The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because generally they are the same people.” ― G.K. Chesterton link
A Soldier With Spear link
7:39 PM Updates coming in from Warren Throckmorton- (He's good, really good) link
UPDATE3: CNS removed the Lyall Mercer article from their website.
UPDATE1: Some of the mystery is solved. Russ Jones at Christian News Service wrote with the following information about the article on his site:
This was a PAID news release by Australian-based Mercer PR sent out at 9:30am CST. The owners name is Lyall Mercer.
This has been quite a day. Due to an item that drew my attention this afternoon, I am going to change the post. On Monday, we plan to look at the controversy at the Voice of the Martyrs along with a number of other news items. For now, we are back on the Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill controversy. Here is a quick review of the past week, along with links to posts. Then I will share my afternoon, uncovering a weird story.
1. Twenty (20) former Mars Hill pastors seek outside mediation with Mark Driscoll and church leadership. LINK.
According to former Mars Hill pastors Dave Kraft and Kyle Firstenberg, the pastors want to bring in specialists in conflict resolution to facilitate the process.
Dr Throckmorton obtained the following statement from Dave Kraft's website
1. I would (as would countless other former leaders from MHC) like to see Pastor Mark Driscoll publicly acknowledge that he has seen the charges, that they are true and that he will take whatever time and attention is needed to intentionally deal with the charges, which may entail a short sabbatical from work to focus on this.
2. I would like to see Pastor Mark publicly state that he is sorry, that he has sinned, that he will deal with his past sin and make himself accountable in so doing to an unbiased group of leaders who will hold his feet to the fire on this.
2. Mark Driscoll pitches his new project: partnering with Corban University and Western Seminary to offer courses on the Bible at Mars Hill. LINK
TWW hopes that they will first teach the folks how to properly "cite" material for their papers.
3. Former Mars Hill elder Rob Smith starts a group to exonerate fired elders Bent Meyer and Paul Petry LINK and LINK
You can read Bent Meyer's story here and Paul Petry's story here.
4. Another Mars Hill member, Bryan Zug, tells current members to evacuate Mars Hill LINK and LINK
Mars Hill will not be a healthy Gospel Community for at least 2-3 years. It’s time to evacuate it in an orderly manner
5. Wenatchee the Hatchet reports that almost all of the sermons preached by Mark Driscoll before 2008 have been "driscollized" from the website. LINK
The question is why?
If Mark Driscoll wants to apologize for angry stuff he's said and done in the past obliterating the extensive audio and video evidence for what his preaching has been like over about seventeen years hardly seems like a persuasive way to get that job done. If anything it seems dishonest and cowardly to erase any trace of practically the man's entire pastoral career.
If this is supposed to be a sign of getting rid of material from Mark Driscoll's angry young prophet phase 1) Driscoll wasn't exactly a spring chicken even in 2008 and 2) obliterating 70% of Driscoll's preached content over the course of a week is quite a purge, possibly the single largest purge of media content from Mars Hill Church websites in its history.
6. Former Pastor Dave Kraft explains the charges against Mark Driscoll and gets some deserved pushback from former Mars Hill deacon, Rob Smith. LINK
At Dr Throckmorton's website we read about Kraft's charges.
Mark Driscoll’s sin(s) (for many of us who know him and have worked with him) are about clear violations of I Timothy 3, Titus 1 and I Peter 5.
1. Not being self-controlled and disciplined
2. Being domineering
3. Being verbally violent
4. Being arrogant
5. Being quick-tempered
Here is Kraft's description of the two types of people who are criticizing Mark Driscoll.
Here is a feeding frenzy in the media regarding Mars Hill Church. Those with something to say (and who are saying it) probably fit into two main camps.
1. Those who want what’s best for MHC and its core leadership led by Mark Driscoll
2. Those who would like to destroy both the church and its visionary and teaching pastor Mark Driscoll
However, Rob Smith makes some cogent points in a comment to this post.
The assertion of people being in one of two camps is stunning to me. If Dave Kraft believes his own assertion (and I do not believe he does) it says a lot that helps me understand how he and other pastors at Mars Hill have and continue to "fail to step up to the plate" (to use Kraft’s words).
I am certainly not in camp # 2, but neither am I in camp # 1. Both camps center around MHC and its core leadership under Mark Driscoll.
Neither camp cares for the sheep. Neither camp cares for those that are hurt. So I propose a third camp:
Camp # 3. Those who want to protect, restore and minister to the people that have been harmed by Mars Hill Church and its abusive leadership.
This camp exists and consists of the people and pastors that have reached out to hurting members, while Kraft and the 20 pastors have admittedly failed to step up to the plate.
The fact that Kraft sees himself in camp #1, failing to envision a camp #3, is why we are not hearing of repentance from specific sins from him or Mark Driscoll. Mark did not act alone, and what the hurting sheep need to hear is repentance from the Pastors at Mars Hill Church. True repentance that will minister to their wounds.
I am highly skeptical, although slightly hopeful, that the 20 former pastors can come to a joyful reconciliation with Mark Driscoll. But already Driscoll is praising God for the current governance structure – the very structure that has paved the way for, tolerated, and stood behind his abusive ways.
The fact remains that these 20 former elders shared in the abusive harm to members. Some of them voted for by-laws that removed the protective role that existed in the old by-laws where the church was governed by a plurality of equal elders.
Only 2 camps?
If one cannot envision a Mars Hill Church without Driscoll then one’s vision of the church is skewed. If one’s first concern is not to minister to the harmed sheep then one’s vision of pastoral ministry is skewed.
7. My very odd Friday: Did you know that Janet Mefferd is an "enemy inside the church?"
So, it looked like things were not going well for Mark Driscoll this week. Then, something odd happened. Is this a mere coincidence? is it another one of those strange "glitches" that Owen Strachan mentioned? LINK (You must read this. TWW is credited with starting the word "Driscollize" by the Associated Baptist Press. It's official!)
This morning, Janet Mefferd tweeted
Good night! Who in the world thinks that Mefferd is an enemy? Must be some radicalized individual, right? Nope.
CNS (Christian News Service) posts "Driscoll Controversy Highlights Need for Churches to Develop PR Strategies to Protect from Christians" LINK. Shortly after that, Charisma News LINK posted "Mark Driscoll Plagiarism Controversy Shows an Enemy Within."
However, except for a few words and different bylines, the articles were identical. Now the bylines are identical but I'll explain that in a minute. These posts were allegedly written about the views of Lyall Mercer of Mercer PR. These were allegedly paid to be posted on CNS! This was discovered by Warren Throckmorton and posted at this LINK. Who actually wrote them? We would guess that Russ Jones had something to do with it. Did he send it to Charisma? Then why was the post at Charisma originally under Bill Roberts name? Did the Mercer PR firm have a hand in writing this post?
Deb and I did some research on Lyall Mercer and his public relations firm which will probably cause us to be added to the "enemies within the church" ranks. From the Mercer PR website here
Mercer PR is a boutique public and media relations consultancy with clients across the corporate, political, church, non-profit, sporting and legal fields. We specialise in media relations, corporate strategy and communications, reputation management and crisis communications.
Mercer PR is based in Brisbane with sub-offices in Sydney, Melbourne and North Queensland, and deals with clients across Australia and media both nationally and internationally. We have associates in the USA and UK and also assist individuals with a story to tell, by negotiating the best media outcomes for all concerned.
To protect confidentiality, we do not list our clientele on this website, however can provide endorsements from many of our respected and high-profile clients upon request.
So, why is this guy writing about Janet Mefferd? Better yet, why is he writing a piece about Mark Driscoll? Isn't he having some sort of image issue at the moment? Darned if TWW knows. But, let's see what he said about Mefferd, first at the linked Charisma post and then at the linked CNS post. This is kind of cool since it will allow us to quote more than we normally can quote.
Charisma: Mefferd is identified as the enemy within the church.
A public relations strategist who assists churches and ministries with issues and reputation management says that while the mainstream media is becoming more anti-church, the greatest threat comes from within.
Principal of Mercer PR Lyall Mercer says the current spate of negative publicity against Seattle's Mars Hill Church is being driven by Christians.
"The American church is splintered on both theological and ideological grounds, which leads many within the church to focus more on criticizing other Christians than looking at their own lives," Mercer notes.
"The attacks against pastor Mark Driscoll that were started by radio host Janet Mefferd—and are still ongoing—have caused a lot of damage to both Mars Hill and the church at large. This should be a wake-up call to other churches.
"Churches are usually aware of negative mainstream publicity but often ignore the danger of the enemy within," he adds.
From CNS: Mercer says he doesn't think much of "watchmen."
Mr. Mercer said entire ‘ministries’ have been created around trashing other ministries, and new media gives them more exposure than ever before.
“The instant digital and social media age provides a forum to those Christians who see themselves as the watchmen of the church, and the result is endless attacks on higher profile churches and ministries,” he explained.
So, who ya gonna call when this happens? I guess it is people like him.
From CNS:
“But in a time of adverse publicity or crisis, the best person a ministry leader can call is not another pastor, but a professional outside the church, because they need an honest assessment of the way they are being perceived and they need a bigger picture response
Well, Dee was a little irritated about Mefferd being called an enemy inside the church (at least that is how I read it). I was also flabbergasted to read two almost identical articles with different bylines. The CNS post was bylined by Russ Jones and the Charisma post was bylined by Bill Roberts. But both of them were pretty much identical in content. So I called both news services.
After speaking with a woman who answered the phone, I was put into voicemail at Charisma. At CNS, I spoke with a nice woman (whose name I wrote down and cannot find-but I am no journalist) who was quite nice and said that she liked Janet Mefferd and would look into it. She did explain that CNS primarily publishes press releases from churches and other groups.
Shortly after those calls, Dr Throckmorton confirmed that Charisma changed the byline on their post from Bill Roberts to Russ Jones. He also said
Note to Charisma News, it certainly isn’t news. A news story would have included commentary from Janet Mefferd and some of the former pastors and members who are going public with their concerns and experiences while at Mars Hill.
Probably the best thing for both places to do is to take the article down and start over with some real journalism.
Things are starting to get really nasty out there. Lyall Mercer used the word "enemy" to describe those within the church who are exposing abuse and excesses within the church. Was he drumming up business? Was he speaking as a paid representative for others? Was he just a nice guy speaking from his heart? Did we miss another alternative like Dave Kraft did? We will let our readers opine. Folks, when we start calling each other enemies, the real Enemy has won.
World Down's Syndrome Day is today! link
A mother found out she was expecting a baby with Down Syndrome. She wanted to know what to expect. Young people with Down Syndrome from all over the world tell her. TWW salutes those children and adults with Down Syndrome and their families who bring such joy to this world!
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 48:1-49:22 2 Timothy 4:1-22 Psalm 95:1-96:13 Proverbs 26:9-12
First..? 🙂
I’m thinking Mercer PR might not be the best PR firm… for anyone.
Awe, such a sweet video, brought tears to my eyes, in a good way.
The link to CNS game me this:
This is somewhat embarrassing, isn’t it?
It seems we can’t find what you’re looking for.
Anyone getting the page?
Lyall’s piece appears to have been, shall we say, driscollized. However, this oddly similar pitch piece from Mercer is still there …for now.
When a pastor has to hire a “reputation management” firm, it really should be over.
That video was so sweet. Back in the fifties my grandmother taught a class for kids with Down syndrome in our church. (This was before there was education for everyone in the public schools) I loved playing with those sweet children. Any parent of a Down syndrome child has a special blessing.
You are never going to get “real journalism” from Charisma Mag.
As in “BAIL OUT!”?
Because she’s the new Emmanuel Goldstein?
Taylor Joy wrote:
Reputation Management Firm = Spin Doctors?
Yet again —
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
When your Godly Gospelly antics bring to mind the RL inspiration of Orwell’s 1984, maybe you need to rethink your Ministry.
I am disgusted by the week… but what a great way to end this post with that video 🙂
Traveling guys… 🙂
Traveling guys… 🙂
LOL. I really hope they didn’t pay this PR firm very much money.
crisis.management.fail.
…as if criticism of Driscoll just suddenly started with Mefferd.
I don’t see a problem with Driscoll removing some content from his website, if he now feels some of the content was less than appropriate. For goodness sake, if he didn’t take it down, he would be accused of not truly repenting.
When I saw the mention about Down’s syndrome, I couldn’t help but think of Michael Kelley Blanchard’s song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_tzThE_7UM
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or as in “Abandon Ship!?”
I didn’t realize you were only interested in bad Baptist theology. Maybe you were so excited to get recognized for coining “driscolized”
Whoops I got my post cut off…
“The Wartburg Watch, a blog that follows what organizers regard as bad theology in Baptist life,”
That’s what the apbnews said of the fine Wartburg bloggers,
-the current spate of negative publicity against Seattle’s Mars Hill Church is being driven by Christians.
Not by Driscoll, no, he had nothing to do with it, if pesky Christians had kept their blogs silent, then he could go on plagiarizing, using ghost writers and buying his way onto bestseller lists with impunity.
-“The American church is splintered on both theological and ideological grounds, which leads many within the church to focus more on criticizing other Christians than looking at their own lives,” Mercer notes.
There is truth here, the evangelical church is splintering these days on theological and ideological grounds. However, Christians are also warning each other of underhanded tactics, questionable leadership and so on. For example, there are a lot of members of the Gospel Coalition, and many people don’t theologically agree with TGC; however, few of them are making huge headlines other than CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll and Piper, except when the jump in to defend them. People don’t take apart Tim Keller’s ministry, Trevin Wax’s, nor David Short’s (pastors listed on TGC board) ministry, so, it isn’t simply theological and ideological grounds causing these reactions.
-“The attacks against pastor Mark Driscoll that were started by radio host Janet Mefferd—and are still ongoing—have caused a lot of damage to both Mars Hill and the church at large. This should be a wake-up call to other churches.
Why, are other pastor’s plagiarizing? Doing unethical things? If they aren’t why would they need to worry?
“Churches are usually aware of negative mainstream publicity but often ignore the danger of the enemy within,” he adds.
Some church leaders and marketing firms are shocked when Christians expect pastors to behave ethically, and react by calling for accountability when they don’t.
Emmaline wrote:
Yes- we were thrilled about being recognized for our word “driscollized. ” As for the other, no one really knows what we do. Neither do we! 🙂
dee wrote:
Great comment.
