gospelly” except for “the least of these.” Hmmm.

ps. I forgot to add (I believe ed. note) that it purchased internships for Mahaney friends and family members, the ones that fled with him to Louisville.

“Toward the end of the interview, Tullian explained that no one knows for certain what Mahaney knew”.

Isn’t this sentence the crux of the matter? It’s what makes it so difficult to discuss because this isn’t known. It is neither possible to defend nor accuse Mahaney. It is only possible to marshall evidence for or against what is more likely to have been the case. Apart from that, it it down to Mahaney’s integrity.

I’d like to second the comment that there may be more important things to discuss at the moment than minute differences over sanctification. Perhaps it might help to actually try to be sanctified in general first, and worry about the details later.

@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
Glad to hear your good news. Strength to you.

Unless something out of the ordinary was going on, there is no way that CJM did not know. He knew every detail about the organization and what was happening there. It is why his relatives were in positions to control things and report to him. It was a very hierarchical organization and CJM was at the pinnacle. Nothing was done contrary to his directives and without his approval. The very structure of the organization means the cover up of abuse lies at his feet. A good investigator and DA could easily prove that up in court if witnesses don't lie or conveniently lose their memory.

The Tchividjian are doing a great job as a very small minority of big-name Christian* leaders who speak the truth and stand up for what’s right. Gives a salty skeptic like me some hope that there is some truth in Christianity*…though most of the leadership in “church” does a good job of placing doubt in the truthfulness of their “gospel”…TGC demonstrates the ugly side of “church” and why many run from it. If you can’t speak the clear truth about child abuse, then you can’t be trusted as an honest broker on anything else.

Got one stuck in mod, I think b/c I used the word j#rk to describe Joe Carter LOL.

On the skepticism aside, I have been encouraged recently by my personal studies of the historicity of a literal Jesus Christus or Chrestus. Very little doubt that Jesus walked this planet and was executed by Pontius Pilate. The Annals by the Roman senator and historian Tacitus, along with quite a few other extant works, corroborate some basic and key claims of the Gospel accounts regarding a person of Jesus and of Pilate and of the execution.

I am finding out that child abuse has gone on in the ranks of Evangelicalism and other Christian* sects for many years…just like it did in the Catholic Church.

Previous to Sandusky and the blogs and the RCC child abuse scandals…many Pastors and churches simply swept the stuff under the rug, didn’t report and often counseled families to not press charges and handle the issue in-house…especially when the Abuser/Criminal would cop to the abuse and cooperate.

Now these Pastors and Churches are scared to death b/c they know that if a Victim comes forward and lawyers up, they are in big trouble b/c they know they did wrong and will suffer loss.

I am aware of many stories now where this has happened…and I am confident it is more pervasive than most think. The Trend of sex abuse lawsuits and even criminal actions against the Evangelical Church is in the early stages.

Alex wrote:

When I took a personal stand against Child Abuse and corruption

Alex wrote:

It is probably the case that others who support CJ Mahaney have similar issues they have dealt with…and they are afraid they might be next.

I hear “corruption” in the first quote. Not just child abuse but also corruption. In the second quote you talk about “similar issues” to CJM’s. So we have been assuming that child abuse is the issue, but that may not be the only problem. In fact, it might not even be the main issue. And perhaps an investigation regarding child abuse coverup might indeed reveal other stuff that the rest of the gang might also be guilty of. I was having trouble thinking that all those other folks would be in favor of child abuse cover up.

I am so glad! “He knew who I was”. What precious words. Thanks for letting us know.

mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

I have some good news. My father woke up from the fugue state (that’s the best way to describe it) and was watching baseball on TV in his hospital room when my brother went by after dinner. Dad knew where he was, he wanted his dentures, he wanted food and he also wanted his clothes and shoes so he could go home. That last is notgoing to happen right yet–you can tell where he got bruised up on his face, apparently from a fall yesterday morning. My brother brought over the dentures but left the clothes in the car. I went and saw my dad at 9 pm and he knew who I was.
Thank you everyone who prayed!

Part 1 of2

Back to the Tullian T. thing and the doctrinal differences. No. this does not seem to be the only issue. I am not saying that. And no, I do not think they got rid of him at this very instant over doctrine. I am saying, however, that this is an issue that must not be ignored.

I gather from some comments that some people do not think that the doctrinal wars over grace and law are much of a big deal. I am not a theologian, and if some theologian comes along and says that the two positions are not that far apart, they may not (or may) be at the specific explanatory level for theological debate. But the way they work out in churches and denominations can be huge. The idea of christian perfection. Even if people say that perfection cannot be attained but that one should work/strive toward it. Whether one is talking about the holiness concept of a second work of grace which is then followed by a highly restrictive rule-driven life, or whether one omits any second blessing and goes straight to the rules, the resultant life style is very similar. Think IFB on steroids.

This may not (yet) be such a big issue with SBC and other calvinista-influenced groups, but there are signs that this may be coming. Increasing rules for how to live in practically every area of life. Ideas of separation from those who do not live by those specific rules, including but not limited to some homeschool curricula. Has it, or has it not, come to women with either doilies or bandanas on their heads, for example? Which books to read, or not. Resurrected battles over beverage alcohol and the tithe. Where to go to school, or not. Raging preoccupation with certain specific moral issues in society. Neglect of important issues (child abuse, unemployment, single parent homes and such) in order to focus on certain favorite issues like which one of a married keeps the books . The list goes on.

This is all part of the idea of christian perfection or the striving for perfection which is at the heart of the sanctification battle.

Ken wrote:

“Toward the end of the interview, Tullian explained that no one knows for certain what Mahaney knew”.

Isn’t this sentence the crux of the matter? It’s what makes it so difficult to discuss because this isn’t known. It is neither possible to defend nor accuse Mahaney. It is only possible to marshall evidence for or against what is more likely to have been the case. Apart from that, it it down to Mahaney’s integrity.

I’d like to second the comment that there may be more important things to discuss at the moment than minute differences over sanctification. Perhaps it might help to actually try to be sanctified in general first, and worry about the details later.

Ha, good comment. And what’s the matter? I mean what is preventing the proponent of biblical manhood from manning up? Lack of courage? Testosterone?

Meanwhile he’s MIA “has anyone seen CJ Mahaney in the flesh lately?”

Maybe he’ll use the same excuse of his wife’s birthday that he used last year (I’m surmising) to avoid mingling with some regular folks in an uncontrolled environment – that of his wife’s birthday which occurs on June 1st.

CJ always uses his family as though it’s always a legitimate reason for him to do something, as though the importance of his family were on per with the Lord and His will similar to the importance Catholics place on “church tradition.” So, he thinks spending time with, or doing something for his family, will always exonerate him. Heck, he is totally dependent, always has been, on his family to provide him with his “qualified to lead” cover. Now he’ll use them more and more for his “I wasn’t available for comment” because of some family need or function, when in truth, he still sees himself as completely unaccountable to anyone for his actions.

Unaccountable to anyone other than his wife. What’s her name again? Dorothy Sandusky-“Mahaney?

dee wrote:

@ singleman:
I will be discussing that post, along with the Christian Post article that featured my debate with Joe Carter on Friday. I believe they knew that a controversy would be brewing and the Joe Carter was tasked with attacking the bloggers. He did it so poorly.

Thanks, Dee. I’m looking forward to that.

@ NJ:

I have worked with churches where there was an issue of inappropriate sex (more often with an adult employee or congregant). When you find sexual misconduct in the pastorate, you will generally find other misconduct, including financial misconduct, and also issues about abuse of authority, taking over authority beyond that provided by the church organizational documents. The three go hand-in-hand, and rarely do you find one with out at least one of the other two. And if you find inappropriate sex, you will almost always find both of the other two.

A note on that. That CJ had the money to give to SBTS suggests financial abuse of the church. That CJ acted to remove Tomzak etc, suggests abuse of authority and/or organization. And we know about the enabling of sexual abuse.

@ Ken:
Tim Challies had his own share of controversy recently. He recently wrote a post depicting Teresa of Avila as a false teacher and quoted extensively from a Wikipedia article on Teresa without citing it. He has since amended the post, but only after getting called out by Warren Throckmorton and Collin Garbarino. Not only that, but Challies’ comment moderator, David Kjos, called Garbarino a “contrarian troll” and blocked him.

Evidently Tim Challies learned little, if anything, from the Mark Driscoll plagiarism scandal. As for David Kjos, perhaps he’s learned too much from Joe Carter.

As I listened to the Janet Mefferd show and the interview with Tullian, I was shouting yes, finally! I applaud Tullian for his stand, although it may and has cost him, it was the right thing to do. It’s sad to me that doing the right thing among Christian organizations costs just as much or more than doing the right thing in a secular setting. That is something I will never be able to accept.

The Gospel Coalition preaches on the law and doing things to please God, but yet they have helped to hide CJ, helped him continue in his lies, and are still apparently doing so. That is insanity at it’s height.

@ An Attorney:
Lol 😀

I thought about adding a little apology for your sake 😉

Paula wrote:

its becoming clear CJ has dung his own grave.

Dung? Was that deliberate, Paula? 🙂

We have here an expression to p1ss on one’s chips (“chips” being the correct term for “fries”), which is a cruder and occasionally funnier version of to shoot oneself in the foot.

But to dung one’s own grave is better still – is there any way we can make this go viral?

@ brad/futuristguy:

The 1-minute difference in timestamps suggests that great minds were thinking alike there, Brad…

@ brad/futuristguy:
It was a mistake of course, but its kind of a smelly hole he’s in so in a sense, it fits… :-O

@ singleman:
He also didn’t read her writing, which basically means that he probably heard that she was a mystical Catholic woman and decided she must be a false teacher. Because we all know that religion is all about cold hard facts and logic, and women are by definition incapable of teaching.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

And there’s no denying it; traditional English-cooked beef is like cardboard.

On reflection, I should take it further. It was an English comedy writer who said that to the English, food is merely an obstacle to good table-manners. This is both true, and a national embarrassment.

In Other News – yet somewhat related…

Earlier 'Ive shared about how a Cowbird laid an egg in the nest House Finches built on my front door. You can see some pictures of the nest with the Cowbird and Finch eggs, although after they hatched I've only taken videos. The nest is now lined with dung (I’ll add a new pic asap) which I shall explain to everyone’s delight I’m sure: https://twitter.com/thebirdiesnest

Little background: The brown speckled egg in the nest is that of the Brown-headed Cowbird, which is parasitic and lays its eggs in the nests of other birds. It doesn't incubate or feed its young. In my case, the Cowbird apparently didn’t survive because hatchlings need to be fed a diet of insects to survive. The House Finch feeds its young on seeds & vegetation only. Anyway…so they hatched. They’re totally cute and will soon leave the nest. I've been sharing pics with my kids and one of my daughters mentioned all the poop that’s now lined the side of the nest. It is kinda gross. Some of it has dripped down on my front door. But whatever. It’s nature. And we all poop.

In response to my daughter's comment about all the poop (I send pics and video updates to my kids (and vice versa) having created a Group Chat that’s always open using Whatsapp – I recommend it!) I did a little research and discovered this: http://10000birds.com/what-do-nesting-birds-do-with-all-that-poop.htm

Don’t miss the short little video at the end in the above link. It’s a must see.

So, now you know some ‘types’ poop on their own nest; some ‘dung their own’.

Oh snap! Full circle!

Nancy wrote:

Child abuse is endemic in our culture, both sexual abuse and non-sexual abuse. If one looks at sexual abuse by priests in the catholic church one finds that the actual percentage of priests who abused is small compared to the priests who did not.

This is an important point. I read (I think at Triablogue) that up to 2011, around 6% of Catholic priests had been found to be involved in abuse. That means about one in twenty. But nineteen out of twenty had not, but to hear some atheists talking you would imagine virtually the entire church was guilty of this.

In the late 90’s, it is estimated that some 15% of children going through the avowedly secular American education system had been subjected to abuse.

There is a tradition of abuse running through the British public (that is, private, non-state) education system.

Theodore Dalrymple (actually Anthony Daniels, a former psychologist) has also written of the systematic abuse and neglect of children in secular Britain, often in the form of the breakdown of the ‘traditional’ family, sometimes aided by the State itself.

Deb wrote:

@ Nick Bulbeck:

I was going to let the misspelling of ‘dug’ stand, but I took the high road…

That still doesn’t mean you don’t have to be careful where you walk ….

Nancy wrote:

The bad boys need dealt with, but let us not think that every evangelical pastor is a potential criminal.

They already think that every Catholic priest is a more-than-potential criminal.

