"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also…"
It was a long, cold winter for much of the United States; however, one congregation in Rochester, New York has discovered how to heat things up as they try to reach the lost for Jesus.
In recent years Victory Church has been garnering media attention because of its Mixed Martial Arts program. And for the ladies, there's Fitness Chics. The church also has other fitness training programs. According to its website, Victory Church's mission and vision are as follows:
Vision
To follow Christ completely.
Mission Statement
Reach the lost with his message.
Restore the fallen with his love and grace.
Train the next generation to do the same.Motto
Love God, Love People.
The church's senior pastor, Paul Burress, recently told an ABC News reporter:
“We’ve been able to reach an awful lot of people that never would have walked into a normal church service before, but they’ll come over and do some fitness training or do some jiu-jitsu…”
You may remember that several years ago the UK's Daily Mail featured a story about Fight Church entitled: The brutal world of evangelical Christians and Mixed Martial Arts revealed in new 'Fight Church' documentary (link)
This article revealed that a Kickstarter campaign had generated $30,000 in donations to fund a documentary that portrays a "growing relationship between Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and Evangelical Christianity". It further states:
Oscar winning short film-maker, Daniel Junge, . . . wants to travel the country to interview religious MMA figures.
And that is exactly what Junge has done. The documentary will premiere at the Independent Film Festival of Boston, to be held on April 24. Here is the official trailer.
Did you catch that line at the 1:30 mark – "Mainstream Christianity has feminized men"? And Mixed Martial Arts is the answer?
With its upcoming premier fast approaching, this controversial documentary is capturing national media attention. Here is the segment that aired last Friday on ABC's Good Morning America.
The Huffington Post has also published an article about this strange phenomenon. It begins as follows:
The upcoming documentary "Fight Church" released its official trailer this week, and it provides a fascinating window into the unusual world of fighting pastors.
Directed by Bryan Storkel and Academy Award-winner Daniel Junge, the film examines the contradictory phenomenon of religious leaders practicing mixed martial arts (MMA), asking the question, "Can you love your neighbor as yourself and at the same time knee him in the face as hard as you can?"
Storkel and Junge told The Huffington Post that they became interested in the project after hearing about a pastor with a "fight ministry," and realized that there were hundreds of churches around the country used fights as a way of building community and attracting new congregants. "That's what was shocking to us," they said. Junge added, "Beyond churches that had formal or informal fight ministries, we discovered innumerable churches that included MMA as a component of a men's program."
The visual promo for this documentary (featured in the Huffington Post article) states:
Punch Thy Neighbor – FIGHT CHURCH – A Documentary about MMA Fighting and Christianity
And Gretchen Carlson, who now has her own gig on Fox News (called The Real Story w/ Gretchen Carlson), interviewed Paul Burress and Daniel Junge earlier this week. On her Facebook page, Carlson posted this question:
Q: There’s a powerful new film, Fight Church, about pastors who practice mixed martial arts with their parishioners – in church! Should MMA fighting be allowed in church?
So far there are a handful of comments, with this one coming from a pastor:
Pastor Jason Gant
Fight clubs have no place in church. The whole reason for "church" is fellowship with one another in order to worship and honor our Living God, Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul reminds us to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." (Ephesians 5:11) The key word here is "unfruitful." Boxing, football, or any other worldly pursuit doesn't honor God, but rather distracts us from a spiritual fellowship with Him.
We are greatly concerned about this physical expression of 'masculine Christianity' and believe it is harmful to the cause of Christ. We want to encourage you to share your opinions both here and on Gretchen Carlson's Facebook page (at the above link).
We are left wondering what will be the next 'Christian' gimmick – POLE DANCING FOR JESUS?
Oh yeah, that already exists… Hallelujah! Christians Pole Dance for Jesus in Texas
We must be living in the end times. đ
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 3:16-6:14 Hebrews 4:1-16 Psalm 104:24-35 Proverbs 26:27
We are left wondering what will be the next ‘Christian’ gimmick â POLE DANCING FOR JESUS?
Please! Let’s hope not.
@ singleman:
Too late… It already exists. đ
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2011/03/christians-who-pole-dance/
Deebs!!! No more end times comments puleeeeeeeeeeeeese! I’m still trying to get Kirk Cameron’s Left Behind which I watched with some Crusade guys in 1999 out of my mind. I have worked so hard to avoid any church that has an obsession with end times theology. That and disaster theology to!
@ Eagle:
I was just kidding!!! đ
You know what I find deeply ironic? For all this talk about the feminization of men in church I am amazed as to how many Neo-Reformed guys are wussies that have a spine of cooked linguine. In some interactions with some individuals I noticed that:
1. They can’t assert themself properly.
2. Can’t have or handle difficult conversations.
3. Send mixed messages and mixed signals leaving the other person confused.
4. Hardly know you but want you to spill your deepest secret after talking to you for 5 minutes.
6. Follow man-childs who are permanently stuck in puberty (Mark Driscoll)
7. AND when they can’t handle a situation then you see something like an adult version of a kindergartner running to their pastor or other authority figure claiming their feelings are hurt, and hiding behind that person.
Why is it that many non-reformed men act more like men?
Why is it that many non-Christian men have bigger b###s (ed.) then neo-reformed men?
Golly that felt good getting that off my chest!!! Wonder why? đ Have to quote the Beaver on this one….
I think the cognitive dissonance I experienced for those links caused me to tap out.
A lot of the reasoning in that movie trailer seems to run a bit contrary to the beatitudes…
I thought it wasn’t our job to fight our enemies and certainly not to put our foot on their necks.
I want to thank God for the various people he’s put in my life that have really modeled Jesus to me. I think many of the people in that film would find them “too feminized”.
BTW…I would like to know what kind of man…
1. Overlooks church corruption
2. Let’s a child be abused and covers it up.
3. Ignores the least of these.
4. Treats his wife like crap and is disrespectful to her.
5. Refuse to take ownership for their messes.
6. Doesn’t seek out forgiveness and reconciliation from people they hurt either intentional or unintentional.
@ srs:
Remember SRS to be truly humble you first need to blackmail your ministry partner. That is followed by making your wife kiss the porcelain God and make her sacrifice when she is dealing with morning sickness; THEN demand sex from her then and there. Remember her only goal is to submit. THEN you run a church like East Germany with an internal version of the Stasi, leading to websites like SGM Survivors.
THEN you publish a book and then you are truly Humble. Which bald dude does this remind me of? Oh yeah…the one who called Sovereign Grace the happiest place on earth before he fled to Mark Dever’s church and hide behind his skirt.
So what kinds of problems would go away if (men) raised their voices to be men? (from the trailer)
I’ll tell you something funny. My daughter takes karate classes from a wonderful Christian man (5th degree black belt, former missionary). These classes are all about classic martial arts, including an emphasis on discipline and self-control, and are taught in the gym at a local kinda-mega church.
There are at least as many girls in class as boys. And the girls advance faster because they are more focused and disciplined than their male peers.
Anyway, I guess we will have to start keeping an eye out for the “my pastor can beat up your pastor” bumper stickers.
Don’t forget the similar
Fight Club site
Visit their “store” link where you can buy a DVD series entitled “DUDES” (with photos of tough guys on the cover), and the Fight Club basic supply kit for $249.
It seems to me that this sort of thing (including the Fight Church movie mentioned in the original post) is for very insecure or deeply confused men.
It’s funny how some Christians are very concerned about gender identity debates, the increasing number of people questing their gender, and so on, and yet, this “Fight club / Fight church” type stuff seems to be just another version or facet of that.
It’s like some people in some churches and denominations think it’s their duty to explain to men what being a man really is or really means (to them, it = love of cage fighting, MMA, and beer drinking).
They also think it’s their duty to explain to women what it means to be a woman.
(But it’s usually a man explaining to women what it means to be a woman, which I find irritating, their occasional, token women mouthpieces aside, and it usually = bake cookies, marry, have children.)
Quote:
Did you catch that line at the 1:30 mark – “Mainstream Christianity has feminized men”?
I don’t know. Has it?
For one thing, ever since those books by male Christian authors came out around the late 1990s (“Why men are leaving the church” or whatever it was called), churches have over-corrected this perceived problem.
I’ve read of churches that are too manly-man to the point that women don’t feel welcomed at them, and men who don’t fit the “beer guzzling, macho” stereotype don’t feel welcomed, either.
Jesus Christ embodied characteristics most Americans would consider feminine as well as masculine.
Christians are called to emulate Christ (that would include Christian males emulating Jesus’ tender, compassionate, gentle side), so I find it off putting that the people in the video are saying “Christianity feminizes men.”
Here is a good page that talks about some of these things:
The “Feminization” of the Church by K R Wordgazer
That quote again,
“Mainstream Christianity has feminized men”?
I find this laughable, because in a lot of American churches and denominations, men do not permit women to be in leadership roles or in any meaningful, decision-making positions.
Meaning, if U.S. males are finding churches “too feminized,” they themselves to blame for that. They’re the ones in charge, making all the decisions.
They overly-feminize women who are not hyper-feminine, such as myself. I’ve little interest in serving in a nursery, kitchen, or other stereotypical role that is considered appropriate for a woman. They don’t seem to factor in women such as myself.
Thanks for this post, Deebs! I hadn’t heard of this film.
Too many problematic aspects to these macho men Christians to even name much less discuss. Two quick thoughts:
– concepts of gender are very much culturally defined. “Masculine” and “feminine” vary from nation to nation, culture to culture, and era to era. Just look at medieval European depictions of knights and nobles! How does one decide which gender definitions are “biblical” without contaminating Scripture with one’s own sociocultural baggage?
-anytime anyone obsessively fixates on an issue, they likely struggle with that issue. Show me the major repeating motifs in a pastor’s sermons and I’ll show you what he personally struggles with. A man doesn’t obsess about asserting masculinity unless he struggles with deep insecurity. These men need good therapy, not fight clubs. (Sadly, I’m guessing that therapy is “feminine” by their standards…)
Hi Deb,
Did you get the email I sent (as a reply to one you sent me) on a topic closely related to this?
http://theotherjournal.com/2011/06/28/the-confessions-of-a-cage-fighter-masculinity-misogyny-and-the-fear-of-losing-control/
I saw this trailer on TV the other day. Just plain stupid. Per feminization, so now anything that isn’t MMA is “feminine”? If that’s the case then I think most men have been “feminine” for a couple millennia now.
When I first saw the ad I thought for sure Mark Driscoll would have something to do with this.