Emmaline wrote:
Remember, it is ABP so they are focused. We look at everything.
Do you actually think any of these explosions, dramas, controversies are new in Christendom?
*
I don’t.
@ JadedOne:
It’s been a busy week just trying to keep up. Remember, Dee and I are ‘volunteer’ journalistic bloggers.
And to think that I was reluctant to start blogging with Dee because I didn’t believe there would be enough to write about…
OH DEAR!!! We have been so busy trying to stay on top of developments that we completely forgot that Wednesday (3/19) was TWW’s 5th anniversary…
Does anyone know who paid Lyall (Lie All) to put this story out there? OR did he do it out of the goodness of his heart? I say we follow the money on this one. Someone hired a PR Firm to smear anyone who speaks out about abuse in the church, and especially Mark Driscoll. It really would be nice to know who did it……Is it the usual supsects or someone new?
The fine and Godly church leaders who were called super-apostles in the Bible (they were “super”, what more need we say?) received all sorts of negative publicity, and it was being driven by a Christian–Paul–how dare he?
The First Century Church was being splintered on both theological and ideological grounds by that blasted Paul (who was referred to as a mere “apostle”–no “super” for him, mind you) and it apparently led him to focus more on criticizing other Christians–the poor supers–than looking at his own life.
The attacks against the super-apostles that were started by Paul caused a lot of damage to both the Church at Corinth and the church at large. It should have been a wake-up call–why wasn’t the First Century Church paying attention? Why did the First Century Church ignore the danger of the enemy within–the Apostle Paul?
@ rebeccalynn: Sadly, I think Lyall simply saw a marketing opportunity. Perhaps his January pitch wasn’t as successful as he’d hoped and he thought by lining up with the Justin Taylors of the world and attacking Janet Mefferd he’d get more PR work.
I don’t think Herr Driscoll had anything to do with this.
Deb wrote:
Happy Anniversary! Many more!
Charisma removed all the comments from the Lyall Mercer paid PR piece, leaving it up sans comments. However, you can read them here. Thank you, Evernote.
Classic stupid move by a PR dude who thought this would drum up some new business for himself. Ha. Shows he doesn’t have any idea what he’s doing.
Christian Newswire is merely a pay-per-press-release site. People like Lyall submit self-serving press releases all day long. That’s the entire purpose…
http://www.christiannewswire.com/index.php?module=releases&task=send
Here’s their price structure:
Nationwide Conservative/Pro-Family Beat ($75.00)
Top News Radio Stations and Talk Radio Hosts ($65.00)
Christian Radio, TV, & Print, 1000 outlets ($65.00)
Catholic Media, over 400 outlets ($65.00)
Opinion Editors, over 350 opinion page editors ($100.00)
Black Media, over 350 outlets ($65.00)
Hispanic Media, over 150 outlets ($65.00)
Janey wrote:
It’s very clumsily done. I’m a bit shocked. If Driscoll and co. really didn’t have connections to this, I feel bad for him being victim to this. Sort of. In a way. It’s equal parts hilarious.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
With friends like that….
Deb wrote:
Happy Anniversary!!! Here’s hoping there are many more to celebrate!
@ dee:
Congratulations on the recognition!
Deb wrote:
Congratulations on the anniversary. This blog provides a necessary forum. Thanks for all your hard work!
@ Deb:
Happy belated anniversary! 🙂 I’m glad you and Dee started TWW!
eh… maybe the marketing firm is trying to advertise themselves and don’t have a (current) financial relationship w/MH. maybe MH took down the old sermons from Angry Prophet days because… he was an angry prophet.
It might be a bit too soon to figure out long term what MH’s prospects are.
(Of course this comment was going to be a lot more cynical but THAT VIDEO!! YOU MADE ME CRY LIKE I WAS WATCHING UP!)
Taylor Joy wrote:
One would think so.
But with Kraft’s tepid announcement and non-disclosure of who the 20-something united pastors are, it is doubtful that Driscoll is shaking in his boots. The money is still flowing in, and in his “apology” he affirmed the organizational structure which he created and lords over.
Look like Mark Driscoll is getting ready to lead mars Hill in worship!! 😛
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdNn5TZu6R8
Remember dudes…..let’s “act like men!!”
You can e-mail the article that is still up there about Janet Medford attacking Mark Driscoll. I hope everyone will send them an email letting them know how disappointed they are.
Deebs!!! Have you heard? Mars Hill finally found a marketing director who can attack the blogs, pour out the books..ugh I mean propaganda. Just listen he’s getting ready to speak to the masses… 😛
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUZBQg4Z1JE
I noticed that Charisma News has closed the comments to the story concerning Lyall Mercer and Mark Driscoll. This comes just over a week after Charisma removed some comments that were critical of either Steve Hill, the recently deceased leader of the so-called “Brownsville Revival,” or the “revival” itself. Evidently publisher Steve Strang, editor Marcus Yoars and news editor Jennifer LeClaire are taking cues from the “Young, Restless and Reformed” camp in dealing with dissenting views.
It’s so silly when these Calvinistas try and blame all of their problems on “bloggers” and “enemies” (in the MH/A29 lingo: “wolves”). As if there are a bunch of evil people trying to take down innocent pastors.
I haven’t seen guys like Eugene Peterson go through this sort of experience. Not to mention the hundreds (thousands?) of godly men and women serving the church humbly and faithfully in a way that doesn’t court controversy.
At our old A29 church, the leadership was constantly raving about “wolves” who would critique the leadership to “cause division” and “hurt Christ’s work.” Very similar attitude and approach here. It’s amazing how much Mars Hill ethos and culture was imbued to Acts 29, and yet Acts 29 has thus far managed to avoid the brunt of the current controversy. Here’s hoping they face some scrutiny, too. Seattle is just the tip of the iceberg in terms or how many people the Mars Hill culture has hurt. (And I just saw that A29 are really trying to push into Europe!)
Two years ago, a college professor asked, “How much more evidence do you need?”
Two years later, the evidence and the bodies piled high, the Mars Hill elders are still beating around the bush.
http://robertcargill.com/2012/01/24/how-much-more-evidence-do-you-need-mark-driscolls-mars-hill-church-is-a-cult/
Congrats on the 5th anniversary of TWW, Deb and Dee.
this might be too long to post, but i keep thinking these might apply. i think a person who distorts the gospel for financial gain is worse than the Pharisees that the apostle paul called enemies of the gospel. it is distorting the words of Jesus for money and fame, not just distorting the traditions and rules of the temple.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:33-37
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame… Jude 1:10-13
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:19-24
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Eph 5:5-13
Happy belated bloggiversary! All y’all totototally rock!
i am seriously concerned about all the acts 29 churches that had to get their indoctrination from the books and teachings of mark driscoll to become members of acts 29 network. its as if there are hundreds of mars hill churches now, not just one in seattle. mark driscoll is still on the acts 29 recommended books list, as well as piper stetzer amd grudem. acts 29 churches have to go to resurgence, retrain and all the other re-gospel teachings that started with mark driscoll. *unless they driscollize tomorrow…
Mr.H wrote:
Traitors, Thought-criminals, and Goldsteinists…
Mr.H wrote:
Hate Week in Oceania?
AKA “Tomorrow The World!”
@ LawProf:
Good points.
It does no harm to remember that the blogsphere is multi-cultural. There are many kinds of church leader, and likewise there are many kinds of Christian blog.
The first “discernment blogs” I came across were private websites dedicated to “exposing” all the “deception” and “false teaching” invading the church through well-known ministries. It’s not quite the case as much now, but around a decade ago you couldn’t google a well-known Christian author or speaker without at least three of the top ten hits declaring him/her a heretic.
The owner of this kind of site would pick over the writings of someone famous, with a fine-toothed comb, to find the tiny fraction of that person’s output that, when taken out of context and suitably interpreted next to the blogger’s own carefully-chosen fragments of the bible – also taken out of context – would prove Billy Graham to be a liar, a deceiver and a worshipper of santa. [Deliberately ironic mis-spelling.]
There were some common themes running through these sites:
They were owned by people like me: egotistical nonentities who fancied themselves as authorities on doctrine while being too lazy and inept to earn such a title.
They demonstrated no real relationship with anyone else in the church.
They were obsessed only with theory and doctrine, and naturally believed their own to be superior to all others because they alone based their doctrine on The Word Of God™.
They lacked any shred of love, grace or compassion; crucially, they were for nobody’s benefit and existed only to accuse.
In other words, the Church didn’t really need them.
Those websites still exist, of course. But now, we also have blogs that look less at doctrine than at behaviour and, in particular, the behaviour of those whose reach would otherwise greatly exceed their accountability. Moreover, many of these are set up not primarily to pop the bubbles of the rich and powerful, but to speak out on behalf of the downtrodden and oppressed.
These blogs are not the enemies of the church.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Well said!
In other news … Julie Ann at Spiritual Sounding Board is reporting that Doug Phillips is threatening to sue the VF people who confronted him with his sin … for defamation and destroying his business!
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/03/21/breaking-doug-phillips-threatens-lawsuit-against-former-vision-forum-associates-who-had-earlier-confronted-him-about-his-sexual-sins/
@ Leila:
Thanks for alerting us about Julie Anne's post. Why am I not surprised by Phillips?
srs wrote:
an angry wannabe prophet.
there was no true prophecy involved.
he was angry about what made HIM angry.
NOT about what made God angry.
@ Leila:
I don’t think it’s defamation if it’s true. How stupid does rampant narcisissm make someone?
sam wrote:
Yes and yes. Concerning the Gospel and ALL scripture.
Imagine my shock. During a time of meditation on the allegorical* nature Song of Solomon I searched for other teachings on it on the internet from pastors and scholars. I stumbled upon a news piece concerning Driscoll’s Scotland Sermon and was mortified beyond reason.
A book of the Bible that I felt contained healing for the brokenhearted and down-trodden, some false, angry, prophet wannabe was turning it into something to oppress break the hearts of women -> FOR PROFIT!
(*It is disputed whether SoS can be looked upon as allegorical. I believe that it can. Many others disagree.)
In other news, Chelsea are 4-0 up against Arsenal at half-time, the latter being reduced to 10 men under bizarre circumstances.
This is sub-optimal. I have nothing against Chelsea, but from our point of view it would have been better if the teams either side of us had drawn.
@ Eagle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcYsO890YJY
@ Mara:
I guess rather than being an angry young prophet, Driscoll was actually an angry young profit. Or at least he wanted to make and angry young profit. However you look at it.
@ Taylor Joy:
yay!
@ Moxie:
I said the same thing to Lyall Mercer. He got on twitter to “tell” Janet Meffered that he didn’t say what we think he said. I said he did and that I was posting on it. I then told his this wasn’t a good example of his PR.
Dee is probably on his “mark of the beast” list.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Possibility 3: He is shilling for business. If so, he screwed up.
But I want to know which one it is.
@ dee:
Whoops-Dee didn’t write that so I wasn’t complimenting myself!
LawProf wrote:
Great comment.
@ Janey:
What is worse….other news services quote them.
@ JeffT:
I agree with Bill about 90%. There is still a part of me that isn’t so sure.
singleman wrote:
They are only hurting themselves in the long run. Censorship only leads to rebellion.
Mr.H wrote:
And they wonder why, despite their “superior” research, people continue to leave the church.
Anon wrote:
Sadly, you are correct.
TedS. wrote:
I remember when he wrote this. It bears repeating.
@ TedS.:
I’m afraid different methods need to be employed-see Rob Smith and FaceBook.
@ sam:
I will used those verses in future posts.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks-still trying to keep up with it all and failing miserably at times.
sam wrote:
We are keeping an eye on things. We are not so sure that things are going so well. Note the lack of braggadocio-“We planted 100 churches and they are booming” statements. Also, they never discuss the failures and there have been some-or even quite a few.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
They are characterized by bold lettering-often in blue and red with the word “heresy” repeated on every other line.
Some have gotten more sophisticated-now they call you “barely Christians” and claim they represent the “Biblical” view and quote John Piper and Ken Ham liberally…….
uh oh-I will really be put on the enemies list now.
@ Leila:
That was one of the stories I intended to cover yesterday.
@ Mara:
However, there was Profit…
@ BeakerJ:
Its money-its always been about the money.
Happy Anniversary, TWW! What better way to celebrate than seeing your work bear fruit this week.
Deebs, what you do here, along with contributors, has served to keep me reminded that I’m not insane! 😉 Thank you! Thank you, all!
@ dee:
So much news to report, so little time…
Attacks against Mark Driscoll were started by Janet Mefferd????? WHAT????? I had no idea.
I guess I just DREAMED about how tons and tons and tons and tons of mature Christians have been calling for Mark Driscoll to step down since 2010 or 2011.
Good grief! If you’re going to be THAT stupid, PLEASE don’t do it on the internet in front of everyone in an official story!
I can’t take this!
Okay, sorry, just had to get that comment off my chest. But seriously. If they were going to write a story on this, pretending that it started with Mefferd’s show isn’t just untrue and unfair, it’s plain bad journalism. Holy cow. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Dee and Deb. I can think of one news organization I’ll be taking with a grain of salt from now on 🙁
sam wrote:
I am too. Thanks for bringing this up.
(Dee, Deb, has CNS been fair-minded or not, in your experience, on past issues? Just curious about your take on that since they have so monumentally screwed the pooch here).
Also, I love how the guy calling out Watchmen is doing the exact. same. thing. he says the Watchmen are doing: taking it upon himself to “call out” Christians he doesn’t know.
I guess if you don’t mention their names, it doesn’t count.
rebeccalynn wrote:
It occurs to me that Lyall has significant fiduciary motivation to create a narrative where Christians are at each other’s throats and using new media to trash each other…
BeakerJ wrote:
You are correct, sir, as any first year law student or any half-baked journalist or virtually anyone who has a moderate degree of education and experience in life could tell you. Truth is an absolute defense to defamation.
Happy 5th anniversary to my blogging sistahs. Thanks for all you do! My life has been changed since stumbling across your blog and I am a different person today than I was 3+ yrs ago when I first found you.
LawProf wrote:
I genuinely like this kind of “old-school” courtesy.