@ Deb:
I created the Twitter account for @thebirdiesnest because it was tweeting so much, it deserved it’s own account! 😉

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

traditional English-cooked beef is like cardboard.

Sorry to hear that. But have you taken a good look at what the French supposedly eat? I used to watch the Julia Child french cooking show. If she was correct, the French eat animal body parts that we do not eat and would not eat. And do it with a flair and charge a lot for it. Go figure.

Nancy wrote:

Nick Bulbeck wrote:
traditional English-cooked beef is like cardboard.
Sorry to hear that. But have you taken a good look at what the French supposedly eat? I used to watch the Julia Child french cooking show. If she was correct, the French eat animal body parts that we do not eat and would not eat. And do it with a flair and charge a lot for it. Go figure.

And northern Chinese say Cantonese will eat anything and everything on four legs except the table (and they’re not too sure about the table).

dee wrote:

mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

It would be highly inappropriate to give Mahaney an honored platform

Inappropriate? Since when has inappropriate mattered to this crowd? They, after all, hold the keys to the gospel™.

Because there can be NO Salvation outside of TGC and SGM (HUMBLY, of course).

@ Ken:

Do you understand the context behind this?

The better question is (as you basically said), does Challies?

Aargh–sorry, Dee/Deb, messed up the formatting yet again!

Patricia Hanlon wrote:

At what point do we begin to call these movements–YRR and TGC, et. al–what they really are: neo-fundamentalism? That’s certainly not what I signed up for when I became a Christian.

Neo-fundamentalism is such a good thing to call it. That is great. Not your parent’s fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for a new generation. Cool fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for the (choose one of the following): authentic believer, discerning believer, committed believer, theologically-minded believer, elect believer, covenant believer, spiritually mature believer, bible-believing believer, set aside and sanctified believer, god fearing believer, etc.

$19.95 gets you the T shirt and a set of multicolored bible markers.

How many people would rather have that than Jesus?

Nancy wrote:

Nick Bulbeck wrote:
traditional English-cooked beef is like cardboard.
Sorry to hear that. But have you taken a good look at what the French supposedly eat? I used to watch the Julia Child french cooking show. If she was correct, the French eat animal body parts that we do not eat and would not eat. And do it with a flair and charge a lot for it. Go figure.

While we’re on the subject, I’m in the process of making tonight’s “Toad-in-the-hole” – sausages baked in a flour/egg/milk batter. I know what’s in the roast potatoes, the roast parsnips, the greenery (peas and French beans), the garlic mushrooms and the red wine jus.

But I’ve no idea what’s in the sausages. Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

@ burnrnorton: The fact that Tim Challies used Wikipedia as a significant source for his post, whether properly cited or nor, reflects poorly on his research. After all, this is the same man who sanctimoniously lectured us how to think "biblically" about C.J. Mahaney and SGM.

Acg116 wrote:

dee wrote:
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Yes, absolutely. Prodigal God, for example, seems to say exactly what Tullian is saying.
Yet, Keller is speaking out strongly against Tullian’s views. Keller has shown that his moderate approach to his Calvinist beliefs is merely a ruse. He is far more hardline than we could have predicted.

That thought has occured to me….the cynic in me thinks if he showed his true stripes (this is supposition, to be fair, I don’t know his true stripes), the progressive New Yorkers would be leaving the pews. NYC is the reason the rest of he neocals tolerate his theistic evolutionary views (believe al mohler said something along the lines of that if you hold this view, you almost deny the gospel)..to have a guy that knows how to reach New Yorkers is a coup for them. My opinion only…

This just depresses the h-e-double-hockey-sticks outta me 🙁 Keller has been, for me, the one lone voice in this movement I’ve been able to listen to up until now. No longer. Prodigal God was awesome. But I can’t imagine buying any more of his books.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Assuming three days stay and an out-of-area con, you’re looking at high three figures/low four figures for travel, hotels, and food. The low three figures assumes special convention discounts on the hotel and cheap coach flights reserved months in advance. “All those BOOKS!” are a wild card, but judging from my own time in SF & Furry cons’ dealers’ rooms, you’re looking at an additional low three figures — more if you have a fanboy’s sales resistance to his obsession.

So let’s assume total costs between one and two thousand if flying in from out-of-area, under one thousand if driving or in-area.

The hotel rooms average ~$150 a night and it’s three nights. The light rail to / from the airport costs $2 each way. And given that the hotel is just across the street from Symphony Hall (which is part of the Convention Center complex), it’s mere steps away from the actual Convention Center.

It’s entirely possible the rooms are heavily discounted as it’s June in Phoenix, not exactly a heavy travel time, and over a weekend. I suspect whatever portion of the convention center that has been rented may have been slightly discounted** –again, it’s really hot here in June and out-of-towners probably don’t want to be walking around.

And don’t be fooled, this is big money we’re talking about here. According to the convention center site, the Anchored Conference is expecting *4000* people. If all those people bought tickets at the heavily-discounted $125 price, that’s $500,000, at a minimum (and that’s before books, CDs, etc.) It could go up to $800,000 if all the tickets were purchased at the street price of $200 (currently, the ticket purchase price is at $175). There are seven speakers (including C.J. Mahaney and Bob Kauflin). I have to wonder what their honorarium is!

Anonymous wrote:

I am not going to invest too much energy in trying to prove CJ knew. Of course he knew way back in 1992. But Layman may come out and swear that CJ didn’t know.

CJ was the Apostle of SGM. He was in charge of its doctrines and practice etc. he is responsible for the things done at CLC.

Also, he knew of all the stories and reports over the years that were in the public. He could have dealt with this years ago.

He allowed this to drag out, allowed or urged his supporters to discredit victims etc.

I don’t believe he ‘has’ anything on others, and I don’t believe $200,000 is enough to buy anyone.

People back their friends, and when their friends get shown up, they feel attacked, too. The defensive reaction is understandable, but the more facts tumble out and the more public opinion continues to move on this, the more that defensive reaction may wane.

You’ve somewhat sealed the deal for me re: CJ. I’ve never been a huge fan of the “he had to know” idea when impugning someone, because the stakes are too high for conjecture. That being said, let’s assume he didn’t know concurrently. He’s known for as long as the blogs have been around. I think he’d have done himself and his ministry a huge favor to begin meeting with these people right then and there, and then make whatever restitution he could, pledge to cooperate with civil authorities, and publicly repent (I don’t expect joe small town preacher to do this, he owes me nothing, but when you make yourself out to be a model church, and you sell books, and you tell everyone else how to be a Christian, you forgo IMO the right to be private about big areas of sin).

As I have written elsewhere, Tim Challies’ blog has never been all that discerning. He may need to start looking for other employment…perhaps the painting business with Grant Layman or maybe as a sacker at Whole Foods in Gaithersburg…so he could serve the other pastors who feel the need to sell their homes in order to move closer to said grocery store (under the auspices of helping migraines…presumably caused by gluten instead of maybe the stress of covering up abuse).

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet.

http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney

@ Patrice:

Paula wrote:
“My hunch is its tied to money.”

Patrice wrote:
“I think that for some, position is more important than money.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think they just want one of these hats.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nicene+creed&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=XjR-U5GyIoSeyATM-IDgDw&sqi=2&pjf=1&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=623#q=holy+council+of+Nicaea+&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=khR2ya3eGf5R_M%253A%3BINRpUVuQYRNyBM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mormonwiki.com%252Fwiki%252Fimages%252Fc%252Fc1%252FCouncil_of_Nicea.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mormonwiki.com%252FThe_Nicene_Creed_and_the_Nature_of_God%3B1600%3B1067

CJ makes a statement!!!!!! (Julie Anne posted it on Twitter)
http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney?utm_content=buffer9a7d6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Still Soarin’ wrote:

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet.

http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney

I can’t comment on the events but I totally deny the allegations made about the events. Quick, spot the contradiction!

@ elastigirl:
*snark* I can see that lol!

@ Still Soarin’:

Even in that short two-para post, Mahaney cannot resist a dig at those who’ve made his life uncomfortable. Right after expressing grief for the victims, he writes: “I’m saddened, too, by the confusion and damage that has resulted from public comments and speculation about these events.” And then he conflates the two “griefs” by saying he will rely on God to fix these injustices.

Even when he’s trying, this guy is so full of himself that he confuses his knee scrape with someone else’s rape.

Nancy wrote:

Neo-fundamentalism is such a good thing to call it. That is great. Not your parent’s fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for a new generation. Cool fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for the (choose one of the following): authentic believer, discerning believer, committed believer, theologically-minded believer, elect believer, covenant believer, spiritually mature believer, bible-believing believer, set aside and sanctified believer, god fearing believer, etc.

Theologically and sociologically unsophisticated (uneducated? uncaring? tolerant of pedophilia?) believer.

@ NJ: Is this it?

Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made. – Otto von Bismarck

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/o/ottovonbis161318.html#KPV4MKy8yjSyrjxM.99

That may be it. At first I was thinking Churchill. Yeah, it was either Bismarck or some more recent public figure paraphrasing him.

An Attorney; ever had haggis? How about chitlins?

“Even with those constraints, however, let me be clear about this: I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit.”
–C.J. Mahaney

Ok, it appears he has thrown down the gauntlet. We’ll see what Layman, et. al. have to say. I should go check Brent Detwiler’s blog.

Personally, no one should listen to anything Mahaney has to say unless he FIRST removes himself from the position of being a “pastor.” But that’s obviously not going to happen because he’s in denial.

He can deny all he wants until the cows come home. He’s not going to be able to create his own truth and expect others to follow it this time.

Sorry Pal, you’re only fooling yourself this time.

C.J. Mahaney needs to man up and stop hiding behind contradictory statements, lawyer weasel words and the statute of limitations. Additionally, the people who supported Mahaney all these decades, the people who have provided cover, they need to come out and tell what they knew, when they knew it and when they told Mahaney. “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God…” 1 Peter 4:17a

NJ wrote:

“Even with those constraints, however, let me be clear about this: I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit.”
–C.J. Mahaney
Ok, it appears he has thrown down the gauntlet. We’ll see what Layman, et. al. have to say. I should go check Brent Detwiler’s blog.

Fact is he never cared about the children or the predators.

What he conspired to do is protect his organization.

And how does this wash with what is contained in Brent’s docs and what Mahaney said while blackmailing Larry Tomzcak?

Was CJ concerned about the victims? Was he concerned about Larry’s son or dealing appropriately with confession of sin that had been shared in confidence with him? Was he concerned about the victims' families, or did he express concern for the lives of others in the church?

No. He did not. He was only concerned about protecting his self-interests. Which is all this statement is about, too.

So what is charity fraud, and how does that relate to PDI/$GM/CJ?

Perhaps the FBI/IRS can shed some light on the subject…I know it is way above my head. Facts and figures, real people getting abused, real people covering it up, dates, places, historical facts. Now you can do your best at micro-managing BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, there are just to many variables over time.

That pesky money trail is so hard to hide. I can feel the energy of people, task force(s), spending time putting the pieces of this puzzle together. Can you feel the heat?

And, PDI/$GM/CJ, when you least expect it, BUT GOD! (Ps 2:4)

Still Soarin’ wrote:

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet.
http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney

So let me get this straight. Mahaney never conspired to protect a child predator, according to him. But there is a tape that exits that has Mahaney demanding Larry Tomczak do something that CJ wants done or Mahaney will reveal what Larry’s son shared in confidence to him. There is the NM situation. There were other cases of pastors supporting perps in court and not supporting victims.

Is it all in the semantics, the wording – conspired — child — predator?

Does the amount of times it happened not matter?

Even if there is not conspiracy(?), how does a pastor not see the harm that these actions have inflicted over and over again? Add to this, the horrific counseling that many people endured from SGM pastors regarding domestic abuse and mental health issues. Is there nothing that Mahaney and other leaders in SGM need to repent of?

I believe some leaders from PDI/SGM have repented. I believe many have not, and simply don’t believe they have done anything wrong. I hope they see the light soon.

Big question – Is Mahaney loving his neighbor as himself?

aaaaaaand now JohnFreakingPiper enters the fray with this tweet from hell:

“John Piper ‏@JohnPiper 3m

Abishai: David, shall I strike your enemy? David: No. The Lord will strike him. 1 Samuel 26:8-11 = Romans 12:19 = 1 Peter 2:23”

Patrice wrote:

@ Still Soarin’:
Even in that short two-para post, Mahaney cannot resist a dig at those who’ve made his life uncomfortable. Right after expressing grief for the victims, he writes: “I’m saddened, too, by the confusion and damage that has resulted from public comments and speculation about these events.” And then he conflates the two “griefs” by saying he will rely on God to fix these injustices.
Even when he’s trying, this guy is so full of himself that he confuses his knee scrape with someone else’s rape.