That pastor in the FB comment is (generally) right, though his last sentence sounds way too much like “anything that isn’t spiritual is bad” or “all sports are bad” to me.
Hester wrote:
As stupid as the men-fighting-in-a-cage thing is (it’s “pure”, all right: pure animalism), I agree with you re the aforesaid pastor’s FB comment; at best, it’s a bit ambiguous. To me, it sounds like “anything that isn’t churchy/religious isn’t spiritual”, which would be a shame. Still, it is just a short comment (perhaps I could learn from it!), so maybe we shouldn’t read too much into it!
Do they let the women fight each other?
Dave wrote:
Sorry Deb, I meant Dee
Lucy Pevensie wrote:
This is certainly plausible with the 'fight church' gurus and 'fan'atics.
The Strength Team recently came to North Carolina to share the message of Jesus. Now this is a group of Masculine Men whom I can respect.
@ mot:
You mean a cat fight over the man who is Godlier! đ Where is the popcorn and coke!!
@ Dave:
I am about 200 emails backed up. Could you please send it to me again and put today’s post in the subject line? I’m sorry.
@ mot:
The TaeKwonDo school where my oldest granddaughter got her first degree black belt required, of course, sparring. Sparring partners for any particular session were matched according to size and skill level without limiting it to male on male or female on female, though female on female was done when possible. She sparred with guys, sometimes. And they with her. It was excellent training for mind and body, since people had to get over both themselves and some cultural ideas in a lot of ways.
They respected females more at TKD than they did at church. Imagine that.
Eagle wrote:
You sound a little like my-son-the-career-prosecutor talking about how many people simply do not want to have a “confrontation” at all. Except you are saying neo-reformed and he is saying the whole population. And the percentage of people he thinks are like that is a huge percentage of folks.
IMO, people need to be willing and able to confront and to stand their ground and do what is necessary to “win” is there is a necessity for that approach. “Confronting” and standing your ground in the face of (whatever) are not evil and are not un-chris-tlike. Just look at how Jesus did. Wow.
@ Nancy:
“if” there is a necessityâŚ
not “is”
Did anyone else observe the skateboard culture taking over evangelical youth ministry in the mid-90s to the early 2000s? Around my area, it was all the rage. I had a long conversation with a youth pastor who was ready to adopt it pointing out that it did not appeal to the mainstream of kids but only to one small group and why was it suddenly the be-all and end-all of youth ministry? We had youth pastors coming in to the Christian school I taught at dressed in full out teenage skateboarder gear and trying to use the slang–at age 45 or so and they looked and sounded completely ridiculous. A traveling skate for Jesus side show even came to town to have a festival and convert kids.
It was all so gimmicky and weird and pointless and then it went away. And now it is MMA and such…okay. Whatever. If your version of Jesus is so unappealing that you have to wrap him in pop culture to reach anyone, you’re doing it all wrong.
@ Nancy:
un-christ-like
I miss these mistakes partly because of my vision / prior eye surgery / trifocals. And partly because i just do. Sorry, folks.
ar wrote:
It so happens that I got a skateboard – my first ever – for my 45th birthday last year. Except, of course, I am fully aware of how weird I look. Not that I care!
@ ar:
None of which detracts from your point, ar…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I used to know someone who did inline skating. Have you tried that?
Eagle wrote:
I got twenty years on you, Eagle. I’m still trying to get Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth out of my mind.
ar wrote:
Like that vintage Doonesbury strip where a narc is working undercover — trying to blend into Seventies counterculture using Fifties beatnik slang:
“Hey, Daddy-O! What’s is like being a dope fiend in this town?”
“Not bad. What’s it like being a DEA agent?”
Hester wrote:
He would have made his point much better if he’d written that comment in English instead of Christianese (chapter-and-verse zip codes and all).
One more before I heid aff into Alloa with my teenage son to do our weekly Tough And Manly Meat Shopping (there’s a good butcher there and it’s market day).
The pastor at the first church I joined, 26 years ago, I am still in close touch with today. Back in those days, he was a keen and accomplished squash-player (he probably still is, though obviously 26 years older!). As a part of discipling young leaders in the church, he used to play them at squash (assuming they were into racquet sports too). As he said to me recently: I never just let them win. But I always tried to teach them to become good enough to beat me. Of course, a squash match is not a fight, but the point was that he was using sport to encourage and build up others so that they could excel him.
I cannot but feel, looking at the evidence Fiscal has himself provided, that for him, fighting is not a sport-based medium for cultivating mutual respect and for raising up others. It is for putting others down and establishing dominance. For men like Fiscal, creation in general and humanity in particular is all one giant pecking-order, with the strong at the top and the weak at the bottom. Those on a “higher” rung get special privileges in regard to how they treat those “below” them. Therefore, the fundamental evil of sin is not that it severed relationships but that it disrupted God’s hierarchy, and “church discipline” is really more to do with re-establishing who is in charge. And, of course, Fiscal himself has been appointed By God’s Grace⢠to a high rung in that pecking-order.
mot wrote:
Only if they’re in a mud pit in string bikinis…
Well, that’s… different.
srs wrote:
Thanks for asking this, srs. I wondered exactly the same thing. Just what kind of “girly man” problems are they trying to “solve” by forcing kids into MMA cage matches? A dearth of concussions? A shortage of broken bones? A surplus of undamaged organs?
Anyone know what the average life expectancy is for MMA fighters? I know it’s awfully low for professional wrestlers. Case in point: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ultimate-warrior-wwe-hall-famer-dies-54-050829768.html
Apologies to all if the link is off topic. Hearing that he died so young was saddening for me. The thought of Christian men not wanting to risk dying so young, and of some pastors considering them “feminized”, saddens and angers me more.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
ANIMAL forced-dominance display. Like prison rape. (Remember the orifice of controversy in Real Marriage?)
Though the vibe I get is more of a baby-faced Buttery Doughy Guy beating up someone vicariously. (“I Can Beat You Up! I’m TOUGH! See? See? See?”) If this was Rome some 1900 years ago, he’d be a welfare bum sitting as close as he could get to the Arena in the Flavian Ampitheatre, screaming “KILL! KILL! KILL!” at the gladiators below.
With HIMSELF at the very top of the Strong. The Alpha of all Alpha Males.
“The Weak are the meat which the Strong do eat.”
Daisy wrote:
<blockquote in the original post)
They also think itâs their duty to explain to women what it means to be a woman.
(But itâs usually a man explaining to women what it means to be a woman, which I find irritating, their occasional, token women mouthpieces aside, and it usually = bake cookies, marry, have children.)
That’s what I find irritating. When I see men on a panel talking about how complementarianism is foundational to the gospel, and not Jesus, I know they’ve officially grounded their faith in their own identity as a man. Protecting their position, to them, is synonymous with protecting their faith. They’ve completely taken their eyes off the Shepherd.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Like the one genuine neo-Nazi I ran into in my college years. Very adamant about how the Natural Order separates humanity into Master Race and Subhuman — guess which category he put himself into?
What you win them with is what you win them to…
ar wrote:
“WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS;
WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND —
COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
— Emerson Lake & Palmer, “Karn Evil Nine”
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I hesitate to link my comment to yours, Nick, because you are so measured and careful in what you say, and I am so—well, not. So forgive me up front. But I just agree with this observation so much.
There seems to be a fair amount of pitting people against each other in the “neo” crowd as a whole and in “Fiscal” in particular. Leadership against the sheep. Male against female. Our kind against their kind. Calvinist against everybody else. The saved against the lost. Pseudo-macho guys against any other kind of guy, (huge red flag here), passive and easily controlled women against the rest of the female population. And there is the conflict between the right political ideas against the wrong political ideas. And for sure, but not spelled out, folks with some money against the lesser blest financially.
They seem to be trying to carve out a privileged class, all chosen by God of course, and all under the control of the leadership. Some of the issues look a little different, but I can remember when similar techniques were played out on the world stage with tragic consequences in a certain war of recent memory. Not saying! Not saying! Just looking at the techniques involved.
@ Nick Bulbeck: I think it’s odd for someone to use a game – which is intended to be fun – for “teaching.” Did this guy ever simply play for the sheer joy of it? If not, then I don’t see much point in playing at all…
I say send them to the swamps with the Duck Dynasty guys. They can duke it out while the others do target practice, and leave the rest of us in peace….I think the Savior weeps over the American Church.
@ numo:
Don’t have time for a detailed reply – mission accomplished at the butcher’s, it’s time to take the weans to visit the grandparents – so I’ll just say this:
1) Playing sport competitively, and enjoying sport together, are not mutually exclusive.
2) And in encouraging them to excel him, Tony has enabled them – I’m still in touch with most of them – to appreciate everything he taught them, which of course went a lot further than the squash court, without ever being tempted to idolise him.
{sigh} To me, one of the primary messages of the Gospel is to turn us away from all the destructive impulses we have as humans such as selfishness, the need for dominance, the inclination toward anger and violence as a first response to disagreement, etc. and focus on getting along and working together as the only way to make the world better for everyone. But that’s just me.
@ Nancy:
Interesting comment. Now that you’ve brought up the Neo crowd (I’m assuming you meant Neo-Cal), I have an ‘observation’.
The movement appears to have stagnated, probably for the reasons you cite. They claim to be “Together for the Gospel”, but there is way too much of “us” versus “them”.
Since the T4G crowd loves to boast about their numbers, let’s take a look at them.
Here’s what Trevin Wax wrote about T4G 2012:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2012/04/16/reflections-on-together-for-the-gospel-2012/
And here is what Denny Burk Tweeted about T4G 2014:
https://twitter.com/DennyBurk/status/453695810434514944/photo/1
I listened to Al Mohler’s remarks on Tuesday night (via live streaming), and I believe he stated there were “over 7,000 attendees”.
Whatever the actual number of participants, it appears that those who are “Together for the Gospel” are losing momentum because there has been no apparent growth over the last two years if attendance numbers are any indication. Just sayin'.
Off topic, but…
I’ve learned from another blog about a debate, going on live now, at the Council of Europe. It’s regarding a proposal to introduce new laws in the EU to protect minors from the particular abuses of harmful religious groups.
Anyone interested can watch it online at: http://webtv.coe.int/index.php?CategoryID=56763&SubCategoryID=56776
If I were a man, I would feel so insulted by these campaigns. An analogous situation would be if there was a campaign to recruit more women in church and so they painted all the walls pink and had knitting and paper doll making clubs, and said, “see! now it’s a place for women, too!” Just because someone is a guy doesn’t mean he necessarily wants to chest-bump a bunch of undereducated and insular 40 year old juvenile delinquents in order to get closer to God.