Er – except you do realise Beaks is madam rather than sir? 😉
___
“Highway Ta ‘Brand’ Smell, Perhaps?”
…the current spate of negative publicity against Seattle’s Mars Hill Church is being driven by abused Christians thrown under the buss?
hmmm…
Mars Hill and Resurgence are receiving negative brand-name impact due to extended negative Mark Driscoll ‘Brand’ publicity.
(Krunch!)
Mark Driscoll hiding out in the coat-closet, isn’t going to help matters.
-snicker-
Think this stuff is gonna blow away?
(Think Again!)
Think Theyz gotz you’ze number.
Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Mars Hill was to be a house of prayer, you have made it a private possession, a proverbial bloody da nose bad boyz ‘try n’ stop me! bruiser bus of nefarious ‘religious’ abuse, Whoa! and other sundry items?
hmmm…
___
Comic relief?: Вопли Видоплясов – “Marzhil bus ride to ‘Brand’ where?” (Ukrainian Folk Version) 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3YQ24i1wP0
Intermission? : Gershwin – “Un americano a Parigi”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXn9BV_Zzl8
;~)
—
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Oops, so much for the courtesy. Very sorry, Ms Beaker, “mam”.
By the way, Mr. Bulbeck, I sense a kindred spirit in you, I like the self-effacing humor, the elan. You have gone near the top of my list of those whom I’d like to throw back a beer with in a good loud bar, not far behind, in order: Jesus the Christ, C.S. Lewis, Fyodor Dostoevsky.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I remember coming across a sermon someone uploaded to youtube in which the preacher proclaimed that Billy Graham was going to hell over something he said on CNN. I kept thinking (for the 2 minutes that I watched) “people got up on Sunday for this?”
There are sorts – including some in leadership positions – who cannot handle that someone on the interne… er, that someone in real life is “wrong”
@ Mara:
Yeah, not really prophetical. And probably profit-able. I was expressing hope that maybe – MAYBE – it could be a first step of repentance. (yeah, I didn’t spell it out that well.) Given the track record, it is highly unlikely. But for the sake of the congregation there is it something worth praying for.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Excellent observation. Those blogs run by the “Thee” and “thou” crowd, driving their 25 year old vans pasted with 300 bumperstickers: “Repent Ye”, “KJV Only”, “WARNING: This vehicle unoccupied in case of rapture”. People just roll their eyes at those websites–provided they c
Mr.H wrote:
Yes. Yes. And Yes. Mr. H., I had previously wondered if we had attended the same A29 church, but I am recalling there was something that you said in a previous comment (I can’t remember what it was) that made me preclude that possibility. I’m pretty sure we were at different A29 churches, but they are basically all the same!! The “wolf” talk and “division” was rampant!! Even over the most ridiculous of things…
We had ONE all-women small group, and the leader of it once brought up the (ear splitting) volume of the worship music to the worship pastor. She was probably the sweetest person ever and she said something to the effect of “Our group was talking about this the other night. We can’t hear our fellow church members worshipping around us and we miss that. I was wondering if we could think about changing the style a little bit.” She was told that she was being divisive to the body and that we don’t sing music to please her or fulfill her preferences. A couple weeks later they DISBANDED her small group. Then, in a sermon a little while later the pastor did a section on “could you be a wolf and not realize it?” and one of the examples he gave was complaining about silly things like the music or the color of the walls. [I kind of wonder if some unsuspecting wolf thought the church needed a repaint.]
LawProf wrote:
KEYBOARD ERROR:
…provided they can even navigate/read the websites, which are oft in deep red lettering on black backgrounds. Nobody pays attention, you don’t see the Big Business “Christian” PR Conference Money Machine taking them on. The reason The Machine attacks the TWW, Ms Medford and the like is because they are not spittle-spraying lunatics, they are rational Christians following biblical mandates to expose evil. Hence, the pose a threat to The Machine.
sad observer wrote:
Watchblogs started before that.
http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/
@ Julie Anne:
I remember the day I first talked with you. I was sitting in a parking lot outside of the Wild Birds Unlimited store and I remember telling you that I knew you would win in that lawsuit. Do you know how many times I prayed for your that week?
You have gone on to become a dynamo!
Mature Christians have been sounding the alarm for some time.
http://marshillchurchabuse.blogspot.com/2009/04/new-york-times-who-would-jesus-smack.html
Mr.H wrote:
I was driving around my area early last Sunday morning (I’d been out taking pictures at the local rose garden) and noticed a church I hadn’t seen before. Looked it up on the Intertubes. It’s an Acts 29 plant. Two miles from my house. Argh.
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
My condolences. If more people knew what those people are like, their presence would lower property values.
I’m honestly wondering if Mark Drisocll is even a Neo-Calvinist – for the right. Hear me out as I write this….I wonder in light of all the problems pouring out of Mars Hill does this not resmble this SGM mess? Is Dave Kraft/Rob Smith going to be the Brent Detwiler for the Mars Hill crowd? What about Acts 29? Is there going to be more stuff pouring out of that network. But getting back to what I am saying I am wondering if the reason why Mark Driscoll claims Neo-Calvinism is becuase he can do this and get away with it. He can abuse or treat a person like crap and can get away with it. So if that’s the case and if I were a Neo-Reformed person I’d be pretty miffed to say someone claiming something who didn’t believe it.
I would like to know with all that is pouring out of Mars Hill now…I wonder where is John Piper and Matt Chandler? Why are they so silent? Does anyone know what they are up to?
Eagle wrote:
L Ron Hubbard had the same position against mental health counseling, and according to non-Scientologist bios was a real piece of work mentally. His hostility may have been more than just eliminating the competition to Dianetics.
Eagle wrote:
“These five Kings said one to another,
‘King unto King o’er the world is Brother’…”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
sad observer wrote:
Ees Party Line, Comrade.
(And remember there is always more room under the bus.)
Eagle wrote:
You aren’t the first, nor will you be the last.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
Purity of Ideology.
Just ask Citizen Robespierre or Comrade Pol Pot.
Eagle wrote:
I keep waiting for someone half-way near these men to sound off one way or another.
I keep waiting.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This was a problem I experienced regarding the Christian Cult Watch organizations of the Seventies. They defined “CULT(TM)” entirely by doctrine and theology, NOT repeat NOT by control-freak abusive behavior towards their flocks. Abusive “Fellowships” would routinely get clean bills of health (“Not a Cult”) from these Cult Watch authorities — it helped that these abusive splinter churches had the same Dispensationalist Fundagelical theology as the Cult Watchers — and these “Not a Cult” pronouncements would be used as an additional weapon to beat down the Bitter, Lukewarm, Heretical sheep. While the Cult Watchers were parsing theology letter-by-letter sniffing for Cult Heresy, these Not-a-Cults were under the radar beating down their people.
Mara wrote:
They could be trying to figure out how to cover their own backsides before responding. Or they simply may not care.
Mara wrote:
I have high hopes that Chandler is not as awful as the rest. But I did once hear him talk about bloggers and how blogs give a voice to people who normally no one would listen to (he said it in a way that made it sound like they shouldn’t be listened to). It did not give me much hope that he has any sympathy for the marginalized or hurt. Or that he would ever stand with those speaking out.
Anon wrote:
Agreed that Mr. Kraft’s announcement and call to repentance are less than the strong retribution & removal that Mr. Driscoll seems to deserve…and I do agree with the ‘cogent’ points of Mr. Rob Smith…
But,”Tepid”?–let’s extend some grace here to Mr. Kraft. His announcement was hailed with glee and confetti by lots of bloggers & readers of blogs 2 weeks ago, but now that his specific charges have been further dissected by that same blogosphere, some here seem quite willing to toss him out of the vehicle also because of his perceived timidity & lack oF concern for members who were injured….
Victims of abuse (and I think Mr. Kraft qualifies as such) deserve our support for any steps taken to heal–even if they are baby steps and seem too weak for an onlooker.
As a victim of severe child abuse (Charges filed even in the 1960′s) I have deep concern for the pain and suffering of my siblings and indeed for all abuse victims and work as much as I can to help victims receive redress & healing.
However,I must first start to heal myself before I can be of much use to anyone else. I am sure people can point out that Mr. Kraft was a pastor and therefore held to a higher standard.
But, I am also the wife of a former pastor who left a church in the mid 1990′s rather than participate in a cover-up of the sexual abuse done by our Youth Pastor.
I can tell you that the tide of feeling and actions taken while under the leadership of a strong demanding pastor can be overwhelmingly strong. Pastors face huge feelings of guilt & doubt when leaving a church, and I think we can have some empathy here…
Further, Mr. Kraft presented his charges in a formal legal document sort of way. When charges are filed, they must be quite specific. Even if the plaintiff, lawyer or Prosecutor wishes to address further crimes, their detailing must be reserved for another filing….within the structure of the formal charges by all the pastors, I think we can see, from their viewpoint, why they were limited in this fashion.
It is the job of all of us to address abuses; not all of us are able to take on the whole of the mess.
Let us be sure that we are acting as Barnabas did by coming along side and walking with our fellow Sisters & Brothers in Christ.
@ molly245:
Sorry-the first 3 sentences in the above comment should have showed as a quote from a previous commenter. Sorry, I still have trouble getting this quoting thing right.
Is it possible that some entity has hired this PR firm specifically to target Mefferd? It’s starting to sound like an entity wants to ruin Mefferd when she isn’t the only person concerned with Driscoll by a long shot. I’d like to know who hired the PR firm and why.
@ molly245:
Fixed it for you. 🙂
Here's what works for me. Highlight the part of someone's comment you want to quote, then click on the button "Reply with quote".
Your comment will automatically begin with the commenter's name and the part of their remarks you want to quote. Try it, it's fun!
Bridget wrote:
Interesting thought.
One way or another, we must make sure that powers that be know that we stand in solidarity with her.
singleman wrote:
I think it’s more likely that they are simply hiding from this – celebrity preachers just don’t seem to have the courage of their convictions when it comes to one of their own.
Moxie wrote:
Many of them live in their bubble.
They are quite comfortable there.
Although I expect things are heating up, even in their little bubbles.
JeffT wrote:
I lean this way.
But there is always room for them to surprise me.
They haven’t yet.
But it could happen.
Mara wrote:
Yes indeed!
Moxie wrote:
Whenever I think of Matt Chandler, two words come to mind – narcissistic zero. I had never heard anyone use that terminology before.
You can hear him rant in the following post (2:40 mark).
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-so-much-angst-about-anonymous.html
In other news, the day ended with a 6-0 win for Chelsea, a 5-0 win for Man City and… a 6-3 away win for Liverpool. Nobody blinked at the top of the table!
Think Match of the Day might be worth a look tonight.
This PR effort is so badly done that we have all been thinking that Driscoll, who is not a stupid man, couldn’t have had anything to do with it. I wonder though, because he IS an angry man, pathologically so it seems, and anger has impaired his judgment in the past. He was definitely angry at Janet Mefferd.
I have been commenting on some of Warren Throckmorton’s posts about Mark Driscoll when someone from our old church Countryside has decided to pop up and attack me. After making quite a few really nasty pointed comments he finally showed his hand. I am just kinda surprised it took this long for someone to slip their restraining bolts and come after me. I am done being a victim however, and won’t stand for it. This is the kind of bully mentality Mark cultivates in his churches, be they Acts 29 or a Mars Hill location. They tried again and again to get my husband to shut me up, and when did not work they walked us out. And now this guy is trying to smear me again. sigh. When will they learn that the old Becky Lynn would have been intimidated and scared but she died the day they walked her and the family out the church doors……If we don’t keep up the pressure and make noise nothing will ever change.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Exactly. We are standing against a false gospel of bullying and intimidation. It doesn't matter how pure their (other) doctrine is if it accompanied by this crap. It's not actually the gospel.
Moderation, boom, boom.
Mara wrote:
Whatever became of freedom4?
Seems the church needs her more now than ever.
rebeccalynn wrote:
These are the times you need to name names!
@ Deb:
LOL just listened to the Chandler clip. Why would anyone sign their name to something being sent to Chandler, who could potentially broadcast their name to thousands if he didn’t like what they had to say? The “dying church” comment was kind of silly though.
Rebecca Lynn, you go, girl! You did a great job in those comments. The more you refused to be intimidated, the uglier that man got until it should be clear to anyone just what was wrong in your old church.
Anon wrote:
She got her degree to be a therapist, I believe. And she needed time to build her practice. She couldn’t do that and blog at the same time. Too time consuming. She has a family as well.
LawProf wrote:
I would be honoured, my friend!
LawProf wrote:
Thank you so much. I am indeed a dame. And the daughter of a Barrister. And the grand daughter & great grand daughter of High Court Judges. And the great-niece of a woman who was Britain’s youngest Barrister of her day. She died at 24. 24! This abusive man running bleating to the law makes me nauseous. He will however get what’s coming to him.
@ Beakerj:
Pretty impressive.
And btw, I love your name and picture in the corner.
@ Deb:
Thanks!
Beakerj wrote:
And I am a nondescript teacher of the law of corporations at a middling U.S. university’s business school, son of a used car dealer and a bank teller, grandson of a newspaper printer on one side, railroad machinist on the other. Not a college-educated one among the lot of them. Doesn’t quite match up to Beaker’s astonishing blood line. Wow, and I’ll bet you had a few of those luminaries attend Oxford or Cambridge of LSE or insane places like those.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I came to the conclusion very early on when protesting Scientology that the doctrinal approach to determining what is a cult is wrong. You have to look at the behavior. HAVE TO. And the argument I heard that wrong beliefs lead to wrong behavior is, well, WRONG. These cultbusting organizations think (for example and you can fill in the blank here) Unitarians are going to hell for having a deviant theology, but nobody hears about Unitarians being a high-control group.
It’s not the doctrine, it’s the behavior, people. Mark Driscoll is a perfect example. The way he has publicly and in writing treated his wife, Grace, is appalling. His approach to being a pastor is to basically run over anyone who gets in his way. But because he’s doctrinally correct (or so they say), he’s given a pass.
People need to wake up and realise that right doctrine does not mean right behavior!
Bridget wrote:
I think the guy was trying to drum up business and thought a few hundred bucks on a fake story run through “Christian” news outlets would do the trick. Instead, I think Lyall Mercer just shot himself in his foot.