Exactly. I think these thoughts of his aren’t “original” in the sense they aren’t stemming from Mahaney’s personal convictions or his relationship with the Lord. Instead, I think Mahaney has been provoked by Tullian Tchividjian who has stated, “Give me a break. These people, they’re family. Of course he knew,” Tchividjian told The Christian Post. “C. J. was, for many years, the micro-managing head of the organization and nothing happened under the umbrella of Sovereign Grace that he wasn’t made aware of, so for anyone to say, ‘Well he didn’t know,’ that’s totally naive.”

This is simply one of Mahaney’s false smear campaigns, in my view. I think the motivation behind his denial is to make Tullian’s words to seem like an “accusation,” a word CJ used in his statement. That’s the “between the lines” message here.

Wonder if he emailed his buddies and said, “Hey guys, I’m posting a statement. Please saddle up the horses and get ready to circle the wagons for me again. Much appreciated.”

TJY:
I Sammy 26:10
And David said, As the LORD lives, the LORD will strike him, “OR” his day will come to die, “OR” he will go down into battle and perish.

I Sammy chapter 31 for the final answer, notice, Jonathan (Saul’s son) was collateral damage…

HOWEVER, we are on this side of the cross and Romans 13 is a fact, OuchCaBible, enjoy everyone!

Oh, oh! I am in moderation. I gave away the secrets of a pig pickin and haplessly mentioned barbecue. IMO my epistle will never see the light of day. I will be fortunate to not get banned for life. Mea maxima culpa.

@ Taylor Joy:

So who’s the enemy Piper’s referring to? SGM victim supporters? Anti-SGM bloggers? Tullian Tchividjian? All of the above?

And per the 1 Peter reference, I’ve seen quite a bit of “reviling in return” from Neo-Calvinists about this situation, so Piper might want to turn the spotlight on his buddies.

Hester wrote:

@ Taylor Joy:
So who’s the enemy Piper’s referring to? SGM victim supporters? Anti-SGM bloggers? Tullian Tchividjian? All of the above?
And per the 1 Peter reference, I’ve seen quite a bit of “reviling in return” from Neo-Calvinists about this situation, so Piper might want to turn the spotlight on his buddies.

. . . and on himself!?

I couldn’t help it: “Taylor Joy Young ‏@TaylorJoyYoung 13m

@JohnPiper Except when the Lord DOESN’T, and then more kids get abused. 1 Cor 5:12-13 seems appropriate. #IStandWithSGMVictims”

An Attorney wrote:

Nancy wrote:
Neo-fundamentalism is such a good thing to call it. That is great. Not your parent’s fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for a new generation. Cool fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for the (choose one of the following): authentic believer, discerning believer, committed believer, theologically-minded believer, elect believer, covenant believer, spiritually mature believer, bible-believing believer, set aside and sanctified believer, god fearing believer, etc.
Theologically and sociologically unsophisticated (uneducated? uncaring? tolerant of pedophilia?) believer.

I don’t think that sociologically unsophisticated or uneducated people rank with the rest of those characteristics. I’m not sure what exactly is meant by those connotations, but I know many people who might fall into someone’s definition of those two categories, but I wouldn’t say they are bad, evil, or sinful. Many of them might be much wiser, kinder, and loving than some of the most educated and socially sophisticated out in the wide world.

Patrice wrote:

And then he conflates the two “griefs” by saying he will rely on God to fix these injustices.

Cee Jay is as right as rain on that one. Karma & her sister Comeuppance are relentless. They are like James Cameron’s first T-1000 model. They will not pause nor will they stop until Themis’s balances are reset.

@ Deb:

Um, this article is awesome!!! I can’t believe I’m about to say this, but…Go, CT!

Bridget wrote:

I don’t think that sociologically unsophisticated or uneducated people rank with the rest of those characteristics. I’m not sure what exactly is meant by those connotations, but I know many people who might fall into someone’s definition of those two categories, but I wouldn’t say they are bad, evil, or sinful. Many of them might be much wiser, kinder, and loving than some of the most educated and socially sophisticated out in the wide world.

Those were optional alternatives, not a composite. And some of those fundamentalist preacher boys do not seem to have the common sense sociological sophistication of my 80 IQ friend. I was not putting down the people, but the way their pastors seem to think of them.

CJM statement is just semantics. That or he’s clueless to what the accusations are against him. Did you know about the abuse or not? And did you or did you not work prevent such information from being reported to the authorities? Yes or no.

@ An Attorney: That’s the dilemma for CJ supporters: he was a micromanager, and therefore it will be very hard to establish that he could not have known about these abuses.

If you’re going to be the micromanagy control freak, then when things go really bad, you own it.

It was his church, his handpicked leaders, his culture, his tactics that carried the day. The issue is not an abuser; the issue is many abusers, and a systematic institutional disregard for basic ethics that allowed abusers to operate, and also denied justice to victims.

You know what strikes me about the response from so many of the leaders and churches involved in hiding abuse, abusing or ignoring the problem, is that they don’t really seem to believe in the god they worship. The Christian deity has been described as knowing everything, seeing everything, and they still ignore Luke 17:2’s directions. The God of the Christians seems to get really peeved about people messing with kids, at least in that verse, yet not one of them really seems to even consider that.

Hmm. Makes you think.

Greetings Dee and Deb,

I was perusing some SBC pastor blogs today to see if a mention of ANYTHING Mahaney since there have been crickets for past several years. Lo and behold, SGM was actually mentioned– but not in the way I expected. Those pastors dance around it, you know. Even more interesting was one of the blog moderators mentioned TWW. I thought you might be interested in your SBC Reformed notoriety:

Dave Miller May 22, 2014 at 10:47 am

Adam, I disagree with Rick on a regular basis, and am often unhappy with his mode of presentation – no surprise to Rick, I’m sure.

But I share his concern.

If 10% of what I read about SGM and the formerly affiliated churches is true, I want absolutely nothing to do with that ministry. The culture of oppression against victims of abuse presented in the court filings is disgusting.

Of course, that is one side of the issue. Only one. And many of the folks who blast SGM have an axe to grind and are in no way unbiased. Links in this comment stream to Wartburg Watch are a case in point. Their accuracy is most definitely in question.

Just because I don’t like SGM much is not justification to believe every insinuation lobbed against them by the WW people.

So, I am deeply disturbed by what I have heard about SGM but I don’t know the details.

However, I can say this. I have heard enough that I don’t want an SBC entity to formally partner with them.

I don’t know exactly what is going on here. I’d like an answer to Rick’s question, which I think is fair.

Facts are our friends and I’d like the facts. I’ll go back to disagreeing with Rick on his next post – See more at: http://sbcvoices.com/one-simple-question/#sthash.VxekMq4g.dpuf”

Oh the agony poor “Pastor” Miller must be feeling. Just not long ago, SBVC were very pro Mahaney because they are pro Mohler in all things. But, not one word about the victims, of course, because “he does not want to know details”. Too negative, I suppose.

John Piper really needs to shut up and get off the stage. He’s no different than Pat Robertson. His day has passed its time he exit the stage. This guy is an attention whore. He needs to leave. If its God’s sovereignty to dismantle SGM then why does he fight it?

That CJ statement is bullcrap. Oh the irony…I can’t say anything but I need to say something. He could end all this RIGHT NOW, if he steps up acts like a man and takes responsibility. It’s foolish, it’s stupid to think he knows nothing. He ran Covenant Life Church in the same way Brigham Young ran Utah. You can’t do anything without his approval, blessing or concurrence. And that includes tying your shoe laces!

I think what we need to do as bloggers is step up the pressure and twist the pressure another notch. These men are wusses and have no authority at all. Let’s make them run and cry and hide behind their computer screens or churches. Here are some questions I have:

1.Where is Mark Dever in this mess? He’s the one who calls CJ a great friend. Hell maybe he can open up CHBC and let CJ flee there if he needs a place to hide. He’s already established precedent. Maybe Mark Dever can hold him and they can snuggle as CJ cries into his arms.
2.Where is Tim Challies. Oh Timmie…..you’re the guru on discernment…can’t you discern CJ? Hell Tullian can practice more discernment that you can. Why the silence? Will you’re statement on CJ Mahaney be plagiarized from another source?
3.Where is Al Mohler? He’s another attention whore who craves the headlines. I mean he’s always offering his opinion to the Washington Post; surely he has an opinion on this mess?
4.Where is D.A. Carson? Carson you’re full of crap and a disgrace to Trinity. Not only do you lack character but how can you teach and discipline students on plagiarism when you give Mark Driscoll a pass.
5.Where is Mark Driscoll in this mess? Heck he was the one who was “mentored” by CJ Mahaney. Given the fact that my dog has more education that CJ maybe this explains Driscoll’s plagiarism?

Here is a response from same blog by SBCPlodder, William Thornton:

William Thornton May 22, 2014 at 12:29 pm

I have found The blog articles at Wartburg Watch are well researched, factually based, and reliable. Their commenters are no more or less fact based than here. One might take issue with the keen and relentless focus of WW on CJM and SGM but their history is one of focus on clergy/church based child abuse and hyper-patriarchical and controlling church systems – See more at: http://sbcvoices.com/one-simple-question/#sthash.VxekMq4g.dpuf

Kudos to William Thornton.

mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

It’s entirely possible the rooms are heavily discounted as it’s June in Phoenix, not exactly a heavy travel time, and over a weekend. I suspect whatever portion of the convention center that has been rented may have been slightly discounted** –again, it’s really hot here in June and out-of-towners probably don’t want to be walking around.

I was in Phoenix for WesterCon in July of ’92. Dressed for hot weather so it wasn’t too bad, but what struck me was when I stepped out from the shade of a building into direct sun. I could literally feel the heat hit like a wall had slammed into me.

$100-150 a night for three-four nights is around the going price these days for a con hotel. Normal occupancy for that price is one to four, but there’s an old fannish trick to sublet the room into as many shares as possible to split the cost. Sometimes this gets ridiculous (as in “crash pads”), but this Gospelly event doesn’t sound like the type to have packed rooms or crash pads. Too respectable for that.

Nancy wrote:

I don’t know what catholics think about the celibacy requirement for catholic priests, but some protestants find that idea hard to deal with. That probably contributes to the idea that potential sexual deviancy might be more common in that population.

And a lot of Christians have REALLY dirty minds to begin with…

I concluded long ago that Christians(TM) are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else these days, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.

NJ wrote:

An Attorney; ever had haggis? How about chitlins?

YEP. And collards, kale, chicken livers and gizzards, calves liver, the worst of the wurst, and pate’ de fois gras. <—–

The gourmands of Chicago salute you.

And caviar which I think is the stupidest thing ever to put in one’s mouth. OH, and crawfish, squid, octopus, eel,

Now, you haven't tried everything until you've had geoduck. (Extra points if you know how to pronounce that word.)

squirrel, wild and farmed rabbit, squab, venison, bear. And most of those, I will never touch again.

Any ostrich steaks, alligator or rattlesnake?

Nancy,

Every time I've ever been to a Renaissance festival there has been a whole pig slow roasting on a spit, along with one already carved and being served up. Almost indulged myself, but had to save room for the steak and kidney pies.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Probably so. I hope you do not mind when I tell you stuff that is hard to say. I just do not see any way to cross chasms and heal wounds if we all continue to lie to each other, and about each other. First you got to thoroughly irrigate the wound (wash it out) and then it has a chance to heal itself, I am thinking.

Mahaney’s statement is understandable on one level, but not persuasive morally for the following reasons:

1. The abuse allegations and the disappointment with the handling by the church was known for years before there was any lawsuit. He could have spoken all along the way and did not.

2. The statement merely says he did not conspire and that the allegations against him are not true. He could have known and left it to others to handle. He would still be morally capable as the apostle of SGM and the leader of that ministry.

3. Again, it needs to be stressed that Mahaney personally discipled these pastors and taught them. What was he teaching? Wasn’t he overseeing them?

4. If he comes up with some scenario that vindicates him after all of these years, why in the world would he let these horrible events ( lawsuit et al) unfold without providing the simple explanation that would have answered so many questions for so many?

I have to say that his statement reads like a calculated and unpersuasive plea, but in the event he can describe some factual scenario that shows he was totally out of the loop for 22 years, it will not answer these equally important questions.