@ Moxie:
But that just means he’s a chickified wuss and they don’t want his kind, either. Gender essentialism is stupid and hurts both genders.
is physical violence the only alternative to feminity?
Fighting is just fighting IMO. I don’t see gender to it any more than I can see gender in any sport, so goes another argument for male dominance lost on me. My husband loves to watch cage fighting and he is always trying to educate me on the sport of it. I can’t stand to watch the guys fight. I have to admit though that when I see women’s sport fighting I watch quite a bit longer. I think it is because I am athletic and competitive and watching women’s sports of any kind I can physically identify with the strategy and moves.
I might however be entertained at a Driscoll vs. Piper Pastor fight. Piper’s all for enduring a ‘smack’ for a night.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ddFbELpXTcg
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3OkUPc2NLrM at 2:46
@ chris:
Your comment reminds me of an experienced I had at our old A29 church. A group of ladies got together and decided that the preaching was overly male-focused, and that as women it was difficult to relate to the teaching. So they formed a little informal Bible study that would be more friendly to female issues and concerns. Well…guess what happened? All heck broke loose, of course. It’s a long, confusing story, but the basic idea is that the “elders” (a few young guys) accused these ladies of conspiring against the (male) leadership and fomenting rebellion and discord! Absolutely absurd. Super dysfunctional. And the worst part? These women were simply trying to deepen their relationship with God by applying Scripture to their own specific contexts. And they were mistreated and spiritually abused for their efforts.
Needless to say, we left the church soon after that. (A few other weird things happened, but that’s another story).
Eagle wrote:
But Nicolas Cage is making his comeback with the NEW and IMPROVED Left Behind movie! I’m sure it will be fabulous!
@ nmgirl:
If one has a personality disorder and so is only able to see things in two polar opposite extremes, then yes. (The phenomenon is known as “splitting.”)
The sight of guys such as MD doing all the dominance posturing just makes me believe more & more in evolution. It looks just like the pack structure of my dogs, &the jostling for pack leader I see in the many teenage lads I work with. Nothing meaningful, nothing different, nothing to be learned except competing for food & females as a resource.
When we were in our homeschooling and church going years, we went to a taekwondo dojang that was run by a homeschooling Christian house church pastor. (We went to take advantage of the homeschooling discount!) By the end of our time there, we were so fed up and angry with the owners because this supposedly “Christian pastor” was the biggest, egotistical a$$ that we had ever met. At the time we were there they dabbled in a one-night a week MMA class. Now I think that they are pretty much focusing solely on that.
Years ago Rush Limbaugh used to talk about taking a group of women, putting them together in Army Barracks, and how over time they would have synchronized menstrual cycles. He proposed the PMS Brigage and suuggested unleashing it into Iraq.
Well…maybe we need that Brigade to go into T4G or Acts 29 churches. đ
@ Kathi: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The flashbacks!!! The nightmares!! đŻ
@ Mr.H: Great testimony!
singleman wrote:
Unfortunately, one of the women’s classes I went to at a GCC marriage conference encouraged women to learn how to “lap dance” for their husbands. So it wouldn’t surprise me. đ
Mr.H wrote:
The problem with so many of these posts, like yours, is everybody is too scared to name names. C’mon now! You are anonymous. Name the villains so others may be warned.
Just do it!
If this is a fad – and from some of your stories it is spreading – what are some ways to try to convince people that this isn’t the best way to follow Jesus? Anyone run into this situation and had success with this?
Right at the top of your article where it says ‘And for the ladies, Fitness Chics…’ is where my red flags started going up. MMA for the guys, ‘fitness’ for the women. Gender segregation in that way is always a bad sign to me – the focus is on the men’s programs, and here we have something weaker/fluffier/lighter and less interesting to keep those silly ladies occupied while the men get their testosterone on. What about women who are interested in MMA, or men who aren’t? What about having an integrated experience for a whole church body? Where is the community here?
Reading on to the point where ‘mainstream christianity has feminized men’ just confirmed it in the worst possible way. This is just another variation on Mark Driscoll’s shtick. Rah rah manly men, gender roles must be kept rigidly distinct and enforced, and so on. Not to mention, all of the other good points above, such as what fighting and violence is doing in such a central place in church to begin with. Doesn’t mesh very well with a message of peace and brotherly love, but then, it doesn’t really sound like that’s actually the message they are preaching.
Beakerj wrote:
It’s not even a wolf pack.
It’s a feral dog pack.
Wolves have more class than that.
I am convinced that many of the Neo-Cal leaders fit this definition. đ
Mr.H wrote:
Lucy Pevensie wrote:
This is the sort of thing that’s fine: a normal active sport. I could also accept boxing, with its many rules and relatively cushy gloves, as well. I don’t think George Foreman was necessarily in grave sin for pursuing that profession while professing Christ. But the MMA stuff is more like what passed for boxing in the pre-Marquis of Queensbury days, when boxing was a vicious nearly rule free underground sport, it’s like the pancratia of the ancients, it’s about pure gratuitous violence.
Seems to be everything that Jesus was not–and everything that a knave like Mark Driscoll is.
Why can’t I get the Roman spectacle of gladiator fights and wild animal hunts in the arena out of my head?
mirele wrote:
Because they very arguably proceed from the same spirit as MMA Fight Club Churchianity.
JeffT wrote:
Yup; just you.
đ
mirele wrote:
You think you’ve got problems.
Thanks to HUG’s comment, I have a picture of Fiscal mud-wrestling in a string bikini.
I don’t feel very well.
Question – aren’t these guys being sinfully immodest? I mean, seeing shirtless, toned, sweaty guys could cause me to stumble, and I’m not even into that look much.
In other news, it’s a lovely sunny evening here in the Forth valley, it’s haggis night at the clan Bulbeck *, and the Co-Op had a perilously drinkable Australian shiraz on offer. Time to mow the lawn and make the red wine jus **, I think.
* I’ll need to come up with the gaelic spelling of “Bulbeck” – probably something like Beathuill Beag.
** Most of the wine will make it to the saucepan.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
er – OK, confession time⌠(hic)
@ Eagle:
“…In some interactions with some individuals I noticed that:
1. They canât assert themself properly.”
+++++++++++++++
Can you elaborate?
@ burntnorton:
A woman’s crime is that she is a woman. That is why she must wear a burka in order to not tempt the men. Now the men can tempt the women and some other guys as well, so maybe they should wear a burka as well. Actually let’s just have everyone wear a burka. Is that going to be the end state of complimentarism? đ
@ elastigirl:
In one situation which will remain nameless I knew one guy who I interacted with who sent mixed signals. Super, super nice, but couldn’t have a difficult conversation to save his life. He tacked in something at the end but he couldn’t sit down with me and have a difficult conversation upfront. It really surprised me especially when you think of his career and where he went to school. Communication problems would be the last thing I would think this person would have.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes, because they have no idea what a grown man is. Their idea of manhood is the white middle-class male dream of lifelong adolescence, the idea that you can stay a high-school jock that never needs to grow up.
What they don’t understand is that a man – not a boy who just thinks that he already is a man – knows how to deal with conflict without punching someone’s nose, and will only fight if he hast to, for instance in order to protect his family.
Those men who fought in WW2 mostly did not want to fight, would have preferred not to, but many accepted the fact that in order to stop Hitler it had to be done.
I think that in Fiscal’s ideal world, all of life would be a prolonged adolescence, where he could follow his impulses and instincts without regrets, and little accountability.
But, as everyone knows, the levels of testosterone poisoning that come with male adolescence do not lead to good decisions. (Too much) testosterone is not an known to be an intelligence-enhancing drug – on the contrary. Scientists have found a connection between the proportion of young males in the population of a nation and its tendency to violence: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/young-men-and-war-could-we-have-predicted-the-distribution-violent-conflicts-the-end-the
Don’t get me wrong – I am male and I enjoy it. There are good and not so good things that being male brings. I enjoy the company of other men. When I was a kid I was quite good at wrestling other kids. But would I want to be like I was at 17 forever? Good heavens, no!
@ Deb:
I’m reminded of this brilliant article after the 2012 t$g: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/05/04/combatting-muscular-christianity/ (including a brilliant guest-satire) đ The more things change…
@ Eagle:
Na, everyone knows women don’t really want sex.
And aren’t visually stimulated if we do. The popularity of the Thor movies among women notwithstanding.
Moxie wrote:
Many churches already do that very thing.
A lot of gender complementarian sites, even ones that are about another topic but hosted by gender comps, have lots of pink, flowers, and rainbows on them.
I think flowers are okay, I like rainbows just fine, but I am not an uber girlie.
When I come across Christian sites, programs, ministries or blogs for women that are dressed up in cutesy, all-pink, liberal usage of flower photos, and whose text / speeches assumes all female readers / audience members are married with a kid at home, I automatically feel turned off, excluded, and nauseated.
We had a guy on here a thread or two ago. Someone posted a link to his church’s web site. On the “women’s ministry” page for that guy’s church site was stuff like, “Women here get to know one another by cooking classes, scrap booking…” (etc).
I think the uber manly man churches do probably make some males feel unwanted.
From my childhood into adulthood, I’ve been friends and acquaintances with guys who were into intellectual, artistic, off beat, or geeky hobbies and interests (and many of these guys are hetero, not homosexual).
These are guys who enjoy playing video games, watching / collecting Star Wars, or maybe love to draw, paint, write poetry, etc. They’re not the beer can crushing, NFL- watching type of guy.
One of my co workers was an interesting blend of “kind-of” macho (Driscoll types would not have confused him for being a wuss), but he was also into computer stuff, technology, Sci Fi, but he loathed and hated sports.
He told me he found nothing more dull than having to endure social events trapped with men who were sports obsessed. He found football talk boring.
Daisy wrote:
I remember something similar about a blog posting scans of Christian book covers.
So much pink, flowers, and curlicued cursive title fonts that I felt my testicles shriveling up and falling off from just looking at them. (Like watching the G3 version of My Little Pony when you’re used to the current G4.)
Patti wrote:
John Piper’s colleague, John Ensor, wrote some weird page a few months ago comparing figure skating to gender complementarianism among Christians or spouses. (This page was published on some Piper- supported site.)
A slew of pages followed explaining the problem with Ensor’s views.