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
With Driscoll, for me it’s both. Or I should say, they were so mixed together I could hardly figure out how to separate them out.
His “doctrine” concerning the Songs is what first floored me. But, his doctrine concerning that book is fueled by his wrong attitudes towards women. His wrong attitude towards women (and men) also fuel his behavior.
I see what you are saying.
Totally get-we will “Know them by their fruit”. And I’m sure there are many places where ‘doctrine’ is okay but behavior is NOT. But for Driscoll, it is sooooo both for me. I just can’t separate them out where he is concerned.
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
If that’s the case, which it well might be (or not), Charisma deleted comments because they’re stirring up too much controversy? If that’s the case, Charisma shot themselves in the foot as well by printing the piece.
The thought of churches hiring PR firms is too much for me to think about 🙁
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
If this is the case, he has displayed himself as not being to bright or on the cutting edge of what it really going on, no matter which side he comes from.
Deb wrote:
I don’t think that’s fair to Matt Chandler
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thought provoking post Nick. (Ya did the male distaff of this blog proud.)
Mara wrote:
Great points here. I also find that, too often, the mainstream Christian’s definition of cult hinges upon numbers rather than behavior; cults are just the small, fringe, or unusual groups. One question I prefer to ask when looking at a group is: How easily can you get in and out? I grew up in the SDA church before moving to a Presbyterian denomination, and while some neocals might term it a cult based on its “doctrines,” I found my experience as an Adventist to be refreshingly un-cult-like…I worshipped Christ, in whom there is no male or female, and even got to preach my first (and only) sermon there at age twelve 🙂
@ LawProf:
They were all impressive I believe…but alas, for most of them (here I speak only of the males), alcohol was their downfall. The other side of my family are working class Dublin (but every bit as smart & loquacious) so I am a genuine mutt, both nationality & class-wise 🙂
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
And why the heck not? He said it and he said it in public. And it was said about someone who cared enough to critique something he said.
Please pray for me, I am really having a hard time. thanks–becky
Seneca "j" Griggs wrote:
I am NOT calling Matt Chandler a Narcissistic Zero. It's just that whenever I hear his name, I always remember what an idiotic statement he made.
Mara wrote:
The thought occurred to me that Lyall Mercer has demonstrated why one might choose not to hire him for PR work.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Hi Becky you don’t know me from a can of paint but I will pray for you. I hope that you have many more safe people to speak with, and that your “support posse” grows daily. Many safe hugs, “Marie2” (We always give safe hugs in my little spiritual support group, lol.)
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Excellent point! This was indeed the problem with SGM.
BTW, some of us don't even believe it is the 'right doctrine' (even some 'Old' Calvinists have a problem with New Calvinism). 😉
@ rebeccalynn:
I’m not very good at praying right now, but I’ll give it a go. Hope you start to feel better very soon.
@ rebeccalynn:
Praying for you Becky. I am really proud of you for standing up for the truth.
singleman wrote:
They probably realize that Driscoll thinks he's better than they are, and anyway; he has a bigger church.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, every time you regale us with the UK football scores it makes me think of the Scots against the English usurpers in the bar fight scene from the film:
Cloud Atlas ===> (smiley face goes here)
@ dee:
Not even I agree with myself 90% of the time. 🙂
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist (ed.)
Bear in mind that Dr Funystan (Hammers) also supports an English fitba' team whilst not being resident in England. And there may be Others.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Sorry – that should be Dr Fundystan… don’t suppose one of the Super-Users could oblige with a correction there?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Done, but I can't link back to Dr. Fundystan's comment. 🙂
__
“Restore Me Oh Lord, for I Trust In Thee!”
hmmm…
Rebecca Lynn ,
HowDee!
…May He restore your soul; May He guidez you in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake – so that even though you walk through the valley of the shadow of dis present mess, fear no evil, for Jesus is with you; May His words comfort you! May He prepare a table before you in the presence of your detractors ; May He anoint your head with oil; Your cup, that He would fill it ta overflow’in!
(sweet)
When you see the whites of the eyes of these bad news bearz and wittness their vitriol and their slander and their nefarious ‘religious’ contraptions (designed to silence) , possibly even a microphone greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the Lord your God, who bought you by His precious blood, will be with You!
(tear)
Pray’in… (still)
His eyes are 4ever upon da lit’l sparrow!
(smiley face goes here)
Blessings!
Sopy
___
Inspiration: “Comfort me, Lord!!!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF4F7TtLgHE
Bonus: “Don’t Rain On My Parade!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTkMQZgQsMI
;~)
—
To our readers; The Next Generation has arrived!!
Janet and I are getting attacked on Twitter by Stephen Altrogge. Oldtimers: he is the son of Mark Alrorgge-a well known SGM pastor. He also blogs with Barnabas Piper. Yep-John’s boy. They are trading on their parental notoriety and appear to have learned their lessons all too well.
Now, Altrogge is “making observations’ with his manly authority. However, this time, they are up against us and we can make it hard to be “humble.”
dee wrote:
Remember this song, Sopy? You have a tremendous song catalogue, I hope I am not interfering with your calling of clever comic relief. I remember this song as a child thinking that people like this did not exist. Hahahaha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8NPPEms54
Oh Lord It’s Hard To Be Humble Submit Correct Lyrics
http://www.metrolyrics.com/oh-lord-its-hard-to-be-humble-lyrics-davis-mac.html
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
when you’re perfect in every way.
I can’t wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
but I’m doing the best that I can.
I used to have a girlfriend
but she just couldn’t compete
with all of these love starved women
who keep clamoring at my feet.
Well I prob’ly could find me another
but I guess they’re all in awe of me.
Who cares, I never get lonesome
cause I treasure my own company.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
when you’re perfect in every way,
I can’t wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
but were doing the best that we can.
I guess you could say I’m a loner,
a cowboy outlaw tough and proud.
I could have lots of friends if I want to
but then I wouldn’t stand out from the crowd.
Some folks say that I’m egotistical.
Hell, I don’t even know what that means.
I guess it has something to do with the way that I
fill out my skin tight blue jeans.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
when you’re perfect in every way,
I can’t wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
We’re doing the best that we can.
We’re doing the best that we can.
Lyall Mercer: “Churches are usually aware of negative mainstream publicity but often ignore the danger of the enemy within”
Interesting phrase used here … ‘the enemy within.’ Whilst it’s a phase that can be used to describe people within a society/organisation who are attempting to destroy it, it also is used frequently more subtly in the context of considering an authoritarian leadership who wishes to label any protest within a society/organisation in an attempt to destroy the protest. e.g. a technique used by totalitarian/ anti-democratic governments.
So the ambiguity here does not sit easily with fair minded people and the choice of words by Lyall Mercer is crude and inflammatory. Not very impressive PR from Lyall Mercer who I imagine would make matters worse for any organisation that took him on, particularly Mar Hill in this instance.
Conclusion: Anybody thinking of hiring Mercer PR? Don’t – it would be a waste of money – it won’t work and will make things worse for you.
@ dee:
Ha!! Altrogge has no interest in pointing out everyone’s “sin.” Just yours. What a crock.
@ Marie2:
Actually, Sopy, can you please use your wordsmith gift to rewrite some or all of that song, so that it fits current events? I’m probably dating myself here, I’m not entirely sure of when the song first came out, but it was fun to listen to growing up in the 70’s.
dee wrote:
With even less wisdom than the previous generation, if that is even possible.
@ rebeccalynn:
Praying for you, Rebecca Lynn.
dee wrote:
On a more serious note, this saddens me a great deal. I have had great admiration for Mark Altrogge, Stephen’s father. He has written some pretty decent worship songs, and I thought did not seek out the limelight while at SGM. Also, I remember Bill Patton at Covenant Fellowship Church giving Mark props for being genuinely humble, and content to live in a relatively small town, pastoring a relatively small church. If I am not giving out the exact right quote, please, someone correct me.
Somewhere the SGM crazy behavior machine must have gotten to Stephen.
This exchange is seriously missing logic, reason, and accountability on his part, because he STARTED it. If Stephen is not pointing out people’s sins of doing these blogs, then just what is HE doing??
Go Janet Mefferd!!!
PS If I am out of turn for posting these tweets, please delete this post, or perhaps present them with better formatting, another time…
Stephen Altrogge @stephenaltrogge 9h
In a sinful world, anyone can build a platform based on criticism. It takes grace to build based on encouragement.
Dee Parsons @wartwatch 4h
@stephenaltrogge @janetmefferd Did Driscoll plagiarize? Should churches adhere to minimal standards of ethics or do hip pastors get a pass?
Stephen Altrogge @stephenaltrogge 3h
@wartwatch @JanetMefferd Trying to hold everyone accountable is a miserable way to live
Janet Mefferd @JanetMefferd 2h
@stephenaltrogge @wartwatch If you think I’ve sinned, show me by Scripture, chapter & verse. Otherwise, go play Pharisee with someone else.
Stephen Altrogge @stephenaltrogge 2h
@JanetMefferd @wartwatch That’s just it. I have no interest in pointing out everyone’s sin. That’s what so ironic about this exchange.
Has someone done the math on how many Pauline verses address rules for leaders vs. those referring to male-female relations?
WHEW! Looks like we finally have a diagnosis for what ails some of us…
It’s Called Post-Traumatic Church Syndrome, and Yes It’s Real
@ dee:
I think young Stephen is probably dealing with the angst of watching dreaded bloggers reveal the evil inner core of his cherished SGM. Reality bites.
Owen Strachan, who looks like a college or grad school kid, alluded to the Danvers statement, which includes the following:
“
An Attorney wrote:
the statement blames “”feminist egalitarianism” for “widespread uncertainty and confusion in our culture regarding the complementary differences between masculinity and femininity.”
That is the problem. They cannot see a difference between feminism and egalitarianism. To them it is one enemy. But it is not. Radical feminism expresses a preference for female leadership and control. Egalitarianism is for equal treatment, equal access, equal respect, equal opportunity, that is no preference for one gender over the other. Equality forever.
Mars Hill “Board of Advisors and Accountablity” wrote:
http://marshill.com/2014/03/07/a-note-from-our-board-of-advisors-accountability
Dave Kraft responded:
So, who is lying?
http://davekraft.squarespace.com/posts/2014/3/8/do-you-swear-to-tell-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-b.html?currentPage=5
An Attorney wrote:
And why is that more evil than a radical preference for male leadership and control?
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Especially female watchbloggers.
Deb wrote:
Good article. It’s a shame there were comments after the article dismissing the idea.
I found a link some months back on another blog about “Religious Trauma Syndrome.” http://journeyfree.org/rts/
Dr. Marlene WInell has counseled people for 20 years whose trauma stems from religious fundamentalism. It’s very real.
___
Victims of religious abuse…
Wartburg Watch: “I just gotta take care of you…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLR_bSzPTiY
“I know you’ve been hurt
By someone else
I can tell by the way
You carry yourself
But if you’ll let me
Here’s what I’ll do
I’ll take care of you
I loved and lost
The same as you
So you see I know
Just what you’ve been through
And if you’ll let me
Here’s what I’ll do
I just got to take care of you
You won’t ever have to worry
You won’t ever have to cry
I’ll be there beside you
To dry your weeping eyes
So darlin’ tell me
That you’ll be true
‘Cause there’s no doubt in my mind
I know what I want to do
And just as sure as
One and one is two
I just got to take care of you
I’ll take care of you
I’ll take care of you.” (1)
🙂
___
(1) “I’ll take care of you” ; Singer: Beth Hart- LyicsWriter: Brook Benton; Copyright: Clyde Otis Music Group
http://www.songlyrics.com/beth-hart/ill-take-care-of-you-lyrics/
;~)
—
@ Sopwith:
Sopy, that was awesome. Thank you for providing that.
An Attorney wrote:
You can always find some lunatic somewhere associating themselves with some belief and then pretend that he or she is representative of the group. I have been a feminist all my life. Feminism is the advocacy of equal rights for women on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. And apparently that is still a radical idea for some. A woman who argues for female supremacy (never heard of anyone but there must be someone out there) is no more representative of feminists than Fred Phelps was of Baptist ministers.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
I didn't read the comments, but I will. PTCS is very real. I doubt those into Biblical Counseling™ would agree.
@ dee:
That’s the entire purpose of Christian Newswire. They want other news media to pick up on the press release people post. That’s why they charge money.
Charisma liked Lyall’s article, that’s why they reposted it. They know that most of Christian Newswire is self-serving garbage. But in this case the garbage suited their purpose.
If you think Lyall’s press release is horrible, you should see some of the others posted at CNW. It’s embarrassing to thinking Christians. (However, every professional Christian marketer uses it.)
I can relate to the way Rob Smith thinks about Dave Kraft’s and his 2 Camps. I’ve felt the same way about the position Brent Detwiler took towards CJ & SGM in many ways.
Janet Mefferd an enemy on the inside? Hmm. Remember how Mark went on the attack during the radio interview, and started in on Janet, insinuating she was having a bad day? This looks like ad hominem of the same nature. Turn it back on the critic or the person asking the question, etc.
And what about “the enemy within” line of thought anyway? How cowardly is that. Go behind the scenes and get someone else to go into battle for you (assuming Driscoll is involved) while you retreat announcing you’re “going off social media the rest of the year? That is so wimpy. Hardly the masculine Christianity John Piper talks about if you ask me. Pathetic!
Plus, welcome to the Realm. As Montesquieu has said, “I can assure you that no kingdom has ever had as many civil wars as the Kingdom of Christ.”
It seems to me bullies and tyrants like Driscoll are the ones especially keen on suppressing any opposition and insisting on unity; unity that’s defined by whatever Mark Driscoll says. Or something like Steven Furticks “vision”. But once you challenge them, suddenly you’re “the hater” or the traitor.
Deb wrote:
What’s PTCS?
p.s. – Duke won’t win the championship this year. -:)
dee wrote:
Well, could this be a corollary to the idea that copying someone else is a form of flattery, ergo if you do something that threatens SGM’s faithful remnant, you must be doing something right? Or he’s thinking that people don’t have the logic and reasoning skills to see that he just might be jealous that a site like TWW could grow as much as it has in 5 yrs, while the SGM universe is shrinking?