So he will not be shown to have been an active conspirator. But neither will he have distinguished himself as a leader of men or the Church.

@ Nancy:

I agree with what you explained here.

I think you, I, and An Attorney each read the statement slightly differently. Easy enough to clear up with further communication.

@ An Attorney:

@ Bridget:

“actually”

@ NJ:
Alligator for sure. Not bad fixed with some blackened oysters and shrimp in a white wine garlic butter sauce over whole grain rice. The alligator doesn’t taste so alligatory! The dish is modified Cajun recipe.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

I keep wondering … the money issue raises that possibility that there could be an issue of inurement – where a non-profit’s finances went to the inappropriate benefit of someone. Similar to the issue raised about *Real Marriage* and whether spending church funds to juice-promote a book to NYT Best Seller status is an inappropriate use of funds for a non-profit that was given tax-exempt status for working in the public interest.

Oh good luck on proving inurement. If the IRS can’t take down David Miscavige (the tiny tyrant of Scientology) based on all the evidence it has been given, it’s not going to go after the likes of the Pied Pipers leading the “young, restless and Reformed.”

I’m personally of the opinion that churches should be like other tax exempt organizations and make their tax returns public (Form 990).

  __

Cast into a  [Jezebel] bed with C.J. Mahaney, perhaps?

huh?

he repented not,
the  Neo-Cal ecclesiastical industrial complex repented not, as well?

Is the ‘spirit’ wherewith SGM is lightened, darkness?

…joy to the ‘void’ da Ceege shall take the ‘stand’?

hmmm…

Kind folks,  I know your works, and your great expended labor, and your tremendous patience, and how you cannot bear with them which are evil, and have, as Bereans , examined them which say they are Jesus’ pastors, and are not, and ‘hast’ found them liars…

Continue in well doing, all you who serve the Lord, you will reap …if you faint not.

“The Lord has risen!”

Blessings!

Sopy

—

Bridget wrote:

He still doesn’t appear to care about them.

Yes indeed, and I hope I didn’t give any other impression!

@ Deb:
When Layman stayed in Gaithersburg and after CLC separated from SGM, I thought that perhaps the scales from his eyes were falling.

I would have believed this had he not allowed all the fanfare surrounding his depature from the pastorate. He didn’t retire. The purpose, as I see it, wasn’t to celebrate his career. He didn’t leave office because he was “tired.” He left because he knew and Josh Harris knew what was coming. Once the news hit, as it did, that Layman knew, if he had been in office at CLC, it would have made things even worse for the church.

Josh Harris and the leaders of the church once again allowed the congregation to knowingly participate in a deception, as has happened at CLC on so many occasions it can’t be numbered. Business as usual. Nothing was said about the lawsuit. Layman was honored. He wasn’t leaving due to anything he did had done that harmed everyone.

If there had been some honesty, some transparency, it would have given me a sense of hope for Layman. As it stands, I think he probably agrees with Mahaney in principle, that he “never conspired to protect a child predator” and that he “looks forward to the day when he can speak freely…to respond publicly and address the accusations.”

I truly hope I’m wrong. I’d prefer to think he realizes CJ scr*wed people over and that he is one of them. But he’s Carolyn Mahaney’s brother and I’ve seen the way his wife totally fawned over her. So, unless there’s been some kind of huge, miraculous, divine intervention of some sort resulting in a discernible change of mind, I have to think he’s no different and still operating under the same spirit.

But I will join you in praying for him!

Sopwith wrote:

Continue in well doing, all you who serve the Lord, you will reap …if you faint not.

“The Lord has risen!”

Blessings!

Amen. And to you! 🙂

Anonymous wrote:

Mahaney’s statement is understandable on one level, but not persuasive morally for the following reasons:

1. The abuse allegations and the disappointment with the handling by the church was known for years before there was any lawsuit. He could have spoken all along the way and did not.

2. The statement merely says he did not conspire and that the allegations against him are not true. He could have known and left it to others to handle. He would still be morally capable as the apostle of SGM and the leader of that ministry.

3. Again, it needs to be stressed that Mahaney personally discipled these pastors and taught them. What was he teaching? Wasn’t he overseeing them?

4. If he comes up with some scenario that vindicates him after all of these years, why in the world would he let these horrible events ( lawsuit et al) unfold without providing the simple explanation that would have answered so many questions for so many?

I have to say that his statement reads like a calculated and unpersuasive plea, but in the event he can describe some factual scenario that shows he was totally out of the loop for 22 years, it will not answer these equally important questions.

So he will not be shown to have been an active conspirator. But neither will he have distinguished himself as a leader of men or the Church.

This is really good, I totally agree.

Also, what’s tragic to me is what he’s done to his family.

It appears there’s no truth in him. I honestly think he must be incapable of coming to it.

Perhaps to some this seems harsh and judgmental, I don’t know. But there’s no denying he ventured into dangerous territory, and has messed with God’s people. There are severe warnings in scripture concerning the people who do the kinds of things with God’s word and act in the ways he’s acted.

I can certainly sympathize, and I thank God for his grace in my life. But I also am aware of the higher authority of His Word, and there’s nothing my compassion can do to change the truth. I honestly believe that Mahaney is a man in serious trouble and that the Word of God condemns him.

The sad part to me is he’s taking those he’s gathered around him down with him. In my observation and experience, this is what people like this do. People who don’t/won’t/can’t repent take others down with them as they go.

What I read in Mahaney’s statement was a deviousness and a desire to take down Tullian Tchividjian by providing a statement that challenges the one he made in which he asserts Mahaney knew.

Why say something now? What else was it in response to if not to Tchividjian’s article that’s getting a lot of attention?

And more importantly, why didn’t Mahaney issue any kind of statement directly after the verdict and Morales was found guilty?

You’re right – he cannot escape the fact he was at the helm of Covenant Life Church, Captain of the Flagship who marketed himself to the world on the basis of his incredible “leadership.”

@ Bridget:

No one cares about the victims. Its distrubing and these men are morally and spiritually bankrupt. John Piper, Mark Dever, DA Carson and Tim Keller have said nothing about the victims. Why would any person who has been sexually exploited want to attend their church? Or any TGC church? They are spent and corrupt men. I can’t believe that this is how “faith” treats sexually abused and molested kids. If this is what “faith” is about then the sooner “Chirstianity” dies in the United States and disappears from the landscape…THE BETTER!!!

elastigirl wrote:

I think they just want one of these hats.

Nice! If they’d retire, I’d be willing to contribute to a pot to buy them each one. Heck, I’d make them originals with bells&whistles. I’d be fine if they wanted to parade up/down my street weekly in full regalia and trumpets, if they’d only quit their “jobs” and shut up.

I mean, everyone loves a pretty man who knows his place. And we all want pretty men to look their best.

CJ Mahaney Addresses Sovereign Grace Allegations for First Time; Refutes Civil Suit’s Claims

@ Patrice:

i’m quite sure they fancy themselves as being immortalized in the anals of religious history as heros of the faith, with their councils & all. a barrel of Constantine jrs. and Anathansius jrs.

   __

Donald Ducks: “Once Again Skipin’ Da Proverbial Pastoral Pavement, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

  “I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit…” – C.J Mahaney

(…hey pal, ya got da wrong dude!)

http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney

Has da Ceege presently announced  he would be taking a proverbial  ‘leave of sanity’ (1)?

http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney

-snicker-

hmmm…

(1) …an ‘extraordinarily satisfying reality’, no doubt, i.e. his proverbial …day job?

(grin)

hahahahahaha

Sopy
__
Comic relief: “Donald Ducks?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VttqPrpU8w

;~)

—

Deb wrote:

@ Sara:

Just made the correction to the name of the news source. Sorry about the confusion.

Oh goodness, it’s no big thing!!! It actually makes more sense to me knowing that the article was in a UK rag — can you imagine something that bold about TGC in Christianity Today?!? I mean, maybe it’s been done but I sure don’t recall.

Anonymous wrote:

So he will not be shown to have been an active conspirator. But neither will he have distinguished himself as a leader of men or the Church.

Nailed it.

I find it interesting that Tullian speaks well of several individuals associated with TGC in his Mefferd interview, but speaks critically about "the powers that be." Is he referring to the council? I am really curious to know more how exactly TGC operates. I get a sense that it is very hierarchical in and of itself.

elastigirl wrote:

i’m quite sure they fancy themselves as being immortalized in the anals of religious history as heros of the faith, with their councils & all. a barrel of Constantine jrs. and Anathansius jrs.

Oh yeah, and they are making sure of it with their multi-million-dollar stained-glass windows project, unaware that it is an ode to their small-minded pomposity and reaallly bad taste. lol

At least those hats carried a sense of humor.

Paula…a question for you (and for anyone else to entertain)…do you think that the issues at CLC were a direct result of their reformed theology? As I’ve seen the continuing defense of him, I wonder how much of it is because people are saying “who isn’t a sinner…everyone does something bad, so who are you to judge CJ? You probably looked lustfully at a woman today, so you’re no judge…” (basically sin leveling). I wonder if his view of total depravity was that everyone did something bad, so no one can complain about anything, therefore why should we inform the police?

acg116 wrote:

As I’ve seen the continuing defense of him, I wonder how much of it is because people are saying “who isn’t a sinner…everyone does something bad, so who are you to judge CJ? You probably looked lustfully at a woman today, so you’re no judge…” (basically sin leveling). I wonder if his view of total depravity was that everyone did something bad, so no one can complain about anything, therefore why should we inform the police?

Exactly! Isn’t it odd how this doctrine of depravity negates depravity altogether? One reason I left Calvinism (particularly as articulated by its “New” proponents) was not because I believed people were “essentially good” but because I realized, ironically, sin could not exist within such a system. All actions and thoughts are essentially one and the same. One cannot blame Mahaney; he is merely playing his role as “part or particle of God.”

Recently, I was in a business relationship with a real whacko and while trying to figure her out, I came across an article(s) on characteristics of controlling people and abusers. One is that they "control information". Example: I gave notice to this lady that my daughter will no longer be studying with her. She then emails another teacher that my daughter studies with to let her know. Never mind the fact that she has never met or spoken with my daughter's other teacher, they live an hour apart, and teach different things! I am on excellent terms with the other teacher and have been for years, so she just forwarded me the email. But the controlling, abusive teacher could not let me go on my terms. She had to control the information. I think CJ is showing us a glimpse of himself…a controller and an abuser. He had to control the info, not Tullian. For the fun of it, I'm going to post some of the other characteristics of controllers and abusers: Will not be doubted, criticized or questioned, aggressive toward critics, demand you behave as they want you to, information from outside sources is criticized and discounted, favor individuals who are loyal, try to destroy your reputation, uses weird and warped logic, deny that certain things were ever said, never accepts blame, manipulates people to become dependent on him, is secretive and self righteous, his word is law, engages in power plays. Any of that familiar?

@ Paula:

Sensible wrote:

All actions and thoughts are essentially one and the same. One cannot blame Mahaney; he is merely playing his role as “part or particle of God.”

For that matter, one can neither access nor articulate truth within Mahaney’s theological framework. TGC prides itself on adhering to doctrinal absolutes, yet how can one defend these if one is perennially unsure of the “inclinations” of one’s heart and faculties? Note how TGC selectively applies this mindset in the case of #IStandWithSGMSurvivors…consistently questioning the motives of the advocates and messengers (but never those of the coalition members themselves).

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/8/protestant_church_faces_new_sex_abuse. Features Boz and GRACE. I was able to listen to part of this today and think it was really good. I’m excited that it is reaching a far different audience. We need exposure. I’m thinking of emailing Anderson Cooper, Dr. Drew, etc…and Muff, love your posts, as well! No calling to be a celebate catholic priest in your future, huh?

Eagle wrote:

Agreed!!! What would a theology blog be without HUG? Can you imagine the void? I love reading his commentary and jokes. Sometimes I laugh out loud so hard. We love you HUG!!!! 🙂

Many years ago, I knew a horndog who actually DID complain like that.

NJ wrote:

does anyone here know how SGM ever dealt with situations of domestic violence?

Someone may have already answered this, but I got lost in all the comments, so here’s a reply.

In situations of domestic abuse, there were several women whose stories were related on the now-defunct SGMRefuge website, and on SGMSurvivors.com. They were told to go back to abusive husbands, or that they were not allowed to leave abusive husbands. Check out the ‘stories’ portion of sgmsurvivors for more details.