Julie Anne’s “Spiritual Sounding Board” blog did one page (from Feb 2014, “Article Uses Olympics Pairs Figure Skating to Promote Roles of Husband and Wife in Complementarianism”), and also worth a visit, because the figure skating comedy film “Blades of Glory” photo of actor Will Ferrel (male) holding actor Jon Heder (male) during one of their figure skating routines that I put in the comments was funny.
Complementarianism on Ice? A Dancerâs Response to âAn Olympic Lesson for Husbands and Wivesâ
With respect to Pastor Jason Gant, athletics can be God-honoring — in their proper place. The problem is mixing sports (and violent ones, at that) with worship.
Church is sacred. People have died for the right to worship God in the beauty of holiness and in awe and solemnity. You don’t mess with that. That goes for Mark Driscoll turning his sermon into a Redd Foxx nightclub routine.
Basically, if you need a gimmick to fill the seats in your church, you’re doing it wrong. The faithfully preached word will draw those who want it. Making church into a circus is entertaining goats, rather than feeding sheep.
Eagle wrote:
I know this doesn’t go over well on secular feminist sites – who like to pretend women always walk in solidarity with other women, and all men are The Enemy – but should such an experiment take place, the women would do each other in ever before being unleashed on Iraq.
There’s a reason why I usually prefer to work with men and not women. Not all women are bad, and not all men are great, but by and large, I’m a woman, and I’ve found men easier to work with and for. There is less game playing with males involved, usually.
And it’s not women’s fault, not really… U.S culture, including the church, socializes females into being passive aggressive, indirect, catty things.
I don’t believe it’s inherent in female nature to be passive aggressive and indirect… many women are taught to hide their anger by burying it or planting a fake smile on their face, because it’s not considered feminine to show anger or be direct.
@ LawProf: Boxing: not without mandatory headgear! Too many head/brain injuries.
I do like watching actual Chinese martial arts boxing styles being demo’d, like mantis boxing (stance and form adapted from the praying mantis). But today, they’re about strategy and elegance and grace, not just power, and sparring is *not* intended to injure. big, big difference!
@ numo: Re. Chines martial arts – that’s real martial arts. Not the “tudo vale” (free-for-all, no holds barred) Brazilian jiu jitsu spinoff that morphed into what is know as mixed ‘martial arts.’ (Quotation marks are intended to imply that it has nothing to do with the legitimate martial arts from China, Japan, Korea, etc.)
@ mirele: Because there’s really no difference, is there?
Taylor Joy wrote:
Oh boy, this is a pet peeve of mine.
Off and on the past 15, 20 years, I’ve seen similar stories. In some, I’ve read about churches who hold pole dancing classes for Christian ladies.
In the past, I’ve been on Christian singles forums where people copied remarks from Christian marriage advice books and sites, etc, and they almost always instruct Christian wives to do stuff like how to “strip tease” to turn their spouse on.
Almost always, this stuff is predicated upon the notion that only “men are visual,” which is bunk. (Women are visual as well.) There’s also the assumption that all men only want sex and all women only want emotional closeness / romance.
Another thing that bothers me about it is that the “sex” tips always cater to men. There is never any talk about how a guy can please his wife in a way she prefers.
Christians (and it’s almost always males giving this advice) only discuss “emotional” stuff in regards to women, tips to the husbands centering on that assumption, on how they can Get More, such as,
Evangelicals who give this advice don’t seem to realize that many women have their own sexual fantasies and turn-ons.
For instance, maybe there are Christian women out there who would be turned on if their husband did a Chippendale’s dance for them in the bedroom.
But I’ve never heard Christian writers or preachers give advice to men as in, “Here is what some ladies say they prefer in the sack, now go do likewise.”
Nope, it’s always, “Husbands, remember ladies like emotional bonding, knitting, and white sales at Penny’s, so maybe hold her hand next week, and then buy her some new pillow cases, to get her in the mood.”
It is if Christians (male preachers, to be specific) assume all (married) women are asexual and have to be bribed or talked into having sex.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I can’t unsee this. Oh my!
Dave A A wrote:
We need to repost that brilliant piece of satire soon. đ
Cayuga wrote:
*Perfect* description!
@ Daisy: You know, you would do well to get away from this kind of “Christianity.” There’s a big, big world out here, and in a lot of it, people don’t think like this. In fact, most don’t even know that this “xtian” subculture exists.
Not meaning to sound bossy, but I think some fresh air and different views would do you a world of good – has been true for me, and for many other refugees from what they call “the evangelical circus” over at iMonk.
Daisy wrote:
If a pastor, teaching elder, preacher person teaches the whole counsel of God, thoroughly, and we have any time left over at the end of our lives, then I suppose we can talk about it. But it seems to me that there is such precious little time to deal with what the scriptures actually say, that it’s a waste of time to imagine what isn’t written in the scriptures, I think.
I just don’t want the pastoral staff in my bedroom. A husband and wife are adults, they can decide for themselves what “undefiled marriage bed” means. I don’t care if someone is wild or conservative. It’s their business.
I was once in a pastoral counseling session with my husband when the pastor asked me an extremely personal question about my preferences in sex. I think he lost his mind and said it out loud before he even had a chance to realize he’d done it. It was sickening. And yes, he was later found to have 4 girlfriends, aside his wife. I’m sure that’s not all he had going on, either.
Kagi wrote:
I think Wartburg Watch linked to the BW (“Biblical Womanhood”) site either this thread, or a previous one?
When you visit the BW site, and look under their posts marked “health,” about 95% of their “health” posts have the word “fat” in them, such as “How not to be fat,” “How to lose ten pounds of fat.”
I understand ladies wanting to lose weight and feeling self conscious about their weight, but I wonder about a Christian site that is so heavily promoting looking skinny as being “healthy.”
I realize having an over abundance of weight can lead to health problems, but if this Christian site for women means to discuss losing weight in terms of health and avoiding getting diabetes and whatever, why not use the word “fitness” or “health” rather than “fat” in most of the headlines?
I think women in American culture are already drowning in a sea of “fat is awful, be thin, because nobody likes a fat person” messages in Non-Christian magazines and blogs, so I wonder why a Christian gender complementarian site is inadvertently contributing to the same view point.
Health can include mental health topics. A lot of people, Christian women included, have clinical depression anxiety attacks, and low self esteem. Some younger females cut themselves with blades. Some women deal with anorexia and bulimia.
The last time I visited the BW site, I don’t remember seeing any articles about those topics under their “health” tags.
@ Katie:
Just noticed the other day that the Meyer’s Briggs Personality Test claims that some personalities (men or women) have a tendency of experiencing sex more from the 5 senses perspective; whereas other personalities experience it more cognitively, with the brain being the greatest sex organ. I don’t know if this is true or not, but if it is, it would explain why a one-size-fits-all way to approach women would not work.
burntnorton wrote:
Yep, it’s a double standard. Hetero women are visual too, but many Christians are loathe to admit it, or gender complementarian theology doesn’t know what to do with it or about it.
In my junior high and high school days, many of the lockers of the gals were filled with taped-up pictures from magazines of topless, hunky male movie stars and rock band lead singers.
But in Christian Land, only males are visual, so women must dress modestly. đ
@ burntnorton:
One other thing about this topic. On one of my favorite TV shows, one of the male leads, in the past two seasons, has had more and more scenes lately where he’s shirt-less. He’s a good looking guy.
As a result, I have seen more and more screen captures of this actor shirtless on my Pinterest feed, where women have written on or below such photos, “More photos like this please!!”
His character has grown more and more scruffy-looking as the show has progressed, with lots of “five o clock shadow,” and women on-line are going nuts for that.
This is not even mentioning from day one, many women have gone bonkers in love for another male lead on the same show, who has been shown more often from the start shirtless and the like. They think he is sexy to the hilt and do not hide this in the comments online.
Women have been giggling like school girls over this other actor for a longer time than the other male lead.
The comments on Facebook fan groups for this show, for some of the male actors – oh yes, the women are indeed quite visual and most certainly do notice if men are ripped, cute, chiseled, have flat, washboard abs, etc.
@ Katie:
Yeah, sorry about that. Some things are best left unsaid, I suppose.
In other news, research has shown that fruit flies manoeuvre like fighter jets. This further explains why they are hard to swat.
I hope this is helpful.
@ Deb
Precious little would need to be updated! One common denominator between Fight Church and T$G is a deficiency in GOOD-ness. As I mentioned 2 years ago, the official T$G affirmations and denials http://t4g.org/about/affirmations-and-denials-2/ fail to affirm that God is GOOD (or synonyms). Or deny that He is evil. If He is not GOOD, the gospel they are together for cannot be GOOD NEWS.
Another common denominator is a certain retired Minnesota pastor with an irrational fear of muscular women.
@ numo:
There’s nothing to get away from. I’m a bit agnostic now. Haven’t been to church in about three years.
I do remained intrigued with the evangelical circus, so at times, I discuss it, and my former experiences with it and Christians I knew, or still know. It’s like watching a train wreck, horrifying yet I can’t look away.
I’m not a fan of post-evangelical, or liberal type thoughts on all topics. I remain very right wing and a social conservative.
I believe in biblical literalism, biblical inerrancy, YEC, and other topics that post-evangelicals, libs, and main streamers abhor or ridicule. I doubt I’d be welcomed with open arms completely in churches like that.
@ Katie:
I prety much agree with you but my view is so long as preachers are going to discuss this stuff in sermons, blogs, and books, they sorely need correcting, and need to give equal time to women’s sexuality, instead of laser focusing on what men want and like in that area.
Personally I think there is way too much sex talk in churches as it stands now – as as single celibate especially I find it annoying.
However, if “Preacher Smith” is going to yak to the ladies about how they should “serve” their spouses in the bedroom (if you know what I mean), they need to be fair and tell the men what women want (and I don’t mean more pap about “women like flowers and cuddling”).
This is interesting! Thanks for sharing it. It’s certainly a different variety of worship then I’ve seen before. Shades of warrior cults and lodges, and also it allows them to graft on martial art traditions into their worship. I wonder if they change some of the Buddhism and Confucianism inherent to some martial art styles to be more Christian. I can see it.
Lucy Pevensie wrote:
All leading up to the YRR-MMA Gospel ThrowDown
Featuring Mark “Horndog” Driscoll and his manager “Wee” Johnny Piper
vs.