@ An Attorney:
That’s true! It almost seems like they are unwilling to see the difference or make that distinction because it serves their purpose to connect egalitarianism with feminism, the latter which they’ve spent years excoriating. Many see the F word and immediately think whatever is connected to it must be horrible, unbiblical and something to be rejected full-stop!
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
Performance Tested Comfort Systems for heat pumps.
@ NC Now:
Let’s tell him it’s Paula’s Toasted Cheese Sandwich as well. 😉
@ NC Now:
Patronizing Talk Concerning the Saints???
But I love Paula’s Toasted Cheese Sandwich…I hear it has a good kick….
This comment reminded me of Patronizing Talk… have had a tough time explaining to people how painful modern praise music can be for me….Instead of a real discussion I feel like I get patronized by someone who wants to shut down my pain, instead of listening to my heart and respecting my humanness.
Ben Vincent • 15 days ago
Ugh. Give me a good traditional service any day over praise worship. Most praise songs are like amateur hour. Poorly written in both words and music, often full of repeats because the person who wrote them can’t even think of more than a line or two. It is the traditions in church that keep me going. Gives me a foundation and a rock to cling to and boost me up in today’s all over the place society.
@ Victorious:
It isn’t. And there is no Biblical support for radical feminism, and very little support, except that that occurs from mis-interpretation and poor exegesis, for male dominance, patriarchy or hierarchy. We have one Lord and one mediator between us and God, and that is Jesus the Christ. We all stand on the same level. Some are called to serve, but not, according to the words of Jesus, none are called to be leaders who lord it over others.
Ok so my last comment probably made little or no sense. On my mobile phone. ..I think I wrecked some formatting.
Maybe because I find S. Altrogge’s writing to be impossibly vague, perhaps so he can claim to not have said anything in the first place. Was he originally directing his comments at TWW? I’m not sure.
But I think he might have some subconscious jealousy of TWW and other like-minded blogs, so he could either try to “Police” discernment blogs, becoming Discernment 2.0, or Discernment^2, depending on this generation’s view of math. He has protested blogs in the past, perhaps to draw attention to himself. What a dilemma. …quietly retiring to do something else, or poorly executing the very actions he is attacking.
@ Victorious: +1, V!
I wanted to say thank you for the prayers. They did help. I am not really sure why I let that troll make me feel so bad. Only that his accusations that my motherhood was questionable or that I knew that my children would be thrown out really broke me for a bit. I think this only goes to show the length our opposition will go to shut people up. Personal attacks will abound as long as you refuse to be silent. Thank you to the ladies at the Wartburg Watch for contacting Mr. Throckmorton on my behalf and having his hateful comments removed. It seems to me that the more of an effect we have on things like this Mark Driscoll mess, the louder and nastier our critics will get. The only way to avoid conflicts is to let them continue to abuse. And that is NOT and option is it? Honestly I believe that troll was someone I know. Someone who may have been directly involved in my situation. If not he is sure willing to go far to try and make my story somehow my fault. I pray that we all continue to watch our leaders and sound off when there is abuse, it is the only way we will change things. When my story began I felt alone. They had one deacon monitor my FB page daily to see what I had posted, as things progressed I was overwhelmed by men telling me how wrong I was, and how evil it was to question my leaders. Then when they could not bully me they went to my husband with threats and called him out as a wimp for letting his wife run him. Anyone who knows my Brian will laugh at that. On all sides the enemy used people to try and tear us down. He is still doing that to a lot of us today. I say GREAT if people are coming at you Deebs, that means they are feeling the effect of your site. They are afraid that the light will shine on them next. Consider it all joy sisters, and keep on writing…..
@ rebeccalynn:
Well said!!
So glad to hear that you are feeling better! !
__
“Humbled Hulk Of Massive Misgivings, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Marie2 ,
“To know da MErkyD is to love him,
He must be a heaven of a preacherman,
Oh Lord it must be so hard to be humble,
Because MErkyD writz letters, and gives talks say’in he’s doin’ da best dat he can….” (1)
🙂
___
Comic relief: ‘ humble bumble’ Guitar Tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Cy2o_Uh1k
(1) Lyrics reflect parody adaptation;
“Oh Lord It`s Hard To Be Humble ”
Lyrics written by Mac Davis; (C) Songpainter Music;
http://www.songlyrics.com/mac-davis/it-s-hard-to-be-humble-lyrics/
All rights Reserved; U.S. Title 17 copyright infringement un-intended.
;~)
—
Mara wrote:
rofl and well said
You know this will sound rather ignorant, no stupid, and I admit it is completely childish but when I first became a “Christian” I became so enthralled that Christ died for me. I was so overwhelmed with joy and hope. 31 years later I really have nothing but shame because I showed emotion, which is basically vile. I find that rather sad, but that is just me, I failed Jesus, and I am reminded of that almost every time I get involved with communities of faith.
molly245 wrote:
thank you molly, that is why i like this blog, if i get caught up in anothers shortcomings and start to lose focus, people like you and the hosts always bring it back to the compassion of Christ Jesus. My only difficulty lately though is that i believe that some of the mars hill church and acts 29 network are operated by people that either once knew Jesus and followed Him but have now turned aside, or by people that never knew Jesus and are only interested in profit. This is to me a grave judgment and distinction and i have been considering it a lot in regards to some of the staff. Your comment brought me back to realizing i must go slow and never rush to judgment about others that i know nothing about. The things said by and the actions of pastor Driscoll i can clearly judge, as the bible instructs us: 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1 Cor 6:3-5 but as i said i am being very careful to not make errors and get carried away by assuming that everyone that works at mars hill is in biblical error. Thank you again for your comment. Thank you dee and deb also for walking that thin line also in judgment of church matters.
Mara wrote:
i read a bit of driscolls books and the excerpts that the news and blogs wrote from his sermons and books and i just could not imagine Jesus standing before me saying anything that came out of Driscolls mouth. Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father don’t say things like that. Using scripture here and there to appear Godly is just a ruse. in the x rated bedroom book driscoll wrote, could anyone picture the Holy Lord Jesus giving you those instructions on how to have relations with your spouse? I believe that the Song of Solomon is an analogy but not a lewd one. Does that make sense? its hard to find words to explain how i feel when i just in my gut know that the words coming from driscolls mouth are not being spoken by the Holy Spirit of God. maybe that’s why so many go to his church, its like you know somethings really wrong but its hard to explain it. i think that is exactly why looking for fruit and how a person acts, especially towards children and women is the best test when we compare it to the bible. Jesus loved the disciples, Jesus loved the women, Jesus loved the children. Jesus would never tell someone to take a child into a hair salon with pornographic photos on the wall….
“The attacks against pastor Mark Driscoll that were started by radio host Janet Mefferd—and are still ongoing—have caused a lot of damage to both Mars Hill and the church at large.
So…I could do bad stuff all I want …but that would not be the cause of my downfall…I could blame my downfall on the person who exposed my bad stuff. Sweet.
Victorious wrote:
ZING OF THE DAY!!!
earnestly contend for the faith.
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Gal 2:3-5
praying that the truth will be known and Jesus servants be strengthened and kept in His peace and that the Lord will give words to speak in defense of the truth and the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Luke 12:11-12 (KJV)
rebeccalynn wrote:
i am very glad you are feeling better, may the Lord Jesus strengthen and comfort you. I quoted what you wrote there because i just read that very kind of thing in a book i was reading. the book is called men who hate women and the women who love them… (its about Misogynists.) by dr susan forward. here is just a little excerpt:
“extreme jealousy and extreme possessiveness always spell danger. If you are subjected to constant accusations, constant watching, spying, interrogation, or overreactions to such minor infractions as being late-be on your guard.” this was written about a woman in an abusive relationship with her spouse…it is incredible to me that a whole church is doing this, can anyone imagine if a boss in the world did this, oh we have to watch your every move on facebook! that is so over the line i cant believe it. becky stand firm in the Truth and way to go having the courage to get out of this distorted controlling “church”.
brian wrote:
Jesus and God have emotions and they aren’t ashamed to show them, they gave us tears and smiles, its how they made us. I am sorry that anyone has made you feel this way.
…they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. Matt 2:10
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad…Matt 5:11-12
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord….Matt 26:22
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. Mark 14:34
35 Jesus wept. John 11:35
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth… Luke 15:7
that’s some emotional stuff there brother! Jesus was not happy when he was clearing the temple. He was and is full of emotions. Just be who He made you to be, a son of God.
thanks to all for letting me have my midnight vent! God bless you all in Jesus
Paula wrote:
I’m gppd both of them, I do prefer toasted cheese over heat pumps however.
Patti wrote:
I see this tactic used by older children & adolescents in my youth projects ALL the time. Occasionally, as you explain that if they hadn’t done whatever it was they’re actually in trouble for then there would have been nothing to expose, you see the penny drop on cause & effect, act & consequence. Some of these guys missed a big step in their thinking. Send them to me for a chat.
@ sam:
I was not zinged. I was explaining why “radical feminism” is not about egalitarianism, or equal treatment, and why the patriarchists should not condemn equality as being driven by what they call “radical feminism”. The definition is theirs, not mine.
@ An Attorney: BTW, I am a radical egalitarian. I have been in favor of equal rights, equal opportunity, equal treatment, etc., and opposed to:
racial or ethnic discrimination and separation since age 10 (late 1950s);
gender based discrimination since age 15 or so (early 1960s); and
partner gender preference since age 30 or so (late 1970s).
And I am a confirmed, happily married, 65+ yo caucasian male, who advocates for universal early childhood education; measures to reduce poverty and the effects of poverty including housing discrimination, hunger, homelessness, etc.; fairness in sentencing and alternatives to incarceration to offset the adverse effects of the criminal “justice” system on minorities; restoration of rights after release from incarceration and re-entry assistance; freedom to marry without gender restrictions; and fairness in the electoral process.
So don’t pull my chain on what some idiots put forth as their reason for opposing equality of service in the church. No Christian has any right to “authority” over any other Christian, period, end of a stupid idea.
An Attorney wrote:
correction: partner gender preference discrimination
An Attorney wrote:
Yes, the definition of radical feminism is theirs and has no basis in reality. As Doug Phillips used to say, he who defines the terms wins. Radical feminism is not advocacy for female supremacy. Telling people that it is is a tactic used to divide women and discredit the movement for women’s equality among men. I keep seeing this in posts by Christian men – feminists hate men, feminists want control, etc. – and it is not true.
Radical feminism developed in the late sixties. This group argued that it would take more than just legal changes designed to stop institutions from discriminating against women (or racial, ethnic, or religious minorities) for equality to be achieved. It would take major cultural changes because society is fundamentally patriarchal.
I never hear anyone besides patriarchal Christians or right wing conservatives talk about radical feminism anymore. Considering that we are fifty years from the birth of modern feminism and we are still arguing about women’s eternal submission to men extending even into Heaven, it would seem that what was once termed radical was correct, we do need cultural change if women are to achieve equality.
An Attorney wrote:
Nice to meet a kindred spirit! I really appreciate your comment!!!!!
An Attorney wrote:
I’m curious why we (radical egalitarians) are not having more influence in churches today with the growing numbers who see the erroneous teachings that only lend credence to a number of male-only ministerial positions.
Any thoughts on this?
@ Victorious:
The other golden rule:
He who owns the gold, makes the rules, perhaps?
Maybe there is a great deal of money and power at stake, and regular radical egalitarians have not yet united with their pocketbooks and wallets, somehow? I would not want to see regular churches suffer financially…..just thinking aloud that money could be a factor here….It would be nice for folks to stop buying these horrible books that enslave women, figuratively and literally.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Just so we’re clear, Rooney’s 50 meter “goal” was preceded by a CLEAR foul and should have been called back. F’n ManU…
@ Victorious:
We should compile some sort of list of churches in our areas that are more egalitarian. I would like to know of some in my area, Montgomery County, Maryland, that are good.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I recorded MotD, so I haven’t seen it yet – will confirm later this evening.
As of 10:00 AM EDT today the Lyall Mercer article is still posted at Charisma News, although it’s no longer the featured story. The article has moved further down the page. Comments are still closed.
I’ll check again after I come home from church. I hope and pray something has been done by then.
__
Toxic Religion: Public Relations Props Now Required?
hmmm…
Exposure of persistent and obvious pastoral ethical violation(s) now equates to “enemy within the camp” ‘brand’ loyalty violation issues. He or she is not demonstrating brand loyalty, therefore is considered a 501(c)3 religious not-for-profit corporate emeny.
Those that expose the 501(c)3 religious not-for-profit corporate ‘darkness’ are now considered ‘evil’.
What?
“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! ” ◄ Isaiah 5:20 ►
The hiring of public relations people to gloss over an obvious breach of ethics behavior by a man of the cloth, no less, is shear moral bankruptcy.
Sow to the wind, reap a whirlwind, huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avszUNRkV8I
(sadface)
Sopy
—
dee wrote:
Do you have any research or lists of church plant failures? I only ask because a couple of months ago my current pastor was talking about church revival and growing the church, and he referenced Mark Driscoll’s A Call to Resurgence. (To a group of only men.). I made a list of all the problems with Driscoll and company, but I never sent it. I must be the only one in These parts that is aware of all the dirty dealings going on in the church at large. It’s been three weeks since I’ve been to church. I don’t know how to bring up these issues without being divisive of the body.
Joy Huff wrote:
CBE International apparently has such a list available for the asking. I’ve not requested it, but you can if you’re interested.
http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/churches
Victorious wrote:
Two words: MONEY TALKS.
A lot of abusive churches and One True Ways are also into TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! Not mentioning lucrative CELEBRITY book deals. All Cash Cows to milk dry for The Cause.
Marsha wrote:
Screwtape said much the same to Wormwood.
An Attorney wrote:
I’ve so appreciated all your comments, but this resonates with my life experience as well. I echo Marsha. Nice to meet a kindred spirit.
Oops… Copied too much of your comment. Meant to include only top five lines. While I’m 65+’ I’m single, female!
Beakerj wrote:
Extreme Predestination also disengages cause & effect, act & consequence. God Willed my fist to lash forward, then God Willed your nose to bleed and hurt. No connection whatsoever. In’shal’lah.