@ Taylor Joy Young:
So Cj is praying for justice?… Wow! He might actually get it. Wouldn’t want to be him when it comes. Let’s see… blackmail, authoritarianism, criminal cover-ups, empire building at the expense of abused children via shepherding the congregation so every action needed approval by the leadership including pressing charges, and forced marriages (well, forced-to-stay-in marriages). Yes, may justice come to the victims of some grandiose-acting leaders who no more spoke for God than the caterpillar in my garden. What did God say about false prophets again? Yikes!

Did you see at SGM Survivors the other day…someone posted about all the people who committed suicide because they we’re advised not to seek mental health treatment. And how CLC Pastors became an accessory to it?

  __

“UN- Assimilation?”

hmmm…

TGC: “Tullian , You are not one of us…”
“You are not one of us…”
“You are not one of us…”
“You are not one of us…”
“You are not one of Ussssssssss…”

Un, un, un, un…

-snicker-

You have been Un-Assimilatied,  good for you, Tullian!

TGC plus C.J. Mahaney equals everything?

(grin)

hahahahahahaha

*

Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

(bump)

Krash!

For what is a man advantaged, if he should gain the whole TGC religious world, and lose his soul?

(sadface)

Sopy

—

May wrote:

His praise of C.J. is sickening.

This adulation of CJ is perplexing. This current rallying around him at all costs by his buddies is perplexing. There does seem to be something going on that the rest of the world does not know about-yet.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Paula wrote:
Personally, no one should listen to anything Mahaney has to say unless he FIRST removes himself from the position of being a “pastor.”
Mahaney missed a great opportunity. Even if he were completely guilty, if he had stepped down at the beginning, and behaved the way we expect a “pastor” to, he would have much more credibility. Furthermore, he could have responded to the Morales trial by saying something like, “This is heart wrenching, and happened on my watch. As the leader, I am ultimately responsible, and I will be reaching out to the victims and assisting the justice department in their investigations.”
Instead he has displayed actions that accurately reflect sociopathy. Now, even if he is completely innocent, he will always be under a black cloud because he didn’t care about the victims.

Agree. As it stands, even his exit form TGC coalition was nothing to do with the sex abuse scandal – it was mysterious ‘long-standing reason’s (can’t remember the exact mealy-mouthed phrase) that just happened to coincide with the stuff hitting the fan, oh, and as pure coincidence Josh Harris resigned the EXACT same day, but it was pure coincidence, you understand.

Do these guys – C.J., TGC, think we’re a bunch of imbeciles? I mean, exactly how low a view do they hold of the general public, that they expect us to believe and swallow this stuff??

E.G. wrote:

Robin wrote:

Dr. Fundystan,
I finished Prodigal God two days ago so I was SHOCKED when I read what Tim Keller had to say about all of this. It is quite confusing.

Try reading his and his wife’s marriage book where he attempts to walk a tightrope appearing complementarian for his TGC buddies while obviously not really believing a word of it. It’s extremely odd.

Tim’s got one of the most secular cities in the world to appease, he won’t upset that apple cart.

Nickname:

“In situations of domestic abuse, there were several women whose stories were related on the now-defunct SGMRefuge website, and on SGMSurvivors.com. They were told to go back to abusive husbands, or that they were not allowed to leave abusive husbands. Check out the ‘stories’ portion of sgmsurvivors for more details.”

Thankyou for this. I’ll check that out. I wish we could forcibly sit all the SGM pastors down in one room and turn Jeff Crippen loose on them. Sounds like wives in those churches were required to endure far more than just being “smacked around for a night”. When I also think about how SGM was basically quiverfull and pushed homeschooling or church school, there were greater-than-average numbers of children at risk in such situations, along with their mothers who were supposed to just be homemakers with no financial independence.

Nancy wrote:

This adulation of CJ is perplexing.

It’s more than perplexing. There isn’t a person alive or dead that I would describe in such glowing terms. I’m not even sure i would talk about Jesus that way. It is so fake and so over the top, I wonder how he can expect anyone to take him seriously. Some of us actually, you know, went to college and studied rhetoric, my friend…

In other news, I discovered this morning that due to lax grocery requirements specification on my part, we have run out of Café Direct rich roast coffee.

Talk about dunging one’s own grave.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh !

acg116 wrote:

Nick, that last sentence is telling. They’ve sacrificed common sense and human decency (let alone sacrificial, Christian love) at the altar of doctrine.

As the French Revolution is long out of living memory, ask some survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields just how much can — and did — get sacrificed at the altar of Doctrine/Ideology.

May wrote:

Paula, I watched the first minute or so of that video of Mark Dever speaking at Louisville SGM. His praise of C.J. is sickening. It seems he has wholly absorbed the SGM tradition of eulogising CJ.

Five words: COMRADE DEAR LEADER. NORTH KOREA.

So all three ‘Christian leaders’ at this wedding were ‘bragging’ about C.G. and his integrity! A

HUMBLY, of course.

Transcript of another excerpt of the Fighting for the Faith interview:

Christopher Rosebrough: ‘You are the guy who publically challenged TGC about how they dealt with the SGM sex scandal.’

Tullian: ‘Yeah, the so-called Anti-nomian is the only one who actually laid down the law!!’

Christopher: ‘My concern is the way this debate has played out, people haven’t actually taken the time to make sure they properly understand a person’s position…’

Tullian: ‘It’s snarky, insensitive and hurtful…if Jesus really had a concern about something I was saying, how would he approach me with something like that?…[notes that the ‘Failure is not a virtue’ argument on TGC was misunderstanding him].
[He continues:] ‘Try to be civil, be kind. What happened to love, joy, peace, kindness, faithfulness, and self-control? What happened to gentleness? Is there not a way to voice criticism without…giving someone the benefit of the doubt because Jesus gave you the benefit of the doubt?
[He continues]: ‘How un-sanctified these guys sound – they sound angry, ticked-off, sarcastic…the whole tone of the conversation betrays what they’re trying to push, which is a more serious call to a devout and holy life!’

I do agree with Carl Trueman, though, when he says this:

“One of the big problems with Big Calvinism has been the prevalence of club house rules as the means of operating within the upper echelons. A movement built on big personalities, a consortium of different ‘brands,’ along with their concomitant and often conflicting egos, and held together by the power of the carrot and stick of the promise of big platforms and the threat of total oblivion, was always going to be inherently unstable. Self-policing was at a premium, with criticism only allowed from those standing within the tent and aiming outwards, so to speak. That was shame because the problems of personalities, branding, ego and worse were never really addressed by the tent dwellers.”
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/05/another-try.php

May wrote:

Tullian comments: ‘What’s so ironic to me is that those who are pushing the hardest for the pursuit of holiness and practice of godliness and all of our action in sanctification are the quickest to mis-characterise, misrepresent, and slander. They are proud, they are arrogant, they come across angry and self-righteous.

These are not the only or the first to go down that path and end up with the very sins he accuses them of. This is what that particular path leads to.

@ acg116:

Its a good thing they are not running a nation-state. Otherwise we would see a sequal to the Cambodian Killing fields. All led by John Piper’s tweets! Sovereing Grace’s conferences. And updates by THE Gospel Coalition.

although getting away from this exclusive club may be the best thing Tullian has ever done.

Oh definitely. The fact that they blindsided Tullian as they did shows just what they are capable of. I wonder if they really think CJ and protecting him is worth it.

Eagle wrote:

Great minds think alike

Alternatively, …

Humour is one thing, and I am all in favour of it, but I do wish you would stop writing such silly comments, imo it undoes a lot of the hard work put into the articles written here about serious matters evangelicals need to stop hiding from.

“I wonder where he thinks the buck stops?”

With God, of course, just like he expressed in his prayer. He prays for God to bring justice. Mahaney is an empty shell just waiting for God to do His work. Mahaney does not appear to be a new creature in Christ who has been changed by the law of the Spirit of life; one who would desire to bring justice, peace, and hope to the brokenhearted.

He appears to be trusting in horses and chariots and not in God’s promises to those who have faith in Jesus and who walk in His ways. Maybe Mahaney believes grace is for other people. Or maybe be believes there is grace for him but he doesn’t like the idea of consequences? In which case, how much does he believe in grace? How much does he really trust God with his future — even if that future might be nothing like Mahaney wanted, desired, or expected?

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

And like the NSDAP did with Eugenics and Master Race Theory, the Khmer Rouge took Purity of Ideology for The Perfect Utopian State as far as they could and ACTED on it to the bitter end. Secure in their True Belief that THEY and THEY ALONE were Ideologically Pure enough to Take Back Cambodia and fulfill the predestined Inevitable Dialectic of History leading to the Utter Perfection of True Communism.

(I understand at the time that Vietnam invaded Democratic Kampuchea(TM), the Khmer Rouge liquidation orders had become to exterminate ALL Cambodians who were not Khmer Rouge Party Members BEFORE the takeover. All others’ Ideology was Impure and their heart motivations Suspect. All this sound familiar?)

Bridget wrote:

“I wonder where he thinks the buck stops?”

With God, of course, just like he expressed in his prayer. He prays for God to bring justice. Mahaney is an empty shell just waiting for God to do His work. Mahaney does not appear to be a new creature in Christ who has been changed by the law of the Spirit of life; one who would desire to bring justice, peace, and hope to the brokenhearted.

He appears to be trusting in horses and chariots and not in God’s promises to those who have faith in Jesus and who walk in His ways. Maybe Mahaney believes grace is for other people. Or maybe be believes there is grace for him but he doesn’t like the idea of consequences? In which case, how much does he believe in grace? How much does he really trust God with his future — even if that future might be nothing like Mahaney wanted, desired, or expected?

at least you can still buy some killer gospel centered wooden signs from Carolyn…

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

All this sound familiar?)

You betcha.

And in the midst of these recent shocking revelations confirming that heinous sexual crimes were committed against innocent children in the care of a reformed denomination that is feted by Mohler, Dever, Grudem et al, and that those same crimes were hushed up by the church leaders, allowing a depraved perpetrator to continue abusing children for many more years…amidst all of this, what are the bloggers getting all uptight and angry about?

A fellow brother who is ACCUSED of veering away from ‘correct doctrine’. (ed. at request of commenter)

Nancy wrote:

This adulation of CJ is perplexing. This current rallying around him at all costs by his buddies is perplexing. There does seem to be something going on that the rest of the world does not know about-yet.

That’s one of the reasons why I’m going to protest his appearance here in Phoenix next month. The attitude is such that C.J.’s fan club can’t look beyond it and see the devastation behind him. If I wake up one person, I will have succeeded in my goal.

Leila wrote:

I wonder, now that Grant Layman testified that he knew about the abuse and didn’t report it, if that testimony will lend weight to the “conspiracy to cover up” theory.

*sigh* I wish I could say it would have impact, but since appeals are based on the prior record and no new evidence is supposed to be introduced, it’s not going to change anything. 🙁

May wrote:

A fellow brother who veered away from the correct doctrine.

That would be the “correct” doctrine (the quotes are important!).

I don’t want to make more of this point than is warranted, but amid all the new-calvinist talk of correct doctrine it is easy to forget that much distinctively new-calvinist doctrine is itself highly questionable. It’s true that they generally assert the Nicene Creed and similar, but they didn’t write it and don’t own it.

Nancy wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
All this sound familiar?)
You betcha.

What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?

You tell me. Each other?

Chris Calloway wrote:

May wrote:
Christopher: ‘My concern is the way this debate has played out, people haven’t actually taken the time to make sure they properly understand a person’s position…’
Pot meet kettle.
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/05/where-the-sanctification-contr.php
It is Tullian who is not engaging the positions and the concerns of the other side of the conversation. “Yeah, whatever” is not a good answer.
Also (and I AM NOT defending TGC on the SGM scandal), Tullian doesn’t have any “inside” knowledge of the crimes at SGM (and admits this) so why is he being sought as a source for commentary and, more importantly, if he was SO scandalized by the TGC non-response, how come he stuck with TGC for so long?

I agree. I don’t think either side has taken the time to properly engage and understand where the other is coming from. Both sides are misrepresenting the other.

To a certain extent, Tullian is reacting in anger and hurt. Still, I happen to agree with his assessments of SGM and TGC. He stuck with TGC because, I believe he said on his last blog entry there, he was unaware of the extent to which his theology was offending some of the ‘right-ons’ as they never confronted him personally. Totally immature behaviour.

May wrote:

This is not some storm in a teacup. This theological disagreement seems pretty big.

There was a time, when I was in my 20s, where I read hardcore theology AVIDLY. I’ve mentioned before that I read Calvin’s Institutes as “light reading” during law school. (In retrospect, I should have done Harlequin Romances, like my classmates.)