“Diamond” Steve Furtick and his manager Al “No Penis, No Pulpit” Mohler
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Indeed they do HUG. In my own Menominee tribal tradition (Northern Wisconsin), the wolf is a revered and powerful spiritual totem due in large part to the way they live as a pack. They don’t breed themselves out of existence and they don’t exhaust the food supply. Scientists have now confirmed that they have social structures and behaviors once thought to be found only amongst the hominids.
burntnorton wrote:
The MMA sweaty guy look is not for me. However, if it means that it’s a Hugh Jackman or Daniel Craig toned, sweaty guy look, than I’m all for that! I just consider it admiring God’s creation.
Also, I’ve noticed a couple of “girly knitting” comments. Watch it y’all! I might just have to whip up a pair of knitted boxing gloves. If I use a nice alpaca yarn, at least the punch will feel soft!
Mr.H wrote:
True fellowship, where people actually learn from the Word of God, seeking Christ on their own without a leader looking over their shoulder and fulfill the mandate the Lord gave to be a functioning, co-equal part of the body–and male or female, matters not–is extremely dangerous to a cult. Almost a decade ago I had a similar experience except, amazingly, in the other direction; it was a church run by husband-wife pastoral team, and due to serious sin on husband’s part, he stepped back and ceased taking a co-equal leadership role. Wife took over and ended up being one of the most destructive leaders I’ve ever seen–she could give Driscoll a run for his money in manipulation, domination (or dirty cage-match fighting). The men started a fellowship Sunday night and after some time, Pastor Alyce announced that the meetings would no longer be “men’s meetings” but “believer’s meetings”, open to everyone. This was her unilateral decision. The believer’s meetings lasted about two weeks, then were discontinued by Alyce. And that was the end for good of the men’s bible study.
Daisy wrote:
I hear ya. As a married women I’ve had to be “celibate” more often than I care to recall. My husband had hormonal issues which were not addressed for many years. During the confusing years of not knowing what was going on, I was angry and felt unloved. I also knew practically every person in the church who was also suffering like me.
It’s weird, but you just know. Some say it’s because you secret pheromones, but it may just be the hypersensitivity one has to the opposite sex and that look of desperation on one’s face! Regardless, it made any mention of sex in church that went beyond what scripture said, uncomfortable. Our pastor felt in necessary to describe what he and his wife did sometimes with chocolate. I just didn’t need to know.
Daisy wrote:
Agreed.
@ Anonymous:
Good grief! No one needs to know. What is with pastors who feel the need to to tell everyone about their sexual life? It seems more like a holified brag session to me. Any pastor going to these places with their teaching is no pastor at all! (Rant over)
@ Katie:
@ Daisy:
Actually, the real problem is that it is male preachers doing all the talking.
Instead of the male preacher telling men what women want, perhaps his wife or some other woman should get up and tell men what women want.
After all, they didn’t mind having a man tell women what to do.
On second thought, yep, there is too much talk about sex in church. They all just need to cut it out.
(But if they insist on talking about it, they better be willing to hear about it, as well, from the womenfolk.)
Anonymous wrote:
My husband calls this TMI (too much information)! Absolutely ridiculous!
Deb wrote:
I think it’s about the thrill, the titillation. Like Driscoll airing out his penchant for sodomy and other forms of unusual sexual practices, with the obvious implication that Grace was his partner in this. I think there might be sadism involved as well, the pleasure of exposing the humiliated partner. There are likely very few women–or men–who want to have their very private activity and desires exposed by anyone, including a spouse.
When you can work the faith angle into it as well, giving yourself the appearance of “righteous frankness” in the service of helping the marriages of believers, that’s the trifecta: titillation, sadism, godliness.
Mara wrote:
Totally agree!
Daisy wrote:
At my old A29 church, many of us would joke that 90% of the sermons ranted and raved about how Christians need to quit porn or quite wasting time on video games. In other words: the sermons were pretty clearly written by a very specific type of young male to others of his kind. Anyone else (especially women, but also many of the men) was essentially marginalized.
I remember in one small group meeting, during a discussion of one of these “porn and video games” sermons, a brave young lady chimed in, “I don’t watch porn, and I don’t play video games, so what the heck am I supposed to get out of this?”
Daisy wrote:
I think that there is certainly a place for sex education for Christians, but it isn’t in the pulpit given by a minister who doesn’t know as much as thinks he does. I think a good book written by people who understand Masters and Johnson would be helpful. The Driscoll book is really unfortunate because there is a need for frank sex education, but their content is wrong in so many ways.
And I don’t object to specialized talks for church groups. The women of a local church invited a friend of mine who taught human sexuality to give a talk to their group (detailed and with charts) and it was very well received. (When she said, “Here’s what we have to tell the men…” she got a chorus of Amens and Tell it sisters).
This is one if my pet peeves, but here we are in a highly sexualized culture and yet people still lack basic information about sex. I have taught young people in college as well as in Sunday School, and it is amazing what many young people do not know about sex (having had a bunch of them come to me with questions). I am especially annoyed at fathers who shorten ‘the talk’ by saying “But you young guys these days, you could probably tell me a thing or two”, wink wink, nudge nudge. No they couldn’t; educate your sons.
I am reading a fascinating book right now called “When God Talks Back” by Tonya Luhrmann. It is a psychological journey through her several years in a Vinyard church. Anyway, there is a lot of weirdness going on in the book, but there is a central theme that is relevant. It is what Franz Pieper described as “ichtheologie” (no, that is not a prehistoric fish). In other words, religion based on the “I” or ego. As a seminal concept, it does much to explain Fight Church, as well as Christian pole dancing (insert đ here), and even the modus operandi of fundamentalism. Interesting stuff. Anyway, Tonya will be speaking at the University of Louisville next Monday; I hope to go hear what she has to say.
@ Taylor Joy:
I tend to agree with you.
@ Daisy:
I feel sorry for my husband because since the church has been getting involved in telling me what I have to do do in the bedroom for the gospel I have been straying be disinterested. It’s all bringing me back to when I thought God was a sexist old fart in the sky.
singleman wrote:
Welp…I present to you the largest Easter egg helicopter drop in the history of ever!
https://twitter.com/Prestonwood/status/453940260901101568
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
So you are local to Louisville?? I hope to visit there next summer, and set up special “nut oriented” merchandise kiosk….outside of CJ’s shrine….(see the other thread going on about this…) In person might be extreme, but I would love to see a blog set up of merchandise to mock this ridiculous obsession with male dominated EVERYTHING….
Correction: starting to be, not straying. ( for a comment that might still be in moderation )
Amy Smith wrote:
As God is my witness, I thought that Easter eggs could fly!!!!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPeCGURWzjwE&ei=yw9HU_mTPIec0gGMrYHwCw&usg=AFQjCNFSuRwE-Tj1nwyCe24JFe1h2vBd9g&sig2=VpFnmM9BcOPN1M2qCiGspg&bvm=bv.64507335,d.dmQ
WKRP “Turkey’s Away” – YouTube
Nov 24, 2011 – Uploaded by whoohaaa1000
“AS GOD IS MY WITNESS, I thought Turkeys could fly”.
LawProf wrote:
That’s a good way to put it.
@ Marie2:
Greatness.
TedS. wrote:
I’m not sure what the “problem” is. I’m pragmatic, and I just don’t see what added benefit there would be to naming names.
As for naming the villain to warn others – I have done this numerous times. The ultimate villain is the Mars Hill & Acts 29 leadership. They are the ones who have created and are perpetuating a system that encourages dysfunction and abuse.
I have put much thought into why and how I should share my story. I’ll give you a peek behind the curtain:
Fear is not a significant factor in my decision to leave my former church and its leaders unnamed. I approached and rebuked the elders directly several times during this fiasco, in what were very awkward and heated confrontations. No, I don’t see those guys as the real enemy. They were unqualified dupes set up for failure by those above them (MH/A29). What good would it do to go on a crusade against five or six guys in one small A29 church, when the Big Boys in Seattle and Dallas continue to churn out more? I’d rather focus my efforts on the brains of the operation. So – by sharing details but remaining anonymous, I am able to place the focus on the dangerous, harmful, dysfunctional system as a whole, rather than allowing the Big Wigs to get away with making their dupes (my old elders) take the fall for them. The real problem isn’t my old elders – the problem is a system and an ideology that put them in charge and trained a certain a way.
On a related note: I recently found out that our old A29 church is hemorrhaging members like crazy. My wife and I find this to be encouraging and validating – Jesus really does build and protect his church.
Cayuga wrote:
That is just really well said.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
good thought! Are the same people that think yoga in exercise class is evil. How do they justify the spiritual aspects of these disciplines.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I heard Terri Gross (I think) interview her on NPR a while back, as promo for that book. Interesting to hear a non-Christian’s perspectives on the charismatic evangelical movement.
(I’m assuming this is the same book – my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe her specific focus was on the psychology of prayer?)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Don’t make me laugh! I’m still recovering from something that turned into pneumonia in the guy who gave it to me and I’m gasping for breath–with laughter.
Kathi wrote:
I’m the last person you can accuse of being a girly-girl but I do love my knitting.
OK, I’m going to go out on a limb and say first of all that I see no problem per se with men wanting to do mixed martial arts. Pastor Gant’s comment is a bit off the beam, in my opinion. You might as well not do anything – sport, music, art, science – if it’s “worldly”. Personally I don’t think boxing, football, etc. are “worldly”, but I agree that they would be a distraction in a church service.(!)
Nick Bulbeck raises a good point – why is MMA being promoted? I think sport, including martial sports, does have benefits – teamship, self-discipline, sportsmanship, etc, but the urge to show oneself better by being able to whale the stuffing out of an opponent is not necessarily a fruit of the Spirit, in my opinion. Nor do I think that MMA will by itself solve what is regarded as the problem of “feminized men” in mainstream Christianity. If there is a section in the Church that thinks this sort of thing will reduce temptation to homosexuality (let’s be frank here), then I would have to question their judgement – tough guys can be just as prone to this as guys who prefer painting or sculpture.
By all means let’s have Christians in all sports if they have a sporting gift and want to use it to glorify God, but the glorification is surely in the way they handle themselves, not in the winning per se, as if God needs sporting victories to glorify Him. A sportsman should want to win because that’s the aim of his sport, not because he thinks a victory will somehow be more glorifying to God than a defeat.
There are practical pros and cons too. Self defence skills can be useful, and I would argue (contrary to a lot of popular evangelical opinion) that it’s actually more godly (and manly!) to incapacitate someone’s criminal intent with unarmed combat than by firing a gun into them. And there’s the fitness regime. On the other hand as someone else has mentioned, there’s also the risk of injury, which is ever present in any sport but obviously more so in contact and combat sports.