Some 800 years ago, both Christianity and Islam had the problem of reconciling Greek Natural Philosophy with their Holy Scripture. In Western-Rite Christendom, St Thomas Aquinas was able to reconcile the two as human wisdom being a subset of divine wisdom and empirical observable truth a subset of Truth in his Summa Theologica. This set the foundations of Science.
St Thomas’s contemporary Mohammed abu Hamid al-Ghazali, presented with the same problem, came to the opposite conclusion in his Incoherence of the Philosophers. Faith and observable physical reality were impossible to reconcile, and Faith Faith Faith must prevail. Reality cannot be permitted to differ with the Koran, otherwise Al’lah was not Omnipotent. One example cited was when a cloth burns, it is not burning; Al’lah is Willing the cloth out of existence and the flame, smoke, and ash into existence by His Omnipotent Will. No connection whatsoever. Al-Ghazali’s theology became the default in Islam via the chaos of the Mongol Invasions and the patronage of a Caliph who’d usurped the position and needed justification by Divine Right/In’shal’lah.
Look at the fruit of both theologies.
Victorious wrote:
Because in one I Hold the Whip and You Feel the Whip.
It all comes down to “Do I Personally Benefit from this?”
I Hold the Whip, You Feel the Whip = GOOD.
You Hold the Whip, I Feel the Whip = BAAAAAAAD.
There are no other states than these two, and my Y Chromosome and what dangles between my legs gives me the Divine Right to Hold the Whip. WOMAN, SUBMIT!
Marsha wrote:
Take it from the greymuzzle with 20 years in-country in Furry Fandom:
THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH YOU CAN DO TO DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM LOUD CRAZIES WHO PROCLAIM TO EVERYBODY (ESPECIALLY THE MEDIA) THAT THEY’RE ONE OF YOU AND YOU’RE JUST LIKE THEM. Loud Crazies have a way of making themselves THE public face of a movement, and they can always out-publicity and out-scream those of us who have jobs and lives to take time away from 24/7/365 self-promotion.
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
In this, Cult-Watch Christians are no different from the Communists.
Purity of Ideology, Comrade, Purity of Ideology.
And The Revolution is always To The Death, Comrade.
Mara wrote:
See my comment to Marsha two comments above. Freedom4 has a practice and a family (i.e. a job and a life) taking time and energy away from the fight, and the Loud Crazies/True Be-LEEEEE-vers don’t.
@ Victorious:
Thanks, I sent them an email.
An Attorney wrote:
Really? Where did you get this? Please point out to me the ‘radical feminists’ that said this?
Emmaline wrote:
I think the 3 of you well represent the outlook of most TWW commentors.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Which is why I could never ally myself with groups who were taking on Scientology because Scientology is (obviously) not Christian. I didn’t (and still don’t) care about Scientology’s beliefs. It’s Scientology’s ACTIONS which drove my concern. Unsettlingly for me, the further down the rabbit hole I went, the more I learned about allegedly Christian churches doing the same thing as Scientology. Examples: Calvary Chapel trying to shut down a Usenet group because it didn’t want to be discussed publicly (this was about 1996). The lawyers for the Boston Catholic archdiocese using tactics I thought were reserved only to the scuzzy legal representatives of Scientology in fighting against people who had child abuse claims (and this was *prior* to the explosion of 2002). That was early–and the stuff keeps piling up and up. Mark Driscoll’s actions towards his staff and his church are just the latest in a long, distressing series of bad behavior by people who claim to know and love Jesus. *sigh*
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
The sad thing is, it might well be that they do indeed Lovejesus™.
Like Walt Disney undoubtedly loved Mickey Mouse, who ipso facto always did as he was told and was wonderfully marketable.
In other news, you’ll all be delighted to hear that a replica of poet Dylan Thomas’ shed is touring the UK. So it’s not to worry.
@Joy Huff – I could tell you about my experience with my current church which seems to be egalitarian. Dee and Deb have my email if you’re interested.
@ singleman:
Thank you for keeping up with this. I am becoming concerned that there is a concerted effort to buy face time on purportedly Christian media that presents a biased point of view. That view is bought by those with money. Guess who has the money?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m calling this out because it’s a very important observation. I’d even argue that the inward turn Islam took at this time stunted the growth of the sciences in Muslim lands because “Faith, Faith, Faith must prevail.” Granted, Europe had a lot of growing pains because scientific discoveries did not mesh nicely with the prevailing religious sentiment of the day (example: the heliocentric reality of the solar system, which famously got Galileo into so much trouble, while its originator, Copernicus, had been dead for several decades and was thus out of the reach of the Inquisition). We still have those clashes today–evolution versus creationism is only the most obvious one. (I’d also argue there’s a huge anti-science element at work in anti-global warming sentiment.)
Is it too much to say that deliberately failing to come to grips with scientific discovery can only be detrimental to Christianity?
VelvetVoice wrote:
No, and I will tell you why with an example. A few years back, Ed Stetzer, the SBC church planting guru with all the information to do it right planted a church and that church planted a church.
Fast forward to this year. Stetzer is so excited to be planting a new church. Guess what? The previous two churches failed. And further guess what? It is never, ever mentioned.
I bet that SBC seed money went to those plants and is now down the toilet. So, how do we know how many fail? We have to be smart and keep track of them and that is no small task.
Do not forget the series we did on the other ACTS 29 church fail. The drove a once healthy and vibrant church into the ground. And that supposed “church planter” is not teaching others in ACTS 29 how to church plant! Here is a link to the first in the series we did on this epic fail!
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/12/04/is-acts-29-planting-or-decimating-churches/
dee wrote:
To me, the question is, “where did the money come from?” If the organization buying publicity (or a space on the NYTimes bestseller list) is a church, one has to wonder if it comes from tax-exempt monies. And then one has to wonder if this is an appropriate purpose (even if the IRS says it’s OK, it still may be highly inappropriate).
dee wrote:
Reminds me of the ever famous, revered, church planter extraordinaire, Mr. David Harvey himself….Scary how history repeats itself over and over…..
Loosely on the subject of church plants, I’ve come across several successful ones here in the UK that have a common factor: They were all structured around a nucleus of local folk who had recently joined the parent congregation. In other words, the “church plant” was a response to something living that God had been doing, as opposed to someone’s big idea to grow some numbers or spread their own theological fiefdom. (I realise those aren’t the only two possibilities.)
So, you have an established congregation; more often than not, it’s quite traditional – say, Anglican – but in any case there is genuine plural leadership and all believers are priests in fact and not just in doctrine. New people steadily come along, not to hear the celebrity motivational speaker, but because they are invited by friends or neighbours. Eventually, there are enough new people from a particular part of town that it makes sense to free them to meet separately and do something even more relevant locally. Just as importantly, the “main” congregation are willing to let the new plant go instead of lamenting that their cosy church is being divided and it’s so sad because we’re losing this precious unity etc etc.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Here, here! This is wonderful news, and a stark contrast to the well-documented SGM Pittsburgh plant that was spear-headed, and then speared, by Dave H. Not to go over well-trodden ground again, but it’s interesting to me to see the contrast between local resources – people from neighboring towns helping each other, who are connected with the local culture – vs relying on national leaders who quite possibly would fail a basic culture/geography quiz about the region in question.
Hey, slightly off-topic, but I saw this on my FB feed today. 🙂 http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/23/survivor-bloggers-join-forces-to-reveal-christian-fundamentalist-abuses.html
Taylor Joy wrote:
This is a great story and shows the power of connectivity to bring long-buried evils to light. Of course, the powers that be are going to HATE the story because it gives the victims a voice.
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Discernment 2.0, Discernment^2 blogs, coming soon….Or maybe they are already here, in the form of paid PR campaigns????
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort: i think it is a mistake to write off al-Ghaxali wholesale; he was a mystic and his thought was influential in the West, not just in the Muslim world. Though i do wish someone else had come along to counterbalance some of his arguments, the fact remains that many misuse his ideas. (And dont put them in their proper context, either.)
Though i honestly know far less than i would like to re him as wellas other Islamic philosophers…
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort: i think it is a mistake to write off al-Ghazali wholesale; he was a mystic and his thought was influential in the West, not just in the Muslim world. Though i do wish someone else had come along to counterbalance some of his arguments, the fact remains that many misuse his ideas. (And dont put them in their proper context, either.)
Though i honestly know far less than i would like to re him as wellas other Islamic philosophers…
numo wrote:
Nemo, thank you for bringing up this man’s influence. I like this quote a lot. I think that MD could learn some lessons from this man, even if he has completely ignored what Paul said in Galatians 5.
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/5684900.Abu_Hamid_al_Ghazali
“Declare your jihad on thirteen enemies you cannot see -egoism, arrogance, conceit, selfishness, greed, lust, intolerance, anger, lying, cheating, gossiping and slandering. If you can master and destroy them, then you will be ready to fight the enemy you can see.”
― Abu Hamid al-Ghazali
@ Marie2:
Aigh! Sorry, NUMO! Many apologies to spell your name wrong there….And oops on the pronoun ambiguity. I think that MD has had trouble putting many good Biblical lessons into practice, including Paul’s admonitions here:
Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
@ Victorious:
Because of 1800 years of patriarchy in the church and nailed in misinterpretations of the best available early documents by those invested in patriarchy — that is very hard to overcome. I have been in a church in which the senior preacher was a woman. There were other problems in that church that, over time, made her the last year or so of her stay there less productive than it could have been. She was hired away by another congregation and it is doing well by all accounts (except those in patriachist media).
An important piece in the comments on Warren Throckmorton’s blog. It is copied from Luke Abrams, who led worship with Team Strike Force (1997-2008) for Mars Hill. He talks about how he has changed his views on Mars Hill since moving to the UK in March 2013, and is for the initiatives for mediation with former MH staff, and to peacefully evacuate Mars Hill.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/21/former-mars-hill-pastor-dave-kraft-explains-charges-against-mark-driscoll/#comment-1297834541
@ nmgirl:
Please see my earlier reply on this. That is not my position. It is the position of CBMW and patriarchists. I was explaining why they think egalitarianism is radical feminism, as they define the latter.
@ Sopwith:
Thank you sopy I just saw this and was really blessed by it…praying all of god’s best for you.
@ An Attorney:
Thanks AA. i suspect that the fact I exist is an anathema to them (almost 60, never married, no kids, advanced degrees, business owner, pants and shorts wearing))
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Adams is exactly right. Since Driscoll is not accountable to the members, the only way for them to bring about change is to stop contributing, stop attending, and stop volunteering.
Has anyone else noticed the sad and similar M.O. deployed by Mark Driscoll’s friend and accountability partner and equally disqualified teacher? James MacDonald/Harvest hired it’s own consultant and hosted a one sided “peace making” process that ended up saying that the enemy within consisted of former leaders and members and a certain website. (Faux) apologies, promises (with a wink) of accountability, and pledges (broken) to spend more time with the church body. But what is really intended in all the PR branding, is a growth of their own kingdom and idolatry of their own ministry.
nmgirl wrote:
Hehehe, there is more than one of me out there (although I work for a huge financial institution and not my own business)!
@ Marie2: no worries! I really like that quote, though it was HUG and mirele who started the discussion on him – i cant take credit for it. 🙂
@ Marie2: the "greater jihad" (described in the quote) is internal. It is the struggle against exactly what he talks about, and is meant to be far more central/important than anything in the way of militant action.
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort: yep! There are a number of us her.
@ mirele:
No. I’m witnessing this in my own circles right now. Last week my friend’s mom asked her if I was a Christian, partly because she discovered that my mom and I accept evolution/an old earth.
And the next Big Box is up:
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/hospitality-the-biblical-commands-tbb/
@ Marsha:
Plus, the greater the number of highly specific accounts like Luke’s that show document both his observations and his thinking process, the more it gives a how-to lesson on discernment for those who don’t yet understand how to do that. The comment was very helpful.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
never did I imagine that a church instead would have “non compete” clauses in their contracts with pastors/parishoners! its like them saying the church is a business, and it wants to prevent others from forming their own churches, its like telling others they cannot preach the Gospel… flabbergasted 🙁
An Attorney wrote:
I wasn’t “Zinging” you sir, I was ZING on the poster bringing clarity that a person that is total woman control is the same sin as a person that is total man control. I like your comment in another post saying something about how having authority over anyone is wrong.
sam wrote:
Or Madame
@ nmgirl:
I’m another one of those, too.
@ sam:
If you read the comments from today, you will learn a bit more about me. In most browsers, you can search within the comments on a post for “An Attorney” and find my comments. BTW, I have been an egalitarian on race and gender for more years than most commenters here have been alive, but it took me a bit longer to get there on partner gender preference issues.
Marie2 wrote:
Hey, isn’t all that stuff in the Bible too? OOPS! Silly me, if it ain’t said in the Bible, it can’t be ‘biblical’, especially if it comes from a muzzlim.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Update on that update, which I should have noted earlier – my apologies. Anyway, Warren Throckmorton says he’d like to post the comment that was apparently cut-and-pasted from something Luke Abrams wrote, but needs to verify that Luke indeed did write it.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/21/former-mars-hill-pastor-dave-kraft-explains-charges-against-mark-driscoll/#comment-1298248799
This is good. It’s a indicator of an ethical researcher who earns entrustment … and in light of all the recent issues of mediocrity in media, perhaps I’d say it’s double-plus good. But HUG might rail against the ironic orwellian reference. (Hi HUG.)
Hester wrote:
Ok, so now I’m going to bring this up. It’s from Ken Ham’s outfit, Answers in Genesis, and is in response to the announcement of evidence for cosmic inflation. I will be the first to admit this discovery is difficult to understand. I don’t have the math and physics background, so I have to trust people (like my boyfriend, who does have the background) to tell me, “yes, this makes sense to me.
But that’s not the problem at AiG. The problem is that they absolutely cannot and will not accept any evidence that “contradicts” the Bible. And I quote:
“Furthermore, we know from Genesis 1 that God made the earth before He made the stars, but the big bang requires that many stars existed for billions of years before the earth did. So how do we respond to this announcement?”
And just so you know I.am.not.making.this.up, it’s from here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2014/03/17/has-cosmic-inflation-been-proved
Seriously, I nearly did about 80 *headdesks* when I read this today. I’m serious, “How can we even talk to you if you can’t even take a look at the evidence?” This is crazycakes. And that’s all I can say on this because I keep shaking my head back and forth over and over again and I’m going to rattle the gray matter in between my ears to death if I don’t stop. Can’t Australia take Ken Ham back? Please?