I stopped reading theology after I came to the conclusion that it was a lot of a word I can’t use here. People arguing over arcane readings of Greek, over parsing John Calvin’s Institutes (in Latin or French, take your pick), over Luther’s writings, over whatever theological great of their religious tradition who had been set up as The Authority, etc. etc. And then there was the cutting off of people who didn’t perfectly agree down the line, which I’m seeing again with TGC giving the left foot of fellowship to Tullian T…and which has resulted in hundreds of religious divisions even among evangelical Protestants.

Among the Calvinists, I find that the divisions are over ideas that Joe and Jane Average Pew Sitter can barely conceptualize. I have the intellectual tools and a fairly decent background to understand these things, but it gives me a headache. And I’ll give you a couple of reasons why.

* It’s not “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified” (1 Cor. 2:2). Others will differ with me, but I think all this theologizing gets away from the heart of the Gospel (and not whatever the heck the Gospel Coalition thinks is the Gospel).

* I am an imperfect human being and I absolutely know that I cannot hold even from moment to moment the absolute, unheretical, whole truth about God in my fallible gray matter. I have to trust that God is going to understand that I don’t understand very well at all.

I could go on with reasons, but they’d get more and more snarky, so I will spare you.

My point is that I think all this dividing and unpersoning is a real distraction from the core of Christianity. As Jesus said to the disciples when they asked him to chastise a guy who was performing healings in Jesus’ name: “Do not stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you” (Luke 9:50).

But don’t listen to me, I’m your closet heretick.

Chris Calloway wrote:

It is Tullian who is not engaging the positions and the concerns of the other side of the conversation. “Yeah, whatever” is not a good answer.

These people have been “engaging” on these issues repeatedly over the last few years. I would suppose that neither side is really cognizant of how much their differences have slipped by the general public. There is a thing going on now which some people call the “new grace reformation” but which its proponents call the “grace reformation” because they deny that it is new. There are books for and against (one of which I have been reading) and there are blogs and sermons and churches etc. None of them seem to be baptist or methodist so I was not aware of it until the past few weeks, but it is out there and apparently thriving enough to stir up opposition. Under “hyper-grace” (another word used in connection with this) there would not be any way to set up an authoritarian legalistic system. A system of some sort, I suppose, but not like the calvinista system and not based on the same ideas. It is an interesting controversy, but at the same time I think that it is important, whether interesting or not.

I think that Tullian seems to have the personality more often seen in evangelists than in theologians, and I think he was bush whacked and is defensive. But he was setting up his own site and his own conferences and writing his own stuff for some time now. And he is far from along in his thinking. I plan to read a lot more on this issue ASAP.

Muff Potter wrote:

there are many* out here who don’t see it that way and opt for a more pragmatic and responsible approach rather than a black-and-white absolute proscription.

Thanks for stating this so clearly, MP.

Nancy wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Like Stalinists and Trotskyites.
Like Leninists and Maoists.
Which is TRUE Communism?
Absolutely. And like particular baptists and general baptists. For that matter like eastern NC barbecue and western NC barbecue!!!!

Don’t forget Memphis, Texas, and Kansas City BBQ. Almost as many BBQ styles as Protestant theologies and the debates are as intense- although the BBQ debates are much tastier!

Tullian Tchividjian has spoken out again:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-calls-gospel-coalitions-claims-attributed-to-tim-keller-d-a-carson-about-his-exit-a-flat-out-lie-120272/

Tullian Tchividjian says D. A. Carson and Tim Keller’s claims about how his departure from The Gospel Coalition transpired are misleading and a “flat-out lie.”

May wrote:

amidst all of this, what are the bloggers getting all uptight and angry about?

A fellow brother who is ACCUSED of veering away from ‘correct doctrine’.

@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

It’s the elevation of soulless eggheadery over real, live, hurting people, period.

@ JeffT:

Heretic. 🙂

Even bringing up those … other places … in the same breath as “Carolina BBQ” calls for a burning at the stake. A meaty, smoky, porky stake, granted, but nonetheless … the supremacy of the Carolina style must never be questioned.

Leila wrote:

but since I live just 15 minutes away from the courthouse, I may try to attend and take good notes.

That would be awesome – and I have to say, you live in an absolutely gorgeous part of the country. My grandparents have a farm out in Anne Arundel.

Great quotes from the CP article:

“Why doesn’t someone just come and out say ‘I didn’t abuse children but to the degree that it happened under my watch I’m sick to my stomach and I will apologize and I will do everything and anything I can do to cooperate with the investigation and serve the victims and their families.’ Period. Signed, C. J. Mahaney,” Tchividjian said.

“Say that, it still seems like ‘I didn’t do anything.’ I’m just like ‘Oh my gosh man.’ If I was the head of an organization where this kind of behavior had been taking place for years, even though if I didn’t actually perform this kind of behavior, even if I didn’t even know about the behavior, the only thing I would say is ‘I’m sick. I’m sorry. I will do whatever I need to do to help the victims and their families,'” Tchividjian added. “… If The Gospel Coalition would have said that, instead of Don Carson and Kevin DeYoung and Just Taylor, basically writing in the middle of the trial, a defense of C. J. That’s a major blemish.”

May wrote:

And in the midst of these recent shocking revelations confirming that heinous sexual crimes were committed against innocent children in the care of a reformed denomination that is feted by Mohler, Dever, Grudem et al, and that those same crimes were hushed up by the church leaders, allowing a depraved perpetrator to continue abusing children for many more years…amidst all of this, what are the bloggers getting all uptight and angry about?
A fellow brother who is ACCUSED of veering away from ‘correct doctrine’. (ed. at request of commenter)
Give me strength.

Well, yes. And the more cynical among us believe this is an intentional smoke screen.

@ Muff Potter:

Sometimes mother pigs kill and eat their own young.

@ Nick Bulbeck: Many of them claim that the Nicene Creed supports ESS, though… so even though they cite it, they do not believe what it actually says.

Doubt they’d be down with the Athanasian Creed at all.

numo wrote:

Many of them claim that the Nicene Creed supports ESS, though…

WT$??? (ed.)

numo wrote:

Doubt they’d be down with the Athanasian Creed at all.

I can’t say I entirely blame them. The Athanasian Creed has only ever once been printed out in full, whereupon it underwent gravitational collapse and became a black hole.

@ Nick Bulbeck: lolz!

numo wrote:

@ Nick Bulbeck: lolz!

In the interests of defeating plagiarism, I should have cited the originator of that one: the late, great Douglas Adams.

mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

Tullian Tchividjian has spoken out again:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-calls-gospel-coalitions-claims-attributed-to-tim-keller-d-a-carson-about-his-exit-a-flat-out-lie-120272/
Tullian Tchividjian says D. A. Carson and Tim Keller’s claims about how his departure from The Gospel Coalition transpired are misleading and a “flat-out lie.”

Everyone should read this article! Go Tullian!!!

Rafiki wrote:

Chris Calloway wrote:
over his incomplete gospel.
Uh, “incomplete” according to whom, exactly?

This covers it pretty well: http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/05/where-the-sanctification-contr.php

Shame that TT won’t confront gracious and substantive critique, but instead resorts to vague claims about “some guys out there somewhere” who are legalists. His “response” to Jen Wilkins’ piece is a perfect example of a non-response response.

Just read one of Tullian’s post over at Liberate. It IS a breath of fresh air. For a start, he talked about ‘Christ-centred’ rather than ‘gospel-centred’. When was the last time you even heard a New Calvinist leader utter the name of Christ, let along talk about being Christ-centred?

Also, this quote sums up a lot of what is wrong with the New Calvinist lot: “I’m realizing that the sin I need removed daily is precisely my narcissistic understanding of spiritual progress. I think too much about how I’m doing, if I’m growing, whether I’m doing it right or not. I spend too much time pondering my failure, brooding over my spiritual successes, and wondering why, when it’s all said and done, I don’t seem to be getting that much better. In short, I spend way too much time thinking about me and what I need to do and far too little time thinking about Jesus and what he’s already done.”

How refreshing to get away from all the sin-focus, which can be, as T.T. articulates here, a mere form of self-focus.

Nick said:

Mirele said: I stopped reading theology after I came to the conclusion that it was a lot of a word I can’t use here.
I have long referred to theology as theologianology. I see we’re of the same mind.

Theology is not truly the study of God. I have long said that theology is more the study of human thinking about God as expressed in their writings (and more recently lectures, if taped). So it is a form of psychology and sociology of those who seem to have time to ponder the nature of God and the relationship of humans to God. And so, most of the time spent by people called theologians is spent reading a parsing other theologians. That generally takes small errors and makes them into huge mistakes, and results in the fatal error: Focusing on the tiniest nit and ignoring the tornado while complaining that the other guy is focusing on the rivulet and ignoring the tsunami.

@ Chris Calloway:

OK, perhaps I overstated it – but from these guys I hear so much more about the GOSPEL, or as Dee and Deb would have it, GOSPEL trademarked, than I do about Christ. Seriously, when was the last time you heard the term ‘Christ-centred’ rather than ‘Gospel-centred’?

@ Deb:

Here is the most important part of today’s Christian Post article involving Tullian Tchividjian and The Gospel Coalition (in my estimation).  I have put in bold the most important statements for emphasis. 

Tchividjian, senior pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida, told The Christian Post on Thursday that the statement published by founders Keller and Carson on The Gospel Coalition’s website wrongly characterized a meeting in Florida between him and TGC Executive Director Ben Peays.

“I told Ben Peays this last night. I called him and I told him, ‘That statement’s misleading and you know it,’” said Tchividjian, “… The way the statement read, it was as if he came down to Fort Lauderdale to talk with me on behalf of the coalition regarding the theological issue that they were having with me. That is categorically false.”

Tchividjian explained that Peays flew down to Florida as a consultant for the pastor’s new ministry, Liberate, which also picked up the bill for his flight. He added that he (Tullian) initiated a conversation about moving his blog content off the coalition’s website and that “it was never ever insinuated that that’s what The Gospel Coalition wanted.”

“To cover themselves so they would not look like bullies, they took a trip that Ben took two months ago, turned that trip and made it look like The Gospel Coalition sent him down to cover these concerns — and that’s just a flat-out lie. That’s a lie,” said Tchividjian. “It just calls into question their integrity. Why would they spin it that way? Why did they say it that way?”

Dee and I would LOVE to get our hands on a copy of that invoice showing that Tullian's ministry Liberate paid for Ben Peays' flight to Florida.   We will be happy to publish it on our blog, along with an explanation of what REALLY happened.

@ Deb:

Agree that that is the stunning of claims by Tullian. Wonder if TGC will respond? It certainly throws a lot more mud their direction. Wonder if they’re worried that some of it will start to stick?

@ An Attorney:

The beauty of living in Scotland is that ye dinnae hae’ ‘ae filter yer water.

Rafiki,

Thank you.

Nancy,

In theory they would be willing to do “jail time for Jesus”, although I suspect that if the civil magistrate’s push came to shove about things like reporting requirements, they’d cave in order to stay out of the slammer. Short of that, I’m sure they’d at least imply they were being persecuted by a hostile culture for standing up for biblical truth, as they see it. One thing that ticks me off about stuff like this is the ammunition this provides for certain groups out there that have been calling for the revocation of churches’ tax exemptions. I know there are good arguments for why churches should never have become 501c3 organizations, but if that were suddenly repealed a lot of churches would suddenly be in a bad way, if not go bust altogether.

Just read TT’s interview. Things are sure heating up, and the TGC has some ‘splainin’ to do.

An Attorney wrote:

Theology is not truly the study of God. I have long said that theology is more the study of human thinking about God as expressed in their writings (and more recently lectures, if taped). So it is a form of psychology and sociology of those who seem to have time to ponder the nature of God and the relationship of humans to God. And so, most of the time spent by people called theologians is spent reading a parsing other theologians. That generally takes small errors and makes them into huge mistakes, and results in the fatal error: Focusing on the tiniest nit and ignoring the tornado while complaining that the other guy is focusing on the rivulet and ignoring the tsunami.

OH YEAH. You get it!

Chris Calloway wrote:

Nancy wrote:

As evidenced by the cited article and links and the comment by Chris. That was a two handed game of the writer who misunderstands, deliberately I think, and Chris who blames that on TT for not explaining himself adequately.