I think the biggest danger with the whole thing though, as others have commented, is a perceived gimmickiness.
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
GirlFight!
Marsha wrote:
Yes, and good books are good, just rare. Even had a human sexuality course in college that was excellent that answered lost of questions we didn’t even know to ask. I just don’t want to have a theology major trying to teach me about sex from the pulpit. He should be embarrassed, I think.
@ Marie2: Local enough to taste the misogyny…
@ Mr.H:
Yep, that sounds about right.
@ Daisy:
There’s a LOT more to Christianity than the three categories you mention! I’m guessing that you might not have had much interaction with xtians from outside Evangelical Land, but that *is* just a guess…
@ Kolya:
MMA is *really* brutal. I can’t watch it.
Am wondering if you are familiar with it? Because it’s about as far from legit martial arts as it gets – as someone else said above, very similar to bate-knuckle fighting prior to Marquess of Queensbury rules, also painfully similar to the pankration fights (brutal, to the death) in the ancient Olympics.
@ numo: see also “vale tudo,” the no holds barred, almost zero rules bare-knuckle style that originated in Brazil and has an underground presence here. (It’s literally illegal in the Us.)
@ numo: clarification: I’m referring to Chinese, Japanese and Korean martial arts. MMA is trading on that, I think – in that “martial arts” makes MMA sound legit and not like vale tudo.
imo, they’re trying to legitimize an extremely brutal fighting style by claiming it’s a sport.
My thoughts are: of course we would have a church dedicated to men who like X. I trace a lot of this back to the splitting of youth and later young adults from the “married with children” aged crowd and seniors now have their own special ministry.
I was saved in a para-church org. so I understand why church never really worked for youth and young adults that well. But, it grew a generation used to being catered to. I have tossed over and over why so many people “fall” for the Driscoll stick. But, I think in the early days it cames down to him delivering, better than the competition, a place that catered to the young adult crowd. In Seattle, that young adult crowd often got jobs in the booming tech industry, so it fed the Mars Hill machine. As that machine grew, it offered, for free, resources that appealed to the young adult mindset.
So, now, we can make a church about MMA, and pole dancing and who knows what else and people who feel that interests them more than the church down the street will gather. That all seems fine. But, it isn’t fine, it is silly. God never told us to go to the ends of the earth and make cliques. And he also never told us to go and make church members. He said to make disciples. That is precisely not what those types of churches do. They don’t want members to become independent and go and start their own ministries, or, *gasp* think for themselves.
This is why church employees are burdened with silly contracts stipulating “this is our turf” kind of language. Because fewer and fewer North Americans are being raised in a multigenerational church that doesn’t feel the need to cater to a target audience. That, in turn, creates a generation or two of Christians looking for the right “Fit” or “Experience” to do church. If one church can “catch the wave” and reach a niche group of Christians, that church becomes “Mega” and, in the eyes of this generation “blessed or anointed”. This fracturing of the actual body has been going on for a while – 1960s on, so by “this generation” I actually mean almost 3 generations. It is getting worse each decade in my view.
I went to a church with a great Young Adults group, and never found an equivalent, so I get the searching and blind deference that goes on. But, I was very fortunate that our Young Adult leaders DISCIPLED us. They didn’t just entertain us, or insinuate that they were the “real deal” in Christian experience. I confess I may have felt they were the only place with God, but they never insinuated that, in fact, when they graduated form seminary and went off to their various church pastorate jobs, they told us to stick with the new leader – even though we suspected he didn’t have an ounce of the Holy Spirit in him, because pastoring was a tough job, etc. Hardly the egomaniacs leading the Young Adults today.
Sigh, so yeah, MMA churches, makes sense, just like the water beginning to bubble while the frog sits in the pot.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“I remember something similar about a blog posting scans of Christian book covers.
So much pink, flowers, and curlicued cursive title fonts that I felt my testicles shriveling up and falling off from just looking at them.”
++++++++++++++
We will have much better methods at the “Their Nuts In Your Handbag” conference tour (based on the upcoming book).
(see latter portion of comment stream on previous post for context)
@ Kolya: Finally, I don't think the problem is related to sports in any way at all. Nor do I think true martial arts ability is inherently "manly." One of the best teachers in the US, Chinese immigrant Bow Sim Mark, is a woman and slightly under 5' tall. (one of her sons is martial arts film star Donnie Yen.) There are videos on YouTube – see what you make of them. One of my favorites is her mantis boxing demo.
Y@ numo: favorites, not faces.
@ Val:
Yeah. I had a conversation with another little old lady at my church re: Elevation in Charlotte. She said that her young adult children (and their little kids go there) and kept emphasizing how Elevation has so many young people. Target audience.
And then there are those of us who, when faced with being herded into the appropriate cattle lots take the approach “you and how many else, buster?” think that will happen.
Val wrote:
Val, this is a really important and well-made point. (With apologies if my square bracket above has misrepresented you – I don’t think it has, but that’s your call.)
Katie wrote:
Meyers-Briggs is a much-enjoyed hobby in my family. I’m glad you brought this up!! My husband’s personality (NT) considers sex a “skill set” to be learned. And, um, he LOVES learning new skills. ;). I’m so glad we didn’t stay in Patriarchy very long. đ
Mr.H wrote:Fear is not a significant factor in my decision to leave my former church and its leaders unnamed. I approached and rebuked the elders directly several times during this fiasco, in what were very awkward and heated confrontations. No, I donât see those guys as the real enemy. They were unqualified dupes set up for failure by those above them (MH/A29).
WELL PUT! The “unqualified dupes”. Oh yes, know them well: the guys who were saved at 20 and now 24, newly-married, childless, and yet suddenly, unexpectedly, set up as elders! At the hippest new church in town! Somebody saw their potential! At such a young age! Leader of the True Church of God!
Alas, it’s under some 42 year old sociopath with a soul patch.
The young 24 year old guys who had major daddy issues who are just looking for someone who will pretend to be righteous and tell them what to do. They’re so downright green and they just don’t-know-what-they-don’t-know that they’ll do anything Pastor Sociopath tells them, even the most downright cruel things that would never occur to them–so long as it pleases the leader.
You’re right, they’re not the real enemy. Most are on their way to being seriously disillusioned 34 year olds in a Major Crisis of Faith, most will come around and be older, wiser, probably profoundly ashamed. It’s the sociopath and the system he’s set up–and the spiritual forces behind it–mainly those–that are our enemies.
@ Mr.H:
Also, I think it’s important to point out the SOURCE of false teaching (doctrine, motives, power, deception, disordered thinking, double standards, etc) more so than just “identify the perpetrator.” As soon as one false teacher is discredited, two more will rise to take his/her place, unless our focus is on teaching the body how to discern. (Sorry, saw Captain America II last night–the Hydra is stuck in my brain. :). Whoops–does that make me a girl who doesn’t like knitting and scrapbooking???).
elastigirl wrote:
And here’s an image for ya:
Nuts in a purse:
http://www.trinketsinbloom.com/diy-hex-nut-clutch/
Mr H, wait a second, you said that was your goal too!!! Sorry, I was answering the guy you quotes, not you. No coffee yet, dangit, & the two year old isn’t feeling well. đ
In other news, here’s a nice wee story:
I’ll let him off that one⌠His top tip to help you complete the event:
Actually, he runs to raise money for a local hospice.
Ugh, the whole ‘men are being feminised by society’ argument is so overplayed it’s becoming tedious. Seriously, these guys need to get a new line.
And as a single woman, I’ve gotta say that I consider any man who needs to prove his masculinity through physically fighting someone else to be beneath me.
@ numo: Corrected it. đ
@ Pam: Here's what we need to start telling those 'dudes':
It's WAY past time to reclaim some normalcy in Christendom.
Taylor Joy wrote:
Utah Mormon wives are supposed to be into knitting and scrapbooking and being mommies. Guess who wrote that best-selling sex fantasy about Sparkly Vampire High School? (“EDWAAAAARD…”) Must have been something under the scrapbooking surface…
LawProf wrote:
And THEY are now IMPORTANT! Pastor Sociopath’s Speshul Inner Ring! At 25! Complete with brown shirts, black tunics, and armbands! We’re the Speshul Chosen! At 25! See how the sheeple in the pews RESPECT and obey!
Muff Potter wrote:
I’ve said that genetically humans are pongoid apes, biochemically we’re closest to pigs, and psychologically/socially we’re closest to wolves. (Wolves are more active predators and dogs are more scavengers; humans began as scavengers who became predators, so we show characteristics of both. And the MenaGawd under discussion are more on the Scavenger end of the pool.)
One of my writing partners (the son of a steelworker who’s now doing MLP:FIM fanfic) has the same feel about wolves, though without the spiritual angle. As in “Magnificent Creatures”. Before he bronied, he tended to use wolf characters in his sword-and-sorcery, trying to give a lupine “feel” in their thinking and culture. As humans and wolves are similar psychologically and culturally, it makes an easy “alien as ultimate foreigner” — different from human and exotic, but not too different.
(Plug) Last year I assisted him on an MLP fan novel centering around a wolf who gets stranded in Ponyville and has to hide out in a town of crazy ponies during the middle of a predator scare. (What could possibly go wrong?) He went into some detail on the background of wolf culture and mythology and how it contrasts with that of the ponies: http://www.fimfiction.net/story/116203/wolf-in-ponys-clothing (End Plug)
LawProf wrote:
This is My Sexual Fantasies given Christian-acceptable form.
And how else can Respectable Church Ladies get their JUICY porn fix and still remain Godly, Gospelly, and (most important) Respectable?
Amy Smith wrote:
“AS GOD IS MY WITNESS, I THOUGHT TURKEYS COULD FLY!”
— WKRP Cincinatti
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
haven’t tried swatting fighter jets. Is it very difficult?
Pam wrote:
I think the real issue here is psychological. This is one reason why traditional martial arts are seen as morality training. It allows young men to realize that they are powerful and dangerous, while simultaneously teaching them restraint and compassion. It is truly the way of the gentle-man. I think a lot of this is missing in the lives of young boys these days. Men who fight are often boys who never got to “test their might”. I didn’t fight much growing up, but I did run around like a banshee in ways that would truly make Huck Finn cringe. I suspect this resulted in a healthy understanding of my limits, a healthy self-confidence, and a more stabilized adulthood. Just a few rambling observances.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Do we agree that MMA and traditional martial arts are two entirely different concepts?