@ sam:
That was nice Sam but on my eternal soul, if I even have one, which was questioned several times in the “family”. Emotion outside the apologetic, I E where it serves some political / economic issue are not what the faith industry wants. I am still trying to get past the idea that God hates my immortal soul, I never quite understood that, but it is a pivotal part of my Christian experience. Thank You for your kindness.
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
Please excuse me but Answers in Genesis is not a credible source for information on science, we dont live in a young earth/ universe I E less than 10,000 year old universe. That cant be true, it cant or what we base our modern world on cant happen but because all the science works we sort of have a problem. Goodness I find this frustrating I really do.
Time for a new thread.
This one’s been hijacked by “Young Earth” vs. “Old Earth” “Ken Hamm Spam”.
Brian: “Goodness I find this frustrating I really do.”
Me too, but for different reasons.
@ An Attorney:
Mmm, no, although the words seem to mean what you explained, feminism actually means egalitarianism in society.
I have no problem with those two words together, since they mean roughly the same thing (although egalitarianism in the church is usually describing marriage and leadership roles only, feminism is describing all aspects of society that tips the scales against women).
I do have a problem with Strachan’s “widespread uncertainty and confusion in our culture regarding the complementary differences between masculinity and femininity.”
Really Strachan? in our culture? So, which cultures have it all correct? In India, women are considered the rational ones, men are prone to passion and excess. In China, women are considered more authoritative and, therefore, are the main news anchors.
The whole problem with their assessments are, they have no idea what makes men and women different. If they ever read outside their little bubble, they would see that the slight differences between genders globally have nothing to do with complimentary roles. There is some evidence of men’s spatial abilities, but minuscule and some of women’s linguistic pre-frontal development being more advanced, but only slightly.
So, um, men complement women by being able to assume what is happening on the opposite side of a 3-D object to the visible side, and women complement men by talking slightly sooner while they are developing – yeah, that sure shows how we are just so complimentary for each other /sarcastic font off.
Somehow, I don’t think those global differences will fill their journals up.
__
Rebecca Lynn ,
Your Welcome!
Our Lord loves justice and never forsakes His godly ones, even though it might lõõk like it sometimes. No matter how crazy itz gonna get, God will never stop preserving His kids 4 alwayz.
Please take hope in that,
ATB
Sopy
__
Inspiration: Steven Curtis Chapman “Love Take Me Over…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn5mi5G9RQY
—
@ TedS.: A new post will be coming soon…
Eagle wrote:
Agreed. I’ve been calling him a sociopath for quite some time now.
@ mirele:
Funny you brought that up, because when my friend was telling me what her mom said, she said out of frustration, “Didn’t they just, like, prove the Big Bang or something?!” 🙂
In other news, here is a Deebs-friendly story:
Couple marry after guide dogs “fell in love”
zooey111 wrote:
Is this “sidewalk psychology?”
@ Val:
You appear not to have read my other replies to people thinking that I was making that point as if it were my belief, but I was stating the problem with CBMW’s position on egalitarianism being radical feminism AS THEY DEFINE IT, which is that rad fem wants to invert their hierarchy, not create equality.
In case anybody has not figured it out yet, I am a classic textbook case of the ISTJ personality type. Analytical pragmatic realism. It is what it is. Keep that in mind when you read the following.
Ummm, there are quite a few biological differences between male and female in our species. Some of these are differences in degree of expression, some are differences in percentage in the population, and some of these are showing up in the functional images of he brain that the neuroscience researchers are now demonstrating. We won’t know for a while what all the current research will eventually demonstrate before the rate of new findings slows down, but until then it does no good to think that this is not going on in medical/scientific research.
There is no need at this point for somebody to say “prove it” because the information is extensive and whoever is adequately motivated to look at the evidence can easily be reading for the next several weeks, at a minimum, in this area.
Now think about this: if this is so, and viewed from an evolutionary standpoint, then this has or has had some positive value for species survival, since the trait has persisted in the species. On the other hand, if looked at from the religious viewpoint seeing God as creator, then this exists for some reason, and survival is one possible reason regardless of any other allegorical theories which may be postulated.
The best thing to do is to say that maleness and femaleness are both good and necessary, and that we do not yet have a complete idea of what maleness and femaleness actually are, but we are on the way to getting more information on the subject. And, may I say this straight out: it is not best to have too many strongly held opinions in either direction on this subject unless and until there is objective (and I would say scientific) evidence to back up those opinions . Tis too and tis not is not good argumentation.
Bill Smith comment quoting Luke Abrams “confession” in comment section of Warren Throckmorten: “(2) I lived out and defended the early MH years teaching about marriage, which was domineering and forceful leadership,”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/21/former-mars-hill-pastor-dave-kraft-explains-charges-against-mark-driscoll/#comment-1297834541
Throckmorton is working to verify if this is truly from Luke Abrams.
We knew this, though.
We could see it in the way Driscoll treats Grace and the way that Grace is only a shell of the person she could be under his domineering, forceful leadership.
And Hate Week in Oceania continues.
DOWN WITH THE ENEMY WITHIN THE PARTY JANET MEFFERD GOLESTEINIST!
GLORY TO LOYAL PARTY MEMBER COMRADE MERCER!
http://youtu.be/oD_Bdq1MLWg?t=1m20s
Nancy wrote:
Yes it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
What a sweet story! Thanks for sharing it. My Monday is now off to a great start!
J Crane wrote:
Yes, we have. That is why we find it amusing, in a sad sort of way, that MacDonald is an “accountability ” partner. I thin he is more of “Sharing accounting tips” partner.
@ J Crane:
Did you ever see Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald 'on a bus'? I just don't understand the appeal…
brian wrote:
That makes me so sad. I missed some of this conversation yesterday when I spent much of the evening and early morning in the ER with my stepfather. He was severely dehydrated and confused but is doing well.
God does not hate your immortal soul. He loves you dearly and that is why he created you to be immortal-a trait that we share with him. I am so sad that the current trend in theology is to present a God of wrath without context.
Oh, he gets mad at us alright. He hates human slavery, poverty, exploitation of others, theological arrogance whose sole purpose is to tell others how wrong others are and how right they themselves are.
Please know that I prayed for you this morning.
For what it’s worth, Charisma appears to have doubled down on the Mercer article since it was featured under “U.S. news” in Charisma’s morning email newsletter. I guess the money must be good for running puff pieces, no?
@ Mara:
I gotta tell you all, Deb and I relieved that others are finally saying what the two of us outsiders have observed about Mars Hill for years. We have been called all sorts of names for our stand on this. We have been derided by the “seminary” crowd who let us know in no uncertain terms that we were wrong and they were, of course, right about Driscoll. We were wrong because we were nobodies and female on top of that and they were write because they were “authoritative” and men.
We have been slogging in the trenches for years. God sent us all a gift in Warren Throckmorton and James Duncan who have added their particular skills to drive the conversation forward. I still remember our first email from Warren which inquired about the “I see Things” video. He asked a simple question. “Did he ever apologize for this video?” You know the answer to that. And so it began.
We had featured Dr Duncan’s story about his despicable treatment at the hands of Newspring Church. It was one of the worst stories of abuse outside of pedophilia that we had ever read. That was out first contact. Quite awhile later, he started to look at the evangelical crowd through the eyes of his expertise in communications. We couldn’t believe how excellent his posts were and started featuring them. And then the Furtick thing blew up, followed by Driscoll and his expertise was clearly seen.
The Deebs are so grateful for the two of these men. And, we also learned an important lesson-two women who lived quiet lives can have as much truth to say as any dang seminary president or professor and can get it right. So do not let the theological arrogants tell you they know more than you do. It was those guys who supported men like Driscoll, Mahaney and others and still do.
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
I have been following the argument and have to smile. The discovery says more for the Biblical narrative than a rigid adherence to the AIG POV. I might do a post on this in the near future.
I just checked the Charisma News site. The Lyall Mercer article is still there but has been moved to the bottom of the page. Apparently they’ve chosen to quietly rotate the article out of sight rather than removing it altogether and apologizing.
Has anyone written Charisma and received a reply? I wrote them once before concerning an unrelated matter and I never heard back.
@ mirele:
Warren Throckmorton is going for the jugular in this one. This is exposing Charisma.I believe that we can no longer trust ANY information coming from this organization. They have played games with the byline, they have “driscolllized” comments, and continued to feature the puff piece by Lyall Mercer.
The question is why? Are they trading on the dust up? Or do they have some sort of obligation to Mercer or others? As always-follow the money.
My antenna is now raised and I think this story may be the tip of the iceberg.
Dr Throckmorton’s post:
Why is Charisma News Claiming Credit for an Article About Mark Driscoll Authored by Lyall Mercer?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/23/charismanews/
@ singleman:
Look at the above comment to mirele. Dr Throckmorton has written a concise post about the serious problems with Charisma’s response.
Why is Charisma News Claiming Credit for an Article About Mark Driscoll Authored by Lyall Mercer?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/23/charismanews/
TWW now questions the motives behind their response. Christian News Service responded appropriately. Charisma is obstinate. They “driscollized” the comments and left the post up.
I am trying to figure this out. Why? Are they trading on the dustup(it can’t be that great) or do they have some undeclared obligation to the Mercer PR firm? Unless this is settled in an open manner, I will no longer trust any news story posted on that site.
dee wrote:
And just think how I feel.
I was sounding the alarm before I met the two of you.
And there were precious few agreeing with me then.
It was such a relief to find you two.
At least I wasn’t the only unsubmissive, discernment jezebel out there rattling the cages of the ever-important, pompous, pop-Christian-culture elephants.
Now, it is real easy for me to step back and let Throckmorton, former MH pastors, and members bring to light all that we KNEW was wrong with the MD picture.
@ dee:
I just checked again and the article has rotated off the Charisma News site as new articles have been added. However, the link you provide at the top of the page still works, so the article hasn’t been pulled.
I’m extremely disappointed in Charisma. Former editor Lee Grady’s weekly “Fire In My Bones” column is one of my regular reads, and I like him because he’s a charismatic willing to call out the excesses in the movement. For example, he made some good suggestions concerning Christian TV after controversial TBN founder Paul Crouch died a few months ago. I don’t know whether Grady would ever discuss Mark Driscoll. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve never heard Driscoll described as a charismatic.
@ Nancy:
No matter the biological differences, it is no reason to treat one of God’s children differently than another because of gender or race, or to deny them the opportunity to serve in any way that God has prepared them and called them.
@ Nancy:
I’m with you on this point, Nancy. There’s good evidence in varied areas of study to show that there are broad, generic differences between men and women. These differences are wider and deeper than just “men can’t have babies” (the evidence for that is overwhelming) but they almost certainly accompany this fact.
In Lesley’s and my experience here in the UK, church congregations and so-called “para-church” ministries that are run or numerically dominated by women are more likely to focus on providing safe, nurturing environments. When these settings are badly lacking in spiritual maturity, they can be suffocating “wombs” in which the only discernible priority is to create contented, sleeping babies. There are usually lots of unwritten rules and the leadership is often covert. But the causes of this are complex, and can’t just be put down to “women in leadership”. Lesley is a woman, and she hates these places as much as I do. Moreover, they also attract some men. The likes of Fiscal would call them “chickified”. It’s true that men in these settings are often trying, IMHO, too hard to be “vulnerable” and emotional, but they are not chickified.
Bear with me a moment while I run the other way with Lesley’s and my experience here in Blighty. Christian groups run or dominated by men are, ceteris paribus, more likely to be functional and goal-driven. These, too, may sometimes be badly lacking in spiritual maturity. When that happens, they tend to resemble a group of boys playing soldiers, with over-earnest arguments about rules, and/or everyone wanting vociferously to be in charge or tell at least one other person what to do. But not always; they may also be hallmarked by good relationships and worthwhile goals, and more often than not they would be considered egalitarian. And they also attract women.
A broad, generic difference is just that: broad, and generic. There is no reason to apply it, by hook or by crook, narrowly and specifically to individuals. In every ethnic group for which data is widely available, for instance, men are around 5 inches taller than women on average. But obviously, in every ethnic group, there are tall women and short men. It would be asinine to give, say, a small-sized mountain bike to a tall woman on the grounds that You’re a woman and women are shorter. Likewise, when the Holy Spirit has plainly anointed a woman to envision, lead and teach, it is silly to constrain that gift based on tiny fragments of scripture for what amount to ceremonial reasons.
@ An Attorney:
You posted while I was composing… but I’m with you as well.
I hope this is helpful.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
That is so great!
The Lyall Mercer article is back on the Charisma News page. Perhaps they’re rotating articles near the bottom of the page. Comments remain closed. I probably won’t be able to check the site again before I leave for my second shift job, where I have no computer access.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Unrelated to Monty Python *, a big night for both our teams on Wednesday. The Hammers have an important 6-pointer against Hull, whereas the Pool have an equally important chance to close the gap on Chelsea and maintain the pressure on City (regardless of what happens in the Manchester derby tomorrow – ideally a draw!). Sunderland are the kind of team we’ve been dropping points against in the past.
* I shall… WELEASE WOGER!!!
Sorry for length here.
This poem was presented in church last week.
It reminds me of the Deebs and the people who have been posting here recently.
from http://newengland.cbmc.com/WeeklyDevotional/Devo_Archive/60.aspx
I STAND BY THE DOOR
An Apologia for My Life – by Samuel Moor Shoemaker
I stand by the door.
I neither go too far in, nor stay too far out,
The door is the most important door in the world-
It is the door through which people walk when they find God.
There’s no use my going way inside, and staying there,
When so many are still outside and they, as much as I,
Crave to know where the door is.
And all that so many ever find
Is only the wall where a door ought to be.
They creep along the wall like blind people,
With outstretched, groping hands.
Feeling for a door, knowing there must be a door,
Yet they never find it …
So I stand by the door.
The most tremendous thing in the world
Is for people to find that door–the door to God.
The most important thing any person can do
Is to take hold of one of those blind, groping hands,
And put it on the latch–the latch that only clicks
And opens to the person’s own touch.
People die outside that door, as starving beggars die
On cold nights in cruel cities in the dead of winter—
Die for want of what is within their grasp.