Nancy — Rick Phillips does not say he doesn’t understand Tullian. He is saying that he DOES understand Tullian and that he disagrees with him. And he explains where, how, and why. It is TULLIAN who seeks refuge under the “you don’t understand me” shelter. Mark Jones, Mike Kruger and others have exhaustively cited Tullian’s own words and teachings and have demonstrated, if not error, points of concern that Tullian just blows off (“Yeah, whatever”)seemingly as a man who cannot be corrected. (Next he’ll do a remake of Steven Furtick’s glorious and thrilling “Hey Haters” video.) In sum — you’ve got it exactly backward.

And yet, as others have pointed out, keller can be a theistic evolutionist without much of a problem, notwithstanding the fact that mohler and crew say that position undermines the authority if scripture and the gospel. There’s a massive double standard at play here….

Acg116 wrote:

And yet, as others have pointed out, keller can be a theistic evolutionist without much of a problem, notwithstanding the fact that mohler and crew say that position undermines the authority if scripture and the gospel. There’s a massive double standard at play here….

Agreed. Completely. Emphatically. That is only one of the problems with Keller (from the mouth of a PCA guy).

Chris Calloway wrote:

Agreed. Completely. Emphatically. That is only one of the problems with Keller (from the mouth of a PCA guy).

Interesting wording.

Please keep my dear friend Gina in your prayers. She is most likely going Home in the next couple of weeks. I’m not going to pretend to understand all of her problems but she is extremely sick and living in excruciating pain. I love my friend and I don’t want her to suffer but I’m also not ready to say goodbye yet. We were both hoping she’d be here long enough to see pictures and video from the wedding in three weeks. I don’t even know what to say. I guess this is just a very bittersweet time, filled with joy for the upcoming events but also sorrow.

Marie2 wrote:

but I have yet to hear someone speak up and defend them for the fact that they truly do help the poor and needy.

Wow, Has anyone seen the latest from Boz T???

http://boz.religionnews.com/2014/05/23/searching-jesus-todays-church/

Searching for Jesus in today’s Church…

Do you see?
Do you see?
All the people sinking down?
Don’t you care?
Don’t you care?
Are you gonna let them drown?
How can you be so numb?!
Not to care if they come
You close your eyes,
And pretend the job is done
– Keith Green
This past week I found myself grieving. I learned that a former volunteer of a large church was convicted of sexually victimizing three boys under his supervision.

dee wrote:

Secondly, I do not believe that this is “just” over doctrine. The SGM matter is in play as well.

I agree. If it were only about doctrine they would not be playing games with the doctrine issue. There would be no need to muddy the waters with misunderstanding/misrepresentation. They could just handle the issues in a straightforward manner. The doctrine thing, while real, is brought out at this exact time as a smoke screen and a diversion tactic.

Chris Calloway wrote:

Acg116 wrote:

And yet, as others have pointed out, keller can be a theistic evolutionist without much of a problem, notwithstanding the fact that mohler and crew say that position undermines the authority if scripture and the gospel. There’s a massive double standard at play here….

Agreed. Completely. Emphatically. That is only one of the problems with Keller (from the mouth of a PCA guy).

Fellow pca member, and the goal of the following is not to get into a theological debate (full disclosure, I’m not a young earth creationist). I’m noticing one thing about the coalition….from what I’ve personally witnessed from the pulpit, and from what I’ve seen from the other redeemer pastors is different than on many points than say, deyoung or platt. I’ll go out on a limb and say if keller didn’t have a church with intellectual New Yorkers (whatever that means), some of those coalition guys wouldn’t put up with it. Similarly, if tim got up and have a john piper message consistently, he’d be preaching to about 50% less people. The whole dynamic is confusing to me.

Acg116 wrote:

The whole dynamic is confusing to me.

Me, too.

@ Deb:

You’re right that this is crucial. Someone is lying. It is sad of course, when pastors lie, but it is useful when a premeditated, important, lie is caught because it reveals so much. Whether or not the TGC visit to Pastor T. in Florida was for talking about his theology is important, and, most importantly, outsiders can, with a little extra evidence, determine who is lying and who is telling the truth. Do please get and post that evidence, and, of course, offer the other side a chance to reply and report back that you made the offer and if it was rejected or ignored.

Nancy wrote:

I have not thoroughly researched the issues and the arguments, so I don’t know what I think of all of it. I know almost nothing about TT at this point.

With respect, this is a problem. I don’t get how you are able to make your arguments if this the case. If you “know almost nothing about TT” how can you claim that Phillips doesn’t know what TT is teaching when you admit you don’t know his teaching yourself? How do you KNOW Phillips is wrong (a “disingenuous” “phony” even!) when you haven’t researched? How is what TT says “obvious” when you are not familiar with the particulars of the discussion?

That aside — look at what Phillips says about Tullian’s poor exegesis of 1 John 5:2-3. Are you really saying that Phillips is misrepresenting Tullian’s interpretation? You can’t. You may not like that Phillips publicly corrects him, but isn’t it possible that Phillips is right and Tullian’s is intransigent?

@ Chris Calloway:

Nice try. Bad reasoning. You can always try again.

Chris Calloway wrote:

May wrote:
Chris, the problem here is not with the Gospel itself, obviously. It is with the particular interpretation of the ‘Gospel’ promulgated by these guys where many secondary issues, i.e. complementarianism (plus many more) have been made ‘Gospel’ issues, that is if you deny them you’re really denying the Gospel and probably aren’t a Christian at all. Then there’s the avalanche of merchandising: books, tours etc etc giving ‘Gospel’ views on everything from marriage to money… where, again, it is a very particular interpretation of the Gospel that is put forward & its meaning for various parts of life explained. Many people here, me included, see what is preached as Christ + something (here a very precise Calvinist theology) & that’s why some are using that term(actually the annexation of that term to a certain small proportion of orthodox belief) here in a way you aren’t recognising. It has become like a cheesy catchphrase they use that doesn’t just mean Jesus, but their tight system that makes very many non-essentials central.

@ Chris Calloway:
OK, perhaps I overstated it – but from these guys I hear so much more about the GOSPEL, or as Dee and Deb would have it, GOSPEL trademarked, than I do about Christ. Seriously, when was the last time you heard the term ‘Christ-centred’ rather than ‘Gospel-centred’?

I don’t understand why you object to the word “Gospel” when it is the Good News about Jesus…but let’s play anyway. TGC has this project…http://legacy.thegospelcoalition.org/preaching-christ…for instance. And everyone associated with TGC or the “New Calvinists” with whom I am familiar consistently preaches Christ from their pulpits and in their other platforms. Have you ever listened to Kevin DeYoung or Rick Phillips preach? I’m guessing not, otherwise you couldn’t credibly make your claim, even as a bit of hyperbole.

That first paragraph under ‘May said’ is actually me…

@ Beakerj:

What you said and how you said it is good. But you are wasting your time with this fellow. I stated something and then came back and explained it in detail and still he comes back with “but wait–but you said” while ignoring what I said and how I said it. Once more let me say, this is game playing. And may I say that in my experience fundies do basically the same sort of thing in a slightly more simplistic way. Considering my history with fundy-ville and my history with a super smart sibling it is a wonder I can function at all.

Beakerj wrote:

Okay… it’s laaaate here in England! Can someone fix -or translate -my mangled formatting

I will do it this evening.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Chris Calloway wrote:

That aside — look at what Phillips says about Tullian’s poor exegesis of 1 John 5:2-3. Are you really saying that Phillips is misrepresenting Tullian’s interpretation? You can’t. You may not like that Phillips publicly corrects him, but isn’t it possible that Phillips is right and Tullian’s is intransigent?

Sounds all too much like “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

With overtones of “Thou Shalt Break thy Egg at the Most Convenient End.”
“BIG END! DIE, HERETIC!”
“SMALL END! DIE, HERETIC!”
(h/t Jonathan Swift)

That’s what you get when you have lawyers (like Calvin) writing Theology.

Not even related to what I wrote. Nice that you remove the quoted portion from its context (Nancy’s admission that she came to the discussion completely unprepared), which matters a great deal. Same tactic Tullian uses in his wanting exegesis of the passage. You didn’t even bother looking into the exchange to which I refer. Instead it’s all fling and sling.

Not sure what happened there ^ Lisa. I know you said more than ‘ag’ lol

Here’s what you said in your comment I responded to above:

Recently, I was in a business relationship with a real whacko and while trying to figure her out, I came across an article(s) on characteristics of controlling people and abusers. One is that they “control information”. Example: I gave notice to this lady that my daughter will no longer be studying with her. She then emails another teacher that my daughter studies with to let her know. Never mind the fact that she has never met or spoken with my daughter’s other teacher, they live an hour apart, and teach different things! I am on excellent terms with the other teacher and have been for years, so she just forwarded me the email. But the controlling, abusive teacher could not let me go on my terms. She had to control the information. I think CJ is showing us a glimpse of himself…a controller and an abuser. He had to control the info, not Tullian. For the fun of it, I’m going to post some of the other characteristics of controllers and abusers: Will not be doubted, criticized or questioned, aggressive toward critics, demand you behave as they want you to, information from outside sources is criticized and discounted, favor individuals who are loyal, try to destroy your reputation, uses weird and warped logic, deny that certain things were ever said, never accepts blame, manipulates people to become dependent on him, is secretive and self righteous, his word is law, engages in power plays. Any of that familiar? @ Paula

ME wrote:

CJ has released a statement here:

What I love is the trickle of articles coming from those quarters that say something like “I can’t comment on this” followed by comment. And yet nothing has changed, legally, in the intervening space. Sigh. Why couldn’t CJ have expressed hoc *concern* for the victims earlier? Oh, unless…no, I refuse to believe that.

An Attorney wrote:

Theology is not truly the study of God. I have long said that theology is more the study of human thinking about God as expressed in their writings (and more recently lectures, if taped). So it is a form of psychology and sociology of those who seem to have time to ponder the nature of God and the relationship of humans to God. And so, most of the time spent by people called theologians is spent reading a parsing other theologians. That generally takes small errors and makes them into huge mistakes, and results in the fatal error: Focusing on the tiniest nit and ignoring the tornado while complaining that the other guy is focusing on the rivulet and ignoring the tsunami.

This is excellent and accurate.

__

Has da Ceege got many a neo -cal by da proverbial testis having apparently fead them dough and ‘religious cadmium nonsense’ (r_Cd_n) for years?

  __

  __

“FUD_TheoCycles (C) : Go Round N’ Round?”

@ Nancy

…preach (ed. -ing ) “Jesus loves you, maybe, sort of, except, more or less.” ?

hmmm…

Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) [1] is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, propaganda, and 501(c)3 religious environments.

huh?

“FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information.” [1]

What?

An individual 501(c)3 Religious establishment, for example, might use FUD to maintain leverage over a current church member who could potentially become ‘Biblically Sentient’ (c).

(sadface)

Sopy
___
[1] Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

—

@ Sopwith:

Oh, my goodness. Read the article, especially the part about non-computer uses, and the referenced article Appeal to Fear. Great information. That is so useful in understanding controlling church environments. The concept of you better…or else, as applied to some made up nonsense not found in scripture or in any half sane human mind—bound to be manipulation, pure and simple. I had just written it off as defective thinking/doctrine/exegesis/reading comprehension. Nah. Intentional manipulation. I can’t believe I missed that one. Thanks. Hey, thanks again.

mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote: Additionally, the people who supported Mahaney all these decades, the people who have provided cover, they need to come out and tell what they knew, when they knew it and when they told Mahaney. “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God…” 1 Peter 4:17a

YES!

Chris Calloway wrote:

If what you are getting at is that they have failed in response to the SGM abuse scandal…OK…

OhhhhKAY..

What I was referring to is the real fact that the SGM scandal is pretty much the tip of the iceberg, from where I see things. I have MANY friends who are adult survivors of child sexual abuse, from many sources – combined with ritual abuse, parents, family members, friends of the family, etc. And they are in various states of fighting for sobriety, dissociating on a regular basis, having multiple personalities, and so on. YES THESE PEOPLE EXIST.

I don’t know why TT is supposed to compete with his brother, Boz. He has been extremely sensitive to the victims in the past. He was horrified with that statement that came out a year ago standing behind CJ Mahaney.

If he was just as silent as those folks in the past, well he isn’t now. All those people want to talk about is their nitpicky controlling views of grace.

Sure, Deacons, missions, and outreach are nice ideas. Congrats on the warm fuzzy people with their kind intentions.

There just is so much ignorance in mainstream evangelical Christianity about the sexually abused. Do you dispute the fact that at least 1 in 6 people that you meet in your lifetime will have been sexually abused? I’m giving you a conservative number so you don’t balk.

To be continued….

Chris Calloway wrote:

“When was the last time you even heard a New Calvinist leader utter the name of Christ, let along talk about being Christ-centred?”
That is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. And you know that.