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Dashed difficult, I’d say.
burntnorton wrote:
Why am I thinking of the bare-chested, pec-flashing Autocrat of all Russia?
(Astride his Steppe Pony — might as well have been riding Pinkie Pie…)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Was talking with my teenage daughter the other day about this phenomenon, and she said they reminded her most of Rolf from the Sound of Music. Great minds think alike!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSsmDD8vVU
gus wrote:
Reminds me of some quotes from an interview with Mormon SF writer Orson Scott Card many-many years ago:
âIâm talking about books by 35-year-old novelists writing about 35-year-old characters who nevertheless approach the world as an adolescent: that life is all about getting free of people that dominate you. Thatâs a 15-year-oldâs viewpoint. There should be fiction that tells you about growing up, about being an adult whoâs responsible, who canât just walk away when he gets tired, who doesnât just go and get a divorce, who doesnât have a mid-life crisis, but instead sticks it out and deals with what goes wrong. There arenât many adult heroes in fiction.â â Orson Scott Card
âTime after time we have the hero who rides in like the Lone Ranger â the ultimate adolescent fantasy â with the mask. Itâs a grand romantic motif, but growing up is about taking the mask off.â â Orson Scott Card
âWe have our picture of the world being created by rebellious teenagers who refuse to grow up and are getting paid not to.â â Orson Scott Card
“That life is all about getting free of people who dominate you.” — that’s the Beavis & Butthead view of adulthood. And Bee Jay and the Big Dogs take that one further, into the Zero-Sum Game of getting free of people who dominate you by dominating everyone else. Hold the Whip or Feel the Whip, nothing in-between.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, one of the funniest TV episodes EVER!!!!!
@ Marie2:
GREAT product! A very classy representation.
Daisy wrote:
Which contributes to my deep distrust of women. And (with the passive-aggressive crap I endured while growing up) provides an entry point in my psyche for Male Supremacist thinking — the only way to keep from being deceived by those passive-aggressive, indirect, catty things is to make sure MY boot is always on their necks. (And I can’t be the only one who has this dynamic at work.)
Daisy wrote:
Maybe that’s true of their own Christianese Side Hug marriages of continence to Respectable Pastor’s Wives and they’re just projecting it onto everybody. “I have X Problem, so everyone else must have the same problem.”
Bridget wrote:
“SEE WHAT I’M GETTING? SEE WHAT YOU’RE MISSING? I’M GETTING SOME! AND YOU’RE NOT!”
LawProf wrote:
With me, the type example is a (fictional) SS death camp commandant from the early chapters of Leon Uris’s novel Armageddon:
“Brewery-truck driver rescued from total obscurity by his beloved Nazis.”
In other news, it’s a big w/e of sport here in Blighty.
On Sunday morning, it’s the London Marathon, with track star Mo Farah making his marathon debut. The fact that he has stated his intention to break the British record (a time that is highly unlikely to win a paced, major city marathon these days) suggest that Farah doesn’t expect to win. Especially given that the legendary Haile Gebrselassie is “only” the pacemaker this year. However, the race looks intriguing.
And on Sunday afternoon, Liverpool host Manchester City in what could prove to be a title decider. It’s a must-win for Liverpool. If City win, they are practically home and dry in the title race; if it’s a draw, they remain strong favourites with two games in hand over both Chelsea and Liverpool.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: and by absolutely no means is this pereption applicable to all, or even most, women.
Which i’m thinking you must already know, but just sayin’…
@ numo: didnt state this clearly enough – it might be true of some women, but by no means all, or even most of us.
If i were to say that men are all a bunch of emotionally immature jerks (as in the quotes by Orson Scott Card that HUG posted), that would be equally untrue, thoufgh certainly accurate re. *some* men.
Taylor Joy wrote:
No worries…I too am significantly hobbled without my coffee. I’ve also made my share of technical mistakes in terms of replying, quoting, etc. (I never learned HTML in high school computer class).
I understood what had happened when I read your post, but I appreciate your clarifying it. đ
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yup!!!!
This clip sums it right up….Required watching for ALL pastors…..the secretive methods of the “guy in charge” did not work…He should have consulted his colleagues, but NO…..Why would he talk to those dummies, anyway????
WKRP “Turkey’s Away”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeCGURWzjwE
LawProf wrote:
Sadly, I think we would have been grateful for a 42 year old lead pastor (but no sociopaths, please). Our lead pastor at that A29 church was, I believe, 28 or 29 when he planted the church, and the “elders” were all roughly 24-26 years old.
Right. It’s sad. One of the elders has already left – sadly (and ironically) believe that he was the most qualified of any of them to actually be a Christian leader. Another elder left after dropping out of their “elder training program.” I think we’re seeing a similar phenomenon at Mars Hill: lots of guys who were duped while young and then later matured a bit and realized how crazy the whole thing is.
elastigirl wrote:
Ok….Soooo. Sabrae, inquiring minds want to know….Can you please elaborate on the following?
“…and I do hereby promise to take them three times around the dance floor without so much as breaking a sweat before leaving the conversation with their misogynistic nuts in my handbag.”
Just did not want to plagiarize the idea in any way. Sabrae created a wonderful word picture, and Google was my friend…
I think it would be great fun to give the designer of that purse some credit, and show up at some point, especially outside of any courtroom, with either knock-offs of the purse, pictures of the purse on placards, or some combination thereof.
Props to you, Sabrae, for your creativity, and if you are going underground now to fulfill your plan, you have my full support!!!!
Mr.H wrote:
Ah, the old trick: the sociopath’s “elder training program”. I attended a cult where the 38-ish sociopath set up to determine elders a “Leadership in Development” Team–the “LID Team”. This was merely a means of testing out people’s loyalty to the leader, first question asked, and we all sat there as pastor went around in a circle, asking each person individually: “Are you on board with me?”(Nothing about Jesus, mind you). In short time, everyone who wasn’t willing to submit to whatever cultic ideas he had about control were deemed untrainable and in rebellion. One would think that true elders, just based on nothing more than the etymology of the word, ought to those who are RECOGNIZED (not trained) for their age, experience and stability. This is bolstered by the qualifications listed for an elder–how in the world does one “train” to meet those? They are about longstanding merit, earned over decades, proven up by how you’ve affected those closest to you, i.e., your family.
Anyone wants to set up an elder training team is either benighted and ignorant of the Bible or downright vicious and ill-intentioned.
Bridget wrote:
Absolutely and definitively.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist: Much appreciated, Dr. Fundystan, since you practice the real thing and know the difference!
@ LawProf:
Right on, brother. Elders in the OT and NT were selected because they were older, and thus more mature, experienced, etc. (both in life and also in religious matters). And you make an important observation – they were acknowledged, not appointed. Like a super-smart kid in math class…nobody needs to take a vote to officially appoint him as the best candidate to tutor his peers. He just *is* the best candidate. Likewise, elder candidates would have simply stood out in their community context for their maturity, wisdom, experience, and would have simply been acknowledged as a leader.
I don’t know the nitty-gritty details of what the “elder training” consisted of at our old A29 church. I’m guessing that it was probably similar to what you describe going through. I do remember one of the elders telling me that, as part of the program, they (the elders) all went on a “retreat” which, from his description, sounded like it consisted mostly of going around in a circle and discussing in detail every sin each person had committed through their entire life. (!?)
I also know that “loyalty” to the lead pastor was highly emphasized…to the point that the “elders” ended up functioning more like young KGB operatives (sniffing out dissent and reporting back to the General Secretary). I remember remarking to one of the “elders” that I didn’t understand part of a particular sermon and I felt like the pastor could have communicated his points better. The elder rebuked me somewhat harshly and insisted, “You can’t say something like that! You have to support and encourage him!”
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I love how putting this at the beginning of a sentence covers many ills ! Just like starting with, “I mean no disrespect, but…” Anyhow, research has shown that rhyming slang can also mask a double entendre (eg “Fiscal”). Did I get that right?
Oh My Goodness. That video. Those poor young boys who are clearly being made to fight – they look absolutely petrified.
And did anyone notice that the pastor is preaching wearing a T-shirt with the word ‘Destruction’ emblazoned on it? How on earth can that be a suitable message?
It’s twisted, warped and sick, if you ask me. ‘Love your neighbour and at the same time beat him in the face as hard as you can’. ‘Jesus never gave up’. Right.
Daisy wrote:
And itâs not womenâs fault, not really⌠U.S culture, including the church, socializes females into being passive aggressive, indirect, catty things.
sure glad I wasn’t raised this way. I was raised to be one of the boys and think and act like boys. Of course that created problems in the corporate world because an assertive confident woman is just a b____.
@ May:
True enough May. It’s evil. The prince of this world knows full well that if they can be dehumanized at a young age, they will forever be in his thrall.
@ Haitch:
Basically right – though “Fiscal” in this context isn’t really a double entendre (which usually carries at least a light-hearted sexual connotation), but the first word I could think of that rhymed with “driskle”.
I mostly agree that churches that pursue MMA or other fighting styles in an attempt to “re-masculinize” Christianity are barking up the wrong tree.
But I can’t say I fully agree with the quoted pastor who disagrees with it when he said “Boxing, football, or any other worldly pursuit doesn’t honor God, but rather distracts us from a spiritual fellowship with Him.” There are an awful lot of “worldly pursuits” like reading novels, putting gas in your car, sweeping the floor, attending your kid’s Little League game, riding horses, and many more, that don’t expressly involve meditating on God with your Bible open, but that doesn’t mean they’re a waste of time, and I get so annoyed when someone hints at even a whiff of such thinking đ
I know you guys don’t think that way, Deebs. Just pointing out a minor nit-pick with the quoted fella.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thanks Nick, that is a better way of putting it.
To be fair, my church is multigenerational, but it is all white middle class (mostly Mennonite, since it is, after all, a Mennonite church). We live in very culturally diverse city – Metro Vancouver (the most Asian city outside of Asia at 43%), but everyone just sort of groups into their cultural enclaves. If you want to see the world, but only have a weekend, just come to Vancouver and tour the neighbourhoods, we have Chinese Richmond, Greek Orthodox and Jewish Kitsalano, British Dunbar, Punjabi North Delta, Middle Eastern/Afghan/Refugee population Surrey, Iranian West Vancouver, Filipino East Vancouver, Italian North Burnaby, African New Westminster, Bible belt-Dutch- Mennonite Fraser Valley, and so on. Perish the thought of any of these groups trying to have a multicultural church together. Instead, a “Caucasian” denomination will go plant a “Fillipino” church or a Chinese denomination will plant a Vietnamese church. You can’t just check a church’s denominational sign and assume it would be OK for you, you also have to check it’s ethnic target – for example, Korea Alliance, Vietnamese Baptist, Chinese Reformed are churches I drive by weekly. Any guess how a non-target audience member will fit in?