They live, on the other side of it–live because they have not found it.
Nothing else matters compared to helping them find it,
And open it, and walk in, and find Him …
So I stand by the door.
Go in, great saints, go all the way in–
Go way down into the cavernous cellars,
And way up into the spacious attics–
It is a vast roomy house, this house where God is.
Go into the deepest of hidden casements,
Of withdrawal, of silence, of sainthood.
Some must inhabit those inner rooms.
And know the depths and heights of God,
And call outside to the rest of us how wonderful it is.
Sometimes I take a deeper look in,
Sometimes venture in a little farther;
But my place seems closer to the opening …
So I stand by the door.
There is another reason why I stand there.
Some people get part way in and become afraid
Lest God and the zeal of His house devour them
For God is so very great, and asks all of us.
And these people feel a cosmic claustrophobia,
And want to get out. “Let me out!” they cry,
And the people way inside only terrify, them more.
Somebody must be by the door to tell them that they are spoiled
For the old life, they have seen too much:
Once taste God, and nothing but God will do any more.
Somebody must be watching for the frightened
Who seek to sneak out just where they came in,
To tell them how much better it is inside.
The people too far in do not see how near these are
To leaving–preoccupied with the wonder of it all.
Somebody must watch for those who have entered the door,
But would like to run away. So for them, too,
I stand by the door.
I admire the people who go way in.
But I wish they would not forget how it was
Before they got in. Then they would be able to help
The people who have not, yet even found the door,
Or the people who want to run away again from God,
You can go in too deeply, and stay in too long,
And forget the people outside the door.
As for me, I shall take my old accustomed place,
Near enough to God to hear Him, and know He is there,
But not so far from people as not to hear them,
And remember they are there, too.
Where? Outside the door–
Thousands of them, millions of them.
But–more important for me–
One of them, two of them, ten of them,
Whose hands I am intended to put on the latch.
So I shall stand by the door and wait
For those who seek it.
“I had rather be a door-keeper …”
So I stand by the door.
Sam Shoemaker, founder of Faith At Work at Calvary Episcopal Church in New York City in 1926, was also one of the spiritual leaders who helped draft the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.
@ Deb:
Yes, that was one of those “I saw this and thought of you” moments.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I think men and women are more similar than different and am not keen on the “Men are from mars, women are from Venus” pop psychology stuff that is common in American culture.
Focusing on the differences and blowing them up is in part why so many churches feel fine in marginalizing women and limiting a woman’s value to only being a nurturing, caring, wife and mommy.
I’m a woman who is not married and am not terribly interested in being nurturing and being around babies and children (nor am I particularly musical, don’t want to play the harp or sing in a choir). Ergo, there is next to nothing left for me to do in most evangelical churches.
My talents and skills, what they are, are not used, even when I volunteer them at a few churches I have visited.
I’d first like to ask for prayers for all those who have been killed or injured in the mudslide here in Washington state. Today is sunny, tomorrow the rain is suppose to start back up again for the week.
Next… imagine if Mark Driscoll created an apology such as this: http://sinrepentancegraceforgivness.blogspot.com/ This is from Kyle Firstenberg, posted today.
@ An Attorney:
Oh, sorry, their definition (rolls eyes), of course it wouldn’t have anything to do with reality. And, I suppose, the only definition they have is radical feminism (overthrowing men), they just can’t conceive of normal feminism (equality for both genders). Funny how it always boils down to who is in charge/has power and control. They know nothing of consensus, each person sacrificing for the good of the team/marriage/group. Sad that they cannot conceive of loving Christians working together equally.
@ JadedOne:
Such a very sad situation. I hope they can save more people! It sounds so awful, people calling for help that couldn’t be reached.
@ Nancy:
Not sure if you are reply to my earlier comments, but if you are, my criteria for my assessment of gender differences is:
Science is never completely conclusive, or it wouldn’t be science; however, worldwide studies are far more expensive and complex then an in-depth study solely focusing on the US or western countries (usually the easiest to examine as researchers can team up and get grants from several countries to do a broader study).
So, of the few worldwide studies, and some of them have gone to isolated tribal communities in both S.E. Asia and S. America as well as other unique, often isolated, groups around the world, those studies are not showing strong gender preferences for traditional (read older studies) views of gender differences. Assertiveness, and analytical thinking gender stereotypes disappear in matriarchal societies, for example.
The only *consistent* differences in gender were along spatial reasoning and linguistic acquisition, in ALL societies across all cultures and socio economic status.
Studies that have drawn stronger evidence for gender differences were not worldwide, solely western and often not descriptive of all socioeconomic classes. That says volumes. As Christians, we are to be globally minded, not just middle-class western minded. When we are called into all areas of the earth, it pays to be educated correctly about what one may encounter. For example, a particular matriarchal society in remote Indonesia showed that men were as nurturing as women, since raising children had always been done by the larger family group. Both men and women were raised to equally balance childminding, as a result the nurturing mother view didn’t exist in their society. This shows that even things that appear to have a strong biological connection (mothers give birth, so they need nurturing instincts to parent) don’t show up consistently around the world (there were other examples, but I am just illustrating one).
Up until 150,000 years ago, hominids didn’t practice strict divisions of labour, so our biological past for gender distinction is divided into more recent and longer past. In the longer past, hunting and gathering were essential, and everyone participated equally. Some cultures today have divided up labour, but go ahead and try and find a pattern in that. In some cultures only men hunted, in others only men fished, in other cultures, men hunted, and only women fished. Still others, men and women equally hunted and fished. This is First Nations groups in pre-European North America only. So, it isn’t like we have thousands of generations of only men fishing or only women fishing, it varies, that variance would preclude genetic difference from forming.
In modern societies, division of labour was far more environmentally determined, then gender determined. Inuit men hunted polar bears, sure, but that was often, not always, but often, rite of passage activities, not survival activities. If we go to survival activities, then we see women did hunt, often with the men.
So, no, looking broadly (across time and space), we just don’t see distinct gender divisions in capabilities that more restricted (western, middle class) studies find so easily. It is important to keep that in mind, because every society chooses how to divvy up the gender tasks, and to impose western divisions on others is imperialistic.
@ Val:
I am a 65+ yo hetero male very happily married 35 years to a fantastic woman who seems to admire me greatly — we are a mutual admiration society. I say that because there are reasons why I do not call myself a feminist, but rather an egalitarian (spouse calls me a free radical, which is a chemistry term for a very active molecule). First, there are issues not related to gender about which I advocate equal treatment. These include race, ethnicity, country of origin, religion, partner gender preference, and age (with a distinction for those below 18 or 21). So my egalitarianism encompasses the goal of equal treatment of women, and to that extent I could be called a feminist, but that is a very small part of what I advocate, and that label is too restrictive. Second, there are a large number of people who mis-perceive what feminism means, that is, what the goal of feminism is, but who are willing to consider equal treatment under a different label. So it is a matter of acting or taking the time to educate to overcome the preconceived notions people have about a term of political art.
BTW, my egalitarianism includes equal access and treatment for the disabled — making places and jobs accessible to the extent physically possible, and perhaps even creating job opportunities that use the abilities that the disadvantaged have.
JadedOne wrote:
praying
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Why? What have you got against the poor Australians? 😉
JadedOne wrote:
Praying for those affected. Just saw the coverage on the news.
Jenny wrote:
Just as Justin Bieber belongs to Canada, Ken Ham belongs to Australia. 🙂
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Take ’em back! Take ’em back.
We have enough ‘issues’ of out own. We don’t need any imported wackiness in addition!
😉
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Q. “Is Mars Hill Executive Pastor Mark Driscoll Preaching ‘Real Depravity’, Perhaps?”
huh…
Q. Has Mars Hill Executive Pastor Mark Driscoll become a false religious 501(c)3 non-profit teacher who promotes sexual lasciviousness in the church pulpit?
Q. Has he used his 501(c) not-for-profit ministry to turn the grace of God into lewdness? (Jude 4).
Q. Doesn’t the apostle Peter (in the New Testament) warn of those who with deceptive words bringing in destructive heresies that appeal to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness? (2 Peter 2.10). ”
Q. Is ‘Real Marriage’ a confirmation of that type of sexual depravity that Mark Driscoll has bern promoting among God’s holy people?
What?
Q: Is Mars Hill Executive Pastor Mark Driscoll encouraging other Christians to entertain behavior * that should never even be mentioned among God’s people; – that puts those that entertain such things, in dire violation of scripture:”Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defies the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are”? (1 Corinthians 6.16-17)
Q. Where does God’s ‘holiness’ really draw the line? How far is too far?
hmmm…
Sopy
___
* Reference: ~Dr ES Williams: “Real Depravity”
http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?page_id=610
—
@ An Attorney:
I agree, there needs to be an all inclusive term that encompasses women’s rights in the broader context – I think the word ‘egalitarian’ would work, but it never seems to be applied that way in the church.
Sopwith wrote:
Quote from linked article: “Mark Driscoll is a false teacher who has been promoting sexual lasciviousness in the church for two decades.” And they relate him to the false teacher, Balaam.
I wonder if anyone is willing to go so far as to say that he has a Jezebel spirit.
Revelation 2:20 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
People are saying a lot of things about Driscoll, liar, bully, false teacher.
But will anyone use the term “Jezebel” to describe how he led couples headlong into fornication saying it’s okay cause their married?
Off Topic
Here’s an interesting article about child abuse in the ABWE and how it ties to Michael Loftis, former president of ABWE and current trustee and board member at conservative Christian Cedarville University in Ohio.
http://diannaeanderson.net/blog/2014/3/rape-culture-and-protecting-their-own-questions-of-cedarville-abwe-and-christian-culture
“This is important background for discussing how Christian culture creates its own Paternos, and handles them in ways worse than what Penn State did. The Paterno in our situation is Michael Loftis, former president of ABWE and current trustee and board member at conservative Christian Cedarville University in Ohio. In 2001, over a decade after the Ketcham’s termination from ABWE, Loftis was made president of the organization…
In 2002, a few months into Loftis’ tenure as president, several adult women came forward to urge ABWE to conduct an investigation into multiple cases of sexual abuse of missionary children that happened during the 80s and 90s. These women alleged that Ketcham was not the only abuser in the organization and that several other missionaries had conducted predatory and abusive relationships with young, female missionary kids (MKs) throughout their tenure with ABWE.
Loftis promised that an investigation would happen, and according to ABWE, one was opened. But that investigation went nowhere. Like Paterno, Loftis assumed that he had done enough to placate the complainants and continued his work as president. Despite urging throughout the 00s and up until 2009, Loftis seems to have been unconcerned with assuring that an investigation would continue or that these women would find some form of justice.
To continue the dog-related sidetrack, this cake with some lovely saint and her three pugs wouldn’t be for the Deebs, now would it? 😉
http://www.cakewrecks.com/home/2014/3/24/bill-of-wrongs.html
When I saw this I immediately bust out laughing more than I probably should have.
@ Hester: that’s Mary, i believe, given the stars andblue cloak (both standard in RC iconography/depictions of her). And that is one weird cake!
@ Emmaline:
Thanks for the info.
numo wrote:
Yeah, that’s St Mary walking those pugs on top of the cake.
(I can’t believe I just said that…)
Marie2 wrote:
Sorry for reporting the poem. I was just going to quote the first line and say how the wonderful the poem is when my cell phone went crazy. Anyway, thank you so much, Marie!
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Q. Shouldn’t Mars Hill Executive Pastor Mark Driscoll’s ministry cause grave concern to true, discerning Christian believers?
—
Mara wrote:
Que? Don’t you mean ‘pornication’?
I feel very uncomfortable with labelling someone with a “Jezebel spirit”. It was used in the AoG church I used to attend against those who didn’t toe the line. It sits in similar territory with the words “gossiper” and “bitter” – right up there as Christianese shaming words. I avoid them. However I’m conflicted in how to process what’s happening in Driscoll-land at the moment. Yes, you reap what you sow, but it’s not pretty to watch. I feel sorrow for him.
__
“In Mars Hill Executive Pastor Mark Driscoll”s Christian World, No ‘holes’ Are Barred?”
hmmm…
Q. Has encouraging accountability among 501(c)3 not-for-profit Christian leaders, simply become a lost cause, perhaps?
Q. Doth [their] ‘Orthodoxy’ now covereth a multitude of inconvenient truth(s)?
Q. There really isn’t any point to following the words of Jesus found in the bible any more?
Q. There really isn’t any point to following the pattern of a Christian church, as found in the bible New Testament any more?
*
“Denny Burk, Associate Professor of Biblical Studies at Boyce College, writes that in chapter 10 (ed. Mark Driscoll “Real Marriage”) the Driscolls gives an ethical assessment of a variety of sexual activities by invoking (ed. utilizing as a proof, a condoning the expediently of certain questionable behavior) 1 Corinthians 6:12,
‘All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything’
as the basis for their evaluation?
Denny Burk writes:
‘Among the activities that the authors deem permissible within this taxonomy are masturbation, felatio/cunnilingus, sodomy (on both spouses), menstrual sex, role-playing, sex toys, birth control, cosmetic surgery, cybersex, and sexual medication.
“The Driscolls are careful to stipulate that these are activities spouses may participate in by mutual agreement, but not that they must participate in (p. 180). No spouse should be manipulated into doing anything that violates his or her conscience (p. 178)…
Yet the Driscolls give explicit instructions to wives about how they might sodomize their husbands in a pleasurable way (p. 188).
Yet where in the Bible is such an activity ever commended?” ~Dr ES Williams: “Real Depravity” * (1)
hmmm…
Welcome to the new Neo-Calvinist paradigm for acceptable Christian behavior?
(sadface)
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Who knew?
Sopy
___
* (1) Reference(s): ~Dr ES Williams: “Real Depravity”
http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?page_id=610
http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/
—
Sopwith wrote:
I’m afraid you are right. There is so much of what they teach that could be described in perfectly correct terminology which would nevertheless get me banned from TWW for life. Here is one of the elephants in the living room of this movement, and we are all being so careful to say as little as possible about it. I notice that Jesus did not mince words in the references cited by Mara. Right on, Mara. It needs saying.
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
No,laddie. It is nae “sidewalk” anything. If it walks like a duck, & talks like a duck, it’s most likely NOT a pregnant elephant, yean.