Please provide links to sermons where Christ is properly honored, by the celebrity pastors of your choice. See my comment above. I want to make sure I listen to some of the “best” that these people have to offer.

May wrote:

OK, perhaps I overstated it – but from these guys I hear so much more about the GOSPEL, or as Dee and Deb would have it, GOSPEL trademarked, than I do about Christ. Seriously, when was the last time you heard the term ‘Christ-centred’ rather than ‘Gospel-centred’?

If you look at neo Calvinist Mark Driscoll – and I don’t blame you if you don’t 😆 – he does mention the name of Jesus a lot (his church likes to print the phrase “It’s all about Jesus” on a lot of their materials), but Driscoll’s behavior is so unseemly it negates all the J-name dropping.

But your point is well taken. The Neo Cal guys do spend a lot of time using words such as “Gospel” and “winsome” but I haven’t often heard the title “Christ” or the name “Jesus” from them.

But I think my Driscoll example goes to show even when they do name drop JC’s name, their behavior is so messed up, it doesn’t make much of a difference anyway.

Muff Potter wrote:

@ An Attorney:

I get it too. I have seen more of Jesus in a little mother beagle who takes in an orphaned kitten than I have in the combined writings of Augustine, Calvin, Luther, and R.C. Sproul combined.

Preach it Muff! Applause from England.

burnrnorton wrote:

lawyering

That is a word they use in eastern NC. Very handy and descriptive. And of no relevance at all, another term they uses is toucheous (sore, tender). Also very descriptive.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

That would be awesome – and I have to say, you live in an absolutely gorgeous part of the country. My grandparents have a farm out in Anne Arundel.

Doc, your grandparents are blessed – farmland has vanished here in this county over the past 20 years. Development has pretty much overtaken it all. There are still a few pretty areas left, though.

Sorry about the misimpression. You are very intelligent and obviously educated. and made some comments that suggested a legally trained mind was behind them, and that is intended as a compliment and not a diss. .

I have a particular interest in attorneys, whether in practice as an attorney or not. So include yourself if you wish. I have two projects in mind that I would like to share with people with a legal background.

acg116 wrote:

Paula…a question for you (and for anyone else to entertain)…do you think that the issues at CLC were a direct result of their reformed theology? As I’ve seen the continuing defense of him, I wonder how much of it is because people are saying “who isn’t a sinner…everyone does something bad, so who are you to judge CJ? You probably looked lustfully at a woman today, so you’re no judge…” (basically sin leveling). I wonder if his view of total depravity was that everyone did something bad, so no one can complain about anything, therefore why should we inform the police?

I think its a total lack of empathy, frankly. Now, the theology may have been used as a mental excuse, but the simple truth is, that we are dealing here with a case (many cases) of not having what the KJV of my youth calls “the bowels of compassion”–that being, in the language of its day, considered the physical source of empathy/sympathy/compassion.
You can see this in the repeated comparisons of the sufferings of a raped child to CJ’s discomfort at not being anymore universally adored in his own little corner of the world; to him, it seems that HE is the one truly suffering…..
The comparison that leaped to mind as I was typing this: Whilst in jail on trial for the murder of one of her children, & the attempted murder of two others, Elizabeth Diane Downs whined to a fellow prisoner that “I don’t see why they’re making such a fuss. After all, its not like I can’t have more children”. (She was convicted; google for the details).

  __

“A Race To Da Proverbial Exit, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

  When the Christian faith becomes little more than a set of ‘theological propositions and categories’ [1], you’re in da wrong place…

huh?

You search da scriptures, thinkin’ in them they contain ‘ life’, but refuse to come to the Son of God, for healing, and refreshment…

What?

Think your theology will save you?

(crickets…)

hahahahahahaha

think again.

“Lift Up Jesus Get Results” (c)

(grin)

Sopy
___
Notes: 
[1]  http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-calls-gospel-coalitions-claims-attributed-to-tim-keller-d-a-carson-about-his-exit-a-flat-out-lie-120272/

–

Comic relief: “TGC Theo-Wars: Pastoral ‘Storm-Trippin’ ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SpNHMwwID4

🙂

—

zooey111 wrote:

The comparison that leaped to mind as I was typing this: Whilst in jail on trial for the murder of one of her children, & the attempted murder of two others, Elizabeth Diane Downs whined to a fellow prisoner that “I don’t see why they’re making such a fuss. After all, its not like I can’t have more children”.

Followed by “But first, LET ME TAKE A SELFIE”?

You can see this in the repeated comparisons of the sufferings of a raped child to CJ’s discomfort at not being anymore universally adored in his own little corner of the world; to him, it seems that HE is the one truly suffering…..

“Poor Poor Me — LET ME TAKE ANOTHER SELFIE!”

Eric Rasmusen wrote:

@ Deb:

You’re right that this is crucial. Someone is lying. It is sad of course, when pastors lie, but it is useful when a premeditated, important, lie is caught because it reveals so much. Whether or not the TGC visit to Pastor T. in Florida was for talking about his theology is important, and, most importantly, outsiders can, with a little extra evidence, determine who is lying and who is telling the truth. Do please get and post that evidence, and, of course, offer the other side a chance to reply and report back that you made the offer and if it was rejected or ignored.

Hi Eric,

I’m just now seeing your comments and I’m sorry I haven’t replied sooner. You asked me about my post regarding movies Mahaney has donated to his friends and their organizations right? And thank you for asking for links. I don’t have hard evidence for my assertions, but I think it can be deduced from some info we do have on hand that Mahaney made generous use of SGM money to secure relationships for himself with those outside the ministry he was working on developing – and which as we know developed into partnerships and money making ventures of his own. How much donated SGM $$ made its way back into SGM as Mahaney expanded his career via his speaking engagements & conference appearances, we don’t know. For a man who pretended he wasn’t motivated by money and didn’t keep track of it himself, I’m guessing he has an extremely good idea of what the exact numbers are. Further it should be noted that Bob Kauflin’s career was likewise enhanced through CJ’s efforts, for wherever CJ went, Bob Kauflin was also sure to go.

I don’t have the link handy but I think Deb provided it here. It was her research that revealed CJ’s donation to Al Mohler and the SBTS. Without double checking, I don’t know if the donation was listed as personal or if it was made in the name of SGM. I also don’t recall the amount, but it was generous.

I recently posted this video in which Mark Dever talks about CJ’s generosity and his gift giving, and indicated he and his ministry were on the receiving end of Mahaney’s & Covenant Life Churches donations to him and his church. Is it any wonder why he and his wife took shelter at CHBC after leaving CLC, and why Dever took them in? (link to video posted at top where my phone always adds links instead of where I want them to appear like here, at this point, in the comment where it applies. Wonder if there’s a fix for that…)

Again, no transparency at CLC. Members were not informed about the ways in which their money was being divested, and certainly weren’t encouraged to ask questions because that would reflect a “lack of trust in your pastors and their leadership who were always working to watch out for and care for your souls.” CJ, as we know, operated without accountability and assumed ownership over the whole kit & kabootle. Did the recipients of his gifts ask questions? Of course not. And now that members have been speaking out and revealing CJ’s alleged corruptions, are they second quessing him and feeling like they were given money they shouldn’t have been receiving? Doesn’t look that way to me!

Btw, I’m with you on your comment about the impression TLC gave regarding their delegation to Florida to visit Tullian. Two conflicting stories there and it appears the version coming out of TLC doesn’t really wash.

While on this subject and thinking out-loud, if you had been the recipient of monies like, say, Mahaney’s friends have been, and assumed at time that the money could be trusted but then later came to discover it was donated under false pretenses by a less than honorable ‘servant of the Lord’…wouldn’t that put you in a pickle?

And say, if you were someone (like Mahaney’s friends) who believed your message and your ministry were so aligned with the truth that you assumed you possessed immunity from being played but really weren’t, wouldn’t that serve to undermine a great deal about you and call into question the integrity of your ministry? And what if the problem – the hook – was the same one as is being exposed in your friend? It certainly wouldn’t look good if were revealed you shared in the same sin that caused the devil to fall from heaven, right? And if it was pride and not the Gospel that was the glue in your relationships, is pride still the reason why you’re not coming clean because calling out Mahaney and calling him a fraud would call too much about you and your association with him into question?

So, no, it seems the best thing to do is ignore the voices of Mahaney’s detractors and those of his alleged victims, and continue to stand with him because really, in doing so, you’re protecting yourself. I guess it would be best to just carry on, business as usual, “cross” your fingers (little pun there), and hope it all blows over sooner than later, right?

Problem is, the only thing blowing over are the clouds, allowing the sun to shine brighter and brighter on the whole CJ Mahaney/SGM scandal. Those who have sought shelter under the clouds they hoped would shield the sun from shining, are ending up getting heavily rained on and what’s worse, those those clouds appear to be gathering into storms.

Where can Mark Dever run for shelter if he’s caught in the storm? Can he run to SGCL and take shelter under the wing of CJ Mahaney? And if he did, how would that make him look? Not good, not good. In fact, everyone who goes to SGCL preaching in support of Mahaney comes out looking bad. It looks as those who claim they’re not “professionals” have been bought.

@ Jenny:

I think it’s permission from donors or by a court order, actually.

Jenny wrote:

Paula, do you know if folks at CLC got to designate their donations to specific ministries, or were all donations dumped into a general fund? I’m not an attorney, but it’s my understanding that if donations went into restricted funds for the benefit of specific ministries it would have been illegal for anyone to use those funds for something else without permission from the donors.

I do not know what happened after 2001, or if any changes were made. But while I was there from 1989 – 2001 the only time I heard about the money being earmarked for specific things were at Celebration, when the money collected went towards the planting of new churches that were planned and promoted at that time.

I understand there was supposed to be a Mission Fund, and there was money raised after Hurricane Katrina (was it?). People gave money to his fund after being told it would be used for outreach and for relief in afflicted areas. However, no one has accounted, from my knowledge, of what became of all that money.

Moreover, Bob Kaulfin was in the Phillipines last year conducting an SGM Music Conference (Worship God) along with SBTS students that were part of the Norton Hall Band when the terrible hurricane hit, causing extreme devastation in Bohol and Cebu where they had gone with the stated intention of ministering the gospel.

I couldn’t help but think it would have been a perfect opportunity for SGM to put flesh on their gospel-centered claims and work to do more than conduct a conference and perform music, but to actually serve the lives of displaced and afflicted people they found themselves suddenly in the midst of.

If there had been a sizeable Mission Fund, wouldnt this have been the PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to have these full-time SGM guys (Kauflin & his team) stay there to serve and wire SGM so that they could send them some of that money so they could put it to use??

But no, that didn’t happen. And no one knows anything about what became of that Mission Fund either.

@ Paula:
Clarification!

I should have added to my comment that I am not saying Mahaney comes anywhere near the German leader I referred to, only that I am of the opinion something similar seems to be at work in seed form. We all know there are varying degrees of everything good and evil.

I meant to include this in my comment but I wrote in under a time constraint and I didn’t communicate my points very well and trusted what i said would not be misconstrued. My apologies to anyone who assumed I was putting both men on the same level somehow.

To be sure there are perplexing issues at play within the whole SGM saga, many of them centering naturally on its main character. In light of his recent denial of all wrongdoing, and because of the lack of agreement with him by sincere believers who hold to a polar opposite view, it led me to examine my opinions regarding Mahaney, and especially in light of being asked what I thought about him and his use of reformed theology that he introduced by stealth into SGM.

So, what I’m saying is that in seed form, and on much smaller scale compared to the German leader, Mahaney (in my opinion) didn’t really believe much himself but rather adopted certain beliefs that he recognized other people would believe in and follow, and which he could act out in his own life. Over time I think he came to believe he personally embodied the things he taught, and came to believe in his own rectitude. His family, whom he lavishly rewarded for their solidarity, happily contributed to the impression that Mahaney was a god who functioned on a higher level. Case in point (notice how scripted she is): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOGXsOp6r2A
There’s plenty of evidence pointing to the fact Mahaney developed an unrealistic view of himself, from all the times he mentioned his “legacy”, seeing himself as the embodiment of male leadership and biblical manhood, to being an “apostle” and then a “pastor” who is also an “athlete.” I think he ended up buying into his own act and believing.

Anyway, I know some of this is redundant but I wanted to add some further explanation for the benefit of those who had read my earlier comment and for those who may have had questions regarding my thought process. And I apologize that I wasnt as thorough and complete as I should have been considering the delicacy surrounding the use of the German leader as an example of the kind of thing I was trying to explain.