Muff Potter wrote:
“Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— A.Hitler, cult leader
Val wrote:
A very good question. The best answer I can come up with is: supernaturally.
The Forth Valley isn’t remotely that ethnically diverse; and I speak having emigrated here from England! But we still have our congregational divisions, some of them surprisingly hostile. I suppose we often overlook just what a miracle “the miracle of salvation” is. That is, we persuade someone to pray a prayer and join a church, and celebrate the miracle of salvation they have experienced. And yet we don’t expect them to be able to love believers different from themselves.
@ nmgirl: i wasnt raised that way, either.
@ Val: in most cases, though, youre dealing with recent immigrant populations where many adults dont speak English. It’s true here in the US as well.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I can’t claim to know all that much about the socialisation of boys and how much/little boundary pushing they’re allowed affects how likely they are to have any need to physically prove themselves as adults. But I think the distinction you brought up with actual martial arts training was interesting, and how learning your body’s abilities can help in learning to control and limit them. It seems that, done well, martial arts training can prove to oneself their abilities, removing the need to prove them against another. And (again, when well trained and also depending on the individual) the aim seems to be completely opposite to MMA. Where MMA seems to be about using as much violence as possible, actual martial arts seems to be learning to physically stop or overpower someone but without necessarily causing real injury.
@ Pam:
Training and study emphasizes self-control and respect for others (and onself). Overpoweering or hurting people is contrary to the ethics involved.
nmgirl wrote:
I have seen that a great deal in my lifetime…Even just as bad, male pastors who cannot see the cattiness even when it’s right in front of them. I guess that would be a challenging course lineup to offer in seminary – female cattiness 101, and how to detect female cattiness 102.
@ Marie2:
I am thinking that high school directly to college and directly to seminary and directly to the pastorate may be no way to grow a man or form a good pastor.
Perhaps some of these folks who cannot see the obvious even when it is right in front of them have never had the opportunity or necessity in “the real world” to develop that skill.
If we forget the scriptural descriptors of “of good report” in the community and having good success with their own family/children as what it takes to be an elder (not getting into the difficult applications here) we have created a system of ill-prepared and not-yet-proven folks in the pastorate.
@ Nancy:
The markers for an elder have much more to do with character and relational issues in community than they have to do with schooling. I know men who have been very, very well trained, academically speaking, but they should not be caring for people in any way, shape, or form. They have trained themselves well to look good on the surface and in the right crowds, but they are not that way at all in the small world where they lead and believe they have God’s authority to act on his behalf. Academic accolades in no way make up for lack of loving your neighbor as yourself.
sad observer wrote:
It’s probably not a minor nitpick.
That guy’s attitude is quite possibly a sign of Pharisaism. Where I live, there’s an A29 church with the Calvinistic MMA, sin-sniffing, back-stabbing, pole dancing, chauvinistic so-called Christianity, but down the road a ways an Armenian pastor tells his tiny cultic fellowship that all sports are idolatry, basically any pursuit in which you don’t have the KJV (ONLY!) bible open is sin, and that women who show an ankle are jezebels–you can find that sort of sin-sniffing so-called Christianity as well. Flip sides of same coin.
Bridget wrote:
I work at a university. I could show you several hundred exceptionally well-trained colleagues, some of whom wear the colorful doctoral gowns of elite institutions on commencement, many of whom I wouldn’t expect to slap both their butt cheeks competently (sometimes I fall within this same category, and I didn’t even attend an august or elite institution for my degrees).
Guys, thanks for the heads-up re MMA. I hadn’t thought it was as brutal or non-holds barred as it is being described. I’ll check that out. But yes, I think there’s something wrong with the “chickenhawk” thing when fans are screaming for blood – I wouldn’t go to an equestrian event hoping to see a horse fall down, or to a soccer match hoping to see a mass fight on pitch, some gougings and sending-offs by the ref! (Hope that doesn’t sound too self-righteous…. ;-))
Nick Bulbeck will undoubtedly remember the good ol’ days on Sat afternoon “World of Sport” when half a dozen old ladies sat around a ring were yelling for blood in the wrestling – but I’m not sure the actual event was supposed to be taken seriously!
Kolya wrote:
He does indeed. Happy days!
Kolya wrote:
Not self-righteous at all Kolya. You have a divine template within telling you it’s wrong to do those kinds of things. Conscience, Jiminy Cricket on your shoulder, call it what you will. It’s there.
Kolya wrote:
In December 2010 I took my daughter to see the FIG World Cup gymnastics event at the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow. By a lucky (for us) coincidence, we turned out to be sitting next to the parents of Hannah Whelan, at the time the reigning British all-around champion, who was competing at the event. I discovered who our neighbours were when wee Hannah nailed her beam dismount, and the lassie sat next to me turned to me and said, That’s my daughter!. Unsurprisingly, they were fascinatingly informative company (not to mention extremely gracious and polite, despite the fact that I pestered them with questions throughout the event!).
Moments later, one of the other lassies made a mess of her dismount, the practical upshot of which was that Hannah was guaranteed a medal. I said to Mrs Whelan, You must have mixed feelings when the competition falls. She answered: You never want them to fall off. Not when you know how hard they work.
She wrote a column for the Guardian newspaper during the London Olympics. They should ask her to teach at a few seminaries as well, IMHO.
@ Kolya: good on you, Kolya, and like Muff said, you’re going by the true North of your internal compass needle (aka conscience),
Sadly, there *are* people who go to events hoping for disasters. Seems to be especially true of many who go too stock car races here, hoping for crashes. Lord knows, *most* spectators don’t want that, but there are always a minority who do.
The though of accidents at equestrian events makes my stomach knot up, because equine anatomy is a delicate thing and accidents are BAD things, for both horses and riders.
@ May:
That is, imo, abusive (making those kids fight). No its, ands or buts.
It is one’s personal relationship with God that matters – not the denominations, which are man-made. Christianity is humbleness, virtuous, compassionate It’s a ‘heart (love) thing’ not a denomination.. When one centers his worship around God, he can worship in all denominations. There are true Christians in all churches and there are those who are not true Christians in all churches. It is not our call to make. Keep in mind, it isn’t the denomination – it’s the righteous living and that comes with loving God and your fellow man and not because of the rules and regulations. However, one will follow God’s commandments if he love Him.
numo wrote:
I’m with you 110% on this one numes. Governments and laws are instituted among men so that the worst in our nature as humans can be curbed. When men will not restrain themselves, it is the legitimate prerogative and domain of government to do so.
These ‘men of god’ can beat each other bloody from now until the cows come home and six ways to Sunday for all of me. But if they are indeed encouraging, cajoling, and/or forcing underage boys to participate, it’s time for the law and child protective services to step in
@ numo:
True, but the Catholic church is alway ethnically diverse around Vancouver – if you went to a Catholic church on a Sunday, you couldn’t distinguish which neighbourhood you were in, however, Protestant churches are almost always ethnically divided even in their English language services (I mean, most Korean or Chinese churches will have two Sunday services, one in the language of the target audience, one in English, for the less recent immigrants, the families who have raised kids here). Even Inter Varsity has a separate Chinese Intervarsity – made up of English speaking students at the University. I am not against it per se, but it seems that these divisions, over time, can’t be healthy for the Church Universal in a region.
@ Val: I’m not surprised re. Catholic parishes, though historically (after early-mid 1900s immigration here) they tended to be separated along ethnic/linguistic lines (Italian, Irish, Polish, etc.). As people became assimilated, that changed. It is true again in many areas where there are large numbers of Spanish-speaking immigrants, although many parishes have services in both English and Spanish.
I think the reason that the RC folks mix more freely where you are is probably due to a number of things, but here are two important ones –
– the focus is the eucharist, not preaching, etc.
– the folks you see are either fluent/fairly fluent in English, or actively encouraged to attend at specific parishes because those parishes host ESL classes and attendees are more likely to feel welcome in said parishes
I think you have to take many factors into consideration. Religious beliefs are one factor, but by no means the only one in play.
@ Val: transient populations – students, migrant workers, etc. – that’s yet another factor. Folks who don’t speak English well and who are new to an area are going to tend to want to be with people from “home.” It’s just how things work.
Hopefully, as people who are around for longer become acclimated, they’ll venture out more. But I can understand why many folks self-segregate; there are so many cultural differences and locals aren’t always welcoming (can range from indifference to outright hostility).
I think it’s a little less that way among Catholics and many high church Protestants, but there are often other things going on (indifference, prejudice) that can keep people apart. We’ve all got our blind spots and often serious lack of sensitivity toward people we perceive as “Other,” no matter who they are.
Kolya wrote:
Ever heard of “Hatpin Annie”?
Hatpin Annies are female pro wrestling fans who not only take all the angles and kayfabe completely serious, they get violent and physically attack the wrestlers. Such as stabbing them with hatpins, hence the name.
One of my writing partners (the one with the My Little Pony fanfics) is a pro wrestling aficionado. (He’s the guy who first told me about Wrestlecrap.com — “The Very Worst of Pro Wrestling!”) As a kid, he saw a couple local matches live and witnessed Hatpin Annies in action — outside the event, they were often the sweetest and gentlest old ladies and kids, but once the action started in the ring they’d go completely berserk. It even inspired a story of the pro wrestling scene in the world of My Little Pony: http://www.fimfiction.net/story/174890/tales-from-equestria-a-night-at-the-fights
LawProf wrote:
NO.
Arminian pastor. Armenian pastors are ordained by the Armenian Apostolic church, the oldest established state church in the world (predating Rome by about 100 years).
Sorry, Doc, ha ha! Yes, yes, bit of a funny typo, though not really a typo, as “e” and “I” nowhere near one another on keyboard. A good old misspelling.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
At least the elderly hatpin crowd have the temerity to take a risk and dive into the action somewhat, I think a number of the he-man wannabe chickenhawks would soil themselves if they ever got that close to the action.
http://bit.ly/1sUfJOH
Pastor Featured in the Movie âFight Churchâ Accused of Sexual Abuse
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/5/14/5708480/fight-church-victory-church-sex-abuse-scandal-christian-mma
This guy has issues